DawgTalkers.net
Posted By: Versatile Dog Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 02:27 PM
Another poster brought up Watson's ranking in The Bake Show thread. I've actually tried to rank the qbs before but would become frustrated because it is very hard to do. For example, who should be higher between Burrow and Herbert? I do think there are tiers of QBs that make things a bit more clear. I also think that current rankings and "starting a team with..." need to be differentiated. I'll take a stab at the top to maybe middle tiers. I will also include last year's PFF ranking where applicable and put them in parentheses after the individual's name.

ELITE: I consider elite QBs as guys who can elevate their teammates to become better players. These are guys who can perform at a high level in the clutch. They can make plays when the play call is not very good and/or when the defensive play call is great. They can turn disasters into miracles. They pick up first downs when their team is behind the chain and in crucial moments. They may have bad moments and a few bad games, but you know you have a chance to win each and every week w/that guy behind center.

Tom Brady [PFF #2]; Aaron Rodgers [#5]; Joe Burrow [#1]; Justin Herbert [#4]; Josh Allen [#3]; Deshawn Watson [NA]; Patrick Mahomes [#11]. That is seven guys that I consider elite. I don't have them in any particular order. I will say a few words about each.

Brady: He can never receive enough credit for how he elevates the play of his teammates. The Bucs were 7 and 9 before he got there. They won the Super Bowl. He is the ultimate competitor and he elevates the entire culture of his organization.

Rodgers: He's the most talented qb I have ever seen. He has a gift to perfectly place the ball. He can make every throw from any angle. He has been clutch in the past, but these last two playoff runs were disappointing. Also, I am not a fan of his drama. But, he's just so talented and accomplished so much that he can't be omitted from the list.

Allen: He is like the perfect qb from a physical perspective. He's big. He's strong. His arm strength is probably the best in the league. He is also tough. He's worked very hard on his game and his teammates love him. That performance against KC in the playoffs was maybe the best performance I have ever witnessed by a qb.

Burrow: He improved his arm strength during the off-season last year. This guy is a gamer. He played w/great skill guys, but his OL sucked. He has the ability to make big plays when things break down or not going well. I think he is the second best leader of any qb in the league, only trailing Brady. I worry about Joe getting injured a lot.

Herbert: Another guy w/great measurables and a huge arm. He is also a much better athlete and runner than some give him credit for. I worry that he might be hampered by having such a clueless head coach.

Watson: Great leader and competitor. Can beat you w/his arm and legs. Had one of the greatest seasons ever recorded despite playing in horrific conditions. He is excellent at making key plays when things break down. It's deflating for a defense when you have a team backed up at 3rd and 12, get a big pass rush, cover the receivers and then have a QB make a miraculous play w/either his arm or legs to get the first down. I am concerned that the local fans and media are going to make his life miserable.

Mahomes: He's right there w/Rodgers in making unreal throws from all platforms. Maybe even more-so. He's like a Harlem Globetrotter on the football field. A magician. Don't blitz this guy. He will make you pay. He's another guy that picks up first downs when everything is stacked against him. I do think his fundamentals are poor and they need to improve and his second half performance against the Bengals in the playoffs left a lot to be desired. But, he's a great young man and he will work to get better.

I'll be back w/more. I will rank the guys if I was starting a team. For example, Brady and Rodgers would not be on that list due to their advanced age. I will also do the next tier of guys. I would love to hear what you guys think about this topic.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 03:06 PM
Speaking for myself I am moving away from the term "elite." The reason is because what I heard from Dan Orlovsky.

He believes that quarterbacks should be categorized as follows:

1) Quarterbacks you win because of.

2) Quarterbacks you can win with

3) Quarterbacks you can with in spite of

4) Quarterbacks you can not win with

That way of looking quarterbacks makes sense to me.

Forgeting age and future. Starting a game played today. Aaron Rodgers IMO stands alone. He is the best. The rest can be stacked in some order that could be argued.

Category One: Rodgers, Brady, Mahomes, Watson, Allen, Wilson, Burrow, Lamar, Herbert

Category Two: Carr, Ryan, Tannehill, Dak, Cousins, Stafford(almost category One), Murray, Baker, Jimmy G, Matt Jones

Category Three: Jameis, Mariota, Goff, Hurts, Tua, Trubisky

Category Four: Darnold, Jones, Wentz, Lock

Incomplete grades for: Lawrence, Fields, Trey Lance, Zach Wilson
Posted By: Rishuz Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 03:17 PM
I agree with your list except for these two -

Burrow - he is the most overrated player I can remember in the last thirty years, maybe longer.

Watson - I want to see more before he gets put into the elite category. Looking forward to close games to see if he can put the team on his shoulders and deliver wins.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by Rishuz
I agree with your list except for these two -

Burrow - he is the most overrated player I can remember in the last thirty years, maybe longer.

Watson - I want to see more before he gets put into the elite category. Looking forward to close games to see if he can put the team on his shoulders and deliver wins.

I never understood the disdain for Burrow, but that's okay. I do get what you are saying about Watson. I debated on whether or not to put him in the "elite" category. He's harder to evaluate due to just how crappy the situation was w/the Texans' organization. Not sure if you read that article about him that I posted in bonefish's thread about Watson on the field, but he might have had the greatest year of any qb ever and he did it on one of the worst teams ever assembled. I would agree w/you that he needs to prove it on the field this year.
Posted By: Rishuz Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 03:38 PM
I think I'm the only one with a less than positive outlook on Burrow. I certainly feel on an island on that one. I keep watching him and waiting to be impressed. And I'm just not there yet. I think so many things went right for the Bengals last year...health, breaks, draft picks performing, etc. I don't see that continuing. If he plays well next year and leads the Bengals back to the playoffs, I'll reassess. Right now, they are my favorite playoff team to not make it back to the playoffs next year.

I mean do this ... watch Allen's and Herbert's best games. Then watch Burrow's best game. Different stratospheres to me. Two teams win because of their QB. One team wins with their QB. And I was a late adopter to Herbert. Thought he stunk in college and had some rookie magic similar to Baker. After last season and that game against the Raiders, I can no longer deny how good he is. He has no weaknesses.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 03:43 PM
Physically speaking, I agree w/your takes. But, there is more to the game than that. Look at Brady. I'd also say you need to consider what Burrow does in the big moments. Guy made a ton of clutch plays. Another thing to contemplate is how different the Bengals were when Burrow wasn't playing. My biggest concern w/Burrow is that he is going to be injured again. He gets sacked a lot and he goes down awkwardly. I always worry about his knees when he falls. I do agree w/you that the Bengals could very well miss the playoffs this upcoming year. Baltimore won't have so many injuries and we've upgraded at qb.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 03:45 PM
Btw---------good conversation. Ranking QBs is tough and can be very subjective. It's going to get tougher as we move through the tiers.
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by Rishuz
I think I'm the only one with a less than positive outlook on Burrow. I certainly feel on an island on that one. I keep watching him and waiting to be impressed. And I'm just not there yet. I think so many things went right for the Bengals last year...health, breaks, draft picks performing, etc. I don't see that continuing. If he plays well next year and leads the Bengals back to the playoffs, I'll reassess. Right now, they are my favorite playoff team to not make it back to the playoffs next year.

I mean do this ... watch Allen's and Herbert's best games. Then watch Burrow's best game. Different stratospheres to me. Two teams win because of their QB. One team wins with their QB. And I was a late adopter to Herbert. Thought he stunk in college and had some rookie magic similar to Baker. After last season and that game against the Raiders, I can no longer deny how good he is. He has no weaknesses.

You are not alone in your opinion of Burrow. I've been bagging on his arm "strength" since his draft. Soooooo...overrated.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 04:15 PM
I'm holding out on my opinion of Burrow. Sometimes NFL defenses figure out how to minimize what a QB's skill set is and sometimes they don't. If they don't Burrow will be a great QB. But for me the jury is still out.
Posted By: cfrs15 Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 04:15 PM
I retired from QB rankings.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 04:33 PM
My second tier of QBs are guys that are really good and lift up their teammates. They can lead teams to wins and elevate those around them. They might have a hole or two in their repertoires that drop them just below elite.

Tier Two: Guys who elevate their teams:

R. Wilson [PFF rank #18]; M. Stafford [#7]; D. Prescott [#10]; Lamar [#23]; D. Carr [#13].

A few words about each.

Wilson: This guy makes a ton of plays from nothing. He can be very good in the clutch and deliver miracle plays when things are looking dire. However, he is not very good in the pocket. He's very short and struggles from the pocket. He often gets too deep in the pocket and that leads to sacks that are not really on the OL. I am not saying his OL was good, but he does drift out of the pocket. Teams game plan to keep him in the pocket, but he is tough to contain. One thing I really like is how he keeps his eyes downfield when scrambling.

Prescott: Very solid guy who has a nice combination of arm talent, size, and athleticism. Very sound guy in the locker room. I think he comes up short in crunch time. Folks can blame coaching all they want, but Dak didn't uplift the team in the big moments.

Stafford: I considered putting him in the elite level. I think he is a guy who represents what can happen to a team when they elevate the QB position. The Rams always were good, but Goff is not an elevator. They gave up a ton for Stafford and he got them over the hump. I don't like how many dumb throws and decisions he makes, though. That kept him out of the elite category.

Lamar: He is such an outlier. I can honestly say that no single player means more to his team than Lamar. He carries that team. And he does it differently than all the other top qbs. I kept him out of the elite tier because while he is great, he is still not an accomplished passer of the football. I can see why others would consider him elite, though.

Carr: I struggled on whether to put him in this second tier or the third tier. I give him props for performing well at the end of games. I give mad props for being a great leader during the Gruden debacle and the Ruggs tragedy. That means a lot. However, I think he holds the ball way too long and that kills the OL. He also makes some really terrible decisions at times.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish
Speaking for myself I am moving away from the term "elite." The reason is because what I heard from Dan Orlovsky.

He believes that quarterbacks should be categorized as follows:

1) Quarterbacks you win because of.

2) Quarterbacks you can win with

3) Quarterbacks you can with in spite of

4) Quarterbacks you can not win with

That way of looking quarterbacks makes sense to me.

Forgetting age and future. Starting a game played today. Aaron Rodgers IMO stands alone. He is the best. The rest can be stacked in some order that could be argued.

Category One: Rodgers, Brady, Mahomes, Watson, Allen, Wilson, Burrow, Lamar, Herbert

Category Two: Carr, Ryan, Tannehill, Dak, Cousins, Stafford(almost category One), Murray, Baker, Jimmy G, Matt Jones

Category Three: Jameis, Mariota, Goff, Hurts, Tua, Trubisky

Category Four: Darnold, Jones, Wentz, Lock

Incomplete grades for: Lawrence, Fields, Trey Lance, Zach Wilson

I like the concept and the rankings. Watson, as others have said, I want to see play before putting him the same company as Mahomes, Brady, Rodgers etc. . . . Some QB's you almost want a half way category like Stafford - Dak is another who can win you games but maybe not consistently. Matt Jones is one that might need to be looked at in the opposite direction - I think he is a little over rated in that group, I am not sold on him at all. And another that probably has a ? at the moment is Russel Wilson. 3 years ago I would have said top 3 QB in the NFL, injury and some struggles and I need to see him play a bit for the Colts before putting him back up in that top bracket.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 06:36 PM
I know you mean Wilson with Denver not the Colts.

IMO Wilson is a HOF'er. He was on a bad team last year and played hurt.

He will go back to being Russell Wilson. I don't know the Denver team really well. Hackett the head coach I don't a thing about.

So hard to say for me how the Broncos will do.

Matt Jones I probably should put into incomplete. However, I thought he played well as a rookie.

Some guys may play their way up or down. Who knows. Carr has a bunch of talent around him this year. They could be a really good team. The offense has some good players. Josh Daniels is probably ready for this second chance.

I know most write Trubisky off. My thoughts on him are. He was over drafted. Thrown into a starters role before ready. And while a starter not supported or well coached.

The question is he better than Ben was last year? My guess is - yes. The Steelers won 9 games with Ben as a diminished player. If the Steelers place third in 2022. Somebody from the other teams are in big trouble.

Posted By: THROW LONG Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by cfrs15
I retired from Qb rankings.

Not Surprising, one cannot easily find a majority opinion crowd to stand with and use as a shield in arguments to avoid having to stand alone on ones' own arguments. ( because there's no consensous.)

Vers: We can rank NFL quarterbacks, ( I made a post listing a bunch in order in early 2021, in a thread noone else seemed to want to. ) But Maybe it's about ranking the NFL teams, because, well you know.

... ... ... got pulled away from the reply. ...

We can choose who we believe is the better Qb by simply watching them play, and stick to our beliefs, until over time evidence may force us to admit the truth is different,
I think it was easy to see Herbert was better than Burrow, because, just watch em, but .. well, See! there's a thing,
a thing in football where, you have to have an eye, we can develop an eye,
( and I'm sure mathmaticians' blah blah, and ... blah blah have tried to use things to put numbers to it, or other measurings, but there is trusting your eye, because you see, There is, maybe a whole football game that gets played, maybe 5 games, and, in those 5 games,
there could be as few as 3 or 4 plays,
or 3 or 4 (bits of a play) where it really comes down to seeing the player(s) make(ing) a() decision(s)
AGAINST the ultimate level of competition For a split second,
like a fight for a rebound or a last second shot in the NBA, (NO! Rather, moreso, beating really good defense 1 on 1 in ball handling)
or
how a title boxing fight can come down to 3 or 4 flurries of combinations to where it's best vs. best where you really see the best players abilities show up for an instant,

and then, a whole group of the rest of the 5 games of football can be mainly irrelevant where the lesser talented players can look as good or better than the ones whom your eye can tell you, (that guy!) he is the better one.

( A lot like when people would put down yards gotten in garbage time. ) But not exactly, just "like" that.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 07:46 PM
Before I give my opinion on the next tier of QBs, I am going to rank the QBs I would want to start a franchise with. Some of the criteria I will be using are things like potential, past accomplishments, physical attributes, skill set, leadership, the ability to elevate others, etc.

Ranking QBs who I would want to start a franchise with.

In order:

1. Josh Allen. He has every physical attribute that talent evaluators drool over. He has worked hard to improve his game. He is clutch in big moments. His teammates love him. He is able to escape the pass rush and/or stand in there and deliver strikes when he knows he's going to get jacked up. My concern is that he does put his body at risk a lot. I know he is big and strong, but those hits have to take a toll on one's body. If I were coaching him, I would encourage him to back off on playing each play like it's your last. It's an admirable trait, but he is needed long-term.

2. Justin Herbert: Has similar physical gifts to Allen. Can deliver in crunch time. He sometimes is adversely affected when teams get a good pass rush going. However, he has this ability to keep slinging it and his ability to be such a good passer of the football in terms of arm strength, accuracy, anticipation, finding the right receiver to throw to, etc is exceptional. My biggest worry for him is that his HC is a dolt and is making things more about himself than his team.

3. Patrick Mahomes: This was a tough one. He is the most accomplished of all the guys I am putting on my list. His arm talent is second to none in regards to all the throwing platforms, creativity, and hitting guys in stride. I think he is confident but humble in that he believes in himself but always talks about the areas he needs to improve upon. He takes responsibility. Fans and media members identify w/him and he will sell tickets. My concern w/him is that I am old school in that I like QBs w/sound mechanics. Mahomes lower body mechanics are really bad. He often gets away w/it, but it is a concern.

4. Joe Burrow. I almost put him 3rd. I think his leadership abilities are only second to Brady's. I love how he comes through in clutch moments. It's been documented on how he improved his arm strength during the off-season between years one and two. It showed. He throws a nice deep ball and often fired shots into tight windows. I think he is a very tough guy and shines in the clutch and on the biggest stage. I know his teammates believe in him. My biggest concern is that his physical traits are not like Allen's or Herberts and that his toughness might lead to more injuries. He has taken too many shots. I do think he falls in awkward positions and I always worry about future injuries w/him.

5. Deshawn Watson. He is a great leader. He thrives in big moments. His college coach compared him to Michael Jordan. He can beat you w/his arm, legs, and brain. He is much stronger than what his frame suggests. He runs through guys at times. I think he has done more w/less than almost anyone. His character was impeccable until recently. Everone talked about him like he was such a great guy and how he had great integrity. That leads me to my next point. My concern is two-fold in that I don't know if the claims against him are true or not. But, if they are true........I yi yi yi. Also, I think a significant percentage of the local fans and media are going to be incredibly hard on him. That's a lot to carry around even if you are innocent. I almost left him off the list, but 8 teams were willing to give up a ton for him and pay him huge money. Four teams agreed to Houston's trade demands, which were a lot. Thus, I deduced that they know more about just what his value is.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 08:15 PM
Before we give excuses for the crappy Houston situation, let's not ignore the fact that in 2015 and 2016 the Texans were AFC South Champs both years. Watson didn't come to a crappy team - he was drafted by a 2-time division winner.

Watson's first year with Houston they went from 2-time Division Champs to a 4-12 last place finish. In 2018, the Texans rebounded to again hold the top spot as Division winners. In 2019, they again won the division with Watson at the helm. In 2020, the Texans reverted back to a 4-12 record and a 3rd place finish. The Texans had stability at the Head Coach position because the Texans had the same head coach from 2014 until part of the way through 2020. During that time, their coach had 4 AFC South Championships and 6 playoff games. To say that Watson was exposed to a crappy organization or in horrific conditions is hogwash - Mayfield would have been so lucky to have played for a single head coach who led his organization to 4 playoff appearances in 6 years. Wow, that was so horrific for Watson. Mayfield didn't have an once of that stability or the players and weapons that Watson walked into the NFL to support him.

Watson appears to be an upgrade and I don't have an issue with the upgrade but do with the baggage he's bringing and how it was handled. However, trying to paint Watson as some type of martyr because he played with Houston is just plain not the truth.

I'm not so hopped up to rate all the QB's because things happen to make those rankings dependent on other factors. In most cases, injuries - player performance - coaching - and scheduling have bearings on whether a QB falls within one category or another. Ranking a player as elite after 1-2 years of performance is questionable at best. I would also think that a QB drafted by a crappy team and goes 30-30 in his first 4-years (1 playing injured) would receive higher consideration than a player drafted by a 2-time Division winner and playoff team that goes 28-25 in 4-years. Like I said, not all QB's are dealing with the same variables. It's definitely harder to get 12 wins when you're starting with a base of 1-31 than it is to get to 12 wins when your already at a 9-win base.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 09:14 PM
All are fine young quarterbacks capable of leading a franchise.

Like any quarterback they also will be dependent upon the team around them for success. All of them have the tools to be successful.

They are a little different to a degree. That is expected.

Allen is built to play. I loved him when he was coming into the league. But he was for sure a big hit or big miss guy. Physical stud. But he did plenty wrong and had to learn a lot. To his credit he did learn. His third year was a huge turn around. His game against the Chiefs in the playoffs was spellbinding.

Herbert and Burrow are classic pocket guys with enough leg. Both are excellent throwers. I have seen more of Burrow than Herbert. Herbert can flat spin it. He throws a great ball.

I love Burrow. I like him as a leader. The first time I heard him talk. I liked him. He plays to win. He is fearless. When a big play is needed. He makes the play. He may not be as physically gifted as the others. It does not matter. He has it between the ears and he is accurate.

Mahomes is a different cat. I saw that when he was coming into the draft and I turned on his college tape. You can't watch him and judge him like others. He does lots of things wrong. But you look up and damn it worked. No, no, no, no don't do that - damn. You don't coach young quarterbacks to play like Mahomes. Only Mahomes can do what he does and get away with it. "When it is grim be the Grim Reaper." You are not suppose to throw across your body. You don't throw across the field going the other way.

Deshaun Watson. I refuse to get into "off the field." People can view that as they see fit. On the field he is an excellent player. In his career at college and in the NFL he can take over a game. He has done that often. He will do whatever it takes to win. He will sacrifice his body to make a winning play.
He plays a complete game. He can play from the pocket on platform and deliver. He can move and throw. He makes good decisions. He is accurate.
The one true ability he has that stands out is his will to win. He plays his best when it counts the most.

*It remains to be seen how he handles what now surrounds him. There is no way to determine if it will affect his play on the field.

For myself I can separate how feel about an athlete personally and how I view their performance on a field of play. I love boxing. Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist and probably a rotten human being. I still liked watching him fight.

I love jazz music. Miles Davis is one of my all time favorite musicians. He was a notorious woman beater. A truly mean rotten person.
But when I turn on "Kind of Blue." I hear only music that takes me to another world.
Posted By: SuperBrown Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 09:43 PM
1. Joe Namath
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 10:06 PM
I am a Burrows fan - I was when he came out and he's not done anything to make me a non-believer. I rate his accuracy and processing speed very highly.

Herbert is more in flux and I have yet to see enough of him to be sure how and where he fits.... I've seen him play lights out - and I have seen him make plays that leave you scratching your head. Sometimes in the same game. I am 100% not ready to anoint him yet. You only have to look at Wentz's fall from grace to realize that 2 seasons is way too soon to determine the career path of a QB.
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 10:31 PM
j/c

Burrow's most clutch play is to either throw it 2 yards behind the LOS and let his stud play-makers make a play...OR...chuck it up ala Kyler Murray and let one of his stud play-makers run under the punt throw.

When he throws outside the hashmarks, he's a pick waiting to happen. His (3) WRs were all better than any one guy we threw out there last year...yet we still beat him. That "awful" OLine he played behind sported the league's 3rd best rusher.

Sooooooo...overrated.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 10:43 PM
Yep... A Baker led Browns team never lost to him. He benefitted from his catching playmakers like Baker never did. You never even mentioned the TE position where Uzomah or whatever his name is was streets ahead of any Browns TE.

I still like Burrows and think he's very good.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 10:53 PM
This is not a Baker Mayfield thread. I mean, you can rank him as an elite qb if you like and I won't say a word. But please, this is intended to be a fun thread where we talk football w/out all the other BS. You can talk about poor Baker on the Baker thread. Hell, in that thread and the Super Bowl contenders thread, you talked about Watson.

Quote
Before we give excuses for the crappy Houston situation, let's not ignore the fact that in 2015 and 2016 the Texans were AFC South Champs both years. Watson didn't come to a crappy team - he was drafted by a 2-time division winner.

Watson's first year with Houston they went from 2-time Division Champs to a 4-12 last place finish.

This is wildly deceiving. I noticed you doing that when I wasn't posting on the board when you continually used partial facts and did not tell the entire story when you were bashing Stefanski. I am not sure if it is accidental, but in regards to trying to be accurate, I'm going to post an excerpt that sheds some light on your claim about Watson's rookie year and how they went 4 and 12.

Quote
Deshaun Watson done for season after suffering torn ACL in Texans practice
The Rookie of the Year favorite suffered an ACL tear at practice on Thursday, Jason La Canfora confirms

John Breech

By John Breech
Nov 2, 2017 at 5:03 pm ET

3 min read
After getting off to one of the most impressive starts for any rookie quarterback in NFL history, Deshaun Watson's season is now over.

CBS Sports NFL Insider Jason La Canfora has confirmed that the Texans' rookie quarterback suffered a torn ACL during practice on Thursday. According to ESPN.com, Watson was injured while running a read-option play on a grass practice field. NFL.com first reported the Texans feared the injury was a torn ACL.

The injury to Watson's right ACL comes almost exactly three years after he tore his left ACL during his freshman year at Clemson.

With Watson now out for the year, it means that the Texans will have to turn back to Tom Savage, who will now have to try and save Houston's season. At 3-4, the Texans are currently one game behind both the Titans and the Jaguars in the AFC South.
.
Here is the link for that article: https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...r-suffering-torn-acl-in-texans-practice/


Thus, the Texans were 3 and 4 w/Watson and he was the favorite for ROY. The team went 1 and 8 after he was out of the lineup and you are blaming Watson for that?


However, trying to paint Watson as some type of martyr because he played with Houston is just plain not the truth./quote]

I never tried to paint Watson as a martyr and I sure as hell didn't lie. Almost everyone who follows football knows how BOB destroyed that team w/his insane ego and absurd trades. It was a running joke in many circles--including this board--at just how bad of a job he did in that regard.

Quote
I'm not so hopped up to rate all the QB's because things happen to make those rankings dependent on other factors.

No one is forcing you to do so. But, is it okay if others want to discuss the topic?
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish
All are fine young quarterbacks capable of leading a franchise.

Like any quarterback they also will be dependent upon the team around them for success. All of them have the tools to be successful.

They are a little different to a degree. That is expected.

Allen is built to play. I loved him when he was coming into the league. But he was for sure a big hit or big miss guy. Physical stud. But he did plenty wrong and had to learn a lot. To his credit he did learn. His third year was a huge turn around. His game against the Chiefs in the playoffs was spellbinding.

Herbert and Burrow are classic pocket guys with enough leg. Both are excellent throwers. I have seen more of Burrow than Herbert. Herbert can flat spin it. He throws a great ball.

I love Burrow. I like him as a leader. The first time I heard him talk. I liked him. He plays to win. He is fearless. When a big play is needed. He makes the play. He may not be as physically gifted as the others. It does not matter. He has it between the ears and he is accurate.

Mahomes is a different cat. I saw that when he was coming into the draft and I turned on his college tape. You can't watch him and judge him like others. He does lots of things wrong. But you look up and damn it worked. No, no, no, no don't do that - damn. You don't coach young quarterbacks to play like Mahomes. Only Mahomes can do what he does and get away with it. "When it is grim be the Grim Reaper." You are not suppose to throw across your body. You don't throw across the field going the other way.

Deshaun Watson. I refuse to get into "off the field." People can view that as they see fit. On the field he is an excellent player. In his career at college and in the NFL he can take over a game. He has done that often. He will do whatever it takes to win. He will sacrifice his body to make a winning play.
He plays a complete game. He can play from the pocket on platform and deliver. He can move and throw. He makes good decisions. He is accurate.
The one true ability he has that stands out is his will to win. He plays his best when it counts the most.

*It remains to be seen how he handles what now surrounds him. There is no way to determine if it will affect his play on the field.

For myself I can separate how feel about an athlete personally and how I view their performance on a field of play. I love boxing. Mike Tyson is a convicted rapist and probably a rotten human being. I still liked watching him fight.

I love jazz music. Miles Davis is one of my all time favorite musicians. He was a notorious woman beater. A truly mean rotten person.
But when I turn on "Kind of Blue." I hear only music that takes me to another world.

I think this is a very good take. We disagree on some things, but it's a sound football discussion. I totally agree w/you about separating the off the field and on the field stuff. I don't watch sports to learn about morals. I view it as entertainment. When I played and coached, I was all in. However, as a spectator, I just enjoy watching the games. I like your Tyson and Davis analogies. I only mentioned the Watson off the field thing to point out that while you and I may not lose interest in the team, there will be others who make a big deal of it and that is their right. It could be a huge distraction and it is something to consider when building a team.
Posted By: Rishuz Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 11:16 PM
Originally Posted by WSU Willie
j/c

Burrow's most clutch play is to either throw it 2 yards behind the LOS and let his stud play-makers make a play...OR...chuck it up ala Kyler Murray and let one of his stud play-makers run under the punt throw.

8 yd lollipop, 8 yd lollipop, 8 yd lollipop, jump ball. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I agree with Vers that the physical is not the most important or the end all be all and Burrow seems like a really smart QB who knows where to go with the ball. I may be wrong on this long term, but I just don't see anything special when I watch him.

And I know he's being lauded for his leadership, but he looked like he has some Baker Mayfield in him that would turn people off. The way he was acting in the locker room, his somewhat indignant press conferences about how the Bengals expected to be there (reminded me of Baker early on), and his clothing choices brought a lot of attention on himself. It was overlooked because they were winning. If Baker had done those things he would have been lambasted (maybe because it wasn't being accompanied by winning). But I saw a guy in Burrow who's head was getting too big to fit through the door.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 11:24 PM
For the first time since I considered making this thread, I googled NFL Top QBs. I previously only used my own evaluations and PFF rankings. Here is the first link I looked at in case anyone is interested.


https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-end-of-2021-nfl-season-rankings

They have Brady at 1, Rodgers at 2, Herbert at 3, Burrow at 4, Mahomes 5th, Josh Allen is 6th, Murray at 7, Stafford at 8, Prescott is 9th, and Carr rounds out their top 10.

Not sure if this was written before the playoffs began or not? The published date is Jan. 12th, but it was probably written earlier. Not sure of when the playoffs started. I get a feeling this was written pre-playoffs because of there being no mention of Allen's greatness against KC, Murray's debacle, and Stafford's Super Bowl.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 11:33 PM
"Texans defensive lineman J.J. Watt knows that a team shouldn’t finish 4-12 when its quarterback has a great year like the one Deshaun Watson had.

After the Texans lost the season finale, NFL Films caught Watt and Watson walking off the field together, and Watt reflecting on what a disappointing season it’s been.


“Good job, brother. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. We wasted one of your years. I’m sorry. We should have 11 wins,” Watt told Watson.

Watson led the NFL with 4,823 passing yards and 8.9 yards per attempt. He had career-highs in completion percentage, touchdowns and first downs while throwing a career-low interception total. He was outstanding this season. It’s a shame that the Texans put such a bad team around him."

Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 11:39 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish
"Texans defensive lineman J.J. Watt knows that a team shouldn’t finish 4-12 when its quarterback has a great year like the one Deshaun Watson had.

After the Texans lost the season finale, NFL Films caught Watt and Watson walking off the field together, and Watt reflecting on what a disappointing season it’s been.


“Good job, brother. I’m sorry. I’m sorry. We wasted one of your years. I’m sorry. We should have 11 wins,” Watt told Watson.

Watson led the NFL with 4,823 passing yards and 8.9 yards per attempt. He had career-highs in completion percentage, touchdowns and first downs while throwing a career-low interception total. He was outstanding this season. It’s a shame that the Texans put such a bad team around him."


Everyone is entitled to their opinion w/out facing ridicule, but I think it's pretty hard for people not to include Watson in the discussion as a top qb. That probably won't go over well, but allow me to clarify. Despite not playing last year and despite having all these legal issues hanging over his head, there were 8 teams that wanted him as their QB. Four of those teams had the ability and the desire to succumb to Houston's outrageous demands in terms of what they were willing to trade for him. Hell, they were all good w/overlooking the public outrage that would inevitably come w/signing Watson. Damn......that can't be ignored in the honest evaluation of how professional talent evaluators view Watson. The dude can ball.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 11:48 PM
here is another article about NFL QB Tiers.

https://ftw.usatoday.com/lists/nfl-quarterback-rankings-stability-tiers-chiefs-bills-steelers
Posted By: Iluvmyxstripper Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/16/22 11:51 PM
Originally Posted by Rishuz
Originally Posted by WSU Willie
j/c

Burrow's most clutch play is to either throw it 2 yards behind the LOS and let his stud play-makers make a play...OR...chuck it up ala Kyler Murray and let one of his stud play-makers run under the punt throw.

8 yd lollipop, 8 yd lollipop, 8 yd lollipop, jump ball. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I agree with Vers that the physical is not the most important or the end all be all and Burrow seems like a really smart QB who knows where to go with the ball. I may be wrong on this long term, but I just don't see anything special when I watch him.

And I know he's being lauded for his leadership, but he looked like he has some Baker Mayfield in him that would turn people off. The way he was acting in the locker room, his somewhat indignant press conferences about how the Bengals expected to be there (reminded me of Baker early on), and his clothing choices brought a lot of attention on himself. It was overlooked because they were winning. If Baker had done those things he would have been lambasted (maybe because it wasn't being accompanied by winning). But I saw a guy in Burrow who's head was getting too big to fit through the door.
Burrow seems to be in that area between confident and arrogant. But show me a QB lacking in
Self confidence and I will show you Baker Mayfield, Josh Rosen, etc etc.
What Burrow did in 2021 was logic defying in someways
Everybody on.This board had them pegged for last place in the North. Called the Bengals
Stupid for passing on Sewell. If throwing 8 yds lolipops was all Burrow threw to Jamar Chase
Then how come defenses couldnt stop it then ? How come Baker couldnt just simply throw lollipops"
If its so easy? People forget Joe Burrow has less than 32 regular season starts. He led that team to a SB
With constant pressure on dropbacks . people constantly repeat Mayfield beat Burrow twice. Well Burrow beat Mahomes twice. Which is more impressive?
I suggest rewatching Burrows throws in 2021. He was throwing more than lollipops.
Him and Chase have a trust in each other like Manning/Harrison or Mahomes/Hill
And Tee Higgins is a number 1-on most teams
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 12:08 AM
Another link after the 2021-22 season that ranks the top 20 QBs.


https://sportsnaut.com/nfl-qb-rankings/

There seems to be a theme here that is vastly different than what some posters on dawgtalkers want us to believe.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 12:56 AM
Okay, Tier 3. This is my list of guys that you can with but might never elevate you. I also consider them a bit below what you need to win it all. This is going to be really tough.

Tier Three: Guys you want to keep, but are dubious about.

Kyler Murray [PFF # 9]; Ryan Tannehill [#8]; Jimmy G [#22]; Kirk Cousins [#6]; Matt Ryan [#16]; Mac Jones [#11]

Murray is well thought of on the sites I visited. He is dynamic and a huge playmaker. I'm sorry, but I hate his attitude. He is such a pouter. I would not want him as my qb, but i understand why others think highly o him.

Tannehill: Totally gagged in the playoff game, but he has a way of getting the job done during the regular season. I don't think he is good enough to win a title, but you can win w/him.

Jimmy G: It's hard to argue against his record. With him starting the 49ers are really good. When he is injured, they suck. His teammates adore the guy, which is kinda weird considering how good looking he is. It seems like he would be arrogant, but he has proven to be a great leader. On the other hand, the guy makes some of the worst decisions I have ever seen. He can be cruising along making one tough throw after another and then make the dumbest throw one can imagine.

Cousins: Dude is always ranked high in QBR and PFF rankings. I think he gets a bad rap sometimes, but on the other hand, he is way too streaky. He can be God-like for stretches and absolutely wretched in other stretches.

Ryan: Consummate professional who is a good passer. Solid character. I just never liked him in the clutch, but he will be a true adult in Indy's locker room after they endured Wentz last year.

Jones: I almost didn't put him on here because it's not quite right to evaluate rookie qbs, especially when elevating them. However, he is very mature and I was absolutely amazed at how much more composed he was than Baker was when we played them last year. Mature beyond his years. I don't think he has the physical attributes to be great, but he should be at least serviceable.

I understand this could be a confrontational list, but it's just my opinion and it was hard to narrow down this tier. I considered adding guys like Teddy Bridgewater, Jalen Hurts, Tua, and omitting Tannehill......but, that's it for now. I reserve the right to change my mind.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 01:56 AM
I think you have Matt Ryan a little low on the tiers.
https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/R/RyanMa00.htm

13 years, where did it go. Look at that career arc, He never would have lasted 5 years in Cleveland. frown
I pretty much like Matt Ryans' game at QB, but he is 36, whew,
222 games? Was 15 games the fewest he started in a year? That doesn't happen often.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 02:22 AM
j/c

idk about all NFL QBs, but by the end of the next two years I bet Baker is a top 10 starter. Just saying, for all the haters.
Posted By: Iluvmyxstripper Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 02:24 AM
With the way the league has tilted toward favoring the passing game
Its becomes that much harder to break the QBs down into tiers.
Look at Carson Wentz. He threw 27 TDs and 7 INTs in 2021.
In the 70s those numbers make him a 1st team All Pro.
In the 80s again a All Pro. Even in todays game, thats a darn good ratio.
Yet the Colts couldnt wait.to jettison him to the franchise that kills
QBs careers.
How do we fairly judge QBs when the rules have clearly benefitted
The QB? 4th quarter rating....playoff wins...passer rating vs top 10 defenses??
Their importance to the franchise??

Im going to.go with their importance to the franchise.
Tier 1. RODGERS
BRADY
BURROW
MAHOMES
ALLEN
HERBERT

TIER 2.
JACKSON
STAFFORD
PRESCOTT
CARR
WATSON
WILSON

TIER 3
COUSINS
MURRAY
HURTS
LAWRENCE
JONES
Posted By: Milk Man Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 03:31 AM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
j/c

idk about all NFL QBs, but by the end of the next two years I bet Baker is a top 10 starter. Just saying, for all the haters.

I'd argue there is a better chance he's out of the league due to his own self-destructive nature and is making money in college football broadcasting.
Posted By: Iluvmyxstripper Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
j/c

idk about all NFL QBs, but by the end of the next two years I bet Baker is a top 10 starter. Just saying, for all the haters.
Baker still makes rookie mistakes. His ceiling has been reached.
File him under Heisman Winning QBs who failed at the next level
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 06:31 AM
Here is a Bracket, should you choose to accept it. Highly scientifically ranked, or made up on the spot.
Totally projected out to the 2022 season, any unclear starter defaults to the team qb situation. 1A equaling the number 1 overall seed, and number 8A equaling the worst, err 32nd ranked situation. But as rows 1-4 were picked, best to worst, ... and rows 8-5 were picked worst to not as bad, the a,b,c,and d work out. In the final 4, A would face D.. and B would face C, the AD winner would face the BC winner in the championship. So, - The C bracket first! bottom right
1C. Pat Mahommes
8C Geno Smith/Seattle QB situation
4C Ryan Tannehill Tenn.
5C, Mac Jones/ New England QB

2C, Joe Burrow Cincy
7C, Carson Wentz, Wash. FT.
3C, Kyler Murray, Ariz
6C, Steelers QB situation.

Then: The A bracket, Top Left.
1A Aaron Rogers, Green bay
8A Mac Wilson Ny jets
4A Matt Ryan Indianapolis
5A Bridgewater/Tua Dolphins Qb situation

2A Mathew Stafford LAR
7A Daniel Jones NYG
3A Derrick Carr LV
6A Justin Fields Chicago

Then the D---- bracket bottom left !
1D Josh Allen Bills
8D, Carolina QB situation (darnold)
4D Jimmy Garropollo SF
5D Kirk Cousins Minnesota

2D Justin Herbert LAC
7D Jared Goff Detroit Qb situation
3D THE CLEVELAND BROWNS QB
6D Trevor Lawrence Jags QB

Then your final B- bracket Top Right.
1B Tom Brady buccaneers
8B Texans Qb, (Davis Mills/other)
4B Russell Wilson Denver
5B Jameis Winston/ New Orleans Qb

2B Dak Prescott Dallas
7B Jalen Hurtz/ Eagles QB
3B Lamar Jackson Ravens
6B Marcus Mariotta / Falcons QB situation.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 07:14 AM
Who is Mac Wilson Ny jets? It's Zach Wilson banghead
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 12:15 PM
Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
Burrow seems to be in that area between confident and arrogant. But show me a QB lacking in
Self confidence and I will show you Baker Mayfield, Josh Rosen, etc etc.
What Burrow did in 2021 was logic defying in someways
Everybody on.This board had them pegged for last place in the North. Called the Bengals
Stupid for passing on Sewell. If throwing 8 yds lolipops was all Burrow threw to Jamar Chase
Then how come defenses couldnt stop it then ? How come Baker couldnt just simply throw lollipops"
If its so easy? People forget Joe Burrow has less than 32 regular season starts. He led that team to a SB
With constant pressure on dropbacks . people constantly repeat Mayfield beat Burrow twice. Well Burrow beat Mahomes twice. Which is more impressive?
I suggest rewatching Burrows throws in 2021. He was throwing more than lollipops.
Him and Chase have a trust in each other like Manning/Harrison or Mahomes/Hill
And Tee Higgins is a number 1-on most teams

You answered your own question.

It's easy to "throw with confidence" when you have (2) legit #1 WRs (from your post) who get AND catch the ball...when your 3rd WR would be no worse than a #2 WR on most good teams...not to mention a great TE and RBs who get significant YAC.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 02:11 PM
On the thread "Watson Play Breakdown" I posted a film breakdown session with Kurt Warner, Baldy, and Watson.

Listening to Watson in that tape was interesting.

He is 26 years old. He came across as consumed with the process of playing quarterback. That is important. The reason is that mind set may serve him well this coming year. He is going to be under the microscope. Every comment he makes will be examined. He will have reporters sticking a mic in his face asking every question under the sun. I will not get into what may or may not have occured. I would like to think that as people go through life that they try to improve as people. Watson will be in Cleveland at least five years. We will get to see a lot of him over that time.

The locker room, the field, the meeting rooms will be a sanctuary for him to do nothing but play football. A comfort zone. My guess is he will consume himself with football. Untill the civil cases reach a conclusion and the NFL decides if to suspend him. Outside of the field will be no easy place.

What happens on the field will be about results. The better the results the easier the rest of his life will be.

Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 03:39 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
there were 8 teams that wanted him as their QB. Four of those teams had the ability and the desire to succumb to Houston's outrageous demands in terms of what they were willing to trade for him. Hell, they were all good w/overlooking the public outrage that would inevitably come w/signing Watson. Damn......that can't be ignored in the honest evaluation of how professional talent evaluators view Watson. The dude can ball.

Since honesty and clarity is what you seem to be looking for, eight teams inquired about watson. So they made a phone call. After looking into things and considering the consequences, only half of them actually pursued him. As far as him being a good QB he most certainly is. That stands on its own without trying to inflate how many teams actually pursued watson on a serious level.
Posted By: Milk Man Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
there were 8 teams that wanted him as their QB. Four of those teams had the ability and the desire to succumb to Houston's outrageous demands in terms of what they were willing to trade for him. Hell, they were all good w/overlooking the public outrage that would inevitably come w/signing Watson. Damn......that can't be ignored in the honest evaluation of how professional talent evaluators view Watson. The dude can ball.

Since honesty and clarity is what you seem to be looking for, eight teams inquired about watson. So they made a phone call. After looking into things and considering the consequences, only half of them actually pursued him. As far as him being a good QB he most certainly is. That stands on its own without trying to inflate how many teams actually pursued watson on a serious level.

From the Jason Lloyd article....

The Browns were one of 13 teams to express interest in Watson, who held a full no-trade clause. That left him in control of the proceedings. He reviewed the rosters of all 13 and submitted a list of five for which he was willing to waive his no-trade clause. The Texans eliminated one of his five teams because they were within the division. The four finalists were the Panthers, Saints, Falcons and Browns.
Posted By: Rishuz Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 03:50 PM
For anyone keeping track at home that's 41% of the teams in the NFL.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by Milk Man
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
there were 8 teams that wanted him as their QB. Four of those teams had the ability and the desire to succumb to Houston's outrageous demands in terms of what they were willing to trade for him. Hell, they were all good w/overlooking the public outrage that would inevitably come w/signing Watson. Damn......that can't be ignored in the honest evaluation of how professional talent evaluators view Watson. The dude can ball.

Since honesty and clarity is what you seem to be looking for, eight teams inquired about watson. So they made a phone call. After looking into things and considering the consequences, only half of them actually pursued him. As far as him being a good QB he most certainly is. That stands on its own without trying to inflate how many teams actually pursued watson on a serious level.

From the Jason Lloyd article....

The Browns were one of 13 teams to express interest in Watson, who held a full no-trade clause. That left him in control of the proceedings. He reviewed the rosters of all 13 and submitted a list of five for which he was willing to waive his no-trade clause. The Texans eliminated one of his five teams because they were within the division. The four finalists were the Panthers, Saints, Falcons and Browns.

Thanks for the honesty and clarity.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 04:02 PM
Originally Posted by Rishuz
For anyone keeping track at home that's 41% of the teams in the NFL.

Serious question - Is there anyone that doesn't think DW is potentially a top 3 - top 5 QB in the NFL? Is there anyone denying that on Paper DW is an immense upgrade in consistency and ability over Baker?

I mean based on Watson being a top 3, 4, 5 QB in the NFL, it could be argued it's surprising that 25 other teams weren't inquiring.

I still want to wait and see DW do it in a Browns uniform - that's mainly due to being a Browns fan for so long and if something can go wrong it normally does ... but I don't think there is much debate about how good DW was and should be. To Bone's post earlier - one of the best things to see/hear is him being "consumed" to be the best QB he can be. My single biggest complaint about Baker is that this statement could never be said about Baker. Not to this point in his NFL career anyway.
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 04:09 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Serious question - Is there anyone that doesn't think DW is potentially a top 3 - top 5 QB in the NFL? Is there anyone denying that on Paper DW is an immense upgrade in consistency and ability over Baker?

Not that I've seen or read on this board...or any other board for that matter. It is possible to believe that ^ while still defending Baker when the BS accusations and lack-of-context start to fly. (Not saying that is you.)
Posted By: Rishuz Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 04:15 PM
I don't think Watson is top 5. I hope by the end of this next season he is.

He's an upgrade over the previous guy.
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by Rishuz
I don't think Watson is top 5. I hope by the end of this next season he is.

He's an upgrade over the previous guy.

Doing my best steve imitation:

For 230 million, (3) 1st Rd picks + more picks he damn well better be a top-5 QB and an upgrade over the previous guy.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 04:47 PM
I don't think you're really interested in "honesty and clarity". People talk about how NFL FO's should always do their due diligence. Here's what inquiry actually means....

inquiry- an act of asking for information.

Once you get that information you then decide if that's of actual interest to you. And the number of teams that even called to get that information differs greatly according to which source you listen to.

Nick Caserio: There were “a few more” teams interested in Deshaun Watson

Four teams ultimately jockeyed for position to secure the services of Deshaun Watson: Panthers, Saints, Falcons, and Browns. More than four were interested.

The field was cut to four based in large part on teams failing to meet Houston’s threshold trade expectations.

“I would say there was a fair amount of teams, but what we tried to do was bring the teams that had a legitimate interest, and that was based off the compensation that was presented,” Texans G.M. Nick Caserio told reporters on Saturday. “Going back to the earlier questions, I think there was a certain threshold that I had established in order to make it a legitimate discussion, and if we got to that point then we could engage further. I don’t want to get into the exact number, but there was a few more, however many teams than what everybody was reporting towards the end.”

The Colts reportedly inquired, but they had the door slammed in their faces by their division rivals. The real question is which other teams made a trade offer that was deemed too low to secure permission from the Texans to meet with Watson?

That was indeed a genius move by Caserio, the smartest thing the Texans have done in several years. If they had (as I thought they would) allowed Watson to meet with teams and then create a list of those for which he’d waive his no-trade clause, Watson possibly would have decided to waive his no-trade clause for only one team. That would have destroyed Houston’s leverage when the time came to talk trade.

By pre-qualifying teams to trade for Watson by requiring acceptable trade terms to be tendered, the Texans ensured that they would get what they wanted for Watson before letting Watson decide what he wanted.

The fact that a few more teams tried is intriguing, since perhaps one or more were considering swooping in with an offer the Texans would have taken in order to make a last-ditch run at Watson.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...more-teams-interested-in-deshaun-watson/

So yes, even the Texans owner doesn't claim it was 13 teams, actually he indicates it was far less, after those other teams knew what the asking price was, they held no "interest" in actually trying to acquire watson. Like I said, they made a phone call to ask questions.
Posted By: Iluvmyxstripper Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by WSU Willie
Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
Burrow seems to be in that area between confident and arrogant. But show me a QB lacking in
Self confidence and I will show you Baker Mayfield, Josh Rosen, etc etc.
What Burrow did in 2021 was logic defying in someways
Everybody on.This board had them pegged for last place in the North. Called the Bengals
Stupid for passing on Sewell. If throwing 8 yds lolipops was all Burrow threw to Jamar Chase
Then how come defenses couldnt stop it then ? How come Baker couldnt just simply throw lollipops"
If its so easy? People forget Joe Burrow has less than 32 regular season starts. He led that team to a SB
With constant pressure on dropbacks . people constantly repeat Mayfield beat Burrow twice. Well Burrow beat Mahomes twice. Which is more impressive?
I suggest rewatching Burrows throws in 2021. He was throwing more than lollipops.
Him and Chase have a trust in each other like Manning/Harrison or Mahomes/Hill
And Tee Higgins is a number 1-on most teams

You answered your own question.

It's easy to "throw with confidence" when you have (2) legit #1 WRs (from your post) who get AND catch the ball...when your 3rd WR would be no worse than a #2 WR on most good teams...not to mention a great TE and RBs who get significant YAC.
Burrow had confidence long before he was a starting NFL
QB. He is better than you give him credir for.
He lead the league in completion % behind a oline
That was average on.its best day.
Now that the Bengals upgraded their oline how better can
He get? If he is such a average QB how did the Bengals
Get to the SB?
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 04:59 PM
Lots of average QBs get to the SB...some even win it. There are 52 other guys that play too.
Posted By: FrankZ Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 05:27 PM
You are arguing to argue.

You weren't in the room nor on the phone so you are no more an expert than anyone else with their speculation. You find a source to confirm your bias and it is more correct than a source that does not.

Maybe just don't fight to fight, but yeah, that will never happen.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 05:29 PM
Thanks for your valuable and informative addition to the thread in which you addressed the content. It's much appreciated.
Posted By: FrankZ Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 05:32 PM
You are welcome.
Posted By: Iluvmyxstripper Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by WSU Willie
Lots of average QBs get to the SB...some even win it. There are 52 other guys that play too.
Then how come Baker never got there then?
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 08:06 PM
Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
Originally Posted by WSU Willie
Lots of average QBs get to the SB...some even win it. There are 52 other guys that play too.
Then how come Baker never got there then?

Dan Marino got there ONCE. Jim Kelly got there 100 times and never won. Trent Dilfer is a SB Champ. Football teams have 11 players on the field at a time. Burrow is ridiculously overrated. Give him DPJ, Schwartz and Hooper...he wouldn't have gone to the SB either. It's not difficult.
Posted By: Iluvmyxstripper Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 08:48 PM
Originally Posted by WSU Willie
Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
Originally Posted by WSU Willie
Lots of average QBs get to the SB...some even win it. There are 52 other guys that play too.
Then how come Baker never got there then?

Dan Marino got there ONCE. Jim Kelly got there 100 times and never won. Trent Dilfer is a SB Champ. Football teams have 11 players on the field at a time. Burrow is ridiculously overrated. Give him DPJ, Schwartz and Hooper...he wouldn't have gone to the SB either. It's not difficult.
So are you alluding, the targets,make the QB right?
Posted By: Iluvmyxstripper Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by WSU Willie
Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
Originally Posted by WSU Willie
Lots of average QBs get to the SB...some even win it. There are 52 other guys that play too.
Then how come Baker never got there then?

Dan Marino got there ONCE. Jim Kelly got there 100 times and never won. Trent Dilfer is a SB Champ. Football teams have 11 players on the field at a time. Burrow is ridiculously overrated. Give him DPJ, Schwartz and Hooper...he wouldn't have gone to the SB either. It's not difficult.
And if the Bengals didnt have Burrow , they wouldnt have gone to the SB.
Show me a sample of plays that supports your theroy he is over rated.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 09:05 PM
Originally Posted by WSU
. Give him DPJ, Schwartz and Hooper...he wouldn't have gone to the SB either. It's not difficult.

This is undeniably true. Anyone who wants to say otherwise is not being honest.... I still love Burrows and would take him over Baker but they don't go to the play offs with our WR core.
Posted By: Iluvmyxstripper Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by WSU
. Give him DPJ, Schwartz and Hooper...he wouldn't have gone to the SB either. It's not difficult.

This is undeniably true. Anyone who wants to say otherwise is not being honest.... I still love Burrows and would take him over Baker but they don't go to the play offs with our WR core.
But last year, the Browns were among the favorites to reach the SB that was including DPJ, Schwartz and Hooper in the offensive conversation.
But Schwartz and DPJ werent even 1 and 2 on the depth chart.
So how do they factor in the argument.?
Posted By: DeisleDawg Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by WSU
. Give him DPJ, Schwartz and Hooper...he wouldn't have gone to the SB either. It's not difficult.

This is undeniably true. Anyone who wants to say otherwise is not being honest.... I still love Burrows and would take him over Baker but they don't go to the play offs with our WR core.


Not that it matters much, Baker didn't get to the SB.

2020 he did get to the play-offs with 2 of the mentioned WR's

2021 is hard to evaluate due to all the injuries around the team

In reality, a non call during the KC game made a big difference.

who knows..
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 10:26 PM
Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by WSU
. Give him DPJ, Schwartz and Hooper...he wouldn't have gone to the SB either. It's not difficult.

This is undeniably true. Anyone who wants to say otherwise is not being honest.... I still love Burrows and would take him over Baker but they don't go to the play offs with our WR core.

But last year, the Browns were among the favorites (by the "expert" pundits with no clue as to how poor our receiving options actually were...that OBJ wanted out over the summer...and that Baker would destroy his shoulder in game 2) to reach the SB that was including DPJ, Schwartz and Hooper in the offensive conversation.

But Schwartz and DPJ werent even 1 and 2 on the depth chart. (DPJ was our best WR last year.)

So how do they factor in the argument.? (They aren't very good and would have not seen the gameday active roster if they were Bengals players rather than Browns.)

Landry was healthy in 2020...Higgins was not in his usual funk that last half of 2020...Hooper in 2020 could catch a ball without immediately falling down. The same humans filled the jerseys with the names of Landry, Higgins & Hooper on the backs...but after watching the games...it was quite obvious that they were not the same PLAYERS in 2021.


If I STLL have to explain it...you are simply being obtuse. The Browns top 3 pass catching options were unceremoniously allowed to leave or were asked to leave. Two of them - with no contract hanging over their heads - are still unsigned.

I underlined my other responses to add context.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/17/22 10:53 PM
Yet another thread hijacked by the same people who hijack all threads.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 12:23 AM
It probably won't work because those in charge allow three guys to dominate this forum, but I'll attempt to get back to the topic. I'm done w/tiers because I don't think you can win a chip w/any of these guys, but I'll post my thoughts on a few of the guys each time I post. Again, this is subjective. I do refer to rankings from the other sites to help me categorize things.

Carson Wentz: I think this guy is physically gifted. He was ranked 23rd by PFF. He had 27 TDs and 7 picks. That's actually pretty good. I think his NFL comparison is Baker Mayfield even though Wentz has much better numbers. And while some may say that he didn't have any injuries, he actually did. He played on two badly sprained ankles that obviously affected his leg drive and follow through. My problem w/him is that him is that he folds when pressured in the pocket and when the pressure is on in big moments. I also think he is emotionally immature and for those three three reasons, I see the Baker comparison. I don't think Wentz is a very good leader. I see him trying to play hero ball way too often. I think he gags when things get tight. I think he is on his last chance to prove he is an NFL starter.

Hell w/it........I am just going to limit this post to one because I want y'all to check this out.

Jim Irsay is the owner of the Colts. Here is an excerpt from an article on the situation. Most won't read it, but this is the guy throwing stones?

Quote
For Colts’ Jim Irsay, it was ‘very obvious’ Carson Wentz had to go
By Cindy Boren
March 30, 2022|Updated March 30, 2022 at 2:50 p.m. EDT

Carson Wentz leaves the field after the Colts beat the Cardinals in a late-season matchup. (Ross D. Franklin/AP)
In words that were uncharacteristically blunt in the vocabularies of the men who run the NFL, Indianapolis Colts owner Jim Irsay described the one-year tenure of Carson Wentz, the quarterback his team traded to the Washington Commanders this month, as a “mistake” the Colts had to rectify.

Colts Coach Frank Reich was diplomatic Monday in discussing how things didn’t work out with the quarterback he had coached as an assistant in Philadelphia, but Irsay was more focused Tuesday night, laying much of the blame for Indianapolis’s disappointing 2021 season at Wentz’s feet.

“The worst thing you can do is have a mistake and try to keep living with it going forward,” Irsay said of the decision to move forward without Wentz at the NFL meetings in Palm Beach, Fla. (via the Indianapolis Star). “For us, it was something we had to move away from as a franchise. It was very obvious.”


Wentz, who was brought to Indianapolis in February 2021 when the Colts traded first- and third-round draft picks to the Eagles, found his footing after an 0-3 start. He threw 23 of his 27 touchdown passes during a 9-3 run that preceded the Colts losing their last two games and finishing 9-8.

“For us, the fit just wasn’t right. I don’t know why,” Irsay said. “A lot of times you don’t know why, but you know it isn’t, and it was important for us to move in a different direction.”

Behind the scenes, the chemistry just wasn’t there, Irsay added.

“In having conversations with trusted veterans on the team, when you speak to them in confidence, oftentimes they share really what’s happening,” Irsay said. “What I found out was very concerning.

“You search for the right chemistry with any team. In football, it’s as important as any sport that there is. If that chemistry is off, if it isn’t there, it can be extremely detrimental and lower performance to a degree that is stunning and shocking.”



It was particularly galling to Irsay when unvaccinated players tested positive for the coronavirus, which happened to Wentz before the Colts’ Week 17 game against the Oakland Raiders. Because NFL protocols had been changed by that point, he played in the game but missed practice all week.


In the regular season finale, the Colts were 9-7 and still in the running for a playoff spot when they faced the woeful Jacksonville Jaguars. Their 26-11 loss was the last straw for Irsay, and Wentz’s season stats — 3,563 passing yards with only seven interceptions — couldn’t save him.

“No disrespect to Jacksonville, but I mean, they’re the worst team in the league. You play well and hard for the first quarter or so, and they’re looking to go to their locker room and clean it out. I’ve never seen anything like that in my life,” Irsay said. “You say, ‘My God, there’s something wrong here.’ It needs to be corrected. I think that we feel like we did.”

Yet, the Colts were able to trade Wentz for decent compensation. Hmmmmm.....

Here is some background on Irsay:

Quote
The shadow life of Jim Irsay

Carolyn Kaster/ AP IMAGES
Oct 15, 2014
Shaun Assael
ESPN Senior Writer
Facebook
Twitter
Facebook Messenger
Pinterest
Email
print
Special reporting by Greg Amante, "Outside the Lines"

This story appears in ESPN The Magazine's Nov. 11 College Hoops Tip-Off. Subscribe today!


KIMBERLY WUNDRUM'S friends passed by the lilacs and lilies and other flowers that she loved, but it was the blue orchids by her open casket, arranged in the shape of a horseshoe, that stopped some cold. Jim Irsay, the 55-year-old owner of the Indianapolis Colts, had sent the flowers, which was typical of the kind of thing he did. The billionaire had a habit of donating generously to local charities and businesses. But he also reached out to individuals, most notably on Twitter, often directly helping those who are struggling.

But this wasn't just a chance for Irsay to extend a thoughtful gesture to a bereaved family -- a family of Colts fans. The blue orchids were his way of saying goodbye to the woman he'd lived with off and on for nearly a decade. Many of the mourners on that chilly March 7 afternoon had been guests of Kim's at Colts games, according to half a dozen people in attendance, some even at Super Bowls, to which they rode party buses with police escorts and then lounged in luxury suites. They had spent time with Jim and Kim in the suburban home they shared, and read the love notes he left for her. They knew that, when Kim didn't have her hands in the dirt of one of her gardens, she wore the diamond ring Jim had placed on her finger. She called it an engagement ring.

Yet Jim's relationship with Kim -- as seen through documents, social media feeds and interviews with more than a dozen friends and family members over the course of three months -- was far from normal. Jim, whose net worth of $1.7 billion comes in large part from his ownership of the Colts and the publicly financed, $720 million, Lucas Oil Stadium, bought Kim three separate residences over their roughly eight years together, each one a place she could call home. But he kept himself at arm's length. He wouldn't take Kim to a movie unless it was a matinee, or risk a restaurant unless they were out of town, and even then it had to be with a group. Jim would leave her at the luxurious home they shared to go to Colts charity events and pose with his wife, Meg, from whom he was legally separated.

On March 2, Kim was found alone dead of a drug overdose at the age of 42, in the condo Jim had bought for her. It had been a year since their romance had dissolved, since Jim had found another woman and had Kim moved out of the home they shared. At her viewing, Kim's friends sat wondering whether Jim would show up, but the blue orchids were the only sign of him.

Nine days after the viewing, on March 16, a police officer pulled Irsay over near the home he'd bought for his new girlfriend and found a laundry bag full of pills in the front seat of his SUV. After he was arrested and charged with four felony drug counts, a mug shot revealed a gaunt prisoner having trouble keeping his eyes open.

In reporting on his arrest, local media tied Irsay to Wundrum in only the most perfunctory way, noting that she lived in residences he'd bought through a trust but portraying her as little more than a friend. He never challenged that narrative, much less described the effect her death had on him.

Irsay declined several requests from ESPN The Magazine and "Outside the Lines" to address his relationship with Wundrum. In an email dated Oct. 13, Colts senior director of communications Avis Roper wrote, "Thanks for reaching out to me with the request for Mr. Irsay in advance of the story, however, at this time we respectfully decline."

But an in-depth look at their life together reveals the story that was completely overshadowed by the mug shot that went viral.

His Warning Signs

Jim Irsay's dealings with the Indianapolis police go back two decades, to an episode in 1995 when a detective named Irene Conder discovered his name in the files of a doctor who was under suspicion of running a pill mill.

Irsay, then the GM of the Colts, had been a walk-on at SMU and still enjoyed hitting the gym with his players. But now that he was in his mid-30s, all that lifting was taking its toll. Surgeries on his back, elbow and wrist left him needing prescription meds to relieve chronic pain.

Conder didn't think Irsay had broken any laws, but she did request a meeting at the Colts' practice facility, and there, an NFL security agent suggested that Irsay seek treatment for possible addiction. As later reported by The Indianapolis Star, Irsay waved off the idea, pointing out that his father, Robert, who had made the family's fortune in heating and air conditioning, was gravely ill after a recent stroke. Jim had assumed day-to-day operations of the team. "I can't just leave," the detective recalled Irsay saying, according to the Star.

Two years later, Robert Irsay was dead from heart failure, and Jim became, at 37, the youngest owner in the NFL. The transition is mythologized in Indianapolis: how he vowed to leave a loftier legacy than his hard-drinking dad, who had infamously moved the Colts from Baltimore under the cloak of night; and how Colts brass made the historic call to pick Peyton Manning over Ryan Leaf in the 1998 draft. Earlier that year, according to the Star, Irsay and the city of Indianapolis had renegotiated the lease for the RCA Dome, the team's home at the time, providing the Colts at least $8 million a year in dome-generated revenues and assuring the city that the franchise would stay at least 10 more years.

Irsay, who reportedly has a Colts logo tattooed on his right shoulder, has enjoyed the spoils of being an NFL owner. He has a collection of 175 historic guitars from the likes of John Lennon, Elvis Presley and Keith Richards, and has played on stage with Indiana native John Mellencamp. An eclectic reader, he spent $2.4 million to buy the original manuscript of Jack Kerouac's masterpiece, "On The Road," a manifesto of rootlessness that he keeps in his office at Lucas Oil Stadium in the heart of downtown Indy. He also counted himself among the friends of the late gonzo journalist Hunter S. Thompson, and allowed the Colts to publish a letter that Thompson had written to him in 1997 as the Colts were en route to a dismal 3-13 season: "Yr days will be spastic episodes full of great crooked cops & wrongful dishonor ... that is what I see in the future. ... Be careful, James -- yr greed crazed outbursts are beginning to rub off on people."

While Irsay's star was rising in NFL circles, his name again appeared in confidential police files. In 1998, not long after his father's death, Detective Conder, who continued investigating doctors who overprescribed pills, found Irsay's name again. As Conder told the Star, "I could not get [Irsay] identified as the guy who picked up the pills from the pharmacy, and prosecutors would not charge him without a positive identification."

This time Irsay got the message and sought help at an Indianapolis treatment center called Sober Life Alternatives. According to the ex-doctor who ran it, Thomas Hoshour, Irsay became a frequent face at local 12-step programs. "I'd say 90 percent of the people [in this city] who've been to programs have been in meetings with Jim," Hoshour says. Opening himself up to other addicts was another way Irsay became deeply, invisibly woven into the fabric of Indianapolis.

But four years later, in 2002, just as he was trying to rebuild the Colts in the new AFC South, The Indianapolis Star reported his third and most serious brush with the law. Federal drug agents who were bearing down on a prominent plastic surgeon discovered that Irsay had received a staggering 120 prescriptions over the course of a year. According to the Star, they ranged from scripts for painkillers Lorcet and Vicoprofen to Xanax and the anti-panic drug Klonopin. In one alarming 24-day binge, the paper reported, he was prescribed 400 tablets of the painkiller Oxycontin.

Not only was the investigation front-page news but the local television station WTHR also reported that Irsay had had at least three overdoses. Again, the criminal investigation failed to result in charges.

Buffeted by questions about his health at the time, the Colts owner released a terse statement: "This summer I sought professional help at a nationally recognized facility located outside Indiana. I have successfully dealt with my dependence and my chronic pain issues. I ask that my privacy and that of my family be respected on this health issue."


When she wasn't gardening, Kim wore a diamond ring from Irsay -- what she called an engagement ring. Facebook
Her Move South

Before Jim came to the attention of the Indianapolis police in the mid-1990s, Kimberly Wundrum was a 20-year-old law secretary who was looking to start a new chapter in her life. Friends recall that the petite blonde with a sunny personality didn't know exactly what she wanted to do, but it certainly wasn't answering phones in a law office. So she packed her things and moved from Indy to Flagler Beach, a honkytonk town on the east coast of Florida where a cousin lived. In her first weeks there, she came across a classified ad from a divorced father of four who needed help with his kids.

Craig Boda, who was 15 years older than Kim, was a prominent defense attorney in Flagler Beach, well known for his courtroom theatrics in which he often accused the police of misconduct. What was less known was that he was doing the types of drugs his clients sold and occasionally hiding their money.

"My dad was a crazy, manic lawyer," says his son Matt Boda, now an aspiring filmmaker in L.A. "Kim was this little nanny who got sucked into our world."

Kim became what Matt describes as the "authority figure" around the house, driving the kids to their appointments and helicoptering over their habits. "[Kim] was always so nice that you had to listen to her," says Matt's younger brother, Chad Boda, who is a research assistant at a university. "But if you didn't, my dad was ready to step in. And he could be scary when he wanted to be."

Although Kim's Indianapolis friends say she never did more than drink or smoke marijuana in high school, Matt Boda says, "Kim did heroin with my dad, like I did. The most bittersweet memory I have is when we were doing drugs together. He'd never been so loving, but it was never so destructive."

Eventually, the nanny's relationship with her employer turned romantic, and the two were married in 1994. Just a few years into the marriage, Boda pleaded guilty to helping a client hide drug profits from the IRS. By the time he was sentenced to 15 months behind bars in 1998, Kim was a 26-year-old who'd been left to raise four kids: Chad, 12; Matt and his twin brother, Josh, 14; and their sister, Megan, who was almost 17.

Craig's return from prison in 1999 eased the strain somewhat. But over the next three years, his ill-fated battle to keep his law license drained his spirits and the family's income. Matt recalls that his father became depressed, spending long days at home in dark rages, destructively throwing things around the house. The stress weighed on Kim, and the first cracks in her sunny exterior began to show.

In October 2002, on a trip through Lake County, Florida, a cop stopped her for speeding and saw that she had five suspensions on her license for racking up 18 points in as many months and failing to appear at court hearings. As the arresting officer would write in an incident report, she had a dozen Xanax and 105 Oxycodone pills in an unlabeled prescription bottle in the center console of her Toyota.

A trafficking charge was eventually dropped after Craig stepped in with prescriptions, and Kim was placed on two years' probation for driving on the suspended license. Later that same year, according to Matt, Kim called her mother in Indianapolis and acknowledged that she needed help.

Betty Wundrum drove right to the Bodas' door. It was time to bring Kimberly Lynn home.

Starting Over

In the summer of 2005, Irsay was reaching the pinnacle of his power in the NFL. After a pair of 12-4 seasons, the Manning-led Colts were now a Super Bowl favorite. And Irsay had moved onto a new phase in his private life after his wife, Meg -- who would go on to publish a collection of poetry titled, "Messages to Me: Words Collected on the Road to Silence" -- had filed for legal separation in 2002.

In the three years since she returned to Indianapolis, Kim -- who Matt says still couldn't bring herself to file for divorce from Craig Boda -- had been trying to rediscover the woman she was before. She worked at a gift shop in the Broad Ripple section of Indy, volunteered as a landscaper at the Indianapolis Museum of Art and, according to court filings, brought her debts under control by declaring bankruptcy. She also renewed old friendships. When she learned that a woman she once worked with at a law firm had suddenly lost her husband, she showed up to the funeral.

"I didn't know she was back," says the friend, Laura Cohen. "She came with a note that she'd prepared for me. It meant everything."

But in July 2005, just as Kim started to feel settled, Craig Boda was discovered unresponsive at his home in New Port Richey, Florida. He was taken to a nearby hospital and pronounced dead shortly after. The Pinellas County coroner identified the cause as "multi-drug toxicity" and called the death accidental. Matt Boda believes his father accidentally overdosed on pain pills after an operation after a car crash.

As the family gathered in Key West to spread Craig's ashes over the ocean, Kim held each of her stepkids close and promised she'd take care of them.

A Home Of Their Own

On visits to Indianapolis while she was still living in Florida with Craig, Kim had stayed with her sister, Rhonda, who was in business as a personal masseuse and had Jim Irsay as a longtime client. In a session with Rhonda in 2005, Jim mentioned that he needed a babysitter for friends who were visiting his lake house in Culver, Indiana, about two hours north of Indy; Rhonda suggested Kim, who accepted the job sometime after she returned from Craig Boda's funeral.

According to Cohen, once Kim and Jim had a chance to be alone, they discovered a shared world of 12-step promises and hopes. The more they spoke, the more they realized they wanted the same future.

Jim started calling Kim often, and he'd stop by when he knew Rhonda wasn't at the house. They soon began to meet up without the presence or pretense of Rhonda. Kim, who had a casual boyfriend, didn't entirely know how to react to the attention, especially when Jim began buying her gifts. "She was very hesitant to get into a relationship," says Cohen, who had become close friends with Kim. "I'm not sure she was ready."

In early 2006, Jim became even more invested in their relationship by buying Kim a condo on the outskirts of Indianapolis. According to public documents first discovered by The Indianapolis Star, this property would eventually become part of the "2009 Blue Trust," an entity controlled by Irsay, and would be transferred to her name at no cost. "He just bought this condo and said, Here you go," Cohen recalls. "That was really overwhelming for her. She was like, 'What does that mean?'"

Although Jim still had his estate in the affluent suburb of Carmel, he drove to Kim's townhouse nearly every night to be with her. Friends saw the love notes he left for "Baba," his pet name for Kim, and the stacks of cash he left, stuffed into empty fast-food bags. "Jim gave her rings and presents all the time," says a friend from Florida, Robyn Boback, who regularly flew to Indianapolis to visit. "[They] had a whole other life without the public."

After the Colts won Super Bowl XLI in February 2007, Cohen says Jim asked Kim for her mother's ring size so he could make a ring for her. (Cohen got one, too.) He even took joy in the little things he could do, like emptying a dishwasher or making morning coffee. "I'd hear voice mails from him," Cohen says. "He genuinely seemed to care for her."

He also cared for her stepkids, offering them the kind of help that changed their lives. "If it wasn't for Jim, I'd be dead," Matt Boda says flatly. "When my dad died, the scar was so deep that when Jim came, I was like, 'Oh my God, here's my new dad come to save the day. He took me out of my junkie life in Florida and gave me a new [life] in Los Angeles. He systematically just reset us all." Chad Boda says Kim suddenly had enough money to foot the bill for his doctoral degree in Europe, and Megan, the oldest, enjoyed all-expense-paid trips to Colts games with her friends. "Jim has been very, very generous with me and my brothers," she says.

As the years went on, however, and the couple took regular vacations across the U.S. and Europe, it became hard for Kim to ignore that Jim not only refused to make her a part of his public life but also distanced her from parts of his private life. "I don't think she had any delusions about getting married to Jim," Chad Boda says. "But I think she thought she'd gain more access to his personal life."

Even though Jim and Meg Irsay, who married in 1980, were legally separated for a decade, they didn't officially divorce until this January. Jim also never introduced his three girls to Kim, much less to the Boda children. "They didn't even know we existed," Matt Boda says.

Cohen recalls asking Kim why she didn't press Jim to get a divorce, to which Kim shrugged her shoulders and replied, "Why rock the boat?"

But it became harder for her to watch Jim sit in the owner's box as she sat in a separate luxury suite or in the stands. Although she shared the same drivers as Jim's family, they never rode together, leaving her to learn about the Irsay girls' lives through gossip and the drivers they shared. When Carlie Irsay got married in Nantucket in 2008, Jim paid for Kim to go on a jaunt to Chicago with friends, perhaps so she wouldn't feel left home alone.

"She was very hurt by the lack of him being open," says Cohen, who accompanied her on that getaway. Adds Matt Boda, "All Kim wanted to do was be assimilated into Jim's family and not be some little secret."

In 2010, Kim began sliding into some old habits. Cohen remembers a call with Jim in which he said, "I'm really worried about Kim" because she was abusing pills again. So he paid for Kim to go to a treatment center in Malibu, and she seemed healthier when she returned.

Ready for a fresh start, the two began shopping for a new home and decided on one in a luxury subdivision outside of Indianapolis among rolling hills, waterfalls and four-car garages. The 4,500-square-foot home on Mill Pond Lane was a huge step up from Kim's townhouse. It seemed like a place for her to finally put down roots.

The Unraveling

In early 2011, the year after Jim and Kim had begun to share their new home, @JimIrsay sent out one of his countless trivia questions to his hundreds of thousands of followers on Twitter. Among those who responded was Jami Martin, a married mother of three from Martinsville, Indiana, a town about 30 miles southwest of Indianapolis.

Jami's Twitter photo shows the former bathing suit calendar model in a black dress that highlights her long red hair and athletic frame. According to her then-husband, Greg Martin, she received a private message that led to a liaison with Irsay. (Jami Martin declined to comment through her attorney.)


Irsay is open about his relationship with Jami in ways that he never was with Kim. Matt Kryger / The Star
When Greg, a real estate appraiser, learned his wife was having an affair, he responded by posting a barrage of tweets from @martin_assoc that were remarkable for the fact that they seem to have gone entirely unnoticed.

In a series of tweets between Oct. 8 and Nov. 25, 2011, he wrote Irsay questioning his character. "Did you have a good time last night, hmwrcker." On Nov. 24, with the Colts on a 10-game losing streak, he wrote to @JimIrsay: "Don't feed your line of bulls---. Home Wrecker! Go ruin another family!" The next day, he tweeted to @JimIrsay: "Did you wreck their home too?" He hasn't tweeted since.

The months following the 2011 season were pivotal for Irsay. In a move that stunned his players and cemented his reputation as one of the shrewdest owners in the NFL, he axed his longtime president, Bill Polian; removed Polian's son Chris as GM; and dismissed his head coach, Jim Caldwell. In a sweeping reorganization, he hired youthful Ryan Grigson from the Eagles as GM and recruited Chuck Pagano, then the red-hot defensive coordinator of the Ravens, as his head coach. He also made what looks to be another historic draft-day call by taking Andrew Luck No. 1 over Robert Griffin III. In his book, "Sidelined," Pagano recalled his job interview: "Mr. Irsay was very passionate about his team and very direct about what he expected in the near future. [He] also talked a lot about his family members and asked questions about mine."

Several weeks after hiring Pagano, Irsay named his three daughters vice-chairs and co-owners of the Colts. Irsay was also keeping an eye out for the Boda kids while Martin's children were now spending time with him.

Kim's friends aren't certain whether she knew the extent of the relationship between Jim and Jami, although Cohen recalls Kim asking more than a year later, "Why was I the last to know?" By early 2012, she was using drugs again, and Jim paid for another tour through rehab.

Determined to maintain her own identity when she came back, Kim put all of her energy into the landscaping business she'd started in 2007 and had a high school friend, Kathy Griner, helping her run it. From there, it's hard to pin down the exact moment when Kim and Jim began their spirals.

The live news conference Irsay held in March 2012 to announce that he was cutting Peyton Manning showed the owner at his peak: earnest, articulate, engaged. But by December of that year, Griner says she would arrive to find the house a mess, with Kim or Jim or both passed out in their clothes.

Kim began taking pictures of Jim in his most inebriated states, lying face down in the furniture with burned-out cigarettes around him, in the hopes of showing him how much he needed help, too. "I saw those pictures," Griner says. "I didn't know what to say."


A gaunt Irsay watches Colts minicamp from the sideline in 2013. Brian Spurlock/USA TODAY Sports
A Clean Break

The moment that spelled the end for Jim and Kim came in the spring of 2013, when she left for yet another rehab retreat in Utah. While she was away, her possessions were moved out of the house on Mill Pond Lane and into a townhouse Jim bought for her nearby using the "2009 Blue Trust," which then put the property under Kim's name.

"Honestly, I was relieved [when I heard it happened]," Chad Boda says. "I thought it would be good for her to get back to a simpler life and not have all the noise and controversy that came with being around someone like Jim."

But Kim was shattered when she returned to find her belongings sitting in bubble wrap. Even though Jim arranged for her to have a $6,000-a-month allowance and occasionally left her stacks of cash in empty fast-food bags, according to several of her friends, her eviction underscored everything she'd felt about being a second-class citizen.

"As far as I know, Kim never got an explanation from Jim," Cohen says. "He never told her, 'I don't love you. It's time to move on.' All she got were a few incoherent phone calls."

A Tragic End

Kim sounds fragile and scratchy on the voice mail. "I can't believe I can even halfway laugh, because it's not going to be funny at all," she says.

Rob Griner, Kathy's husband, is standing in his driveway in Indianapolis when he plays the message on his phone. Like his wife, he went to high school with Kim, and he considers himself a big brother to her. So he didn't hesitate when she called him to bail her out of jail in January of this year.

In the early hours of Jan. 4, Kim had pulled onto I-65 South and started driving in the wrong direction for eight miles, narrowly missing cars and tractor-trailers along the way. Four cops eventually joined in a chase, with two speeding ahead of her to try to block her path. She nearly smashed into the cruisers before finally pulling onto the median. One of the officers described her as "unsteady on her feet" and having eyes that were "glassy looking and watery." With slurred speech, she insisted that she had no idea she was going the wrong way. It was her second impaired driving charge in four months, following an arrest while visiting a relative in Ohio in which the arresting officer had found 18 nonprescribed Vicodin and some crushed Adderall in her car.

On the voice mail, Kim thanks Rob for coming to her rescue. "I just want you to know I love you very much, and, um, and, um, I appreciate your friendship."

The Griners hated to see their friend of 30 years this broken, and they tried to lift her spirits. But there continued to be troubling moments, like when Rob took Kim to a Pacers game and noticed she was having trouble staying awake. In fact, the more he saw her, the more he became concerned about a new friend she'd started hanging around, a struggling 48-year-old waiter named Tony Marshall, who had been convicted of cocaine possession.

In an interview, Marshall says, "I had a drinking problem, and she had a pill problem. We were trying to help each other."

In early February, with the very real prospect of jail hanging over Kim's head in one or both of the impaired driving cases, she and her new companion headed out on a two-week trip to Florida. Marshall calls it a "sabbatical" from their troubles.

The two went to Flagler Beach to see Kim's old friends and surprise Megan Boda just before her 33rd birthday. "She looked healthy," Megan says. "She even made a joke about sobriety."

On Thursday, Feb. 27, as they were driving back to Indiana, Marshall says that Kim confided to him that she was using heroin for the first time since her days in Flagler Beach. He says he was stunned because Kim had been seeing a therapist and because he and she hadn't done more than drink together. "That's how I found out," he says. "That was the beginning of the end of the whole thing."

The next day, Kim seemed resolute when she saw Cohen, who helped her run errands because she no longer had a license. Cohen brought a small gift, a plaque embossed with the phrase: "One day at a time." On Saturday, Marshall says he made plans with Kim to drive her to a Narcotics Anonymous meeting the next day.

But on Sunday, Marshall overslept and missed his appointment. When Kim didn't respond to any of his texts, he drove to her townhouse, let himself in through the garage and looked around the living room. Not seeing any sign of her, he went to the second floor and into the bathroom, where he found her body sitting upright and fully clothed.

The coroner would conclude that she'd died of polysubstance overdose the prior day. The Indianapolis Metropolitan Police Department closed the case after the coroner's office labeled Wundrum's death an accident.

Cases Closed

Early on the afternoon of Friday, March 7, mourners began filtering into Conkle Funeral Home in Speedway, Indiana, to say goodbye to Kim. She was surrounded by lilacs and lilies and, of course, the blue orchids.

One of the mourners who came to say goodbye was a driver who worked for the Irsay family and had grown close to Kim on their countless trips over nearly a decade. He had to leave the service early, but promised to rejoin the group later at a hotel bar. That night, when someone asked him where he'd been, the driver explained that he'd been called away from the service to take Irsay out for the evening.

According to the source who asked the question, the driver said his boss wanted to go to a comedy club with his girlfriend.

Nine days later, at almost midnight, a police officer patrolling near Irsay's home in Carmel spotted his SUV stop and start, then stop and start again in the middle of the road. After the officer pulled him over for turning without signaling, Irsay had trouble finding his driver's license even though it was in plain sight in his open briefcase. The officer reported that the man standing before him was gaunt and his eyes were glassy. He fell backward when asked to touch the tip of a pen and couldn't stay balanced on one foot. "Numerous" bottles of pills were found in the front seat in a laundry bag, as well as $29,000 in the briefcase.

By the next day, Irsay's mug shot had gone viral, igniting questions about how one of the most prominent owners in the NFL could look like he'd just walked off the set of "Breaking Bad."

Initially, the cops charged Irsay with four felony counts of possessing controlled substances and a misdemeanor count of operating a vehicle while intoxicated. But prosecutors in Hamilton County dropped the possession counts after reporting that he provided proof of having the drugs legally. Andre Miksha, the county's chief prosecutor, declined to offer specifics on what kind of proof, saying only: "Mr. Irsay's possession of controlled substances did not violate the criminal code. I cannot provide more detail."

In the seven months since Kim Wundrum's death, Irsay hasn't publicly mentioned her name. His only extended comments about his own arrest came in a June interview in The Indianapolis Star with Bob Kravitz. "The disease aspect gets lost when you're talking about alcoholism and addiction," he said. "Even in 2014, there's still this stigma."

On Sept. 2, he pleaded guilty to a single misdemeanor count of impaired driving and got a suspended 60-day jail sentence. As he moved hurriedly down a courthouse stairwell, an "Outside the Lines" producer asked Irsay whether he cared to say anything about Kim Wundrum.

"I'm sorry," he said, shaking his head. When the producer asked again, Irsay's lawyer replied, "What about no don't you understand?"

One of his bodyguards later agreed to deliver a note asking for an interview. It went unreturned.

At least in part, that silence might have to do with her family's wishes. Rhonda Wundrum declined several requests for an interview. In an email on Oct. 15, she refused to discuss details, only to characterize information given to the Magazine from multiple sources as "inaccurate." In an email a day earlier, she had said: "Everything I know about Jim is good. He has extended generosities and helped countless people ... my sister included. I hope you choose to refrain from trying to hurt a truly good man and let my beautiful sister rest in peace."


But Irsay still might have to answer questions about Kim Wundrum and their drug use. An Indiana judge recently backed a request by Jami Martin's ex-husband, Greg, to have Irsay testify in a custody battle that begins on Jan. 27 about whether he's a negative influence on the Martins' children.

When he returned from his six-game NFL suspension on Oct. 10, Jim Irsay continued to entertain and entice Colts fans, sending out this nonsensical tweet as his first public statement:

"What can I say? I could say something, but nothing IS something; nothing isn't nothing, if I say it; it's something. No things are nothing things."

Irsay kept tweeting, but no explanation ever came.
Posted By: DeisleDawg Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 01:12 AM
Pure Football Forum (31 viewing)
Discuss the Cleveland Browns and other related PURE NFL football topics here; Players, Coaches, FA options, etc, as they pertain to the game of football in the NFL. Not to be confused with the "Gameday" forum, which is utilized for discussion of this week's game.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 01:15 AM
Next guy I want to talk about is Jameis Winston. ---Btw....I am not doing there in order any longer.

Winston was the first overall pick by TB. I never cared for the guy. Thought he was weird as weird can be. I did recognize his talent. Great arm, good pocket presence, nice size, etc. I just hated the off the field stuff. The situation in FSU's cafeteria is just one example of why I thought he was weird.

The guy comes into the NFL and turns the ball over a ton. Arians becomes his HC and he throws for 30 or maybe more picks. He did throw for more TDs and over 5,000 yards, but dang, he was a pick six machine.

TB cuts ties and he goes to New Orleans. He is paired w/Drew Brees, who is arguably the most intelligent qb of all-time when it comes to pre and post-snap reads. Jameis learns. Brees retires. The dude started off this past year playing excellent football and then blew out his knee. He has the skill set. I still question the mind. His eyes look crazy. But, he played very well last year before his injury and I think spending time w/Brees and Sean Payton had to have helped a lot. As an aside, I told my son [who is a huge Steelers fan] that they should have went after Winston last year. He did not agree. But, thank God they didn't.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 01:18 AM
What? The Watson civil complaints are part of pure football forum? I was trying to get the thread back on track after Pit, WSU, and 888 derailed it and I was hoping to bring the topic back to ranking QBs. Maybe I am misunderstanding your point? Are you okay w/those guys hijacking the thread and upset that I brought up the situation Wentz was in?
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 01:26 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
What? The Watson civil complaints are part of pure football forum? I was trying to get the thread back on track after Pit, WSU, and 888 derailed it and I was hoping to bring the topic back to ranking QBs. Maybe I am misunderstanding your point? Are you okay w/those guys hijacking the thread and upset that I brought up the situation Wentz was in?

It's funny ... this is the sort of comment that is cool and acceptable:

Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
j/c

idk about all NFL QBs, but by the end of the next two years I bet Baker is a top 10 starter. Just saying, for all the haters.
Baker still makes rookie mistakes. His ceiling has been reached.
File him under Heisman Winning QBs who failed at the next level

But start a discussion that Vers doesn't like and suddenly you get branded as "derailing a thread". Bash Baker and it's all good. But .....

Funny - we didn't have these sorts of posts and threads for such a long time ... I wonder what the common denominator is that has returned to recreate the issues.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 01:37 AM
Tua is next on my list.

Miami is in a tough situation w/Tue. They tanked for him and then he was injured in college. He fell to the 5th spot and they took him ahead of Herbert. No one was surprised because Herbert wasn't highly regarded by many people. They thought he was too nonchalant. Too passive. Well, then they both took the field as NFL qbs and the difference was immense. Herbert showed he was a true stud. Tua continued to battle injuries and Fitz was better than he was. There were all the rumors of the 'Phins wanting to trade for Watson. There was the Flores situation.

Miami went all in in FA. They traded for Hill. They brought in Edmonds and Mostert. They got a really good OT in Armstead. They kept Gesicki.

Is it enough? I don't know. I am not a fan of Tua's arm strength. I don't like how often he is injured. I do think he gets rid of the ball quick and he had to because his OL was terrible. I think he is a good dude, but am not certain as to how his teammates feel about him. I would say he is a longshot.

Anyone willing to help me out here and keep 888 at bay?
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 01:43 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Anyone willing to help me out here and keep 888 at bay?

Not entirely sure why you can't keep my name out of your posts, what's that about 4 posts or more where you mention me by name? Again - I thank you for not calling me evil, but ..... I like Tua a lot. Probably a lot more than he is given credit for. On Bone's list / breakdown - I think think you can win with him, not in spite of him. But you need a decent roster and he isn't winning you games by himself.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 01:45 AM
LOL
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 11:18 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
What? The Watson civil complaints are part of pure football forum? I was trying to get the thread back on track after Pit, WSU, and 888 derailed it and I was hoping to bring the topic back to ranking QBs. Maybe I am misunderstanding your point? Are you okay w/those guys hijacking the thread and upset that I brought up the situation Wentz was in?


If you look up "8th grade cheerleader Mom" on the internet, you will see that ^ post. 100%
Posted By: Iluvmyxstripper Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 12:17 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Next guy I want to talk about is Jameis Winston. ---Btw....I am not doing there in order any longer.

Winston was the first overall pick by TB. I never cared for the guy. Thought he was weird as weird can be. I did recognize his talent. Great arm, good pocket presence, nice size, etc. I just hated the off the field stuff. The situation in FSU's cafeteria is just one example of why I thought he was weird.

The guy comes into the NFL and turns the ball over a ton. Arians becomes his HC and he throws for 30 or maybe more picks. He did throw for more TDs and over 5,000 yards, but dang, he was a pick six machine.

TB cuts ties and he goes to New Orleans. He is paired w/Drew Brees, who is arguably the most intelligent qb of all-time when it comes to pre and post-snap reads. Jameis learns. Brees retires. The dude started off this past year playing excellent football and then blew out his knee. He has the skill set. I still question the mind. His eyes look crazy. But, he played very well last year before his injury and I think spending time w/Brees and Sean Payton had to have helped a lot. As an aside, I told my son [who is a huge Steelers fan] that they should have went after Winston last year. He did not agree. But, thank God they didn't.
I thought Winston would have been a good fit for the Browns.I know he threw for 30 INTs
That one year, but take away that year, he had a,decent TD to INT ratio.
Stefanski I believe could have gave Jameis more high % throws to work with
Thus less INTs...plus I think Tampa was playing from behind alot.that will lead
To more INTs
Posted By: bonefish Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 12:38 PM
Your take on Winston is precisely the way I feel about him.

He has the arm talent. His time behind Brees may have saved his career.

Before he got hurt. I was thinking wow maybe the light came on for this guy. It will be interesting to see how he does without Payton. Payton's offense was a good fit for the strengths of Winston.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 01:32 PM
Yeah, learning from Payton and Brees was huge for him. You raise another good point on how losing Payton might affect Winston.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 02:14 PM
No doubt that Qb and coach/team fit mean a lot. A bad fit isn't going to work well.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 03:24 PM
Which is the exact reason ("No doubt that QB and coach/team fit mean a lot. A bad fit isn't going to work well," I have questioned the scheme and play calling from Stefanski. Not once have I failed to admit that as it currently stands, Watson is an upgrade over Mayfield especially considering the different situation's they both experienced during their first 4-years. IMHO, Stefanski is not going to adjust his offensive scheme to play to Watson's skill set. I fully expect a very similar offense to what he called in 2019, 2020, and 2021 with very moderate adjustments. The Browns will continue to be a run first team using multiple TE sets with a controlled passing game which would not be playing to Watson's skill set.

Considering a 2018 Watson had Hopkins, Fuller, Demaryius Thomas, Coutee and Carter at the WR positions and the 5th best scoring defense, the 2022 Browns right now are looking very doubtful of coming anywhere close to the 2018 Texans WR room. In addition, with 3 current major openings still on the defensive line and a weakness at LB, the chances of the Browns improving on their 14th ranked scoring defense of 21.8 ppg is looking very doubtful. This will, of course, put Watson in a different situation than when he was with Houston as he will be expected to do more with less in a highly competitive division. Considering, IMHO, that the scheme will continue to focus on the run and controlled passing game, something will have to give if the Browns are going to be successful in 2022. I'm betting it won't be Stefanski!
Posted By: bonefish Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 03:40 PM
You are entitled to your opinions. That is what this Board is about.

There really is no way to have a discussion about what will happen in the future regarding KS.

All I can do is say I think you are wrong about him which proves nothing.

So when the 2022 is over I will be glad to bring the topic back up for discussion.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 03:45 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
It probably won't work because those in charge allow three guys to dominate this

Still whining I see. Maybe you should start your own message board since you complain so much how this one works. They're certainly not going to allow to dictate how they run it. And obviously that's your real problem here. Just like before you left in the first place.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 04:34 PM
Back to the thread topic for a moment.

Jalen Hurts: He progressed a lot last year. He made some nice throws from the pocket and he is a good runner. I think he is a high-character guy and I think a locker room can get behind him as their leader. He did lay an egg in the playoffs and he holds to ball too long. Not a natural passer of the football. I think he fits into the "placeholder" tier.

Daniel Jones: He's a good athlete and has a nice arm. Pretty tough guy. His OLs have been terrible. With that said, he turns the ball over way too much and has some awful moments w/his decision making. I think he fits into the "looking to replace" tier.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 06:22 PM
When scouts use terms like "the ball jumps from his hands." That is not Tua.

I have not watched much of him so I can not say with conviction what he really is. The whole situation in Miami makes the Browns look like honor role.

The owner tanked games. He fired a head coach for dubious reasons. They were courting Watson and saying "atta boy" to Tua.

Then the owner reacts to Tyreek Hill like a kid chasing soap bubbles.

IMO Miami is headed for the cellar.

Tua is a good athlete. He has mobilty. He can not deliver accurate throws from the pocket downfield. He looks like a college quarterback to me.

I don't have a thing against the guy. I just do not see a NFL starter.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/18/22 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish
They were courting Watson and saying "atta boy" to Tua.

That part sounds familiar.
Posted By: eotab Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/19/22 12:47 PM
Number 1... Aaron Rodgers, he's in his prime and I use to tape his games since he was a sophmore in college. Thought he was technically the perfect QB. Maybe the biggest mistake we made in the draft. I'm so glad we took WR Edwards rolleyes

#2 Brady...getting up there in age and has lost a step now he's slow...wait he's always been slow...lol still his prime is gone time will catch up to him when he gets hit and pees red.

#3 Mahomes but we will see how much of that is Hill and Kelce has to be getting a bit old turning the corner of prime.

I will stop there. A lot of good ones the kid on the Chargers but I just haven't seen enough of him to put him up with the elites.

But what I hear is he is the best of the youngsters.

jmho
Posted By: Dawgs4Life Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/21/22 09:07 AM
J/c

Late to this topic, but I agree with the idea of “guys who can win” and “guys who you can win with” and “guys you can win in spite of”

Watson is probably between the first two categories for me, trending towards that top tier.

I’d probably rather have Mahomes, Allen, Herbert, and Rodgers. Brady is just so old that he’s almost in his own category. Burrow is still young, but certainly trending to that elite level.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/21/22 10:06 AM
I don't worry too much about rankings. Part of that is the team around the QB. Stafford is a good example. With the Linons he looked good but wasn't considered all that good by those ranking players. With the Rams he was good enough to win a SB.

Watson looks to be a clear upgrade over Baker. Where that ranks him I don't really care. I have a feeling he ranks high enough that we should have every chance we need to win a SB, at least from a QB standpoint.

That doesn't mean we will. We still need him to play well, as well as the other players on the team. If everybody else does their part, Watson will rank high enough.

Also, to me it isn't so much about the plays a QB makes. It's about the bad plays they don't make.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/21/22 12:12 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
I don't worry too much about rankings. Part of that is the team around the QB. Stafford is a good example. With the Linons he looked good but wasn't considered all that good by those ranking players. With the Rams he was good enough to win a SB.

Watson looks to be a clear upgrade over Baker. Where that ranks him I don't really care. I have a feeling he ranks high enough that we should have every chance we need to win a SB, at least from a QB standpoint.

That doesn't mean we will. We still need him to play well, as well as the other players on the team. If everybody else does their part, Watson will rank high enough.

Also, to me it isn't so much about the plays a QB makes. It's about the bad plays they don't make.


Peen, I started the thread to generate some football talk and I thought it might be fun rather than all the annoying bickering that dominates things around here.

I hear you about Stafford and Lions, but would like to point out how the Rams could not get it done w/a former overall #1 pick in Goff and then won it all when they changed QBs. Furthermore, TB was 7 and 9 w/one qb and then brought. in Brady and won the Super Bowl the very next year. QBs who can elevate others are huge!!!
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/21/22 12:20 PM
Disclaimer: I'm quoting Peen below...but am not critiquing nor debating his point...NRTU style without the j/c.

Originally Posted by Ballpeen
...We still need him to play well, as well as the other players on the team. If everybody else does their part, Watson will rank high enough.

Some would say that means that everything must be perfect for him to be successful. A phrase I've called BS on numerous times. But any/every QB needs players around him to help the team succeed. DPJ as your #1 is far from being considered "HELP"...and I really like the guy.

My on-field concern for our QB is that we have (1) legit NFL WR and a big 'ole helping of potential at TE. We have a LT who looks more and more like a RT and a RT coming off of two serious injuries. If Cooper misses a game or three or one of the OTs gets dinged, we will be in instant distress.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/21/22 12:53 PM
Receiver depth is a concern.

I have heard that the Browns like Jamarcus Bradley. DPJ has shown consistent improvement.

Schwartz is an unknown for now. He will be expected to contribute more. He is a guy that should be paid attention to early on in workouts and Camp. Part of the reason he was drafted in the third was his intelligence.

I would like to see another veteran. I don't think Jarvis is in play. I don't think he will play for what the Browns want to pay him.

I am positive we will dip into the draft for guys but that is never a sure thing.

Will Fuller makes some sense because he played with Watson.

There could be veteran guys that will be cut. I don't think we need a star receiver. I think we need a savy vet like Jarvis.
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/21/22 12:54 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Peen, I started the thread to generate some football talk and I thought it might be fun rather than all the annoying bickering that dominates things around here.

For the love of God, just say what you have to say.

Quote
I hear you about Stafford and Lions, but would like to point out how the Rams could not get it done w/a former overall #1 pick in Goff and then won it all when they changed QBs. Furthermore, TB was 7 and 9 w/one qb and then brought. in Brady and won the Super Bowl the very next year. QBs who can elevate others are huge!!!

Stafford didn't elevate a darn thing his entire career in DET with that perennially sad-sack roster. How much elevating do you really have to do with Kupp, Jefferson, a cancer-free OBJ at #3WR, Higbee and Aaron Donald leading a top 5 defense? Goff couldn't get it done with THAT team around him. Goff being a former #1 is as meaningless as Baker being a former #1.

Brady is a completely different animal. But...when he went to TB they had a dominant defense...AND...Evans, Godwin, and a not-yet-off-the-rocker A Brown...with Gronk. J Winston - also a 1st overall pick - also couldn't get it done with THAT roster.

Stafford > Goff....Brady > Winston...but neither of those guys were charged with making chicken salad out of chicken droppings.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/21/22 02:19 PM
There are reasons why teams are willing to give up a ton of assets for an elite qb. The Rams, Broncos, and Browns gave up a tremendous haul to acquire elite qbs. Of course, all qbs are dependent on the talent around them, but the elite qbs can overcome things that average to below average qbs can not. Look at Watson for example. The guy has all these court cases looming in his future. Multiple teams were willing to offer the farm for the guy despite the civil cases and the negative attention that accompanies signing him.

On the other hand, you have a qb like Baker and teams don't want to trade for him even though he is not making nearly as much money as the top qbs. I realize that Baker's personality and there are questions about what kind of a teammate plays into that, but your value is what the market says it is. All the wind-blowing coming out of the mouths of Baker apologists isn't going to change that fact.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/21/22 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
I don't worry too much about rankings. Part of that is the team around the QB. Stafford is a good example. With the Linons he looked good but wasn't considered all that good by those ranking players. With the Rams he was good enough to win a SB.

Watson looks to be a clear upgrade over Baker. Where that ranks him I don't really care. I have a feeling he ranks high enough that we should have every chance we need to win a SB, at least from a QB standpoint.

That doesn't mean we will. We still need him to play well, as well as the other players on the team. If everybody else does their part, Watson will rank high enough.

Also, to me it isn't so much about the plays a QB makes. It's about the bad plays they don't make.


Peen, I started the thread to generate some football talk and I thought it might be fun rather than all the annoying bickering that dominates things around here.

I hear you about Stafford and Lions, but would like to point out how the Rams could not get it done w/a former overall #1 pick in Goff and then won it all when they changed QBs. Furthermore, TB was 7 and 9 w/one qb and then brought. in Brady and won the Super Bowl the very next year. QBs who can elevate others are huge!!!


I understand and wasn't trying to put the thread down. Most of the time I no longer feel like typing out all of my thoughts in detail and just sort of skipped to the summation.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/21/22 05:05 PM
I figured that. Just making sure. We're good.
Posted By: PETE314 Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 04/21/22 06:09 PM
I don't know I think a case could be made that Stafford raised the level of his receivers. The following had their best years in Detroit under Stafford (minimum 100 receptions)

Eric Ebron
Joique Bell
Nate Burleson (best years early in Minny...went to Seattle with Russell but then did much better in Detroit with Stafford)
Golden Tate
Marvin Jones
Kenny Golloday
you might even throw in Theo Riddick (almost no playing time after Detroit tho)

Is this definitive proof. No...but it is something to consider...As these guys werem't huge stars but were able to get deals later or do better in Detroit with Stafford...Tons of other parts of the equation to consider..but did want to throw this out there...

Not going to say Calvin Johnson because he makes QB 's look better ...not the other way around...LOL
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 07/11/22 03:10 PM
I started this thread back in April. I ranked many QBs. I started off w/the top tier and then the second tier. In no certain order, I had Mahomes, Rodgers, Allen, Brady, Burrow, Herbert, and Watson in the tip-tier of all QBs. That's seven.

In the next tier, I put Stafford, Wilson, Lamar and Carr. If I would have been just doing a top 10, I would have omitted Carr.


ESPN's Jeremy Fowler just polled a group of more than 50 people around the NFL, including players, coaches, executives and scouts to compile a list of the league's top 10 QBs. Here is the list:

1. Rodgers
2. Mahomes
3. Allen
4. Brady
5. Burrow
6. Stafford
7. Herbert
8. R. Wilson
9. Watson
10. Dak

Apparently, DAK beat out Lamar in a tie-breaker.

My top 7 was close to theirs. They put Stafford in the top 7 instead of Watson. The only other change is that they have DAK ahead of Lamar. Right now, it seems that the Lamar omission is the biggest controversy.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 07/11/22 04:05 PM
Thinking about this a bit more, I don't see how Dak can be ranked ahead of Lamar. Dak is up there. Top 12. Maybe top 11, but Lamar has done more and is more important to his team.

Also, while Stafford won the Super Bowl, he throws a lot of pics. Not sure he belongs at 6. I'd put him in the top 10 for sure, but not 6th. I kinda get Watson at 9 because he didn't play last year and there are questions about this upcoming year. I'd put him in the top 7 if he sees the field.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 07/11/22 04:26 PM
At some point I believe age is a factor.

Brady kind of stands alone because of what he has done. He retired and then decided to play this year. How will he play? I don't know.

Russell Wilson is with a new team. I think he is a great player but this season. Not real sure about how he will do.

If this about ability today and all other factors are not in play.

I would have DW number five. IMO he is better than Herbert, Burrow and Stafford. As a total package yes I think DW is better than those guys.
Posted By: Iluvmyxstripper Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 07/11/22 04:31 PM
QBs are so hard to rank. Everyone criteria and paRameses
Are so different and valid to their liking

I'm going to go on the basis of upside, which way their
Ability to improve is trending and what they done from recent
Years

1.Tom Brady
2. Joe Burrow
3. Josh Allen
4. Justin Herbert
5. Patrick Mahomes
6. Matt Stafford
7. Aaron Rogers
8. Lamar Jackson
9. Dak Prescott
10. DeShawn Watson
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 07/11/22 09:48 PM
Watson took over the #1 creeper spot now that Big Ben has retired.
Posted By: SuperBrown Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 07/12/22 01:12 AM
1.Baker Mayfield
2.Baker Mayfield
3.Baker Mayfield
4.Baker Mayfield
5.Baker Mayfield
Posted By: jacksondawg Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 07/27/22 10:58 PM
Watson 1win 2 losses in the playoffs
Is every QB elite?
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 07/28/22 01:46 AM
I feel like I need to say it is important for people to tell the truth and to bear true witness, not false witness.
It is important to tell the truth to not tell lies.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 07/28/22 03:01 AM
In this 3 vs 6 matchup of Kyler Murray vs. Steelers Quarterback: well I took 2 random games in my mind.
3C, Kyler Murray, Ariz
6C, Steelers QB situation.

Kyler Murray Ariz, week ten 2020.
Steelers Week 4, 2020. Now, right away after checking, I realized the steelrs cheated, but they often do, as Ben was the Qb and Ben is now retired. I had no idea about these games.

Arizona played the Bills in what was 'billed Nov. sixteenth 2020 as a game that put Kyler Murray into the top i0 of Qb's it was the Hail Murray game, a real emotion lifter, as the Cards beat the bills 32-30 in the final seconds.
Kyler Murray ran for a Td, Ran for 2 tds on the day and threw for one. So this should be a cakewalk to move Kyler Murray into the 2nd round of Quarterbacks final 4, but.

Week 4 2020 of the Steelers just happened to be a little game which was postponed from October 4th ish until October 25th ish and the Steelrs won, and became 6-0 over the Titans who had a winning record. This was another big win.
This is going to come down to coin flips, Kyler Murray vs. Steeler Quarterback.
Pre coin flip stipulations, this is favored to Murray (because of the emotion, and the ints. and the more meaningful of two very meaningful games,) so, steelrs must win flip one, and get 2 consecutive first, and if it's a tie at the end Ariz wins. prior to the first flip it is decided that for the first 3 flips the steelrs will be heads, az tails,
(Decided by the steelers are head thinkers, and AZ St U. has tails, the 2nd same call as the first, a random blue color decided whether the 3rd or 4th heads or tails call would be inverted and since it was the 4th there was no need for another.)
and the final flip, steelers tails, AZ heads. then the coin flip, with the first coin.
I. heads, pit is still alive.
2. heads, pit got 2 consecutive first,
flip 3. tails, that is Arizonas' win.
flip 4, heads, that is Arizonas' win. At the end there is a tie, which means Kyler Murray beats out Steelers Qb in this first round 3. vs. 6 matchup. Kyler Murray needs another Hail Murray to get into the 2nd round.
( There was little doubt as in that game that day Roethlisburger had 2 tds but 3 ints. vs the titans. 32-49 268 2 tds, 3 ints.)
Murray had the hail murray, perhaps his most storied game, against the bills.
( I figure it's as reasonable a way as any to rank Quarterbacks. )
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 07/28/22 08:04 AM
Someone tried to post a link to a (paid) Athletic Article the other day that ranked NFL QB's in Tiers.

Watson was 9th - in Tier 2. Some comments from league GM, Scouts, Coaches etc: One couldn't believe the Browns gave that contract to a tier 2 guy. One couldn't believe the Browns wanted him with all the allegations and uncertainty. One said he's a #1 - legit and you can put the game on him. One said it won't be hard to put Watson back in Tier 1 once he starts playing.

Baker was 19th - in tier 3 behind Cousins, Garoppolo, Tannehill and Mac Jones .... One said he won't turn up and said he won't become a Tier 2. One said he's a tier 3 with upside. One said he needs to be humble if his career is to be extended. One said there is something missing and (incorrectly) stated no players voiced support for Baker. One said the team has to be perfect for him to win.

Based on the play on the field I think Watson will be better than 9th. Hard to adjust or factor in the off the field things when you are talking about ability/ranking.

Of all the QB rankings the two that stood out to me as flat wrong:

Mac Jones at 18. I don't think he is very good and rank a few of the QB's below him as better than him.

Mitch Tribisky is listed as the 33rd ranked QB and the highest rated Steeler QB. I think with a stable environment and good coaching, Mitch will be several spots higher - although clearly we'd all love it if he was indeed the worst starter in the NFL.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 07/28/22 08:19 AM
J/C


It's all just people putting out rankings. Take it for what it is worth, and it isn't worth much.

After the first 4-5 guys, you could rank players any which way and it wouldn't really matter. I just rank players as good enough or not good enough. You might have a few guys in the maybe area, but the odds say they probably aren't.

I will say this is for players who have played and have been in the league for 2-3 years. You have to have some sort of sample size.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Ranking NFL QBs - 07/28/22 11:25 AM
I think most of the rankings put out by the respected sites are fairly consistent. PFF, The Athletic, Fowler's ESPN list that polls players, coaches, and executives are three good sources. I tried to post the Athletic's rankings the other day and for some reason it would not show up on the board. I can't figure out why. Maybe it was too long???
© DawgTalkers.net