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Posted By: bonefish Position Battles - 07/07/22 06:54 PM
Hopefully next week or so we will find out about DW.

Until then camp is not to far away and there should be some good competition to follow once camp begins.

Hooper is gone. Njoku and Bryant will be the primary guys. However, the third TE is up for grabs.

Miller Forristall, Nakia Griffin-Stewart, Zaire Mitchell-Paden, Marcos Santos-Silva, these four guys who I don't a thing about get to fight for a roster spot. I know Silva played PF in college basketball. I don't know what to expect from them.

Slot receiver is wide open and I will say. I miss Jarvis. However, this should interesting. I think Felton is in the mix. He has good short area quickness and can catch the ball. He is a good runner after the catch. Bell the rookie has been pegged for the position. All indications are that he has been impressive. Runs good routes and has exceptional hands. Anthony Schwartz? Not sure about him in the slot. I think he will be moved around in camp. They will looking closely at him. Expecting him to show development as a receiver. Jakeem Grant will get reps in the slot. He is a proven ST player but he is also a receiver. He can run after the catch. I would expect him to get some trick plays like reverses, or jet sweeps. Slot?

We have some UDFA's receivers. Ya never know about them. We look light at receiver. I wonder if we might add a vet?

DT will be wide open. The Malik's are gone. Sheldon Day is a vet backup. Jordan Elliott was a third rounder and it is time for him. Taven Bryan was traded for. He has underachieved but he might be one of those guys who needed a fresh start. Togiai? He was drafted to be developed. Kind of see where he is.
Perrion Winfrey is a rookie. I saw him at the Senior Bowl practice. Loved him. I am hoping he will be what I saw.

JOK will play every down. Who is next to him? Walker, Phillips, Taki, Fields. I expect Taki to play on run downs. Walker and Phillips will both play. Maybe sometimes together with JOK and other times one of them.

Center? Harris was drafted to play center. His strength is his ability to move. He has good feet and can get to the second level. He needed to get stronger and be consistent. He is expected to start. However, they brought in Ethan Pocic. He has experience and is a lot bigger than Harris. He could push Harris.

RT is for Conklin if healthy. Hudson and Hubbard will be the primary backups. Hubbard has more experience. Hudson was not bad as a rookie. He had some bumps but he played better as the year went on.

Camp always brings a surprise. Some guy comes in and plays his butt off. I felt bad for Malik McDowell. I thought the guy was over his past and had a future. He might have developed into something decent. But his past was not so far behind.

I am looking forward to camp.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 07:02 PM
If Hubbard is fully healed, RT is his until Conklin is back.

I also thought Hudson performed admirably in a tough situation, but the Pittsburgh game showed he's not ready yet.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 07:19 PM
I think Bell might fit in the slot.

I will be interested in how the WRs shake out. We have one proven WR. I have hopes for Bell, but he is a rookie who lacks the measurables. DPJ has some impressive physical skills. Schwartz is fast. We need at least two of these guys to play well and be solid contributors. It would be nice if all three of them earned playing time because of their performance and not play because we don't have anyone else. At this point in time, I have more confidence in Bell and DPJ stepping up than I do in Schwartz. It should be interesting to watch.

Picking up a vet makes sense. Glad you brought that up. I just wish we would have kept Landry.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 07:33 PM
KS and AVP want Schwartz to be that vertical guy.

Will Fuller is still out there. He has played with DW. I know they liked the smarts of Schwartz. There are others like Bradley etc. But I think they should sign Fuller.

I thought DPJ was going to have a great year last season. He was outstanding in camp. But DPJ suffered from bad qb play.

I think he will do very well as the number two. Bell has the attributes to play slot. It will be a position to watch.
Posted By: IrishDawg42 Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by oobernoober
If Hubbard is fully healed, RT is his until Conklin is back.

I also thought Hudson performed admirably in a tough situation, but the Pittsburgh game showed he's not ready yet.


This is one I am anxiously awaiting. Conklin is supposed to be ready by pre-season. If he is healthy, that would be a big check mark for the O-line. They missed him dearly last year.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 08:30 PM
Originally Posted by IrishDawg42
Originally Posted by oobernoober
If Hubbard is fully healed, RT is his until Conklin is back.

I also thought Hudson performed admirably in a tough situation, but the Pittsburgh game showed he's not ready yet.


This is one I am anxiously awaiting. Conklin is supposed to be ready by pre-season. If he is healthy, that would be a big check mark for the O-line. They missed him dearly last year.

IIRC, the only news about Conklin was shared by his agent, and it was of the best-case-scenario variety.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 08:44 PM
Quote
JACK CONKLIN
T, CLEVELAND BROWNS
Conklin
The Cleveland Plain Dealer's Mary Kay Cabot reports that Browns RT Jack Conklin (patella recovery) is not participating in minicamp as expected.
Conklin tore his patella in late November and is a PUP list candidate. Veteran Chris Hubbard is taking snaps with the ones while Conklin sits. It's not entirely out of the realm of possibility that Conklin can't suit up in Week 1, but the Browns have presented an optimistic face on Conklin so far.

SOURCE: Mary Kay Cabot on Twitter
Jun 14, 2022, 1:33 PM ET

------------------------------------------

JACK CONKLIN
T, CLEVELAND BROWNS
Conklin
The Cleveland Plain Dealer's Mary Kay Cabot reports that Browns RT Jack Conklin is participating in Cleveland's offseason program.
“He’s here, and he’s working really hard,’’ Kevin Stefanski told reporters. “I don’t have a date for you, but he’s on schedule with everything. He’s doing a nice job.” The Browns are hopeful that Conklin can return from a torn patella tendon by opening day.

SOURCE: Cleveland Plain Dealer
Apr 24, 2022, 2:28 PM ET


https://www.nbcsportsedge.com/football/nfl/player/12377/jack-conklin
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 08:44 PM
That's a little concerning. Not panic time, but concerning.
Posted By: lampdogg Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 08:45 PM
Training camp is closing in fast, eh?

I like what I’ve read about Bell thus far, but I never put much hope in rookie WRs. It’d be nice if he could turn into a Chase type, the guys with the Bengals.

I think it’d be huge if DPJ could step up and be a clear #2 behind Cooper. It’d take a lot of heat off the younger guys. Schwartz? Have to see him do it to believe he can do it.
BTW, is Carlson still on the roster? The tight end, I mean.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 08:57 PM
Carlson is not on the roster.

I would not expect Bell to be a guy like Chase. My hope is that he is a young version of Jarvis.

He has the traits.

The running back room will be crowded. Behind Nick and Kareem you have d'Earnest, Felton, and Ford. what a luxury.

We will run it.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 09:11 PM
I can't post all the charts w/Advanced Stat comparisons because this article is premium content, but you garner some information from this regarding David Bell.


Quote
2022 NFL Draft Player Comparisons: Purdue WR David Bell's impressive college production hints at NFL success

West Lafayette, Indiana, USA; Purdue Boilermakers wide receiver David Bell (3) in the second half against the Michigan State Spartans at Ross-Ade Stadium. Mandatory Credit: Trevor Ruszkowski-USA TODAY Sports

By Kevin Cole
Apr 11, 2022
Comparing current NFL draft prospects to those of years past is standard procedure in draft evaluation, though most comparisons are built on the memory recall and subjective opinion of the particular evaluator.

In this series of articles, I will compare the 2022 draft prospects to prior years and pick out the most similar comps with a clearly delineated and quantifiable method.

PFF data scientist Eric Eager has done tremendous work building college-to-pro projections, which are built off the robust college data we’ve collected since 2014 and have been applied to exercises like building an “analytics” mock draft. In this analysis, I will use some of our advanced stats for comparison but primarily rely on traditional stats to go back further and compare the 2022 prospects to draft classes since 2006.



METHODOLOGY
The comps below were derived from a two-step process. First, I converted all the most statistically relevant stats and measurables to percentiles based on the thousands of prospects who have entered the NFL since 2006.

The matching features were transformed by principal component analysis (PCA). I found the closest statistically comparable players by the Euclidean distance between the players' principle components, listed in the top 10 below.

For draft position, I’m using an estimate based on the mock data collected at GrindingTheMocks.com. The college statistical metrics for PCA are career market shares for receiving yards and receiving touchdowns, best-season market shares for receiving yards, yards per route run and yards per reception.

I also included the most important workout metrics for NFL and draft position for wide receivers: weight, 40-yard dash time and vertical jump. I’m taking the best number from either the prospects' NFL Scouting Combine or pro-day performances. If the 40-yard dash time or vertical jump are missing, I estimate them based on historical modeling with weight and available other workout metrics.

MOST COMPARABLE PLAYERS
David Bell was one of the class' biggest fallers from the NFL combine, where he posted a 4.65-second 40-yard dash (11th percentile). That slower performance, combined with running an even worse 4.74-second time at his pro day, has pushed his status from a possible second-round pick to potentially falling out of Day 2 altogether.

Still, we know NFL front offices generally overrate speed, and Bell’s combine wasn’t that bad, according to my model that focuses on actual NFL value.



College production is more indicative of future NFL success than speed, and Bell hits the metrics you want to see for a successful NFL wide receiver. He posted 30% or better career team market shares in receiving yards and touchdowns after breaking out in 2019 as an 18-year-old true freshman, leading Purdue in receptions (86), receiving yards (1,035) and touchdowns (7).



Bell’s list of comps includes a few tremendously successful but slower players, such as Keenan Allen and Jarvis Landry. In fact, the breadth of success for the Purdue product's comps illustrates how overrated timed speed can be if a prospect has strong production at an early age.



ADVANCED STATS COMPARISON
Looking only at Bell's closest comparable players who played in the PFF College era (2014-2021), we can see how he stacks up with his percentiles for receiving grade and other advanced stats like alignment, yards after the catch and deep targets (targets from passes thrown 20 or more yards downfield). These stats are all from the prospects’ final seasons.



This comp list becomes narrower when restricting it to the era in which PFF has been collecting data (2014-2021). Bell graded well in his final season and was able to play outside and generate yards after the catch, hinting at athleticism missed in his combine numbers.

While it’s difficult to get meaningful dynasty rookie draft information at this point in the offseason, Bell has been drafted WR10 in recent best-ball drafts after going as high as WR7 leading into the NFL combine. He might not have the ceiling of some of the athletic marvels in his class, but his poor measurables are more likely a value opportunity than a disqualifying factor for NFL front offices.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 10:05 PM
Well that is some methodology. Euclidean eh?

"the Euclidean distance between the players' principle components,"

Well I don't know if I can think that hard?

Just kidding.

thanks for posting that.

I watched some tape. Not to much. I like the way he catches the ball. Very natural. I know his 40 time was poor.

That is ok and does not bother me. It is about getting open and catching the ball IMO. They wanted him. So he will get a good look see.
Posted By: Jester Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 10:08 PM
Nice breakdown
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 10:10 PM
The Browns do not have position battles they give 90%, maybe more, of them away for free.
Deshawn Watson did not beat Mayfield out in camp to take the starting Qb job.
Chubb never had to beat out Isaiah Crowell for the starting job his first year. Neither did Kareem Hunt have to beat out what's his name from back then. (Because the Browns just didn't bring the previous players back iirc.
This year, Nick Harris or Ethan Pocic did not have to take the job from Tretter in training camp.
3 years ago there was some battle that Wyatt Teller won, but he wasn't beating out a former starter, it was a case of they had nobody except new faces by committee. Joel Bitonio, who did he have to beat for the starting job that returned when he first started? I think it was a case of just fill in because the previous guy is gone.
The same with the left and right tackle positions as they are now, The Browns had no solid starter who a new face outperformed the previous starter.
The Wide receivers, Noboby beat OBJ out for the #1 spot in camp, and OBJ didn't beat out a former #1 when he first signed.
Nobody performed Jarvis Landry out of a job, in camp. Neither DPJ, nor Bell took a job from Rashard Higgins, not in camp.
Position battles and the Browns don't mix. They don't return a solid starter, and get a player who comes in younger and outperforms the current starter.
Did JOK have to beat out the others to get his starting spot, maybe, it is unclear, but he was going to be given playing time.
And maybe Greg Newsome beat out others for his time on the field.
But JJ3, and Troy Hill the year they came in as free agents, they were starters replacing what wasn't returning.
It is not like the old days,
So I don't think position battles happen like they used to.
Posted By: Jester Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by oobernoober
If Hubbard is fully healed, RT is his until Conklin is back.

I also thought Hudson performed admirably in a tough situation, but the Pittsburgh game showed he's not ready yet.

I re-watched that game. Hudson didn't play as bad as it seemed. 1st he was matched up one on one against one of if not hte best pass rusher in the NFL. He had zero help. No chip from a TE. No help from a RB. How does that happen? Despite that, Watt didn't get free run at Baker. Hudson held his own on most of those sacks for a while. Baker was holding the ball a long time. Not casting blame on Baker. I was at that game (damn it was cold) and there were not many open receivers.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 10:15 PM
I like Bell, too. I know his 40 time was terrible, but the guy catches the ball. I watch a ton of Big 10 games and each time I saw Purdue play, Bell stood out from the other guys. He just makes play after play after play.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Position Battles - 07/07/22 10:45 PM
That seems to be the take by those that have watched him

KS loved the guy.

Jarvis was slow. He still was great. Cooper Kupp is far from fast. Larry Fitzgerald was not fast. Good receivers have that ability to get open. Jerry Rice was not a speed demon.

They know how to set up db's. They use slight deceptive movements to create space. They gain the confidence of the quarterback by running precise routes.

Bell could do well.

Posted By: Pdawg Re: Position Battles - 07/08/22 01:47 AM
Cooper Kupp ran a 4.62
Larry Fitzgerald ran a 4.50 at his pro day but Anquan Bold in ran a 4.71
David Bell ran a 4.65
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: Position Battles - 07/08/22 02:36 AM
I hate 40 times because they mean literally not much at all. I ran a 5.0 in high school, when 5 were timed at the same time. You took off when the coach said "go".

In games, I was never once caught from behind, even by track 'stars'.

I get the 'measuring' thing, but it doesn't hold much sway with me.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Position Battles - 07/08/22 07:48 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I like Bell, too. I know his 40 time was terrible, but the guy catches the ball. I watch a ton of Big 10 games and each time I saw Purdue play, Bell stood out from the other guys. He just makes play after play after play.

Speed is great, and adds a lot, but it is overrated.

Bell's "lack" of speed might require him to gain some space with moves, and some of his passes will need to me more timing routes of sorts, but if he can gain a step or two on his break, he will catch the ball. The break will be his key. That and a QB who knows when to throw the ball to take advantage of the separation he gains on the cut.

Bell ran a 4.65. Cooper Kupp ran a 4.63. I'd say Kupp has done OK being a "slow" receiver. I am not sure how that difference in speed would actually measure in a race or on the football field, but I suspect it doesn't mean a whole lot.

Bell's sucess is going to depend on his ability to break off the ball and his ability to get the corner to ever so slightly dip his shoulder one way just before he makes his cut the other way. Bam! There is the separation.

Thus far, Bell has had the ability to do that. If he can continue to do that, he will catch 80 balls or more a year...ok...maybe not as a rookie, but you never know.

The art of receiving isn't so much what we see. We see a guy catch the ball and we clap. The unseen part is the important part. What did he do to be in position to catch the ball?

The Big 10 is a pretty good test of a player who wants to play in the NFL. The Big 10 puts quality DB's in to the league every year. He did it there on a regular basis, so he should be able to do it at the NFL level at least often enough.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Position Battles - 07/08/22 11:50 AM
Here is a player profile that should be easier to read than the previous one I posted.



Quote
David Bell NFL Draft 2022: Scouting Report for Purdue WR
BR NFL SCOUTING DEPARTMENT


HEIGHT: 6'0 7/8"

WEIGHT: 212

HAND: 9 1/4"

ARM: 31 7/8"

WINGSPAN: 6'4 5/8"


40-YARD DASH: 4.65

3-CONE: 7.14

SHUTTLE: 4.57

VERTICAL: 33"

BROAD: 9'10"


POSITIVES

— Good size and strength for the position. Overpowers CBs trying to get their hands on him.

— Aligns inside and out. Can consistently find soft spots in zone coverages when working over the middle.

— Has the body control and ball skills to be a valid weapon on back-shoulder throws. Understands how to use his body to box out defenders.

— Can create yards after the catch with his strength and good balance. Bounces off CBs with the ball in his hands and flashes some burst to get north.






— Above-average hands with good catching range.

— Has the frame and strength to be a valid weapon on underneath routes like slants. Knows how to stay friendly to QBs and is willing to work over the middle.

— Not a burner, but has enough straight-line speed to threaten CBs on vertical routes.




NEGATIVES

— Has a tendency to push off defenders, which will be penalized more frequently in the NFL.

— Inconsistent with his route running. Will lack urgency and details.

— Average lateral quickness with the ball in his hands.


2021 STATISTICS

11 G, 93 REC, 1,286 YDS (13.8 AVG), 6 TD


NOTES

— 2021 first-team All-American.

— 2021 Big Ten WR of the Year.

— 2021 first-team All-Big Ten.

— 2020 first-team All-Big Ten.

— 2019 Big Ten Freshman of the Year.


OVERALL

David Bell is a good-sized WR who can align inside and out in an offensive formation. He wins with his strength and body control, but he has enough athleticism to win on vertical routes and threaten cornerbacks just enough with his long speed.

Bell's body control and ball skills really flash on back-shoulder throws, on which he already shows a propensity to be a valid weapon. He is willing to work over the middle on underneath routes, where his frame and play strength make him a friendly option for quarterbacks.


While Bell can create some yards after the catch with his balance and core strength, he is not a burner and doesn't consistently make defenders miss in a phone booth. He also is inconsistent with his route-running technique and effort, and he'll need to continue to polish his technique and route tree in the NFL.

Bell tends to push off on defenders at the top of his routes, which will be penalized more often in the NFL. He also lacks detail on routes on more advanced parts of the route tree.

Overall, Bell projects as a No. 2 type of receiver who can align inside as a "Power Slot" and outside as a Z receiver. His strength, body control and ball skills will get him playing time early in his career, but he needs to continue working on his technique and overall effort to ascend to more.


GRADE: 7.2 (High-level Backup/Potential Starter - 3rd Round)

OVERALL RANK: 92

POSITION RANK: WR13

PRO COMPARISON: Joshua Palmer


https://bleacherreport.com/articles/10021513-david-bell-nfl-draft-2022-scouting-report-for-purdue-wr
Posted By: Bard Dawg Re: Position Battles - 07/08/22 11:53 AM
May well prove to be the second coming of Brennan, a good thing for the O, among my favorite receivers. Part of the chain gang, moving them and converting to keep drives alive. Bell will be a crowd pleaser. I see no way that more drives being kept alive, ending in points, can not end in more wins, especially if this monster leg holds up. Can he match and surpass the output we saw last season? Fingers crossed! fingerscrossed thumbsup
Posted By: mac Re: Position Battles - 07/08/22 11:53 AM
Originally Posted by archbolddawg
I hate 40 times because they mean literally not much at all. I ran a 5.0 in high school, when 5 were timed at the same time. You took off when the coach said "go".

In games, I was never once caught from behind, even by track 'stars'.

I get the 'measuring' thing, but it doesn't hold much sway with me.

I have to agree with Arch...the 40 time is a poor measure of a players ability to play a position. My HS experiences were similar to Arch in that I had OL speed according to a stop watch yet played strong side outside LB soph, jr, sr and with conference honors all 3 yrs. How does an OLman do that?

Example that Browns fans can digest, in 2021 Browns drafted WR Schwartz (4.27/40) with the #91 pick. He caught 10 passes for 135 yds last season.
......next WR drafted at #109..at pick 110 Browns take OL Hudson
......at pick 112 Lions draft WR Amon-Ra St. Brown (4.51/40). He had 90 catches for 912 yds last season.

Over emphasis of analytics (4.27/40) can lead to draft failures. Football is not Baseball and it's not 'track' either. But I guess the Browns can blame it on the numbers..right?
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Position Battles - 07/08/22 11:58 AM
Who is blaming anyone for anything on this thread? Well, other than Throw. We are actually having a nice conversation.
Posted By: Bard Dawg Re: Position Battles - 07/08/22 12:01 PM
True, true, true. I put real stock in what you are describing in a game situation. I never had speed to speak of, Dad joked he had to time my 40's with a calendar. But I could get where I needed to make plays. He called it "football speed." Fast as you need to be when you need to be. You can surprise yourself. I expect Bell will impress and succeed.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Position Battles - 07/08/22 02:06 PM
Thanks vers good stuff.

"Good size and strength for the position. Overpowers CBs trying to get their hands on him."

The skill of hand fighting is often overlooked. In press jam man coverage hand fighting is an art. Jarvis was great at it. Bouldon and Fitz were amazing.

Body control shows up on 50/50 balls. IMO it is what makes receivers. The ability when the ball is in the air to win and make the catch. That is the NFL. DB's are really good. You have to make contested catches. Jarvis made his career at it.

I have listened to Chad O'Shea in his press conferences and in a interview with Nate Zugura. He seems like a good coach. He had lots of praise for Bell. Both KS and O'Shea were high on Bell in the draft.

I am optomistic about Bell.
Posted By: mac Re: Position Battles - 07/08/22 02:16 PM
Quote
But I could get where I needed to make plays. He called it "football speed."

Bard...yep, measuring the quality of a football player with a stop watch seems to be the primary focus of some NFL teams these days.

But, if we hang some pads and a full uniform on a player and see if he can complete his assignment might be a better measurement.

"Football Speed", yep, putting yourself in position to make the play...some players just have an "instinct" and "desire" to make plays. Can't measure it with a stop watch because it comes from within a player. You just have to know it when you see it..!
Posted By: bonefish Re: Position Battles - 07/08/22 02:51 PM
This is from an interview with Chad O'Shea regarding Bell.

"O'Shea broke down one of the plays that highlighted that: an impressive deep-ball catch against Notre Dame last season. Bell ran a vertical route and leaped over the defender to make a tricky two-handed catch, one that he still corralled despite not having much separation between him and the defensive back.

"We saw him as one of the best players in the draft as regards to his ball skills," O'Shea said. "He did it in a lot of contested areas, or where he was closely matched at the top of the route.

"That was a difficult catch. He has a defender that's closely trailing him or matching in man coverage, and he has the ability to make those plays and show his great ball skills."

This is precisely what I was emphasising about making contested catches.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: Position Battles - 07/08/22 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
That's a little concerning. Not panic time, but concerning.

My recollection was about what you posted there. Roses and butterflies update/prognosis is he COULD be ready for week 1... but that's best-case.

IMO, if Hubbard is 100% then we'll be fine for a few weeks. Hubbard went offline pretty early last year, so he should be GTG.
Posted By: Bard Dawg Re: Position Battles - 07/08/22 03:03 PM
Agree with that. And responding to your last line, and what has driven me crazy with the Browns, especially the 0 - 16 gang, you can't help but know it when you don't see it. The whiffs, the loafers, lousy technique, all that and more reveal less about where a player's head is in a game than speed. Speed is a gut check, and fans know it when they see it. I commented last season a few times that it looked like we weren't locked in, like we didn't care enough and couldn't be bothered to close out a win. Certainly not all, but certainly some, and certainly more than once. Can't say they quit, because they didn't seem like they ever managed to get up to speed. Football speed is like our LB. Get there! Go, Browns!
Posted By: lampdogg Re: Position Battles - 07/08/22 11:01 PM
Jc, bard.

There are a few things that make a good/elite receiver what he is, but in my mind, quick feet when changing direction are more important than straight-line speed.
Posted By: HotBYoungTurk Re: Position Battles - 07/09/22 02:47 AM
DT and LB spots are most interesting for me.

Also wondering how Safety depth will pan out. Hoping LeCounte gets an opportunity.
Posted By: Bard Dawg Re: Position Battles - 07/09/22 12:24 PM
They are a must. My comments were about the extra gear players find in the clutch. The WRs live in a world with their own skill mix. I don't think great feet hurt any position. Mine was broader in my own mind, but didn't get that done well enough. Hope we agree on Bell!
Posted By: FORTBROWNFAN Re: Position Battles - 07/09/22 01:16 PM
Originally Posted by lampdogg
Jc, bard.

There are a few things that make a good/elite receiver what he is, but in my mind, quick feet when changing direction are more important than straight-line speed.

That, and sure hands. If you can get open, then catch the ball, you will succeed. Plenty of successful "slow" receivers over the years. Before anyone misunderstands, that doesn't mean I think speed isn't extremely valuable.
Posted By: keithfromxenia Re: Position Battles - 07/09/22 02:43 PM
Throw you are right, Chubb did not have to beat out Crowell. I think Carlos Hyde was the starter he had to beat out and he did.

I am looking forward to the d tackle competition. I think we have 4-5 solid options, no great ones. Looking for a couple of the young ones to step up and the others to provide a decent rotation.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Position Battles - 07/09/22 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by FORTBROWNFAN
[quote=lampdogg]


That, and sure hands.

You know anytime I see or hear someone talking about WR's hands - I think of one player. It's a painful memory - but Quincy 'Stone Hands' Morgan pops right into my head ! Ugh.
Posted By: GratefulDawg Re: Position Battles - 07/09/22 04:11 PM
Can David Njoku be a No. 1 tight end? Browns key questions for 2022

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/20...t-end-browns-key-questions-for-2022.html


By Ashley Bastock, cleveland.com
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- As a social media debate consumed Twitter earlier this offseason, Browns tight end David Njoku wasn’t paying attention.

The discourse centered around Njoku’s flashy new contract extension, a four-year deal worth up to $56.75 million that makes him the fifth-highest paid tight end in the NFL, putting him in the company of first-team All-Pros and multiple-time Pro Bowlers (San Francisco’s George Kittle, Kansas City’s Travis Kelce, Philadelphia’s Dallas Goedert and Baltimore’s Mark Andrews).

“It’s actually my first time hearing that the Browns overpaid me,” Njoku said during the team’s OTAs this offseason. “I didn’t hear that. I mean, it’s my first time. It is what it is. I feel like we are going to do great things together in the near future.”

Njoku may have tuned out the social media noise, but on the field he will have to answer one burning question: Can he be a No. 1 tight end?

At this moment, it’s an unanswerable question for sure. But what’s inarguable is Njoku likely has untapped potential, and the Browns believe that with more time, experience, and targets, he can get there.

With Austin Hooper released and now with the Tennessee Titans, Njoku is the undisputed No. 1 tight end on the roster. In his career, however, Njoku has only averaged 36 receptions, 428 yards and 3.5 touchdowns in his four healthy seasons (he only played four games in 2019 after breaking his wrist and landing in Freddie Kitchens’ doghouse).

Considering coach Kevin Stefanski and quarterback Deshaun Watson like to utilize tight ends in the pass game (Watson has thrown about 20% of his 104 career TD passes to tight ends), it wouldn’t be shocking for Njoku to get the second-most targets behind star wide receiver Amari Cooper, even if there is a decreased use of 13 personnel (one running back, three tight ends).

With the extension, the Browns are seemingly paying Njoku based on potential rather than past production.

He certainly has potential, considering Njoku is only 25 and has been in the league for five years.

“He is young,” Stefanski said during OTAs. “I do not know if he physically can grow any more, but his game can grow. That is a conversation I have had with him. I do expect his game to grow, and it is not as simple as saying, ‘Hey, we are going to throw more balls to you.’ I think his game will grow, and you will see it in the run game and in the pass game, and you will see it kind of throughout. I think he is committed to that. David wants to get better, and to be 25, I think you have that opportunity to get better.”

Over the years Njoku’s greatly improved his blocking, something that has drawn praise from both Stefanski and GM Andrew Berry. Last season he was the best blocking tight end on the team with a 72.4 pass blocking grade and 64.1 run blocking grade, according to Pro Football Focus.

The pass game is where he has the most room to grow.

Drops have been one of his biggest perceived issues, and while he still has room to improve there, he’s come a long way already. Njoku dropped eight balls during the 2018 season, but had just three in 2020 and two last season, according to PFF.

There’s also room to improve his route running.

“Especially on plays where he has to break down and make cuts,“ offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt said. “David is really fast and a really good straight-line runner so improvement in his route-running ability [is possible].”

Considering his size at 6-4, 246 pounds, Njoku could be the kind of tight end to get eight touchdowns a season, as Mary Kay Cabot has argued. So far he’s averaged only three, but when you talk about potential, Njoku’s development combined with Watson’s accuracy understandably has the Browns optimistic that he can perform in the No. 1 role.

That experience that Njoku is going to gain, and the confidence that comes with being No. 1 on the depth chart may ultimately be what helps Njoku reach his potential -- his new contract reinforces the front office’s expectations.

Njoku will have more of an opportunity than ever before due to increased experience and targets.

Regardless of the social media chatter, he has the chance this year to prove he can be a No. 1 tight end and quiet the critics for good.
Posted By: AZBrown Re: Position Battles - 07/09/22 06:03 PM
Stating the obvious here, but -

If Njoku can really step up, that's going to be a big factor in any games Brissett starts.
Posted By: Baker_Dawg Re: Position Battles - 07/10/22 03:03 AM
Another delusional move by the FO. Njoku is a chronic underachiever, a fat contract is not changing that.

This will prove to be another ignorant move.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Position Battles - 07/10/22 09:54 AM
Originally Posted by Baker_Dawg
Another delusional move by the FO. Njoku is a chronic underachiever, a fat contract is not changing that.

This will prove to be another ignorant move.

While your comments are motivated by bitterness, I tend to agree that Njoku is a player who gets a lot of love for little reason.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: Position Battles - 07/10/22 01:06 PM
That has nothing to do with the 800 poind gorilla in the room that nobody is talking about.
The Browns now have over 7 front 7 players who have no business being on the field in crunch time and can't stop the run, or hold the line.
Rochelle, Curtis Weaver, Weatherly, Jordan Elliott, Wims, Winovich, and Tommy Togiai -who is yet to prove himself.
Now, with analytics,
We've already seen in the past, that the dummys on the sidelines will take the stars off the field,
there was a point in a game last year where they took Myles Garrett, and Clowney, and whomever the Nose tackle was, M. Jackson I believe, off the field, I presume to see how they would do, and the defense went backwards on every play, and in a couple of plays gave up a score.
So we already know, the team won't shy away from putting these guys who can't play against real competition onto the field, and all as a group.
So we can presume the Browns defense is going to get ran all over, like a 1980's Atlanta falcons team, or a 1980's saints team,
it is going to be a real disaster.
We know that the lesser players get snaps on the field.
Snaps on the field are too important to have a plethora of guys who whiff on tackles and can't hold the line on the field at the same time.
The 800 pound gorilla in the room is
the Browns have too many of them.

(Yes, it there has been a year this bad before, it was the year when at linebacker, the Browns said, (ehh, were fine cutting anyone who can play we'll get a bunch of unproven guys, and it was the first year of the 3 drafted linebackers, Andra Davis, Ben Taylor, and whomever the 3rd one was.
It was, iirc, the year that the ravens runningback ran for almost 1 million yards against the Browns, combined in their 2 matchups.
Because,
see,
You can't just put a bunch of guys on the field that YOU KNOW CAN'T PLAY, and expect, in the NFL, that it will be anything other than a total disaster.

But I'm overreacting, I tend to,
but hey.
I'll overreact Today,
Y'all can overreact at 4:30 pm on gameday, when you begin to see the results of having
nobody who can stop the # # Run!
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Position Battles - 07/10/22 01:46 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by Baker_Dawg
Another delusional move by the FO. Njoku is a chronic underachiever, a fat contract is not changing that.

This will prove to be another ignorant move.

While your comments are motivated by bitterness, I tend to agree that Njoku is a player who gets a lot of love for little reason.

Let's face it - Njoku has not earned that contract. His play on the field has been fair to middling, with flashes of athleticism. He's being paid for potentially taking all that god given athleticism and becoming the TE he should be.... The guy is a man child, physically a freak. But without consistently getting open, catching and blocking - the physical tools mean little. Hoping the FO got it right. They got it all wrong with Austin Hooper.
Posted By: eotab Re: Position Battles - 07/10/22 02:19 PM
I like Njoku, he came to us a raw talent so I don't see him underachieving. Actually I saw him as under UTILIZED as last couple of years the set plays have gone to Hooper and not Njoku, he wasted a lot of good reps as Hooper would catch and fall down - Njoku has the talent to go up and get the ball. I don't remember seeing him drop a ball. I'm sure he has but it was not a common thing. He worked hard on his blocking and now earned the Featured TE position on our team. We will see what he's got but I'm expecting a breakout season for him.

jmho
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: Position Battles - 07/10/22 03:18 PM
Njoku has earned that contract, whether you can see a good TE when he's in front of you, or not.
Posted By: Bull_Dawg Re: Position Battles - 07/10/22 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by Baker_Dawg
Another delusional move by the FO. Njoku is a chronic underachiever, a fat contract is not changing that.

This will prove to be another ignorant move.

While your comments are motivated by bitterness, I tend to agree that Njoku is a player who gets a lot of love for little reason.

Let's face it - Njoku has not earned that contract. His play on the field has been fair to middling, with flashes of athleticism. He's being paid for potentially taking all that god given athleticism and becoming the TE he should be.... The guy is a man child, physically a freak. But without consistently getting open, catching and blocking - the physical tools mean little. Hoping the FO got it right. They got it all wrong with Austin Hooper.

You can't catch it if the QB is still holding it. Njoku did consistently get open and block.

When they got Hooper, we needed a TE. When they got rid of him, it was also the right move. Kind of like Baker.
Posted By: Swish Re: Position Battles - 07/10/22 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by eotab
I like Njoku, he came to us a raw talent so I don't see him underachieving. Actually I saw him as under UTILIZED as last couple of years the set plays have gone to Hooper and not Njoku, he wasted a lot of good reps as Hooper would catch and fall down - Njoku has the talent to go up and get the ball. I don't remember seeing him drop a ball. I'm sure he has but it was not a common thing. He worked hard on his blocking and now earned the Featured TE position on our team. We will see what he's got but I'm expecting a breakout season for him.

jmho

i love chief, but too many times he's got his QB killed by straight up missing a block. I remember one his rookie season that damn near murdered Kizer. and he had one or two where the defender ended up getting a clear shot on Baker.

he's been under utilized, but it does work both ways. TE's have to at least not be a liability in the run/passing game where they are required to block or chip. He needs to be at least adequate in that department. Hell, i think we saw more Bryant than chief at one point, and i bet a big reason is because Bryant earned reps by not being a crap blocker.

i've defended chief a lot, but this year he really needs to show it. Baker loved using his TEs, but chief didn't get many reps. Watson will throw to anybody, so if he STILL doesn't get much reps/targets, then we can officially say that it's all on him. Especially with Amari, Bryant, DPJ and our RBs, njoku won't have any excuses on the field from a play calling perspective.

Mark Andrews, Travis Kelce, Gronk, and all the other big time TEs we have in this league are also not massive liabilities in run/pass blocking. if chief wants to be among that group, he needs to put together a full season.

imma call him a bust if Bryant ends up with more targets than him this season.
Posted By: tastybrownies Re: Position Battles - 07/11/22 12:41 AM
Hooper..... I'll never forget him. Every time he caught the ball he fell down.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Position Battles - 07/11/22 06:37 AM
Originally Posted by Bull_Dawg
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by Baker_Dawg
Another delusional move by the FO. Njoku is a chronic underachiever, a fat contract is not changing that.

This will prove to be another ignorant move.

While your comments are motivated by bitterness, I tend to agree that Njoku is a player who gets a lot of love for little reason.

Let's face it - Njoku has not earned that contract. His play on the field has been fair to middling, with flashes of athleticism. He's being paid for potentially taking all that god given athleticism and becoming the TE he should be.... The guy is a man child, physically a freak. But without consistently getting open, catching and blocking - the physical tools mean little. Hoping the FO got it right. They got it all wrong with Austin Hooper.

You can't catch it if the QB is still holding it. Njoku did consistently get open and block.

When they got Hooper, we needed a TE. When they got rid of him, it was also the right move. Kind of like Baker.

Just wrapping this in to several comments and not just at you.

I am not talking about Hooper.

No matter the reasons, Joke hasn't played all that well. Maybe this will be the year. Maybe this will be like the past "maybe" years we were hoping for, yet they never came.

Trust me, I am not rooting against the guy. I am all for him being as good as many of you think he is.
Posted By: GratefulDawg Re: Position Battles - 07/16/22 12:20 PM
Five Cleveland Browns camp position battles: Who's No. 2 (at receiver) behind No. 2 (Amari Cooper)

https://www.beaconjournal.com/story...-jordan-elliott-taven-bryan/10046281002/


BEREA – There are plenty of knowns about the Browns as they head into training camp.

Myles Garrett and Jadeveon Clowney are a known one-two punch on the edge of the defense. Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt are the same in the backfield.

There are, however, some unknowns the Browns hope to answer through the course of training camp. Or, at least, provide themselves with a clearer idea of how a position group figures to look, even if it could change as the regular season progresses.

What's below is a look at five such position battles for the Browns which figure to be in the spotlight during training camp.

David Bell, Donovan Peoples-Jones, Anthony Schwartz in fight for No. 2 receiver
There's no question who the No. 1 receiver figures to be for the Browns. He's the one wearing No. 2, newly-acquired Amari Cooper.

Who emerges as No. 2 behind Cooper, though, remains a major question. That's not to say there aren't options.

Donovan People-Jones, Anthony Schwartz and David Bell are all mid-to-late-round draft picks in the past three years. All three are also seen as distinct possibilities to emerge as that No. 2 option behind Cooper.

Peoples-Jones, the 2020 sixth-round pick out of Michigan, led the Browns in receiving a year ago with 597 yards and was fourth on the team with 34 catches. Schwartz, the 2021 third-round pick out of Auburn, had 10 catches for 135 yards in an injury-plagued rookie year.

Bell, the third-round pick out of Purdue in April, is the intriguing one. The rookie flashed his talent during OTAs and minicamp, but what remains to be seen is if that can carry over into camp and the games.

Jordan Elliott, Taven Bryan, Perion Winfrey hope to answer defensive tackle question
Nine of the Browns' 11 starters on defense a year ago return. The two not back reside at the same position: Defensive tackle.

The Browns made big offseason splashes at quarterback, receiver and even defensive end with the return of Clowney, but their biggest move to address the interior defensive line was fifth-year pro Taven Bryan. A free-agent signee from the Jacksonville Jaguars, Bryan had played in 63 games, accumulating 86 tackles and 5.5 sacks, along with one forced fumble and one pass defensed.

Beyond Bryan and seven-year pro Sheldon Day, a holdover from a year ago, is a collection of young players all still trying to make their mark. That includes 2020 third-round pick Jordan Elliott, 2021 fourth-rounder Tommy Togiai and a fourth-round pick this year, Perrion Winfrey.

Elliott has started four of the 32 games he's played since being drafted out of Missouri, and has a combined 41 tackles and 0.5 sacks. A former Ohio State Buckeye, Togiai played in six games as a rookie. He had 16 tackles and 0.5 sacks last season.

Cornerback beyond Denzel Ward and Greg Newsome II
When healthy, the Browns boast one of the NFL's top cornerbacks in Denzel Ward. On the other side, Greg Newsome II showed more than enough to give them confidence he can be the perfect complement to Ward.

After that, it's questions. Some questions are due to youth, some due to health.

The Browns traded Troy Hill, their primary No. 3 corner a year ago, on draft weekend. That was after they had made Mississippi State's Martin Emerson their first selection of the draft in the third round with the No. 68 pick.

Emerson provides more youth to the position. However, what the Browns really want to see is Greedy Williams, a 2019 second-round pick, be able to build off his 16-game 2021 season.

Williams, who missed the 2020 season due to a shoulder injury, would provide a veteran alternative to play on the outside opposite Ward when Newsome slides into the slot. If he's unable to do that, it forces Emerson or A.J. Green – who's played 14 games in two years after being called up from the practice squad – into that role.

Running back behind Nick Chubb and Kareem Hunt
Much like cornerback, the top of the running back depth chart isn't just good, it's elite. Chubb and Hunt give the Browns exactly what one wants in the position.

It's not even that they are lacking in depth behind those two. Instead, it may be a glut of backs the Browns are dealing with.

Along with those two is D'Ernest Johnson, who signed a one-year extension with the team in June after two seasons of showing flashes of greatness when pressed into duties. Johnson averaged 5.3 yards on 100 carries a year ago, including 146 yards in a Week 7 win over the Denver Broncos and 123 yards in the season finale against the Cincinnati Bengals.

It's not just Johnson, though. Demetric Felton Jr. was drafted in 2021 out of UCLA ostensibly to be a running back, although he's also lined up multiple times at receiver.

Then there's rookie Jerome Ford, who was taken in the fourth round out of Cincinnati. How he factors into the equation, especially if Felton gets more time in the backfield than he does at receiver, remains in question.

Anthony Walker, Jacob Phillips and Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah at Mike linebacker
VersatilThis is really an example of the versatility the Browns believe they have at the linebacker spot. A year ago, Anthony Walker Jr. was primarily the Mike linebacker, with then-rookie Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah at the Will and Sione Takitaki at the Sam.

This year, with a healthy Jacob Phillips in the mix, that Mike spot could feature any number of combinations. Defensive coordinator Joe Woods indicated during OTAs that anyone from Walker to Phillips to, even, Owusu-Koramoah could slide into that role.

In that latter situation, Walker or Phillips could actually side to the outside linebacker spot that Owusu-Koramoah normally plays. It's a situation the Browns have tinkered with already during the offseason program, and will likely do the same in training camp.
Posted By: GratefulDawg Re: Position Battles - 07/16/22 12:40 PM
Video: Browns DL coach breaks down Perrion Winfrey's exciting tape

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2022/07/16/perrion-winfrey-browns-chris-kiffin-nfl-draft/


There were many who pegged DT Perrion Winfrey as a potential target of the Cleveland Browns in the second round of the 2022 NFL draft. Instead, the team traded out of the second round but still wound up adding Winfrey in the fourth round. We will find out if his fall was for a reason or if he becomes the next Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah, a steal.

Not only does Winfrey have Browns fans excited about his potential to plug a big need but his first media availability provided a lot of energy and excitement as well.

Since being drafted, we’ve seen Winfrey putting up big weight in a workout, predicated as a day three draft pick that could start and make the preseason ‘All-Rookie Team.’

Our Josh Keatley broke down what Cleveland is getting from Winfrey as well.

As the team ramps up to training camp, Nathan Zegura hosted defensive line coach Chris Kiffin to look at some of Winfrey’s tape:



Important to note how Winfrey was used in college, playing over the center, and still being able to make an impact. In Cleveland, as discussed, the Oklahoma star will be used to get penetration as a 3-technique or 2i defensive tackle.

The combination of speed, power and motor shown in the video could combine to help Winfrey live up to the hype surrounding him this offseason. We will see what happens as training camp opens up in a little over a week.
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