This is a post Emily had on her Instagram. She apparently liked it as well. I believe she has removed it. The local media is already all over this as well as Mayfield skipping his post game media session. He also walked off the field without shaking hands. Many are saying it was because he was booed. I have no idea what is going on.

I don't think they were booing him as much as they were booing the performance

I have no problem with her defending HIS toughness. Say what you want about the guy but he puts it all out there and none of us know how much he hurts.... calling other players toughness into question crossed a line.

And as I understand it, he shook hands with the Lions, he didn't shake hands with fans as he walked off as he normally does.

I did see another post(which I can't find) that had the part about the teammates blocked out. I don't think she was agreeing with that part but the optics are bad.

They showed him walking off the field directly after the kneel down. Maybe he turned around after the camera left him?

I think she should stay out of it. It just adds to the drama.

Blah blah blah Baker is tough. Newsflash Thanksgiving is also in November.
Everytime Baker has a below average game, his toughness is brought up
Why.......?
Oh yeah , something has dull.the sharp edge of his criticism's

Watching Justin Herbert play against that team in black and yellow. If Baker played quarterback at the same level of Herbert, we would be 9-2 and talking of potential Super Bowl.

Its that simple.

"Looks" like this latest drama may be the beginning of the end for the Baker Mayfield era in Cleveland.

Em clearing some things up after having a tough one...

Difference is that one player left the post up and the other had it taken down. mall but significant difference.

j/c

The post about Herbert is correct. It would all be much simpler and positive if Baker was as good as Herbert or Rodgers or whatever. Sadly, he’s not … and there is frustration from every angle that he’s not. I’m sure he is just as frustrated as the coaches/fans … and he’s injured to boot.

People better keep that same energy on her like they did OBJs dad. She runs her mouth the most out of any of our players significant others.

But I know y’all won’t. Cause somehow, it’s different.

I will talk about baker, however.

Dude missed wide open receivers all day. He thrown two horrible picks. Right now, the team wins based around our run game, not our #1 overall QB.

Thanks to baker mayfield crap performance and lack of sportsmanship, and his wife running her mouth on Twitter non stop, I’d be glad to see him walk. There’s a reason Stefanski doesn’t trust him, and we haven’t re-signed him.

I’m all for the players getting tough, just as soon as baker decides to play like a real QB.

Baker played one of his very worst games - while ironically or perhaps predictably, he also made a couple of sublime throws. As someone just wrote in Post Game - if ever there was a game and team to rest Baker against it was the 0-fer Lions. Tragically bad coaching decision to play Baker as banged up as he is. He's regressed at an epic proportion - I still think it's mainly the injury - but to be honest it does not matter. If he suits up and plays he needs to play at an NFL level and not like hot garbage.

Regards the social media posts by Emily - I don't like them one bit. Dumb. Dumb. Dumb. Doesn't help anyone. Only fuels the dislike and pressure for Baker. Someone should take away all her access to any social media until her high profile husband is retired.

However - with that said. Trying to compare her post defending Baker to OBJ trying to get out of Cleveland in a very calculated way, having never wanted to be in Cleveland, having screamed 'come get me' to other teams and who asked for a trade multiple times in the off season .... nah. Not the same at all. One was pure stupidity - the other was pure manipulation.

Honest question here...were you at the game? I was not.

On every reception (plus Hooper's early drop) with (2) exceptions the defensive player was all over the Browns pass catchers. Keenum doesn't make those throws. Maybe Baker missed "wide open receivers" but the ones he threw to were covered like a blanket.

I'll second 888 on the difference between Emily and OBJ's Dad.

Emily needs to chill. She's not helping anyone here, not even her own husband.

j/c:

Baker played like poop.

He was inaccurate all game long and threw high on the regular. I wasn't at the game but heard the boos on TV. They were warranted. Its funny seeing all the people who were ragging on Rish either (1) keep their internet warrior typing skills to a minimum or (2) even change their tune as well.

If Baker is injured and it is hindering him, he needs to sit. If its not that big of an issue with performance he needs to get his act together because this is not going to cut it.

I hope she (and by extension, he) gets the same amount of smoke up until she 'fixed' it.

She took it down and sorta/mostly apologized. She did NOT leave it up there and double down on it. That right there is the difference (IMO it's significant because it speaks to intent). Next step is seeing how Baker responds to it (he'll have to).

It's less than 24 hours after the game, and you're talking about Rish's critics not showing up? Rish went into hibernation second half of last season and only came back after Baker started slumping again. Plus, everyone is saying Baker played like poop. The callout is premature and not accurate (IMO).

You must have forgotten about last week's performance. Or Baker's performance in other games this season. Or people making fun of Rish after the Bengals games less than 24 hours--maybe that was you, I don't know. The sample size has been more crappy than not this season. The call out is more than accurate and timely.

I was all on Baker being THE guy going into the season. However, we're seeing more and more this season that he is not what we hoped....at least from a paying for a franchise QB perspective and we're seeing alot of 2019 and early 2020 as well even with a much, much better offensive line . Posters here can't handle criticism on his performance this season when it it staring at them in the face. Again, maybe this is you, I don't know.

j/c:

We really needed something to believe in (pre-Baker) and most of us thought he was the guy after the first season. Now I have my doubts, like a lot of us do. I don't know if it's the injuries or he's just somewhat lost it or a combination of the two.

Not knowing really sucks.

I don't see what you're seeing. I see just about everyone throwing criticism at Baker when he has a bad game (which have been many this season). Some attribute more of that to injuries than I do, but the criticism is there. Acknowledging that it's more than just Mayfield that's wrong with the offense is not absolving Mayfield.

So I haven't seen Baker's backers disappear after a poor showing from him like Rish did when they went on the tear last season.

Baker needs to go behind the Cheesecake Factory and
Get his head put on straight.
Colt McCoy is out playing him.BM is the worst QB in the
North.

Pun intended?

I think that Baker is really, really hurt, and other teams are doing their best to make sure he doesn't get better against him. I cannot imagine playing QB when you can barely walk because of injuries to a knee and foot .... along with a serious injury to a shoulder ... even a non-throwing shoulder.

I cannot understand, for the life of me, why we only had 3 WR active yesterday. To me that is just plain idiotic. Jarvis got hurt during the game, and so we were down to 2 WR.

I do think that Baker can and should handle some aspects of this year better. I think that this statement also applies to Stefanski.

We know Baker is injured, but is his knee and foot really that bad? Stefanski called a play designed for Landry to throw to Baker on a play. Do you call that play if he is that hobbled? He's sprinting around to celebrate with Landry after the broken play resulted in a TD.

A Browns fan complaining about a play that was designed by Stefanski to decoy the defense, opening up the middle of the defense to give Landry a lane to the endzone...and the play resulted in a TOUCHDOWN...

...YET SOME BROWNS FANS EVEN COMPLAIN ABOUT THAT...!

No. Here's Stefanski on the broken play that Landry made happen on his own.



https://twitter.com/ScottPetrak/status/1462533884407595014

Wide open receivers - lmao.

The Browns have probably the worst WR group of any team in the NFL and their TEs are not much better.

Team is built around the running game and the OL. When that aint working, the offense will suck.

Yes - Mayfield missed some passes - weather and injury related. He's currently a one-armed QB with bad wheels - get real.

If Baker had a physical blue collar working job he'd be on Temporary Disability. I believe he is really beat up and probably should sit down until he feels better.

I'm getting a little confused on that last paragraph. Are you saying that this year's OLine is better than '19 or '20? Or that 20's OLine was better than '19?

j/c...

I don't know how it was designed to throw to Baker, there was no misdirection or any effort made to actually get Baker open. Pre-snap, he and Landry just switched spots, the defender who was guarding Landry was still there to watch Baker run his little route. I know Landry looked back at Baker first, were they expecting the defender to NOT follow Baker out into the pattern and just let him run out there by himself, knowing full well that Jarvis can throw the football?

Jarvis just made a great play on what appears at first glance to be a rather poorly designed play.

I noticed that there was little separation by our receivers most of the game. I didn't post that - because when you comment factually on something like that they sometimes seem to get labelled as "excuses" ... what's sort of ironic, moronic or whatever you want to call it -- on Baker's worst throws, the WR was at their most open. Baker played badly, really badly. I wouldn't start him next week (this week) ... but it should not prevent other questions being raised about the ability of the WR's and the scheme. It sort of seems like feast or famine.

j/c...

This presser is quite interesting.

Only idiots boo the home team - ever.

1. False Equivalency; that is NOT the sort of post people would have complained about and it has NOTHING to do with the assertion of privilege.

2. There's nothing wrong with privilege. The entire concept of privilege has been given this immensely negative connotation as if it is something to be eschewed and torn down, but quite simply, Rank Has Its Privileges. It is nothing of the sort, it is something to be sought & earned.


This is a prime example of the dumbing down of this world. Just because something is posted in the internet, people take it and run with it without putting an ounce of thought into whether or not it hold any validity at all. All they're looking for is a quoteable postable that echoes their feelings.

milk...so what the hell is it you are complaining about...?

Stefanski said he wished he could take credit for the play, saying it was just a great player making a great play. Mayfield was covered so it was proper read by Landry who saw the middle open up and tood advantage of the Lions opening up the middle, leaving clear path to the endzone.

...and who was the 2nd guy to congratulate Landry for the TD...Mayfield.

So, I honestly don't understand how you could be upset about Landry not throwing the ball to Mayfield, who was covered and instead Landry taking advantage of hole the Lions left right up the middle and to the end zone for a TD.

BTW, had Landry executed the play as designed, it very well could have been a pick 6 for the Lions.

I see you are confused here. At no point did I complain about the play call or the result of a TD as you seemed to have imagined. My comment was in this clip Baker seems to be sprinting around after the play celebrating with Landry and was not showing signs of being hobbled.

You then incorrectly stated that Stefanski had purposely designed this play call to clear out space on a designed run. You even stated it with some gusto!

You seem to be tilting at windmills here.

You have just won the award for biggest understatement of the year award on Dawgtalkers.net!

So is it then your assertion that both Baker and the team doctors are all lying to us that he's able to play? Because they all say he's ready. I'm not trying to say he isn't suffering from injuries. I'm saying they wouldn't be giving him the green light to play if he wasn't able to. That's why I don't buy into the, "He's damned near ready for a wheelchair" argument.

He seemed fine early on and even ran it decently well for a QB who's hobbled, but he also got a little more banged up on a couple plays later on in the game.

Not according to Baker and the team doctors. Do you have some inside information to back up this claim? Or are you saying the team doctors and Baker are lying to us?

Mayfield was the second gut to congratulate him. He and his bad leg sprinted right over there!

I ws at the game. He was moving like a gimp after half.

I don't think the Dr's are lying, nor Baker. Dr's aren't saying the guy is 100% or 75%. They are simply saying there is no serious physical reason he can't play. As an example, a player could play on a sprained ankle, but he might not play well.

I think in general players are one of two types. Anything less than 100% is a problem, or they think nothing is a problem that can impact their play. I think the coach is the one who needs to tell a player, no, you are not playing this week no matter what you or the Dr's say.

NOPE. Not the same. She's his wife, not his meddling daddy. And she's a fan. All the Odell lovers are trying this... Odell left on his own BEFORE he was run out. She's not in that position. Odell was a BUM here. BUM.

And I like Baker. I never really like OBJ. I can barely remember him when he was a good player. All I can see is a me me me guy. You know, a diva. And GBush is just trying to promote his lame ass Ytube show. Quincy been doing a lot with him lately. He's like watching paint dry.

But I do have a serious question for you Swish. I'm noticing people who acted mind blown after Odell's daddy and him played their game... they made negative comments or comments of disbelief... yet here they are this week acting like Odell didn't get exactly what he wanted OR that the Browns somehow didn't treat him fairly... BS. Odell had opportunities, a good team to work with, and plenty of people in his corner... he wasn't successful here because he COULD NOT PERFORM or simply underperformed. Yes, he may not have had as many opportunities as he would have liked, but catching the damn ball might have solved that. Truth is, he was a blowhard diva who didn't do a damn thing for this team.

There are many players who play hurt, and I think that Mayfield is one of them.

We don't pretend that a WR playing through an ankle or knee (or even shoulder) injury is going to be the same player he was without the injury. We don't pretend that an OL or DL playing with an injury is the same as he was without the injury. Players, especially a QB, want to play no matter what. Sometimes they just can't go, and it is the responsibility of the coaches and doctors to recognize this. Many players, through the years, refused to take themselves off the field, even when they had concussions. The teams has to see when a player is just hurting himself, and the team in the long run.

As little faith as I have in Keenum, I would start him against the Ravens, and let Mayfield have 3 weeks to heal up as much as he can for the stretch run.

"winning has not been a common thing around here"

That's Baker telling all you booing pieces of sh@#&*#@*&t to go f yourself. Love it.

I watch a lot of ESPN.

Yeah insult the fanbase, that's a mature response that's likely going to play out well for him in the long run. Most successful players do that all the time. Dude isn't even mentally and emotionally mature enough to ignore that stuff, understand it's just noise, and persevere and overcome. If he just ignores it and plays better, he'd be cheered and nobody remembers this. No instead he storms off the field, refuses to shake hands in a tantrum and then after cooling off decides it's a good idea to insult the fanbase. I might think twice about cheering for him next time.

Who advises this guy LeChina James?

If you "love that" - my response to you would be "go root for Buffalo".

We've seen enough horrible football here over the years to recognize it pretty well. Baker's play certainly qualifies. Don't like the boos? Suck it up buttercup and either admit you're too injured to help the team win, or play better.

J/C... trying to make sense out of this...

Game 1- against the SB champs.. KC wins 33-29...Baker was 21/28- 321 yds ..0 TD and 1 int... 2- TD runs by Chubb, 1 by Hunt and 1 by Landry.. Mahomes was 27/36 337yds 3 TD

Game 2- Browns 31-Texans 21.. Baker injures his shoulder... Baker 19-21- 213 yds.. 1 TD ..Chubb 1.. Janovich 1 Felton 1..

Game 3- Browns 26-Bears 6... Baker 19-31- 246 yds .... Look at the c/att rate compared to the previous games...

Game 4- Browns 14- Vikings 7.. Baker 15/33-155 yds.. Hunt 1-TD Andraes Williams 1TD Defensive TD

Game 5- Browns 42-Chargers 47.. Baker 23/32-305 yds.. 2 TD.. Chubb 1.. Hunt 2.. Njoku 1.. Higgins 1

Game 6- Browns 14-Cardinals 37..Baker 19/28 234 yds..2 TD.. DPJ's 2 TD

Game 7- Browns 17-Broncos 14.. Baker 21/33 199 yds.. 1 TD.. D' Johnson 1 TD .. Stanton 1 TD

Game 8- Browns 10-Steelers 15.. Baker 20/31 225 yds.. 0 TD.. D' Johnson 1 TD

Game 9- Browns 41-Bengals 16.. Baker 14/21 218 yds.. 2 TD.. Chubb 2.. DPJ 1.. Njoku 1.. Ward and Johnson "D" 1 each..

Game 10- Browns 7-Patriots 45.. Baker 11/21 73 yds 1 TD.. 1 int... move on..

Game 11- Browns 13-Lions 10.. Baker 15/29 176 yds.. 1 TD.. 2 int... Landry / Chubb both 1 each Landry a run and Chubb a receiving TD..

I didn't factor in the Special Teams points.. or did I factor in the Defensive Play which was not very good most games... Not trying to make Baker look good or bad..looking at facts on Baker because this is a Thread about him..

Clearly after his shoulder injury things drop off as we all know.. I also see signs of hope..

Bakers first year as a rookie saw his first HC (HUE) fired after 8 games..Then a DC comes in as a Interim HC.. Then he had another new coach the season after with Freddie Kitchens..Then the season after that yet another new HC on top of a GM... Baker has dealt with a lot of adversity as a young QB...And honestly handled it pretty dang well !

I'm not the biggest Baker fan, and also not the biggest hater... I feel like the guy has tried more then any QB this team has had for some time...

Are the injuries really hurting or is there more turmoil inside the building us fans don't know about... I don't know, but after the injuries the c/att really goes down..Yet he still gave his best.. Did it hurt the team who knows..
Been awhile since I've seen a Browns QB that tried.

This season has had horrible defensive play and Offensive play calling... Again expectations were way to high at the end of last season going into this season..

Still got a chance to get a wild card spot... Whether Baker is the guy in the future or not.. He's the QB for this team as of now... like him or not...this has been a team disappointment from all three sides of the ball including the coaching staff !!

I feel he should of been sat for the Lions game.. I'd rather see him get healed and rested for the up coming games we need him for...Like it or not..he needs our support as fans to help him get through this..Media expectations along with fan base seems to be tearing this all apart ! until a change, this is what we got !

Sometimes in life when things aren't going your way and your feeling down and you feel no support ... ya get feeling worse until someone reaches out that shows they care and wants to help you get back on your feet and succeed ! just alittle support and caring might just help turn things around !

I'm with you on the receivers....

Fair to say I've been a staunch Baker supporter prior to day 1. I can also tell you he's played like crap at times. He would probably say the same. I'm also not that worried about it or am I going to cry out hoping we end up with Russell Wilson or Aaron Rodgers. That's not really feasible. Nor is it really feasible to draft a rookie QB and have him lead us to the promised land in year 1. I really don't think we will move on from Baker barring something major.

I don't believe doctors are lying. I believe Baker is hurt, but he can still run these plays. You also don't want to show a signs of weakness. Have you ever played basketball and broke a finger, taped it up and went back out there and made some shots? Yeah, same thing. His knee hurts but he can still run.

I also 100% believe that his injuries are affected his throws. It's not an excuse because he's definitely had some bad throws probably unrelated to the injuries. I also see both Baker and his coach saying that his injuries are not affecting his throws. They aren't going to tell anyone his injuries are affecting his throws even if they are or are not. Both Baker and Stefanski are smarter than that. The media is sick.

As far as resting his injuries, the options are playing thru it or shutting him down for the season. We are fighting for a playoff spot, if he can play he will and should play. His injuries require surgery. There's no resting him this week or next week to help him heal. He won't heal until the offseason. If Keenum was the better option he would have began the season as the starter. Case is underwhelming.

Yes, there are times Baker has played poorly, but there's a good reason why he was the #1 overall pick. And it wasn't a misfire on the part of the Browns. If Baker hits the open market he'd be snatched up quickly. There are still teams that live him. I'd imagine the Saints are on the top of that list. Mac Jones has played well, but the little hooded one LOVES Baker. If he ever left NE he would be gunning for Baker as his QB.

He's had some bad moments this year but we are going to be fine. Relax.

I don't think much of what is said here is remotely true.

I don't believe he's insulted the fanbase. I'm not insulted. In fact I think it's rather embarrassing as a fan to see and hear those boos from other fellow fans. That's much more insulting.

I don't think I've heard Baker complain... about anything... ever. I think there are some things in house that we are not privy to... things that if we were we'd be saying they should keep those things in house. I never once heard Baker say OBJ ran the incorrect route although we know now he did, a lot. I think Baker's actually ignored the boos and doesn't care. He is fully aware and understands what he needs to do. In the end he's not alone going up against the fans. The great Bernie Kosar has been booed and even benched. It happens.

I also don't think his wife is an issue. I'd imagine she posted what she did to Instagram after reading the first part and then realized after reading the whole thing it was not as good/helpful to get her point acrossed as she thought...⁵ so she deleted it. I don't think the intent was to call out Baker's teammates. But that's what the media saw. They're sick.

If you're going to think twice about rooting for Baker or you don't love his response to the boos - my response to you would be "go root for Buffalo."

Tim Couch drama 2.0

Into the basement we go because one player is more important than a team.

I found the comment childish... fans have every right to boo... if a player can't handle it then play better...

Totally agree. We pay their salaries, we're spending money and time for the experience. I don't believe in the nasty heckling stuff, but we have every right to voice our displeasure when they perform well below expectations.

this is why we can't have nice things.

Oh well none have us has said something that we wish we had not

I am a big supporter because I absolutely loved it when we drafted at 26.

j/c

I think is is quite reasonable to believe that Baker's injuries are contributing to a lack of consistency in his throws....which can lead to hesitancy in confidence and decision-making. He's always been very accurate and has - at times - struggled with decision-making. He looked like 2nd half 2020 Baker the first 1.5 games this year...then the wheels came off the entire wagon.

I hope we don't see Keenum this Sunday. He cannot make the throws that Baker can make to wide receivers and TEs who simply cannot get separation. He just can't. Not many backups can...if any. Maybe Baker won't or can't either...but he has done it in games since the injury bug started to bite. I think the coaches see that during the week and that's why they keep playing him. If the coaches think Keenum gives us a better chance, he'd be playing.

The idea that Baker is being selfish for continuing to play reeks of butt-hurt Buckeye fans who still can't let it go. What QB has EVER said he couldn't play when he himself felt like he could? That selfish claim is absurd. I'd ask you to re-read the underlined sentence above.

I’m not or ever have been on the Mayfield train. His ditsy wife makes me wave that train on by with more angst. I still don’t like that waste of a #1 pick. Another monumental Browns historic whiff in the draft. Sign him or don’t sign him but as one of the commentators for that horrid game this past Sunday said, you don’t win in the NFL without a franchise QB. If they aren’t going to sign him they better have a plan. #DumpMayfield

It is childish, and it looks especially bad after sulking off the field after the Detroit win. Not meeting the media, according to what he said, sounded like the more mature thing to do but by making childish comments it sounds like he hasn't totally gotten himself under control. It's not a great look.

but

IMO, this "go f yourself" attitude is kinda necessary when dealing with certain elements of our fanbase and our local sports media. I don't have a problem with the attitude itself, but maybe more some of his delivery. I think his comments were only directed to a certain portion of the fanbase... and if you're confused as to who that is and/or you're butthurt about him having the audacity to utter a word against fans, then it is probably aimed at you.

To be clear, the above paragraph and what I'm saying is necessary about his attitude is limited to some of those comments after the game. I'm NOT on board with him sulking off the field and I'm not on board with his wife acting like his bodyguard on social media. I think she did the right thing on apologizing and taking it down, but you would think she would have a little extra awareness on that stuff when we're fresh off the OBJ drama.

Incorrect. The issue with “privilege” whether you like it or not is when preference is given to someone or a group when they have not earned that preference. It also applies when barriers are erected to prevent others from the same opportunities because a privileged group does not want others to have that access.

Rank has its privileges is derived from monarchical/feudal and/or military rankings.

The dumbing down of the world includes having blinders on to anything that challenges the belief structures held by people and groups of people. That includes experts being pooh-poohed because their expertise in a field is at odds with a prevailing myth/belief.

Back to Baker. It seems that Baker has regressed. Whether that is due to the condition of his body we here do not know although we can hazard a guess. If he is suddenly growing radar ears and letting that impact his play through impacting his temper then that is a problem. It is necessary for athletes to have a thick skin. I realize that there are likely many who do not but the reality is that athletes have been accorded positions and preferential treatment due to their ability to play a game or perform an activity that the general public lacks the ability to do. Thus the public invests, rightly or wrongly, in these persons and expects performance. When said performance does not happen the public feels entitled, rightly or wrongly, to vent their spleen. This is part and parcel of the concept of “bread-and-circuses”. Of course, common courtesy should prevail but that window was closed long ago. As for booing the home team? How do many think athletes felt when seeing fans show up with paper bags on their heads or engaged in some other method of showing displeasure? The public expects a certain level of performance and not seeing it raises their ire. Anti-social media simply allows for attacks shielded by relative anonymity.

Being medically cleared to play and being able to play at, or close to, 100% are two completely different things. Everybody has a role to play in this:

Players's job is to rehab and do whatever he can to be able to play and most athletes will say they want to go unless they are just physically unable to move.
Medical staff's job is to determine if the injury could be made significantly worse by playing and poses any longer term chance for damage.
Coach's job is to determine that if Baker says he wants to play and medical staff says he's allowed to play, SHOULD HE PLAY or is his playing detrimental to the team and would the back-up give us a better chance to win.

Since the beginning of the season, you have gone out of your way to deflect blame away from Stefanski and the coaching staff.. you have stated the blown coverages weren't their fault, just the fault of young players, the penalties aren't their fault, they are the fault of undisciplined players, some of the stupid play calls aren't their fault, every play will work if executed properly... and now you are acting as if they are powerless to sit Baker if Baker and the medical staff say he is ok to play, when, in fact, they have the final decision on whether Baker goes on the field or not regardless of what anybody else says.

I agree. I said as much earlier. There is a difference between being able to play and being able to play well.
The Dr.'s aren't saying he won't play without limitations. They are simply saying there is no medical reason he can't. It's up to the player to say if he feels well enough, and the coach to determine if he can play well enough.

Translation. She's a meddling wife and not a meddling dad. So that makes it different. OBJ's dad isn't a fan of his son but Bakers wife is a fan of Baker.

So while I've asked this of other people I'll ask it of you. Do you honestly believe that the coaching staff is seeing this inaccurate Baker who can barely complete 50% of his passes on Sunday all week in practice and still starting him? Or do you believe he is more accurate in practice is why they are starting him on Sunday? While I suppose it's possible his accuracy could be terrible in practice all week and they start him anyway, that pill seems a little hard to swallow.

If I was him, and I was out there busting my ass trying to do the best I can, and I heard people boo me, I’d be salty as hell as well. To think these players don’t have the same reactions, or shouldn’t have the same reactions, as “normal” people, is silly. The whole fan mindset of “I pay your wage, I can do what I want.” is the height of entitlement.

Not having the ability to recognize that your play is hurting your team is not a sign of strength.

I could offer up a few speculative answers... and no, I don't think he looks wildly inaccurate in practice, if he does, then starting him is completely on Stefanski....

1. I think some defenses have found better ways to confuse our offense (Baker and Stefanski).. the Patriots game looked like the best example of that, this game looked to be more about missing open WRs, the Patriots game looked to be more about being confused by the defense.

2. I've haven't played QB since I was 9 years old, but I played a lot of baseball when I was younger... if you have a ankle/knee injury, it's very possible to throw well when you are stationary and you have time to step and throw normally in controlled environment, but in a game when you are moving, shifting, adjusting, hurrying, off-platform trying to throw, the effects of the injury are much more impactful in your ability to throw with accuracy and velocity. I would suspect the same is true of throwing a football. So in practice, with the red jersey on and no fear of being hit, he can stand and throw with footwork and proper motion and probably throw reasonably accurately, but in the game with all of the movement and the shifting and the possibility to get hit it's possible the injury becomes much more noticeable. This is the best explanation I can come up with that would explain some of the absolutely beautiful throws he made Sunday in contrast to some of the ones that were absolutely horrible.

That actually doesn't sound like a bad explanation if you feel they don't ask Baker to move around or practice roll out plays during practice. I would hope they do especially if they are making any attempt to see how his injury might impact his play on game day.

Maybe.. but I understand the athlete's perspective to want to play and fight through it... and the emotion involved....

Not recognizing that a player is hurting your chances to win, if the back-up gives you a better chance to win, is a much bigger flaw in the coaching staff, who is supposed to be looking at this objectively with all of the information, the tape, and no emotional ties one way or the other.

I don't disagree with you. As I think you know, it's my belief he has been performing well in practice and it's gotten to the point the coaching staff is going to have to realize that what they're seeing in practice isn't translating on game day.

I'm assuming that at some point you have had an injury to a knee, ankle, even lower back, shoulder and tried to play a sport or do physical tasks for work.... I've had all of them... you can protect those injuries when you are in a controlled environment, even rolling out or moving you can stay in a controlled environment since it's practice and you know you are aren't going to get hit so when it's time to throw, you can get your feet right and step and throw and avoid significant pain... in a game all of that luxury goes away and the slightest deviation from the movement that protects your injury shoots pain through your body.

I have had really bad low back issues at different times in the past, even with it flaring up I am able to use the push mower to cut the grass, pick things up off the floor, even lift heavier objects over my head.... because I do it slowly and under control, using proper form... know when it hurts the worst? When I momentarily forget about it and bend down too quick to put my socks on or turn quickly from the waist instead of moving my feet... then it brings real tears to my eyes... it's the little stupid things when you stop thinking about it that hurt.

I'm not saying this is going on with Baker, just stating that it is possible to look reasonably accurate and efficient in practice but then in the heat of the game, hit that spot where the injury reminds you, when you plant your foot or turn your waist but not your ankle.. that it's there

j/c...

Kevin Stefanski and Baker Mayfield aren’t making each other better
Updated: Nov. 22, 2021, 12:41 p.m. | Published: Nov. 22, 2021, 8:35 a.m.

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- With just over seven minutes left in the third quarter Sunday, his team ahead by two scores, Baker Mayfield double-pumped and fired a sideline pass 45 yards through the air to a fourth-string deep option.

That 37-yard gain to JaMarcus Bradley -- not the departed Odell Beckham Jr., not the injured Donovan Peoples-Jones or Anthony Schwartz -- put Mayfield at 14 of 22 passing for 177 yards in 38 minutes of action against the Detroit Lions. It was his second-longest completion in a month. Wyatt Teller high-fived him. Mayfield looked ready to roll.

He would manage one completion the rest of the game.

Over the next 22 minutes, the Browns snapped the ball 25 times. They handed it to a running back 13 times, were called for penalties that wiped out plays three times, saw Mayfield sacked once, had him scramble once, and seven more times Mayfield threw the ball.

Those throws created five incompletions, one interception and one completed tight end screen for a loss of a yard. Instead of definitively putting the game away, the Browns were holding on for dear life against a winless foe, escaping with a 13-10 win that felt as close to a loss as a victory could for a team in a playoff race.

Why? Because it felt like the Browns were trying to win while avoiding their quarterback. Why? Because a Mayfield-Kevin Stefanski relationship that at its peak last year brought out the best in both doesn’t appear to be serving either of them at the moment. Too aggressive at times, not aggressive enough at others, the plan of a supposedly efficient play-caller and supposedly accurate quarterback isn’t working. They are grinding against each other. On few other teams does throwing the ball look this difficult.

This is only a football observation, not a relationship observation, based on unproductive offense and not Mayfield’s apparent postgame frustration.

But something has to change. Right now, Stefanski might be respecting Mayfield too much, while not trusting him enough.

Clearly Mayfield is hurting, his injuries mounting, but Stefanski keeps putting Mayfield out there while citing his toughness. Mayfield is given the respect of a franchise quarterback. But heart only goes so far. Because once the Browns gained a little breathing room Sunday, they turtled. It’s a fine line between putting a game away with Nick Chubb, and trying to run out the clock without putting the game on your quarterback. Sunday felt as much like the latter as the former, because Stefanski doesn’t trust Mayfield, or at least this version of Mayfield, like a franchise quarterback.

The result is the worst of both worlds -- a quarterback who is playing but not functioning.

Maybe this is the best that a second-year coach and injured quarterback can do, limp through the season, patch together an offense and hope to survive. But Mayfield, and the offense, looked better in the first half when the Browns were playing to win as opposed to trying to hold on.

Against the Patriots last week, Mayfield was 0 for 7 on passes 10 yards down the field.

Sunday, he hit a few in the first half, and then another to Bradley. But there was little flow. The idea isn’t to criticize every single play call, but when a team has scored 17 points or fewer in five of its last six games, the search for offense never ends. After the Bradley completion, the Browns ran it twice with Chubb, and on third-and-1, Mayfield threw a deep shot down the middle to Bradley in double coverage. A completion wouldn’t have mattered, because right tackle Blake Hance was called for a hold on the play, and on the ensuing third-and-11, Mayfield was sacked.

For lots of offenses, especially one unafraid to go on fourth down, a third-and-1 deep shot can be smart. For this one, that was a time to run it again. Then give Mayfield a chance with a fresh set of downs.

Imagine if this Browns season was Stefanski’s audition tape for a job, the way his 2019 season calling plays for the Vikings was the final piece of the Browns hiring him. Think of all he would have to be explaining away. Yes, right tackle Jack Conklin and running back Kareem Hunt are out, Beckham is gone and Mayfield is limping. The weather Sunday wasn’t great. But 13 points against the Lions, who had allowed 28 points per game coming in? What GM would be impressed with this recent offensive display?

This is not a plea to play Case Keenum. Unless Mayfield can’t physically execute what Stefanski wants, and the Bradley throw would indicate otherwise, I think starting Keenum week-to-week really puts a cap on this offense.

But if Stefanski is going to respect Mayfield, he has to force himself to trust Mayfield. And if his coach is going to trust him, the quarterback has to reward that, or prepare to be benched. I don’t think the Browns have to sit Mayfield before a game for health. But they have to be ready to sit him during a game based on production, whether that’s health-related or not.

Toughness is admirable, but production is non-negotiable. Right now, the Browns are back to the beginning of last season with the passing game … but at least then they were scoring and winning during Mayfield’s struggles.

Compare Mayfield’s last five games this season to his first five games this season and to the first six games last season before things clicked in.

Last five games 2021, average:

* 16 for 26 passing, 185 yards, 7.1 yards/attempt, 17 points per game, 2-3 record

First five games 2021, average:

* 19 for 29 passing, 248 yards, 8.6 yards/attempt, 28 points per game, 3-2 record

First six games 2020, average:

* 17 for 28 passing, 182 yards, 6.4 yards/attempt, 27 points per game, 4-2

Mayfield’s yards per game and yards per attempt now are close to his rough start last year. But the Browns scored 10 more points a game at the beginning of 2020 compared to this recent run.

The Browns worked through Mayfield growing pains in the Stefanski offense a year ago and came out the other side. The struggles were in pursuit of something, and the Browns managed to score and to win through them.

Now, the Browns are at the other side again. They have to come out of this against Baltimore next Sunday. The offense performances of the last two weeks won’t be close to enough to beat the Ravens. Yes, the Browns beat the Lions, but if Cleveland wasn’t playing a winless team on its third-string quarterback, that would have been a loss.

No one should think of Mayfield like a franchise quarterback right now. That’s not an indictment of Mayfield’s future, but a necessary mindset for the moment. Stefanski should make Mayfield prove it every week, by allowing Mayfield to prove it every week. Shake it up. This offense isn’t working. There’s no point in Stefanski respecting Mayfield if he doesn’t trust Mayfield.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...g-each-other-better-doug-lesmerises.html

I pretty much agree with all of that. And the difference in our scoring last year compared to this year, despite similar QB production is pretty simple.. our red zone efficiency last year for TDs was 73.3%, 4th in the NFL.. this year it's 57.4%, 19th in the NFL.. Our 4th down attempts are also up this year but our successes are not...

So redzone efficiency for TDs dropping by almost 20% plus going for it on 4th down a lot more (unsuccessfully).. that's about 1 TD and 1 FG per game.. that's 10 points.

I think you have an extremely valid point. I think you know that I have been in the construction field for most of my life and as such the type of injuries you have described go along with the territory. So I understand the point you are making. I've even had major back surgery. I played for two weeks in high school football with my thumb broken in seven places. It was actually below the thumb itself between the thumb and the wrist. Finally with the bruising and swelling not getting better I was pretty much forced to get x-rays. So I know what you're saying all too well.

And I guess the controlled environment could play a part. I just believe that the coaching staff would require him to do things in practice that would test the impact those injuries would have on his performance. That they would simulate game speed to get a better feel for it. Make him roll out and move around in the pocket. I don't know the answer for sure one way or the other.

Not incorrect on any level. It IS a false equivalency, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with privilege.

You inserted your own conditions to create your perception of privilege being a negative.

I don't mind the go F yourself attitude at all... if it leads to him playing lights out this week or him realizing he needs to heal... I agree that I love the chip on his shoulder because it's needed for this team... but it's a fine line... especially when you're getting worse as the year goes on

And the win loss column, or the feelings of fans, or the Pride of Cleveland
So into the Basement, with an injured Qb who can't throw accurately playing,
"Play him until his arm falls off! Hot! Dog! It! we're gonna save some money!" Puke Emoji, puke emoji.
Fixed it for ya.

Either way, into the basement,

Who is booing the player?
They are booing the coach for playing the wrong blank blank Quarterback! If the coach can't handle it, open his eyes and play the healthy players.

They have a history of playing injured players other times this year.
Jedrick Wills. and probably Hunt and Landry.

Where is the entire Browns team going to be, the entire organization going to be
IF.

The decision to continue to trot out an injured quarterback into NFL games week after week, results in another injury,
a season ending, or career jeopardizing injury.

Where ya gonna be then
Where ya gonna be then
Where ya gonna be then.

They could fix all of this if they locked everybody in a room until they had a contract extension based on last years play. And do it today.
Then they could put anyone injured on 3 week IR, or not, based entirely on their actual healthiness.

If they signed a contract extension today, best news possible, even if it were short term or long term.
If they did, what would that mean? If they never agree on a future contract what would that mean?

I tell ya there is not one of the other 31 franchises that has the Browns' best interests in mind. Every single one of them wants to talk your good players off of your team.

That is actually is an interesting perspective.

The one thing that was not mentioned was defense both ours and the defenses played against.

The end result is inconsistent play. There are reasons but thay are difficult to pin down.

Injuries for have played a big part. Lots of players on offense have been out and some have been playing with injuries.

The Browns offensive scheme requires timing. It is based upon timing. Execution on offense is everyone doing their job.

Going into this season of promise. Odell and Jarvis are highest paid receivers were expected to be a dynamic duo. Both of them have not produced.

Odell was expected to start the first game. He didn't. He said he was not ready?

Jarvis missed games and Odell left town.

Wills was hurt early and played but has not been all that good. Conklin our pro bowl RT has been replace by a out of position second string guard.

Kind of hard to have chemistry and timing when all of that is factored in.

I didn't proof read. damn.

"are"? I need that second cup in the morning.

Exactly. I'm not trying to excuse the behavior... he needs to be a big boy and do the song and dance after the game regardless if his feelings are hurt or not. But I don't mind most of the snark in PCs and I think, overall, the attitude behind it all is necessary to be a QB for this team right now.

We put these players in a pretty tight box, we want them to show emotion and fire.. but only when, and in a way, that we are ok with.. and I'm sorry, but human emotion doesn't always work that way.

Did these same fans boo the defense when it was getting gouged with big running plays? Did they boo our kicker when he missed a FG or had an XP blocked? Did they boo when the OL had consecutive stupid penalties negating big gains as we were trying to finish off the game? Have they booed any of the idiotic playcalling in the red zone?

Maybe it's just because he's the QB, maybe it's because he was the #1 overall pick, maybe it's because some are still sensitive because he planted the flag at the Shoe.. I don't know, but Baker has done nothing since he's been here except give it his all and try to win.. and, by Browns standards over the past 30 years, he has been more successful than anybody who has tried before him.... yet he has remained the most polarizing figure that I can think of when it comes to fans and even talking heads, for some reason have always viewed him as having a target on his back... So when he's out there limping around on a bad ankle/knee, throwing with significant damage in his non-throwing shoulder, taking the hits, etc.. and then getting booed for it when he makes a mistake even though nobody else gets booed when they make a mistake....... yea, I get it when he doesn't always live up to your expectations..

Couldn't agree with you more, DC.

My sentiments exactly.

Just thinking out loud. Baker is a guy that I happen to believe in. My beliefs really mean nothing to anyone but me I guess... I do think that playing him when he's this banged up will not only cost us wins, but it may also put him in danger of getting banged up even worse.

It might be a thought to keep in mind, Baker wasn't this regimes pick.. He was the previous regimes pick. So maybe that's part of the reason they haven't gone out of their way to lock him up long term. I'm not suggesting this as fact, but more like something to think about.

He recognizes it, he just doesn't care because he is doing everything in his power to look like a great qb. It just isn't working out for him and he's frustrated now. He's hearing it from the media and the fans and now its boiling over.

I totally agree with you. Yet this is the NFL and these guys make millions. As such, fan reactions and dealing with the press are part of the job. Some people can step up, admit their mistakes and put their best foot forward in these situations. Some can't.


How does this make any difference in how Baker reacted? And I do agree that the QB takes more heat and is under more scrutiny that any other position in the NFL. That applies for all 32 staring QB's, not just Baker. Once again, every QB knows this going into it. It was the exact same way when they played in high school and in college. This isn't new territory for them, it's just on a bigger stage.



First, if he's unable to play he shouldn't be playing. Secondly, this didn't happen after "one bad play". It happened during his second totally crappy performance in a row. I can't think of anyone who gives a flying F about the "attempted" flag plant. We heard this same kind of BS when Braylon was here. They claimed people didn't like him because he played for Michigan. We see how that turned out. Once someone puts on a Browns uniform they are a Brown. I watched Baker mature greatly since he was first drafted. I gave him grief when he acted immaturely and I gave him credit when he started acting more mature.

Here's the thing. I don't uphold the fans for booing Baker. I think that's pretty classless. I was in the stadium the day Browns fans cheered the injury of Tim Couch. It led to quite an altercation outside the stadium. However that doesn't excuse Baker for his actions either. I know how my parents reacted to it when I blamed my actions on, "Yeah, but you should have seen what the other guy did!" I don't hold Baker any more or less accountable for his actions than I do those fans. I disapprove of both.

OK I didn't read any other posts in this thread. My take Baker is hurting big time. He is off from the last few years, however those of you who are writing him off need to chill. He is not and never will be Otto Graham. However he can be as good or better than Bernie, and/or Sipe, when he is healthy. I know everybody and their brother wants us to win NOW, but IMO that's not going to happen this year. Next year however is another story.

I agree. I would start Keenum also and let Baker heal.

Just clicking. Now is not the time to make rash decisions on anything. We have a good staff. We have good players. We have had a ton of injuries all at the wrong time. I too would shut Baker down. I would have done so the minute I saw the report of the extent of his injury. I am getting on in years so I forget, is it four or five games that players must play in before getting credit for the season? Either way, even if this season does count, Baker is the future, at least for the time being, and as such we should be protecting him. Chubb too. This season wasn't our year. Every team has those. Even good ones. Sophomore slump or whatever you want to call it. If we were perfectly healthy we'd be in the hunt. I believe that. I believe in our head coach. He's not perfect, and he is getting an education this year for sure. But this is the same guy that got us to the playoffs in a season of Covid, with very little camp and no preseason. That took some doing as a first-year head coach. We had the best running back room in the league when we started this season. Then Chubb went down, then Hunt... etc. etc. Jarvis going down hurt. That guy is the heartbeat of this team. He WANTS it. This just isn't our year. What is funny is, we could still squeak in without Baker. It would take a lot of doing but it's not impossible. They extended the season and added two more teams. There will be teams with iffy records in the playoffs from now on. It would take a minor miracle, however. Happy turkey day. Peace to you all. Be safe and be well.

I'd just trust the Docs, the coaches, and Baker.

If his injuries are just that he's hurt, banged up, and bruised, then he can play. He's shown that the shoulder thing isn't as big of a deal as it was. Aside from the shoulder thing, I don't know that he actually has anything else that can't be played on if the Docs clear him. Given that, he is still our best chance to win. You only sit him if you're effectively decided to concede the game this week.

I agree, and why I gave baker a pass for that. My only problem was not shaking a few hands after the game. That is just proper etiquette.

I know myself. If I was depressed, or ticked or whatever, I wouldn't be good in a postgame interview. It would be yes or no answers, and if they really irritated me I'd tell the pencil pusher to buck off in so many words.. Baker did the right thing to wait.

I loved Mike Ditka PC's after a tough loss. I'd be the same way.

I agree and thanks. Yes, we have team doctors. But I've been working in the medical profession, side by side with doctors for 36 years. I can tell you that having 'M.D." after your name doesn't mean you are right all the time or always doing what's in the best interest of the pt. Baker probably had a lot of input into the decision to play or not, and maybe he was over persuasive. I still can't grasp the fact that they gave an NFL qb with a torn labrum and fractured humerus the OK to play the week following the injury. Granted, the torn labrum isn't going heal on its own, but the best thing to start the healing process for a fracture is stabilization. Let alone the other injuries that we know little about. I also don't see how anyone watching him hobble on the field thinks that it's in his or the teams' best interest to keep him out there. Is Case Keenum that bad that we couldn't have played him from the Pat's game to the bye week?

Before the season, I said the only thing that could stop us were injuries and off the field issues. We've had a lot of the first and some of the second. You're right, stuff happens and we got screwed by the injury bug. Some of our best players are seriously banged up.

No way I'd trust the player.... player will always want to play

the Docs can just tell you if it's safe for him to play... like will he injury it more or not.....

It's really on the coaches to tell you if he's effective... if the doc passes him then it comes to the coaches to figure out should you play him or not.... and I 100% disagree with you that if we start Kennum that means we've conceded the game... in my mind you start Keenum if you feel he gives you a better chance to win because Baker can't effectively lead the team due to injuries.... a health Baker is far and away better than Keenum.... but we don't have a healthy Baker...

where I do agree, is if the coaches feel Baker gives us a better chance to win, then we have to trust that because obviously they have more knowledge on it than any of us do...

Honestly, I forgot about the flag until you mentioned it again... you might be right that some may be still upset with that or frustrated because they feel he shouldn't have been the #1 overall pick....

as I said, I felt the comment was a bit childish, but it doesn't really bother me that much... one of Baker's biggest assets is that chip on his shoulder... he typically plays really well when he feels that people are against him... so I'm hoping that he comes out and plays a solid game this weekend... winning cures a lot of this talk...

you may be right that we hold these guys to pretty high standards... especially QBs... they are the leader of the team making millions of dollars... I still feel if fans want to boo the team they have every right... though, I also feel some fans take it WAY to far... I've heard fans yelling personal attacks to their players and opposing players... that's just despicable to me.

j/c

We are (1) win out of first place in our division. If Baker can go AND the coaches see in practice that he's a better option than the backup...then Baker will play. Simple as that.

Note: I realize that that (1) win gap is as wide as the grand canyon right now. But if Evil Knieval tried to jump it, so will we. (Well...Snake River canyon...but you know what I mean.) But we won't be pulling the parachute early. Old guys will know what I mean.

So I was in the hospital for the game (discharged in time for Thanksgiving) and only could get radio (Lion Announcers, blah ) I recorded the game as I have NFL Ticket and was expecting a total different result than what I did see out there.

1. Baker actually played well
2. He was very accurate in the first half and only after getting hit and injured did his throws start going bad which is understandable. Also they kept mentioning the bad weather regarding the Lions QB but never when Baker was playing...hmmm did the sun come out and wind die down every time Baker had the ball. He had a bad pass ??? Brain fart or some communication snafu...i think just a plain old brain fart for the INT early on. But Baker looked to think Post when it turned into a Dig route....anyways bad play by Baker but outside of that he threw the ball well in the inclimate weather His short pass were right on target and we had some drops on some excellent throws in tight tight windows right in the hands of Hooper and Higgins.
3. Teller has got to stop going for the Pancake block all the time - in Pass Pro if he throws the defender to the ground they will call holding everytime...(meanwhile our pass rushers get grappled all the time and no flag).

4. Chubb is a beast and is a play action machine...nice TD pass to Chubb.

5. I hope you all understand how hard it is to play injured. Baker will play even if his arm is torn off - HE WILL PLAY that is his mind set. When he gets sacked (all out blitzes ) he will come up hurt and once that happened his throws were not the same as in the beginning of the game. But he gets no pass from the "EXPERTS" cause they do not like Baker for some reason. Especially that jerk who ruined Sanchez's career playing him in the 4th game of preseason vs Giants...I have no respect for RYAN and he nitpicks when to say SEE I TOLD YOU SO...yeah and name me one QB who would be playing with the injuries Baker has and is playing.

6. SO why play him...very simple - 50% of Baker is better than 100% of Keenum - Baker is our best option to win. All this crap about do we give him a contract. Heck yes and lets keep the kid clean and free of injuries!.

Well that is all I got to say about Baker my goodness we don't have a QB and yes Franchise QB since 1999 and right away all you STAT Boys want to throw him to the curb....smh Shame on you guys!

Man, maybe I watched a different game last week... but I felt it was one of Baker's worst games... likely due to his injuries.. but he still played like crap... missed guys wide open... and did he really start off well? Wasn't he 1/4 to start the game with an INT? He had a good deep throw early to Njoku but overall I felt he was poor almost the entire game...

I also find it hard to believe that 50% baker is better than 100% keenum... but I'm not the coach...

in the last 5 games we've averaged 17 points... which includes a 41 against the Bengals... not all of that is our passing game, but we need this offense to figure things out quickly if we want to get into the playoffs...

Oh dear Lord.

I saw a picture with Baker sitting out practice Tuesday. I wonder if they may sit him until after the bye?

Listened to the presser yesterday, Baker sounds 100 % he's playing.. he sat out to rest.

This is satire.

Haha, It was just 2 days ago, I was considering using an Evil Kinevil is worse on a motorcycle with a sputtering engine, than Robbie Kinevil is with a motorcycle that works analogy in the Case Keenum, Baker Mayfield, who should start question.

Inclimate weather??? Didn't you know, a Ray of sunshine follows Baker when he steps on the field.

I'm so sick of that concept. (even if there turns out to be any truth to it, in any situation,) I'm still sick of the concept.

To Think! That any exec. or team representative, would at any time Represent this team, The Cleveland Browns,
and do so,
with such small minded tunnel vision, as to not consider, (even going back to 2018 in this case), the team in continuity, the team that existed when the "regime" took over, and to, what would be in a sense, such a narrow view of the teams history, and absolute self importance thinking as to dismiss anyone they didn't personally bring on board. As a reason, without consideration of other abilities and factors to keep a starter, but as a reason, to use that they themselves didn't personally bring on board a player is a concept that seems ridiculous to me.
Could we reason, that anybody took over after Freddie Kitchens, or whomever in this case, with the beginning intent day one, at that time, that the plan was to dump Baker and his future, YET!
they would wait for the entire 2020 season and 12-6 with a playoff win record to conclude before they got around to it??
That is bonkers.

Kind of the way I feel. I don't know if Baker is a franchise QB or not, I am not a scout, but he does/did at least give us more hope than just about other QB we have had in a long time.

The mechanics of throwing.

Before I get into it that I think it appropriate to mention that I coached baseball at a fairly high level for ten years. I attended coaching clinics at Ga. Tech.
I was a pitching coach. Went to seminars with John Smoltz. I have background in the mechanics of throwing.

There is a lot that goes into proper mechanics be it throwing to the plate from 60' 6" or throwing a deep down and out pass.

The whole body is part of the throw. When a pitcher is a little off in his mechanics the result is poor location.

In football from your waist down is where torque begins. Your feet align to your target. Your shoulders align with your feet. Your hips come through and your shoulder follows. Your off shoulder pulls through the motion.

There is more. Books worth more that I have studied.

Throwing a football great distances to a moving target is no easy task. Add pressure, weather, and throwing off platform. Then factor in defenses and decision making. There is a reason quarterbacks get paid big dollars.

When Drew Brees talks about playing quarterback and what it entails. I listen. When people like Colin Cowherd and others like him talk. I don't listen.

If people actually think just because you are on the field playing quarterback hurt that it has no impact on your ability to throw accurately.

Take some time and do some research.

And the stat boys rear their uglly heads...lol
I was going to rewatch the game and go play after play to tutor you clueless ones but don't know if I got the patience to do so. Its a shame you talk as if you know football but in reality you do not. Mirror Baker with injury, weather, and you think the results would be different.

Lets start with this. Not one QB would be playing with the injuries Baker has right now.

50% is better than 100% we as you all recognized in your disbelief our esteem coaches think this is true the fact that you cannot see this and yet it is so via our coaches actions again Ignorance is no excuse btw I stated the bad pass and didn't hold back... he made a terrible decision, what was the thought process behind that situation with Landry -- all I know is Baker threw a Post while Landry ran a dig route. ce la vie! But if you think we don't have a franchise QB so be it. Join yourself to the hip of Rex Ryan as one who don't have a clue...lol

Sorry to come down so hard just taking it out on you guys cause its easier still love you all!

Just to add one note.

If a pitcher is hurting pretty much anywhere that effects his motion.

He doesn't pitch. And they are throwing to a stationary target.

It is a coaches decision who starts or needs to be replaced during a game. They will start the guy they feel gives them the best chance to win. That does not mean all will be perfect.

bone...I never thought about that...but you are right. Anything that might affect a baseball pitcher's motion, delivering a pitch to his catcher, is taken into consideration when judging his ability to pitch in a baseball game.

In the NFL, we seem to overlook the specifics of a QB's throwing motion and how a QB's throwing motion might be affected due to injury. NFL QBs are expected to "overcome" those so called minor factors as they attempt to deliver a pass with "pin-point" accuracy down the field, be it 10 yds, 25 yds or 50 yds.

It is interesting to note that Tom House a former pitcher is the guy who refined Josh Allen's throwing motion.

If people remember when Stefanski and AVP were hired the first "to do list" with Baker was refining his footwork.

Throwing a ball is not unlike a golf swing in many ways. There are many moving parts.

Injuries to the lower body are as impactful as your shoulder and elbow.

You can practice hurt. But when a game is in motion muscle memory takes over. It does not take much to distort that motion and the throw is errant.

It may seem like I am making excuses. I am not. I am trying to point out that there are things to consider.

Football at this point is loaded with guys not 100%. However, playing quarterback is hard when fully healthy.

Throwing accurately while being hurt will result in being inconsistent. I do not see how it can be any other way.

Tom House has been coaching football players for a good while now.

We know from the past, the day they moved on from Hue, and at lunchtime we had, well we had reports the Browns had 2 different new head coaches in a 90 minute span,
We know the Haslems are making the real decisions. Nobody is making any decisions if the Haslems overrule them. Except like a players decision with his own body.
But, to say for sure the coaches are deciding who plays??? History has shown we can't trust that that is the case.
The buck stops with the Haslems.

Let me see if I understand what you are saying?

Jimmy and Dee must be attending all practices? Or, do they just show up on Sunday and hand Stafanski a card with who will start?

Is that the way happens?

Baker sucks get rid of him after all I truly miss picking early in the draft

bone...honestly, the fans don't know how badly Mayfield's injuries might be or as you point out, how injuries might be altering his throwing motion and accuracy. Most fans simply view the end product..if a pass is complete or not.

Shoulder injuries, elbow injuries, knee injuries, foot injuries, toe injuries...all can alter a QBs ability to deliver an accurate pass. Hopefully the Browns will "protect" their QB against the Rats

Listened to AVP this morning.

He said Baker looked good at practice yesterday. Feels like he is coming around.

It will help that Conklin and Hunt will play. DPJ is also likely to play. So, this maybe the healthiest we have been in sometime.

If we are going to accomplish much this year. It begins Sunday night.

We have to be able to beat teams that will compete in the playoffs. If not we do not belong.

The Ravens are a team we have to take down. They are a well coached team that plays hard tough football. They find a way to win close games.
Lamar has been a thorn against us. We must play clean football. Eliminate penalty's. Win the turnovers. Make the plays that are there to be made.

Baker needs a to play well. He is well aware of it. He has to make accurate throws to guys who are open.

The goals for this season lie right in front of us.

Good post Bone and I agree with you but we have to hope Baker doesn't take any hard hits. If he does the accuracy issues may crop up again as in previous games and you know the Ravens are just itching to give him a good shot.

Who has said that?

I don't think anyone has. I do think people are questioning that if he's hurt so badly he can't perform on the field, then why in the hell is he playing? If they're seeing in practice what we've witnessed the past two Sundays, why is he starting?

So either he isn't as badly hurt as some fans think or they're starting a QB that shouldn't be playing. You can decide for yourself what you believe. I for one won't pretend to know which one it is since I'm not being given any inside information by the team and am not attending practices. Hopefully we're not being fed a bill of goods this week about how much better Baker is doing in practice and we will see "good Baker" against the Ravens.

Pretending to know one way or the other how badly Baker is injured and trying to play that up when you don't know any more about it than I or anyone else does is what some people find so hard to believe.

So you're saying you don't know the details. But you are saying that you know it can only be one of two options? Hmmmmm.

Pit...seems to me that those decisions about which QB plays...a 60% Mayfield or a 100% Keenum...it's a decision that Stefanski and Van Pelt will make based on what they see each QB do in practice this week and what the doctors advise.



Pit...Bone and I were simply discussing how injuries can affect a baseball pitcher's throwing motion and how it might affect accuracy. Some of the same factors that might affect a pitcher's accuracy could also apply to a QB.



pit....IMO, you do seem to be locked in on how badly you believe Baker is hurt.

Baker has been wearing a harness to protect his left shoulder for a few weeks now... does the harness affect his accuracy..?

Good news, for sure.

Hopefully we can establish the run so the play-action pass can produce some good yardage.

Would you like to entertain a third option? These are the two options we've seen on the board for weeks now. If you have a third option please let us know.

I have no idea how badly Baker is hurt. Neither does anyone else on this board actually. We know the PR the team puts out and that is all. I made that quite clear. He sure did a pretty good job sprinting down the field to celebrate that TD with Chubb. Let's just all hope he's healed up enough to look like good Baker today the way the team has told us he has.

What could have changed between this week and last week?

HGH

Why didn’t they start in earlier?

I would say having the heel injury probably effected him the most. Hard planting your foot, if your heal is hurting. I also think the knee injury, I think it was a cut, is probably healing up too. I hope he starts playing better real soon. This is the time of the year to make or break a career.

All of Baker’s exes going to to LA.

We can spend all day taking things out of context(s) or re-defining realities, but at the end of the day what would it leave.
Finding a way to beat the Ravens in the game tonight, game #1 against them in 2021, and at the end of the day the Browns won't have won anything or clinched anything,
"On to the Ravens, .. Forget the Ravens, On to the Ravens. (only in Cleveland; haHA!)

End of the day, Baker is a better than any QB we've had for years. Haters need to stop. Coach needs to unleash them.

i thought the wrs. dropped more balls than ever

This is a real problem, probably our biggest. Baker's playing like crap, Stefanski is one head scratching decision
after another, and our D seems to have a play or 2 every game where a receiver makes a huge catch with no one
visible anywhere near him on the TV screen

BUT.....we are 4-5 dropped passes away from being 3-0 in the division. Passes that absolutely should have been
caught.

What we do know is that this year's team isn't getting it done and it is probably too late to do much about it.

Between the amount and nature of injuries, I think I agree with you. Unless we're waiting to unleash Case Keenum until we 'see the whites of their eyes', then I think our goose is cooked.

The first thing I thought near the end of of the game was that I need to watch the all22 when it gets posted up. If WRs are getting open at all, then I should see that in the Ravens game. There were so many black jerseys always hovering around the LOS it was incredible. I'm trying to remain in Baker's corner, so if the WRs couldn't get open in that game, then it's not happening at all.

We've lost 4 games by 6 points or less 2 of which we scored 29 and 42 points. With any O at all we would have won the Steelers and Ravens game which would make us 8-4. We're not far off at all. If we played any D at all we would have won the Chargers game. Again we're close but naturally it doesn't help where we are now.

Baker Mayfield is being held by back by two things right now: Injuries and Kevin Stefanski. Unless Stefanski is removed as the play caller, Mayfield might as well play somewhere else if he wants to realize his full potential. I'm hoping Andrew Berry realizes this and makes the correct decision regarding the head coach. He simply CANNOT let this continue past this season. I'm fine with Stefanski being let go IF he refuses to give up the play calling duties. I think we've all seen enough of this offense. It's NOT getting the job done. Period.

I'd agree with you, but are the injuries making him hold the ball too long and do his double-clutching? I've said it before, he's also not seen wide open receivers in front of him.

Sorry for the snark, but he hasn't been listed for a head injury this season, and that seems to be the root of his issues this season.

Baker is Tim Couch 2.0 he and his supporters make everybody look bad.

We don't need this, team is bigger than just one player, we have been here before, we know what is the problem.

We are now questioning everything, locker room is not happy, everybody is questioning their decisions to be here, just because of one player.... C'mon.

Let's look at the list....

It was OBJ's fault. It was the OL's fault. It's Stefanski's fault.

I will say Baker didn't look like he couldn't hit the broad side of a barn for the most part like he sometimes did last week.

You didn't mention the multiple injuries? And - once more because you ignorantly refuse to acknowledge - NO_ONE ever said it was all OBJ, or it was all the OL or it was all Stefanski and none of Baker's struggles were on Baker. No-One. But you are clearly obsessed with creating a fake argument that people aren't saying and responding to it.

In answer to your reply to me early - there are definitely other options and issues than the two you suggested: You suggested either Baker wasn't as badly hurt as he claims (eg he's faking it) = or = KS is rolling him out there when he shouldn't.

There are a lot of other viable possible issues and options at play.

I don't believe Baker is faking anything. Other posters have gone to great lengths to explain how an injury can be a non factor during the week of training and then get aggravated or be worse during a game. It's also entirely possible that KS knows how badly Baker is hurt and still thinks that a 65% Baker gives the Browns a better chance to win than a 100% Keenum. And there are shades of grey in between all these scenarios.

As of right now - I'd say last weeks game that you couldn't help but refer to, was Baker's worst game as a Brown. Yesterday's loss to the Ravens might be - no it is - the worst coached game I have seen with KS as head coach. . . .

- the play calling was bad. They even ran the same play (with "variations") three times in a row. Even factoring in the variations - that is BAD.
- They had 12 men on the field - didn't need to take a time out as the rules allowed them time for a sub .. he BLEW a time out. AND then we had 12 men on the field after the time out.
- The Landry gadget play was like watching a Kitchen's play.
- We ran the ball way too few times. If we are a running team you have to keep running it - Chubb and Hunt are good enough to eventually break one. KS has shown throughout his entire time in CLE - a propensity to abandon what we are best at.
- We rushed Conklin back and now he's out probably for the season. I have no idea if the two things are related - but we sure as hell have a tendency to

If it was me I would have rested Baker and let him heal 2 or 3 games ago, given him a month off to get healthy.

As I have said before - I think Baker is the guy we saw in the last 9 games of last season - and the first 2 uninjured games this year. PFF had him as a top 3 QB.

I think what we see now is an injured Baker trying to gut through it - with a WR core that is in the bottom 3 or 4 in the NFL. In a scheme that doesn't get receivers separation and when the run game is off an when we are behind the scheme is hopeless and won't allow the team to get chunks of yardage.

Feel free to disagree but please end the false narrative that posters are blaming everything on one issue and are claiming Baker hasn't played badly.

I never insinuated Baker was faking anything. Make things up much? What I'm saying is the medical staff, Baker and the HC all say he's ready to play. They all seem to think he's a better option than Keenum. What we hear from some of the fans is that he's so banged up he can barely play. I think the only people that are exaggerating Baker's injuries are those making every possible excuse for Baker.

Baker threw for under 50% yesterday. Nobody throws the ball but Baker. And let's look at that "horrible coaching" shall we? Baltimore was loading 7 and 8 men in the box. Your suggestion is we should continue to run when they stack the box against us? It's some of the fans contention that we shouldn't use three TE sets to help block those 7 and 8 men fronts to help protect Baker and use them for short routes so Baker can get rid of the ball quick? You have truly missed your calling.

We rushed Conklin back? So his knee is connected to his elbow? Come on man. Those two injuries have nothing to do with each other. What you have done is found a few isolated plays and penalties to try and hide the fact Baker couldn't even complete 50% of his passes. One has nothing to do with the other.

General reply (and slightly off-topic)...

Can we talk about the QB sneak with a QB sporting

a fractured/torn shoulder
bum ankle
hurt groin
I think there was a knee (?) as well

Supposedly from what we were told some of these issues were no longer plaguing Baker and he looked great in practice this week. At least that was the PR statement coming from the team.

Do you buy that PR statement at face value? There are requirements on disclosing injuries, but beyond that it's 100% gamesmanship.

Maybe I am reading things into your comments that aren't there and not intended. But they all seem to be overly negative regards Baker. They all seem to zero in on what posters say about Baker and factors and influences that may be impacting his play beyond his simple ability level -- and you focus on those "excuses" almost exclusively rather than giving us your take on Baker. The two examples that stand out:


When I read that - it sounded like somehow Baker might be faking his injuries and some fans are being duped.


This reads like posters keep changing the narrative about why Baker has struggled. It reads like posters are denying Baker has played bad. That posters are saying it's everyone else's fault but Bakers. Again - if that's not your intent, my apologies but heard not to read it like that with everything you have posted which seems all negative.

I've spelt out my position. I think there are a lot of variables impacting Baker's play - and they it's like a multiplier effect. And for dang sure - if Baker's accuracy is being impacted by injury AND the receivers are not getting hardly any separation it's a problem.

Bottom line - do you think Baker somehow got lucky for 9 games last year and two games this year pre-injury? Was that just a fluke streak? Did he strike lightning in a bottle with 21 passes completed in a row (one throw away)? To use your line on Stefanski - did Baker forget how to throw? .... Obviously all any of us have is an opinion, but do you think Baker is done? Is his ceiling what we see that last 5-6 games? Is it the last 9 games of last year? .... or do you want to bash other posters opinions but then simply say "I don't know" when it comes time to actually convey your feelings and thoughts?

I saw him limping badly after a scramble last night.... dude at best is 70%

Again, keep in mind who you are talking to.

I think people believe the NFL is somewhat linear. That one season's success will lead to continued success. But it's the ultimate chess game with a ton of variables. That's why consistency is such a big deal in the NFL. Thats why level of comp is such a big deal. This year the comp stepped up their chess game and Baker and Stefanski are getting caught playing checkers.

Who is Baker? In four years, he's never strung two good seasons together. He's only had one really strong season, his rookie year. Both years he had expectations he has crashed and burned badly. He struggles to beat good teams and rarely plays well from behind. He's sensitive which makes me believe he's mentally fragile (he consistently has issues with the media).

I don't know how much of this is Stefanski this year but either Stefanski has a much bigger ego than any of us know or he doesn't trust his QB to make calls at the line to get his team into good plays. Which one of those is more plausible?

The amount of data that leads you to believe Baker is at best even an average QB way trumps the amount that says he's a good QB, especially when you consider his best season, his rookie year, he was playing with house money.

I don't like the direction he's going.

Yes - consistency is UBER important. You are 100% correct. That's why having 4 head coaches in 3 years is an issue. It's why 4 offensive coordinators in 3 years is an issue. It's why not having any first team reps before your first game is an issue. It's why not having the same scheme / playbook until your 4th year is an issue. And if Baker and Stefanski are playing checkers - Hue and Kitchens were playing pin the tail on the donkey at Kindergarten. Consistency is not having a torn Labarum and a broken bone in your none throwing arm .. and that's why it's important.

As I've said elsewhere - you can choose to look at injured Baker's performance and decide his ceiling is a below average QB in the NFL if you want. You can look at his times with Kitchens playing loosey goosey and running plays never practiced in the week and decide that's the 'real' Baker. You can look at the start of last season with his 4th HC,, 4th OC and a QB coach changing his footwork and mechanics (and with 2 torrential rain games with 40+ mph winds) and decide that's who the real Baker is.... I think his CEILING is much more likely to be the 9 games from last year when he played lights out. The ceiling is more likely the elite arm talent we saw flashed his rookie year setting an NFL record in only 13 starts or whatever it was.

jc

What is Baker supposed to do when our run game is stopped and our WRs cant get open. He's doomed.

The Browns are 6-6.

I think the Recipe, is to keep as much of this team together as possible, don't change a whole lot, and find out...
this is the hard part, I think, but,
find out...

Find out, what the heck, this Browns team is, as an identity, and how they win, the games they win.

1. Keep the team together.
2. Find out what their identity is.
3. Make it execute at a faster, more evolve-able pace.

They've tried everything else, ("except exercise and eating right").

High end FA WR, Odell, didn't work
New FAces out the ying yang, didn't work. Young Coach, didn't work everyone wants to blame everyone.
Always thinking,
Always thinking the answer,
is,
Acquiring somebody good from somewhere else, and then when they get here, (where? your team), do they continue to get better through development,
or
just dust pin toss everyone who has a little bit of struggle. --- after all ^v < >
Acquiring somebody good from somewhere else,

And then spending 25 years acquiring a higher talent level, until having a top 1-3 talented roster to start the year, nets 6-6, so far,
so what is left.
Keep the team together
Find out what their/your identity is
Make it execute what that identity does, at a faster, more evolvable pace, going forward. May be what it would take to keep up.

Not to worried about the dropped passes, got to focus on the caught ones.

Baker can be frustrating, but we already know he is capable of playing at a high level. He’s done it. Right now, I think he is obviously banged up and perhaps more importantly, we have a lousy receivers room. Landry is a possession guy with a lot of miles on him. DPJ is just a tease who doesn’t seem like he cares. Higgins is all but gone, and Schwartz may or may not develop into anything. They have three tight ends, but none are even close to Mark Andrews level. They should spend their first two picks on receivers.

Schwartz is a bust, but he was a project at best. Berry didn't do enough to put reliable targets there with depth. I really like Davis, seemed like he had a knack of getting open and making contested catches.. Really we could cut every single receiver sans Landry and wouldn't even notice.. I hope we pull a couple off some PS during the bye

I was disappointed with DPJ Sunday. It was his first stinker IMO. He has all the tools and maybe his time on/off has kept him a bit rusty. we desperately need a reliable WR who can separate and make tough catches

Dude is a later round pick who hasn't even finished his first season. That's some Colin-level hot take right there.

DPJ has been disappointing, but less so than many others in the same room. Jarvis has been banged up from the get-go, the Baker-OBJ connection obviously never materialized and suddenly you have a guy (DPJ) thrust into the #1 role a year before he was supposed to, and without a healthy and productive Jarvis to take attention away. Higgins was supposed to be out there as well, but our WR room went from super-deep and talented to us bringing up PS guys and giving them meaningful snap #s.

Keep in mind yet once again how you are coming into Pure Football to pursue your personal agenda. Try keeping your trash in the Political forum.

And then this.....


Why is a late round pick supposed to be the #1, whether this year or next? Personally, I saw him as a deep threat option (maybe a little more than that) but never viewed him as the team's expected #1 WR of the future, but I suppose crazier things have happened (see Antonio Brown). In fact, I could see the Browns taking a WR high this upcoming draft w/ the hopes of becoming the future #1 WR. I'm simply trying to lower the expectations of this guy. I like him, but never thought the FO took a six-round WR and said to themselves....that's our future #1 in a couple of years.

The only thing you forgot is our innate ability to jump offsides or have an illegal formation at the most inopportune time...

This happens to almost every defense in almost every game at one point or another. Offenses are specifically designed to confuse the defense, just like the defense is designed to confuse the offense, every once in a while it works, you just have to give some credit to the offense for running a well-designed play and try to limit the number of times it happens. Of course sometimes it's just a guy blowing his assignment like happened in the Chargers game and those need to be fixed but they haven't happened much since then.

You could substitute any number of things in there...

Stupid turnovers
Poorly thrown balls
Mis-reads
idiotic play calls
stupid in-game decisions

Which is what causes the bickering among the fans, most want to find that ONE THING to blame.. and it's not one thing, it's a bunch of different things at different times.

I'm one of Baker's top supporters I'd say. I have never not said he's playing poorly, because there are times when he has. He's also to blame sometimes, this is true. I don't agree with the absolutes that "it falls on the QB" and "is always the QB." Is that a hypocritical comment or do you also believe Russell Wilson is solely at fault for Seattle's woes?

I think there are more issues on this team than just Baker. I also don't think Stefanski has an ego as has been described. I remember a prayer claiming Sashi had an ego and that was 100% false. Don't be like that.

I think we have a good team, a good front office, and a lot of the right men in place. We're just going thru some growing pains. Remember, some have only been here for a year and a half.

We've started over like 30 million times. I don't think Stefanski or Berry or Woods or Baker are going anywhere. And I'm glad. Come back and tell me how you feel in a few more years. I catch a lot of flack on this, but I still wouldn't trade Baker for any other quarterback in the league. He's ours, we develop him, he plays for the Browns. That's how it works.

Baker has the tools to become elite. "Game-managers" are the quarterbacks that don't possess those traits and limit the offense. In what regard is Baker limiting the offense? Baker was fantastic in his rookie season. Did HE regress? No. I don't believe he's regressed. I think he's actually getting better. It's only year 2 in this offense.

He has been hurt, has it affected his play? Possibly. Does that mean he shouldn't be playing? Not necessarily. "Stefanski doesn't trust his quarterback." I believe it to be the opposite. I believe that the coaches are 100% behind Baker and see him as the future here. You can win with him. That's been proven. The nonsense he folds vs more talented teams is just nonsense.

I know why I wanted to draft Baker and those reasons haven't changed. I really don't believe people realize just how good he is. I think it would be a travesty if we move on from Baker. It would haunt us.

I wonder what the sentiment was with Drew Brees in San Diego after 4 years. Every situation is different. Not all situations are the same. Drew Brees was given up on too early. Maybe San Diego wins a SB if they commit to Brees.

I'm not saying Brees and Baker are the same. Brees never was "great" until he turned 30. We don't have to wait that long. I truly believe we will be rewarded by Baker in the long run. When I say he's not the problem I'm saying if you insert any QB in this line up, the results are likely to be the same. I'm not ready to give up on Baker yet. He didn't give up on you.

And again. I'm not saying Baker is Drew Brees, but....


Drew Brees (first 5 seasons, bench 1st yr)
26 yrs old
Record: 30-28
62.3%
Td: 79
Td%: 4.4
Int: 53
Int%:3.0
12,127 yds
Y/game: 209.1
Qb rating: 84.7

Baker Mayfield (first 4 seasons)
26 yrs old (technically younger than Brees at this point)
Record: 28-28
61.9%
Td: 86
Td%: 4.7
Int: 49
Int%:2.7
13,528 yds
Y/game: 237.3
Qb rating: 89.2

I don't think we will spend a 1st rd pick on a WR.

Wrong place for draft talk but I'm drafting O-line. Maybe the center from Iowa.

I think 3rd or 4th rd for WR. But we do need to draft one or two....or 5.

I don't think I can label Schwartz a bust just yet. I didn't like him stopping mid-route causing an interception but he's not a bust yet.

I think Baker has been impeded by his injuries. I don't think he'll ever be a Drew Brees but I still feel he is good enough. JMO I don't believe AR is going to leave Green Bay or RW will leave Seattle to come to Cleveland and who wants the Deshaun Watson drama we.ve had enough of that this year and look what happened. We need 2 WR's that can stretch the field for next year along with a run stopping D lineman and another LB or 2 and we will be really good. Again, JMO

I have given my take on Baker. My take is at this juncture we don't know what we have in Baker one way or the other. We have seen both good Baker and bad Baker. The best possible scenario for everyone concerned is for Baker to play out his fifth year option. As it stands with this season in the books to this point, Baker would be negotiating from a position of weakness. I mean these aren't the type of performances that give you bargaining power going into contract negotiations. On the other side of things it would give the team the opportunity to see a healthy Baker perform before a long term commitment is made.


I'm actually surprised you managed to come to such a conclusion. An either and or scenario isn't drawing any conclusion. Let's recap shall we? The team doctors, HC and Baker all say he is ready and able to play. So how exactly would that lead fans to the conclusion his injuries are so bad he throws for around 50%? This past week the team said he looked better in practice and so that would indicate he's actually gotten better. If anything the team and Baker aren't accentuating the injures and are in fact down playing them. So if fans are drawing the conclusion that Baker is even more hampered by injuries than the team is letting on, how in the hell can you arrive at the conclusion I think the fans are being duped by Baker?


Many posters have used all of these different excuses. At some point you have to take a look at the performance of your QB and stop looking at everyone else. Over the past three games what on God's green earth is there to be positive about in Bakers play? I have made it clear that I'm not saying this is "who Baker is". But it's certainly who "Baker is right now".


So far all we have heard is our WR's aren't getting open. I'm waiting on the film and actual break downs before passing judgement. Like I said, something becomes a very popular excuse before the evidence has been presented. I'll wait to see the evidence. As far as his injuries are concerned, either it's not "all on the injuries" or Stefanski has decided to start a QB who simply is so damaged he can't perform to the level of an NFL QB. I'm not going to draw any conclusion on that either way. But you sure seem to be sticking up for the side who does.


I'll have to break that down just a bit. You seem to be indicating that Baker played like some great QB for all nine of those games last year and the first two games of this year. First you have decided to break it down to the last nine games because that puts things in a much more favorable light than looking at it as a season. Secondly there were certainly games that do not fit into your "lightening in a bottle" scenario.

Nov. 1st we scored six points against the Raiders.

Nov. 15th we scored 10 points against the Texans.

Dec. 27th we scored 16 points against the Jets.

Then in the divisional playoff game we scored 17 points against the Chiefs.

That's certainly not an offensive juggernaut.

Baker has had times he plays very well. He certainly possesses the physical skill set. I have never questioned that. The problem is, just as I broke down in what you claimed was some great last nine games of last year, it doesn't seem to be consistent. We see people claiming how poor our WR's are, but many of those making that claim are the very same posters who said we played better without OBJ. The fact is this is the exact same group of WR's we had before OBJ left.

I don't have all of the answers as to Baker's poor performances. What I do have are actual observations as to what I see. The same Baker who played so well when he simply dropped three or five steps and threw the ball is gone. He seems unsure of himself with holding the ball and double clutching. He doesn't seem to have confidence in what he is seeing. There are two major ingredients to anything we do in terms of performing. One is the physical ability to accomplish our goal. Baker has that. The other is the mental aspect. Processing information and feeling confident in the ability to make that happen. I'm not sure I see that second part.

I've made it quite clear that I have certainly not came to the conclusion that "Baker is done". Had you actually have followed along with my comments about Baker you would have known this without isolating my one post and bothering to ask. I'm saying the jury is still out. I'm saying I'm not sure how much of this is the injury situation. I'm saying it appears we'll have to wait until next season to see him play healthy to reach that conclusion.

I don't generally take PR statements from any corporations seriously. What I do find hard to believe is that this coaching staff would play a QB who is so injured he is physically unable to perform to a level that gives you every opportunity to win the game. And when he has thrown for right at 50% over the past three games that's exactly what we're seeing on the field. So no, I don't believe his poor performances are strictly injury based.

So Baker has a history of completing anywhere from 62-63% of his passes each year with the exception of the Kitchens year. He's throwing 50% the last 3 games but you are implying it's not injury related?

You said you don't buy into the PR stuff - but for Baker your willing to make an exception and believe the PR stuff?

At some point you have to look at the QB and stop looking at everyone else? And again the use of the word 'excuses' - when in reality all these things combined all have a knock on effect. You can't see with your own eyes watching a game that WR's are covered tightly on most pass plays / routes? You can't see with your own eyes that Baker is in pain or limping after he gets hit?

His performance is not strictly injury based .... but it affects his consistency for sure and if you don't think it is impacting his completion % I really don't know what to say.

Since you wish to focus on only the parts of my post that you think you can exploit to suit your agenda rather than the post as a whole speaks volumes. I provided facts that Baker has good games and bad games. Even during what you seemed to claim were nine great games. So while you have decided to average out all of his games, I've shown where both good and bad have contributed to that average. And I've never said that those injuries didn't "contribute". I'm saying I don't know how much they contribute and I think a lot of posters are jumping to conclusions about that. But rather than to address all of my points, you have decided to evade most of them like the plague. You keep doing you.

I appreciated the response. I replied to areas I see as inconsistent. Isn't that what a forum like this normally does?

Sure. Often times that's what people do. Sometimes people break down the responses the exact way I did yours. And no, you don't have to look at "just the QB". You have to look at each unit and player as individuals and units. The same way people break down the play of each CB, each WR, each DL player and so forth. Baker isn't an exception to that rule.

I feel like his skillset is rounding into the mold of a #1. He was showing his potential in camp, and the next step will be to apply that to Sundays. Next year will be his 3rd year, and generally where you can really see what they are as an NFL player. He also seems to have the attitude necessary to operate within this offense (no nonesense, hard worker that doesn't seem to get hung up on the stats).

888...I thought your posts were fair and accurate.

Baker has been hurt but is showing improvement and imo, as he recovers I expect his game to improve.

But everyone needs to keep in mind that Baker can't catch his own passes and those who have the responsibility of "protecting Baker" must be held accountability
for performing their assignment on every play. Baker can't pick and choose which personnel are on the field for certain plays and Baker is not calling the plays.

As I said, Baker did show improvement and I expect his play on the field to continue to improve as his injury situation improves...jmo

What improvement did you see in this game over the previous two?

Thanks for your wonderful and informative contribution to the thread. It makes your opinion of what's going on with Baker perfectly clear now.

Ya mean kinda like this post of yours?

Sure. I reply in kind. Maybe you haven't been following the thread in your zest just to cause trouble in the Pure Football forum. Of course I'm not surprised by that. But since you haven't been paying attention I have been involved in a quite lengthy discussion about the topic. I see you have nothing of substance to add. Better luck next time.

Because it's all speculation. And you keep doing your last word thing.

Schwatrz may very well turn out to be a bust. However to label him that after he 10 games is assinine.

Bakers problems this year in order.

His injuries.
his lack of quality WR's
Coaching/play calling.
Bakers problems reading defenses.

All four of these are effecting his performance.

My views on Baker are perfectly clear. That doesn't mean I can't point out the obviously ridiculous comments in the meantime.

J/C... I wonder what the rest of the team think about all the Baker injury talk..most of the season lots of players were playing hurt or sitting out because it..Chubb sat out ..Hunt..Landry ... OL ...Defensive players.

Baker sits a game, only one game. Then you see him limping and hobbling along as he's not throwing real well... Why is it okay for him to be hurt and not play well, but other players sit for games at a time with injuries ?

All the Baker is tough tough talk..He's really hurting and wants to be out on the field fighting with all of us.. Don't you think the other hurt players want to be out fighting with the team ,yet they are still sitting..

Can that possibly rub some of the players wrong ? Think about it.. looks like it's all about Baker showing he's tough and can play hurt..instead of thinking about the team as a whole getting to the play-offs..

What's more important the team getting into the play offs or Baker still playing really injured and showing he's tougher then any of the other injured players..

Most know Keenum isn't as good as Baker, But maybe he was good enough to beat the Lions so Baker could sit and heal..Maybe Case could of put up 17 points to beat the Ravens so Baker could rest more and heal..Then the bye and Baker is resting and healing even more...

Now Baker has 3 weeks to rest and heal and he can come back feeling ready to play the remainder of the season and hopefully into the play offs when he's most needed.

I was also curious how the players would respond to Case.. Maybe even though he's not as good as Baker, Maybe it might of been a breath of fresh air for the rest of the guys and maybe just maybe they may have picked up their game..who knows, would loved of seen it..

I feel sometimes it's not always about one player, it's about making a group of players feel like a team...

deis...imo, if there are any issues or concerns about Baker playing through his injuries, the final decisions are being made by the HC Stefanski with (most likely) input from the medical staff.

Any players who might have any concerns about Baker playing would most likely take those concerns to their own position coaches or directly to Stefanski. So far, there is no sign of internal concerns over Stefanski's decision to play Mayfield.

Can some talking head stir the pot enough to create a concern?...who knows...but as of now those kind of concerns are being "imagined".

sure...

dude has 8 catches in 12 games...seriously.. He's gone 6 games without recording a single reception despite decent snap count numbers. He's a bust or at very least a failed project. The only thing he had coming out of college was speed. He had bad hands in college. He's not supposed to be anything more than a returner or situational deep threat. I'll give you another name, corey coleman. Bust by all accounts and lasted 3 years in the nfl, his rookie year he had 33 receptions. sooo Schwartz better get busy these last 5 games

I don't know. I wonder how many of those other players were cleared by medical and were actually asked if they could play.... and said no.

I also assume that these other players have been to practice, they understand better than us the difference in ability between Baker and Keenum... At the end of the day, I keep going to back to, this is on Stefanski... It is ultimately his call if injured Baker gives us a better chance to win that healthy Keenum... and so far he has decided that he does.

I think Baker was able to compensate for the non-throwing shoulder injury but it seems that since he suffered the lower body injuries, heel, ankle, knee, whatever.. that it seems to be having a much greater impact on his ability to step into throws and throw with accuracy.

There's nothing ridiculous about it. Our QB couldn't even complete 50% of his passes and has only had one completion for over 50% in his previous two games. Some of the lame excuses for that are ridiculous.

Wah. Stalker.

You are asking someone else to make a point while you yourself refuse to make one? My points have been made throughout this thread. The fact you choose to ignore them doesn't mean they aren't there. Let me ask you, how many other starting QB's in the NFL have thrown a lesser competition percentage over the past three games? You can either address all of the points I've made throughout this thread or you can ignore them. But the only one right now refusing to make a point is you.

I keep getting hung up on Keenum being brought in with Stefanski, and how much they paid him to come here. IMO, you don't go and get that guy and pay him so well to think you're stuck with a half-broken starter QB. Conclusion: Baker is healthy enough to play, and expectations of him are lower than if he was fully healthy, but higher than that of his backup (highest(?) paid backup in the league and one who had quite a bit of success on the same team as his HC). To me, that renders much (but not all) of the "but Baker is too banged up" irrelevant.

From Andrew Berry's press conference today:

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
#Browns GM Andrew Berry said QB Baker Mayfield has told you guys he's felt healthier week to week, I expect our guys to work through this tough stretch, and that's not just Baker, that's our entire team

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
#Browns GM Andrew Berry on why they didn't rest QB Baker Mayfield with injuries earlier in season: For any player in terms of whether they're on the field, it's are they medically cleared, are they medically cleared that would allow them to function & can he perform on game day?

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
#Browns GM Andrew Berry on QB Baker Mayfield playing through injuries: nobody is 100% healthy in December in the NFL

Camryn Justice
@camijustice
#Browns Andrew Berry said there are 3 things to determine if an injured player can play:

1. Medically cleared & won't hurt themselves further.
2. Medically cleared to allow them to play at a wining level.
3. Player shows in practice they can perform all requirements on game day.

Camryn Justice
@camijustice
#Browns Andrew Berry: "Baker's our quarterback. He's healthy enough to win games for us...if he's ready to go he's going to be our starter."

Good film breakdown by Jake Burns and the Browns offense over the last two games.

Brown Offense Film Room: Analyzing the Yards Poor Execution Is Leaving On The Field

device...your post above..if it doesn't make those who are the most negative about Baker, stop and think about how some QBs have been forced to overcome various obstacles, on their way to successful careers and leading their teams to the playoffs and a shot at a Super Bowl...

Getting to the playoffs is not easy and many are simply looking for someone to blame because they bought into the pre-season hype, proclaiming that the Browns would be Super Bowl contenders this season.

It has been a tough season...but football is not meant to be an easy game to master...

Clear understanding of what is going on.

Are the videos not lining up with the text in that article? There are a bunch where the description makes no sense.

The description of the play is listed and the corresponding video is below the description.

For example:

(8:19) 6-B.Mayfield pass deep right intended for 80-J.Landry INTERCEPTED by 24-A.Oruwariye at CLV 45. 24-A.Oruwariye to CLV 35 for 10 yards

Result: Incomplete -- INACCURATE
xEPA: 2.2

EPA Result: -3.7
Yards Missed: 22

Simple run-action two-man route concept where Stefanski schemes Jarvis Landry open on the double-move nod route. The throw sails over Landry's head on what had the potential to be a big play in both completion and yards following an accurate throw.

The video of this play is available below that description.

Those videos tell the story. Drops and inaccurate throws are killing us. The plays being called should be moving the ball.

When I looked, the Detroit INT intended for Landry didn't have the right description under the video.

And (I want to give the author the benefit of the doubt here), but I saw more than one video of a ball bounce off a receivers hands, and the text above had it as an inaccurate throw.

Fair point... but Stefanski has had a golden opportunity for multiple weeks to sit Baker for a game just for being ineffective and use the excuse that they are giving him a week to heal up... thus avoiding the media storm of Baker being pulled for poor play.... take that week and see how your very expensive back-up does who has had success with you in the past. If Keenum comes in and looks good, give him a second week.... We've seen Keenum 1 time against the Broncos who do not have a bad defense.. we scored 17 points and he didn't look spectacular but he certainly looked efficient...

DC...I can't disagree with your logic...using Mayfields injury status to sit him. If Stefanski and are looking for Baker to give in to injury and pain...it doesn't look like Baker is gonna say, I CAN'T GO. Baker is not going to voluntarily decide to sit on the bench. The ball is in the Browns court to make that call based on their ability to judge Baker's physical status.

After hearing from Berry today, I'm wondering if we aren't observing the early part of the never-ending Cleveland Browns narrative, given our pretty regular turnover in front office decision makers and then, the players who preceded them here ... He's not their guy.

I didn't think Andrew Berry exactly had Baker Mayfield's back today with his comments.

Just a question.

What part of the interview gave you that impression?

He basically said that that Baker's injuries aren't an excuse for his less-than-stellar play, and that he's healthy enough to play well and win. I think that is demonstrably debatable. He's playing with a completely torn left labrum, a fracture in left upper arm, a bruised knee, a bruised heel, and a pulled groin, and doctors who never played a down get to judge him as healthy enough to play. Healthy for what? IMO, this was a time for the organization to close ranks behind their guy, and instead they threw him under the bus. If I was Baker or his agent, I'd be angry.

I didn't see / hear that interview. To me it sounds like more CMA (cover my ass) for the front office/coaching than any slight on Baker. I mean it could be taken either way - but the truth is anyone with a pair of eyes can see how beat up Baker is. I'm willing to bet half the QB's in the league wouldn't start witht he same injuries Baker has.... Opinion, but I'll stick to it.

My boy Quincy should tune in, Gbush too. Ever since the Odell fiasco, well a few days after, they've set their sites on Baker and the O to pound on. Quincy keeps walking this line of “I'm not saying he's bad, but he's bad.”…

Brace yourself - I agree.

Just finished the presser. All things considered I thought it was pretty neutral, and I think it's very hard to tell what Berry is thinking. Hell, Teller was basically telling the fans at the beginning of the year this is his swan song season, and now he's signed to an extension.

Berry may think Baker is trash. He may think Baker is the answer. I felt like I could not tell either way from the presser. Those looking for unequivocal support of Baker as in "Baker is our guy moving forward", if Berry wouldn't do that before the season, why on earth would you expect him to do it now? Just doesn't make any sense.

People will take what they want from it based on what they want to hear, but again, I thought it was pretty neutral. We'll know in the off season what these guys really think. But I do think Berry made one thing perfectly clear. These last 5 games are huge for the players, Baker and everyone else.

I believe the issue with this approach, most importantly, would be that Baker, Stefanski, the FO, the medical staff and lastly the locker room would know this was a ruse and Baker was benched due to poor play. That creates doubt and mistrust within the organization. Worrying about a media firestorm is the mistake every other regime would concern themselves with, not this one. They do not allow the media or fan fervor to dictate the moves they make, which is a positive.

Berry laid out the organization's three part approach on evaluating if player is capable of playing and playing at winning level. The Browns are going to give their full support to Baker until he is no longer in the future plans. A starting QB needs full organizational support, otherwise, cut-bait and move on.

Camryn Justice
@camijustice
#Browns Andrew Berry said there are 3 things to determine if an injured player can play:

1. Medically cleared & won't hurt themselves further.
2. Medically cleared to allow them to play at a wining level.
3. Player shows in practice they can perform all requirements on game day.

Camryn Justice
@camijustice
#Browns Andrew Berry: "Baker's our quarterback. He's healthy enough to win games for us...if he's ready to go he's going to be our starter."

Not saying you are wrong. I didn't get the same impression.

I thought when he said:

“I think with Baker, especially from a long-term perspective, you really try and take a big picture approach. Really with any player, it is about body of work really over several years and also taking into context the environment or particular individual’s situation. We have seen Baker play a lot of good football here. "

Berry will take a big picture approach and that could leave the door open for any move.

He also said that you can't look at one player for the offensive problems.

IMO Berry was measured in what he said.

I don't think you can say one way or the other what he believes about an extension.

And that is precisely the impression he wanted to leave.

If anything, I took it as Berry is no closer to making a long-term decision on Baker as he was at the beginning of the season. Didn't he specifically point out that they have him under contract next year and will continue to evaluate?

Well worth watching this - whether you are a Baker fan or sceptic. 15 minutes of great breakdown.

The receivers being covered at around 7:26 is what I see "often". The double clutch which people blast Baker for (presumably he deserves criticism sometimes too) is explained - the miss to Chubb in the flat is explained.

Just me - I'll put more faith in a 15 minute film breakdown by Kurt Warner than virtually all of the talking heads and "fans".

true that

Your not going to win any Brownie points for posting that ..lol

Ski has taken the Baker out of Mayfield and Berry let him do it ...

I love videos like this. I do think the tone would be a little different if he were to break down the 2nd half.

I think people hang on to whoever speaks the narrative they wish to hear.

You asked for film breakdown ... it's here. So now you come with that snark?

It's not the all 22 breakdown people were wishing to look at. Would you like for me to find talking heads with the opposite narrative of the film? Because they are certainly out there. People tend to promote the talking heads that agree with what they feel or believe. That's really not snark at all. It's factual. You can see it in every facet of life. This is no different. And as was mentioned, this was one half of the game.

Not snark, that's fair - but more than a bit dismissive of a pretty well broken down piece of film by a highly qualified individual.

That would tend to suggest that former QB's are all "highly qualified individuals" with which to break down film. I would love to see him break down the entire game. I'm betting it certainly wouldn't have looked as favorable. As I said, it was only one half of the game. While Mayfield still played poorly in this game it didn't have that "couldn't hit the broad side of a barn" look we got last week nearly as much or as often. Mayfield certainly isn't the only factor in our poor offensive performances over the past three weeks. I think we all pretty much agree on that. Another thing I think we can all agree on. This offense doesn't look any better without OBJ on the field. I'm using that as a reference to yet another excuse we used to see which no longer applies. And yes, while that is snark to a degree, it's also quite truthful.

This was a close hard fought game against a quality team.

If you are going to win a game like this. You have to make the plays that are there.

The first drive drop by DPJ was critical. We got no points in a game we lost by six. We score a TD there. Different game.

Then the kicker misses.

Njoku drops a first down deep in Raven territory.

Baker has a big gain screen to Hunt. He drops the ball.

Felton drops a first down later in the second half.
=====================================================================

You can not do that in a game like that and win.

You only get so many opportunities.
====================================================================

Who cares about the narrative of talking heads? You want to be a playoff team. Make those plays.

As I said, Baker wasn't the only problem. But make no mistake, the way he's playing is one of the problems.

I think the main intention of Warner's video was to show that there's more that goes into a good/bad throw than the throw itself, and more specifically, to show where other things went wrong in that first half that resulted in 'bad throws'. It wasn't a 'Baker isn't the problem video'... it was a 'hold up, there's more going on here'. The Chubb miss is a good example. That's a route that Chubb nails all the time, but somehow found himself in the wrong spot and Baker went to where he was supposed to be. I don't think he shied away from blaming Mayfield when it was warranted, but he emphasized other areas (many not so obvious, which is what I appreciated) that contributed to 3 points despite 3 takeaways. It was an incomplete breakdown (but one that featured the all22), but it emphasized everything that went into 3 points despite 3 takeaways.

It wasn't totally lacking in content. But as I also mentioned, I would like to see the entire game breakdown.

I like Warner's break down. He is who I think Baker is most similar to at QB. A mesh of Warner, Brees, and Flutie, with the occasional sprinkle of Hoyer.

bonefish, baker could have played the exact same game and it could have been viewed totally differently. Bakers line was 18/37 for 247 yards. If our receivers would have done their job baker would have been 23/37 for 300+ yards. We would have won the game and no one except the small group who will always criticize would be attacking him.

Now someone said drops should not be considered because everyone has drops. On a macro or global level that is true . But on a micro level, when you zero in on a game it
Affects outcomes greatly. I went back thru Sunday’s game watching the raven offense. If they had any drops I did not see them. What if lamar’s receivers dropped five passes and bakers dropped zero. Lamar’s stat line would have been 13/32 for about 125 yards. And the browns would be winners.

A successful passing attack depends on a lot of things and one of them is guys who are paid to catch the all actually catch the dang ball.

Without going back and checking, 5 drops is in the ballpark of what happened in that game (probably 1-2 high). Drops absolutely accounted for 50 yards (the big one to DPJ in the first half was like 50 yards on its own).

In the same vein, though... Baker fumbling as hilariously as he did directly cost us 3 points (possibly more since that screen play was gonna go for big yards).

Anyone know who the Browns QB coach is?

IMO it would be money well-spent if the Browns approached someone like Curt Warner to be the Browns QB coach.

Thanks for posting. That was a very good breakdown of the first half. I wish he would have spent the time to breakdown the second half as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong... Didn't he watch the whole game and said baker wasn't the problem?

It was far more the fact that he seemed to expect perfection from our WR's than anything else. There are almost at least two or three drops in every NFL games where the ball is thrown almost 40 times. Expecting perfection from one position as an excuse to overlook mistakes from another position is well.....

Not quite.

From the way I see it. It is simple.

There are limited opportunities in a game. Sometimes a play is called and the defense is in the right place. The runner is stopped cold. The pass is incomplete or thrown away.

Other times the play call works. There is a play there that can be made. The quarterback has to see it. He has to make the throw accurately and the receiver has to catch it. Or, the blocking is there. The hole is open and the runner needs to see it and hit it.

In tight games you have to make those plays when they are there. It does not matter who blows it.

You make those plays and you win. You don't and you lose.

All this blame game crap doesn't cut it with me. Win the game. Everybody is happy. It all looks good. You want talk about how great the victory was.

Lose and you look to hang it on someone.

The plays are interconnected in many ways from game plan, play call, to proper execution.

The difference between winning and losing is narrow.

The Raven's game is a perfect example. Five drop passes, a quarterback fumble, a missed field goal. You go home a loser.

Not bad,but you left out Otto Graham,Peyton Manning,and Ken Stabler.And let's blend in some Tom Brady while we're at it.

Agreed. I do htink the Video and the breakdown was a 100% - Baker is not the problem. But specifically with that one game. Because you only have to go back and see other games where Baker has played much worse and was a much much bigger part of the problem.

The breakdown was also not a "WR's need to be perfect" ... I think it's a pretty common sentiment that "you got to catch the ball when it hits you in the hands" - and we dropped 3 in the breakdown. WR will drop balls - yes, but the sentiment is still "you gotta catch it". I liken it very much to the Baker fumble. Kurt said - it's going to happen, every QB has done it but he also said "You can't do that and it cost points.

I also thought it was detailed and very specific on routes and play design and what the QB should be seeing and reading and where the ball needs to go:

The one comment about an open receiver was - 'this guys open but thats the 5th read'. On the DPJ drop - he highlights that the two guys are open on the left but the play is designed for DPJ to be the first read and Baker throws that pass and hits DPJ in the hands. . . .

On the huge miss to Chubb - which watching live I am groaning about and blaming Baker - Kurt is letting anyone who wants to listen to a SuperBowl winning QB that Chubb's route calls for him to flatten out. Which is where Baker threw the ball.

On the double clutch - which is another moment I always go groan and think Baker is being indecisive - Kurt showed the route Landry ran, clearly shows that Baker is expecting him to run a hook and double clutches because Landry isn't running a hook.

And right at the start - the difference between a left leg first step and right leg first step cost Landry maybe 12-20 yards. Again a take I would not see by myself - and a testament to Kurt's attention to detail.

Hard not to see why the breakdown wasn't insightful. I guess if it doesn't include some Baker bashing some folks are just going to tune out.

After seeing that video I came to the conclusion our O needs to practice a lot more. Doesn't seem like we're on the same page running these pass routes.

I guess the Chubb route and the Jarvis route were issues. Kurt didn't know for sure what the deal with Jarvis was - he didn't say it was wrong, just said he didn't recognize it and that you could tell Baker was expecting something different. Certainly it was a smallish sample size with two clear issues where we weren't executing.

Another interesting couple of plays of note - the same route concept on the left. One in Cover 1 and one and one in Cover 2. Baker read Cover 1 and threw to the guy that was supposed to be open - and in Cover 2 he didn't look to the same guy as he should have been covered underneath.

This is apropos of nothing, but in the video I noticed several instances where we had multiple receivers in the same part of the field. I have always marvelled at how open opposition receivers were when we're on defense, and the exact opposite when we were on O. Our guys always seemed to be tightly covered and immediately tackled after catches, while oppo guys had no defenders near them, and got a lot of YAC. My layman's brain wonders why we don't run patterns that spread the field a bit more?

Flashes, certain attributes, character, attitude… it all translates. Not to mention, his history, accolades, and that he has a top five arm and accuracy, when not injured. But hey bro, bash away if it makes you feel better somehow.

jc...

I'm glad to hear someone (Curt Warner) explain some of the finer points of QB play and pointing out how the failure to execute some of the finer points can impact the success of failure of a pass play. Most fans and 100% of the TALKING HEADS fail to recognize that there are legit reasons that some pass plays fail and while Baker is taking most of the criticism from the "uneducated" (in a football sense) others can be at fault for the failure of a pass play.

One of my questions..12 games into the season and some of our players are still making mistakes ...such as Baker's 4 step dropback vs what should be a 3 step drop and how that little change can affect the timing of a pass play. Stefanski and Van Pelt are responsible for correcting those little mistakes that can result in a BIG mistake if the timing is so far off that the defender is able to INT that pass.

THE LITTLE THINGS MATTER...and they should not be happening at this point of the season.

The Chubb pass route in the flat that I had no idea was not run properly by Chubb, who rounded off his route instead of making a flat, sharp cut to the sidelines. Because of Curt Warner's explanation, we are able to see how just one minor mistake results in the failure to complete that pass. No doubt, most blamed Baker rather than Chubb.

WHY ARE THE BROWNS COACHES ALLOWING THIS KIND OF SLOPPY PLAY, especially now that the team is 12 games into the season.

THE LITTLE THINGS DO MATTER and why isn't the Browns coaching staff correcting them?

What if the Berry has decided he wants to move on from Baker?

First he would to have a clear option available as a preceived upgrade.

Jimmy G, Jameis Winston, Watson, the draft? Are there really options that are obvious upgrades?

None of the above are really appealing. Watson is an upgrade however, his situation is very cloudy.

Russell Wilson? His trade list includes: Cowboys, Saints, Raiders, Bears. The only real option from that list would be the Saints. The others have their guy.

If the Saints wanted to make that trade. What would it take? Lots of first rounders. Seattle would have no quarterback. Winston will be a free agent in 2022 from my understanding. So, he would not be a trade chip. Hard to believe Seattle would make a deal there.

If, Berry wanted Wilson he would first have to convince Wilson to accept a trade to Cleveland. He might accept it. We have a great OL and we have great running backs. We can get better receivers. We have a good defense.

What would a trade to Seattle look like?

Baker Mayfield to Seattle with draft picks. First off Seattle would have to want Baker. Who knows maybe they would believe Baker's future is bright?

Second what draft picks? A first for sure, and probably more. Maybe a second first in 2023? Maybe a 1st, and second in 22 and a lower round?

Hard to say what would work for both teams?

I would make a trade for Wilson if the draft pick add were reasonable. It would not be with two number ones.
=============================================================================

Berry and KS would have to reach a decision that Baker is not good enough to lead the team to a Super Bowl and Wilson is.

IMO I do not think they have reached that conclusion. However, if this season goes really sour and Baker's play is the reason?

Who knows?

Just thinking out loud.

I think you're looking at it from too much of a 'us vs them' standpoint. I think he called out Mayfield when warranted ("got him" on a ball that could've been placed better but was still completed). I think he framed the intent of the video really well (called out everyone piling on Baker, called out Baker on the specific plays, but also showed that there's a lot more going on... also highlighted where he himself was unsure about why a play turned out the way it did).

Maybe it's just me, but I am MUCH more open to data/viewpoint when it's presented in such a transparent way.

Regardless of Berry's opinion of Baker - I would bet that he is doing hi due diligence and looking at all options. I don't believe there is a viable candidate in the draft. That's probably one option to scratch. Although - I wouldn't be against looking at a 3rd or 4th round project, jettisoning Case and his huge salary hit, spending that money on a WR FA and drafting a WR in the first/second round.

As you say - who knows - but realistically the most probable future is Baker playing his 5th year option in Cleveland and a new contract pending his performance next year as our starter.

I would imagine a trade with Seattle would include Baker. Same for Houston.

I know Baker has his warts, and I'm not saying fan perspective should factor into any trades, much less one this huge.... but you are going to need a massive pair of cajones to stand behind swapping out Baker for JimmyG.

Of course a deal with Seattle would include Baker.

Berry has to look at all options.

We have plenty of very good players on the Browns. The draft for a quarterback is a long range gamble that means you will not be competitive for years even if you are clairvoyant in getting a quarterback later in the first round. Good luck with that. Top five picks fail all the time.

Options that are clear upgrades from Baker. Not really any that are a sure thing.

Wilson is. But getting him requires a lot to happen and things outside of what can be controlled.

Wilson and Seattle seems like a split can happen. He may want out and Seattle would have to be in tune to those sentiments.

Other than Wilson I see no other viable option to replace Baker.

Mayfield to Seattle, where he goes on to win the next 5 Super Bowls…

My major issue with a Wilson trade...he is already on the down side of the curve with next year being his 11th season and will going on 34 yrs of age. Injuries are beginning to become an issue as Wilson has already missed 4 games so far in 2021 season and since returning as the Seahawks starting QB, the Hawks have lost every game.

Is Wilson still in recovery mode or did the surgery fail...OR, is Wilson in need of more surgery to have a chance to return to 100%?

Do the Browns risk trading for a QB who is DAMAGED GOODS?

Just for everyone's information, Wilson's surgery was not on just "one injury"...Wilson had "two injuries" that the surgeon was trying to repair...!!

WAS THAT SURGERY CONSIDERED A SUCCESS...?

If you ask "that the question" to the team attempting to pass on a 11 yr veteran QB PROBLEM to another team, the answer is going to be WILSON IS READY TO GO.

To that team attempting to fleece a team that has dreams of Wilson leading (the Browns) to their first Super Bowl WIN..that franchise with STARS IN THEIR EYES...a tade for Wilson completes THEIR DREAM.

I have one question...when have the Browns EVER DEVELOPED THEIR OWN QB TALENT...?

Teddy Bridgewater is an UFA after this season.

That would hurt bad.

I am not proposing a trade. I am good with Baker.

I am trying to point out what options are realistic "if" Berry intends to look at options.

I firmly believe we can win a championship with Baker. I like him and support him.

At the same time one has to be prepared and look at all options if things good wrong.

We have to keep in mind if no deal is struck with Baker after next year. He could want out.

Before I say what I'm about to say, I want to make clear that I'm not advocating we replace Baker. We still have him for another year for eval (as Berry sorta alluded to), and while Baker has his warts, improving on him will require a massive trade or a massive amount of risk.


I think the nature of our offense is such that it doesn't necessarily require a world-beater at the QB position. I think it works well to maximize a guy with certain skills (able to execute a play and hit a WR on time and on target when the defense is loaded up vs the run). Baker has had trouble with post-snap reads and some basic QB technique (footwork), but he can also make the wild throws/plays when he's "on". I wonder if KS and Berry would, if given the chance, swap some of Baker's big-play ability and cannon-of-an-arm for a guy that's a little more heady, can see the field better but can't necessarily make those highlight throws. Just thinking out loud. I'm still a Baker fan.

But via that perspective it makes getting a guy like Bridgewater or even Jimmy G make a little more sense. When JG was at his best, he was riding/building off of a very good running game hitting on plays when the defense was focused elsewhere. Bridgewater is a very smart QB that won't hold an offense back, but also won't put one on his shoulders (as we saw for ourselves).

I guess I'm just subconsciously preparing myself for some serious upheaval.

I think Seattle is on the wane. I'd be more pissed if Baker went to Pittsburgh and then came back and played us twice a year like Haden.

I was pissed when the Haden ordeal went down, but with hindsight, if Baker went there and played like Haden has I'd be fine with it.

Selecting the best half of a game Mayfield played while ignoring the other half is not what I consider transparent to mean. Let me repeat this for what feels like the 100th time. I've never said Mayfield was the entire problem. I've said he is one of the problems. This is a Mayfield thread so my focus is and will remain on Mayfield. The fact he even claimed Mayfield was the problem on some plays and could have even been the problem on some other plays he wasn't sure of actually makes my point. And that was "the good half".

Let's get this straight because people keep getting perceptions that are simply not true. I have always maintained that Baker possesses the physical weapons to be a good NFL QB. I've stated that we've seen both good Baker and bad Baker. I have said that we will need to see more of Baker next season to truly know what we have. Now just in case anyone has missed it, that's not calling for Bakers head. That's not calling for us to move on. That's giving us all a chance to see what a healthy Baker can do next year. That's giving the FO a chance to see the same thing. That's giving Baker the opportunity to negotiate an extension from a place of strength if he is playing well. I don't see how any of that is an attack on Baker.

IMO Wilson is a better version of Baker and has years to play.

His injuries would of course be examined and have to be medically cleared.

All factors have to be considered.

All I am doing is trying to validate what are realistic options.

Again I like Baker. I want him to succeed in Cleveland.

But it is foolish IMO to put your head in the sand. There are factors that have to be considered.

I certainly do not advocate we make any change at this time. To get Wilson would take a kings ransom and mortgage the future. If we are considering paying a fortune and future resources for a viable QB, you will always find options to do that. That's not a move you have to make now. I'm not someone who believes that Bakers injuries play no part in his performance. How much it plays a part is anyone's guess and everyone claiming they know how much or how little of a part it's playing are using strictly conjecture.

But either way my hope is to see a healthy Baker next year before we make any rash decisions or make any hasty moves at the QB position.

NO BONE...I'm not buying your comment above. You would flush Mayfield without a question asked if the Browns traded away the future for an injured Wilson.

Damn the comments from a Super Bowl winning QB who pointed out FOR YOU and everyone to see, that what is presently going on in Cleveland cannot be blamed on Mayfield.

You sire, Bone, have those stars in your eyes that an injured Wilson who had not one injury to his throwing hand, but had two injuries to his throwing hand that the surgeons attempted to fix...you ignore the facts with DREAMS, THAT A 11 YR VETERAN ON THE DOWN SIDE OF HIS CAREER IS YOUR ANSWER TO A BROWNS SUPER BOWL.

Before we get to the off season / silly season, can we all just agree that neither Aaron Rodgers nor Russell Wilson are coming to Cleveland? What other "top tier" QB would we replace Baker Mayfield with? Matt Ryan? But is he really still top tier? I don't think he is. Baker was better than Ryan last year, and pretty close to the same this year. In 2021 Ryan has a higher TD % and QBR, but Mayfield has a lower Int % and higher QB Rate. I think its apparent that Ryan has slipped into the middle tier of NFL QBs, which is also where I put Mayfield. Ryan is going to be 38 yrs old next May and on the downside of his career, IMO. Baker will be 27, with his ceiling - whatever it is - still well within reach, again IMO.

Point being, I am not interested in any exchange of middle tier QBs, not Ryan and not Garoppolo, because I think Baker's ceiling is higher than anyone with whom we could reasonably expect to get to replace him.

You, like some others refuse to admit that Warner did actually point out that Mayfield is part of the problem and that he focused on only one half of the game while ignoring the other.

I agree. Mac. I don't want Wilson either for the reasons you mentioned. I believe we can win with Baker. I don't see Baker ever being elite but he is at least good enough IMO. We need a couple of WR's who can stretch the field. If AB sees a QB that has potential then by all means draft him but paying what it will cost in future draft picks to land Wilson is a recipe for disaster. JMO

Question - if someone says "the problem presently going on in Cleveland cannot be blamed on Mayfield." - does that mean Baker has none of the blame or does it mean he doesn't deserve all the blame? When I read it, I interpret it as Baker isn't the entire problem while acknowledging he has been part of the problem.

Baker > Ryan, Bridgewater, Jimmy G, and currently the 34 year old injured finger Wilson.

Rodgers is not coming nor is Watson.

Baker is the man for the foreseeable future - get used to it.

Which is exactly what I've been saying all along. The people I take issue with are those trying to blame everyone but Baker. I think mac is a prime example of that. I will also repeat for what also seems like the 100th time. Warner is basing that on one half of one game. What we have seen is a three week pattern of which Warner has chosen one half of one game to make an analysis on. As I've said before, if that's what someone wants to hear, they'll grab onto that and try to ignore the other two and a half games. If they want an objective look they will realize that can't be determined solely on one half of one of those three games.

Baker is part of the problem but as I said in a previous post for some reason our guys are not all on the same page with our passing game. That problem has to be ironed out with meetings and practice reps.

That simple is not true.

If you were to go back and read all that I have written in regards to Baker.

You would know it is not true.

Even on this thread I thought I made it clear. This was an exercise that "if Berry were to be looking at options to replace Baker what realistic options are there?

IMO as stated Wilson is the only real option. The other available options would not be an upgrade.

Next year there is an option for Berry to keep Baker. After that he is a free agent.

We do not have a crystal ball about how this season will end.

GM's are paid to consider the big picture which includes planning for the future.

I also stated that a Wilson trade includes factors outside of the control the Browns would have.

As far as Wilson do you know he is on the downside of his career? Brady, Rodgers, and Brees accomplished plenty past the age of Wilson.

IMO Wilson is a great quarterback. If you believe Baker is better than Wilson so be it.
IMO Wilson has proven himself to be great. Baker "so far" has not.

I like Baker and I do believe as it stands today. I would not trade him. I layed out the trade I would make and the conditions of that trade.

That in no way says I don't support keeping Baker.

He called this out just prior to bringing up the tape and said why ("people are saying how can you get 3 INTs and only score so many points"). His video was all about addressing a narrative that's already out there with film. You say Baker Mayfield isn't the entire problem, and then dismiss any legit evidence to the contrary out of hand.

Could it be OBJ messed up our passing game more than any of us thought? I'm not saying it's true but when he came back things really went south.

What I dismiss is trying to claim that breaking down one half of a single games film tells a compete story of the last three games. If you think you can diagnose an entire picture of three games based on one half of football in one of those games, so be it. I'm not dismissing any evidence. I'm putting that evidence in the context that it is one sixth of the evidence of a three game stretch. Nothing more and nothing less.

This is the type of comments that proves my point. Even weeks after he's gone people are trying to insinuate the ghost of OBJ may be the problem.

He was most definitely part of the problem, unless you think a WR going rogue is not a problem.

There were and are many reasons for why the offense has underperformed and they have been clearly stated. It is not one thing or one person.

1. WRs not running the correct routes.
2. Receivers (TEs, WRs, RBs) not running the routes properly.
3. QB not delivering or setting up properly to deliver ball on time.
4. Injuries to O-line.
5. Injuries to starting RBs.
6. QB playing injured and not 100%. Effects mobility, pocket awareness, and throwing mechanics.
7. Play calling at times has been questionable.

It has been a team effort and it will take a team effort to correct.

If you're asking if I believe that OBJ never lived up to expectations I certainly agree. What WR's have not been running the right routes or properly? Every team in the NFL deals with injuries. But this is not in any way, shape or form a serious question......
Here is what was being said by many posters. "Our offense performs better when OBJ is not on the field". Can you tell me how much better our offense has been over the past three weeks with OBJ gone?

Instead of trying to nit pick at posters and making assumptions - I think this is a good list. I think everyone - Baker fanboy or Baker sceptic would agree. Coz I don't believe there is anyone anywhere that says or thinks all the issues are on everyone except the QB.

I think the only discussion or variable is the proportion of blame that is going to be attributed to each issue -- I also think there are a few fans who believe that to be a Franchise QB Baker should - despite injury and all these issues - somehow drive the team to success regardless of what's going on and whether or not his left arm ends up being torn off.

Based on what i have seen Baker accomplish with a 1-31 team... and what he did last year when finally given the best chance / situation to succeed - Baker's actual talent and ability is the very least of the issues. They are still real - but they are the least impactful.

That's just me.

Edit - I'll add these which are sort of covered but not in detail:

- I think Stefanski's scheme is too one dimensional and doesn't allow for a response when we get down.
- I think Stefanski's schemes sometimes have too many receivers crowded into too small of an area sometimes.
- I think the WR core is below average. Especially when we have injuries. When Njoku is your deep threat - you are in trouble!

I will once again remind everyone that we were not the offensive juggernaut that seems to be the memory of the last nine regular season games last season or against the Chiefs in the playoffs. In 2020...

Nov. 15th verses the Texans we scored 10 points.

Nov. 22nd we scored 22 points against the Eagles.

Dec. 20th we scored 20 points against the Giants.

Dec. 27th we scored 16 points against the Jets.

And in our playoff game against the Chiefs we scored 17 points.

If we're going to spread blame around I think we also need to spread the credit around. Baker was an ingredient in some of our wins but he wasn't lighting it up week in and week out by carrying the team on his back. Obviously the defense was the key factor in a lot of those W's.

I am not sure I am seeing your point here exactly?

We are talking about the offensive struggles... those performances are why were are having this discussion no? Do you think someone is posting about Baker and Offensive woes AND they still think we are offensive juggernauts?

This is last years games, not this year. It was in reference to these comments by you.....
My point was that often times our memories do not objectively reflect reality. It's certainly true that Baker had some great performances last season. But if one breaks it down it's easy to see that it was sporadic. More good than bad to be sure. More than enough to show that the physical skill set is there. Many of our wins, even when looking at last season weren't by someone carrying the team on his back. Many of those wins were team accomplishments, not Baker accomplishments.

I was actually surprised by what I found. My memory had us being far more effective offensively and scoring more points the last half of last season. But that isn't the reality I found when I took a look.

Pit maybe if we had a deep threat or 2 and KS would allow Baker to throw long it would open things up and stretch the field. That right there would make our O more productive or at least it should.

That's fair. I haven't thought much about last season and how we won so much as knowing that in the last 9 or 10 games of the season which included a playoff win - Baker was graded out by PFF as being a top 5 QB (think he was 3rd over that period). Regardless of how we won, I look at that large sample size and believe it to be representative of Baker's ability. Just my take. I've mentioned elsewhere - some look at the worst Baker has played and seem to assume that's his level. I look at the best he's played (over an extended period) and believe that to be a better indicator of what his ceiling might be.

I'm hoping that you don't include me in the group that "some look at the worst Baker has played and seem to assume that's his level". Ive certainly given him credit for having the physical skill set and wish to see how he performs next year when healthy. Actually, I'm not sure who you would be talking about that thinks what we've seen over the past few weeks is his level.

So what WR's did we have last year when Baker was completing the deep ball that we don't have this year other than OBJ? What WR had success last year with catching the deep when we were winning that we no longer have? And where did you get the information that Stefanski won't let Baker throw the deep ball? In case you're wondering why I don't understand some of the reasons given this is a good place to start.

Again, it sure sounds like you're dismissing it. Maybe I'm just misreading your tone (easy to do going back and forth on a board).

So in this regard, how is breaking down just 1 half of football (what Warner did) any different than cherry-picking plays over a longer period (what pretty much everyone else has done)? In fact, most of the time they put those same type of statements ("this is my argument and now let me show you evidence that backs it up") before they show snippets of film.

I agree. OBJ was only a portion of the problem when he was here (and how much was debatable). What's not debatable is that he's no longer part of the problem.

So you're trying to dismiss that breaking down all three games in their entirety wouldn't give you a much clearer picture as to what's going on here than one half of a single game? I mean seriously?

In actuality it's me who is wanting to see all of the evidence rather than cherry pick by only looking at one sixth of it.

If you... say that.. into a mirror. Does space/time explode.
(With Love)

Who has broken down every game in its entirety?

So let me see if I got this straight. You seem to believe, from what I have seen at least, that one half of a three game stretch tells the entire story of what has happened over that three game stretch? While I believe that you would have to break down all of those three games in their entirety to get the answers. Maybe I'm reading it wrong. There are certainly pay sites that break down every game. I however do not pay for those sites. It seems that no poster on this board pays for them either or doesn't want to show us what those sites actually found. I have no idea which.

I listened to an interview today that I thought was interesting.

I can't find it now.

But the questioned posed was: "if you could fix one thing with the Browns right now; what would you fix?"

IMO as I look at the offensive struggles the Browns have had. Seven points in the fourth quarter in the last seven games.

What sticks out to me is the lack of an outside receiver threat. The Ravens game made it crystal clear. They loaded up the box and dared us to beat them outside.

We couldn't do it. Jarvis is not a deep threat. He is our best receiver. DPJ has made some big catches. However, he is a young guy who is developing. He is not a number one receiver right now.

We don't have a receiver who any team fears. Nobody who will draw double coverage. Not a guy who will be an all pro this season. When we are behind late and need a touchdown or more.

We are in trouble. I heard AVP echo that. Some will want to lay it on Baker. Baker needs help in order to have success.

He is not going to carry a team with no talent around him. He needs time to throw. He needs a running game. And he needs an above average receiver unit.

You can't expect Baker or any other qb to be able to throw deeper routes if guys are not open. Look at Brady's numbers this year when Antonio Brown is not playing. They go way down. Burrow with Chase and Higgins.

You want to come from behind late in the fourth quarter? You can't be one dimensional. What did KS do when we were third and long late? He called a draw play. When that failed we punted.

Losing Conklin was a huge loss both in the run game but gigantic in the pass game. We don't have the tools to spread out a defense and go to a fast pace passing attack.

It will be interesting to see how we game plan next week. You can't do the same thing and expect different results.

I asked "Who has broken down every game in its entirety?"

and you somehow twist that into this...?


Whenever you do want to have an honest conversation about this, I'll be here.

This is what I was responding to. That and your comment about cherry picking. From my perspective it seems as though you wish to site and claim validity to Warner's comments and while I do as well, I think it only covers one half of a game out of a three game stretch and it may very well not apply to the remaining games or even the other half of the game he broke down.

I did also cover the fact that there are sites that break down games in their totality. I'll try to be more clear over what I'm responding to so we don't have future miscommunications.

No I don't - but there are many that do. And many fans from other teams don't know JACK and many talking heads know JACK and have decided the book on Baker is written ... it ain't.

That makes more sense. Sorry for the extra sass.

Stephen A. had Dan Orlovsky on his show.

Dan O made an interesting point that I believe is 100% correct.

He said he doesn't like the term franchise quarterback. He breaks quarterbacks into four categories.

1.) Quarterbacks you win because of

2.) Quarterbacks you with

3.) quarterbacks you win despite of

4.) quarterbacks you can't win with


Baker currently is in category two.

That makes perfect sense to me.

Agreed and we can win with a QB like that as long as he has good players around him. We need a couple of better WR's that can stretch the field.

I agree

Bone I enjoy reading your posts and agree with much of what you say. I feel that with those 2 WR's I mentioned and I have no idea who they might be, along with a run stuffing DL we can be much better. We could use another top level LB and with the further development of JOK and Jacob Phillips we can have a D that would be dominant consistently. JMO

No problem. It's easy for the reader to get confused of the intent and easy for the messenger to send a message someone else can find confusing. That's why God invented the telephone. It's much easier to gain intent and clarify things by voice than it is in print.

Thanks HD.

It is hard to say how this year will end. I am disappointed so far.

Looking back I think a lot was expected from Odell. When he didn't play in the first game. I was not good with that.
The only reason given was. He didn't think he was ready. All we had heard up to that point was how good he looked.

So, not long after the drama started. Odell forces his hand. DPJ missed time. Jarvis missed time. Chubb missed time and then Hunt. Then Conklin goes down, comes back and is gone for the year.

Wills? I am not seeing it with him. I expected him in his second year to be really good. He has not looked good.

So, this year may become a step back instead of a step forward.

However we have added talent especially Newsome and JOK. I expect Clowney back. McDowell was an incredible find. We have lots of good talent.

Whatever, happens this year I will remain optimistic. Both Berry and Stefanski are young smart guys who will figure this out. Expect upgrades at receiver. More OL help. As well as any place they can improve.

Baker IMO will remain and their plans will be adjusted.

Bone...THAT WAS DAMN GOOD...!!

It's almost like a sophomore slump for the whole team and coaches but really the injuries had the most to do with it. Well we'll be picking a lot higher in the draft than any of us had anticipated. Very little consolation though.

I don't put a lot of stock in late round picks ; DPJ , Swartz , Felton and such .. But Berry did draft Wils and Hudson , cause for concern ?

Wills was good his 1st year so the potential is there plus he's been hurt most of the year. We have one of the best O-line coaches in the league in Bill Callahan. I'm sure he will give wills a lot of attention.

No concern. No GM hits on every pick.

The later the round the more the odds fall. You hope that those later picks are guys who develop.

Schwartz so far has not contributed. However, he came in raw. He had straight line speed and not much else.

I don't know if he will ever turn out. Coverage in the NFL is way better than college. Nobody gets open like they do in college. You have to fight for it in the pros. You have to win contested balls. I like physical receivers. I watch those guys that win 50/50 balls.

Everybody is fast. If you have great speed with quickness to separate and you have hands then you can win. Tyreek Hill is like that.
Not many guys have that. So, you have to be physical. Have to high point the ball and have great hands.

Felton has shown some skills. He has good hands and he can shake after the catch. We have to many guys in front of him.
Hudson is one of those you hope will develop.

Wills has the skills of a first rounder. He has the coaching to develop. I don't know about him?

He looks good on run plays. He has not been good in pass protection.

I don't get people knocking Wills. He has been hurt, so that has slowed him, but when he is out, the curve goes down significantly. I believe down the road, he will be considered a very good LT.

As for Schwartz, the kid is frail, and goes down very easy. Felton has shown one move, the spin. Now it doesn't work anymore. he has good hands and quickness, but he is putrid on kick returns. He constantly runs backwards. Guys like Cribbs, caught the ball and went forward, none of this trying to run to the edge. This is the pros, the guys chasing you are probably just as fast, or faster than you.

As for receivers, I like big and fast. Tired of these short speedsters. Just like I said above, in this league, the guy covering you could be as fast or faster than you are. Being big, and physical is needed, along with speed. We always seem to have either the small guys, who are supposed to be quick, or the taller guys, that are not physically dominant. DPJ , IMO, is going to become one these guys. He's not real big, but he can be physical, and challenge for the ball. Hopefully, that is what is on Berry's plate for the next draft. It's the missing piece, I think.

I hope Hudson, is one of those guys that sits a couple years and learns, then comes in year three polished and ready to go. He, and Hance have both been moved around a lot. Hard to hone your skills at one position, when at a drop of a dime, you could be playing anywhere on the line. Building the proper strength, and working with Callahan can do wonders.

The knock on Wills is that he's not Joe Thomas. He's plenty good, he's just not one of the Greats.
He'll be fine.

What Baker needs most is receivers like Schwartz...speed. This is key. You fill in the possession receiver positions with TEs. If the primary position is RB, you play two-speed guys on the outside to stretch the field and make teams pay trying to fill the box.

Right now teams with two good corners can fill the box against Cleveland's offense. THIS is what hurts Baker. He is forced to pass into tight windows facing heavy pressure.

Three or four speed-receivers forces teams to defend. They don't need to be superstars. Speed and more speed.

FWIW, I do believe that Baker is part of the problem.. What I don't know is why? We've seen this guy light it up one week and the very next week, lay an egg.

Is it Stefanski?
Is it the receivers?
Is it the injuries to Baker?
Is it the line play?

I guess what I'm saying is that there isn't a clearly defined answer.. I don't see it anyway.

Baker is our QB this year.. Perhaps next. I have faith in him and Stefanski and Berry. Let it be, I have faith it will work out. Can't say I know how.. Not at this point. But I"m pretty sure that has nothing to do with Bringing in Jimmy G or Wilson or the cry baby from Green bay.

The Browns have three years of control on Baker.

They picked up his fifth year option for 2022.

After 2022 they can franchise him for two years.

Honestly, I see no reason why they would not keep him on a year to year basis.

All other options involve higher risk. The draft? Please that is the highest risk.

Free agents. There are no free agents that would be an improvement.

Trades? All trade options would require the player accepting the deal and loss of high draft picks.

I don't see it happening. They know all there is to know about Baker. Both good and bad as well as his intangibles.

Agreed. We have Baker and right now, as you stated in your post, there aren't really any viable options unless we really want to mortgage the future. From what I've heard on talk shows Rodgers and Wilson won't come here. The draft? forget it. We weren't able to draft anybody good for nearly 20 years. Baker is our guy we just need to get him a couple of speed WR's.

They do know all there is to know about Baker. And whether they move forward with him as our QB after next season will depend on what they know based on his first five seasons. Both the good and the bad. I have no idea if they will view him as a QB who can "take them where we want to go" or not. But if not there would be no reason for them to pay a huge franchise tag price for two more seasons. If they do think he can "take them where we want to go" there would be no reason not to sign a long term contract extension to keep him here long term. If they can't figure it out based on five years of work they'll never figure it out. Next year will be his third year in the same system. They'll know.

watching the pitt vs balti game looks like we are a little too rough on Baker? Shannon sharp screaming about baker and his measly 3 stinking points in the first half

Remember DPJ dropped a ball right in his hands on the 10 yard line on the first drive.

I've noticed quite a bit of bad play by top QBs this year. Is it something league wide? Could it be the change in practices, being less physical and too far off of game speed?

If defenses do what they always do: adjust.

We talk about all the QBs, yet look how important running the football still is. That’s why I love football, cause both sides find a way to balance each other.

QBs are having to really prove if their talented or not. Look how tight the AFC is. There’s still a realistic chance for us to win the division. Even though an extra team gets into the playoffs, there’s only 1 team who gets a bye, meaning every game just got even more important than previous seasons.

I’m resetting and hoping for a 2nd half run after this bye. Baker has got some rest, some of the more nagging injuries should be lessened/gone.

Now it’s his time to prove if he’s a franchise QB or not. 5 games left, what’s he gonna show us?

I hope greatness.

I'd take subpar winners on a lucky street if it gets us a spot in the playoffs. Limp in, luck in, back in, just get in.

pretty easy routes not bad for a HS team

come on SKI be a little more creative and your special trick plays suck!

So does passing at a 50% comlpletion ratio.

The best Baker is at category 2
The average Baker is between category 3 - 2
We have had plenty of Baker at 4 but very few at one.

Question is how many games did Baker win? 7 game winning drives if I remember correctly, Case Keenun has 10, Jared Goff has 9.

He is not stellar, he does not have the locker room, why keep him?
IMHO he is Timmy 2.0, the worst that can happen to a team, not good enough to succeed, not bad enough to get cut, with the baggage of being the savior and plenty of fans willing to make any excuse for him.

By the way, arguing that the team was much worst before him and that with him the team started wining just upsets all the ones who are not Baker fans. Chubb is much more responsible for the wins and he isn't taking any credit, he does not need to.

No offense but I will take Dan O opinion over yours.

Saying he doesn't have the locker room is pure speculation on your part.

I agree with you that's is purely speculative. By that same token I haven't seen the offensive unit play with the spark it did when people were claiming we "are better without OBJ". Now many of those same people claim the WR's suck. Something is amiss here but I have no idea what that is.

There was a track record, however much it may have been merely non-causal correlation, of us playing better without OBJ. I never bought into it, but it WAS there and after OBJ's antics to get out of here, it seemed to gain some validity.... HOWEVER, another take based purely in speculation, but supported by the existing known facts, is there is some sort of rift or unease with the players/receivers and the coaches on how the offense is/should be(ing) handled. It would explain OBJ just wanting to cut bait, the mystery around Higgins, the frustration tweet by Hunt's Dad, and perhaps even Baker's apparent regression as well as the ineffectiveness of everything offensively, in general.

It *could* simply be that Conklin makes this much of a difference on the line and Baker is actually hurting a lot more than is let on, and defenses are actually playing us better than they did last year... but, that doesn't really make sense. Those few small things don't add up to the complete turnaround in offensive power we've seen.
Nick Freaking Chubb can't run the ball suddenly.
Our OLine can't run block suddenly and we give up pressures in the pass game all over the place.
TEs and WRs struggle to get open.
Despite an offense designed to run & pass both left and right, short and long, from the exact same looks and personnel groups, it seems defenses know EXACTLY what we're about to run every single play. Things are WAY too easily covered.
The QB who made his chops on accuracy, particularly on outside shoulder throws at the sideline, suddenly has issues where balls are a bit short and on the inside shoulders; perfectly placed for DBs in trailing coverage.

So... maybe there is some malaise and frustration in the lockerroom because they ALL KNOW we're better than we've been playing, but for some reason - perhaps schematically - we're just not being allowed to be as good as we should be.
I have no idea, and the entire notion seems kinda crazy, but it also probably wouldn't even crack the Top 20 in the craziest things that have happened behind the scenes in Berea over the last 15 years.

Conklin may or may not be "all that", but the dropoff from him to Hance (backup guard) is huge. Again, Hance isn't even a tackle. Such a huge dropoff for a team who's strength is in the trenches and running the ball would make sense to be pretty debilitating.

Oh, no doubt... but, he's only 1 of 5 and his presence doesn't - or shouldn't - affect the number of times things have gotten blown up from the left side, or that we struggle to run left as well as right.

It feels to me that they have become so predictable on offense, it no longer is effective. They need to make wholesale changes to the scheme for this last run. Chubb and Hunt on the field together would be a start.

I'm not saying one guy (to purp's point) explains it all, but when you have such a dropoff in talent on one side, you have defenses attacking that weak point and you become "one-handed" in the run game. I've heard TV guys say in-game that we are heavily biased running to one side due to injuries.

I agree
I cannot predict the play before they come out of the huddle, but once they line up I am correct on pass vs run middle/left vs run middle/right about 75% of the time. And that is coming from a guy who hasn't studied film and didn't even play HS football. All I do is watch the Browns games on TV. A smart professional defensive player wearing the green dot having spent all week studying film probably has a 90%+ hit prediction rate.

The Dropoff from Conklin to Hance used to be a dropoff from Conklin to Chris Hubbard. And Hubbard was/is a starting caliber tackle.
also last year there was Kendall Lamm.

The Browns got 12 sacks on Bears Quarterback in the bears game, but people don't want to remember they gave up 5? or 6?, a bunch of sacks to the bears defense in that game. And that was before the Conklin injury.
In 2020 the Browns benefited numerous times from the quality of Hubbard or Lamm as a replacement as the 6th and 7th man on that 5 man OL still being starting caliber. It was better than most years. In 2021 it seems the Browns are back to a more normal year of backup quality, not starter quality to their 6th and 7th rotating in player on the 5 man starting Offensive Line.

It could mean any of the things you listed. It could also mean that the WR's and offense as a whole have lost faith in Baker. I mean if pure speculation is what we're using as a gauge here one guess is as good as the other.

Doesn't that happen any time that any team has an OT out of the game? I mean I do understand your point, but these types of injuries and pressure coming against the backups happens all the time. You simpy keep a TE in to help our use a RB to help block. This isn't a special or unique situation in the NFL.

It absolutely could mean that, I suppose. I don't think it does because what I see on the field seems to indicate that Baker and the WRs still have a good repoire, but this is why I presented it as my thoughts on what could be happening and didn't state it as being anything else.

Brain fart forgot what I was posting...lol

Yes and no. We've already lost our main backup (Hubbard), and our O-line can be considered the engine of our offense. Our starter is now a guy we picked off the scrap heap late last year and is a guard (can't emphasize that last one enough).

This cannot be quoted enough. Our starting RT is our 4th string guy and he's playing because the 3rd stringer isn't good enough... and that 4th stringer is a Guard (and a Backup at OG at that), a guy who isn't as suited to moving in space as someone that is a more natural Tackle. Having a TE help him block is pretty much the same as just having two TE's out there as rushers are just going to go around the one and push the other aside.

The entire situation is completely on Berry. He's done amazing things with the roster since being here, but the RT situation this season is DEFINITELY a major knock against him. Even bringing in an aging veteran would have been better than doing what we did, which is absolutely nothing. As soon as Hubbard was lost for the year, SOMETHING should have been done to shore up position so that this isn't the position we'd be in, ESPECIALLY when we went through that brief stretch without Hubbard, Wills, and Conklin. Maybe there was nobody available that we were enamored with, but I find it difficult to think that there was nobody out there better than a backup OG.... and had we pulled the trigger back then, that player would be hitting their stride right now, coming out of the Bye.

I don't necessarily dismiss your point but I also feel that keeping in a TE or RB to help block is the method for dealing with that situation and I also feel that other teams deal with similar situations. Sometimes multiple injuries on the OL for long stretches at a time.

True... all teams deal with injuries. I did say that the RT situation doesn't explain everything, but do want to highlight how our injuries are uniquely affecting us (our depth was depleted when Hubbard went on IR, and we rely a LOT on the Oline).

Hubbard is a great depth piece and I highly doubt they thought we would sustain the quantity of injuries we did at the tackle position. So aside from that, I agree with you that essentially having nothing behind your (albeit very capable) primary backup is surprising.

Kurt Warner is the expert, I'll defer to him:

Does Warner believe Mayfield, 26, can reach the point where he's capable of consistently elevating the Browns?

“What I've seen from Baker, I would say no,” Warner said. “I would say I haven't seen him show me that he can be that guy. I'm only going to go off of what I've seen up to this point. I'm looking at tape. I'm not seeing him every day in practice. I don't know the makeup of him in the room. I don't know some of the X factors that go into it.

“Simply by looking at the tape, I haven't seen good enough consistency by him to say that he can be a franchise guy at this point. I'm not in the business of having to project out two years. I'm just simply going off what he's done in these four years, and I just think he's been wildly inconsistent and inconsistent enough that I'm saying to myself, 'I'm not banking on this guy carrying me to a Super Bowl if he can't put together games in a season at a certain level of consistency that you need from that position.'”

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story...terback-ravens-lamar-jackson/6442742001/

The context that is missing, of course, is Why?
There is no doubt that he is inconsistent. What is the Why behind those inconsistencies. If the answer is predominantly Baker, then we just need to accept that Baker is Nick Foles (or Rex Grossman or Jay Cutler) and move on. Yes, I'm focused on Bears QBs there because when I think of highly touted, highly hyped QBs that turn out to only ever be barely average with flashes of being good enough, they're the patent holders.

However, if the answer is predominantly things outside of Baker, then that needs an honest evaluation and immediate correction.
We are four years in and we *should* be seeing more consistency, however, the crazy thing about this year is the amount of INSANE INCONSISTENCY we are seeing from ALL of the QBs, even the media darling "elite" QBs.
It seems that the real difference maker for QBs at the top this year has been the WRs... it's no coincidence that the top QBs (in yardage) all have a WR in the Top 10, too. Kyler Murray gets a lot of love, but he has less yardage than Baker. He has more TDs than Baker, but I think that is a factor or team efficiency and not individual effort. If nothing else, it probably highlights how often we have drives end because we shoot ourselves in the foot with the procedural crap or take sacks. Part of the issue is the number of different coaches, OCs, and systems he's had to deal with in his four years. Obviously, especially this year, a good chunk is injuries - both his and his offense's.... but, what's the rest? How much of it is him not being good enough and how much is something external to him?

I didn’t post the whole article but he gets into it pretty deep.

why not?

Because I didn’t want to take the time. The link should suffice. Support local newspapers !

Some other quotes from the same article



"It's too simple to just say it's all about Baker,” Warner said. “I look at their team and I say to myself, 'If they can't run the football, they're an average football team.' I don't see them being dominant in any area besides the run game, so when they're going to struggle in the run game, I'm not sure they have the weapons on the outside that says we can just drop back and pass the ball 40 times."

"If he's in pain, that affects everything,” Warner said. “If you're playing in pain and you feel that pain in the course of a game, that can, of course, affect you."

"Most of that stuff would either be blocked out or dulled by some sort of medication, so I wasn't feeling it in game."

"I think any lower-body injury that you're feeling can definitely affect things because the lower body to me is the most important part of throwing and accuracy.”

"That's how I see [Mayfield],” Warner said. “I see him as a guy who's a good quarterback. You put all the pieces around him, and they'll go to the playoffs. Can they win a championship with him if you've got all the pieces around him? Probably"

"Baker is definitely a starting quarterback in this league. It's just a matter of what level do you put him at."

actually, he doesn't. Everything he says is pretty superficial. Not really knocking him as its the nature of his business to say superficial things; say things without saying things or ever looking too deep.
Heck, in his own quotes that you posted, he states that he doesn't know the "x factors" and the article talks about how he states that at least the 1st Half issues weren't Baker's fault.

I'll take his assessment at face value - and I do see the humor in him also comparing Baker to Bears QBs - but, I'll reserve the right to take it all with a gigantic grain of salt until and unless he actually does a deep, honest look and determines how much of the inconsistency that is the issue is the fault of Baker.

We've seen really extended periods of elite level play from Baker, so he is not the typical "flash in a pan" inconsistency. When I think of Dalton, Cutler, Foles.... I think of guys whose sine waves are more game-to-game. At most, you get a couple of games in a row where they're good, but they always come back to the mean. Even Foles in his Super Bowl run had stretches where they won simply because he didn't make too many mistakes. Baker, though, we saw all of the last half of the season and into the playoffs where we were freaking lighting things up because of him and the throws he was making. I'm not saying that is the end-all, be-all, but it needs to be noted and it needs to be evaluated. What is different now? What was working then that isn't working now - and Why?

It was a really good read. For someone that posted that first-half Ravens breakdown, he's pretty meh on Baker overall. When he slotted Baker in with Dalton and Cousins, that got an audible "OOF" from me here at the work office.

Some tidbits that I found interesting and/or helpful

-his numbers this year track really closely with his career numbers... I think that speaks to Warner's point earlier on really not liking/getting hung up on Baker's overall inconsistency.
-Overall, Warner took very much a "he is what he is" stance on Baker. He's not bad, but he's not a member of that elite category. He expects that will mean Baker will play out his extension but probably not stick with the Browns afterwards. A big part of that is the silly money other teams will hand to him in FA.

Overall, Warner's takes seem very fair and transparent (if a little blunt) based on the info available.

If I'm looking for a Why, I think this is it and it is actually just about what I saw myself and just posted an hour ago somewhere else on here. He doesn't mention our OLine issues (has anyone else noticed that there hasn't been a single Tweet from Baldy in his love-fest with 'The Union' this year?), but they are definitely a part of things, for sure.

Baldy has definitely tweeted out some “Union” videos earlier in the year.

What I meant by deep is that he explains that he needs more context.

ahh, I haven't seen them (well, I don't recall seeing them... I'm sure I probably did and just don't remember)

So he said if you "build the perfect team around him" we can win. Otherwise, not so much.

You fancy yourself as some sort of written-word-mind-reader...well FYI...you are not anywhere near good at that.

It's not that complicated.


I'd love to know what the hell you think he could probably win a championship if you put all the pieces around him means.

Well, one way to take that is that the receivers around him now aren't very good.

Dan Orlovsky needs to shut the 3*** up. He's been wrong about ALOT of ****!

He didn't say "perfect". I would like for you to list the QBs that have routinely made the playoffs and won super bowls without a fair amount of talent around them.

For some reason you see, "You put all the pieces around him" the same as, "a fair amount of talent around them". It certainly doesn't read that way to me.

If you think the only position Warner was referring to was the WR position, then you have a point. For some reason I'm having trouble seeing "You put all the pieces around him" as strictly the WR's. I think it would have been much more likely for Warner to have specified a position if a single position was what he meant. I'm looking at what he actually said and not what I think it says.

I happen to think our Oline and RB positions are top-notch and I also happen to think our TEs are, relatively speaking, very good. That leaves the WRs.

Yes, I do see them as about the same.. "all the pieces" = "a fair amount of talent"... of course that talent has to be spread through the position groups, OL, RBs, WRs, TEs, play calling... Right now we are loaded at RB (when healthy), solid on the OL (especially for run blocking), TEs have been a disappointment, deficient at WR, and play calling has been somewhat suspect at times...

In the end analysis it will be up to Andrew Berry to make this decision this off season:

Should the Browns give up draft picks and trade for an available quarterback?

Or, use those draft picks and free agency to upgrade around Baker?

The quarterbacks that may be available all have a hitch. Rodgers and Wilson would have to agree to come to Cleveland.
Watson has all kinds of hurdles to clear.

Matt Ryan, Derek Carr, are most likely staying put and they are more like band aids.

I don't see it. IMO Berry will take the route with Baker and working on the roster.

Agreed. At this time that would be the most prudent way to go.

The decision is an easy one, really.

It all begins with Stefanski & Berry & Van Pelt all determining an honest Why regarding the reasons this offense has so grossly underperformed and how much of that is Baker's share, vs how much is on Stefanski and how much is on other players, or even Berry for not fixing the RT spot.

If they determine that most of the issues aren't on Baker's shoulders, then there's no chance that you do not give him a contract.
If it's 40-60 to 60-40, either way, then you have to ask how much is fixable and what does that look like long term. If it's worthwhile, or close to it, you give the contract, otherwise, you roll the dice and find a way to move on to something better without imploding the team as-is.

If 60+% of the fault lays on Baker, however - and we'd have seen that over and over and over again in every game if it was all his fault, then there is a zero percent chance that he should get a new deal.


I'm seeing some folks making a big deal over how much of the team needs to be built up around them versus how much the QB elevates.... but, be realistic about this. It isn't even arguable on any level that Aaron Rodgers is one of the best to ever play the position and he is routinely credited for "elevating" his receivers, lol, yet he has only gone to one Super Bowl and is on record as being kinda vocal about wanting better receivers.

Big Ben, as much as I hate to say it, is a first-ballot Hall of Famer... but, in years that he didn't have a Hines Ward or Santonio Homes or Mike Wallace or even Ju-Ju, he hasn't been all that.
No matter how good a QB is, there has to be something there to elevate; you can't turn crap into gold.

Wilson says he is staying in Seattle.

https://www.nfl.com/news/qb-russell-wilson-hopes-to-play-in-seattle-for-20-years

Of the possibles that was the only legit one.

So Baker it will be for the foreseeable future.

JMO but I never thought Wilson, Rodgers or Watson were ever coming here. I wouldn't want Watson anyways with all the problems he has. Baker will be our guy for the foreseeable future.

Bone....I believe I read that Wilson has a NO TRADE CLAUSE

He does.

The OL has been plenty banged up - I wonder how many games we've played with a healthy starting 5 on the OL? Maybe 3 games?
RB I think we are tops in the NFL.
TE's - we don't have that much of a drop off from 1 thru 3rd string, so in one regards they are a deep/solid group... But none of them is a stud.

Looking at his entire NFL Career - I have some whys that I believe to be relevant: 4 HC in 3 years. 4 OC in 3 years. Hue Jackson. Freddie Kitchens.... then a rebuild of his mechanics at the start of his 3rd year under KS with a new QB coach changing his footwork. Then there were two "bad weather games" .... Folks pretty much gave Mac Jones and Josh Allen a pass this past week because of the bad weather - in the 2020 Raiders game the weather was as bad and Baker threw 12/25 and got panned for it. In the Texans game Nov 15th it was worse with gusts up to 72 mph ... Baker went 12/20 and again got panned.

Maybe Baker just isn't that good - but I see valid reasons for most of his really bad play in addition to his own issues. Those reasons/influences add and create the acute inconsistency to my mind. I mean Kitchens was a truly inept HC - but Baker was also ill prepared that season and over weight and out of condition, there is blame enough for both of them, but I don't believe Baker has been given the same stable opportunity for success as Lamar or Allen for example.

Baker will be the Browns quarterback next year.

I don't see anyway that does not happen.

So, the NFL is all about results. If the team wins and he plays well. All is good.

2022 will be his third year in the system. Berry will have the opportunity to upgrade key areas of the team.

Baker's future with the Browns will be dictated by the results of the 2022 season.

I sure hope it all works out. It will be horrible to go looking again.

I don't even want to think about that.

It will mean that the Browns will be going nowhere for a long time.

Agreed .... I'm still hoping for the journey to greatness starts this season !! A win this weekend and anything can happen. A little bye week magic .... who knows what we see this year. Stefanski hasn't always called the best games - but he seems plenty smart, hopefully he can adjust his scheme to account for not having Conklin at RT and having WR's who aren't studs. The key may need to be a transformation of DPJ and possibly finding an impactful 3rd WR option to use when needed.

You forgot to mention that this year Baker has been incredibly beaten up physically. Despite what he and the team has been saying, it has most certainly affected his performance. He had the bye week to get healthy. Let's see what he does this week and the rest of the season.


He should have sat against Detroit. People argued what is better 50% Baker or 100% Case but that is a short sighted argument. The question should have been, what is better, Baker at 50%, 50%, 50% or Case at 100% Baker at 80%, Baker at 80%


I agree with you about Allen and Lamar. Allen has 2 good games and 2 bad games and the narrative is he is so good, he just had a couple bad games. When Baker does that he sux. Lamar has 8 interceptions in his last 4 games. Why is nobody talking about that? Yes he had some good years but he has never been great as a passer. His primary value is his running ability which is awesome. So what has happened? Teams were afraid to blitz him for fear of giving up giant runs. But now they have figured out how to blitz him in a way that keeps him from scrambling. Right now Lamar is really confused and can't figure out how to handle it. If he figures it out look out but if he doesn't he is going to continue to struggle leaving the ravens quite vulnerable.

If we win this week then we are right there in the middle of things. Not in the driver's seat but definitely the co-pilot chair. We lose and the season is essentially over.

Quoting bone's post but really responding to Purp. The additional layer of your decision tree is also the part where you determine how to upgrade. Because if you decide to move on from Baker, then the next obvious step is to get someone better (or at least better suited) for the offense. As much as we all like to nitpick/blast Baker, I think it's this second part that's really going to be the hang-up. Who is out there (via FA, via draft, or via non-pie-in-the-sky trade)? If Wilson is truly off the market, that doesn't leave a whole lot in terms of upgrades to Baker. FA's includes the likes of Bridgewater, Garrapolo (?), and ....? Draft is a crapshoot and we're not picking top ten.

Well we had posters suggesting Cam would be an upgrade over Baker. So somewhere there is a Baker Hater that thinks releasing Baker and signing Dalton or Bridgewater would be a positive.

To be clear I thought Cam would be an upgrade over Keenum if Baker missed time.

I'm certainly not saying they will decide to move on from Baker. I actually agree with bonefish that they will determine that after the 2022 season. But I do feel there is a flaw to your logic.

If and when they decide Baker can't get the job done, it's no longer about Baker or upgrading from Baker. It's about trying to find a QB that can get the job done. As I said, "if or when" they decide Baker will never get us where we want to go, at that point it's about living in mediocrity or trying to do more. No coaching staff or franchise owner will decide to stay in limbo. At some point if they decide Baker isn't the answer, they will have to try and find someone they think that is.

The most traditional way to do that is draft one. Yet hardly anyone is mentioning that option. God knows I don't wish to go down that road and start all over. Nothing would make me happier than to see a healthy Baker in 2022 lighting up the scoreboard and taking us to the playoffs next year. Hell I would love to see things turn around and us go to the playoffs this year. But as of now we are who we are and we are where we are.

Amen.

I don't even like thinking about moving on from Baker.

The draft is such a long shot. Hell even with the first pick.

Striking gold late in the first or some other round. Yes, it does happen. But damn those are some long shot odds.

Playing quarterback in the NFL at an elite level is really hard to do. I marvel at guys like Rodgers.

The way he plays blows my mind. He makes pin point throws while going backwards and not stepping into throws. He does it all the time.

I remember when I first saw Mahomes's college tape. I was floored. I knew he was raw but I really believed he would be great.

I wrote vers a whole thing about Mahomes and why he would be incredible if he went to the right coach. He was a perfect fit with Reid.

It takes great ability to play that position at a high level for a long time. Think about all the hype surrounding some of the former high picks.

Winston, Mariotta, Goff, David Carr, Jamarcus Russell, Sam Bradford, Vince Young, Ryan Leaf, RGIII. The list goes on.


The damn Packers go from Farve to Rodgers. Look where we have gone. Ugly to horrid.

Baker all of sudden looks real good.

The thing is, if after the 2022 season they decide they are going to move on from Baker it means we won't be drafting "late in the first". But you are certainly right about finding a true, quality NFL QB in the draft being a long shot. But I'll go back to my original thoughts. If or when it is determined Baker isn't the answer, sticking with him is what the team would be determining is a long shot at success too.

For the record, there were three weather games, all in a row.
And the talking heads panned him all season for his "3 game slump" like they were actually making astute observations of something.

I remember that stretch.. they failed to mention that he played as well, or better, given the conditions than the QB he faced and we won 2 of them.

Yup, and that stretch is STILL brought up from time to time when an "analyst" recaps his career.

Just for fun...

In that 3 game stretch, Baker was 36 for 67, 458 yards, 0 TDs, 0 INTs, averaged 12.7 ppg - Rating 75.3 (Browns 2-1)

In the last 4 games, Lamar was 80 for 135, 857 yards, 5 TDs, 6 INTs, averaged 15.2 ppg - Rating 71.4 (Ravens 2-2) and I don't think weather was a huge factor in any of them...

I wasn't thinking so much of Lamar with that reminder of the bad weather games ... but Mac Jones and New England. They just played a game with winds of up to 45 mph. They made a HUGE deal about it - and Mac Jones attempted a total of 3 passes .... that is the new QB media darling who has been christened by all a Franchise QB. He's so good - they trusted him to throw the ball 3 times. People bang on about Baker being trusted by Stefanski but Mac throwing 3 times in bad weather and it's all about what a genius BB is - nothing about the limited play selection by the QB. . . And if the game was a blow out and never in doubt I would say it didn't matter, but the reality anyone could have won the game going into the 4th Q and barring a good bounces for NE, Bills could have easily walked away with a W.

Anyway the point stands - in last year's bad play period, while learning new footwork and mechanics, Baker played in 3 (my memory is corrected) bad weather games.... definitely part of the 'Why' in my perspective.

The Browns just released JaMarcus Bradley...Baker's WR/TE pass-catching options tomorrow are as follows:

Landry - Limited all week in practice...dinged up for most of the year

DPJ - Hopefully fully healthy and developing from his 6th Rd, 2nd year player status

Higgins - Not good enough to play last game ahead of JaMarcus Bradley

JoJo Natson - 2nd straight week call-up from the practice squad

Hooper - Yeah...Hooper

Miller Foristall - Call-up from the practice squad...He's tall


Hmmm...I wonder if the Ravens will dare us to throw...I know I would.

And you know that when they put 8 in the box all day it'll be because of Baker.

Landry hadn't looked the same since he was injured. I hope he is close to 100% after the bye. DPJ has flashed. Higgins is a head scratcher. We need a couple of them to show up and we need some plays that are more than vanilla while not being gadget/cute.... And when the play works Baker has to deliver catchable balls. I'm feeling positive .... But I don't expect it to be pretty.

Isn't this the exact same group of WR's people were saying "looked better without OBJ"? Now the excuse is they're all a bunch of scrubs. The story changes based on which way the wind is blowing.

Already addressed that - and you are like a dog with a bone. A bone called agenda.

Explain to me how this is not possible? This group of WR is better without OBJ. This group of WR is below average? They are not mutually exclusive.

Yet nobody was saying that then. Only now. The talk on the board before this season started was how much talent we had in the WR department. Now suddenly they suck according to some. I guess they want it both ways and it changes only according to the score board. My only agenda is getting people to at least make an earnest attempt to be honest with themselves and stop all the double talk. I want Baker and the Browns to succeed as much as anyone here.

But if people keep continually blaming the WR's and anyone and everyone else for the fact our QB has only been completing about 50% of his passes over the past three games it makes an honest discussion impossible. When someone points that out and emphasizes it, rather than people being honest about it people such as yourself try to claim the one who points is out is the one with an agenda. You may find a mirror helpful.

Yep...and they were wrong then...and even more wrong now.

This time you're right.

OK - I guess an honest discussion is impossible with you regards Baker.

Instead - just answer one question: Do you think our WR core that plays today is Elite - Very Good - Good - Average - Below Average of Bad.

Just answer that one question - thanks.

It's the same WR group that everyone said was better without OBJ. Which they clearly aren't. It's the same WR group everyone claimed was so talented before the season began. Now all of that is true.

A direct answer to your question. As of this time I don't know. Right now the QB is only completing 50% of his passes. It's very hard for me to give you an evaluation of the WR group when the QB is playing so poorly.

I believe I was one not liking our WR other than the fan boy in me suggesting they could be great. Disappointed in OBJ. I thought he could have been better. But now it's time to move on from Landry as well. I believe I had that.

We can move an from anyone you like. But that really isn't going to help if we keep blaming every WR we sign or draft for what's ailing this team.

Cause it’s always something else. Apparently our receivers were so good last year without OBJ, and now all of a sudden they all suck.

Soon, it will be the O Line, then the running backs. And when they finally get to baker…it will all be Andrew berry’s fault instead.

We have fans proclaiming that our receivers are nothing but scrubs now that OBJ forced his way out of Cleveland.

I"m going to focus on Higgins...is he a scrub?...those who portray themselves as EXPERTS at evaluating the Browns WR talent, SPEAK UP...LET'S HEAR FROM YOU...!!

Was Higgins a "SCRUB LAST SEASON"...?

My opinion "BASED ON THE FACTS", is that Higgins was the Browns #2 WR, based on his production on field, during the 2020 regular season and during the playoff games in 2021.

SOMEONE DECIDED TO PUSH HIGGINS INTO A BACKUP ROLE in 2021, replacing him with a TE or one of our part-time wrs.

The Browns management and/or coaching staff, decided to push Higgins into a backup role to the extent of making Higgins a healthy scratch in the most important game of the year against the Ravens. I'm not the only Browns fans to ask the question why would the Browns analytical management or the Browns coaching staff RESORT TO NOT PLAYING THEIR BEST PLAYERS in the most important game of the year, against the Ravens on Nov 28, 2021?

Since nothing has changed since Nov 28, I would expect the same starting lineup...

What?
….that’s not it.

No. You are the only person saying that it's all one thing or all the other. Only you. Despite claims that you can't evaluate Baker - everything you write implies that it's all Baker - or all "something else" and the something else is presented as an excuse. It's only you that is suggesting that any contributing factors (like injury, WR's, injuries along the OL and play calling) are being used as none of the issue is Baker. Only you. There's pages for everyone on this site to read through and see that.

And if you don't know that the WR's over the last few weeks that consist of a banged up Landry, Banged up DPJ and Higgins who was behind a WR we just cut is not a stellar core of WR's - then maybe I understand the rest of your struggles with football takes. But I'll have a stab and suggest that instead of accepting what you know to be true - you trot out this excuse to talk about Baker's 50% competition percent instead. You do realize that with poor receivers who can't get open and who drop balls ... it impacts the completion % right? Yes - Baker has played really badly and missed wide open receivers, he's played badly and missed WR's who might have been open with better throws .... but our WR's have also dropped balls and struggled all by themselves. We even had a Super Bowl Winning MVP QB break that down and show folks ... but you chose not to accept that piece of film study. Carry on.