This is impressive, especially since we are doing it w/a backup qb that almost everyone said sucked.

Really impressive … just by the eye test I’d bet Seattle is near the top of the list too, along with SF

Who exactly said Brissett sucked? Should be easy for you to name names since "almost everyone" said that...right?

Thanks for posting. Man, the Eagles have been quite the surprise this year. I honestly didn't expect much out of their offense this year. I was wrong.

Glad their defense is doing well, too. I went to high school with Jon Gannon. He actually sat behind me in our very first class together as freshmen. We also caddied together at Westwood and occasionally played golf together at Little Met. Super great guy. He was also one hell of an athlete. WR/CB and started at point guard. IIRC, he had a scholarship to Louisville to play DB and broke his hip, which ended that dream. Guy was always a motivator who people gravitated to. Glad the coaching route seems to be working out really well for him. I'll be curious to see if he gets his own HC gig here in the near future.

Eagles made the playoffs last year. Great OL and DL. Added AB Brown. Their HC botched a couple of interviews, but is a great motivator and is doing a great job of adjusting things to fit his offensive personnel. The question was Hurts. He played better last year than he had in the past, but his growth has been truly remarkable. He is making plays from the pocket that he never could before. Dude must be an insanely hard worker and totally dedicated to his craft.

Cool story about Gannon. It's always cool to see those you know succeed.

There were plenty. Quit trying to pick a fight....geesh

I was looking for rankings to see if D4's point about Seattle and SF were correct and didn't find an updated list, but I ran across this, which is interesting in its own right. By the way, the analytical folks really value EPA on both offense and defense.

Top EPA QBs.

J. Allen
P. Mahomes
3. G. Smith
4. J. Hurts
5. L. Jackson
6. J. Brissett
7. Tua Tagolailoa
8. D. Jones
9. J. Burrow
10. K. Murray


https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr/_/sort/cwepaTotal/dir/desc

I will provide a couple of links for those of you who are interested in learning more about EPA and why it's valuable. Some people hate this kind of stuff. I think it's fascinating, but I also love data analysis in almost all forms. LOL




https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/8379024/nfl-explaining-expected-points-metric

https://www.the33rdteam.com/breakdowns/epa-explained/

https://www.actionnetwork.com/educa...etric-can-help-you-with-football-betting

He just can't help himself. It's an obsession with him.

Yeah, he was the poster trying to instigate it.

He does suck, he can't throw a long pass with much accuracy, he folds when the game is on the line, and if it weren't for the fact that we have 2 of the best RBs in the NFL we'd be lucky to be 3-5 right now.

if we didn't have a D that collapsed faster than Brady's retirement, we'd actually be 6-2 or 5-3.

Your right but that still doesn't take away the fact that our Offense is mostly Chubb and Hunt.

That might be applied to many Brown's teams over the last 20 years. We've had years when both sides of the ball sucked badly - we've had years when one side of the ball appeared to do enough to win more games but we'd get let down by the other. The common thread was a losing record. Hoping Bengals game was a turning / galvanizing point. 3 more games till we see the new Shiny Toy. Things should only get better n better.

I provided this link earlier for the top 10 QBs in EPA, but click on all the columns, including QBR, PAA, EPA, PASS, and RAW and see where Jacoby ranks. His PFF score iis 8th overall, as well. I wasn't intending to make this a Jacoby thread. I thought the information was interesting. But Jacoby is playing well and far above expectations, including my own.


https://www.espn.com/nfl/qbr/_/sort/schedAdjQBR/dir/desc

people really need to put some respect on Stefanski's name. He definitely deserves criticism, because the struggles on the defense and special teams the first half of this season ultimately falls on him as the HC. He really needs to help stabilize the defense with Woods, and some of the 4th down play calling has been ugly.

But just overall as a HC, he is a damn good HC and he isn't going anywhere. I dunno why i see post here and there on this board about stefanski might/should get fired. or even Berry, that's freaking crazy to me. our offenses have looked amazing with Stefanski - play calling fails and all - and right now he has JB in a position to look just as competent - or even better - as Baker was. It has to be stated because like it or not he's tied to this franchise, but so far Stefanski has had to go out and win games with Keenum and Brissett, and our offense still functions at a high level. Nobody on this board can say we'd have a better record right now if Baker was our QB. He is currently a backup, afterall. and it's a fair line of criticism because if Baker was THAT good of a QB, and Stefanski WASNT that good of a head coach, we should be 2-6 or winless. the only game he was out coached this season was against the BB and the patriots. We're competing in our division FINALLY, as under stefanski we're now 9-7 against division rivals.

and yea, we as fans gotta wait around til week 11 or 12 this season to see stefanski with our "franchise", but most likely we should see what Stefanski is capable of in the 2023 season.

we have also been banged up with all sorts of starters being out, and yet we dominated on national TV against the bengals. say what yall want but they are defending AFC champs, it matters. our defense showed up, we played a complete game, and thats kudos to Stefanski. clearly he comes up with an effective gameplan. We just need more consistency on defense. and who knows because our division is a disaster. Ravens are banged up, so are the bengals, and the steelers suck. I know we have 3 tough games coming up after the bye, but this season is literally even given sunday all around the league.

if we somehow get a WC spot with our starting QB being suspended the first 11 games of the season, it's gonna be silent around here when it comes to coaching.

I want Stefanski to succeed. I don't want him to fail. Ultimately, I want to win games. The way we lose games is unacceptable, and it should be unacceptable to the entire organization. Football is precious. Every game is precious. There are so few, and it is truly a year to year league. We can't wait around for Stefanski to achieve consistency. He has to be consistent. His teams have to lose only because the other team made more plays, not because guys don't know how to fill gaps. Not because guys don't know how to communicate. It is the head coach's job to assess the needs of his team across the board and to put the entire team in a position to succeed. Last season he did not do that. This season he has not done that. The team is 3-5.

I do appreciate that we are now competitive within the division. I think that's a big deal. I do appreciate that we haven't had any double digit loss seasons in the last two years. That felt nice. I do see positive signs. But it's no different than a QB. You have to be consistent, and when the other teams catch up to what you do well, and they will, you have to counter it. The NFL is the ultimate chess game.

Anyone who thinks Stefanski has been a good head coach is mistaken. He has consistently gotten worse each season, and his teams lose because they aren't prepared and guys don't play hard. That doesn't mean he can't right the ship and get it figured out. It doesn't mean we shouldn't stick with him. It doesn't mean continuity is not important. But if you are being objective and results driven, Stefanski is a bottom half of the league coach at this point in his tenure, and that's just not good enough long term.

Get better. Prioritize winning. Win games. Win freaking games.

I don't know about "silent around here" because everybody always has a bone to pick with play calls... here and in every other NFL city.

Besides that, I agree with nearly everything you said. Sometimes I think his leadership style is a bit soft, but who-the-hell am I? I'm certainly not privy to what goes on behind closed doors.

Criticizing his scheme, play-calling, or ability to put his QBs in a good position is questionable at best. Calling for his head is next level stupid... jmo.

That's impressive ... and that's without Watson.

My biggest criticism of Stefanski is that he only has one gear. I think is offense only has one gear. He doesn't seem to be able to create or take advantage of momentum. I don't think he's done anything remotely close to a fireable offense. He's clearly been a stabilizing force.

BUT...

I'm not sure yet if he's the guy to get us to the SB yet. I'm afraid he may be the Andy Dalton of HC's... we can get to the playoffs consistently but.. To his credit he has had Jacoby playing to a level he should, AND he even had Baker holding it down for a period of time. But if Jacoby is playing this well, what more are we going to get of Deshaun? Yes, I know he's more exciting to watch... and yes, I've heard the assumptions that Ski would do more if he had a better QB, but that clearly remains to be seen. Yes a coach can have his QB playing better than he should be capable of, but a coach can also be a limiting factor on his QB. So long as Ski is running this offense, I think it will be good, but not quite good enough. I think we'll see this offense limit Watson more than Watson will open it up.

I think most people would be fine if not happy to keep Ski as HC but pass the play calls off to an OC.

I agree w/some of that. KS has done a good job of having QBs elevate their game (Cousins, Mayfield, Brissett), which is what the NFL is about since its a QB league.

There are times when the actual play calls (like, WHEN stuff is called) is head scratching. I do think he’s a really good schemer. Guys are open and concepts build on each other.

IMO you are mistaken.

You speak of consistency in a vacuum.

Pretty hard to be consistent in the NFL given how close the teams are when you get inconsistent play at quarterback. You are a huge critic of BM.

Stefanski inherited him. His coaching and scheme produced the best BM had. At the same time BM's inconsistent play contributed to losing games.

KS does not get a free pass. ST and the defense have been inconsistent. As HC he has responsibility for his staff. At he same time head coaches have to delegate that is why there are Coordinators. There is not enough time in a day to do it all.

The Patriot game was poorly coached all the way around. The Browns got trashed last year and acted like nothing was learned. Took another beat down this year in like manor.

However, it happens. Belichick is the best. And sometimes bad teams beat good teams.

Overall under KS the Browns have become a competitive team when before him. They were not.

In his three years we are light years from where we were before. We have lost close games to good teams. Playing with inferior quarterback play.


The defense and ST has been inconsistent and I could see some changes there. That has been frustrating because IMO there is enough talent for the most part. There have times when they have played well and that is an indication there is a problem not just from inconsistency but they way they have played.

But, you don't throw out the baby with the bath water. You make corrections.

KS has been a head coach for three years. He is not perfect. He is a good head coach and will get better. To become a great head coach you need cooperation of the owner, a damn good GM and patience. The NFL is a tough. Look at the records of Green Bay, Bucs, Chargers, Rams, 49ers.

Consistency in the NFL is extremely difficult when 27 teams are damn near equal and you are starting a backup quarterback.

I think Stefanski is proving to be an excellent HC. He reminds me a lot of Shanny in SF. Guys who truly understand scheme and how to create building blocks w/their playcalling. Run a play that has a similar design several times and then change it to hit a big play. For example. The TE blocks down on the Edge while helping the OT during outside zone runs. After this look is given a handful of times, the TE chips and takes off down the field and is wide open. Both Shanny and Stefanski are masters at this.

Swish mentioned the ugly 4th down calls, but I think that every play that doesn't work looks ugly for the most part and those are the plays that we remember. A few posters have created a tale of the Browns not being good on 4th down even if analytics say they should go for it. However, stats are available and the Browns are currently ranked 7th best in the NFL at a 62.5% success rate, including 66.7% in their last 3 games. Of course, it helps to have a qb like Jacoby who is very good at QB sneaks. But, in order to get to that situation, you have to be fairly good on your one of your earlier downs. The Browns have done a pretty good job of not falling behind the chains this year.

This team wasn't too far removed from 1 and 15 and 0 and 16. They were 6 and 10 the year before Stefanski arrived. He went 11 and 5 and completely changed the culture around here. He has established the Browns as a very physical offensive team. There is no denying that. We beat people up while on offense. I understand that the HC is responsible for the Special Teams and Defense. However, do you think Andy Reed runs the D in KC? Does Shanny in SF? McVey in LA? Taylor in Cinci? Those coaches make suggestions to their coordinators and there is documented evidence that Stefanski has done exactly that. It is also documented that he got on JJ for getting a penalty by saying something like you can't play on this team by making dumb penalties. He was in Woods' ear at the end of the Ravens game. He has changed practices up to emphasize more tackling. He is making adjustments. There is nothing left to do other than fire coordinators or bench players. I think firing a coordinator in-season would be a mistake. Others may disagree and that is fine. But, I would rather try and work things out during the season and make a change at the end of the season if things don't improve because more and better candidates will be available in hiring pool.

I think Stefanski has handled adversity well. He had to deal w/Covid while implementing new schemes in all three phases of the game. He had to change the culture that was beaten down by years of losing and the mess that Freddie left that looked like a playroom for a dozen 3 year olds. He had to deal w/the Baker/OBJ drama and the former's constant need to go public w/all his thoughts and emotions. He had to deal w/the enormous distraction that the signing of Watson created this year, while the owners and FO personnel stayed behind the scenes and were comfortable letting Kevin handle it. He doesn't call players out in the media like Hue did. He doesn't huff and puff w/fake bluster like Freddie did. He remains calm and in control while making adjustments and keeping the ship afloat.

He has taken two qbs who have failed w/other coaches and got them to play beyond their means. He actually schemes to accentuate a player's strengths and minimize their weaknesses. He has gotten guys like Njoku to grow and even become an excellent blocker. He has smartly handled the work load of his star RB, Nick Chubb. He has used analytics to give the team an edge. And while I don't expect a ton of difference this year w/Watson's return........I think that next year we are going to see a whole new dimension unleashed upon the league. He will finally have a guy who can make a good play out of a bad play call. A guy who can overcome a great defensive call. A guy who puts so much pressure on the D w/both his arm and legs that they will have to specifically game plan just for Watson. And what will that do for other guys on the team? It will open up an incredible amount of opportunities for some very talented players at our skilled positions while our offensive line continues to be one of the best in the entire freaking league!

Stefanski and Berry have some flaws, but they are a team. A team I want to remain in Cleveland for a long-ass time. We are finally in good hands!

I don't know. While you mentioned putting his QB's in a position to succeed you might wish to look at Brissett's career stats compared to what he has done this year playing for Stenfanski. Sure there was that three game skid but overall Brissett has not played anything like this his entire career to this point. Then even with Baker injured last year, Stefanski seemed to be able to get more out of an injured Baker than Rhule could get out of a healthy Baker. I think Stefanski has managed to get a lot out of the QB's he's had to work with if one looks at an overview of the subject.

I comparing any offensive play caller to Rhule in like having a math contast between einstein and barney rubble

But I get your point
I think stefansli is a good OC.

Great at scheming, decent at play calling, gets roo fixated on the pass when the team is deaigned to run.
All in all that is a small criticism of him as an OC. Sime of his head scratching play call might be a consequence of his head coaching duties getring in the way.

What I have not seen is anything that shows me he is above average as a head coach.

Pro Football Focus labeled Brissett as the team’s “biggest surprise” with his 77.5 grade.

What could be even more surprising is that Brissett grades out as the eighth-best quarterback in the NFL just ahead of Burrow and Jackson.

That is not an accident.

"The Cleveland Browns, led by head coach Kevin Stefanski, is currently graded as the sixth-most efficient offense according to Football Outsiders’ DVOA metric. They boast a top-10 passing attack while carrying the top rushing attack in the league. To throw another impressive stat in there as well, no offense has been in the redzone more than the Browns.

According to SI’s John Shipley, the Browns have made 31 trips to the redzone in 2022, which is one more than the Kansas City Chiefs, Baltimore Ravens, and Jacksonville Jaguars. The Browns are also converting 61.3 percent of those drives into touchdowns as well, ranking them 11th in the league in redzone conversion rate. Again this is with a back-up quarterback."

Our offense ranks up there with Buffalo, Philly, Minnesota, etc.

That’s enough evidence to think we’re at least well coached on that side of the ball. The playcalling at times is suspect but I think that’s always the case when things dont work lol.

My criticism of KS is his lack of work with the defense (whether that’s getting more involved, adjusting stuff, or firing Woods/coaches/etc). we played better last game, but that should be the NORM not the outlier.

Can you provide specific examples of why he is below average? Also, what is your level of expertise in such things?

I didn't say he was below average. Nor did I say that I saw anything that makes me think he is below average. I said that I have not seen anything that that shows me he is above average -> see the words you quoted.

Basically I am saying he is a good offensive coordinator and an average HC and I am asking for people to give me examples of him showing us that he is above average as a HC.

Examples that I would offer that he is below average now that I am thinking about it would be his mishandling of Baker's injury last season. He should have sat him a few games to let him recover. I also think he gets out coached frequently.

My expertise is the the same as anyone else's on this board. I am a fan, I have watched the games, I have played the sport some, I have coached some in the past, and I have an opinion.

For clarity, I did not coach football, I coached baseball.
But being a good HC is not just about X's and O's.
It is just as much, if not more, about leadership.

Baker was cleared to play by the medical staff. He was healthy enough to play. Posters have exaggerated how much the injury affected Baker's play. I have provided multiple video breakdowns that his struggles came from other reasons. I don't see Stefanski getting out coached. Not even close. Look at some of videos that were posted this past week that highlighted how we caught Cinci flat footed or off guard and how our scheme exploited theirs.

Yes, you have the right to express your opinion and I won't attack you w/name calling and lies like the Baker fans do when hard evidence is expressed to back up said opinions, but when there is talk of a man being fired from his job, one would think that some solid evidence would be provided to support that cause. Idly wishing ill will on another w/stances that are not fact based seem unfair.

In this video Quincy makes some good points on how the offense will be affected when Watson plays.

It is not only the difference between Watson and Jacoby but the options that open up because of what Watson brings.

The offense has been better than expected. The numbers back that up.

The question that remains is how can the defense build upon their play from the Bengal game?

The DL play in the Bengal game changed because the DL used a different scheme in the front four. They used different stunts and loops to apply pressure. They did not play a straight gap coverage.

This week the NFL matchup show with Greg Cosell went over some of the offensive plays of the Dolphins and Bills. How we defend against them will be key. IMO we have the players. We know the limitations of the DT's. I believe we can to a degree cover for that weakness.

We have to have good play from our safety's. Tackling in the Bengal game was the best so far this year. Perhaps we can build upon that.

I wanted to add one more thing to my last post. I tried to edit, but it said the time was up.

It was mentioned that we become to pass happy when the team is designed to run. For accuracy purposes, we rank 4th in the entire NFL in rushing attempts per game. Furthermore, Stefanski is the one who designed the offense that has a strong running game. Our OL has been upgraded since Berry/Stefanski arrived. Stefanski brought in the run blocking scheme that he learned under the Shanahan/Kubiak tree. He hired Callahan to be the OL coach. He is the one who has designed the offense to hide weaknesses of our QBs and emphasize the run. He has made good use of play action w/both qbs and ran boots to help Baker see the field. Jacoby is not very good on boots, especially to his left. He will call pass plays to offset how teams stack the box in an attempt to stuff our run game. I think the O will open up much more next year w/Watson, but Stefanski is the main reason our running game is so proficient.

The supreme Board liar calling others...liars...classic.


That's exactly what he's asking for. He's stated already that he believes KS is a fine OC, but has not shown above-average HC abilities. He's not pitchforking the guy clamoring for his firing...he's expressing an opinion that you do not agree-with...your claims of accepting anothers' opinion are not backed up by your responses. You claim one thing and display another.


Wait...what? In no way did Jester wish "ill will" on Ski...not even close. Stop the deception/lies when others have a differing opinion.

Hey bone, can you briefly summarize or list a few key points from Quincy's video? Did he mention anything about Watson against man coverage or even odd zone coverages, like Cover 3 and Cover 5?

Quincy's take is not long.

It would take me longer to explain. Just hit the link. It is a difference in skill level. We have gotten into the redzone at a higher rate than other team.

The conversion to TD's is 11th. That should improve because Watson adds skills that create more options that a defense must pay attention to.

Jacoby has been way more than expected but he is not Watson.

IMO going forward it is about the defensive play. The front four against the Bengals and the play behind them was different because of scheme change.

When you loop the DE's from the outside in and scheme movement with delay blitz it forces the O linemen to shift protections while the play is in motion.
That opens gaps to rush from.

Taki moved to the line in a blitz look then dropped to zone. He either stayed in the middle or moved to the flat. He made the open one on one tackles.

With JOK coming back if he shoots one of two run gaps. Then the safety either JJ or Delpit has to key to the other gap without a stutter. You can not square up and then move. You have to see the play and react immediately.

The coordination and tackling from the safety position has been poor. Teams like the Dolphins and Bills play more like the Bengals because their strengths are all about shifts and motion coming from 2x2 looks that can morph to trips plus one. They try to scheme confusion in coverage.

The Browns have to use combination coverages off cover two with boundary on man and zone inside.

The Bengal game should help us prepare for the next two games.

McDaniel comes from both Shanahans. We should be prepared because he uses those concepts. IMO we can score against them. But we must be sound in coverage and that starts with the front six or seven.

JOK can cover and we will need that.

I'll flip the script on you. Since you are giving out your medical opinion, what expertise do you have that qualifies you to do so? How do you know the injury isn't what was effecting his play?

You do mean when and if watson returns to how he played before almost two years away from being a starting NFL QB, right?

From what I have read. DW is in the building and according to Berry is on schedule to return.

Regarding "rust" Quincy gave his take in the video.

I happen to agree with him.

You can check out the link to watch the videos.

j/c...

Just don't set yourself up for disappointment. Thinking an NFL QB whom hasn't taken a snap in almost two years in an actual game will look the same right away as he did before is a leap of faith of epic proportions. You're a long time fan of the game. Are you telling me you haven't seen rusty QB's coming back from missing even far less time that watson has?

Great news. This will certainly help.

Check out where Myles is in both double teams and win rate. Amazing! I feel he is actually underappreciated by some of our fans.

I expect some impact but not radical.

This situation is in many ways unique. Most times it is injury related. When that is the case a lot goes into rehab. It takes most of the time just to go through that.

He banked a lot of reps before the suspension. He has been able to return to the facility. He has had time to stay in shape and study. He will get split reps in practice as his return date moves forward.

I know nothing simulates game speed. And the first couple games will be getting used that hyper speed.

At the same time. Football has been his life. There is a lot of muscle memory. He has been a big time player in college and the pros. I don't think that frame of reference disappears.

I have thought about "the rust argument." Honestly I don't really know. And I don't think any of us can really say how he will react at first.

In any case whatever lag time exists. I don't think it will last long.

j/c:






Getting healthy (hopefully).

Garrett is amazing. The win rate is even more impressive given the shoulder injury from the accident.

Also, Hutchinson getting doubled that much as a rookie is crazy as well. Obviously he isn't winning as many, but teams still respect him a lot to double that much.

Garrett is amazing. The win rate is even more impressive given the shoulder injury from the accident.

Also, Hutchinson getting doubled that much as a rookie is crazy as well. Obviously he isn't winning as many, but teams still respect him a lot to double that much.

re: Ward.

Hopes, prayers and fingers crossed for his sustained health (especially no more concussions), but why do I get the feeling we should be waiting for another extended absence from the field?

Hope I'm wrong.

I don't know why you expect it but I know why I do. After your first concussion you are more prone to another one. After your second concussion you are more prone to your third one. And so on, and so on.

Wow! Garrett and Parsons are clearly the class of the field...

No offense haz been in the RED zone more than the Brownz?

hearing that,.. I put the blame s@uarely on J.Brissett's negativez on pazzing drop backz... that the Browns aren't 4-4 or better.
because ...
3 straight games it was a big negative when the Browns would get in the Red zone and try to throw.

stock neutral seems more depressing than either of the other 2 options. ( up or down)

I agree. The guy is frail, and I don't mean that as a dig. For whatever reason the guy is susceptible to brain injury. Once that starts to happen the odds are it will only get worse. Unless the guy decides to avoid contact at all costs for self preservation purposes, he probably needs to retire from the game.

I love talking football, but there is so much negativity on this board. Positive news is turned into doom and gloom.

This sucks.

Yes, it's a terrible thing that people mention the fact that after your first concussion it's easier to get the second one and so on. Facts that don't blow sunshine up your ass are frowned upon.

Is he a returner?

I liked having Herb on the team. He flashed on ST and I call him Tarlek

This is player news to a degree. I didn't want to start a Myles thread.

Myles Garrett is real good.

VERS. you are the highest on KS on this board.

but you put the stat on the thread that the Browns are #1 in red zone trips but #11 in touchdowns.

That is a negative that has to be addressed. And this is an offensive issue that he is struggling with.

#1 RZP should not lead to #1 TD/RZP but we should be near the top 8.

Also if we are getting into the RZ as proficient as the stat says, then why are we not taking points when analytics show that we should be back in the red zone again.

Ask 888 and that crew.

But I asked you.

Most of us like KS and want him to succeed. But we are in year 3 and we have expectations that are not being met.
Many of us have brought up things that need to be addressed to be a better overall team.

The one thread is "Kevin Stefanski" I may be mistaken but I do not recall anyone calling for his head. Examples were sighted and the worst thing that I saw posted was that he was a slightly below average HC, that has not showed he was anywhere above average as a HC. This has more to do with results than personal agendas.

I think many on the DT.N agree with this sentiment. We want KS to get better. Not get fired.

If I am wrong I do apologize, but we all see the same boards.

Ask a challenging question and the poster who appointed himself most knowledgeable football mind on DT won't like it. You asked a legit question in response to something the person posted, now he's throwing his toys out of his pram and once more naming posters he claims to have on ignore and won't engage with.

There is always room for improvement.

What is important is having a HC that understands that. That has the ability to look in the mirror and say "how can I improve."

It is relative to keep in mind this is his third year. He was dealt a rough hand.

Last year was a mess at quarterback.

This year the defense has been the main problem. Adjustments have been made. The last two games have shown improvement.

The rest of this season will be interesting.

I like KS's approach. IMO he has the right make up for head coach.

You ignored all the positive tweets and concentrated on the only negative. I read your comments on the Stefanski thread. I even responded to you on that thread. You chose not to reply there. We see things differently. That's fine w/me. I am not going to argue about it. I'll discuss, but I won't try to change anyone's mind. Your opinions line up w/888 and that group of posters. Again......that's fine. You can talk w/them about all of Stefanski's faults and ignore the rest. Unlike those guys, I don't need others to agree w/me. Opinions are free.

Concerning Cyril Grayson...he's another "track guy" but he has hands and the ability to actually be a deep threat. He did run the 40 in 4.33 at the LSU Pro Day.

Wonder if Schwartz might be a bit worried..?

My point was made by another poster on that thread.
My issue, and not to start an argument...........

You say KS is a great HC. Your words.

Everyone else except Bone (I believe, but could be wrong) likes Stefanski but would like to see improvement in some key game management situations.
Am I wrong that your point is that he is a great HC and it will be proven when DW gets back?

Just trying to connect the dots because my last post pointed out a specific argument that you dismissed with "talk to mg888 & that crew."

just to be clear. it is not an opinion that KS needs to improve in some key game management situations. That is a fact.

It is opinion that a coach who took a step back in year 2, and is 3-5 in year 3 is an above average head coach.

Just so you understand where I am coming from. You dismiss my facts as opinion, but impose your opinions as facts.

Again if things continue to progress in the manner the Bengals game did, then KS is making the adjustments many on this board would like to see. If he does not, it doesn't matter who the QB is, we will not get to the level we would like to be at.

good day sir.

I am simply disagreeing w/you about when to go for it and when to kick a FG or punt the ball. That is not me saying he is a "great coach." It's me saying that the analytical people that the Browns hire to determine that data are far more trustworthy [in my mind] than some fans on a message board. People are ignoring things to make their argument. They are not mentioning the point differential, the possibility of a missed/blocked kick, the fact that it's better to pin a team inside the 5 yard line instead of kicking off, etc. They are ignoring other analytical analogies, such as the fact that basketball teams shoot a higher percentage from 2 than 3, but continue to shoot up 3s because the analytics say that it helps you win games. We are ignoring that you have to have 3 successful drives and make three successful FGs in order to score more than just one TD and a successful PAT.

Read this article from ESPN on the subject. It might help educate you and others. I suggest clicking on the link so you can see the charts and graphs.


NFL game management cheat sheet: When to punt, go for it or kick field goal on fourth downs, plus 2-point conversion recommendations
Jan 15, 2022
Seth Walder
ESPN Analytics

NFL coaches make tough fourth-down and 2-point conversion decisions on every game day. Quantitative analysis can inform those decisions, both for those making calls on the sideline and fans evaluating their coach's decision-making.

So what do analytics tell us about these choices? Well, it's complicated. Is there a cheat sheet that could help show the correct decisions? No and yes.



There is not a simple answer because the permutations of game-management decisions in football are endless. That's why it's hard! In order to determine the correct decision on a fourth down, ESPN's model -- created by ESPN sports data scientist Brian Burke -- accounts for score, time remaining in the game, distance to sticks, yardline, number of timeouts each team has remaining, each team's chance to win entering the game and the relative strength of the offense and defense in question.

There are far too many possibilities to fit on a single chart to cover them all, but we can still provide a cheat sheet for the most likely scenarios. The following represents a guide to ESPN's decision analysis recommendations based on typical situations. Those are when teams are still in the point maximization phase of the game. Think of it this way: A normal game in the first half or even early in the third quarter, where teams are within two scores of each other.

Note that in any specific game, ESPN's recommendations might deviate from this chart even early because one team entered as a major underdog or there is a severe offense/defense mismatch between the two teams playing. Late in the game, the circumstances can cause recommendations that are significantly different, of course. (Updated on Jan. 16, 2022, with a new 2-point conversion chart.)

Jump to: 2-point conversion decisions


Fourth-down advice
Let's start with what to do on fourth downs. The chart below details the recommended decision (go, field goal attempt or punt) in a typical situation given a specific yard line and distance to first down:


The first thing you might notice when looking at this chart is that there is a lot more "go" area than expected. Indeed, ESPN's model is more aggressive on fourth downs than the average coach. In fact, our model recommends a go on fourth-and-1 in typical situations anywhere on the field. There are a few major reasons for the preference toward go:

1. The value of possession. Coaches have long been too conservative on fourth down, but particularly in the modern era when offenses are so explosive, possession significantly outweighs field position in terms of importance. A fourth-down conversion attempt might or might not fail, but a punt always turns the ball over to the other team.

2. There are two factors for why the model often prefers going for it to a field goal in more situations than most fans would expect:

First, it recognizes opting for a field goal attempt rather than a guaranteed three points. Field goals don't always go in.

Second, while touchdowns are worth seven points and field goals are worth three, both require kicking the ball to the opponent afterward. The possession and field position for the opponent is worth roughly one expected point in favor of the opponent. Once we consider the opposing kickoff, we can think of touchdowns being worth roughly six points and field goals worth roughly two to the game's margin. Thinking about scoring this way shows the relative value of a touchdown compared to a field goal is higher than you might think.

3. Close to the goal-line failures still result in putting opponents in bad starting field position.

How the model works
In comparing a punt vs. a fourth-down attempt, ESPN's model considers the win probability expected given a fourth-down success and fourth-down failure, and weighs those by the expected conversion rate of that fourth down. (The expected conversion rate is determined by league averages in similar circumstances and adjusted based on the strength of the offense and defense.) That produces an overall expected win probability given a fourth-down attempt, which can be compared to an expected win probability given a punt. The higher win probability is the recommendation.

Another way to look at these decisions is to look at what is called the "breakeven rate" of conversion. Given a particular situation and the win probabilities associated with it, the model can produce the minimum conversion rate to justify going for it. Here's an example of what that output looks like on an extreme error from Saints coach Sean Payton this season:


What about factors the model doesn't consider?
There are areas outside the purview of the model that a coach might take into account in his or her decision-making. These factors -- such as weather, injuries and matchup advantages or disadvantages -- are important and can shift a decision. However, it's important that if coaches want to deviate from base rates to make their decisions, they do so in both directions.

That means as often as we hear a coach using matchup factors to justify being more conservative than a model suggests, we ought to hear them using matchup factors to be more aggressive than a model suggests.

The aforementioned breakeven rate can be a guide here and can illustrate the clarity or strength of a recommendation. If the breakeven rate is within a couple of percentage points of the expected conversion rate in either direction, it's fair to grant some leeway to a coach considering additional factors. But if, say, a particular situation has a 40% breakeven rate and a team has a 60% expected conversion rate, it would hard to justify not going for it.


2-point conversion decisions
These decisions can also swing a game, so when should a coach go for two? It's actually not even clear that's the right question. The point expectancy for a PAT (93.7% since 2015) and 2-point conversion (48.1% in same span, but worth double) are so close that we should think of either option as an active choice.

But still, we'll answer the question: When should a coach go for two? We'll break down each score where there's frequently a question. Keep in mind three things:

It's really the combination of score and time remaining (including timeouts!) that determines whether or not a team should go for two. Note the time specifications within each score breakdown.

There are large swaths of score/time combinations in which a reasonable argument for either PAT or going for two can be made, and we will generally ignore those. Scores not included in the write-up below generally fit in this category, with their recommendations either close to the breakeven point or swinging narrowly between PAT and 2-point attempt.

Like with fourth downs, these are typical recommendations. Recommendations in a specific game might be different based on one team entering as, say, a heavy favorite or a mismatch between an offense and defense (that makes a conversion more or less likely).

In addition, because the breakeven point of a 2-point attempt is often right on a knife's edge with the expected conversion rate, small or specific changes in time can also swing a particular recommendation. As a result, the following should be taken as general descriptions of our model's preferences.

When to go for two: Score at time of decision immediately following touchdown

The chart above indicates the conversion probability required to justify going for 2 given score and time remaining in the game. The dotted line is at 48% -- a typical conversion rate on 2-point plays. When the red line is below that dotted line, it is advisable to go for 2.

Down two points: You can either have a chance to be tied or definitely be losing, so which would you prefer? If someone says "don't chase points" in this scenario, be sure to never listen to his/her game management advice. Very early in a game, it's fine to kick a PAT in these spots, but going for two should not be criticized.

Down four points: It's better to go for two here, starting with roughly 8-9 minutes or less in the fourth quarter. Here's how you can think about it: Imagine you're down three points driving late in the fourth quarter, but you knew the result of overtime in advance. It would change how you played. If you knew you were going to win in OT, you could kick a field goal to win. But if you knew you were going to lose, you'd go for it on fourth downs and try to score a touchdown.

Going for two down four points is the equivalent to finding out the result of OT in advance. It's almost a 50/50, just like overtime. And it lets you know if you need to score a field goal or touchdown on the next drive.

Down five points: Either way is acceptable in the first half. Go for two in the second half to attempt to be down only a field goal.

Down eight points: Go for two starting roughly midway through the third quarter. I wrote an entire article on this one but the abridged version is this: If you go for two now and convert, you can kick a PAT on the next touchdown and take the lead. If you go for two now and fail, you can go for two again on the next touchdown and have a chance to tie. It's easier to convert once than to fail twice.

Down nine points: This actually is not so clear cut. Logically, it makes sense to go for two late, though the advantage is smaller than you might think. The idea is to find out now if you are down one score or two scores rather than finding out later, because it can affect your future decision-making. Our win probability model doesn't always see it this way, however. If you were asking me: I'd go for two, but the advantage gained is certainly small.

Down 10 points: This can go either way for much of the game -- for instance, a PAT allows you to take the lead with another field goal and touchdown -- but with roughly 8-9 minutes left in the game, going for two is strongly preferable because there are limited possessions left. At that point, the chance of being down eight -- which gives the possibility of tying through a touchdown and 2-point conversion -- is clearly preferable to being down nine.

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Down 11 points: Go for two starting roughly around the beginning of the fourth quarter. This is the same situation as down four, with a touchdown added on top.

Down 12 points: Consider going for 2 very late in the game; it's essentially the down-9 scenario with a field goal added on top.

Down 13 points: Late in the game, it can be advisable to go for 2 in order to keep open the possibility of a tie via a field goal, touchdown and 2-point conversion.

Down 15 points: Go for two in the second half. This is the down-eight scenario with a touchdown added.

OK, so what about when to go for two when you're winning?

Up one point: In the second half, it is advisable to go for 2 in order to have a chance at being up a field goal.

Up four points: In the final few minutes of the game, it's usually better to go for 2 to create the possibility of a tie if your opponent scores a touchdown and misses the PAT.

Up five points: Go for two in the second half to be up a touchdown.


Up 12 points: It's best to try to go up two touchdowns later in the game.

Here are two more situations in which a coach might go for two:

Down one point: This generally comes up when a team scores late in the fourth quarter and considers going for two to win rather than the PAT to tie. Usually, it still is better to kick the PAT because if the team converts a 2-point play, that will encourage unbridled aggression from the opponent. It is acceptable to go for two when the opponent cannot realistically mount a FG drive on the ensuing possession, like when there are, say, less than 20 seconds remaining.

Up seven points: This is essentially the inverse of the down-nine scenario. And again, logically it makes sense to kick the PAT to not let an opponent know if it is down one score or two. There are times, however, when the model disagrees, so I'd have a hard time faulting a coach for either choice.


https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id...-plus-2-point-conversion-recommendations

is that an answer?

I ignore it because it is smoke and mirrors. just like the statistics you use in your arguments.

Is it true that you believe KS is a great HC?
also. is it Not because of what he has done, but because DW will prove it?

This is what I want to know?

You're looking for a fight. I surrender. You win.

VERS
more like answers.

I just asked you point blank questions and again you won't answer.

That is sad coming from someone with so much knowledge to distribute on this board that you will not answer a simple question.

VERS I do apologize for making a simple discussion uncomfortable.

SORRY

How does this dude skip right over one of the most evident, and somehow least-argued scenarios??

You should ALWAYS go for two when down by 14. It improves your odds of winning by nearly 50%.

Yet hardly anybody does it.

Why? Because of the psychological effect of possibly deflating a team who is finally gaining momentum. Or a coach that may be afraid that a failure may put his ass on the line.

Belichick was the first coach to ever do this (go for two down 14)... with your Cleveland Browns in 1994. Nobody did it for another seven years. I've also watched him wave it off, in a game where his team (Patriots) were painting themselves into corners with constant mistakes; he wasn't going to put them behind the eight-ball with a failure as he seemed happy to just see them string together a drive without self-destructing.


Football isn't played with a slide rule. If it were, we wouldn't even need coaches.

Haha Herb Miller is our yo-yo man this year

You are not really going to post that Stefanski was dealt a rough hand with a straight face, are you? A mess at QB last year when he was the decision maker each and every week to trot out a QB that was dealing with multiple injuries. The defense this year is the main problem yet he's the HC. I knew the excuses would start flying when the Browns struggled but now the posts are about excuses for Stefanski. There's over 200 million per season invested in the players he's responsible for and having his team ready and prepared to perform on the field resulting in victories. If he's incapable of doing that (currently sporting a 23-20 career record) then the Haslam's need to find somebody who can get the job done.

You tell em steve!

There is currently a Stefanski thread where people can trash the man. However, this is a Browns News and Notes thread. Back to the topic.

He's smart enough to know you don't give your opposition bulletin board fodder to motivate them. Belichic is the same.

So the options at quarterback were? What? Let's start the franchise guy from the bench?

Case would have saved the season?

Look around at any team and tell me a head coach who handles both sides of the ball.

Since many head coaches were former coordinators. When they become head coaches do they not handle the side of the ball where they have the most experience?

If that is the case and the side they delegate to has the experience what exactly does the head coach do? If one side continues to fail then usually the coordinator gets replaced. When does that happen? And who fires the guy?

Pick a team. Tell me how that works in each case.

So does the 200 million buy a Super Bowl? I thought that all teams have the same money to work with?

"There is 200 million per season invested in the players he's responsible for and having his team ready and prepared to perform on the field resulting in victories."
What does that mean? $200 million dollars divided by 17 equals $11.76. So, maybe we could just pay that amount each week and bingo. We win.


The Rams are 3-5. Should they fire McVay? How about Tomlin?

Have you ever looked at the records of NFL coaches that have been head coaches for a long time?

Take Andy Reid. Some would say he will go to the Hall. He had a losing seasons of 4-12, 5-11, 6-10.

mmmm.

We ran Belichick out of Cleveland. He did alright with other teams.

So, after going 11-5 in his first season and winning a playoff game on the road against the Steelers. Something we have a habit of doing right?

Then going 8-9 with our franchise quarterbacks in 2021.

And now with nine games left in his third year and starting a career backup. Who is playing the best ball he has ever played under Stefanski.

We should fire Stefanski and run out and hire who?

It is a good thing you are on this Board so you can theorise.

Kiss my azz Vers! I didn't start the talk about Stefanski, it was a response to another's post. If you want to be the board policeman, then lash out your meaningless posts when the infraction occurs - not just when you don't approve of certain individual's opinions like you always do. This board was so much more civilized and entertaining when you were hiding under your rock.

Ignore his trolling Steve, he's nobody important. You do you. He doesn't get that you have that right on the open internet. And keep letting him have it when he puts you on blast. He doesn't like being called out. If you are lucky, he will take his ball and go home.

Not trying to have an argument, just stating an opinion or response to your question.

First Andy Reid: I agree he will most likely go to the HOF. However, after 14 years of being the HC in Philadelphia, Reid was fired in 2012. In 2010, the Eagles were 10-6 and made the playoffs losing their only game. In 2011, the Eagles were 8-8. In 2012, the Eagles finished 4-12 and Reid was fired. His 3-year record with a playoff appearance was 22-27 .468. Reid was fired after 14 years in PHI with 9 playoff appearances and 1 NFC Championship. So YES, I did take a look at the NFL record of NFL coaches that had been coaches for a long time. It has been and will always be about winning at the NFL level. Never has been what you've done but what you are doing - win or bust.

Mike Tomlin is in his 16th year in Pittsburgh and has NEVER had a losing season while making 10 playoff appearances and winning 1 Super Bowl. Even with that stellar record, there are still rumblings about Tomlin being on the hot seat this year due to their poor play on the field.

Here's a special for you, Matt Nagy: Nagy was the HC in Chicago for 4-years. During those 4-years, the Bears made 2 playoff appearances in his 4-year tenure and only had 1 losing season. Nagy's career regular season record in Chicago was 34-31 .523 which is just about the same as Stefanski is currently sporting and could be clearly stated that he never had a single QB the caliber of even Brissett. On the surface, everyone here would say that Stefanski is a much better HC than Nagy. Their records tell quite a different story, and he had 2 different young inexperienced QB's he had to train in Fields and Trubisky.

As far as HC's handling both sides of the ball, every one of the HC's handles both sides of the ball except Stefanski apparently. I have never heard of a single HC in the NFL that said or implied that they were not responsible for both sides of the ball and special teams too. They have assistants and coordinators, but the ultimate responsibility lies with the HC - except in Cleveland it would appear. The HC selects his staff, and they all work for him.

Yes head coaches bear the responsibility but they do not handle both sides of the ball.

It is not possible in today's game. So coordinators bear the responsibility and pay the price. It happens every year.

Joe Woods came to the team as the DC. He had a decent background. You don't always get the options to hire the very best guys.

Woods has been given a chance. Two years and 8 games. The results have been mixed. Strange but in 2020 he had poor talent and we had a better record.
Last year more investments were made in defense the results were mixed. At times they played well and at other times not so well.

This season most thought going into the third year in the same system with better players. The defense would be the strength of the team.

It did not work out that way. We blew leads in ugly fashion. People were calling for his head. The last two games the defense has improved.

Nine games remain. Woods will be closely evaluated as will Priefer. At the end of this year there maybe changes.

Stefanski has done well with the offense. Statements like "he doesn't prioritize winning are complete bs."

There is no way Stefanski is on even a warm seat.

Next season we will be starting a true franchise playing quarterback. We may have some changes in coaches and or coordinators.

Next year will be a good year to really look at Stefanski. He will have three years under his belt and if he feels a change needs to happen with Woods. Then the guy he picks should be an improvement.

I am not one who believes in churn at head coach unless in a case like Freddie. Where it was clear he was over his head.

Kevin Stefanski IMO has done a good job in his time so far. I understand that new head coaches have a learning curve. And seasons are not always fair.

In addition for most teams (the Brown included) the head coach does not make up the roster. Nor can he control injuries. You can only control what you can.
KS can not make bad DT good. He has to play what he has.

The guys who have lasted as head coaches have all experienced many ups and downs. Owners who understand that and have keep them know the importance of continuity when they know who the man really is.

The three words after that

are probably like this

"Not for long"

Regarding Browns News and Notes and not Personality Place or Stefanski sucks......there is this. BTW.....I have steve on ignore, so I don't know what that was all about.


Browns Injury Report: Cleveland getting healthier as Dolphins near
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Cory Kinnan
November 10, 2022 7:20 pm ET

Coming off of the bye week, the Cleveland Browns are getting healthier by the day. Still four out of practice, and only one was not spotted on the field.

Trending in the right direction as we creep closer to Sunday, all of right tackle Jack Conklin, a vastly improved tight end David Njoku, and linebacker Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah were on the bikes. Rookie defensive tackle Perrion Winfrey was the only player who was not at practice, missing his second practice in a row with an illness.

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/202...medium=trueanthem&utm_source=twitter

analytics is making the Browns unwatchable.

the defense was better when J.O.K, and DZ, Ward, had to not play.

I think we have a good chance at winning. I respect them but not fearing them. Myles is already in tia’s head. Guaranteed.

I'd say Schwantz has been sweating it out for a while now, Garyson or not.

He would be fine if we could just give him the Clifford Franklin treatment.

Tillery is probably worth a look

I think we really need him this week. Miami is going to score. We'll need to put points up and sustain drives. Njoku helps w/that.

Browns land 3 on PFF's midseason All-Pro Team


Cory Kinnan
November 11, 2022 9:45 am ET

We are at the midway point of the 2022 season, and publications are beginning to release midseason awards based on performances in the first half of the season. We did it here at Browns Wire, and now PFF has released their midseason All-Pro team as well. And the Cleveland Browns landed three players on their First Team All-Pro squad at this point in the season.

The three players on the list are entirely predictable too as they have been mainstays on the Browns for half of a decade. Let’s take a look at those players, what PFF said about them, and where they stack up against their colleagues around the NFL.



RB Nick Chubb



The best running back on the planet according to Tennessee Titans Derrick Henry, Nick Chubb lands as the First-Team running back on PFF’s list as well. Already at double-digit touchdowns and just 29 yards behind Henry for the league lead in yards, Chubb is going to hit career-high marks across the board.

On pace for new marks in carries, yards, and touchdowns, Chubb has been the catalyst for the Cleveland offense. Do not expect that to slow down as the Browns face a crucial three-game span up next on their schedule. Chubb currently sits with a 91.1 PFF grade.


DE Myles Garrett


Myles Garrett is PFF’s highest-graded player in the entire NFL at this point in the season. And fans of this football team have the audacity week in and week out to question whether or not he is making an impact on the field for the Browns.

In just seven games, Garrett has racked up 7.5 sacks, is back in the race for Defensive Player of the Year, and is single-handily carrying a defensive line otherwise full of tree stumps. He sits with a PFF grade of 94.4 through the midway point of the season.

They will need another excellent showing from Garrett to slow down the potent offense of the Miami Dolphins.


OG Joel Bitonio


Garrett is not the only highest-graded player according to PFF. Guard Joel Bitonio is also PFF’s highest-graded offensive player in the NFL as well, landing him on their First-Team All-Pro list. Tied with long snapper Charley Hughlett for the longest-tenured member of the Browns, Bitonio has been a consistent threat every single year of his NFL career.

This season has been more of the same for Bitonio, grading out with an elite 91.3 grade according to PFF. With Wyatt Teller potentially returning to the field this week, the Browns may get their guard-ians back in full force against the Dolphins this week.


https://brownswire.usatoday.com/lis...medium=trueanthem&utm_source=twitter

At this point I think you may have more posters on ignore than not. Of course you must list and mention all of them like anyone gives a damn. But then that's probably the best way to avoid the actual issues as to why this team is 3-5. And then you claim it's everyone else who has an agenda.

All this talent and yet we sit at 3-5.

Njoku out

Nobody said that HC's handle both sides of the ball. What has been said is that Stefanski has the responsibility for both sides of the ball because he is the HC. If the defense isn't performing up to par, then it is Stefanski's job to address that issue, period. Whether that's firing the DC, making asst coaching changes, or getting his hands dirty and getting in there to address what is wrong it is his job. In reality, it doesn't mean a damn thing for the Browns if they have the #1 offense in the league with Stefanski calling the plays if the defense for the team he's the head coach of is ranked 31st and you're losing games. Every game the Browns defense performs poorly is a direct reflection on Stefanski because it's been going on now for 3-years and as the HC of the Cleveland Browns he's done nothing to correct the problem.

As far as the selection process, nobody told Stefanski he had to take Woods as his DC. Stefanski made that decision so again, he's responsible for the performance of Woods in that role. It's an excuse driven conspiracy to attempt to praise Stefanski on what's happening on the offensive side of the ball (which hasn't been great by any means) yet give him a pass on the poor playing defensive side of the ball because Woods is the DC. IMHO, either Stefanski is the HC or he's just a glorified OC posing as a HC. Guess what, he has complete control but has addressed nothing to this point so he's just a glorified OC. If that's the case, then the Browns need to make a change and hire a real HC that will manage all aspects of the team and take responsibility for being the HC.

Njoku and JOK ruled out this week against the Dolphins.

You are looking at this entirely the wrong way.

What has happened over KS's time and what actually took place on both sides of the ball.

Try to understand what takes place when a new head coach is hired. What has to happen to put a coaching staff into place.

What takes place on a daily basis and how things are done. What takes place week to week and goes on behind the scenes.

You go off like a car's window wipers after every game. Like after a game it is time to clean house.

It is your humble opinion. It is just wrong.

We'll see..............

Here is what we know.

Haslam is the owner and his GM is Berry. To my knowledge, I have not heard a thing that would indicate that they are dissatisfied with KS.

But I don't for sure. Nor, do not claim any inside information. Berry when asked replied they feel the same as when KS was hired.

IMO Haslam has no desire to hire another head coach. Up until KS it has been a disaster and it has reflected poorly on him.

Watson will the starting quarterback in three weeks. He came to Cleveland with Stefanski as the head coach. They went through all of pre-season together.

IMO part of the process involved in getting Watson was to have him coached by Stefanski. It would seem illogical to change anything.

I have no crystal ball. But I do envision a collapse over the next nine games.

So, it makes sense to think that Stefanski will be the head coach next year. Depending on what happens there could be changes with the staff.

Where will the argument be when
ya When Watson plays not great, not pretty good, but very badly.

I see analytics brought up quite a bit by posters, some favorably and other such as yourself, with obvious disdain. The most I can tell from what I have read concerning the process, it is nothing new. It seems to me, one of the first NFL teams to really use it for scouting and gameplans/play calling were the Cowboys, going back to the 1970s and maybe even the 1960s.

I remember them being one of the first to utilize a computer and some sportswriters and opposing front offices at the time ridiculing them with comments along the lines of "there is no place in football for a computer".

Analytics as I understand it is just a collection of data regarding all aspects of players and game planning. I could be wrong in my perception but the Cowboys and other teams when I was a kid did the same thing but seemed to refer to the data as "tendencies".

Paul Brown in the 50's used data to fuel much of his decision making.

I am sure it happened long before that. I'd bet that people were putting a stopwatch to Red Grange back in the 20's....the 1920's since some around here were probably born in this century.

I need to proof read better. damn

"But I don't know for sure."

"But I do Not envision a collapse."

"Moneyball" and what Billy Beane and Peter Brand did just elevated the use of data to a new level and in new and more granular ways. It's ben done in football for a long time regardless of what people want to call it and it is simply part of the process. Like all things in life - a pretty good rule is "all things in moderation" ... i think when it comes to the Browns and Analytics the concern some have is that some stats are being over valued. Two most obvious examples would be SPARQ scores to value drafted players - we have several examples of 3rd and 4th round picks taken because of their explosive athletic ability but they aren't good at the other parts of what's needed to be a successful football player (Schwartz). Another example - despite posters trying to tell us otherwise - is the continued high frequency of going for it on 4th downs because that's what the analytics says is the "right call" ... in 2020 and 2021 we went for it on 4th downs a lot ... but we were successful less than 42% of the time both years. If the NFL average is (about) 65% - and our team is successful only 42% of the time we shouldn't be going for it so frequently.

Every professional sport team in the world uses analytics and will continue to do so forever.

Good post 88.

Depo was brought to Cleveland because of his background. He has remained on staff and is still influential.

Balance and moderation is important. Bell was kind of a anti-Schwartz pick.

4th downs etc. there is plenty of data on down and distance. My background comes from baseball. So, I am very familiar with how "Moneyball" changed baseball.

At the same time I also believe in "knowledge and experience based intuition. "Commonly called gut feeling."

Momentum is real and it does not have any data frame of reference.

There are probably not many posters who remember Johnny Unitas. Through no fault of your own you missed a great player and football mind.

Unitas called his own game. At times he would call a play knowing the play. Wanting his team to believe in the play when he called it. And then knowing he was going to do something else. Like run the ball himself. He was the ultimate team leader.

He had this sixth sense about momentum and feel for the game. He knew intuitively how to keep a defense off balance.

In baseball it is like a pitcher throwing breaking balls in fastball counts. Disrupt timing.

There is a place for data and analytics. There is also a place for knowledge based intuition.

j/c...

Thanks for the memories!

Showed up and was shown out the door.

We don't need any DTs.

Is there an echo in here?

WHAT WHAT WHAT WHAt WHAt WHat WHat What What whaaaaa t whaaaa t Whaaa t whaa t


MAYBE Maybe Maybeeeee maybeeee mayee b eeee

Oops!

Just joking. I appreciate all the information you provide.

At this point we’ll take literally any DT with a chance to do anything

Not much info on this guy, but there is this college scouting report. Seems to me that he is the exact opposite of what is required from a 4-2-5 DT.


NFL Draft Profile: Ben Stille, Defensive Tackle, Nebraska Cornhuskers


Pos: DT
Ht: 6036
Wt: 296
Hand: 948
Arm: 3218
Wing: 7928
40:
Vertical:
Broad:
3 Cone:
Bench:
Shuttle:
DOB: 11/12/1997
Hometown: Ashland , NE
High School: Ashland-Greenwood

Ben Stille
Nebraska Cornhuskers
One Liners
Versatile defensive lineman with below average, good quickness and poor strength.

Pros
Versatile defensive lineman in an odd front who aligns anywhere from nose tackle to five-technique. Stille times the snap and is quick off the ball, allowing him to penetrate gaps. His timing and hand placement as a pass rusher is very good. Stille has good balance when he keeps his pads low. Against wide zone runs, he uses his get-off to shoot gaps. His push-pull move punishes leaning blockers and allows him to shed. Stille possesses good recognition skills and bats passes by putting hands into throwing lanes.


Cons
Lacking size, length and strength, Stille gets displaced vertically in the run game and driven off the ball by combo blocks. He is unable to absorb body blows, getting finished by them. Sille is unable to generate knockback and often sees his power rushes stall. His hands are not violent, making him unable to beat the punch of blockers decisively. He does not deconstruct from latching blockers who often out reach him. His rip move is poor. Stille tackles very inconsistently as he is unable to wrap up ball carriers.


https://www.si.com/nfl/draft/news/benstille

That doesn't make sense. Sounds like BS to me. Teams expressed interest in trading but now the Chargers opt to cut the guy?

That GM should be fired is there is any truth to that.

Might as well over the next several weeks. Somebody out there has a DT on their practice squad who might turn in to a player.

Indeed they will!

I wonder if Milk has me on ignore? LOL

j/c:

Oops again! My bad.

This screams another light guy that will get swallowed up by blockers in the run game. No lessons learned.

[urlhttps://www.si.com/nfl/draft/news/benstille[/url]


I mentioned elsewhere we might be looking to go to a 3-4 type front once Woods moves on.

Agreed.

We'll need an even bigger NT if we go to 3-4 than we do w/the 4-2-5.

Woods is almost certainly gone and I know that fans/sports talk show hosts love firing coaches, but I think it sucks. Gotta give the new guy[s] time to get "their players." Pfftttt...

j/c...

The Chargers took our fat guy.

I have no idea how good/bad that dude is, but I think he fit the mold of the 4-2-5 NT more than our other guys.

PFF Grades after 10 weeks of play and 9 games. Interesting items of note:
A) Chubb, Bitonio, and Garrett continue with their dominance of their positions.
B) Browns OT's are in a free fall with both currently performing at a disappointing PFF Backup Level.
C) Ward continues to disappoint with a PFF Grade of 44.5 and ranking of 109th out of 115 CB's ranked.
D) 18 of the Browns 29 defensive players are performing at a Replaceable Grade Level - 62.1%.

PFF GRADES THROUGH 9 Games and 10-weeks

TOTAL OFFENSIVE GRADES:
___________________________________1 player currently performing at Elite Level 90-100
Chubb - RB - 90.6 - 2nd of 63 - Georgia - 2018
___________________________________1 player currently performing at Pro Bowl Level 89-85
Bitonio - G - 89.3 - 1st of 82 - Nevada - 2014
___________________________________6 players performing at Starter Level 84-70
Teller - G - 84.5 - 4th of 82 - Virginia Tech - 2018
Njoku - TE - 83.5 - 3rd of 73 - Miami, FL - 2017
Pocic - C - 83.0 - 2nd of 37 - LSU - 2017
Brissett - QB - 77.1 - 11th of 39 - NC State - 2016
Cooper - WR - 74.6 - 24th of 117 - Alabama - 2016
Froholdt - G - 71.9 - 13th of 82 - Arkansas - 2019
___________________________________11 players currently performing at Backup Level 69-60
DPJ - WR - 68.6 - 46th of 117 - Michigan - 2020
Conklin - OT - 67.7 - 36th of 80 - Michigan St - 2016
Johnson - RB - 65.9 - NR - South Florida - 2019
Wills - OT - 65.3 - 45th of 80 - Alabama - 2020
Forbes - OG - 64.7 - NR - SE Missouri St - 2019
Hunt - RB - 63.0 - 51st of 63 - Toledo - 2017
Hudson - OT - 62.5 - 55th of 80 - Cincinnati - 2021
York - K - 62.3 - 28th of 42 - LSU - 2022
Dunn - OT - 61.1 - NR - Maryland - 2017
Forristall - TE - 60.1 - NR - Alabama - 2021
Haeg - OT - 60.0 - NR - N Dakota St - 2016
___________________________________8 players currently performing at Replaceable Level 59-0
Brown - TE - 59.2 - 41st of 73 - Oregon - 2017
Woods II - WR - 56.7 - NR - Oklahoma - 2022
Felton - WR - 56.1 - NR - UCLA - 2021
Bell - WR - 55.9 - 103rd of 117 - Purdue - 2022
Bryant - TE - 54.7 - 59th of 73 - Florida Atlantic - 2020
Schwartz - WR - 49.5 - NR - Auburn - 2021
James - TE - 42.2 - NR - Penn St - 2015
Rogers - WR - 00.0 - NR - Grambling St - 2016

TOTAL DEFENSIVE GRADE
___________________________________1 player currently performing at Elite Level 90-100
Garrett - Edge - 92.6 - 1st of 119 - Texas A&M - 2017
___________________________________0 players currently performing at Pro Bowl Level 89-85
___________________________________6 players currently performing at Starter Level 84-70
Walker - LB - 82.7 - NR (Injured, out for season) - Northwestern - 2017
Stille - DT - 76.1 - NR - Nebraska - 2022
Bojorquez - P - 73.7 - 10th of 32 - New Mexico - 2018
Clowney - Edge - 73.2 - 35th of 119 - South Carolina - 2014
Emerson - CB - 73.2 - 22nd of 115 - Mississippi St - 2022
Takitaki - LB - 72.6 - 18th of 82 - BYU - 2019
___________________________________4 players currently performing at Backup Level 69-60
JOK - LB - 69.3 - 24th of 82 - Notre Dame - 2021
D. Bell - S - 64.5 - NR - West Florida Argonauts - 2022
Kunaszyk - LB - 63.1 - NR - California - 2019
Newsome - CB - 62.1 - 58th of 115 - Northwestern - 2021

___________________________________18 players currently performing Replaceable Level 59-0
Delpit - S - 59.9 - 58th of 85 - LSU - 2020
Johnson - S - 58.3 - 63rd of 85 - Boston Coll - 2017
Thomas - Edge - 58.1 - NR - Oklahoma - 2022
Williams - CB - 56.8 - NR - LSU - 2019
Rochell - Edge - 52.9 - NR - Notre Dame - 2017 (Waived 11/12)
Perry - DT - 52.4 - NR - Illinois - 2022 (Waived 11/14)
Green - CB - 51.2 - NR - Oklahoma St - 2020
Bryan - DT - 48.3 - 92nd of 122 - Florida - 2018
Winfrey - DT - 45.6 - NR - Oklahoma - 2022
Fields -- LB - 45.4 - NR - West Virginia - 2021
Ward - CB - 44.5 - 109th of 115 - Ohio St - 2018
Harrison - S - 43.0 - NR - Alabama - 2018
Winovich - Edge - 42.4 - NR - Michigan - 2019
Wright - Edge - 40.3 - 117th of 119 - UAB - 2022
Phillips - LB - 36.7 - 78th of 82 (injured, out for season) - LSU - 2020
Jones - LB - 36.3 - NR - LSU - 2016
Elliott - DT - 34.3 - 114th of 122 - Missouri - 2020
Togiai - DT - 30.3 - 120th of 122 - Ohio St - 2021

NR = Not Ranked due to not having snap minimum

SCALE:
100 - 90 = Elite level of play
85-89 = Pro Bowl level of play
84-70 = Starter level of play
69-60 = Backup level of play
59-0 = Replaceable level of play

Wrong forum

The Chargers cut a former 2019 1st Rdr that 8-or-so teams tried to claim...and then they go and snatch a DT from OUR Practice Squad. Last I read on another site, Woods claimed that Davison wasn't ready yet. What a train wreck.

Who is in charge here?

It seems odd that the Chargers cut Tillery, the former 1st round pick, and 8 teams put in a claim for him and then the Chargers grabbed a guy anyone could have claimed off of our PS. It's either Tillery is a huge troublemaker or the Chargers are dumb. Maybe both are true.

Our DTs are about the worst of the worst, especially Togiai who as been all but the worst in the entire league all season. Pathetic.

Honestly, the entire fiasco at DT is hard to understand.

We sign Taven Bryan a 6'5" 290 athletic guy who is a 3 technique.

Jordan Elliott is 6'4" 300 guy. This is his third year. He has showed little. He beefed up and was hyped as a ready player at DT.

Tommy Togiai is 6'2" 296 a mid draft pick

Then they drafted Perrion Winfrey 6'4" 290 3 tech with issues.

Two guys who are given the starting job Bryan and Elliott and two unproven young backups.

How are these four guys suppose to hold down the middle and provide gap integrity?

I can understand wanting to develop guys. But trying to develop these four at the same time?

How about two vets in rotation with two guys you feel confident will develop.

The four we have is like playing the lottery. Then sitting back and counting on it.

I like Berry but to me this was a bad plan for DT. When it can be seen as a liability to exploit.

My sentiments exactly.

As suspected, our OTs stink right now

Did you mean DTs? Our OTs had one bad game. Otherwise, they have been pretty good.

I agree. I think all GM's have some weakness when building a team....or at least many. For whatever reason DT seems to be a position where we hope to get by on the cheap. I don't know if we just don't think the position is all that skilled and the feeling is we can get by with nearly anybody at the position or we just don't do a good job of evaluating what is needed at the position.

Winfrey was a guy who was hyped and had some decent tape but it is apparent the guy has mental issues which somehow should have been identified in the scouting process.

So, you have to ask yourself: How can a guy be in the league for 7-years split between 3 teams and now on a team's practice squad with the worst DT's in the entire NFL and the DC makes a statement that that the guy's not ready yet? Did the Browns have him stashed on the PC because he had "Potential?" If you have the worst DT's in the NFL on your roster, what the heck are you doing with a 7-year vet DT sitting on your PS? Don't know if Davison was any good or not but when you have the worst DT's in the league on your game day roster and another team swoops in and takes a DT from your PS - you have some serious issues going on with your team.

He was a wildcard at best. I think it's hard to identify in scouting how a player translates when handed a 1M signing bonus and a 5M contract.

Draft picks are hit and miss as well as everything in between. The lower the round typically the closer to miss.

The way I look at defensive tackle is in the draft look for profiles to fit the scheme. Then when drafting depending on the round try to understand how long before he can start.

Have a few in the pipeline and monitor them. In the meantime augment with vets that fit the budget on short term deals.

I understand developing guys can take time up to three years. After that they are either in your plans or you move on from them.

IMO you have to look at the defensive front as a unit. How will they work as a unit?

So, you have Myles, Alex Wright looks to be the future at the other DE.

Who will fit with our two DE's starters? How do you want them to play? What profile should they fit?

The DC, HC, and GM have to be on the same page. This is how the front four should look and play. This is how the players compliment each other.
These are the types stunts etc. we plan to use. These are the roles of each player in the unit.

As I look at the current front four and depth chart. I am confused. How is this a unit?

I could not find anywhere else to put this, so I put here because we run the ball a lot. A lot of football shows are filled w/fluff, but this was actually an educational and enlightening discussion on the continued evolution of NFL offenses and defenses. No hot takes. No controversy. Just football talk w/good data to back up their claims.

Maybe it is just me. Scouting is more than watching tape and going to a game or practice. Once you start to identify players you also need to talk to coaches, players. For top type picks I'd even follow them around....see where they go, who they hang with, how they act.

All of that is important.

I agree 100. He was an early round prospect with 1st round hype. Most thought he would be gone by the late second at the latest. We knew 'above the shoulders' was a crapshoot, we gambled and (seemingly) lost. I'm not going to complain. It was a good stab at upside in the 4th round.

My comment is merely stating that when there are questions with attitude, off-field issues, it's hard to forecast how real money may play a role.

Let's be honest, we've had problems working with players that have off-the-field issues, I think we handle them with too much leniency and use 'kid hands'. We've also set precedent with allowing players to basically force their way out of Cleveland and allow them to flex their strong personalities. These are two areas where I feel Berry needs to grow... and the attitude needs to follow downline through the staff.

j'c:

Interesting stat on DPJ:

I haven't read Perrion Winfrey's name in the police blotter and there are no reports of him flipping his car 10 times to avoid an imaginary deer...just what has he done to be benched for the entire 2022 season...???

Why do the Browns have to be the "Goody Two Shoes" of the NFL..?

Put Perrion on the field..in practice and in the games and let him burn off some of that excess piss and vinegar he seems to have trouble getting out of his system by letting him bust his butt on the field..!

Every roster has a few who have trouble conforming to the NFL...maybe the Browns should challenge him to produce on the field...just a thought..!!

This is what happens on a team devoid of leadership.

Thanks for posting that Vers.

For the most part I have given up on tv talk because it has turned into a mic fight to say something clever.

That discussion had substance.

In a way it explains why the Browns are playing a 4-2-5. Athletes in space. Linebackers are no longer 255 trained in stack and shed.

They have to cover in order to stay on the field. That is why I was hyped on JOK because he is a new wave player.

Why are all of our DT's 3 tech's? Because they wanted penetration rather than gap integrity. What happened? McDaniels ran it right up the gut.

I have been watching pro football since 1960. I have seen all the changes. Every offensive and defensive adjustments to trends.

There really is nothing new. Everything just gets recycled. I knew the run game would come back.

When I figured out what Woods vision was. I agreed because the pass was becoming dominate. The run game was stagnant.

When Stefanski was hired. I saw his background. I was in favor of the Shanahan scheme. I believe in the WZB scheme and play action.

Woods has not adjusted because he can't. The roster can not adjust right now.

I want to run a true 4-3. The only difference is I want the OLB's to be like JOK. I want the mike to be able to stack and shed. I want big agile DT's.

Guys who can plug but can also push the pocket.

I figured that not many would watch that video, but I also thought you would be one of the very few to check it out. Some like to learn. Others not so much. I love discussions like that one. It's pure football. I found it interesting that so many defenses were designed to slow down the Shannahan/Kubiak scheme and that now Shanny is at the forefront of introducing more "power" running plays. We should be in good shape w/the two guards we have. It is also an absolute must that we get better in the middle of our defense. This is not going to take over the league, but it's another wrinkle that defenses will once again have to game plan for.

Very, very good video. I've watched it twice to absorb it all. Thanks for posting.

Some near-shocking statistics from this season...

League wide average per reception ~ 11.0 Lowest since 1933

League wide average per rushing attempt ~ 4.5 Highest in NFL history

League wide scoring average 21.6 points ~ Lowest since 2008



Something that occurred to me... With some of these trends, the NCAA becomes the tail that wags the dog (NFL).

It's one thing when certain coaches 'copy' things going on in the NCAA; it's quite another when trends at that level influence the recruiting process to the point to where it changes the type of athlete available to be drafted to the next level. I won't go into detail, it's all in the must-watch video.


Marcus Spears and Mina Kimes (pigskin genius) do a great job explaining it all. The short of it all is this: in a race to find more speed and athletic players at every level of the defense, most of these players have become more long and rangy; less girth, size and brawn. Space-eaters are gone, defensive linemen are 30-50lbs lighter. These dudes are not built to be punched in the face thirty times per game.

The tail wags the dog, but eventually the dog shakes it off. "Now that we have all these DLs and LBs that are so light in the trousers, let's punch them in the mouth".

Defenses have way more answers for coverage, but let's see if that nickel-back wants to try to tackle Nick Chubb twelve times. Defensive physicality is a shell of what it was ten years ago.

Power and counter runs (and their success rate) are through the roof the last two seasons.

Marcus Spears on powers and counters in his playing days -- "We were built to play powers and counters; if you could not stop them, you are going to lose the game!"


So now we have offenses reacting to how defenses reacted to how offenses reacted. The constant cat and mouse game persists, but really -- the more things change, the more they stay the same. As an offense, if you can go out and win in the trenches, out-physical the opponent, and run the ball; you're going to win more often than you lose. If you don't have answers for that on defense?? You'll likely have some long Sunday afternoons.

This is exactly what we're seeing with the Browns defense and the way it's constructed right now.

j/c...

Yikes.

I like Myles, but why in the hell would he say that? He's made other comments that were similar in nature. Keep it behind closed doors. Jesus!

I agree.





As much as Wood's comments made me laugh in disgust, Myles is way off base imo. It's either way too much information or a direct dig at the coaches and staff, take your pick. That said, he has a tendency to be very blunt and I'm sure what he's saying is 100% true.

But then again, let's look back a month....




So either we are waaay too easy, the Dolphins staff is next level, or it's the combination of the two that led to a prolific ass-whoopin'.

#themorethingschange...

Just thinking out loud.

IMO defenses have to be unpredictable. I don't think you can line up pre-snap and away you go. You have to create confusion.

It is not just the quarterback who needs to have doubt. Typically the center is making calls for blocking assignments. There are players at every position making reads. Every player has an assignment and all are looking for tells.

How you play on defense is about how you match-up in personnel as well

.This week it was revealing to listen to the comments of Joe Woods and Myles. In essence both said they were exploited by the Dolphins. Credit to McDaniels and his staff. At the same time Woods did nothing to counter. When a team on offense does not punt all game. You are a failure.

It was like almost every offensive play was successful. In the Woods thread I went into how I believe we got to this place. And there is blame to go around.

At the same time over the last three years the defense under Woods as had way to many melt downs and really piss poor overall terrible games.

Woods is going to get fired. However, laying so much of the blame on him is a fool's errand. There are bigger problems than our defensive scheme. Bank it.

In the Woods thread I made it clear it is not all on him.

I wasn't calling you out or anything. You are one of the few guys I can read w/interest because you talk football and not agenda. Just saying that when I watch the breakdowns on tape and even during games.......I see a lot more issues w/player error or just plain suckiness. Everyone knows about our DTs, but Delpit absolutely sucks in coverage. JOK sucks at tackling and doesn't get deep enough drops. We don't have one safety who is good in coverage. Our LBers are substandard. The entitlement thing looks real to me. And when I say entitlement........I am not talking about how so many young players seem entitled in the league. Instead, I am talking about they were handed their jobs w/out earning them. That's on the GM.

I think in the case of the DT's. It was completely misjudged. That is on Berry but also Stefanski and Woods.

Berry believes in collaboration. I think it is part of the culture they have tried to foster.

I disagree about JOK. I have seen him make plenty of open field tackles. At times he will shoot a gap and miss. But he does not miss in the flat one on one.

I agree the safety play has been poor. Although I have seen improvement from Delpit tackling.

The problem I see is inconsistent plans on how to defense different teams. Players get beat. There is a lot of talent in the league.

Great offenses are going to score. But you can not go an entire game like the Dolphins and get gashed up the middle. We gave up 198 yards to nobodies.

Damn put more guys in the box. If you know the weakness is at tackle. Have a plan to compensate.

The players we have on defense are not as bad as the results have been. Hell in 2020 we had a terrible secondary and played better.

Changes needed in defense include both coaches and players.

All these comments on Woods and the defense...and things Myles said...are an indictment on Stefanski not Woods.

He is supposed to be leading a team. He's supposed to prioritize winning. He prioritizes calling plays. His players don't play for him. He is one of the worst head coaches in the league who just wasted another year of players careers and our fandom.

I can't wait until he is gone. He is exactly what this team doesn't need.

If you were a real man, you'd put that in your sig. j/s

Could you imagine Stefanski's record without Chubb?

He's just the worst of the worst.

4-3 so far...

I'll add that Browns fans are so used to losing that they'll root for a loser.

Someone, anyone, tell me what Stefanski did to earn the Browns head coaching job and what he has done to retain it. If the answers are all about the offense, you haven't answered the question.

Come on fans, demand more. Don't settle for mediocrity and incompetence because he caught lightning in a bottle one season. Because he has a super star RB that makes him look like a .500 coach instead of the below .500 coach he is.

Trust your eyes. Demand more.

If the Browns decide to hang on to this bum, imagine what Watson will be saying when he realizes he won't be leading the league in passing with Stefanski and they start losing. People think Watson was bad in Houston - wait until he's throwing 20-30% less than he's normally used to throwing and still losing. The whole staff will get wacked mid-season.

Everyone will get fired because we have Chubb and Hunt?

You guys are off the rails.

I believe the 'logic' behind the argument is that we will be losing, Watson won't be happy to be losing and he will be even less happy that (because of the KS scheme) his passing and TD stats etc will be low. Ergo he will force a change at HC. To posts by Pit recently - Stefanski's tenure at CLE will depend largely on how happy Watson is.

The two fundamentals to this thought process [1] We will continue to lose because KS is not a great head coach no matter how good he is as an OC [2] We will continue to be a run heavy team.

I think Watson **should** be a big enough difference maker that we win and go to the playoffs no matter what in 2023. I think Stefanksi has shown a repeated tendency to get pass happy rather than run happy when we struggle. So while I doubt Watson has 5000 yards or 45+ TDs with KS, I think we might see much more passing. Making a deep play off push will depend on much more.

I believe that sigs should be more subtle and nuanced than that.

Don't worry. watson will have six games to play for Stefanski as HC this season. At seasons end I'm sure he will decide if he wants to work with Stefanski moving forward and will let Haslam know whether he should keep Stefanski or not.

I think you are probably right. Watson will be the one to decide at season's end if stefanski is here in 2023 or not.

Actually, Stefanski will decide if he is here next year or not. And he's not making a very good case for himself.

The Browns might, MIGHT, get to five wins. The team has quit, and there is nothing to play for. That falls squarely on the shoulders of Stefanski, who has gotten worse every year and appears to be clueless on how to lead a team.

The absolute worst thing the organization can do for Stefanski is dismiss his incompetence and blame it all on Woods. Dismissing and shifting accountability is a huge problem with this organization as is babying players like Garrett who develop a sense of entitlement and take no responsibility for anything.

Stefanski has made his own bed. I know what I would do. I would not trust the franchise with him moving forward.

Who do you replace him with? You know what you would do... the first part which is getting rid of KS ... what about the more important part?

I don't think you move forward with a guy who isn't the answer just because you haven't found his replacement yet. You go through the process. A couple of names I like are Flores and Demeco Ryans. We preach tough, smart, accountable...which is laughable. I would like to go the tough coach route for once. I think both of those guys fit the bill.

Hopefully back channels are being exercised right now to sort some of this out.

Let me ask you this ... based on what you've seen over the 2.5 years so far, do you feel comfortable trusting this franchise to Stefanski just because he hasn't had a chance to work with Watson yet? That is nuts to me.

Do you trust this franchise to actually find and hire a capable NFL HC to replace Stefanski? Before you answer that I request you look at their track record.

No. That's why we'll trust Watson to find him.

I have lost faith in KS.

I will wait till the end of the season before making a 'decision' (not that my decision has any impact, just an opinion). But I agree - due diligence would be to have 2 or 3 targets identified. From what I know of Flores - I could get behind that. He was let go from Miami because he wouldn't lose as he was told to! But I don't know who is viable and who would be good.

It will be a tough job but somebody has to to do it.

The Browns are probably doomed as long as the Haslams are the owners. And their love affair with Depo is damaging to the organization. Depo may depart at some point, but obviously the Haslams aren't going anywhere. As a matter of fact they are probably prepping the idiot son-in-law to take over when they step away.

Haslam's love affair with Depo is bad for the organization. The best GM we've had here since the return was Dorsey. Guy went after it. Prioritized winning. He got into a pissing contest with Depo and hired Kitchens out of spite. It was his undoing. Bad move for him.

Dorsey's guardrails were to win and he took some massive swings to achieve that.

Easy to take "massive swings" when you have more assets than anyone in the history of sports.

Depo supplies the info, he doesn't tell Haslam or anyone else what to do with it.

Dorsey got into a pissing contest with Depo and hired Kitchens out of spite? Thank god we kept the right dude.

Yes things have gone swimmingly well since then.

Well, let's see... Dorsey had the #1 pick, #4 pick, 5 picks in the top 67 (would have been six but we traded the #1 in the 3rd for Tyrod, the QB that started three games).

NINE picks in 2018... we have Nick Chubb and Hospital Ward to show for it. Then he traded the #1 in 2019 for the poster-child of primadonna WRs, along with Jabrill Peppers -- a player that's still playing solid, physical football for the Patriots. Not that this team needs any physicality.

If your going to talk swimmingly, at least talk about how we ended up in deep waters.

Lolz.

This is the same GM who drafted Baker, a guy you hate and showcase said hate just a tad. The guy who chose Austin Corbitt over Nick Chubb just picks apart (thank goodness the prior regime got an extra pick from the Osweiler deal). A guy who took Mayfield over Josh Allen and Lamar Jackson. The guy who gave up a first rounder for OBJ, his wildly overpaid contract and consistent injuries. The guy who wanted to keep Freddie Kitchens.

I could go on.....

What does the "z" mean in "Lolz". I've never known that.

Sure he had some misses, but not all of them are what you listed. Corbett has been a solid starter in this league for years. OBJ was not a miss. Baker was a miss, and OBJ couldn't stand playing with him.

If the best GM since the return is not Dorsey, who is it then?

It's easily Andrew Berry, IMO, until Watson proves to be a fail. We all know his ceiling as a QB and we've never sniffed that in terms of a franchise QB. He landed him even after Watson ruled CLE out at first, allegedly.

Dorsey..the guy who built the team that went 11-5, made the playoffs and actually won a playoff game.

The claim to fame for Haslam, Depo, Berry and Stefanski...they road the coattails of man most responsible for the talent on that 2000 playoff team.

How many times have the Browns made the playoffs since he left the Browns..?

If Haslam and his Harvard boys prove that their analytics ways produce enough WINS as in making the playoffs...I will be one of the first to give them credit.

For someone who claims Depo has so much control over this team since he joined, why not give him credit for building the team that made the playoffs?

Dorsey should be flogged for drafting Baker #1 and thrown into a nest of barbed wire for getting fleeced by Dave Gettleman.

We sat through 1-31 for a guy that shaved 3x on game day in a loss to Denver culminating in himself looking like John Candy in his postgame presser.

This fan base has been through some things.

Dorsey was such a charlatan that KC fired him a couple months AFTER they drafted Patrick Mahomes realizing Brett Veach was the reason for the Mahomes intel.

Sashi Brown

….I’m only saying him because I’m in the mood to watch the board argue for the next 5 pages of how good/bad he was.

Sashi definitely won the Sashi/Hue War. We all know that!

Here we go!

Honestly, I don't think there will be much of a debate. There aren't that many ridiculously dumb fans on here.

memp...give depo credit...FOR WHAT..? Depo and gang did not build the 2020 team that won 11 games and went 1-1 in the 2020 playoffs.

Dorsey acquired the team's talent that made the playoffs...if you can't admit that, you are totally blind about what the Harvard boys have accomplished since Dorsey was fired.

What talent did depo add to the team that made the playoffs in 2020..?

Sashi could have found better talent. With a blindfold and a dart board.

What talent did depo add to the team that made the playoffs in 2020..?
Depo was here before Dorsey.and part of the extra draft selections Dorsey got to choose from that led to Chubb and Ward. No doubt, those were Depo's decisions since he has so much power as you claim. And all of that hard work done from San Diego.

Look at the last 2-3 pages of this thread and the posters who have completely hijacked it. Great example of why so many good posters left the board due all the idiotic agenda crap that ruins almost all threads.

So, not just agendas? Idiotic agenda crap?

There's only ever one agenda here, and it's always peddled by the same martyr.

I’m willing to wait to see what KS does with the defensive coordinator spot

Yeah, buying a player makes you a wizard. lol Point being, other than throwing a quarter of a billion dollars at a QB Berry has done no better than Dorsey. And some people act as though he's Jesus reincarnated. If Dorsey deserved being shown the door so does Berry.

This is going to hurt.

Dorsey was shown the door because he drafted Baker Mayfield with the 1st overall pick and hired the fat, drunk, and stupid Freddie Kitchens as head coach. He was a mindless doof.

Yet in Stefnaski's first season that same QB led this team to the playoffs. I wonder why after Baker setting rookie records you think that had anything to do with Dorsey being fired? It's not like they had some crystal ball to see the future Baker.

CAN I GET AN "AMEN"

Dorsey was shown the door for many, many reasons.

Sheet, sheet, sheet

More like sack, sack, sack.

This is the our 3rd hurt Center? Makes JC Tretter's release sting even more. Unreal.

It might sting more if it was the split-film field that caused the injury.

I do not know who our smartest gm was but the two smartest gm moves I have seen us make were. #1- getting a first round pick for Trent Richardson and #2- (my personal favorite) getting a 2nd round pick and the tall qb from Houston in return for picking up his contract. We had plenty of dough and I think we turned the pick into nick Chubb. I’m not sure who the gm was for those two moves but they were brilliant moves.

Tell us what you really think.

Dorsey kicked ass compared to Andrew Berry's pathetic drafts!

Yeah, it's going to hurt. I admit that I was wrong about Pocic. I saw his PFF numbers w/Seattle and said that while he had good grades in the run game, his pass blocking grades sucked. Well, I wasn't wrong about that part because I was quoting PFF......but, I was wrong in that I thought we would be hurting at center after Harris got hurt. Pocic has been outstanding. I'll gladly eat the crow.

https://twitter.com/grant_puskar_/status/1594735309887078400


Grant Puskar
@grant_puskar_
Just a few players Andrew Berry is responsible for drafting to the #Browns: Grant Delpit, Jordan Elliot, Jacob Phillips, Anthony Schwartz, Tommy Togiai, Demetric Felton, Perrion Winfrey, Richard LeCounte III

Those were all "opportunities". And they'll have seven more "opportunities" to see what they can do.

You have to cherish every season and every game in the NFL. Stefanski and Berry don't do that.

Froholdt against Vita Vea wont be good lol

LOL - sure.

The Doof had 4 picks in the top 34 of the 2018 draft:

1. B. Mayfield - We know how that worked out.
2. D. Ward - Mr. Concussion and oft-injured.
3. Corbett - Traded away less than a year later for a 5th round pick.
4. N. Chubb - Homerun.

Awesome drafting. Following year, The Doof trades 1st, 4th, and Peppers for the great BloBJ. Drafts Greedy Williams in 2nd round - about as average as average can be (if on the field which is rare).

So, by my count, they have 4 players from the Dorsey drafts still on the team: Chubb, Ward, Taki, and Williams - that's some really good drafting there.

You're selling yourself short Hammer... those are the bright spots!

Donnie Lewis Jr.
Drew Forbes
Austin Seibert
Mack Wilson
Sheldrick Redwine
Chad Thomas
Antonio Callaway
Genard Avery
Damion Ratley
Simeon Thomas

That's rap legend Major Nine!

Playoffs here we come...

I don't give up hope until the word mathematically gets tossed in. Then I check their math.

All of our GM's have SUCKED! What is your damn point? Dorsey did better than Berry lil fella.

Berry is a garbage GM. Dorsey is not a GM any longer for a
Reason but at least he hit a HR with the drafting of Chubb
Berry has hit no Homeruns as a GM.
Berry has drafted average players at best.
Even Sashi drafted a HR in Myles Garrett. But a blind clown
Could have made that selection
Wills is a bust..Delphit bust. Bryant bust .JOK...under achiever
How's the genius trade Berry made on draft day this year coming along?
York was all hype ....Winfrey is a clown. .....Emerson might be a find.

PFF Grades after 11 weeks of play and 10 Browns games.

PFF GRADES THROUGH 10-weeks

TOTAL OFFENSIVE GRADES:
___________________________________1 player currently performing at Elite Level 90-100
Chubb - RB - 90.3 - 2nd of 63 - Georgia - 2018
___________________________________1 player currently performing at Pro Bowl Level 89-85
Bitonio - G - 88.4 - 2nd of 83 - Nevada - 2014
___________________________________7 players performing at Starter Level 84-70
Pocic - C - 83.0 - 2nd of 39 - LSU - 2017 (Injured - placed on IR)
Njoku - TE - 82.9 - 3rd of 70 - Miami, FL - 2017
Brissett - QB - 81.7 - 8th of 39 - NC State - 2016
Cooper - WR - 79.0 - 14th of 117 - Alabama - 2016
Teller - G - 77.6 - 6th of 83 - Virginia Tech - 2018
Hubbard - T - 74.7 - NR - UAB - 2013
DPJ - WR - 70.8 - 41st of 117 - Michigan - 2020
___________________________________10 players currently performing at Backup Level 69-60
Conklin - OT - 67.7 - 39th of 80 - Michigan St - 2016
Hunt - RB - 66.3 - 41st of 63 - Toledo - 2017
Froholdt - G - 66.0 - 31st of 83 - Arkansas - 2019
Johnson - RB - 65.9 - NR - South Florida - 2019
Wills - OT - 65.5 - 47th of 80 - Alabama - 2020
Forbes - OG - 64.7 - NR - SE Missouri St - 2019
York - K - 63.4 - 29th of 43 - LSU - 2022
Dunn - OT - 61.1 - NR - Maryland - 2017
Forristall - TE - 60.1 - NR - Alabama - 2021
Haeg - OT - 60.0 - NR - N Dakota St - 2016
___________________________________9 players currently performing at Replaceable Level 59-0
Bryant - TE - 57.3 - 53rd of 70 - Florida Atlantic - 2020
Brown - TE - 56.3 - 54th of 70 - Oregon - 2017
Felton - WR - 56.1 - NR - UCLA - 2021
Bell - WR - 56.0 - 106th of 117 - Purdue - 2022
Woods II - WR - 55.7 - NR - Oklahoma - 2022
Hudson - OT - 53.8 - 74th of 80 - Cincinnati - 2021
Schwartz - WR - 49.1 - NR - Auburn - 2021
James - TE - 42.2 - NR - Penn St - 2015
Rogers - WR - 00.0 - NR - Grambling St - 2016

TOTAL DEFENSIVE GRADE
___________________________________1 player currently performing at Elite Level 90-100
Garrett - Edge - 92.7 - 1st of 116 - Texas A&M - 2017
___________________________________0 players currently performing at Pro Bowl Level 89-85
___________________________________4 players currently performing at Starter Level 84-70
Walker - LB - 82.7 - NR - Northwestern - 2017 (injured, out for season)
Emerson - CB - 73.3 - 20th of 120 - Mississippi St - 2022
Clowney - Edge - 71.4 - 40th of 116 - South Carolina - 2014
Takitaki - LB - 70.8 - 23rd of 82 - BYU - 2019
___________________________________6 players currently performing at Backup Level 69-60
Bojorquez - P - 69.1 - 15th of 32 - New Mexico - 2018
D. Bell - S - 64.5 - NR - West Florida Argonauts - 2022
JOK - LB - 63,4 - 42nd of 82 - Notre Dame - 2021
Kunaszyk - LB - 63.1 - NR - California - 2019
Newsome - CB - 62.1 - 62nd of 120 - Northwestern - 2021
Stille - DT - 60.7 - NR - Nebraska - 2022
___________________________________18 players currently performing Replaceable Level 59-0
Thomas - Edge - 58.1 - NR - Oklahoma - 2022
Johnson - S - 57.7 - 66th of 86 - Boston Coll - 2017
Delpit - S - 56.5 - 68th of 86 - LSU - 2020
Williams - CB - 55.9 - NR - LSU - 2019
Rochell - Edge - 52.9 - NR - Notre Dame - 2017 (Waived 11/12)
Perry - DT - 52.4 - NR - Illinois - 2022 (Waived 11/14)
Winovich - Edge - 50.8 - NR - Michigan - 2019
Bryan - DT - 46.7 - 100th of 122 - Florida - 2018
Winfrey - DT - 45.6 - NR - Oklahoma - 2022
Green - CB - 45.1 - NR - Oklahoma St - 2020
Ward - CB - 44.1 - 114th of 120 - Ohio St - 2018
Harrison - S - 42.1 - NR - Alabama - 2018
Fields -- LB - 38.4 - NR - West Virginia - 2021
Phillips - LB - 36.7 - 78th of 82 - LSU - 2020 (injured, out for season)
Wright - Edge - 34.6 - 116th of 116 - UAB - 2022
Jones - LB - 33.5 - NR - LSU - 2016
Elliott - DT - 31.3 - 117th of 122 - Missouri - 2020
Togiai - DT - 30.4 - 120th of 122 - Ohio St - 2021

NR = Not Ranked due to not having snap minimum

SCALE:
100 - 90 = Elite level of play
85-89 = Pro Bowl level of play
84-70 = Starter level of play
69-60 = Backup level of play
59-0 = Replaceable level of play

Just curious. Do you look at position rank as well as their grades? Njoku is listed as a starter but is 3rd overall. Pocic is listed as number. 2 of all centers. I personally like looking at the numbers and ranks but don’t put all that much stock in them.

I look at those numbers/grades and can’t believe how bad they are. Ward, Philips, the DTs etc … it’s just embarrassing

I'd trade Ward to the highest bidder. If it was a 3rd rounder, I'd take it. If it was lower, then I guess I would have to keep him. He is probably as good as most 4th round corners who could be drafted.

This has been explained to him multiple times. He's agenda posting, like normal.

D4...how did the Browns defense get this way..?

...and is there any way to fix what's wrong..?

Can we depend on the present management to judge their own contribution to the problem..?

mac, what choice do we have?

We root for the team. We don't run it. It's a freaking game. We do have the choice to no longer root for the team and/or support it. That would make sense if one is so disgusted by what they see. I guess we could be like Pit and a few others, who no longer root or support the team, but come on here solely to trash every move the team makes and degrade other posters who still root for the team, but most of us are not wired w/that way.

Being a fan of a team doesn't put food on the table. It doesn't protect us from criminals. It doesn't provide shelter. It doesn't define us as to how moral we are. It's a game that is for entertainment purposes. It would be different f we were players, coaches, FO personnel, etc. But, we are not. We are just fans. No one is forcing us to support the Cleveland Browns or any team, for that matter.

vers...you didn't address any of the questions I asked...why..?

I'm a guy who sees a problem then sets out to fix the problem.

...first order of business for the franchise..IDENTIFY THE ISSUES..
... beginning with Haslam and down the chain of command to Depo and his group, to GM Berry and his scouting department, to the HC and his OC and DC and their coaching staffs.
...It is vitally important that those at the very top are HONEST about their involvement as we attempt to identify the defensive issues. Normally, the owner would not be included in the process of identifying the issues..but in Cleveland, we have an owner (Jimmy H.) who might be the most involved owner in the NFL when it comes to making franchise decisions..therefore he must be considered as a potential factor contributing to the issues plaguing the defense.

...the Browns have the same D.Coordinator as last season (2021)...a season when the Browns defense RANKED 13th in POINTS ALLOWED and "5th IN THE NFL" IN YDS ALLOWED.

....so, WHAT CHANGED in the off-season, between the last game of the 2021/22 season to the 2022/23 season this year..?
..........the Browns have the same DC (Woods), running the same defensive scheme. The Browns Defense has declined from 13th to 30th in points allowed so far in the 2022 season..and the Defense declined from 5th to 20th in yds given up so far in 2022.

...anyone have an idea what happened to cause such a decline in the Browns defense..?

I tried to answer. There is nothing you and I can really do other than complain.

I would trade Ward in a minute for whatever we can get. Newsome and Emerson are good enough and we can find a third guy. Ward has been terrific, but this year he has not helped at all, and we need the cap space. I just doubt anyone would take on that contract.

And you're spot on, Vers. All we can do is cheer and/or complain. It kind of sucks when we turn on each other and get personal. We're just helpless fans with our opinions and passion. It seems like even if this team ever put it all together, we would be nitpicking each other about who was right and who was wrong.

Yep we cut my man Porter Gustin

Lousy DT's injuries to our DE's, the loss of Mckinley, Malcolm Smith, and Walker to injury to start.

j/c...

Gross. It almost seems impossible to be this bad at stopping the run, but then you look at roster construction and it's been largely ignored.

The Browns defensive numbers last year at the end of the
Season were very misleading
The scheduled featured a great deal of QBs that were rookies
I e Justin Fields....QBs on its last legs I e Big Ben....backup QBs
I.e Tyler Hundley, Brandon Allen But when it faced QBs with actual talent ,
The defense was easy to score ...Hebert and Mahomes
Had their way. But Browns fans just look at the bottom line
Number and never do any in depth research.
So this defense was fools gold. And this season reinforces
That thought.

Mac, i don’t have the answers .. all I know is we are a constantly losing franchise. It’s a bad cycle where losing leads to more losing.

In terms of Ward, I think he got paid and stopped giving the effort (and maybe effort in film study too).

If I were the FO: I’d keep Stefanski, but want a new DC and ST coach. I’d tell Kevin to maximize Watson like he has done for Baker and brissett. And I’d do my best to get the best DT/DE/S possible, whatever it takes.

I'd say that there is a very good chance of this happening.

anyone have an idea what caused the decline in the Brownz defense? :LOL:
HA.
got rid of Mayfield, a 4th year @b who waz your own.
got rid of Malik Jackzon and Malik Mcdowell, where did takk mkinley go?

3. Got rid of Rashard Higgins and, Jarvis Landry and then OBJ too.
4. Got rid of Troy Hill, and in those orderz.
Changing the @b effectz the defense the mozt of those 4^ because the way the gamez play out

2. changing the middle of the DL effectz the D 2nd mozt becaue of the way the running defense playz out.
3. Getting rid of Troy hill becaue he waz a vetran which would help other playerz define their rolez
4. getting rid of Higginz and Landry because of time other teamz had to develop against playing against your own pazzing game.

You don't have a defense when you can't get first downz with your own offense. it'a a zymbotic relationship.

Free agency ruined the NFL.

Yes, Njoku is the 3rd best ranked TE of all the TE's that have played enough snaps to qualify. That will most likely change very shortly due to missed games and his current questionable status. The other issue that might occur is because the sample will be smaller, the numbers move up or down in bigger chunks with a good or bad game, so the jury is still out on Njoku. Same situation with Pocic. He's the 2nd ranked center of all centers that have enough snaps to qualify but being on IR with almost half the season to go will most likely take the ranking away but not the grade he's achieved for a half season.

Anthony Schwartz has 7 targets, not catches TARGETs on the year so far.

Analyze how a 3rd round pick, doesn't even get targeted,

But the entire offense seems to run through Harrison TE, 3rd, Bryant, every week for every year since 20I6.

Analyze how the Browns have a WR coach, O'shea but noboby except maybe 3 playerz can even catch anything, I mean all 3 TE'z had a drop last game.

no wonder, they lose so often.
The Browns are to the NFL what Arizona is to college football.

Elliot and Togiai have been rated consistently as the worst DTs in the ENTIRE league. I mean come on, there has to the Practice squad or waiver wire players better than those 2. You statistically cannot get any worse.

https://247sports.com/nfl/cleveland...-rushing-failures-198378664/#198378664_1

OBR Film Room: Analyzing The Browns Recent Rushing Attack Failures
ByJAKE BURNS Nov 24, 10:06 AM
7

(Photo: Getty)
The Browns' offense continues to boast some of the better metrics in the league overall, but over the course of the last two weeks, they have been missing a key element of what makes them among the best. They have failed to run the football in the same successful fashion they did over the first eight weeks, and the byproduct of that failure is a one-dimensional approach that has hindered their success rate.

Through the first 8 weeks of the season, the Browns were rushing the ball extremely well. They had the league's second-highest overall rush EPA (0.11) behind only the Ravens and the second-highest design running back run EPA (0.08) behind only the Raiders. Over the last two weeks in games against the Dolphins and Bills, the Browns have amassed the 27th-ranked rush EPA (-0.30) and only put up 123 yards on 36 carries - one of which was a 33-yard run. The run game efficiency is broken and fixing it has to be the primary focus in Berea this week.

The group had 19 rushes of two yards or less over these last few weeks and 8 rushes of negative yards as opposed to just 18 total negative rushes in the season's first eight weeks. The -20 yards is the third most yards lost to designed runs in the NFL these two weeks. One would think opposing defenses are loading the box, but Nick Chubb--the Browns' primary ball carrier--is seeing the same 32 percent of 8-man boxes over the last two weeks as he did in the team's first eight games.

Kevin Stefanski touched on the difficulty of rushing the last few weeks following the loss in Detroit to the Bills. “It was not good. We have been better. We all expect better. It is never one person. We have to run the ball better. When we are not running the ball well in early downs, it obviously affects your game. It affects your ability to stay in manageable down and distances, second down, and those types of things. We have to look at it and have to get it fixed.”

When watching the games from the television broadcast angle it is tough to see who failed and why. It's basically results-based viewing. This discourse here is meant to show you the breakdowns and how they impacted everything around them. As usual, as Stefanski noted above, it is not just one player or one problem. It is different often snap to snap and the lack of sync in the group is obvious to see.

Let's track these snaps as best we can.

ONE FAILURE LEADS TO ANOTHER
When running wide zone, there are often times when offensive linemen are asked to reach block on tough assignments. This means a guard, center, or tackle will have to work like crazy to get inside of a player with a pre-snap alignment cheated in the direction of the rush attempt. The only effective way to do this is to get an initial double team and then work to fight into a position on the exchange that allows the disadvantaged player to get into position. These double teams have names: ACE for center and guard, DEUCE between guard and tackle, and TREY between tackle and tight end.

The Browns have been failing to cut off inside alignments for two weeks. The examples here will show you the single problem that leads to more problems behind it. Watch here as Hjalte Froholdt (No.72) at center misses the shade who stunts back inside. This causes the entire course for Nick Chubb to change and yields a loss in yards.


The Browns try to hit the perimeter here with a pin/pull concept, but they are asking a wide receiver (Peoples-Jones, No.11) to block down on an inside-aligned Von Miller (No.40). This is asking a lot of a receiver blocking down on an EDGE here and it blows up as the upfield pursuit of Miller forces Chubb to retreat and the Browns lose yards on the rush.


An example here of failing to secure inside. This is simple wide zone from the Browns and between Joel Bitonio and Froholdt, they fail to secure the first level defender (No.92) before climbing to the linebacker and the upfield pursuit runs the run. Again, the timing is off.


Yet another example of a failed double team. Without a defender to threaten Jedrick Wills outside, he never alters course to work back inside and help seal the edge. His toiling without work leaves the edge vulnerable and thus no gain. If he simply turns back to help Bitonio with his man (No.92) then you are looking at a nice gain.


This is simple but a clear example of one failure leading to another. Watch as a passive approach from Teller at right guard allows Ed Oliver (No.91) to win upfield and make the tackle for a loss in the backfield. This is a pump/draw scheme meant to encourage upfield rush but Teller turns his body too far laterally to allow Oliver to quickly turn past him and decipher the scheme.


BACKSIDE FAILURES
There have been several examples of the backside costing the Browns from breaking runs. The theory is always the front side of blocking schemes allows them to work while securing the backside of schemes is what allows them to break loose. The Browns have been failing on the backside of runs for a couple of weeks.

The first example here comes from the Dolphins game where the Browns are running left side wide zone. Watch as Teller and Conklin fail to work together to secure Christian Wilkins (No.94) before climbing to the linebacker. Conklin has no chance to get there on his own.


Browns get a great look here with right side wide zone, but Wills, despite being in a great initial position, fails to shield the backside 3-tech from getting down the line and causing disruption to the cut Chubb makes off the read. The tackle causes a fumble on what had a chance to be a 10+ yard gain if the backside was sealed off.


I am not sure if the Browns decide this pin/pull scheme is going to ignore the backside 1-tech (Wilkins, No.94) but he is untouched on the backside, and Conklin is left without a defender to climb. Attempting to cut Wilkins makes the most sense here, but he is untouched and stops Chubb down the line before this run can climb to the next level. Big play missed.


AGGRESSIVE LINEBACKERS
The last focus issue here is the handling of downhill linebackers. Miami's Jerome Baker and Buffalo's Matt Milano caused headaches all day for late-reacting Browns offensive lineman. This is something the Browns must rectify in the coming weeks.

The first example is in the Wildcat goal-line situation last week. Watch here as Teller is late out his stance at right guard and Milano (No.58) changes Chubb's course and causes him to bounce the run into a waiting Bills edge. If Milano was cut off, the path for Chubb is easy to see developing.


Browns go weak side wide zone and have the look they want. However, watch as Milano's aggressive path through the A-gap beats Teller's movement and he meets Chubb in the backfield. Again, if Milano is secured the hole is waiting for a big run.


Strong side wide zone against the Bills here again, and watch the two linebackers win into the gap. Milano spills it to the SAM linebacker (No.53) and Chubb has no answer in his course. Consistently seeing these linebackers beat Browns' interior linemen.


This is also not just limited to linemen. Here Pharoah Brown (No.84) has to down block on the MIKE linebacker, Jerome Baker, against the Dolphins. The counter scheme is set up perfectly with a tight lead following Bitonio's kick-out block but Baker bullies Brown in the hole and condenses the running lane and it goes for no gain outcome.


FINAL THOUGHTS
This is a concerning trend for the Browns. I feel as though you usually find this group prepared for outcomes in their scheme but the group is lacking a sense of spatial awareness for the types of angles they need in the scheme and what opposing defenders are doing to attack the concept. Outside of aggressive linebacker play, teams are slanting away from the movement at times to mess with the angle from wide zone, but these are nothing new. Teams have thrown these adjustments at them before.

7
COMMENTS
Last week the screen game started to help against the hyper-aggressive second level of the Bills, but there will need to be some answers in simple run concept. The Browns are at their best when they control the line of scrimmage and build off their run efficiency. If they lose that efficiency, they become an easy team to defend. Stefanski knows this and the Browns will have their hands full with a very talented front seven of the Buccaneers coming to town this weekend.

"On defense, (Buccaneers Head) Coach (Todd) Bowles has always done it," Stefanski noted this at his media session yesterday. "A great, great defense. Physical, big. Up front, stout. Long at corner. They will blitz you from every angle. They can play coverage. They do it well. It is an impressive group. Again, good players throughout that front."

Getting Deshaun Watson back at quarterback will help these situations where the offense leans heavily on throwing the ball, but the Browns have paid big money in cap and assets to be able to run the ball with success. they simply have to do it to be their best version. How Stefanski, offensive coordinator Alex Van Pelt, and offensive line coach Bill Callahan get them back on track will be something worth closely watching this week against that Bucs front. They will badly need it to keep this one close


This does highlight how poor soame of the run designs have been. DPJ being asked to block Von Miller? Really? Also showcases how much it hurt when Pocic went down.

The frustrating thing is I think most of us could have predicted our DTs to be among the worst in the NFL all the way back in June

I dunno, I don't think itz that complicated. Ethan Pocic in my mind waz a real NFL center, and zo waz the Union Rep from 2 yearz ago.
But, Nick Harriz and the guy who replaced Pocic, weren't real, (real experienced, and really tested) centerz, and, I think a center iz really really really important to effective running gamez. And, of course coaches won't want to zay it'z all about one person.

Thanks for posting the Burns article. Very educational.

This is an excellent breakdown of the first 3 quarters of the Buffalo game.

Thanks Davey for posting the video. Very informative. I've made my way through about half of it. Puts things into perspective for those that actually want to know what is occurring.

Link

Interesting, but not surprising.

Jacoby Brizzet, 0 tdz, one int in the first half against Tampa Bay.
turnoverz.

Good win by the Browns. let the Watson era begin.

Yep

Bitonio had a nice interview at the end of the game that expressed their gratitude of Brissett. Basically saying that he deserved more than 4 wins, which is probably true

I think it's without doubt true. Brissett has played exceedingly well outside of a couple of late game blunders early on. And not only has he played above expectations - it's clear that he is an all round world class human/individual.

We don't have to worry about seeing that at the QB position for a while.

I wonder if Chubb did it all four seasons in 12 games?

In a way he did,

2019 he played all 16 games and had 1,175 yards after the first 12 games.
2020 he only played in 12 games as he was on IR for 4 games and he rushed for 1,067 yards.
2021 he was inactive for 2 games due to injury but in the first 12 games that he was active for he rushed for 1,017 yards and that includes being active but not playing in 1 game due to injury.

Thanks for the information.

Jim Brown's records from the browns site: Brown owns team records for most combined net yards (15,459), career rushing yards (12,312), most points in one season (126), career TDs (126), rushing TDs (106), most consecutive games scoring a TD (10) and most 1,000 yard seasons (seven).

How many of those records can Chubb break in Cleveland? I wouldn't mind him sending old Jim into relative obscurity.

Congrats to Chubb

j/c...

I'd imagine they'll try and sign Dobbs back to the practice squad if/when he clears waivers.

Mond must be making some strides

Perhaps ... but the fact is that we have him on a relatively cheap rookie contract for the next two seasons, and Dobbs and Brissett will be Veteran FAs' after this season.

I would say that Mond would have had to show enough to determine that he is worthy of a very important roster spot going forward.

They must really like Mond.

This doesn't help the football team. Jacoby will be gone next year. He has a 1-year contract that is good for $4.5 million. He'll get more somewhere else and have the opportunity to compete for a starting job. Do we really want to go into the season w/Mond as our backup qb?

Waiving this "production" also doesn't hurt the team. He's a 3rd/4th string QB after 5 years in the league, not a significant loss if another team picks him up.

I’d suspect Dobbs to be back

Why put the word production in quotation marks? I did not mention a thing about production.

Look, this isn't a huge deal, but I'd rather have Dobbs on the team than Mond. JMO.

Why? Do you think he is really any better than the other 3rd/4th string guy? Does he have more upside? Does he fit the scheme better?

I liked what little I saw in preseason out of Dobbs, but he didn't do anything to move up the ranks then, and I am not sure there is much separating the two. I would be interested to understand what the FO's thought process was in this, more out of curiosity than loyalty to a 3rd/4th QB.

It's just my opinion, but I would trust him more than Mond to be Watson's backup next year. Also, Dobbs is incredibly intelligent. Big Ben spent more time talking to him than his OC in Pittsburgh when the two were together.

Again, not a huge deal..........but, I don't see how Mond is a better backup than Dobbs.

I'll drop it now.

I never said you mentioned production. I put it in quotes as an ironic use since his stats, what very little there are, are technically production-based.

I agree, it's not a huge deal. I was simply pointing out that his being waived didn't help nor hurt the team.

Personally, I hope Brissett is still our backup next year. But if he is gone, I'm good with Dobbs from the few glimpses we've had, but he is third-string for a reason, so just get us the best backup available.

Yeah, Brissett I being our backup next year is a dream, but we all know that probably won’t happen. I think he’s earned the shot at a starting job

But yer saying there's still a chance?

I want to keep Jacoby, but he's earned the right to start for another team. Here is one thing to consider..............Will Jacoby play anywhere near as good as he has this year w/out Stefanski? I know there are a group of folks on here who trash Stefanski all the time, but the guy is a very good coach w/a QB friendly scheme. He is also a great play caller. JB never played close to this good in any of his other stops.

Factual QB Comparison after 11 games played

__QB____________Comp___Att____Comp %____yards____YGA____TD___INT___TD/INT Ratio____QB Rate____Sacks____Fumbles____W_____L_____T____PCT
Brissett____________236___368____64.1%_____2608____7.087___12____6_______2.00________95.65_______24________6_______4_____7_____0____0.364
Mayfield 2021_______176___271____64.9%_____2166____7.993___10____6_______1.67_______101.44_______27________5_______6_____5_____0____0.545 (injured for 9 of 11 games)
Mayfield 2020_______180___294____61.2%_____2108____7.170___17____7_______2.43_______101.86_______17________3_______8_____3_____0____0.727

The number do not lie, as good as Brissett performed this year - his stats are no better than an injured Baker performance - in fact worse in many areas.

PFF GRADES THROUGH 11-weeks

TOTAL OFFENSIVE GRADES:
___________________________________1 player currently performing at Elite Level 90-100
Chubb - RB - 90.1 - 2nd of 63 - Georgia - 2018
___________________________________1 player currently performing at Pro Bowl Level 89-85
Bitonio - G - 86.1 - 2nd of 84 - Nevada - 2014
___________________________________5 players performing at Starter Level 84-70
Pocic - C - 83.0 - 3rd of 39 - LSU - 2017 (Injured - placed on IR)
Brissett - QB - 82.5 - 9th of 39 - NC State - 2016
Njoku - TE - 81.4 - 2nd of 71 - Miami, FL - 2017
Cooper - WR - 78.8 - 15th of 120 - Alabama - 2016
Teller - G - 75.4 - 8th of 84 - Virginia Tech - 2018
___________________________________12 players currently performing at Backup Level 69-60
DPJ - WR - 69.2 - 48th of 120 - Michigan - 2020
Conklin - OT - 66.4 - 44th of 76 - Michigan St - 2016
Hunt - RB - 66.4 - 43rd of 63 - Toledo - 2017
Wills - OT - 66.3 - 45th of 76 - Alabama - 2020
Johnson - RB - 65.9 - NR - South Florida - 2019
Froholdt - G - 65.8 - 26th of 84 - Arkansas - 2019
Forbes - G - 64.7 - NR - SE Missouri St - 2019
Hubbard - T - 63.9 - NR - UAB - 2013
Dunn - OT - 61.1 - NR - Maryland - 2017
York - K - 60.6 - 31st of 44 - LSU - 2022
Forristall - TE - 60.1 - NR - Alabama - 2021
Haeg - OT - 60.0 - NR - N Dakota St - 2016
___________________________________10 players currently performing at Replaceable Level 59-0
Bryant - TE - 58.9 - 40th of 71 - Florida Atlantic - 2020
Brown - TE - 56.6 - 53rd of 71 - Oregon - 2017
Felton - WR - 56.1 - NR - UCLA - 2021
Woods II - WR - 55.7 - NR - Oklahoma - 2022
Mancz - C - 55.1 - NR - Toledo - 2015
Bell - WR - 55.0 - 109th of 120 - Purdue - 2022
Hudson - OT - 54.9 - NR - Cincinnati - 2021
Schwartz - WR - 51.4 - NR - Auburn - 2021
James - TE - 42.2 - NR - Penn St - 2015
Rogers - WR - 00.0 - NR - Grambling St - 2016

TOTAL DEFENSIVE GRADE
___________________________________1 player currently performing at Elite Level 90-100
Garrett - Edge - 92.4 - 1st of 119 - Texas A&M - 2017
___________________________________0 players currently performing at Pro Bowl Level 89-85
___________________________________4 players currently performing at Starter Level 84-70
Walker - LB - 82.7 - NR - Northwestern - 2017 (injured, out for season)
Emerson - CB - 73.2 - 20th of 121 - Mississippi St - 2022
Graham - CB - 70.7 - NR - Oregon - 2021
Bojorquez - P - 70.1 - 16th of 32 - New Mexico - 2018
___________________________________8 players currently performing at Backup Level 69-60
Clowney - Edge - 69.4 - 42nd of 119 - South Carolina - 2014
JOK - LB - 69.0 - 28th of 83 - Notre Dame - 2021
Takitaki - LB - 66.6 - 34th of 83 - BYU - 2019
Stille - DT - 65.2 - NR - Nebraska - 2022
D. Bell - S - 64.5 - NR - West Florida Argonauts - 2022
Kunaszyk - LB - 63.1 - NR - California - 2019
Newsome - CB - 62.1 - 59th of 121 - Northwestern - 2021
Johnson - S - 60.2 - 61st of 88 - Boston Coll - 2017
___________________________________17 players currently performing Replaceable Level 59-0
Thomas - Edge - 57.3 - NR - Oklahoma - 2022
Williams - CB - 56.2 - NR - LSU - 2019
Delpit - S - 55.9 - 68th of 88 - LSU - 2020
Rochell - Edge - 52.9 - NR - Notre Dame - 2017 (Waived 11/12)
Perry - DT - 52.4 - NR - Illinois - 2022 (Waived 11/14)
Winovich - Edge - 50.8 - NR - Michigan - 2019
Fields -- LB - 50.0 - NR - West Virginia - 2021
Green - CB - 48.7 - NR - Oklahoma St - 2020
Bryan - DT - 46.7 - 100th of 125 - Florida - 2018
Ward - CB - 46.2 - 112th of 121 - Ohio St - 2018
Winfrey - DT - 45.4 - NR - Oklahoma - 2022
Harrison - S - 45.3 - NR - Alabama - 2018
Phillips - LB - 36.7 - 78th of 83 - LSU - 2020 (injured, out for season)
Wright - Edge - 35.8 - 119th of 119 - UAB - 2022
Jones - LB - 33.7 - NR - LSU - 2016
Elliott - DT - 32.3 - 120th of 125 - Missouri - 2020
Togiai - DT - 30.4 - 122nd of 125 - Ohio St - 2021

NR = Not Ranked due to not having snap minimum

SCALE:
100 - 90 = Elite level of play
85-89 = Pro Bowl level of play
84-70 = Starter level of play
69-60 = Backup level of play
59-0 = Replaceable level of play

I'm guessing Chubb is not done. Jim Brown retired rather early so his numbers are reachable. But it will depend on Chubb's longevity.

I can't find the above to be any formal scale/legend/key/whatever PFF uses to categorize their player grades. Can you show me where you found this on their website (if there is a nonsubscriber explanation)?

Here’s how PFF works, the company grades each player on every play from a scale of negative two to two in 0.5 increments. Here’s how the company defines the benefits of their grading system.

“Taking every play into consideration allows for a larger sample size of data to tell the proper story rather than just a highlight reel of plays that we tend to remember, for better or worse. We also work to eliminate bias by not caring about the level of player who is being graded, so whether it’s the best tackle in the league missing a block or one of the worst, the same grade is given. Preconceived level of ability has no impact on the grading system. This style has worked well in unlocking undervalued gems through the years, while also not being swayed by player hype if it is undeserved.”

Each game players are graded on a scale from 1-100. 90-100 represents an elite grade, 85-89 represents an all-conference player, 70-84 is starter quality, 60-69 is backup quality and everything under 60 is replaceable.

https://dfshub.com/pro-football-focus-pff-player-grades/

Wonder if steve will post Baker Mayfield's PFF score? He brings him up on every other thread.

I'm well aware how PFF grades a player for each play. I was one of the first, if not the first person here, regularly posting PFF grades on players as it related to the performance of Browns' players. Oddly enough, it was often dismissed but now it is common place. Funny how that works.

But this doesn't address my question re: the scale. This page isn't from PFF, it's from a daily fantasy sports site. And the source it refers to is not an active link. It seems at one point it might have come from this page or a variations of it: https://www.pff.com/grades

But nowhere does it reference this grading scale. I'm not sure they are using that.....they certainly aren't showcasing it on the page that has everything else.

A few people have tried to talk about the grading system and mentioned that comparing a player's grades to other players who play the same position is a better indicator than the grades steve keeps selling us.

For example, Tommy Togiai is 122nd out of 125 ranked DTs. Jordan Elliot is 120th. That's bad.

Bitonio is 2nd out of 84 ranked guards and Teller is 8th. That's good.

Jacoby is 9th out of 39 ranked QBs. That's pretty good. Baker is ranked 37th. That's really bad.

Who"s doing the grading for PFF?

Does PFF require prior experience..?

Answer these two questions honestly and you will have an idea if PFF grades are legit or NOT.

Baker ain’t here no mo’. The comparison thread is locked and no one cares.

Edit: when I re-read that, it looked belligerent. Not my intention. The Browns have a new starter with DW, hopefully a franchise player, Baker is not doing well in Carolina. We need to let it go.

Do your own homework.

Unlike you Vers, I'm trying to talk about Browns football with true Browns fans and the direction our team is going. Baker gets mentioned here because he's in every one of your posts and living in your head. Even though he's gone, and people try to move on, you continue to spew your hate for a guy that has zero bearing on the 2022 results. The Browns PFF Grades should be scrutinized because the TEAM is 4-7 and was performing better last year at this time (through 11 games @ 6-5) with an injured Baker as QB than without Baker in 2022 (through 11 games @ 4-7). IMHO, it doesn't matter if Brissett was performing at the level of Mahomes (which he is not), the TEAM is 4-7 and has way deeper issues than a player that's not on the team anymore with no clear explanation as to why they have regressed every year Stefanski has been here. So, if you want to see Mayfield's PFF score for this year - you go look it up. The rest of us will try to figure out how a team with this much talent only has more wins than 4 other teams in the entire NFL because that's the real issue!

I remember when people would say like things about Jordan Elliott, results be whatevered.

The Browns are in I2th in the AFC. but what about the mythical super division.
The mythical super division includes teamz that used to be in the div. with the Browns or that had Cleveland in their name-ish i.e the Ramz.

that would have standings of,
the Ravens,
The Bengals
the Titans
the Jaguars
the Browns
The steelers
the Rams and then
the Texans

The Jaguarz 4 winz all came vz. the AFC zo they have a tie breaker of AFC record against the Brownz, The Brownz have a head to head win over the steelers for that tie breaker to date.
The Bengalz beat the titanz
the Ravenz beat the Bengalz, and I don't know why she swallowed the fly I guezz she'll die.
and
the Ramz and Texanz have lezz than 4 winz.

the Titanz are in first place in their actual division zo they could perhaps be ahead of the Bengalz but either way the Brownz are in 5th out of 8 in the mythical super division.

Chubb got almost 7,000 career yards... and 6,000 rushing... so if he stays healthy he could get those records..

126 points in a season is 21 TDs... he's got 12 this season, but don't think he'll ever touch 21... that's insane...

Career TDs.. Chubb is at 48 rushing, 51 overall... so long way to go to reach 106 and 126...

Not sure on consecutive games scoring a TD

He's at 4 seasons of 1,000 yards... if he stays healthy he should be able to meet or break that one

Just a question for the complaint specialist. The PFF grades I have been posting each week have clearly showed every single time the players grade compared to other players at the same position. I'm not selling anything, the EXACT items you are detailing as being a "better indicator" has been in every single PFF Grade post I have made on this forum. So, what the hell is your problem? I'm also intrigued by the fact that you again made it your mission to spew your hatred agenda and personal attacks by bringing up Mayfield for a post that is only directed at the players performance level of our 4-7 Browns. So sad that you make such a fool out of yourself daily in this forum with your continued hatred and personal attacks.

You replied to me, but steve was the one who brought Baker back into the conversation. He posted the Baker vs Jacoby comparison stats. He also posted about Baker in the Stefanski and Watson threads yesterday. He tried to turn the Woods thread into a Baker thread awhile back. Those guys freak out if I talk about Baker, but they keep bringing him up. They just want the conversation regarding Baker on their terms. Hell, he even gets talked about by The Fabulous Baker Boys in Post Game threads. LOL

I'll take a shot off of a rebound when I like if they continue to try to paint a false narrative.

Edit: If you were really talking to steve instead of me and only clicked on my name because I am the OP, I truly apologize. I noticed you did mention the "comparison" angle.

Back to News and Notes:

I love listening to Donovan's calls. I never get to hear him on the radio anymore, so I appreciate replays like this.

From the link Steve provided above...the answer that many might not be aware of below...


WHO IS DOING THE GRADING?

...PFF employs over 600 full or part-time analysts, but less than 10% of analysts are trained to the level that they can grade plays.

...Only the top two to three percent of analysts are on the team of “senior analysts” in charge of finalizing each grade after review.

...Our graders have been training for months, and sometimes years, in order to learn, understand and show mastery of our process that includes our 300-page training manual and video playbook.

...We have analysts from all walks of life, including former players, coaches and scouts.

...We don’t care if you played.


Only 60 of the 600 analysts are trained well enough to grade plays. Put another way, 540 of the 600 PFF analysts are not qualified to grade plays.
...seems to me that PFF has a vast majority of their analysts who have questionable qualifications and their involvement in the PFF process is an unknown. Based on this information, how much should anyone rely the information that PFF produces..?

Then there is the task of reviewing "every play" by "every player" who participates in an NFL game. The sheer number of plays being analyzed by "less than fully qualified analysts" is a concern when judging the "accuracy of PFF's product".

22 players on the field on each play...times the number of plays in a game...times the number of games played each week...and PFF has something like 60 analysts qualified to make a judgement on each player's on the field performance each week.

Forgive me if I fail to rely on PFF's ability to provide accurate analysis for any individual player's performance in a given week. PFF simply doesn't have enough qualified analysts to provide reliable information...imo.

*all numbers used are approximate...

I'd love to get your 'honest' answer since you seem to know.

Mac, I won't disagree with your opinion. The PFF Grade scale is one of the tools that we have that allows us to see inside as to how the players are performing. No system is perfect by any stretch of the imagination when dissecting game performance. I started posting the PFF Grades because there were individuals that were raving about how well some of our players were doing according to the PFF Scale. I agree that those players should be recognized. However, when the team is losing even with that stellar play, there has to be a statistical reason for why that is happening. If we as fans are going to recognize players for stellar play within that scale, shouldn't those players who are not performing be called out too?

The Browns are 4-7 with only 4 teams currently sporting less wins than our Browns. The Browns (at the time of the quoted posts) have the top offensive and top defensive player in the NFL on their roster but still are posting a losing record - I would think or hope that people would be interested in what players are not playing up to expectations and we can have spirited conversations - Pure Football - about what we feel needs to be done to right the ship. Considering that the team is sitting at 4-7 and the number of players performing at the replaceable level, I would tend to lean more toward the accuracy of the PFF Grades than not because there has to be a performance reason for our team sitting at a dismal 4-7 record. Thanks for the professional response.

A deflection of your own behavior.

More evidence that some are here to fight. Every freaking thread.

Aint no poster nowhere on the internet that has posted more about BM since he was slated to became an ex-Brown than Vers.

In fact the other day I googled Baker Mayfield and it came up with a bunch of links to "Versatile Dog"! He gone broke the dang internet.

Once again, back to News and Notes.

When you refuse to stop stirring the pot with worthless forum garbage and personal attacks at others, you have to expect return fire for your hatred efforts. Everyone else has moved on so Buckle up or shut up partner.

I still cant believe Ward grades so poorly

I think Ward has played very well the last two weeks.

News & Notes: Browns 'excited' to have Deshaun Watson back, but focus remains on Texans


The Browns are eager to play their first game with Watson but are otherwise keeping things normal in their preparation for the Texans
Nov 30, 2022 at 05:08 PM
Employee Headshots on June 24, 2021
Anthony Poisal
Staff Writer


Deshaun Watson took his first throws as the Browns' starting QB during the Browns' indoor practice Wednesday at CrossCountry Mortgage Campus.

On Sunday in Houston, he'll take his first throws in an actual game and make his Browns debut, a game that's been circled on the Browns' calendar all season once the league announced Watson would be suspended the first 11 games for violating the league's personal conduct policy. With Watson officially back, the Browns will look to expand their playbook on offense to maximize his wide array of skills — and the main goal, of course, is to build a winning streak in the final six games that could push them to the playoffs.

Watson has been able to practice with the Browns for the last two weeks, and the reviews from his teammates for how he's looked suggest Watson will be able to provide an immediate lift.

"He's special," RB Nick Chubb said. "He's a playmaker. He puts the ball exactly where he needs it to go. Guys like that. Guys are excited. We all are. We're ready."

While Watson's return has generated a bit of an extra buzz heading into Week 13, the Browns are keeping a normal vibe to the week inside the locker room. The focus is still on preparing for the Texans, whom the Browns aren't taking any less lightly because of their 1-9-1 record.

"It's an excitement for sure," LB Jeremiah Owusu-Koramoah said. "We're a diverse team. Watson provides a diverse aspect of the offense to be in, not a different type of system, but provide more diversity. It's an excitement. Is it a different vibe in reference to our intention? No, our intention is still to win, still to work hard and still to execute."

Head coach Kevin Stefanski echoed that sentiment Wednesday as well — a new era might be beginning, but it's otherwise the same team with the same mindset of taking the season one week at a time.

"For this football team, for Deshaun and for the offense in particular to your question, they need to focus on playing good football this week," he said. "The big picture of what that means and that type of thing, I don't think our guys are worried about that. We have to worry about our preparation this week and make sure that we have a good plan for Houston.


"We're excited that Deshaun is able to play for us. We're excited that he's back out there. The guys have enjoyed, like we mentioned, back in the room the last few weeks. Having him out on the field will bring an element to our offense that is different, but how different I think remains to be seen."



Defense improves in 'little increments'

The Browns will look to once again show strides on defense against Houston one week after they played one of their best games of the season against QB Tom Brady and the Buccaneers.

Cleveland held Tampa Bay to 17 points, tied for its second-lowest total in a game this season. The run defense, which has struggled to stay consistent this season, limited the Buccaneers to 96 total yards on the ground. Big plays were largely prevented, and a shutout in the fourth quarter and overtime enabled the Browns to come back late and grab the win.

"Communication was good," CB Denzel Ward said. "Playing fast out there, physical, and I think everybody's just on the same page. We were able to hold a great offense with Tom Brady and those guys, and hopefully we can build off that this week."

The group is still far from perfect and must show it can uphold those positives for a second consecutive week, but the improvements have contributed to the Browns' belief that they catch fire in the last six games.

"Yeah, little increments here and there," Owusu-Koramoah said. "We still have a lot of stuff to work on and a lot of mistakes to fix. From this point, yeah, I think we made some little adjustments, and we're getting better as time goes on."


Injury Updates

The Browns were missing just one player, TE David Njoku (knee), due to injury in practice Wednesday. Myles Garrett, Joel Bitonio, Jadeveon Clowney, Nick Chubb and Amari Cooper were all given rest days.

Stefanski said he wasn't going to rule out Njoku for Sunday's game, and said Garrett, who aggravated a shoulder injury last week, was "right where he's been" and was just receiving rest on the first practice day of the week.

"These guys, as you know, just played an overtime game on Sunday, so trying to be smart about what we do with the guys and make sure that they are fresh come Sunday," he said.


https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/browns-excited-deshaun-watson-back-texans

Could it be some of our rookie DL are playing better. We have about 4-5 young guys although I don't know how much talent and upside they have.

And Chubb has done this in 69 games ... all three RBs' higher on the Browns all time list have played twice as many games for the Browns ... the TD record is probably not attainable.

At least it sounds like the players are stoked, and they think he's ready to go. DW may surprise and come out firing on all cylinders.

I have to wonder if Winfrey’s play last game is a reason we looked better

A week ago, I posted my opinion on how the Browns were handling Winfrey's issues and maybe if Winfrey was burning energy "actually playing football"..it might be a more constructive way to approach the situation.

Maybe the Browns were willing to change their approach to see if it might yield a positive outcome.

I want to see more of Winfrey...

Yeah let’s hope he plays well and stays out of the doghouse the last month

This is cool.

Brissett is a good dude

I agree.

Anyone else expect the Browns to get annihilated/boatraced against the Texans on gameday?

Becauze I mean,
this will be the only game that will really matter to

that opponent in about
4 years

I think it'll take a half a hundred to beat the Texans, the Texans will be planning to put up half a hundred on the Browns
so the Brownz better be ready to put up a half a hundred on the texanz, they could loze 42- 47 like the chargerz and ravenz gamez of the last 2 yearz.

Have to meet fire with a fireball.

Its hard to root against him. No matter where he goes after the Browns, I will be pulling for him.

Stefanski would be smart to keep Brissett 'ready'...Watson is one play away from spending the rest of the season on IR.

Taking one season off without playing football, taking the hits and physical punishment, is a real risk...now multiply that risk by 2..

...it's been 2 seasons since he played and there is no way his body is prepared for the additional strain and punishment he could be subjected to.

Not hoping for it but pointing out the risk. Hopefully the OLine can keep him clean.

I think Stefanski is very intelligent and he will keep Jacoby ready. I do wonder how effective Watson will be. It's gotta be really hard to try and prepare one QB for a future game while getting the existing starter ready to play each week. It's wild that Stefanski receives so much criticism. He's been put in some tough situations and this one was as tough as it gets.

My opinion like others - is that if Woods and Stefanski had been unhappy with the DT's on the roster that they would have had Berry replace them. My opinion - like yours and many others - is that Berry and KS work harmoniously together and collaborate. Berry doesn't acquire, resign or cut players without input from KS.

All your childish, churlish talk of a link is a nonsense. Your talk of agendas and lying when posters offer different opinions on a community talk board is absurd. We all know you like to drink and sometimes that causes you to write some truly combatative bull crap on odd days, but at 9:50 a.m on a Friday I don't quite know how to explain away this bunch off hate you are spamming the board with today. Maybe take a breath and step away from the keyboard for a moment.

Edit - and to repeat, upgrades at DT were available on short term deals. Signing them would have in all likelihood put the Browns into a position - today - to contend for the division and a play off spot. Your argument that we didn't sign them because we weren't competitive is putting the cart before the horse, just one more example of you making excuses for KS nd the FO and declining to hold anyone accountable.

Ditto

Stefanski has to deal with all the issues he signed up for when he took the HCing job then expanded his responsibility to include being the Browns OC.

I can't feel sorry for him because it was his choice to spread himself so thin. The Browns have a qualified OC that Stefanski refuses to use. Splitting his time likely means Stefanski will likely struggle to do either the OC job or the HC job as well as he could.

If he decided focus all his attention on doing just one job to the best of his ability it might improve the team's chances of winning more games.

888...lets not forget, Berry is not on his own to anything he wants. Berry has a boss he works for and that chain of command figures in on every move the Browns make.

The decision not to sign DTs likely came from those at the very top of the franchise.

Not asking you to feel sorry for him. I gave my opinion and did so w/out attacking you.

888 is so stuck on his agenda that can't even keep his threads straight.

vers...I stated my opinion and did so without attacking you..why would you ever believe my response was directed at you..?

I stated my opinion and directed my criticism toward Stefanski...not you.

If someone has an opinion that is different than your opinion it does not mean you are being attacked. That is something you are trying manufacture out of thin air.

I wasn't saying that about you, mac. Sorry I wasn't clear. I started reading posts from the dudes I have on ignore about a week and a half ago and let's just say the constant attacks have fueled some of my recent responses.

But, I will apologize. I know you were not attacking me. I should have been more clear. I don't agree w/your opinion of Stefanski, but I can respect it.

I understand that you consider being called out on your double standards is something you think is an attack. The victim mentality here has been obvious for a very long time now. I said that I thought you may be lying about reading our posts. Turns out I was right. Thanks for manning up with the truth.

That just plain sucks. How can someone like that be officiating at the highest level?

Embedding things from Facebook isn't possible here, but this is worth the click-through.

Some Browns fan infiltrated a Ravens Facebook group and over time was elevated to being an Admin of the page, at which time he changed the name of the group.
The name cannot be changed again for 28 days


https://www.facebook.com/angrybrown...BZKAC4gbXnYqYdtH7W9ZqD1QwAHJh14iPNG4mfRl

I have two thoughts on that:

#1 - Where in the hell is Ski on the issue? Both during the game and in the PC? If such was happening to Watt, Tomlin would be all over it and the NFL world would know about it.

#2 - When it repeatedly happens again, MG needs to grab the blocker and throw him to the ground...repeatedly. I'd rather he get a penalty for THAT than jumping offside on 3rd & 4.

The Browns leadership is milqtoast. They are not only passive, they expect players to grin and bear things like this. KS had an opportunity to back his player earlier in the season with JJ3 who made an emotionally bone headed play. Instead he publicly questioned JJ3. As bad as that guy has been, he probably can't wait to get out of Cleveland.

But hey, according to Berry, JJ3 will have 6 more "opportunities" to see what he can do.

I"m still ticked that nothing was done about that cheap shot on Walker......laying on the ground injured while Okorafor of the Steelers jumped on his back after the play was over. It was one filthy assault and nobody did a damn thing. All Stefanski said was "I will let the league handle those things".

Johnson's cap number is 13.5M for 2023 and if cut, the Browns would have 12.6M in dead cap going against the total cap for 2023. I would suspect that a trade is out of the question so the Browns either eat the money or JJ3 will be on the team in 2023.

Rish, I think you are incorrect about Stefanski publicly questioning JJ. It was JJ who shared the story. And what Stefanski did in that situation was exactly the kind of reaction you had been clamoring for.

I think this may be the second time I got this wrong. Not sure why I keep misremembering it. For some reason, I thought Stefanski didn't back him in his presser.

I'm not necessarily clamoring for that specifically. What I want to see in general is strong leadership across the board, from the FO to the coaching staff to the players. I think Stefanski is a smart guy. I think there is a lot to like there. I can see why people like him and want him to stay the coach of the Browns. For me, I don't see strong leader in his makeup. I think the players look at him as the guy who occasionally talks in front of the team, sets the schedule, makes announcements, and calls the offensive plays on Sunday. A figurehead. A guy manning a spot. A head coach in name. Not a guy to rally the troops, inspire them to play beyond their best, not someone they would run through a wall for.

The one positive I can see in retaining Stefanski is he can stay this kind of bland figurehead with Watson and get the most out of him while the players will start playing for Watson and themselves. If Watson makes the players believe they have a chance, I think we will see an uptick in performance. I also believe that if Watson is the leader he is advertised to be, the players will want to play for him. Let's face it, this season is evidence the players aren't playing for their coaching staff. That's not going to happen with this staff.

At least we now have it in writing that the NFL refs subjectively apply the rules depending upon who you are.

Dobbs a Lion.

Good for Dobbs. I liked him and hope he gets the chance to see the field again at some point.

PFF GRADES THROUGH 12-weeks

TOTAL OFFENSIVE GRADES:
___________________________________1 of 31 players currently performing at Elite Level 90-100
Chubb - RB - 90.5 - 2nd of 62 - Georgia - 2018
___________________________________1 of 31 players currently performing at Pro Bowl Level 89-85
Bitonio - G - 87.7 - 2nd of 86 - Nevada - 2014
___________________________________5 of 31 players performing at Starter Level 84-70
Pocic - C - 83.0 - 3rd of 38 - LSU - 2017 (Injured - placed on IR)
Brissett - QB - 82.5 - 9th of 37 - NC State - 2016
Njoku - TE - 81.4 - 2nd of 71 - Miami, FL - 2017
Cooper - WR - 79.9 - 15th of 119 - Alabama - 2016
Teller - G - 72.0 - 13th of 86 - Virginia Tech - 2018
___________________________________11 of 31 players currently performing at Backup Level 69-60
Hunt - RB - 69.3 - 34th of 62 - Toledo - 2017
DPJ - WR - 68.6 - 48th of 119 - Michigan - 2020
Conklin - OT - 67.5 - 43rd of 77 - Michigan St - 2016
Froholdt - G - 66.2 - 28th of 86 - Arkansas - 2019
Johnson - RB - 65.9 - NR - South Florida - 2019
Forbes - G - 65.5 - NR - SE Missouri St - 2019
York - K - 63.4 - 30th of 44 - LSU - 2022
Wills - OT - 63.2 - 53rd of 77 - Alabama - 2020
Dunn - OT - 61.1 - NR - Maryland - 2017
Forristall - TE - 60.1 - NR - Alabama - 2021
Haeg - OT - 60.0 - NR - N Dakota St - 2016
___________________________________13 of 31 players currently performing at Replaceable Level 59-0
Brown - TE - 59.8 - 39th of 71 - Oregon - 2017
Bryant - TE - 58.1 - 46th of 71 - Florida Atlantic - 2020
Hubbard - T - 55.8 - NR - UAB - 2013
Watson - QB - 55.8 - NR - Clemson - 2017
Woods II - WR - 55.7 - NR - Oklahoma - 2022
Mancz - C - 55.1 - NR - Toledo - 2015
Hudson - OT - 55.0 - NR - Cincinnati - 2021
Bell - WR - 54.9 - 112th of 119 - Purdue - 2022
Schwartz - WR - 50.8 - NR - Auburn - 2021
Felton - WR - 50.6 - NR - UCLA - 2021
Ford - RB - 50.0 - NR - Cincinnati - 2022
James - TE - 42.2 - NR - Penn St - 2015
Rogers - WR - 00.0 - NR - Grambling St - 2016

TOTAL DEFENSIVE GRADE
___________________________________1 of 30 players currently performing at Elite Level 90-100
Garrett - Edge - 92.2 - 1st of 122 - Texas A&M - 2017
___________________________________0 of 30 players currently performing at Pro Bowl Level 89-85
___________________________________5 of 30 players currently performing at Starter Level 84-70
Walker - LB - 82.7 - NR - Northwestern - 2017 (injured, out for season)
Bojorquez - P - 76.6 - 7th of 32 - New Mexico - 2018
Emerson - CB - 71.1 - 24th of 119 - Mississippi St - 2022
Graham - CB - 70.7 - NR - Oregon - 2021
Clowney - Edge - 70.3 - 41st of 122 - South Carolina - 2014
___________________________________7 of 30 players currently performing at Backup Level 69-60
Takitaki - LB - 67.8 - 28th of 81 - BYU - 2019 (injured, out for season)
Newsome - CB - 66.2 - 45th of 119 - Northwestern - 2021
Fields -- LB - 64.6 - NR - West Virginia - 2021
D. Bell - S - 64.5 - NR - West Florida Argonauts - 2022
JOK - LB - 63.7 - 38th of 81 - Notre Dame - 2021
Kunaszyk - LB - 63.7 - NR - California - 2019
Stille - DT - 62.8 - NR - Nebraska - 2022
___________________________________17 of 30 players currently performing Replaceable Level 59-0
Delpit - S - 57.6 - 65th of 88 - LSU - 2020
Johnson - S - 57.3 - 64th of 88 - Boston Coll - 2017
Thomas - Edge - 57.3 - NR - Oklahoma - 2022
Winovich - Edge - 55.1 - NR - Michigan - 2019
Rochell - Edge - 52.9 - NR - Notre Dame - 2017 (Waived 11/12)
Perry - DT - 52.4 - NR - Illinois - 2022 (Waived 11/14)
Williams - CB - 52.2 - NR - LSU - 2019
Harrison - S - 49.4 - NR - Alabama - 2018
Bryan - DT - 49.0 - 93rd of 124 - Florida - 2018
Ward - CB - 47.6 - 107th of 119 - Ohio St - 2018
Winfrey - DT - 43.9 - 106th of 124 - Oklahoma - 2022
Green - CB - 42.0 - NR - Oklahoma St - 2020
Wright - Edge - 40.2 - 122nd of 122 - UAB - 2022
Jones - LB - 37.2 - NR - LSU - 2016
Phillips - LB - 36.7 - 78th of 81 - LSU - 2020 (injured, out for season)
Elliott - DT - 34.8 - 115th of 124 - Missouri - 2020
Togiai - DT - 30.4 - 121st of 124 - Ohio St - 2021

NR = Not Ranked due to not having snap minimum

SCALE:
100 - 90 = Elite level of play
85-89 = Pro Bowl level of play
84-70 = Starter level of play
69-60 = Backup level of play
59-0 = Replaceable level of play

Maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaan, are you trying to say Watson is replaceable after one game? Really? lmao

Are you saying that Watson's performance was anywhere near respectable? Watson's PFF Grade after 1 game is not a validation of his skill level, it's a grade of the performance that he demonstrated on the field. His level of actual performance was at the replaceable level. By your thinking, Watson should be classified as Elite whether his level of play dictates that or not? Excuses aside, and OMG I know there's a bunch of excuses, the level of play demonstrated by Watson in his first game back after 700 days was graded out at 55.8 which is unacceptable play from a QB and a starting point for where he is right now. Now if Watson's performance against the worst team in the NFL is acceptable for you then so be it, that's your opinion. The PFF Grade earned for his performance is what it is, a snapshot of his actual performance on the field, nothing more - nothing less.

Browns claim Jaelon Darden, place Anthony Schwartz (concussion) on IR.

Darden is a small/fast WR and return prospect, and the Browns obviously view him as worth a shot.

Lmao. Don't have a meltdown, steve. His play was certainly unacceptable in his first game after not playing for almost two full years. But he was considered elite before, and there should be a little leeway to get back to his best form. Maybe he won't, or maybe he will but reacting like he's replaceable after one game is hilarious. I mean, seriously, it's not even in the realm of possibilities. Now, of course, if he stinks the rest of the year, then we should be crapping our pants.

OCD, you must be mistaken or something to assume that I had anything to do with Watson being in the replaceable level of the PFF. Any QB that performs at the 55.8 grade level is in the replaceable level. That's not a shot at Watson, it's just where his lack luster performance has him within the scale. It's no different than with Ward. He supposedly received a mega contract because he was playing elite according to Berry. He's sucking eggs this year and has had concussion issues and certainly not going to be replaced as long as Berry is here but his performance on the field none the less through 12 games grades out at 47.6 and ranked 107th of 119 CB's ranked. PFF doesn't take into consideration playing to get the rust off or in Wards case a concussion. Anyway, there was nothing I did to place Watson where his performance placed him.

Straight to the IR with a concussion? I don't believe I've ever seen that before.

I guess there's a possibility we may see him in the final game this season. If not, I wish him well in his future endeavors. I don't think a career in the NFL is in the cards.