|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
Denver??? sorry out side of a rare blizzard here n there Denver is not a poor whether stadium in regards to kicks...there rarely is a wind of note and the Mile High atmosphere more than compensates the deflation of the ball due to the cold.
NE can be bad too as they get snow...but they are not kown for their wind. Wind is the #1 determent for kickers and QBs...hey might as well add Golfers to that list 
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 2,363 |
J/C EO
IMO Phil certainly wants a new contract, but his absence from the "voluntary" camps means nothing. He showed when he had to. Phil is getting up there in age, and has been kicking for quite a few years. I believe he probably skipped the "voluntary" stuff as a way to keep his leg fresh for the season.
I think he'll benefit from "resting " his leg a little before camp starts. As for Gift's opinion on his value, I agree somewhat, but over time he has been one of the bests. But I would agree, that replacing him wouldn't be that hard. He is a fan favorite, and that means folks will never want to let him go, even if he loses his accuracy. I was almost castigated for suggesting a few years ago that he needed replaced. I still think anyone expressing anything but praise for him will be attacked by his worshippers.
I want him to stay here, but the thought that there isn't a young kicker out there that could replace him is assinine.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,663
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,663 |
j/c
Dawson was the 20th highest paid kicker/punter last year with a $950,000 base and a $300,000 bonus. Dave Zastudil made more money than he did ($1.2 mil base w/ $200k bonus).
Not saying he should hold out, but he's worth more than that imo.
KeysDawg
The fact that some geniuses were laughed at does not imply that all who are laughed at are geniuses. - Carl Sagan
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165 |
Quote:
Denver??? sorry out side of a rare blizzard here n there Denver is not a poor whether stadium in regards to kicks
OK, if you say so..... I'm no expert on Broncos football though I thought I remembered some nasty weather there... But whatever....
Truth be told, Cleveland isn't all that bad of a place weather-wise for much of the season. September & October are almost always pretty nice (if not beautiful). Lately November hasn't had much teeth. That only leaves December and odds are we only have two home games in Dec on average....
I know someone will bring up the wind and it's a legit point; but, the wind in CBS is nothing like it was in Muni.
Not trying to paint it too pretty, in fact, I really wish we had MORE games like the Buffalo blizzard game. Kinda nice when those ice crystals start forming in your beer  .
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,802
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 1,802 |
You know, since Phil is actually my uncle...  Don't worry guys, I'm not gonna go CoachB on you and pretend to have inside access here. We just share the same last name. But on the serious, I really hope this gets taken care of and Phil is kicking in CBS in late December (and we're contending!)...
Politicians are puppets, y'all. Let's get Geppetto!
Formerly 4yikes2yoshi0
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,801
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,801 |
Those dumping on Phil (yet again) just don't get it.  You would be lucky to pick out another 5 NFL kickers who could have done what Phil has since he joined the Browns. Some of you guys would have bashed every Hall Of Fame player the Browns ever had if you would have been around when they were playing, so I really shouldn't be suprised.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 871
All Pro
|
|
All Pro
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 871 |
When all else fails, Matt Stover is still available.
"My opinions and feelings are mine and shall not be influenced by anyone....especially liberals."
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,037
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,037 |
Quote:
Those dumping on Phil (yet again) just don't get it. You would be lucky to pick out another 5 NFL kickers who could have done what Phil has since he joined the Browns. Some of you guys would have bashed every Hall Of Fame player the Browns ever had if you would have been around when they were playing, so I really shouldn't be suprised.
Does this mean that you support Phil's attempts to get a reworked deal done?
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
Quote:
Those dumping on Phil (yet again) just don't get it. You would be lucky to pick out another 5 NFL kickers who could have done what Phil has since he joined the Browns. Some of you guys would have bashed every Hall Of Fame player the Browns ever had if you would have been around when they were playing, so I really shouldn't be suprised.
Well,...I for one WAS "around" when a good majority of those HOF'ers played,...Phil Dawson doesn't hold a candle to what those men accomplished.
And go ahead and call it living in the past,...what has Phil Dawson actually gotten DONE ??
What has ANY "professional" Cleveland Brown gotten done since 1999 ??
Or 1964,...
Oh,...that's correct,...it's called NOTHING.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,931
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 30,931 |
Quote:
Quote:
Denver??? sorry out side of a rare blizzard here n there Denver is not a poor whether stadium in regards to kicks
OK, if you say so..... I'm no expert on Broncos football though I thought I remembered some nasty weather there...
Not that it matters, but Denver's winters are probably quite a bit milder than cleveland, chicago, buffalo, etc.
My brother lives there. Just as recently as 3 years ago he rode bike to work every day except maybe 4 - 5 days all winter. Temp's are warmer than you would expect also. They get snow, no doubt - but it's generally gone by the next day - aside from the few storms that make the national news.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Quote:
who cares about age? we've seen plenty of old kickers.
stover did well enough last season, is from the division so he kicked in all the same weather conditions. we wouldn't see a dropoff from stover.
You brought his age up, not me. You said he's running out of time in his career, then suggested we get a kicker that's 7 years his senior.
Quote:
Not sure how current this list is:
2009 NFL Free Agents
Place Kickers
Player Type 2008 Team
Rob Bironas UFA Titans
John Carney UFA Giants
Jay Feely UFA Jets
Shayne Graham UFA Bengals
Martin Gramatica UFA Saints
Jason Hanson UFA Lions
Mike Nugent UFA Jets
Matt Stover UFA Ravens
Any of those guys would be passable except maybe Gramatica. He seems like he should be 55 by now....
Gramatica is younger than Dawson.
And like dong said (though I don't know why he brought up Dawson's age as a factor then said that age doesn't matter), age is hardly the deciding factor in when a kicker hangs it up. Morton Andersen had the most accurate season of his career at age 47. The real point is that the kicker plays a huge part in a team's success, and excellent kickers come along once in a blue moon, yet we have people wanting to run our top-5 kicker out of town every single season because he wants to be paid like one of the best at his position.
Current NFL kickers I'd take over Phil Dawson:
Shayne Graham
Rob Bironas
Adam Vinatieri
David Akers maybe
Unfortunately, none of those guys are available. Signing a mediocre journeyman in his 40s or an unproven UDFA when we have question marks at enough other areas is foolish.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165 |
Quote:
and excellent kickers come along once in a blue moon, yet we have people wanting to run our top-5 kicker out of town every single season because he wants to be paid like one of the best at his position.
Dawson is a top-5 kicker? 
Did I miss something? How can he be considered even a top - 10 when none of his stats put him higher than 11th? By the time you average his production out he really strikes me at top - 20 and that's about it.
A few years back his numbers were better but last year was frankly mediocre.
What makes him top - 5 ? And please, not just "intangables".
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,044
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 2,044 |
Quote:
And like dong said (though I don't know why he brought up Dawson's age as a factor then said that age doesn't matter), age is hardly the deciding factor in when a kicker hangs it up.
i didn't bring up dawson's age, i hypothesized that dawson's leg isn't as fresh as it used to be and he recognizes this is his last shot at a contract with more guaranteed salary.
as you attributed to me, i don't feel age is a deciding factor. outside of the top 5 kickers, there just isn't that big a drop off between the rest of them. the argument that you can't go from dawson to a kicker who only kicked in miami or somewhere is a valid one but if you need a stopgap and went with someone like stover, you really wouldn't be able to tell the difference. it is because of that fact that dawson has no case and, from a priority perspective, does not get dibs/attention for a new contract.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
*LOL* .... i have never ever dumped on Phil ... I think he is under rated by most on here ... hes an OK kicker .. he can be counted on and does a decent job .. but I can name 5 kickers off the top of my head I'd take over Phil since he's been here .... and i can do it in a nano second .. here goes ..
Jason Elam ...
Adam Vinneteri ...
Matt Stover ... amazingly enough the gy just does it year in and year out ...
Ryan Longwell ...
John Kasay ...
theres 5 and I havent even had to think yet .. *L* ..
and to throw in comparisions to people under rating him (and i agree with U .. I like Phil .. he is very under rated by most) ... with our past HOFer's is truely a sign you've lost it bro ...
Phil is under rated around here ... no doubt ... and he gets ragged on and dumped on alot when he shouldn't .. but he is no more or no less than an average kicker .. hes reliable and dependable and be counted on but he is nuttin special ... somewhere in the 10 - 20 range when U take into account the entire ball of wax ...
and i can not believe i am about to say this .. but i have no probs with him holding our for more $$$ ... I used to be like Michelle and can understand and respect her stance .. but u know what ... if the team can cut U for under performance or what ever other reason they feel like it .. then that is not a truely binding contract IMO ... the gate needs to swing both ways ... and in the NFL it doesn't ...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
and excellent kickers come along once in a blue moon, yet we have people wanting to run our top-5 kicker out of town every single season because he wants to be paid like one of the best at his position.
Dawson is a top-5 kicker?
Did I miss something? How can he be considered even a top - 10 when none of his stats put him higher than 11th? By the time you average his production out he really strikes me at top - 20 and that's about it.
A few years back his numbers were better but last year was frankly mediocre.
What makes him top - 5 ? And please, not just "intangables".
As I've stated many times, Dawson is most certainly not a top-5 kicker. Rather, I place him in the top-third of the league, and when you have a kicker of that magnitude, you don't try and find a replacement.
He's very good, not great. I make my basis from historical data over the past five years.
Now does he deserve a raise? It's always a dicey game when it comes to evaluating contracts in the NFL. Because contracts are seemingly changed every year as it pertains to relation to a given players contemporaries, it's easy to say Dawson is underpaid. However, in terms of when he should be given a new contract, while factoring in the fact he's.......you know........a kicker.........I'd make him play for what he signed at this year, THEN evaluate whether or not he's worth new and more money.
Didn't we just have this discussion not too long ago? 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Quote:
Didn't we just have this discussion not too long ago?
We have this discussion every off-season. And then sometime in the regular season he shanks a field goal or has a kickoff that doesn't go into the endzone and people start saying "I told you we should've cut him in the offseason and brought in someone else". And then he hits field goals like the ones against Buffalo (a kick I don't think any other kicker in this league would make) or Baltimore, and all of the sudden everyone loves him to death, despite calling to axe him 2 months prior.
Yeah, he's "just a kicker'. He's also one of the better and more consistent kickers in the league, especially in a stadium with weather as bizarre as Cleveland's. Like I said earlier, I don't think a single other kicker in the NFL makes that kick he made against Buffalo two years ago. He knows how to kick in Cleveland better than anyone, and that makes him the best available kicker for the Browns. Last offseason everyone wanted to bring in Neil Rackers. Two years ago it was Mike Vanderjagt. Where are those people now? I guess they all want us to bring in Matt Stover this year, but if Stover still had it, he wouldn't have lost his job to a guy with a whopping 2 NFL field goal attempts.
At this point, and for the foreseeable future, we have a kicker who is the best possible available option for the Browns, and to just cut ties with him because he wants more money would be, as I said before, foolish. Now, if something were to happen like the Bengals not offering Shayne Graham a contract extension (they franchised him this year for $2.5 million) and we were to bring him in, I would have no problem with that, as he is probably a better kicker than Dawson and plays in similar climes. But bringing in some green rookie, or a 40+-year-old journeyman for vet minimum (which is, incidentally, only about $100k less than Dawson's salary) makes no sense, from a team or a financial standpoint.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165 |
Quote:
As I've stated many times, Dawson is most certainly not a top-5 kicker. Rather, I place him in the top-third of the league, and when you have a kicker of that magnitude, you don't try and find a replacement.
OK, I'm going to give you grief  since Adam isn't going to explain why Phil is a Top 5 i want you to explaing why you feel he's a Top -10.6 (1/3 of the league).
In 2008 PD finished 24th in percentage.
2007 he was tied for 12th/13th.
2006 he was 22nd.
2005 tied for 6th/7th/8th.
2004 tied for 8th -13th.
2003 he was 23rd.
Add them all together and Phil averages right about 16.5 . Over the past three years he averages 19.5 . Now the Browns aren't holding out for a pay cut - it's Phil that's holding out and inviting the scrutiny.
Phil hasn't cracked the Top 10 since 2005. He's on the verge of falling out of the Top 20. His numbers suggest decline.
In 2008 kickers dealing with similar bad weather finished ahead of him:
Carney/Giants
Gost/NE
Gould/CHI
Graham/Cinci
Reed/PIT
Feely/NYJ
And the only AFCN kicker to perform worse was Stover with 82% vs Dawson's 83%.
If Phil is resting his leg -fine  See you when camp starts. If he's really going to make an issue out of it I think he's in trouble.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,747
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,747 |
Quote:
He's the only player that has Browns ties to opening day 1999.
Does that mean something? It does to me.
It does to me too.
It means with Phil here, we have had 1 playoff appearance.
It means we have had 2 winning seasons 8 losing seasons.
It means we could have duplicated our team success since '99 with ANY kicker.
[b]USNavyDawg (Ret.) ![[Linked Image from i87.photobucket.com]](http://i87.photobucket.com/albums/k155/brownsfan4173/NFL-Football.jpg)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 5,521 |
Not sure where you're getting your stats from, but Phil was 2nd in 2005 behind Neil Rackers in FG%. And if FG% was the sole measure of whether a kicker is good or not, then your argument would hold water. Unfortunately, it isn't. You also have to consider, among other factors, the number of kicks a kicker attempts, since more attempts obviously means more chances to miss. In 2008, 6 kickers had more attempts. Four of them had higher FG% than Dawson, and five had more makes. So who is the better kicker...the guy who has 20 attempts and is 100%, or the guy who has 35 attempts and kicks 80%? Personally I'll take the latter any day of the week (unless the reason your kicker has only 20 attempts is because your team is constantly scoring touchdowns).
Phil hits the vast majority of the kicks he should hit, and a pretty decent amount of kicks that he shouldn't, all while playing half of his season in what is one of the most difficult kicking venues in the NFL. That's all you can ask for in a kicker. Beyond that, he's steady and consistent, not a flash-in-the-pan or a headcase like Rackers or Vanderjagt.
Every season this discussion crops up around here. It usually stops around the time people realize that he's not the reason the Browns have sucked for the last decade, and is, in fact, one of the few bright spots year in and year out.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 15,188 |
Gee ... lets just look at % and manipulate (lie) with just that % ... lets forget about DISTANCE ... cause .. thats not important ... lets forget about # of attempts ... oh wait ... one of u did manipulate(used to to make your phallacy of an argument look better) ... lets forget about weather ... lets forget about game situations ... end of half ... end of game ... cause well ... again . the % is all that matters ... and how many were blocked ... and why were they blocked ... again .. not a big deal casue we have the # STAT .. the only one that matters ... YO TOAD ... this is another prime example of why ...... drum roll please ... STATS ARE FOR LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!! folks take 1 stat and try and build a case around it ... ya ... great usage of stats ....
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 8,015 |
Quote:
YO TOAD ... this is another prime example of why ......
drum roll please ...
STATS ARE FOR LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
folks take 1 stat and try and build a case around it ... ya ... great usage of stats ....
Not quite accurate...........you SHOULD have said...........
LOSERS CAN'T UNDERSTAND STATS!!!!!!!!!!! (suffice it to say they aren't actually losers, just that aren't accurately interpreting or representing the stats.
% each of the last five years assuming a qualifying number of attempts (which is to say more than one  ) :
'08: 22nd
'07: 12th
'06: 26th
'05: 2nd
'04: 13th
A VERY rough average says he's 15th in the league over that time. Taking numerous factors into account, including durability as well as field conditions, and to me that puts him into the top-3rd of the league. Some guys like Stover don't kick the 55-yarders anymore, and some like John Karney don't even bother trying 50-yarders.
His one achilles-heal has always been the 40-49 yard field goal. That's the only thing keeping him from being a pro-bowl kicker, and why I say he's very good but not great.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165 |
Quote:
Gee ... lets just look at % and manipulate (lie) with just that % ...
lets forget about DISTANCE ... cause .. thats not important ...
lets forget about # of attempts ... oh wait ... one of u did manipulate(used to to make your phallacy of an argument look better) ...
lets forget about weather ...
lets forget about game situations ... end of half ... end of game ... cause well ... again . the % is all that matters ...
and how many were blocked ... and why were they blocked ... again .. not a big deal casue we have the # STAT .. the only one that matters ...
YO TOAD ... this is another prime example of why ......
drum roll please ...
STATS ARE FOR LOSERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
folks take 1 stat and try and build a case around it ... ya ... great usage of stats ....
If I were getting paid to do this and could work in a program a little friendlier than "text" I'd show you those categories too. But since this board is what it is, I'm somewhat forced to simplify and work off one or two general stats.
While generalized stats may not tell the whole truth they certainly give some indications of trending and overall performance. So quite crying " S A F L" everytime you see one you don't like  . We all know one or two categories aren't a complete and all inclusive report.
I've looked through most the other categories and Phil isn't exactly lighting it up there either. Most years he makes an average number of attempts from average distances. His numbers generally hover in the 13th-23rd range. It's not like something decisive is being omitted.
I wish there was a database with weather conditions. The way some of you talk you'd think there were all these games that the other team couldn't make FG's and Dawson is knocking them down... Other than the Buffalo snow game I don't remember that being the case. Feel free to refresh my memory if I've overlooked something.
Brown, Kelly, Graham, Dawson, & Newsome.......
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,801
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,801 |
Quote:
Does this mean that you support Phil's attempts to get a reworked deal done?
I have no problem with him getting a new deal done, AS LONG as he shows up at work and does his job, AND keeps it out of the press.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,801
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 27,801 |
Quote:
I've looked through most the other categories and Phil isn't exactly lighting it up there either. Most years he makes an average number of attempts from average distances. His numbers generally hover in the 13th-23rd range. It's not like something decisive is being omitted.
I wish there was a database with weather conditions. The way some of you talk you'd think there were all these games that the other team couldn't make FG's and Dawson is knocking them down... Other than the Buffalo snow game I don't remember that being the case. Feel free to refresh my memory if I've overlooked something.
The only thing over looked is that NONE of the stats can be accurate if weather conditions are not factored in. Phil has had to kick in bad weather conditions his whole career. So when comparing his stats to warm weather or dome kickers, that HAS to be taken into account.
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,438
Legend
|
|
OP
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,438 |
J/C
Parker Douglass looks like a decent prospect.
Kicked a 57 yarder and holds all his school records.
Kick-offs go to the endzone with a 4.2 - 4.4 hang time.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,276
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,276 |
GMDawg, I TRULY agree with your pecking here. I think it is atrociuos to do the dirty laundry on Main Street. by that I mean ALL negotiations until finalized should be kept out of the media. The media represent public opinions, a popularity contest. Fans are not well qualified to do the legality stuff. Going to that well for bad water only serves the agents (I question what an agent needing this kind of help to arrive at a a bargained agreement feels it adds to personal insecurity or inability to get a deal done without "fan blackmail" in effect leveraging the process). We have been generous to our own; in light of what we put on the field the last few, happy to have ANYONE left. This is his last deal, maybe. Under contract, meh. Take the money and go to werk. Any and all upside should involve earnable incentives. JMO 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 15,015 |
Quote:
Quote:
Those dumping on Phil (yet again) just don't get it. You would be lucky to pick out another 5 NFL kickers who could have done what Phil has since he joined the Browns. Some of you guys would have bashed every Hall Of Fame player the Browns ever had if you would have been around when they were playing, so I really shouldn't be suprised.
Well,...I for one WAS "around" when a good majority of those HOF'ers played,...Phil Dawson doesn't hold a candle to what those men accomplished.
And go ahead and call it living in the past,...what has Phil Dawson actually gotten DONE ??
What has ANY "professional" Cleveland Brown gotten done since 1999 ??
Or 1964,...
Oh,...that's correct,...it's called NOTHING.
Phil's about the only thing that kept us from getting shutout for the final 6 games last season. You think the past 9 years have been bad, or Jamal running 200+ yards on us in a game, try living down 6 straight shutouts.
Last edited by FloridaFan; 07/06/09 08:08 AM.
We don't have to agree with each other, to respect each others opinion.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 6,160 |
Quote:
"predicts that Phil Dawson will not kick for the Browns this season."
I know...and I love the trade we made getting rid of Rogers. Oh as well as the "disgruntled" BE...these guys even Shefter don't have a bead on our Browns.
Dawson, Ponti and Z have been working together for 3 seasons? Honestly, how much practice do they need together to be on track and ready for our first game.
Come Mid-August, I'll start worrying about it.
JMHO - but these guys predicting DOOM in Cleveland have been batting .000
Yeah, this is not something I'm sweating over right now.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,154
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 2,154 |
Here we go again with this stuff.
Guys. This is classic slow-time-of-the-year speculation. There are no other stories right now with the team so they have to fill up the pipe with something...anything.
The important facts for me are:
- He is getting older and most likely, working out on his own. I think he's earned that.
- He is getting older, he is a kicker under contract and has absolutely no leverage at all to demand anything other than a uniform to play in and maybe some nice cleats.
- He is getting older and knows that his earnings potential will soon be at a great disadvantage. He'd better maximize his pay while he can because he can't for much longer. Why not try? What's the worst that can happen?
Phil is a stand-up guy and very smart. And in the end, he has 2 options. He can come in a kick well, be a good teamate and a veteran leader and set himself up for his contract year OR he can sit out, appear like a guy with an attitude, and virtually end any chance that he has to play another season in the NFL.
A guy like Phil needs to keep playing. If he, at his age, sits out a season, I belive that it would signal the end of his playing shape. Or at least that's what a GM would think (IMO). That's exactly the opposite end result Phil is going for.
Nope. For me, this is nothing more than the same media fodder that shows up during the month of July every year.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165 |
Quote:
The only thing over looked is that NONE of the stats can be accurate if weather conditions are not factored in. Phil has had to kick in bad weather conditions his whole career. So when comparing his stats to warm weather or dome kickers, that HAS to be taken into account.
I completely agree - well sort of .
Bad weather is a huge factor - but let's not pretend he's kicking in Alaska. Every stadium in the NFL has pretty nice weather for half the regular season. So at worst, he's only kick in bad weather for half his career.
Plus, we play "away" games in Tennessee in December, or Miami, or Indy with a dome just like everyone else. Weather in those games isn't a factor. That really only leaves a potential of 25% of the games having nasty weather.
Having attended every home game since 2000 I can tell you there have been lots of beautiful Sundays in December for football. The weather is IMO only a factor about 10% of the time (so 1-2 games per year) roughly.
So I'm fine "grading on a curve" but only if the curve is 10-12% or so.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,543
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 43,543 |
Sunny days in december is one thing. Think about the swirling winds that are talked now and have been by just about ever kicker we've had or any that visited.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,465 |
It's not so much the snow but the swirling winds...the location of our stadium combined with it's design makes it very unique in the NFL...you ever been at CBS and seen the goalpost flags fluttering in opposite directions?
I think that's pretty neat.
I would agree with Toad's assertion that he's in the top 1/3...but factoring in where we play our home games...I'd say that he's a Top 5 guy for us, if that makes any sense...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165
Dawg Talker
|
|
Dawg Talker
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,165 |
Here's an older article from 2005 talking about the worst stadiums to have to kick in (CBS doesn't make the list): There is almost universal agreement about the worst stadiums: Giants Stadium in East Rutherford, N.J.; Gillette Stadium in Foxboro, Mass.; Heinz Field in Pittsburgh; Ralph Wilson Stadium in Orchard Park, N.Y.; Soldier Field in Chicago; and Lambeau Field in Green Bay, Wis. Denver is surprisingly good, because the thin air at that altitude helps the ball travel farther. Miami is surprisingly difficult, because it can be windy, and when the final weeks of the baseball season overlap with the start of the N.F.L. season, a kicker may have to plant his foot on the infield dirt where the Florida Marlins play. Still, a great kicker can overcome the most horrible conditions, and a terrible kicker can drag down a percentage in the most idyllic situation. According to the Elias Sports Bureau, among current N.F.L. stadiums, the highest field-goal percentage since 2000 is at Ford Field (87.4) in Detroit, then the Louisiana Superdome (87.1) in New Orleans and the Edward Jones Dome (85.7) in St. Louis - all climate-controlled paradises. The highest percentage at an open-air stadium since 2000 is at M&T Bank Stadium, the home of the Baltimore Ravens (fourth over all at 84.6 percent), which benefits from a relatively temperate climate, and Matt Stover, a career 82.4 percent kicker. The worst are three stadiums built on lakes or rivers, a particular bugaboo of kickers because the combination of wind and heavier, moist air means a kick is unlikely to sail as far: Soldier Field (69.4); Alltel Stadium (70.7) in Jacksonville, Fla.; and Heinz Field (72.0), at which a field-goal attempt of more than 48 yards has never been converted. Ralph Wilson Stadium is at 80.8. Giants Stadium is 78.4 percent, in the middle of the pack. And Gillette Stadium is at 75.5, a better percentage than Arizona's Sun Devil Stadium, which may have as much to do with the Patriots' kicker as anything else. Adam Vinatieri booted what is regarded by his peers as one of the greatest bad-weather field goals in N.F.L. history: a 45-yarder during a snowstorm that tied an American Football Conference playoff game in 2002 with 27 seconds left. The Patriots went on to win that game and the Super Bowl, and the photograph immortalizing Vinatieri's kick adorns the walls of several of his peers around the league, including Moorman. Which does not mean that Vinatieri does not have issues with stadium conditions. That kick was made in Foxboro Stadium, and Vinatieri looks back fondly at the relic, because the wind moved steadily through its two open ends. Gillette Stadium is a bowl, with one open end that is sliced in half by a scoreboard and a lighthouse. It is a kicker's nightmare, creating something called the Venturi effect, in which wind that is funneled through a constricted space - like the open end of a stadium - increases in velocity. To make things worse, Gillette Stadium has a grass field, which baffles Vinatieri. "There are a bunch of concerts, and the grass by November is a natural dirt field," he said. "Buffalo is a difficult place to kick, but they at least have artificial turf. You don't have to worry about footing. Numerous times I've joked about it, but I don't think my vote counts." Ron Labinski was the project designer for Kivett and Myers, the design architects of Giants Stadium, and he later founded HOK, the stadium designer. Now retired, he explains how architects and designers build scale models of stadiums and put them through wind-tunnel tests to assess their structural integrity. But that is to make sure a building will withstand high winds. "We do not do it to see what the effects are for kickers," Labinski said with a laugh. "They're paid enough money to deal with it." Labinski and his design group anticipated how difficult the wind conditions at the bowl-shaped Giants Stadium would be when it opened in 1976. There, the flags atop the stadium usually blow in one direction, while the wind at field level, after bouncing off one end, blows the opposite way. That explains why the Giants signed a strong-legged place-kicker like Jay Feely, who has enough power to kick through the wind. Feely is the player who once sat for a half-hour watching the sprinkler blow at Giants Stadium, and he said he believed that the installation of FieldTurf (which replaced a tray-based grass field) at the stadium several years ago greatly enhanced the footing. But on game days, you will still find Mike Westhoff, the Jets' special teams coach, calling the wind direction for his players each time the Jets line up for a field goal or a punt. The wind is particularly tricky for punters, whose kicks soar so high they catch the wind going in both directions. "The key is to get it up into it and let it help you, not to fight it," Westhoff said. "It almost always blows at a 45-degree angle into one of the corners, you just have to catch it at that angle." In high winds, Moorman, the Buffalo punter, holds on to the ball a bit longer before he drops it toward his foot for the punt, to minimize by seconds how long the ball is untouched in the air by a hand or foot. Feagles, who also holds for Feely, watches carefully when the ball is snapped, because he has seen it blown several feet in the few yards it travels between snap and kick. Jeff Reed, the Pittsburgh kicker, wears the longest cleats allowed - three-quarters of an inch - and studies Vinatieri's approach in bad weather, taking smaller steps to improve his footing, which has been a problem at Heinz Field since it opened in 2001. Because Heinz Field is used by the University of Pittsburgh, too, the grass wears away quickly. "My first game was Week 10 of 2002," Reed said. "At halftime, we had a steamroller roll it - that was the only way to keep it firm. There was no grass left. It was all wet sand." Reed went to college at North Carolina and speaks dreamily of the ideal kicking conditions there. But, in fact, he may owe his job to the horrors of Heinz. "Kris Brown played the first year here," Reed said of his predecessor, who made only 68.2 percent of his field goals at Heinz Field in 2001, but is a career 76.7 percent field-goal kicker. "He opted to go to the Texans." Smart man. Reliant Stadium has a roof. Worst Stadiums to Kick in NY Times
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 17,850 |
Quote:
According to the Elias Sports Bureau, among current N.F.L. stadiums, the highest field-goal percentage since 2000 is at Ford Field (87.4) in Detroit, then the Louisiana Superdome (87.1) in New Orleans and the Edward Jones Dome (85.7) in St. Louis - all climate-controlled paradises. The highest percentage at an open-air stadium since 2000 is at M&T Bank Stadium, the home of the Baltimore Ravens (fourth over all at 84.6 percent), which benefits from a relatively temperate climate, and Matt Stover, a career 82.4 percent kicker.
This could have been a useful statistic, instead the writer botches it.
He should have used "visiting kicker FG%" to give a more accurate take of the stadium effect. Due to unbalanced schedules, this still would not have been perfect, but much better than utilizing one that is largely biased towards how good the home team kicker has been.
The saddest part was that he caught it (mentioning how Stover is an accurate kicker which played into Baltimore's high number), but didn't catch an easy way to adjust it.
#gmstrong
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 14,248 |
Quote:
According to the Elias Sports Bureau, among current N.F.L. stadiums, the highest field-goal percentage since 2000
Those stats are going to be skewed ... against our defenses, most field goal attempts by other teams would either be extra points or from inside the 10.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 40,399 |
Rishuz, I lean more toward agreeing with Michelle in this case, Phil has been in the league for what, 11 years? This isn't his first contract.
I might agree that a player should expect a renegotiation if he was a 5th round pick and ends up in the pro-bowl his first 2 seasons.... even then, he should request a renegotiation, not threaten a hold out. In general, I think most teams would be willing to renegotiate in that case.... but Phil, Phil has been pretty much consistently the same for 11 years, which includes the last contract he signed.... why does he think he's worth more than his current contract now? because other guys are signing bigger contracts? That's life, he should have insisted on bigger escalators back then.
yebat' Putin
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Those dumping on Phil (yet again) just don't get it. You would be lucky to pick out another 5 NFL kickers who could have done what Phil has since he joined the Browns. Some of you guys would have bashed every Hall Of Fame player the Browns ever had if you would have been around when they were playing, so I really shouldn't be suprised.
Well,...I for one WAS "around" when a good majority of those HOF'ers played,...Phil Dawson doesn't hold a candle to what those men accomplished.
And go ahead and call it living in the past,...what has Phil Dawson actually gotten DONE ??
What has ANY "professional" Cleveland Brown gotten done since 1999 ??
Or 1964,...
Oh,...that's correct,...it's called NOTHING.
Phil's about the only thing that kept us from getting shutout for the final 6 games last season. You think the past 9 years have been bad, or Jamal running 200+ yards on us in a game, try living down 6 straight shutouts.
If, in those final six games we had had a chance of making a playoff run, then you're right on,...
To say we didn't have 6 straight shutouts is because of Phil Dawson,...well, go ahead and divvy out the potatoes any way you like,...they're still mashed.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,027 |
this is incredibly stupid.
josh cribbs doesn't get what he wants, but phil dawson wants his?
mangini and kokinis shouldn't even flinch.
dawson is great, top 5 at what he does. but it's not gonna make or break our chances at becoming a contender.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149
Legend
|
|
Legend
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 9,149 |
I know I have most probably been misinterpreted as a Phil-basher in this thread, and if so, then I deserve it. I do not mean to bash Dawson at all,...I would like to keep him around, he's a solid performer---but compared to what the rest of the NFL accomplishes while we stagger in stupidity is not worthy of a raise for ANYONE on this football team. I don't care what his stats do or don't say, don't care about the weather in Cleveland and don't care what his away FG% is. The big reason Phil Dawson is so credible is because the rest of the offense has been pitiful now for 10 years. Period.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728
Hall of Famer
|
|
Hall of Famer
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 3,728 |
We don't have a gaggle of above average players on this team.
Dawson is one of them.
It means something to me that the guy has been around for a decade.
That is all.
|
|
|
DawgTalkers.net
Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Browns headed for standoff with
Dawson??
|
|
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/Heldawg/rgiii2.jpg)