This is just an opinion of what I think Wood's vision is for the defense.
This is his third year and his defense has evolved as the personnel has changed.
If his first year Woods caught a lot of heat that I felt was unjustified. He was limited by the players especially in the secondary. Last year Berry was able to address the defense and he did. He signed JJ, Hill, Clowney, Takk, Walker, Malik Jackson, Malik McDowell. He drafted Newsome, JOK, Togiai, Fields, and LeCounte.
Walker was resigned. Takk injured. Malik Jackson, Malik McDowell one year deals and both are gone. Clowney was a one year deal but they are trying to resign him and it is important that they do.
Rather than getting technical about naming the covers and percetages played etc. I am trying to determine what he wants and how he envisions his defense to be played. Signing Ward to an extension reveals something.
Newsome and Ward are both versitile corners. They both can play any type of coverage. Hill is sub corner for the slot and is a spot blitzer.
Safety is the key. Rather than playing traditional SS and FS roles. IMO Woods wants JJ and Delpit to be non specific and do both. They have that abilty. Harrison was hurt last year but he is more of a SS who plays the run well and can cover some.
Walker is a veteran who is smart and can cover. Taki can play zone but is a run support guy.
JOK is the key. Phillips has shown he reacts well and can play in space. JOK can do everything. He play outside and cover the TE. He can move in and cover the slot. He can play zone and cover the flat to take away sweeps and checkdowns to the back. He can shoot a gap and blitz. He can turn the RPO and force that play.
Woods base defense is 4-2-5. He wants his DE's to get off quick and be disruptive. Quarterback pressure is the "prime motive."
His interior DL can be mixed and matched to down and distance. The four man rotation at DT should be a mixtue of technique. Gap control and collapse the pocket. Keep them fresh and active. One guy like Perrion Winfrey who is quick and can penetrate and the other like Travis Jones who can hold a gap closed. This will give his linebackers the ability to play in space.
I think Woods sees the defense as a fluid zone with some players in man. Corners push to the boundaries. Safety's playing in to out. Backers in space with freedom to gaps.
Woods came from being a secondary coach. I believe his vision is based upon zone pockets that can be mixed with man coverage. The players drafted and free agents signed are guys who were brought here to play his scheme.
That is why continuity is so very important. Delpit, JOK, Phillips, JJ are really important to what he wants to do. Ward and Newsome give him the freedom to use those guys. Greedy and Hill are both excellent support guys.
The overall goal is spacial coverage and severe pass pressure.
Browns Defense Under Joe Woods is Good, has Path to be Great The performance by the Cleveland Browns against the Green Bay Packers was the last major hurdle for this defense to overcome in order to prove it could compete with anyone. Now, defensive coordinator Joe Woods can focus on getting even better. PETE SMITHDEC 26, 2021
From Myles Garrett and Denzel Ward to Josiah Bronson and Tim Harris, 32 different players have taken snaps on defense for the Cleveland Browns so far this season. Impermanence hasn't prevented that side of the ball from improving over the course of the year culminating in passing their biggest remaining test of the season against the Green Bay Packers.
When head coach Kevin Stefanski hired Joe Woods to be his defensive coordinator in 2020, the team spent all of its energy improving the offense save for one major move; drafting safety Grant Delpit in the second round of the NFL Draft. Delpit was penciled to start at free safety but suffered an Achilles' injury in August, ending his season before it even started.
Sure, the Browns signed a batch of temps to fill in on defense last year, hoping to find a few worth keeping. Malcolm Smith, Joe Jackson and M.J. Stewart are a few that remain from that process. Knowing the challenges ahead and despite often being outmanned, that defense was able to survive throughout the 2020 season, including a victory in the playoffs.
Woods was rewarded for his patience as general manager Andrew Berry went out and transformed the secondary, adding John Johnson III and Troy Hill in free agency, then drafting Greg Newsome in the first round of the 2021 NFL Draft. The team also signed Jadeveon Clowney and Takkarist McKinley to the defensive line.
None of those five players were on the field for the Browns taking on the Packers in Lambeau field, but the defense persisted. Denzel Ward, Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah and Myles Garrett were out there, but the rest of the defense was largely made up of young players trying to prove their viability in the league, be it with the Browns or elsewhere.
One of the few starters left standing, JOK now looks like a grizzled veteran, despite only playing 12 games. And though he was unable to play this game due to COVID-19, it's a similar feeling with Newsome.
A testament to the talent Berry has acquired as well as the consistency with which this Woods and the defensive staff teaches, players are being coached up to full speed quickly, which has proven a necessity this season.
The relative youth and inexperience of this defense made it prudent for Woods to keep the scheme simple. Focusing on three coverages (match quarters, Cover-3 and Cover-1), the Browns have grown both in confidence and effectiveness regardless of the personnel they have on the field.
That doesn't eliminate the ability to innovate as illustrated early in the game against the Packers. Woods utilized a two-man front on the defensive line with just their ends putting their hands on the ground lined up wide. Instead of a declared interior, the Browns went with a UFO or amoeba approach as three or four players were floating up near the line of scrimmage. On the snap, some would attack forward and others would drop back into coverage.
Necessity being the mother of invention, the Browns were down defensive tackles Malik Jackson and Jordan Elliott due to COVID-19 and needed to find a way to generate pressure on Aaron Rodgers as well as limit the workload for their remaining defensive tackle options. They employed linebackers like Sione Takitaki, an edge rusher in college, to attack up the middle, which led to some confusion for the offensive line.
It hasn't been an entirely smooth transition this year on defense. The team was expected to have a dominant defense out of the gate and it simply didn't happen that way. John Johnson III still hasn't become the player the Browns hope he will be, still can become, but the defense endured in spite of delayed gratification.
There have been four failures this season, including games against the Kansas City Chiefs, Los Angeles Chargers, Arizona Cardinals and New England Patriots. The Browns gave up a combined 162 points in those four games contrasted against 167 combined in their other 11. Three of those poor performances were against passers that could win with their arm while extending plays with their legs, raising questions about the viability of this defense in those matchups.
The performance against the Packers provided an affirmative answer to that particular question. A depleted Browns defense held the Packers to 24 points while continuing to improve their third down efficiency, the other notable bugaboo for the defense this season.
Looking ahead to 2022, the Browns defense will get better simply by getting healthy. Myles Garrett is hampered by a groin injury. John Johnson missed a game with a hamstring injury. Troy Hill is out with a knee ailment in addition to COVID-19.
They also need to keep adding to this unit, especially on the defensive line. It starts with re-signing Jadeveon Clowney, but doesn't stop there and should be a priority in the NFL Draft at least on the edge. If Clowney's durability wasn't its own reason to keep adding talent, the Browns won't have Takkarist McKinley back next year after tearing his Achilles'.
Having Garrett along with Clowney gives the Browns the freedom to focus on adding talent they can develop while also putting them in position to succeed, enabling them to make an early impact. Having two players on rookie deals for four years behind Garrett and Clowney would be a luxury that could enable the Browns defense not be just respected but feared.
Contrast that against the defensive tackle position where the Browns have youth and need proven talent. Malik McDowell, Jordan Elliott and Tommy Togiai should all be back with the Browns next year with Elliott the most experienced of the trio, entering what will be his third season. Adding another draft pick to the mix when they need impact is counterintuitive. It could work, but it doesn't seem the best use of resources. The Browns aren't likely to make a big splash, but this is the position that stands out to spend free agent dollars.
Depending on how the Browns proceed with pending free agent safety Ronnie Harrison along with the overall importance of the position to their scheme, they will need to keep looking to add more help there. No team can have too many corners and the Browns will want to give themselves depth behind Troy Hill and Greedy Williams, who will both be in the final year of their respective deals.
With the back end of the defense having a year to fully digest the base coverage scheme and feel each other out, look for Woods to try to improve their blitz packages for next season. That would diversify how this defense can attack opponents, increasing what teams have to prepare for without really adding anything coverage-wise. It would simply mean putting in more work in straight man coverage.
The Browns have been inconsistent when they've brought pressure, giving up the lion's share of explosive plays under these looks despite only blitzing a little over 20 percent of drop backs per TruMedia and Pro Football Focus.
A combination of blown coverages and simply not getting home when sending pressure has left the Browns defense vulnerable, often exposed. Woods likes to blitz in long down and distance situations to get the ball out of the quarterback's hands quickly, then rally to the ball, tackling it short of the line to gain.
That would be the first area where the Browns would benefit, but it expands how the Browns can disrupt opposing offenses. Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah's straight line speed and explosion stood out as compelling reasons to blitz him his rookie season. Overachieving in other areas and the Browns defensive line able to create its own pressure, blitzing him became less critical. He was doing so much work as a run and chase defender, a key reason the Browns have been effective rallying to the football limiting the damage done by completed passes.
When JOK was initially drafted, it was on the heels of the Tampa Bay Buccaneers using linebacker Devin White to terrorize opponents as a second level pass rusher against athletic quarterbacks, including a dominating performance in the Super Bowl against the Kansas City Chiefs and Patrick Mahomes.
The Browns internally compared JOK to Fred Warner of the San Francisco 49ers, but it's difficult to imagine White didn't leave an impression. The Dallas Cowboys and their use of Micah Parsons isn't going to be lost on the Browns either.
The other goal the Browns will have is to get Grant Delpit to be able to function in every aspect of the safety position, including the free safety role Woods envisioned him playing as a rookie. Delpit, coming off the Achilles' he suffered has improved over the course of the year with experience as well as getting further away from the injury.
If Delpit is confident playing single-high in addition to split safety roles, that would allow the Browns to further disguise their coverage looks and let John Johnson III be the versatile option envisioned when he was signed as an impact free agent opposed to solely operating as the defense's last line of defense.
There's nothing wrong with Johnson playing free safety. He has shown capable to be great at it, but if the defense can vary their looks, jump into every coverage they run including an added wrinkle of forcing the offense to identify the safety roles every play, it's one more element that provides an advantage for the defense and leads to possible mistakes for them to exploit.
It helps to illustrate why Joe Woods was not only the right person to install and lead this defense, but also understands that continuing to add and evolve that side of the ball will be critical to keep offenses off balance and stay ahead of the curve.
Q is a good dude. I am a subscriber. I like how he handles himself.
He has good content. He brings in guys from the North. They have fun talking football. They kid around. It is enjoyable.
Burns is knowledgeable. Has a straight line point of view.
IMO the Browns defense has a chance to be really good. As mentioned in their take Clowney is important. We are not going to find what Clowney can do with pick 44. If lucky we could find a guy who "may" develop.
I am not super concerned about the interior. I wonder if Sheldon would come back? He is FA. I like that can rush and play 3, 4, and 5.
The interior is where I am unsure how Woods wants to play it. I guessed in my take.
I am concerned about the DT's. We have an assortment of scrubs IMO.
If a center can block one of our DT's, that team can then slide a guard over to double Garrett and more or less take him out of the game.
If Garrett was to miss a few games, how good would our defense be? Well, that is pretty much what can happen if teams can double him up every critical pass play.
Hey, I'm not the guy to wow anyone with true x's and o's. That's more up your alley, Vers. You and others do a much better job in that department.
My thoughts on defensive scheme? Quit cutting off the upside of our talent because you're afraid of the downside. I truly, truly think that our "guard rails" on the defensive chart over-emphasize limiting big plays... by refraining from blitzing LBs and safeties. I feel like we are so scared to "live and die" by that sword that we succumb to a million stabs with an ice-pick instead. Teams dominate in TOP... and young, even rookie QBs, are made to feel waaay too comfortable.
Early last season, after a dominating defensive performance against the Bears, Woods message in the PC was clear -- (not verbatim) "It's obvious that our defensive players excelled when I gave them the opportunity to play more instinctively". He said we could expect more of what we had already seen (except way too rarely imo), as the season progressed.
We followed that game by giving Cousins all the time in the world, all day, and barely eeked out a win. Then we let Herbert stand back and play hero ball while playing a vanilla defense for four quarters... and returned home with our tails between our legs. That's not gonna cut it in this league if you want to be top dawg.
We are solid on the back end. Newsome passed the eye test even quicker than Ward. Ward had a lot of "splash" straight out of the gate his rookie campaign, but Newsome played with much more consistency and discipline. Bookend CBs is a pretty special thing in this league. Greedy and other quality depth has us with a big check mark next to "solid", if not "exceptional".
There is no reason not to implement more "looks" and blitz packages into the middle. It's not even a question in my eyes.
I watched Delpit, JOK and Troy Hill all excel in any designed blitz package. Not sure you could have even asked for more. I was particularly surprised by Hill's efficiency. JOK? He was launched on the play that put Lamar down for the count in '21. Hell, even Takitaki looked the part when his number was called. JJIII expressed frustration a few times with "scheme" and uninspired performance, though he was quick to point the finger at himself and "team" rather than pointing a finger at Woods. I think a lot of the question marks going into this season need to be answered by Woods; his scheme and his play-calling during the ebb and flow of "game day".
Up front is an asset that has become our Achilles Heel. Myles and our insistence on being "a defense predicated on creating pressure up front". How many times have we heard that? We need to become a defense where that fact is the icing on the cake, not the cake itself. So here we are again with Myles and a bunch of "fill in the blanks".
I hope we start to adapt into a more dynamic, instinctual defense... we have more than enough speed and talent.
And yes, as I said in the other thread, we need more "nasty". I want that DE (or DT) that stomps around like someone stole his pop-tart when someone else makes a play. Fired-up on all cylinders, high-motor, and angry. I love Myles, but he has never been that guy... we need that guy.
I am concerned about the DT's. We have an assortment of scrubs IMO.
If a center can block one of our DT's, that team can then slide a guard over to double Garrett and more or less take him out of the game.
If Garrett was to miss a few games, how good would our defense be? Well, that is pretty much what can happen if teams can double him up every critical pass play.
Peen...we agree that the Browns need to put a higher priority on the defensive tackle position. I posted the following info in another thread but will post it again to show what low priority the Browns have assigned to the DT position.
This is a 6 year record of the Browns attempt to address the defensive needs at DT, via the draft...
...Year...rnd drafted........name..... ..2016.........6.......... Caleb Brantley ..2017.........0.......... No DTs drafted ..2018.........0.......... No DTs drafted ..2019.........0.......... No DTs drafted ..2020.........3...........Jordan Elliott ..2021.........4...........Tommy Togiai
As we can see, the highest priority was spending a 3rd round pick on Jordan Elliot in the 2020 draft. The Browns need to do a better job finding the talent to upgrade the interior DL.
I think we agree. Myles IS the guy... He just "ain't that guy" (nasty). Myles will sack you, crack a joke, help you up and pat your @ss. That's fine, that's his personality... and make no mistake, I would never trade his talent and freak athleticism for a different personality. We'll just have to find "nasty" somewhere else, that's my only point.
I think we agree. Myles IS the guy... He just "ain't that guy" (nasty). Myles will sack you, crack a joke, help you up and pat your @ss. That's fine, that's his personality... and make no mistake, I would never trade his talent and freak athleticism for a different personality. We'll just have to find "nasty" somewhere else, that's my only point.
Some really good conversation thus far. I don't agree w/the prevent defense comment and I am not in full agreement about the blitz angle, but that's fine.
I read something about 3/4 of the way through the season about our coverages that might be a valid addition to this thread. I'll try and remember.
Also, one more thing.......bone, you said you really didn't want to talk about the technical aspects of coverages, but is it okay if I give a brief explanation of our most used coverages? I think that will aide in explaining "why" we do certain things on D. But, it's your thread and I'll honor that.
Last I heard he was running naked through the streets of Florida looking for a massage parlor. Soooo behind the tech curve.
Fate...so what you are saying is the Browns have him penciled in as a starter and they are preparing to give him a guaranteed contract making him the highest DT in football...right ?
It will be interesting to see if the Browns support McDowell and help him overcome his demons. Two Browns players, one on defense and one on offense and both attempting to overcome issues with the law.
Last I heard he was running naked through the streets of Florida looking for a massage parlor. Soooo behind the tech curve.
Fate...so what you are saying is the Browns have him penciled in as a starter and they are preparing to give him a guaranteed contract making him the highest DT in football...right ?
It will be interesting to see if the Browns support McDowell and help him overcome his demons. Two Browns players, one on defense and one on offense and both attempting to overcome issues with the law.
Have at it. I can talk x's and o's to the nitty gritty but I didn't want to lose people.
I like to hear what others think or their opinions about solutions or players.
I started this thread because Woods is now in his third year. He has gotten players to fit what he wants to do.
Diving into Tampa two, or cover three etc. can leave some in the wind. I was trying to express the vision Woods has for his defense on a conceptional level.
As long as it stays with football I don't care where it goes. This is a new team with new players. I am not really interested in rehashing the past.
Thanks bone. I won't delve deep. Folks get bored by that. I'll just briefly explain our coverages so it adds context to our discussion. I appreciate you talking football.
Okay, I remember reading a few articles on PFF and other outlets about coverages that Wood's deployed around the 3/4 point of last season. It was something like we were in zone coverage for over 300 plays and in man for around 80. That's probably a fairly smart percentage due to how many rub routes there are in the NFL, especially in the red zone and in short yardage situations. I can even argue that a lot of first down plays utilize rub routes. Oh, in case rub routes isn't a familiar term, think about setting a pick in basketball.
The QB rating was around 100 in man. Around 80 in zone.
Yards per attempt were almost identical.
Completion percentage was about 8 points better [for the defense] in man than zone.
Sack rate in zone was better.
What else? 1st down was better for D on first down, worse on 3rd down.
So, consider this: We played some man, which is called Cover 1 or Cover zero. We really didn't play much cover 0. Cover 3 and Quarters were our main zone coverages, but of course, we played some other zone coverages or you would become too predictable.
Man is called Cover 1. That is where everyone but one guy [typically the FS] plays man and the FS provides help by rolling his coverage to a certain receiver.
Cover 3 is what I predominately ran when I coached. You divide the field into thirds. The safeties are in between the hash marks. You often play them high and low. The high is to roll coverages to a certain receiver. The low coverage is to cover the flat. Playing two high safeties is Cover 2. We did this some, but not as much as Cover 3. The corners in Covre 3 play outside the hashmarks. The sideline is their support and often a FS will provide over the top help and SS will help in the flat.
Quarters is not a prevent defense even though it is designed to stop vertical routes. On the other hand, it is very effective against the run because you have 4 guys in press coverage. Oh wait.......did I leave something out? Think Quarters. Four guys responsible for covering a 4th of the vertical field. It's way more complicated than that, but let's just get a visual. So, you have the aspect of press coverage like Cover 1 [man] provides, while having the advantage of zone coverage that can help reduce the potency of rub routes. Quarters also allow you to blitz more from the secondary. Think about how we brought guys like Hill on blitzes on 3rd and long.
I won't offer any opinions on our scheme right now. I would rather you guys just contemplate the information combined w/the real life results. Deduce your own conclusions and hopefully we can discuss football w/out all the BS. I will come back later and offer my opinions, but I am not certain if my opinions are worthy or not.
[color:#FFFFCC] Anyone know the status of Malik McDowell..?
Last I heard he was running naked through the streets of Florida looking for a massage parlor. Soooo behind the tech curve.
Fate...so what you are saying is the Browns have him penciled in as a starter and they are preparing to give him a guaranteed contract making him the highest DT in football...right ?
It will be interesting to see if the Browns support McDowell and help him overcome his demons. Two Browns players, one on defense and one on offense and both attempting to overcome issues with the law.
Malik McDowell was Woods best Defensive Tackle ...
...25 yrs old ...15 games/14 starts ...33 combined tackles ...19 solo tackles ...3.0 sacks ...7 tackles for loss ...5 QB hits
McDowell is not a worthless piece of crap..he is the Browns best DT by a wide margin. He has one off the field issue that needs to be investigated and he deserves the same opportunity to address whatever issue might have altered his judgement and behavior that one and only time as a member of the Browns.
IMO, Malik McDowell deserves the same support from the Browns that others on the team are getting.
Please go for the x's and O's I'm sure it will be appreciated by those who love football. I apologize cause I love reading and learning sometimes I even disagree but I cannot post like I use to. I am on so many drugs that my attention span just is not there to post technical...it so hard cause Inside I get it and see it but I just can't put what I know into words. But I still like to read others and thank you to you all for contributing.
Togiai has the potential to be a good inside player.
So did all the scrubs we have played at the position. That doesn't mean he will, but I will bet you a box of donuts we will be talking about his potential until we release or don't sign him.
You live in Atlanta. I Chattanooga. I'll be happy to bring you a box. We could meet at some Cracker Barrel in the middle...Calhoun/Adairsville. That sounds around the middle.
I am not talking a flat of Krispy Creams...a nice variety from a real bakery...not something you pick up at some grocery store.
Please go for the x's and O's I'm sure it will be appreciated by those who love football. I apologize cause I love reading and learning sometimes I even disagree but I cannot post like I use to. I am on so many drugs that my attention span just is not there to post technical...it so hard cause Inside I get it and see it but I just can't put what I know into words. But I still like to read others and thank you to you all for contributing.
tab, I wish you improved health for you. Health issues are so tough to deal with.
I won't post the entire article here because I don't think a lot of our posters like the technical aspects of the game. However, I will post a link about the basics of Quarters coverage. We played this quite a bit.
Tab I am pulling for you man. You have gone through a lot.
I know how important football and the Browns is to you. I am not a praying man but I think about your situation and wish you well.
We have a good roster. We have the potential to be a good team and have a good season. I want you around to enjoy that. Stick to your program of recovery. The Browns need that extra cheer.
I don't know what is the 'developmental' issue with Togiai but I remember reading of his prowess in weightlifting...yet that isn't/hasn't-yet translated to the filed. My concern with that then is his technique at this level vs college. Now...I wouldn't know good technique from bad at DT, but a guy that is so strong in the weight-room but not on the filed screams of technique to me.
Strength helps but leverage and technique help more.
What will be expected of him is also important. The DL coach works with his group all through the year. A guy like him comes in and the coaching starts.
When the season ends he is judged by how much he improves. During the off season he is given a program to what needs to be worked on. After that first season players learn the ropes and know what must happen to get reps.
That is where he is. How he improves will determine how much he plays or if he remains on the roster.
I always thought we were a D that mostly is allowed to make its own pressure up front. That's all well and good when you have the horses to do so, but we have a GIANT hole in the middle of our Dline. We also need another end. I know our DTs from last year get crapped on, but I thought they looked solid. I think if we want JOK to continue his ascent, we need to get a guy or two that can keep the big boys off of him.
I think the keys to our D are Delpit continuing his steady (if slow) improvement, getting Clowney back, and somehow landing at least 1 more legit stud at DT.
Clowney is important. Berry I believe will do something. We shall see.
IMO we need a solid rotation of guys at DT. Guys who are fresh and will hustle. I like the idea of guys fighting to gain reps and let competition separate.
It is imperative in our scheme to have pressure from the edge.
I am looking for a huge year from Delpit and JOK. Delpit started to play well as the year went on. He is a talented player who I was really high on when we drafted him.
It is important that our interior DL engage blockers and occupy them while controling gaps.
Woods wants the front to bring pressure without blitzing. He wants the secondary to cover and the linebackers to be able to control space.
Come post season if you can not pressure the quarterback your chances will be slim.
I don't think scheme is going to be a big topic on this thread. Other than tab, everyone has pretty much ignored my scheme comments. That's fine.
So, let me talk about personnel. One guy that I am not as high on as others is Delpit.
Make no mistake, he flashes big time when he is running in a straight line downhill. He will make plays because of that gift. However, his lateral movement is beyond pathetic. He gets juked out as much as anyone I have ever seen. He reminds me of rich man's version of Bademosi, who so many on here loved. Straight line speed. No lateral movement. Delpit is better than him. Who is that other guy from USC who was supposed to be such a great FS? TJ McDonald or something like that? Straight line speed. Never liked him despite his hype.
Bottom line in my view...........Delpit can play, but I don't think he will ever be elite due to his lack of lateral mobility.
I'm going off memory here so I'm probably wrong... Didn't the defense improve the later we went into the season? If so I wonder how much man we were running.
As to Delpit, I didn't notice that problem. I know he was supposedly the one who blew the coverages in the Chargers game.
When it comes to teaching defensive basics, such as tackling, Woods defense would rate a D.
Coaching is teaching and when I see players at the pro level whiffing on a tackle like in the video above...it comes back to coaching. The Browns defensive coaching staff has been horrid when it comes to teaching the basics, especially tackling.
I don't know how many times I watched our defensive players make an excellent move to avoid blockers and have a clear shot at sacking the QB..only to watch the Browns miss the tackle and turning what should have been a big play for the Browns defense..ends up being a big play for the opponents offense.
IMO, improving the Browns defense should begin with higher priority and focus on teaching defensive basics.
Quincy reminds me so much of one of my best friends who passed away.
Not how he looks but his voice and his football takes. My friend Bruce and I watched the Browns together for over thirty years. We talked on the phone like 5 times a week. We chewed on football constantly. When Quincy brings guys on his youtube cast from the other North teams. I really enjoy that. It reminds me so much about how we used to talk. Quincy loves the game and he brings that enthusiasm.
I am not very knowledgeable about the 4-2-5. I never had to deal w/it when I was coaching. I do understand the main coverages in running a 4-2-5 and have spoke about them and provided some articles. I decided to come back to this thread and add more because I was speaking w/a very nice poster in a PM the other day and he remarked about me saying other posters finding it boring to discuss such things and that is why I was posting a link. He told me that while he and others might not comment on such topics, they still like reading them and learning. I've had similar discussions in PMs w/other posters n the past and it's probably the main reason I came back. There really are a lot of good people on here.
I've read some more information on the 4-2-5 and I have applied my background information of similar defenses and came up w/a few takeaways. I'm not positive that I am 100% correct in my deductions, but this post is dedicated to those who like to read new information and enhance their knowledge of the game. I think it's not even important to agree on things. What IS important is to consider new information, make some connections on things you have experienced, and then consider altering your opinions or accepting/objecting to the new information.
I think the 4-2-5 was mostly first used in the college game. I also believe that it was designed to stop the Spread offenses in college. I think Seattle was one of the first teams to use it in the NFL and that would make sense because of Pete Carrol's time in college football. Obviously, the idea is to get into nickel packages that can defend Spread offenses that employ multiple receivers. A nice off-shoot of this is the fact that you are getting better athletes on the field.
Coverage wise, I think that you want to play more Cover 3 on run/pass downs such as first down or 2nd and medium. Obviously, teams are going to mix coverages up. They will utilize Cover 2, and in recent years, teams have been playing a mixture of coverages. For example, one side might be in Cover 4 and the other in another coverage. All kinds of options. But, I'm trying to keep it simple here. We do play some Cover 2 from what I have seen, but Cover 3 and Quarters are the our bread in butter.
Let me ask you a question: I'll answer it, but in your head, make a guess as to when we should employ Cover 3 or Quarters? Again, Cover 3 has two corners who line up on outside receivers and are mostly responsible for coverage outside the hashes. The two safeties [I will use the terms Free safeties and Strong Safeties to keep it simple, even though this is very fluid. The FS typically lines up deep in alignment w/the QB and Center. That changes if you are rolling coverages to stop a premier WR. The SS will line up closer to the LOS and often be responsible for the flat, RBs coming out of the backfield, or the TE. The remaining nickel guy can be placed in various spots and that changes on whether you have 3 corners or 3 safeties on the field. I think the easiest one for us all to understand is putting a 3rd corner on a slot WR.
Quarters, as I addressed in a previous post has 4 DBs lined up horizontally very close to the LOS. There is another DB lined up deeper, and he is typically more of a FS type.
Here is the question: Which coverage would you run on first and ten, second and medium, and maybe on 3rd and short? And which coverage would you employ on obvious passing downs?
Okay, here is my answer. I run Cover 3 when I think there is a better chance of the O either running or passing. I run Quarters in passing downs and especially [this is very important] when I want to run a blitz w/my secondary guys. Think about all the times we saw guys like Hill blitz the qb. That was almost always from Quarters. I wish I had the ability to provide videos as to what I am speaking about. It really helps to add a visual to the spoken word. Sorry.
I was going to go on, but this post is long. If the thread stays on track, I will come back and identify some of the weaknesses or concerns that I have w/the 4-2-5. I am not going to take time to preview this post, so there are probably a ton of grammatical and incorrect words in this post. Please accept my apologies. Feel free to ask questions. This is not a D I know much about, but I have a football mind.
A couple of concerns/weaknesses that I have discovered w/the 4-2-5.
While the 4-2-5 employs a lot of lighter, faster guys on the Edges, playing another DB in place of a LBer, and having LBers who can run, the one spot where you need bigger stronger guys is interior defensive linemen. There is a possibility that our FO hasn't provided the right defensive tackles that are needed for the 4-2-5. Thus, perhaps there is a chance that we do draft a bigger DT this year, perhaps Travis Jones from UConn. We did discuss him in the Draft forum. Jones is around 330 lbs.
A weakness of the 4-2-5 is defending the RPO, at least in regards to my studies.
I wonder about defending TEs? I think our coverages can slow down TEs from running deep seam routes, I wonder about the intermediate zones and in the flat.
On first down the fifth guy would be the slot corner. Two corners play the boundaries. The safety's must be able to cover. You can align them pre-snap in different places.
The key to play 4-2-5 is the (2). They have to be able to cover. The slot corner is occupied. The outside backer on the strong side has to be able to cover the TE.
JOK is a chess piece for Woods. He makes the key read. The weeks game film will look at the formations and what the offense likes to do. They try to to uncover "tells" off blocking assignments.
Both linebackers have to able to play in space. They are not "stack and shed" guys. Phillps and Walker can both cover. So Woods will use personnel packages based upon game film preparations.
I don't expect JOK to come off the field very often. You mentioned RPO weakness. You are right if you do not have the right guys.
The defense has to be flexible for back up reasons. If a player reads the play wrong and commits a certain way. The result can be a big play.
Continuity is so important. This is the third year of Woods. Players like JOK, Fields, LeCounte, Phillips, Walker, JJ, Delpit, Hill, Newsome, were brought here to play for Woods.
These players must communicate well. 4-2-5 is a coverage defense. Pass rush with four is important. Blitzing is not going to be common.
A little off topic, but I really like JOK's game. He is excellent. Great range, speed, and versatility. As a bonus, he is athletic enough to make splash plays.
I'm going off memory here so I'm probably wrong... Didn't the defense improve the later we went into the season? If so I wonder how much man we were running.
As to Delpit, I didn't notice that problem. I know he was supposedly the one who blew the coverages in the Chargers game.
It didn't improve so much as the secondary remembered they were playing the game of football about a quarter of the way into the season.
I read some of your comments before the draft about JOK last year. You piqued my interest, so I investigate. He was the guy I was hoping who would fall to us. Not sure why he slipped in the draft???
We need a big tackle. If we can't get that guy who demands 2 blockers, a guy like JOK is going to wear down if week after week a guy like Teller can get out on him free and clear play after play.
I don't think DT's are appreciated enough for what they do. Everybody these days measures everything in sacks when it comes to DT's and that isn't the biggest benefit they can provide a D.
Ask any good MLB if he thinks DT's make a difference.
DT is so under appreciated. A great DT dominates the interior and keeps the lineman off the linebackers. Having linebackers that can flow freely changes the whole makeup of the defense. Having dominant defensive tackles allows your edge people to play one-on-one in passing situations. The last 2-years, the Browns have not put an emphasis on the position and it shows. The Browns interior has been rated at the bottom of the league and it doesn't appear they are going to address it again this off season. Last years group, M. Jackson ranked 98th out of 109, M. McDowell 93/109 and Elliott 102/109, was ranked dead last in interior play. Add in the fact that it's looking more and more like the Browns won't resign Clowney, the Browns d-line is looking very suspect. However, placing 2 rookies at DT couldn't be any worse than what the Browns got out of the position in 2021.
Quincy reminds me so much of one of my best friends who passed away.
Not how he looks but his voice and his football takes. My friend Bruce and I watched the Browns together for over thirty years. We talked on the phone like 5 times a week. We chewed on football constantly. When Quincy brings guys on his youtube cast from the other North teams. I really enjoy that. It reminds me so much about how we used to talk. Quincy loves the game and he brings that enthusiasm.
This is a good take by Q on the Browns defense.
This is where I feel Ward is getting rewarded well, yet wants another player back. Do a lesser contract to get your boy back. Seems More about me than a team thing ! Be more like Tom Brady, Get the players that can make the team win super bowls !
I am still unsure about the role of the DT's in Woods scheme. Sheldon Richardson played tackle like a inside DE.
Ogunjobi plugged gaps. Last year McDowell just tried to get upfield. Jackson seemed to just hold the line.
So I don't know. On some plays they may loop and rush. Or, maybe have the DE come inside.
If we take a DT at 44 I wonder who it will be. My guess is Logan Hall who plays like Richardson.
He might be the guy because we have have him best on the board and is available, but I wouldn't say he is like Richardson. Maybe he will be asked to do the same thing.
Hall is fairly small for a DT at 280. I didn't try to look it up, but it seems Richardson was like 320.
Hey, maybe we just like the fast, quick guys. Thats great if it works. At least with the guys we have marched out there it hasn't. McDowell look good for a while, but seemed to fade as the season progressed, and now the guy is a fruit and not in the league, so we can forget that.
It's always easy to spend, or ask to spend, someone else's money.
Hey Arch, a good friend and I are talking about purchasing a partial season ticket package to the Nashville Predators next season. We both like hockey and like to spend time in Nashville. The problem is since I already buy Browns season tickets my wife will probably balk at that idea, but if you bought them for me, problem solved!
Well very few play twenty years at his level. And has a wife who could match his paycheck.
Ward made market value. He has not reached that level where he is going to leave money on the table.
Brady probably will have money coming in for years after he retires from deferred dollars.
The highest paid CB in NFL history who is on a team that won , one play-off game ?
And as you say, if his wife can match his pay check, then that is a better reason for Ward to take a lesser contract to get Clowney and maybe Jarvis back on the team.
His level of play at his size can put him out of the game for ever !
To get back to the scheme and personnel for a moment, I read over and over again that your interior d-linemen should be the one exception to the rule when playing lighter, faster players in a 4-2-5. I think Berry is smart and hopefully, he will get at least one big DT to help Woods in the 4-2-5 scheme. Of course, if they plan on moving on from Woods in short order, that big DT won't be needed.
I have a question for you guys. Given what we have learned about the 4-2-5, it's coverages, alignments, and personnel packages........doesn't it at least make sense to you that we need some beef to stop the run in close games?
My fault. I was referring to Brady and his wife. I don't know what you know of her? Brady's wife? Major fashion model. "What would you like for Christmas Honey? Let's just buy France Hon."
Ward this is only his second deal. His age is important. He is 24. In his prime. Glad we could sign him. He is important to the defense.
My fault. I was referring to Brady and his wife. I don't know what you know of her? Brady's wife? Major fashion model. "What would you like for Christmas Honey? Let's just buy France Hon."
Ward this is only his second deal. His age is important. He is 24. In his prime. Glad we could sign him. He is important to the defense.
lol , wouldn't that be nice !
His age is important, your right, but so are his injury issues.
Obviously, I think so. The O-line starts with 5 players. To me you have to equal out those numbers on the interior line by have 1 player who can command the attention of two players. That does three things with that move.
1. It cleans it up for JOK and whoever at the lb position.
2. It can take some pressure off Garrett in the form of a double team..or forces teams to double 2 players
3. Seeing the garrett will probably still get doubled, it crates a numbers advantage for us in the defensive backfield.
If all of Woods' exotic defensive schemes are going have any chance of working on the field...HE HAS TO DO A BETTER JOB OF TEACHING THEM.
IMO, Woods and his staff need to either "simplify" the defensive scheme and/or spend "more time teaching" his defensive scheme. Too many times I watched the defense look lost, with the players obviously confused about their assignment when defensive calls were made on the field.
Blown coverage led to easy completions, big plays and TDs for our opponents. It doesn't matter how well the DLine plays if the guys in coverage don't understand what their assignment is in EVERY DEFENSE CALLED.
Back to basics first..then move on to the defensive variations.
If there is a failure on a play to communicate the coverage. Yes it can look bad and the result is bad.
IMO Woods has done a good job. This year will be very interesting because of player growth and new pieces added.
Right now today I don't know who will be the starters on the DL outside of Myles. Once that picture is clear. We will know more about what to expect from the defense.
As it stands today. I would take the Browns secondary over just about any team.
Some decent breakdown of Woods defense in this video, imo. I see such a lack of defensive discipline and it seems that Woods defense lacked in basic individual technique along with no dedicated areas of responsibility...ESPECIALLY flat coverage.
I don't give a damn about the overall ranking of Woods defense...I care more about how Woods defense performed in critical situations. As you will see in this video, the Patriots took full advantage of the Browns defensive weaknesses.
Woods has a scheme? Worst DC we've had in years. Huge mistake turning this roster of talented D over to a guy afraid to attack.
