Not much to talk about so I am going back to the well.
Of all the players on the roster Baker has been dissected the most.
I am not going to pull up stats. If you want that it is always available. Very easy to to look at his numbers.
Baker is starting his fourth season. He has a great supporting cast. We have the highest rated OL and running back duo. That should help any quarterback.
We have experience, depth, and talent at wide receiver and at tight end.
The Browns have spent this past season upgrading the defense. They have yet to play a game. However, they are also highly ranked even though they have not played.
I think we should expect that with the defensive upgrades that the offense will get more oppoutunities to score. More three and outs and more turnovers.
So, what remains for Baker to do?
In my eyes he has proven that he is a franchise quarterback. Last year we won a playoff game on the road.
Quarterback greatness is defined by playing great when it counts most. Baker took the Browns to playoffs. We had a winning season. The team is now considered to be a Super Bowl contender. Repeat that three times and then pinch yourself.
Baker is now an experienced player who should be in his prime.
It is now time to be big on the biggest stage.
Those moments that make you great. The Elway drive. I know that is a sacrilegious analogy. However, I wanted to drive in the point.
This year should be the year Baker puts all doubts to rest.
Stats are nice but winning is the ultimate measure. Win the biggest games with a great performance when counts the most.
"Pressure is a blessing" Billie Jean King once said.
No pressure Baker. You have wanted this moment all your life.
I was thinking about this on my run yesterday. They’ve done a superb job of building up the rest of the team now, making it so that the QB doesn’t have to hero-ball to win games. We’ll probably win some sloppy games this year that we would have gotten trounced in years past.
That said, this team’s ultimate success has probably never depended more on Baker consistently showing up as the guy in the 2nd half of last season. Everything else is pretty much there.
The two things that run the greatest risk of derailing the team are a rash of key injuries and Baker falling apart for any real stretch of games. We know we’ll have some injuries, every team does, but we pray it doesn’t go over the depth threshold/ tipping point. And we know Baker will have some so-so or iffy games but we have to hope it’s not 2-3-4 games in a row. That is one of the key markers of elite QBs. They all have crap games on occasion, do they bounce back, is their default level significantly above mediocre such that they don’t have to “over-achieve” to have an excellent games? I’m a Baker supporter all the way but I’m not sure that question has been answered yet. We need an almost full season well above the midline.
I agree with all of that. Hopefully if we build a 3 TD lead in the 3rd quarter of games this year, with our revamped defense, I won't be thinking, "We still need to score at least 2 more times".. because that's what I was thinking last year against TN and against Dallas.. and probably a couple others. and in most cases, I was right as we ended up needing to recover onside kicks to secure those games that we should have won with the back-ups on the field for the final few minutes.
As for Baker specifically, assuming he just plays the way he did last year, even without much improvement at all, he's a franchise QB and the only thing left for him to accomplish is he needs to close. As you said, he needs to notch a few of those career-defining moments and he has to do it in the biggest games.
He has a playoff win under his belt. Albeit, it was against a very depleted and vulnerable Steelers team. Then we lost to a KC team with Chad freaking Henne playing most of the second half.
Games like that, it's about finishing. If you finish and win, you get credit for overcoming a 19-3 halftime deficit. If you don't win, you get blamed for only scoring 3 points in the first 2 1/2 quarters.
I think the way that Baker ended the year pretty much ended any of the "hot seat" conversations that were going on, so (for me) he really just needs to more or less pick up where he left off from last year, and just overall avoid yo-yo'ing between years over the course of the year.
I don't see the need to expect such drastic improvement as we've seen, but we do need to avoid drastic step backwards in play at the QB position.
Baker is in a great position because of the talent surrounding him and the scheme and adaptability of Stefanski's offense. Baker's floor is solid, and pretty high.
Do we need Baker to push the ceiling to new heights in order to compete for a championship? No, not at all, especially if what we saw in the second half of 2020 is indicative of his growth.
Mayfield became a good QB in 2020, some may say "very good", again, especially looking at the second half. He made great strides in working through progressions, being patient, not getting "happy feet" as soon as his primary read(s) were covered. I saw a QB capable of throwing to receivers one through four on the majority of his late-season dropbacks.
We don't need a QB that puts a team on his shoulders week after week, but we need one capable of that when the situation dictates. I'm not worried about Baker in that manner, he's proven that he is capable and willing.
Baker needs to become more consistent. He's 30th in the league in completion percentage, yet we've seen games where he completes 12, 15, even 20 throws in a row. I really hope that the chemistry with OBJ comes naturally and isn't forced (again). Psychologically, Baker needs to treat OBJ as "JAG" and just let the chemistry develop within the confines of solid offensive execution.
A few more game-winning drives and 4th Q comebacks will cement his confidence. He's got all the tools and everything needed "upstairs". Should be an exciting season -- and one that has Baker perfectly positioned to round out his perception at somewhere between "solid franchise QB" and "legend"... without feeling the weight of the world on his shoulders in order to do so. Seems like that would be any QBs dream scenario.
As a fan, I'll take great pride in riding shotgun with the dude who was told he couldn't do it his entire life. That story couldn't be any more "Cleveland".
I think having expectations isn't something I fall into the trap of. To me that means you have your sights set on something happening. Expecting something to happen. I have hopes of things happening yet at the same time I don't expect it.
By looking at the second half of last season there's no reason not to hope things pick up where they left off. The offense was clicking on all cylinders. I think we have a HC and system in place that the players believe in and buy into. The talent is certainly there. I believe we have a FO that works with the HC in manner that they bring the talent into the system that best serves to fit what the coaching staff needs to execute their systems.
So for me the question isn't whether Baker will perform well. I think he's already shown he works well in the system that has been established. The continuity that has been established going into its second season should only bolster his performance.
The only question is what is Bakers ceiling? I have no clue how high that could go but by all accounts we're going to find out.
KS made a clear point to Baker before last season. You have to protect the ball. Turnovers will not be tolerated.
Baker made the change and he cut way down on int's.
That was critical for his success going forward.
Completion % can be misleading to a degree. Yes, you would like 65%+. I don't get to hung up there because sometimes a good play is made when you throw it in the stands.
What is important is clutch play. Making big time NFL throws when games are on the line.
IMO Baker will get there. There is a fine line between getting that ball in there in tight coverage; and taking the check down or throwing it away.
To be great sometimes you have to make those throws.
Baker has the skills to make any throw. It is that split second decision that can make huge differences. You can have great numbers checking it down. But it takes a special talent to make those truly great throws. I believe Baker is an emerging talent.
I am hoping this year he leads this team to greatness.
I'm hoping he sticks with the trajectory that was in place at the second half of last season, based upon building confidence, become more comfortable in the system, and realizing that he can trust his reads on not focus on the first read or a single player.
Looking back, this is what I drew from his time in Cleveland:
2018. Got off to a good start. Defenses didn't really know what to expect. Then he took a bit of a downturn playing against more stiff competition. Add to that the fact that he suffered from Haley Jackson squabbling, which bled into the game planning and playcalls. Dorsey cleans house. Kitchens comes in and simplifies the offense big time. Baker does better.
2019. Kitchens takes over as HC, but keeps playcalling. Can't find consistency between game planning and playcalling. That hurts Baker. Baker also begins to lock on to OBJ, which might be tied to the fact the playcalling didn't follow the game planning. More dysfunction. Baker regresses.
2020. Stefanski comes in and doesn't have a feel for Baker yet. COVID offseason doesn't help either. Baker still plays in 2019 mode, with some strides because Stefanski puts him in a more comfortable offense. Still has some confidence issues and locks in too early. The team keeps winning, however, and Baker builds confidence as Stefanski keeps figuring out how to build a sustainable offense that suits Baker. This happens continuously (outside of the Jets aberration). This is the trajectory I hope stays in place.
Baker suffered a lot from turnover and snowballing regression which led to confidence issues. I'm hoping that the current stability, supporting talent, and consistency in offense keeps him on the improvement path.
But that is kinda shocking. One would think Mahomes would be the favorite every year.
I actually believe Myles has a good chance. One because he will put the numbers and two because it has been a long time since a defensive player has won.
I could see Baker though. There are others as well.
We keep talking about winning the Playoff Game on the road. My question is, did we win that game, or did the Steelers lose it ?? They seemed to come back well after unforced errors put them in the hole. Yes, I know the Defense looks good on paper, but will they play like an improved Defense against better competition this year. I just want to see more before I start harping about beating the Steelers and being Superbowl Bound.
They had some unforced errors in that game, but I think a lot of the comeback had to do with our soft defense, not to mention the fact we were starting guys who might not even be in the NFL next year at DB.
I don't think there were many unforced errors on their part as far as our offense goes. Hunt simply dominated them on those two TD's and Landry did the same. Our OL was also abusing their pass rush and run support defense.
Whoever that backup OLB was for the Steelers had his lunch eaten by Teller on several pulls.
How do Stefanski's expectations play into this, I mean if the offense struggles, or totally putters out, A coach will have had a year to work with the same resources, the same major players.
There was the first snap of the game, for sure. Otherwise, I think our D capitalized on their guys looking clunky after a week off. Steelers were the ones that decided that sitting Ben, Pouncey, etc was the right move.
well, make no mistake.. when we face them for the first game in 2021, they will be wanting to make a statement, AND their defense won't likely be so decimated as it was in that game. It WILL be a different animal; that beatdown isn't likely to be happening, again.
I still think we win, but just noting that there were several anomalies at play in that game beyond just their offensive errors early on.
The big picture has been covered pretty well by other posters. Mayfield is an ascending talent, the Browns have plenty of offensive firepower. The team will benefit from continuity for the first time in a long time. Mayfield has the mindset and the talent to be great and will have the opportunity to progress toward that goal individually and within the team.
So...I have a couple of things I want to see Baker continue to improve. 1) Use more touch on the slants and other underneath passes. I think he can improve in this area. 2) Continue to be settled in the pocket under pressure.
well, make no mistake.. when we face them for the first game in 2021, they will be wanting to make a statement, AND their defense won't likely be so decimated as it was in that game. It WILL be a different animal; that beatdown isn't likely to be happening, again.
I still think we win, but just noting that there were several anomalies at play in that game beyond just their offensive errors early on.
And those are the games you have to win in order to become a good-to-great team in the league. When the other team wants vengeance badly, but you beat them anyhow. It can really deflate the former team, too, as we all know from ample experience.
I’m hoping to see the Qb that we saw the 2nd half of last year. That should be his floor at this point IMO. Limiting TO’s, keeping us in good situations, being accurate, and very importantly: continuing to improve under pressure.
I also think it’s important to see him improve WITH OBJ. That’s huge
Baker has finally a 2nd season in the same Offense, coaching staff and players.
Just look at Baker after half the season last year in the same offense with players.
TD: 11 INT: 1 %: 64 Yds: 2,049 W: 6 L: 2
And its only going to get better as they all understand the offense better and will make space for execution of plays!
And its not about just % in accuracy its where he puts the ball. More than any other QB he gets that ball right into the hands at the perfect spots so that the RB/WR/TE can continue without hesitation at all.
The Defense will be a work in progress until mid season. Too many new players.
Hopefully the offense will carry the load.
With the intelligence the players they signed seem to possess, I don't see why they can't come out firing from the start. Getting players in the right position and getting the calls right is the hurdle, after that, it's the talent that makes it work. They brought in two players on the defense that excel in that area, Johnson and Walker. I tend to agree with Myles that it won't take long.
Mike Tannenbaum a former horrible GM who will never get that job again. Is now a clueless "analyist."
When asked about contract extensions for Lamar and Baker. Said "sign Lamar. Don't sign Baker. Watch and see and maybe sign him in two years."
He also said Baker's skills are "replaceable."
Lamar is a better runner. He is not a better quarterback.
Baker went to the Browns in 2018. The Browns record in 2017 was 0-16. Baker's Head coach in 2018 was Hue and the OC was Haley.
Then the head coach became Greg Williams OC was Freddy. The record for 2018 7-8-1. Baker sets the NFL rookie record for TD's.
2019 Head coach Freddy and the OC Todd Monkin. Record was 6-10.
What a way to start a career with a team. Going to a team that was winless. Then having 3 head coaches and three OC's. That alone could be a career killer.
So 2020 fourth head coach and OC. They win 12 games with a playoff win on the road against the Steelers.
And over the last nine games Baker played as well as any quarterback.
And this knucklehead thinks Baker is replaceable.
Just goes to show that incompetence can be anywhere.
This jerk can say anything now and not be accountable for a word. I hope his tape is kept and played back at the end of this year.
They had the ball to go and knot it all up in KC. And they did nothing. Just a sloppy 3 and out.
That's where the money is made. THat is the next step Baker needs to make.
I know he has the ability. He helped will the team back to a tie in the second Ravens game.
It's about putting it all together now. He has the skill. He has the intelligence and poise to be great. He just needs to tune up the timing belt so all cylinders fire in time.
I wonder if Tannenbaum actually watches any games. He said the Browns could have the same success with Cousins and Keenum. 90% of the people that speak on Baker are biased by his polarizing personality and their desire to see him fail. I've never seen anything like it in my 40+ years watching sports.
Bottom line, no one makes more plus level throws than Baker.
To accomplish what Baker has done is frankly amazing.
Just in college football to go to two programs as a walk on and become the starter is no easy task. Then to put up the numbers he did and win the Heisman.
Then do what he has done as a pro under the circumstances he faced. I don't know what you need to prove?
I don't need others to judge. I know what I see.
Baker will continue to do what he has done. Prove himself.
I look for Baker to continue to do what we seem to be very good at now.
Identifying and developing players in our system to fill team needs is the new calling card of this team and organization. Baker is a by product of that system and like most players I see come thru this program he is growing and developing into a stud. A key to that success was getting Baker into a situation where he could be comfortable/confident/ and played to what he does best.
The real credit for Baker is Baker of course but the underlying key is coaching and player development. The coaches had a clear plan for Baker heading into last season and they got Baker to buy in, from there the sky is the limit for Baker and for the team.
Let's face it folks the real strength of this team and organization is player identification and development. What that truly leads to is long term success. Yes folks we have the building blocks of a dynasty.
I believe we have found the holy grail of the NFL. The ability to develop talent into a well oiled unit that does one thing really well, win !
A perfect example was what happened in New Orleans with Brees and Payton.
The relationship between Baker and Stefanski will be key to what the Browns accomplish. In many ways KS appears to be the perfect balance for Baker. He is a calm caluculated individual. Baker is buying into what KS is providing. Clear communication of what he wants and how he wants things to work. But also he wants two way communication. KS wants his qb to question and have input.
When they reach that Vulcan mind meld state. good things will happen.
Can the Browns get more than 12 catches per game, to their WR's? yes, think so.
(Talking about, non TE, non RB, and non passes thrown by other than the QB on trick plays.)
Can the Browns get more than, .. 17 catches in games, to their WR's? eeehhhh, I "want" to say so, it's getting tougher to think it's probable. ...
Can the Browns, get more than, (22) catches in games, to their WR's? Wow. whew, I wish so. (They don't really seem to be built for this, but it "is" possible.)
This is very important because, : If the Browns do not have explosive play capability they will not win playoff games, and offense is the easier way to score points vs. defense.
Can the Browns get 27 catches per game, even in one game, to their WR's It would be a Thing to see.
My best quick guess is Baker Mayfield has Not Yet completed 27 passes to WR's in any one game in his pro career, which there is nothing wrong with using TE's and Rb's.
... My thoughts are that of Allen and the bills,, Lamar and the Ravnes, and The Browns and Baker that whichever deal is finalized first will probably end up the best for both the player and the team.
Mayfield also gets a sizable amount of income from endorsement deals, which is a factor that could play a role. It could make him more patient to get a deal done because he can afford it, but it also might focus him more on increasing his chances on winning the Super Bowl over maximizing every dollar in contract negotiations.
This is a great point. Baker could be like Gronkowski, never spending a paycheck, and living off endorsements very well. As well as he's doing now, could you imagine the bucks he'd make after a Super Bowl win?!!
One of the things I see people (and the media) mention all the time is completion percentage. They use it to trash Baker.
Completion percentage is one of the most misused stats I've ever seen. It's not quite what people think it means. If you attempt two passes and complete them for a total of 10 yards, is that better than going 1/2 for a 30 yard completion? In this case, 50% completion is better than 100%.
Baker regularly attempts aggressive, downfield throws. He ranks near the top of the league with Big Time Throws and Intended Air Yards per completion. It goes a long way to driving an offense and putting up points on the board. Then you look at someone like Teddy Bridgewater who threw for 69.1% completion last year but drove Panthers fans up a wall because he couldn't consistently run the offense and throw downfield.
Baker will never be a 70% completion percentage guy. While we do want to see him bring it up from 61/62% to 64/65% as improvement, we shouldn't expect much higher. He's a natural gunslinger and is gonna attempt bigger throws.
One of the things I see people (and the media) mention all the time is completion percentage. They use it to trash Baker.
Completion percentage is one of the most misused stats I've ever seen. It's not quite what people think it means. If you attempt two passes and complete them for a total of 10 yards, is that better than going 1/2 for a 30 yard completion? In this case, 50% completion is better than 100%.
Baker regularly attempts aggressive, downfield throws. He ranks near the top of the league with Big Time Throws and Intended Air Yards per completion. It goes a long way to driving an offense and putting up points on the board. Then you look at someone like Teddy Bridgewater who threw for 69.1% completion last year but drove Panthers fans up a wall because he couldn't consistently run the offense and throw downfield.
Baker will never be a 70% completion percentage guy. While we do want to see him bring it up from 61/62% to 64/65% as improvement, we shouldn't expect much higher. He's a natural gunslinger and is gonna attempt bigger throws.
Welcome back...
True % is miss leading for the action of ACCURATE...I see some 70% completions having a TE catch the ball near their knees having them stop their route to catch the ball for me accuracy is having the ball in a perfect position for the WR to get YAC without breaking stride. Its not measured by % but by accuracy!
I wonder if Tannenbaum actually watches any games. He said the Browns could have the same success with Cousins and Keenum. 90% of the people that speak on Baker are biased by his polarizing personality and their desire to see him fail. I've never seen anything like it in my 40+ years watching sports.
Bottom line, no one makes more plus level throws than Baker.
Pretty sure all of their desires are not to see Baker Fail yet to see Baker leave the Browns and join their favorite team.
Yes it is. Someone made the comment there were actually people on this board that were included in that group. That wasn't you so my apologies for taking your comment the wrong way.
Apology accepted. But I'm sure someone somewhere on this board wants Baker to fail whether they say so or not.
I work in the golf industry so my posting and reading of posts declines some in the summer months, but I'll occasionally peak my head in.
Baker is such a fascinating story to me because so many people doubt his talents. We went from 0-17 to 11-5 and a playoff win within 3 years. Replace Baker with any of the past 26+ starting quarterbacks for the Browns and ask if you think we get better results. I don't think so.
The guys in charge didn't suffer thru the past 20+ years, but me? I'm signing Baker to the biggest contract the NFL has ever seen. 10 years is a long time, but I'd do a Mahomes-esque deal.
I had the exact same question about Baker as I do every rookie QB. How well will he adapt to reading NFL defenses and quickly react. It's something almost every NCAA QB must answer when they come into the NFL. Very few schools run a pro style offense so that question is a logical one.
It was impossible to rush to judgement on that because there was no stability in coaches and systems for him to reach a comfort level. Yet the last half of last season he became much better at it. You could just see it. I'm not much of one to make bold predictions and I won't do that now. But going into his second season in a consistent, productive system, the sky is the limit for Baker.
He hates anything north. He believes we're all stupid because we could make a smart decision and move out of the cold weather and that no person in their right mind would live where it snows.
I stopped listening when he said as much. Not that I really listened to him that much anyway. 100% he gets the ratings because he bashes Cleveland, he gets a rise out of us fans and all others just laugh and point the finger.
When we win a super bowl it'll be a fluke and something we will never duplicate. Browns will be the worst team to win a Super Bowl and will probably lose every game the following year.
I often wonder if some fans, at the end of the day, actually do value being proven right about a prospect over athletes for their team turning out well. I think it's ridiculous, but some of the things I've heard/read stuff from fans that really make me wonder.
That said, there is a line between criticism and what I described, and some posting styles and which side of the bed they've woken up on can make that line not so clear.
I try to give people the benefit of the doubt, but to device's point, that sometimes it's really tough.
That quote right there should tell you all you need to know about Cowturd. Hunt had the rushing title a few years ago. He makes a living out of saying stupid stuff, while acting as if he is an expert on everything. He is the poster boy of what the media has become, trash talking know it alls.
Maybe Cowherd is trying to sing to Jets fans still bitter that Cleveland didn't take the NY Medias' unhealthy advice to draft Darnold #1 so Mayfield could end up with the Jets in 2018. Sour Grapes allegedly. According to various medias' hoping to dump Darnold onto Cleveland, Mayfield was going to turn around the Jets, the Broncos, was going to take over for the Packers, among others, before the Browns took him #1 overall.
Ever since he got to Cleveland, the NY and Hollywood medias' have been trying to talk Baker away from the Browns, like they wished Lebron to Miami back in 20xx' because they are big market snobs in my opinion. Seems like motive enough to me.
Moreso than since I can't remember when, I am having a blast talking with the Bengal fans in my area. The majority of them are quite clueless about anything other than their own team and usually even about their own team...it's kinda fun.
They make Baker comments and comparisons as if they have a clue...they love them some Joe Burrow. I explain to these dolts that I watch every AFC North game and while I'm no QB guru, I've seen as much of Burrow as they have and they've seen precious little of Baker. The claims they make are hilarious.
There isn't a QB in the league who I would take over Baker - and that includes Mahommes. I have seen "it" in Baker since college. The only question was whether the whole package would transfer to the NFL. His progress away from Hue and now with KS is impressive. His floor was always high and his ceiling hasn't even been painted yet.
There were two things missing from Baker's performance last year: #1 Experience in the offense that was brand spanking new to everyone...that problem was clearly solved over the bye week last year; #2 A deep threat receiver. Remember Perriman in Baker's rookie year? Yeah, me too. Once OBJ went out, the receiver-eligible players were jammed together with little threat of stretching the field...and he still excelled.
This year, the system will be new only to the rookies...on offense that means the #5-#6 WR and maybe a scat-back RB who will play behind Chubb & Hunt. Baker's arm talent has always been evident - strength and accuracy. The "wait" on him was his reading the defense. His development in that "weakness" was evident last year...with training wheels on...and no one able to play freely without thinking things out. Those days are over.
Baker committed himself to the footwork suggestions of Van Pelt and a cannon got stronger. He got fat with FK, then paid the price and learned a lesson. That will not be an issue this year. There is really only one thing about Baker that could be better...he could be an inch or so taller. I'll take it.
I am happy with Baker. Quarterbacks coming into the NFL have a lot to learn. They do not come in as finshed products. It requires dedication and work to improve. Baker has improved.
I am not going to say I would take him over Mahomes. I am just happy we have Baker.
I do believe he will continue to get better. He has a great opportunity in front of him. We are now a stable team. We have a great GM and head coach. And the owner is smart enough to stay out of the way.
Baker has every tool surrounding him to succeed. He has the OL, the backs, the TE's, the receivers, and the right system for him.
Baker brings leadership, accuracy, and improving decision making. He has plenty of arm. He is also unafraid. Baker will make throws others will not because he will take those chances and trust himself.
Some qb's will check down and have higher completion percentages but will not make the big plays when they are needed.
Baker is good enough to win a championship. And to me that is what matters.
One of the constant narratives that surrounds Baker is: "he can't lift the play of others."
What is the true meaning there?
IMO each player is responsible for himself. If a player plays bad is he not responsible to play better?
If a quarterback plays well what happens? In order for a quarterback to play well guess what? He is dependent upon others. If the line doesn't block and qb is sacked. Who is at fault? If a receiver drops passes who is at fault?
A quarterback sets a tone by being himself. Players know phonies. He sets the tone all year. Players know who works hard. Players know skill when they see it.
Leadership. Baker has been a leader from the first time he played quarterback. Track his career.
If people in the media think Baker can't win throwing the ball then they have not watched him play.
At the end of this season all this trash talk on Baker will come to an abrupt end.
Why are we even concerned about this?! Let those who want to denigrate Baker do their thing. He THRIVES on criticism. Every time someone doubts him, his desire to prove them wrong drives him further.
A woman reporter who covered Baker in college was interviewed.
She said she covered Baker at both the colleges that he walked on to. Saying Baker has always been willing to gamble on himself. In fact she said at OK on his locker was a list of names of the people (reporters etc.) who doubted him.
That is part of what drives him and how he motivates himself.
I don't care really because I rely upon what I see.
However, I don't like facts distorted and slanted to try and make the guy look bad. Just be honest.
But in the day of internet clicks being the best way to generate money you're going to have a lot of situations where accuracy isn't the goal. It's always been that way to some extent and in today's world it's even worse. I don't think anyone "likes it".
The issue then becomes how to deal with things the way they are since we have no mechanism by which we can control that situation. I'm hoping Baker has matured beyond "making a list on his locker room door" and is concentrating on simply being the best Baker he can be.
I'm guessing he has. Wasting your time trying to get even with your detractors takes away from the main goal.
I must be blind cause his last 9 games where the offense started to click he lifted the play of the WRs and TE the RBs were of course solid that is no fault of Bakers but he definitely got the OL excited and I think our D would feed off of that also.
We will see much more this season. But how many times did all break down and Baker would make something out of nothing. Awe man I cannot wait for you all to see who we actually have back there.
For those who wish to be critical maybe they should spend some time really looking at Baker's entire career in football.
Leadership is not given. And you don't practice it.
To accomplish what Baker has done first of all takes leadership.
You don't walk on to a program and everyone looks to you to lead the team. First you have to gain respect. Then you must show skill. When players believe in you they will follow your lead.
"System quarterback." Really?
Look at the all the different systems Baker has played under. Except for Freddy he did pretty good.
He won the Heisman. He set the NFL record for TD's as a rookie in 14.5 games.
He took at team that was 1-31 in the previous years to his arrival to a win on the road against the division champions in his third year.
First and foremost I am all about team. Although the quarterback is the premier position on the field it is also the most dependent upon others.
I hear all this bs talk about lift the play of others. If the others do their job then so should the quarterback.
Take away good play of the others. I do not care who the quarterback is; he will not look to good.
Peyton in many ways represents great performance from the qb position. Yet, I have seen him play awful if not protected. Same goes for Brady.
I mention them because neither guy is in the elite physical class of great athletes. Both won on the mental side of football. Add Brees to that conversation. Three Hall of Famers. None have Lamar running skills. Nor are they as gifted athletically as Mahomes or Allen.
Are they franchise quarterbacks? Or, as Mike Tannen-bum says they are replaceable.
So, I expect Baker to have an exceptional season.
Everything is place. He is starting his fourth year. Second in this offense and under the same coach.
Offensively, we were really good the second half of last year. We have all the returning parts plus Odell and upgraded depth.
Defensively, we did a remake. We added vastly improved talent. The defense should be better in all aspects of defensive play. That includes giving the offense more opportunities.
So, I expect more points. Better efficiency and overall improved play.
I totally believe we are a Super Bowl contender.
To win it all. You need a few breaks. Some plays have to go your way. Kicks have to be made. You may have to pull some games out of the fire.
You can not predict that. You can only hope to be a position for that to take place.
This is an intricacy of the game that I would honestly never have noticed without this video. There are so many levels involved. Identifying the problem. Designing a solution. Reading the defense's response and using that information to determine where the ball goes. It's another example of how Browns'coaching and Baker's executions combined to raise the level of his play over the course of the 2020 season.
I wish the game audio was there. His first negative example and all positive examples were from shotgun, but the second negative examples was under center... so, what was the tip-off when under center?
Agreed it was a good tape. If we can avoid major injuries and stay pretty healthy, how far we go will be in Bakers hands. He has to be able to play with the better QB's like Mahoomes. If he cannot play at a high level it will hurt our chances to be an elite team. Personally, I think he can play at a high level most of the time.
Agreed it was a good tape. If we can avoid major injuries and stay pretty healthy, how far we go will be in Bakers hands. He has to be able to play with the better QB's like Mahoomes. If he cannot play at a high level it will hurt our chances to be an elite team. Personally, I think he can play at a high level most of the time.
Understandably fans are bound to focus on Bake, he is after all the team leader the QB. But I think this team has huge advantages that go far beyond just Bake being the deciding factor in team success. That is actually why expectations are high we have the kind of roster that winning may come from anywhere and likely will.
One week it could be the defense creating a slew of turnovers or shutting out the opposing teams offense. Or it could be Chubb and Hunt reeling off one big run after another. There are a lot of ways we can win that go beyond Bake and that is not to say he isn't the main ingredient because he is but what will truly define this team in my mind is TEAM.
Agreed it was a good tape. If we can avoid major injuries and stay pretty healthy, how far we go will be in Bakers hands. He has to be able to play with the better QB's like Mahoomes. If he cannot play at a high level it will hurt our chances to be an elite team. Personally, I think he can play at a high level most of the time.
Understandably fans are bound to focus on Bake, he is after all the team leader the QB. But I think this team has huge advantages that go far beyond just Bake being the deciding factor in team success. That is actually why expectations are high we have the kind of roster that winning may come from anywhere and likely will.
One week it could be the defense creating a slew of turnovers or shutting out the opposing teams offense. Or it could be Chubb and Hunt reeling off one big run after another. There are a lot of ways we can win that go beyond Bake and that is not to say he isn't the main ingredient because he is but what will truly define this team in my mind is TEAM.
I don't see any roster problems from the last 3 years that haven't been addressed. On-paper upgrades in some spots at present, to be sure- but smart acquisitions at all areas of concern. The proof must be shown on the field as always, but I like what was done for the D this past offseason. It's very reminiscent of what was done for the O, one step earlier in The Process (yeah- I said the 'P' word- sue me!).
I have a hard time imagining what this team might look like, come Sept. 'Greatest Show on Turf'- style games? Slobberknocker facesmash mud ball? High-level chess matches that set NFL scoring records? Snow-covered, low-scoring D matchups on the North Coast in Dec?
Barring catastrophic injury pandemic, I don't see a game, opponent or scenario that favors the other team. I look at this roster, think about how it was assembled, spend a moment dwelling on how this coaching staff produced what they did during a global pandemic, calculate how much better they might be with another year in the system... and my head swims, sometimes.
I still can't yet believe I'm typing sentences that read like this. At a Cleveland Browns Fansite.
There is that surreal feeling of "is this really hapenning?"
On a table next to my bed is a Brown's helmet signed by Jim Brown. His history is intertwined with Browns history. I wonder what he is feeling about this team?
For over thirty years I watched almost every Browns game with a friend who passed away four years ago. We talked all through the week about the Browns. It did not matter the time of the year. One game a year he would travel with some extended family a go to an away game. One year I was home watching when we played the 49ers. The camera spaned the crowd of Brown's backers at the that game. There he was with game jersey on. Totally cool.
I bring him up because he would be freaking out with what is going on right now. He would know what this team could do this year.
I am sure there are many others who have lost close friends or family that they wish could be sharing this experience of these high expectations for this season.
There is that bond amongst us all. That something as insignificant as a football game is so important to Browns fans. And now we look at this upcoming season and believe "wow this could be it."
....I don't see a game, opponent or scenario that favors the other team.
Unreal, isn't it? After game 1, I don't either. The only reason I feel that for the Chiefs game is that we have a lot of new pieces that haven't played together and the Chiefs are the well established Super Bowl team.
....I don't see a game, opponent or scenario that favors the other team.
Unreal, isn't it? After game 1, I don't either. The only reason I feel that for the Chiefs game is that we have a lot of new pieces that haven't played together and the Chiefs are the well established Super Bowl team.
Except that this is their first game with a re-vamped O-line. Should be interesting day for Mssrs. Clowney and Garrett.
Agreed it was a good tape. If we can avoid major injuries and stay pretty healthy, how far we go will be in Bakers hands. He has to be able to play with the better QB's like Mahoomes. If he cannot play at a high level it will hurt our chances to be an elite team. Personally, I think he can play at a high level most of the time.
He already has shown he can hang with the other stud QBs, he went toe to toe with Mahomes and our D faltered no Baker.
Bonefish, I also had somebody I was close to who was passionate about the Browns. He died 5 years ago in the midst of the agony of losing. I can only imagine the amazement and joy he would have for this team.
I lost a really close friend last year as well. Huge fan, we went to so many games growing up and through high school. Lost touch for about twenty years and reconnected in '18. Went to a couple games together in '19, had plans for more in 20... He had a massive heart attack and died at 53. Heart breaking.
We shared so many Browns stories over the last couple years. The time his older cousin's '74 Nova broke down on I71 on the way to the game. Parked it and hitchhiked, two fourteen year-olds and his seventeen year-old cousin. Got to the game in the 3rd Q in time to watch the Browns beat the Pack on Sipe's long pass to Logan with the clock ticking away.
The time we showed up with counterfeit tickets we bought outside the stadium. Ushered to an office by security -- culminating with the officer saying "I want you guys to go straight back out the gate. I won't be watching... don't even think about going up to some of those seats in the upper section"... with a wink and a smile.
The Jets 23–20 double-overtime thriller in the divisional playoffs, fresh out of high school, passing around a flask of whiskey in the Dawg Pound -- freezing our asses off lol.
The memories last a lifetime, unfortunately, "a lifetime" wasn't long enough for some of our fallen comrades. Rob ain't the only one I lost, and I'm sure many of you have similar stories. Most people just aren't capable of wrapping their mind around how special this will all be for all of us "die-hards" when we finally reach the promised land. Not sure how I'll get through all of it because my mind will quickly shift to Rob, Dave, my step-dad and other fellow fans that won't be there to share the feeling.
My friend Bruce was from Cleveland. We met like 35 years ago at work. Discovered we were both from Cleveland living in Atlanta and both of us die hard fans of the Browns.
He was a single black guy at that time. I was married with a daughter and white. We talked everyday. Had my sister mail a weeks worths of sports sections from the PD. We would get the "Browns Illustrated" and game plan for Sunday.
This was just when we got Kosar. On Sundays we would drive to hotels outside Atlanta to watch games. He met a gal and got engaged. I was in his wedding. The only white guy at the wedding. I was tight with his whole family. He had two daughters who would come over.
We never missed a game. Off season we scouted the draft like we were GM's.
I moved to Nevada. He had a bunch of things go wrong following a compound fracture. Got a blood disorder and passed. He didn't make it to sixty. We shared a lot of life. His brother called me as he was very near the end. He wanted to hear my voice before he passed.
I think of him all the time especially as a season nears. He would be climbing the walls waiting for this season to start.
I know there will be times coming during games when I will ask for help to pull a game out. Like he was sitting next to me.
There is that surreal feeling of "is this really hapenning?"
On a table next to my bed is a Brown's helmet signed by Jim Brown. His history is intertwined with Browns history. I wonder what he is feeling about this team?
For over thirty years I watched almost every Browns game with a friend who passed away four years ago. We talked all through the week about the Browns. It did not matter the time of the year. One game a year he would travel with some extended family a go to an away game. One year I was home watching when we played the 49ers. The camera spaned the crowd of Brown's backers at the that game. There he was with game jersey on. Totally cool.
I bring him up because he would be freaking out with what is going on right now. He would know what this team could do this year.
I am sure there are many others who have lost close friends or family that they wish could be sharing this experience of these high expectations for this season.
There is that bond amongst us all. That something as insignificant as a football game is so important to Browns fans. And now we look at this upcoming season and believe "wow this could be it."
I have a DREAM, and I plan on seeing it out. I know Tab does too.
When it comes to quarterbacks there is no shortage of opinions.
There is a constant evaluation process. New guys come into the league. Old guys retire or hang on.
I see people putting Justin Herbert or Joe Burrow in the top ten? Kyle Murray rated ahead of Baker?
How should a quarterback be evaluated?
Every quarterback coming into the league goes into a different situation. Think about Trevor Lawrence and Troy Lance. The 49ers are not the same as the Jags.
So when we look at the class of 2018 and we look at contract extensions. How should we look at Baker, Lamar and Allen?
Lamar won a MVP. Allen came in second last year.
Three quarterbacks and three different teams and situations. The Ravens and Bills have not changed much in three years as far as coaching. The Ravens dumped Flacco and brought in Greg Roman to build what is now "the Lamar offense."
Allen went to a new staff and they developed Allen and built the team around him. He showed massive improvement in his third season.
We all know what Baker went through. Yet Baker seems to be evaluated like three seasons as the measuring stick. Meaning his numbers are looked at in total over his first three seasons.
Allen is measured by last year and is considered now a top five guy.
Honestly the evaluation of Baker Mayfield should begin from the second half of last year.
The reason is simple. Baker today is who he is - today.
He was in the middle of a Todd Haley/Hue disconnect. Baker hated Hue. Clearly Baker's first year was not an advantageous situation.
Then along came Freddie. No need to go there.
Ok, Kevin arrives along with Van Pelt. Van Pelt worked with Rodgers. 2020 Camp and the covid year. Not ideal for a rookie coach and staff.
By the second half things started clicking. We saw the real Baker.
Now the 2021 season is close. The Browns are not starting over. In fact, we actually get to build upon like the Ravens and Bills have done.
the whole situational argument is something I give little stock to because eventually a player is going to have a career.
I mean, ... do I think Justin fields is going to be a better Qb in Chicago than he would be in Jacksonville or a real bad team like the 99 bengals, heck ya. Does that mean Justin Fields in Chicago is a much better NFL player than he would have been in a very bad team situation with no talent around him, Yes! Yes it does. because eventually they are going to have a career.
Say you put Tom Brady on the 2011 Browns. and he played his whole career on teams with no talent and bad coaching, and someone wants to say, he would be the same player as he is historically today. I say No! What's around him effects his ability to do the job, therefore he would never be as good, (still good) but not 'as good of a player.
I believe a quarterbacks job is to lead the team to first downs that become touchdowns. And other things secondarily branch off from that.
but I came up with that definition before Baker Mayfield came along. Baker! may be changing my mindset. Because I think Baker has shown the answer to, What is the quarterbacks job? Be awesome. Just be Awesome, Throw 6 touchdowns in a quarter Why Not! I mean if they're going to give you the ball back, just be awesome.
There are a lot of pages in this thread and I didn't look through all of them. So, this may have been mentioned.
If you look at pictures of Mayfield taken during this off-season it's evident that he has changed his body. At first, I noticed that his face was leaner in some of the press conferences. If there are any fitness fanatics on the board I think they can confirm that during weight loss or, more accurately, fat loss your body tends to lean out in the same order that you "fatten up". Meaning, since we tend to add fat in the face last it comes off last.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
Anyway, in the last couple of days, I've seen pictures of Mayfield at a kids' football camp. You can see his entire physique is noticeably leaner than previous seasons. His core is visibly trimmer and his chest and shoulders seem to have more definition (as much I can tell, he's wearing a long sleeve T). I can't say much about his legs but it would be an absolute crime if he ignored his leg training while working on his upper body. Overall, he may not necessarily weigh much less than before since muscle has more mass than fat.
These changes to his body are going to help elevate his game. They signal how dialed in he is. I'm excited to see the results on the field.
Baker looks great. He's toned up without adding "bulk". In the first episode of Just Juice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs02iwMVH0M), Jarvis first sees Baker and comments on how skinny he looks... Baker says he's at 214. That's only a pound lighter than his usual tape, so there wasn't really weight loss, just a "redistribution".
It's obvious he is more toned through the chest, shoulders and core, so it would be silly to think he neglected his legs. His transfer of power (or "whip") that he generates from his legs through his hips was already "elite" and among the best I've ever seen for a QB.
Baker looks great. He's toned up without adding "bulk". In the first episode of Just Juice (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vs02iwMVH0M), Jarvis first sees Baker and comments on how skinny he looks... Baker says he's at 214. That's only a pound lighter than his usual tape, so there wasn't really weight loss, just a "redistribution".
It's obvious he is more toned through the chest, shoulders and core, so it would be silly to think he neglected his legs. His transfer of power (or "whip") that he generates from his legs through his hips was already "elite" and among the best I've ever seen for a QB.
When it comes to quarterbacks there is no shortage of opinions.
There is a constant evaluation process. New guys come into the league. Old guys retire or hang on.
I see people putting Justin Herbert or Joe Burrow in the top ten? Kyle Murray rated ahead of Baker?
How should a quarterback be evaluated?
Every quarterback coming into the league goes into a different situation. Think about Trevor Lawrence and Troy Lance. The 49ers are not the same as the Jags.
So when we look at the class of 2018 and we look at contract extensions. How should we look at Baker, Lamar and Allen?
Lamar won a MVP. Allen came in second last year.
Three quarterbacks and three different teams and situations. The Ravens and Bills have not changed much in three years as far as coaching. The Ravens dumped Flacco and brought in Greg Roman to build what is now "the Lamar offense."
Allen went to a new staff and they developed Allen and built the team around him. He showed massive improvement in his third season.
We all know what Baker went through. Yet Baker seems to be evaluated like three seasons as the measuring stick. Meaning his numbers are looked at in total over his first three seasons.
Allen is measured by last year and is considered now a top five guy.
Honestly the evaluation of Baker Mayfield should begin from the second half of last year.
The reason is simple. Baker today is who he is - today.
He was in the middle of a Todd Haley/Hue disconnect. Baker hated Hue. Clearly Baker's first year was not an advantageous situation.
Then along came Freddie. No need to go there.
Ok, Kevin arrives along with Van Pelt. Van Pelt worked with Rodgers. 2020 Camp and the covid year. Not ideal for a rookie coach and staff.
By the second half things started clicking. We saw the real Baker.
Now the 2021 season is close. The Browns are not starting over. In fact, we actually get to build upon like the Ravens and Bills have done.
The true evaluation of Baker Mayfield now begins.
IMO he will show up and deliver.
Baker is the very least of my worries he will be just fine. He developed so quickly under Ski and Van Pelt it's eye popping and it clearly points to having the kind of coaching that identifies issues but equally important what to do to correct those issues once identified. Last season Ski and Van Pelt had a plan for Baker and they got him to buy in and work that plan and man in the second half of the season he was incredible and I think that direction will continue and as long as it does I believe that the sky is the limit for Baker and for the Browns.
I know I have said this before what this team lacked was coaching and a plan to make it better. This team is going to be unstoppable by mid season, and the offense will be that way from jump. If the offense can carry the team early the defense is going to catch up and then, then we will easily be not just the best team in terms of a paper roster but the best team in terms of on the field play.
Say goodbye to the battered fan and hello to the battered NFL at the hands of the Browns. This time in spite of past seasons of hope we have everything we need to be champions for a long long time.; Buckle up our Browns are back.
At the same time I know how tough the league is. How hard every team works to improve and the talent that is out there.
The Ravens have talent and are well coached. Lamar is a threat. He scares defenses because in space he is a load to handle.
This season the Ravens have made a concerted effort to upgrade their receivers with the additions of Watkins and the drafting of Bateman.
IMO their plan is to get Lamar in space (out of the pocket) and have him throw or run from there. Not unlike what the Browns did with Baker on the roll.
I can not predict how that will work out for them. At the same time they have a good defense especially at corner.
Playing them twice in three weeks will probably decide the division.
I am confident. At the same I know that it will not be a cake walk.
In the past the Browns would play close games or loose to teams that they should beat.
IMO that will not happen this year. They will destroy lesser teams. There will be no comebacks once teams are down. And the teams we should beat. We will.
I mean watch the commercial when Baker tells old man Tom Brady to "get out there."
Tom hands Baker his rings and the look on Baker's face when he's holding them. He wants his own.
It's not going to be easy but Baker will have some of his own. I fully expect Baker to be the "next Tom Brady."*
*Now let's get serious, I don't think there will ever be another Tom Brady but I believe of all current quarterbacks in the league, the next best thing will be Baker.
If any starting QB in the NFL when thinking about a SB ring doesn't "want his own", they're in the wrong business.
I certainly think Baker is a good QB. Currently probably cracking the top 10 in the NFL. How much better he will get is anyone's guess but the trajectory certainly appears to be good.
It's not going to be easy but Baker will have some of his own. I fully expect Baker to be the "next Tom Brady."*
*Now let's get serious, I don't think there will ever be another Tom Brady but I believe of all current quarterbacks in the league, the next best thing will be Baker.
At the same time I know how tough the league is. How hard every team works to improve and the talent that is out there.
The Ravens have talent and are well coached. Lamar is a threat. He scares defenses because in space he is a load to handle.
This season the Ravens have made a concerted effort to upgrade their receivers with the additions of Watkins and the drafting of Bateman.
IMO their plan is to get Lamar in space (out of the pocket) and have him throw or run from there. Not unlike what the Browns did with Baker on the roll.
I can not predict how that will work out for them. At the same time they have a good defense especially at corner.
Playing them twice in three weeks will probably decide the division.
I am confident. At the same I know that it will not be a cake walk.
In the past the Browns would play close games or loose to teams that they should beat.
IMO that will not happen this year. They will destroy lesser teams. There will be no comebacks once teams are down. And the teams we should beat. We will.
You have to respect the Ravens because they are very well coached, but Jackson doesn't scare me from the pocket or out of the pocket as well. he is not and will never be a good quarterback. In the last game we played against them last season I think he thru the ball like 6 times in the 1st half, if that tells you anything it should IMO tell you that the coaches don't truly trust him throwing the ball he is only a threat when he runs. He missed wide open receivers repeatedly in that game, and if not for our CB's running over each other he would have never pulled off the miracle he did. They won't be that lucky this year count on it.
The Browns defense as much as anything is built to stop players like Jackson, Hill, Kelso, admittedly it may take a bit for everything to fall into place and I still worry about getting bullied once you get past the D line but will track down the Jacksons and Hills we have speed to burn and that will shut down Jackson for good. Baltimore is reacting to us and how we are being built they see the difficulty they are about to face with us. But as long as Jackson is their QB they will never get past the 1st or second round of the playoffs, he sucks as a throwing QB and no amount of better receivers will correct his poor accuracy issues.
JMHO but I have no respect for Jackson the QB, Jackson the runner is all world though.
I agree the Browns are overrated. An injury or two to the OL and Mayfield will be exposed. He's been working under ideal conditions with the exception of horrid coaching until recently. Without high level OL play I suspect we will see he is average.
I just read this on the Ravens forum and thought you all might enjoy it.
It is sort of amazing how fans sometimes think they understand the success of a program but don't. I include myself in that as well. I know I believe things that aren't so but this stood out to me.
This guy wasn't paying attention closely enough to us to see we had guys along the line get dinged all season long and the guy we put in to replace them with held up just fine. They don't understand that because we have superior coaching on the O Line we are ready to roll in this area no matter who happens to play. But the guy thinks if we suffer an injury will collapse or Mayfield will.. Odd guy probably thinks he has it figured out though.
Ravens fans by and large don't say much about the Browns, I suppose that is out of fear of what is coming..........
I agree the Browns are overrated. An injury or two to the OL and Mayfield will be exposed. He's been working under ideal conditions with the exception of horrid coaching until recently. Without high level OL play I suspect we will see he is average.
just read this on the Ravens forum and thought you all might enjoy it.
It is sort of amazing how fans sometimes think they understand the success of a program but don't. I include myself in that as well. I know I believe things that aren't so but this stood out to me.
This guy wasn't paying attention closely enough to us to see we had guys along the line get dinged all season long and the guy we put in to replace them with held up just fine. They don't understand that because we have superior coaching on the O Line we are ready to roll in this area no matter who happens to play. But the guy thinks if we suffer an injury will collapse or Mayfield will.. Odd guy probably thinks he has it figured out though.
Ravens fans by and large don't say much about the Browns, I suppose that is out of fear of what is coming..........
Outside of leading with the Browns are overrated, I don't think he is off by any means. 2019 is in the minds of a lot of people and the hype given to us at that time. We certainly were OVERRATED. So there is a legit reason to have that mindset again. I don't hate on anyone for thinking this, whatsoever.
When the Browns had a worse O-line corps than what we have now (specifically the 2019 version), Baker struggled. I'm sure there were many factors that played a part, but the bottom line is when added defensive pressure was applied and our line wasn't a top O-line in the league, Baker, at times, played as bad as any QB in the NFL. You knock out our tackles or the interior for any extended period of time, it will definitely show.
Regarding offensive line injuries, I don't know how this compared to other teams but our starters missed 7 of a collective 80 games among the five of them. That's not even 9%.
While I am worried I'm setting myself up for disappointment, I'm having a hard time keeping my excitement for this season in check.
I am more than ok with anyone/everyone else overlooking us. First, there's a long and established history of us not being able to get out of our own way. I don't expect fans of other teams to really keep tabs on our team, so I don't hold it against any fan that's still basically saying "same old Browns". That also brings me to my other point (the last time an actual opponent said "same ol' Browns"). The competitive advantage of teams overlooking us and disrespecting a talented group is obvious.
As for the team itself, I can certainly understand why folks would still question Baker's progression. His career thus far has been up-and-down, and he's always had a top-flight running game to help him out. Other than his rookie year, his receiver corps (on paper at least) has been one of the better ones in the league. And then this past year his Oline was unbelievable. Relative to other bad/lazy hottakes, Baker being a product of the system/talent around him isn't the worst I've heard. I wouldn't expect anyone other than our own fans and beat reporters to watch and take note of Baker's progression over the course of last year, or to take note of the difference between his approach (we'll call it professionalism, for lack of a better word) between the KS season and before.
So yeah, if other teams and their fans want to call us overrated, I'm totally fine with it for a number of reasons.
I was ultra skeptical about him when he was drafted. For most of the reasons you stated. His throwing mechanics were awful. He stood straight up with his feet very close together. He was inaccurate to say the least.
However, he has worked hard. He has improved. He is a leader and he has won games. He himself has won games. He won a MVP. No small accomplishment.
Will he ever become a great pocket passer? Most likely not. But in the system they have built around him. He can execute their offense. He can win games. And the Ravens are a Super Bowl contender.
They have invested in receivers adding Watkins and drafting Bateman.
They have been beaten in the playoffs because they could not play from behind.
They have worked hard with Lamar and are trying to develop him as a passer.
This year should provide an answer if all this work pays off for them. They will try to throw more and have him run less.
It may work. It may backfire.
I remember all last pre-season and early season hearing all the talk about how much Lamar improved "as a passer".
Never saw it in pre, early, late or post seasons.
I'll say that he seems like a good guy, his guys love him and follow him. But he's going to have to be better than below-average at being an NFL QB if they are going to go deep in the playoffs. JMO
When was the last time the Browns beat the Ravens when Lamar Jackson was playing the whole or most whole of the game. I remember, there was an early season victory in 2018, if my memory is correct, so my question is who was the R. Qb for that game, was it Flacco?
Have the Browns beaten the Ravens since Lamar Jackson took the starting job. The Ravens won like 38-6, large margins 3 of the last 4 times? No wonder their fans think the Browns are overrated.
Browns laid a beatdown on the Ravens once during the Freddie Kitchens year. I don't remember the score, but it wasn't pretty for them. It was, however, a catalyst for that team as they ended up going on a pretty significant win streak after that.
The night game last year ended up being a pretty close game.
I feel like the Browns Ravens and Steelers are in a 3 way tie, a 3 way race and which ever team comes in 3rd definitely misses the playoffs, based on odds. Also that the Browns entire season could be said to rest on the play of one player (might be obvious who, might not), and otherwise 3rd place and no playoffs could be a real possibility, to avoid.
According to the article I almost posted yesterday, Since the Super Bowl era the 2020 Browns became the 8th team to make the playoffs of a draught of 14+ years, and all 7 of the others didn't make the playoffs the year after.
Have the Browns beaten the Ravens since Lamar Jackson took the starting job.
Week 4 of the 2019 season, in Baltimore. Chubb had 3 TDs, the first was a 14 yard run where he literally left 4 different defenders sprawled on the ground in his wake, each on different attempts to tackle him.
The third was an 88 yard run where he had 2 separate gear changes as he outran the entire Ravens secondary.
I feel like the Browns Ravens and Steelers are in a 3 way tie, a 3 way race and which ever team comes in 3rd definitely misses the playoffs, based on odds. Also that the Browns entire season could be said to rest on the play of one player (might be obvious who, might not), and otherwise 3rd place and no playoffs could be a real possibility, to avoid.
Have the Browns beaten the Ravens since Lamar Jackson took the starting job.
Week 4 of the 2019 season, in Baltimore. Chubb had 3 TDs, the first was a 14 yard run where he literally left 4 different defenders sprawled on the ground in his wake, each on different attempts to tackle him.
The third was an 88 yard run where he had 2 separate gear changes as he outran the entire Ravens secondary.
The all-star voting panel included seven general managers, five head coaches, 11 coordinators, 15 executives, seven quarterbacks coaches and five others working in front offices or in other coaching capacities.
Because it is a subscription site I won't post the whole thing but I'll post the order and Baker's write up.
Tier 1 - "A Tier 1 quarterback can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure passing situations. He has no real holes in his game."
1. Aaron Rodgers 2. Patrick Mahomes 3. Tom Brady 4. Russell Wilson 5. DeShaun Watson
Tier 2 - "A Tier 2 quarterback can carry his team sometimes but not as consistently. He can handle pure passing situations in doses and/or possesses other dimensions that are special enough to elevate him above Tier 3. He has a hole or two in his game."
6. Josh Allen 7. Lamar Jackson 8. Matthew Stafford 9. Dak Prescott 10. Justin Herbert 11. Matt Ryan 12. Kyler Murray 13. Ryan Tannehill 14. Joe Burrow
Tier 3 - "A Tier 3 quarterback is a legitimate starter but needs a heavier running game and/or defensive component to win. A lower-volume dropback passing offense suits him best."
15. Derek Carr 16. Ben Roethlisberger 17. Baker Mayfield 18. Kirk Cousins 19. Jared Goff 20. Carson Wentz 21. Jimmy Garoppolo 22. Daniel Jones 23. Ryan Fitzpatrick
Tier 4 - "A Tier 4 quarterback could be an unproven player with some upside or a veteran who is ultimately best suited as a backup."
24. Sam Darnold 25. Jameis Winston 26. Teddy Bridgewater 27. Cam Newton 28. Andy Dalton 29. Tua Tagovailoa 30. Jalen Hurts 31. Drew Lock 32. Tyrod Taylor 33. Taysom Hill 34. Joe Flacco
Voters like Mayfield. Most also see the supporting cast and offensive coaching helping him more than the other way around. Dividing credit along those lines makes it tougher for some to place Mayfield in Tier 2.
“Baker is probably in the 2 category, but you don’t really know with him,” an evaluator said. “You know they got a new head coach and they called it right, but they also didn’t do as much as they could have done with a legit QB.”
This evaluator compared Mayfield to prime Cincinnati Andy Dalton, but when Dalton was at his best, in 2015, his Bengals ranked fifth on defense and special teams. Mayfield’s Browns were 24th last season and still went 11-5. A different evaluator put it another way, calling Mayfield more point guard than shooting guard, but a GM called Cleveland the greatest threat to Kansas City in the AFC, thanks in part to Mayfield.
“He does benefit from a great offensive line, he has a great running game, but I do think he makes that thing go,” this GM said. “When Odell (Beckham) got hurt and they started to take off, I think that was because Baker could be more of himself. If you truly are a product of the talent that is out there, and are truly a 3, when you lose an all-pro receiver, your play should tail off. But his play improved when they relied on him to use other weapons.”
The schedule was a factor. Cleveland played a disproportionate number of games against top defenses early in the season, before Beckham was injured.
“Mayfield can throw an 18-yard deep curl route like it’s a hitch — it’s that easy for him,” a former offensive coordinator said. “The problem just comes in with the vision sometimes. He’s so accurate, and I think he’s settled down. They didn’t give him the contract yet, so they got the leash tight and should get the best of him — he wants the contract and wants to be thought of in that way. He’s figured it out. It will be about winning, all about ball.”
Mayfield’s 2020 numbers closely resembled 2019 numbers for Cousins: within two completions and 50 yards, with the same number of touchdown passes. Mayfield had two additional interceptions, two fewer sacks, two additional completions longer than 15 yards and a similar EPA per attempt. A common denominator: Browns coach Kevin Stefanski called pays for both.
“I think Baker is more talented than the guys Stefanski had in Minnesota, and then he has the leadership, he is one of the guys and he can extend plays better,” a defensive coordinator said.
Not that “better than Cousins” is necessarily the goal.
“I don’t think they see him as being special in any category,” a former head coach said. “He is good enough because of what they do. Baker has more grit than Cousins, and he is going to play better in critical situations. He’s accurate, but not exceptional.”
I am pretty sure Bake is a tier 2 QB at this juncture and I feel by seasons end this year he will be in tier one that was about where he landed at the end of last season and I expect he will pick up where he left off.
So far all the reports I have read on camp have him completing pass after pass they said day 2 he missed 2 throws. He is ready and the gun is loaded. He has been working at something this off season I would be curious to know what sort of home work Ski gave him for the off season.
Just from a pure physical standpoint he looks ready. Looks like he is in very good condition.
IMO coming from college he threw a nice ball. Baker has good solid mechanics. He is very accurate.
Coming into the league like most he needed game experience. Now starting his fourth season and being in the same offense. I expect things to really click for him.
I think it will be clear that the chemistry we have looked for will be there.
The offense last year hit their stride when the coaches figured out what works best.
Now they will be able to build upon the trust in each other.
I don't have a problem with where Mayfield is on this list, but I do have a problem with some other QBs. If you're going to take that approach with Mayfield, then I have a problem with Lamar, Tannehill and Burrow.
clarification: I think the flavor text below the ranking does a good job in explaining why they put Baker where they did. What I don't understand is why they put him there and then didn't apply similar situations similarly to those other QBs.
The deeper I dig into this list the more I believe it was made up by a moron. Great point...
Quote:
The all-star voting panel included seven general managers, five head coaches, 11 coordinators, 15 executives, seven quarterbacks coaches and five others working in front offices or in other coaching capacities.
Read the list my opinion hasn't changed Jackson is not a tier 2 QB in fact he is the bottom of a pure QB list IMO, what he is is a great runner who happens to be called a QB.
I wouldn't go that far, but it's my understanding that he's no less reliant on the people around him (namely the running game and defense) as Baker. How that pushed Baker into the next tier down but somehow kept Lamar at the top of tier 2 is beyond me.
Burrow looks to be the real deal but couldn't keep himself healthy. How you can hold Baker's bad tape against him but then rank Burrow ahead with one partial season
The list of QBs I'd trade Baker for is very very short. Based on his stats over 3 years, talking heads and journalists might not put him in tier 1 ... And I can see that. Purely on his stats and not factoring in any mitigating circumstances. Tier 3 is a joke, and generally I think the athletic it's a quality sport outlet.
Let this season speak for itself. Let the haters come up with excuses for why they were wrong and talk about how he's a system QB or whatever... I don't care two hoots. I've been in a state of "can't wait" since the draft...... Still in the same place.
This list is an absolute joke. Baker joined the laughingstock franchise of the NFL (no disrespect) which had won 1 game in two years, not been to the playoffs in 18 years, had 4 head coaches across 3 years, played with a low ranking D, poor oline before last year, and his superstar receiver out most of the time, yet still accomplished the following: 1. The team immediately started winning 2. Set the NFL rookie passing TD record 3. Lead his team to the playoffs and won. and a couple of snaps from the AFC championship game.
How does that translate to him being in an optimal situation as a reason for winning? We will never know but I think there is better than a 50% chance that if Lamar started at the Browns he would be out of the league by now. Similarly, I think Mahomes would not be regarded as the greatest QB ever if he did not land in the golden situation of having the best offense mind in the NFL as his coach, the most dynamic receiver in the NFL, the best tight end in the NFL, and the ability to sit and learn behind Alex Smith for his first year. Circumstances matter to every QB, especially when they are developing.
For those of us that have followed Baker from OU, abandoned the Cowboys, to become diehard browns fans, we all know what Baker is capable of and what he is going to do this year with a stable situation and his head screwed on tight. I can't wait to shovel the crow. I am confident this season comes down to an epic showdown with Mahomes and KC.
You can be sure I had nothing to do with that list.
You can not put Burrow, Murray, ahead of Baker. I mean they look ok but what have they done?
Herbert had a great rookie year. But has not lead a team to a playoff win. He looks very promising. the body of work is not there.
Tannehill has been in the league since 2012 and has been average. He did play well last year.
Ben is not a real comparison at this stage. He is 39. I mean he has been a great quarterback. He will get into the Hall. But you don't compare him now to Baker.
Oh well. All this kind of subjective ranking doesn't matter.
I couldn't care less about how outsiders view our team and our players. What matters to me is the results on the field. As long as the Browns win, I don't care if it's because Baker is carrying the team or effectively using the talent around him.
I couldn't care less about how outsiders view our team and our players. What matters to me is the results on the field. As long as the Browns win, I don't care if it's because Baker is carrying the team or effectively using the talent around him.
Just win baby!!
Bingo. I just thought it was interesting how Baker is perceived outside this board by people in the league.
The reason that he did so much better last year was because he has the best O Line in the league, well yeah da. is or is it not true of every QB.
Look no further then KC where the best QB in football now resides and what did they just do this past off season? Yet Baker is a worse QB then Lamar, GMAFB.
Regardless of who voted and assembled that list I think their full of you know what. And after this season and Bake flashes the results he did to end last season and more then who get's the credit. I have seen every sort of excuse as to why Bake was simply great to close the year. Maybe, it could be he put the work in and has the kind of surrounding talent that a well assembled roster with good coaching that wins in the NFL.
But there are things we all know, bad O line get QB's hurt and make them look bad, and let's be honest that is true of every single QB in the NFL. But at this point it's clear to see, if we lose that's Bakers fault and if we win it's because of someone not named Baker. The list blows.
In the end I will take the wins and the so called experts this list was compiled from can watch as Baker takes apart their teams.
What about "Browns fans" who want to see him fail?
I think you miss read Browns fans if Baker wins and wins big they will love our QB . They just will have their egos to deal with as in lost ego.
I know BAKER studying him for two years .the kid is the real deal. You all talking 70%, I'm talking 80%!!
I'mnot talking just completions I'm talking about not just catches but balls placed right in the hands at a full run... getting YAC. Back at hospital since Monday...staying alive!
In the end, I think Baker will be seen as a disappointment.
My thinking is people love stats. The media loves stats. If Baker puts up the stats required to satisfy those needs, that means we are going to be in shootouts.
If the D plays as we hope, that isn't going to happen. He is going to plug along with games where he is 16 of 23, 245 yards and a TD toss or two. Hardly MVP numbers.
If he starts throwing for 345 yards per game, we will probably lose more games.
IMO, as long as Baker can throw for those critical 1st down or TDs when needed, nobody will have any issue with us letting Chubb and Hunt grind out wins.
The list is literally made up by people working in the NFL.
That certainly adds legitimacy to the overall list...I wonder where the execs had Baker on their draft board?
Now j/c:
D Watson as a Tier 1 QB is laughable. Rodgers, Mahommes, Brady, Wilson as Tier 1 I can get behind...hard to dispute.
Watson is NOT this guy: Tier 1 - "A Tier 1 quarterback can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure passing situations. He has no real holes in his game."
How is Lamar Jackson's picture NOT next to this: Tier 3 - "A Tier 3 quarterback is a legitimate starter but needs a heavier running game and/or defensive component to win. A lower-volume dropback passing offense suits him best."
Joe Burrow in Tier 2 The guy who had to leave OSU because JT Barrett and D Haskins were ahead of him on the depth chart? Please. Here is what other experts said about Dalton...er...I mean Burrow...leading up to his draft. https://www.cincinnati.com/story/sports/...cts/5165588002/
Kyler Murray in Tier 2 ahead of Baker? Seriously?
I'd put Baker at the top of Tier 2...maybe tied with Josh Allen...but only if Allen continues his "unusual-traits-shown" year that was 2020.
To make a Qb list, criterias. maybe, if we choose to do the work, Start with the top 50 Qb's in the league or 2 per team whichever includes more, that's 64, some #2's aren't top 50.
First just list the best, 2nd actually look at it by criteria, to decide the best qbs by the numbers. Categories.
Prime number. +2 player entering their prime. -2 player is way past their prime -2 player doesn't know poo yet is year 1.
Feet. +2 player is 4.3 runningback runner of the football like loser in this division. -2 no mobility.
Legacy toward hall of fame, +2 they are a first ballot hall of famer if they retire today -2 no legacy toward the hall of fame at all.
Game Manager, (easiest) +2, they run the system they are in best because they know it -2, not only are they in a new system, they don't know how to run, "any" system they've been in yet.
Big Play days abilities, +2 in their career they've shown an ability to have days of 3+ tds, or 400+ yards on the day.
Accuracy toward completion percentages, this is not only lack of interceptions but also probability to have a day like 21 complete for 22 attempts, +2 vs. a guy who throws 36 completions on 119 attempts -2.
Winning percentage, the team wins when he starts, or doesn't +2, to -2
(Optional category,) = Strikes fear in other teams, teams totally game plan differently because the Qb is playing.
All Categories assigned a number, +2, +1, 0, -1, -2
The group with the best numbers are the top tier qbs' simple.
I want to make some comments regarding Baker Mayfield.
We all have gone to high school. In some cases high schools that maybe are more competitive than others. To be the starting quarterback on a high school team is no easy task. It is very competitive. You have to be better than others and much is expected of you.
Then comes college. The very best high school quarterbacks from every corner of the US get recruited to play. The highest ranked recruits go to the big time football programs.
Big time college football programs do not look for walk on players to lead teams at the quarterback position. They recruit three deep with scholarships.
Can anyone relate to how difficult it had to be for Baker to win the starting quarterback job as a walk-on "twice." Then win the Heisman "as the best player in college."
He was then drafted number one going to a team that had won one game in two years.
In his third year after three head coaches take that team to a playoff victory on the road against the Steelers the division champs.
And here we are getting daily comments by talking heads questioning his ability. Being called mediocre, not athletic, to small, holding the team back, needs to prove himself, not good enough to win a Super Bowl with.
Then having people say as well that he is not as good as Murray, Lamar, Allen, Herbert, Burrow and others.
It boggles the mind.
Baker is known to use those who are critical of him as motivation. He has a list of those people and what was said. And he gets crap about that. Maybe people forget how Brady feels about where he was drafted.
I dig Baker. I want him to prove it to all how good he is. If he does that The Browns will rule.
Yep, a lot of people think he's cocky, but I see it as part of who he is and more of a winner's attitude. I personally really like Baker and his competitive attitude, swagger, moxie, (whatever you want to call it) etc.
My expectations for Baker are high. I think he is the best QB in the AFC North and needs to play like it. With Baker in his prime, and the WRs and RBs we have, the Browns should have a high scoring offense.
I believe Baker will lead the team to a division and conference title. The Browns play in one of the toughest, if not the toughest, divisions in the NFL. It will be tough, but I think the Browns have the talent to do it.
Baker is known to use those who are critical of him as motivation. He has a list of those people and what was said. And he gets crap about that.
I know at one time he did that. I would hope he focuses more an what Baker is doing rather than what other people are saying at this point. At a certain juncture, focusing on what "others think" becomes a distraction.
A younger Baker gave signs of some immaturity. We are no longer seeing that. I take that as a sign he has matured and gave up on some of the antics and tactics he used when he was younger. If the last half of last season is any indication, maturity is serving him well and I hope that continues.
I want to make some comments regarding Baker Mayfield.
We all have gone to high school. In some cases high schools that maybe are more competitive than others. To be the starting quarterback on a high school team is no easy task. It is very competitive. You have to be better than others and much is expected of you.
Then comes college. The very best high school quarterbacks from every corner of the US get recruited to play. The highest ranked recruits go to the big time football programs.
Big time college football programs do not look for walk on players to lead teams at the quarterback position. They recruit three deep with scholarships.
Can anyone relate to how difficult it had to be for Baker to win the starting quarterback job as a walk-on "twice." Then win the Heisman "as the best player in college."
He was then drafted number one going to a team that had won one game in two years.
In his third year after three head coaches take that team to a playoff victory on the road against the Steelers the division champs.
And here we are getting daily comments by talking heads questioning his ability. Being called mediocre, not athletic, to small, holding the team back, needs to prove himself, not good enough to win a Super Bowl with.
Then having people say as well that he is not as good as Murray, Lamar, Allen, Herbert, Burrow and others.
It boggles the mind.
Baker is known to use those who are critical of him as motivation. He has a list of those people and what was said. And he gets crap about that. Maybe people forget how Brady feels about where he was drafted.
I dig Baker. I want him to prove it to all how good he is. If he does that The Browns will rule.
I just came back from a lengthy excusion out west, where I put over 3500 miles on my truck. Most of that driving time was spent listening to the NFL channel and other national sports channels on Sirius. It totally baffles my mind how many of these so called experts feel that Baker is just a middle of the road, game managing qb, that can't get the most out of our explosive offense. That Baker has to show a lot of improvement this year or we should move on. The wife and I kept wondering if these bozos watched a single Brown's game last year. He really gets no respect in the national media, despite showing excellence at every level he's played at. Despite this, the Browns team sure does generate a lot of positive interest though. It was wonderful hearing the buzz surrounding our team.
There's a lot of talk on Facebook about those who knock Baker. I just smile. He has always been motivated by his detractors. Let them say whatever they want, the worse, the better. He'll be that much more driven!
I agree with them that Baker probably is closer to a game manager type QB v a carry the team QB.
That said, you don't move on from that because he isn't just a game manager. He offers enough of the other to win a lot of games.
I see a lot of Theisman and the Redskins in Baker and the Browns O. Joe could chuck the ball around, but in the end it was the Hogs and Riggins that made that team click.
In the end analysis you can not do what Baker has done and not be good.
It really is that simple.
He has succeeded at every level despite great odds. That can not be an accident.
Is is easy to look at a player like Josh Allen and say what a stud. The fact is Baker has done more than he has with lesser physical skills.
I like Allen. He had a great year last year. He really improved in a number of areas. He was not very good his first two years. He has not had to go through what Baker did with the Browns coaches.
Lamar won an MVP. He went to a proven winning team. They built an offense around his skills. Yet I never hear that Lamar is a system quarterback. Of course he is a system quarterback. As a runner he can do things no other quarterback can do. Lamar can not throw the ball as well as Baker. I don't see Lamar bringing a team back down 17 points. In fact that has been exposed in playoff losses.
I have heard it said Baker has to prove he can win games from the pocket. Why? Does Lamar have to prove that? Win the game. "Baker wins because of Stefanski's offense and their running backs." Guess what Winning counts.
Baker in college won plenty of games with his arm. He put up huge numbers. Now he is playing under the scheme the head coach and OC designed. After learning it in the covid season for the first time. Yes, it took half a season. Then what happened? His numbers were in the top three of quaterbacks in the NFL.
So, it bothers me but only to a degree.
I know what kind of quarterback Baker Mayfield is.
And I am damn glad he plays for the Cleveland Browns.
I have no concerns for Baker going forward he will have his moments when he frustrates everyone including himself I am sure but he has learned how to manage a football game keep his mistakes in check and probably the most important lesson a QB can learn. The fat chick in the front row is always open sometimes she is the best play you can make and it's OK hit her.
He is gaining ground on what it takes to win you can call him whatever you choose as long as it's not a loser. I think in the long haul all of his detractors serve a great purpose, so I am sorta for it. In the end he will win it all that I am sure of. What else matters?
He has the one thing that matters most in a QB he is very accurate and he throws great on the run. I expect this season will see his completion percentages go up along with our win totals. Again what else matters?
I would add we all know what Baker stepped into it's truly not all that surprising that Allen and Lamar have had more success then he has to this moment in time prior to his arrival the Browns had won one game in 2 seasons. To think that in year 4 of his career in Cleveland we are where we are as a team is a testament to how well he has preformed. I think at some point the reality of everything Baker has accomplished will hit is detractors and if it don't who really cares just keep winning Baker like I know you will.
You kept wondering if those bozos watched a single Browns game last year. I'm sure they watched the Jets game, and the Giants game.
Figure this. According to National media searches, a look back at Baker Mayfields first game in the NFL, It was game #3, of 2018, the Browns vs. Jets, I'm not sure which stadium.
Tyrod Taylor was in the game trailing 0-14 for the Browns. Baker Mayfield comes in and puts up drives, that score 21 points and the team gives up 3.
Now, The National media won't give Mayfield credit for that win, After all, they are New Yorkers mostly.
In his first game he beat the Jets 21-3 basically, while he was on the field, and they want to give credit to Tyrod Taylor? (Just because he started)
I think they have sour grapes because they got stuck with Sam Darnold, never forget that.
And Never Forget Mayfields detractors are hoping he will leave your team so he can go play fantastic for their favorite team. How many Mayfield detractors really love Cleveland as a city, and say nice things about Cleveland in other contexts? I bet you'll find very few. Never forget these.
He has agents who are negotiating on his behalf. He pays the agents to get the job done.
He doesn't have to care about the extension because his agents know what baker wants.
It's the front office talking to the agents. So Baker can focus on getting the work done.
No doubt. Agents are limited to 3% of a players contract. Agents can get more if the player uses them for financial services as an example, and they can make 10-20% for endorsement deals they negotiate.
I agree with them that Baker probably is closer to a game manager type QB v a carry the team QB.
That said, you don't move on from that because he isn't just a game manager. He offers enough of the other to win a lot of games.
I see a lot of Theisman and the Redskins in Baker and the Browns O. Joe could chuck the ball around, but in the end it was the Hogs and Riggins that made that team click.
I see the current Browns much the same.
No offense but I think a conclusion that he's closer to a game manager likely leaves out some context. For example: Between his rookie year and second year how many times was it mentioned that Baker had to get out of his tendency to play hero ball? I think there was an attempt to do that under Freddie but everything about that system was so scattershot so who really knows. FFWD to last year under Ski.. Baker really reigned in a lot and focused on the fundamentals. His week to week progress demonstrates that.
I don't think we can have it both ways: criticize a guy for playing hero ball (i.e. trying to carry the team himself) then knock him for being a 'system QB' when he dials it back in order to perfect his craft.
And of course you could still be right and I know you aren't trying top bash the guy. I just think its a bit early to come to such an assessment for the simple fact that with the ridiculous amount of talent we have on Offense, Baker doesn't have to 'carry the team'. I'd even argue that whether Baker is or isn't, his job right now is to execute the system as taught and to make sure the ball gets where it needs to.
IMO the true test comes down the road as the amount of talent we have now starts to trickle away.
Wouldn't be funny if Baker plays out his contract and then goes "home" to either Dallas or Houston? Hahahahaha.....
Funny only if you are a Steelr Raven or Bengal fan.
The kid is a franchise QB.
What most don't appreciate is not his completion % but his accuracy on those completions that is what will make this kid an exceptional QB most of his completions hit the WRs right in the hands where he does not have to break strides. He also can hit those small windows when needed. He is probably one of the best leaders out there, our Defense loves him and thrive on his play. They are always excited and standing up to watch him play. We are lucky to have him here. IF we let him go it will be one of the worst moves by this franchise!
I think he's always going to have detractors because of how well the team can run the ball. Idiot fans will point to that as a crutch, despite having a strong running game is a nice thing to have?
I want him to keep developing, keep getting better. He is progressing nicely.
I want his decision-making when running with the ball to be as best as humanly possible. With this season being extended by another game, we need his availability. He needs to be Russ-level smart when taking off with the ball. Live to fight another day. Russ is so damn smart with that. One of the best I have ever seen.
What most don't appreciate is not his completion % but his accuracy on those completions that is what will make this kid an exceptional QB most of his completions hit the WRs right in the hands where he does not have to break strides.
I don't know about this. His accuracy is definitely a strong point in his game, but he's not pinpoint/hit guy in stride accurate. He puts a lot of balls high and a lot of balls behind his receivers...not uncatchably high or behind, but enough that the receiver has to make adjustments. We don't need to exaggerate his accuracy to think it's good enough, which I think most would agree that it is.
As far as the tight window throws, he indeed completes a lot of those. However, I wonder if that speaks less to his accuracy (relative to other QBs) and more to his aggressiveness: 1. I've seen plenty of other QBs do the same as Baker. (Was it Burrow last year in one of our games that absolutely fooled the camera crew it was squeezed into such a tight space?) But Baker just may make those throws more often, whereas other QBs take the check-down or another more open option. 2. Those tight window throws, whether aggressiveness, accuracy, or both, are also a big reason that he has his high INT history...a lot of balls that carom off the WR or closing DB. So tight window throws are not an unmitigated positive in a QBs game. He did a better job as the season went along taking the easy option, which I think is good. Nice to know he has the tight window throw in his toolbox, but it's better to be used judiciously.
[quote] I don't know about this. His accuracy is definitely a strong point in his game, but he's not pinpoint/hit guy in stride accurate. He puts a lot of balls high and a lot of balls behind his receivers ...not uncatchably high or behind, but enough that the receiver has to make adjustments.
Who are you talking bout' here? JOE BURROW?
Originally Posted By: thedawggene
1. I've seen plenty of other QBs do the same as Baker.
Oh we've got a wise-discussion here. The Smack shack is upstairs, last door on the left!
I disagree, because Higgins signed for too little imo.
It's a delicate balance, to keep everyone happy. If everyone in the NFL made a set same amount 2020 payouts would be like near 4 million every player. (based on a 200 million payout per team)
Signing for too little eventually can be as disruptive as signing for too much. Because eventually owners and unions have to agree it is not worth fighting but it's balanced enough to play.
So for that reason, I disagree that the player to be praised for how he handled his contract is Higgins, because Higgins appeared to rush to sign for the minimum. (Not the League minimum, but per his value he's, underpaid, imo.)
Dude, your takes are always so bad, I shouldbn't be surprised. I can put together a clip from the second half of 2020, when Baker has been at his best, and still show you numerous throws I'm talking about. So could you...watch any game highlight clip you want. It's frankly not even that controversial. So what if his ball placement is not always perfect? I was just pointing out the fact that it wasn't, and that many fans take Baker's strength and exaggerate them beyond the truth, which isn't necessary.
I am pretty sure Bake is a tier 2 QB at this juncture and I feel by seasons end this year he will be in tier one that was about where he landed at the end of last season and I expect he will pick up where he left off.
So far all the reports I have read on camp have him completing pass after pass they said day 2 he missed 2 throws. He is ready and the gun is loaded. He has been working at something this off season I would be curious to know what sort of home work Ski gave him for the off season.
I made a quarterback list, Baker was 8th on it. The problem is the New York starters were 44,45, 46th or not on the list. (44 Darnold, 45 Jones, 46 final working spot with Zack Wilson in the discussion, Ehlinger also). There are just backups or 3rd stringers that are better than them that's the bottom line. Baker is a top 6 quarterback in the league any time he plays, the only question is who are the other 5, it varies, so placing him 8th is underselling him.
2.71 Td drives per game, avg. one third of those the Rb is going to take it in. Baker is pretty awesome for a quarterback.
Just random chance you picked his most accurate game of the season by far, huh? (84% completion%). That's ok though...even in the highlight vid, which doesn't show all his passes, he has a few examples of what I'm talking about:
0:57 - Kareem reaches way back for a catch 2:21 - Bryant pulls down high screen pass 4:45 - TD to Landry probably had to be high & outside, but this play is interesting in that it is an example of Baker being unnecessarily aggressive and overlooking the easier pass, as Njoku was wide open in front of him. 5:02 - Behind (Hooper?) over the middle. At first I thought it was a "settle down in the zone" throw because there maybe was a defender bearing down, but no. That one should've led the receiver. 7:24 - DPJ has to slow stride and reach back for the ball.
Again, I'm not really even bothered terribly by these throws...just trying to be objective about it. Saying his pinpoint accuracy always hits guys in stride to allow for max YAC is just not true. And his tendency to throw high and/or behind does increase risks to our WRs.
Also, Dak's TD to Lamb to go up 14-7 and Burrow's TD to make it 17-10 in the comeback game are the type of tight window throws that many Browns fans want to say is unique to Baker. I view it as great that Baker is one of the QBs that can make these, but let's not be delusional about it.
IMO, this accuracy thing boils down to the 'Good-Baker vs Bad-Baker' effect. Baker looked awful in the first half of last season, then kinda turned things around (my understanding is that his mechanics calmed down the longer he was under our current coaching staff and as he gained confidence in the system). Regardless of the why's, Baker has always had a bit of Jekyll-Hyde to his game in terms of his accuracy.
There's that, too. Hopefully his "bad Baker" floor continues to rise, as it did in 2020. Not counting the Steelers game, because he had the rib issue. But even in Baltimore game 1 when we got trounced, he was way better than bad Baker in 2019.
Ultimately, we don't need him to be elite all the time (which he was not in 2020, no matter what binary thinkers say). He has shown the potential to play elite QB for short stretches, a half here, 1.5 games there. If he can be good enough in the reg season, and string together a hot streak in the playoffs, that's really all we need.
Baker at his best is like a hall of fame point guard, he can read the defense and can distribute the ball without regard to talent at WR in a deadly accurate fashion. He did this all throughout his college career. Best I have ever seen in that regard.
He has shown that many times in the NFL as well. See stretches with 20 straight completions (not something every NFL QB can do). He has also shown stretches of throwing high or making bad reads in the NFL, something I never saw out of him in college. I think that mostly has to do with offensive scheme disorganization (coaching) and Baker stressing to get the ball to Odell, rather than mechanics, per say. Per the error in the rankings, he can definitely take over a game and put a team on his back (see Cincinnati, Tennessee, and Baltimore games last year). So although many times we won't need him to do spectacular things during the season, he is fully capable, and that ability will definitely be needed in shootout games.
I fully expect him to take another step consistency wise this year and become a pro-bowler with a settled offensive scheme, personnel, and coaching behind him. My only concern is that treats Odell like anyone else out on routes and does not hinder his natural ability to distribute the ball. Hopefully, we will run some 2 minute offense this year to mix things up, which I think would help him and the team.
Attaching Baker highlights from last year to remind everyone his topend talent, which is easy to forget listening to the national haters out there.
Ido not enjoy being miss quoted. I praise his accuracy bu there is no such thing as "always". Point blank the kid is accurate in a different way so glad he is on our team, nuff said.
Dude, your takes are always so bad, I shouldbn't be surprised. I can put together a clip from the second half of 2020, when Baker has been at his best, and still show you numerous throws I'm talking about. So could you...watch any game highlight clip you want. It's frankly not even that controversial. So what if his ball placement is not always perfect? I was just pointing out the fact that it wasn't, and that many fans take Baker's strength and exaggerate them beyond the truth, which isn't necessary.
Haha. That is funny. And you show up exactly when his last offline activity was on this board in 2020. Lol. And you are acquainted with his posting persona. Hahahaha.
Baker at his best is like a hall of fame point guard, he can read the defense and can distribute the ball without regard to talent at WR
This is a good point BAKER. His ability to play at the same level appears to have little to do with receiving talent. Breshad Perriman and Ricky Seals-Jones are proof of that. This is why I’m not really worried about losing any wr/te not named Landry.
TROOPER, Not sure if you’re joking, but I’ve been around this board for going on 2 decades. Only times I posted heavily were during grad school, and mostly I’ve just lurked in the past decade. But I will speak up for VERS to an extent…when he wasn’t involved in dumb pissing matches with other posters, he had really interesting football opinions to share.
Oh, whoops. I see now posting from my phone that I apparently have 2 accounts. Haha, THAT’S how long I’ve been around, and how old and forgetful I am!
Someone made a big difference about Shoorters vs. Scorers in point guards, obviously scorers are better. Baker is a scorer, that's why he gets wins. Shooters might have 300 yards but lose.
Here is my Qb list iigias, I did make before last nights preseason games, the thing is, is there are only 32 nfl starting jobs. But that doesn't mean the best are starting. (for where they are wrong and should be moved up or down or removed from or added to the list. 1 Tom Brady 2 Aaron Rodgers 3.Patrick Mahommes ( KC 4. Josh Allen (buffalo 5. Benn Roethlsiburger (pitts 6 Russell Wilslon (Seattle 7. Matt Ryan (Atl 8# . Baker Mayfield (Cleveland Browns 9. Kirk Cousins (minn 10. Dakarist Prescott (Cowboys 11 Lamarr Jackson (Baltimore 12. Ryan Tannehill (Tennessee 13. Matt Stafford ( LA Rams 14. Derrick Carr (Lv Raiders 15. Cam Newton (patriots 16. Justin Herbert (LA chargers 17. Joe Burrow ( Cincinnati 18. Tua Taglaviola ( Miami 19. Kyler Murray ( ariz. 20. Jared Goff (Detroit 21. Jimmy Garopolo (49ers 22. Justin fields (chic 23. Carson Wentz ( indy 24. Trevor Lawrence ( Jacksonville 25. Case Keenum, Browns back up 26. Ryan Fitzpatrick ( Washington 27. Nick Foles ( Bears 3rd. 28. Mitch Trubiske ( buffalo back up 29. Teddy Bridgewater (Denver battle2 30. Dewayne Haskins (pitt 3 31. Marcus Mariotta (lv raiders 32. Taysome Hill ( New Orleans 33. Jalen Hurtz ( phila. 34. Drew Lock (Denver 35. Trey Lance (49ers, (name was originally mixed up) 36. Mason Rudolph (Pittsburgh 37. Zach Wilson, (jets. (originaly had Lance twice remembering the rookies names wrong 38. Mack Jones ( New England 2 39. Jameis Winston (saints battle 40. Andy Dalton (Chicago 41. Colt McCoy (Arizona 42. AJ McCarron ( Atlanta 43. Chad Henne ( KC 2 44. Sam Darnold ( Carolina 45. Daniel Jones ( NY Giants.
46. Tyrod Taylor (Houston 47. Joe Flacco (Philadelphia 48. Gardner Minshew (Jacksonville 49. Davis Mills ( Houston 50. Sam Ehlinger ( Indy. 51. Kellen Mond ( Minn. 52. Kyle Boller (LA rams 2 53. Jordan Love ( green baye 54. Brandon Allen ( Cincinnati 2 55. Garrett Gilbert ( dallas 2 56. Blaine Gabbert (tampa bay 4 beyond- other backups including Kyle trask in tampa bay Jacob Eason in indy, Dishone Kizer recently waived from Tennessee, Matt Barkeley who replaced him and many others. Heinecke, Easton Sthick, Chase Daniel, Kyle Lauletta, C.J. Beathard, Trace Mcorley, Geno Smith, and I think there is a rule that no qb list can continue past Geno Smith. But others.
Everyone has an opinion on these things, but I’m not seeing your logic here. I thought at first, you were demoting guys with short histories, but then Allen is top 5, Tua above Kyler and Goff, and Lawrence hasn’t taken a snap but is above more proven guys.
And clearly it isn’t on potential, as you don’t have Baker in top 5, and most of the young talented guys are all low. Is this just all on gut feeling? 2021 performance projection? Seriously, not trying to be snarky, just can’t follow your thinking with this list.
They had a current Steeler starter (Cam Heyward) talk up Baker? No sympathy from me, but that's brutal. You can see from the look on his face that he didn't enjoy saying a single part of that.
There's some cherrypicking of stats going on there. The Baker situation since he was drafted isn't as cut-and-dry as Greenberg likes to think. But what he's saying is why I'm having a hard time keeping excitement low for this season. Baker definitely has the capability, and we've finally put him under a coach that isn't a joke and have him operating within an org that is competent, if not well-run.
Everyone has an opinion on these things, but I’m not seeing your logic here. I thought at first, you were demoting guys with short histories, but then Allen is top 5, Tua above Kyler and Goff, and Lawrence hasn’t taken a snap but is above more proven guys.
And clearly it isn’t on potential, as you don’t have Baker in top 5, and most of the young talented guys are all low. Is this just all on gut feeling? 2021 performance projection? Seriously, not trying to be snarky, just can’t follow your thinking with this list.
Oh sure, I went and took several minutes searcing for the top 3 qbs' of each team franchise on google. I also started to make a top 10 list, and a bottom of the nfl list and a list of qb's a hater would put above Baker. Then I put the rookies in a group, gathered my opinions of what I've seen and heard over years of being a fan and just a fan, and only watching the sport from a fans perspective. And feelings of ups or downs and prejudging things like memories of , well like,( Alex Smith was talked up because he played 3 games back from his horrific injury in 2020, but he was so immobile, and a bad arm talent he never should have been given the roster spot except as a token of ya know good feelings, - things like that.) Then, largely I put them into small groups, you know like draft one by one, pick the very best as Qb 1, and then a lot of the time, it's if, if, if these 3, if 3 of these were on your team right now, Right now, no bs, who would you say, who could you get behind this player should start! this one should start! and then, part of it has to do with, you have to throw in what situation that Qb is actually in and what kind of year you would expect they may have in 2021, we can't totally disregard that.
So basically, I feel, I could get behind the arugment that everyone of those Qbs that are higher on my list, I'd rather start over any one of them lower on the list, if I had the choice of any two of them. (which obviously would invite some unforeseen undefendable position because of the size). (But Just do it! nike)
And, I've got Baker at #8, but that's bull because I still say on any given day, Baker is a Top 6 Qb in this league, consistently, every time, and the only thing that changes, is who the other 5 are. And I don't know squat about Easton Stickt and don't want to, so some were left off. If all were on the team, who could start in a depth chart order. I thought about 3 others, DeShaun Watson 5, Philip Rivers, and Alex Smith, and then Drew Brees also. (Texans Fans podcasts talk like Watson isn't an option to play.)
There is so much to like about everything Browns right now.
Team. A four letter word that seems to tell the whole story.
Everything that we can see spells team. KS has molded professionalism into the culture.
I could not be more stoked.
I am so pumped for this season I keep asking is this real?
And the great part it is. It's so different to come here and not have disagreements about really everything but instead all agree we have a great chance to win it all. The only thing left to do really is to enjoy it, support it and yeah throw a few back in celebration.
The sad part for me personally is I would truly love to make a game or two this year but I simply can't next year I think I will be able to if I can get these damned health issues behind me. But man I so look forward to hooking up with some Browns fans we all have been kicking it with for years and to just enjoy the moment and this is going to be a great year for us I just know it. The suffering is over.
I am the guy you see in the seats with tears streaming down his face cause I am so happy. The moments that I believe are about to unfold will stay with me for a life time I just know it.
I also believe that it would have happened sooner had he not come into such a dysfunctional situation.
I think that had we gone with Gregg Williams instead of Freddy Baker would be further along in his development. However, the Browns as a whole would be capped with how successful we could be whereas suffering through Kitchens to get to Stefanski has the sky as the limit.
Dude, your takes are always so bad, I shouldbn't be surprised. I can put together a clip from the second half of 2020, when Baker has been at his best, and still show you numerous throws I'm talking about. So could you...watch any game highlight clip you want. It's frankly not even that controversial. So what if his ball placement is not always perfect? I was just pointing out the fact that it wasn't, and that many fans take Baker's strength and exaggerate them beyond the truth, which isn't necessary.
Vers?
Originally Posted By: thedawggene
Haha, I wish I had his knowledge of the game, for sure. His attitude, maybe not so much. Sorry if you see it that way, though.
Originally Posted By: TrooperDawg
Haha. That is funny. And you show up exactly when his last offline activity was on this board in 2020. Lol. And you are acquainted with his posting persona. Hahahaha.
Which agenda was he onboard with? Hue didn't get a fair shot, or Sashi didn't get a fair shot, or Dorsey didn't get a fair shot?
VERS was abrasive and I never understood the "team FO" vs. "team coach" things that went on here, but he knew more football than I do, and more than most of you, from what I can tell. Speaking of, he and DIAM used to have it out quite a bit, and that was someone who knew a lot, too. Is he still around?
He finished at 48,522 posts. He was too smart for the board ("knew more than most of you") and was rewarded with entrance to posters Valhalla where abrasive posters duel all day and feast all night.
He finished at 48,522 posts. He was too smart for the board ("knew more than most of you") and was rewarded with entrance to posters Valhalla where abrasive posters duel all day and feast all night.
And what did happen to Diam?
Diamond is still around, he has said he has gotten tired (or bored) of posting.
He finished at 48,522 posts. He was too smart for the board ("knew more than most of you") and was rewarded with entrance to posters Valhalla where abrasive posters duel all day and feast all night.
And what did happen to Diam?
Diamond is still around, he has said he has gotten tired (or bored) of posting.
He's graduated to chucking grenades into PP and walking away.
I explain to these dolts that I watch every AFC North game and while I'm no QB guru, I've seen as much of Burrow as they have and they've seen precious little of Baker. The claims they make are hilarious.
