These are the QBs that I would take over Baker for the 2022 season as of 1/9/22 (in no particular order):
Patrick Mahomes Justin Herbert Derek Carr Mac Jones Tua Tagovailoa Josh Allen Lamar Jackson Joe Burrow Ryan Tannehill Matthew Stafford Kyler Murray Russell Wilson Aaron Rodgers Kirk Cousins Jalen Hurts Dak Prescott Tom Brady Matt Ryan
it's not fun because most of them are already on their team for a few years !!! lol JK !! I like Carr the most because he has had 3 consecutive years of over 4000 yards with no run game, receivers and a lousy line..
I liked Huntley until I watched the overtime .
Rodgers...that's a dream !..... somewhere over the rainbow way up high And the dream that you dare to Why, oh why can't I? I
Could you be talked into Baker if he was the Baker who won on that Thursday night to break a very long losing streak ?
Rest assured there is not a single QB on your list that would trade their current situation to come to the Browns, so I guess you are stuck with Baker.
What about the other 14 guys on offense? What about that Jarvis Landry was a Non Factoer for an entire season What about that in spite of great play the team never properly used, (seldom properly used) David Njoku.
What about that Austin Hooper was only used 3rdly to Harrison Bryant, when Hooper is supposedly the better more experienced veteran player.
What about the fact they scarcely/sparesly played Demetric Felton on any offenseive snaps What about the fact they tried to rely too much on DPJ, but only every now and then, when most times they'd totally avoid going to him for large stretches of multiple games.
What about the over a ton, dozen? times the Browns got into the red zone and couldn't get points because the coach was too eager to go for it on 4th downs. What about the Quarterback, who is responsible to fix the freaking Quarterback, when he doesn't know how to make thoughtful decisions in the pocket, when he gets too scared or gun shy in the pocket, when he abandons the pocket too soon, and does it from Game 1 on, and nobody steps in for the entire 17 games of the season, to coach him to make better decisions.
What about, teams that make the playoffs, have offenses, that score Points!!
Could you be talked into signing Baker if he were coming from another team, If The Browns, Had ANY KIND OF A COACH that could fix what is wrong with Baker, his mechanics, his posture at the point of release,
Baker would be the best guy to bring in from outside, IF the Browns had any kind of a coach that wasn't hindering everybody.
I believe the best option at QB next year is to get a reliable back up. Baker got hurt week 2 and if the team had a more reliable back up they should have shut him down. Off season priority should be to get Baker fixed and healthy and get a reliable back up.
if we end up rolling with mayfield, then i hope this board can at least start being honest.
he will be completely healthy to start the season. he will once again have a top O line, top rushing attack, and decent weapons to throw to.
in his 5th year, we should not be having arguments about his crap footwork.
in his 5th year, we should not be having arguments about his inability to read a defense.
in his 5th year, we should not be having arguments as to wide he wont throw to open guys and instead throw into tight/double coverage.
yall made enough excuses for him this season to roll over to the NEXT qb who comes here. i dont wanna hear none of that next season.
because right now, he's not better than allen, lamar, herbert, carr, watson, burrow, mahomes, or an old ass big ben. i bet people can make a decent argument he isn't better than Tannehill or Bridgewater.
and thats just the AFC QB's.
this will be his 5th year, guys. 2-14 with the game on the line. at what point is baker gonna rise and shine?
After last season I can’t believe that we’re in this spot. I was pretty confident that Baker was our guy a year ago. I realized he wasn’t Uber talented and had flaws, but it seemed like he was ascending and growing with the offense enough to make us good.
Now, I feel the opposite. I think he holds the roster back to the point where we have to make tough decisions.
Did his injury affect things? Sure. But, to what point? That’s the question our FO must answer.
His passcatchers are a bit of a ? right now, but overall I agree with you.
But I think we're kinda beyond the 'why' at this point, right? The time to haggle over footwork and reading the D and diagnosing that is kinda past (unfortunately). It's his 5th year, and there are no conversations going (as far as we know) about the paper that's going to keep him here long term. As you guys said, it's put up or shut up time.
If his footwork still sucks and if he still can't read a D, he's probably not going to have a very good 5th season... and we know what that means for him being the Browns QB1. The decision isn't just a thumbs up/thumbs down on next season... it'll be more nuanced than that... but more to your point, Baker has sorta run out of time to address the nagging issues that have popped up during his career.
Lets see there was draught and crop failure along with blight brought on by Locust. So our corn crop was decimated. Lets all get together and Judge what crop we should pursue in the near future cause obviously we don't want CORN again.
So what are you asking Brown's fans to judge the prowess of their QB after spending most of the season playing in a shoulder harness and continuing to amass injuries without complaining and several other variables that made this season a terrible season for Baker to be successful. Now is not the time to sit down and judge our QB with others. The only thing that should be judged is should we have had Baker shut down due to injury. But to take a players worst season due to many circumstances the worst being playing injured and judge him against other QBs. A sly move by one who dislikes a QB and wishes to get as many Dawgs in his corner as possible. Sorry I ain't falling for it. I will judge him with variables being as positive as possible and then compare.
I want to see a healthy Baker Mayfield with NFL caliber WRs. Berry has his work cut out for him. And get a play caller who understands the value of Chubb and Hunt on the field at the same time. And how to help backup OL guys when they are asked to help out. Stefanski is infuriating. Geezus.
Does anyone have any knowledge as to Baker's ability to start throwing, given that it's his left shoulder that's being cut on? I hear 4-6 months recovery time, but that's for the affected shoulder.
Does anyone have any knowledge as to Baker's ability to start throwing, given that it's his left shoulder that's being cut on? I hear 4-6 months recovery time, but that's for the affected shoulder.
All I read is that he’ll be fully recovered for OTAs
Does anyone have any knowledge as to Baker's ability to start throwing, given that it's his left shoulder that's being cut on? I hear 4-6 months recovery time, but that's for the affected shoulder.
When you throw, your opposite arm also comes up, it's a counter-balance. When you torque your body, that shoulder is part of that, even if it isn't doing the work directly. Just try throwing a ball while keeping your opposite arm at your side. You can't do it.
So, I can imagine him being able to do light work - things that won't pose a risk to tearing anything that is healing - but REALLY throwing and taking on a heavy workload is probably that full 3-4 month window.
After last season I can’t believe that we’re in this spot. I was pretty confident that Baker was our guy a year ago. I realized he wasn’t Uber talented and had flaws, but it seemed like he was ascending and growing with the offense enough to make us good.
Now, I feel the opposite. I think he holds the roster back to the point where we have to make tough decisions.
Did his injury affect things? Sure. But, to what point? That’s the question our FO must answer.
When our FO gave Baker his 5th year option they believed in him enough to let him continue another two seasons. Then after two games when he got injured they were still confident enough to let him play the rest of the season. So when week 3 started we had a injured QB leading our troups, later in the season we had covid and injuries on our Oline not to mention piss poor contributions from our WR and TE. All these factors all together should give anyone with common sense a good indication that it's almost impossible to properly evaluate any player on these circumstances, not to mention a injuried QB.
So with that in mind do we all without one second of hesitation discussing our failed season and trying to put the majority of blame only on one individual? If we're going to give Stefanski a free pass then it's only logical to do the same with a injured QB. If Andrew Berry is totally blameless then this logic should apply for the rest of the staff and players too.
Baker and his wife has used social media in a bad way. That's immature and totally unnecessary. His decision making has sometimes been poor but i can't find another QB being so heavily criticized both nationally and locally as Baker Mayfield. Nobody passes such a storm without implications. Hopefully Baker and his team is smart enough to work on his public communication skills, that's needed. Next thing he should do is working realy hard with his mechanics and foot work, that's also heavily needed if he in the future wants to become a franchaise QB.
Until a final decsion is taken regarding his future then the FO should publicly be 100% behind him. Not the lame backing we sees today. Andrew Berry's strategy to hang him out to dry is counter productive and makes the Browns organisation to look bad. Not only Baker makes mistakes...
Does anyone have any knowledge as to Baker's ability to start throwing, given that it's his left shoulder that's being cut on? I hear 4-6 months recovery time, but that's for the affected shoulder.
All I read is that he’ll be fully recovered for OTAs
To Trooper's point, that doesn't really do much for him as far as trying to fix the things he needs to fix heading into a VERY critical season.
Does anyone have any knowledge as to Baker's ability to start throwing, given that it's his left shoulder that's being cut on? I hear 4-6 months recovery time, but that's for the affected shoulder.
All I read is that he’ll be fully recovered for OTAs
To Trooper's point, that doesn't really do much for him as far as trying to fix the things he needs to fix heading into a VERY critical season.
Yeah, a good shoulder won’t fix his inability to read a defense and handle pressure like he has to. He’s regressed in those areas it seems
Assuming Baker is the QB next year - and I think and want him to be - then he has to play well. End of story. It actually won't matter what the coaching is like, or the team or if he's injured. He's reached the point (gone beyond it in the eyes of some) where he simply has to produce like he did at the end of last year - and keep producing that way. Period.
As for how good the team will be - I'd say it's way too early to say it's going to be great/good.
RB's are elite. Period. Even without one of Johnson/Hunt - we are 100% set.
TE's - there is a lot of difference of opinion here. I think they are Meh. Nothing more than average. I think the best thing you can say is that there isn't a lot of drop off from #1 to #3. Not bad - but no where near great.
WR - assuming Landry comes back, he is very good at what he does. The rest is a giant question mark. DPJ regressed. Higgins Regressed. Schwartz was flat out bad.
OL is in flux. Both OG's are studs. Tretter may not be back - I hope he is. Conklin's injury is tough to come back from and not long ago was a career ender. Will regressed this year and *hopefully* it was mostly injury related. But we don't know.
But as I said - I don't think it matters. Baker has to shine regardless of the parts around him. I think he will.
Since the thread title is "Off-Season Baker Mayfield" and not "Who would you replace Baker Mayfield with", I'll actually address the thread title.
We have seen both good Baker and bad Baker. There have been questions about his footwork and the inability to find open WR's. People are correct that we don't have a good WR core but when they are getting open and your QB can't find those open WR's it runs deeper than them not being premiere WR's. A WR's job is to get open and they are doing that job regardless of people trying to blame them. Much like everyone else however I would like to see an upgrade at the WR position.
The question in my mind is how much of this has to do with Baker's injury? How much does that injury impact his footwork and thought process? We all have our opinions about that but do any of us really know the actual answer? I'm certainly not going to claim that I do.
Other than MKC every reliable source says we're rolling with Baker again next year and if I had the power to make that decision, my decision would be to role with him too. I want to see what a healthy Baker can bring to the table in 2022. You see, the dots are connected and I don't see a lot of people wanting to do that. The fact that Baker couldn't do many of the things he normally can also limits the playbook and the game plan. You can't run your normal playbook and game plan with an injury riddled QB. As such it made both the QB and the HC look and perform well below what they both would under normal circumstances.
Yet the fan base in general wants to point the finger mainly at one or the other. That's not how any of this works. With a healthy Baker and the entire playbook and game plan available, this combination of HC and QB took us to an 11-5 season just last year. That was in the first year in this system.
What I want to see is a healthy Baker working with the same HC that took us to an 11 win season last year. I want to see what they both bring to the table with a healthy Baker and a full playbook. Trying to place all of the blame on any one thing is silly IMO. The WR's were open. Baker was injured in a way that impacted his passing and God knows how much more. The HC was working on the fly trying to game plan around Baker's injury which limited the plays he could call and how much of the playbook he could use. And our opponents knew it.
There's plenty of blame to go around if that's what one is trying to do. And I'm still not totally convinced that Baker's injury caused him not to be able to see open WR's. But still I have no way of knowing for sure.
I want off season Baker to get well and be totally healthy coming into training camp next year. I want to see what that same combination of QB and HC that led us to an 11 win season last year when Baker was healthy can do.
At this juncture I think playing the "insert QB's name here" game is fools gold.
Let's all not forget please that from November 2014 through late October 2018 we literally went 6-55-1.
We were 2-20-1 against the division during that stretch.
Since Baker has come in we've had at least 6-wins each season.
We've made the playoffs and have a win.
And we haven't been a division doormat as we're 13-12 against them since he took over (including the playoff win).
16 of Baker's 30 losses have been by a touchdown or less, so the team has been competitive with him under center.
I know he hasn't always passed the eye test, and he's had some consistency issues, but I think he's earned one more season to try and make things right.
Let's not forget all the long, painful seasons we had to endure before he was drafted.
IMO we need to upgrade the WR room, and if possible add some speed at TE. (Evan Engram or OJ Howard would be great).
Most importantly we need Baker, Hunt and the entire OL to come back healthy next season.
(We also need to prioritize signing a good backup tackle in free agency).
Perhaps Baker hasn't lived up to #1 overall status, but he's done a heck of a lot for this team since being drafted.
Now that I've had some time to cool off from how the season ended, I think we need to bring him back and ride out 2022 with him and see how things go.
He's shown us flashes of being good, he just has to find the consistency, and I'd hate to give up on him too soon and have him go find it somewhere else.
I don't think that really matters if this FO gets to the point they feel we're buried in mediocrity. At that point they would have to decide to settle for mediocrity or do everything in their power to strive for greatness. Playing .500 ball year in and year out will not keep them their jobs. I don't think we are there yet. At least I hope not.
Just because things used to be horrible doesn’t mean you have to settle for okay.
It's the mindset of an abusive relationship. "Well, at least my partner doesn't hit me anymore."
Also, a lot of people think "eh, just ride it with Baker for 2022 and see what happens. As though Berry and Stefanski have the luxury and leeway to make such a casual decision. If Berry and Stefanski decide to just roll with Baker and this thing blows up in their face, are the chances better that Haslam says, "eh, no big deal, it's just another wasted season when we're built to win now" or that he goes in with a baseball bat and cleans house? I think the latter.
Are Berry and Stefanski willing to take those chances with a QB that's still fighting with the media like a child? Was pouting and refused to meet with the media after a WIN? Has proven over 4 years to be anything but consistent? Calling out his HC's play calling? You have no idea what QB is going to show up on Sunday....good Baker or bad Baker. You don't pay QBs like that, you move on from them or waste time being indecisive.
Baker was one of the worst QBs in the league. There was nothing good about him.
He was also one of the most injured QBs in the league.
No one has been able to convince me that his injuries prevents him from seeing open receivers.
They might have prevented him from being able to throw in certain directions/body angles. Also, if his leg injuries impaired his footwork, as appears to be the case. (no "up on his toes", for example) it could also impair his ability to throw over the DL. (which we saw)
It does appear that he regressed, but what percentage was injuries is yet to be seen. However, to pretend that the injuries had no impact seems rather foolish to me.
No, it doesn't prevent him from seeing his receivers, but the injuries may make him hesitate throwing because he's not sure he can get the ball there. The injuries most likely undermined Bakers confidence.
Baker was one of the worst QBs in the league. There was nothing good about him.
He was also one of the most injured QBs in the league.
No one has been able to convince me that his injuries prevents him from seeing open receivers.
They might have prevented him from being able to throw in certain directions/body angles. Also, if his leg injuries impaired his footwork, as appears to be the case. (no "up on his toes", for example) it could also impair his ability to throw over the DL. (which we saw)
It does appear that he regressed, but what percentage was injuries is yet to be seen. However, to pretend that the injuries had no impact seems rather foolish to me.
The injuries definitely hindered Baker. There is no doubt about that. I don’t think they made him miss wide open receivers the entire season.
No, it doesn't prevent him from seeing his receivers, but the injuries may make him hesitate throwing because he's not sure he can get the ball there. The injuries most likely undermined Bakers confidence.
If your QB’s confidence is undermined because he is injured then that is a pretty big red flag. So if he gets injured again we have to worry about him not throwing to wide open receivers?
No, it doesn't prevent him from seeing his receivers, but the injuries may make him hesitate throwing because he's not sure he can get the ball there. The injuries most likely undermined Bakers confidence.
If your QB’s confidence is undermined because he is injured then that is a pretty big red flag. So if he gets injured again we have to worry about him not throwing to wide open receivers?
I think the point is he probably shouldn't have been playing. It took two horrible outings vs GB and Pitt for Stefanski to believe that.
No, it doesn't prevent him from seeing his receivers, but the injuries may make him hesitate throwing because he's not sure he can get the ball there. The injuries most likely undermined Bakers confidence.
If your QB’s confidence is undermined because he is injured then that is a pretty big red flag. So if he gets injured again we have to worry about him not throwing to wide open receivers?
I think the point is he probably shouldn't have been playing. It took two horrible outings vs GB and Pitt for Stefanski to believe that.
Again, there was never a situation where Baker wasn’t starting when both he and the medical staff said he was good to go. That’s not how the NFL works. The one week he was too injured he didn’t play.
Also, how does being injured disable him from throwing to wide open receivers?
Furthermore, Baker told Aikman before that Green Bay that it was the healthiest he’d been all season.
No, it doesn't prevent him from seeing his receivers, but the injuries may make him hesitate throwing because he's not sure he can get the ball there. The injuries most likely undermined Bakers confidence.
If your QB’s confidence is undermined because he is injured then that is a pretty big red flag. So if he gets injured again we have to worry about him not throwing to wide open receivers?
I think the point is he probably shouldn't have been playing. It took two horrible outings vs GB and Pitt for Stefanski to believe that.
Here's what Berry said about Baker on Dec. 1st.
"Baker is our quarterback. He is healthy enough to win games for us. He has won games for us in the past couple of weeks. If he is ready to go, he is going to be our starter,"
"I know what he expects of himself and what we expect of him whenever he’s on the field to perform at a capable level, a winning level, and we expect him to play his best stretch of the year here after the bye.”
Players want to play. I fully expect Mayfield to want to play, regardless of his injuries, but its the head coach's job to be the grown-up in the room and sit him when its clear he can't complete simple throws that we all know he could complete in his sleep last year. People act like Baker playing was solely his decision, as if he could overrule the HC. THAT is not how the NFL works.
As far as being able to throw to wide open receivers, anybody who ever played baseball or threw a football knows how important the lead arm is in terms of balance, leverage, and hitting your target with a throw. I believe Mayfield knew this and his confidence was affected negatively.
Once more, if your QB’s confidence is shaken to the point that he will not throw the ball to wide open receivers then is that a person you want to be your QB?
Let’s paint a picture. Baker says he’s healthy enough to play. The medical staff says he’s good enough to play. He practices at least partially during the week. He looks good in practice. Stefanski sits Baker. How well do you think that would go over?
Once more, if your QB’s confidence is shaken to the point that he will not throw the ball to wide open receivers then is that a person you want to be your QB?
No, but I'd also be smart enough to realize that the shaken confidence is symptomatic of a physical problem and therefore temporary. There's no reason to believe that confidence won't return when his shoulder is healed. Its not like we don't already know those are throws he has made successfully, and that he will again when his shoulder, heel bruise, knee strain, groin pull are healed.
By all accounts he looked great in practice. When you combine that with the medical staff clearing him it would be a hard decision not to start him. I don't believe for a second that the decision to start him was based only on him being cleared by the medical staff. If you suck in practice combined with an injury the HC isn't going to start you.
Now we really don't disagree on some level. I'm not sure how the injury impacted him not seeing wide open WR's. I think our WR's take a lot of heat considering the fact their job is to get open and they did their job. That's not saying we don't need an upgrade at the position I just think they have taken too much of the blame for the fact he didn't find them when they actually were open.
Actually I felt exactly like you for some time as to not connecting the injury with the fact it seemed he was having a hard time reading the field. I'm still not sure if I connect the two. I do however think the term "undermined his confidence" is a little too general of a statement. In practice you are not under pressure. You have the time to process everything in your own time. That's not true during a game. Things are happening quicker and your instinct must kick in. That can change the mental aspect and your processing ability.
Now I'm not trying to say that's what's happening. I have no idea if it is or not. What I do know is that is enough for me to consider and question the possibility that the injury may have impacted his thought process in game situations.
From everything we've heard and seen, including Berry's statement above posted by Milk, Baker looked great in practice. Something triggered a difference in game situations. I can't say for sure what that was. And I really don't think anyone else can either.
(Also, there is evidence from 2020 that he didn’t make those throws as often as we’d like.)
More concerning will be if the season starts out with a few losses the pressure will continue to mount and mount. We've see how he performs when the pressure is ratcheted up and everything is on line.
2022 has the potential to be a landfill fire if everything is not perfect and the Browns run it back with Baker. Tough decisions ahead for Berry.
Here is what Berry said on Baker's injuries....
"...the reality of it is that he’s worked through injuries, no different than other players on our roster."
(Also, there is evidence from 2020 that he didn’t make those throws as often as we’d like.)
Curious, who do you want to replace him with, that will be available and willing to come to Cleveland?
I have no idea who would be willing to play in Cleveland but Kirk Cousins would be a massive upgrade over the QB we saw in 2021.
Would he be a massive upgrade to the healthy Baker we saw in 2020?
Yes. We never know which Baker is going to show up. Kirk Cousins is very consistent.
DVOA rankings:
2018 Mayfield: 12th 2018 Cousins: 13th
2019 Mayfield: 25th 2019 Cousins: 7th
2020 Mayfield: 16th 2020 Cousins: 9th
2021 Mayfield: 23rd 2021 Cousins: 7th
So comparing Kirk Cousins in years 7-10 of his career with Baker's years 1-4 is an equal comparison? And how many different coaches did Cousins have in those 4 years? How many serious injuries?
If you want to go get Cousins, great, then we can consistently be above average... Baker still has the much higher ceiling when healthy.
He was a top 10 QB in the NFL - and he played in 3 horrendous bad weather games .... AND they changed his footwork and mechanics at the beginning of the year and he sucked donkey balls for the first few weeks? And he was still a top 10 QB? I am sue that won't sit well with some.
If you want to go get Cousins, great, then we can consistently be above average... Baker still has the much higher ceiling when healthy.
Going on year 5 and the lights will suddenly come on! Fingers crossed. That seems like the type of approach Berry will take.
I'd argue that Baker's ceiling is what Kirk Cousins does ever year.
In 2020 Baker threw for less than 200 yards in 7 out of 16 regular season games.
From a Dec. 9th article on Kirk Cousins:
Kirk Cousins leads the league in dissonance. His numbers are spectacular, his record is mediocre, and his detractors are legion. He is one of the NFL’s highest-paid and most polarizing players. Statistics declare Cousins an elite quarterback, worth every penny the Minnesota Vikings have given him. The confidence he inspires and record he produces suggest Cousins’s full box scores are empty calories.
This season, Cousins has more yards than Josh Allen, more touchdowns than Dak Prescott, better yards per attempt than Tom Brady and fewer interceptions than Aaron Rodgers. He has thrown the same number of touchdowns (25) as Patrick Mahomes with seven fewer interceptions (three). It should be easy to celebrate a player with those credentials. It is also easy to mock a quarterback who lined up behind the right guard instead of the center on one of his season’s most important plays.
Cousins has no statistical deficiencies and almost no traditional category in which he is not elite. He ranks fifth in completion percentage, sixth in yards, tied for fifth in touchdown passes and second in quarterback rating. He does not undermine his production with negative plays — Cousins has the lowest interception percentage in the NFL and is third lowest in sack percentage.
If there are any troubling indicators hidden in the dark beneath basic statistics, they are too concealed for advanced metrics to illuminate them. Analytics site Pro Football Focus grades Cousins as the third-best quarterback in the NFL this season, behind Brady and Kyler Murray. Football Outsiders’ quarterback DVOA (defense-adjusted value over average) metric ranks Cousins second. The Vikings rank fourth in the league in expected points added on quarterback dropbacks.
Even the stats that should reveal his clutch shortcomings indicate the opposite. He has executed game-winning drives in three of Minnesota’s five victories; only four quarterbacks have more. Cousins’s passer rating in the fourth quarter of one-score games is 112.9, second in the NFL behind Rodgers. And yet Cousins is viewed with skepticism — as a source of that 5-7 record rather than a victim.
Ha,,, Baker had to miss three games, Case Keenum started two and won both....What else to you want a back up to do? Mullins started one and damn near pulled it off....
I guess I understand the whole Lack of Love for Mayfield,,, this a "what have you done for me lately" league.
When I look at Mayfield, I see a guy that fought like hell. I saw a guy that got injured.. I saw a guy get Covid... I saw a guy that endured a bunch of dropped passes...
I hope he gets another year. I am just not so sure it will happen.
If it doesn't, I think it will be more on Bakers end over the team's. Bakers edge also might hold a bit of a grudge against the coaches, and maybe even the fans. I also think his wife has a lot of influence.
I am just not sure the Mayfield's want to stay in Cleveland. Hopefully I am wrong.
Cfrs15, your over simplified hatred of Baker is a bore. Do you think you are accomplishing something saying the same thing over and over. And guess what he is still going to be the qb next year. With him healthy and better wr’s we’ll be in the playoffs too.
Cfrs15, your over simplified hatred of Baker is a bore. Do you think you are accomplishing something saying the same thing over and over. And guess what he is still going to be the qb next year. With him healthy and better wr’s we’ll be in the playoffs too.
I actually like the guy. I like his personality, sense of humor, toughness, etc. I just think he’s a bad QB at this point.
I hope he gets another year. I am just not so sure it will happen.
If it doesn't, I think it will be more on Bakers end over the team's. Bakers edge also might hold a bit of a grudge against the coaches, and maybe even the fans. I also think his wife has a lot of influence.
I am just not sure the Mayfield's want to stay in Cleveland. Hopefully I am wrong.
I see it this way:
CLE and BM6 are married for the next year, guaranteed. Both need each other. Each is the best short-term option for the other. And both camps know this. That's why we read short articles about BM6's exit chat ending on a positive note (it's also why I didn't bother with the ever-predictable MKC end-of-year soap opera distraction when it popped up in the threads...).
Ain't no hate in the building, because each needs each other equally for this thing to work. It's business for CLE, and it's business for BM6, as well.
BM6 gets his year to prove it. Earned, in my opinion. CLE gets the same- and another year to explore options (which any responsible FO would/should be doing all the time, anyway).
Both camps stand to profit if next year looks more like Playoff Browns '20. Both camps stand to lose big if either side bails now.
Everything else we dolts have been posting about is bs compared to this reality. That's why I haven't really been "chatting it up" with you guys about this lately.
___________
REALITY BREAK/MANIFESTO MOMENT
This thing (NFL) is an entertainment entity that is only one or two steps removed from WWE. It's like DisneyCorp, Universal Studios, LucasFilms, and even freakkin Carnival Cruises. They are all megalithic corporate entities that deliver a processed entertainment product for mass consumption. And that's what perennially-disappointed Browns fans have failed to understand ever since The Return. The NFL doesn't hate the Browns. It has never hated the Browns.
The Browns haven't given the NFL enough reason to love them...and it's not for lack of opportunity. Hear me out:
The NFL loves nothing more than to script narratives that write themselves for the history books. PIT#7 is this year's project, if they can swing it. It's a long shot, but hey- it's the playoffs- anything can happen... That said, CLE had their chances to knock him off his perch, and the NFL was always there to pick up the story- no matter how it played out.
After the 2002 playoff loss, Browns got plenty of honey. After 2007 (a 10-6 record that needed playoff help), Browns got plenty of hype. After 2021, Browns are being slurrrped as deep-playoff shoe-ins.
At each point, the NFL has been there to help CLE write its story for its fans. When CLE has failed to capitalize on its opportunities, the NFL moved on to help other teams write stories for their fans.
CLE has had their chances to be the next big "Corporate Feel-Good Storyline Project," but they have to take that next step. When they do, they'll get coverage and storylines and coach closeups and yes- I'll say it- even ref's calls in big games for as long as they can keep the feels going. Some teams go one & done. Some create dynasties.
Browns fans have had it wrong all along. Refs/League aren't against the Browns. They've just never been given a reason to be for them yet. String 2-3 seasons together like last year, and I guaran-damn-tee you: CLE would be headed to a storyline resembling PIT or NE or GB. It's what they do. It's their brand: "We'll gin up the hype, but it's your responsibility to bring quality product."
This team is still on the cusp of being The Next Big Sexy Thing, even after this disappointing season. NFL Network did everything they could to set us up at the end of last year. Before injuries. And CoVid. And more injuries. and... you get it.
Folks are close to getting what they've wanted. Team just needs to take that next step. This year was disappointing, but not devastating- and that's an important part of building.
Jim Brown is still alive. The NFL has every reason to help write a story like that, but CLE has to give them that opportunity.
You guys think I'm crazy. I'm not wrong here. They will take the easy way to a great story every time. It's who they are. It's what they do.
[cue up 'vintage NFL films theme music' with John Facenda voiceovers]
1st, Cousins will be 34 before the start of next season compared to Baker at 27. 2nd, Kirk Cousins contract is active in 2022 and he presents Minnesota with a 45-million cap hit next season and a 35-million base salary. His contract is fully guaranteed so getting Cousins in a trade first gets you the 2022 cost and second it gets you involved in the new contract negotiations with him and his agent.
In four seasons with Cousins, the Vikings have made the playoffs just once. He has a 33-29-1 record with one playoff appearance as a Minnesota starter. “Certainly a lot of close losses,” Cousins said of Minnesota going 8-9 in 2021. Baker Mayfield has had a record of 29-28 as a starter in his career with 1 playoff appearance. Baker had 6 games decide by 6-points or less in 2021, aren't those considered close? Mayfield has had 4 less wins and 1 less loss, 3 head coaches compared to 1, Baker as a rookie inherited a team that was 1-31 the previous 2 years while Cousins came to Minnesota after the team went 13-3 in 2017-2018 and 8-8 in 2016-2017 for a 2-year total of 21-11. Cousins had 6-years of NFL experience before coming to Minnesota and by comparison - Baker had zero.
It's ridiculous to compare a 10-year veteran's performance over the last 4 years to a rookie when the vet has had a more stable coaching staff and FO, better players starting and could be argued throughout the 4-years, and one having a year of injuries and the other not.
Jump forward to 2022, getting that vet for the Browns will cost 35 million plus in 2022 with a contract negotiation that will surely be played out in the press (history) and require a total restructure of the team cap with not much upside from the player (you get what you get), compared to a player with bigger upside, lower costs, who's just beginning his career after inheriting a 1-31 dumpster fire, 3 head coaches, and a current head coach that won't build the offense to the QB's skill set while being marred in the bottom 30% of the league in passing attempts.
I will say it again, there isn't a current top 10 QB that will ever consider coming to play for a team that is going to cut his passing attempts by 200 per season. That would also include the WR/TE positions. Hell man, we already have a TE that had 2 consecutive years of over 100 targets and 80 plus receptions that the Browns now attempt to throw to less than 50 times per season - how's that worked out? You don't think other players have seen what the Browns have done with Hooper, OBJ, Landry, and Baker for that fact in the passing game the last 2-years? Right now, Baker is a shell of himself compared to the way he played at Oklahoma due to the scheme & game management and Cousins has already had a big dose of Stefanski. Not going to happen people - it would be one of the stupidest moves by the Browns ever!
I've already said my piece about Cousins, but I should've led with the fact that I don't follow the Vikings or him. He could be the best QB in the league (what some are alleging with his own stats), but I only know him via his record. And that's really what my issue with him boils down to. If the Vikings really are interested in parting with him (could make sense given the astronomical amount they're paying him to NOT go to the playoffs), he's basically the same guy he was when Minny first rolled the dice on him. A guy that does a lot of good things, but you're not really sure what his impact is going to be.
If KS wants him, then all I can say is that I trust KS.
If KS wants him, then all I can say is that I trust KS.
No way. That would be the ultimate signal that we're going down the wrong path. If KS wants to bring in Cousins over Baker, then we now know that KS either should have no say in our offense at all, or he should be gone.
If KS wants him, then all I can say is that I trust KS.
No way. That would be the ultimate signal that we're going down the wrong path. If KS wants to bring in Cousins over Baker, then we now know that KS either should have no say in our offense at all, or he should be gone.
I think I can see the logic with this - the Vikings have had very good teams and very good talent. For all the talk about Baker's talented cast - Stefanski and the Vikings had D Cook at RB who is not far off being as good as Chubb, Theilen and Diggs who are uber talented, and above average TE's. . . They underperformed with much better than we've had this or last year.
Honestly I don't think - based on this year with his injuries - anyone disagrees. We can all see the stats.
That isn't what the conversation is. It's cute for you to keep repeating "facts" - but we aren't actually discussing history, and performance while impaired. Not only does it come across as baiting and goading to keep parroting "facts" based on an injured season it is as about as useful as me continuing to post 'factually' that Baker was a top 5 QB in the NFL based on PFF's grades over the last 9 games of last season and his 2 healthy games this season.
Cfrs15, your over simplified hatred of Baker is a bore. Do you think you are accomplishing something saying the same thing over and over. And guess what he is still going to be the qb next year. With him healthy and better wr’s we’ll be in the playoffs too.
I actually like the guy. I like his personality, sense of humor, toughness, etc. I just think he’s a bad QB at this point.
He's not a bad QB. He's a pretty damn good QB that has played poorly for stretches this year. And there IS a distinction there. That's the crux of *everyone's* posts that is "blinded" by supporting him. It's trying to understand WHY is he playing poorly, because we all KNOW he isn't as bad as he has played at times this season. There is plenty to lay on him, but there is plenty to lay elsewhere, too, that impacts his ability to do his part. THAT is the distinction folks have been trying to make when countering the simplistic "Baker Sucks" mantras being repeated on here.
Baker Mayfield has not once finished above league average in completion percentage. And not a single season above 64%.
Completion percentage ranking by season for Baker:
2018: 17th 2019: 31st 2020: 18th 2021: 24th
My only point has been looking at this from Berry and Stefanski's perspective. Do they really want to risk their jobs hitching their wagon to Baker for another season knowing the owner is trigger happy when it comes to firing people? Does Berry not owe it to the organization and the rest of the locker room to try and upgrade the position if the opportunity presents itself on a team that is built to win now? He has a huge decision to make.
Baker's biggest problem is that he has been wildly inconsistent.
The lights coming on and Baker being the guy would be the absolute best case scenario for the team, the fans and everyone involved. I'm just not sure Berry and Stefanski are willing to put it on the line to hope that scenario plays out. Time will tell.
My thoughts are:
Baker back as starting QB next year: 35% New QB starting next season: 65%
I'll start off with saying that I doubt anybody but Mayfield is our starter at the beginning of next season. He clearly didn't play well enough to earn an extension, but his body of work is not bad enough for the FO to do anything rash.
But this conversation is all about hypotheticals.
With Mayfield, I think one of the things that could spur a huge move is simply who Mayfield is as a QB (taking out the inconsistencies and recent poor performance). Mayfield just might not be the category of QB that works best in Stefanski's offense. I could see if a QB came available that is more in-line with what he wants (precision, timing, fast-thinker with a good-enough arm).
That QB coming available will also have to look at 200 less passing attempts per year, a dysfunctional TE group being led by Hooper who's rated as the 19th rated TE in Tier 5, with Njoku and Bryant not even rated in the top 33, and a WR group with Landry currently being listed as the Browns highest rated WR in Tier 6 at #37 and Peoples-Jones at 55th in Tier 7. Those are some huge drawing cards to get a FA QB to come here.
I think it was revealed that Baker's mechanics were falling apart as this season went on. Part of that was the injuries, but the core of it was him not having those mechanics down to begin with. Overall inconsistency is also a theme with Mayfield. FWIW, if I were Stefanski I would be up for trading some of Baker's big-play ability for more consistency in hitting on easy plays that are there when a defense is focused on Chubb et al (if that QB was out there to be had).
At the end of the day I trust Berry and Stefanski to make the best decision for the team. We haven’t had leadership this wise and knowledgeable (and on the same page) basically ever. They have more information for me and if they end up bringing Baker back then I’ll have to assume they did it in the best interest of the team.
Part of that was the injuries, but the core of it was him not having those mechanics down to begin with.
something tells me you have never played sports at a higher level.
my son was a pitcher/qb in hs and pitcher in college
he constantly had to work on his mechanics and keep them in tune
when he got hurt... his mechanics suffered things like: broken elbow/avulsion fracture on this thumb/ tendonitis in glove hand/ tendonitis in his knees/ tight hips / tight hamstrings
late in games... he would start to get tired and mechanics would slip a little.
mechanics always need refinement.
throwing a ball consistently and effectively may be one of the hardest things to do in sports.
I'm keying on a single observation Kurt Warner made in his video of the first half of that Balt loss. He pointed out how Baker's first step after the snap was with the wrong foot, essentially turning a 3 step drop into a 3.5 step drop, which can throw off timing on a play that failed partially because of timing.
So at the risk of making a mountain out of a molehill, I'm trying to make a connection from his overall performance this season to known previous issues with his game (the first thing AVP did when they were hired was go heavy on footwork improvement with Baker). I also saw him throw off his back foot a LOT at the end of this season.
So comparing Kirk Cousins in years 7-10 of his career with Baker's years 1-4 is an equal comparison? And how many different coaches did Cousins have in those 4 years? How many serious injuries?
If you want to go get Cousins, great, then we can consistently be above average... Baker still has the much higher ceiling when healthy.
Don't bring the reality of the situation into it. Raw numbers without laying out the circumstances is all that matters at this point. Objectivity isn't received well.
Oober if you analyzed games by Brady and Rodgers, much less Burrow and Lamar. Do you think their mechanics would be perfect on every throw? There is a real examination bias here. What does this prove? They are not robots.
I think you're reaching here. Baker's mechanics and footwork have been pretty bad this year. The only real discussion is whether it was the injury that caused it or not. I think it did.
At the end of the day I trust Berry and Stefanski to make the best decision for the team. We haven’t had leadership this wise and knowledgeable (and on the same page) basically ever. They have more information for me and if they end up bringing Baker back then I’ll have to assume they did it in the best interest of the team.
Running an injured Baker out there week in and week out gives me pause about your so-called Berry and Stef wise and knowledgeable leadership.
We must move on from Baker. This is coming from a Baker bro.
At the end of the day I trust Berry and Stefanski to make the best decision for the team. We haven’t had leadership this wise and knowledgeable (and on the same page) basically ever. They have more information for me and if they end up bringing Baker back then I’ll have to assume they did it in the best interest of the team.
Running an injured Baker out there week in and week out gives me pause about your so-called wise and knowledgeable leadership.
We must move on from Baker. This is coming from a Baker bro.
Again, Baker said he could play. The medical staff said he could play. He was practicing. He is/was the starting QB. There is no way they were going to sit him given those circumstances. And they shouldn’t have sat him.
At the end of the day I trust Berry and Stefanski to make the best decision for the team. We haven’t had leadership this wise and knowledgeable (and on the same page) basically ever. They have more information for me and if they end up bringing Baker back then I’ll have to assume they did it in the best interest of the team.
Running an injured Baker out there week in and week out gives me pause about your so-called Berry and Stef wise and knowledgeable leadership.
We must move on from Baker. This is coming from a Baker bro.
Agreed. The medical staff may have cleared him, the player may have said he is ready to go but at the end of the day THE COACH has to be able to analyze what his EYES are telling him about the QB and his performance IN GAME. He's so damn busy with his play chart he can't pay attention to the actual game on the field. There were a NUMBER of games where I'm sure people were screaming for a change at QB IN GAME due to what we saw happening on the field. This is where Stefanski fails. Give up the play calling and be a leader for your team AS THE GAME PROGRESSES. Basically, isn't that his job? I simply don't trust this guy to be effective as a head coach AND a play caller. And given his "strategy" on offense, I would prefer that responsibility be taken away from him. JMO
It really doesn't matter. The FO is all in on Baker. And you and I both know he isn't the guy.
They're all in because they know their options are severely limited in the offseason. Baker is a cheap fix in the short term at QB. He gets next year to prove his worth. I'm willing to bet that Berry is already looking ahead to the 2023 draft class. And even then you still need a quality veteran challenger/backup to teach the next kid. My biggest concern is Stefanski calling plays. That must change.
At the end of the day I trust Berry and Stefanski to make the best decision for the team. We haven’t had leadership this wise and knowledgeable (and on the same page) basically ever. They have more information for me and if they end up bringing Baker back then I’ll have to assume they did it in the best interest of the team.
Running an injured Baker out there week in and week out gives me pause about your so-called Berry and Stef wise and knowledgeable leadership.
We must move on from Baker. This is coming from a Baker bro.
Agreed. The medical staff may have cleared him, the player may have said he is ready to go but at the end of the day THE COACH has to be able to analyze what his EYES are telling him about the QB and his performance IN GAME. He's so damn busy with his play chart he can't pay attention to the actual game on the field. There were a NUMBER of games where I'm sure people were screaming for a change at QB IN GAME due to what we saw happening on the field. This is where Stefanski fails. Give up the play calling and be a leader for your team AS THE GAME PROGRESSES. Basically, isn't that his job? I simply don't trust this guy to be effective as a head coach AND a play caller. And given his "strategy" on offense, I would prefer that responsibility be taken away from him. JMO
So you’re saying Baker should have been benched because he was playing bad?
I'm keying on a single observation Kurt Warner made in his video of the first half of that Balt loss. He pointed out how Baker's first step after the snap was with the wrong foot, essentially turning a 3 step drop into a 3.5 step drop, which can throw off timing on a play that failed partially because of timing.
So at the risk of making a mountain out of a molehill, I'm trying to make a connection from his overall performance this season to known previous issues with his game (the first thing AVP did when they were hired was go heavy on footwork improvement with Baker). I also saw him throw off his back foot a LOT at the end of this season.
I wouldn't doubt it. when you are injured, your body tries to compensate in strange ways.
When my son got soreness in his right knee, he started turning his left foot in when he landed after throwing the ball and he stopped pushing his chest forward.
small things can make a big difference.
Quite frankly, coaches don't care as much about mechanics or some of the other stuff when you are injured/hurt and you are the "guy". They just want the medical staff to keep/get you healthy enough to be on the field throwing the ball.
Oober if you analyzed games by Brady and Rodgers, much less Burrow and Lamar. Do you think their mechanics would be perfect on every throw? There is a real examination bias here. What does this prove? They are not robots.
I already acknowledged that that could be the case. I'm not an expert (also previously acknowledged). What bothered/-ing me was that we have Baker making 'Intro to Footwork 101' level footwork mistakes a year after his footwork overhaul. It was previously (as in, back when he was coming off his first and second years) established that Baker needed help with his mechanics, as it was a contributing factor to his accuracy inconsistencies.
And maybe just maybe if the Browns had a coaching staff dedicated to their areas of expertise then maybe Baker wouldn't be having these issues. The Browns have no QB Coach. They have Van Pelt but he's not dedicated solely to the QB's being the Offensive Coordinator. Mechanics are a daily thing that must be worked on and a true QB Coach would be responsible for whenever Baker slips on his mechanics. The Browns TE Coach and WR Coach have shown me the last 2-years that they are in way over their heads. There's no excuse for the bad route running and hands of stone receivers being in those groups. Stefanski needs to immediately give up the play calling and be a leader for your team and do the coaching you're supposed to do as the game progresses. If he wants to be the Offensive Coordinator, then hire Flores as Head Coach and give him the damn job he wants because he surely isn't performing as the Head Coach. Considering his predictable offense, the Browns need to hire an Offensive Coordinator who will 1) use the skill set of the players and 2) run an offense where not every single person in the stadium knowing what's going to happen. Maybe, just maybe, if Stefanski was Head Coaching instead of having his nose stuck in the play sheet he might have made an adjustment in the PIT game before his hobbled QB got blistered with 9 sacks. Stefanski has sucked at making adjustments all year - the Browns don't need another year of that crap. JMO
My only point has been looking at this from Berry and Stefanski's perspective. Do they really want to risk their jobs hitching their wagon to Baker for another season knowing the owner is trigger happy when it comes to firing people? Does Berry not owe it to the organization and the rest of the locker room to try and upgrade the position if the opportunity presents itself on a team that is built to win now? He has a huge decision to make.
Their butt is on the line either way. Nobody has thrown out an option yet that is a sure thing upgrade over Baker Mayfield....
Keeping Baker and having him not get back to a more consistent version of his 2020 self would be a risk.
Getting rid of Baker having him play elsewhere will provide a wonderful weekly comparison of Baker's stats compared to whoever our new guy is... and if the new guy isn't noticeably better, then what? We saw it this year, OBJ had a fairly lackluster performance for the Rams but he did manage to catch a few TDs and every time he did, the media took shots at the Browns.... now imagine if Baker were to go somewhere else and play a lot better than whatever his replacement is doing here? Heads would have to roll...
The safer play, if you are talking about Berry and Stefanski keeping their jobs, is to roll with Baker one more year and give him a chance to recover and prove himself. Letting him go is a much riskier option.
The medical staff, makes decisions based on whether further injury or longterm injury could occur, not based on whether the player can play at 60%, 70%, 80%, 90%, or 100% of their potential. Only the player knows that, and maybe not even the player, if he is delusional. Baker was delusional.
Ultimately the proof is in the pudding, i.e. how the player performs. How Baker performed and looked last year and the first 2 games (completed 82% of his passes first two games) changed significantly by game 3 on, and definitely after game six. It seemed he had to labor to make good throw and that got worse as the season proceeded, likely because of the harness and the snowballing of piling injuries, being under constant duress from an oline falling apart, crappy receiver play/receiver discord (i.e. OBJ). This caused him to play poorly and that snowballed into affecting his head, especially the last 5 games of the season (seeing open receivers, pulling the trigger).
I said after Arizona he needed to be benched 4-6 weeks at least. Anyone that knows Baker knows he would play with a broken arm, to both his and the teams detriment. Both Stefanski and Berry should have pulled the plug on Baker. Not doing so not only ruined the current season, but mired both Baker and the teams future in uncertainty. It was a complete organizational failure that they still won't accept.
Some of Bakers best attributes are his worst flaws if not kept in check. He had strong coaches that kept him in check at OU (stoops and Riley), that has not happened in the NFL with kitchens and stefanski. I am not worried about Baker physically going forward, much more mentally. He was becoming a head case on the field by the end of the season. Stefanski and Van pelt have their work cut out for them to get him mentally back in the right place on the field.
It has to be Joe Burrow. Ben Rothlisberger is on.his swan song Lamar Jackson didnt.finish the season Baker continues to fall short in 4th quarter And continues to turnover the ball over
Burrow did what 95% of NFL fans didnt expect and lead.the Bengals to a division title And to boot he did not have the same 5 starting olineman Each week. Burrow showed he carry this team on.his.back. He beat some good teams this year
At the end of the day I trust Berry and Stefanski to make the best decision for the team. We haven’t had leadership this wise and knowledgeable (and on the same page) basically ever. They have more information for me and if they end up bringing Baker back then I’ll have to assume they did it in the best interest of the team.
Running an injured Baker out there week in and week out gives me pause about your so-called Berry and Stef wise and knowledgeable leadership.
We must move on from Baker. This is coming from a Baker bro.
Agreed. The medical staff may have cleared him, the player may have said he is ready to go but at the end of the day THE COACH has to be able to analyze what his EYES are telling him about the QB and his performance IN GAME. He's so damn busy with his play chart he can't pay attention to the actual game on the field. There were a NUMBER of games where I'm sure people were screaming for a change at QB IN GAME due to what we saw happening on the field. This is where Stefanski fails. Give up the play calling and be a leader for your team AS THE GAME PROGRESSES. Basically, isn't that his job? I simply don't trust this guy to be effective as a head coach AND a play caller. And given his "strategy" on offense, I would prefer that responsibility be taken away from him. JMO
So you’re saying Baker should have been benched because he was playing bad?
yes... there were multiple games after the injury where it was obvious he was ineffective.... likely due to the injury.... I really like Baker and hope he comes back to 2020 form.... but he should have been benched this year and allowed to have surgery earlier than what he's getting...
The front office may be all in on Baker or may not be. We know nothing after Berry’s statement that we didn’t know before. As long as he knows there’s a chance he will be forced to start Baker, he must say he is all in. Anything less, however subtle, would be rightly received as evidence they don’t want him. So his statement really means nothing. It’s what he has to say right up until he gets a new QB (if that is what he wants to do).
The front office may be all in on Baker or may not be. We know nothing after Berry’s statement that we didn’t know before. As long as he knows there’s a chance he will be forced to start Baker, he must say he is all in. Anything less, however subtle, would be rightly received as evidence they don’t want him. So his statement really means nothing. It’s what he has to say right up until he gets a new QB (if that is what he wants to do).
So if he says he doesnt want him he doesnt want him and if he says he does want him he doesnt want him. Convenient stance, I guess.
I'll give you a third option you dont want to think about. Maybe, just maybe, he felt that Baker at x% was a better option than Case at 100%. We could argue that stats against the common opponent confirm that, but I am not sure it is totally convincing. Baker had a bad year, next year we will see what he has in the tank.
" Cue up 'vintage NFL films theme music' with John Facenda voiceovers "
The Winds of Change-1974 Cleveland Browns
Originally Posted by Clemdawg
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
I hope he gets another year. I am just not so sure it will happen.
If it doesn't, I think it will be more on Bakers end over the team's. Bakers edge also might hold a bit of a grudge against the coaches, and maybe even the fans. I also think his wife has a lot of influence.
I am just not sure the Mayfield's want to stay in Cleveland. Hopefully I am wrong.
I see it this way:
CLE and BM6 are married for the next year, guaranteed. Both need each other. Each is the best short-term option for the other. And both camps know this. That's why we read short articles about BM6's exit chat ending on a positive note (it's also why I didn't bother with the ever-predictable MKC end-of-year soap opera distraction when it popped up in the threads...).
Ain't no hate in the building, because each needs each other equally for this thing to work. It's business for CLE, and it's business for BM6, as well.
BM6 gets his year to prove it. Earned, in my opinion. CLE gets the same- and another year to explore options (which any responsible FO would/should be doing all the time, anyway).
Both camps stand to profit if next year looks more like Playoff Browns '20. Both camps stand to lose big if either side bails now.
Everything else we dolts have been posting about is bs compared to this reality. That's why I haven't really been "chatting it up" with you guys about this lately.
___________
REALITY BREAK/MANIFESTO MOMENT
This thing (NFL) is an entertainment entity that is only one or two steps removed from WWE. It's like DisneyCorp, Universal Studios, LucasFilms, and even freakkin Carnival Cruises. They are all megalithic corporate entities that deliver a processed entertainment product for mass consumption. And that's what perennially-disappointed Browns fans have failed to understand ever since The Return. The NFL doesn't hate the Browns. It has never hated the Browns.
The Browns haven't given the NFL enough reason to love them...and it's not for lack of opportunity. Hear me out:
The NFL loves nothing more than to script narratives that write themselves for the history books. PIT#7 is this year's project, if they can swing it. It's a long shot, but hey- it's the playoffs- anything can happen... That said, CLE had their chances to knock him off his perch, and the NFL was always there to pick up the story- no matter how it played out.
After the 2002 playoff loss, Browns got plenty of honey. After 2007 (a 10-6 record that needed playoff help), Browns got plenty of hype. After 2021, Browns are being slurrrped as deep-playoff shoe-ins.
At each point, the NFL has been there to help CLE write its story for its fans. When CLE has failed to capitalize on its opportunities, the NFL moved on to help other teams write stories for their fans.
CLE has had their chances to be the next big "Corporate Feel-Good Storyline Project," but they have to take that next step. When they do, they'll get coverage and storylines and coach closeups and yes- I'll say it- even ref's calls in big games for as long as they can keep the feels going. Some teams go one & done. Some create dynasties.
Browns fans have had it wrong all along. Refs/League aren't against the Browns. They've just never been given a reason to be for them yet. String 2-3 seasons together like last year, and I guaran-damn-tee you: CLE would be headed to a storyline resembling PIT or NE or GB. It's what they do. It's their brand: "We'll gin up the hype, but it's your responsibility to bring quality product."
This team is still on the cusp of being The Next Big Sexy Thing, even after this disappointing season. NFL Network did everything they could to set us up at the end of last year. Before injuries. And CoVid. And more injuries. and... you get it.
Folks are close to getting what they've wanted. Team just needs to take that next step. This year was disappointing, but not devastating- and that's an important part of building.
Jim Brown is still alive. The NFL has every reason to help write a story like that, but CLE has to give them that opportunity.
You guys think I'm crazy. I'm not wrong here. They will take the easy way to a great story every time. It's who they are. It's what they do.
[cue up 'vintage NFL films theme music' with John Facenda voiceovers]
Serious, Berry is not an idiot. Based on prior uninjured performance and at the price point bringing back Baker is an absolute non-brainer. I bet anything Baker is the QB next year.
Serious, Berry is not an idiot. Based on prior uninjured performance and at the price point bringing back Baker is an absolute non-brainer. I bet anything Baker is the QB next year.
I am less concerned about Baker being the QB and more concerned about the image we might have with potential players. The local media floating negative stories about Baker and then have 3-4 former QB's talk about how negative the media is to players isn't a good look. I get that media just wants to make money, but if Cleveland fans would quit latching on to the guy not playing so quickly maybe that tripe wouldnt sell so much.
Negativity is not the only image the Browns need to worry about. The image of not using WR's or the TE's skill set while throwing 200 less passes than the top tier teams paint's the image to stay away from Cleveland if you have aspirations of being a #1 WR or 100 receptions or a 1,000 yds receiving because it isn't going to happen in Cleveland with the scheme Stefanski is running and his suspect play calling. I'm betting the word is already out - stay away from Cleveland unless there's a change.
Joe: 70.4% comp percentage. 4,611 yards, 34 TDs, 14 ints, 108.3 rating.... Bengals won the north
Baker: 60.5% comp percentage, 3,010 yards, 17 TDs, 13 ints, 83.1 rating.... Browns finished 3rd in the north...
Joe had a significantly better year...
Yes he undoubtedly had a better year, but lets looks at the circumstances....
Burrows Wideouts:
1. Ja-mar Chase - the fifth pick in last years draft, maybe the best deep threat in football now, and the run away rookie of the year 2. Tee Higgins - the first pick of the second round last year, tremendous talent 3. Tyler Boyd - a second round pick in his sixth year, who has consistently been a near 1000 yard receiver
Burrows RB:
1. Mixon - a second round pick that is one of the best receiving RBs in the league
Burrows Oline:
Largely healthy all year
Burrows Health:
Great all year
Burrows Offense:
Run and Gun all Day
Bakers Wideouts:
1. OBJ - a disgruntled primadonna dumped by NY, who wanted to be traded from the browns before the season started, did not practice all pre-season, skipped the first couple games, played sabotage the next few and then was traded 2. Jarvis - a steady but not dominant NFL receiver in the later part of his career, who was hurt most of the year and likely disgruntled because of his buddy OBJ 3. DPJ - a sixth round pick that is on the edge of being a number 3 for most teams in the NFL, for context OBJ is the number 3 in Los Angeles, he was hurt a lot as well 4. Schwartz- a third round flyer the browns took on an track athlete that was not even a star receiver in college, would start for no one in the NFL, he was hurt a lot as well 5. Higgins - a spacey 5th rounder that is always in trouble with coaches
Bakers RB:
1. Chubb - great runner, average in the passing game 2. Hunt - phenomenal pass catcher, hurt all year
Bakers Offense:
1. conservative, run, don't throw over 10 yards
Bakers Oline:
Because of injuries a patch-work disaster all year
Bakers Health:
Torn Labrum, Cracked shoulder, foot and leg injuries
So switch the situations, how do you think the numbers change????
Negativity is not the only image the Browns need to worry about. The image of not using WR's or the TE's skill set while throwing 200 less passes than the top tier teams paint's the image to stay away from Cleveland if you have aspirations of being a #1 WR or 100 receptions or a 1,000 yds receiving because it isn't going to happen in Cleveland with the scheme Stefanski is running and his suspect play calling. I'm betting the word is already out - stay away from Cleveland unless there's a change.
And yet, less thrown passes and at the same time everyone questioning why he isn't running the ball more...
if we end up rolling with mayfield, then i hope this board can at least start being honest.
he will be completely healthy to start the season. he will once again have a top O line, top rushing attack, and decent weapons to throw to.
in his 5th year, we should not be having arguments about his crap footwork.
in his 5th year, we should not be having arguments about his inability to read a defense.
in his 5th year, we should not be having arguments as to wide he wont throw to open guys and instead throw into tight/double coverage.
yall made enough excuses for him this season to roll over to the NEXT qb who comes here. i dont wanna hear none of that next season.
because right now, he's not better than allen, lamar, herbert, carr, watson, burrow, mahomes, or an old ass big ben. i bet people can make a decent argument he isn't better than Tannehill or Bridgewater.
and thats just the AFC QB's.
this will be his 5th year, guys. 2-14 with the game on the line. at what point is baker gonna rise and shine?
That’s more than simply fair comment. I am a fan, still have faith, but If he isn’t cutting it next season, time to cut bait. I don’t want to have to look for another QB so I want him to hammer it, but if he doesn’t, we gotta look for another guy.
Where ever people stand on Baker. I don't believe it matters to the FO.
IMO he will next years starter.
However, If I were Berry. He has to plan for Baker's worse or his injury.
Keenum is not enough. If Baker plays his way out of being a starter or gets hurt.
There has to be a better option than Keenum. We have a good team. Good enough to be in the playoffs.
But we have to have better play at quarterback. That can come with a healthy Baker. But if it does not. Have a plan B.
And make that plan so that the team can go on and win no matter what happens.
You aren't saying anything most don't know, but you fail to mention the "who"?
That then brings up the next sticking point. Of all positions, you only have 2 QB's on the team. If you are expecting a seamless transfer at the QB position, how much can you pay the guy? It seems to me if you bring in a really good QB, you run the risk of having 2 unhappy qbs on the roster.
Here is the deal with baker I haven't seen discussed. We know he walked on at Oklahoma after walking on at Texas Tech., winning the starting job at both.
Why did he walk away from Texas Tech? Something made him unhappy. We know he is unhappy here, at this moment anyway. Let's say he comes back next year, lights it up, then decides he doesn't want to sign. What do we do then, keep playing him under a franchise tag? That's not the way to go about business.
My feeling is we need to offer him a 4 year deal next week and see where he stands on that. That will go a long way towards forcing his hand. We then also draft a QB early, giving us the ability to move on from baker in a couple of years if needed with a guy in the wings. If baker balls out, we have a trade chip waiting in the drafted guy.
I think Berry and crew have to play two opposing hands to prepare for any situation to come.
Lamar and Burrow are fighting for #1 in the North.
big ben is 3rd.
baker is 4th.
other than big ben, if GMs were to have a redraft of the QB's this season, everyone on this board know lamar and burrow are going before baker. to pretend otherwise is sad.
baker beating burrow head to head would matter more if we paired that with a division crown. you think burrow and the bengals care about being swept by us right now? Burrow is getting ready for a home playoff game in his 2nd season, something mayfield hasn't accomplished in his 4th. lamar has 2 division crowns already.
and lets not forget, DT. we got SWEPT by an old ass big ben this season. there's not a situation where baker can be considered anywhere near the top of our division. it only gets worse if you include the entire AFC.
as i said before, if we roll with him next season, fine. everyone gets a fresh start when the season begins, after all. but he's gonna be completely healthy next season. burrow came off an acl tear and won the division. lamar got hurt in the pocket on a freak roll up on the ankle.
and big ben is in the playoffs AGAIN.
we've been having concerns about his lack of discipline regarding mechanics well before the injury. please stop pretending otherwise. we've been having concerns about his inability to read a defense well before the injury. please stop pretending otherwise. he's been leading the league in batted passes and picks well before the injury. please stop pretending otherwise.
lamar, burrow, and big ben have been able to put the team on their backs and go win football games. baker mayfield has done that 2 times in 14 tries. a QB who only succeeds when everything around him is perfect is not an elite QB. he's a kirk cousins, teddy bridgewater, or a jared goff.
and last time i checked, those guys aren't considered the best QB's in their own divisions either.
yall see what ryan tannehill was able to do with King Henry gone half the season? thats what baker mayfield should've done with nick chubb and kareem hurt. that didn't happen.
I don't agree with that - offering him a 4 year deal next week.... I think that's premature. What level is your offer at ? Does it reflect his bad season and you low ball him? Do you offer him a deal based on peak performance - that would be risky. Somewhere in the middle and it might be lower than BM wants and higher risk than Berry is willing. I think sitting down with him and his agent - finding out what he sees/feels would be good: If we were to sign a new contract where would you see it being? Do you prefer to play well in your 5th year before signing a new contract? To elevate your play - other than being healthy, what do you see as being key areas to address. . . . We can't promise to address everything, but if we want to put the QB in the best position to succeed, get some input, have some dialogue. Keep him up to date with thoughts and offensive skill position options and targets.
Offering him his fair market value right now isn't going to help ANYTHING, particularly his ego, if that's what we're worried about. If the FO wasn't confident in their estimation of his true value after last season, they're even less so now. If Baker wasn't happy with the $$$s, then he'd be even less so now.
Baker is going to do what Baker has always done regarding his contract. Bet on himself. I just hope that he's taken further steps to realizing his shortcomings and try to address them.
So you actually think NFL agents won't comprehend why an Injured Baker threw less passes this year? Really? Or are you suggesting an injured Baker should have been throwing more?
There are two significant problems with offering Baker a contract next week and these aren't a one way street.
First, from the Browns side of things I don't think they have the confidence in Baker at this stage to do that. If they chose to pick up the fifth year option back in April rather than negotiate a long term deal with him, there has certainly been nothing that has happened since then that would instill confidence in them from that time until now. I don't believe there's any question that they feel the need to see a healthy Baker before they decide on a long term commitment.
From Bakers side of things it's obvious. NFL players are no more than a human version of stocks you buy in the stock market from strictly a money standpoint. Their values fluctuate greatly depending on the latest reports. Bakers latest report is very ugly. Bakers stock and current value has never been lower. No agent or lawyer hired by Baker would entertain the idea of entering into long term contract talks right now. If they would, he needs a new agent and lawyer. You don't start negotiations from a side of weakness.
Neither Baker nor the Browns can possibly see an advantage to current contract negotiations. The Browns don't know what they have in Baker and Baker wouldn't be smart negotiating based on what his current value is worth. It's a lose/lose proposition for both sides.
One thing is obvious. Baker believes in himself and if he didn't he would never have made it to be a #1 draft pick. Anyone in his position has to know that with a healthy season under his belt his value will certainly increase from where it is now. How much it will increase will depend on his play. But a healthy Baker is certainly much better than what we've seen this past season. He not only has to consider what that increased value may garner him from a contract with the Browns, but also the other 31 teams in the league. Because just like the rest of us, you never know how this thing will play out.
Questions for the board ... it seems like we saw a lot less of the play action-rollouts from Mayfield this year after seeing them be really successful in 2020. My question is did defenses take it away, or did we just stop using it as much? I do recall some instances when we tried it and it seemed like the defense had a DB or LB in Mayfield's grill almost immediately. If it was taken/schemed away, was there a counter-adjustment we could have tried?
Prior to getting banged up, I thought Baker looked sneaky fast out there. To your point, he'll never be mistaken for a Lamar or a Kyler with the ball tucked, but early on I noticed his offseason prep did his body a TON of good.
That's the shame of it. If Baker didn't get hurt it may have been a great season. As it was, even with all our issues, we still could have easily won another 3 or 4 games. Instead, another disappointing season.
Ok, let's talk a bit about a contract for Baker Mayfield.
For the Browns, certainly they have questions after a disappointing 2021. Now to be fair, the QB was injured in week 3 but still played. It can be argued whether he should have played or not but what cannot be argued is his attitude to play under whatever circumstance to help the team win. The team wants a tough QB yet now we want to complain because he is just that. The Browns like the good Baker but not so much the bad Baker. Is the QB we have the Baker of the last half of 2020 and the first 2 games of 2021 or the Baker we seen the majority of weeks 3-17? Baker is cheap comparatively speaking in 2022 so keeping him is a no brainer. So how do we make Mayfield successful in 2022? First, Baker has some mechanics to work on but foremost needs to get healthy. Are the Browns committed to making Baker successful? Do we have a QB Coach focused only on the QB's - NO! Do we have a good receiving group - NO! Is our team built toward what Baker does best - NO! If the 2020 Baker emerges, does that fix the offense or are there underlying issues ranging from personnel to coaching to play calling? Where's our biggest focus, offense or defense or how can it be balance while addressing both now? Finally, what's our plan going into 2022 for a good Baker or a bad Baker? What about 2023, with what will be a veteran team, do we start over with the QB or the Coach - which has the higher risk to 2023 and beyond? What is more detrimental to the team in 2022 - a show what you have done for me lately pressure on our franchise QB or win or be bounced pressure on the FO, Head Coach and his staff? Tough questions but those that must be answered and soon!
For Baker, I think some people need to see where he might be coming from. Baker was drafted by a team that had a 1-31 record the previous 2-years. As a rookie, he broke the TD record while starting only 13 games with 27 TD passes leading the team to a 6-7 record in his starts (5 more games won than the previous 2-years). Year 2, enter a new Head coach-staff-and scheme, yet expectations remain very high. Baker has a 6-10 record with 22 TD passes but his interception rate rises. This is cause for concern but Baker is playing at a level the Browns expected when drafting him but he needs to clean up some of the decision making product. Year 3 and enter another new Head Coach, staff and scheme again for Mayfield to adjust to. In 2020, there hasn't been a single QB in the NFL besides Baker that had been tasked with having 3 different Head Coaches in their first 3-years. Baker leads the Browns to a 11-5 record with their first playoff appearance in 18-years and first playoff win in 26-years. Baker still playing under his rookie deal is then not resigned to a new deal but had his 5th year option exercised giving him 18.5 million in year 5. Baker still hoping for a new deal is basically told 2021 is a prove it year. Now in 2021, there's a direct disparity between what Baker is allowed to do at QB compared to the other top QB's in the league under Stefanski's scheme. There were 22 QB's or 68.75% of the QB's had more passing attempts than Baker in 2021. To go a little further, 9 QB's had 150 or more attempts in 2021 than Mayfield did. 7 of the 9 made the playoffs with only Herbert and Lawrence failing. Only 1, Lawrence, had a losing record in 2021. 8 players had more interceptions than Baker including Burrows and Carr who some here have campaigned for as a replacement. Add to the fact that Baker played injured during weeks 3-17. Whether you want to accept that as a reason or an excuse is disputable - being injured isn't. Baker's WR group with promises of gander turned out to be one of the weakest in the NFL. The 3-TE sets crushed the explosiveness of the passing game with only 1 WR on the field and seriously damaged the promising run game by allowing defenses to play 8-9 in the box. Play calling was suspect, very predictable and game time coaching adjustments were nonexistent. With all that, Baker moved forward losing 6 games by 6 points or less playing in the run first offense. As if on cue, Baker is blamed for all the losses and zero glory for what's he does or the fact the team is finally competitive. So now Baker is being presented another show me year and if healthy will most likely be fine. But as a player, do you really want a future where the fans issue bodily threats for losses and the team doesn't support what you've done? When Baker came to Cleveland it was a cesspool of a team. 3 different times he's had to adjust and learn a new offense to the point that even now the team doesn't run a scheme that actually plays to the skill set strengths he was drafted for. Playing injured with a crappy WR group - weak ass TE's due to the sets they played - the #1 and #2 running backs missing significant time - and that's before we get to the o-line problems that had weekly isssues, yet Mayfield takes the heat. To the fans (and the team to a lesser extent) Mayfield is the problem and he needs to be replaced.
So now Baker is in another prove it year. The FO and Stefanski are on the edge also. The longer they wait to resign Baker the more pressure it's going to create for both parties. A good Baker is going to remember how the team and fans turned on him. A bad Baker will almost certainly deliver Berry and Stefanski walking papers. Some day we might see a FO and Coach that builds their team to the skill set of the QB. 2023 could be QB 32.0 since 1999 and Head Coach 13.0 without some drastic changes this off season.
After the 2020 season they chose to pick up the fifth year option rather than negotiate a long term contract with him. So I don't think his 2020 season is as good of an example as you think it might be. There's difference between having what many claim are not good WR's and WR's who get open. Our WR's were getting open. Now as for YAC and a few more drops you probably have a point. But if your QB isn't finding open WR's, what difference does it make which WR's are open be it average WR's or great WR's?
You are right about the offense not being built around our QB's strength in 2022. I mean since that QB was injured and really didn't have a strength to build around. Somebody needs to get on that. We should just rest the running game with one of the best RB' tandems in the NFL and focus on Baker. BTW. that last line was sarcasm in case you missed it.
Questions for the board ... it seems like we saw a lot less of the play action-rollouts from Mayfield this year after seeing them be really successful in 2020. My question is did defenses take it away, or did we just stop using it as much? I do recall some instances when we tried it and it seemed like the defense had a DB or LB in Mayfield's grill almost immediately. If it was taken/schemed away, was there a counter-adjustment we could have tried?
Defenses started scheming to take away the roll-outs and bootlegs. We ran the same amount of play action this year as last year (cfrs posted the info).
There was an article in The Athletic where a defense coordinator in the AFC stated the best way to defend Baker is to force him to stay in the pocket, because he can't see over the line. Just bat down his passes or he'll sail them. Teams adjusted to what the Browns did so well in the 9 game stretch last year.
Here is a great article with video explaining how defenses began taking away QB roll-outs and bootlegs.
Wow - there's a lot there. I read it and I feel like I need to read it again. It looks like Stefanski will need to counter-adjust, and/or Mayfield will need to be better from the pocket. Thanks for the link.
Aside from the immediate depression this caused, there were some important points to takeaway from the Jake Burns piece....
So, again, the question for Mayfield is how often can he get those mechanics right. He has to be insane about them. Brees was wired this way. Manning as well. Those who didn't have insane arm talent but made up for it with those repeatable mechanics (plus some other variables we will get to).
______
Tom House talked about this exact issue.
"(Losing confidence) is something that is not unusual. It happens in baseball, it happens in golf. It breaks your heart when you watch it going on because you can only do so much until they reach out. It usually takes a village to help these kids navigate the waters that they are in now."
In the past, Mayfield has declined the notion of needing a private quarterback coach or to rework his mechanics. Is Mayfield willing to reach out now given the issues we see? Is he willing to chase the help he needs this offseason to give him the hard truth about who he is as a quarterback? If he’s willing to swallow some of that ego and pride, he can resurface a quality quarterback, but the ball is in his court.
Aside from the immediate depression this caused, there were some important points to takeaway from the Jake Burns piece....
So, again, the question for Mayfield is how often can he get those mechanics right. He has to be insane about them. Brees was wired this way. Manning as well. Those who didn't have insane arm talent but made up for it with those repeatable mechanics (plus some other variables we will get to).
______
Tom House talked about this exact issue.
"(Losing confidence) is something that is not unusual. It happens in baseball, it happens in golf. It breaks your heart when you watch it going on because you can only do so much until they reach out. It usually takes a village to help these kids navigate the waters that they are in now."
In the past, Mayfield has declined the notion of needing a private quarterback coach or to rework his mechanics. Is Mayfield willing to reach out now given the issues we see? Is he willing to chase the help he needs this offseason to give him the hard truth about who he is as a quarterback? If he’s willing to swallow some of that ego and pride, he can resurface a quality quarterback, but the ball is in his court.
Milk you just reminded me of a tweet I saw a couple years ago about Brees.
So switch the situations, how do you think the numbers change????
Browns with Joe would be in the playoffs.... I still think a healthy baker would have gotten us in as well... but Joe put up a better year this year than Baker has had any time in his career....
Joe-the-annointed would be absolute trash with our pass-catching "weapons".
He either throws the ball at-or-near the LOS for YAC (which we have no one who can maximize that) or chucks it deep like another Joe we knew (Flacco) and lets the talent make the play (talent we simply do not have).
You got it - we would have won our Division with poor weapons in our Air game but a Healthy Baker and his accuracy. How soon we forget as prior to Baker's injury he led ALL NFL QBs in completion % and he was not doing it with dink and dunk throws. Also he led all NFL QBs in play action pass results. Then the injury occurred and it was like night and day. But the haters here wish to compare his INJURY play to other QBs who played healthy if not they sat out...Baker refused to sit out and as long as he could take the pain it was okay to play. He did so for us fans cause even playing injured his game would drop but he would be the best chance for the Browns to win.
I have posted on other threads guys I would consider. But it is about availability.
Trubisky is available. IMO he got a bad deal in Chicago. He was very green coming to the NFL and got shoved into starting and was far from ready. Then he got poor support from the coaching staff when he did start.
Jimmy G could be available. He is under contract for next year but could be available in trade.
There has been a good Baker and a bad Baker. That is why no deal has been made.
Why make a deal when you do not have to?
He is on a fifth year option. It is worth the risk to see how he plays when healthy in 2022.
However, Berry's job is simple. Plan to win a Super Bowl. That means explore all options to improve the team.
If he can upgrade the quarterback position; he has to consider doing that.
I don't think it is debatable that Watson is an upgrade. However, is there really a deal to be made there? Lots of things to consider. Houston wanted like 3 number ones and way more. Then there is all the legalities to deal with?
There maybe others that are options. Berry has to weigh everything.
The best case scenario is Baker comes back and delivers. Nothing would make me more happy.
I want him to be with the Browns leading us to a championship. Then sign him and put all this controversy to bed.
If their is difference of opinions in a "franchise"'QB , much like with Baker Then he isnt really a franchise QB is he?
Are the Chiefs fans divided on Mahomes...How about Rodgers....are Packer fans torn How about Burrow in Cincy, how many want him.replaced? Do the Cards fans think Kyler Murray should be replaced?
The Baker fan club overlooks the fact that he is most turnover prone QB in the league
Bone I agree with your last 2 posts. Trubisky is someone we should look at. He had some sucess in Chicago which is another place that chews up QB's like we do here. He's still young and if he gets the right coaches to work with him he could become a good QB. That's all he would have to be here; good enough. WE would have to upgrade our WR's but we know that. I like Jimmy G. even better but he's injured too much plus it would cost us too much in compensation We've see what can happen with an injured QB. We have a tough, physical division so I feel you can almost count on JG getting hurt here as much as I hate to say it. My opinion on the subject; get Baker healthy and roll with him another year and see how he does and I hope he does well because I like him and want the best for our Browns. Sign Trubisky as a backup and let him learn the O. If things don't work out with Baker you have a guy ready, hopefully, to step in that can play. JMO
To me it is about Bakers floor. It can go pretty low.
I think people spend time looking at a player ceiling...which is fine, but you can't ignore the floor.
I don't care all that much about Baker battling. Who doesn't? He still didn't play well this year. That is on him. If he says he is good to go, then I expect him good to go.
He has played 4 years, and 2 of them are less that what we should expect. After all the spin, that is how it is.
Joe-the-annointed would be absolute trash with our pass-catching "weapons".
So he can't find open WR's either?
Question - we all know PFF, they watch each player, every position, on every play and grade them to their criteria. They are used by many or all the scouting departments for teams in the NFL. So do we trust PFF and their grades on players - including Baker and including the WR.s TE's etc ..... or do we believe some online individual with a twitter account with a handful of random snapshots showing "open" WR ?
The reason I ask is because apparently it is not possible to believe in both as they contradict each other. I believe the highest rated WR on the Browns this year by PFF was DPJ. He ranked something like 63rd in the NFL. It is simply not possible that the WR's are running around open each play and then get graded so poorly by PFF.
So pick which you believe in - if it's not PFF, please be sure never to reference them in support of a player or debate in future. Imma gonna ride with PFF. I have in the past and will in the future, good, bad or indifferent as it relates to how I feel.
PFF is actually the place that rated the Browns as having the most open WR's on pass plays. It was posted on this very board. When you don't pass a lot to open WR's they aren't going to rate very high.
Then maybe you can explain why they had us rated in having the most open WR's on pass plays and then why they say the WR's are bad? I don't know why. I just know that they did.
Yeah, I mean we can see the entire field, who is open and who isn't by watching the game instead of game film. I mean TV shows us all the angles, right? Even you know better than that.
Let's see if we can actually try and tie this together. I agree that we don't have strong or great WR's. As a group I think we are weak at WR. Many teams and QB's have at least one WR that can be counted on to catch contested passes. Strong physical WR's that are certainly beyond anything we have on our roster. So it seems we actually agree to that extent. But that's an entirely different animal than having WR's that are open that the QB can't find and identify. Those are two different things.
The fact Baker doesn't have top WR's isn't Bakers fault. The fact he seems to have a lot of trouble going through his progressions to find so many open WR's rests with Baker.
For me at least not everything is Baker's fault. But by any measure there are certainly things that are. This isn't an all or nothing proposition.
Based on what I know, Baker not playing well does not influence the PFF WR grades significantly - just like a ball that Baker throws that should have been an interception, but wasn't intercepted because the DB dropped an easy catch would be graded negatively by PFF. If that ball by Baker that should have been intercepted but gets tipped and the WR makes a great play to catch the tip and score a TD - Baker gets graded for a interception worthy throw and the WR gets graded positively for making a play. If the WR runs a great route and beats his man all over, and Baker doesn't throw him the ball or misses him, the WR still gets graded positively for route running and separation.
I don't know how you square PFF suggesting we had WR's more open than other teams - I guess I need to know more about exactly what the stat was. Wasn't it something about the Browns having more than 2 WR open on plays? Maybe that's a very low total for the entire NFL and we happen to lead that category, but for the majority of plays where only 1 or 2 WR get open we are much worse? I don't know. It's certainly counter intuitive. Maybe PFF will address it at some point?
What I do know - PFF grades every player, every position, based on their performance on every down they play. Our WR's are not good. I don't know what the grades are for all of them - Landry I expected would have been our best rated WR. If he isn't I would go back and dismiss the grades he got for playing injured or when he came back from injury because he was clearly not right. I'd also be interested in OBJ's grades - both as a Brown and a Ram. just out of curiosity.
If their is difference of opinions in a "franchise"'QB , much like with Baker Then he isnt really a franchise QB is he?
Are the Chiefs fans divided on Mahomes...How about Rodgers....are Packer fans torn How about Burrow in Cincy, how many want him.replaced? Do the Cards fans think Kyler Murray should be replaced?
The Baker fan club overlooks the fact that he is most turnover prone QB in the league
Packers fans were divided over Favre for almost his entire career. Guess who Baker has been compared to since his senior year?
I believe this to be an accurate take on the receivers:
" However bad the quarterback play was for the Cleveland Browns in 2021, the wide receivers position was worse. A group that was supposed to be a strength demonstrated all of the staying power of Corey Coleman, giving way to injuries, regression and even desertion, reducing it one of the least effective on the team alongside defensive tackle and punter while being the most expensive.
The Browns took a calculated risk with Odell Beckham Jr. coming off of the ACL surgery combined with the ineffective play Jarvis Landry showed in 2020 as he battled through multiple injuries, most notably broken ribs. It didn't pay off and the Browns should have moved on from at least Beckham, but likely both Bayou Bengals receivers ahead of this season, freeing up approximately $26.2 million to use either on different wide receivers or otherwise bolster the team.
Beckham's $14.5 million salary being fully guaranteed in 2021 as a result of the injury he suffered the previous season may have been a non-starter for potential trade partners, knowing they'd be on the hook for the full amount. And if the Browns were going to be stuck with trying to make it work with Beckham, they weren't going to move on from Landry, since both could be let go easily after the season, giving them a clean break in terms of contracts and the salary cap.
Recognizing the pitfalls at the position, the Browns saw the 2021 NFL Draft as an avenue to add more speed, mitigate costs and reinforce the position as well as planning ahead for a post LSU reality.
In the second round of the NFL Draft, the Browns, slated tor pick 59th, had three main targets. One of those was wide receiver Rondale Moore, a short, densely built speedster from Purdue. The Arizona Cardinals selected Moore with the 49th pick, prompting the Browns to work the phones to make a move to get one of the other two players they had targeted. Pass rusher Azeez Ojulari, the second prospect the Browns liked, went 50th to the New York Giants. The Browns secured a swap with the Carolina Panthers for the 52nd pick, where they selected the third, linebacker Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah.
Still in search for speed at the receiver position, the Browns would select 20-year old sprinter Anthony Schwartz out of Auburn in round 3, knowing full well he was at least a year away from being a full service wide receiver. He might be able to make the occasional contribution as a jet player and deep shot, but they had no delusions he would come in and be a major contributor.
Unfortunately for Schwartz, he really didn't get much of an offseason as hamstring injuries wiped out training camp and all but the last week of the preseason. That was followed in the regular season by a severe concussion that would take five weeks to fully recover. Even if the Browns were counting on contributions from Schwartz, fate prevented it from happening.
Rashard Higgins, coming off the best season of his career in 2020, turned into a pumpkin in 2021. A player that succeeded in spite of physical limitations last season, because he was precise and reliable proved to be anything but in 2021.
Mayfield's drop-off in play from 2020 and 2021 certainly had an impact, but it only goes so far. The level of volatility is indicative of the problem at the position. Quarterback play is going to help or hurt a position that depends on it for production, but it begs the question what value the player is bringing to the table when the difference is this stark.
Contrast that against Donovan Peoples-Jones, a second year wide receiver thrust into the spotlight this season after Odell Beckham Jr. quit on the team. Jones, a player the Browns seemed to have a good handle on how to employ relative to his development arc became the team's top receiver by default.
He still has plenty to learn as he continues to refine his technique and better understands how to use his size and strength. Nevertheless, Jones ended up not only leading the team in receiving yards, but was the most efficient receiver on the team in spite of any growing pains he may have endured.
Perhaps evidence of just how good Jones can be for this team, everything else about this chart underlines how putrid the Browns wide receiver position was this year.
If this isn't bad enough, running back Nick Chubb averaged 7 yards per target as he chipped in 174 receiving yards this year. That would put him above Beckham, Landry, Schwartz and Higgins. Austin Hooper's catastrophic season is a topic unto itself.
Odell Beckham hid behind his father's social media to blame everyone else for his struggles including Mayfield and head coach Kevin Stefanski on his way out of Cleveland. Unfortunately for Beckham, the change in scenery he forced hasn't been the panacea the malcontented receiver believed it would be. His efficiency with the Los Angeles Rams the rest of the regular season dropped even further to 6.35 yards per target.
Looking ahead to 2022, Beckham resolved his situation for the Browns, freeing them from any further burden either financial or otherwise, but the Browns will have a decision to make on Landry, who is scheduled to earn $16.6 million in 2022. Moving him would cost them $1.5 million in dead cap, freeing up as much as $15.1 million in cap space.
Another year impacted by injury, Landry missed games for the first time in his career as a result of a sprained knee two snaps into the second game of the season. After three games on injured reserve, Landry came back against the Denver Broncos only to suffer a new injury to the same knee. He played through the pain, save for a game missed while on the Reserve/COVID-19 list and the results were the worst season of his career.
Beyond the financial matter that would need to be resolved, likely resulting in an overwhelming pay cut Landry may not be keen on taking, the issue of his role within the team would also be up for discussion. For an offense that utilizes the tight end position as much as the Browns do, the ability to threaten the opponent vertically or otherwise create space becomes critical at wide receiver.
An area Landry has never excelled, he's always been a beneficiary of space created by other players dating back to college, using his intelligence and awareness to exploit holes in the defense. Landry also struggles against man coverage, which has been a glaring issue for the Browns the two seasons Kevin Stefanski has been the head coach.
The contributions Landry makes within the locker room and in helping other wide receivers are valuable, but he also wants to be a factor in the offense, not simply a glorified coach. Finding the sweet spot where he feels validated as a player in his role as well as salary balanced against the goals of the team is going to be a difficult mark to hit.
With Higgins, it's not about the financial implications but deciding if he's worth the roster spot. The Browns like Higgins as a person. He's a positive influence in the locker room. They may re-sign him for that reason, but the spot wouldn't be guaranteed. Higgins would have to earn it in camp.
He's become as confounding and unpredictable as a crafty left handed relief pitcher. Two of the last four seasons, he's been an asset on the field contrasted against two years where he's been a non-factor, even forgettable. Perhaps given the fact it will be an even numbered year, Higgins is due to be effective again.
As it currently stands, the only wide receivers that are safe for the Browns headed into the 2022 season are Donovan Peoples-Jones, the best on the team and Anthony Schwartz, the team's third round pick from the most recent NFL Draft. Even as Schwartz has potential, the Browns cannot go into next season penciling Schwartz in as a featured part of their offense. He's going to have to prove himself.
Factoring in what Demetric Felton can do both as a running back and wide receiver, the Browns will be in the market for at least three new options acquired through the draft or from other teams in the coming offseason.
Regardless of who plays quarterback for the Browns next season, wide receiver has limited what this offense can achieve and will be a priority, one that general manager Andrew Berry will attack with similar ferocity to the the offensive line ahead of the 2019 season and secondary for 2020."
I don't see the problem all have with Baker. He played great without the injury and played crappy with the injury.
Posters say but he claimed to be good to go so we should throw him under the bus on him playing bad and it is how we should judge him. Yeah if you are a Steeler, Raven, Bengal fan. The guy sucked it up and said he was good to go as it was made obvious to him that he was the better chance to win even injured so he played injured and now fans out there want to hold him to that playing with injury. Where is the common sense here.
If he was selfish he would have shut down and got the surgery as soon as the swelling went down and it was obvious that there was a torn Labrum involved. : forcing an early end to the Browns season. So for the owners to make money, for the HC to have a chance and win some games but they would have to coach us into those wins. But more important for us fans and this is what happens in return... even myself thinking out loud that Ski put Baker in a bad way so he can get him out of town. The kid without injuries OBJ's dad or not he would play great football for us. I shake my head at you guys for thinking about getting rid of Baker. If he doesn't give up and plays injured then he should play like a pro bowl QB. I cannot believe how much some of you hate Baker oh that's right he plant the OK flag insulting the Buckeye nation.
Good read and pretty fair I would say. Hope it is a position we can flip from a weakness to a strength this offseason. While a boss ILB would be awesome on D - the need for a genuine #1 WR is probably the teams biggest need right now. WR in general - but having a reliable go to WR is huge.
I think its a chicken/egg deal. Are the receivers that bad because of mayfield or is Baker this bad because of the receivers. We've seen evidence of both. Problem is I'm not sure theres a WR worth keeping after what we saw this year. Love Landry, but almost 17 mil for that production is Andre Rison type shenanigans. I think whether or not he comes back is 100% dependent on him restructuring that deal. Problem is we have too many WR that have the same skill set.. I don't agree with the article about DNP or Schwartz, theres tons of Schwartz's bagging groceries and washing cars.. I don't see him making it out of camp. DNP being our best receiver shows how bad that unit really was. He's very streaky, ok for a 4/5 receiver but not your supposed #1, we have to get that #1 this year. Someone who can make contested catches and make plays with the ball.
A GM has to be honest in his evaluation. It has nothing to do with conspiracy. Nothing at all.
Coaches try to win. When you don't. You get fired.
I started a thread titled "what went wrong." Some wanted to lay all the blame on Baker. Any other reasons were labled as excuses.
Obviously many things went wrong. A roster has 53 players plus a "practice squad." Add an entire group of coaches and the front office.
All must share the blame. Yet we won 8 games and for sure left at least two wins on the field. Those two plus games were the difference in going to the playoffs.
There is no doubt that the receivers unit must be overhauled. In addition the play at quarterback must improve.
No matter if you believe that Baker will improve or if you believe Baker has to go. The performance from the quarterback position must improve.
As it stands today Baker and Keenum are under contract. Until something gets done we should assume that Baker will be the starter next year.
I guess it should be assumed Keenum will return as well.
If there are no changes in the quarterback room? Then we have to figure that other positions groups will change. Normally a third of the roster changes.
The analytics group of the Browns have a large budget. They are being paid for information that is expected to help.
Numbers are crunched and position groups are analyzed. Priorities are established.
I expect that the 2022 Browns will look quite a bit different come the last cut day.
Baker played ok before the injury. Let's not fool ourselves. Just because a QB completes A high % of his passes doesnt make him great nor does it totally define His body of work. He was healthy vs the Chiefs and Texans. Not exactly formdible defenses At the start of the 2021 season. Baker played average at best in 2021. He never threw for more than 2 TDs passes in a single game. He had what 2-300 yd passing games all year His TD to INT ratio was among worst in the league. He wet the bed in the 4th quarter when the Browns needed him To justify why he was drafted over Josh Allen.
Its 2022. DCs and scouting departments have Mayfield figured out Keep him in the pocket cause he is vertically challenged height wise Load the box up and make him beat you facing single coverage What % of throws over 30 yds did he complete this year? Baker doesnt have the courage for the lack of a better word to challenge Secondarys if his target isnt totally wide open. Baker is too thin skinned. He rather complete safe throws within 7 to.10 yds That why he cant get face the fire from the fans and media for INTs Yet somehow he threw conservative all year and still led the league in INTs
Baker is not the best QB of his draft class. Thats why he has only 1 playoff appearance and Allen and Jackson have 3 each
So basically the goal posts change as required to shed Baker in a bad light? People bemoan his low completion % - and then when you point to 80% completion the criteria change to something else. Got it.
Baker struggled this year - once he was injured. Let's see him healthy and see if he can be a top 5 QB in the NFL - again.
Fairly written article with one exception . It didn't mention Stefanski's culpability's . You design passing routes to take advantage of what the opposing Defence gives you. Stefanski didn't.
Fairly written article with one exception . It didn't mention Stefanski's culpability's . You design passing routes to take advantage of what the opposing Defence gives you. Stefanski didn't.
Honestly it seemed like a mixed bag of extremes - some games and plays it seems everything was genius. Other games and stretches of games it was like we ran right into the defense's strengths and we had WR running really close to each other. And then we had the 3 TE sets ... but that might have been influenced by injury as much as anything.
Fairly written article with one exception . It didn't mention Stefanski's culpability's . You design passing routes to take advantage of what the opposing Defence gives you. Stefanski didn't.
He should of had three or more receivers open less?
I just feel that trying to make a case based on two games is foolish. QB's have streaks where they look great and times when they don't. Anecdotal evidence based on a very small body of work means nothing.
If you look at last season, the last half of the regular season where people claim Baker was so great. Memories can sometimes play tricks on people. Over that eight game span our O scored 10 points against the Texans, 22 points against the Eagles, 20 points against the Giants and 16 points against the Jets. That shows an O that fluctuates, not one that is consistent. Even in the playoff games. In the wildcard round we put up 48 against the Steelers. The very next week we put up 17 against the Chiefs.
Now I have no idea how the season would have played out had Baker stayed healthy. I would certainly have bet our O would have been much more productive. I know the injuries certainly hampered Baker. But how much and how many aspects of his game it influenced, I have no idea. But neither do those claiming they do.
In fairness isolating two games rather than his body of work is just as slanted as anything else.
Two games in which we faced a Kansas City that was horrible at the time and the Texans.
Tyrann Mathieu and Frank Clark were also out that game.
More importantly, when the Browns needed a score to win the game they went:
3 plays, 3 yards - Punt
5 Plays, 31 yards - Interception
Game over.
Browns Receiving Grade rank per PFF:
2021: 27th 2020: 11th
Same pass catchers outside of addition of Schwartz and loss of Hodge. Hodge must've meant a lot to this team! OBJ played 6 games in 2020 and 6 games in 2021.
In fairness isolating two games rather than his body of work is just as slanted as anything else.
Well it would be - except there is a significant and dramatic difference between what happened in those two games and after, and what was different about those two games and after. And the 2 games actually are seamless with the 9 games before them from last season where Baker played at what some might be considered an acceptable level. I know that some of the Baker haters might not feel that playing like a top 5 QB in the entire NFL is good enough - but most might find it passable. Maybe.
And regards my comment that you responded to - it was in reply to someone who was specifically only talking about those 2 games. Right? So talking specifically about those 2 games in response to someone who basically said Baker didn't do much in those specific 2 games ... would seem appropriate. yes?
I mean we've had this discussion - and done it to death. Baker was hurt this year. And the constant negative bombardment on his crappy play this year is old. Now apparently David Mills is better than an injured Baker. Who knew? Who cares?
Yes it is. Again, I would give Baker another year when healthy. If it's more of the same then something will have to be done. In the meantime, as I stated in a previous post, Mitch Trubisky might be a good pickup. He had some success in Chicago and that is another place where QB's get beat up. A fresh start here might be just what he needs and having him as a backup is good insurance if nothing else. JMO
Sure is .... just imagine what Crab Boy's stats would be if he'd had 4 HC in 3 years. 4 OC. Hue Jackson and Freddie as a coach --- AND played 16 games with a Torn Labarum. Would definitely be very very brutal.
There is nothing "seamless" about the last nine games of last year and the first two games of this year. It's not even close. We scored 17 points against the chiefs defense. 16 points against the Jets and 20 points against the Giants. And Baker didn't throw anywhere close to 80% in that stretch of games either. That's why using a very small window like 2 games doesn't really mean anything.
I think he played at an acceptable level overall during that 9 game stretch. But it wasn't some 9 game stretch of fabulous football. And the numbers from that stretch weren't anywhere close to the first two games this year. There's no actual comparison there.
Are you saying Baker played acceptable last year for those 9 games... And the two games this year were outliers and much better. But 2 games is not a sample size worth referencing?
Baker faced some real weak defenses in the Miracle of Richfield 2020 season And he took.advantage of those defenses. In order for Mayfield to.excell at a high level His surrounding cast has play at a high level. He cant carry a offense on.his back
Confidence shattered. Baker seeing ghosts and double clutching.
Yup. And no one has explained what happened other than he was injured. Which makes me not want a QB who loses all his confidence if he’s injured.
This makes me think about the pressers from other players.. Most if not all say" Baker is tough". They also say they" support him, but we support all of our QB's in the room". I haven't heard any player say anything more.
Where's the we can win with him and have faith next year we will when when he's healthy ?
Not bashing, just find it odd there aren't more supportive words other than he's tough.
What’s weird about seeing ghosts this year is that the pass protection was really good overall.
Uh...no.
Blake Hance started (8) games...several at LT.
Hudson started (4) games...he couldn't even fart on Watt. Who wouldn't see ghosts with that guy on your right...or left.
Those guys manned the LT & RT spots together in a game.
Baker may be seeing ghosts and he certainly had a sub-par year with many bad plays...but pretending that the pass protection was "really good overall" is quite the reach.
To me it is about Bakers floor. It can go pretty low.
I doubt there is a QB in the league that doesn't have a damn low floor,,, if injured, as Baker was this past season..
This isn't the season to judge him.
All seasons are open to judging just like every day on the job for any of us is subject to judging. I am not saying we should fire him, but we might not want to run out and give him a raise.
What’s weird about seeing ghosts this year is that the pass protection was really good overall.
Uh...no.
Blake Hance started (8) games...several at LT.
Hudson started (4) games...he couldn't even fart on Watt. Who wouldn't see ghosts with that guy on your right...or left.
Those guys manned the LT & RT spots together in a game.
Baker may be seeing ghosts and he certainly had a sub-par year with many bad plays...but pretending that the pass protection was "really good overall" is quite the reach.
How many sacks did Baker cause on his own that game? Quite a few. Also, a QB in his 4th year should absolutely know where Watt is on the field and be able to get the ball out quickly. The Browns had as many pressures as the Steelers in that game. The difference? The geriatric Roethlisberger got the ball out quickly instead of triple clutching and running into sacks.
Baker was responsible for getting sacked more than any other QB in the league this year and that's with the 6th best ranked OL in pass protection.
Nick Mullins played with Blake Hance and Michael Dunn and was sacked zero times.
Baker's confidence is completely shattered and he was seeing ghosts. He needs fixed.
What’s weird about seeing ghosts this year is that the pass protection was really good overall.
Uh...no.
Blake Hance started (8) games...several at LT.
Hudson started (4) games...he couldn't even fart on Watt. Who wouldn't see ghosts with that guy on your right...or left.
Those guys manned the LT & RT spots together in a game.
Baker may be seeing ghosts and he certainly had a sub-par year with many bad plays...but pretending that the pass protection was "really good overall" is quite the reach.
How many sacks did Baker cause on his own that game? Quite a few. Also, a QB in his 4th year should absolutely know where Watt is on the field and be able to get the ball out quickly. The Browns had as many pressures as the Steelers in that game. The difference? The geriatric Roethlisberger got the ball out quickly instead of triple clutching and running into sacks.
Baker was responsible for getting sacked more than any other QB in the league this year and that's with the 6th best ranked OL in pass protection.
Nick Mullins played with Blake Hance and Michael Dunn and was sacked zero times.
Baker's confidence is completely shattered and he was seeing ghosts. He needs fixed.
Looks like 3 open options, though he may not have been able to see the receiver on the left.
Maybe Felton was in the game and going deep...anytime Felton enters, you know we are going to him...lol
Are you saying Baker played acceptable last year for those 9 games... And the two games this year were outliers and much better. But 2 games is not a sample size worth referencing?
That's exactly what I'm saying. No QB in the history of the NFL has thrown for 80% over the course of a season. So no, those two games in isolation, even compared to the previous season look nothing like anything during Baker's career. You can isolate two consecutive starts in any QB's career to paint any picture you desire. This year alone Mahomes put up 3 points up against the Titans, the following week 20 points against the lowly Giants and the next week 13 points against the Packers. Mahomes must really suck!
By contrast since went 11-5 last year and Baker did so well in his first two games, Stefnaski must be a great HC. Since our WR's were ranked 11th in 2020 and did so well those first two weeks, we must have a good WR core. You can't have it all one way with Baker and the other way with everyone else that's taking blame.
Great .... so when I replied to someone who was trashing Baker's performance in those 2 games - whether they were small sample size or not - whether they were seamless with the 9 games prior or not (bad choice of words by me - they followed on from, they were not seamless ... but it does not matter) ... why then would you try to take a position that disagreed with me? My response was specific to those 2 games because someone tried to discredit them and basically create a new argument that even when Baker completes 80+% of passes ... it doesn't mean he played well and in fact he was "meh" in those 2 games. . . . you just said yourself those 2 games Baker played very well and much better than the 9 games from the end of the previous season.
And even though there are different reasonings for why we feel this way, I think most, myself included, think Baker should be back next year to see how a healthy Baker will respond.
I say this every time: I like the guy. I want him to play great. I know the injuries hurt him and he was tough. But what I don’t buy, in year four, is that he needs to rebuild his confidence, he has to have a chip on his shoulder, or that Case Keenum is needed as a “mentor.” He’s a veteran at this point. We can’t keep acting like he is a child. They need to get him healthy and they need a plan B. We can do both.
Pretty much any QB in the league can do what Baker did this year. Deliver an 8-9 record with this roster. Most, just about all QBs, would be an upgrade over Baker for next year.
Baker is a truly awful QB by any measurement you want to use...stats, the eye test, overwhelming opinions. He even knows he's not very good which is why he is always seeking extra credit for the "culture change" since he arrived. He's thin skinned and mentally weak. And he either doesn't work very hard or just can't translate work to production. The former is awful, the latter better but with no change in result. I suspect he works hard in the building and during the season. What he does during the off season is anyone's guess.
If the Browns run it back with Baker next year, it's a fingers crossed type of situation. Baker has never gotten it in 4 years, not even in this now larger than life 9 game span from 2020. Has anything ever been embellished more? Baker's defining moment of 2020 was having a golden opportunity to upset a Mahomes-less Chiefs team and on the most important drive of the season and his career, he underthrows a wide open Njoku on 3rd and long. He had played pretty well all the way up until that point. The only difference at that point in the game was this was a pressure packed situation. There was no reason he should not have completed that pass. But again, when the pressure is on, he simply doesn't deliver.
If the Browns run it back with Baker next year, I hope there is some type of light bulb moment for him. He's short, unathletic, and really does nothing special. The only thing that is going to take Baker to the next level is his brain. That's it. If he doesn't get it upstairs, he's destined to be out of the league or riding the pine in very short order.
Questions for the board ... it seems like we saw a lot less of the play action-rollouts from Mayfield this year after seeing them be really successful in 2020. My question is did defenses take it away, or did we just stop using it as much? I do recall some instances when we tried it and it seemed like the defense had a DB or LB in Mayfield's grill almost immediately. If it was taken/schemed away, was there a counter-adjustment we could have tried?
The whole league caught on to defending this offense. And it's the only thing Baker does well. And we saw the results.
.... And he either doesn't work very hard or just can't translate work to production. The former is awful, the latter better but with no change in result. I suspect he works hard in the building and during the season. What he does during the off season is anyone's guess..
I have no doubt he works very hard in the building, but have not seen evidence of him putting in the additional work that is required to be at the top of the profession. Especially, given his lack of God-given abilities. He has to outwork others to be at the top.
His ego gets in his way. He's on record saying he does not need a QB coach in the off-season. Doesn't need anyone to teach him a three-step drop. Pride and overconfidence are not good traits.
Comments at the bye week...
Camryn Justice @camijustice #Browns Baker Mayfield said he went to Arizona and then down to Austin to see family during the bye week.
Sara Walsh @Sara_Walsh Brady on his bye week: “It’s football season and we’re football players. You think about football most of the time. You don’t go on vacation.”
Versatile Dog’s greatest win was saying Baker needed to go to a QB coach in the off-season. It’s pretty clear that he does and should. If he doesn’t it is pretty telling.
Versatile Dog’s greatest win was saying Baker needed to go to a QB coach in the off-season. It’s pretty clear that he does and should. If he doesn’t it is pretty telling.
Pretty much any QB in the league can do what Baker did this year. Deliver an 8-9 record with this roster. Most, just about all QBs, would be an upgrade over Baker for next year.
Baker is a truly awful QB by any measurement you want to use...stats, the eye test, overwhelming opinions. He even knows he's not very good which is why he is always seeking extra credit for the "culture change" since he arrived. He's thin skinned and mentally weak. And he either doesn't work very hard or just can't translate work to production. The former is awful, the latter better but with no change in result. I suspect he works hard in the building and during the season. What he does during the off season is anyone's guess.
If the Browns run it back with Baker next year, it's a fingers crossed type of situation. Baker has never gotten it in 4 years, not even in this now larger than life 9 game span from 2020. Has anything ever been embellished more? Baker's defining moment of 2020 was having a golden opportunity to upset a Mahomes-less Chiefs team and on the most important drive of the season and his career, he underthrows a wide open Njoku on 3rd and long. He had played pretty well all the way up until that point. The only difference at that point in the game was this was a pressure packed situation. There was no reason he should not have completed that pass. But again, when the pressure is on, he simply doesn't deliver.
If the Browns run it back with Baker next year, I hope there is some type of light bulb moment for him. He's short, unathletic, and really does nothing special. The only thing that is going to take Baker to the next level is his brain. That's it. If he doesn't get it upstairs, he's destined to be out of the league or riding the pine in very short order.
Prove me wrong Baker.
I will agree that Baker is thin skinned. I will also add that the chip Baker is known to carry lends itself to him not being open to coaching.
Much was talked about his mechanics last year when Van Pelt came aboard. Things he needed to do to improve. It's fairly evident he hasn't improved, and the staff isn't talking about it leading me to believe it is a "sore" subject inside the film room.
In baseball pitching coaches go through this all the time, but if the pitcher keeps painting the edge, missing bats, or throwing out's, they don't worry about it. I don't think Bakers results are such that the staff isn't worried about it.
I don’t believe Baker ignores coaching. I also believe he would be much better if he got some help with some of the minutiae during the off-season. Like others have said, Tom Brady is the standard. If he has a private QB coach then Baker needs to have a private QB coach. Do we think Josh Allen went from unplayable to a top five QB working on his own in the off-season?
Allen unplayable - Good Lord. Should have been the top pick in the draft that year.
But you can thank John "Doof" Dorsey for him not being the top pick in the draft. All the clown posters who said, but he is not accurate and could never become accurate - please. What have you got to say now?
Allen unplayable - Good Lord. Should have been the top pick in the draft that year.
But you can thank John "Doof" Dorsey for him not being the top pick in the draft. All the clown posters who said, but he is not accurate and could never become accurate - please. What have you got to say now?
Watching Josh Allen his first season versus what we saw last night is watching two different players. I’ll never forget watching Allen in OT in the playoffs against the Texans and he was literally throwing the ball anywhere because he didn’t know what to do. I didn’t think there was anyway he could become what he has become.
It is a testament to Allen’s work on his own in the off-season with Jordan Palmer and the coaching staff’s ability to put him in great spots. I have never seen a player develop the way Allen has over the past several years.
Agreed - but the talent and ability was always there. The upside was enormous from the get-go. Dorsey screwed the pooch.
It’s pretty clear Josh Allen is the best QB from that draft. Two years ago I would have said it was Lamar Jackson. Either way Baker is clearly third best.
Say what you will. Josh Allen was very raw coming into the NFL. It took a lot of time and work before he came close to what he is now. That was the worry in drafting him. That's why he was actually the third QB drafted in 2018. Trying to predict how or if he would develop into a good NFL QB was quite a gamble. The Bills won that roll of the dice. But let's not try and play 20/20 hind sight and pretend it was a logical conclusion at the time.
6'5" 240 lb QBs with rocket arms and incredible athleticism do not grow on trees. He came from a pro-style offense in college unlike any of the other draftable QBs. He was worth the risk.
He has led his team to the playoffs the last 3 years. Not a long time - 1 year.
It was Dorsey's job to evaluate and project what all those QBs would/could become. He failed miserably.
As Throw Long correctly pointed out, it is doubtful that Josh Allen would have entered the Cleveland maelstrom and turned out as he has. Instead he entered a highly stable situation where he could develop and grow. That is the polar opposite of the situation Baker entered. I understand you can claim the chicken-or-egg argument, but it simply does not hold water…the proof is that the Browns organization has ruined 30 QB’s, in succession. What are the odds?
It is a sort of curse to go number 1, as you are likely going to a very dysfunctional organization. Going number to the Browns is the curse of all curses. Better to go 10-30 in the first round and go to stable places. Chiefs-Mahomes, Lamar-Ravens, Mac Jones-Patriots, Rodgers-Packers.
Josh Allen shot up the boards based on his athleticism. Most did not have him as worthy of the #1 pick in the draft - because he went to a small college, played against inferior competition - and had a completion rate of less than 57% both seasons as a starter. . . . College QB's for the most part do not become more accurate once they hit the NFL. Allen deserves mad props. Darnold was picked by the most number of pundits to be the safest pick. Rosen was next - then it was sort of a mixed bag of Baker, Allen and some Lamar.
Has accuracy issues Ball security Decision-making needs to improve Throws too many interceptions Needs to improve ability to throw finesse throws Struggled against better teams Played at a low level of competition Concerns about production and ability to be a clutch performer
Bleacher Report
NEGATIVES
—Allen's film shows poor decisions and errant passes where the ball gets away from him.
—His subpar completion percentage (56 percent) can be attributed to poor decisions, passes thrown too hard, drops and plain misses.
—When Allen misses, he tends to miss big and often throws high on crossing routes.
—His footwork needs to be refined so that he's stepping into throws and aligning his lower body with his shoulders—an issue a lot of "arm" throwers have.
—He leaves a clean pocket too often (not trusting his offensive line) and will extend plays instead of throwing the ball away, which can lead to lost yards.
You can throw a tantrum about it all you like, but there were more questions than answers when he came into the draft. I mean even the competition he played against alone left a lot of question marks. But you do you.
aye chubb get ready next season. cause you, hunt, and d'ernest are definitely gonna be the fall guys. its always someone elses fault.
You're right, we are running out of scapegoats.
It was the OL, but it turns out they were #6 in the NFL this year. And with pass protection had a 67% win rate. Only 2 teams better, both with 68%. Someone pointed out that when Mullens played, he was not sacked at all even though we used both Hance and Hudson that game.
It was also the play calling, but it turns out we had more plays with open receivers than any other team in the NFL.
It was also the defense, though they were #5 in yardage allowed, and #1 in pass coverage. And gave up 16 or fewer points in 9 games, 5 of those divisional games.
I think right now it is analytics. And after that, I think you're right. It will be the run game. It's all that is left to throw under the bus.
truly pathetic to see everyone crying the grass is greener “over there” after they torched their own grass. Actually torched their grass 30 times succession. Even sadder…maybe neurotic that they blame the grass every time and never once see the source of the problem.
Exactly and if Allen came here and played the way he did his 1st year everyone would have crucified him. Besides, the way we chew up QB's here, do you really think he would have developed the way he has? I doubt it. We would have said he was a bust and another wasted 1st round pick and his confidence would have been in the dumpster. He probably would have been ruined.
truly pathetic to see everyone crying the grass is greener “over there” after they torched their own grass. Actually torched their grass 30 times succession. Even sadder…maybe neurotic that they blame the grass every time and never once see the source of the problem.
It's also sad and maybe neurotic that you blame every other blade of grass with the exception of one.
See, that's the problem here. You think it's an all or nothing sum game. It's not. Your problem is you want to point the finger at everyone else and act as if Baker has no issues or part in it. He does. He's not the only problem but he is a part of the problem. But you don't seem to care about any of that.
You see, I'm one of the people who thinks Baker should return next year. I've said it over and over again. But you have paid no attention to that because somehow in your mind everyone but Baker is part of the problem. Maybe you're too busy making every excuse in the book and too busy blaming everyone else to be objective.
Pit I fully admit Baker is falling short. The question is why? From my view the Browns have taken a Confident, gun-slinger, who was basically the rookie of the year (yes he definitely had his flaws as a rookie) but those flaws have steadily grown, and strengths have diminished, with the ineptitude of the organization and coaches (Haslam, Dorsey-getting OBJ, Hue, Kitchens). Then Stefanski and company come in and effectively castrate him with their “grind it out offense” (although the grinding never happens). Couple that with the OBJ fiasco and the complete stupidity of having him play injured in his 4th year, then acting like the injuries are not a main source of his failure this year, and voila you have the broken, 4th year QB, unrecognizable compared to when he entered the league. Throw him on the trash heap, wash your hands, and repeat. This is a clinic on how to destroy a promising QB. For a clinic on how to do it right, see the Bills and Ravens.
We have one of the best running games in the NFL. A balanced offense is the best possible way to use the weapons this team has. Once again you "claim" to see Baker is falling short and blame everyone but Baker for all of it.
OBJ, really? You're still trying to blame him? Well obviously we have been better without him, right?
Could you explain to me why we had the second most open WR's in the NFL on pass plays and Baker couldn't seem to find them?
Let me ask you how Baker was "castrated" when we went 11-5 last season and made the playoffs? Are you saying A healthy Keenum would have done better than an injured Baker?
Or are you saying that an injured Baker should have been cut loose to throw the ball a lot more?
I find you message confusing because you look at everything from only one side.
**Apparently** - someone at PFF did an article and CLE had 2 or 3 WR more open on more plays than most other teams. Something like that.
I trust the player grades by PFF very much... I don't know how you square the WR's being graded like trash and the WR being open. I know that PFF grades the player on how they perform - if they were consistently open and Baker was missing them all the time - the WR grades would still be good.
I don't buy the rankings, recievers are judged on how they catch the ball, their ability to get open , but if you have a qb that sucks (as we did this year) there is no way to accurately grade the receivers when they simply don't have the opportunities. PFF doesn't grade them well if they aren't getting the ball, its impossible to. I laughed when I saw someone say we should build around schwartz..lol, dude will be out of the league in 3 years or less. We def. need to restructure Landry. He's a great slot guy and good locker room guy, its the DNP, Higgins, and Bradleys of the world that need upgraded . We need our true game changing #1, but we have to be sure that will be what fixes it.. Because we go out and get a Adams/chase kinda guy and your QB is still bad, just going to be a waste
Well I have read that they grade run blocking and other non-targeted actions. Whether that was official or someone's opinion I can't tell you.
As for 3 WR open or more - I wonder what % of plays that covers over the course of the year? I'd bet money that it is less than 10% - it wouldn't surprise me if it is less than 5% of plays. I am not sure that's truly a meaningful stat. . . What I would also guess is that of the QB with 3 WR open on a play, Baker might have been one of the poorest performers and that would mean something.
The Browns offense is facilitated through the run game and a low risk, high completion % Passing game. The problem is, you cant win the AFC on that philosophy On offense. You can win 8 to.10 games. But thats the ceiling.
The Baker fan club cant admit, that Baker is really a game manager Who defines every cliche given to a QB with limited physical attributes He has a chip on his shoulder, he's a gamer, he's a leader. 1st one in, the last to leave building. Browns wont win the North until.the offensive philosophy changes To a more modern passing game
2020 is irrelevant. The Browns had a cupcake schedule in 2020. Baker regressed in 2021. The Browns underachieved with 8 wins in 2021. Interesting though, the Browns had the #1 ranked Oline by PFF. So it goes to.show having the best oline in.the NFL.does not equate to success on offense So thus the Browns inability to put points on the scoreboard consistantly falls back On the QB. The QB metrics doesnt lie. Baker threw the most uncatchable balls. He had the worst rating in.the 4th quarter. His TD to INT ratio among the leagues worst.
It says that 37.7% of pass plays we had three or more receivers open.
If that is true, and the QB doesn't release the ball, and the Coach doesn't change to another quarterback, then whose fault is it. I'll tell you, (Youl'd think it's the Coach, I almost said it's the coach, I want to say it's the Coach, IT SHOULD BE The COACH, for Leadership) but! I think, suspect, speculate, whatever, that the ... ... Owner(s), forced the Coach, to not change the QB, then it would be Well it would be whomever is actually responsible for not benching the QB for not throwing the ball to the open receivers and having the guts to field a quarterback who has the wherewithal to make throws, and with each passing week that it was apparent and repeating, it would become more agregious. OR OR!!! the 37.7% is a bogus (bc) stat, that's not true, or not fully true.
What do folks think it would take to get Russell Wilson? I would imagine we would need to get some receivers for him to even think about it. Would two first-rounders do it? Would we throw in Kareem Hunt? Would they even be interested in getting Baker in the deal?
And could Carr be had for a bit less? I don't understand why people think the Raiders would get rid of Carr, but everyone says that. I like him a lot. I am not as interested in Cousins, since he makes $45M.
We'd all like to see Baker come back and win big. But the team is built to win now at every position except his, which remains a question mark going into year 5. If you can get Russell Wilson and hand him the league's best offensive line, a great running game and a top 5 defense, I think you have to do it. It seems like he can be had, but I don't know at what price.
We cut loose from Baker it would go down as one of the most stupid moves the Browns make...start another jersey with 20+ names on it playing QB....Got tear your Labrum, you guys wouldn't be able to wipe your ass let alone play football. Should he have shut down just not in his mode to do that he will play as long as he can stand. That is what coaches are for. They don't ask are you good and then see the product and do nothing. but but he said he was good to go.
We'd all like to see Baker come back and win big. But the team is built to win now at every position except his, which remains a question mark going into year 5. If you can get Russell Wilson and hand him the league's best offensive line, a great running game and a top 5 defense, I think you have to do it. It seems like he can be had, but I don't know at what price.
Wison has a no-trade clause for 2 more years. He would reportedly waive it for 3 teams; New York Giants, New Orleans Saints, and Denver Broncos. He's not coming here.
Aren't you always quoting Baker's pff grade during his "magical" nine game run in 2020?
Now you're crapping on a pff metric that shows Baker in a negative light.
And I'm constantly being accused of having an agenda.
I've said I trust the player grades. I don't know about this one off article - I stated clearly I'd like to know what the criteria are and how they graded this. If you watch Browns games and you believe the Browns have 3 or more receivers running open on more than 37% of your plays, you've been watching a different team than most of us. And yes, you do have an agenda as witnessed by your recent post suggesting Baker has zero talent.
If we cut Baker with no viable plan, it would certainly have a good chance of backfiring. If we were able to replace him with Russell Wilson, I don't think that would go down as one of the Browns' stupidest moves. In fact, I think we would be an instant favorite to win the AFC next year. I just don't know if it can be done. I would hope you would agree that it would be worth turning the page on Baker if we could get Aaron Rodgers (which I don't see happening). Not everyone who questions Baker "hates him" or thinks he is a loser. I certainly don't. There were some legitimate questions raised this year. He openly questioned his coaches, he held the ball when receivers were wide open, and he seems to have alienated some of his teammates. None of that is due directly to his injury, though it could be due to frustrations from being physically limited by the injury.
Aren't you always quoting Baker's pff grade during his "magical" nine game run in 2020?
Now you're crapping on a pff metric that shows Baker in a negative light.
And I'm constantly being accused of having an agenda.
I've said I trust the player grades. I don't know about this one off article - I stated clearly I'd like to know what the criteria are and how they graded this. If you watch Browns games and you believe the Browns have 3 or more receivers running open on more than 37% of your plays, you've been watching a different team than most of us. And yes, you do have an agenda as witnessed by your recent post suggesting Baker has zero talent.
So you only trust PFF when you like what they say? That seems convenient.
I agree - most people who question Baker don't hate him. He has a lot of questions to answer and needs to play better. That's all fact.
Somewhat depending on the cost - but if we landed Wilson, Rodgers ... and proven elite QB - I don't think there would be many fans that would complain. I'm still high on Garoppolo and think he might be one of the best fits for a KS offense ... but the reality is, none of those guys are coming here.
We'd all like to see Baker come back and win big. But the team is built to win now at every position except his, which remains a question mark going into year 5. If you can get Russell Wilson and hand him the league's best offensive line, a great running game and a top 5 defense, I think you have to do it. It seems like he can be had, but I don't know at what price.
Wison has a no-trade clause for 2 more years. He would reportedly waive it for 3 teams; New York Giants, New Orleans Saints, and Denver Broncos. He's not coming here.
I can understand the Saints. Don't get those other 2 teams at all. NY thinks they have their QB but they're a dumpster fire. Bronco's might be good (??). I could see wanting to go work with Payton, but you'll never convince me those other 2 teams are better destinations than Browns.
I love The Athletic and think they have quality reporting. It doesn't mean every article is right. I think the BBC is largely unbiased - but that doesn't mean that they don't get some stuff wrong. I think PFF grades are very reliable - they do sometimes give grades I wouldn't have given. As for this one article of theirs - I'd like to know more. I believe the idea that their are 3 open WR on 1/3 Browns plays is highly misleading. I say that because I watch the games. If you watch the games and believe we have 3 open receivers on 1/3 of our pass plays, then I would disagree. I'd like to see the foundation of that report and how they came up with those stats.
As I said before - a more useful stat would be what % of passes QB's complete when multiple receivers are open. Maybe Baker has 100% completion on those pass plays with 3 WR open? We don't know. Maybe Baker is last in the NFL when multiple WR are open. We don't know, though based on his performance this year it would not be a surprise.
I guess if the stat about 3 open WR is valid - I'd be interested to see a stat on % plays where no WR was open. It would not surprise if we were high on that list too. Our offense seemed like it was genius - or very bad- not a lot in between
We'd all like to see Baker come back and win big. But the team is built to win now at every position except his, which remains a question mark going into year 5. If you can get Russell Wilson and hand him the league's best offensive line, a great running game and a top 5 defense, I think you have to do it. It seems like he can be had, but I don't know at what price.
Wison has a no-trade clause for 2 more years. He would reportedly waive it for 3 teams; New York Giants, New Orleans Saints, and Denver Broncos. He's not coming here.
His wife is some kind of pop star in her own right, so that would explain NY. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, just posting what Wilson has reportedly told Seahawks FO.
These are the QBs that I would take over Baker for the 2022 season as of 1/9/22 (in no particular order):
Patrick Mahomes Justin Herbert Derek Carr Mac Jones Tua Tagovailoa Josh Allen Lamar Jackson Joe Burrow Ryan Tannehill Matthew Stafford Kyler Murray Russell Wilson Aaron Rodgers Kirk Cousins Jalen Hurts Dak Prescott Tom Brady Matt Ryan
There are several others I can be talked into.
I think I could be sold on Carr, Jones, and Tannehill, but ultimately think it's a wash talent-wise but I definitely prefer to keep Baker. For continuity sake and because Baker is way more entertaining and I think he'll be back to 2020 form next year if he's healthy.
The other's I'd take over Baker straight but, but it won't happen.
They break down every play of every team and have the exact same criteria for every team and player. The same goes for open WR's. There's no way you can possibly claim you follow that same criteria to form your opinions or even breakdown the game film of all 32 teams.
Once again, not what I said. Stop with the strawman stuff and arguing against something I didn't say. Thanks. I'm allowed to have an opinion... if you don't like it or don't agree with it, it doesn't mean you can create something I didn't say to argue with me. Thanks. Next thing you'll be agreeing me that Baker played really very well at the beginning of this year in the first 2 games of the season, but you'll try to argue with me and post something different just because.
Aren't you always quoting Baker's pff grade during his "magical" nine game run in 2020?
Now you're crapping on a pff metric that shows Baker in a negative light.
And I'm constantly being accused of having an agenda.
I've said I trust the player grades. I don't know about this one off article - I stated clearly I'd like to know what the criteria are and how they graded this. If you watch Browns games and you believe the Browns have 3 or more receivers running open on more than 37% of your plays, you've been watching a different team than most of us. And yes, you do have an agenda as witnessed by your recent post suggesting Baker has zero talent.
I watch every Browns game and do see receivers open. I also know that when fans resort to the "receivers aren't getting open" stage of explaining away poor QB play, that is a QB problem. Not only are there receivers open, he has a ton of time in the pocket. I was also claiming OBJ was open most of all games well before his dad's now infamous tweet.
And no, I don't have an agenda. I clearly state Baker is a bad QB. There is no suggestion, gray, innuendo, nothing. I don't write essays about my feelings, and I don't post articles/stats to back up my opinion. I'm not sure what constitutes an agenda, but I am being very clear when I state Baker is a very bad QB. He gives you almost no chance to win. He doesn't do one single thing well and doesn't have one single dominant physical trait. The best thing he had going for him, his confidence, now appears to be shot. If Baker were a cerebral player, he could probably make it work. He could offset his physical limitations by playing smart. But there is no indication at all that he is a cerebral player. None. If there is, please point it out to me.
Or better yet, answer these questions -
1. What does Baker do well? 2. What are Baker's dominant physical traits? 3. Instances when Baker has demonstrated playing at a high cerebral level? 4. Fourth quarter comebacks where Baker put the team on his shoulders?
The ultimate answer to all those questions will be "it is someone else's fault we can't find examples...multiple coaches, multiple coordinators, poor receivers, injured players, etc., etc., etc.". When all we have left is blaming others, that answers the question for you.
One thing that worries me about Baker, and maybe it is not fair, but I NEVER have confidence he is going to lead us to a come-from-behind win. That goes back to before this year. It seems like we have to get out to a lead and hang on by our fingernails or we're going to lose. Yet, there are teams we play where, if we are ahead, I have total confidence their guy is going to being them back. Seems like I am usually right about opponents, and always right about us on this aspect. It is true he as never had a great receiver corps, and this problem could be more because of play calling than Baker. I'm trying to be fair, because I like a lot of things about him.
Some things are factual and some things are not. Claiming it doesn't make sense why we had the second most open WR's on pass plays flies in the face of facts. There is a difference in having an opinion and denial.
Now if you wished to debate WHY Baker missed so many open targets, that would be an opinion.
What I did was point out that you had no evidence to suggest that you were correct in this never ending claim that somehow PFF didn't make sense when they stated we had the second most WR's on pass plays. And you did nothing but come at me rather than defend your position. That speaks volumes.
There are rumblings Carr might be available, but I don't get the love he's receiving. He had some big years but I don't recall him ever getting back to that level.
Carr had a great 2020 season. He was not great this year, though he was pretty good and the team was a dumpster fire that somehow squeaked into the playoffs. He's a good leader and has a strong arm. He is 30, and for his career has 193 TDs and 85 picks. He might be better than you realize. Anyway, I think this team could be a 12-win team with him.
So you didn't watch the Browns play this year. Ok - why didn't you say that?
Oh I certainly did watch. But once again you're hinting that by you watching the games that tells you which WR's were open and which one's weren't. We all know that would be a lie. We only see the camera views of the play usually. Once in awhile they will show you open WR's that were missed. And they did.
Still, all you can do is come after me and not defend your position. Typical.
I certainly understand why though. If I were You I would try anything to avoid the facts as well.
For whatever reason, Baker has lost confidence in his receivers. As many have pointed out, he has the second-highest open receiver count. We all know Baker dealt with some serious injuries requiring surgery to fix.
What I've seen mostly this past season is Baker lost his swagger. Why?
My other question to those who would like to move on from Baker. What price are you willing to pay to replace Baker? It will be costly in draft picks and salary. It is easy to say go get Russell Wilson or whomever. Obviously, when they drafted Baker, there was a plan to build around Baker and a plan to manage the salary cap. How do you fix and realign the cap space?
When Berry let OBJ go, I was wondering what the fallout would be. Again, there was a plan in place to build the receiver group with OBJ being the Guy. The overall structure of the receiver group is skewed.
How does Berry fix it? Baker worked well when Landry was the focal point. This was before OBJ came. Landry is a good YAC receiver. If Berry is letting Landry go, you need that go-to receiver. Note also Higgins was the other receiver he relied on. In my opinion, Higgins could not get separation against a #1 corner. He actually struggled against the #2. His best work was when he was the third receiver. After that, Baker relied on Njoku. I also remember Baker worked well with Perryman during his rookie year. To fix things, Berry needs to add a veteran receiver to replace Perryman. Allow Schwartz to develop into that role as "Perryman" and draft depth. Bring in a guy like Lockett and keep Landry. Keep drafting YAC/possession and deep threat receivers.
The receiver room needs to evolve with the QB. It seems to me there is a lot of change and hard to build that trust factor.
I think the bigger question here is did Baker lose confidence in his WR's, the system or lose confidence in himself? It was obvious that the shoulder harness hampered his movement so I'm not sure what it was he lost confidence in. Some people might say his WR's. Some might say Stenfanski's system. Some might say with his inaccuracy he was questioning himself. I have no idea what it was he lost confidence in but he was certainly hesitating, double clutching and holding the ball quite a bit.
Pitt, I say all of the above. Baker's level of work went way down compared to the prior years.
I don't think the WR room is the main issue. I simply think it's a hodgepodge of talent and no cohesiveness. That is not to say the receivers are good or bad. The group overall has become disjointed. I'm not sure why. It could be the receiver coach. Landry did not play like his normal self and was the glue that kept it together. This really showed once OBJ left. What stood out was "fun" left the room.
Much like when you agreed Baker played well in the first two games in the year - but tried to argue with me when that was my position - it is YOU that seems hell bent on just picking fights randomly.
I have stated my opinion on why I question the "3WR on 37% of pass plays". You don't like it and now are trying to put words in my mouth I never said. It's happened time and again recently. No wonder I am a little tired of it.
I believe the idea that their are 3 open WR on 1/3 Browns plays is highly misleading. I say that because I watch the games. If you watch the games and believe we have 3 open receivers on 1/3 of our pass plays, then I would disagree. I'd like to see the foundation of that report and how they came up with those stats.
Mmmmm hmmm. You think watching the games tells you what you need to know about how many open WR's there are on plays. It most certainly does not. They do not show you the all of the WR's on pass plays. Usually only the WR targeted. If that is your reasoning for questioning it, you have no reason. You would need all of the game tape to see it. I believe you know that. PFF breaks down all of the game tapes and bases FACTS based on those game tapes.
See - there you actually responded to what I wrote.
I disagree. The camera does not only show the targeted receiver. The commentators when they comment on coverage sacks and QB's throwing the ball away do not comment on only a targeted receiver. When i am at games I do not watch only the targeted receiver. If anyone watches the games and believes we are watching 3 WR open on more than 1/3 of our pass attempts - I would disagree. I would say I have watched many games where a 1/3 of the plays we get absolute minimal separation.
And once again with regards to PFF - they seem to have contradictory data. Because back to the WR grades - and they are all below average. No - they are flat bad. Landry was injured and came back too soon, I don't think his grade is fair. (another example of where I don't agree with the PFF grades and this is something I have mentioned before with Landry). Our next best - DPJ at what was it 63? Even if those grades are based on when they are targeted - it is inconsistent, virtually impossible that the receivers are all running great routes to get open more than any other team but then when Baker targets them - they all suddenly fall flat and wet the bed.
I think the idea that you can't watch a game on live broadcast or be at the game and get an idea of 3 receivers being open on a play is incorrect. Do you catch everything? No. Do you miss 3 receivers being open easily and consistently - no.
After four years there are enough stat splits broken out in every analytical way possible to say it is time to find a better quarterback.
Someone who can play more consistently.
However, replacing Baker is not a simple task. Because of who is available and how realistic it is to get an upgrade.
That is not to say Baker has been all bad. He certainly has been better than what we have had before him.
And he has had games where he was really good.
In the end you need consistent play. Playing really good and really bad is not good. Playing consistently above average is better. It is easier to coach and prepare for.
Then we have to look at what are real options. Take the chance that Baker coming back healthy will be all we need? Saying he is under contract for next year. Bring him back see what happens. Postpone the decision.
Take a chance on guys other teams gave up on. Mariota, Trubisky, Winston fill in the blank.
Take a big swing for Watson and live with a possible suspension for x number of games; and live with what your backup will deliver. Plus what would be needed in a trade.
Give up a load and go after Russell Wilson.
Rodgers is not an option.
Finally draft a quarterback at 13. Play Baker for next year. Let Baker walk after 2022 and hope you drafted the right guy.
Honestly, I believe a case can be made for any of the above options.
Berry will have to decide. It maybe a decision that defines his career.
Speaking for myself. I don't have an answer. Because I would have to know the cost in trade. I do know; I would explore that option.
If I finally decided to postpone the decision and see what Baker does next year. I would have a better option than Keenum.
What about them? Did he break down every single play of each game? I missed that. I also didn't realize he had done studies on 3 receivers being open.
I don’t care to discuss this topic anymore with you because it seems like you are making excuses when all the information being presented you is somehow wrong.
I know it’s painful to think that Baker might not be the guy. We all care deeply for this team. The QB is the most important part of any NFL team. It is depressing to think that we might not have the guy we thought we did at this time last year. It all stinks.
That's funny. I gave you what I think many would consider a typical crfs reply and you do this. You are mixing up Baker playing badly (which is what Jake Burns has highlighted and which I do not refute) - and whether or not 3 receivers are running rampant and open on 37% of plays. Apparently you think Baker missing open receivers is some validation that 3 receivers are open. That is not the case. Sorry you don't like that fact.
It's not painful if Baker is not the guy - it'll suck because it'll mean the the Browns are back to a 20 year long search for a QB. But it's not an emotional attachment to Baker - it's a belief that you can't judge Baker on a year where he played 16 games with a torn Labarum and multiple other injuries along the way. Seeing you frame it like this, maybe it's your emotional response to the situation that won't let you accept that posters like me think Baker pretty much sucked donkey balls for 16 games this year, that he's injured, and that as well as Baker sucking - the TE's are Meh and the WR core is Meh. Those things aren't excuses - they are additional layers of issues for the Browns.
Inside I want Baker to succeed so bad. But I try to be honest.
I respect Quincy's opinion because he is honest in his evaluation.
Baker's case in many ways is unique. Because he came to Cleveland and the whole organization has been a train wreak. The coaches he has played under and now a season of injury.
It is a difficult evaluation when all factors are looked at. That is why I stated a case can be made for many different arguments.
I don't envy Berry.
In the back of my mind I keep hearing a voice say. "Don't give up yet." Because a career can change. Tannehill is a good example.
It's interesting because I've thought this same thing. The funny part is that Tannehill's career was revived because he went to a system that was perfect for his skillset. The system is the same system we run right now.
I don’t care to discuss this topic anymore with you because it seems like you are making excuses when all the information being presented you is somehow wrong.
I know it’s painful to think that Baker might not be the guy. We all care deeply for this team. The QB is the most important part of any NFL team. It is depressing to think that we might not have the guy we thought we did at this time last year. It all stinks.
I don’t care to discuss this topic anymore with you because it seems like you are making excuses when all the information being presented you is somehow wrong.
I know it’s painful to think that Baker might not be the guy. We all care deeply for this team. The QB is the most important part of any NFL team. It is depressing to think that we might not have the guy we thought we did at this time last year. It all stinks.
cfrs15: The second coming of Versatile Dawg.
I know this isn't true because I haven't been suspended 72 times this week.
I'm with you. I watched only the first half of the Steelers game last night. Then off to bed. I'll watch some tonight, then to bed. (getting older, you know, and covid tired). Eh, just disappointed in the Browns year.
Do.you have proof that the Browns would go through another 20 QBs if they moved on.from Mayfield. If you believe in Berry like you have the last 6 GMs then he should have no issues finding A replacement for Baker. You act like Baker has took.this team to multiple AFC Championship games. Baker is a good QB if everything is in.working order. But the Browns need greatness from.the QB position. Good aint good enough anymore. Because the AFC North has 2-QBs ahead of him.
Carr has (24) 4th quarter comebacks and (30) game winning drives. Carr had 6 game winning drives just this year and led his team to the playoffs even with all the franchise issues this year.
I'd take Carr over Baker.
To each his own though.
It'd be interesting to see what the cost would be and the new regime may just want to keep him in the end.
Im a little surprised that people still blindly support Baker. Baker is the reason your team is back to the cellar. He's the reason the championship window closed faster than it opened. He either doesn't work hard enough, isn't good enough, or both. He failed the fans and the organization. He rubbed your faces in his incompetence, and there is still a contingent talking about playing good on drives before drives or how no receivers are open. If he's gone, good riddance.
Im a little surprised that people still blindly support Baker. Baker is the reason your team is back to the cellar. He's the reason the championship window closed faster than it opened. He either doesn't work hard enough, isn't good enough, or both. He failed the fans and the organization. He rubbed your faces in his incompetence, and there is still a contingent talking about playing good on drives before drives or how no receivers are open. If he's gone, good riddance.
He was drafted. It wasnt like one day he woke up and said "Gee, I really want to go play for this 1-31 team"
You really should go root for another team instead of wallowing in misery. Because guess what, Baker will be back next year. And your giant tears will be on full display.
It is gut wrenching. My expectations this year where very high and now I feel like crap.
Football games are like 8 months away.
Between now and games I don't really don't want to hear a thing.
I was hoping to be playing now. I thought we could be good for years to come.
Now I don't know what we will be.
I guess I have moved on and while the season was frustrating and a wasted year because of injury and what the expectations were, life happens and you got to take the punches and move on.
There are several QB's that I would be happy to roll with next year other than Baker. None of them - other than JG because the 49rs drafted Trey Lance - that I think are realistic. Even a guy like Jimmy G who I like - if you talk to a 49ers fan, they will tell you they are winning because of the team and the run game, not because of JG. They are looking forward to having Trey next year ... that might tell us something.
There are a bunch of guys that might be possible - I keep hearing Carr mentioned. I think Baker might have more upside than Carr - and more downside. So I could be okay with a guy like Carr. There isn't (that I can think of now off the top of my head) another realistic candidate that I think is a better option than Baker. That's based on the assumption BM can run the Stefanski offense like he did at the back end of last year.
We have some needs - but the team is in good shape and can be 'fixed' pretty easily in one offseason. It should be an interesting off season.
Im a little surprised that people still blindly support Baker. Baker is the reason your team is back to the cellar. He's the reason the championship window closed faster than it opened. He either doesn't work hard enough, isn't good enough, or both. He failed the fans and the organization. He rubbed your faces in his incompetence, and there is still a contingent talking about playing good on drives before drives or how no receivers are open. If he's gone, good riddance.
OBJ is currently rubbing his face in it.
I can’t believe you are so blind you can’t see you were played by OBJ.
Blame all of Baker's issues on his injury. He may be about the same level of QB as Derek Carr. What if he gets hurt again? We have to worry about him being one of the worst QBs in the league again? Other QBs play through injuries and their play doesn't suffer nearly as much as Baker's did this year (with worse injuries).
I'd take Carr and Cousins over Baker in a second if the price is reasonable (the price probably won't be reasonable). I think at the very least we need to bring in a backup that has the chance to raise our floor. Someone like Marcus Mariota or Teddy Bridgewater (who was with Stefanski in Minnesota). A guy who I'd love to have a shot at, but is probably unavailable, is Gardner Minshew.
Let’s just say that Browns fans will spend the next 9 months agonizing over Baker because they can’t accept the fact that he was hurt in 2021…
Me, I won’t spend a minute thinking about the past. It can’t be changed.
I can accept the fact that he was hurt. I cannot accept the fact that his injury caused him to lose enough confidence to pass up open receivers. And if it did affect his confidence that much then I think that is a huge red flag and probably something that should be taken into consideration when planning for the future.
We have a Colin Cowherd board poster who knows more than John Dorsey and Andrew Berry.
So the best course of action is to pay attention. Then forward on to Andrew Berry so Berry knows to cut Mayfield.
Or, I guess he could contact Mayfield and tell it would be best to retire from the NFL.
That league where unathletic guys make a meager living.
I said I agree. I don't buy all the negative stuff about Baker. My only contention is that I don't think Baker is as athletic as some others at the position.
My only negatives are I question his willingness to be coached and maybe his mental processing ability.
I know AVP made a big deal about his footwork. Last season that didn't look all that great. Maybe the shoulder had much to do with that...time will tell, but baker end up throwing off the back foot much of the time. Again, maybe that was a 1 time thing.
As for processing...he just doesn't. I am not saying the guy is stupid. Maybe the team needs to slow it down for him a little bit. He double clutches a lot. Sometimes he looks to not trust what he is seeing.
Say what you will. Josh Allen was very raw coming into the NFL. It took a lot of time and work before he came close to what he is now. That was the worry in drafting him. That's why he was actually the third QB drafted in 2018. Trying to predict how or if he would develop into a good NFL QB was quite a gamble. The Bills won that roll of the dice. But let's not try and play 20/20 hind sight and pretend it was a logical conclusion at the time.
I agree, but there is a but...part of the deal when drafting players, especially QB's is projectability. You see it in baseball all the time. The problem with football is you draft a kid and they are on the big league team where is baseball they draft a kid and work him up through the minor league system over several years.
I have said I don't think Baker is open to coaching. That doesn't mean he doesn't listen, but I think he picks and chooses a bit too much.
aye chubb get ready next season. cause you, hunt, and d'ernest are definitely gonna be the fall guys. its always someone elses fault.
You're right, we are running out of scapegoats.
It was the OL, but it turns out they were #6 in the NFL this year. And with pass protection had a 67% win rate. Only 2 teams better, both with 68%. Someone pointed out that when Mullens played, he was not sacked at all even though we used both Hance and Hudson that game.
It was also the play calling, but it turns out we had more plays with open receivers than any other team in the NFL.
It was also the defense, though they were #5 in yardage allowed, and #1 in pass coverage. And gave up 16 or fewer points in 9 games, 5 of those divisional games.
I think right now it is analytics. And after that, I think you're right. It will be the run game. It's all that is left to throw under the bus.
I made the same point some time back. Now it is the coach and offensive system when last year the coach and O were the talk of the town.
Just so people don't misunderstand, I don't want to get rid of Baker. It would be foolish to do so at this point, but Baker does need to pick it up.
I think Baker thrives on competition, but he is also thinned skinned. I wouldn't bring in a vet QB to provide that competition. I would draft a QB this year....fairly early...before round 4 as a wake-up call and to provide a back-up in the event we don't, or baker doesn't want to sign with us after next season.
So while I think it foolish to give up on Baker now, I think it equally foolish to think everything is going to be OK and go with the status quo. I don't think Berry can afford another season to play out like this past season, especially if he sits on his thumb this off season.
Do.you have proof that the Browns would go through another 20 QBs if they moved on.from Mayfield. If you believe in Berry like you have the last 6 GMs then he should have no issues finding A replacement for Baker. You act like Baker has took.this team to multiple AFC Championship games. Baker is a good QB if everything is in.working order. But the Browns need greatness from.the QB position. Good aint good enough anymore. Because the AFC North has 2-QBs ahead of him.
Do I have proof - what kind of dumb statement is that - That is what we had prior to Mayfield an the "ASSUMPTION" would be that it would continue that way cause the franchise is just lost with no direction if they go and get rid of our FRANCHISE QB cause of an injury laden season. What I act like is Baker took us to our first Playoff WIN - Took us to beat the Steelers twice at their house in doing so...took us to the first 11win season since 1999. We have a good OL and great RBs but lack in playmakers and have one of the worst WR groups in the NFL.
What I act like is Baker after two weeks had the 3rd best ever completion % in the NFL over 80% then I saw the injury and instantaneously I saw his play go down - all wanted to blame it on Baker then they found out about the injury...then they found out how severe the injury was. But he kept on playing injured and throwing like crap. That plus the fact unlike all these great QBs mentioned he didn't have a Devonte Adams, Andre Hopkins, Wilson had several weapons he could throw the ball up to and have it caught, So does Mahomes, Herbert has Williams, Lamar and Andrews what does Baker have a posession WR in Landry
Do I have proof what kind of stupid question is that. Why has there been 20+ QBs before Baker who couldn't get a winning season or a playoff win. That is my proof cause its not as easy as you think. Its the rarest position in THE NFL QB, You enjoy Weeden as our QB go right ahead and release Baker. All this talk about getting Wilson, Aaron Rodgers unless its a fan growing up as a Browns fan THEY AIN'T COMING HERE!!!! Don't you get it. Soo unless Luck decides on a comeback that is the only guy I would think would come here no matter how much money you with to spend... hey lets get Carr...lol yeah ok after a couple weeks you all would be screaming for his head...lol
But hey lets run Baker out of Cleveland and then you ask hmmm why don't anyone want to play for the Browns. All these good kids will be leaving here if we get rid of Baker they will end up not wanting to play for the Browns...just do my job then when I can get out of here - like Alex Mack - and how many Browns do you see playing for other teams and doing well.
Would you consider Russell Wilson a upgrade over Baker Mayfield Wilson did allude to he wants to explore his options And look at other teams to play for
To me it is about Bakers floor. It can go pretty low.
I doubt there is a QB in the league that doesn't have a damn low floor,,, if injured, as Baker was this past season..
This isn't the season to judge him.
All seasons are open to judging just like every day on the job for any of us is subject to judging. I am not saying we should fire him, but we might not want to run out and give him a raise.
No doubt,, But still, if he was not injured, would he have been able to duplicate the previous year... I like his odds of doing so...
Does anyone here read? Its been posted at least twice by me, and several more times by others, that Russell Wilson has a no-trade clause, and there are only 3 teams he would waive it for - NY Giants, New Orleans Saints, Denver Broncos. For the geographically challenged out there, NONE of those teams are located in Northeast Ohio.
Does anyone here read? Its been posted at least twice by me, and several more times by others, that Russell Wilson has a no-trade clause, and there are only 3 teams he would waive it for - NY Giants, New Orleans Saints, Denver Broncos. For the geographically challenged out there, NONE of those teams are located in Northeast Ohio.
FWIW (not much) I have a high degree of skepticism for that list... and to a lesser degree, the stuff about Wilson wanting to go/stay has been all over the place.
Not to jump on a dying horse with this get rid of Baker BS but if you're going to compare a guy like Carr to Mayfield then you're comparing apples to oranges. Carr has played for coaches that not only play to the QB's skill set but the offense is set up to make him successful with a skilled possession slot receiver in Renfrow, a top-flight TE in Waller, and most of the year a speedy field stretcher in Ruggs. Add into that fact that Carr had 208 more attempts for 1,800 plus yards clearly shows a significant difference in the scheme being played. Game winning drives and/or 2-minute drills don't happen for QB's just because they have the talent. They occur because the team constantly works on it developing not only the QB skills in the drills but also the receiver's skills in the drill. You can't expect your QB/line/receiver group to suddenly turn it on once every 5th or 6th game when you are not working on the drill and it not being a focus of your offensive game plan every week. Taking away 200-300 attempts a year from your QB and receiver's damages their chemistry. Without a good chemistry, positive results on the field are hard to come by and eliminating 200-300 attempts between them is counterproductive.
I will say it again, Carr or for that fact any top tier QB, is not going to come to Cleveland to throw 200-300 less attempts per year. Not going to happen, no way no how.
On another point, did anyone see the interview with the "GOAT" Tom Brady? I found it extremely interesting that he said he knows who he's going to throw the ball to before the snap. That going through the progressions that you hear about only creates issues with young QB's. He said that the defensive set and defensive adjustments from the offensive motion tells him where to throw before the snap. The chemistry he has with his receivers gives him that confidence to just throw it knowing they will be there. Interesting that the "Goat" doesn't even use the one weakness that many on this forum says Baker must improve at doing. Hmmmm.......
For you to believe what you're saying, it would mean that PFF has a different standard for other teams than it does the Browns. That somehow what an open WR means for us is different than what an open WR means for other teams. And no, you can not possibly watch "all Wr's and their routes" while at a game. And no, it's rare when the TV coverage EVER shows the routes of all WR's on a given play. Those are simply falsehoods.
What an open WR is in the NFL is not the same as it is in college. The windows are smaller and when you are a starting QB in the NFL you are expected to be able to hit WR's in those small windows. You're simply coming up with excuses to accept the facts you like and dismiss the facts you don't.
I can’t believe you are so blind you can’t see you were played by OBJ.
Typical response from you. When Baker does well you never give anyone else any credit for it and talk only about how "Baker id great!" When Baker does poorly you point the finger at everyone but Baker.
It's that heads I win tails you lose game you've been playing ever since you followed Baker here.
All on has to do is look at how well an actual top level QB knows how to use OBJ. No wonder he wanted out of town. Staying here would have been a career killer for OBJ. It almost was. He just got out in the nick of time.
For you to believe what you're saying, it would mean that PFF has a different standard for other teams than it does the Browns. .
Once again - not what I said, not what I believe. It is perfectly reasonable to question the validity of a report and what criteria it is based on, especially given what we have witnessed during games - it has zero to do with thinking the Browns were treated differently than other teams in the report. Taht would be you just making up a random argument that I didn't make.
Then can you explain how someone like PFF could set a standard of what they call "an open WR" that would cause the Browns to be shown as having the 2nd most WR's on pass plays out of 32 NFL teams? And once again, watching or being at a game does not give you a full view and the ability to see all WR's at the same time. Only film study can show that.
I've expressed my opinion. I've been more than patient considering you constantly put words I never said in my mouth. Move along. It's okay if you don't agree with me. I don't mind, maybe that's something you might learn to do?
Let's be perfectly clear on this OBJ stuff. He asked for a trade in the off season even after the Browns went 11-5 and had 2 playoff games. Baker was a top 5 rated QB at the time so to blame that on Mayfield is just plain BS from you guys that want to change QB's every single time he has a down game. OBJ was injured at the end of 2020 and couldn't get himself ready for the 2021 season in time but blaming it on Baker was just a scapegoat thing in 2021 because he was looking for the trade way before Mayfield's injury and him supposedly not getting the ball. On this same forum there was no less than a 100-posts stating how much better the team played without OBJ on the field. You don't think OBJ wasn't watching as the scheme went more and more away from his skill set during the team's march to the playoffs? So now the question is why was OBJ asking for a trade as early as May 2021 from a team freshly off a playoff appearance and win with a QB playing at a top 5 level? Because OBJ seen the writing on the wall that with all the 2 TE sets, 3 TE sets, and with the huge reduction in pass attempts it was going to drastically reduce his targets. I wouldn't be one bit surprised if it were known that OBJ had multiple conversations with Diggs during the off season about Stefanski's offensive scheme.
Bottomline is before you Mayfield haters start blaming Baker for OBJ's departure and some twitter post from his Dad about Baker not throwing to an open OBJ - that prima donna was asking for a trade at the time the Browns were sitting on top of the world with a top 5 QB and super high expectations for the next season. OBJ wanted out of Cleveland because he wasn't going to be the focal point but the Browns wouldn't budge until he attacked the QB on social media through his Dad. You don't think that disgruntled OBJ didn't have an effect on the team, locker room, or overall chemistry of the team? What about the chemistry with the other WR's that were thrust into playing with Landry being injured and OBJ showing his azz? You don't think that had something to do with the chemistry of the teams passing game? If not, then you don't know football.
I'm telling you the word is out on Cleveland and Stefanski's offensive scheme. Just because you hate Baker doesn't make him the fall guy for everything happening especially when a lot of these things have nothing to do with Baker and he had a serious injury. FA is absolutely going to be very difficult without some type of change and since it's been over a week already, I'm very skeptical that there is any real change coming and could/should be the nail in the coffin of Stefanski and Berry with another season like 2021 no matter how Baker plays.
Let's be perfectly clear on this OBJ stuff. He asked for a trade in the off season even after the Browns went 11-5 and had 2 playoff games. Baker was a top 5 rated QB at the time so to blame that on Mayfield is just plain BS
This is true. And it has been widely reported that OBJ never wanted to be here and was looking to get out of town from the time he arrived.
Funny isn't it - Mary K is universally despised and mocked for being clueless and yet she writes and 1 story without any substance to back it up - that Baker wants out. All the Baker detractors latch on to that and perpetuate it as if fact. Multiple ongoing souces have reported on OBJ wanting out from the moment he arrived and it all gets dismissed.
Not to jump on a dying horse with this get rid of Baker BS but if you're going to compare a guy like Carr to Mayfield then you're comparing apples to oranges.
When Berry is evaluating what is best for the Browns moving forward he's doing so with the mindset of who is the better QB, not "well, it's really not fair to compare the two."
There is a lot at stake, including possibly their (Berry and Stefanski) jobs with Haslam's history of firing people. Berry has big decisions ahead, but it is not only Berry's job, but he also has a responsibility to the rest of the locker room to explore all options on how to improve the team.
He said as much in his press conference the other week. On if it is his job to evaluate every opportunity to potentially upgrade the QB position no matter what others may feel about the situation and if there is risk associated with that: “Probably the simple answer to the question is my job is to assemble the best team possible and make sure that we are in the position to compete consistently for the division, to be in the playoffs and ultimately win a championship. That is something that we will strive to do every year.”
On if the Browns feel a need to bring in another QB to push Mayfield:
“I have mentioned this before in terms of how we look at the offseason, we do not go into it and say, ‘Hey, we are just going to target certain positions.’ We scout and look at player availability as if we have an expansion team so the way we go about adding competition or improving the talent base and the roster is largely, maybe not wholly, but largely independent of who is currently on the team.”
Does anyone here read? Its been posted at least twice by me, and several more times by others, that Russell Wilson has a no-trade clause, and there are only 3 teams he would waive it for - NY Giants, New Orleans Saints, Denver Broncos. For the geographically challenged out there, NONE of those teams are located in Northeast Ohio.
There's that and there's also the fact that Seattle controls Wilson for two more years. They don't have to move him at all.
My opinion, Rodgers is the QB for Green Bay next year and Wilson is the QB for Seattle next year.
Bakers biggest issue is that he cant process his 2nd and 3rd reads Fast enough when his 1st read taken away Defenses have adjusted to Baker. Baker is never ahead of the defense. The defense has him figured Out presnap.
Along with that Berry is evaluating the cost to get the player that may be an upgrade versus just keeping Mayfield. For example, if it takes a first round pick to get Derek Carr (it would likely cost more) what is more helpful to the team Carr with no first round pick or Baker with the first round pick. There are a bunch of layers to the QB decision. I think the most likely outcome is Baker returning with a QB backup that can unseat him if he is terrible again.
The cost to acquire will certainly be a strong consideration. The cost of not making the playoffs next year and laying another egg....yikes!
Haslam's finger seems to be less itchy now that his wife has more influence. My guess is that Berry and Stefanski have another year with Baker to figure things out. Unless things go completely sideways I'd guess they at least make it through 2023 (and the shot to have their own QB if Baker doesn't work out).
One thing is for sure, I am glad to have Berry, DePodesta, and Stefanski figuring this out instead of someone like Gettleman and Joe Judge.
I don't know what OBJ was doing, I know there has been a lot of speculation and second guessing and finger pointing. All I know is what he said, which was he wanted to be here, he bought an orange Rolls Royce, he just wanted to play for a team that could win, he was willing to do whatever it takes to win, etc.
Then coming off last year where we went 11-5 and won a playoff game and had the highest expectations for this year coming into the season, he said he wanted traded. That, to me, doesn't sound like a guy who just wants to win... something else was going on.
He's gone to LA, he is allegedly happy as can be and glad to be a part of that organization.. and the only thing that has changed about his part in the offense is that he has been in the endzone more times... He has 6 TDs in 9 games, where he had 0 TDs in 6 games here... other than that his per game stats are...
Targets CLE 5.7 LA 5.8 Receptions CLE 2.8 LA 3.4 Yards CLE 38.7 LA 39.9 Yards per target CLE 6.5 LA 6.7 Rushes CLE .3 LA 0 Rushing Yards CLE 2.3 LA 0
I've also already posted all of Staffords stats that show the Rams offense isn't any more effective with him than the were without him, in fact they regressed in most statistical categories... so what does it all mean? I have no idea.
Actually what happened is the Rams agreed to the deal with OBJ and their WR Robert Woods tore his ACL the very next day. OBJ filled in the role of Woods and they pretty much didn't miss a beat. In a totally new offense that he had never played in OBJ has filled in nicely.
Actually what happened is the Rams agreed to the deal with OBJ and their WR Robert Woods tore his ACL the very next day. OBJ filled in the role of Woods and they pretty much didn't miss a beat. In a totally new offense that he had never played in OBJ has filled in nicely.
Point is, he's doing about the same thing there that he was doing here...
I don't know what OBJ was doing, I know there has been a lot of speculation and second guessing and finger pointing. All I know is what he said, which was he wanted to be here, he bought an orange Rolls Royce, he just wanted to play for a team that could win, he was willing to do whatever it takes to win, etc.
Then coming off last year where we went 11-5 and won a playoff game and had the highest expectations for this year coming into the season, he said he wanted traded. That, to me, doesn't sound like a guy who just wants to win... something else was going on.
He's gone to LA, he is allegedly happy as can be and glad to be a part of that organization.. and the only thing that has changed about his part in the offense is that he has been in the endzone more times... He has 6 TDs in 9 games, where he had 0 TDs in 6 games here... other than that his per game stats are...
Targets CLE 5.7 LA 5.8 Receptions CLE 2.8 LA 3.4 Yards CLE 38.7 LA 39.9 Yards per target CLE 6.5 LA 6.7 Rushes CLE .3 LA 0 Rushing Yards CLE 2.3 LA 0
I've also already posted all of Staffords stats that show the Rams offense isn't any more effective with him than the were without him, in fact they regressed in most statistical categories... so what does it all mean? I have no idea.
The biggest difference with OBJ's stats in CLE and LA are the TDs, which has been highlighted quite often, everywhere, post-trade. Many NFL stats have a high variance year-to-year, TDs are one of them but play-calling plays a role as well. I don't have the info in front of me, but compared to LA, I'm guessing we ran the ball more and targeted the TE position more as well. If true, I think that hurts OBJ's numbers in LA if we're comparing. That said....
Here are the plays where Odell caught a TD since being traded to LA:
4 yards 7 yards 7 yards 2 yards 1 yard 54 yards
To me, this seems too easy. He has one big TD catch. Outside of the 54 yarder, I'd think he was a TE or a RB that can catch out of the backfield.
And don't get me wrong, OBJ was the best WR we had. I always chuckled when people said Landry was our #1. No.....a healthy, team-invested OBJ was clearly our best WR by a long shot.....the problem is we never had that from the jump. And his numbers, outside of his TDs, don't give me much pause and wish we kept him. He never wanted to be here and he wasn't worth $15M/ per.
Along with that Berry is evaluating the cost to get the player that may be an upgrade versus just keeping Mayfield. For example, if it takes a first round pick to get Derek Carr (it would likely cost more) what is more helpful to the team Carr with no first round pick or Baker with the first round pick. There are a bunch of layers to the QB decision. I think the most likely outcome is Baker returning with a QB backup that can unseat him if he is terrible again.
This - exactly. Whether it's Carr, Wilson, Watson, Jimmy G or Huntley - whoever ... the FO and Berry will do their homework and review cost/benefit analysis of all their realistic options. I also agree we need to replace Keenum, and someone young and half decent would clearly be good. It's petty simple.
Actually what happened is the Rams agreed to the deal with OBJ and their WR Robert Woods tore his ACL the very next day. OBJ filled in the role of Woods and they pretty much didn't miss a beat. In a totally new offense that he had never played in OBJ has filled in nicely.
Point is, he's doing about the same thing there that he was doing here...
The point is to clearly create a talking point that you didn't make and argue with it.
And he is notcbetter than baker abd will cost an arm and a leg to get him.
It is interesting that a lot of the Baker detractors who are convinced it is time to move on no matter what - and that virtually every QB in the NFL is better than Baker ... most of them talk about stats and 4th Q wins and driving the team to success and strapping the team on his back etc. And yet someone like Carr who has been in the NFL for 8 years, gets tons of love and has less play off wins then Baker. Baker has the same number of play off wins as Dak I believe. Some things just don't seem consistent. And as for quality of team? Baker joined a 1-31 team and got us to 7 wins as a rookie. He had a sophomore slump and play off win his next year - this year he was hurt for 16 games. I mean it is what it is - I am not saying Baker is better than Dak ... but the metrics that are used to bash Baker are suddenly not applicable when we look at QB's the Baker detractors like - and many of them, like Dak, have played on better teams than the Browns.
Dak is clearly a better QB than Baker. Just watch the games.
I agree with you on Carr. I'm not a Carr fan. He is a bad QB who inexplicably has a number of 4th quarter comebacks. I can't wrap my head around that. When I watch him I see another Baker/JimmyG/Cousins. They are basically all the same QB, with Baker being the worst of the bunch.
Having said that it would be completely deflating to sign one of those other three knowing basically it doesn't really give you a chance to compete. I honestly would rather run it back with Baker on the very seldom chance he can turn the page. He's the youngest of the three.
The Browns are really in no man's land. They are almost stuck with Baker.
even myself thinking out loud that Ski put Baker in a bad way so he can get him out of town. The kid without injuries OBJ's dad or not he would play great football for us. I shake my head at you guys for thinking about getting rid of Baker. If he doesn't give up and plays injured then he should play like a pro bowl QB. I cannot believe how much some of you hate Baker oh that's right he plant the OK flag insulting the Buckeye nation. 