I tried. i tried my hardest to buy into the guy, and i thought he proved himself. but i just cant anymore. his defense almost costed us the game last week, but then today was just such an epic collapse, i can't find any justification for us to keep him, other than the fact that we are on a short week.
from the defensive line being a joke in the middle, to the secondary - which is his SPECIALTY - being out of position, undisciplined, and just completely inept is enough to call for Wood's head. i've argued with some good posters about this in gameday chat and across the board, but you guys are right, and i was wrong.
We've had these game changing blown coverages too many times since Woods has been the DC. He's had plenty of time and personnel upgrades to deal with the problem...... and he hasn't. He's got to go.
I tried. i tried my hardest to buy into the guy, and i thought he proved himself. but i just cant anymore. his defense almost costed us the game last week, but then today was just such an epic collapse, i can't find any justification for us to keep him, other than the fact that we are on a short week.
from the defensive line being a joke in the middle, to the secondary - which is his SPECIALTY - being out of position, undisciplined, and just completely inept is enough to call for Wood's head. i've argued with some good posters about this in gameday chat and across the board, but you guys are right, and i was wrong.
I tried. i tried my hardest to buy into the guy, and i thought he proved himself. but i just cant anymore. his defense almost costed us the game last week, but then today was just such an epic collapse, i can't find any justification for us to keep him, other than the fact that we are on a short week.
from the defensive line being a joke in the middle, to the secondary - which is his SPECIALTY - being out of position, undisciplined, and just completely inept is enough to call for Wood's head. i've argued with some good posters about this in gameday chat and across the board, but you guys are right, and i was wrong.
fire joe woods.
What I want to know is was it the calls, or the Blown coverage by the players again. Right now I have no clue.
Honestly, yes we’re to that point. We have no reason to be that bad defensively
They preach accountability. Someone has to be accountable for the last two weeks.
Is it Woods? Is it the players? Stef?
I really don't know. But you can't preach to the players accountability and not take any as a coaching staff.
I don't know what it looks like...I am not advocating firing anyone...but you're up 13 with 2:22 left...where the other team has burned all of their timeouts.
The expected outcome to lose that game has to be close to 0%. And yet, we did it.
Honestly, yes we’re to that point. We have no reason to be that bad defensively
They preach accountability. Someone has to be accountable for the last two weeks.
Is it Woods? Is it the players? Stef?
I really don't know. But you can't preach to the players accountability and not take any as a coaching staff.
I don't know what it looks like...I am not advocating firing anyone...but you're up 13 with 2:22 left...where the other team has burned all of their timeouts.
The expected outcome to lose that game has to be close to 0%. And yet, we did it.
There is one player I've seen putting his hands up in the air apparently questioning what players were doing after big plays the past two weeks.....John Johnson. Either he is right or its a defense mechanism, IMO.
Honestly, yes we’re to that point. We have no reason to be that bad defensively
They preach accountability. Someone has to be accountable for the last two weeks.
Is it Woods? Is it the players? Stef?
I really don't know. But you can't preach to the players accountability and not take any as a coaching staff.
I don't know what it looks like...I am not advocating firing anyone...but you're up 13 with 2:22 left...where the other team has burned all of their timeouts.
The expected outcome to lose that game has to be close to 0%. And yet, we did it.
There is one player I've seen putting his hands up in the air apparently questioning what players were doing after big plays the past two weeks.....John Johnson. Either he is right or its a defense mechanism, IMO.
John Johnson and Delpit never seem to be on the same page.
Woods and Berry , both should go. You don’t give 100 million to a corner who hasn’t proved he can be relied on has had 1 tackle this season. Go into season with an 230m qb and one serviceable receiver And refuse to fix the middle of the defense. You have garbage in the front 7, weak ass DTs and slow linebackers. And a de who believes he is elite but really is just above average. Elite is watt/bosa/Donald. Clowney going down hurt because he is our best DE. But the soft coverages, no one communicating in secondary, poor tackling is all on woods and for a part stefanski and his weak ass camps. Nothing we’ve seen from this staff tells me to give it more time. Hell best players we brought in were from Dorsey
Honestly, yes we’re to that point. We have no reason to be that bad defensively
They preach accountability. Someone has to be accountable for the last two weeks.
Is it Woods? Is it the players? Stef?
I really don't know. But you can't preach to the players accountability and not take any as a coaching staff.
I don't know what it looks like...I am not advocating firing anyone...but you're up 13 with 2:22 left...where the other team has burned all of their timeouts.
The expected outcome to lose that game has to be close to 0%. And yet, we did it.
There is one player I've seen putting his hands up in the air apparently questioning what players were doing after big plays the past two weeks.....John Johnson. Either he is right or its a defense mechanism, IMO.
John Johnson and Delpit never seem to be on the same page.
I understand we could never hire him for many reasons but a coach like Rex Ryan as a DC would get this D in the top 10and playing much better than it does. I really believe that.
Honestly, yes we’re to that point. We have no reason to be that bad defensively
They preach accountability. Someone has to be accountable for the last two weeks.
Is it Woods? Is it the players? Stef?
I really don't know. But you can't preach to the players accountability and not take any as a coaching staff.
I don't know what it looks like...I am not advocating firing anyone...but you're up 13 with 2:22 left...where the other team has burned all of their timeouts.
The expected outcome to lose that game has to be close to 0%. And yet, we did it.
There is one player I've seen putting his hands up in the air apparently questioning what players were doing after big plays the past two weeks.....John Johnson. Either he is right or its a defense mechanism, IMO.
John Johnson and Delpit never seem to be on the same page.
Agreed.
Further.....In Stefanski's press conference, he made comment to young players playing like their young. I wonder if this was in reference to Delpit?
I guess when it was being posted about Stefanski being a poor coach and taking all the grief for saying such a thing has come to fruition. After all, who's Woods boss and responsible for the game plan? I am pretty sure the Browns do not have a top 5 defense.
I blame Woods for not adjusting and trying to mix it up to get more pressure, but I wont blame him on the player miscommunication. That's on Delpit, Newsome (last week), and Ward (this week).
delpit is frustrating but what you're saying is true.
my issue is that what's Ward's excuse? he should know better. The floodgates opened on his watch. and the fact that our secondary is this confused from a DC who was an excellent secondary coach is appalling.
and the middle of our defense is a safe space for every offense. run, catch, doesn't matter.
I blame Woods for not adjusting and trying to mix it up to get more pressure, but I wont blame him on the player miscommunication. That's on Delpit, Newsome (last week), and Ward (this week).
bro miscommunication falls directly on the coach though.
I blame Woods for not adjusting and trying to mix it up to get more pressure, but I wont blame him on the player miscommunication. That's on Delpit, Newsome (last week), and Ward (this week).
bro miscommunication falls directly on the coach though.
If we had scrubs running these positions, I'd agree with you, but we don't.
I question why we don't play to our players' strengths. John Johnson was one of the top safeties in the league with the Rams, he split time between SS and FS with them and graded out quite a bit higher at SS than FS yet we use him almost exclusively at FS. Ward's and Newsome's strengths coming out of college were that they were both really good man to man corners yet we play an awful lot of zone.
I question why we don't play to our players' strengths. John Johnson was one of the top safeties in the league with the Rams, he split time between SS and FS with them and graded out quite a bit higher at SS than FS yet we use him almost exclusively at FS. Ward's and Newsome's strengths coming out of college were that they were both really good man to man corners yet we play an awful lot of zone.
Biggest reason woods needs to go, trying to fit square pegs into round holes. It’s why the good teams have player turnover and still seem to be able to plug players in and not miss a beat. They coach them up and make their scheme easy to understand. Woods by all accounts runs an overly complex scheme which would attribute to the confusion. So instead of simplifying calls and coverages he just keeps forcing that square peg. He needs to go
I understand we could never hire him for many reasons but a coach like Rex Ryan as a DC would get this D in the top 10and playing much better than it does. I really believe that.
Would LOVE Rex Ryan in here! Give me him right now. He's the type of personality we need Stat. He can have fun but rip your damn head off. Similar to Gregg Williams, one of the best defensive coordinators we ever had.
The over-reaction post of the month award goes to...
Are you serious? How many 4th qtr meltdowns do you want to see before realizing there's a defensive management problem? Even in our playoff year we were doing that....remember the Cowboys and Titans games?
The over-reaction post of the month award goes to...
Are you serious? How many 4th qtr meltdowns do you want to see before realizing there's a defensive management problem? Even in our playoff year we were doing that....remember the Cowboys and Titans games?
Exactly! YES! We have a winner!!!! I don't know what's up with some fans but they've become psychologically conditioned to accept mediocrity after all these years of losing. It only takes a comparison to high bar championship teams to get it.
You have to lead by example. If someone isn't getting it done you fire them, bring someone else in, or make a damn adjustment. You don't just live with it.
The first step to building a great team is to set a standard. If you underperform there need to be consequences, mainly if it's a repeated pattern of let downs, bad game prep, losses. I've used this example 500 times, but take a look at Ohio State. Do you think they would let the type of stuff that happens on our defense fly? No way in hell!
Bottom line, you cannot accept mediocrity. Set the standard and enforce the rules. That's how you build a winning culture. Personally I don't believe Stefanski is tough enough to run the team.
The Browns OFFENSE< not Joe Woods coached defense, But the Browns OFFENSE had 2 drives near the end with a 24-?? lead, but a 2 score lead.
And the Browns on offense, after 3, 3 very pedestrian, lack energy, snaps that were slow developing handoffs on 2 of em, the Browns OFFENSE faced 4th down and 26. Twenty SIX, with the game on the line. And a team built to run the ball with leads.
I checked out 2 weeks ago, good thing I did, this whole NFL is just a factory of heartache.
I didn't even watch a large portion of this game, and was better off for it.
Same Joe Woods Defense that let Trace Mcsorley and Lamar Jackson coming back from the locker room beat them with 2 minutes to go. And let Chad Freaking Henne run for 13 yards on 3rd and 14 in playoff game.
Our defense has been terrible and it should be better than it is. This is year 3. The holes in the D yesterday were mind-boggling. The lack of outside containment on our defensive left was bad. The blown coverages are inexcusable. The lack of pressure on the qb is disturbing.
However, firing him now does what? Please don't give me emotionally driven responses. Are we going to change schemes during the season? Are we going to force players who already seem intellectually lacking to learn a new scheme and techniques? Are we going to show desperation after just two games and a .500 record? Nah, that would be dumb.
I do think Woods needs to get the D to ramp it up or he will be gone at the conclusion of the season.
Do not make make an emotional decision. Instead, use logic and reason.
I’m not someone who wants to haphazardly blitz all the time and send guys and be Uber aggressive, but I also can’t stand playing on our heels and soft coverage either. It seems like we don’t get pressure nor do we cover lol. So dumb
How many more times do we have to see the same ^&*%$ from a Woods defense before we simply move on?
How many more pre-seasons will I have to point out the folly of "resting" starters before the damn season even starts? Only to watch this crap over and over again? We should be in full song by week 7-8.
Groundhog Day was funny and was meant to be funny.
Woods is not the right man for the job. The sooner we replace him the better. He isn't it. It's time to move on.
His entire defensive philosophy is a problem. Our team doesn't impose our will on the other team. Nobody seems to play with any emotion either. They mirror Joe Woods demeanor.
We need a field general on defense. Someone with fire. Someone who cares.
Our defense has been terrible and it should be better than it is. This is year 3. The holes in the D yesterday were mind-boggling. The lack of outside containment on our defensive left was bad. The blown coverages are inexcusable. The lack of pressure on the qb is disturbing.
However, firing him now does what? Please don't give me emotionally driven responses. Are we going to change schemes during the season? Are we going to force players who already seem intellectually lacking to learn a new scheme and techniques? Are we going to show desperation after just two games and a .500 record? Nah, that would be dumb.
I do think Woods needs to get the D to ramp it up or he will be gone at the conclusion of the season.
Do not make make an emotional decision. Instead, use logic and reason.
bro the scheme isn't the issue! its the fact that its year 3 and the defense still doesn't understand the scheme! its the constant miscommunication and being out of position, which lets me know that the scheme isn't being taught properly. itd be one thing if WAS a scheme problem, but we would see evidence such as that. for example, there wouldn't be much of ANY series were the defense looks like a playoff caliber D. we've seen plenty of flashes of that. we've seen plenty of times our defense shutting down offenses.
what we see is undisciplined football. you dont have to change the scheme to enforce some damn discipline. you dont have to change the scheme to make sure players understand their assignments. you have to COACH that, and clearly Woods isn't effective in coaching that into the players. it would be the same thing if the offense had these problems, such as getting dumb penalties or not knowing the plays and assignments. the scheme wouldnt be the problem, it'd be the OC/HC not coaching with discipline being the emphasis.
look at the raiders last season. they didn't change the scheme when Gruden got fired. it was a new voice coaching the same scheme, and they got to the playoffs.
yesterday was a very crazy day for the NFL. Ravens blew the biggest lead of the week to the dolphins, fight in Bucs-Saints game, etc...
but i woke up this morning still hot. joe woods gotta get fired for that. unexceptable, and i dont care what happened around the league. he's responsible for the browns defense, and under his watch we've had far too much blow coverages and confusion in the secondary from a guy who literally specializes in DB coaching. dude gotta go.
and stefanski needs to be catching more heat as well. this is HIS team after all, and the bucks stops with him. he's clearly not drilling the importance of discipline and other factors on the defensive side of the ball, including NOT making the command decision to yank felton off the damn field over his horrible play on punt returns.
I do think Woods needs to get the D to ramp it up or he will be gone at the conclusion of the season.
My concern is that if this continues throughout the entire season, Haslam gets trigger happy and cleans house. In fact, I'm mentally preparing myself for this scenario.
Our defense has been terrible and it should be better than it is. This is year 3. The holes in the D yesterday were mind-boggling. The lack of outside containment on our defensive left was bad. The blown coverages are inexcusable. The lack of pressure on the qb is disturbing.
However, firing him now does what? Please don't give me emotionally driven responses. Are we going to change schemes during the season? Are we going to force players who already seem intellectually lacking to learn a new scheme and techniques? Are we going to show desperation after just two games and a .500 record? Nah, that would be dumb.
I do think Woods needs to get the D to ramp it up or he will be gone at the conclusion of the season.
Do not make make an emotional decision. Instead, use logic and reason.
Fair enough. I have a question: IF the D cannot get it done (with players who already seem intellectually lacking to learn a new scheme and technique) and Woods is fired, what is the likelihood that ANYONE hired to coach these guys can actually be successful? New teacher, same dummies theory. Me, I change the dummies. An NFL team cannot succeed with guys who cannot grasp football at the NFL level. Interested to hear your football thoughts. Thanks.
Our defense certainly doesn’t play with any urgency or passion. I watch other teams that gang tackle, fly to the ball, etc. We are just soft.
This is a direct reflection of the team leadership. Stefanski is nothing more than an offensive coordinator. He is NOT a leader of men. Woods demeanor is the same. This team is passive and soft. It's not going anywhere under this leadership. Period.
Is Rob Ryan available? LOL What we did yesterday is almost impossible to do but yet we did it and we were the last ones to do it. Something like yesterday's fiasco happening so early in the season, could derail the rest of the year and we sure don't need any added destractions.
Oh, there is no way Woods, or anyone else on this coaching staff, is getting fired this early.... but, the heating pads on every one of their chairs should now be turned on and warming up.
They all have what is arguably the most talented rosters the Cleveland Browns have had since The Return, and it isn't even close, and yet these things are still occurring with enough consistency to prove that it isn't being addressed in any way.
Our defense certainly doesn’t play with any urgency or passion. I watch other teams that gang tackle, fly to the ball, etc. We are just soft.
This is a direct reflection of the team leadership. Stefanski is nothing more than an offensive coordinator. He is NOT a leader of men. Woods demeanor is the same. This team is passive and soft. It's not going anywhere under this leadership. Period.
Which I have been saying for 3-years. Stefanski is a system coach that cannot or will not change or adjust. He doesn't have the leadership skills to lead or inspire his people. He also doesn't believe in playing to his players strengths. It's his way of the highway. We have a bunch of good players playing the game under Stefanski's ideals instead of their skill sets. People are calling for Woods head but what difference will that make when the ultimate person responsible just skates along untouched. Last year, all we heard was it was the QB that couldn't hold the lead. Two games into the 2022 season and 2 games with double digit leads being blown - Ah, just exactly like last year accept now we want to blame the defense. So, you have to ask yourself, is it the defensive players, Woods, or the Head Coach? Some of the names have changed but the coaching philosophy hasn't and we're getting the same old tired results. Last time I checked, Woods was hand selected by Stefanski. Since Stefanski hired him to deploy his defensive scheme, shouldn't Stefanski be responsible for the results? Of course, he should, it's his hand selected coaches and players.
Like I said earlier this preseason, if Stefanski and the Browns go 5-12 this season he'll have a sub-500 3-year record of 25-26. With the money that's been spent, the players acquired, and the lofty expectations - producing a losing record over 3-years would be inexcusable.
The Browns were expected to win this season. They have the talent, and they have the schedule, especially early in the season to get off to a fast start. If that doesn’t happen, then Stefanski should certainly be in trouble. That may be more so with public opinion at that point but as we have seen with other things, once the momentum gets going in the world of public opinion, it’s hard to stop.
The Browns have gone through 12 coaches over the past 23 seasons. Just in the last 10 years, the team has had Freddie Kitchens, Gregg Williams, Hue Jackson, Mike Pettine, Rob Chudzinski, and Pat Shurmur at the head coaching position. Williams is the only one, outside of Stefanski's current record, Williams posted a Browns career winning mark at 5-3.
Before them, the last coach in Browns history with a winning record was Marty Schottenheimer who was there from 1984 through the 1988 season and had a 44-27 record. Bill Belichick, currently of the New England Patriots, once coached the Browns from 1991 through 1995 and finished with a sub-500 record at 36-44.
Posting a losing record is the quickest way out of Cleveland. Leading your team from a playoff contender to 2 consecutive losing seasons will make Stefanski's seat hot for sure. How hot remains to be seen but if the first 2-weeks are any indication of things to come that seat will be a raging fire by seasons end.
Seems like we had these same issues at the start of last season until Walker got injured and JJ3 took over all the defensive play calling. Maybe Denzel is on to something
Our defense has been terrible and it should be better than it is. This is year 3. The holes in the D yesterday were mind-boggling. The lack of outside containment on our defensive left was bad. The blown coverages are inexcusable. The lack of pressure on the qb is disturbing.
However, firing him now does what? Please don't give me emotionally driven responses. Are we going to change schemes during the season? Are we going to force players who already seem intellectually lacking to learn a new scheme and techniques? Are we going to show desperation after just two games and a .500 record? Nah, that would be dumb.
I do think Woods needs to get the D to ramp it up or he will be gone at the conclusion of the season.
Do not make make an emotional decision. Instead, use logic and reason.
I'm not really on the "fire Woods Now!" bandwagon. I agree with you that it's too early. But my feelings may very well change later and here's why. If the Browns keep playing the way they are, they aren't going to win many games. That's yet to be seen but the early indications are not good. Once it is, if it is determined, that the Browns simply have almost no shot at making the playoffs, I think it may very well be the time to make such a move.
The reasoning why is that it would give the team more time in the new D to be ready for next season. If say you get 6 or 8 games under your belt in the new D this season, it simply gives you more time in the new system than waiting to make such a move and try to install it all in the off season.. I understand that as of now watson is scheduled to come back in week 13, the 12th game, but most people seem to think, and I believe rightfully so, that he will be rusty. So at some point you have to consider whether it makes more sense to invest time in what may appear to be a wasted season or invest that time in the future.
Let's put it this way, watson will be the full time starter for the Browns in 2023. A full 17 games. He will have four years left on his contract. That's four years that we know the Browns will have a chance to be a contender to go all the way. Do we want to go into 2023 with a totally new defense? Or would it be better to go into it with a defense already somewhat familiar with the new D in real NFL game time?
I'm sure the answer will vary from person to person but I certainly think that's food for thought.
I just looked up the stats, and in 9 games during the 2020 playoff season, we allowed double digit scoring in the 4th qtr, including the huge almost comebacks by the Cowboys and Titans. We had 5 last year, and we were behind in a lot of those games so the opponents didn't have put up points to come back. We did let San Diego score 26 in the 4th. This is a problem that has plagued the Joe Woods led defense since he's been here....and it has not been fixed. Not firing him is the same as giving a 1-31 Hue Jackson another shot. We saw what happened there.
Seems like we had these same issues at the start of last season until Walker got injured and JJ3 took over all the defensive play calling. Maybe Denzel is on to something
It does seem that we are once again going down the same Rabbit Hole.
This link takes you to an article discussing Woods secondary coverage issues from the 2021 season...
Miscommunication or technique: Browns need to fix defensive issues The defensive breakdowns against the Chargers were clear to see, even if the reasons why were not. Oct 15, 2021
Pretty damning. Basically, we are good against the run and when things are a little more “halfcourt” like in basketball … but as soon as a team starts to just throw and pick up the pace we really struggle. Interesting. My basketball mind finally has our defense pegged a bit.
bro im never gonna let it go. should've never let go of Richardson in the first place. dude was solid in the middle, loved the team and the team loved him. we had the money to keep him.
Why do I bother. Only one person even replied, yet not a single one of you (other than one person) can point out where the problem lies in their opinion. Y'all just want to witch and moan. If it's the scheme why is the D playing so well n the first half??? If it's the players why haven't the coaches made a change, or done what needs to be done to correct the problem. IMO the problem is with both. The coaching needs to improve as well as the play. Prove me wrong.
Denzel Ward claims that Jets #84, Cory Davis was not his man...then when asked what his assignment was on that play, Ward says he was supposed to be covering "the flat".
Problem with Ward's answer...he didn't cover the flat either...Ward was 20 yds downfield from the Jets TE who was running an out into the flat on Ward's side..AND WAS BEING COVERED BY BROWNS LB, #28, JOK who had that TE covered. Ward wasn't covering anyone..!
Common sense applied...who calls a defense that uses the Browns best cover corner to break off of a WR running a deep pattern so the Browns best corner can cover the opponents flat..? I'm not buying Ward's excuse.
Time to remove the excuses the defensive backs are attempting to use..time to establish "a rule" that takes priority over any defensive call made...when in doubt, no receiver is allowed to run by a Browns CB.
Deep coverage is the #1 responsibility for Browns CBs. If there is any doubt, deep coverage is the #1 responsibility for Browns CBs.
Last season, when the Browns worked to simplify pass coverage, they went to man to man coverage, which translated into our CBs covering deep routes man to man. That might be the best way to simplify pass coverage/blown coverages.
MAC.. at the end of the day, the Safety should not be letting anyone get behind him. The last two games, our safeties are coming up and/or out of position. If they called a cloud cover two.. and not Cover -3, Ward is absolutely right!!... And if he says that in the media the he did, that meant Delpit had to be wrong!
Why do I bother. Only one person even replied, yet not a single one of you (other than one person) can point out where the problem lies in their opinion. Y'all just want to witch and moan. If it's the scheme why is the D playing so well n the first half??? If it's the players why haven't the coaches made a change, or done what needs to be done to correct the problem. IMO the problem is with both. The coaching needs to improve as well as the play. Prove me wrong.
Knowing a little more today by hearing words from the coaches and players
makes it somewhat easier to maybe figure it out.
Hearing Stephanski state that they as coaches had the players on the side line telling them what they expected the Jets to do
and that was they were going to try and get behind the D
and what they wanted the D players to do was not let anyone get behind you
Here's where it all started going bad
First off the Browns had timeouts left, now the coaches told the players what they wanted them to do
obviously the players weren't in the proper positions, no one was deep deep deep
I ask , did the coaches not see that ? If they did, why wouldn't you call a timeout, get the players together and tell them
you have to be deeper your not in the right position here's where you need to be
be ready to tackle and it'll keep the clock running
Players are starting to point the blame finger at each other
blaming Chubb is such a throw him under the bus to take the blame off the D and the coaches
Why do I bother. Only one person even replied, yet not a single one of you (other than one person) can point out where the problem lies in their opinion. Y'all just want to witch and moan. If it's the scheme why is the D playing so well n the first half??? If it's the players why haven't the coaches made a change, or done what needs to be done to correct the problem. IMO the problem is with both. The coaching needs to improve as well as the play. Prove me wrong.
I'll try. In every profession, you have leaders that perform well when there's no pressure. They're able to organize, they are decisive and effective. When the pressure hits, they choke, and their good judgment is suddenly suspect. Their lack of confidence trickles down and people start questioning themselves. I think that's where Joe Woods is. Some people overcome that with experience, some don't. JW led Browns defenses have given up an average of 9.2 points per 4th qtr played since game 1 of 2020. That is just not acceptable.....he can't get it done when it matters most.
Why do I bother. Only one person even replied, yet not a single one of you (other than one person) can point out where the problem lies in their opinion. Y'all just want to witch and moan. If it's the scheme why is the D playing so well n the first half??? If it's the players why haven't the coaches made a change, or done what needs to be done to correct the problem. IMO the problem is with both. The coaching needs to improve as well as the play. Prove me wrong.
I'll try. In every profession, you have leaders that perform well when there's no pressure. They're able to organize, they are decisive and effective. When the pressure hits, they choke, and their good judgment is suddenly suspect. Their lack of confidence trickles down and people start questioning themselves. I think that's where Joe Woods is. Some people overcome that with experience, some don't. JW led Browns defenses have given up an average of 9.2 points per 4th qtr played since game 1 of 2020. That is just not acceptable.....he can't get it done when it matters most.
For a two+ year sample size, that stat is OBSCENE.
Why do I bother. Only one person even replied, yet not a single one of you (other than one person) can point out where the problem lies in their opinion. Y'all just want to witch and moan. If it's the scheme why is the D playing so well n the first half??? If it's the players why haven't the coaches made a change, or done what needs to be done to correct the problem. IMO the problem is with both. The coaching needs to improve as well as the play. Prove me wrong.
Knowing a little more today by hearing words from the coaches and players
makes it somewhat easier to maybe figure it out.
Hearing Stephanski state that they as coaches had the players on the side line telling them what they expected the Jets to do
and that was they were going to try and get behind the D
and what they wanted the D players to do was not let anyone get behind you
Here's where it all started going bad
First off the Browns had timeouts left, now the coaches told the players what they wanted them to do
obviously the players weren't in the proper positions, no one was deep deep deep
I ask , did the coaches not see that ? If they did, why wouldn't you call a timeout, get the players together and tell them
you have to be deeper your not in the right position here's where you need to be
be ready to tackle and it'll keep the clock running
Players are starting to point the blame finger at each other
blaming Chubb is such a throw him under the bus to take the blame off the D and the coaches
Why do I bother. Only one person even replied, yet not a single one of you (other than one person) can point out where the problem lies in their opinion. Y'all just want to witch and moan. If it's the scheme why is the D playing so well n the first half??? If it's the players why haven't the coaches made a change, or done what needs to be done to correct the problem. IMO the problem is with both. The coaching needs to improve as well as the play. Prove me wrong.
Knowing a little more today by hearing words from the coaches and players
makes it somewhat easier to maybe figure it out.
Hearing Stephanski state that they as coaches had the players on the side line telling them what they expected the Jets to do
and that was they were going to try and get behind the D
and what they wanted the D players to do was not let anyone get behind you
Here's where it all started going bad
First off the Browns had timeouts left, now the coaches told the players what they wanted them to do
obviously the players weren't in the proper positions, no one was deep deep deep
I ask , did the coaches not see that ? If they did, why wouldn't you call a timeout, get the players together and tell them
you have to be deeper your not in the right position here's where you need to be
be ready to tackle and it'll keep the clock running
Players are starting to point the blame finger at each other
blaming Chubb is such a throw him under the bus to take the blame off the D and the coaches
As of right now, I see a team falling apart
looks familiar !
jmo ofc !
Wow, you mean we actually have veteran players calling out other players in the press - really, I thought that was a clear sign of immaturity to do something like that. Oh, I guess it only applies to some and not for others.
I hope this doesn't cause a divide. I saw where Ward made it clear he thought he was in the right coverage. I saw plenty of other commentary saying it looked like Ward was the only guy not in proper coverage.
I sure hope Ward is right because it isn't good for the locker room if he is throwing Delpit under the bus. We will never really know, but the guys on the team will know what is and what isn't.
Well, maybe we will as we see the D disintegrate and or Delpit kicking Wards ass.
I can read coverages. There is no way that Delpit should not have had the deep half on that play. Dude stands around way too much.
Then Delpit needs to be benched.
Accountability. I still haven't heard or seen any accountability from team other than the coach with the canned "it's all my responsibility" answer.
The Browns are devoid of leadership from Haslam to Berry to Stefanski to the players. The team's best player got his feelings hurt over booing. You can't make this stuff up.
The Browns will not turn this around because they are devoid of leadership. It's another season, another crapshow.
Joe Woods bears responsibility and so does Stefanski.
However, this is Woods direct responsibility. HC's have to delegate. This is Wood's scheme. Woods played a part with Berry to get players to fit the scheme.
Ward is an pro bowl player. They went and got JJ who is considered to be a good player. Delpit was a high draft pick. Newsome a first rounder.
Emerson was a high pick Greedy a second rounder. Harrison traded for and resigned. JOK a steal in the draft. Walker resigned and playing great. Myles first pick in the draft. Clowney first pick.
This is not about talent. These players were damn near hand picked to play in Woods scheme. Frankly, the scheme is not a bad scheme. Woods has to coach the scheme and make sure there is no miscommunication. That is his job.
Joe Woods needs to do a better job. If there are not improvements made to the problems. Then Stefanski needs to fire him.
I wonder if the Raven fans are whining like our fans. They had a ton of blown coverages last week. I see blown coverages in many games. Our fans like firing people.
I am not excusing the blown coverages, but the drama is nauseating. Fire this guy. Bench that guy. Sheesh!
GM, I agree with you. I think it is a combination of both. Obviously we aren't hearing what is relayed down to the defense and/or the process it is relayed. We've heard about the changing of the green dot and some of the remarks from players.
They need consistency in place of the process. Obviously this (should) will get better. I keep reading about accountability on here. Accountability doesn't mean quick reaction - fire people. Stefanski's first thing after the game or Monday's meeting should be asking Woods where the break down was in communication. What went right, what went wrong. What is Woods course of action(s) to fix these issues. (Since this was a major breakdown) What does he think will be the end result of his course of action(s). Why will this course of action(s) improve the process and success to the defense.
It is game two, firing Woods now only causes more chaos. This team needs consistency and be able to work these issues out. If firing is the end result, that needs to happen either towards the latter half of the season or at seasons end. Woods is fully aware his side of the ball played a terrible game. He's aware his seat is getting warmer. Stefanski as the leader of the team, needs to have that one on one talk. Then sit down with Woods and the defensive staff and get their input on the process as designed above. Firing people right away (situational depending) only causes more stress and takes away focus on moving forward to the next challenge/game. What it brings is - oh crap, they fired the last guy. Am i getting fired next??
Bringing it back to the players part GM. As for the players, my question or wondering....besides communication since that seems like the obvious answer. Are the players not trusting each other with their assignments? Are the players freelancing or over-extending their assignments? I know players can do too much instead of just doing their role. Instead of playing "team" defense, a player or players think they have to be superman out there and this can kill a defense. When in reality, just trust your teammates to do their job and you do yours. The offensive line is another place where usually these issues arise.
I wonder if the Raven fans are whining like our fans. They had a ton of blown coverages last week. I see blown coverages in many games. Our fans like firing people.
I am not excusing the blown coverages, but the drama is nauseating. Fire this guy. Bench that guy. Sheesh!
Well, happy Stefanski didn't overreact and replace Brissett with Dobbs....
This next part isn't directed at you Vers.
But we all have different opinions. We all get frustrated or upset about a game. What people have to understand is no matter the player. Players are human, they will have bad games, they will have great games. Calling for players or coaches heads...just have to think about the consequences to those actions. Also, every team is different. Some teams gel quickly at the start of the season, some it may take a game or more. It's the coaches job to try to get the most out of them right away.
Just look at this past two weeks so far. The first week there were teams that won or winning that on paper shouldn't of been winning. It felt like almost all the games were that way. The second week, just like our game....I swear every team blown or almost blew a lead (we just overachieved in blowing ours, ugh). Teams have ups, teams have downs. The way to stay in it is to minimize those downs.
I wonder if the Raven fans are whining like our fans. They had a ton of blown coverages last week. I see blown coverages in many games. Our fans like firing people.
I am not excusing the blown coverages, but the drama is nauseating. Fire this guy. Bench that guy. Sheesh!
After a quick look at their forums, yes they are. They actually did fire their DC last year.
I wonder if the Raven fans are whining like our fans. They had a ton of blown coverages last week. I see blown coverages in many games. Our fans like firing people.
I am not excusing the blown coverages, but the drama is nauseating. Fire this guy. Bench that guy. Sheesh!
After a quick look at their forums, yes they are. They actually did fire their DC last year.
Yes. "Whining" just like us with an added layer of profanity. They're whining to hire the last guy back... after whining non-stop about him last year.
I had been on the fence about Woods until midway through last season. After the first PIT game, I had seen enough. It seems that the very few times we blitz we are successful. The blitz packages come from all angles as our LB's, CB's & S's have all had success. Why are there so few blitzes?
The Woods scheme does not seem to put importance on 3rd down stops, as 3rd &6/7 are routinely converted into first downs. (This has been an issue for many DC's as I recall routinely knowing where the play was going prior to the 3rd down snap, and watch yet another 3rd down conversion. Thus keeping the D on the field.)
It has been stated that when the field shrinks and opponents are in the red zone, we are successful. But it sure seems like we give up 3 to 4 easy conversions that allow opponents to get into scoring range too many drives a game. These factors added to the fact that teams are averaging nearly 10 points in the fourth quarter during Woods tenure, making it very frustrating when the same mistakes continue to happen.
Same issue's cost us last season. Week 1. get the lead give up big pay TD next possession. The same thing happened against SD not too long after. I am positive it happened again but those are the ones that stick out. Now, this season is here and the same thing happens again twice in the first 2 games. Where is J. Peppers & D. Williams when you need them?
How can you control 97% of 2 games but yet be a near miracle 58 yard FG to escape being 0-2? How?
If Woods can not adjust his scheme, he needs to go sooner than later.
I wonder if the Raven fans are whining like our fans. They had a ton of blown coverages last week. I see blown coverages in many games. Our fans like firing people.
I am not excusing the blown coverages, but the drama is nauseating. Fire this guy. Bench that guy. Sheesh!
One thing to keep in mind, there's a difference between aw crap. We blew that game and aw crap, we blew that game again.
Thanks for the info. I guess it proves that many fans are clueless no matter which team they support. Firing coaches after going 1 and 1 is stupid.
I'm not talking about firing a coach after going 1-1. It's about giving up an average of 9.2 points in the 4th qtr over 2+ seasons, including quite a few losses and near losses directly related to meltdowns and miscues on the defense. I wonder if there's another team in the league that even comes close to that 9.2 points?
I think what baffles me is the lack of consistency. The fourth quarter stats are also concerning. Sometimes, I know that it's because we have a comfortable lead and we want the clock to run. That's really not been the case this year, though.
It seems like, in some games, we absolutely fire on all cylinders and pulverize the opposing offense. In other games, it seems like we don't know what anyone is supposed to be doing. It really seems like there needs to be streamlined communication first and foremost. Perhaps also some simplification? I'm not sure how many contingencies (If X, then Y) are taking place in our coverages. I have to imagine there are more of those in a base nickel defense like we run, but I could be wrong.
I don't want to fire Woods. I want him to do his job better.
Looking at those numbers makes me ask if this is a conditioning issue. 2nd quarter and 4th quarter. Are other teams just better conditioned and taking advantage of our fatigue? Maybe that fatigue is manifesting as mental errors more so than showing up in the physicality
I wonder if the Raven fans are whining like our fans. They had a ton of blown coverages last week. I see blown coverages in many games. Our fans like firing people.
I am not excusing the blown coverages, but the drama is nauseating. Fire this guy. Bench that guy. Sheesh!
Stating facts is not popular with some posters. The Ravens are a consistently good team who regularly make the playoffs. The situation with the Browns has been an ongoing problem for the past two seasons. Apples and oranges.
Anyone blaming the fans for their outrage is using misplaced blame on the situation. But then again victim shaming has become very popular. Trying to compare a single game to a two season pattern is not attractive.
I wonder if there's another team in the league that even comes close to that 9.2 points?
I can give you a breakdown by season. In 2020 the Browns averaged giving up 9.0 ppg in the fourth quarter. That placed them ranked at 28th in most points allowed in the fourth quarter. Only Seattle, Atlanta, Detroit and Las Vegas were worse. In 2021 the Browns ranked 24th by giving up an average of 7.6 ppg in the fourth quarter. Neither of those averages were as high as 9.2 ppg in the fourth quarter so it seems as though one of our sources are incorrect. But either way that's not good.
I wonder if there's another team in the league that even comes close to that 9.2 points?
I can give you a breakdown by season. In 2020 the Browns averaged giving up 9.0 ppg in the fourth quarter. That placed them ranked at 28th in most points allowed in the fourth quarter. Only Seattle, Atlanta, Detroit and Las Vegas were worse. In 2021 the Browns ranked 24th by giving up an average of 7.6 ppg in the fourth quarter. Neither of those averages were as high as 9.2 ppg in the fourth quarter so it seems as though one of our sources are incorrect. But either way that's not good.
I would feel much different today if I thought the issues were we lacked in talent.
These same players have played well together at times. This is about consistency and attention to detail. If there is something lacking in communication. It should be recognized and addressed by the DC. There has to be checks in place to insure all know what their assignments are.
The good news is everybody lost. We are in the same position as before the game.
It also good news that the problems are correctable. It is not like we have players playing that we know are a liability.
The additional good news was the play of Jacoby and Cooper. Cooper is as advertised. A reliable receiver.
Jacoby played better than expected. If he can continue to play like he did against he Jets. We may do better than expected.
I spent about 10 minutes reviewing the long TD pass that got the Jets back in the game. I was pausing the action, rewinding, moving forward in slow motion and I think I have diagnosed the problem. Note: Not positive about all the numbers, but I think I have the guys identified correctly.
To begin with, we were in Cover 4 w/2 Deep. That is not to be confused w/Quarters where you line 4 guys across, but the depth is different--as in--there are 4 guys close to the LOS. Those are two versions of Cover 4. Again, we are in Cover 4--2-Deep.
Okay, they run their RB out to the left flat and a WR is running a deep out on the left. We have a safety covering the left flat and Emerson is running w/the WR.
The pocket is centered, but Flacco is looking middle to right all the way.
Wison runs a deep post. We have Walker in the short intermediate middle zone. JJ is moving to cover Wilson's route. Delpit is standing flat footed on the stupid logo and even hedges a bit towards Wilson, who is already being covered by JJ.
On the right side, they run #83 out to the right flat. JOK is in that zone, so Ward was not covering the flat. His job should have been to trail the WR down the sideline while watching for 83 to turn his route up. So, Ward messed up. However, he should have had deep help from Delpit because the latter should have rolled his coverage that way once JJ went w/Wilson.
The result was that both Ward and Delpit made mistakes. Not just one of them. The other guys looked to be in position.
My conclusion that this was not the communication breakdown like we saw on some other plays the last two weeks. This appears to be mistakes by both Ward and Delpit. Not sure if GM is still watching this thread, but I think I just answered his original question.
When you look at the play. There was one receiver. There was no reason for Ward to stop his coverage.
Delpit also was wrong because there was one boundary receiver on that side. He has deep responsibility.
I maintain that on that play there should have been 6 db's and one linebacker." ============================================================
They both blew the play. Ward acted like he was handing off the coverage but there was no reason for him to leave that guy. The flat was not in play. They were trying to throw over the defense.
Delpit didn't move till it was to late. He had no excuse to not read that play and be in position for deep coverage to that side.
Look the Browns executed tonight!! And BTW.. the Browns played alot of man tonight. I dont know why they cannot play zone but they manned up.. again.. Players have to ezecute
Joe earned his paycheque and can stay another week (lol). We still need better play from our DT's as our pass rush tonight was not exerting much pressure on MT....
We still have defensive issues. Our DTs are weak. Delpit is terrible in coverage and our LBers are not the best tacklers. We also did not generate a pass rush last night. But overall, things were better. And yes, we did play a lot of man last night.
3 weeks in a row we play a team with an offensive line in the bottom 3rd of the league. Our pash rush should have dominated all 3 games but has been mediocre at best.
DT is a big area of concern, as it has been for most of us all offseason.
I think getting a stout DT and rangy FS would go a log ways for our defense
My concern is that we've known these positions to be issues since last season...and yet here we are...still...again.
So, WHAT DID JOE WOODS DO TO FIX HIS PROBLEM...PASS COVERAGE..!
Woods did the same thing he did last season when he got his butt in a jam with his confusing defenses that CREATED more problems than they solved...HE SIMPLIFIED HIS CONFUSING DEFENSIVE SCHEMES by simply assigning his DBs to play man to man defense, eliminating any doubt of whom was responsible for the deep threat.
This is the second time in two seasons that Woods attempted to play a confusing pass coverage that his players did not understand, resulting in blown coverage that cost the team WINS....and this is the 2nd time that Woods reverted back to MAN TO MAN coverage to fix the problem he created.
JMO, but I seriously doubt that Woods is going to a 3rd chance to EXPERIMENT with the Browns defense to the point that the defense GIVES GAMES AWAY !
TERRY PLUTO wrote the following this morning...link
Quote
I’ve been a member of the chorus screaming, “What kind of pass coverages are the Browns playing? Why are all those receivers wide open? What is Joe Woods doing?”
The Browns defensive coordinator appears to have made things simple. He had top cornerbacks Denzel Ward and Greg Newsome II stay with their receivers – old fashioned man-to-man coverage. The safeties seem to be in the right spots.
Sure, Pittsburgh had some open receivers. This is the NFL. But they weren’t outrageously open. There was little finger pointing and waving arms from the defensive backs, seemingly blaming each other for mental mistakes.
The Browns held Pittsburgh to three points in the second half. They had trouble defending the run in the first two quarters, but shut it down after the half. Give credit to Woods and his coaches for making adjustments.
Again, Woods is not going to get a 3rd chance to make the same mistake...it will cost him his job if he doesn't tailor his defense to the talent he has on the field.
Playing man was the right decision last night. After reading a suggestion from Bull to play man against the Steelers in the Matchup thread, I posted some stats how much more Trubiski struggles against man than he does against zone. Coverages need to be mixed up. Playing straight man coverage each week would lead to teams getting killed.
3 weeks in a row we play a team with an offensive line in the bottom 3rd of the league. Our pash rush should have dominated all 3 games but has been mediocre at best.
It's great if you can generate a consistent pass rush with only your 4 DL, but no successful team expects to do it on each and every play, week in and week out ... even a poor OL can be effective when they already know what's coming at them.
3 weeks in a row we play a team with an offensive line in the bottom 3rd of the league. Our pash rush should have dominated all 3 games but has been mediocre at best.
Agreed.
But we really missed Clowney, and we often only rushed 4 (IIRC). Garrett did his job pressure-wise, though Steelers had him doubled all night.
I guess if you ignore the fact that talent wins out you would be correct. A teams OL ranking is dependent on what they can and can not do. That is usually dependent on their physical skill set. I don't think anyone is actually talking about "each and every play" or even "week in and week out". I think they're talking about the overall tendency not to get pressure against very weak opposing OL's.
The reason the Browns aren't getting pressure rushing four is the interior of the DL is horrendous. We've all know this since last season.
I'd love to be able to just rush four. Who wouldn't? LOL. However, almost no one can and that has been the case for years. We are going to have to blitz more. Not all the time, but more. I know Woods doesn't like to blitz, but we have to get pressure on the qb. Why we didn't blitz Flacco is beyond me. The guy can throw the football if you give him time. He is not good when pressured. We blitzed a bit more last year than in the preceding year, but we haven't blitzed much this year. I might look it up later.
Playing man was the right decision last night. After reading a suggestion from Bull to play man against the Steelers in the Matchup thread, I posted some stats how much more Trubiski struggles against man than he does against zone. Coverages need to be mixed up. Playing straight man coverage each week would lead to teams getting killed.
This is what I posted the day after the Jets loss...
Quote
Problem with Ward's answer...he didn't cover the flat either...Ward was 20 yds downfield from the Jets TE who was running an out into the flat on Ward's side..AND WAS BEING COVERED BY BROWNS LB, #28, JOK who had that TE covered. Ward wasn't covering anyone..!
Common sense applied...who calls a defense that uses the Browns best cover corner to break off of a WR running a deep pattern so the Browns best corner can cover the opponents flat..? I'm not buying Ward's excuse.
Time to remove the excuses the defensive backs are attempting to use..time to establish "a rule" that takes priority over any defensive call made...when in doubt, no receiver is allowed to run by a Browns CB.
Deep coverage is the #1 responsibility for Browns CBs.
If there is any doubt, deep coverage is the #1 responsibility for Browns CBs.Last season, when the Browns worked to simplify pass coverage, they went to man to man coverage, which translated into our CBs covering deep routes man to man. That might be the best way to simplify pass coverage/blown coverages.
LIKE I SAID...COMMON SENSE DICTATES..you don't use your #1 cover corner (Ward) to COVER THE FLAT..!!..ESPECIALLY WHEN A WR is running a deep route to YOUR CB'S SIDELINE..!
AND, the Browns been through Joe Woods dream pass coverage screwups before and at least Stefanski remembers how we fixed the problem last year...CBs take the deep route on their side..!...PROBLEM SOLVED..!!!
I guess if you ignore the fact that talent wins out you would be correct. A teams OL ranking is dependent on what they can and can not do. That is usually dependent on their physical skill set. I don't think anyone is actually talking about "each and every play" or even "week in and week out". I think they're talking about the overall tendency not to get pressure against very weak opposing OL's.
The reason the Browns aren't getting pressure rushing four is the interior of the DL is horrendous. We've all know this since last season.
I dont believe that is trure that talent always wins out. (If that where true then MG would get a pressure on every rush) There is not much separation in talent at this level ... what separates them at this level are their intangibles, playing with good technique and understanding the blocking and the protection schemes. Personally I dont want OL who do not play to the whistle ... and naturally it helps to have an aggressive nature.
I then would have no idea why OL's get ranked on their abilities as a unit in regards to their strengths and weaknesses at accomplishing certain duties. Let's use your rational. If an OL as a unit is ranked badly against the pass rush, why would that be if they could stop the pass rush? And if you can't pressure the QB against an OL that is bad against the pass rush, what does that say about when you face teams that are better against the pass rush? I hope you aren't trying to indicate that we aren't extremely weak on the interior of our DL because I don't think the Browns fit the "not much separation in talent" mantra you seem to be indicating in that department.
I then would have no idea why OL's get ranked on their abilities as a unit in regards to their strengths and weaknesses at accomplishing certain duties. Let's use your rational. If an OL as a unit is ranked badly against the pass rush, why would that be if they could stop the pass rush? And if you can't pressure the QB against an OL that is bad against the pass rush, what does that say about when you face teams that are better against the pass rush? I hope you aren't trying to indicate that we aren't extremely weak on the interior of our DL because I don't think the Browns fit the "not much separation in talent" mantra you seem to be indicating in that department.
Good grief! I refer to my original statement ... because they know what is coming, becoming predictable, if you cant agree that vs a predictable defense front is easier then playing a pass rush that is unpredictable, then I cannot help you.
What can not be helped is that we've done much better in seasons past by doing what was "predictable" but not now. They knew what was coming then and couldn't stop it. They know what's coming now and can stop it. I have no idea what part of that is confusing you. It's because we are much weaker on the interior of that DL. People have been explaining this over and over again since before this season started and it seems some didn't get the memo.
What can not be helped is that we've done much better in seasons past by doing what was "predictable" but not now. They knew what was coming then and couldn't stop it. They know what's coming now and can stop it. I have no idea what part of that is confusing you. It's because we are much weaker on the interior of that DL. People have been explaining this over and over again since before this season started and it seems some didn't get the memo.
So that only makes it more plausible to not just rush only 4 DL. You're making my argument for me.
The Browns front office/GM are faced with BIG PROBLEM...Woods talked the front office into believing that all he needed was THE RIGHT PERSONNEL to play his defensive schemes.
For two years, the Browns GM/front office set out to tailor their free agent plan and their draft plan to provide Joe Woods with all the tools he said he needed to make HIS DEFENSIVE SCHEMES WORK.
Now the Browns find out that Joe Woods defensive schemes don't work and now the Browns are saddled with undersized LBs who have trouble defending the LOS and who are really nothing more than TWEENERS who are not fast enough or quick enough to cover intermediate pass routes and LBs who lack the strength and bulk to stop the run at the LOS.
Now Woods wants everyone to believe he needs super star DTs to help stop the run to make up for his undersized LBs who can't stop the run.
ENOUGH..!!..the Browns front office/GM have done more than enough to give Joe Woods all the talent he says he needs to make his PIE IN THE SKY DEFENSES WORK..!
The bottom line is, Woods likes to do a lot talking about his dream defenses but he can't show show any evidence that his defensive dreams have produced the results he claims.
The Browns can't afford to give up any more wins..!
Hey mac, we beat the Steelers last night. You haven't made one positive post about the win. Are you grumpy because we won?
Btw---you may want to try researching the 4-2-5 before you go off. While that defense does utilize faster, more agile players who are understandably lighter....the DTs are almost always larger guys who are there to plug up the middle and stop the inside runs. I like our FO, but I am perplexed why they have not brought in a block-eating, run stuffing DT or two yet.
vers...so how far does the Browns front office/GM keep playing this game where Joe Woods doesn't the talent to play the defensive scheme THAT WOODS DREAMS ABOUT...?
Tell us how the Joe Woods 4-2-5 performs under realistic conditions so far in 2020 and IN THE AFC NORTH...
The truth is, the Browns offense has had to carry Joe Woods defense...JUST THE OPPOSITE OF WHAT MOST PREDICTED in a season when their STAR QB GOT SUSPENDED FOR SEXUAL MISCONDUCT...!
Safety John Johnson III says Browns new defensive huddle format helped secure win vs. Steelers
John Dillon September 23, 2022 6:45 pm ET
A defensive meltdown in Week 3 was enough to have the Cleveland Browns’ coaching staff re-evaluate their gameday strategies ahead of their matchup against the Pittsburgh Steelers last night. Communication was becoming an issue, and the team was ready to try anything that might help them avoid another collapse.
As it would turn out a simple adjustment to how play calls are sent in from defensive coordinator Joe Woods to the unit on the field was all they needed to get on the same page. Starting safety John Johnson III told reporters after the game about the new approach and was emphatic in his assertion that it helped with a very specific matchup choice.
“Usually, it is like seven or eight guys, but all 11 were in the huddle,” He explained. “It was a little different because (CB) Denzel (Ward) was traveling with No. 18 (Steelers WR Diontae Johnson) so everyone definitely had to stay in the middle, and it helped out with the play.”
With everybody working in concert, the Browns’ defense was able to limit Pittsburgh to just 17 points, and they even managed to score a touchdown on the final play of the game. Johnson continued his comments by saying he was hopeful the change would stick around, and seemed to imply that the results of the subtle change speak for themselves.
“I think it has to [help],” Johnson said. “I think you have to get the call and communicate. It was sending and receiving. It was a lot better than last week so I think we have to [stick with it.].”
Cleveland will need to build on this win if they want their success to continue through the rest of their rigorous schedule. As they continue to improve, the Browns will continue making waves on both sides of the ball.
Geez. You should never have communication issues at the professional level. Definitely not to the point that it requires an article. Communication should be basic stuff.
John Johnson likes to talk to the media and it seems that he usually has favorable comments about his boss, Joe Woods.
IMO, making a move to assign Ward one responsibility...cover the Steelers #18 man to man did more to simplify defensive pass coverage more than anything. It wasn't like Ward had a great game covering Steelers #18, Diontae Johnson, who was targeted 11 times and caught 8 of those passes for 84 yds.
...BUT, THE HUGE PLUS WAS...that the Steelers #18 was not allowed to beat the Browns with a cheap "blown coverage"...and that was huge plus for the Browns defense and the performance of defensive backfield.
Simplifying the Browns pass coverage and allowing CBs like Ward to do what they do...(cover one on one)...and that goes along way toward repairing what's wrong with Woods pass coverage schemes. It's virtually the same fix the Browns used last season to overcome the defensive pass coverage issues in 2021.
maybe im off base, but IMO i think JJ3 has been a major reason as to why woods has lasted this long. he has a crap ton of responsibilities, but you'd think him having to assist the coaching staff in getting the right calls onto the field wouldn't be one of them.
and imma keep harping this point: woods DB's coach, this is literally what he specializes in. why is the secondary the worst coached unit on the defense?
maybe im off base, but IMO i think JJ3 has been a major reason as to why woods has lasted this long. he has a crap ton of responsibilities, but you'd think him having to assist the coaching staff in getting the right calls onto the field wouldn't be one of them.
and imma keep harping this point: woods DB's coach, this is literally what he specializes in. why is the secondary the worst coached unit on the defense?
DBs are what he specialized (past tense) in. He's the DC now. Maybe he stepped in more after the first couple weeks, after delegating as a coordinator/HC generally does earlier.
I also think Ward's missed time is a factor. He didn't practice a ton. He spent most of training camp on the PUP list. I don't think Denzel played in the preseason, either. Hopefully the rust is finally knocked off.
maybe im off base, but IMO i think JJ3 has been a major reason as to why woods has lasted this long. he has a crap ton of responsibilities, but you'd think him having to assist the coaching staff in getting the right calls onto the field wouldn't be one of them.
and imma keep harping this point: woods DB's coach, this is literally what he specializes in. why is the secondary the worst coached unit on the defense?
swish...it is rather obvious what JJ3 is up to when you look at the video of his performance against the Steelers.
Najee Harris embarrassed both of our Safeties on one play...
maybe im off base, but IMO i think JJ3 has been a major reason as to why woods has lasted this long. he has a crap ton of responsibilities, but you'd think him having to assist the coaching staff in getting the right calls onto the field wouldn't be one of them.
and imma keep harping this point: woods DB's coach, this is literally what he specializes in. why is the secondary the worst coached unit on the defense?
swish...it is rather obvious what JJ3 is up to when you look at the video of his performance against the Steelers.
Najee Harris embarrassed both of our Safeties on one play...
Harris also didn't crack 60 yards rushing and lost the game. dude is a good RB so of course he's gonna get a highlight or two. but he and the steelers LOST.
how many safeties have been on the wrong end of a nick chubb highlight? JJ3 was in position, but it happens.
the concern is the communication issues on the backend, because that's leading toward busted coverages for huge plays in the passing game, which has already costed us a W and showed up again last night.
The Guardians are going to win a Division with a $57 m payroll against teams that have $150 to $200 m payroll and they can not draw fans.
We are starting a back-up quarterback playing with new receivers. We have a 2-1 record. And lost a game that was 99.9% in the bag.
Yet many want to criticise the coaches, players, and seem to bath in negativity.
What is the deal?
I guess it's me. When we could not win a game and playing 500 ball looked like a fantasy. I watched and hoped for one win.
I watch the games not looking for everything to go bad. Sure I bleed when it does. But I am looking for the win. Some way to pull it off.
I know when we are not the best team. I still believe we can win that game. Because the best team does not always win. I also know that.
The Braves last year won 88 games. They won the World Series beating every team who had a better record.
I got news. The Browns could go to the playoffs. And until they are mathematically eliminated. I will believe it is possible.
I really do not understand those who always look at the we are going suck side of things. I don't get it.
Maybe it protection against disappointment? I don't know. I can not go into watching a game thinking "well here we go again we are going to get beat today."
Eotab is fighting for his life. And yet he posts on this Board with hope for his team. Sure he bitches but when he sees good. He is all over it.
It seems like Board members post with "I want to win an argument attitude." And constantly lay in wait for each other. Snide remarks permeate into threads uncalled for. I find myself doing it. When really I come here to talk football about my home team. The team I have been rooting for since 1960.
I love X's and O's and play breakdowns. I love seeing our good players do good things on the field. Sure I get pissed. Because I want the team to win every game. But no matter what I back the team.
Bone I enjoy reading your posts. I admit I'm not one of the most positive people on this board. I'd like to think of myself as more of a realist. I do go into every game hoping for the best but I prepare myself for disappointment. Watching what happened in that Jets game was horrible. Stuff like that just doesn't happen but it does to usand who was the last team to do it 21 years and 2229 times ago; us. That's why most of us have the attitude we do.
A little story that you may enjoy. Once when I was like 19. I was working in a factory(for school money). I heard about a 175 pound limit industrial football league. So I helped organize a team to play in that league.
The first game I was playing quarterback. A bunch of lightweight guys like me were playing against grown ass men who had been in the league.
On the first play the center got hit so hard it cause a fumble. I went to get the ball a got my hand stepped on. Broke two fingers on my left hand.
Every cell in my body was telling me to get off that field before I got killed. All I could think of was I wanted to score at least one touchdown. We got beat 48-0.
I have never given in to failure. I can not. I just can not.
When the Browns lost on the "Fumble." It crushed me. I mean I went dark for weeks. I swore I would never let a sport affect me like that again.
That was a long time ago. I am still here hoping. I have seen way worse than 2022 Browns.
No doubt sticking with the initial huddle call is going to be the safest. You are at least going to have people in position to make a play, even if yardage is gained.
It is easy for things to go wrong if you are trying to check in to a different coverage to counter what the O might be doing when they start changing formations. You might want to be able to do that, but if your guys seem to fail to be able to do that, don't do it. You can't just give up free touchdowns.
Don't Fire Joe Woods. Who would be the replacement? Callie Bronson? Chuck-ee Jon Gruden? or Keep Joe Woods?
Acting like they are 0-3, because they should be 0-3 by how they are playing. (blown lead, needing an onside kick recovery twice, needing a 58 yard FG), Either way, starting a new theory Throw the records out every 3rd game, ... the Browns are starting a new season Facing Atlanta in the opener: TRAP GAME then the Chargers then the Patriots 0-0 and now the injuries are happening.
Don't fire Joe Woods. Really? Before the first game of a new 3 game stretch? (living in an alternate reality since I982)
The defense was either completely over-complicated or the players didn't know what they were supposed to be doing in each of the checks. That's pretty sad when it's Year 3 of this defense for the coach AND the vast majority of the players, particularly the defensive backfield.
They should all know this stuff by now. Professionals would.
Sports is an emotional roller coaster ride for a lot of people. They don't look at things with perspective. And that works both ways. The Browns have been playing bottom feeder teams. So many people keep that in mind. It's part of their evaluation. Many will either be on an emotional high or a downward spiral based on a single game. It's the nature of the beast. Some will take something totally negative and dig out some positive no matter what.
I agree with you to the extent that calling for Woods or Stefanski to be fired over a couple of games at the beginning of the season is preposterous. But at the same time I get it. I expect it. We are older people and over the course of our life I think we've come to the point we look at things more on a long term basis. We aren't as prone to allowing our emotions on a single game or two cause us to walk off the ledge.
We all saw the D start out slow last season but become a very strong unit. If the Steelers game is any indication we could see a total repeat of that. And the O is playing beyond my wildest dreams. The schedule is going to be getting a lot tougher so we'll have to wait and see how the Browns rise of fall to that challenge. But much like yourself, I have no idea why people would be all doom and gloom right now.
I have one caveat however. The team still has some weaknesses. The interior of the DL is very questionable. Outside of Cooper and Njoku, do we have any real pass catching threats? I think outside of those two it's very questionable. So there are some legitimate questions that I think fans have that they aren't off base in addressing. If nobody addressed the issues the Browns do have, it would be nothing more than singing Kumbatya and a giant sausage fest.
Players will get beat. It is part of the game on both sides of the ball.
Blown coverages happen on occasion. They should be a rarity because it should be a player mistake.
But when a entire secondary is singing communication error. That is wrong. That should be cleaned up in pre-season.
12 men on the field in special teams. That should never happen. I have never seen a team that did not have a guy counting heads.
These are things that must be cleaned up.
I believe in both schemes. I also believe in continuity. Coaches should have a long leash. If they learn and correct issues and mistakes are not repeated.
A staff should grow and learn together. However, it should become clear when changes are required.
I hope are coaches do not deserve to be fired and they just get better at their jobs.
Communication and discipline (counting players) are basics and should be part of everyday life starting in mini camps. They are not things that just get added in later after you've worked on other things, they are what you begin with. They're literally foundational. They are things that just should simply already exist, especially at this level and with as many years as they've been together. Sadly, these are not new issues. If memory serves, we had several 12-men penalties last year, and the year before. They're nearly common; they're definitely not uncommon.
The defense was either completely over-complicated or the players didn't know what they were supposed to be doing in each of the checks. That's pretty sad when it's Year 3 of this defense for the coach AND the vast majority of the players, particularly the defensive backfield.
It appears that it took a players only meeting to initiate a change.
With or without Woods as our DC our Defense will have the same communication problems they have now. Also we just don't have the talent. Diam taught me that a long time ago. In the NFL you need TALENT!!! Its a shame we don't have 3 years of 1st round picks in the draft to get that talent. What did we get a 3rd rounder and a 7th rounder to play DE for us as backups. So there we were without Clowney and Garrett sacrificing himself to play hurt so his game was not there do you really expect our late round rookie players to carry the load...lol
Delpit has amazing talent but he doesn't seem to be that guy to learn and play a different defense then he did in College. Quite frankly we got to stop drafting kids from LSU. There is a reason they got all that talent and are not in the hunt for a college championship. Alabama players yes, Ohio State pllayers yes...but stop drafting LSU players sure they are a steal for their talent but in reality they suck and are available for a reason!
Watching the Browns defense and focusing on the physical nature of the Browns play vs the other teams in our division...I have concerns about the Browns D holding up PHYSICALLY, as the season progresses..!
Said another way, IMO, the Browns defense is not built to dominate physically and that might become more of a factor as the season progresses.
Injuries, poor execution, extended plays because players fail to make an expected play. I hope our defensive execution concerning basics such as tackling, improves as the season progresses...but I am concerned.
Playing man was the right decision last night. After reading a suggestion from Bull to play man against the Steelers in the Matchup thread, I posted some stats how much more Trubiski struggles against man than he does against zone. Coverages need to be mixed up. Playing straight man coverage each week would lead to teams getting killed.
I might be off in my assessment, but this has been a historical knock that I have on Woods. I feel like he force-fits things into zones too often without much variance. I'm not sure about Newsome, but I always thought that Ward and Greedy's biggest strengths were their man-coverage abilities. I was glad to see him call more of a man-scheme against the Steelers. It seems to have obviously worked better with far less breakdowns.
Still gotta fix that pass-rush, though. Not sure what to do. I don't feel like he has been helping out Garrett much this year, though. I know it's been harder for him with Clowney out, but I hate when we put Garrett in the interior. It also seems pretty obvious that teams are putting 2-3 guys on Garrett on most passing downs. Would be nice to have an occasionally timed blitz (hell, blitz Delpit because his coverage stinks) so that the OL can't consistently zero in on Garrett from the snap onset.
Bro, I think that a lot of fans have a false understanding of coverages in the NFL, just like they do w/the OL/QB relationship when it comes to sacks. Check out this article on Coverages. Note that the team w/the highest percentage of Cover 1 [Man] was still less than 50%. The article is from 2017 and I believe the use of zone has only increased since then.
Also, I think that moving Myles around is a good idea. I thought we kept him at RDE way too much last week. Moving him around changes blocking schemes and it frees up other guys.
Anyway, here is the article. I would love to further the conversation if you--or anyone who likes to talk football rather than board personalities] wants to discuss it.
One last thing. It's better to click on the link so you can see the charts.
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Taking a closer look: Examining the NFL's coverage scheme tendencies
SEATTLE, WA - DECEMBER 15: Cornerback Richard Sherman #25 of the Seattle Seahawks almost intercepts a pass by the Los Angeles Rams at CenturyLink Field on December 15, 2016 in Seattle, Washington. (Photo by Otto Greule Jr/Getty Images)
By Sam Monson Jul 20, 2017 As always in the NFL, there are many different ways to climb a tree, and how teams defend the pass can vary wildly from scheme to scheme. We know that very broadly some teams run predominantly man coverage while others favor more zone, but diving even deeper into those broad buckets can show us some interesting trends about how each team plays defense.
ACROSS THE NFL The league is overall a zone-heavy league. All 32 teams combined to run zone coverage on 59.0 percent of snaps with just 34.9 percent man coverage (the remaining 6.1 percent falling into a miscellaneous category including prevent, red zone, and goal line defenses which can contain elements of both and don’t sit accurately in a typical coverage shell).
The most commonly used coverage shell in 2016 was Cover-1, with teams running that version of man coverage or ‘man-free’ on 28.5 percent of snaps last season. Only one other coverage shell was over the 25 percent barrier, and only two other coverages were used on more than ten percent of coverage snaps.
The least used of the broad bucket coverages was, rather predictably, Cover-0. While man coverage is certainly heavily used, teams rarely do so without a safety net of that deep-lying free safety, and attacked with no plan-B on just 2.3 percent of coverage snaps, which still means that teams ran this hyper-aggressive, hyper-risky coverage 481 times last season combined.
No team in 2016 ran man coverage on more than 50.0 percent of their snaps, but a few came close. The Tennessee Titans ran more man coverage than anybody else – on 49.6 percent of their snaps, with the Kansas City Chiefs not far behind on 48.9 percent. The Chiefs were wildly more successful with that coverage given a far superior cast of coverage defenders tasked with executing it, and the Titans asking so much of such a limited group of defensive backs was one of the main reasons for some of their struggles against the pass last season.
Those two teams also represent the only two teams in the league that ran more man coverage than zone coverage once the various miscellaneous coverages are taken out of the equation. The Chiefs actually ran man coverage 6.5 percent more than they ran zone overall.
The New York Giants were the league’s most aggressive team in terms of running man coverage without a safety net, deploying Cover-0 on 5.4 percent of their coverage snaps, or 38 times over the course of the year. Only three teams (the Broncos at 32 and Saints at 34) ran Cover-0 more than 30 times last year and four sides ran it just once each.
While no team ran more than 50.0 percent of their snaps in man coverage, many teams were far more zone-happy than that. The Carolina Panthers led the way, with almost eighty percent (79.9) of their snaps coming in zone coverage of some variety or other. They ran just 12.3 percent of their snaps in man coverage, and lined up in Cover-3 alone 237 times over the course of the year.
The Pittsburgh Steelers (75.2) and Cincinnati Bengals (72.2) were the only other two teams to play more than 70.0 percent of their snaps in zone coverage, while even the man-coverage champion Titans still ran zone coverage 45.7 percent of the time.
The staple man coverage shell, Cover-1 effectively puts every coverage defender on an island except for the deep-lying free safety, who is there as a safety net to the whole operation should somebody blow their assignment or get badly beat. Nobody used Cover-1 more than the Houston Texans, who ran it on 43.4 percent of their coverage snaps, but the Texans were significantly less likely to remove that free safety and try to generate pressure on top of the man coverage, and virtually never ran man coverage with two high safeties, so ran less man coverage overall than some other teams. The Arizona Cardinals (42.2) and Kansas City (40.6) were the other two teams to run Cover-1 on more than 40 percent of their snaps.
What was once the league’s biggest trend in coverage, the staple of Super Bowl sides like the 2002 Tampa Bay Buccaneers, was used on just 12.4 percent of snaps league wide last season. The Steelers led the league in time spent in Cover-2, with 26.7 percent of their snaps, but only they and the Saints (25.2) deployed that coverage on more than a quarter of their snaps. The Chiefs ran Cover-2 on just 2.3 percent of their snaps, and five NFL teams deployed this coverage shell on less than three percent of their coverage snaps.
It won’t surprise anybody to see that the Seattle Seahawks led the league in snaps in a Cover-3 defense, at least from a percentage standpoint. Seattle ran Cover-3 on 54.0 percent of their snaps, with members of that coaching tree taking the system to Atlanta (51.5) and Jacksonville (46.4) making up the rest of the top three. The Falcons actually ran 45 more snaps overall in Cover-3 than the Seahawks, but that represents a lower percentage of their total snaps on defense last year. Cover-3 was the second-most common coverage deployed league-wide last season.
Cover-4 or ‘quarters’ coverage has become much more common over the years, with NFL teams deploying it on 9.1 percent of their snaps as a group in 2016, but it actually lagged behind Cover-6, which was used on 9.6 percent of the time. Both of these coverages feature two deep safeties, but Cover-6 splits the field in half and shows a Cover-2 look to one side of the field and Cover-4 to the other. Both coverages use plenty of matchup principles to combat modern NFL route concepts and plays. While a team like the Seahawks barely used these coverages (1.9 percent combined), the Carolina Panthers were running one or other of them on a third of their defensive snaps, and the Oakland Raiders even more at 34.4 percent.
11 NFL teams used one or other of these coverages on more than a quarter of their defensive snaps in 2016.
Other Notes:
The Bucs were extremely quick to jump to bespoke red zone coverages, running some variety of non-standard red zone coverage shell on 7.4 percent of their overall snaps. The Texans ran more goal line defense than anybody, with six snaps of goal line coverages, one more than Detroit. The Dallas Cowboys ran prevent defense 15 times in 2015, four more than any other team, while eight sides only deployed a true prevent once all season. While the Seahawks are seen as strictly a Cover-3 defense, they ran man coverage 36.5 percent of the time, and had plenty of snaps in which Richard Sherman saw man assignments mixed into overall zone coverage shells. No team faced more pass plays than the Falcons during the regular season, with 752 snaps against the pass. Buffalo at 611 faced the fewest.
Wow, that article is pretty eye-opening. Thanks for sharing. I wonder what our stats would be by comparison. I know with the shift to the 4-2-5 that a lot of teams are using would seemingly increase the usage of zone coverage, correct? Especially the usage of Cover-3? I'd like to revisit those broken plays we had and see what kind of coverage we were in.
I also don't mind moving Myles around on the line if it's RDE or LDE. I just really don't like it when he's at 3-tech. I feel like he just gets immediately swallowed up. I also could be wrong, but whoever the DE he has next to him in those situations doesn't seem to command the respect to take more than one blocker. I also imagine the NT in those situations probably doesn't have much of a pass rush skillset. Maybe it's a personnel issue. Have we run any blitz scenarios where Myles is at 3T and is assigned the A gap, DE goes around and we send a delayed blitz to the B gap? That would either leave a free blitzer or Myles 1-1 with the center. That I could be on board with, but I'm also not a qualified DC, lol.
Concerning the use of Myles...one big factor that the Browns FO has failed to do is pairing Myles with a "stud DT". Myles is getting chipped and doubled as a result, meaning Myles is on his own to beat whatever the offensive blocking scheme is being used to defeat Myles pass rush.
Also, I have not seen a consistent blitz package from Woods that helps Myles secure 'one on one blocking'...
I've wondered how Myles might do if Woods utilized Myles much like the Steelers use Watt...as a LBer in a 3-4, allowing Watt more liberty to use different blitzing schemes to succeed at sacking/pressuring the QB.
Wow, that article is pretty eye-opening. Thanks for sharing. I wonder what our stats would be by comparison. I know with the shift to the 4-2-5 that a lot of teams are using would seemingly increase the usage of zone coverage, correct? Especially the usage of Cover-3? I'd like to revisit those broken plays we had and see what kind of coverage we were in.
I am going to post another article that might help. I really don't know which coverage is used the most. I see a lot of Cover 2, Cover 4, Quarters, which is a variant of Cover 4, Cover 3, etc. I see teams play Cover 6.....which is Cover 4 on one side of the field and Cover 2 on the other side of the field. Pretty cool, huh?
Here is the real takeaway..........teams use a variety of coverages. To stick to one or two looks would be suicide because offensive coaches and players spend a ton of time studying film to find tendencies. Being predictable will lead to disaster. The opponent, field position, score, etc all factor into which coverage the DC calls. Obviously, certain defenses favor some coverages more than others. The 4-2-5 tends to favor Quarters and Cover 3. But, I've seen us in all kinds of coverages. Anyway, here is the article. Keep the conversation going if you like. I love this sort of stuff. Oh, and following the link is a good idea again. There are a couple of graphs/charts available that provide a nice visual.
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BREAKDOWNS Coverages Are Constantly Evolving In the Modern Era
Jared Hammond
January 1, 2022 3 min read
NFL Coverages Are Constantly Evolving In the Modern Era
As NFL offenses started to evolve in the early 2010s with the increased use of three, four, and five wide sets, offenses shifted from a focus on the running game to the passing game. Offenses have quickly started implementing more spread formations and concepts into their playbooks in an effort to continue to adapt and find new ways to beat defenses. The popularity of base defense (3-4/4-3) has continuously become less and less popular, while the nickel defensive package has started to dominate the NFL. The nickel package replaces one linebacker for an extra player in the secondary.
Since 2014 (when PFF started recording data), nickel defense usage has continued to rise in nearly every season. The 2014 season was the only one during this span that the nickel package hasn’t been used for at least 50% of all defensive snaps in a season. Through Week 15 of this season, teams have used the nickel package a record high 60.9% of all defensive snaps. This trend is the same in college as well. This regular season, nickel was used on 63.9% of defensive snaps.
As the NFL continues to be more pass-oriented, defenses and coverages continue to adjust for what offenses are doing. In turn, it seems as though defenses that were more popular prior to the surge of pass-heavy schemes can be used to create confusion.
“The 90s consisted primarily of cover 2 and zone defenses, operating out of a base 3-4, which was made popular due to Lawrence Taylor,” Former NFL Head Coach Chris Palmer says.
As nickel was becoming more popular in the early 2000s, not all teams practiced much against it.
“It threw the players off, the first time we saw it (nickel) against our ace personnel,” Coach Palmer says. “Nickel defense has become more prominent on first down because coaches are always looking for matchups… 3 wide sets, 4 wide sets, throwing more has caused all offenses to look for matchup advantages when they put additional receivers on the field.”
Some defensive coaches are using the trend towards the nickel package to their advantage. With players seeing nickel more often throughout college and seeing less base defense, some teams use this to their advantage.
“(Broncos Head Coach) Vic Fangio doesn’t often match personnel pre-snap, which can confuse quarterbacks. He’ll stick to a base defense look instead of shifting his defense, which is not something many offenses practice against,” Coach Palmer notes.
Utilizing base defense is one way defensive coordinators are able to create confusion, as younger QBs who haven’t seen much base defensive sets in their limited NFL experience.
In addition to the rise in the use of the nickel package, there has been a fluctuation in coverage type used by season since 2014. One of the most prominent differences was from 2015 to 2016 is the use of cover 3.
League-wide, cover 3 usage dropped from 34.8% of all defensive coverage snaps to 25.8%. The top three teams who used cover 3 in 2015 — Seattle (52.3%), Atlanta (51.4%), and Pittsburgh (42.3%), all had success defensively in nearly all statistical categories. Despite the success, these three teams dramatically dropped the amount of cover 3 they played the following season in 2016 — Seattle (28.7%), Atlanta (32.2%), and Pittsburgh (22.5%).
Seattle’s Legion of Boom increased the popularity of cover 3 during their early years of success from 2012-2015, but once injuries started to rot the core of their secondary, the use of cover 3 dramatically shifted in both 2016 and 2017 until it was popularized again in 2018 by the Los Angeles Chargers — who combined cover 3 with heavy dime defense usage (60.6% of defensive snaps, 22.8% higher than the next team).
As offenses continue to evolve and find trends that work, defenses will continue to adjust accordingly. This season, NFL defenses are on pace to have the lowest percentage of cover 1 played, 24.79%, since PFF started recording coverage snaps in 2014. That is nearly a 10% drop since 2019. Cover 1 will continue to drop in usage as the use of nickel packages continues to increase.
I love this. This also reminds me of the defense the Patriots used against the Chiefs in 2020 that had Mahomes baffled. I think it was a Cover 2 variation that was called a Cover 5. Pretty innovative.
Cover 5 is a good defense to run at the end of games when you are trying to protect a lead. It's also good against the deep passing game, so your example makes sense to me. It has its weaknesses, but they all do.
I don't think I mentioned this before and I apologize if I did. One of the best things defenses do is give a qb one look w/their coverage pre-snap and then change it post-snap. Over the years, you have probably noticed me talking about both pre-snap and post-snap reads by qbs. Pre-snap reads can really be improved by film study. Again, tendencies are a huge factor. However, post-snap reads are about processing speed. It's an entirely different animal and not many are really good at it.
I don't know. After the D had three straight 3-and-outs and our offense forgot how to run the ball and our ineffectiveness in both halfs when we had the ball inside the 5, I out just as much blame on the O.
Joe Wood didn't play a down. He, personally, didn't blow coverages- maybe we need to dumb down the D. When you start THREE backups on your D line it doesn't lead to wins normally. IF our O had score the normal number of points- we win. IF HC would take 3 when it's nearly automatic, maybe we're in overtime......2-2 is reality AND now comes the real tests.....GO Browns!!!
We talk a lot and often about "control the things you can" but this losing the same way repeatedly and regularly, seems like things need addressed. If not, you must want more of the same. We lost this game several times and on both sides of the ball. What do you feel can be controlled?
Joe Wood didn't play a down. He, personally, didn't blow coverages- maybe we need to dumb down the D. When you start THREE backups on your D line it doesn't lead to wins normally. IF our O had score the normal number of points- we win. IF HC would take 3 when it's nearly automatic, maybe we're in overtime......2-2 is reality AND now comes the real tests.....GO Browns!!!
Really our Secondary is not even in the area code in the 4th Quarter, we have given up 50 of 95 Points in the 4th Quarter That is bad coaching PERIOD!!! t
Joe Wood didn't play a down. He, personally, didn't blow coverages- maybe we need to dumb down the D. When you start THREE backups on your D line it doesn't lead to wins normally. IF our O had score the normal number of points- we win. IF HC would take 3 when it's nearly automatic, maybe we're in overtime......2-2 is reality AND now comes the real tests.....GO Browns!!!
Problem is, this isn't a 1 game issue. It's repeated, way too often. Even WITH the starters.
The offence looked like a bucket of seal feces in the second half. Our D played well today against a good offence. Except for the blown coverage on their final drive. That one play might have been the decider, the TSN Turning Point. Still in first place!
Joe Wood didn't play a down. He, personally, didn't blow coverages- maybe we need to dumb down the D. When you start THREE backups on your D line it doesn't lead to wins normally. IF our O had score the normal number of points- we win. IF HC would take 3 when it's nearly automatic, maybe we're in overtime......2-2 is reality AND now comes the real tests.....GO Browns!!!
Problem is, this isn't a 1 game issue. It's repeated, way too often. Even WITH the starters.
Yep. These same issues have been plaguing Woods' defense since he's been here.
who on our staff can take over for Woods? even if we fire Woods now, it's unheard of to bring in an outsider mid-season to install a new scheme, so whoever is on our staff would need to step up. My instinct tells me woods doesn't last past our Bye, which seems like an eternity from now
who on our staff can take over for Woods? even if we fire Woods now, it's unheard of to bring in an outsider mid-season to install a new scheme, so whoever is on our staff would need to step up. My instinct tells me woods doesn't last past our Bye, which seems like an eternity from now
who on our staff can take over for Woods? even if we fire Woods now, it's unheard of to bring in an outsider mid-season to install a new scheme, so whoever is on our staff would need to step up. My instinct tells me woods doesn't last past our Bye, which seems like an eternity from now
IMO, Stefanski and Berry wouldn’t fire him during the season. I personally think he’s awful and has shown enough after 2.5 years for us to know that he’s awful. But he’s gonna be here for the season.
Not to defend Woods here, but yesterday's game wasn't a Joe Woods problem.
When you have guys like Tommy Togiai starting, or even on the team for that matter, you aren't going to win the LOS. We schemed a lot of different formations. The only one I may have missed was the UFO defense we employed several years back. We should know from those days that scheme doesn't cover for bad players.
If anybody needs to stand up for what we saw yesterday it is Andrew Berry. He is the guy who is responsible for what Woods had to work with in yesterday's game. Berry and our scouts don't do a good job when it comes to scouting and selecting wide receivers and defensive line talent. Coaching "up" only goes so far. Baseline bad players are still going to be bad players.
Woods can be held to the fire for other things, but he can't be held accountable for trying to get by with inferior players. Actually, I think we held the Falcons to their lowest point this year, or at least their average point output.
Yesterday was all about the O and decisions made on that side of the ball.
I would not fire Woods during the season. Making emotional decisions are not intelligent. He might be in trouble at the end of the year. Fangio is out there [I think] and he has had a lot of success as a DC.
The D played okay yesterday. They looked great at times and terrible at times. They were inconsistent. We were down 4 starters. That has to count for something. I kinda agree w/peen that there is a lack of talent at certain positions. DT for sure and I am not high on our LBers. On the other hand, Woods hasn't done enough to make me say he's the guy. It's just not a good idea to fire him at this point.
I'm actually more concerned about our Special Teams coach.
Guys like Rochell, Togaiai, Wright, etc are not NFL quality players, at least from a starting standpoint.
Myles’ accident made our chances to win much worse, but it was still a winnable game obviously.
throwing away points, defensive breakdowns, AWFUL special teams play, etc. Bad coaching.
It was a total team failure
I totally agree with you.the Browns had the worst starting D line Of any team yesterday. That's not Woods fault. Togaiai was very Average at OSU. He wasn't going to turn into Warren Sapp At this level. Their was high expectations for this defense in 2022 Some even claimed it was a near caliber championship Defense which is so far off reality
The Browns defense was a bit over rated coming into This year. In 2021 it faced a handful of QBs that were either Backups or on the doorstep of retirement That combination kinda makes the final stats misleading
Flacco moved the ball on this defense when it mattered The Falcons ran the ball with ease. It took a FG to beat a offense that's the worst in the league Led by I'm Feeling Dangerous Baker Mayfield. Carolinas Best offensive output came vs this defense .that says alot.
Firing Woods accomplishes nothing at this point. Cause the next guy up won't change the schemes he Implemented. Maybe the players on defense shouldn't have been reading Their hype in the preseason
My (not so) hot take is that Joe Woods will not be coaching our defense next season.
It's not all his fault, because he can't control who he has avaliable, but his game plans have been head scratchers.
You are one of the guys whose football knowledge I respect, so please take this the right way. What exactly did you not like about our defensive game plan yesterday?
My (not so) hot take is that Joe Woods will not be coaching our defense next season.
It's not all his fault, because he can't control who he has avaliable, but his game plans have been head scratchers.
You are one of the guys whose football knowledge I respect, so please take this the right way. What exactly did you not like about our defensive game plan yesterday?
I think that we where out coached in that we (as per usual) seemed to have the wrong plan to start the game o defense. Woods had us in poor defensive calls to counter their initial attack. It was almost as if they were surprised at their offensive strategy. Then they switched their strategy, staying one step ahead of Woods. The lack of any adjustments after their offense made their adjustments was painfully obvious.
The lack of any adjustments after their offense made their adjustments was painfully obvious.
I believe (one of) the instances that you are referring to, is the late TD drive they had wherein all plays were runs, not one pass thrown. They gashed us so bad and we had no answer....
Some coaches are good enough to teach a scheme or system to their players and be successful in the NFL. Some coaches are capable of taking raw player talent and develop them into better players...and some coaches can do both, teach a scheme or system and improve their raw talent.
But some coaches are not capable of doing either...they rely on getting the best talent their team management can buy on the free agent market or draft and hope those players can perform the scheme well enough to make the coaches scheme look good.
Woods started out like this last year too. First six games or so, we couldn't trust them to be solid. By the end of the year, they were considered top 5. So what do you do? I don't like his D. But he's not going anywhere if we land in the top 10 at the end of this season. I do think he's part of the problem currently, but it is what it is.
I think fans put way too much emphasis on coaching. There is a huge disparity among coaches at lower levels like high school and even college. However, most NFL coaches are pretty good. They certainly know what they are doing in regards to Xs and Os. It's annoying listening to so many media members trash coaches and so many fans pretending they know more about coaching than the actual coaches. There are things to question, but it's so freaking overblown.
Does anyone else think the Browns are a poor tacking team? Several times yesterday, Mariota avoided bog losses by escaping pretty certain TFL situations, Also on the play that Denzel was called for a face mask penalty, John Johnson missed a clear shot at the guy forcing Ward to take him down and he ended up grabbling the mask. If Johnson does his job, that is about 20 less yards on that play. It may not have made a difference, but man it is tough to watch. BTW, not excusing DW facemask, just pointing out it should not have happened.
Poor tackling is something that has been ongoing for years in college and the pros. It's not just our team. It's an epidemic. I see guys posting about us not practicing tackling, but has anyone actually read the CBA? No one tackles full go in practices. Those drills are long gone. Also, guys today go for big hits rather than practicing sound fundamental techniques. One other thing are the rule changes. You can't go high or risk a targeting call. Go low and you will get called for a personal foul many times.
I do not think this issue is specific to our team. Wait.......allow me to amend that. This issues is definitely not specific to our team.
I think fans put way too much emphasis on coaching. There is a huge disparity among coaches at lower levels like high school and even college. However, most NFL coaches are pretty good. They certainly know what they are doing in regards to Xs and Os. It's annoying listening to so many media members trash coaches and so many fans pretending they know more about coaching than the actual coaches. There are things to question, but it's so freaking overblown.
Fans pointing at coaches as the reason for failure to win is as old as the game of football itself and that's not likely to change.
IMO, there are few coaches who are capable of being good at all facets of coaching. It takes time to be good at the Xs and Os as well as developing talent by transforming raw talent into players who capable excelling at their position.
Some coaches are good enough to teach a scheme or system to their players and be successful in the NFL. Some coaches are capable of taking raw player talent and develop them into better players...and some coaches can do both, teach a scheme or system and improve their raw talent.
But some coaches are not capable of doing either...they rely on getting the best talent their team management can buy on the free agent market or draft and hope those players can perform the scheme well enough to make the coaches scheme look good.
Right...and some coaches are handed Tommy Togiai and a few rookies and are expected to stop the run.
Just like you have students who are mentally challenged and just don't understand the material, you also have players who are not NFL football players even if they are on a NFL team.
I just mentioned in the other thread ... Chances of the Browns having the two worst DTs that played this season are incredibly slim ... From a shear talent perspective. Coaching has to be having an impact. . . I would have thunk. I guess it's possible we drafted that badly, and kept players on the roster with such poor talent evaluation, in which case there are still serious issues to look at within the FO.
I think a LOT of nfl players are poor at tackling. They'd rather make the big hit than hit and wrap up.
I agree with you. But don't you think we'll coached teams try to address this? I don't see many Steelers players hitting instead of tackling, and when I watch a Vrabel coached team in in TN I see solid tackling, positioning and just solid D. . . . . So yes, players in general want to be a highlight in ESPN, but coaching can and should temper that imo.
Man, I don't know. I just know too many 'tacklers' try to make the big hit, instead of just making the tackle. You hit and wrap up. That, at the nfl level, shouldn't have to be taught. Just like catching the ball - you can catch, or you struggle to catch. If you struggle to make catches at the nfl level as a receiver, you don't belong. At that point, it can't be coached.
Man, I don't know. I just know too many 'tacklers' try to make the big hit, instead of just making the tackle. You hit and wrap up. That, at the nfl level, shouldn't have to be taught. Just like catching the ball - you can catch, or you struggle to catch. If you struggle to make catches at the nfl level as a receiver, you don't belong. At that point, it can't be coached.
Arch, unfortunately that doesn't make the highlight reels
I agree with you 100%
You're a pro because you're supposed to be the best at basic football skills.
A Pro player saying "man did you see me make that sweet wrap up tackle ?"
The other Pro player saying " No bro, just been seeing the helmet to helmet highlights "
Man, I don't know. I just know too many 'tacklers' try to make the big hit, instead of just making the tackle. You hit and wrap up. That, at the nfl level, shouldn't have to be taught. Just like catching the ball - you can catch, or you struggle to catch. If you struggle to make catches at the nfl level as a receiver, you don't belong. At that point, it can't be coached.
I agree arch. One can coach and coach, but it is up to the players to execute. I am sure every player has been coached on proper tackling technique, but those do not make the highlights.
I really doubt that Woods told the D in the second half "Do not play the run. No matter what they do, do not play the run." Or "completely ignore one receiver on each play."
"The Falcons came into the game averaging 26.9 points per game with the third-leading rusher in the NFL and one of the top, young tight ends in the league, and a high-end wide receiver, to go with a mobile quarterback, who has been effective in running the Falcons offense.
Running back Cordarrelle Patterson came into the game as the NFL's third-leading rusher with over 300 yards. The Browns held him to just 38 yards on nine carries (4.2 avg.) although he did get a 13-yard touchdown run.
Quarterback Marcus Mariota finished with just seven completions in the game, threw an interception, and had a rating of just 41.3. He also was limited to just three yards rushing on five attempts.
Tight end Kyles Pitts had just one reception for 25 yards early in the game and ended with no other receptions, despite being targeted three other times. The Falcons' top draft choice in 2022, Drake London, was held to just two receptions for 17 yards on seven targets."
The Browns were missing four starters on defense. Two are their best pass rushers and the other a starting DT.
The defense has made errors. And those mistakes have been very costly.
However, we have been in every game. We just need to make a few more plays that will make the difference between a loss and a win.
Man, I don't know. I just know too many 'tacklers' try to make the big hit, instead of just making the tackle. You hit and wrap up. That, at the nfl level, shouldn't have to be taught. Just like catching the ball - you can catch, or you struggle to catch. If you struggle to make catches at the nfl level as a receiver, you don't belong. At that point, it can't be coached.
arch...so what you seem to be saying is once a player progresses to the Pros, they no longer are capable of being taught something SO SIMPLE as proper tackling technique..?
arch..you do realize how preposterous that opinion IS, DON'T YOU..?
Do you really believe that once a coach reaches the PRO level that their ability to successfully teach football basics disappears..?
...and do you really believe that once a "player" reaches the PRO level that the player is no longer capable of learning football basics such as tackling technique..?
I'm still amazed that people think with Myles out, with Clowney out and a horrible interior DL that Woods gets blamed for the Falcons running the ball down their throats. Before the season began people were screaming about how horrible the talent was on the DL's interior. Now suddenly that's Woods fault?
Man, I don't know. I just know too many 'tacklers' try to make the big hit, instead of just making the tackle. You hit and wrap up. That, at the nfl level, shouldn't have to be taught. Just like catching the ball - you can catch, or you struggle to catch. If you struggle to make catches at the nfl level as a receiver, you don't belong. At that point, it can't be coached.
arch...so what you seem to be saying is once a player progresses to the Pros, they no longer are capable of being taught something SO SIMPLE as proper tackling technique..?
arch..you do realize how preposterous that opinion IS, DON'T YOU..?
Do you really believe that once a coach reaches the PRO level that their ability to successfully teach football basics disappears..?
...and do you really believe that once a "player" reaches the PRO level that the player is no longer capable of learning football basics such as tackling technique..?
NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH..!!!
The fact is those guys have been taught that stuff by every coach along the way and they simply don't do it. If they won't do it by this point, they aren't.
I'm still amazed that people think with Myles out, with Clowney out and a horrible interior DL that Woods gets blamed for the Falcons running the ball down their throats. Before the season began people were screaming about how horrible the talent was on the DL's interior. Now suddenly that's Woods fault?
We knew the DTs were bad...we've been told the DBs are excellent...yet game after game after game there is a Q4 gaffe that results in a huge play that determines the outcome of the game. There is only one reason for such continued ineptitude.
Man, I don't know. I just know too many 'tacklers' try to make the big hit, instead of just making the tackle. You hit and wrap up. That, at the nfl level, shouldn't have to be taught. Just like catching the ball - you can catch, or you struggle to catch. If you struggle to make catches at the nfl level as a receiver, you don't belong. At that point, it can't be coached.
arch...so what you seem to be saying is once a player progresses to the Pros, they no longer are capable of being taught something SO SIMPLE as proper tackling technique..?
arch..you do realize how preposterous that opinion IS, DON'T YOU..?
Do you really believe that once a coach reaches the PRO level that their ability to successfully teach football basics disappears..?
...and do you really believe that once a "player" reaches the PRO level that the player is no longer capable of learning [bold]football basics such as tackling technique[/bold]..?
NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH..!!!
Hardly worth a reply from me. What you assume I 'seem' to be saying is NOT what I said. I've highlighted, for you, the main point.
If, after 2,3,4 years of Pop Warner football, and after 2-3 years of jr. high football, and 4 years of High school football, and 2-5 years of college football - in each case coaches stressing HOW to tackle.....if you don't know by the time you reach the pro's, there no sense wasting valuable coaching time trying to teach you the BASICS of how to tackle.
Can you name NFL teams that do not have an occasional blown coverage? Because I've never seen one.
Can you name a team that has had 3 in 4 games so far (all in the 4th quarter while trying to close out a game) this year and isn't looking for answers as to how to fix it? Up to and including firing a coach, who has been on the hot seat before?
Can you name NFL teams that do not have an occasional blown coverage? Because I've never seen one.
Can you name a team that has had 3 in 4 games so far (all in the 4th quarter while trying to close out a game) this year and isn't looking for answers as to how to fix it? Up to and including firing a coach, who has been on the hot seat before?
I posted these stats in the Post Game thread, but I think they belong here, too.
Marcus Mariota: 7 out of 19 for 139 yds. 0 TDs and 1 interception. He had 5 rushes for 3 yards w/0 TDs.
Are people saying that our pass defense didn't improve and that adjustments were not made. Also, before the game, a lot were concerned w/Mariotta running the ball. We shut that down. We held those big play weapons (Pitts and London] down.
I know the D got gashed by the run at the end of the game and I am NOT excusing that. However, it's a stretch to say we are not trying to fix things. Hell, Baltimore's secondary has been worse than ours. They have blown two 17+ point leads in the second half this year.
.if you don't know by the time you reach the pro's, there no sense wasting valuable coaching time trying to teach you the BASICS of how to tackle.
arch...so if the Browns defensive coaching staff has a starter..a so called leader of the defense who exhibits inexcusable tackling technique, those coaches are supposed to throw their hands up and declare that #43 is not their problem...he is a product of the system and it is the fault of #43s pee wee, jr high and high school coaches who didn't teach him how to tackle.
arch, you can't teach DESIRE..!!
The player has to have the desire to tackle and if he doesn't have that quality...WHY IS HE A CLEVELAND BROWN..?
..."NO ONE" ACCEPTS RESPONSIBILITY for poor DEFENSIVE performance..especially if it relates to something so basic as football techniques pertaining to the defensive side, such as TACKLING..!!
Defense wins CHAMPIONSHIPS and until the Browns focus on performance of the defense...they will never win a Super Bowl..!!
Not sure what era some are living in, but teams haven't been tackling much in practice for a decade.
Quote
New Rule at N.F.L.’s Camps: No Tackling. It’s Just Practice.
By Bill Pennington July 31, 2013
Pro football summer training camps were once filled with two practices a day, grueling sessions that featured helmeted players clashing gladiator-style under a merciless sun.
That was before the average N.F.L. salary soared to more than $2 million, forcing coaches and owners to weigh the risk and cost of preseason injuries. At the same time, the athletic community has been responding to research outlining the cumulative, debilitating effects of recurrent head trauma, even in practice. What’s left is a training camp landscape that would have been unrecognizable 10 years ago.
As 32 N.F.L. teams opened their camps, the new practice model virtually prohibits tackling and tolerates only nominal full-scale contact between the players, often no more than five minutes a week.
At N.F.L. training camps across the nation this week, it’s as if a bunch of touch football games have broken out.
The trend against tackling and what is known in football parlance as “live contact” began about five years ago, but it has been especially pronounced this summer.
This week, after season-ending knee injuries cost the Philadelphia Eagles two of their starters, Coach Chip Kelly, in his first year with the team, banned tackling for the duration of training camp. Coaches for the Carolina Panthers have issued a similar edict and have been reprimanding any player who knocks someone to the ground. Six days into their training camp, the Giants on Thursday were expecting to wear full pads and engage in limited live contact for the first time.
“The amount of contact now is pretty minimal,” the Giants co-owner John Mara said Tuesday, standing near his team’s practice. “I would contend it’s just not necessary. So this has been a good thing.”
But if the job of defensive football players is to tackle, don’t they need to practice it? And don’t the running backs and receivers need to practice avoiding tacklers? In spring training in baseball, the batters don’t hit off a tee and the pitchers don’t throw only to catchers.
Giants Coach Tom Coughlin conceded there was a challenge to preparing 300-pound players for a violent game without letting teammates turn their ferocity on one another.
“In this day and age, it’s a very fine line and it is not easy,” Coughlin said. “You’ve got to get a team ready to play and they’ve got to be physical, but you can’t step over the line. It’s not worth it.”
Philadelphia’s Kelly called it “a dance that everybody’s got to dance,” adding that his players would have four preseason games with unrestricted tackling. Some teams also schedule scrimmages with other teams.
“They’ll get plenty of hitting in the games,” Kelly said. “But we’ve got to get our guys to the games.”
At parts of every training camp practice — sessions now conducted only once a day, as mandated by a new labor agreement — there is contact between players. Linemen knock shoulders, although not often at full speed. Wide receivers and defensive backs jostle during pass routes, and running backs sprint through narrow gaps between linemen. But almost every time a ball carrier is encountered by a defensive player, that defender will feint a tackle, then merely tap or tag the offensive player.
Infrequently, there is a shoulder lowered to deliver a glancing blow, but in the new N.F.L., except in sporadic cases, defenders in training camp do not use their arms to wrap up a ball carrier and drag or thrust him to the ground.
Sign up for the Sports Newsletter Get our most ambitious projects, stories and analysis delivered to your inbox every week. Get it sent to your inbox. “There is just too much threat of injury to bring a guy down during practice,” said Chase Blackburn, Carolina’s middle linebacker.
Much of this new model reflects the evolution of a pro football training camp that, in many ways, is not what it used to be. Gone are days when practices were full of primal confrontations and when coaches deprived players of water breaks because they believed it toughened them for the harshest conditions of the regular season.
“I remember working at training camp when the players were allowed one little cup of Gatorade per practice,” said Mara, whose father was a Giants owner and who is attending his 52nd training camp this summer. “That was my job — one cup per player — and let me tell you, it was a difficult rule to enforce. We just didn’t know better.”
The modern camp has a water brigade that trolls the grounds hydrating the players with various liquids. Multiple athletic trainers line the fields. Every step is videotaped by camera operators hoisted in cranes so that practice exercises can be analyzed in evening meetings.
Many players come into camp in top physical condition, and most of the drills are about technique, not brute force. Rest is common, and if there is yelling from the coaches, it’s usually directed at a player who has forgotten a page in the four-inch-thick playbook, not at someone not playing with fury.
A practice itinerary is distributed to everyone beforehand, with segments scheduled to the second. An air horn blast announces the beginning and end of each portion of practice, with players trotting from station to station like worker bees.
The regular-season games may still be three hours of vicious collisions, but training camp, once six weeks long, is now a three-week summer exercise in getting players prepared, as safely as possible, for the physical rigor that awaits them.
Eagles safety Nate Allen, a four-year veteran, likes it that way. He said that by the time a player reaches the N.F.L., he needs practice at tackling tactics, but not actual tackling. That can be reserved for games.
“You just have to flip that switch,” Allen said. “And we’ve all been playing long enough to know how to do that.”
Some N.F.L. coaches, like the Jets’ Rex Ryan, decide on the level of live contact by feel; it depends how each training camp develops. On Wednesday, Ryan said he had overseen camps where tackling was prohibited throughout. Other times, he said, “you want to see the cream rise to the top,” adding, “You put it out there, put the ball on the ground and say, ‘Let’s have at it.’ ”
As of Wednesday, the Jets had not tackled in practice.
For all the measured civility and protective deference now routine at N.F.L. training camps, some of the fundamental instincts of the sport still emerge.
On Tuesday at Giants camp, another prohibited activity — shoving and fighting after a play is over — occurred between the 300-pound linemen Eric Herman and Marvin Austin. The scuffle was quickly broken up, but not before teammates boisterously hooted and hollered, as if recognizing that some level of aggression was inevitably going to surface under the hot sun.
That notion was quickly smothered by Coughlin, the Giants’ coach.
“There’s no place for that,” he barked. “Somebody could get hurt.”
No starting defensive lineman today 128 out of defensive lineman Elliott 129 it us the DC fault. Berry has not drafted 1 starting lineman in 3 years should we fire Calhoun after all we only scored 20 points. Last year the defense held opposition to under 20 points 10 times.
No starting defensive lineman today 128 out of defensive lineman Elliott 129 it us the DC fault. Berry has not drafted 1 starting lineman in 3 years should we fire Calhoun after all we only scored 20 points. Last year the defense held opposition to under 20 points 10 times.
I'm wondering if what we really need is someone to look at our interior DL training regimen. Kiffin was listed as a pass rush specialist with the 49ers. Could we possibly get Rod Marinelli (who has ties to the Kiffin family) to consult on our DTs? Or someone similar? As people like to bring up, Woods' specialty is in the defensive secondary. Ben Bloom is our defensive "running game coordinator", and his history appears to be with LBs and DEs. Maybe we need someone with an IDL focus/history added to the staff.
Breakdown of the play Kevin Stafnaski explained as a "technique issue." Seemed everyone knew Jacob Phillips was the weak link here....and he wears the green dot.
General comment, don’t take it as a right or wrong:
Reading these replies going back and forth about: tackling, if the player knows how to tackle, and if it’s being taught by the coaches.
This argument is similar to:
Left handed batter at the plate, the whole infield is shifted to the right of second base, third baseman is basically playing shortstop. Outfield is shifted right.
Fan #1: why doesn’t he hit the ball to the left side of the field? There’s no one there, it’s a free base hit.
Fan #2: because he’s a pull hitter, they are pitching him to pull it to right side
Fan #1: ok, but it’s a free hit. You would think he would know these basic fundamentals or the hitting coaches would’ve taught him that through the minors and big leagues
Fan#2: the big hit/home runs, quickest way to get to the majors and get $$
Fan #1: that still doesn’t make sense, they’re giving up free baserunners and runs for the chance of a home run
(Conversation keeps going back and forth, with no one actually being wrong and ending with something like chicks digging the long ball)
Breakdown of the play Kevin Stafnaski explained as a "technique issue." Seemed everyone knew Jacob Phillips was the weak link here....and he wears the green dot.
Why in the world is Jacob Phillips wearing the Green dot??
Bro, our secondary only allowed 7 completions and had an interception on Sunday. Folks were also worried about Mariota running wild. He rushed for 5 yards. Not having Myles, Clowney, Bryan, and Walker might have had something to do w/our struggles against the run, right?
The Falcons ran 16 fewer plays that we did and averaged 6.1 yards per play. They didn't have to throw. I'm surprised they even let Mariotta pass 19 times, lol.
"The Falcons came into the game averaging 26.9 points per game with the third-leading rusher in the NFL and one of the top, young tight ends in the league, and a high-end wide receiver, to go with a mobile quarterback, who has been effective in running the Falcons offense.
Running back Cordarrelle Patterson came into the game as the NFL's third-leading rusher with over 300 yards. The Browns held him to just 38 yards on nine carries (4.2 avg.) although he did get a 13-yard touchdown run.
Quarterback Marcus Mariota finished with just seven completions in the game, threw an interception, and had a rating of just 41.3. He also was limited to just three yards rushing on five attempts.
Tight end Kyles Pitts had just one reception for 25 yards early in the game and ended with no other receptions, despite being targeted three other times. The Falcons' top draft choice in 2022, Drake London, was held to just two receptions for 17 yards on seven targets."
The Browns were missing four starters on defense. Two are their best pass rushers and the other a starting DT.
The defense has made errors. And those mistakes have been very costly.
However, we have been in every game. We just need to make a few more plays that will make the difference between a loss and a win.
I've been reading these posts day after day and have been wondering what game some of you were watching. The statement that the Browns defense held the third-leading rusher Patterson to 38 yards on nine carries somehow is some type of achievement when they gave up 84 yards rushing to back up Allgeier at 8.4 YPC and his backup Huntley who had 56 yards rushing at 5.6 YPC. Considering the Browns are supposed to have the best RB duo in the NFL, the Browns 177 yards rushing at 5.1 YPC were outdone by the Falcons backups who had 202 rushing yards at 5.8 YPC. IMHO, that's not going into the game with a good defensive plan.
Holding Mariota to 7 completions on the surface may appear to be a successful outing but when you consider the Falcon's run game was chewing up 5.8 YPC, you probably wouldn't think they would have to pass much. Even more disturbing though is those 7 passes completed averaged 19.9 yards per reception. Considering the Falcons came into the game ranked 28th in passing yardage, how in the heck can anyone say the Browns were focused on stopping the pass when you're giving up almost 20 yards per reception to the 28th ranked passing offense? Consider this, the Browns gave up the most yards per reception in the NFL for Week 4 to the Flacons at 19.85 YPR. The closest teams to the Falcons were Chicago at 15.82 YPR vs NYG and Lawrence JAC at 15.81 vs PHI (FYI, the Browns had 11.1 YPR).
So you're saying the Falcons beat the Browns at their own game, running the ball. It does seem odd that everyone mentioned stopping Patterson without pointing out the actual story of the running game by the Falcons from a statistical standpoint. Which is why I suppose some people say stats are for losers. As you have aptly pointed out they can easily be manipulated to try and make a point that doesn't exist. Thanks for the information.
I have a couple of questions for you, and anyone else that would like to address it. I don't think you or many others will actually disagree.
We knew that the DT position was very weak. Even as weak as they were the browns had one starter out. At DE they had both starters out. As the stats Steve pointed out, the Falcons not only beat the Browns in total rushing yards but in YPC as well.
So the question is with the circumstances handed to Woods considering being extremely weak at DT and both DE's being out, how could anyone expect the Browns to be able to stop their running game? How does that rest on the shoulders of Joe Woods?
I have a couple of questions for you, and anyone else that would like to address it. I don't think you or many others will actually disagree.
We knew that the DT position was very weak. Even as weak as they were the browns had one starter out. At DE they had both starters out. As the stats Steve pointed out, the Falcons not only beat the Browns in total rushing yards but in YPC as well.
So the question is with the circumstances handed to Woods considering being extremely weak at DT and both DE's being out, how could anyone expect the Browns to be able to stop their running game? How does that rest on the shoulders of Joe Woods?
It doesn't rest on his shoulders, but his name is on the deed, it's his defense.
We can argue about talent, injuries, all that other stuff. At the end of the day there are certain things that are true... and they seem like ongoing problems with a different set of excuses to be made each week. It is true that we have a very hard time closing out games. It is true that we have a very hard time making adjustments within the flow of the game. It is true that the players constantly point at a certain problem that never seems to go away. It is true that we're a team that needs to play well defensively in order to be playoff worthy.
I don't look at all those truths and think we should fire Joe Woods, not even close. That would be about the dumbest thing we could do right now. I also don't think any of the above is unfair criticism of the team or the coach.
This Sunday, the latest example was as follows... Opposing team has trouble throwing the ball. Opposing team completely abolishes the pass. In one span they run the ball 18 of 19 consecutive plays. In 1.5 quarters they run the ball 22 times for 170 yards. During a 17 play stretch they never even sniff a 3rd down -- think about that! During this time there was one completed pass... It was for 42 yards and firmly punched the first nail in the coffin.
It looked like amateur hour. Again. It's been going on for two+ years.
And IMO that's accurate to the extent they chewed us up with their running game. But as with anything you'll only come out with the ingredients you have to put into your recipe. We certainly didn't have the ingredients to stop the running game. Maybe it's time people look closer at who is providing the ingredients?
I understand that there have been issues with blown coverages in the earlier games. But that issue was addressed in the Falcons game. Their pass game was virtually non existent. I also understand you don't have to pass when you can run all over your opponent. But when it comes to stopping the run and no matter whose name is on the deed, it's what caused the problem you have to figure out if you plan to fix what caused it. In the case of the Falcons game I don't see it as Woods being the problem.
When Hue was here - I was an advocate for keeping him. The roster was trash and I wanted consistency instead of the steady churn we had seen since Haslam's arrival. . . . Well what do you know, same roster, different coach and the results with the same players were wildly different.
Certainly I think there are times when we over value coaching. One phrase from Colin Cowherd that I liked (who I mostly think is a complete fake) - coaches with really good QB's generally look smarter. I can't remember who he was talking about - but it was a HC everyone thought was really good, went to a bad/average team and looked like chopped liver. It's possible some of us are overly critical of Joe Woods .... but to your point, I think we've seen some consistent and concerning (flat out alarming) issues that have plagued his entire tenure. Phil Snow is the Panthers D coordinator - I've watched 2 1/2 Panther games this year and his play calling has impressed me right thru each game. He has about the same talent (on paper) as the Browns should have. Maybe their LB group overall is more talented and for damn sure their DT's are (they have a former #1 draft pick who previously chronically under-performed as one example). . . He mixes it up, he's aggressive, then drops back, in the last game he ran three different zone coverages on three consecutive plays to confuse the QB, he has the safeties creep up, he has them drop back. He seems to run a D that I would like to see in Cleveland. . . . Oh and no confusion on any given play! How about that for a concept.
I'm not sure that there is a big mystery here. Stefanski is average and the results are in line with that. If he wants to be better than average, get better than average results. If he can't get better than average results the team should consider finding someone who can.
I'm tired of rooting for a loser. I'm especially tired of rooting for a loser that has this much talent on the roster. I'm tired of Stefanski saying he needs to learn. Stop saying that. You need to win more than you lose. Say that instead. Would be much more genuine.
The excuse making in here is insanity. Many people on here wouldn't allow excuse making for Baker. It shouldn't be allowed for Stefanski.
Many people on here wouldn't allow excuse making for Baker.
I've been wondering....At least it's out of the bag.
I'm honestly not following here.
It's not a big deal. I have been wondering why you were so hard on Stefanski. I get why The Fabulous Baker Boys are, but they aren't to be taken seriously. You are typically a more fair-minded poster. I was considering that perhaps you just are hard on all coaches. Trying to remember how you were w/T. Lue? I know lead hated him. But, now it looks like you think Stefanski deserves criticism because Baker was criticized? Is that correct?
If so, that would include me. Hell, it might just be me alone. LOL. I'm not mad about it or anything. I'll just reply that I think Baker earned his criticism. I truly believe that Stefanski has done a tremendous job. He has had to deal w/a lot of crap. Covid, Baker, OBJ, Watson, etc. Constantly having to put out fires that were not his doing.
Rish, if you remember.......I did not like the hiring of Stefanski. I was against it and said so. However, I admit it when I am wrong. Stefanski has earned my trust and accolades. I'm not asking you to agree w/me. Your opinion is your own. I'm just saying I am not applying double standards here.
He's just now figuring that out!? I'd fire him today. Good thing we rested starters all preseason (again) while we worked out the communication issues in that joint practice.
Sending in two play calls is not unusual at all. Anyone want to know the "why" of it or do we just want to use this to pile on a coach? I'll try and explain if anyone wants to hear it.
I am certain that a two play call is nothing to do with reacting to how the offense lines up or if an audible is called. And while it might not be unusual - I think the amount of confusion shown by CLE this year is. And is it a lack of player talent or bad coaching that would result in a 2 play call being mis-understood by the players?
Sending in two play calls is not unusual at all. Anyone want to know the "why" of it or do we just want to use this to pile on a coach? I'll try and explain if anyone wants to hear it.
It doesn't matter if the issue is wearing the wrong damn cleats...(3) preseason games...(4) regular season games...the past (2) years...and he is just NOW figuring out what is the problem.
There was plenty of help available and Berry just watches week after week this defense get shredded.. Dont'a Hightower, Joe Schobert, Blake Martinez, Suh, Richardson.. All would have come in and provided veteran leadership and calmed the front 7 issues down.
Woods has to go. We were gashed by THE worst rushing team in the NFL. This smells exactly like the 1-31 Hue apologists wanting to wait and see what he does with better players. We've got a 39 game sample to see that Woods isn't getting it done.
I'm starting to feel the same way. I thought Hue was better than he was. I was wrong. I've said this before, and I'll repeat it. If Rex Ryan became our DC tomorrow, we would improve with just the players we have now. I understand we can't hire him for certain reasons. He's pretentious he would be disruptive, but his schemes would turn this D around. I don't think much of him as a HC but as a DC there aren't too many better just like his father. JMO
Rex Ryan won't be hired here. He is an egotistical jerk who would undermine our HC and try to take his job in a similar fashion Haley did w/Hue. The difference between the situations is that Rex would be a lot more loud and obvious about it.
If we make a change, I think it should be Fangio. But, I'd wait until the end of the season.
Agreed we can't hire him here as I stated and for the reasons I mentioned and you said. What I'm trying to see is that with a better DC and scheme we would be better on D with the guys we have now. I used Rex as an example.
Perhaps. I don't know, though. You guys could be right. But did you not see how many times we were in position and our guys missed tackles? That seems to be more of a personnel problem to me. But, I'm not positive about that.
Man, JOK is so overrated. He is weak. Guys break through his tackles all the time. He takes awful angles in coverage. Delpit can't cover his shadow. He is a good tackler, though. What does JJ ever do? Phillips gets consumed by blocks. Our interior line can't make plays even when Myles faces three guys on one freaking play.
I don't know......maybe they are thinking too much and it is Woods' fault. But, I know football and I'm seeing a lot of crappy plays by individuals on the field of play. Ask yourself how many tackles their RBs broke? Was that scheme? Or poor tackling?
Maybe we need a DC that will get in the guy's face's and kick them in their backside once in a while. We're soft and it shows. It's like the players don't care.
I do hope someone steps in and fixes the finger pointing and lack of communication
before it's not fixable
Wasn't that part of the big deal about JJIII? Wasn't he the QB of the DBs in LA? Wasn't he the signal caller, the vocal leader, the veteran guy who would hold all of our young guys accountable? Wasn't that him?
I think, but am not sure, that that was the rhetoric. However, the Rams drafted Jordan Fuller from The Ohio State University and chose not to keep JJ. Not sure what to make of that????? But, we had to replace that dude w/a name that sounded like a city in the country that used to be Yugoslavia.
I do hope someone steps in and fixes the finger pointing and lack of communication
before it's not fixable
Wasn't that part of the big deal about JJIII? Wasn't he the QB of the DBs in LA? Wasn't he the signal caller, the vocal leader, the veteran guy who would hold all of our young guys accountable? Wasn't that him?
That is what we were told.
Just needing to "clean it up" is starting to take on a new meaning.
I do hope someone steps in and fixes the finger pointing and lack of communication
before it's not fixable
Wasn't that part of the big deal about JJIII? Wasn't he the QB of the DBs in LA? Wasn't he the signal caller, the vocal leader, the veteran guy who would hold all of our young guys accountable? Wasn't that him?
If I m remembering correctly, last season we started out with communication issues on defense, especially in the defensive backfield. This was with Anthony Walker wearing the green dot. Then Walker got injured, the green dot transferred to JJ3 and the defense got in sync and oayed pretty well the back half of the season.
Fast forward to this season, Walker is back and starting and gets the green dot back. There is a lack of communication especially in the defensive backfield. Walker gets injured an is again out for the season. I expected the green dot to transfer to JJ3, but instead it goes to Phillips. This I don't get. JJ3 clearly did a good job with the green dot last year. Instead we give it to a back-up linebacker?
a backup linebacker who barely played and when he does is the one of the worst linebacker in the NFL...JJ3 def. should have had it as the veteran
I asked this before....why is the green dot so friggen important? It's not like that person gets everybody lined up. They hear the call and make the huddle call.I have never seen them getting the D line and other positions lined up.
Unless the guys is a dummy and can't repeat what he is told in the earpiece or can't talk clearly enough, anybody can wear the dot.
To me the problem isn't the green dot, it's the players who don't know what the hell they are supposed to do on various defensive calls.
JJ3 was one of the top safeties in the league with the Rams, PFF gave him an elite grade 3 out of 4 seasons with them and the lone season he didn't receive an elite grade he was injured and missed 11 games. Yet he comes here and he has been average at best, why? Troy Hill was a pretty good Nickle Corner for the Rams and he comes here for 1 year and is average at best, goes back to the Rams and his PFF grade goes back up to above average, why?
JJ3 was one of the top safeties in the league with the Rams, PFF gave him an elite grade 3 out of 4 seasons with them and the lone season he didn't receive an elite grade he was injured and missed 11 games. Yet he comes here and he has been average at best, why? Troy Hill was a pretty good Nickle Corner for the Rams and he comes here for 1 year and is average at best, goes back to the Rams and his PFF grade goes back up to above average, why?
Honestly that might be the best datum point to grade our coaching on - better than trying to guess what rookie DT's and LBs might or might not have been elsewhere. JJ3 is pretty b/w example.
I half expected to see that we fired Joe Woods this morning.
Not that I like to see someone get fired ... but we have fired some coaches in the past over less ineptitude then we have been witnessing with each passing game this season ... it's unexceptable at this level.
a backup linebacker who barely played and when he does is the one of the worst linebacker in the NFL...JJ3 def. should have had it as the veteran
I asked this before....why is the green dot so friggen important? It's not like that person gets everybody lined up. They hear the call and make the huddle call.I have never seen them getting the D line and other positions lined up.
Unless the guys is a dummy and can't repeat what he is told in the earpiece or can't talk clearly enough, anybody can wear the dot.
To me the problem isn't the green dot, it's the players who don't know what the hell they are supposed to do on various defensive calls.
My understanding is that the defensive player with the green dot is the "Qb" of the defensive and is able to read the play the offense is going to run and audible the defensive call to better match up
I would like to say, if you are defending JW, every argument you make is probably factual. Stats and analytics say one thing.
But for 2 years it is the same thing. rinse & repeat.
The Browns can not hold a lead. Period. Up 3 points with 3:00 left- game over, we lose. Up 13 with 2:00 to go, Game Over- yep, we lose.
Whenever the Browns score to build any momentum, the D is giving up a big plays and points. probably on back to back possessions erasing any lead we thought we had.
Every Dang Game.
The dude refuses to disguise looks and bring more than 4 rushers more than a couple times a game and it is old.
Note: Just a personal opinion and one that probably won't be shared by many.
I think most people who have followed my posting history knows that I often defend coaches. I usually don't like the hire, but I try to defend them in what I view as unfair criticism. That's probably due an answer that is two-fold.
The first being is that a lot of these guys were not the greatest players. They loved the game. Played the game. Never succeeded because they were superior athletes, but they worked harder than almost everyone. They studied the game because they loved it and/or were motivated to be the very best they could be. Most of the greatest coaches/managers in many sports were marginal players who did things the right way. Think of guys like Belichick, Lasorda, Pat Riley, etc. They reach the upper echelon of their profession and so many scream about how terrible they are. It bothers me that people actually want to see people fired from their job. That does not seem very humaine to me. It seems rather cruel. And I am almost 100% positive that those calling for these guys to be fired don't have even 20% of the knowledge that the coaches/managers have.
The second is that I coached. Multiple sports on various levels. It's a tough job and some dummy in the stands always knows more than the coaches do. It's annoying. They don't know 32 Iso from 20 Trap, yet they say "What a dumb play call! They don't go to practices and are not involved in team meetings or visit the locker room. Yet, they can tell you w/certainty that a coach is failing on all three levels.
It’s hard being one of the extras on this sitcom. The writers haven’t given me a catch phrase like you. Hopefully I can work my way up and in the next season series or two the writers will add one for me.
Maybe over 20 years now, I was at a Tennessee Baseball Coaches Association meeting and at the banquet I had the luck chance to sit at a table with Tommy Lasorda.
One of the things he said was that every American man feels he can do 3 things better than any other man.
On a side note - camp fire. Several years ago, at a camp site, dude started a fire to cook over. He's a doctor. A Gen Prac doctor, and relation. He was complaining about the smoke blowing right where they were going to sit.
I said "Bet you started the fire on that side, didn't you?" Yes. I said "smoke always goes to the side you start the fire on." He was amazed, this doctor. Said I never knew that! How'd you know that? In boy scouts? I could not contain myself............."no, Dr. It really has to do with the way the wind is blowing."
It’s hard being one of the extras on this sitcom. The writers haven’t given me a catch phrase like you. Hopefully I can work my way up and in the next season series or two the writers will add one for me.
Well, it's obvious that you don't have a degree from Troll-U, or you could have 5 thousand posts with one less like than the guy you are trolling for a thanks post boosting his post count. You can't make this crap up, so you should have fun with it just like you did.
Cards have had some great teams w/Gibson, Brock, Flood, Herzon, Red Schodiest [spelling] Herzon, Dale Maxville, Ken Boyer, Hernandez, Torre, Hendrick, Jack Clark, Willie McGhee, Coleman, Ozzie, Tudor, Forsch, Pendelton, Van Slyke, etc.
Sure have. One of the 2 or 3 best baseball cities in America. I've been there 3 times with my family to watch games and take in the sites of St. Louis. Very enjoyable and the people were nice. It broke my heart when they lost to Detroit in the "68 World Series after being up 3-1. Then they did it again in "85. UGH!!!
IMO there's no reason why he can't be replaced now or in the next few weeks as long as they have someone in mind and ready to go when the change is made. Vic Fangio is an example. I would hire someone outside of the organization that would have a different scheme as long as it would work with the personnel we have now. I think a change could make a world of difference and give a much-needed jolt to this team. Why wait? things are not going well and we should have at least 2-3 more wins at this point. Our losses have been a travesty and even yesterday we were in it until that stupid 2PT. conversion try. Maybe our D guys would actually play harder for someone new. Get ready for another episode of futility this coming Sunday.
Just to expound on the subject. We need to get someone in here with an attitude, someone with some fire that our players may be a little intimidated by. A guy like Mangini (we know we won't hire him nor would he come back as DC) maybe Greg Williams. I'm not saying to hire these guys I'm just giving examples off the top of my head of coaches that will discipline and command respect and accountability from our players that's all.
I personally think it would be best to see how the season plays out and make a move right after the season if need be. I'm not sure if Woods is the problem or not. He might be. But, I see a lot of crappy tackling and angles taken by defenders. We still don't have a true FS. I personally don't think replacing Woods during the season is going to make us a Super Bowl contender this year. Waiting until the end of the season will put more candidates in play.
You might be right I don't know. I do know we're going into a stretch of games playing some very good QB's. The only really good one we've faced so far is Justin Hebert. How many times has a QB thrown for 500 yards in an NFL game? You may see it once or twice in our next 6 games. On second thought maybe not. Not when the opposing team can rush for 300+ against us!!!
I personally think it would be best to see how the season plays out and make a move right after the season if need be. I'm not sure if Woods is the problem or not. He might be. But, I see a lot of crappy tackling and angles taken by defenders. We still don't have a true FS. I personally don't think replacing Woods during the season is going to make us a Super Bowl contender this year. Waiting until the end of the season will put more candidates in play.
100% agree.
Woods was able to turn around poor starts in both previous years. I fully expect him to have the D fixed by the time DW is back. I do hope we find a new DC in the off-season, as it seems Woods has this pattern of slow starts.
Okay fine but I have a question. Why does he have to fix the D again if he fixed it last year? We have pretty much the same guys from last season minus Anthony Walker. I understand adjustments have to be made week to week and in game but fix again?
I personally think it would be best to see how the season plays out and make a move right after the season if need be. I'm not sure if Woods is the problem or not. He might be. But, I see a lot of crappy tackling and angles taken by defenders. We still don't have a true FS. I personally don't think replacing Woods during the season is going to make us a Super Bowl contender this year. Waiting until the end of the season will put more candidates in play.
100% agree.
Woods was able to turn around poor starts in both previous years. I fully expect him to have the D fixed by the time DW is back. I do hope we find a new DC in the off-season, as it seems Woods has this pattern of slow starts.
Should it really take 6-8 games to turn things around? Each year?
But I don't see Haslam dipping back into the past for Woods' replacement (if the change actually happens). He'll go young and upcoming. I'm sure there'll be a few names suggested on this board in the weeks to come.
I think the apex of William's career has already come.
Give him a head coaching job with a gigantic payday before retirement, then maybe.
I can see other posters points about waiting until the end of the season to make a change. The points made are plausible, but it just bothers me to no end to see us make the same mistakes and get beat down week after week on D and yesterday the O kicked in with a lousy effort. Well, we can hope and pray our coaches get some things straightened out. I'd like to be wrong about my win total prediction.
To me, there is only one ideal situation that dictates a mid-season coaching change at the top (HC, OC, DC)... The guy you want (and I don't mean "are willing to settle for") is immediately available. If so, that's a huge win, as he has a partial season to salvage or work towards the future. Obviously, the salvage part is key to timing. If this is salvageable and that dude is unemployed? Do it. Now.
That is very seldom the case. Fangio? He could fit that criteria (and I'd be thrilled with the hire), but he is employed... Not formally enough to make it impossible, but he is a paid consultant for the Eagles -- and probably loving every minute of it.
Your other option is to get the stench out of the building (if that's the way you see it) and bump someone from the ranks to be the interim. First -- I don't think that's the way we view Woods. Second -- is that the right approach in a season filled with uncertainty anyway? Probably not.
If that is the case, or becomes such, I would expect us to elevate Pass game coordinator/defensive backs – Jeff Howard... He spent seven seasons (2013-19) on the same coaching staff with Stefanski in Minnesota. OR... Linebackers – Jason Tarver... 19 seasons in the NFL including Defensive Coordinator experience with the Raiders (2012-14)... Probably the latter.
Not a big fan of making the change right now, although I (nearly) completely agree with all the stated reasons why. And in short, I really don't think Woods is going to work out.
I do know one thing (at least I'm arrogant enough to believe I do lol)...
There was a meeting in Berea this morning. I suspect the only one who bothered to put a fist on the table was Jimmy Haslam. I also think this organization was "designed" by him to be just that. Another set of "yes men"; this set aligned in philosophy, slaves to the analytics that put them all together in the first place. "Just follow the system" types, of which none are willing or capable of kicking the damn chair out from under their ass, standing up, and getting loud: "this isn't cutting it, figure it out or it's your ass".
Somewhere along this string of command, this attitude is necessary right now, and going forward. When a change is made, I expect the next hire to be more like Gregg Williams and less like Joe Woods. This type of personality is necessary for Stefanski, he's not mean and nasty enough to be that guy... "good cop / bad cop" would be a much better environment for him to work in.
Stefanski is an offensive minded HC who designs the scheme and calls the plays. That shouldn't change, that's where he thrives. It doesn't need to change if there is an alpha on the defensive side. Joe Woods is not that guy.
I know one more thing... We play BALTIMORE next Sunday. If the performance looks anything like yesterday, or the defense leaves the field clutching the same excuses we've seen all season... there will likely be more than fists on the table from Haslam.
I personally think it would be best to see how the season plays out and make a move right after the season if need be. I'm not sure if Woods is the problem or not. He might be. But, I see a lot of crappy tackling and angles taken by defenders. We still don't have a true FS. I personally don't think replacing Woods during the season is going to make us a Super Bowl contender this year. Waiting until the end of the season will put more candidates in play.
100% agree.
Woods was able to turn around poor starts in both previous years. I fully expect him to have the D fixed by the time DW is back. I do hope we find a new DC in the off-season, as it seems Woods has this pattern of slow starts.
Should it really take 6-8 games to turn things around? Each year?
So is it just Woods coaching (or lack of coaching) it serms to me that he needs to simplify the defense until everybody is on the same page. Good coaches work with the talent they have. They don't try to fit squareplayers into round holes just to fit his schemes.
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