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Posted By: THROW LONG The Watson Trade continued - 01/22/23 01:30 AM
Originally posted by Eotab: from page 8.

The trade is why Kevin Stefanski will not be considered to get fired this year. He is a terrible HC, Oh right he won HC of the year in a year that there was not much coaching because of Covid and his ONE GAME OF FAME winning a Playoff game for our Browns...oh wait he could not coach that game cause of Covid. But his glaring weaknesses popped up in all our losses - His desire to pass, pass, and pass so that for example in our last game. The best player on O (not Watson) is Chubb. He ran 12 times for 77 yds a fantastic 6.5 yds per carry. But Stef is closely linked to Watson. We fear the only thing that can make this trade worse than what it is would be to lose Watson after his 5 year contract is up.

When the trade was made I looked at Watson and his incredible stats in 2020 what really bothered me was after having those stats the teams record was 4-12 terrible just terrible I think it was 4-10 under Watson as he might have missed 2 games??? that bothered me a lot.

Well I tried to tell all this was not a Watson vs. Mayfield thread but some just cant let it go. This was about THE TRADE which had Watson involved and his play is in question as it must be not good but GREAT to start justifying this Trade. Have a happy New year everyone and who will you be rooting for in the playoffs? KC? Bills? Cowboys? Hey at least we got the draft to look forward to...OH WAIT no we don't.

end @uote.

Well they have Watson now, and he ain't missing anymore time and the future is bright.
I wonder where DW will rank among @b's in the AFC next year.
Is he better than Trever Lawrence today, and then, what happens on the Titans and Colts, Will the Texans have a franchise @b in the near future, so would DW rank in the top ten of AFC @b's? in 23, 24.
Posted By: Damanshot Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/22/23 02:19 PM
The Future is bright?

Based on what?
Posted By: Day of the Dawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 01:08 AM
Originally Posted by Damanshot
The Future is bright?

Based on what?

Based on the fact this franchise has a franchise QB going into the offseason for the first time since the end of the 1992 season. When you have a QB then it should make it much easier to build the team around.

Since Bernie Kosar the team has always had to explore all options. Now it is what is the best way to build around him. I think that qualifies as the future is bright.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 01:16 AM
The future is bright b/c they, the team, landed their trade, they went all in on a big @uarterback and he ended up here, not only that,
but, after November the massage lawsuit stuff @uieted down relative to before, and even Jimmeh Haslam himself said in an interview that he hopes DW is here for a few years, or many years, I forget the exact word.
They could have went all in and ended up missing out on DW for DW going to a different team, but they didn't, so,
the team has this ALLEGED top guy Alleged franchise @uarterback.
I don't think it was the "worst trade ever" even if I think it was a bad one, and hard to swallow.

Today, they already, suffered through one of three first round picks being gone, there are 2 more to absorb not having.
2 more drafts without a first, this April and next April, by twenty five... whew, the Browns would have a first, probably a top ten, haha.

The bright part of the future is Watson is on the team, he's not in jail, or another only in Cleveland scenario.
he didn't end a year b/c he ran a 40 in no shoes, or crash his motorcycle, or whatever, YET
imo,
THAT is the bright part of the future, you have a GUY
NOW, you have to find something to put around him, and that can make a play more than once a month.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 01:26 AM
Based on the Browns have won seven plus games in 3 straight years... given the track record...
of course they can't help but rebuild,
this time the D coordinator, and ... ? more to come? they can't help but rebuild, the do almost every year.

Maybe this next years' first year plan will be better than last years' first year plan.
Posted By: Damanshot Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by Day of the Dawg
Originally Posted by Damanshot
The Future is bright?

Based on what?

Based on the fact this franchise has a franchise QB going into the offseason for the first time since the end of the 1992 season. When you have a QB then it should make it much easier to build the team around.

Since Bernie Kosar the team has always had to explore all options. Now it is what is the best way to build around him. I think that qualifies as the future is bright.

What you mean is that we have a former franchise QB... But that by no means means he's going to be a Franchise QB going forward. No guarantees.... based on what we saw of him this past season, there are simply no guarantees...,.,
Posted By: Damanshot Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 12:36 PM
TL, I hope you are right.. I've just now seen any proof of that yet.
Posted By: Dawgs4Life Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 12:46 PM
This is where I am too. I was really underwhelmed by Watson, even by the end of the 6 games. He looked really hesitant in the pocket, had a much weirder throwing motion than I recalled, and seemed like he was having trouble processing the game
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 01:15 PM
Originally Posted by Damanshot
Originally Posted by Day of the Dawg
Originally Posted by Damanshot
The Future is bright?

Based on what?

Based on the fact this franchise has a franchise QB going into the offseason for the first time since the end of the 1992 season. When you have a QB then it should make it much easier to build the team around.

Since Bernie Kosar the team has always had to explore all options. Now it is what is the best way to build around him. I think that qualifies as the future is bright.

What you mean is that we have a former franchise QB... But that by no means means he's going to be a Franchise QB going forward. No guarantees.... based on what we saw of him this past season, there are simply no guarantees...,.,

True. Nothing is guaranteed. Joe Burrough might never play another good game in his life.

He probably will, and so is the probability Watson does as well. Past performance usually dictates future performance until a person gets past their prime years, but we aren't there yet.

I think the chances are very good that Watson is going to be just fine moving forward.
Posted By: Day of the Dawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 01:48 PM
Originally Posted by Damanshot
Originally Posted by Day of the Dawg
Originally Posted by Damanshot
The Future is bright?

Based on what?

Based on the fact this franchise has a franchise QB going into the offseason for the first time since the end of the 1992 season. When you have a QB then it should make it much easier to build the team around.

Since Bernie Kosar the team has always had to explore all options. Now it is what is the best way to build around him. I think that qualifies as the future is bright.

What you mean is that we have a former franchise QB... But that by no means means he's going to be a Franchise QB going forward. No guarantees.... based on what we saw of him this past season, there are simply no guarantees...,.,

I hope you really don't believe what you are writing. Watson was playing this year with players that never played with him in the past. Even Bitonio said the line will need to change their blocking strategy because of how he holds the ball and then tries to make plays with his feet. The receivers will need to learn how to break off their routes and get on the same page with Watson when he leaves the pocket. These are all things that was not going to get worked out in the final 6 games. Besides that Watson lead the team to a 3-3 mark while shaking the rust off and playing with players that he was unfamiliar with and that were unfamiliar with him. Also, Stefanski's playbook. Both Watson and Stefanski were feeling each other out to see what plays fit Watson's strength and what does not. This offseason will be huge for this team. I fully expect Watson to get back to the form of a QB that beat the Bills in the playoffs and built an early lead on the Chiefs in the 2nd round. A QB that threw for over 700 yards in 2 playoff games with zero int's. Those 6 shake the rust off games were huge for he and Stefanski. And this offseason will be huge for the Browns.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by Dawgs4Life
This is where I am too. I was really underwhelmed by Watson, even by the end of the 6 games. He looked really hesitant in the pocket, had a much weirder throwing motion than I recalled, and seemed like he was having trouble processing the game

Yes - I'm there with you. On both Watson and Stefanski. Major concerns. . . I believe it's equally probable that Watson reverts to very close to his best years in HOU - and Stefanski becomes/confirms he is a very good HC. As it is that: Watson will never be the QB he was in HOU, or that his stats in HOU were distorted and misleading - and the reality is he's an average to above average QB that's exceedingly athletic, throws a pretty ball but can't process fast enough. And that KS is an average/below average HC. I think Jim Donovan expressed it best when reviewing end of yer performance: Watson had one good half in 6 games, that was disappointing. We don't know what next year holds. The reality is we just have to hope and stay positive. Well, we can choose to try to stay positive or not... up to the individual and there's nothing wrong with either perspectives (positive or negative) in my eyes.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 02:05 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
True. Nothing is guaranteed. Joe Burrough might never play another good game in his life.

The obvious difference being that within the last two years Burrows has played at a consistently high level. Watson has not - in terms of real risk and real probability, one player represents real risk of not being a FQB the other not so much.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 02:12 PM
Don't forget i said that Burrough probably will play more good games.

While there may be more risk that Watson won't regain what he had, it isn't a big enough risk to spend the off-season fretting about it.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 03:55 PM
It doesn't do any good to fret about it though I'm sure some will. I will point out that many on this very board said he would come back rusty and as his starts went on he would improve and begin to look like his old self. That's not what happened. Though there were a few slight improvements here and there, you wouldn't have been able to tell by his last start. In his sixth start he threw 2 int's and the Browns O could only muster 14 points.

I certainly wouldn't try to draw any final conclusions based on that. But as of now the process hasn't moved along as quickly as most on here thought it would.
Posted By: Damanshot Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by Day of the Dawg
Originally Posted by Damanshot
Originally Posted by Day of the Dawg
Originally Posted by Damanshot
The Future is bright?

Based on what?

Based on the fact this franchise has a franchise QB going into the offseason for the first time since the end of the 1992 season. When you have a QB then it should make it much easier to build the team around.

Since Bernie Kosar the team has always had to explore all options. Now it is what is the best way to build around him. I think that qualifies as the future is bright.

What you mean is that we have a former franchise QB... But that by no means means he's going to be a Franchise QB going forward. No guarantees.... based on what we saw of him this past season, there are simply no guarantees...,.,

I hope you really don't believe what you are writing. Watson was playing this year with players that never played with him in the past. Even Bitonio said the line will need to change their blocking strategy because of how he holds the ball and then tries to make plays with his feet. The receivers will need to learn how to break off their routes and get on the same page with Watson when he leaves the pocket. These are all things that was not going to get worked out in the final 6 games. Besides that Watson lead the team to a 3-3 mark while shaking the rust off and playing with players that he was unfamiliar with and that were unfamiliar with him. Also, Stefanski's playbook. Both Watson and Stefanski were feeling each other out to see what plays fit Watson's strength and what does not. This offseason will be huge for this team. I fully expect Watson to get back to the form of a QB that beat the Bills in the playoffs and built an early lead on the Chiefs in the 2nd round. A QB that threw for over 700 yards in 2 playoff games with zero int's. Those 6 shake the rust off games were huge for he and Stefanski. And this offseason will be huge for the Browns.

I absolutely believe there are no guarantees! Look, I want Watson to do well. If he does, that means the Browns have a shot. But there are NO guarantees... it's that simple. And again, if you base it on his performance this year, there is nothing to get excited about.


As I've said a million times, I want to be wrong.., but I don't know if I will be. As for this off season being huge for the Browns, I think you mean to say, you HOPE it will be huge for the Browns...
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 09:03 PM
Based on most of the QB play I saw this past weekend we need a high end QB to compete for a Super Bowl. That's why we went out and traded for DW. Let's hope he can get back to playing like one.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 10:01 PM
If you're referring to the AFC then that would appear to be true, this year. If you look at the NFC though, SFO certainly doesn't qualify as having a high end QB and though Hurts is having a fabulous year, he was the 21st rated passer in 2021 and one year doesn't qualify you as being high end passer though it looks very promising. SFO is proving that way of thinking is not totally accurate. I think Watson will be a valuable asset and will improve the QB play but if the other many issues are not addressed, he's not taking this team to any Super Bowl. Just remember, in 2020 he was the top-rated passer on a 4-12 Texans team that had Cooks, Fuller, and Cobb as WR's with All Pro LT Tunsil and a defense led by All Pro J.J. Watt.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/23/23 11:55 PM
Thanks for posting the stuff about Watson's WRs and JJ Watt. Let's take a closer look at those guys.


Fuller had 53 receptions for 879 yards. In the following two years, he has a grand total of 4 receptions for 26 yards.

Cooks had 81 catches w/Watson for 1150 yds. Since that time, he has averaged 73.5 receptions per year and averaged 868 yds per year.

Cobb secured 38 receptions for 441 yds w/Watson. He has averaged 31 catches and 396 yds w/Aaron Rodgers in GB.

All three guys did better w/Watson than they did w/out him. Perspective is a cool thing.

Regarding JJ Watt. Anyone remember the apology he issued to Watson? Here is an article about it.



Texans' J.J. Watt apologizes to Deshaun Watson for 'wasting' 2020 season
The Texans went 4-12
Chris Bengel

By Chris Bengel
Jan 5, 2021 at 1:36 pm ET


After registering double-digit wins in each of the prior two seasons, the Houston Texans struggled during the 2020 campaign, finishing at 4-12 record. Late in the season, star defensive end J.J. Watt was very outspoken about the play of the Texans, and that didn't change shortly after the team's 2020 season came to a close.

As Watt and Texans quarterback Deshaun Watson were walking off the field on Sunday following a 41-38 loss to the Titans, Watt apologized to Watson and said that he was sorry for "wasting" one of Watson's years.

"I'm sorry. We wasted one of your years. I mean, we should have 11 wins," Watt said.



While the Texans did make the playoffs a season ago, the franchise underwent significant changes last offseason. Houston elected to trade star wideout DeAndre Hopkins to the Arizona Cardinals in exchange for running back David Johnson. While Johnson did register 1,005 scrimmage yards this season, Hopkins was sorely missed. Also, Will Fuller missed the final four games of the season after being suspended six games for performance-enhancing substances.

The big move was that the team fired head coach Bill O'Brien just four games into the season. Romeo Crennel served as the interim head coach following O'Brien's departure.


It's possible that this could be Watt's final year with the Texans. He is scheduled to make $17.5 million in 2021, but it's possible that the team could elect to trade or release him if they're in a rebuilding phase.


https://www.cbssports.com/nfl/news/...-as-eagles-49ers-brace-for-nfc-slugfest/
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 12:09 AM
Has anyone ever seen a race car driver lose their edge? They drive slower and process everything slower than everyone else because they are scared.

Watson looks like he lost his edge.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 01:13 AM
I don't know if what you're saying is true but even if DW is a little "scared" he'll be better than any other QB we've had since "99. All those QB's were " SCARY" eek
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 01:24 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
All three guys did better w/Watson than they did w/out him. Perspective is a cool thing.

And yet they were still 4-12.
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 01:46 AM
Originally Posted by steve0255
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
All three guys did better w/Watson than they did w/out him. Perspective is a cool thing.

And yet they were still 4-12.

regardless of the record. We are still in last place in the division.

Since 2007:

We have finished
1st | 0 times
2nd | 1 time - 2007
3rd | 4 times - 2018, 2019, 2020, and 2021
4th | 15 times (not listing them out. it would take too long)
Posted By: jaybird Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 03:23 AM
Originally Posted by steve0255
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
All three guys did better w/Watson than they did w/out him. Perspective is a cool thing.

And yet they were still 4-12.

Texans had no offensive weapons in the 4-12 season other than DW and Cooks... they made a horrible trade for Hopkins.... Fuller I think they cut or was hurt all year, and they had no running back... they fired BOB after four games and RAC took over... they were 4th in passing offense... 31st in rushing... and their defense was trash..... pass defense was 24th and rushing was 31st.... that season wasn't DW's fault...

Edit: Looked it up... Fuller was suspended for part of the season...
Posted By: ScottPlayersFacemask Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 03:25 AM
Fuller started/played in 11 games. He was out the second game, came back the next game, and then was suspended week 12 through 16.

Cooks started/played 15 games, so he at least played in every game except one.

Cobb played in 10 games (started 2). He went to the IR in week 11.
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 03:42 AM
They also had David Johnson who had about 700 yards in 12 games.

Good Ole Duke Johnson had 235.

The achilles heel for the team was RAC their head coach when they went 4-12.
Posted By: jaybird Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 04:10 AM
Originally Posted by superbowldogg
They also had David Johnson who had about 700 yards in 12 games.

Good Ole Duke Johnson had 235.

The achilles heel for the team was RAC their head coach when they went 4-12.

well... they were 0-4 when RAC took over... their defense was trash, so I guess you can blame RAC.... DW played well that season, but they have a crappy running game and horrible defense... they gave up almost 30 points a game that year...
Posted By: FloridaFan Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 11:55 AM
So in summary, we've concluded that ONE man does not make a TEAM.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 05:20 PM
As always, you move the goal posts instead of just admitting you were wrong. There was no talk of "demanding a trade" in anything steve and I were debating.

steve mentioned the Texans WRs and JJ Watt. I countered w/the 3 WRs production w/and w/out Watson to demonstrate that they performed better w/Watson than they did w/out him. I also included an apology from JJ Watt, whose Texan defense was beyond terrible.

No one said a word about what Watson did a year later until your big mouth showed up and attempted to change the narrative. Go find another topic to try and start a fight.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 05:30 PM
I understand how you would like to sidestep and blame me for that. But let's look at a quote you posted from J.J. you used in an attempt to make it sound like the team let watson down. As a matter of fact that was the entire content of your post....

Quote
"I'm sorry. We wasted one of your years. I mean, we should have 11 wins," Watt said.

So in your attempt to walk away from that and admit that watson did even worse than that the very next season, you blame someone else for pointing that out. Same as it ever was.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 05:34 PM
The new album just dropped!

[Linked Image from i.imgflip.com]
Posted By: FATE Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 05:35 PM
With the hit single "Yet You Refuse".
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 05:50 PM
Awe. And you're joining in the choir when what I posted was spot on. You do realize that the things your're posting only serve to embolden me even more, right?

rofl

Mindless memes are a sign you have no game.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 05:51 PM
Originally Posted by FATE
With the hit single "Yet You Refuse".

Which is what you and some of your cronies always do. Thanks for encouraging me BTW.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 05:57 PM
Quote
You do realize that the things your're posting only serve to embolden me even more, right?

If you want to continue looking like a fool, that's your issue, not ours. But you do you.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
Quote
You do realize that the things your're posting only serve to embolden me even more, right?

If you want to continue looking like a fool, that's your issue, not ours. But you do you.

So those who have no legitimate response and only have the ability to attack the messenger are the brainiacs in your world?

rofl

Having an alternative reality is a real thing with some of you isn't it?
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by steve0255
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
All three guys did better w/Watson than they did w/out him. Perspective is a cool thing.

And yet they were still 4-12.

Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
As always, you move the goal posts instead of just admitting you were wrong. There was no talk of "demanding a trade" in anything steve and I were debating.

steve mentioned the Texans WRs and JJ Watt. I countered w/the 3 WRs production w/and w/out Watson to demonstrate that they performed better w/Watson than they did w/out him. I also included an apology from JJ Watt, whose Texan defense was beyond terrible.

No one said a word about what Watson did a year later until your big mouth showed up and attempted to change the narrative. Go find another topic to try and start a fight.

It doesn't take a dummy to understand what you are trying to prove by saying the WR performed better with Watson than without. I love how you try to spin the topic to match your agenda of Watson raising the play of those around him. However, you still didn't answer the question about his elite status only delivering a 4-12 record.

I'm also a little tired of the false claim that Watson had no weapons in 2020. Compared to the Browns weapons in 2022:

Texans #1 WR Fuller had 8 TD's in 11 games started (.73 per gm) - Browns #1 WR Cooper had 9 TD's in 17 games started (.53 per gm)
Texans #2 WR Cooks had 6 Td's in 15 games started (.40 per gm) - Browns #2 WR DPJ had 3 TD's in 17 games played (.18 per gm)
Texans #3 WR's had 6 TD's in 16 games played (.38 per gm) - Browns #3 WR's hade 0 TD's in 17 games played (.00 per gm)
Texans TE's accounted for 7 TD's in 16 games (,44 per gm) - Browns TE's accounted for 5 TD's in 17 games played (.29 per gm)
Texans RB's accounted for 7 rushing TD's and 4 receiving TD's in 16 games (.69 per gm) - Browns RB's accounted for 15 rushing TD's and 2 receiving TD's in 17 games (1.00 per gm)
Texans TD Red Zone Pct 54.0% - Browns TD Red Zone Pct 53.6
Texans Sacks 49 (3.06 per game) - Browns Sacks 44 (2.59 per gm) [Watson had 20 sacks in 6 games for 3.33 per gm]

Every skilled offensive position on the Texans in 2020 outperformed the Browns 2022 skilled positions in scoring except at RB.

Here's a couple of other nuggets to chew on:

Watson's average sacks per game in 2022 @ 3.33 is the highest rate of sacks per game by a Browns QB with a minimum of 5 starts since 2016 when GriffinIII had 4.40 per in 5 games.

The 2022 Browns Red Zone offense of 53.6% was the lowest it's been since 2017 when it was 48.7% with Kiser as the starting QB.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 07:16 PM
Let's break this down to what he is really saying. He's saying watson is better than Tyrod Taylor and Davis Mills. Which would be very hard to disagree with. Those were the Texans starting QB's in 2021 when watson refused to play for the team. I'm not so sure that's a big talking point however.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 08:24 PM
Cobb played the last two years w/Aaron Rodgers in GB.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 08:37 PM
We all knew what the record is. You are bringing it up now because your deception did not work. The articles are out there and I've posted them on here. Houston's defense was atrocious and their OL was bad. That's not news, but you want others to know the truth.

Here are few stats for you.

Defense:

DVOA: 30th

Pass D: 29th

NY/A: 28th

Run DVOA: 29th

Yds. per Carry: 32nd



Let's look at the OL

Watson completed 78.42% of his passes from 0-10 yards, 64.19% of his passes from 10-20 yards, and 50% of his passes from 20+. In every segment of the field he was nearly automatic. He’s one of the best intermediate and deep passers in the NFL at only the age of 25. He’s only going to get better.

The pass protection was a problem again this season though. After hoping Houston finally found an offensive line configuration that would last throughout the season, the Texans started five different offensive lines. Max Scharping was weak and unprepared to play. He was benched for Senio Kelemete and Brent Qvale, and it took injuries to each to get him back in the game. Injuries to Tytus Howard and Laremy Tunsil put the tackle position out of sorts at times too.

Watson was sacked 49 times, he was pressured on 26.6% of his dropbacks (9th highest), and was hit 50 times (13th most). Of course, part of this is the result of how Watson plays the game. The spectacular has its drawbacks. But Watson didn’t hold onto the ball for an egregious amount of time. The offensive line that had three first round picks, three second round picks, and $32 million invested into it, came together to create a run offense that finished last in DVOA, and provided below average pass protection once again. Peace out Mike Devlin.


https://www.battleredblog.com/2021/2/18/22289613/a-look-at-the-numbers-from-the-texans-2020-season


That same article had this to say about Watson's season.

Quote
Speaking of ridiculous, Watson was one of the five best quarterbacks in the NFL, even after losing a Hall of Fame wide receiver, playing behind an offensive line that still couldn’t pick up rudimentary blitzes, having zero run game, and dealing with wide receiver injuries and Will Fuller’s suspension. Despite these manacles, Watson finished fifth in DVOA, DYAR, seventh in touchdowns thrown, and led the NFL in passing yards.

By segment, there wasn’t a hole in Watson’s game. He improved in every facet as a passer.

Stop trying to trick people. It's getting on people's nerves and some don't even want to post due the nonsense you--and a few others---continue to spew.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
It's getting on people's nerves and some don't even want to post due the nonsense you--and a few others---continue to spew.

rofl

Were you appointed as their spokesperson or did you take on that position of your own volition? I'm guessing it was the latter. I do understand how you find a point of view that questions the QB, HC or many others at any level whatsoever quite offensive however. You show it on a consistent basis.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 09:58 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Watson was sacked 49 times, he was pressured on 26.6% of his dropbacks (9th highest), and was hit 50 times (13th most). Of course, part of this is the result of how Watson plays the game.


Vers, what's the matter with you? The whole point of my post was that Watson performed a hundred times better in 2020 with the Texans than he did in his 6 games here. He had better weapons than what the Browns have currently, and the stats prove that - even so, he was only able to generate a 4-12 record. You can point to the defense all you want but the defense didn't have anything to do with the Texans poor red zone pct.

You also want to blame the sacks on his Texans line and maybe that has some validity but then explain why his sack per game average is higher in Cleveland with the supposed best OL in the NFL? FACT: Watson had the highest sack per game average of any Browns QB since 2016. Go ahead and whip out that QB excuse jug now that has only been reserved for Watson.

While you dig through that excuse jar, see if you can find one for the Browns red zone pct in 2022 that was the lowest it's been since 2017 with that then elite QB Kiser - lol.

Look, I understand you're a rah rah guy that wants to excuse every weak point the Browns have (like what's been going on for decades), but after sporting 2 losing seasons in a row - every player, coach and FO person should be heavily critiqued. This team, that has never even won the AFC North, is never going to get to that level with continually failing to address the same issues that are glaring reasons for their continued failure. On offense, the WR room is still weak, LT is a serious issue, center is a big question mark, questions of Chubb's fit in a passing offense, play calling continues to be suspect and the red zone offense is putrid after recording its worse percentage in 5-years. That's all before we even get to Watson's unexpected slow start and continued sack issues.

Defensively, except for Garrett, Emerson and Newsome, every other defensive player should be on notice because they completely failed to live up to expectations. Firing Woods might have been needed but unless the Browns do some serious upgrades on defense the results won't be much different. You can continue your rants and lashing out at other Browns fans, but the same team issues talked about in this forum in 2021 that you wanted to ignore are again being talked about in 2022. “Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.”
Posted By: Clemdawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 10:11 PM
Quote
I will point out that many on this very board said he would come back rusty and as his starts went on he would improve and begin to look like his old self.


For the record, I was one who thought that we'd see rust for the remainder of the season, and that it would be next season that we'd see the old pre-break Watson. Now, it remains to be seen if next year DW will return to form, but his performance this year didn't surprise me at all. 2 years is a very long time to be away.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 10:22 PM
"every other defensive player should be on notice because they completely failed to live up to expectations."


Before bashing players and lumping them into categories perhaps it would be important to know

what they were asked to do in the schemes.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 10:26 PM
Here is some rah rah:

"Despite back-to-back losing seasons, NFL executives around the league are still high on the Cleveland Browns and their chances in 2023. ESPN surveyed NFL executives around the league on a wide variety of questions, one of which was which teams would break through in 2023. The Browns, along with the Detroit Lions, received the most votes among those surveyed:

Regular season record in the first 3 seasons as head coach:

Kyle Shanahan 23-26
Sean McDermott 25-23
Pete Carroll 25-23
Kevin Stefanski 26-24
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 10:50 PM
I did not dig through anything. I quoted the stats and comments that appeared in a linked article.

If anyone has any doubts about Watson's performance in 2020 and who is right between steve and I, just let me know I will post more articles.......many of which I have already posted.

One more thing for you common sense folks. Why in God's name were so many teams so interested in acquiring Watson if he wasn't all that, especially considering his legal issues?
Posted By: lampdogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 10:58 PM
Because he’s a top 5 QB, a potential franchise-changer. And that’s just how it is.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 10:59 PM
Exactly.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/24/23 11:02 PM
Here is an article that I posted before. Let's just stop this nonsense that Watson wasn't all that in 2020 and his WRs made him. It's a better read if you click on the link.


Galina: Why Deshaun Watson was the NFL's best quarterback in 2020

Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, USA; Houston Texans quarterback Deshaun Watson (4) warms up before playing the Pittsburgh Steelers at Heinz Field. Mandatory Credit: Charles LeClaire-USA TODAY Sports

By Seth Galina
Feb 15, 2021
As much as we all try to separate the performances of different positions from their teammates in order to isolate production, players with stronger surroundings will always fare better than those without.

We’ve spent the past month praising Aaron Rodgers for his MVP 2020 season and bowing down to Tom Brady for his playoff run to a seventh Lombardi Trophy. And why shouldn’t we? Those two were the highest-graded quarterbacks of the entire 2020 season. They deserve praise. One could even argue that Rodgers’ season was one of the great quarterback campaigns of the PFF era (since 2006).


Of course, both signal-callers played on teams that allowed them to showcase their talents. Brady’s Buccaneers happened to boast a top-five defense to continually keep him ahead of the game in terms of field position and game state. Plus, he had the best receiving corps in the league.

Rodgers was given opportunities to find open receivers via Matt LaFleur’s wide-zone and play-action scheme, and he had arguably the best receiver in the league in Davante Adams. It’s hard to go back and look through the list of the great quarterback seasons of the past 15 years and find examples where quarterbacks did not have other elite factors going in their favor.

That’s why I’m ready to make the argument that Deshaun Watson was not only the best quarterback of 2020, but also that he had the best season of the past 15 years — and maybe ever.



Absolutely nothing went the Texans' way last year, and Watson still routinely played at an elite level. Former Houston head coach and general manager Bill O’Brien traded his team's best receiver, yet Watson played better than ever before. O’Brien was fired midseason, but it didn’t phase the quarterback. He played with a terrible defense, a terrible running game and no star receivers and put up the 19th-best regular-season passing grade of the PFF era (91.2). He’s one of 29 quarterbacks to finish a regular season with a 90.0-plus passing grade.

Those 29 quarterback seasons are generally regarded as the greatest individual campaigns of the past 15 years. Tom Brady’s 2007, Peyton Manning’s 2013 and Patrick Mahomes’ 2018 are all included in this group alongside Watson’s 2020.

Better surrounding factors allow a quarterback to stay away from negative plays. Being down in games forces the quarterback to attempt more difficult passes. Not having a running game puts the quarterback in more ominous down and distances. Not having receivers who can separate forces the quarterback to hold on to the ball.

And yet, Watson torched the league despite having nothing going in his favor.

We can start with the overall records for each of those 29 quarterbacks. If a signal-caller is having an elite year, chances are his team is doing well. Twenty-six of the 29 quarterbacks’ teams won at least 10 games that season. The quarterback is the most important factor, but you can assume that other factors were involved to get to that plateau of wins.

Twenty-eight of the 29 quarterbacks’ teams finished the season at .500 or above. The only team to finish below that threshold is the 2020 Houston Texans and their four wins. Better quarterback play has resulted in wins more often than not. Watson, even while being a part of this elite club, did not have any team support.

For starters, he didn’t have much of a defense. The Texans finished 31st in defensive expected points added per play in 2020. Only the 2006 Indianapolis Colts defense was worse from a league ranking perspective, as they finished 32nd the year that Manning carried them to a Super Bowl win.

Worst defense EPA ranks among 29 QBs with 90+ season grade in PFF era
QB Defense EPA Rank
25. Tom Brady, 2011 28th
26. Patrick Mahomes, 2018 28th
27. Andrew Luck, 2016 29th
28. Deshaun Watson, 2020 31st
29. Peyton Manning, 2006 32nd
Watson is also part of a group of 10 players who notched 90.0-plus passing grades despite their defenses finishing below 20th in the league in EPA. Philip Rivers’ 2010 season in San Diego topped the list, as the Chargers' defense finished second in the league that season.

The Texans also couldn’t run the ball. They finished 31st in 2020 in EPA per rushing play. The next worst unit was the 2019 Seattle Seahawks, who finished 28th in the league while Russell Wilson still produced a 90.0-plus grade. In fact, in 17 of the 29 seasons, the rushing EPA per play of the elite quarterback's team was in the top half of the league. At the top is Manning's 2007 Colts rushing attack, which finished first that year.

When it comes to surrounding talent in the passing game, Watson doesn’t fare as poorly but does find himself in the bottom-third in a couple of categories. The Texans' team pass-blocking grade ranked 19th among the 29 seasons. Aaron Rodgers’ 2014 season was at the top with a 92.1 team pass-blocking grade. And unsurprisingly, Rivers’ 2018 season was at the bottom with a 59.7 cumulative grade.

The 2020 Texans team receiving grade was 20th in this group. Andrew Luck’s 2016 season saw the Colts finish with a 75.5 receiving grade, the lowest in the sample, while the 2016 Falcons and Matt Ryan’s great season finished at the top.

From a macro scheme perspective, we can look at play-action rate and screen rate to see how protected these quarterbacks were. Play-action passes, whether they be RPOs or otherwise, tend to define the reads for a quarterback and create distractions for defenders that a regular dropback does not.

PFF has play-action data going back to the 2012 season, and Watson again comes in pretty low. For this, I used league rank in terms of percentage of throws that were off play action because of how play-action rates have risen throughout the NFL over time. The 2020 Texans sat at 28th in the league this season in play-action rate. Only Brady’s 2020 season and Ben Roethlisberger’s 2015 season were lower relative to the league at the time. The 2016 Falcons finished first in the NFL in play-action rate that year.

PFF's screen data goes back to 2011, and it provides similar results. Watson’s Texans placed 21st in the league in screen rate — 17th-lowest of the 23 players in this selection. Rodgers' 2020 season had him throw the second-highest rate of screens in the league, while Rivers’ 2018 was last at a league rank of 29th that year.

Watson’s 2020 season is at or near the bottom in almost all team categories. River’s 2018 campaign is rough from a scheme and offensive line perspective, but he played with a top-10 running game and defense. Luck’s 2016 season and Wilson’s 2019 campaign are almost as rough as Watson’s 2020.

A big part of PFF grades is the opportunity to have negative plays. If you are 2007 Tom Brady throwing to Randy Moss, your opportunity for negative plays is small. If you are 2016 Matt Ryan, who is not being asked to perform straight dropbacks often, your opportunity for negative plays is smaller. Rodgers playing behind David Bakhtiari, Josh Sitton, T.J. Lang, Bryan Bulaga and Corey Linsley in 2014 limited the pressure he faced, and therefore, there was less of a chance to have a negative play.

It’s not to say those seasons aren't great — they are, undoubtedly — but Watson’s season, without any semblance of team help and still grading at that incredible level, might be the most impressive.

I’m less concerned with the supposed scheme issues than the talent surrounding Watson. The complaints about lack of play-action chances are definitely founded in reality. With Bill O’Brien coming from coaching Tom Brady, that’s the scheme he brought with him to Houston. No one complains when Brady’s coaches don’t call play action enough for him, because he can drop back and complete passes without it at an elite level.

That’s what happened with Watson this year. He didn’t need play action. Watson was the third-highest graded passer without play action, screens and RPOs this season, behind only Rodgers and barely behind Mahomes. Could the Texans have gone away from the “all-stick route” offense? Maybe, but Watson was playing at such an elite level that he was getting completions on any concept drawn up for him. These macro scheme complaints don’t really hold up when talking about the elite players in the game. Does Jared Goff need play action? Yes. Did Watson require it? No.

Did this stop me from making the same complaint? Also no.



Watson has always had this level of play in him, but like so many other quarterbacks, performing at such a level for an entire season proved difficult over his first three years in the league. Specifically, Watson's floor games of past seasons completely vanished in 2020. Over the first three years of his career, Watson had 12 games where his passing grade dipped under 60.0. He had no such games in 2020. And getting his turnover-worthy play percentage down to 2% from 3.6% in 2019 was part of that.

In the Texans' Week 3 matchup against the Steelers, Watson engineered a superb two-minute drill that showed everything he’s about right now. The Steelers would end the season ranked second in defensive EPA per play, and Watson tore them up. Getting the ball back with 1:14 left in the first half at their own 25, the Texans took five plays to get into the endzone, with Watson going a perfect 5-for-5.



We start with a quick hitch route to Brandin Cooks. Watson really could throw to either tight end Darren Fells or Cooks. On this concept, with the cornerback off, you are reading the first low defender. He immediately buzzes outside, which opens the throw to Fells, but Watson never believes he can get out fast enough to get under Cooks' route, either. He throws as soon as he finishes the end of his drop and puts the ball on Cooks' outside shoulder, where it should go.

On throws that we chart and bucket as “stick” throws, Watson’s adjusted completion percentage jumped from 76% over the previous two seasons to 92% this past year. His grade on those attempts was good enough for second-best in the league. He took what was given to him and kept the chains moving.



The Texans try to start picking up chunk yardage, so they call their sail concept hoping to find Randall Cobb in some space. The Steelers end up in Cover 3, but with the flat defender getting wide immediately off the snap, Cobb settles into the void instead of staying on the run to the sideline. The read for Watson is to quickly check if the outside receiver can win on his deep route and then to read that same flat defender for a high/low with Cobb and the running back.

Again, with the flat guy so wide, it creates space for Cobb to sit into. Watson reads it the same way and delivers into the void. He hammered Cover 3 this season to the tune of a 93.0 grade, which ranked second-best in the league during the regular season.



The Steelers are starting to get nervous and show like they are going to pressure Watson and play man coverage behind it. They end up rushing only four while playing man with a low-hole defender. Watson is looking to his right early in the drop and sees the player covering Fells run and open a window for Cooks on the in-breaking route.

The problem is that the Texans' offensive line has trouble picking up a stunt along the line of scrimmage, forcing Watson to come off his spot. When he’s ready to throw again, it looks like that low-hole defender spooks from throwing to Cooks, so he takes off into an opening and gets outside the pocket before finding Fells on the sideline for another first down.

Plays like this are where Watson really took his game to another level. We’ve always known he can move around outside the pocket, but he was throwing dimes when on the run in 2020. His grade improved from 67.6 on “scramble drill” plays in 2018 and 2019 to 94.5 this season, which led the league.



Again, the Steelers decide to blitz and play man coverage. Watson opens his dropback by looking to his right, but the man coverage on his wide receiver and the outside leverage on Fells by Cameron Sutton eliminates those two routes.

Watson moves his eyes to the left and finds Cobb again, this time on an in-breaking route, for another first down. Watson has always been good at these throws we chart as “horizontal leads.” He produced the third-highest grade in the league on these types of throws beyond 10 yards. He also led the league in the regular season on throws that we chart as “next read” — where his eyes had to work back across the field.



The touchdown throw is a beautiful drop in the bucket to Will Fuller V. The Steelers are showing man to man with one-high safety before the snap, and as long as that safety doesn’t fly over to the sideline, Watson is going to take his shot to Fuller. In rhythm. Beautiful throw. Six points.

This was Watson the whole season, even if the wins and traditional box score stats didn’t come with it. He took his game to the next level, and it’s why whenever you see potential trade packages for him, the return is astronomical.

If this is who Deshaun Watson is going forward — not a one-hit wonder — there are maybe four teams in the NFL that don’t need to take a look at him. Watson was the best quarterback in the league in 2020, and he arguably had the best season from a signal-caller in the past 15 years.


https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-deshaun-watson-best-quarterback-2020-houston-texans
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 12:25 AM
If DW can come close to what he was 2 years ago and we can make the right moves to shore up our weak areas, we can seriously contend for a playoff spot in 2023. We really weren't that far off this year.
Posted By: Damanshot Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 12:43 AM
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Based on most of the QB play I saw this past weekend we need a high end QB to compete for a Super Bowl. That's why we went out and traded for DW. Let's hope he can get back to playing like one.

I can't disagree with the way you said that. I'd love to believe that DW is the MAN. Hope so. But wishing and hoping don't make it so.

Until he re-proves himself, he's another guy off the shelf.

I'm Sitting at home right now, thinking about Joe Burrows having a chance to return to the SB makes me ill. DW, for all the uncertain feelings I have, is our best hope.
Posted By: jaybird Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 01:40 AM
Quote
However, you still didn't answer the question about his elite status only delivering a 4-12 record.

Check the defense from that year.... they were horrible... Watson was not the problem....
Posted By: jaybird Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 01:45 AM
Originally Posted by Damanshot
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Based on most of the QB play I saw this past weekend we need a high end QB to compete for a Super Bowl. That's why we went out and traded for DW. Let's hope he can get back to playing like one.

I can't disagree with the way you said that. I'd love to believe that DW is the MAN. Hope so. But wishing and hoping don't make it so.

Until he re-proves himself, he's another guy off the shelf.

I'm Sitting at home right now, thinking about Joe Burrows having a chance to return to the SB makes me ill. DW, for all the uncertain feelings I have, is our best hope.

Agree with you... I know he was a franchise QB in 2020... right now I'm not so sure... hoping he can get back to that form with a full off-season training and time in the system... but we'll see... he showed some flashes this year and got better each game, but he's not there yet....
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Here is an article that I posted before. Let's just stop this nonsense that Watson wasn't all that in 2020 and his WRs made him.


Show me where in my post that I said anything about Watson's receivers making him in Houston. Come on now, quote me the part where I said that. I get so tired of your lies. My post was pointing out in rebuttal to this post:
Originally Posted by Jaybird
Texans had no offensive weapons in the 4-12 season other than DW and Cooks... they made a horrible trade for Hopkins.... Fuller I think they cut or was hurt all year, and they had no running back...


The stats I posted proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that 1) Watson did have serious weapons on his 2020 team where he ended up the NFL's top-rated passer that year and 2) those weapons in 2020 had a better year scoring than the skill players that are on the Browns right now produced in 2022. Show me where I said that Watson wasn't all that!

It's also a fact that Watson had a higher sack rate per game 3.33 with the best offensive line in the NFL with Cleveland compared to his rate with such a poor line in Houston which was 3.06 sacks per game. It's also a fact that Watson's sack rate per game (5 game minimum) of 3.33 was the highest sack rate per game for a Browns QB since 2016. You cannot dispute those facts and only a simpleton wouldn't be concerned that Watson takes too many sacks and continues to show a trend of taking a lot of sacks.

Finally, the Browns 2022 offense had its poorest showing in red zone offense percentage since 2017 @ 53.6%. It's also a fact that even though he was loaded with weapons and was the top NFL rated passer in 2020, the Texans only had a 54.0% red zone offense in 2020. Considering the Browns red zone offense was 62.9% in 2021 and 73.6% in 2020 in Stefanski's two previous years, you're lying to yourself if this isn't a concern this off season.

If you want to post a rebuttal opinion to what I post that's fine but out and out lies are so childish it's comical.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 03:16 AM
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Based on most of the QB play I saw this past weekend we need a high end QB to compete for a Super Bowl. That's why we went out and traded for DW. Let's hope he can get back to playing like one.
Doesn't a @b only play as well as his 3rd WR and his offensive coaches' gameplan.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by Clemdawg
Quote
I will point out that many on this very board said he would come back rusty and as his starts went on he would improve and begin to look like his old self.


For the record, I was one who thought that we'd see rust for the remainder of the season, and that it would be next season that we'd see the old pre-break Watson. Now, it remains to be seen if next year DW will return to form, but his performance this year didn't surprise me at all. 2 years is a very long time to be away.

I don't disagree with your opinion, quite the contrary. Some rust was expected but if you're truthful, except for one half, Watson's performance was disappointing. That's not to say or imply that he can't return to form but he's not close to where we thought he'd be and now he'll sit through another off season of 7 months before he's exposed to live action again. That doesn't even take into consideration the two (I believe there's still 2) civil cases to be litigated this off season which probably won't do him any favors if they make it to court. How all this plays out in his progression to his elite status for next season is anyone's guess at this time.
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 01:51 PM
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
If DW can come close to what he was 2 years ago and we can make the right moves to shore up our weak areas, we can seriously contend for a playoff spot in 2023. We really weren't that far off this year.

Man...I hope you are right about that. While I thought DW's play this year was worse than I was hoping/expecting...I'm a lot more concerned about the bolded part there ^ than I am with the prospect of DW getting back to top 10 QB form.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 02:13 PM
I posted stats that showed the WRs were not all that w/out Watson. I also posted information from one article and an entire article that detailed Watson and Houston's season. Just ignore that and keep slinging your usual BS.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 02:20 PM
Quote
I'd love to believe that DW is the MAN. Hope so. But wishing and hoping don't make it so.

Until he re-proves himself, he's another guy off the shelf.

I doubt that you would love for that to happen. You have done nothing but diss him since we traded for him while continuing to proclaim your belief in Baker Mayfield.

Tell me, QB Whisperer............why would multiple NFL teams be willing to trade 3 first round picks and more while paying him huge money if he was just "another guy on the shelf?"
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I posted stats that showed the WRs were not all that w/out Watson. I also posted information from one article and an entire article that detailed Watson and Houston's season. Just ignore that and keep slinging your usual BS.

Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Quote
I'd love to believe that DW is the MAN. Hope so. But wishing and hoping don't make it so.

Until he re-proves himself, he's another guy off the shelf.

I doubt that you would love for that to happen. You have done nothing but diss him since we traded for him while continuing to proclaim your belief in Baker Mayfield.

Tell me, QB Whisperer............why would multiple NFL teams be willing to trade 3 first round picks and more while paying him huge money if he was just "another guy on the shelf?"

Only person dishing BS on this forum is you. Even when people praise Watson you have to move the goalposts so you can spew some unrelated BS. Be critical and you revert back to the past that all posters have moved on from - but not you! Never mind ever answering or for heaven's sake admitting you are wrong, as long as you can continue to monopolize the forum with your hatred posts you are tickled. I can't express it enough how much fun this forum was while you were on your self-imposed hatred hiatus. Oh, how we long for those days again.
Posted By: mac Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 03:18 PM
Originally Posted by Damanshot
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Based on most of the QB play I saw this past weekend we need a high end QB to compete for a Super Bowl. That's why we went out and traded for DW. Let's hope he can get back to playing like one.

I can't disagree with the way you said that. I'd love to believe that DW is the MAN. Hope so. But wishing and hoping don't make it so.

Until he re-proves himself, he's another guy off the shelf.

I'm Sitting at home right now, thinking about Joe Burrows having a chance to return to the SB makes me ill. DW, for all the uncertain feelings I have, is our best hope.


First, above is "an accurate quote" of Daman's post..without quotation marks added or complete sentences left out just so "someone" could start an argument.

Daman, Homewood...DW is what he is, a QB who has a lot of work to do if he is ever going to return to the level of play he exhibited in 2020.

I think most fans are hoping he can return to the 2020 level quickly, but realistically, I expect his progress be a slow climb back. How quickly he returns to the 2020
level will depend on Watson's ability to absorb the playbook and the coaching staff's ability to teach the playbook...all unknowns.

Chances are the progress will be slower than some expect but hopefully by the end of 2023, Watson's play will be good enough to take the Browns to the playoffs.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 03:41 PM
Did you read the article? Any comments or just more personal BS?
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 03:47 PM
It's best to use the link due to all the tweets, but here is another article about the 2020 season w/Watson and Houston.


WAS DESHAUN WATSON'S 2020 SEASON THE BEST BY A QUARTERBACK IN MORE THAN A DECADE?

FEBRUARY 16, 2021



No wonder Houston's holding on.

There has been no shortage of drama coming from the Houston Texans' camp over the past year, and the saga continues, with superstar quarterback Deshaun Watson still at odds with the franchise.

Despite Watson's trade request, the club has no intention of giving up its brightest star, and you can't blame it for that, as Watson had a phenomenal 2020 season, despite his team's struggles on and off the field.


According to Pro Football Focus, Watson took his game to the next level in 2020. His regular-season passing grade of 92.5 was the 19th-best regular-season grade recorded since 2006, when PFF began keeping complete statistical data for the league.


To put that in perspective, anything above a grade of 90.0 is considered historically great.

Watson is one of just 29 quarterbacks to finish a regular season with at least a 90.0 passing grade, and the other 28 all started under center for franchises that ended the season .500 or above. That makes Watson's feat for the 4-12 Texans even more impressive.

With a lack of support from the defense and run game and few offensive weapons, PFF argues that Watson was the league's best QB in 2020, finishing with the best single-season performance by a QB in the past 15 years.


But is PFF correct? Was Watson's campaign really the greatest by a QB in more than a decade?

On Tuesday's "Undisputed," Skip Bayless said yes.

"[Watson] did it in spite of the DeAndre Hopkins trade. It was a terrible move, and it was hard on him psychologically. ... He just dropped back and made it happen."


Watson was without All-Pro receiver DeAndre Hopkins – whom Houston shipped to Arizona in March for running back David Johnson, a 2020 second-round pick and a 2021 fourth-round pick – for the first time in his career.


Even without Hopkins, Watson led the NFL in total passing yards (4,823), ranked second in passer rating (112.4) and yards per game (301.4), and tied for seventh in touchdowns (33).

Both his passing yards and passing touchdowns set single-season franchise records, and Watson was one of four QBs in 2020 with at least 30 passing touchdowns and fewer than 10 interceptions.

He became the first player on a team with at least 12 losses to lead the NFL in passing yards since Jeff George did so with the 1997 Oakland Raiders. Watson did it all behind a porous offensive line, taking the second-most sacks in the league (49).


Not to mention that Johnson, the running back the Texans acquired in the Hopkins deal, didn't help the run game, as Houston averaged the second-fewest yards on the ground in the NFL (91.6).

Meanwhile, the team's 30th-ranked defense (416.8) was abysmal, allowing the most rushing yards per game of any team in the NFL (160.3) and the sixth-most points per game (29.0).

Despite everything Watson managed to achieve under those dire conditions, Shannon Sharpe doesn't think his latest achievements equate to the best season by a quarterback in nearly two decades.


Shannon compared Watson to the Green Bay Packers' Aaron Rodgers, who finished 2020 with one of the greatest quarterback campaigns of the PFF era.

Rodgers posted a 94.5 grade and league-best numbers in passer rating (121.5), completion percentage (70.7) and passing touchdowns (48).

Of course, he had one heck of a target in Davante Adams, who led the league in receiving touchdowns (18) and yards per game (98.1).


As Sharpe pointed out, Watson wasn't without weapons. Brandin Cooks managed to tally 1,150 receiving yards despite missing one game, and although Will Fuller played only 10 games, when he was on the field, Fuller ranked among the top 10 receivers in yards per game (79.9).

With help from Cooks and Fuller, Watson was able to rack up 10 games with at least 300 passing yards, more than any other QB in the regular season.


However you rank Watson's 2020 campaign, all eyes will be on him in 2021 – especially if he's suiting up in new colors.


https://www.foxsports.com/stories/n...nfls-best-quarterback-in-2020-pff-argues
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Did you read the article? Any comments or just more personal BS?

Again, what the hell are you trying to prove with your unwarranted attacks? I didn't say anything about Watson having a poor year - I did say was even with his league leading passer rating they were still only 4-12, that he took a huge number of sacks which he has continued since becoming a Brown, and his red zone offense was very questionable for an elite QB and that trend has continued in Cleveland. Those are all facts you cannot dispute!

Do you read your own articles you post?
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
As Sharpe pointed out, Watson wasn't without weapons. Brandin Cooks managed to tally 1,150 receiving yards despite missing one game, and although Will Fuller played only 10 games, when he was on the field, Fuller ranked among the top 10 receivers in yards per game (79.9).
With help from Cooks and Fuller, Watson was able to rack up 10 games with at least 300 passing yards, more than any other QB in the regular season.


Quit trying to create an argument by posting lies. I said Watson had weapons in Houston. You are saying he didn't yet the article itself says he had weapons. Nobody gives a [censored] about what those receivers did after Watson quit on his teammates - they were bonafide NFL weapons on that 2020 team that did their part in helping Watson achieve his lofty elite status.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 04:51 PM
I never said he didn't have weapons. I challenged you on just how good those weapons are. You are ignoring all kinds of things because you can't admit you were wrong. Again.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 05:06 PM
Your article in itself describes how good his receivers were. Maybe you should read it. In fact, those receivers and including the TE's outperformed this year's Browns receivers in scoring.
Posted By: FloridaFan Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 05:08 PM
I think the point is, we just don't know if, or when, DW will return to form. Only time can answer that.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 05:17 PM
Here's a portion of an article talking about Watson's 2020 season. We can all post articles.

Is Deshaun Watson Currently Playing At A Top Five Level?
The numbers say he is. My heart says he isn’t.

By Matt Weston@Matt__Weston 2020

Football Outsiders’ efficiency and value numbers have Watson 5th in DVOA at 19.7% and 6th in DYAR at 661. Houston’s entire passing offense DVOA is 25.3%, which is 11th. Watson is the only player this year to not have a Pro Football Focus passing grade below 60, whatever the hell that means.

I get DVOA and DYAR. I understand what they mean and how they work. Pro Football Focus is unamerican; as an ethnocentrist, I hate them. Everything they seep out into the internet makes zero sense to me, but grades are grades.

My problem is that despite what the numbers say, that Watson has been a top five quarterback in the NFL this year, I’m just not completely sold on it.

I still feel a lot of this offense has been empty, with production coming from playing behind. Watson has had problems on third down. He’s missed crossing routes by throwing behind his receivers. The deep passing game has never gelled. There’s constant tumbling around the backfield because of the blitz, and again, the team has struggled to score points or do enough to make up for its atrocious defense.

This isn’t entirely Watson’s fault. It’s mainly because of the other things that form the offense: the talent, design, play calling, the structure of the offense itself. From a talent and ability perspective, Watson is a top five NFL quarterback. I just don’t think the numbers showing Watson has performed like a top five quarterback match what my eyes and heart are telling me.

I’ve asked this question to friends, family, podcast guests, and whoever else will talk to me. So, I ask you loyal reader, has Watson played at a top five level like the numbers say he has?

Poll
Is Deshaun Watson playing at a top five level?
This poll is closed

22% = Yes
(136 votes)

78% = No
(470 votes)
606 votes total
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 05:32 PM
j/c:

The Texans TEs that year consisted of multiple guys who had been released by the Browns.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by FloridaFan
I think the point is, we just don't know if, or when, DW will return to form. Only time can answer that.

I would like to ask you a legitimate question. Not confrontational at all. You are not one of the butt-hurt Baker fans who keeps on saying stuff like that, so I am curious as to why you think the way you do about Watson.

What evidence or data do you have that would make you think there is an equal possibility of him not returning to being a very good QB?

Do you think his arm weakened while he was gone? Does one just lose the ability to process information? Has his athleticism suddenly vanished? Will he no longer study film? Will he not put in the work? Has his touch suddenly vanished and will never return? We watched those films where he is breaking down film w/the guys on NFL Network and how he displayed high level intelligence when it comes to reading defenses and coverages. Those abilities are lost in space somewhere? Other than some Baker fans saying that we don't know if he will be good or not next season, what other evidence do we have?

I will give my opinion in advance. While there are never any guarantees, I think the odds of him not regaining his greatness are miniscule. He struggled this year, but we might want to consider the circumstances before we just say that he somehow lost all of the many gifts he has.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 05:49 PM
Mac you could be right about DW's slow climb back. We're the Browns. Does anyone think it will be easy for DW to return to form? Not with us and I hope I'm wrong. SF put in the last guy to be taken in the draft and he's playing great. We draft a QB first overall (TWICE) and other QB's in the first round and they all bust out. WE always seem to have to overcome more than everyone else.The Bengals have become a perfect example of what I'm saying. We haven't been able to turn it around for more than a year since we've come back in "99. Others do it in a couple of years and stay competitive. Sad and frustrating.
Posted By: Day of the Dawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 06:06 PM
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Mac you could be right about DW's slow climb back. We're the Browns. Does anyone think it will be easy for DW to return to form? Not with us and I hope I'm wrong. SF put in the last guy to be taken in the draft and he's playing great. We draft a QB first overall (TWICE) and other QB's in the first round and they all bust out. WE always seem to have to overcome more than everyone else.The Bengals have become a perfect example of what I'm saying. We haven't been able to turn it around for more than a year since we've come back in "99. Others do it in a couple of years and stay competitive. Sad and frustrating.

In Burrow's rookie year the Bengals struggled, and Burrow got hurt. Their coach just finished dead last in the AFC North 2 straight years. There were calls to fire the coach. If they would have done that would the Bengals be where they are now? I don't think so. I would argue the Browns are further ahead of where the Bengal's were after Burrow's rookie year. Their defense was horrible, their offensive line was terrible, they're only hope was a rookie QB that showed promise who was coming off an injury. The Bengals were even laughed at and mocked for drafting Chase instead of an Olineman. They're QB got healthy, they had a good draft, picked up some key free agents and did so without breaking the bank and went to the super bowl.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 06:37 PM
So what,,,,,,,,,,,,
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 06:42 PM
PFN low on Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson after 2022 Showing
Jacob Roach
Tue, January 24, 2023 at 10:30 AM EST

Quarterback Deshaun Watson struggled in his six games in 2022 after a prolonged absence from the Cleveland Browns. One of the biggest questions heading into 2023 surrounds his ability to return to form. This has caused some to be worried he won’t return to the elite player he was in 2020. Pro Football Network released their 2022 quarterback power rankings for the postseason and 2023 season and they have Watson near the bottom.

PFN’s rankings have Watson in their Tier 5 “concerning” tier with an overall ranking of 29th. It is understandable why he struggled and also why people are concerned he might not be able to bounce back.

There were flashes of the elite player the Browns traded for but also no consistent improvements over the six games. Now Watson gets a full offseason without splitting reps and a looming hiatus from the team. With that being said he absolutely should look better in 2023 and if he doesn’t it will set the franchise back for several more years.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by FloridaFan
I think the point is, we just don't know if, or when, DW will return to form. Only time can answer that.

I would like to ask you a legitimate question. Not confrontational at all. You are not one of the butt-hurt Baker fans who keeps on saying stuff like that, so I am curious as to why you think the way you do about Watson.

What evidence or data do you have that would make you think there is an equal possibility of him not returning to being a very good QB?

He didn't say there was an equal probability. Where did you pull that out of? Oh never mind, I know where. And as per usual anyone who even hints at questioning if watson will return to form must be a butt hurt baker fan. Do you have any idea how old and ridiculous that sounds? There is no guarantee watson will return to his 2020 form and production. None. I would certainly say the odds are greater that he will than that he won't. But you see, some people, such as yourself keeping proclaiming there's zero chance that he won't. That's just not true.

I forgot, you didn't guarantee it. You said there was a 0.005% chance that he wouldn't. Do you know what the astronomical odds that equals? I mean that's far longer odds than they gave Buster Douglas of beating Mike Tyson. That's where you see someone taking things to the extreme. Not everyone else.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by steve0255
PFN low on Browns quarterback Deshaun Watson after 2022 Showing
Jacob Roach
Tue, January 24, 2023 at 10:30 AM EST

Quarterback Deshaun Watson struggled in his six games in 2022 after a prolonged absence from the Cleveland Browns. One of the biggest questions heading into 2023 surrounds his ability to return to form. This has caused some to be worried he won’t return to the elite player he was in 2020. Pro Football Network released their 2022 quarterback power rankings for the postseason and 2023 season and they have Watson near the bottom.

PFN’s rankings have Watson in their Tier 5 “concerning” tier with an overall ranking of 29th. It is understandable why he struggled and also why people are concerned he might not be able to bounce back.

There were flashes of the elite player the Browns traded for but also no consistent improvements over the six games. Now Watson gets a full offseason without splitting reps and a looming hiatus from the team. With that being said he absolutely should look better in 2023 and if he doesn’t it will set the franchise back for several more years.

They have Sam Darnold and Andy Dalton ranked higher. Hahaha.

This is clearly a biased rankings and I get why, they need to crap on Deshaun because of the massage story. No one, literally no one is giving Watson any props.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 08:28 PM
j/c

I would love to remove the personalities out of the discussion but we all know that will never happen at this point. But let's recap a few things I believe almost everyone can agree with.

Stefanski has been the HC of the Browns for three seasons now. In his first season he helped lead the Browns to a playoff game. I don't think hardly anyone would disagree that he accomplished that with a far inferior QB than what watson has shown his abilities were before deciding to sit out and demanding he be traded. Now I hope that doesn't evolve into people debating they why's of that decision because as I posted it, there's no doubt it was his decision to sit out and demand a trade despite the reason why. And the why's of it are irrelevant to this conversation.

And I don't even care about the reasons why Stefanski had had a worse record each of the following two seasons after the first. I think most of us know it goes far beyond Stefanski's ability to coach. Because even though some make it sound like the unforgivable sin to question Stefanski, I have always maintained he holds far more positives than negatives. But he certainly is by no means perfect or almost perfect. But he is certainly a good HC. Once again it would be nice if people didn't take things to the extreme to claim he's trash or a coaching God.

I believe anyone who knows the game at all or has watched multiple Texans games in the past knows watson at his peak is a far better QB than anything we've had here since the Browns return in 1999.

The Browns paid watson the largest guaranteed contract in the NFL. That's because they expect watson to return to the greatness he had once shown. You don't pay that kind of money to a QB if you don't believe you are getting a top 5 player at the QB position. Unless of course you think the people that agreed to pay him that money are morons. And I don't think those in this FO are morons. As with Stefanski, they will make mistakes and they will do good things. It's just part of the human condition. But it's only common sense that if they didn't think he was in the elite category in the NFL QB ranks, they wouldn't have given him that contract.

Up to that point I think we can for the most part agree. Other than the extremists in either direction that is. Now we get to the part where I think opinions will wildly vary and the divide will become large.

Now let's try and look at what they expected form that investment and what would be an honest expectation based on what they paid him. It's a five year contract. Every dollar of it is guaranteed. So each season represents one fifth of that contract. Now what fans think of this past season differs in regards to watson. On this very board we had a variety of expectations. For the most part fans felt he would be rusty to start. That we would see progress as he continued to play. And to some degree we did. The word rusty however is a word that varies from person to person. So did you think rusty would mean that the team would only be able to put up 10 points against the Bengals when we had beaten them 5 times in a row had put up 32 points against them only five games earlier? Or 10 points against the Saints? Or 14 points against the Steelers after scoring 29 against them in week 3? Or in your mind were you thinking that looked like a little more than rust? And while there were hints that watson was slowly improving, he threw 2 ugly int's in that last game against the Steelers. Now you can call that anything you like but I feel like those are legitimate questions and factual events.

So what should next year actually look like with watson at QB? I think we must consider Stefanski's first season here. He had a far inferior QB to work with and took this team to an 11-5 record. So would backing into the playoffs with say a 9-8 record be success? It would certainly fall short of what he did with a much lesser talent behind center.

And if you were the one's paying that contract to watson, would you think you paid to have a second season where you would still be dealing with being hampered by a QB trying to shake off the rust? That you really weren't going to compete in getting the success you were paying big money for until year three of that five year contract?

And before the usual suspects go off the rails, I'm not making any predictions here. But there's no way anyone can say what they saw was watson as a finished product compared to what was expected. So he will certainly be going into season two needing to progress. Nobody, no matter what they say can predict how long that process will take at this point. So while I know this will hurt the tender sensibilities of some, these are certainly questions moving forward and not everyone is going to sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya with you. That's not even how any of this is supposed to work.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 08:33 PM
That may be right, I just posted it because it seemed so over the top. As far as getting props, Watson made his bed and that won't go away easily. I suspect it will ramp up as the case(s) get closer to going to court. It could be another ugly off season for Watson.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
This is clearly a biased rankings and I get why, they need to crap on Deshaun because of the massage story. No one, literally no one is giving Watson any props.

I think it's a crap ranking too. Unless of course it was based on his play in 2022 and not basing it on any predicted progress made moving forward. But your reasoning that it is "because of the massage story" is totally made up and quite a reach. I mean had you ever heard of this site before? Because let me tell you what happens all the time and is far more likely than what you posted.

These unknowns, and even knowns like Bayless, say stupid and outrageous things all the time to get ratings, hits on their websites and blogs. That's how they gain notoriety.
Posted By: FloridaFan Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 08:57 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by FloridaFan
I think the point is, we just don't know if, or when, DW will return to form. Only time can answer that.

I would like to ask you a legitimate question. Not confrontational at all. You are not one of the butt-hurt Baker fans who keeps on saying stuff like that, so I am curious as to why you think the way you do about Watson.

What evidence or data do you have that would make you think there is an equal possibility of him not returning to being a very good QB?

Do you think his arm weakened while he was gone? Does one just lose the ability to process information? Has his athleticism suddenly vanished? Will he no longer study film? Will he not put in the work? Has his touch suddenly vanished and will never return? We watched those films where he is breaking down film w/the guys on NFL Network and how he displayed high level intelligence when it comes to reading defenses and coverages. Those abilities are lost in space somewhere? Other than some Baker fans saying that we don't know if he will be good or not next season, what other evidence do we have?

I will give my opinion in advance. While there are never any guarantees, I think the odds of him not regaining his greatness are miniscule. He struggled this year, but we might want to consider the circumstances before we just say that he somehow lost all of the many gifts he has.


Mainly because it is fact, we don't know if he will return to form. We hope he will, indication are that he should, but there are no guarantees.

I have found through my years that many peoples perceptions of things in the past are slightly better or worse than the what they truly were, which leads to expectations that may not fit the reality.

For the sake of the team, I hope and expect he will return to form or at least close to it but a couple years older. But in football, there are a lot of factor that affect outcomes, from teammates, coaches, training, age, and circumstances. As we look at the league today versus 3 years ago, the landscape has changed, let's hope DW can adapt and excel within it.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by FloridaFan
Mainly because it is fact, we don't know if he will return to form. We hope he will, indication are that he should, but there are no guarantees.

Facts are not something that he accepts as a valid argument to any dispute. I am in 100% agreement with your opinion though. As you said, in football, there are a lot of factors that affect outcomes, from teammates, coaches, training, age, and circumstances. Not to worry though, he's already preparing that "Watson Only" excuse jar.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 10:29 PM
Thanks for answering. I don't agree because I believe you need data and analysis before you can make predictions, but I respect your opinion.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 10:32 PM
More insults. Surprise.
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 10:32 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Thanks for answering. I don't agree because I believe you need data and analysis before you can make predictions, but I respect your opinion.

Precisely. The only data and analysis we have right now is what DW did for the Browns. 2 years ago was 2 years ago.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 10:39 PM
What happened two years ago isn't data? And you can't analyze it?

Don't answer. I know what you will say. You are here to fight, just like your brother, Pit.
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/25/23 10:52 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
What happened two years ago isn't data? And you can't analyze it?

Don't answer. I know what you will say. You are here to fight, just like your brother, Pit.

Oh my, if you think I even like pit, you're sadly mistaken.



Let's see what DW did THIS year, not 2 years ago. (or was it 3 years ago that he played?)

Say what you want about me, but dude, you've sunk your teeth into DW on HOPES. You made your bed, lay in it. What did he do for the Browns THIS year? Nothing, but trying to knock "rust" off. And now another off season, where he should knock some more rust off, right? Just like he had the opportunity last year to knock the rust off. If I'm guaranteeing 230 million to him, I need to see something. Well, since the money is already guaranteed, I guess it doesn't matter.

He gets his. At what cost?

I fully expect a much much improved DW next year. If not, he's a bust.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 12:51 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
More insults. Surprise.

Well at least we can have a laugh - you're the king of insulting people and nobody's surprised by your hatred filled posts. It's your only answer to opinions based on facts. rofl tsktsk rofl
Posted By: GMdawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 11:49 AM
Originally Posted by mac
Originally Posted by Damanshot
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Based on most of the QB play I saw this past weekend we need a high end QB to compete for a Super Bowl. That's why we went out and traded for DW. Let's hope he can get back to playing like one.

I can't disagree with the way you said that. I'd love to believe that DW is the MAN. Hope so. But wishing and hoping don't make it so.

Until he re-proves himself, he's another guy off the shelf.

I'm Sitting at home right now, thinking about Joe Burrows having a chance to return to the SB makes me ill. DW, for all the uncertain feelings I have, is our best hope.


First, above is "an accurate quote" of Daman's post..without quotation marks added or complete sentences left out just so "someone" could start an argument.

Daman, Homewood...DW is what he is, a QB who has a lot of work to do if he is ever going to return to the level of play he exhibited in 2020.

I think most fans are hoping he can return to the 2020 level quickly, but realistically, I expect his progress be a slow climb back. How quickly he returns to the 2020
level will depend on Watson's ability to absorb the playbook and the coaching staff's ability to teach the playbook...all unknowns.

Chances are the progress will be slower than some expect but hopefully by the end of 2023, Watson's play will be good enough to take the Browns to the playoffs.

One thing I have not noticed anybody post about is that Watson was not allowed to have a playbook during his suspension. The 11 weeks he was off, he had no access to a playbook. Pretty much washed out the rest of his season. Crossing my fingers that he is ready to hit the ground running next season.
Posted By: FloridaFan Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Thanks for answering. I don't agree because I believe you need data and analysis before you can make predictions, but I respect your opinion.

You are correct, but that data needs to be concurrent, or else the analysis can be flawed. There is no real data to tell us what 2 years of non-play has done to his physical or mental traits that made him so good. Football players skillset, particularly the physical ones, tend to diminish with each year.

That is not even taking into account, different coaches, teams, players, schemes that all could have an affect on his results.

Don't get me wrong, I hope he gets back to form, but from what I saw in his limited playtime, I can't say with 100% certainty that he will. I saw some signs that the skills are still there, and I hope it was all the mental part that was holding him back. Limited time in the scheme, limited time with his receivers, off-field issues interfering with his ability to focus properly, and even his own anticipation and expectations. If he thought he was going to take that first snap and be a superstar, and then he struggled as he did, it could have messed with his confidence for those few games.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 01:50 PM
I appreciate the answer, but as someone who has coached the game, I can't accept that all these gifts just went "poof" into the night. I think there are a couple of posters on this board who write one negative post after another and some of our fans buy into what they are saying despite the poor record of those negative posters. That's fine. I'm done w/the conversation.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 02:19 PM
How will Deshaun Watson play?

We will find out.

I do believe there is a perspective that should be considered. No matter what your opinion of DW is. He is a human being. As such he is subject to emotions like all of us.

Last year while trying to prepare for a new season with a new team. There was a tornado around him. He had no idea what would happen. How the public and his new team would react. How long he would be suspended?

Once it was determined that he would be out eleven games. The Browns had to move forward with Jacoby.

Jacoby was a 3 step or 5 step drop guy. Look at one or two options and get the ball out. A rhythm based offense. All quarterbacks throw a different ball. Practice sharpens the chemistry with receivers. They know when to look for the ball and how it will be thrown.

Once the DW came back the offense was in place. It is very hard eleven games into a season to change things and prepare for an opponent.

DW is a different quarterback than Jacoby. He was playing for the first time in two years with a new team eleven games into a season.

When the season ended. DW knew he would have input into a new offense.

2023 will be a new offense and will be the entire focus of the off season preparation. For the most part the players will be the same. There maybe a few new faces. DW and the rest of the offense will be able to bank a lot of reps all with the first team. Not splitting time with two qb's.

DW is a different quarterback. Receivers will learn when to expect the ball and how it will arrive. The OL and receivers will have to adjust to DW looking at more options. That means he will hold the ball. He will extend plays. Receivers will have to learn to move after their primary route and work to open. The OL will have to adjust to blocking longer.

2023 will be a different offense. KS and DW will work together to get into plays that DW will be comfortable with. The required chemistry will have a full off season to develop.

To look at the last six games and think that is our quarterback is pretending the 2022 was business as usual and it was not.
Posted By: FloridaFan Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 02:45 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I appreciate the answer, but as someone who has coached the game, I can't accept that all these gifts just went "poof" into the night. I think there are a couple of posters on this board who write one negative post after another and some of our fans buy into what they are saying despite the poor record of those negative posters. That's fine. I'm done w/the conversation.

I don't think they went "poof" either. You seem to be interpreting what I wrote as he has no skill left, when I said exactly opposite that.

If he had just been rehabbing or something things might be different. But he went through 2 mentally exhaustive years, that still aren't over. The mind is a very powerful thing and everyone reacts to issues differently, and they affect people differently.

I hope what we saw was "rust", but like I said, I can't state with 100% confidence that there is not more to it, until he "proves" it.

Isn't that basically a thing in the NFL, "Last year is last year, show us this year."
Posted By: mac Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by GMdawg
One thing I have not noticed anybody post about is that Watson was not allowed to have a playbook during his suspension. The 11 weeks he was off, he had no access to a playbook. Pretty much washed out the rest of his season. Crossing my fingers that he is ready to hit the ground running next season.


GM..we are about to find out how hard Watson is willing to work to accomplish team goals. He will have the opportunity to get himself up to speed with the playbook as well the opportunity to participate in off season workouts. By the time camp starts, a lot of that rust should be gone.

One of the declines I noticed about Watson's performance once he returned was his "mental decline". Watson's ability to process information clearly was affected more than I expected. To be honest, I didn't even think about the mental part of the game but once I saw him on the field, it was clear that two years away from football affected his ability to process information.

To put it another way, Watson had to think about everything he had to do because his brain was not allowing his body to react "instinctively". The more time Watson puts in to improve his read and react ability, the better he will be when it's time to step onto the practice field.

I'm not sure how much time or contact with the coaching staff an NFL player is allowed to have during the off season, but some players spend time working out with private trainers. Will the Browns try to hook Watson up with a private trainer to work on his QBing skills..?

I hope so...

Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 03:02 PM
Quote
CLEVELAND, Ohio (WOIO) - Deshaun Watson, finishing up a suspension-shortened first season with the Browns, plans to put in extra work in Ohio this offseason.

““I live here so I am going to stay in Cleveland. I will be here,” Watson said Thursday in Berea. “It is really just mastering this offense, mastering the game situationally and being able to have confidence going into 2023.”


https://www.cleveland19.com/2023/01...-am-going-stay-cleveland-i-will-be-here/
Posted By: mac Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 03:25 PM
That's good news...maybe Joe Thomas will take him walleye fishing.. thumbsup Life in Ohio is good...

Let's hope he returns to form and hits the ground much improved.
Posted By: FATE Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
j/c

I would love to remove the personalities out of the discussion but we all know that will never happen at this point. But let's recap a few things I believe almost everyone can agree with.

Stefanski has been the HC of the Browns for three seasons now. In his first season he helped lead the Browns to a playoff game. I don't think hardly anyone would disagree that he accomplished that with a far inferior QB than what watson has shown his abilities were before deciding to sit out and demanding he be traded. Now I hope that doesn't evolve into people debating they why's of that decision because as I posted it, there's no doubt it was his decision to sit out and demand a trade despite the reason why. And the why's of it are irrelevant to this conversation.

And I don't even care about the reasons why Stefanski had had a worse record each of the following two seasons after the first. I think most of us know it goes far beyond Stefanski's ability to coach. Because even though some make it sound like the unforgivable sin to question Stefanski, I have always maintained he holds far more positives than negatives. But he certainly is by no means perfect or almost perfect. But he is certainly a good HC. Once again it would be nice if people didn't take things to the extreme to claim he's trash or a coaching God.

I believe anyone who knows the game at all or has watched multiple Texans games in the past knows watson at his peak is a far better QB than anything we've had here since the Browns return in 1999.

The Browns paid watson the largest guaranteed contract in the NFL. That's because they expect watson to return to the greatness he had once shown. You don't pay that kind of money to a QB if you don't believe you are getting a top 5 player at the QB position. Unless of course you think the people that agreed to pay him that money are morons. And I don't think those in this FO are morons. As with Stefanski, they will make mistakes and they will do good things. It's just part of the human condition. But it's only common sense that if they didn't think he was in the elite category in the NFL QB ranks, they wouldn't have given him that contract.

Up to that point I think we can for the most part agree. Other than the extremists in either direction that is. Now we get to the part where I think opinions will wildly vary and the divide will become large.

Now let's try and look at what they expected form that investment and what would be an honest expectation based on what they paid him. It's a five year contract. Every dollar of it is guaranteed. So each season represents one fifth of that contract. Now what fans think of this past season differs in regards to watson. On this very board we had a variety of expectations. For the most part fans felt he would be rusty to start. That we would see progress as he continued to play. And to some degree we did. The word rusty however is a word that varies from person to person. So did you think rusty would mean that the team would only be able to put up 10 points against the Bengals when we had beaten them 5 times in a row had put up 32 points against them only five games earlier? Or 10 points against the Saints? Or 14 points against the Steelers after scoring 29 against them in week 3? Or in your mind were you thinking that looked like a little more than rust? And while there were hints that watson was slowly improving, he threw 2 ugly int's in that last game against the Steelers. Now you can call that anything you like but I feel like those are legitimate questions and factual events.

So what should next year actually look like with watson at QB? I think we must consider Stefanski's first season here. He had a far inferior QB to work with and took this team to an 11-5 record. So would backing into the playoffs with say a 9-8 record be success? It would certainly fall short of what he did with a much lesser talent behind center.

And if you were the one's paying that contract to watson, would you think you paid to have a second season where you would still be dealing with being hampered by a QB trying to shake off the rust? That you really weren't going to compete in getting the success you were paying big money for until year three of that five year contract?

And before the usual suspects go off the rails, I'm not making any predictions here. But there's no way anyone can say what they saw was watson as a finished product compared to what was expected. So he will certainly be going into season two needing to progress. Nobody, no matter what they say can predict how long that process will take at this point. So while I know this will hurt the tender sensibilities of some, these are certainly questions moving forward and not everyone is going to sit around the campfire singing Kumbaya with you. That's not even how any of this is supposed to work.

Good post.

Your first part is a clear, even-keeled analysis of everything that happened... From the Stefanski tenure to all the reasons why the Watson deal went down. There is no doubt that the price tag clearly says our FO thinks Watson is elite, or at least 'elite enough' to remedy the fact that it is very hard to win the prize with subpar to average QB play.

Trying to forecast the timetable and trajectory of the payoff (if there is one) is very hard to do. I'm not going to try to predict how next year impacts the decision or contract implications. One reason is because we'll likely see that contract reworked before next season anyway. We'll wait 'til after Lamar is signed or tagged as it has a direct impact to what they pay him in both scenarios. I know it sounds silly, but we are archrivals and any 'edge' is good playing in the toughest division in football.

And that segues into my next point, concerning the "opinions will wildly vary" part.

"Any given Sunday" is on display every week in the NFL, so I won't make excuses for the New Orleans game. Watson didn't look good. I'm not going to pass judgment on Watson for the Bengals when they came out and boat raced us. Chubb had one of his worst career games, Hunt did no better, Mixon ran the ball down our throats. The Bengals were smack-dab in the middle of what is now a nine game winning streak. The Steelers were playing the best defense in the NFL. In their last eight games (since the return of Watt), no team scored more than 17 points.


Trying to put Watson under a microscope in an attempt to see what's different in his DNA, after six games, is futile. Everybody is filing all of this analysis under "rust", when really it's just a small sample size. A sample size of a QB with a new team, another QB's playbook, two years off, no rapport with his receivers. He's also a human; probably experiencing a shifting change in his personality, circle of friends, and dealing with grief and remorse. In a new city... and he hates the cold lol.

I'm gonna pass on any further discussion of the book entitled "Rust, Will He or Won't He Shake it Off?" TBH, I've already seen enough to know his skillset this season dwarfs any QB we've had on the team STR. He'll embark on a normal off-season cycle and start next year, for the first time in three years, on a normal NFL schedule. We'll craft an offense around his skillset. He'll continue to build relationships and a rapport with his teammates.

Will we go to the Super Bowl next year? I don't know. Will we bust and sit home for the playoffs? I don't know. Will Watson look like a bust of a deal? I seriously, seriously doubt it.

Only time will tell. In the meantime, it seems absurd for everyone to argue whether it can or can't happen.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 03:41 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Don't answer. I know what you will say. You are here to fight, just like your brother, Pit.

This is always your standard answer when people have an opposing view or present facts and questions you simply refuse to address. You aren't fooling anyone.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 03:52 PM
And as much as some protest, an argument isn't what I was looking for. Actually your response was more what I was looking for and I appreciate it. I'm not trying to make any prediction either. I have no idea how this will all play out. I was predicating much of it based on what was actually posted by many on this board as it pertains to the "rust"part of it. That was a very common theme among posters before watson returned and I was simply wondering what they thought it about that now based on the six games they witnessed. Once again, thanks for the response.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 04:52 PM
I agree with most of what you have said but I do have a question. You said: "Once the DW came back the offense was in place. It is very hard eleven games into a season to change things and prepare for an opponent. DW is a different quarterback than Jacoby. He was playing for the first time in two years with a new team eleven games into a season."

Watson is an experienced NFL QB with 4-years of experience playing in the NFL. I realize that Watson didn't have live play for 700 days or so, but he did have the off-season last year and he had the preseason too. I guess my question is then, if Watson possesses all that NFL live experience, the off-season, and a preseason; how could he not be at least as equally prepared to play as a rookie QB that had even more limited exposure as in a Brock Purdy? Afterall, unlike Watson - Purdy had zero NFL live play experience. He had never had an NFL playbook before May 1, 2022 - more than 40-days later than when Watson received his playbook. Purdy didn't go to the Bahamas like where Watson treated the entire offense with a trip to work on team building and get some time working out together. Purdy sat as the #3 or #2 for 12 weeks not getting any snaps with the first team all those weeks of practice then was forced into playing with a new team 12 games into a season which was actually longer wait than Watson. Why the difference?

IMHO, Purdy may never start another game in the NFL after this season, that's a huge unknown. The upside for Watson, however, is undeniable as he's earned the projection of a top 5 elite QB but he still needs to prove that on the field. That said, I don't believe Watson showed us anything close to elite play in those 6 games and I find the constant barrage of excuses for Watson's less than expected performance over those last 6 games is ignoring that either Watson wasn't prepared to play, or the coaching staff wasn't prepared to have him playing. I mean really, as a fan that's been waiting forever for a winner, shouldn't we have expected more from a top 5 elite QB with 4-years NFL experience as a starter than seeing a rookie go undefeated and taken his team to the NFC Championship Game and totally outperform our 230M QB?

In business, when presented with a problem - you start asking why. You ask why at least 5 times because the answers will always start with cause excuses. By the time you get to the 5th why or so, you finally get past the excuses and will uncover the root cause that got you the problem in the first place. You can never fix the problem if you're continuing to deal with the excuses because the root cause is still there. With Watson, but more importantly the Browns, they spend a whole lot of time on why #1 and why #2 and never get to the root cause.

Anyway, nice post - I found it very informative.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 05:29 PM
I can not speak to Brock Purdy and his experience with the 49er's.

Other than to say it is really amazing what he has done. In many ways it is reminiscent of Kurt Warner when Trent Green got hurt.

Obviously the 49 defense is playing at a high level.

I am not making excuses for DW. I gave my opinion.

I am hopeful for what he will do in 2023.
Posted By: Day of the Dawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 05:39 PM
Originally Posted by steve0255
I agree with most of what you have said but I do have a question. You said: "Once the DW came back the offense was in place. It is very hard eleven games into a season to change things and prepare for an opponent. DW is a different quarterback than Jacoby. He was playing for the first time in two years with a new team eleven games into a season."

Watson is an experienced NFL QB with 4-years of experience playing in the NFL. I realize that Watson didn't have live play for 700 days or so, but he did have the off-season last year and he had the preseason too. I guess my question is then, if Watson possesses all that NFL live experience, the off-season, and a preseason; how could he not be at least as equally prepared to play as a rookie QB that had even more limited exposure as in a Brock Purdy? Afterall, unlike Watson - Purdy had zero NFL live play experience. He had never had an NFL playbook before May 1, 2022 - more than 40-days later than when Watson received his playbook. Purdy didn't go to the Bahamas like where Watson treated the entire offense with a trip to work on team building and get some time working out together. Purdy sat as the #3 or #2 for 12 weeks not getting any snaps with the first team all those weeks of practice then was forced into playing with a new team 12 games into a season which was actually longer wait than Watson. Why the difference?

IMHO, Purdy may never start another game in the NFL after this season, that's a huge unknown. The upside for Watson, however, is undeniable as he's earned the projection of a top 5 elite QB but he still needs to prove that on the field. That said, I don't believe Watson showed us anything close to elite play in those 6 games and I find the constant barrage of excuses for Watson's less than expected performance over those last 6 games is ignoring that either Watson wasn't prepared to play, or the coaching staff wasn't prepared to have him playing. I mean really, as a fan that's been waiting forever for a winner, shouldn't we have expected more from a top 5 elite QB with 4-years NFL experience as a starter than seeing a rookie go undefeated and taken his team to the NFC Championship Game and totally outperform our 230M QB?

In business, when presented with a problem - you start asking why. You ask why at least 5 times because the answers will always start with cause excuses. By the time you get to the 5th why or so, you finally get past the excuses and will uncover the root cause that got you the problem in the first place. You can never fix the problem if you're continuing to deal with the excuses because the root cause is still there. With Watson, but more importantly the Browns, they spend a whole lot of time on why #1 and why #2 and never get to the root cause.

Anyway, nice post - I found it very informative.

Why #1 - The Browns drafted Baker Mayfield #1
Why #2 - There were 2 QB's taken after Mayfield that are far and away performing at a much higher level.
Why #3 - Baker Mayfield never played up to the potential of a 1st round draft pick much less the #1 overall pick.
Why #4 - The Bengals passed the Browns overnight while Mayfield was stuck in mediocrity.
Why #5 - Desperate the Browns seen and opportunity to acquire a QB that has performed to the level of elite he was just marred in a legal situation. Because of the Mayfield failure to give the team any chance to get back to the Bengals level they acquired a QB that they knew would have to work himself back into physical and mental game shape. Knowing this was a process they made the move because there was no hope in what they had!!!
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by FloridaFan
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Thanks for answering. I don't agree because I believe you need data and analysis before you can make predictions, but I respect your opinion.

You are correct, but that data needs to be concurrent, or else the analysis can be flawed. There is no real data to tell us what 2 years of non-play has done to his physical or mental traits that made him so good. Football players skillset, particularly the physical ones, tend to diminish with each year.

To piggyback a bit: the data from two years ago is not relevant data for a current analysis. It is the baseline that people hope he can get back to; it doesn't factor into anything except to show how far he currently is from where he is expected to be.
There is only one dataset that pertains to any analysis of where he is and that is what he has done since being here; two years ago is simply referential data.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 05:54 PM
I really have no idea what your response has to do with Watson's progression but whatever. superconfused superconfused confused confused shocked shocked
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 05:59 PM
So it's all Mayfield's fault.

rofl

As for your #5. Don't forget he sat out on his former team for an entire season and demanded a trade because he wasn't happy there. I notice you forgot to include that part.
Posted By: Day of the Dawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 07:44 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So it's all Mayfield's fault.

rofl

As for your #5. Don't forget he sat out on his former team for an entire season and demanded a trade because he wasn't happy there. I notice you forgot to include that part.

No, it is John Dorsey's fault for wasting the #1 overall pick on Mayfield. Watson just went .500 with the Browns without his A game. The QB position has been upgraded. Now it is time to see what pieces they can fix around the QB.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 07:59 PM
watson just went .500 because in part the defense stepped up and held the opponents to very low scores. They held the ravens to 3 points and the Browns won by scoring only 13 points as an example. In four of watsons six starts the Browns scored 10 points against the Bengals, 13 points against the Ravens, 10 points against the Saints and 14 points against the Steelers. And it seems rather odd to me that you never mentioned the name Dorsey until your last reply.

So yes, watson went .500 in his starts. And it may help those who wish to feel better about by not looking at the actual production and impact of our offense in those games.
Posted By: Day of the Dawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
watson just went .500 because in part the defense stepped up and held the opponents to very low scores. They held the ravens to 3 points and the Browns won by scoring only 13 points as an example. In four of watsons six starts the Browns scored 10 points against the Bengals, 13 points against the Ravens, 10 points against the Saints and 14 points against the Steelers. And it seems rather odd to me that you never mentioned the name Dorsey until your last reply.

So yes, watson went .500 in his starts. And it may help those who wish to feel better about by not looking at the actual production and impact of our offense in those games.

I mentioned Dorsey all the way back on draft night. I thought that pick was terrible then and I think it was terrible now. Baker set this team back 10 years and our FO took a chance, and it was the only 1 available option to give this team a chance in the near future. Watson was that option and I applaud them for taking the chance. He is easily the best QB we have had since Bernie, and I believe having him on the team is the only reason we have to be optimistic about next year.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 08:19 PM
I meant in this thread, not in Dawgtalker history. I see the jury as far from being in on how this plays out. If it works out the way you and some seem to think it will, applause will be deserved. I find it odd that someone would applaud someone taking a gamble if they lose the bet. Usually applause is based on success or a good performance. That is as of yet undetermined.

I'll agree that 2020 watson is the best QB we've had since Bernie. 2021 watson was a no show in Houston and 2022 watson wasn't even close. I think you may have to excuse those of us that are in a wait and see mode as what watson brings before we decide whether it deserves applause or not.
Posted By: FATE Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 08:34 PM
You must really like this post! (I've never seen this before?)

[Linked Image from u.cubeupload.com]
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/26/23 08:37 PM
rofl Me either!
Posted By: lampdogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/27/23 05:01 AM
So Watson going 3-3 down the stretch is important? It really isn’t. We’ll find out much more in 2023.

The strange 2022 season is gone, I actually thought DW showed what he can be as our quarterback. When D-Dub gets in sync with our overall offense he’s going to thrive.

And yeah, I call him D-Dub.
Posted By: GMdawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/27/23 12:38 PM
Quote
One of the declines I noticed about Watson's performance once he returned was his "mental decline". Watson's ability to process information clearly was affected more than I expected. To be honest, I didn't even think about the mental part of the game but once I saw him on the field, it was clear that two years away from football affected his ability to process information.

1 second in processing for a QB can be the difference in a Hall Of Famer, and career clipboard holder.
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/27/23 01:58 PM
I really have no concerns that Watson will regain the form that made him a top 5 QB - even if he never gets back to top 5 based on the crazy rating systems out there that are quoted as gospel...but I digress.

I am much more worried about:

A disinterested, underachieving LT;

An oft-injured, very-good-when-healthy RT;

A Center position that either goes with a 'hope' or takes up some cap space to keep a good thing going;

Having a $50MM/yr QB throwing to a very solid #2-type receiver and a bunch of guys who are either good stories or have 'potential'...but who wouldn't sniff the field for the current AFC North Division Champs;

A TE who had a nice season (finally) being able to keep it up and take another step;

A kicker with an apparent case of the yips;

A team built to run that will transition to a team built to pass...see all of the above.

Watson? I'm not worried about the on-the-filed Watson...not really at all.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/27/23 03:15 PM
3 Deshaun Watson stats to consider in rebuilding Browns offense
Updated: Jan. 25, 2023, 4:40 p.m.|Published: Jan. 25, 2023, 12:12 p.m.
By Dan Labbe, cleveland.com

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Browns are setting out to build an offense around and for Deshaun Watson this offseason.

“We are going to sit down. Met with him today,” Watson said the day after the season ended about working through the offense with head coach and play-caller Kevin Stefanski. “We are going to have a man-to-man conversation. Nothing negative or anything like that, but just what can we do to be better offensively and as a team.”

What are some realities to consider with Watson? Stefanski has never called a full season of plays for a quarterback of his caliber or one who plays the way Watson plays. The two will have to find a way to meet in the middle to figure out how to get the best out of each other.

Let’s dig into some data from Pro Football Focus to figure out the type of player Watson is and has been at his best and the things to consider as this offense gets rebuilt.

Most stats are filtered to include only quarterbacks who took at least 20% of the highest number of snaps.

The ball won’t always come out quickly
From Week 13 on, Watson was second in the league among qualified quarterbacks in time to throw on all dropbacks at 3.35 seconds. On dropbacks ending in a pass attempt, he was tied with Miami’s Skylar Thompson for the longest time to throw at 3.13 seconds.

Don’t worry about the other names with Watson in these rankings. The point here is Watson is going to be in the pocket longer and generally take longer to throw the football. This has been the case throughout his career.

Watson was tied with Josh Allen for fifth in longest time to throw in 2020 at 2.99 seconds, though the ball was coming out faster on plays ending in a pass attempt, 2.64 seconds, 14th in the league.

In 2019, Watson was second behind Lamar Jackson in all pass dropbacks at 2.97 seconds but, again, on pass attempts, was at 2.64 seconds, tied for 18th.

It was similar in 2018 when he was third behind Allen and Jackson on all dropbacks at 3.17 seconds, though slower on plays when he attempted a pass -- 2.84 seconds, which was fourth longest.

The takeaway here is while Watson’s time in the pocket was generally on par with his career numbers, the ball wasn’t coming out quite as quickly, an indication he wasn’t completely comfortable in the offense quite yet, meaning he was relying more on his athleticism and ability to keep plays alive.

The task here is to meld Watson’s ability to keep a play alive while giving him the ability to again get the ball into his receivers’ hands quicker than he did this season. This will never be the Tom Brady or Drew Brees “drop back and the ball is out” offense -- it’s not how Watson plays and trying to turn him into that type of quarterback would be taking away what makes him special.

More time on task and a better understanding of the offense will lead to the ball coming out faster when things are right and make his ability to stay on his feet and keep plays alive even more dangerous when things break down.

He will create his own pressure
Not all pressures are on the offensive line and, hand in hand with the above point, Watson will bear some of the responsibility for pressure created.

Among qualified quarterbacks over the season’s last six weeks, Watson was sixth in pressures he was responsible for creating and had the highest percentage of dropbacks with some responsibility for pressure.

Bad, right? Not really.

A few of the quarterbacks ahead of Watson in the former stat were Justin Herbert, Trevor Lawrence and Patrick Mahomes while Josh Allen and Tom Brady weren’t far behind.

In the latter stat, Jalen Hurts was second.

A player who plays like Watson will put a strain on his offensive line at times and create pressure of his own making, but it can be worth it because of what he can do when he buys time and makes plays off script.

Watson was fourth in pressures he created in 2020 and was fifth in percentage in which he carried some responsibility. In 2019, he was 10th and sixth, respectively.

Pressure isn’t always an offensive line stat and there will be times when it appears Watson is under fire -- and sometimes he’ll do it to himself -- but it’s worth it because he can make magic.

Depth of target needs to increase
Over the final six weeks of the season, Watson attempted 13 passes of 20 or more yards -- which PFF qualifies as deep attempts -- tied for 24th in the league. It was just 7.6% of his throws, 38th among qualified quarterbacks.

Is this a perfect stat? No. Zach Wilson had the highest percentage of throws over 20 yards and Mahomes was 25th at 11.5% over the season’s final six weeks, but there is something here to keep in mind.

In 2020, Watson was ninth in deep attempts and players ahead of him included the likes of Mahomes, Brady, Allen, Aaron Rodgers and Herbert -- and Drew Lock, just for fun. Watson was 18th in percentage of deep throws at 12.3%, right behind Mahomes.

Watson was tied for seventh in 2019 in attempts and fifth in attempt percentage and, while PFF’s grades can be flawed, it’s at least worth noting he had the league’s second-highest grade on deep throws.

Watson’s average depth of target (ADOT) in 2019 was 9.1 yards (tied for 11th) and 9.4 yards (fifth in the league) in 2020.

In his six games with the Browns, his ADOT was 7.9 yards, 28th in the league. (We’ll note, again, Mahomes was below Watson here, too.)

Why does it matter? Watson has generally been an aggressive quarterback who throws deep. Only once before this season was his ADOT below nine and it was barely below at 8.9 yards in 2018.

There are a few factors to consider here, beginning with the health of Amari Cooper, who was dealing with a core injury over the season’s final five weeks.

Outside of Cooper, however, the Browns lack a serious deep threat. Donovan Peoples-Jones helps, but they need to add more speed to their receiver room, especially given Anthony Schwartz’s lack of development. It’s a priority on par with defensive tackle and edge rusher.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/27/23 04:08 PM
Normally Dan Labbe is not someone I pay much attention too.

However, I do not disagree with anything in this article.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/27/23 04:21 PM
I will add that I expect the look of the offense to change. More 11 personal and more shotgun.

I expect to see more use of the entire field. Using horizontal to create vertical.

I think Njoku will have higher numbers and we will see less of other TE's. Hunt will leave. Ford will need to show all he can do. So, the Browns can figure out how to use him.

Bell, Schwartz, and Wright need to be looked at closely. The Browns have to decide who can and will develop and who will not.

Right now it is Cooper, DPJ and Njoku. One of the others has to step up or we need to go get someone.

The offense will be designed to get maximum use of all DW can do. That is why he is here.
Posted By: DawgPound75 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/27/23 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by lampdogg
Because he’s a top 5 QB, a potential franchise-changer. And that’s just how it is.


WAS a top 5 QB.
POTENTIAL franchise changer

Nobody knows what we will get in 2023. NOBODY!!!!!!!!

I believe we see a better version of DW in 2023. If he is not a top 5 QB, he better be trending that way and the Browns better be in the playoffs.
With a new DC and better QB play anticipated the expectations are real.


As much as the believers say DW will be back and better than ever, Most of us would like to see it.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/27/23 06:37 PM
Just a general note about DW - while I am somewhat hopeful of him improving and being good enough to take us to the playoffs and win post season games .... I think there's an important clarification to be made in the discussion about this year's performance and next year's improvement and what to expect / what's expectable or makes the trade collateral and contract worthwhile ....

Unfortunately - for me at least - the way that Watson played in 2022 leaves a LOT of room for improvement, and he could still be an average NFL QB in 2023. Let's face it - rust, mental attrition, time with the play book - whatever reason/excuse you want to give Watson for 2022, and no matter how expected or otherwise ... he played badly or below average for most of his 6 games. He played one exemplary half. When we talk about expecting to see improvement - of course. Absolutely. Otherwise the trade wasn't bad, it was monumentally, epically bad. But seeing big improvement and then seeing Watson rank somewhere in the 16-14 range as a QB, middle of the pack - would still be a fail.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/27/23 07:02 PM
While some may not like your post, business is all about risk verses reward. In that context your post was very accurate.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/27/23 07:25 PM
We can all guess.

The way I see it. I expect him to be what he was and better.

He was a great college player. He took over games when they had to win the game. He did it.

In Texas on a bad team he showed what he could do in the NFL. Other players saw it and they knew how good he was.

Other NFL organizations were prepared to give up what we did to get him. That means lots of eyes on him coming to the conclusion he is worth it.

Six games after 11 games played in season is hardly a fair sample size. Throw in close to two years away. Then place all the outside stuff spinning in the background while he going to a new team. The team and DW not knowing how long he is going to be out. There is a mental side to all this. Nobody with all that going on is going to have a free mind.

Eleven games is handed out. The team prepares for Jacoby and installs the offense to him. Play action run dependent. Get the ball out on time.

DW comes to play the final six games. He showed enough to see that the skills are there. Inconsistent? Yes. Uncomfortable? Yes. Did he make some good plays? Yes.

2023. The offense will not be play action and run centric. We will not be using two TE's. We will see more shotgun. The offense will be built with DW having input. There will be a full camp. He will not be splitting time. The future will be known not unknown. He will not have to deal with all the unknowns of outside. He lives in Cleveland. He plans to work the entire off season in Cleveland. He knows what is on the line for himself and the team. His mind should be clear.

Deshaun Watson is a top five quarterback. I expect him to play that way and I see no reason why he will not.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/27/23 07:44 PM
I think the biggest difference is that some of us aren't trying to guess. Not that there's anything wrong with that. I don't recall anyone say that they believe he will fail. What I have seen is some guess that he will be a huge success, and even one giving that success odds of a 0.05% chance of failing. That's pretty damned sure right there. lol

What I have seen more than anything else is those that say we don't know which way it will work out, which is an actual non opinion or guess, get pasted in a negative light. Not by you per say. I believe most everyone on this board are hoping for the best results possible.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/27/23 08:57 PM
I'm old enough to remember when "weather games" used to be a thing. Dropped passes were a thing. Supporting cast was a thing. Receivers not getting open were a thing.

That was a long time ago. LOL
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/27/23 10:02 PM
The good thing is we will not have to guess.

We all will get to see first hand. The bad part is; not till September.

I know for certain. I would not be to fired up if he was not on the Browns. It has been brutal going through quarterbacks. Baker gave me some light. He was like a candle. I wanted it to work. But the candle blew out.

Now I want mega watts full blast.

Mahomes, Burrow, Allen, Herbert, Lamar hard to win against teams that have young studs like that.

Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/28/23 12:24 PM
One NFL insider believes Watson may never return to form
Jacob Roach
Fri, January 27, 2023 at 11:32 AM EST

Washington Post NFL insider Jason La Canfora joined 92.3 the Fan in Cleveland on Wednesday and discussed several topics including Deshaun Watson. La Canfora believes that Watson’s struggles are mental and that they are beyond football. Pointing out that he had such a great reputation for charity work in the community and that it is all turned upside down likely forever.

They talked about how before the allegations came out most people would have never suspected Watson would do those sorts of actions. La Canfora thinks that it could all be too much and that what you saw in 2022 might be the new normal for the Browns quarterback.

That would be an absolute nightmare for the Browns and would set the franchise back yet again. Will time and another offseason help Watson return to form or will the trade be an even more damaging one, only time will tell.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/28/23 01:34 PM
I am glad you posted this.

Jason La Canfora is the biggest hack in his profession. He got bounced from NFL Network because he sucks to put it mildly.

He is nothing now but a guy who puts out headlines to attract hits.

So this yo yo is somehow in DW's head? Really?

"La Canfora thinks that it could all be too much and that what you saw in 2022 might be the new normal for the Browns quarterback."
"He thinks." I think he doesn't have a clue.

He somehow knows how DW will perform in 2023? Pray tell.

DW is 27 years old and this nobody has the ability to forecast his career?

Please look elsewhere.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/28/23 02:24 PM
It's just another opinion out there - right or wrong. I totally agree with your opinion though, nobody has the ability to forecast his career at this point - good or bad.
Posted By: FATE Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/28/23 02:48 PM
Would you mind including links with your stories? Half the time I've never heard of the writer / site and would like to go directly to the website.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/28/23 03:02 PM
I posted a link to an article where NFL executives were questioned about a number on different topics.

https://brownswire.usatoday.com/2023/01/24/browns-break-through-exec-survey-2023/

"NFL executives around the league on a wide variety of questions, one of which was which teams would break through in 2023. The Browns, along with the Detroit Lions, received the most votes among those surveyed:"

I would place way more value from NFL executives than Jason La.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/28/23 03:08 PM
https://www.yahoo.com/sports/one-nfl-insider-believes-watson-163236652.html
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/28/23 03:21 PM
Deshaun Watson must sit for deposition in latest civil lawsuit.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.c...-for-deposition-in-latest-civil-lawsuit/
Posted By: FATE Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/28/23 03:27 PM
Thanks.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/28/23 04:09 PM
It's not out of the realm of possibility that DW's legal troubles are still weighing on his mind. I know it would bother me. I'm not making excuses for him but everyone was talking about him being rusty when he came back and that's a plausible argument but the mental aspect is something to consider too. JMO
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/28/23 04:16 PM
I agree, it has to weigh on him. I also believe him being forced into giving a deposition will not shed any positive light on him. It will throw him front and center in the press and not in a good way. We'll just have to wait and see - looks like he has until around April 10th to comply. Hopefully this doesn't lead to Watson 2.0 this off season.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/28/23 11:14 PM
j/c:

This is fun, huh?
Posted By: FATE Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/28/23 11:32 PM
Always.

Makes me want to start a Josh Gordon thread.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 12:09 AM
Yeah, but that's only because you're a Holcomb Humper.
Posted By: FATE Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 12:58 AM
Dude played with a broken leg! Now our dudes have to rest through practice all week!
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 01:06 PM
But it was a non-throwing leg. Big deal.
Posted By: eotab Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 01:34 PM
Back to the "Trade"

I actually never thought the skill set of DW would be a variable in the evaluation of "The Trade".

All I did say was that he had an incredible 2020 season statistically and that the only thing that bothered me was the team was 4-12 despite his great play.
It sort of backed my claim that DEFENSE wins championships.

What makes the Trade good or bad is the loss of FIRST ROUND PICKS in 3 straight seasons. Last year it was #13 This year it is #12. We could have gotten Jordan Davis my favorite player of the draft. 340 and runs like a TE.
This year at #12 we could get Bresee DT Clemson, Quentin Johnson WR TCU, Paris Johnson OT Ohio State, Lucas Van Ness DE Iowa any one that can be there at number 12. Losing out on these sort of Impact players for 3 years will leave a void and also trying to fill those voids with FA talent will have us in Cap Hell.

Now to top it off I was shocked at how much Watson had negatives. He did not show the skills of seeing the field, he held onto the ball way too long and he took off from the pocket way too soon a big time nono in my book. I expected rust but not that much.

The other thing nobody talks about is the danger of this trade having Watson leave after 5 years the length of the contract. If we do not win and be in the playoffs every year 2023-2026 - why would he staty when he could be a FA again and get another whopping deal with signing bonus and guarantees.

He will not be loved by Browns fans to the degree other QBs would cause of the Sexual misconduct. So I don't know if he would like to make this his home? What would help is if he would get married and have a family that would get fans in his corner again.

jmho
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 02:32 PM
Everything you stated is a consideration.

However, there are other ways to look at the trade.

Does defense win championships? Sometimes. If the defense is like the 85 Bears.

KC, Bengals, Eagles, 49er's. The 49er's have the top defense.

KC is the top ranked offense. Number two is the Bengals. The Eagles number three. Bills four. 49er's 6th.

If you can not score and keep up with these teams. Most likely you will not be playing them in the post season.

Yes there is no question that 3 first round picks is a heavy price. However, I think you have to consider Watson in return as a first rounder at least. In addition there were other teams willing to give up the same picks.

Also you have to consider that the Browns decided against resigning BM. If DW went to another team. What would be the cost "to find" another starting quarterback?

IMO looking at a six game sample after 11 games have been played is hardly a adequate sample size. Thrown in his absence from football.

He played 6 games. They won three. The Saints loss was in horrible conditions.

I think given all the factors involved when you look at his performance in six games. What counts is that you see the skills if only sporadically. Because going forward he is the starter. He will have the entire off season to prepare in "his offense." He will not be splitting time. There is no pending suspension.

The only way to really judge "The Trade."

Is if Deshaun Watson wins a Super Bowl with the Browns. If he does that. It was worth it. If he wins more than one? It was worth more and than some.

If he wins a Super Bowl by 2026 he will be 31. I doubt he will go anywhere.

Between now and then maybe he will get married and have kids.
Posted By: mac Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 03:31 PM
Quote
fill those voids with FA talent will have us in Cap Hell.

EO...I just got done with a post in the thread Browns-news-notes #2 that touched on the subject of Cap-Hell...

IMO, the Browns are already experiencing Cap-Hell ramification as the franchise finds itself in the red by $14.4 million in 2023 and with future projections showing the Browns dead last carrying "the most Cap debt" of the 32 teams and those projection appear to remain for the next 4 seasons.

Hopefully this financial situation is just temporary but until something changes, it appears that the Browns will be forced to pinch pennies.
Posted By: Iluvmyxstripper Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 03:56 PM
Defense winning championships is more exception than rule
That's like saying the Beta Max is the still the best way
To view movies
30 of the 52 Super Bowl winners scored over 30 points
I think less than 10 of the past championship teams
That hoisted the trophy scored under 20 points
Want to get to the SB. ? Secure you a franchise QB that
Is great to elite SKILLS and a myriad of offensive weapons

Kinda funny no team that was building for a SB run
Beginning with the draft never said " we need a FRANCHISE LB
or FRANCHISE DE"

if your offense can't put up a average of 26 points a game
Forget about a championship or even playoffs
That Ravens team with Ray Lewis or the 85 Bears
Team, those teams were had very good running games
And special teams to go with those defenses
Did those reams go to the SB the year after....uh no.

The Browns will only go as far as the offense takes them
I predicted before the season started the same thing
And the WR group would be the downfall of the offense
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 04:09 PM
The Bengals' selection of Ja'Marr Chase at No. 5 overall in the 2021 NFL Draft, otherwise known as the spurning of offensive tackle Penei Sewell, was a watershed moment in the NFL. The Bengals had just lost Burrow to an ACL. Everyone thought they needed a LT to protect their franchise guy.

Chase has proven to be the guy that has gotten the Bengals to be where they are.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 04:43 PM
j/c:

A couple of thoughts on the recent conversation.

The trade? I applaud the trade. The Browns did not have a qb and are in a conference loaded w/excellent, young QBs. It was next to impossible in acquiring an elite qb and the Browns won a bidding war w/other teams to get Watson. No, Watson does not guaranteed success for the Browns. But, at least we tried and there is a chance that he does lead us to greater heights. We had NO chance before the trade.

I have a ton of examples of other teams who have made trades for qbs, but I will only list a few for the sake of space and time.

RGIII: Washington gave up 3 1st round picks and 1 2nd rounder. In total, they surrendered 8 players to acquire RGIII. [A side note: Trent Richardson was the 3rd overall pick in the draft after Washington took RGIII.

Jared Goff: Two 1st rounders, two 2nd rounders, and 2 3rd round picks.

Carson Wentz: Two 1st rounders, a 2nd rounder, and a 4th.

I don't know about you, but I would rather have a guy who has proven it in the league than a one who has not, provided that the player isn't older. Watson is young.


Contract length: How many QBs have left their teams in FA during their prime? Are there any? Brady left NE a couple of years ago, but he was in his 40s. Who else? I think worrying about Watson bolting after 5 years is a stretch. The Browns will do what they need to do to keep him if he warrants being retained, just like almost every other team who has a true franchise qb.


Holding the Ball/Leaving the Pocket too early: Watson did hold the ball too long this year. We did have a qb who held the ball longer than any other qb in the league and the folks who are complaining about Watson holding the ball refused to acknowledge that fact. In fact, they blamed the OL. I can pull up an OL thread that mac started just last year if one needs a reminder. I won't blame the OL. I admit that Watson held the ball too long this year. It's about the truth rather than agendas. I will say that he did not leave the pocket too early. In fact, I think he stayed in it too long on occasion.

Salary Cap and the Draft: I trust our FO to handle the salary cap. They are extremely intelligent men. I have faith they will do what needs to be done in order to fill out the roster. Hell, they already signed Conklin after some said he was going to be gone. Losing the first round picks is tough, but you just don't have many opportunities to acquire a QB the caliber of Watson. His situation was unique. We got lucky and our owner and FO got the deal done. Leading the league in Cap Room and draft picks never excited me much as I viewed teams that went 1 and 31.

There are no guarantees in the NFL, but I feel better about our chances than I did before the trade. The organization sucked it up and acquired a ton of draft capital and cap space in the infancy of their regime. Now was the time to push the chips to the center of the table and make a real run at cashing out on the greatest prize of all. There are no guarantees that we win big, but at least we now are in the game w/a chance.
Posted By: mac Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 04:52 PM
Quote
I can pull up an OL thread that mac started just last year if one needs a reminder. I won't blame the OL.


Please do...show me what you have ...mac
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 05:01 PM
I think your post proves that you can trade for "an elite QB" - and not get what you thought you were going to get. Wentz and RG3 flashed for maybe 2 years a piece. Goff never did anything in LA - has done better with Detroit.

I think if you went to the organizations and ask if they could have a do over with any of those examples - they probably would. If Watson ends up with similar career performances of any of those QB's you listed the Browns organization failed .... you can applaud the effort to acquire a QB you want/hope to be a top 5 QB in the NFL --- but the actual success of the trade is entirely based on results. If the results are marginally better than the guy he replaced, it was a fail.
Posted By: Iluvmyxstripper Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish
The Bengals' selection of Ja'Marr Chase at No. 5 overall in the 2021 NFL Draft, otherwise known as the spurning of offensive tackle Penei Sewell, was a watershed moment in the NFL. The Bengals had just lost Burrow to an ACL. Everyone thought they needed a LT to protect their franchise guy.

Chase has proven to be the guy that has gotten the Bengals to be where they are.
What's interesting about the Chase selection and overlooked
Is that Jamar Chase and Burrow already had established chemistry.
I'm surprised NFL teams who drafted a QB high since then
Hasn't took a WR from the same university provided their
Is one available
WRs win games RTs don't.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 05:21 PM
Spin away........

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.php/topics/1905620/the-browns-oline#Post1905620
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 05:24 PM
I don't think there is a set rule.

Every draft is different. Every player is different. Each team is in a different situation.

The previous Burrow Chase connection was a coincidence.

In most cases the draft philosophy is take the best player there when you pick.

The Chase pick probably was to a degree based upon Chase and Burrow already having played together. But also I think they determined that even though they had good receivers on the team Chase was a stud. Also, they must have concluded that they wanted to be dominant in the passing game.

It worked.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 06:35 PM
The point I was making in that portion of my post was that teams gave up all that equity for guys who had done absolutely nothing in the league because they had yet to play an NFL game while Watson has already proven to be an outstanding NFL qb.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 06:56 PM
Finding elite QB's in the NFL is very hard - what we gave up for Watson is not a high price to land a truly elite QB. We just gotta hope he's still as good as he once was - and that what he once was wasn't inflated or skewed because of the team he played for. Honestly don't think there is too much debate about that - if there is I haven't paid too much attention to it. What we'll find out next season is just how good DW is in 2023. I personally believe no matter how balanced and conservative a person's view point was regards Watson's expected level of play in 2022 after 2 years of not playing - I think he was underwhelming and disappointing thru 6 full games. I'm hopeful for a giant improvement - but I am also a little concerned. You and Bone and others have said - we'll find out. August seems a long way away but it'll be here before we know it.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 07:11 PM
And one of the two you mentioned said we'll find out by predicting a 0.005% of failure. That's a bout as close to a sure bet someone could possibly make in a we'll find out scenario.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 07:38 PM
Hell April seems like a long way away.

I go crazy at his time of year waiting for baseball. I don't watch much basketball mostly just playoffs. February is the Super Bowl and that is it. The Combine is ok but hardly. March maybe some of March madness.

My entire focus is for opening day of baseball. I am feeling really good about the Braves and Guardians.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 07:43 PM
I haven't and don't read every comment on each topic - I missed that one and the context of it. If I was to try and put a percentage on what my head/gut 'predicts' for various levels of play from DW next year it might go something like this:

- 2% chance he plays pretty much like we saw this year.
- 15% chance that he improves but continues to hold the ball too long, struggles to read defenses and is essentially a more athletic with better pocket awareness version of BM .
- Something like a 35% chance he's good, flashes elite but not consistently enough and ends up being a top 11-12 QB, good enough to win a lot of games with but probably not what you gave up all those picks and that contract for
- I think there's a 25% chance that he's as good as ever and depending on what metric you want to go by, he's at the bottom of any list of top 5 or 6 QB in the NFL.
- I think there's a 10% chance he's going to be mentioned in the same breath as Mahomes or Herbert.

There's 13% unaccounted for!! I guess that's to cover all the variations of gray in between those bands.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 07:45 PM
My kids are young enough that weeks, weekends, months and semesters fly by all too fast. Plus I have a LOT (life changing) going on right now 😁 August gonna be here way too soon ! LOL
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 07:53 PM
I have no idea as it pertains to percentages on what watson will do.. It's going to be whatever it is. I do predict there's a 100% chance some will call it a bust no matter what happens other than multiple championships and a 100% chance some will call it a a worthwhile trade even if the results are pretty limited from the perspective of the teams success.

Not a very bold prediction I know....
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 08:53 PM
Does your butt hurt from sitting on the fence like that?

I have no clue - was just throwing out numbers that maybe align with my feelings/hope/concerns. Nothing empirical - just emotive.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/29/23 09:55 PM
The way things have been with our Browns over the years I'll be happy with ONE Super Bowl victory with DW.
Posted By: mac Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/30/23 01:35 AM
vers...read the thread..my critique of the Browns OL was based on their performance after 11 games into the 2021 season. I praised the OLine for their performance run blocking and pointed out that the OL was having issues with sacks due to several issues.

Read my posts in the thread...

Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/30/23 04:13 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Does your butt hurt from sitting on the fence like that?

I have no clue - was just throwing out numbers that maybe align with my feelings/hope/concerns. Nothing empirical - just emotive.

What are you talking about!? I gave you two predictions with 100% certainty!

rofl
Posted By: eotab Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/30/23 04:30 PM
Defense wins championships. Too many of you are judging this on STATS. More and more I stand by my observation. Defense wins championships not always means the team must be #1 in all circuits. Bengals got over the hump because the got a defense that could get 3 n outs. What I am saying is a team will win Playoff games not by stats but by the D stepping up at the right time . But you have to have talent to do it. But not in every position The team must play together now sometimes it will be the top 3 defense that dominates. It doesn't have to be #1 I've always said I want a top 3 Defense. But in playoff games the defense must stand up and account for themselves.

Now on the subject of other teams were willing to make a trade for DW. I don't care what other teams do it is what the Browns do/did. Fact is nobody else made that trade - We did.

The kicker is the character issues the trade was bad enough but how many QBs actually sit out a season and demand to be traded, he might of been right or wrong but the fact is he did demand a trade and we got him signed for only 5 seasons 4 actually cause of the suspensionNot the Gung Ho loyalty we are getting. Egg shell walking. All I heard this offseason was OH we cannot fire Ski cause the DW might walk. Hearing that scared me also.

This elite QB is a myth until it becomes a reality and it probably will fingerscrossed but until it happens it is just a myth. worst case scenario it happen the LAST year of his contract so he would become a FA again.
jmho
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/30/23 06:22 PM
We can differ on opinions that is perfectly fine.

I have been clear on my opinions. I support the trade and KS.

Defense is important and it sure helps to be even top ten. But when you look at he AFC today. You see great quarterbacks and high scoring offenses.

Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/30/23 06:29 PM
Defense definitely wins Championships.

In fact, defense gets you to the playoffs. Our season is a great example of that with all of the early-season crapfests our defense had that cost us.

In the game last night, the team that last was able to stop the other offense went on to win. In games where you get into a shootout, the team that has the defense that can turn a 7 into a 3 even just once will win.

Offense gets the glory these days in todays Pinball NFL, but that actually further highlights the value of defense.
Posted By: FloridaFan Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/30/23 07:07 PM
Defense is the only side of the ball that can keep the opponent from score, and put up point themselves.

If your defense can't stop the opponent from scoring TDs it doesn't matter how good your offense is.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/30/23 08:25 PM
Quote
Now on the subject of other teams were willing to make a trade for DW. I don't care what other teams do it is what the Browns do/did. Fact is nobody else made that trade - We did.

Exactly! That is why I gave our organization so much credit for making the trade. Despite other teams wanting Watson, we were the ones who won the Watson Sweepstakes and came away w/a great qb when there seemingly was no hope. Great job by the Browns leadership in getting us a great player in the most important position in sports.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 01/31/23 03:27 PM
He certainly was a great player. We'll see what the future holds. Other teams didn't make the offer the Browns did. Only one team complained they didn't get the opportunity to match. It seems like when it comes right down to it, only one other team was willing to pay the hefty cost the Browns were willing to pay. The Browns gave watson what they thought was a fair offer. He rebuked them and crossed them off of his list. Then in a last minute desperation move, they sold the farm to get him. Desperation doesn't usually work out very well. Maybe this time that will end differently. Let's hope so.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/01/23 12:00 AM
We had to trade for DW whether it was popular or not. We weren't going to the Super Bowl with Baker. I realize that now. We needed a big upgrade at QB. Hopefully we got it.
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/01/23 01:44 AM
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
We had to trade for DW whether it was popular or not. We weren't going to the Super Bowl with Baker. I realize that now. We needed a big upgrade at QB. Hopefully we got it.


We had to trade for Watson because Baker threw a temper tantrum and demanded to be traded after we met with Watson.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/01/23 05:06 AM
Originally Posted by eotab
This elite QB is a myth until it becomes a reality and it probably will fingerscrossed but until it happens it is just a myth. worst case scenario it happen the LAST year of his contract so he would become a FA again.
jmho

I'm no fan of the trade, but I'm nervous about the part in white. Others say he has shown he is elite, but I haven't seen it... And him flopping would 100% be the browns-iest thing that could happen. But I heard what he said at the end of the season, and I see zero sense in wasting the offseason fretting about Watson. He will either be more of what he was this year or much improved. I can't imagine his pride will let him play that badly again, and I do think most of it was rust, the new team/situation/coaching, etc. So, we need to hit a pause on bashing the trade and see how next year plays out. If we finish under 500 next year, heads need to roll. And if we don't make the playoffs, the Watson deal becomes a nightmare (like the part in blue), and people will be talking bust. Finally, before certain people respond with spite, I would like to clarify that I am not hoping for DW to fail; on the contrary, that is what I fear with this whole situation and hope like hell we avoid.

Additionally, I'm still not ready to throw away 50 years of fandom over the Watson deal. But man, if we get a full season of what he did this year or something better but nowhere near elite and miss the playoffs again... I'd have to think long and hard about sticking around. I'm tired of feeling like we are almost there. Many of us thought this would be our year before this trade. What we ended up getting was another dose of battered Browns Fan material to stew on all season. go browns... rolleyes

My question for everyone regarding the Watson deal is: Putting aside any bias for or against Watson and providing specifics, please define your expectations for next season and what would qualify for a Boom, Solid, Meh, and Yuck season to you. This should lead to more constructive conversation and less trifling pettiness.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/01/23 01:00 PM
I backed the traded.

I expect DW to play like he played when he had a full off season to prepare. I expect to see the same player he was in college and in his time with Houston.

I see no reason at all for him to be different. I saw what I expected to see in the six games he played. Flashes.

There is a full off season to get ready for 2023. No splitting time. No mental anguish over a pending suspension and all that had to be in his head.

The offense has talent. KS has proven he can get the best from quarterbacks who play for him.

Football of course is all 53 players playing well together. Offense, defense, and special teams.

I expect playoffs and I believe that should be expected.
Posted By: Day of the Dawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/01/23 05:36 PM
My expectation for this team is to become a perennial playoff contender. I don't think it is realistic to expect the team to make the playoffs every year. But like the Steelers and Ravens have proved. With consistency and following a plan a team can be a constant threat to be in the post season and when healthy and a few breaks fall your way a serious threat to get to and win Super Bowls. I expect nothing less from this team. For 20+ years the franchise tried unsuccessfully to acquire a franchise QB although, I thought they gave up on a few too soon before they found adequate replacements (Derek Anderson and Brian Hoyer). They finally went all in to acquire a franchise QB and now they must install a plan to achieve consistency. I don't want to see us pull a Rams let's put all our eggs in 1 basket season and then back to the bottom of the totem pole. Although, if it was a near certainty, they would win 1 Super Bowl I would be all in. Problem is the Rams barely won that SB last year and if they had lost that all in gamble would have been for naught. Follow the Steelers Big Ben plan. Find the QB and devise a plan to contend year after year. Much like Marty did in the late 80's before Modell got impatient. Knock on the door year after year. Knock long enough and you will eventually kick it in.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/01/23 05:44 PM
I don't have expectations for things I can't control. I like the move of trading for Watson for the reasons I stated not too long ago in this thread. I think we have a chance. There are no guarantees, but we have a better chance w/Watson than we did w/any other qb options that were available to us at the time we made the trade. I hope we win. But, I'm not drawing lines in the sand and say this has to happen or that has to happen because again......I have no freaking control over what happens and no one of importance gives a rat's ass what I think.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/01/23 06:09 PM
And that's true. None of us can control it and that's certainly one way to look at it. But the other, and what I think is a more realistic way of looking at this is the reality that football is a business. Each team is a billion dollar corporation that is in a conglomerate of 32 teams that make up a very large corporation. The NFL.

As with all businesses they make investments and the expected return on that investment is very real. Corporations don't invest this heavily in anything without factoring in the risk/reward portion. So I think it's quite understandable that people ask what that is. At what point would the reward of watson be equal or greater to the investment?

I understand those who wish to look at it purely from the fan perspective and not wish to hold the reward portion accountable in relationship to the investment. But that's not quite how the real world works.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/01/23 07:23 PM
Football is a business. It's a business that guys like me don't run. Like all consumers, I have a choice to buy the product or not. That is my choice.

I can guarantee you that Haslam doesn't care what expectations Vers from Dawg Talkers has. He runs his business as he and his trusted advisors want to. I can pretty much guarantee that they do prioritize winning and are trying their best.

I just get a chuckle when folks come on here and say things like "I don't want to hear anymore excuses." I say.........."Or what?" Their just idle words spoken by people who think they are more important than they really are. The only thing that they can really do is stop supporting the team. Fine. Stop supporting them and move on to something else. Who cares?
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/01/23 07:27 PM
Nobody said he cared what any of us thought. But he cares what he expects from his investment. As I said in my previous post......

Quote
I understand those who wish to look at it purely from the fan perspective and not wish to hold the reward portion accountable in relationship to the investment. But that's not quite how the real world works.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/01/23 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I just get a chuckle when folks come on here and say things like "I don't want to hear anymore excuses." I say.........."Or what?" Their just idle words spoken by people who think they are more important than they really are. The only thing that they can really do is stop supporting the team. Fine. Stop supporting them and move on to something else. Who cares?

It's a figure of speech. It's how people talk when they are having a discussion about things. In reality no-one on this board, for the most part, actually talks about and reveals personal things in their lives that they do control and can/do influence. Pretty sure people have used the same expressions about plenty of other players on the team since 1999 that were supposed to be good and struggled. Drafted high and struggled. Got injured or had other things going on and then struggled. . . just normal conversation.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/01/23 11:32 PM
And what does that have to do with "our" expectations? Absolutely nothing.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/02/23 02:16 AM
We get it; you have no expectations. I DO have expectations as a fan, and it's cool if you think that is stupid. What do you know about being a fan? I think everyone is a fan in their way. Some buy Jerseys and go to games, others watch with friends and get together, and others watch from the comfort of home with or without company. I don't think it's even possible to define "what a fan is or does" in a way that would cover all the variations. You can see a bunch of variations right here every day. So, I get how you feel, Vers, but I think the conversation is big enough for two views.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/02/23 02:20 PM
I am not trying to stop you from having your own opinion. I was just answering your question honestly from my point of view.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/02/23 04:34 PM
Well I guess that is a comfortable position to be in. I mean if you have absolutely no expectations you can never be disappointed with the outcome. It also holds nobody accountable should things go poorly. I mean they tried and spent a lot of money so that makes everything good.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/02/23 05:40 PM
Why do you care about my position? My position doesn't affect you in any way. It's my own. The only reason you would care is that you feel some need to control the opinions of others.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/02/23 06:04 PM
WTH are you talking about? The least of my concerns are your opinions. I just find it a very convenient opinion so as not to hols anyone responsible if the Browns do poorly.

You may wish to consider how this started out if you wish to actually look at who tried to control the narrative here. It was you who asked posters so what when they did have high expectations. That nobody in this FO or coaching staff cared about their expectations. Or did you forget about that? How did their opinions affect you in any way? You just love to start crap and then whine it's somebody elses fault when it gets turned around on you.

And yes, this FO does care about the expectations of the fan base. Why else would they pay a kings ransom for a QB? Unless of course you think it was done only to please their own goals. As with any corporation pleasing their consumer base is of great importance to them.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/02/23 06:07 PM
You have serious issues.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/02/23 06:10 PM
Back at ya.
Posted By: Day of the Dawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/02/23 06:19 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
WTH are you talking about? The least of my concerns are your opinions. I just find it a very convenient opinion so as not to hols anyone responsible if the Browns do poorly.

You may wish to consider how this started out if you wish to actually look at who tried to control the narrative here. It was you who asked posters so what when they did have high expectations. That nobody in this FO or coaching staff cared about their expectations. Or did you forget about that? How did their opinions affect you in any way? You just love to start crap and then whine it's somebody elses fault when it gets turned around on you.

And yes, this FO does care about the expectations of the fan base. Why else would they pay a kings ransom for a QB? Unless of course you think it was done only to please their own goals. As with any corporation pleasing their consumer base is of great importance to them.

Why did they pay a king's ransom as you say for a QB. In 2020, they saw this team as close and went and added pieces in 2021 and felt they had the best roster in the NFL. They arguably did! Then got passed up by the Bengals because the Bengals had a far superior QB to what they had. They felt then and still feel today they have a window to win and needed to get a QB that was equal to their competition. Did they do it for the fan base? I don't know. There were quite a few Baker fans. So, I would say they made an evaluation, and the decision was made popular or not because they want to win.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/02/23 06:27 PM
I see you missed the point by a country mile. The point is they do care about what the fans think. The fans are their customer base. That's why they went that far to sign watson and pay that much money to make it happen. Of course the owner and FO care about the fans. They can't do so to the point they control their every move. But people shouldn't fool themselves into believing they aren't at the very least trying to appease the fan base.
Posted By: Floquinho Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/05/23 05:26 AM
Originally Posted by Day of the Dawg
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
WTH are you talking about? The least of my concerns are your opinions. I just find it a very convenient opinion so as not to hols anyone responsible if the Browns do poorly.

You may wish to consider how this started out if you wish to actually look at who tried to control the narrative here. It was you who asked posters so what when they did have high expectations. That nobody in this FO or coaching staff cared about their expectations. Or did you forget about that? How did their opinions affect you in any way? You just love to start crap and then whine it's somebody elses fault when it gets turned around on you.

And yes, this FO does care about the expectations of the fan base. Why else would they pay a kings ransom for a QB? Unless of course you think it was done only to please their own goals. As with any corporation pleasing their consumer base is of great importance to them.

Why did they pay a king's ransom as you say for a QB. In 2020, they saw this team as close and went and added pieces in 2021 and felt they had the best roster in the NFL. They arguably did! Then got passed up by the Bengals because the Bengals had a far superior QB to what they had. They felt then and still feel today they have a window to win and needed to get a QB that was equal to their competition
. Did they do it for the fan base? I don't know. There were quite a few Baker fans. So, I would say they made an evaluation, and the decision was made popular or not because they want to win.

They felt they have the best roster in the NFL”!?!?

Deshaun Watson will never win a Super Bowl with the Cleveland Browns. Those who want can quote me on that.

This post isn’t criticizing you Day of the Dawg. Your post is spot on but in a weird way it also highlight why the leadership in this organization is incompetent. Not even 230 millions can hide the lack of good leaders and cure an unhealthy culture.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/05/23 12:15 PM
"Deshaun Watson will never win a Super Bowl with the Cleveland Browns. Those who want can quote me on that."

That is like saying you know what the weather will be for four years.
Posted By: Floquinho Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/05/23 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish
"Deshaun Watson will never win a Super Bowl with the Cleveland Browns. Those who want can quote me on that."

That is like saying you know what the weather will be for four years.

Yes. The winter will be cold as usual and the summer will be warm. The same way DSW will not be good enough to win a SB. Not exactly rocket science to predict that.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/05/23 12:35 PM
Originally Posted by Floquinho
Originally Posted by bonefish
"Deshaun Watson will never win a Super Bowl with the Cleveland Browns. Those who want can quote me on that."

That is like saying you know what the weather will be for four years.

Yes. The winter will be cold as usual and the summer will be warm. The same way DSW will not be good enough to win a SB. Not exactly rocket science to predict that.

I think you are full of it and are only saying this because you don't like Watson.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/05/23 01:52 PM
Just say you don't want him too and be done with it.

Nobody predicts anything they only guess.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/05/23 04:05 PM
I think he may return to his 2020 form. He also may not. Trying to predict that is something that nobody can accurately do. Even if he does that doesn't insure a SB win or even a SB appearance. Everyone has to wait and see how that pans out.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/05/23 06:55 PM
We don't have to wait and see anymore, it is pretty clear what the Browns are and they aren't getting any better. I have no confidence in reports/things you read that the offense will be "totally different" next year. HILL>ARIOUS that is.
I don't think the Browns could fix the offense at this point if... if anything, anything at all.

and, but, Watson? "return to 2020 form?" What the #****? Did he win league MVP or something in 2020? I don't think he has won 2 playoff games in his career, I doubt he wins 2 on a Browns team that the league hates and discriminates against because they play in Ohio.

The Browns,,, can't develop anybody into a better player, not since Depo opened his office with the team, and, are they going to count on Woods, and Bell, and ... Harrison> for the love of goodness > Bryant to win games and make plays for you in crunch time in next year./. This years games??? Yeah, YA heck ya yep they are.
It's not going to work out, it's not hard to see, they aren't good, this isn't the league where , well...
It appears to be more of the same.
If ANYTHING new has been tried by the Browns since 20I7 I wonder what it is because it looks like nothing but the same old losing recipe
especially on offense
trying to hope "leftovers" can win a cooking contest. Twelfth place in the AFC and seven and ten, it's analytics ya'll, welcome to the same.
Posted By: Floquinho Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/06/23 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
Originally Posted by Floquinho
Originally Posted by bonefish
"Deshaun Watson will never win a Super Bowl with the Cleveland Browns. Those who want can quote me on that."

That is like saying you know what the weather will be for four years.

Yes. The winter will be cold as usual and the summer will be warm. The same way DSW will not be good enough to win a SB. Not exactly rocket science to predict that.

I think you are full of it and are only saying this because you don't like Watson.

Yes my friend I'm whatever you want me to be and being full of something is probably better then just being empty.

But to clarify a little bit the prediction that the Browns not winning a Super Bowl in the near future this rant isn't a question at Deshaun Watson's talent or ability. He's a freaking awesome QB when fit, healthy and in a mentally stabil condition. Not as good as Mahomes or Burrow but probably top 10 among all NFL QBs.

The thing we don't know is his future ability. Will he ever come back to his 2020 season form? i don't think so for various reasons. I think he's mentally drained after all the media circus surrounding his sex allegations. Im not sure about his character. When a highly respected female judge label him as a lier and a sexual predator then its only normal to question what kind of person he is. Two years without a competitive game is also a handicap I took into account.

All of that above raise question marks but I totally agree that we don't know exactly what kind of player we get in 2023. We can only make a qualified guess made on assumptions.


The much much bigger problem is the Browns owner, GM and HC. Not to mention our cap space. That's why I'm totally sure the Browns don't win the SB in the near future.

The Haslam's record speaks for itself. Feels free to convince me I'm wrong when I say they're one of the worst owners you can ever get.

Andrew Berry has done almost nothing so far to convince me he has what it takes. His drafts and FA are hit and misses. His handlings of high profile players is mediocre to bad at best. His press conference when he introduced DSW was a total fiasco, and that is to put it mildly. So far there's nothing in his CV that screams that he's an elite GM.

Kevin Stefanski is at best a top 15 HC in the NFL. Probably closer to top 20. Same with him there's nothing in his CV that tells us he's a elite HC. After 3 years his results speaks for itself. Mediocre. Boring.

None of Berry or Ski has elite leadership qualities. 3 years with them is enough to give me the information I need to make such a bold and harsh statement. I'm almost 60 years old with many many years experience in management so I'm quite sure I can spot the difference between an average and an elite leader.

If we had a better owner. If we had a HC like Andy Reid or Kyle Shanahan and a DC worth his salt then my prediction would have been different but with current set up including the misfit Paul DePodesta I'm totally convinced and relaxed when I'm saying the Browns will not win a SB in the next couple of years. Not nice being so negative but this's IMHO what a weak leadership do to a talented group of players.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/06/23 03:23 PM
You maybe can spot leadership qualities "if" you have direct experience.

But since you are not with the team your statement is unqualified.

Don't take it personal but what qualifies you to rank Stefanski?

Track any GM in the NFL and you will see all have hits and misses. Comes with the job. The draft at best is an educated guess.

Free agency is bang for the buck.

Many others inside the NFL who have had years covering teams in the North (Aditi Kinkhabwala) think very highly of Berry.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Predictions about winning a Super Bowl for any team in the next five years? Sorry, it carries no weight.
Posted By: Floquinho Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/06/23 05:16 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish
You maybe can spot leadership qualities "if" you have direct experience.

But since you are not with the team your statement is unqualified.

Don't take it personal but what qualifies you to rank Stefanski?

Track any GM in the NFL and you will see all have hits and misses. Comes with the job. The draft at best is an educated guess.

Free agency is bang for the buck.

Many others inside the NFL who have had years covering teams in the North (Aditi Kinkhabwala) think very highly of Berry.

You are entitled to your opinion.

Predictions about winning a Super Bowl for any team in the next five years? Sorry, it carries no weight.

Kevin Stefanski. Three years of mediocre results. A downward spiral. Losing winnable games. Talk talk talk… Do you need more?
Andrew Berry. Three years of mediocre results. A downward spiral. Controversies. Talk talk talk… Do you need more?
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/06/23 05:42 PM
There is plenty more.

If you look beyond the record.

May as well fire a bunch of coaches because their first three seasons were worse.

Bengals since 2019. During this time period, the Bengals compiled a 28-36-1 record.

Plenty others with the same results.

Of course doing what we have done in the past has been proven wrong.

Changing regimes has led to nowhere but failure.

Repeating mistakes and expecting different results. Defines insanity.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/06/23 05:50 PM
In the three seasons including 2019 you are referencing with the Bengals they won more games each year, not less games each year. And even more in the fourth year. In that third year you are speaking of they actually advanced to the SB.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/06/23 08:05 PM
Expectations of Continuous Improvement from our FO and Coaching Staff - what a freaking novel idea! Too bad going the other way has also been deemed as just as acceptable on this forum and by ownership.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/06/23 08:16 PM
I'm not nor have I advocated for anyone in this FO nor Stefanski to be fired. I do however think there should be no more excuses given nor accepted if next season isn't very successful. Supposedly this team was only a great QB away from being great and supposedly this FO got Stefanski that QB. If they didn't it's a mistake of epic proportions considering what they gave up to get him. So accountability is on deck and will be up to bat in the 2023 season.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/06/23 10:14 PM
I wasn't referencing you as wanting Berry or Stefanski fired. My point was that continuous improvement year over year has been nonexistent. Now entering year-4 you state:

Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So accountability is on deck and will be up to bat in the 2023 season.


Some of us here believe accountability should have been occuring since year 1.
Posted By: Day of the Dawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/06/23 10:20 PM
Originally Posted by steve0255
I wasn't referencing you as wanting Berry or Stefanski fired. My point was that continuous improvement year over year has been nonexistent. Now entering year-4 you state:

Originally Posted by PitDAWG
So accountability is on deck and will be up to bat in the 2023 season.


Some of us here believe accountability should have been occuring since year 1.

I think that accountability fell on the QB that Stefanski and Berry decided was not good enough to lead the team to where they wanted to get. The GM and coach before them brought him here and he could not deliver. They made a trade that will not pay off until this fall so that will re start their clock. 2021 was about that QB not having the ability to progress. 2022 was lost trying to get a replacement that had issues. Now 2023 they will start to get judged for their results.
Posted By: ScottPlayersFacemask Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/06/23 10:26 PM
Your prediction isn't anything special, shocking, or over the top. There are a just a couple consistent QBs that make the Super Bowl.

Generalization = all this talk about we could've competed with a average/above average QB. Please show me one below (I see just one, Flacco from 10 years ago). Our FO made the trade to give us a "chance" at reaching the playoffs consistently and a chance to reach the big game.

AFC Super Bowl QBs:
2023 - Mahomes
2022 - Burrow
2021 - Mahomes
2020 - Mahomes
2019 - Brady
2018 - Brady
2017 - Brady
2016 - Manning
2015 - Brady
2014 - Manning
2013 - Flacco
2012 - Brady
2011 - Roethlisberger
2010 - Manning
2009 - Roethlisberger
2008 - Brady
2007 - Manning
2006 - Roethlisberger


...I would be shocked if we don't go or win the Super Bowl

I
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/15/23 10:19 PM
Brutal.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/35532896/nfl-quarterback-contract-bargain-salary-best-worst

Best bargain: Patrick Mahomes

Make no mistake: With an average effective compensation for our purposes of just under $31 million (and even a 2022 cap hit under $36 million), Mahomes is an absolute bargain. He was by far the best and most valuable quarterback this season: His 132.8 clutch-weighted EPA total easily was first at the position (Josh Allen was second at 119.3) and well above expectations based on his earnings. In other words: Mahomes is worth many, many millions beyond what he's currently paid. In fact, even if we only considered the $46.8 million cap hit he's set to cost in 2023, he still would be a value at his current level of play.


Worst bargain: Deshaun Watson

It somehow went slightly under the radar just how badly Watson played in 2022 after returning from an 11-game suspension for violating the NFL's personal conduct policy by committing sexual assault, as defined by the league, on massage therapists. His QBR was 38.3 -- barely beating out Russell Wilson (37.0) and trailing far behind teammate Jacoby Brissett (59.9) -- over his six games with the Browns despite signing a deal with $230 million guaranteed last offseason. Lest you think this was just a volume thing: Even if we did this exercise on a per-snap basis Watson would still rank last in his category. Sure, his contract was made with future seasons in mind. But in 2022, even if we focus on only what he did on the field, Watson was the worst quarterback value by a mile. -- Seth Walder
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/15/23 10:42 PM
Absurd evaluation.

There is a difference between excuses and reasons.

2022 falls into the later. Anyone with any sense could see that.

Let's get real. Deshaun Watson has played in 60 NFL games. The last six took place under what anyone would call unusual circumstances.
I will leave it at that. Either understand or you don't.

If you really watch the six games instead of reducing them to a spread sheet. One can actually see first hand his performance. The Deshaun Watson who played the previous 54 games flashed his true ability.

IMO true evaluation lies in his 54 games not the last six. Look at the last time DW prepared for a full season and played a full season.

He will now have that opportunity in 2023.

The junk being handed out about his six games in 2022 IMO are meaningless.

2023 is a different story. However he plays will be a true representation of the player.
Posted By: Damanshot Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/15/23 11:04 PM
Watson sure looked like the worst bargain for sure but we need to wait until next year to be sure. after then, a decision should be easier.
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/15/23 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish
Absurd evaluation.

If you really watch the six games instead of reducing them to a spread sheet. One can actually see first hand his performance.

Gosh, I hope he has more to offer than what everyone saw first-hand.

In fact, if that was the case... I'd rather trade him for a conditional 2nd round pick in 2025 and resign Brissett.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/16/23 03:55 AM
Originally Posted by bonefish
Absurd evaluation.

There is a difference between excuses and reasons.

2022 falls into the later. Anyone with any sense could see that.

Let's get real. Deshaun Watson has played in 60 NFL games. The last six took place under what anyone would call unusual circumstances.
I will leave it at that. Either understand or you don't.

If you really watch the six games instead of reducing them to a spread sheet. One can actually see first hand his performance. The Deshaun Watson who played the previous 54 games flashed his true ability.

IMO true evaluation lies in his 54 games not the last six. Look at the last time DW prepared for a full season and played a full season.

He will now have that opportunity in 2023.

The junk being handed out about his six games in 2022 IMO are meaningless.

2023 is a different story. However he plays will be a true representation of the player.

I think some of the talking heads are playing the what-if game that ran through my mind on DW. If it works out in our favor, and he's stellar for years to come and has no further off-field issues, then it's a good trade. If he doesn't play at an elite level, at least top ten consistently, then we were fleeced.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/16/23 05:04 PM
I think you must consider that this evaluation is based on where things stand as of now. On the evidence presented at this point in time. And based on that there's nothing absurd about it. Anyone seeing this as absurd are using their crystal balls to predict the future and not looking strictly at the evidence at hand. Hopefully you and some others are correct in your predictions. But that's what they are. Predictions.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/16/23 05:15 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish


The junk being handed out about his six games in 2022 IMO are meaningless.

2023 is a different story. However he plays will be a true representation of the player.

Yes, and not at all.

What have you done for me lately? 2022 was a true representation of him as a player as well. You are what your most recent efforts show you are, so, until - and unless - he shows that he is still who he USED TO BE, then he isn't that player. You can discount that and hate on it all you want, but it won't change that fact. If this weren't true, then Deion would still be lining up across from #1's instead of promoting himself as a coach.

Now, does Watson have the potential and ability to come back and be the player he was? There is no real reason I can think of that he cannot be. 100%. In fact, it should be the baseline expectation to the degree that if he doesn't, he's a failure here. There really isn't any middle ground on that, either.

... but, with a full offseason here in Cleveland heading into autumn of 2022, I would have said the same things about him prior to him playing this past season, too. There's no real reason that I can think of that he was as bad as he was at times. Everyone keeps wanting to say "rust", but I don't buy that unless he just wasn't doing any work. He got here in March of last year and finally set foot on the field in what, December? He had at least EIGHT MONTHS to work on himself, the offense, and work with the guys on the team, and he wasn't remotely that bad even in preseason, nor - reportedly - in training camp.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/16/23 07:16 PM
You can look at this in the manner you choose.

However, 2022 was not by any stretch a normal preparation for DW to begin a season.

He was traded to a new team. His season was in question. The NFL wanted him gone for whole year. He was facing trial dates and he was being tried daily by the media and fans. The Browns had to prepare two different quarterbacks. Camp reps were split. Then he was removed from the team for 11 games.

Hard to practice on your own and simulate a game. Looking at the play book is not practicing with the team. Let alone real game reps.

No human being under the microscope of so many and under the circumstances he was living in is going to be mentally unaffected. When he did return after Jacoby played for 11 games. He came back to a team that was used to what Jacoby was doing.

One of the games was under extreme conditions. The team at that point was missing multiple players on a defense that could not stop the run.

They won 3 of 6 with DW. He did not play great but he did make some good plays.

So those six games are the "what have you done lately." OK if that is how you wish to view his ability.

Myself, I will place my view on his capabilities based on the 54 NFL games he played and what he did in his college career under what would be normal preparations for a season.

People can look at it as they choose too.

At this point it really means nothing. The 2023 season will begin and DW will go under the microscope. 2022 will be a distant meaningless memory.
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/16/23 08:41 PM
Not to cause an argument but I have a question I'd like your opinion on. You said: "No human being under the microscope of so many and under the circumstances he was living in is going to be mentally unaffected."

You do realize that Watson has been ordered to give a deposition on one of his cases and court dates should being set for one or both of the remaining suits. The press will most certainly be highly negative, and no one knows what might surface during the deposition or trials.

Do you have an opinion on whether this will again affect Watson and do you believe we as fans should give him the benefit of the doubt again in 2023 if he plays poor because "No human being under the microscope of so many and under the circumstances he was living in is going to be mentally unaffected?"

Just wondering because the legal problems with Watson are not over yet and if he was to lose one or both of the suits, 2022 will seem like a walk in the park compared to the scrutiny he'll get in 2023.
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/16/23 08:50 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish
Y

He was traded to a new team. The Browns had to prepare two different quarterbacks. Camp reps were split. Then he was removed from the team for 11 games.

Hard to practice on your own and simulate a game. Looking at the play book is not practicing with the team. Let alone real game reps.

No human being under the microscope of so many and under the circumstances he was living in is going to be mentally unaffected. When he did return after Jacoby played for 11 games. He came back to a team that was used to what Jacoby was doing.


Let's stop making excuses for Watson... Purdy and Watson were in somewhat similar boats.

Brock Purdy was the last player drafted in 2022 and on a team with an offense that was not designed for him. He didn't get any reps behind Jimmy G or Lance. He had to practice & simulate on his own with no real game speed. The team was use to Jimmy G & Lance when he became the starter through injury.

Purdy
6 Regular season games 67% completion% 1374 passing yards 13 TD 4 INT 107.3 RTG 65.6 QBR He went 6-0 in the regular season and won 2 playoff games

Watson
6 Regular season games 58.2% completion% 1102 passing yards 7TD 5 INT 79.1 RTG 38.3 QBR He went 3-3 in the regular season
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/16/23 08:57 PM
Well, when put like that, it seems Watson..........eh, has some work to do.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/16/23 09:11 PM
I can have an opinion but I do not walk in his shoes.

A year has passed. His suspension has been served.

He may still have to go to court. I have no idea if a settlement is still in play.

However, I would think he has weathered the worst of it. I have no opinion on the fans.

Because we follow the Browns IMO we are more in tune and more sensitive. Nationally IMO people have short memories and have moved on.

2022 he was going to a new city and team. He now knows his teammates and coaches. He is living in Cleveland.

This off season preparation and the coming practices and camp will prepare him for this year. In no way will it resemble 2022.

2023 stands alone now. DW and every member of the Browns organization are fully aware of what this season means.

Deshaun Watson is not going into a dark room for days. He knows how many people will be depending upon him.

DW has stepped on the big stage before. He led Clemson to the national title in 2016. He was a first round draft selection. He has faced a lot in his 27 years. IMO going forward this past year will be forgotten. He will do everything within his power to be ready to play at his best.

All I can do is hope that his best is good enough to lead the Browns to a Super Bowl win. I expect him to play well. I would never expect to win a Super Bowl.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/16/23 11:01 PM
The same guys who are trashing Watson are the same guys who made excuse after excuse for Baker.

There are no guarantees that the Browns will reach the promised land w/Watson, but at least they now have a chance. Then had no chance w/the trash qb that is Baker Mayfield. Glad our FO did not listen to the

It's okay to be wrong about a player, but refusing to acknowledge you were wrong is not a good look.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/16/23 11:06 PM
I do not think they were in similar boats at all.

If your opinion is he sucked. I am not going to try and change your mind.

It honestly makes no difference to me.

2023 is the focus.
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/17/23 01:01 AM
Originally Posted by bonefish


If your opinion is he sucked. I am not going to try and change your mind.


Watson sucked horribly last year. The reality is... we all have to hope and pray that he gets his act together and starts playing like a top 15 QB.

Watson's best game was against Washinton he went 9/18 (50%) for 169 yards with 3 TDs (almost 50% of his 6-game TD total)

The most passing yards Watson had was 276 against Cincy on 42 attempts

Against NO Watson threw the ball 31 times for a whopping 135 yards.... LOL!

4/6 games Watson was under 170 yards passing

The other game where he was over 170 yards... Pittsburgh. He was sacked a whopping 7 times.

Brisset was sacked 24 times in 11 games Watson was sacked 20 times in 6 games

Can you show me one game where Watson played well last year...

Just one game where you could say... WOW! That's my quarterback! That guy is going to take us places!
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/17/23 05:00 AM
Originally Posted by superbowldogg
Brock Purdy was ... on a team with an offense that was not designed for him. He didn't get any reps behind Jimmy G or Lance. He had to practice & simulate on his own with no real game speed.

and what's more, backups do this Every. Single. Year.
Without fail, backups come in after getting nearly zero reps once the season begins and only what they don't want the 1st team to get in training camp and they step in for whomever the starter was and they have a good season. Not all of them, but a decent enough number of them that it is FAR from an uncommon story.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/17/23 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
The same guys who are trashing Watson are the same guys who made excuse after excuse for Baker.

And the same people who accepted no excuses for Baker are now making excuses for watson. But just ignore that part.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/17/23 04:30 PM
j/c:

This is for those of you who think trading for Watson was terrible and that he isn't a good qb due to his poor play in the last 6 games of last season.

What should the Browns have done w/the QB position instead of trading for Watson? The Browns thought they had a good roster and could compete for the Super Bowl in the next few years. Who should they have got instead of Watson? Carson Wentz? Marcus Mariota? Jimmy G? Andy Dalton? Should they have kept a guy who fell behind Sam Darnold and PJ Walker this year and is about to be on his 4th team in less than a year? A guy who only was claimed by one team when he was put on waivers? Should they have drafted Malik Wilis in the draft?

Once again, there are no guarantees.......but, I think the Browns are "prioritizing winning" and they made the bold move of acquiring the best qb that was available.
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/17/23 04:48 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
j/c:

This is for those of you who think trading for Watson was terrible and that he isn't a good qb due to his poor play in the last 6 games of last season.

What should the Browns have done w/the QB position instead of trading for Watson?

We should have drafted Brock Purdy in the 7th round. We could have signed Geno Smith. We could have let Brissett be our starting QB and signed better DL & kept our picks.

https://www.nfl.com/news/nfl-qb-index-ranking-all-68-starting-quarterbacks-from-the-2022-nfl-season
Rank
28
Deshaun Watson
Cleveland Browns · Year 6

The Browns saw little evidence of the player they furnished with a fully guaranteed $230 million. Buried under layers of rust, Watson initially disrupted a Cleveland offense that ranked fourth in DVOA through Week 12 before stumbling to 15th during Watson's six starts. His five touchdowns over the final two weeks of the season were promising, but Watson is under heavy pressure to resemble a top-five passer come September. The Browns gave up too many picks and far too much cash -- alienating a pocket of the fan base along the way -- to field a quarterback who makes us long for the days of Jacoby Brissett.



the reality is no one knows how Watson will pan out. I really hope he kicks butt in 2023 and takes us to the Superbowl. Right now, I would rather have Brisett, our picks, and cap space.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/17/23 05:22 PM
These QB rankings are comical.
Posted By: dawg66 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/17/23 05:39 PM
I say we trade Watson to Carolina for DT Derrick Brown and a couple of 1st round picks and then sign Derek Carr.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/17/23 05:52 PM
Not sure if you are joking or not? Drafting Brock Purdy in the 7th round should have been part of our planning process?
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/17/23 06:02 PM
That's the thing about plans. They're only good plans if they succeed. I don't think the last pick in the draft is a plan. I think that's more of a shot in the dark. But had NFL talent evaluators have actually known how good he would play, drafting him would have been a great plan. There are only successful plans and failed plans. They are based solely on results.
Posted By: ScottPlayersFacemask Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/17/23 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by dawg66
I say we trade Watson to Carolina for DT Derrick Brown and a couple of 1st round picks and then sign Derek Carr.

You aren’t taking into account the cap hit.
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/17/23 10:51 PM
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
These QB rankings are comical.


Which ones are completely out of whack?
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/17/23 10:57 PM
Watson, for sure.
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/17/23 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Not sure if you are joking or not? Drafting Brock Purdy in the 7th round should have been part of our planning process?

I was.
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/17/23 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Watson, for sure.


He's in the top 30 out of 68.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/18/23 03:31 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Watson, for sure.

Based on his play in 2022?
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/18/23 03:38 PM
Two posts and all of this morning's honest discussions come to a close. Time to sign off.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/18/23 04:05 PM
I understand why this bothers you. But that's not the fault of anyone else. The actual headline of the article being discussed.

Quote
NFL QB Index: Ranking all 68 starting quarterbacks from the 2022 NFL season

You said that was completely out of whack. Why is asking you if you base that opinion on his play in 2022 a close to honest discussion? Next I would have asked you why you thought that was out of whack?

That may not be something you want to discuss but that doesn't mean it's not an honest discussion.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/18/23 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by superbowldogg
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
These QB rankings are comical.


Which ones are completely out of whack?

I know people immediately see my comment and think it equates to Watson's position and I think there are some QBs above him that shouldn't be, but Lamar Jackson is ranked WAY TOO HIGH compared to other QBs below him "in 2022". I think Jared Goff and Geno Smith being in the Top 10 is funny. I think Cousins had a fantastic season and should be ranked far higher than 17. Trey Lance ranked over Matt Ryan, Heinicke, and yes, even Baker Mayfield?

As far as Watson is concerned, I'd rank him higher than Pickett, Winston, Dalton, Mariota as a start.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/18/23 06:47 PM
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
Originally Posted by superbowldogg
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
These QB rankings are comical.


Which ones are completely out of whack?

I know people immediately see my comment and think it equates to Watson's position and I think there are some QBs above him that shouldn't be, but Lamar Jackson is ranked WAY TOO HIGH compared to other QBs below him "in 2022". I think Jared Goff and Geno Smith being in the Top 10 is funny. I think Cousins had a fantastic season and should be ranked far higher than 17. Trey Lance ranked over Matt Ryan, Heinicke, and yes, even Baker Mayfield?

As far as Watson is concerned, I'd rank him higher than Pickett, Winston, Dalton, Mariota as a start.

And Joe Burrow and Jalen Hurts ranked higher than Josh Allen just reeks of playoff recency bias to me. Allen should be higher than both of them and I think there is an argument for the #1 spot.
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/18/23 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
I understand why this bothers you. But that's not the fault of anyone else. The actual headline of the article being discussed.

Quote
NFL QB Index: Ranking all 68 starting quarterbacks from the 2022 NFL season

You said that was completely out of whack. Why is asking you if you base that opinion on his play in 2022 a close to honest discussion? Next I would have asked you why you thought that was out of whack?

That may not be something you want to discuss but that doesn't mean it's not an honest discussion.


basically what I just did.
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/18/23 07:16 PM
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
Originally Posted by superbowldogg
Originally Posted by MemphisBrownie
These QB rankings are comical.


Which ones are completely out of whack?

I know people immediately see my comment and think it equates to Watson's position and I think there are some QBs above him that shouldn't be, but Lamar Jackson is ranked WAY TOO HIGH compared to other QBs below him "in 2022". I think Jared Goff and Geno Smith being in the Top 10 is funny. I think Cousins had a fantastic season and should be ranked far higher than 17. Trey Lance ranked over Matt Ryan, Heinicke, and yes, even Baker Mayfield?

As far as Watson is concerned, I'd rank him higher than Pickett, Winston, Dalton, Mariota as a start.

And Joe Burrow and Jalen Hurts ranked higher than Josh Allen just reeks of playoff recency bias to me. Allen should be higher than both of them and I think there is an argument for the #1 spot.

ok that's interesting. I mean... it is always people's opinions. PFF ranked Watson 33 and Allen 3

Geno Smith is ranked 8
Jackson is ranked 14
Dalton is ranked 11
Goff is ranked 16

Pickett is ranked 20
Mariota is ranked 28
Winston isn't ranked
Cousins is ranked 7




https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-nfl-quarterback-rankings-and-tiers#:~:text=2022%20NFL%20quarterback%20rankings%20and,PFF

PFF ranks

Patrick Mahomes
Joe Burrow
Josh Allen
Tua Tagovailoa
Jalen Hurts
Justin Herbert
Kirk Cousins
Geno Smith
Tom Brady
Trevor Lawrence
Andy Dalton
Daniel Jones
Brock Purdy
Lamar Jackson
Ryan Tannehill
Jared Goff
Aaron Rodgers
Dak Prescott
Jacoby Brissett
Kenny Pickett
Jimmy Garoppolo
Sam Darnold
Derek Carr
Kyler Murray
Matthew Stafford
Mac Jones
Russell Wilson
Marcus Mariota
Justin Fields
Davis Mills
Matt Ryan
Taylor Heinicke
Deshaun Watson
Carson Wentz
Desmond Ridder
Baker Mayfield
Zach Wilson
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/18/23 07:24 PM
Originally Posted by ScottPlayersFacemask
Your prediction isn't anything special, shocking, or over the top. There are a just a couple consistent QBs that make the Super Bowl.

Generalization = all this talk about we could've competed with a average/above average QB. Please show me one below (I see just one, Flacco from 10 years ago). Our FO made the trade to give us a "chance" at reaching the playoffs consistently and a chance to reach the big game.

AFC Super Bowl QBs:
2023 - Mahomes
2022 - Burrow
2021 - Mahomes
2020 - Mahomes
2019 - Brady
2018 - Brady
2017 - Brady
2016 - Manning
2015 - Brady
2014 - Manning
2013 - Flacco
2012 - Brady
2011 - Roethlisberger
2010 - Manning
2009 - Roethlisberger
2008 - Brady
2007 - Manning
2006 - Roethlisberger


...I would be shocked if we don't go or win the Super Bowl

I
dang , where was lame r Jackson on that list,
so neither the Titans or the Ravens made the super bowl since 20I4 or before.
...
Man I don't see Deshaun Watson on that list at ALL.
If he doesn't win it "this" year, he never will.
I mean, there are only two times you can win it, THIS time or last time, there is no such thing as "next" time.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/18/23 07:25 PM
While I certainly agree that rankings can vary and not everyone will see it the same, this ranking certainly seems to indicate that when it comes to watson they see him ranked even lower. And it's a source that many people use as the best possible source. At least when it suits their best interest to do so. Not you per say.

Rank QB Weighted Average PFF Analysts Pass Grade/ Snap Overall Grade/ Snap PFF WAR PFF WAR/Snap EPA/Pass

1 Patrick Mahomes 2.26 1.25 3 5 2 2 2
2 Joe Burrow 2.79 1.75 1 3 1 1 8
3 Josh Allen 3.60 3.00 5 1 3 4 5
4 Tua Tagovailoa 6.35 11.00 2 6 9 3 3
5 Jalen Hurts 7.05 4.00 7 4 8 10 10
6 Justin Herbert 9.28 5.50 12 15 6 8 13
7 Kirk Cousins 9.30 10.00 6 11 4 6 17
8 Geno Smith 10.20 9.00 11 12 7 9 14
9 Tom Brady 11.16 8.25 10 19 5 7 20
10 Trevor Lawrence 11.44 7.75 16 14 10 15 11
11 Andy Dalton 11.53 14.50 4 8 11 5 19
12 Daniel Jones 14.16 15.25 19 7 12 14 15
13 Brock Purdy 14.20 17.00 9 17 28 11 1
14 Lamar Jackson 14.20 9.00 17 2 19 18 18
15 Ryan Tannehill 14.49 18.75 8 16 17 12 12
16 Jared Goff 14.79 14.75 18 24 14 20 6
17 Aaron Rodgers 15.78 10.50 15 22 13 17 22
18 Dak Prescott 16.03 16.50 20 18 18 21 7
19 Jacoby Brissett 16.80 17.00 13 10 16 16 24
20 Kenny Pickett 17.83 20.50 14 13 15 13 25
21 Jimmy Garoppolo 19.89 25.75 21 23 25 22 4
22 Sam Darnold 23.93 27.50 23 29 30 29 9
23 Derek Carr 24.19 25.75 27 32 23 27 16
24 Kyler Murray 24.40 22.00 30 20 27 28 21
25 Matthew Stafford 24.91 25.25 22 26 26 19 28
26 Mac Jones 25.04 21.75 24 27 22 23 33
27 Russell Wilson 25.63 28.50 28 25 20 26 26
28 Marcus Mariota 26.91 28.25 29 21 29 30 23
29 Justin Fields 26.91 21.25 34 9 31 34 30
30 Davis Mills 27.94 31.75 26 31 21 24 32
31 Matt Ryan 28.53 31.50 25 28 24 25 34
32 Taylor Heinicke 32.29 28.75 36 35 36 36 27
33 Deshaun Watson 32.50 30.00 32 30 33 32 37
34 Carson Wentz 32.54 34.75 33 34 32 33 29
35 Desmond Ridder 32.68 34.50 31 33 34 31 31
36 Baker Mayfield 34.91 34.25 35 36 35 35 35
37 Zach Wilson 36.61 36.25 37 37 37 37 36

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-2022-nfl-quarterback-rankings-and-tiers

At least that's how PFF sees it.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/18/23 07:58 PM
Cousins was 17 in the rankings and PFF has him 7.
Goff was 8, PFF has him 16.
I didn't even bring Fields up but thought to. The rankings have him 13, PFF 29. Trey Lance isn't even on the PPF list, but probably due to snaps.

As I mentioned, and your reply seems to prove it, I think the rankings are comical for other reasons outside of just a Watson ranking but people will think this way regardless.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/18/23 10:20 PM
Quote
NFL QB Index: Ranking all 68 starting quarterbacks from the 2022 NFL season

My mistake. I thought the rankings were projections for 2023.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/19/23 03:43 PM
No problem. I thought that might be the case.
Posted By: GratefulDawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/19/23 07:43 PM
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/19/23 07:48 PM
Kudos to the Browns for recognizing they needed a big-time QB who could compete w/Burrow and Lamar in their own division and some other excellent qbs in the conference.
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/19/23 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Kudos to the Browns for recognizing they needed a big-time QB who could compete w/Burrow and Lamar in their own division and some other excellent qbs in the conference.

Lamar will be out of the league in 3-4 years with a blown knee or destroyed ankle and the Steelers will probably have to draft another QB in 2.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/19/23 07:58 PM
Hopefully he can still compete with them. We certainly haven't seen that yet.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/19/23 08:50 PM
I am glad that you posted that.

It is a perspective to keep in mind as to who DW is.

For those who wish to buy into his last six games; IMO that was nothing more than a snapshot from a distorted season.

The Browns took a risk and I for one am glad they did.

I do not think it needs to be stated DW has to perform at a elite level. The risk was taken based upon his previous performance.

IMO DW gives a chance that we were distant from before the trade.

I fully expect him to play at the level he has played when he had a full off season to prepare.

It is still a 53 man roster and the team has to improve in other area in order to fulfill their goals.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/19/23 11:31 PM
Agreed. If we still had Baker we wouldn't have much of a chance in 2023 not with all the elite QB's in our conference.
Posted By: Frenchy Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by ScottPlayersFacemask
Originally Posted by dawg66
I say we trade Watson to Carolina for DT Derrick Brown and a couple of 1st round picks and then sign Derek Carr.

You aren’t taking into account the cap hit.

Out of curiosity what would the hit be? Would that be doable at all?
Posted By: YTownBrownsFan Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by Frenchy
Originally Posted by ScottPlayersFacemask
Originally Posted by dawg66
I say we trade Watson to Carolina for DT Derrick Brown and a couple of 1st round picks and then sign Derek Carr.

You aren’t taking into account the cap hit.

Out of curiosity what would the hit be? Would that be doable at all?

Watson is fairly untradeable at this point. Since his contract is 100% guaranteed, the other team would have to take on that entire remaining guarantee at the time of the trade.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 03:48 AM
Well who wouldn't want to do that.
I don't think they are dumb enough, or whatever kind of way enough, to go from Watson to Derek Carr and a pick and a DT hope after 6 games and a partridge in a pair tree, but, I've underestimated them before.

What a fitting line of dialog for the @uarterback Carousel thread.
Posted By: jacksondawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 09:11 AM
Watson
3.5 wins per year the last 2 years combined.
79.1 qbr in a Browns uniform
0 wins against Burrows
0 wins against Lamar.
Franchise qb
Posted By: steve0255 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 11:02 AM
Originally Posted by Frenchy
Originally Posted by ScottPlayersFacemask
Originally Posted by dawg66
I say we trade Watson to Carolina for DT Derrick Brown and a couple of 1st round picks and then sign Derek Carr.

You aren’t taking into account the cap hit.

Out of curiosity what would the hit be? Would that be doable at all?

Purely a fantasy but I'll play. The Browns would trade out of the 184M guarantee that remains on Watson's contract which would be Carolina's responsibility going forward (46M per year).

The Browns would still be accountable for the year 1 salary they moved to prorate bonus and would take an immediate $35,972,000 cap hit for 2023 for the remaining prorated bonus. That would actually free up $19,021,000 in cap space from what the Browns were going to be charged.

Net - $19,021,000 gain in 2023 cap space.

Derrick Brown is in the final year of his rookie contract which is guaranteed in 2023. The Browns would pick up Derrick Brown's cap cost of $3,831,100 and the Panters would still be responsible for Derrick Brown's prorated bonus that sits at $3,684,801. Of course, the Browns would be responsible for inking Derrick Brown to a new deal starting in 2024.

Net - $15,189,900 left in 2023 cap gain.

Carr is a free agent so who knows how low/or high his deal will be, but Spotrac has listed his Market Value as 3-years, $113,379,519 for an Avg. Salary: $37,793,173 per season. That's $8,206,827 per season less than Watson's base salary deal.

Net - ($22,603,273) loss in cap liability for 2023 after the moves to this point and still getting the two first round draft picks. Prorating base salaries into bonuses could lower this initial hit but not considered at this point.

Based on current contracts and the above moves and nothing else, the Browns new cap liabilities would put them ($36,018,825) in the hole for 2023 requiring some major restructures to get under the cap limit before the March 15th deadline for Free agency and the draft.

If the Browns would restructure Carr just like they did Watson in year-1, the net team cap liability for 2023 would be ($8,386,634) while getting Carr, Derrick Brown, 2 first round picks (4-players) versus keeping Watson and the teams current cap liability for 2023 of ($13,415,552) before any other moves/restructures.

Of course, this is all fantasy and has zero chance of happening but interesting none the less.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 12:07 PM
Do you know how to open the draft thread or post to it?

Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 01:20 PM
Can we please give DW an off season learning our playbook, working with our receivers and especially working with Kevin S. before we start to make negative judgements about him. Let's give him a fair shot.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 01:24 PM
j/c:

There is no way in the world the Browns want to trade Watson, yet people are playing along. Then, a guy says Watson will be out of the league and not one person disputed that.

Again, this place is an alternative universe.
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
j/c:

There is no way in the world the Browns want to trade Watson, yet people are playing along. Then, a guy says Watson will be out of the league and not one person disputed that.

Again, this place is an alternative universe.


I said Lamar will be out of the league not Watson. Is that what you are referencing?
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 03:24 PM
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Can we please give DW an off season learning our playbook, working with our receivers and especially working with Kevin S. before we start to make negative judgements about him. Let's give him a fair shot.

Ummm, he just had one of those in 2022.
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
j/c:

There is no way in the world the Browns want to trade Watson,

Agreed. There is absolutely ZERO chance of it happening. It is beyond unreasonable to even consider. I think anyone suggesting it is just stirring the pot.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Can we please give DW an off season learning our playbook, working with our receivers and especially working with Kevin S. before we start to make negative judgements about him. Let's give him a fair shot.

Or positive judgement on him. Let's give it a fair shot.
Posted By: dawg66 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 04:28 PM
I don't see it happening either, I just threw it out there because 1: It gets us out of possible cap heck 2: Carolina was one of the teams supposedly interested in Watson and Derrick Brown would fill a huge need for us at DT. 3: We would still have a really good QB if we could sign Carr. and 4: we would possibly have 2 1st rnd picks to help strengthen the team.
Posted By: BADdog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 04:38 PM
So our QB coach is gone.. does that help or hurt?
Posted By: PrplPplEater Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by BADdog
So our QB coach is gone.. does that help or hurt?

Probably a non-factor.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/20/23 04:57 PM
That depends on how the situation is handled. The timing of it is as good as it gets though. The new league year doesn't begin until March 15th so the Browns do have time before they have to make that call and whoever they hire will have the entire off season to work with watson. A name I've seen surfaced as a possible replacement is James Urban who is in his fifth season with the Ravens as quarterbacks coach. He and Stefanski are long time friends. Here is one such article....

A Potential Replacement For Drew Petzing on Browns Staff

https://www.si.com/nfl/browns/news/a-potential-replacement-for-drew-petzing-on-browns-staff
Posted By: Damanshot Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/21/23 12:13 AM
Originally Posted by BADdog
So our QB coach is gone.. does that help or hurt?

Depends on who gets that job on the staff. Get the right person and we could very well be off to the races. I don't know who that would be by the way.
Posted By: Milk Man Re: The Watson Trade continued - 02/21/23 03:28 AM
Originally Posted by PrplPplEater
Originally Posted by BADdog
So our QB coach is gone.. does that help or hurt?

Probably a non-factor.

I agree. Petzing was the TE coach for two years and had one year as the Browns QB coach. Could see the Browns promoting from within to the QB coach job. T.C. McCartney (current TE coach) was a previous QB coach with Denver and a QB himself at LSU (basically acted as a coach, did not see the field).

Zac Jackson was on with local Arizona sports radio discussing Petzing...

https://arizonasports.com/story/350...rray-meet-cardinals-new-oc-drew-petzing/
Posted By: jacksondawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/25/23 02:53 PM
Where done
New York beat us they got
Aaron Rodgers
Hardeman
Plus two firsts 2 seconds
Berry has run this team out of playoff contention.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/25/23 03:08 PM
They swapped firsts.

Conditional second in 2024 if he plays then it converts to a one.

How did the Russell Wilson work out?

How about Trey Lance?

How about we wait and see what happens before we say that we are out of playoff contention?

I do not think that you or anyone else knows how we will play.
Posted By: jacksondawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/25/23 05:12 PM
3.5 wins average over the last 2 years.
Now we face a 250 million salary over 4 years.
Your right I do not know how he will perform this year.
How come you did not bring up that over hid last 2 years in Cleveland Mayfield average qb rating was higher plus he averaged 9.5 wins with the same team same coach?
Please answer the question
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/25/23 05:32 PM
"3.5 wins average over the last 2 years."

2021 Browns record was 8-9.
2022 Browns record was 7-10.

"How come you did not bring up that over hid last 2 years in Cleveland Mayfield average qb rating was higher plus he averaged 9.5 wins with the same team same coach?"

I do not understand your question?
Posted By: jacksondawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/25/23 05:48 PM
Mayfield 2020 11 wins
Mayfield 2021 8 wins
11 plus 8 Equals 19 divided by 2 Equals 9.5 wins
Browns last year 7 wins a 3 game drop under leshaun.
Plus no draft picks this year.
Jaylene Hurst called leshaun out
Al michaels called out the Browns
Burrows called out the Browns
Rather have those three then Mkc
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/25/23 07:32 PM
DW played six games. He was 3 and 3. ?

We have 8 draft picks.

The rest? I don't know what you are talking about.

What is your point? BM is better than DW?

I don't think so.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/26/23 12:04 AM
Originally Posted by bonefish


What is your point? BM is better than DW?

I don't think so.


At this point, this is what I expect the outcome to be.
Posted By: Damanshot Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/26/23 06:31 PM
Originally Posted by Homewood Dog
Agreed. If we still had Baker we wouldn't have much of a chance in 2023 not with all the elite QB's in our conference.

Not for nothing, but has a Burrows led Bengals team ever beat a Baker led Browns team? I know, beating a dead horse.. But it's a thing..

I think, that if Watson returns to form, we have enough weapons to win it all. IF!
Posted By: jacksondawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/26/23 06:52 PM
How come you guys did not bring up leshauns playoff record
And all time worse stats?
No need to answer you can't teach a dog calculus
Posted By: PastorMarc Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/26/23 07:22 PM
Originally Posted by Damanshot
I think, that if Watson returns to form, we have enough weapons to win it all. IF!

Agreed "IF" thumbsup
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/26/23 07:35 PM
It may be worth your time to research his entire career numbers and look at advanced metrics.

I don't what your problem is?

Why do you feel it necessary to try insulting people?

I don't recall anyone insulting you. But if you wish to continue it would serve you well to at least have a knowledge base and come with some facts.

Your crystal ball predictions have little substance.
Posted By: jacksondawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/26/23 08:47 PM
You may want to look at him when he plays against
Lamar
Allen
Mahomes
Wilson.
Predictions nobody in are fantasy league drafted him.
Enough said
Like I said you cannot teach a dog Calculus
Have a nice day really wish you could talk football
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/26/23 08:52 PM
"Predictions nobody in are(the word our)(in case you need help) fantasy league drafted him."


Well nothing beats science. Your fantasy league I am sure is all knowing.
Posted By: jacksondawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/26/23 09:02 PM
They called 79 rating on Deshaun so did I
The Browns and leshaun last place for 2 years no predictions fact.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/26/23 09:15 PM
Here is the definition of the word fact:

"a thing that is known or proved to be true"

How does your prediction measure up?
Posted By: jacksondawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/27/23 01:38 AM
To be honest the reason they will not win
Hooper called them out
Hurst called out Watson
The case rests.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/27/23 05:46 PM
Darn you sure got me there.

Your case rests. You have made a name for yourself.

Shame on me for any doubts.
Posted By: FORTBROWNFAN Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/27/23 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by jacksondawg
To be honest the reason they will not win
Hooper called them out
Hurst called out Watson
The case rests.



I would have sworn I heard the Perry Mason theme song playing while I was reading this.
Posted By: FATE Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/27/23 08:08 PM
Originally Posted by FORTBROWNFAN
Originally Posted by jacksondawg
To be honest the reason they will not win
Hooper called them out
Hurst called out Watson
The case rests.


I would have sworn I heard the Perry Mason theme song playing while I was reading this.

I thought it was a dyslexic Haiku with the lines mixed up.
Posted By: jacksondawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/28/23 03:49 PM
Nice
But Jordan Davis
Ojabo
George Pickens wr
Round 1 2023 Jason Smith njiba wr osu
Say everything you want but I will be happy to play next years browns
By the way this dyslexic did not like 6 high draft picks for a 79 rating qb.
Thank you have a good day
Trivia question who gets fired first Berry or Stefanski
Posted By: PerfectSpiral Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/28/23 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by jacksondawg
Watson
3.5 wins per year the last 2 years combined.
79.1 qbr in a Browns uniform
0 wins against Burrows
0 wins against Lamar.
Franchise qb

I’m wondering these days how negative fan reaction towards Brownie QB’s has effected all of their statistics.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/28/23 05:55 PM
j/c:

Background:

I think the Browns had to trade for Watson. As bonefish said in the Lamar thread, the Browns were stuck w/Baker Mayfield and needed an upgrade. I'll add that the team's roster was built to win now and that Baker was in line for a new contract or at least an extension. The QB draft class was terrible. There were a ton of young and stud QBs in their conference, including two in their own division. Multiple teams wanted Watson once the Grand Jury did not indict him. The Browns were desperate and offered the guaranteed contract. The salary cap hell thing is nonsense. Teams have figured out how to work around it. Not sure why our fans are upset about the Haslam's guaranteeing the contract? It doesn't affect the fans at all. I also don't buy that he is going to leave as soon as his contract is up.


A couple of items:

--Watson was a top tier qb before he sat out a year. Again, it was no accident that so many teams wanted him.

--Watson played awful last year. No denying that.

Moving forward:

It's imperative that Watson returns to his elite self for the team to even have a chance. The AFC is loaded w/excellent qbs and teams. I think the Browns could easily make the playoffs in the NFC. However, very few folks talk about the Browns as a legit SB contender in their conference. I don't know if Watson will once again play like an elite qb. I think it's plausible. I do not think he will play as poorly as last year.

I wonder if it will be enough even if he does once again play elite football? The conference is stacked and I still have questions about our receivers and defense. I think it's important for the Browns to make the playoffs in regards to Berry and Stefanski retaining their jobs. I think firing them would be yet another huge mistake because of how we will have to rework the roster. I've seen that movie too many times.

Conclusion:


I believe the Browns made the right move in acquiring Watson. We had no chance w/out him. We now have a chance, but again, the competition in the AFC is fierce. I think a lot of the local media and a substantial percentage of the fan base have been looking for ways to attack the current regime and that spite will only grow larger if the team does not make the playoffs this year. Hell, making the playoffs will still not be enough for some of them. It's a volatile situation.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/28/23 06:00 PM
It is a volatile situation. As much about the player involved as anything else. And rightfully so.
Posted By: jacksondawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/28/23 09:01 PM
I see a 79 quarterback rating.
Did he pile up numbers throwing to DeAndre Hopkins in his prime yes.
Question if Mayfield put up those numbers at 18 million how many of you would support him?
Question 2 how many qb making 60 million have put a 79 rating?
Posted By: GMdawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/28/23 10:13 PM
Originally Posted by jacksondawg
Nice
But Jordan Davis
Ojabo
George Pickens wr
Round 1 2023 Jason Smith njiba wr osu
Say everything you want but I will be happy to play next years browns
By the way this dyslexic did not like 6 high draft picks for a 79 rating qb.
Thank you have a good day
Trivia question who gets fired first Berry or Stefanski
Guess who?

IT was a Jackson.
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/29/23 12:42 PM
j/c

A fact consistently left out of the Watson acquisition discussion is what the Browns "may" have done with the bounty of picks given up and the $$$ allocated to one guy / one position. Tab references that quite a bit. It's integral to the discussion, but usually left out for some reason.

Watson is an upgrade over BM (or shall I say should-be)...no one denies that. But to be fair, in BM's last healthy year here...he was the QB of a team that made the playoffs...won a playoff game...and was arguably one Chad Henne, last-minute jailbreak away from going to the AFC Championship game. Not bad for a guy often-described on here as not being able to "take us to the Super Bowl". And that with a usually, sure-handed, possession WR as his #1 and a guy who has been a flake his entire career at #2 and a TE who looked like a fainting goat as soon as he caught the ball.

The move to get Watson was quite ballsy. All the chips were shoved in the middle. Time will tell if it was "worth" it.
Posted By: jacksondawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/30/23 03:14 PM
It is going to be interesting But probably we are going to crippled for
A long time.
Teams that started out 5 games in front had better drafts then we did
Zay flowers is going to absolutely torch emerson that will mean we will have to keep safeties
Over the top hence they will run all over us.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/30/23 03:27 PM
I think any evaluation of the Watson trade starts with what else we could have had with the picks and $$$ - that SHOULD be defacto. The better and more elite Watson plays the less it may matter (especially to some) because QB is the hardest position to fill with an elite player. But bottom line is results and how far or otherwise we go in the playoffs. Watson being better than Baker is not a metric that really matters .... Browns and KS could easily have moved on from BM and not gone the Watson route.
Posted By: bugs Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/30/23 05:56 PM
I continue to watch the Indianapolis Colts. They struggle to get a franchise QB. Their position in the draft takes them out of play for a top-tier QB.

Indianapolis makes a strong statement about how a middle-tier QB handicaps a franchise.

Going forward I would say they are a team to compare against as far as success.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 04/30/23 09:11 PM
I like to compare the Browns record head to head against
their division,
Baltimore, Pittsburgh, and Cincinnati, along with
the Rams,
The Titans,
the Jaguars and
the Texans as a superdivision measure of success, because of history.

there was once a Cleveland rams name,
there was once a Houston city div. opponent
there was once the titans and jaguars franchises in your division.
Posted By: jaybird Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/01/23 03:13 AM
This is the year to judge Watson.... last year he was getting his feet back under him... this year, if he fails, then we can officially saw we're doomed.... I think he comes out guns blazing! I am hoping he has a very good year... gets us back to the playoffs.... and does some damage....

if not... then I'm guessing out FO has some major changes...
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/01/23 02:03 PM
Originally Posted by bugs
I continue to watch the Indianapolis Colts. They struggle to get a franchise QB. Their position in the draft takes them out of play for a top-tier QB.

Indianapolis makes a strong statement about how a middle-tier QB handicaps a franchise.

Going forward I would say they are a team to compare against as far as success.

I just saw that the Colts plan to start their Rookie QB who has 13 collegiate starts ... thinking they won't be a good team to measure the Browns against. Have to agree that the teams to measure the Browns against are the other teams in the AFC North.

Also wholeheartedly agree that the year to judge Watson on is this year. His performances in Houston do not matter. His performance last year does not matter. That could probably be said for any player anywhere - but it's especially true for Watson for a myriad of reasons. I'm hopeful but the bar is high.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/03/23 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by jacksondawg
I see a 79 quarterback rating.
Did he pile up numbers throwing to DeAndre Hopkins in his prime yes.
Question if Mayfield put up those numbers at 18 million how many of you would support him?
Question 2 how many qb making 60 million have put a 79 rating?
It's not just a year to get a referendum on Watson,
it's also a year to get a referendum on the offensive coaching, the head coaching, and the gameday coaching as the game unfolds.

And factored in to a @uarterbacks rating is another team on the field every week doing their best to make your team look bad.

No other team faces the Browns road through the AFC North every year, it is uni@uely their own 3 division opponents.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/03/23 12:36 AM
Which is easier to replace without rebuilding?
so Neither, for now.
Posted By: jacksondawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/03/23 01:55 AM
Nice excellent pist
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/03/23 10:09 AM
Originally Posted by mgh888
Originally Posted by bugs
I continue to watch the Indianapolis Colts. They struggle to get a franchise QB. Their position in the draft takes them out of play for a top-tier QB.

Indianapolis makes a strong statement about how a middle-tier QB handicaps a franchise.

Going forward I would say they are a team to compare against as far as success.

I just saw that the Colts plan to start their Rookie QB who has 13 collegiate starts ... thinking they won't be a good team to measure the Browns against. Have to agree that the teams to measure the Browns against are the other teams in the AFC North.

Also wholeheartedly agree that the year to judge Watson on is this year. His performances in Houston do not matter. His performance last year does not matter. That could probably be said for any player anywhere - but it's especially true for Watson for a myriad of reasons. I'm hopeful but the bar is high.


No doubt the measurement starts this season. I am not saying you are, but I worry about people saying the bar is high. I often wonder what that means, but it means different things to different people. For some it will always be higher than he achieves.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/03/23 12:32 PM
Let's hope DW regains his form of a few years ago. I think he will or at least come close to it. Either way it will be better than what we had in Baker. The trade had to be made. If DW flops, heaven forbid, we're in trouble and we have him at a high salary for 3 more years. We did draft a QB that has potential that could be developed. We drafted him to be a #2 but maybe for some insurance too? Time will tell.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/03/23 12:46 PM
Part of me feels we need to get to and go a round or two in the play offs as a minimum - that's based on what we have given up for DW and how much we are paying him, and given that a healthy Browns teams did reasonably well in the play offs 2 years before acquiring DW. But there are so many variables and so many changes to our team to other teams that don't stand still from a a talent perspective ... I'm hoping we play well enough to be in contention to reach the playoffs. I think the low side of the bar is set to say we must be competing to make the play offs each of the next two years. I think if we miss the play offs - and/or if Watson is merely a top 15 QB - we'd see a lot of pressure on KS and Berry. And probably rightfully so although the idea of starting over is probably painful for anyone/everyone. KS as a play caller is also going to have a huge impact. I believe he needs to improve, others believe he is a great OC - we'll see. On D I have considerable faith that Schwartz is going to make them competent if not damn good. If we aren't a top 10 defense I'll be mildly surprised. But it's May ... lots can change and happen.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/03/23 01:50 PM
It is understandable why people feel uncertain about DW returning to his standard of playing.

Last impressions leave deep marks.

I can only speak for myself. There was so many factors at play in his return to play the last six games that to me the results were predictable.

The word momentum comes to mind. You watch a game. The game seems to be one sided. Then something happens and the team losing finds a groove. The offense falls into a rhythm. The game changes and the team that was losing takes over and wins.

Last season could not have been more abnormal. DW comes to a new team. A completely different environment with new teammates and coaches. However, he doesn't come to the team like Russell Wilson did. He comes to the new team with a dark cloud over his head. He is publically being being humiliated. He is under trial and has no idea if he will play or be suspended for the season. All of this is being played out while OTA's and training camp is unfolding. Then the suspension comes and he is gone from the team for 11 weeks. Add that he has not played a down in almost two years.

This is all like reverse momentum. If we had been realistic and really looked at this in totality. What did we expect? That after 11 games played with a different quarterback that DW would just get back on his horse and win six games? Really?

A normal season is you are on a team. You know the players and coaches. You know the system. You know the playbook. You practice in OTA's. You practice more in training camp. You get all the first team reps. You have played with these players before. You have built a bank of chemistry through repetition.

Did DW have your normal typical preparation for last season?

History. Look at the career of DW. Every year that he has played football under normal circumstances starting from college. What were the results?

All you have to do is look it up. You can go back and watch every game. All 53 in the NFL and all the games he played in college.

After doing that how do they compare to the last six games?

My expectations are simple really. I base my expectations on his career and discount the last six games because of the circumstances surrounding those games.
Posted By: mac Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/03/23 03:26 PM
My expectations = the Browns competing in the 2023/2024 playoffs after the regular season...

Hopefully the entire franchise is on the same page when it comes to the expectation for the Cleveland Browns this upcoming season...
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/03/23 03:34 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
No doubt the measurement starts this season. I am not saying you are, but I worry about people saying the bar is high. I often wonder what that means, but it means different things to different people. For some it will always be higher than he achieves.

I would think for most people in the business world it would mean average or above average return on your investment. Considering the number on the guaranteed contract and all of the draft capital investment given that return on investment would set that bar pretty high.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/03/23 04:19 PM
I think the expectations of fans on a message board have little to do w/reality. I think that the Browns have their own expectations and I hope they meet them.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/03/23 04:21 PM
I think it would be safe to say that the businessman, Haslam, expects a good return on his investment.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/04/23 01:21 AM
Originally Posted by jacksondawg
You may want to look at him when he plays against
Lamar
Allen
Mahomes
Wilson.
Predictions nobody in are fantasy league drafted him.
Enough said
Like I said you cannot teach a dog Calculus
Have a nice day really wish you could talk football

Poor form bro. You can’t teach a dawg calculus. Fixed it for ya!
Posted By: jacksondawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/05/23 04:27 PM
Still have not answered 1 question poor form
Posted By: jaybird Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 03:59 AM
we need to win at least one playoff game this year..... anything less is failure...
Posted By: BADdog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 05:10 AM
Originally Posted by jaybird
we need to win at least one playoff game this year..... anything less is failure...

+1
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 05:56 AM
Originally Posted by jaybird
we need to win at least one playoff game this year..... anything less is failure...
Playoffs or BUST is how I feel. If they fail that this year, I think I’ll be done with them. Yes, I dislike the DW move that much. If it doesn’t pay off, I’m moving on. I think 50 years of being let down has finally taken it’s toll. I’ve almost lost all interest. And I damn sure don’t feel fanatical about them.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 10:22 AM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Originally Posted by jaybird
we need to win at least one playoff game this year..... anything less is failure...
Playoffs or BUST is how I feel. If they fail that this year, I think I’ll be done with them. Yes, I dislike the DW move that much. If it doesn’t pay off, I’m moving on. I think 50 years of being let down has finally taken it’s toll. I’ve almost lost all interest. And I damn sure don’t feel fanatical about them.

I will always be a fan, but I am near the end of the rope on holding season tickets.

It irritated me the team raised ticket prices this year after last year performance. I think I have figured out the reason they have the odd number of games, every other year it gives owners an excuse to raise prices, claiming the extra home game.

I won't make playoffs the deciding factor, but the team winning games will be a deciding factor. I don't know exactly how many wins that is going to take, but it is more than we have been winning. I'll just have to see how that plays out.

Another factor is if we keep or fire the staff. If we have to make changes, we have been "building" the entire 16 years i have had these tickets. I am not going to shell out $4400 for season tickets for that any longer. I'll just grab a few games off stubbhub or somewhere and come out WAY ahead. Heck, I no longer get up to all the games anyway.
Posted By: bonefish Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 10:43 AM
Going through 1-31 was brutal.

A winning season and being in the hunt till the season's end will hold my interest.

I don't enjoy going to events anymore. I don't go to concerts or games. I would love to be able to go to small jazz clubs and hear really good good music in a small place. But that does not exist anymore to my knowledge.

Seats for anything are really expensive but it is more than that. I still love watching the Braves. But unless I was able to get primo seats with a parking pass. Not interested.

The Browns are still my team. I still get excited to see the uniformes on the field. I know I would get jacked if we won the division and made a run to the Super Bowl. If we do ever get into the Super Bowl. We would have to win. Losing in the Super Bowl would be horrible. After waiting all this time. Losing the Super Bowl would be crushing. It's not like you get many shots and my time is moving quickly.

I think we have a competitive team but you never know till you play.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 10:51 AM
No one forces a person to watch, nevermind root for, a NFL team. It's free will. It's not like being born into slavery or as an indentured servant. Personally, I hope a few of these posters do move on from the Browns so we don't have to read their garbage anymore.
Posted By: WSU Willie Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 11:33 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
No one forces a person to watch, nevermind root for, a NFL team. It's free will. It's not like being born into slavery or as an indentured servant. Personally, I hope a few of these posters do move on from the Browns so we don't have to read their garbage anymore.

No one forces a person to go to a website...open a forum...or read a post. It's free will.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 11:42 AM
Right. No one is forcing you to read my posts.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Right. No one is forcing you to read my posts.

Are you telling yourself that no-one is forcing you to read other poster's posts and you are in agreement with WSU? You just repeated WSU and seem to be agreeing with him that reading a post is free will.... this after you just wrote a post complaining about reading "garbage posts" .... ?
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 01:26 PM
We are veering off bit, but I agree with Vers

Some people aren't fans of the team and are here simply to troll.

I don't mind critical opinions. I have had plenty over the years, but I don't think anybody thought I was simply a troll to talk smack.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 01:37 PM
IO think Jackson is a a troll or simply a Baker fan - he even talked about "your team" in a response to me. Clearly that implies he's not a fan of the Browns. Since then I have ignored him - it's not hard.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 03:54 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Personally, I hope a few of these posters do move on from the Browns so we don't have to read their garbage anymore.

You're certainly included in that group. It was so peaceful and non confrontational while you were on vacation. And now, as seen by this post of yours, the ugliness has returned.
Posted By: jfanent Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Personally, I hope a few of these posters do move on from the Browns so we don't have to read their garbage anymore.

You're certainly included in that group. It was so peaceful and non confrontational while you were on vacation. And now, as seen by this post of yours, the ugliness has returned.

I guess the the arguments you were in didn't count?
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 04:05 PM
What are you talking about? Or do you claim every debate is an argument like the one you're trying to start here now?
Posted By: mac Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 04:18 PM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Personally, I hope a few of these posters do move on from the Browns so we don't have to read their garbage anymore.

You're certainly included in that group. It was so peaceful and non confrontational while you were on vacation. And now, as seen by this post of yours, the ugliness has returned.


jc...

All opinions are "welcomed"...imo.

Don't want discuss a particular subject ..DON'T.

Don't want to read a particular post...DON'T.

But trying to label others because they have an opinion that might differ from your own opinion...THAT'S BS.

All opinions are "welcomed"...

Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 05:43 PM
They are Baker fans. Pure and simple. Still fighting in a war that actually ended a year ago.

Regarding your situation. I can understand why you are thinking about getting rid of your season tickets. It's a long drive. I went back to Ohio recently and I am to the point where I did not enjoy the drive at all. The West Virginia Turnpike is not fun for older folks like ourselves.

I got rid of my season tix awhile ago. I did so when we were obviously tanking. I decided I wasn't going to pay money to a team that wasn't trying to win and making the trip was kind of a hassle because I was still teaching at that time. I'd either have to take a day off work or end up feeling like crap on Monday morning. Neither was desirable.

I just get a kick out of all these ultimatums and proclamations that fans who don't even attend the games make. What the hell are they going to do if the Browns don't make the playoffs? How will any of it hurt Haslam? Big, bold, tough talk that is filled w/more air than a hot air balloon.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 06:02 PM
It's odd how you lie and throw out the first punch while claiming others are the problem when your nose gets bloodied. It's a pattern. I'll pray for you.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 06:41 PM
Quote
It was so peaceful and non confrontational while you were on vacation. And now, as seen by this post of yours, the ugliness has returned.

Oh, the irony.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: The Watson Trade continued - 05/06/23 06:52 PM
So what is inacurate about how things were in The Pure Football forum while he was gone? I mean the one liners are cute and all, but.....
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