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If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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Can't really expect a guy to remain on the team forever...
Even though I think he deserves whatever money he thinks he should get...
But I believe the same for Cribbs as well...
If Cribbs doesn't get his contract.. why should Dawson?
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I still don't think NFL players should cry about their contract when they AGREED to it in the first place. Up for renewal is one thing, but during the contract....screw 'em.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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I believe there are several guys that could immediately replace him and produce similarly.
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Quote:
I believe there are several guys that could immediately replace him and produce similarly.
I Believe people have know idea how good Phill is. He is one of the best in the League.
Joe Thomas #73
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Clutch kicker or not, contracts talks with a kicker? Phil has gone and got Diva on us.
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Legend
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Quote:
I still don't think NFL players should cry about their contract when they AGREED to it in the first place. Up for renewal is one thing, but during the contract....screw 'em.
I used to feel this way but I'm not sure anymore.
I don't know what you do for a career, but would it bother you if you had more experience than your co-workers, did better quality work, and made less than everyone else? Would you go to the boss and plead your case insisting that you needed a raise EVEN THOUGH YOU AGREED to your starting salary? If the boss said "pound sand", would you quit and go to another job? I think the quitting and going to another job is synonymous with holding out. When you look at it from that perspective, are they really any different than us?
I think people get bent out of shape about this because the money is magnified and they are "playing a game". But everyone wants to be paid what they think they are worth ... in football, basketball, medicine, engineering, etc., etc. And they are going to compare their value to the nearest co-worker and their accomplishments. It's just human nature.
Then you have the non-guaranteed contracts. And then when you add in the brutality of the game and the very high risk that each game could be your last ... well, that's much different than what most of us do.
I just think it's very hard to judge these guys without being in their shoes. I can see both sides of it.
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Quote:
I believe there are several guys that could immediately replace him and produce similarly.
Highly unlikely. Who you got in mind?
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Dawson will cave.
If faced with the prospect of sitting out the entire year or showing up, he'll show. He's in his mid-30's and signed through 2010. He has zero leverage.
He'll come around.
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Quote:
I don't know what you do for a career, but would it bother you if you had more experience than your co-workers, did better quality work, and made less than everyone else? Would you go to the boss and plead your case insisting that you needed a raise EVEN THOUGH YOU AGREED to your starting salary?
No, I wouldn't. I would kick myself for agreeing to a bad deal, ask nicely for a raise, and not cry when I didn't get one. I certainly wouldn't "not show up" for work because I was pouting.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Legend
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You might "not show up" for work, but you could always seek employment somewhere else ... on your own ... they wouldn't have you trapped into staying.
And unless you are independently wealthy, not showing up wouldn't really be an option, would it? These guys probably have enough money to last the for a little while, but I really don't think that's the point. It's about fairness. When they feel slighted - right or wrong - they have very little they can do about it. When we feel slightly, we have many more options.
And no, I don't believe for a second that you would work a job where you felt underpaid and underappreciated without doing something about it. That would be miserable, and no one wants to be miserable.
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That's fine...you are welcome to believe about me what you wish. Fact is, you have no idea what I would do. If I'm dumb enough to sign a contract, I will honor it, then move on. Sounds like Phil could do just that in 2010. To each their own.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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Quote:
I still don't think NFL players should cry about their contract when they AGREED to it in the first place. Up for renewal is one thing, but during the contract....screw 'em.
Standard response: if teams can cut a guy at any time, players ought to be able to ask for more money at any time.
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](http://i.imgur.com/GmuEd.gif) "One man's Bum is another man's Hobo" - Waterdawg
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Quote:
Standard response: if teams can cut a guy at any time, players ought to be able to ask for more money at any time.
And that is very true. If a team isn't honorable, screw 'em.  Though I doubt Phil was going to be cut.
#gmstrong #gmlapdance
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j/c phil can feel his leg getting heavier and knows he doesn't have much time left. this is his last shot at a new contract. as much as we can appreciate how clutch/consistent he's been, he's a freaking kicker. no disrespect but we can get plenty of people who can come in, learn the system  , and produce with little to no drop off. one guy that comes to mind: matt stover. dawson has no case.
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Stover is 7 years older than Dawson...
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who cares about age? we've seen plenty of old kickers.
stover did well enough last season, is from the division so he kicked in all the same weather conditions. we wouldn't see a dropoff from stover.
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Quote:
Quote:
I believe there are several guys that could immediately replace him and produce similarly.
Highly unlikely. Who you got in mind?
Every FA kicker and most of the rookies I'm not trying to say there aren't some bad kickers out there; but, the position produces similar numbers uniformly throughout the league. Some benefit from better offense, defenses, or altitude, but year after year both guys that are "too old" and rookies put up quality numbers.
I'd be perfectly happy keeping Phil, I might even discuss a raise if he really is underpaid. In the end though he's a place kicker that's really good from 40 & in. Most are.
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Not sure how current this list is:
2009 NFL Free Agents
Place Kickers
Player Type 2008 Team
Rob Bironas UFA Titans
John Carney UFA Giants
Jay Feely UFA Jets
Shayne Graham UFA Bengals
Martin Gramatica UFA Saints
Jason Hanson UFA Lions
Mike Nugent UFA Jets
Matt Stover UFA Ravens
Any of those guys would be passable except maybe Gramatica. He seems like he should be 55 by now....
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For the record I agreee with everything being said about Phil being replaceable, however...
From the flip side of the coin, no one knows how valuable a player at a certain position is until you have someone awful doing it.
Take the Cowboys for instance...When they let go of Cundiff (who was serviceable) for Vanderjagt, everything seemed kosher for them. Then Vanderjagt flamed out and they had 3 years of awful kicking til they found Folk. Same thing for the Chiefs and the Giants...
Ya never know what you have until you have something awful instead.
Phil won me over in the Buffalo game at home, and again in the Buffalo game on the road...so for Phil to go...I'd be very very sad...However, if we found a serviceable replacement...like this Parker something guy we have on the roster now, and he plays fine...then ok, bye Phil, I'm sad youre gone, but oh well
"It has to start somewhere
It has to start somehow
What better place than here?
What better time than now?"
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Here's last year's "Dawson Wants a New Contract" thread for comparison's sake: Sept 12, 2008 Dawson wants new deal
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How hard could it be to kick extra points?
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Legend
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Hmmmm. Time for changing of the Old Guard? If his contract is up, that is one thing; but if he is IN contract, what changed? However, he did represent the only scoring threat last season. Enough crap already. 
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Legend
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Here is the complete comment Peen referred to: Quote:
Based on what he's hearing, NFL insider Adam Schefter predicts that Phil Dawson will not kick for the Browns this season.
Pushing for a new contract, Dawson has been skipping voluntary workouts all offseason. With no resolution in sight, Schefter expects to see a "standoff" between the two sides later this summer. The Browns signed rookie free agent kicker Parker Douglass but could eventually turn to an available veteran such as Matt Stover or John Carney. Jul. 2 - 6:13 pm et
Question, isn't Dawson under contract? I believe so, so he kicks here or he sits.. He's not going to sit out.
Second, while he skipped all the Voluntary stuff, he was here for the mandatory stuff.
I really believe we are seeing this because it's a slow NFL News week.
He'll be here when camp starts.. That doesn't mean he won't get beat out by someone they bring in to compete. But he'll be here when camp opens.. I'm sure of it.
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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kickers may all put up fairly similar numbers, but we *know* phil dawson can make some extremely difficult kicks in some pretty severe weather because we've seen him do some amazing things. THAT, if i were in charge, is reason enough to give him a little more money than some of the other kickers around who we could bring in and they may not be able to make those kinds of kicks that help win games.
"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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Legend
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His experience kicking in rough weather is a plus... He knows his stuff when it comes to kicking that ball through the uprights.
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Dawson is a great kicker because our offense couldn't do anything else. How many times have the Browns been to the playoffs because of Phil Dawson ??
Thank you.
Count up the chokes while we're counting his "ability to kick in bad weather."
Who cares; get another kicker.
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Quote:
kickers may all put up fairly similar numbers, but we *know* phil dawson can make some extremely difficult kicks in some pretty severe weather because we've seen him do some amazing things. THAT, if i were in charge, is reason enough to give him a little more money than some of the other kickers around who we could bring in and they may not be able to make those kinds of kicks that help win games.
Phil was 24th in the NFL last year for "percentage made".
His longest kick was 56 yards. You have to drop to 29th to find a kicker that didn't have one 50 or longer.
He made 83% of his attempts from 40-49 tieing him for 11th.
He made 50% of his attempts that were over 50 yards tieing him for 23rd.
He made 86% of his attempts from 30-39 tieing him for 23rd.
I just don't see anything that can't be replaced. I understand some of his numbers are impaired due to kicking in Cleveland in December..... still he's not really blowing my doors off.
Lots of his stats seem to put him in the lower third of the NFL.... Not sure that's grounds for a raise. 
Dawson's Not So Killer Stats
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"All I know is, as long as I led the Southeastern Conference in scoring, my grades would be fine." - Charles Barkley
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Kicking in Cleveland is very comparable to kicking in Pittsburgh. Which is completely uncomparable to kicking in Indy or Minny or any other dome. The swirling winds, the slippery plant leg, the cold. It's a skill that he knows well now.
He's the only player that has Browns ties to opening day 1999.
Does that mean something? It does to me.
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Legend
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"predicts that Phil Dawson will not kick for the Browns this season."
I know...and I love the trade we made getting rid of Rogers. Oh as well as the "disgruntled" BE...these guys even Shefter don't have a bead on our Browns.
Dawson, Ponti and Z have been working together for 3 seasons? Honestly, how much practice do they need together to be on track and ready for our first game.
Come Mid-August, I'll start worrying about it.
JMHO - but these guys predicting DOOM in Cleveland have been batting .000
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I highly doubt a standoff happens. Nothing has even been said publicly. I think its some more sci-fi reporting during an offseason. Dawson will be kicking for us come Sept trust me. He has ZERO leverage here.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Legend
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The only way is if Mangini loves Nugent a local hero with OSU??? and of course an ex-jet still on the FA list???
But to be honest with you...if he did so - we would have signed him already and traded Dawson to Parcells who always is looking for a FG kicker or any number of playoff team missing that needed ingredient!
Not going to happen. Dawson is ours, Like Cribbs maybe we negotiate next off season - in Dawson's case before his lame duck season on his current contract...but not with multiple seasons still on the contract.
JMHO
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I didnt know Nugget was a FA, he was a draft pick for them wasn't he? One of the best college kickers I have ever seen, too much talent to not get another shot somewhere.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Second round of the 2005 draft with the #47 pick overall. Mangini was only a Jet for 2006-08 though if I'm remembering correctly.
So not an EM pick.
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Legend
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Quote:
I didnt know Nugget was a FA, he was a draft pick for them wasn't he? One of the best college kickers I have ever seen, too much talent to not get another shot somewhere.
Nugent is not a FA...I thought I remembered him signing somewhere and, in fact, he is a Buc.
http://www.nfl.com/players/mikenugent/profile?id=NUG461506
His problem is that he's been hurt too much, which is never what you want in your kicker because then you have to carry 2.
#gmstrong
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Yeah, sounds about right. Had trouble with accuracy in the pros if I remember correctly.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Quote:
Kicking in Cleveland is very comparable to kicking in Pittsburgh. Which is completely uncomparable to kicking in Indy or Minny or any other dome. The swirling winds, the slippery plant leg, the cold. It's a skill that he knows well now.
He's the only player that has Browns ties to opening day 1999.
Does that mean something? It does to me.
Cold and outdoors is a tough way to kick, no doubt about it. How many teams/kickers face the same challenge?
Bills
Patriots
Browns
Steelers
GB
Jets
Giants
Broncos
Eagles
Bears
That's about a third of the league. And even the warm weather teams play away games in cold outdoor stadiums and bad weather.
I'm in no hurry to replace Dawson, but if he wants to force the situation I'd like to sign some real competition sooner than later.
As far as being tied to the 1999 team, that doesn't really do anything for me other than he's familiar with CBS, Heinz, etc...
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Quote:
As far as being tied to the 1999 team, that doesn't really do anything for me other than he's familiar with CBS, Heinz, etc...
Means something to me, I like to see players stay with their teams. Brings something special to them, besides I like rooting for a long tenured player and would love to Dawson stay for winning playoff team.
"The medium for the bad news was ESPN, which figured. The network represents much of what is loud, obnoxious and empty in sports today."
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Legend
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Second round of the 2005 draft with the #47 pick overall. Mangini was only a Jet for 2006-08 though if I'm remembering correctly.
So not an EM pick.
I'm pretty sure that was the beginning of the end for Herm Edwards.
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