DawgTalkers.net
Posted By: Milk Man Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/15/23 10:52 PM
Browns get their safety.

I like this signing.

Posted By: Milk Man Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/15/23 10:54 PM
Jake spoke it into existence.

Posted By: FL_Dawg Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/15/23 10:56 PM
That's great news ... Ty!
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/15/23 10:56 PM
It made sense on a lot of fronts. Glad to see it come to fruition.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/15/23 10:59 PM
I just posted in another thread about getting a FS. I think Thornhill is good in coverage, which is a plus. I also think he misses a lot of tackles and fails to bring down guys in the open field. Not the words I want to hear about your last line of defense. He is not one of the guys I wanted, but I've been wrong before. At least we signed one. The draft didn't seem to have any true FSs who could make a difference.
Posted By: PastorMarc Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/15/23 11:01 PM
With every FA signing this defense gets better and better ...

The Browns are adding a two-time champion to their secondary. According to NFL Network’s Tom Pelissero (via Twitter), Cleveland is signing safety Juan Thornhill.

The defensive back is signing a three-year deal worth $21MM, including $14MM in guaranteed money that will be paid out in the first two years of the contract.

The former second-round pick spent the first four seasons of his career in Kansas City, starting 52 of his 65 games. This included a rookie campaign where he earned PFWA All-Rookie Team honors after starting all 16 games for the Chiefs.

This past season, Thornhill started all 16 of his appearances, finishing the year with 71 tackles, nine passes defended, and three interceptions. The 27-year-old started another three playoff games en route to a Super Bowl championship, compiling another 13 tackles and three passes defended.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/15/23 11:04 PM
He's a good improvement over what we've had. Good signing!
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/15/23 11:21 PM
Posted By: Pdawg Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/15/23 11:27 PM


Not sure if true but I hope it is.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/15/23 11:58 PM
Nobody can say the FO isn't trying to improve the roster.

All of these guys may flop, BUT RIGHT NOW, they are making good moves.
Posted By: FL_Dawg Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/16/23 12:30 AM
The Bengals fans are bummed.
Posted By: Rottweiller Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/16/23 02:31 AM
Rock solid. Probably the best athlete we have had back there in quite some time. I hope we draft a guy for development because I believe that the safety position in this years draft is very underrated. Both kids from Illinois, Robinson from Fla St and Johnson from Iowa St are IMO very good pro prospects. Good job Mr Berry.
Posted By: jaybird Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/16/23 02:34 AM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Nobody can say the FO isn't trying to improve the roster.

All of these guys may flop, BUT RIGHT NOW, they are making good moves.


Going heavy defense so far....
Posted By: DaveyD Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/16/23 02:43 AM
We really need WR help.
Posted By: tru_dawgs Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/16/23 02:47 AM
I really like this signing, I loved Thornhill a few years ago (draft wise) and he definitely adds to our secondary, now we can draft another safety...and let him learn, instead of forcing to play him. Gives us a lot more flexibility. Was hoping for Thornhill or Love, glad we got one of them.
Posted By: tru_dawgs Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/16/23 03:12 AM
Originally Posted by Rottweiller
Rock solid. Probably the best athlete we have had back there in quite some time. I hope we draft a guy for development because I believe that the safety position in this years draft is very underrated. Both kids from Illinois, Robinson from Fla St and Johnson from Iowa St are IMO very good pro prospects. Good job Mr Berry.

I love Jartavius Martin from Illinois, superb at safety and sliding into the slot (very well could be on the radar for the Browns, 3rd safety role and nickel duties...Delpit will be a FA soon too) Jammie Robinson is really nice as well,
Posted By: Milk Man Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/16/23 05:08 AM
Originally Posted by Pdawg


Not sure if true but I hope it is.

'More For You Cleveland' is the local Dov Kleiman. An aggregator.

Juan Thornhill's Coverage Grades per PFF (side note, I'm really happy with this signing)

2019: 78.0

2020: 55.5

2021: 68.6

2022: 68.7
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/16/23 10:39 AM
Originally Posted by jaybird
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Nobody can say the FO isn't trying to improve the roster.

All of these guys may flop, BUT RIGHT NOW, they are making good moves.


Going heavy defense so far....

As they should. It was very predictable.

The D has been a big problem. Jobs are on the line. I don't think we wanted to go in to the season counting on rookies being the difference on D. I think we still sign another D lineman and a receiver. Both being in that middling range. We may not sign them for a week or three, more after the feeding frenzy settles down.

Then in the draft we can just look to draft the best players possible who might be able to augment what we currently have. As an example, I don't think it is all that hard to find a rookie receiver who can step in, have a fairly limited route tree to master and add some spice to the O. The same can be said for other positions.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/16/23 10:52 AM
Component player who played for KC and won a SB.

Guys who have that experience know what going all the way means and what it takes.

So, I am glad we signed him. I am sure Schwartz had a say in it as well.
Posted By: MemphisBrownie Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/16/23 04:36 PM
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/19/23 05:51 PM
If Juan Thornhill is in and JJ3 is out, is Juan Thornhill going to wear the ear piece?

Because when A Walk, Anthony Walker, wore the ear piece nobody knew who to cover and blame was assigned or neglected to be assigned b/c the coverage message was sent but not received until it became necessary to have JJ3 wear the earpiece. Now JJ3 is gone who is going to wear the earpiece?
Posted By: superbowldogg Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/19/23 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by THROW LONG
If Juan Thornhill is in and JJ3 is out, is Juan Thornhill going to wear the ear piece?

Because when A Walk, Anthony Walker, wore the ear piece nobody knew who to cover and blame was assigned or neglected to be assigned b/c the coverage message was sent but not received until it became necessary to have JJ3 wear the earpiece. Now JJ3 is gone who is going to wear the earpiece?


they will have 6 months to figure it out.
Posted By: mac Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/19/23 06:03 PM
Gonna have to wait on Jim Schwartz to decide who wears an ear piece... thumbsup
Posted By: mgh888 Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/19/23 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Milk Man
Browns get their safety.

I like this signing.


Great news on the face of it. All our signings make sense today - in March - lets hope a good percentage of them pan out as well as we all hope and interpret their potential as a Brown to be.
Posted By: BpG Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/20/23 08:41 PM
When you take such a huge swing and a whiff on Johnson you have to replace him with something serviceable.

Almost feels like an over-reaction a bit, JJ was so, so bad last year we went out and signed the best FS we could find.

Good find considering the sized hole that was left from an absolutely terrible signing in JJ.
Posted By: HotBYoungTurk Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/26/23 05:48 AM
Still would like to add Ji'ayir Brown from Penn St.
Posted By: bonefish Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/26/23 11:15 AM
JJ3 was a good player with the Rams.

His time with us was not so good. Why?

You have to look at the Browns defensive scheme. I don't think it was a bad signing.

I think we had gaping holes in the middle of the defense and the communication was poor. When you have blown coverages and players are looking at each other. That is coaching. If you can not stop the run up front. It creates problems on all levels. Linebackers get put out of position and are blocked by OL. Safety's are left to crash the box and get beat in coverage.

One thing I know about Jim Schwartz. The players will know what to do. He coaches players. Communication will not be a problem.

We have upgraded the defensive line. Tomlinson is a legit run stuffer. He will help Winfrey in many ways.

I think linebacker play will improve because assignments will be clear.

We have good depth at corner. I expect to see us use quite a bit of dime packages which should help safety play.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/26/23 12:09 PM
The 2-High Safety look is almost certainly here to stay in the NFL because teams are focused on stopping deep passes. NFL offenses are starting to adapt by running shorter routes and going w/more Inside Zone rather than Outside Zone run blocking. I think you're mistaken if you believe that Schwartz won't be utilizing the Two-high safety look. We need better safety play rather than a shift away from the Two-high look.

I know you love Delpit, but he was terrible back there. His reads are painfully slow. He is often standing still trying to figure out the routes. I think he would be a good box safety, but teams aren't running that as often anymore. Hopefully, he will improve in his recognition. He's still young. Thornhill should be a significant upgrade from JJIII in coverage, although I do worry about teams breaking long runs because he is not a good tackler, especially in space.

I do agree w/you that we should see improved play from the d-line and linebackers under Schwartz.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/26/23 12:26 PM
For those who would like to learn more about the evolution and growth of the Two High defense, I did a quick search and here is a good article from PFF that talks about why teams have moved to playing more Two-High and why it's been effective. Fwiw: Woods was part of that coaching tree, so it's not wise to criticize him for utilizing the Two High look. It's best to go right to the link to see the visuals that help explain the text.


Quote
Galina: Why two-high defenses are poised to take over the NFL

By Seth Galina
Mar 5, 2021


The NFL is in the midst of another defensive evolution, and it’s going to follow the tried-and-tested way football usually changes: it's going to move very slowly and then all of a sudden everyone will be doing the same thing.

We saw precisely that in the early 2010s when the explosion of Pete Carroll’s single-high defense took over the league. If you win games, especially on defense, people will want to copy you. And not only did Seattle's defense win games, but it also helped neutralize the NFL's offenses. It allowed them to bully outside receivers and control the game.

The Carroll tree was subsequently stripped and exported throughout the league, and we ended up with a whole NFL that wanted to play single-high-safety defenses.


But these defensive answers can never last. Offenses eventually figure them out, and the defense must get out of its way and find new answers. Of course, getting out of your own way is probably the most challenging part; coaches probably always feel like they can fix problems with better execution when the problems often need to be solved at the structural level.

At a time with all the single-high defenses that spun a safety down in the box, running lanes became clogged. At the same time, the NFL started to feel the trickle-up effect of better quarterback play across all levels of the game. Quarterbacks were training better and getting more reps as youngsters, which led to them coming into the league with so much more passing experience than any generation before. The NFL became a passing league.



A single-high safety coverage is always going to give a team answers against the run — they have the advantage of an extra player in the box. You can still select more than capable pass defenses — such as Cover 1, Cover 3 spot-drop or Cover 3 match — but those coverages often need special players on the outside, which is precisely what Pete Carroll happened to have.

Without the kind of All-Pro defenders the Seattle Seahawks used to deploy, two-high coverages — especially quarters-type coverages — are probably best when it comes to defending the pass in today's NFL.

As noted, fixing your problems with an entirely new structure is hard work — it takes thinking outside the box. And yet, 2020 was the first year we saw real change, and 2021 could be the year that everyone decides they’ve had enough of the single-high world.

PFF has charted the defensive looks on every play of every game since 2014, and the 2020 season was the first time defenses lined up in a pre-snap middle-of-the-field-closed look on less than 50% of first- and second-down snaps.


Pictured: A defensive alignment that PFF charts as “middle of the field closed.”
As opposed to a pre-snap open look:


Pictured: A defensive alignment that PFF charts as “middle of the field open.”

In all, 48.6% of all early-down snaps were played with that middle-of-the-field closed look, down from 53.9% in 2018 and 57.6% in 2019. And the important thing to know about these numbers is who is pulling the average down under 50%.

The Los Angeles Rams led the NFL in expected points added (EPA) allowed per play this regular season and played the fewest early-down pre-snap closed looks — only 11% of their early-down snaps were in a pre-snap closed look. For reference, the 2015 Seahawks did this 75% of the time.

Of course, some teams played a low percentage of snaps in this look before the 2020 Rams came along, but the schemes that spread throughout the league are the ones that dominate statistically. That’s what the Rams did in 2020 with new defensive coordinator Brandon Staley, who landed a head-coaching job with the Los Angeles Chargers after just one year of coordinator experience.

Staley previously coached under Vic Fangio in Denver and Chicago. And for what it’s worth, Fangio’s 2020 Broncos recorded the second-lowest pre-snap middle-of-the-field-closed rate in the league. Back in Chicago, the Bears hired Sean Desai as defensive coordinator this offseason, and Desai has worked with both Fangio and Staley.

The scheme spreads via coaching personnel and tape. Entrenched defensive coordinators will also look at what Staley and Fangio have done over the last few years and pick up on some strategies.

The purely single-high teams were at risk of getting run out of the building as offenses found better ways to manipulate their defense. Last offseason, I wrote about how deep crossing routes manipulated these one-high structures and concluded with the following:

“With more teams going to the Shanahan-style wide-zone offense, we could see the popularity of these routes skyrocket in the coming years until the inevitable shift to a quarters (two-high) landscape will cause another change in the offense-versus-defense dynamic.“

If the shift does end up being to quarters, we will see offenses respond with different routes. In 2020, we saw teams target different routes based on whether the defense ended up in a post-snap closed or open coverage. We saw the percentage of targeted deep crossing routes double when going from two-high to single-high — offenses targeted these routes around 3% of the time against two-high and 6% of the time against single-high. Over-routes are the 14th-most targeted route against two-high and the sixth-most targeted route against one-high.

Offenses will still want to attack the space outside the seam in the 18-22 yard range, but we could see those targeted routes start from the same side of the field rather than coming across the formation. Concepts that involve a deep vertical route from an outside receiver and an intermediate out-route from the slot are common versus quarters coverages because the combination puts the safety and cornerback to that side in a bind about who is going to pick up which route.

Quarters could be an answer. After all, we saw the Tampa Bay Buccaneers eliminate the potent Kansas City Chiefs offense by playing quarters variants in Super Bowl 55. Last season, we also saw the highest number of quarters-coverage snaps against passing plays since we began charting in 2014. So, it’s an excellent place to start.

The other answer is staying in a two-high look long enough and then spinning a safety down after the snap as a robber but still playing either Cover 1 or Cover 3. These types of coverages give the defense layers.

If a defense plays Cover 1 and rushes only four players, there will be a free “rat” player looking to eliminate difficult routes. If the team is already aligned in a pre-snap closed look, that player will almost certainly be a second-level linebacker. This role has no problems picking up and “robbing” underneath routes, but there is no answer against deeper routes:



The Mike linebacker, No. 44, is just standing there while Tyreek Hill runs by him.

NFL defenses showed two-high and then spun down to single-high at the second-highest rate we have ever charted on early downs last season, at just under 13% of the time — two percentage points higher than in 2019.



Here, we can see how the safety dropping down to become a robber player spooks Jimmy Garoppolo on the crossing route, which forces him to throw late and blind for an interception. Layers.

In the copycat league that is the NFL, we can easily see an explosion of these styles of defense because of the success of the Fangios and Staleys of the world. This could be the first year of many in succession that the league falls under 50% of early-down pre-snap closed-look defenses. It’s going to force offenses to adapt, and the cycle will continue.

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-galina-why-two-high-defenses-are-set-to-take-over-the-nfl
Posted By: bonefish Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/26/23 12:30 PM
I can not say Delpit is a guy I love.

I am more in the camp that he is a developing player. I have patience with players especially when I think they are not being coached well or, the players are not executing.

I watched play after after play when the DT's were sealed off a gap. In addition, the use of man coverage (both press and off) appeared poorly conceived.

Our defense as a cohesive unit for the most part stunk.

When you look at the additions to the staff and the players added to the defense. Clearly, the decision was made that we needed better coaching and better players.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/26/23 12:44 PM
Agreed. Joe Woods was a mistake that has been corrected.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/26/23 12:57 PM
My point was not that Woods shouldn't have been fired. My point was that Schwartz is going to run the same Two-High look. Did you even bother to read the article?

Anyway, if anyone is interested..........our pass defense started off horribly last year. Too many missed assignments and big plays allowed. They really improved as the season progressed. The run defense struggled all year. The best evaluative tool is not yards allowed or points allowed, but DVOA (Defense-adjusted Value Over Average). I'll provide the link, but you will see that our Overall ranking was 23rd. We were ranked 16th against the pass and 28th vs the run.


https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/nfl/team-defense/2022/regular?check_logged_in=1
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/26/23 01:18 PM
Okay fine. Hopefully with JS he'll teach our players the right way to play that D. They sure didn't know how to last season. I will read the article you made available.
Posted By: YTownBrownsFan Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/26/23 01:34 PM
It seems to me that our defense played better at the end of the season in the 2021 season as well, after it was too late.
Posted By: Dawgs4Life Re: Browns sign Juan Thornhill - 03/29/23 02:06 PM
We’ve needed help at safety forever. Let’s hope he pans out more than JJ3
© DawgTalkers.net