NFL Network's Mike Mayock thinks the Browns should jump at chance to trade up and take RG3 at No. 2
Published: Wednesday, February 15, 2012, 6:33 PM Updated: Wednesday, February 15, 2012, 6:58 PM
Mary Kay Cabot, The Plain Dealer
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- NFL Network draft expert Mike Mayock said Wednesday he "loves everything about'' Baylor quarterback Robert Griffin III and that the Browns should do everything they can to land him in the draft, including trading up.
"As much as I like Colt McCoy, I still think they have to look to upgrade that position and I think they have to do whatever it takes to get there,'' said Mayock of grabbing Griffin. "If it's me, yeah, I'm looking at that real hard. I want to go get RG3.''
Mayock said he'd consider a free agent such as Green Bay's Matt Flynn, too, but that he'd focus on moving up to No. 2 and giving the Rams the Browns' No. 4 and No. 22 overall picks to take Griffin.
"If you're talking purely draft, I'm looking to move up to No. 2 as opposed to No. 3, because if I move to three what if the Redskins come up to two? Obviously I'd like to give less -- I'd rather not give up No. 22 also -- but I think that's shortsighted when you're talking about trying to secure your future at the most important position in all of sports.''
Mayock stressed that if the Browns draft Griffin, they'll need to adapt their offense to suit his strong arm and world-class speed instead of molding him to their West Coast offense.
"I thought the coaches around the NFL last year did a better job than with rookie quarterbacks than they’ve ever done,'' said Mayock. "They adapted some of their offense to suit what the rookie quarterback does best. Look at Cam Newton. Look at (Andy) Dalton. Look at (Christian) Ponder. They gave those kids chances to make plays in comfortable situations.
“If Cleveland moves up to get this kid, they have to make this kid comfortable. He’s too explosive and too much of a playmaker to have him just sit there and read the triangle the West Coast offense is. In other words, (new offensive coordinator) Brad Childress and that group of coaches in Cleveland is going to have to change some things to make this kid the playmaker he is.''
Mayock described Griffin as "one of the most gifted kids in the last several years in this draft.
"Is there some downside to Robert Griffin? Yes, there is. However, you probably have the opportunity to move up and get him if you want him, and to me that's a pretty exciting proposition to build your young franchise around maybe the most exciting player in this year's draft.''
He said Flynn would provide "a more conventional NFL-style attack, versus with Griffin, grab a hold of the seat of your pants and we're going for a ride. It might be really special, and on the other hand, it might not. I think it's intriguing.''
Mayock said that although he loves "everything about the kid,'' he does have one question, and that's where the shred of doubt comes in. "He doesn't throw with anticipation, mostly because he doesn't have to,'' said Mayock. "In that offense, there's minimal footwork and they spread it out so wide. He's got some talented, gifted receivers, and he's got great touch and accuracy in medium and deep (throws). He's got arm strength, he's got athletic ability, he takes hits, but he doesn't anticipate throws.
"He waits until they develop and then throws them. My only question is, will he develop it? You won't find it at the combine. Where I think you'll find it is when teams meet with this kid and they sit down and put the tape on and they break it down with him and talk football and ask him what he sees or doesn't see.''
Despite that, Mayock thinks the Heisman Trophy winner is well worth the two No. 1s.
"I think it will be a hell of a ride,'' he said. "The more tape I put on of this kid, the more fun I have watching him. I was pleasantly surprised by his pocket awareness, his eyes down the field, and his physical toughness is outstanding. He takes a lot of hits and it doesn't bother him. All of those things mean a lot to me. And again, the one "however'' piece of it is just that he's going to have to learn to anticipate and get the ball out of his hands more quickly so he doesn't continue to take those kind of hits.''
Mayock said Griffin brings the one element the Browns really need.
"The bottom line for me is that he's a playmaker,'' said Mayock. "Bottom line, he's a playmaker and that's what this league's all about, especially at that position.''
Mayock said the comparisons between Griffin and 2011 rookie sensation Cam Newton make no sense.
"I think RG3 is a more natural thrower of the football, even though Cam was also,'' said Mayock. "I think RG3 looks down the field and throws more routes, and I don't think we had any of the off-the-field issues that we had with Cam. From my perspective, you're looking at a clean kid and now you're just trying to evaluate the football piece of it. To me it's a completely different animal.''
He said Griffin's height -- he's listed as 6-2 but some might think he'll be closer to 6-1 at the combine -- won't be an issue.
"This kid I think is such a great athlete that he can find lanes differently and still keep his eyes down the field and still make plays,'' said Mayock. "He's not just a runner. I think people are getting hung up on that. I think he's a gifted thrower also.''
He said the Browns would have to be looking at Oklahoma State receiver Justin Blackmon and Alabama running back Trent Richardson if they don't draft Griffin.
"Blackmon and Richardson are two very logical people if you stay there at four,'' he said.
”The last (running back) you banged the table this hard for was Adrian Peterson when he came out of Oklahoma,'' said Mayock. "I think his height, weight speed toughness all adds up to a pretty solid pick. I would surmise absolutely (he's a good pick for the Browns).''
We just made all these moves to bring in WCO guys, all on the same page only to draft a non WQCO QB?
Quote:
We just made all these moves to bring in WCO guys, all on the same page only to draft a non WQCO QB?
That's the single biggest crock we will hear about a QB...
Virtually ANY QB that is even half accurate can run a WCO...Even with a Noodle Arm...Accuracy and Brains to run it r the 2 key elements...
Conversely...NOT any QB can run a Vertical Style Offense...For obvious reasons...
If anything we can finally turn to chapter 2 and 3 of the WCO (see Philly) and implement some deep crossers, which in return, open up the bread and butter underneath stuff
We can EXPAND the playbook and not CUT IT DOWN like we had to for Colt....major difference
Quote:
If anything we can finally turn to chapter 2 and 3 of the WCO (see Philly) and implement some deep crossers, which in return, open up the bread and butter underneath stuff
We can EXPAND the playbook and not CUT IT DOWN like we had to for Colt....major difference
EXACTLY...
Everyone thinks WCO is all short throws...U throw short all the time and u can forget any running game...Safeties up...8 and 9 in the box...Equals FAILURE...And when u have a McCoy running this u r doomed simply because noone in their right mind respects his deeper stuff...
RGIII has a superb arm for deeper stuff...
IF Gil Brandt says anything remotely close to Mayock...I'M SOLD...
Give 4 and 22...And one of our 4's if need be and go get this dude...
I have two questions for all the gurus out there.
Let's say that we do what mayock suggests..Trade up to get RG3. he comes in and as often happens with rookies on a less than talented team, they struggle for a year.. maybe more. (bradford)
Are we then supposed to go after the next new shiny object QB in the draft?
Will we get another article in two years from Mayock or some other media draft Guru that says we should go after Joe X as the next great QB that we just 'Gotta have"?
When is this merry-go-round going to end.
At some point, you gotta stop looking for a winning Madden team or fantasy team and get real.
So, if we do go after RG3 or Luck or whoever,, Damn it, YOU GOTTA GIVE IT TIME TO MATURE. No more quick triggers. it's insanity..
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE THE BEST at every position.. EVEN QB.
It helps,, it would be wonderful,, great in fact. But it's not required.. You get enough good players that are motivated, you can win a lotta games.. A Whole lotta games..
Quote:
Mayock stressed that if the Browns draft Griffin, they'll need to adapt their offense to suit his strong arm and world-class speed instead of molding him to their West Coast offense.
I seriously doubt that the Browns are going to change the WCO after just spending a year installing the offense and bringing in another WCO coach to help teach it.
If the Browns draft Griffin, he will have to adapt to the WCO.
As for RG the superior running, athletic QB...the NFL has a way of chewing up running QBs who believe they can run like they did in college. Griffin is not a Tim Tebow type who can endure the punishment...though Tebow found out the hard way...they hit a heck of a lot harder in the NFL.
Griffin already has a surgically repaired right knee which cost him most of his 2009 season (9 games). If he's going to be a QB for the Browns, he will have be a pass first, throw the ball away second, and run only if you have to third, type of QB.
I believe he can adapt to the NFL and the WCO but whether Griffin becomes a successful QB in the NFL depends on his ability to pass the ball...not his ability to run the ball.
Quote:
If anything we can finally turn to chapter 2 and 3 of the WCO (see Philly) and implement some deep crossers, which in return, open up the bread and butter underneath stuff
We can EXPAND the playbook and not CUT IT DOWN like we had to for Colt....major difference
Do you honestly believe they will draft a QB not suited to the WCO as Holmgren sees it? I don't.
If it's true that he'll have to adapt to our WCO, I bet the browns go a different direction.
FWIW - On the way to work the other day I was listening to NFL radio and Solomon Wilcox was talking about how RGIII is a perfect fit for a WCO in general and was talking specifically about his fit with the Browns.
This is an issue of MKC misinterpreting what Mayock is saying. He's saying "If you're just going to run a normal West Coast, you're going to miss out on/waste a lot of what he can do."
Here's Mayock's quote:
Quote:
“If Cleveland moves up to get this kid, they have to make this kid comfortable. He’s too explosive and too much of a playmaker to have him just sit there and read the triangle the West Coast offense is. In other words, (new offensive coordinator) Brad Childress and that group of coaches in Cleveland is going to have to change some things to make this kid the playmaker he is.''
This isn't saying he can't run the WCO at all. It's saying he has skills that will go to waste if we run an offense where Mike Lombardi can call the plays based on down and distance.
Quote:
FWIW - On the way to work the other day I was listening to NFL radio and Solomon Wilcox was talking about how RGIII is a perfect fit for a WCO in general and was talking specifically about his fit with the Browns.
LOL Perfect reason to devalue what the talking heads say 
Yeah,, you are right Steve,, OK,, Thanks for correcting my take.
Michael Vick sure isn't a prototypical WCO QB and they brought him into Philly and it largely worked. He's got health issues and head issues but that's something else. RG3 is more accurate, stronger and smarter. WCO is a very loose definition, there's a lot of styles and individual nuances to a WCO. He's a bright kid with a strong arm and TONS of natural ability. I think you have to gamble in this league when you're up at this end of the draft order with a questionable QB in the pocket and a potential franchise guy sitting there. I personally see *STAR* when I watch this kid play. I think he's got "it" IMO. And frankly we could afford to let Colt start the year. If he does reasonably well then we've got a very nice problem heading into next years offseason with a lower 1st round pick and a QB for trade. You gotta know we're going to get a look at RG3 at some point anyway. No one taking snaps stays healthy for a full 16 on the Browns, lol.
I would be willing to bet a lot is going to depend on H&H&S interviewing the kid and how they all get along. If he's positive and receptive to suggestions and molding, I would think that would play into the decision quite a bit. If I was in that decider room that would be very important to me. Does he have that balance of humility and confidence, openness and determination, etc? Being a great QB is at least 50% upstairs.
Every QB prospect with an ounce of accuracy "fits" the WCO...they typically say things like "fits best in a WCO" to 1 dimensional, "system" QBs with severe shortcomings (most times lack of arm and height)...like Colt McCoy was as a prospect or Kellen Moore is thsi draft...
that DOES NOT mean that other QB prospects can't play in a WCO...it just means that THOSE "limited" QBs can ONLY play in a WCO....it doesn't exclude others to play in a WCO
RG fits the WCO as much as Luck and McCoy...but Luck and RG can be drafted for other systems too, elevating their "value"....
Similar to this you'll often find OLB prospects that can "only" play on the weak side in a 43 because they're undersized....mostly OLB/SS tweeners like L.David, Spence etc...that limits their value and those prospects tend to drop
Back to RG: I agree though that he has to forget about running the ball and becaome strictly a pocket passer...but he has already shown in College that he is a passer 1st by going through progressions and searching for receivers before taking off....Colt otoh always has been a 1read or dump/take off QB....he never kept his eyes downfield searching for receivers even in College...and he sruggled to do so last season...when he tried to he was often late to throw as we've all witnessed and even when situations demanded he looks downfield he reverted back to his instincts and either took off or dumped it to Mack or a RB on 3rd and long....he is simply overwhelmed by the speed of the game and he can't process it yet (and think he never will, as he has no plus trait to make up for it)....I and others have criticized him for "stat whoring" but that wasn't fair as he never did this on purpose...he simply was not ABLE to do something else (call it lack of ability or confidence or a mix of both...the end result is the same)...it's his "style" and what he can do...and that's simply not enough to be considered a NFL franchise QB
If,this kid is as good as advertised,go get him.
If,the people in charge are not flexible enough to adapt to what this kid,or any player for that matter,is capable of,than get rid of them.
I don't believe the latter to be the case.These are smart football men that have been around for quite awhile.
The naysayers will find a thousand reasons(read excuses) to not trade for this kid.
our QB play has been horrific for,well forever it seems.If the only negative is that he lacks anticipation,then,this ain't no ketchup commercial.
Scheme is overrated.
I guess the question I have is, will we make the adjustments??
Good Lb analogy.
I am waiting for the combine results to get RGIII's true Ht/Wt. Is he big and strong enough to take the beating that ALL NFL Qb's take every year?
Quote:
I guess the question I have is, will we make the adjustments??
Again, what adjustments? To what? We will open up the WCO...does the Philly WCO look anything like ours? and yet, Shurmur and Childress have worked and planned exactly THAT Offense in Philly together as OC and QB coach
Why would Shurmur call those deep crossers when his QB can't even throw a 10-15yd out to the sideline with authority? By cutting down the playbook and his "He battled" PCs you could tell Shurmur wasn't happy with Colt and felt handcuffed by him....what was he supposed to do when he clearly saw that his QB can't or won't throw the necessary throws?
General comment:
Is Aaron Rodgers "wasted" in Green Bay's version of the WCO?
I don't think so.
Was Brett Favre?
I, for one, would love to see some of the deeper routes down the field, and deeper outs ... frrst, actually thrown ....... and second, thrown with authority.
Now, the reason I quoted you ......
Quote:
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE THE BEST at every position.. EVEN QB.
You sure better get one of the best if you want to win a Super Bowl. That is the lesson of the last decade or so. Teams with average to slightly above average QBs don't win championships anymore. I want a guy with an arm that the defense has to respect so that underneath stuff opens up. I want a guy who can hit a wide open receiver on a go, or especially against a blown coverage. Plus, it makes it so much easier if you have a great QB. If it's crunch time .... down by 4 with 35 seconds left at our own 30, I want a guy who might be able to get us to the end zone.
That might just be me though.
As far as when the "merry go round ends" ..... when we get a guy who shows the potential to be great. Right now, for any of the things that McCoy does well, he shows potential to maybe be good. Good doesn't cut it anymore. To win Super Bowls you need great.
Quote:
I am waiting for the combine results to get RGIII's true Ht/Wt. Is he big and strong enough to take the beating that ALL NFL Qb's take every year?
What if he measures 6' 0", 213#?
I agree with this. I think the play calling was hampered by the talent on the field and not the other way around. Can't call plays if your guys aren't good enough to make them work.
It doesn't matter if RG3 is short. It doesnt matter that he took 1 snap from under center in his career. It doesn't matter that his footwork is sloppy. It Doesn't matter if he is a horrible fit for this offense.
If we spend 2 firsts to trade up and get him, he is going to be great. Why because he is worth 2 firsts. All we have to do is dump the system we are trying to install.
Just think if we spend 4 firsts on Luck wow he is really going to be a superstar. Superbowl every year!!!
Quote:
We just made all these moves to bring in WCO guys, all on the same page only to draft a non WQCO QB?
That's not an option with this franchise. He will have to learn the offense, just as Colt McCoy did and still does.
But hey it makes for nice drama for the talking heads to talk about.
Change our whole offense to suit one player? Why not do the same for Colt McCoy. Certainly there are things that we could have done last year to make him more "comfortable".
I'm not saying that we shouldn't draft the kid, but he is going to have to learn the WCO if he is drafted by us.
Mayock is stirring the pot like he is paid to do, but just because other teams changed their offense to suit their QB, that doesn't mean that it will happen here. All of our FO and Coach's are committed to the WCO.
Makes me wonder how much thought is involved here. 
Quote:
If anything we can finally turn to chapter 2 and 3 of the WCO (see Philly) and implement some deep crossers, which in return, open up the bread and butter underneath stuff
We can EXPAND the playbook and not CUT IT DOWN like we had to for Colt....major difference
That's what you think it is? I think its much more obvious if anyone would bother to be objective. I get that we all want a winner. And i get that colt might not be that guy to do it.
But to say this is utter and total bs.
First off this guy says that rg3 has problems with anticipating routes. Well guess what...our entire offense is based off anticipation and timing. Can rg3 do it? If he gets a chance to learn probably. These young qb's have to LEARN this stuff...rg3, colt...all of them.
You guys want deep balls...well i'll say that you can't see the forest for the trees.
We had problems last year protecting on 3 and 5 step drops....so yeah lets call some 7 step drops.
And you want to run deep passes that take even more time to develop? You can't develop a young qb if he's in the hospital, and that's just what you guys are calling for. We kept him upright is what we did.
We had evan moore on the bench a ton because he couldn't block well enough. We had running backs staying in to block.
Guess what? If linebackers don't have to worry about a rb or te because they can't release, then they can cover a receiver short, to intermediate, and have a safety protecting deep.
This team needs a line that can block long enough for a deep throw.
It needs a receiver that can get open deep.
And a qb that can throw it deep.
Do we have all that? Beats me. First you need the line to do it....then you can see if a receiver can get open...then the qb has to make the throw. Not to mention that whole not dropping the ball thing. Or being in the right situation.
Here's a breakdown of passes for 2010, now i know its not the WCO. Its is basically bs because it doesn't factor in drops, or situations either. It gives an overall idea though.
going deep
McCoy is rated better than some big names on deep completion percentage. So he can throw it deep.
Do we have a deep threat receiver? Not really.
Did the line have the ability to protect that long? I wouldn't bet on it consistently. Two rooks, and a washed up rt?
Yeah chuck it deep...i like the drama.
When is the best time to throw it deep? I'll bet the answer is 2nd or 3rd and short with play-action. When does play action work..when you can consistently run the ball....
We were in neither situation much last year. Deep passes work when the defense doesn't expect it...or when a play can result in a first down by a run, or a pass of any length. Basically they are forced to play you honest.
We were hardly ever in favorable situations until late season when hillis finally got healthy.
Lets throw it deep when its 3rd and 15...think the defense doesn't suspect a deep pass in that situation?
Deep passes keep a defense honest....so does a running game. Maybe you should go learn about what the WCO is supposed to accomplish.
You can run the ball. If they put 8 in the box to stop it.
You can throw short quick passes outside to spread them back out.
Its about making the defense defend the whole field. It defeats the 8 in the box by spreading out the defense.
Deep balls are something we will see. They are low percentage throws at best. We haven't had the luxury of being in good situations to have a chance at success either.
the playbook was scaled back for the entire offense, because they didn't have the time to learn it all. The playbook was restricted by what the entire offense could do from both lack of experience, and as a team.
Does colt have a rocket arm....no. Is the deep ball his strength. No. Can he throw it deep....absolutely.
Quote:
Quote:
I am waiting for the combine results to get RGIII's true Ht/Wt. Is he big and strong enough to take the beating that ALL NFL Qb's take every year?
What if he measures 6' 0", 213#?
It would give me pause. For a couple reasons.
First (and yes there are always exceptions but in general) shorter Qb's have a significantly lower success rate. In a guy that you aren't completely sold on (and I am not yet) it would be another negative. Not the end all be all but one in the negative column.
Second - I have some concerns that he might be a little fragile. Maybe, maybe not. But if he is smaller that would add some emphasis to this concern. Again not the end all be all but another in the negative column.
the point was that that was what Drew Brees measured at the combine. He had a shoulder injury one year, but I'd say he's been able to be successful at the NFL level overall.
From mac's video, at the Heisman award ceremony: RG3 and Luck standing up after sitting side by side.
I think that RG3 slouches sometimes, which makes him look shorter than he is.
Quote:
It doesn't matter if RG3 is short. It doesnt matter that he took 1 snap from under center in his career. It doesn't matter that his footwork is sloppy. It Doesn't matter if he is a horrible fit for this offense.
If we spend 2 firsts to trade up and get him, he is going to be great. Why because he is worth 2 firsts. All we have to do is dump the system we are trying to install.
Just think if we spend 4 firsts on Luck wow he is really going to be a superstar. Superbowl every year!!!
Who says he is a horrible fit for this offense? Who (besides MKC) says we need to dump the system if we draft RGIII? 
Quote:
First off this guy says that rg3 has problems with anticipating routes. Well guess what...our entire offense is based off anticipation and timing.
IIRC, this is the same thing they are saying about Tannehill.
Not only should we change our offense to make him more comfortable, but we should trade up to #2 also.
And it's going to take more then the #4 and#22 selections to do so.
Staying at #4 and taking the BPA doesn't offer the drama that a trade in the top 5 does, so naturally they would like nothing more to create more drama and more to discuss concerning the Draft.
Not to worry folks, these guys are all fickle and will change their tune when the wind blows from now and up to the Draft. It's not their interest at steak.
I just expected more thoughtfulness out of Mike Mayock.
Where have I heard this song before.....
Quote:
Where have I heard this song before.....
The truth does seem to have a melody all its own that reverberates throughout the ages .....
In the article this thread is based on Mike Mayock, one of the most respected analysts in football, says, "He’s too explosive and too much of a playmaker to have him just sit there and read the triangle the West Coast offense is. In other words, (new offensive coordinator) Brad Childress and that group of coaches in Cleveland is going to have to change some things to make this kid the playmaker he is."
Its not that I want to bag on Mike Mayock. He's as good as any of the draft guru's, I guess - BUT - he did have Blaine Gabbert and Jake Locker ahead of Cam Newton, Andy Dalton, and Christian Ponder. In 2010, he thought the Browns should take Jimmy Clausen at #7 in the first round. In 2009, he had Mark Sanchez ranked ahead of Matt Stafford. In 2005, he preferred Alex Smith over Aaron Rodgers. The real talent evaluators work in NFL front offices, and as of right now they aren't talking.
Right. Mayock is saying he has more skills than are required in this offense. He's not saying Griffin can't run this offense.
I would love to have an FO and Coach who know how to put a round peg in a round hole !
Quote:
The real talent evaluators work in NFL front offices, and as of right now they aren't talking.
I agree.
Mayock is fun to listen to, but I don't think he always thinks objectively before he speaks and he let's his emotions get the better of him, not unlike many fans do.
We should trade away our draft and change our offense to suit one player.
If you take out said player out of this said equation, then you have to see that it's impulsive and hair brained to suggest such a thing.
Is it even a given that another team will trade into the top 5 (2) to take Griffen.
No it is not.
This is all based on pure and simple speculation.
One in which creates more drama for the Draft.
I'm pretty confident, that if we do Draft Griffen, that he will have to learn 'our' system, even if that means him sitting on the bench for a year or two and that's a lot to give (trade) up for a guy who may or may not be "the guy". Mean while back at the farm we have less options in this and next years draft to continue building this franchise.
I'll take a 50/50 chance on any one draft pick and live with the possible out come if he fails to cut the mustard, but I can't live with losing out on 3 possible high draft picks, that can go along way in improving this team in the next two years.
Quote:
Right. Mayock is saying he has more skills than are required in this offense. He's not saying Griffin can't run this offense.
Hmmm
Rodgers and Brees run a WCO and I don't think that their skills are limited in their offense.
We where in WCO 101 mode last year and this offense I think will build on that just as they have done elsewhere.
If mayock, Kiper, or any other these other self proclaimed guru's were any good they would be working for a NFL team.
Quote:
If mayock, Kiper, or any other these other self proclaimed guru's were any good they would be working for a NFL team.
Maybe ........
There's a lot more work that goes into working for an NFL team than being a talking head on TV. There's a lot to be said for being at home most every night of the year.
That's not to necessarily say that they know more than an NFL team, because they almost certainly don't put in the sheer volume of film work and research that someone working as a scout does.
Quote:
If mayock, Kiper, or any other these other self proclaimed guru's were any good they would be working for a NFL team.
I have read somewhere, I will try and find it, that Mayock would have a NFL job as soon as he wanted one. He watches more film than anyone I know of.
Quote:
“I want the guys from NFL teams, the guys who really do it for a living — the general managers, the personnel guys, the scouts and the coaches — I want them to respect the fact that I’m trying to do it the right way. They might disagree with my evaluation of a player, but I hope that they respect the work that it took to get there.
Quote:
And he has received “several offers” to join the NFL front offices during the past five seasons. Mayock refused to divulge the particulars of the offers.
“Never thought it was the right time or right opportunity,” Mayock said. “That’s always a possibility. I’m a football guy, first and foremost.”
Link
Quote:
I have two questions for all the gurus out there.
Let's say that we do what mayock suggests..Trade up to get RG3. he comes in and as often happens with rookies on a less than talented team, they struggle for a year.. maybe more. (bradford)
Are we then supposed to go after the next new shiny object QB in the draft?
Answer???...NO NO and NO...
Man u r soooo driven by media it ain't even funny...And I'm NOT explaining that...
Quote:
When is this merry-go-round going to end.
When we find a QB that has the Physical and Mental Talent to build upon and develop...
And McCoy ain't it...It's so damn obvious it's pathetic...But let's keep that BS 22 pick and get some mediocre possible decent starter and leave the QB position alone yet again...The talent at 22 is JUNK this year...
U need to get a gosh damn CLUE...Stop reading all the media BS in Cleveland and stop falling into all the fan noise crap...I ain't explaining that one either...
Until we get a QB on this team that has the Physical and Mental capabilities that we can develop and build around...We ain't goin' ANYWHERE...Build the team all u want...Keep trading down and leaving ELITE talent on the board for some BS 2nd and 5th rounders...And when we're 8-8 and 9-7 constantly...Good damn luck ever finding a QB...
The BEST QB's in any draft r going 1-2-3...The teams drafting in those spots r there because they SUCK...And it's mostly because they don't have a decent QB...Bradford was injured all year...And Ponder should've been a 3rd or 4th round pick...
Now u go right ahead and build up this team to be 8-8 or 9-7...Good gosh damn luck trying to pry the #2 or #3 pick away from a team that SUCKS and has no QB worth a damn...
MOUR...The only reason u slam RGIII is because u have your head so far up Tanny's butt it's clouding your judgement...U need to get off the fixation with Tannehill and start at least LOOKING at this possibility of Griffin...Cause we're in striking distance to make it happen if we like this kid...Open your mind a bit and start breaking it down...
The more I think about this the more I'm liking it...We all know what Roperburger does to us every time we meet...He gets free and buys time and makes something happen...And it's usually HUGE...3rd and 10 and he's about SACKED...Only to get out of it and hits Ward for 15...And that lil' AHOLE gets up with that pansy ass smurk on his face...Imagine what a QB the caliber of Griffen could do with that being 50 times more mobile...
Quote:
The talent at 22 is JUNK this year...
It is?
Quote:
Quote:
The talent at 22 is JUNK this year...
It is?
I don't think I'd go that far. I think that there are quality starters to be had at 22. Maybe not superstars ...... but definitely legitimate NFL starters.
So it's like every other year.
Probably. I don't think that the strike last year had an impact on underclassmen. (other than maybe Luck) I don't think that the talent pool is diluted for any reason. (except maybe Barkley and a player or 2 like Ball returning to school this year) I actually like the depth at WR and CB to an extent down to rounds 2-3.
I pretty much already knew this. Just wanted to confirm the absurdity of that post.
You are so hell bent on giving up a pick for a QB that you blind yourself to their faults. Go on another rant about giving up 3 firsts for Luck all you want but that move would be the dumbest thing we could do and giving up 2 firsts to trade up for Griffin would be just as dumb.
I only hope Heckert has a lot more brains than to give up 2 firsts for another smurf from the spread that runs around until the receivers get open.
Quote:
If mayock, Kiper, or any other these other self proclaimed guru's were any good they would be working for a NFL team.
Why? They probably make more than an NFL head of scouting makes and they don't have to be accountable when they are wrong. I'd take Kipers job over a real NFL scout any day. 
Quote:
So it's like every other year.
Not only that, but all prospects come with a possible bust factor.
Even Luck, in part due to the astronomical expectations placed on him by fans and especially the talking heads.
There is a part of me that actually feels sorry for him. He is always going to have the icon of Peyton Manning looking over his shoulders and he is probably not going to have the time Aaron Rodgers had to hone his skills on the bench for a couple of years to slay that dragon so to speak.
So much attention has been given to our first pick, that the rest of the Draft seems to be an after thought around here.
(to all ) You know the Phil Taylor's and Jabaal Sheard's of the draft pool.
PS.....
Do you guy's think that we can get this debate out of first gear? I feel like I have been stuck on ground hogs day ever since. 
Quote:
There is a part of me that actually feels sorry for him. He is always going to have the icon of Peyton Manning looking over his shoulders and he is probably not going to have the time Aaron Rodgers had to hone his skills on the bench for a couple of years to slay that dragon so to speak.
I have thought the same thing. I get the feeling there are a bunch of fans (not just Colt's fans) who expect Luck to pick up on day 1 where Manning left off... and that is totally unrealistic.
Cracks me up that RG3 is getting all this press and completely overshadowing Luck. Would be amazing if the Colts went RG3 at number 1.
I think the press for RGIII is because Luck is a foregone conclusion at 1. It's more fun for the media to speculate about who will trade up to #2 (if anyone) and how much they'll have to give up than to say "It's Thursday, and the Colts are still drafting Andrew Luck at #1."
Yea, lets NOT change our system ( or even tweak it ) for one person even though he may end up being the next Newton or Rodgers for this team.
I say leave it alone for a few more years and lets see if we can make what we already have, all of a sudden more talanted. Heck, The "system" worked SO well last year..............
We just spent an entire year implementing a system. You most certainly DON'T change the entire system for one player. You get the right players for the system you run. If that QB isn't available this year, you don't just plug a new one in for the sake of change. Not when there are other holes that can be filled until the right QB is available. This isn't high school where you have to adapt more to the personnel than the other way around.
I'm reminded of when Lou Holtz recruited Ron Powlus - a passing QB - to be an option QB at Notre Dame. I never understood what was dumber - Holtz recruiting him or him actually going to ND thinking he could suddenly be an option QB.
jc
Which part of "there's no need to change system when you draft RG3" don't you guys get?
And we're also not "giving up our entire draft" if we spend #4 and #22 for him
The system shouldn't be changed. BUT things should be added to take advantage of his athleticism (more shotgun, a little option, etc.)
I would love to see the option run in this division. It would probably work twice before the QB died.
Quote:
"It's Thursday, and the Colts are still drafting Andrew Luck at #1."
I absolutely think SC should open every single show with this (and the correct day of the week) until the draft. It would be one of the best running jokes they'd have had in a long time.
What if,one night in drunken stupor,Payton Manning signs a contract with the Browns?
Does the illustrious Pat Shurmur say to him,"Idon't care what you did in Indy,this is the way we do it"
Or do the powers tweak their scheme to fit what this certain HOFer does best?
You know,give him the best opportunity to succeed.
Many of you are hung up on this WCO scheme,what exactly is that?
I'd venture a guess that most NFL teams run some components of the WCO,hell the Packers look more like a spread team,because they've adapted to thier talent.
I don't watch enough college ball to know if this kid will be good or not.But to not draft a talented player simply because he does not fit your ideal stereotype,would be asinine.
Montana,Young,Mcnabb,Favre,Rodgers,Vick,Hasselbach,what is the commonality between them?They are all different yet each has been successful in the WCO.
In my mind,the prototypical WCO QB is talented and well coached,nothing different that any other successful QB.
"Browns - 4 , 22 , 68 , 100" To move up TWO spots?? Ridiculous.
Going by that I can't see anyone trading up for RGIII.
Quote:
Team Trade Chart Adjusted Chart
Browns 4 , 22 , 183 ......4 , 22 , 68 , 100
Redskins 6 , 1st in 2013......6 , 70 , 109 , 2013 First Round
Dolphins 8 , 74 , 2013 First Round ......8 , 40 , 200 , 2013 First Round
Quote:
Going by that I can't see anyone trading up for RGIII.
I hope you're right. 
What I think is dumb is that they say the Falcons overpaid by 75% (yes, we fleeced them), but then come back and say "this is what it will take to move into that spot based on the Falcons trade".
It's one way or the other.
Falcons trade went pretty much exactly by the trade value chart. Next year's first is always given points for the 32nd pick because that is all that is guaranteed.
Quote:
Quote:
If anything we can finally turn to chapter 2 and 3 of the WCO (see Philly) and implement some deep crossers, which in return, open up the bread and butter underneath stuff
We can EXPAND the playbook and not CUT IT DOWN like we had to for Colt....major difference
EXACTLY...
Everyone thinks WCO is all short throws...U throw short all the time and u can forget any running game...Safeties up...8 and 9 in the box...Equals FAILURE...And when u have a McCoy running this u r doomed simply because noone in their right mind respects his deeper stuff...
RGIII has a superb arm for deeper stuff...
IF Gil Brandt says anything remotely close to Mayock...I'M SOLD...
Give 4 and 22...And one of our 4's if need be and go get this dude...
This is exactly it... The WCO isn't just dinking and dunking it down the field. It's getting defenses to commit to covering that so you can burn them deep and then when they're afraid of the deep ball, throwing short again. It's about getting defenses to commit to the pass so you can open up running lanes. It can even be about making plays scrambling if everything is well covered.
RGIII isn't a standard WCO QB, he actually brings MORE to the table than a normal guy would. Not only is he accurate short, he also throws a beautiful deep ball and possesses great scrambling ability to get out of trouble. We saw this year what happens when a team doesn't respect anything but the short stuff and it means 0 opportunity for YAC as guys running quick routes were getting blown up instantly. Simply put, RGIII will get a defense to respect EVERY aspect of an offense and there isn't a defense in existence that can play against everything all at once.
Who cares if he didn't play under center? Who cares if his footwork can get a bit loose? Who cares if he needs to learn WCO reads? What about that isn't correctable with coaching? RGIII is smart enough that it shouldn't be a problem. Coaching isn't going to suddenly bless Colt to be able to throw with the kind of velocity, distance and arm angles that RGIII can use... but you'd better believe it can get RGIII playing under center. Heck, watch him throw on his pro day, I bet he'll be showing that off some.
Don't tell me the guys who worked with/brought in Favre/Young/McNabb/Vick/Wallace, etc. are going to be scared off by RGIII's ability/athleticism in favor of another noodle arm. If anything, I think they'll be extremely intrigued by them and to me, that's easily worth the 4 and 22 given that most of the guys I liked at 22 (Kendall Wright) aren't likely to even be there.
I hope we have the guts to pull the trigger.
Quote:
Falcons trade went pretty much exactly by the trade value chart. Next year's first is always given points for the 32nd pick because that is all that is guaranteed.
I did the math some weeks ago on this trade and we got way more than the chart value...I remember that the SURPLUS was the value of a late 2nd...in other words: it took ATL what the chart demanded AND another low 2nd to get our pick
Quote:
We all know what Roperburger does to us every time we meet...He gets free and buys time and makes something happen...And it's usually HUGE...3rd and 10 and he's about SACKED...Only to get out of it and hits Ward for 15...And that lil' AHOLE gets up with that pansy ass smurk on his face...Imagine what a QB the caliber of Griffen could do with that being 50 times more mobile...
BR also has the size/strength to shed tackles and make those plays standing upright with defenders hanging on him.
Its still early in the draft process but at this point I do not trade up to get RG3, if hes there at 4 we take him but this team still has a lot of holes and 1st round picks are a valued commodity.
by the value chart our pick was worth 1600 pts. The total of their picks was 1750. They overpaid by the value of a late 3rd rounder.
Quote:
Quote:
Going by that I can't see anyone trading up for RGIII.
I hope you're right.
If the Skins/Phins can somehow sign Peyton Manning, there goes at least one team from the equation. And Flynn is going to one of the teams that need a QB too. I don't think trading up for RG3 will be necessary.
Quote:
Its still early in the draft process but at this point I do not trade up to get RG3, if hes there at 4 we take him but this team still has a lot of holes and 1st round picks are a valued commodity.
It's Official...I'm not gonna make it to the Draft...
Every time I see that comment it lights me on fire...
That is flawed thinking...
If we are willing to take Griffin at 4...That means we think he is FRANCHISE QUALITY...
When u think a QB is Franchise Quality u do everything u can to MAKE SURE U SECURE HIM...
The damn building CAN continue...Jeeeezezzzzz...
Quote:
by the value chart our pick was worth 1600 pts. The total of their picks was 1750. They overpaid by the value of a late 3rd rounder.
It all depends on how you value that future pick. Some people say it's the team's same pick in the next round (team picking 8th trading a future 1 would be worth 8th pick in the 2nd round, #40 overall), some say next round pick 16 no matter where they are picking this year, then I suppose you could count how you did using pick 32. It's all very unscientific, especially when debating futures.
Quote:
by the value chart our pick was worth 1600 pts. The total of their picks was 1750. They overpaid by the value of a late 3rd rounder.
Our 1600p
ATL 2011:
#28 = 660p
#59 = 310p
#124 = 48p
= 1018p
so only for last year's draft we had a value loss of almost 600p
ATL 2012
#22 = 780p
#118 = 58p
= 838p
1018p+838p = 1856p - 1600p = 256p surplus ~ high 3rd...we used exactly this surplus to trade back up for Taylor btw
so you are saying that us trading up for Phil Taylor just made the trade a wash in points
Quote:
What if,one night in drunken stupor,Payton Manning signs a contract with the Browns?
Does the illustrious Pat Shurmur say to him,"Idon't care what you did in Indy,this is the way we do it"
Or do the powers tweak their scheme to fit what this certain HOFer does best?
You know,give him the best opportunity to succeed.
Many of you are hung up on this WCO scheme,what exactly is that?
I'd venture a guess that most NFL teams run some components of the WCO,hell the Packers look more like a spread team,because they've adapted to thier talent.
I don't watch enough college ball to know if this kid will be good or not.But to not draft a talented player simply because he does not fit your ideal stereotype,would be asinine.
Montana,Young,Mcnabb,Favre,Rodgers,Vick,Hasselbach,what is the commonality between them?They are all different yet each has been successful in the WCO.
In my mind,the prototypical WCO QB is talented and well coached,nothing different that any other successful QB.
I never said you don't adapt. I was responding to a post that made it sound like you take a talent regardless of how he fits the scheme, and then totally change what you do. Payton Manning could adapt to this scheme and the scheme would also be adapted to him. Last time I checked; however, RGIII was NOT Payton Manning. I was responding to a post about totally changing everything for RGIII, which I still say I wouldn't do.
Quote:
Quote:
Its still early in the draft process but at this point I do not trade up to get RG3, if hes there at 4 we take him but this team still has a lot of holes and 1st round picks are a valued commodity.
It's Official...I'm not gonna make it to the Draft...
Every time I see that comment it lights me on fire...
That is flawed thinking...
If we are willing to take Griffin at 4...That means we think he is FRANCHISE QUALITY...
When u think a QB is Franchise Quality u do everything u can to MAKE SURE U SECURE HIM...
The damn building CAN continue...Jeeeezezzzzz...
Haha I may not make it either. People don't seem to realize that if teams want a QB and don't hold the #1 pick, they either trade up or reach for him. Rarely do teams just wait and hope that a guy they want will fall to them.
Over the last 5 years, of QBs taken in the 1st round.
2007 - JaMarcus Russell - #1 pick
2007 - Brady Quinn - Trade up to #23
2008 - Matt Ryan
2008 - Joe Flacco - Trade up to #18
2009 - Matthew Stafford - #1 pick
2009 - Mark Sanchez - Trade up to #5
2009 - Josh Freeman - Trade up to #17
2010 - Sam Bradford - #1 pick
2010 - Tim Tebow - Trade up to #25
2011 - Cam Newton - #1 pick
2011 - Jake Locker - Considered a reach at #8
2011 - Blaine Gabbert - Trade up to #10
2011 - Christian Ponder - Considered a big reach at #12
None of this is even considering that many of those #1 picks and guys traded up for were considered moderate-to-huge reaches. That makes 1/13 QBs drafted in the 1st in the past 5 years who a) wasn't a #1 pick but b) considered a reasonably appropriate value at a spot that c) didn't require trading up or reaching (and likely 1/15+ after this year).
It's just the nature of the beast. Getting a 1st round franchise QB is a high stakes game and teams that want one more often than not have to give up value through extra picks to beat other teams to the punch or give up value by reaching. If we want RGIII, we will likely have to give up more than we'd like... but you know what? That's what it takes these days and I'm more than willing to do that than cross my fingers and hope that we get the rare stud who comes from somewhere other than the 1st.
J/C
The good news is, if we sign Matt Flynn we won't have any more "move up to get RGIII" threads. Unfortunately, we'll have all the why it was good/horrible that we signed Flynn threads. At least we'll be beating a new dead horse until the draft!
Quote:
"Browns - 4 , 22 , 68 , 100" To move up TWO spots?? Ridiculous.
NO way I make that trade for RGIII. I would probably do it to move up to #1 for Luck. But then again it would probably take more to move up to #1.
Quote:
NO way I make that trade for RGIII. I would probably do it to move up to #1 for Luck. But then again it would probably take more to move up to #1.
Agreed on both counts.
Quote:
The system shouldn't be changed. BUT things should be added to take advantage of his athleticism (more shotgun, a little option, etc.)
The "System" is always being tweaked and modified to take advantage of what your players can do, what they do best and to exploit match ups. It isn't this rigid stagnant entity.
I think the point of the original comment is that if we take RGIII, there are a lot of things that he can do that McCoy cannot so we need to exploit those talents.
Quote:
Quote:
"Browns - 4 , 22 , 68 , 100" To move up TWO spots?? Ridiculous.
NO way I make that trade for RGIII. I would probably do it to move up to #1 for Luck. But then again it would probably take more to move up to #1.
That looks about right, maybe we keep #68 and have to forfeit a 2113 2nd round selection instead.
Just because I'm willing to take a gamble on a QB prospect at #4 doesn't mean I should be willing to give up more then he is worth.
That's flawed thinking.
It means that I am willing to gamble on the face value of that selection.
If I am trading up, then I am hedging my bets that I have better then 50/50 odds that said player will be "the guy".
If I am trading away picks to move up to grab said QB prospect and I am not overly confident that said player gives me better then 50/50 odds.
Then I'm stuck on stupid for making that trade.
I've just recently come around to taking RG3 at #4, but have NO interest in trading up for him...
By that logic, you might as well give up whatever the cost for Luck. Even I have my limits to trading for Luck now (#4, #22 OR 2013 #1, Plus 2-3 lower picks)
Do I expect Griffin to come out Cam Newton style and throw for 400 yards? Not really no, But I do think he could be a spark. And maybe, I dunno, we'll score more than 13 points a game...
RG3 at #4, Kendall Wright/Alshon Jefferies at #22, Resign Hillis, LaMichael James in the 3rd round, RT in the 2nd, offense is on it's way to being "fixed" IMO
Quote:
Quote:
Its still early in the draft process but at this point I do not trade up to get RG3, if hes there at 4 we take him but this team still has a lot of holes and 1st round picks are a valued commodity.
It's Official...I'm not gonna make it to the Draft...
Every time I see that comment it lights me on fire...
That is flawed thinking...
If we are willing to take Griffin at 4...That means we think he is FRANCHISE QUALITY...
When u think a QB is Franchise Quality u do everything u can to MAKE SURE U SECURE HIM...
The damn building CAN continue...Jeeeezezzzzz...
DinD this is my thinking as well.. if you are the front office and you are relatively sure Colt isn't the guy and you believe strongly that RGIII IS the guy, then go get him even if it costs you a couple picks.
The Lions drafted Harrington 3rd overall in 2002.. he wasn't the guy... they floundered, tinkering with other QBs while "trying to build the team" for 7 years (never winning more than 7 games) before drafting Stafford, who it looks like is the guy.. we have to find the guy and if we try and fail, then we have to try again. Would Calvin Johnson or Javid Best or Suh be close to play in the playoffs if Dan Orlovsky or Drew Stanton was their QB? No, they would not.
Quote:
I think the press for RGIII is because Luck is a foregone conclusion at 1. It's more fun for the media to speculate about who will trade up to #2 (if anyone) and how much they'll have to give up than to say "It's Thursday, and the Colts are still drafting Andrew Luck at #1."
LOL...and Generalissimo Francisco Franco is still dead.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
"Browns - 4 , 22 , 68 , 100" To move up TWO spots?? Ridiculous.
NO way I make that trade for RGIII. I would probably do it to move up to #1 for Luck. But then again it would probably take more to move up to #1.
That looks about right, maybe we keep #68 and have to forfeit a 2113 2nd round selection instead.
I would trade the entire 2113 draft for him.
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
"Browns - 4 , 22 , 68 , 100" To move up TWO spots?? Ridiculous.
NO way I make that trade for RGIII. I would probably do it to move up to #1 for Luck. But then again it would probably take more to move up to #1.
That looks about right, maybe we keep #68 and have to forfeit a 2113 2nd round selection instead.
I would trade the entire 2113 draft for him.
Mayock (who really cares) says RG3 is worth over-paying for and the supporters are coming out of the woodwork feeling vindicated!
Good luck with that.
I'm sure glad that H&H are making these decisions and not Mayock!
Thanks for doing this:
2007 - JaMarcus Russell - #1 pick Bust
2007 - Brady Quinn - Trade up to #23 Bust
2008 - Matt Ryan Probably good
2008 - Joe Flacco - Trade up to #18 Good
2009 - Matthew Stafford - #1 pick I like this kid,, but injury prone
2009 - Mark Sanchez - Trade up to #5 IMO,, will Bust
2009 - Josh Freeman - Trade up to #17 Too soon to call
2010 - Sam Bradford - #1 pick Probalby good, but so far ehh
2010 - Tim Tebow - Trade up to #25 Probably good
2011 - Cam Newton - #1 pick early to tell, but probably good
2011 - Jake Locker - Considered a reach at #8 Early not sure
2011 - Blaine Gabbert - Trade up to #10 not sure but too early
2011 - Christian Ponder - Considered a big reach at #12 Early but looks good
I'm not all that impressed with the results apparently...LOL
Quote:
I've just recently come around to taking RG3 at #4, but have NO interest in trading up for him...
osu...I can respect you viewpoint..especially the value you put on the Browns hard earned draft picks. I'm of the opinion that the Browns can't just give draft picks away like some suggest.
For me, the jury is still out...I have seen nothing in the RG video that convinces me he worthy of a #4 and #22 draft pick.
There are other options, better options, imo.
Matt Flynn is a better NFL QB today than RG...years ahead of him.
Jason Campbell knows the WCO and had his best two years as a pro running Jim Zorn's WCO, which came from Holmgren.
Donavan McNabb might be a good veteran QB, to help mentor McCoy or any young QBs. Wallace does not see himself as a mentor yet and I question his value to the team.
Ryan Tannehill has QB talents that RG does not, but he is inexperienced and will require some time to develop.
There are other intriguing prospects in this draft that might do well at the pro level, but all will require time to develop.
Other than Luck, there are no qb in this draft capable of stepping in and starting for the Browns this coming year. All will need time to be molded into a Pro QB.
I watched video of Colt McCoy today, when he was a senior at Texas...those who claim he can't throw the deep ball need to take a look at his senior year.
When McCoy was a rookie for the Browns he showed some of those same capabilities, but far less frequent than he did in college.
In Shurmur's offense, McCoy lost confidence in either himself, his receivers, his offensive line or all of the above. Looking at the video available on line makes it tough to know for sure what the issue might be because it does not show all the receivers running their routes, so we have no idea if there is anyone open deep.
I will say this..especially early in the year, the Browns offensive line gave up real estate so fast, by the time McCoy set up, the pass rush was on him, allowing at the most a dump off pass.
It might be that McCoy's fight/flight response kicked in so quickly due to the early Oline issues, that McCoy developed a habit of dumping the ball off too soon to save a sack.
I have confidence that this coaching staff will figure out what is going on with the Browns passing game and do a much better job of addressing all the needs and issues.
If the Oline needs some fixing...fix it.
If the WRs are not good enough, get some better WRs.
If it's McCoy, work with him and help him develop. Why is it important to coach up McCoy?...because, if the Browns draft a rookie, the rookie will not be starting, McCoy will be.
Now if the Browns go the FA direction, McCoy will have competition for job.
I trust this coaching staff to make the best decision for the franchise. They are going to be able to stand 5 yds behind RGIII,Tannehill and the rest of the QBs at the combine and evaluate them better than any of us can.
We are the amatures...Holmgren, Heckert, Shurmur, Chilly and Whipple are the Pros when it comes to knowing how to evaluate QB talent.
Quote:
Mayock (who really cares) says RG3 is worth over-paying for and the supporters are coming out of the woodwork feeling vindicated!
Good luck with that.
I'm sure glad that H&H are making these decisions and not Mayock!
Same here.
I like Mayock, but I don't think he would be so bold ... If he had to put his $ where his mouth is.
Cleveland Browns must out-bid Washington Redskins to trade up for pick to draft Robert Griffin III, says ESPN's Todd McShay
Published: Thursday, February 16, 2012, 8:56 PM Updated: Thursday, February 16, 2012, 9:11 PM
Mary Kay Cabot, The Plain Dealer By Mary Kay Cabot, The Plain Dealer
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- ESPN draft analyst Todd McShay thinks the Browns will have to win a bidding war with the Washington Redskins to trade up to No. 2 with the St. Louis Rams to select Baylor quarterback Robert Griffin III.
And if it were him, he wouldn’t hesitate to surrender the No. 4 and No. 22 picks to pull off the deal. The Redskins own the No. 6 and No. 39 overall picks.
“I would do it,” McShay said of the Browns trading their two first-round picks. “I wouldn’t do it for any other position, but I would do it for quarterback.”
McShay said the Heisman Trophy winner doesn’t have much to prove physically at the NFL Combine next week, but he must sell himself in interviews to the Browns and Redskins.
“I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t floor both of those teams with his intelligence and his understanding of the game,” McShay said. “I think it’s going to be a competition between the two to see who can get up there when it’s all said and done,” he said.
McShay ventured to say that if not for Stanford quarterback Andrew Luck — who’s expected to go No.1 to the Colts — Griffin would be competing for the top spot on the board.
“I think he’s every bit worth the [No. 2] pick,” McShay said. “I’ve got him as the third prospect overall in this class, and I think that if the Browns want him, they need to move up and get him. I’ll be surprised if he lasts until four, and I’ll be even surprised if he gets to No. 3 because I think that No. 2 pick is up for public auction. I think the
Rams are going to get a good deal to move back and can still get a player they want at tackle or wide receiver.
“And if it’s not Cleveland, then it’s probably going to be Washington [at No. 6] right behind them leapfrogging Cleveland to get up to No. 2.”
According to the NFL’s draft value chart, the Browns’ No. 4 and No. 22 picks would be almost equal to the value of the No. 2 pick, which is worth 2,600 points. The No. 4 is worth 1,800 and the No. 22 is worth 780 for a total of 2,580. Throw in a sixth-round pick worth about 20 points, and the Browns are right there.
The Redskins, on the other hand, total 2,110 points with their first two picks. The No. 6 pick is worth 1,600 and the No. 39 overall pick is worth 510. In order to top the Browns’ offer, they’d likely have to throw in a third-rounder this year or a second-rounder next year. But the Browns’ offer guarantees the Rams will still be able to get either Oklahoma State receiver Justin Blackmon or USC tackle Matt Kalil at No. 4.
“It may seem like you’re giving up too much, but I’d much rather nail it at the quarterback position than sit there at four, miss out on the quarterback, get [Alabama’s] Trent Richardson at running back, Michael Floyd or someone at receiver and still not have anyone to get them the football that you feel great about,” McShay said.
That’s not to say he thinks that Colt McCoy will never be a good starting quarterback in the NFL.
“I think we’ve seen enough flashes, but I think we’ve also seen teams adjust to his inability to consistently throw the ball down the field with velocity and accuracy,” he said. “Those were the concerns. That’s why he was a third-round pick coming out. Tom Brady was a sixth-round pick and is one of the greatest of all time, so you never really know, but there’s a reason that guys end up going where they go in terms of what they can do at the next level.
“I think with McCoy, we’ve kind of seen in the last couple of years that he has the intangibles — the toughness, the competitiveness, the ability to move and keep plays alive and accuracy underneath — but the limitations are there.”
Therefore, the Browns should grab the brass ring when they have the chance, McShay said.
“When you have an opportunity at the one position that just seems to change the franchise — it’s really the only correlation between all of the good teams is really good quarterback play,” he said. “There’s a reason the vast majority of teams drafting in the top 15 need a quarterback and the vast majority of the teams drafting in the bottom 15 don’t.”
McShay said he wasn’t that impressed with Griffin’s 2010 season. In fact, he had a third-round grade on him then and wasn’t sure he’d work out as a pro quarterback. But he saw the light in 2011.
“He really grew on me,” McShay said. “I got coach’s copy tape from this year and saw the improvement with his accuracy, with his anticipation, specifically with his accuracy down the field, too. I thought he showed a lot more touch and was able to drop the ball in and make accurate throws vertically. Can he still improve in that area? Of course he can. I think, sometimes, he’s got to learn to take a little bit of heat off his fastball and throw more catchable throws in the short to intermediate [range], but he has really made huge strides as a passer in terms of that accuracy, and it’s so important.”
What impressed McShay even more than Griffin’s world-class speed was his terrific arm and football acumen.
“You look at the athleticism, which is through the roof, his speed, which is exceptional, and it leads to a lot of potential big plays when he does decide to take off and run,” McShay said.
“But what I like about him is he is a true passer first, and he’s not an impatient guy that’s always looking to get outside the pocket. He will sit in there, he’ll hang tough, he can throw from a lot of different launch points, he can snap the ball off and has a strong arm and I love his mental makeup. He’s a leader, he’s tough and, most importantly, he’s smart. He picks things up quickly, and I haven’t found a person I’ve
talked to that says anything but great things about him in the classroom and understanding offensive concepts and just his natural intelligence.”
web page
Where have I seen this before.
1. Sign a stop gap QB
2. Wait until next draft
3. Repeat step 1 and 2
Quote:
That is flawed thinking...
If we are willing to take Griffin at 4...That means we think he is FRANCHISE QUALITY...
When u think a QB is Franchise Quality u do everything u can to MAKE SURE U SECURE HIM...
The damn building CAN continue...Jeeeezezzzzz...
So it's flawed that I don't want to give up another 1st round pick for a QB who has played most of his college ball from the spread, wasn't required to read defenses pre-snap and doesn't fit the mold of the QB our offense is being designed around. Don't get me wrong, there is a lot I like about Griffin but there are still questions about him as well.
If he's there at 4 I'd take him but we can add another starter with #22 be it a WR, OL, DL. If Griffin were taken at #2 by the Redskins I'd be perfectly fine with a Claiborne or Blackmon at #4 to go with another starter (CB, WR, OL, DL, LB) we can get at #22. Heck I'd even trade down if we could still nab Richardson and add more picks. Unlike past drafts Heckert seems to know what he's doing.
And if we should do whatever it takes to grab someone we think is a franchise QB then we should be trading our entire draft for Luck. He's the sure thing and the only person in this draft I would trade up from #4 to grab.
I am not a huge fan of claiborne.
He is very raw and was never a true playmaker for LSU.
Quote:
Where have I seen this before.
1. Sign a stop gap QB
2. Wait until next draft
3. Repeat step 1 and 2
candy...it makes perfect sense to me to continue building the supporting cast surrounding the QB, rather than spend our hard earned 4th and 22nd first round picks, on just one position, a QB, who is not likely to even start next season.
Haven't Browns fans learned, it takes a "team" of 11 players to win consistently...not just 1 player?
If the Browns feel Griffin is the guy, move up and never look back.
No doubt a unit is a team of 11. However, the one spot you have to have right is the QB.
Quote:
Thanks for doing this:
2007 - JaMarcus Russell - #1 pick Bust
2007 - Brady Quinn - Trade up to #23 Bust
2008 - Matt Ryan Probably good
2008 - Joe Flacco - Trade up to #18 Good
2009 - Matthew Stafford - #1 pick I like this kid,, but injury prone
2009 - Mark Sanchez - Trade up to #5 IMO,, will Bust
2009 - Josh Freeman - Trade up to #17 Too soon to call
2010 - Sam Bradford - #1 pick Probalby good, but so far ehh
2010 - Tim Tebow - Trade up to #25 Probably good
2011 - Cam Newton - #1 pick early to tell, but probably good
2011 - Jake Locker - Considered a reach at #8 Early not sure
2011 - Blaine Gabbert - Trade up to #10 not sure but too early
2011 - Christian Ponder - Considered a big reach at #12 Early but looks good
I'm not all that impressed with the results apparently...LOL
Take a look at what u just did...And I'd argue Sanchez was a reach also...And that Russell was a major reach...Davis has always loved that deep vertical threat and he fell in love with Russell's arm throwing 70 yards on his knees...Great way to determine the quality of a QB...lmao...
So...All the rest were either the #1 pick in said draft or 3 in Ryan's case...And every single one of them r FRANCHISE QUALITY and have had alot of success...And I'd venture to say that will continue...Bradford being the exception due missed time and OC change each year...
And guess what else...Those teams taking those QB's that high all sucked and had major holes all over the place...And they r continuing to build around that QB...Did they trade up for these QB's???...NO...The Browns r possibly looking to HAVE to move up to 2 and the first pick they will depart with is an EXTRA first rounder from previous trade...
Now look at the rest of those QB's...And you're right about the Lockers/Gabberts/Ponders...Way 2 soon to tell...BUT...All 3 r considered MAJOR reaches because of the position they play in a QB needy league...Lots of trading up for alot of those guys...
Again...Take a LONG look at that list and your comments...Because if we do this YOUR way...Passing on the opportunity to secure RGIII...Even burning the 22 pick in lieu of keeping all picks...Adding more by moving down...Building the team first...THIS is what you're looking at in the next 2 or 3 years when we r stuck on 8-8/9-7 and drafting in the 20 area...
Guys...We r in the perfect set up to go get a SOLID QB...It doesn't get any better than this other than having the #1 pick...We r going to tear Griffin apart for the next 9-10 weeks...And I'm POSITIVE that this FO is NOT sold on a 3rd round QB who is physically limited...It's obvious we aren't...I think we will LOVE what Luck and RGIII will bring to this team...And Griffin is there for the taking...GO GET HIM...
Talents like Luck and Griffin r not available outside the Top 5...If we wait we will be moving up in coming years for MUCH lesser talent at QB...Simply because we will be drafting outside the Top 15...And that vicious cycle u refer to about QB's in Cleveland will continue...If we use this full draft and NOT get Griffin...Coupled with FA moves...We r ALOT closer to 8-8/9-7 than many think...
I don't want to trade up for Griffin.. but at the end of the day.. lets just say we DO select him..
Do you think we'll go after some of the older vets? Randy Moss? Chad Ochocinco? Terrell Owens?
I know in the past Heckert has said he doesn't like guys already in the NFL w/ previous issues.. SO the chances are slim to none most likely.. but I like all 3 of those guys..
Moss has potential to cause the most drama. He only shuts up if things are going his way.. Owns is right behind him, but lately has been a lot more humble. Ocho has proved himself to be a good sport and keep quiet.
Actually, I think Randy Moss would be a terrific fit for RGIII.
And I think TO would be a terrific fit for the WCO. There aren't many receivers who have been better at YAC over the years than TO.
Thinking about it, it would be pretty awesome if we signed both TO and Randy Ratio and drafted a QB that could sling it.
J/C
I find it a bit ironic that some writers are saying how great it would be for the Rams to trade back to get more picks since they have holes to fill. Yet, at the same time, they say a team like the Browns - who also has holes to fill, should give up picks to get 1 player. I know the argument will be that the Rams have Bradford, but is he going to be a top NFL QB?
Quote:
I don't want to trade up for Griffin.. but at the end of the day.. lets just say we DO select him..
Do you think we'll go after some of the older vets? Randy Moss? Chad Ochocinco? Terrell Owens?
I know in the past Heckert has said he doesn't like guys already in the NFL w/ previous issues.. SO the chances are slim to none most likely.. but I like all 3 of those guys..
Moss has potential to cause the most drama. He only shuts up if things are going his way.. Owns is right behind him, but lately has been a lot more humble. Ocho has proved himself to be a good sport and keep quiet.
Not sure what Heckert thinks of Moss or Ocho,, but I bet given his experience with TO,, that would be a NO GO..
Quote:
Do you think we'll go after some of the older vets? Randy Moss? Chad Ochocinco? Terrell Owens?
Ochocinco has to prove that he can get his quickness back and get open before there's any chance we pick him up.
I also hear that he has issues with learning playbooks, and seeing as we run the WCO, which is based on structure, timing, and route running; I just don't see that going for him either.
Randy would have to show he's a shread of his former self also. His production in the NFL the last couple of years he played has been awful. And one year off just means one year older........
That's sort of the same case with TO, except TO has shown he could still play two years ago.
Still, after the Eagles had their issues with Owens, and I think you probably want a veteran QB with a strong.......will/personality (not so impressionable) to match Owens. So I think that would make Heckert hesitant
Plus Owens needs to show that he has't lost much physical ability due to A) The injury he faced and B) Another year of getting older
I just don't see it happening
Quote:
J/C
I find it a bit ironic that some writers are saying how great it would be for the Rams to trade back to get more picks since they have holes to fill. Yet, at the same time, they say a team like the Browns - who also has holes to fill, should give up picks to get 1 player. I know the argument will be that the Rams have Bradford, but is he going to be a top NFL QB?
You answered your question.
As for Bradford, everything points to him being a good qb.
Let's put it this way, i don't think many teams would turn him down if given the chance to get him, and I don't think many teams would give up on him at this point.
Of the 3, I think Moss is the one who might still have something in the tank.
Quote:
J/C
I find it a bit ironic that some writers are saying how great it would be for the Rams to trade back to get more picks since they have holes to fill. Yet, at the same time, they say a team like the Browns - who also has holes to fill, should give up picks to get 1 player. I know the argument will be that the Rams have Bradford, but is he going to be a top NFL QB?
honestly, it doesn't matter because they are locked into him as starting QB for probably the next 2 seasons due to his contract (last of the ridiculous #1 overall deals - thankfully we didn't get that one)
I bet if you lined up TO with all of our receivers today, he'd have more strength and speed than any of them. Maybe Carlton Mitchell beats him in a 40, but I wouldn't bet on it. The last guy to keep himself in shape like TO was Jerry Rice, who played in the NFL for 20 years.
Quote:
Do you think we'll go after some of the older vets? Randy Moss? Chad Ochocinco? Terrell Owens?
hot...if the Browns spend both first round draft picks on RG, there goes any chance to land Blackmon, Floyd (ND), Jeffery (SC), Wright (Baylor) or Sanu (Rutgers).
The Browns will be forced to turn to free agency and to engage in a bidding war to land any of the top FA WRs. As for the old retreads you mentioned...lord I hope we don't to go that low to get a WR.
Quote:
hot...if the Browns spend both first round draft picks on RG, there goes any chance to land Blackmon, Floyd (ND), Jeffery (SC), Wright (Baylor) or Sanu (Rutgers).
When I first read this, I thought "man, mac must really hate Lauvao."
I just worry about the knee surgery. Of all of them I like TO best. Maybe because he played his college ball here.
All I know is the Browns need to start signing some of these free agents. I have come to believe a poor team can't build through the draft alone. It just takes to long.
I don't think it possible to fill 10-12 holes in your roster over 3-4 drafts, and really, that's the window teams work with due to contract cycles. Teams change....even the good ones...just look at New England.
I look at all players more or less as "rental" players. Over time you keep some and lose some. Most of the good teams end up with 3-4- maybe 5 players on each side of the ball who become the core. You have to do something with the other 6-7-8 positions, and in that 4-5 year span you won't be able to fill all of those with drafted players. You have got to add some solid, proven players to keep you afloat.
jc..
Those of you who get into this draft strategy stuff, try to wrap your brain around this...found it yesterday while researching...enjoy. Anyone who understands this and can explain it in a paragraph or two..please do..thanks.
Robert Griffin III Pre-Draft Value and Game Theory
February 15, 2012
–Mike Lombardi on the B.S. report, transciption via B/R
The NFL draft is more or less a strategic game. It’s an important one, and the winner of it isn’t always rewarded with the best draft, because there are a lot of post-draft factors that determine the success of a class. And winning this game is relative anyway. Some battles are already won and lost on the day the players declare.
There are essentially just six players in the Robert Griffin game. There are the potential sellers: the Rams and Vikings, there are the potential buyers: the Redskins, Seahawks, and Dolphins, and you have the most important player, the Cleveland Browns, the only team in position to both buy and sell. The game could theoretically be expanded to include the Tampa Bay Bucs and the Washington Redskins as sellers, but then we’re getting into situations that have less than a 10% chance of occurring. I will stick to the most likely six players in this discussion, and treat the Redskins as either a buyer or a non-player.
Michael Lombardi is typically wired into the inner-workings of teams’ thinking with regard to the NFL draft, but I believe I can use game theory and a couple of reasonable assumptions to prove that he’s not accurate in the above quote, and then I will be proven right as things break down. I don’t think it is likely that Robert Griffin goes second overall after Andrew Luck goes first, but I think the Washington Redskins ultimately determine how able the Rams are to trade their pick. And the story on the Redskins is that they want Griffin and are looking to name their price, but aren’t going to overpay for the Heisman trophy winner.
And even though Mike Shanahan has a tendency to go-it-alone on football decisions, I think his evaluation of Griffin as clearly the second best QB in the draft, but in a normal year, should be available at the 6th pick, is a lot closer — I think — than Lombardi’s assertion that he’s only not going to go no. 1 because Luck is going to force him to go no. 2.
This is relevant to the St. Louis Rams. It makes sense for the Rams to begin with the assumption that everyone is going to trade up for RG3. There are four potential buyers who are more likely to want RG3 than the Rams (or Colts): Cleveland, Washington, Miami, and Seattle. Here’s the problem: Cleveland and Washington don’t really want to consider a trade up for RG3. They certainly have the ammo to pull it off, but they talk, and Washington and Cleveland are not going to compete with each other for RG3. Seattle remains an RG3 longshot because if you’re the Rams, you don’t really want to take a year where you “earned” the second overall pick, and end up not picking in the top ten. The Rams are going to fall in love with a player they want, and even though they could pick up mulitple first round picks to move out of the top ten, the value of the 2012 first rounder declines so much with that move it is almost not worth doing.
If Miami wins the coin toss and picks 8th overall, things get really interesting. I could see the Rams being willing to drop down six spots — thinking the draft might be deep enough to offer an elite talent at no. 8 (some are, most aren’t) — and pick up Miami’s first round pick next year plus multiple additional 2012 picks to do so, headlined by a third rounder. There are multiple problems with the Miami scenario: Miami is going to be very active in the FA market as well as the trade market in the weeks leading up to the draft, and if they make a splashy move such as signing Peyton Manning, they will need their first round picks the next two years a lot more than they need RG3.
To recap: for Miami to be a serious player for the second overall pick, a couple of things need to happen. Miami must fail to acquire a veteran who they feel would be a significant upgrade over Matt Moore in 2012. St. Louis must feel that the draft is so deep with elite talent, that picking at no. 8 (or 9) would be preferable to reaching for someone they like at no. 2. There is no doubt that St. Louis would much rather pick at no. 4 or no. 6. I do think it is likely that if Miami doesn’t end up getting into the RG3 mix, someone else like Seattle or a mystery team (Denver? Kansas City? Philadelphia? New Orleans?) would be interested. Let’s say Miami makes no acquisitions and that the end up being the third player in this game.
I’m not ruling out an aggressive move from the Seahawks, I just don’t think it’s likely. So if the Rams are certain to trade the second pick to a team to take RG3, as Lombardi suggests, either the Dolphins are going to need to get really desperate (which is probably more likely than them not getting desperate in free agency first — this is where understanding game theory comes in), or there needs to be a Cleveland-Washington competition for RG3.
But if free agency eliminates all teams but Washington and Cleveland for Griffin (Flynn to Seattle; Manning to Miami; Alex Smith and Mark Sanchez stay), I don’t see how Lombardi’s position looks likely.
Let’s assume that Lombardi is completely correct, and Cleveland and Washington have both been hiding plans to give up an entire draft to the Rams and get RG3. Well, now St. Louis opens the bidding at multiple first round picks plus a second and a third. Neither franchise wants to pay that price and it’s an easy bluff to call. Cleveland is (still hypothetically) willing to package both first round picks for RG3, and possibly throw in their third rounder. That is both 1) a higher price than the Redskins can or will match, and 2) still significantly overpaying the market. So Cleveland wins the bidding for Griffin. That means the Rams get that price for Griffin, right?
Well, sure, according to Lombardi. But unless Cleveland is wreckless, why would they overpay the market by so much? There are no other bidders at that price. The Rams cannot execute a trade if they don’t have any other offers.
If Cleveland holds out to not put the third rounder in, what collateral would they have that would allow them to hold the Rams hostage as the clock winds down? Well, they have this: the Vikings pick third, and Cleveland picks fourth. If Roger Goodell was to suddenly outlaw draft pick trading, there is a very high probability that Cleveland would be able to select Griffin at fourth overall. That is the mock draft consensus. And in actuality, that’s is the “true pre-draft” value, of Robert Griffin. Competition can drive that price up, but as we’ve seen, free agency is going to limit the price of competition.
Back to the Rams. Now let’s say Cleveland, knowing all of the above, is willing to fork over their two first rounders — no more — for RG3. The Rams have three strategic plays: accept Cleveland’s deal, decline Cleveland’s deal and use the draft pick, or decline Cleveland’s deal and trade the pick to someone else. Washington is probably willing to offer their first round pick next year (remember: the assumption is they really value the chance to pick RG3), but that by itself isn’t better than the price Cleveland will play. The Redskins can probably throw in an additional 2012 pick to go over the top of Cleveland. But ultimately, you’re looking at a couple versions of the same value for the pick, and declining Cleveland’s best offer to take someone else’s best offer is probably more spiteful than rational.
To be honest, if St. Louis can actually get both of Cleveland’s first round picks to move from second to fourth, I expect them to do it. It would make the current talk of two first rounders and two thirds (or a second and a third) seem like hot air, but it is. I just happen to think that two first rounders is a high water mark for what the second overall pick is worth to teams. There won’t be fierce competition for it, and like every trade up in recent memory, the buyer is going to be able to name their price.
The biggest problem from the Rams perspective is that all of the analysis above is predicated on acceptance of Lombardi’s assertion that teams are truly willing to get the no. 2 pick and spend it on Robert Griffin. If that’s not informed speculation, they have no actual trade offers for the second pick, and will just be using the pick on best available player.
The Minnesota Vikings are reportedly willing to trade the third overall pick, and that is incredibly problematic for the Rams. If Cleveland was willing to trade two firsts for the second overall pick, and the Vikings are willing to give the third pick to them for just a first and a second rounder (or maybe a first and a third), then all they have to do in order to ensure getting RG3 is to make sure that they always have best offer for the no. 2 pick, and that the Rams can’t do business with someone else, in this case the Redskins. They have a huge advantage there picking inside the top four. The Rams, obviously, want the 4th overall pick, but can’t afford to part with the second pick without being adequately compensated for their trade down. So the Rams want to do business with the Browns more than any other team.
But the Browns don’t want to actually trade anything of value to the Rams unless the Rams get a solid offer on the table that makes sense to them. Right now, they don’t have such an offer. And so the Browns, not the Rams, are in the driver’s seat on RG3. If the Browns make a trade with the Vikings after the Rams pick Justin Blackmon, Matt Kalil, or whoever, then they are on the clock to take Griffin. If they don’t trade, they are still the team best positioned to take Griffin. Mike Mayock said in a conference call today that the Rams should be “thrilled” to get a package of the 4th and 27th overall picks for the second pick, which means they are unlikely to receive that.
In fact, the more digging into the situation you do, the more you realize that the entire plan for the Rams and the Vikings to trade down is predicated on two things: the Washington Redskins being interested, and competition from a desperate team somewhere else in the draft. If one of those things doesn’t occur, then the highest Robert Griffin can go is 4th to either the Browns, or whoever the Browns select as their trading partner. It is, actually, very safe to pencil Robert Griffin in as the 4th overall pick in the 2012 draft, because if the Browns do not take him, they will likely trade the pick to someone who will. The Browns hold the key to who gets Robert Griffin (because the Browns hold all the cards and the first crack at him), but the Redskins are the team that determines how much the second and third picks are worth.
Lets do this exercise again with one assumption: let’s say that the Redskins have an identical grade on Robert Griffin and Ryan Tannehill, and therefore will give up nothing to go up from sixth overall, and would flip a coin to determine which to take at sixth. In this exercise, we don’t assume the Browns will take him at fourth overall, but we know that the Browns determine who will get him. This is just an example to show how the Redskins lack of interest would affect the value of picks 2 and 3 in this draft.
Without the Redskins, the ability to land two first round picks for pick no. 2 becomes something of a pipe dream for St. Louis. Just like the last scenario, enough desperation from Miami could create a scenario like the one suggested by Lombardi where Griffin is definitely going to go second overall, and then it is just about weighing the value of Cleveland’s offer against Miami’s, but that desperation was always possible. In the absence of a competitive trade offer from the Redskins, Cleveland’s pick at 4th remains the most viable landing spot for Griffin. And Cleveland can let the board come to them, knowing that if the get overbid, they conceded the price to another suitor.
But now, without Washington trying to position itself in front of Cleveland, the Vikings and Rams are in direct competition for the right to field offers to jump Cleveland. Without Washington involved, there is no reason for anyone but Cleveland to pay market rate to move up. If St. Louis is being unreasonable, you can try to acquire Minnesota’s pick. Or vice versa. If St. Louis bows out, and takes Blackmon, Cleveland is still going to get action on RG3 at the 4th pick. Minnesota might be able to leverage a cheap swap of picks and pick up a third or fourth rounder for their troubles, but with Washington out, it’s Cleveland’s show. A one team show.
There’s still a good chance Robert Griffin winds up with someone else besides Cleveland. It just means that teams that are going to jump Cleveland in order to get RG3 aren’t going to be able to do so on their own merits, because Cleveland can offer so much more. The fact that teams are already negotiating trade up terms relative to what Cleveland can offer means that since the cost of RG3 is roughly equal to what Cleveland is willing to pay for him, it’s more cost efficient to cut out the middle man and assume that with Griffin likely to slide out of the top two or three picks, the most direct trade you can make is to compensate the Browns for not having Griffin on their team. Essentially, the game theory suggests that whatever RG3 is worth to the Browns, teams will let the board come to them, and then any team can opt to pay the Browns THAT PRICE, and use the fourth overall pick on RG3.
The Browns hold all the cards anyway, and the Rams and Vikings have no choice but to involve the Redskins. Griffin is likely to be the 4th overall pick in the draft. It is anyone’s guess who will actually hand the card to Mr. Goodell with Griffin’s name on it. But we can establish even two months out that Griffin isn’t likely to go until fourth overall, and that any team willing to trade a first rounder to jump the Browns in the 2012 draft is probably willing to give that price to the Browns as a means to the same end.
web page
That article made my eyes cross, mac . . .
Here's yet another Mary Kay article . . .
Cleveland Browns must outbid Washington Redskins to trade up for pick to draft Robert Griffin III, says ESPN's Todd McShayFebruary 17, 2012
By Mary Kay Cabot, The Plain Dealer
CLEVELAND, Ohio -- ESPN draft analyst Todd McShay thinks the Browns will have to win a bidding war with the Washington Redskins to trade up to No. 2 with the St. Louis Rams to select Baylor quarterback Robert Griffin III.
And if it were him, he wouldn’t hesitate to surrender the No. 4 and No. 22 picks to pull off the deal. The Redskins own the No. 6 and No. 39 overall picks.
“I would do it,” McShay said of the Browns trading their two first-round picks. “I wouldn’t do it for any other position, but I would do it for quarterback.”
McShay said the Heisman Trophy winner doesn’t have much to prove physically at the NFL Combine next week, but he must sell himself in interviews to the Browns and Redskins.
“I’ll be surprised if he doesn’t floor both of those teams with his intelligence and his understanding of the game,” McShay said. “I think it’s going to be a competition between the two to see who can get up there when it’s all said and done,” he said.
McShay ventured to say that if not for Stanford quarterback Andrew Luck — who’s expected to go No.1 to the Colts — Griffin would be competing for the top spot on the board.
“I think he’s every bit worth the [No. 2] pick,” McShay said. “I’ve got him as the third prospect overall in this class, and I think that if the Browns want him, they need to move up and get him. I’ll be surprised if he lasts until four, and I’ll be even surprised if he gets to No. 3 because I think that No. 2 pick is up for public auction. I think the
Rams are going to get a good deal to move back and can still get a player they want at tackle or wide receiver.
“And if it’s not Cleveland, then it’s probably going to be Washington [at No. 6] right behind them leapfrogging Cleveland to get up to No. 2.”
According to the NFL’s draft value chart, the Browns’ No. 4 and No. 22 picks would be almost equal to the value of the No. 2 pick, which is worth 2,600 points. The No. 4 is worth 1,800 and the No. 22 is worth 780 for a total of 2,580. Throw in a sixth-round pick worth about 20 points, and the Browns are right there.
The Redskins, on the other hand, total 2,110 points with their first two picks. The No. 6 pick is worth 1,600 and the No. 39 overall pick is worth 510. In order to top the Browns’ offer, they’d likely have to throw in a third-rounder this year or a second-rounder next year. But the Browns’ offer guarantees the Rams will still be able to get either Oklahoma State receiver Justin Blackmon or USC tackle Matt Kalil at No. 4.
“It may seem like you’re giving up too much, but I’d much rather nail it at the quarterback position than sit there at four, miss out on the quarterback, get [Alabama’s] Trent Richardson at running back, Michael Floyd or someone at receiver and still not have anyone to get them the football that you feel great about,” McShay said.
That’s not to say he thinks that Colt McCoy will never be a good starting quarterback in the NFL.
“I think we’ve seen enough flashes, but I think we’ve also seen teams adjust to his inability to consistently throw the ball down the field with velocity and accuracy,” he said. “Those were the concerns. That’s why he was a third-round pick coming out. Tom Brady was a sixth-round pick and is one of the greatest of all time, so you never really know, but there’s a reason that guys end up going where they go in terms of what they can do at the next level.
“I think with McCoy, we’ve kind of seen in the last couple of years that he has the intangibles — the toughness, the competitiveness, the ability to move and keep plays alive and accuracy underneath — but the limitations are there.”
Therefore, the Browns should grab the brass ring when they have the chance, McShay said.
“When you have an opportunity at the one position that just seems to change the franchise — it’s really the only correlation between all of the good teams is really good quarterback play,” he said. “There’s a reason the vast majority of teams drafting in the top 15 need a quarterback and the vast majority of the teams drafting in the bottom 15 don’t.”
McShay said he wasn’t that impressed with Griffin’s 2010 season. In fact, he had a third-round grade on him then and wasn’t sure he’d work out as a pro quarterback. But he saw the light in 2011.
“He really grew on me,” McShay said. “I got coach’s copy tape from this year and saw the improvement with his accuracy, with his anticipation, specifically with his accuracy down the field, too. I thought he showed a lot more touch and was able to drop the ball in and make accurate throws vertically. Can he still improve in that area? Of course he can. I think, sometimes, he’s got to learn to take a little bit of heat off his fastball and throw more catchable throws in the short to intermediate [range], but he has really made huge strides as a passer in terms of that accuracy, and it’s so important.”
What impressed McShay even more than Griffin’s world-class speed was his terrific arm and football acumen.
“You look at the athleticism, which is through the roof, his speed, which is exceptional, and it leads to a lot of potential big plays when he does decide to take off and run,” McShay said.
“But what I like about him is he is a true passer first, and he’s not an impatient guy that’s always looking to get outside the pocket. He will sit in there, he’ll hang tough, he can throw from a lot of different launch points, he can snap the ball off and has a strong arm and I love his mental makeup. He’s a leader, he’s tough and, most importantly, he’s smart. He picks things up quickly, and I haven’t found a person I’ve talked to that says anything but great things about him in the classroom and understanding offensive concepts and just his natural intelligence.”
There's some sense and some hand waving in that article, but i like it!
Quote:
I think, sometimes, he’s got to learn to take a little bit of heat off his fastball and throw more catchable throws in the short to intermediate [range],
McShay is a turd. This quote tells me he wasn't even watching Griffin's games until the Bowl game. He started off that game trying to prove Heldawg wrong by rocketing everything. His MO all year was as much touch as possible on all routes. Then you have guys who watch him play for two quarters and say he has a weak arm.
When are McShay/Kiper right? They essentially have to make stuff up in order to have anything to write between the end of the NFL season and the draft. And we know that teams leak misinformation all the time anyways. Let's not forget that the same people (the media) saying that Cleveland needs RGIII and that he is our next franchise QB were also all on the Akili Smith bandwagon. If these guys were in any other industry, they would have been out of jobs long ago.
I couldnt go 4 and 22 for the guy. Sorry...
I had to laugh at a post by one natedawg under the Mary Kay article . . .
"Here's what McShay had to say about Jamarcus~
"I can't remember being in such awe of a quarterback in my decade of attending combines and pro days.
Russell's passing session was the most impressive of all the pro days I've been to. His footwork for such a big quarterback was surprising. He was nimble in his dropbacks, rolling out and throwing on the run. The ball just explodes out of his hands."
Russell had the physical talent for sure. He didn't have the mental talent to go with it.
In a nutshell teams won't try to outbid us because they can't. We will always have the better offer, so if there is no bidding, Griffin falls to 4 because the same rules apply to the Vikings pick as they did for the Rams pick.
Naturally this assumes those teams don't take Griffin, which doesn't make any sense since they both just drafted a QB high in round 1.
It makes sense. If the Skins want Griffin, offer us a pick and switch when it is our turn to pick.
Quote:
Mayock (who really cares) says RG3 is worth over-paying for and the supporters are coming out of the woodwork feeling vindicated!
Good luck with that.
I'm sure glad that H&H are making these decisions and not Mayock!
Not sure if you actually meant that towards me or not, but I do not advocate overpaying for anyone in a draft.
I was just poking a little fun at someone's typo that suggested we may have to give up a pick in a draft that is 100 years down the road.
Mac - Stopped reading about 2/3 thru the article. In short, teams that want RGIII will look to trade up but are not willing to overpay. The Rams are looking to trade down but want to fleece whichever teams trades with them without dropping too far down.
If there is an overlap in acceptable pay then there will be a trade if there isn't then no trade and and RGIII falls
Quote:
In a nutshell teams won't try to outbid us because they can't. We will always have the better offer, so if there is no bidding, Griffin falls to 4 because the same rules apply to the Vikings pick as they did for the Rams pick.
Naturally this assumes those teams don't take Griffin, which doesn't make any sense since they both just drafted a QB high in round 1.
It makes sense. If the Skins want Griffin, offer us a pick and switch when it is our turn to pick.
I could see us going 1st (4) and 2nd round picks ...... because that would still give the Rams one of the players they covet, and still give them an extra premium pick this year.
It's still really, really early though. Until we know who goes where in free agency, (or even trades for that matter) it's impossible to say for sure. I do think that it increases the chances that a team like Washington or Miami gets into early free agent bidding that takes them out of the draft market altogether.
And here's 2 pro & con articles from Bleacher Report . . .
2012 NFL Draft: 4 Reasons Robert Griffin III Is Wrong for Cleveland Browns The Cleveland Browns 2012 NFL draft speculative universe currently is divided amongst those who think that the team should pick Robert Griffin III in the draft, and everyone else.
That quarterback from Baylor, as I like to refer to him, in an attempt to downplay the current belief that he is the quarterbacking fantasy of every Cleveland fans' dreams, is currently an on paper potent commodity, generating endless interest and speculative inquiries leading up to his April 26 IPO.
However, here are four reasons why it would be a mistake to select him in this year's draft.
The consensus amongst the prognosticators in the pre-draft aggregation is that the Browns would not be able to obtain "that quarterback from Baylor," simply via their ownership of the first round fourth pick. Rather, they would have to initiate a draft-day trade.
For a team that finished near the bottom of the league in every offensive category, surely one unproven play-caller will not be the catalyst that spurns average parts towards sudden above-average performance. The question then becomes, is a team which has a dire need for improvement at various offensive positions willing to cash in more than one chip, for the supposed big chip?
If there is one position that is historically hyped beyond recognition, it is quarterback. And we are all history majors when it comes to draft day busts at the position. From the Ryan Leafs and Todd Marinovichs of the world to Cleveland's own first-round first-overall pick in the 1999 draft, Tim Couch, there is plenty of historical evidence to suggest that the proclamations of the QB from Baylor's messianic qualities are simply that—unsubstantiated proclamations.
There is more to be gained from utilizing two first-round top-25 picks and potentially improving two offensive positions than from losing an additional pick in the round to score one player who has yet to take an NFL snap.
Of course, every player drafted this coming spring is a bust till they prove otherwise; however, why not level the potential for big-time or bust players, by drafting in volume?
There is no doubt that the quarterback from Baylor has all the intangible facets by which fans, scouts and front offices measure a player whom they think to be potentially worthy of the franchise player label.
He has all the hardware, highlights and statistics that comprise a player who could potentially be labeled as the coming savior of any team looking for a reason to justify renewed faith, which surely the Browns have been for sometime now.
He is even the kind of player whom many believe, specifically NFL Network draft analyst Mike Mayock, should possess veto rights over the kind of offense that he will inherit once drafted. Of teams such as Carolina, Cincinnati and Minnesota, with their respective quarterbacks, Mayock stated:
“They adapted some of their offenses to suit what the rookie quarterbacks did best. Look at Cam Newton, look at Andy Dalton, look at Ponder. They gave those kids chances to make plays and get comfortable. [Griffin] is too explosive and too much of a playmaker to sit there and have him read the triangle that the West Coast offense is.”
Of course, Browns fans can read into that last line and it's relevance to Cleveland's own use of the west coast offense at their discretion or lack thereof. However, even if the Baylor quarterback was to somehow land in the laps of the Browns, and, even if his impact was immediate, the teams' deficiencies far outweigh the accomplishments of any single individual.
The mere fact that so much intense speculation has already made it's way through the conversational campfire only supports the idea that this draft is a grand opportunity to address many holes, not just potentially putty patching up the one.
If the team's approach come draft day is to trade in all the marbles for supposedly the shiniest one of the bunch, will this not simply replicate the situation of this past year?
By way of sending another quarterback who may or may not prove to be an effective leader, given a legitimate supporting cast, out onto the field with what could only be described as the stand-ins for a legitimate supporting cast.
Media manipulation is far reaching and a mechanism that, through redundancies and volume of verbiage, urges that what can make an individual, team or even a city better is the only option worth pursuing.
The Baylor quarterback's name is surely the first on the list of potential draftees in the minds of those within the organization and legion of fans. This is not coincidental when a player is somehow aligned with the convergence of an entire team and city towards emergence and long-sought respect.
Even a month prior to this article, the supposed savant of NFL draft predicting, last name Kiper, first name Mel, made no qualms in his assurances towards the Browns draft day destiny when asked if he thought the team would draft that Baylor kid:
"I think they've pretty much resolved themselves to the fact they're going to go that route. They're probably going to kick Colt McCoy to the curb. That's what happens to a lot of young quarterbacks that don't have great physical qualifications."
These not entirely astute analyses from supposedly shrewd or in-the-know manipulators of media will only intensify in the weeks, days and minutes prior to April 26. And they will play prominently in the minds from the front office down to the fans sitting on the front of their couches.
Surely we, as Cleveland fans, should be wary of being sold on a player's potential to be the pot of gold that will make the city a rich and respected sports town once more. Our recent sports past informs us well against such flights of fantasy.
As much as there are those who are for taking the Baylor kid and then everyone else, the same line of reasoning or lack thereof, applies to whether or not Colt McCoy should be replaced.
The thought merchants differentiate themselves on the contentious possibility of whether McCoy is a talented quarterback on a talent-deficient team, or a non-talented quarterback, being given the benefit of the doubt because he has not been allotted much surrounding talent.
What is inarguable is that McCoy was surrounded by a less-than-efficient group on offense, making it easy for his weaknesses to be exposed under the strain.
The problem is that if Cleveland drafts the third Robert Griffin, not only will they not answer the question of what McCoy's "true" abilities could be, but they put the 2011 Heisman Trophy winner in the same spot if they are unable to gather any meaningful pieces following his selection.
Why not give McCoy no excuses by utilizing 2012 picks towards building some legitimate pieces around him and then allow the masses to truly judge his NFL worthiness?
Cleveland Browns: Why Trade Up for RG3? Because He's Worth Your Admission Cleveland Browns fans have heard all the RG3/Michael Vick comparisons.
Are we really enamored by this comparison? Not really. Definitely not enough to back the team if they were to decide to trade up for him.
Remember that the quarterback who’s all but a lock to go ahead of Griffin (Andrew Luck) is widely regarded as the best quarterback prospect since Peyton Manning. He’s the guy we want. That’s the comparison we like—Manning not Vick.
Vick is an undersized, inconsistent quarterback with durability issues and no Super Bowl rings. The year he just had quarterbacking the "Dream Team" doesn’t sit too well with us either.
So yeah, all of these comparison’s of RG3 to Vick aren’t all that inspiring to the "common Cleveland folk."
It’s the Peyton Mannings and the Tom Bradys we want, they’re the type that win you Super Bowls, right? They’re the pocket passers that this league is founded on, right?
Fair point. There’s only one problem with that. Cleveland Browns fans aren’t exactly in the position to be setting their sights on a Super Bowl. At least not one that would happen anytime soon.
For that reason, I’m fine with trading up for the player whose game most resembles Vick. Actually, I’m all for it.
I’ll be the first to say I’ve never been the biggest Vick fan, even before learning of his dog days. Despite that, I remember when Vick first entered the league and took it by storm.
He was a sensation. A marketing phenomena. Bo Jackson-esque. The most electrifying, titillating quarterback in all of football. You wanted to watch Vick. You wanted to see him live. You wanted to play as him on Madden. You wanted him on your fantasy team. Michael Vick was a huge deal.
You can’t accurately quantify “The Michael Vick Experience” as far as its correlation to the success of Vick and the Falcons. But I can assure you that it did wonders for a franchise with a not so glorious history of winning. I mean it had to, right?
Well, at this hour RG3 looks like he could very well be a better version of Vick. Keeping in mind that Griffin appears to have the character edge over Vick, and probably won’t be committing federal crimes on innocent pooches anytime soon. Wouldn’t you welcome the “The RG3 Show” in Cleveland?
Wherever Griffin ends up going, it’s very likely they’ll be treated like NFL Royalty.
Griffin is projected to go No. 2 overall in a draft class that contains the likes of Matt Kalil, Justin Blackmon, Trent Richardson and Morris Claiborne—some of the safest future all-pro locks we’ve ever seen grouped together in one draft class.
It’s also a draft that happens to be deep with quarterbacks. Despite this, we’re infatuated with an undersized QB who comes from a spread system. Huh?
Yes we are, and the ‘infatuation‘ part of that is the reason he’s worth a trade up by the Cleveland Browns.
The NFL Draft has become a giant marketing platform. That’s how much attention this draft thing receives these days, and that’s how ridiculously popular the league is.
Because of where Griffin stands on big boards and mock drafts, and because he is an athletic specimen who looks like he came from a lab, he’s already been talked up to the point where he is going to be a 'big deal.’
A really, really, big deal.
We don’t see quarterbacks like Griffin at the top of wish lists very often. That’s because we flat out don’t see players like him every day.
Nevertheless, Griffin is up there, and he will be an enticing NFL quarterback who will be much talked about in 2012. Miraculously, the Cleveland Browns are in a prime position to trade up and make him their own.
I don’t want to trade up, you don’t want to trade up, none of us do. But when’s the next time an opportunity like this will present itself?
I don’t know whether Griffin will be a bust, a Pro Bowler, or just a mediocre starter. None of us do. The only thing we know for sure is that when he makes his first NFL appearance behind center, he will be a galvanizing enigma in this league.
In other words, when the 2012 NFL season kicks off, everyone is going to be interested in watching to see what Robert Griffin III does. And I’m not just talking about the team that drafts him, I’m talking the entirety of the NFL community.
That’s something the Cleveland Browns should take note of. Why? Because the Browns have never had that kind of exposure and attention surrounding their team. Never.
Griffin might not ever be as good as Andrew Luck or Michael Vick, but his unique and incredibly athletic skill set actually make him one of the safer quarterback prospects to come out in some time.
That’s the power of an enigma quarterback with blazing speed and a cannon arm. Metaphorically speaking, he’s worth the price of admission. The Browns could really use a “worth the price of admission” guy. Josh Cribbs just isn’t cutting it the way he used to.
Griffin has no experience in a pro-style offense under center. However, consider that, of all the quarterbacks who operated in the spread during college, only two have attained what you would call “elite success” in the NFL.
Those two are Michael Vick and Cam Newton. Probably two of the most athletically gifted quarterbacks we’ve seen in the past twenty years, if not ever. Last year Newton was actually a very risky pick because up until that point it was Vick on an island alone.
Griffin is arguably more gifted than either of the two. It’s why some are suggesting the Colts pass on Luck and take him instead.
Ideally, you want a quarterback who operates from the pocket. Everyone knows that. There are certain times, though, when exceptions are made. Griffin is one of those exceptions, as Newton was before him.
That’s why scouts have basically thrown out the book of quarterback standards when it comes to rating him. He’s past that threshold. His ability (primarily his speed), is great enough to the point where he can “cut corners” in the NFL. Meaning, Griffin can have instant success as a unpolished, raw NFL quarterback.
If you haven’t had a chance to watch RG3, you can use that basis alone to get a pretty good idea as to how special a player he is.
Can the Browns win a Super Bowl with that type of quarterback? No idea. I do know this though...
A fan base such as the Browns, one that’s been deprived of excitement for so long, could use an electrifying guy like Griffin. I’m talking purely from a morale boosting standpoint, not a “getting us to the promised land” standpoint.
On top of that, the younger generation of Browns fans—the ones who are on the verge of extinction because they’ve never seen the Browns as anything but laughable losers in their lifetime—surely need a guy like Griffin.
At the very least to help get them from point A to point B—to give them a reason to forego their planned forfeiture of their Browns fanhood.
After all, every 12 minutes, a child is born into a Browns household only to grow up rooting for another team. That really needs to change. Thankfully RG3 is the guy capable of doing just that.
We’ve got two more months to dissect Griffin. Until then here’s all you really need to know about regarding RG3's prospectus as a Cleveland Brown...
If they choose to nab him, Browns’ fans’ are going to want to make a point of watching this team each and every Sunday. He’s going to give the fan base, as well as the entire city, some mad, mad hope. The franchise is going to get an immediate jump in dollar value and vested interest. He’s going to draw national attention, maybe even warrant some nationally televised games (we love those).
The point I’m trying to make isn’t that Robert Griffin III is the guy who will get us to where we want to be (Like I mentioned, it’s a guess as to what he’ll do at the next level). The point is that he will make the Cleveland Browns a buzz worthy team entering the 2012 NFL season. He will immediately make the Browns relevant. Aside from the build-up entering the 2008 season, that’s never really been the case for this team, as of late.
For Browns fans, that’s what you call a moral victory. It’s the benefit of investing a high pick on a quarterback. They truly can breath new life into a franchise. Brady Quinn (bench in 2007) and Tim Couch (new expansion team) didn’t come with that.
I wish these writers had the balls to speak their minds without trying to preserve their likeability.
If you like Mccoy and think he's the right guy, you do NOT trade two freakin first round picks for an UNPROVEN rookie.
So let's stop pretending the writer likes Mccoy. He doesn't think he's good enough, and I think Mayock is a coward for being afraid to speak his mind.
I would love to see Griffin as my QB. But if its my call I'm not trading up to get him. He isn't perfect. He's undersized and will be missing far too many games for my taste. He's going to parallel the career of Vick because he doesn't have the instincts to avoid taking big hits.
Quote:
Quote:
Where have I seen this before.
1. Sign a stop gap QB
2. Wait until next draft
3. Repeat step 1 and 2
candy...it makes perfect sense to me to continue building the supporting cast surrounding the QB, rather than spend our hard earned 4th and 22nd first round picks, on just one position, a QB, who is not likely to even start next season.
Haven't Browns fans learned, it takes a "team" of 11 players to win consistently...not just 1 player?
When are we ever going to learn you don't pass on a franchise QB period? Stop trying to build like the Ravens and Steelers. Build a team that will win superbowl(s). The ravens screwed around trying to build a team first and waisted 10 years of Ray Lewis and Ed Reed because they never had a franchise QB.
I thought this was incredibly on point....
Quote:
The thought merchants differentiate themselves on the contentious possibility of whether McCoy is a talented quarterback on a talent-deficient team, or a non-talented quarterback, being given the benefit of the doubt because he has not been allotted much surrounding talent.
What is inarguable is that McCoy was surrounded by a less-than-efficient group on offense, making it easy for his weaknesses to be exposed under the strain.
The problem is that if Cleveland drafts the third Robert Griffin, not only will they not answer the question of what McCoy's "true" abilities could be, but they put the 2011 Heisman Trophy winner in the same spot if they are unable to gather any meaningful pieces following his selection.
Why not give McCoy no excuses by utilizing 2012 picks towards building some legitimate pieces around him and then allow the masses to truly judge his NFL worthiness?
Is this the same Mike Mayock that said to get Gabbert before Newton last year? hmmmm. Thanks Mike but we will do our own evaluations of players and I highly doubt the Browns or Heckert put any weight into what guys like Kiper or Mayock think..Thank God or Brady Quinn would have been a top 5 pick..ughh.
RG3 is one of the most exciting prospects I have seen in a very long time but I have yet to see FRANCHISE QUARTERBACK out of him. He does not have NFL size and takes more devastating hits than Tebow did without the body to endure it. He has nimble quick feet but horrible footwork. His mechanics are all over the place. He also comes from a system that produces big numbers and big busts at QB.
I would take RG3 at 22 because to me he would be worth the risk at that point, just like Colt was worth the 3rd risk, but I am simply not prepared to take him at 4 and would never consider trading up for someone with that number of flaws.
Quote:
Is this the same Mike Mayock that said to get Gabbert before Newton last year? hmmmm. Thanks Mike but we will do our own evaluations of players and I highly doubt the Browns or Heckert put any weight into what guys like Kiper or Mayock think..Thank God or Brady Quinn would have been a top 5 pick..ughh.
Ha, That's funny.. I didn't remember, but did Mayock really put Gabbert ahead of Newton? wow.. But hey,, hindsight ya know..
I know at one time Cam was his 3rd QB heading into the draft but i cant remember who the other QB was.
Quote:
Quote:
Is this the same Mike Mayock that said to get Gabbert before Newton last year? hmmmm. Thanks Mike but we will do our own evaluations of players and I highly doubt the Browns or Heckert put any weight into what guys like Kiper or Mayock think..Thank God or Brady Quinn would have been a top 5 pick..ughh.
Ha, That's funny.. I didn't remember, but did Mayock really put Gabbert ahead of Newton? wow.. But hey,, hindsight ya know..
Yeah, if I remember right he made a big ordeal about his dedication too. Mayock and Kiper make me laugh. The look on Kipers face is priceless during the draft. I think he believes that teams should listen to him...like I said the Brady Quinn Fiasco and the look on his face and the way he starts defending himself is hilarious.
If we listened to guys like Kiper and Mayock the league would be filled with elite future NFL signal callers like Rick Mirer, Heath Shuler, Trent Dilfer, Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, and Akili Smith, Brady Quinn.
Quote:
If we listened to guys like Kiper and Mayock the league would be filled with elite future NFL signal callers like Rick Mirer, Heath Shuler, Trent Dilfer, Ryan Leaf, Joey Harrington, and Akili Smith, Brady Quinn.
LOL One of the biggest reasons I find the trade up scenario so scary is the thought that "what if'' we bet on a bust?
Then you got two problems. 1. you blew it on the player picked and 2. you killed your team for a couple of years because you used up a ton of picks to get him.
If HHS take that bet and throw picks to move up to get RG3, they better be right.
I wouldn't have a problem with taking him at 4 if he fell to me there.
And to those that don't understand that thinking,, think about it this way.
if he falls to you at 4, and you take him and he busts,, what have you spent... Only that draft Pick.. That's it (and money of course, but you'd spend that on whatever player you drafted anyway)
If you trade your 4th, 22nd and two or 3 other picks (which may include some from next season) you have wasted your first pick, and anywhere from 3 to 5 more.
1 pick vs 3 to 5 high picks... That's the reason to take him if he falls to you but not to jump up and grab him.
but hey,, if that's what they want to do, they sure as hell better be right.
well, to be fair, they seemed to like Cam the player. They were all worried about a guy who was stealing laptops and getting kicked out of Florida and then had a pretty big scandal as to whether or not that he knew his Dad's church was getting paid for his recruitment to Auburn/MissSt.
it was the character red flags that had them worrying. coming off the recent heels of Michael Vick and Reggie Bush, there is reason to worry there (and there still could be)
The truth is these guys have no clue just like the rest of us. I have a feeling a lot of this hype and praise for Griffin is partly spurred due to them getting burned on Cam Newton in his first year. Had Newton busted or looked like doodoo, I bet Griffin would be rated out of the first round. That plus the perception that Mayock was being "racist", so he can play make up this year. JMO
i doubt he'd be rated out of the 1st round, but you might be right on the inflated value (I just don't see how Tannehill would be rated above him based on what they did against the same defenses and how they both look doing it).
that said, they are completely different QBs as RGIII isn't going to get those goalline and 3rd/short carries.
after the first4 weeks, Cam went over 300yds 0 times (defensive adjustment!)
Cam had 9 games under 250yds
Cam had 4 games under 200yds
Cam had 3 games under 160yds
Cam did have more TDs than INTs in 8 games vs. more INTs than TDs in 4 games (other 4 equal)
But, without 3 of those first 4 weeks, Cam had pretty much an expected year for a possible promising but flawed rookie QB passing the ball. The fact that he was also running the ball is why he was able to keep his status as a pro-bowl QB too.
Quote:
The truth is these guys have no clue just like the rest of us. I have a feeling a lot of this hype and praise for Griffin is partly spurred due to them getting burned on Cam Newton in his first year. Had Newton busted or looked like doodoo, I bet Griffin would be rated out of the first round. That plus the perception that Mayock was being "racist", so he can play make up this year. JMO
But they're saying the same things about him now as what I was saying about him while i was watching his games during the season. Does that make me racist? How would we have the same things to say?
Quote:
1 pick vs 3 to 5 high picks... That's the reason to take him if he falls to you but not to jump up and grab him.
If you're talking about RG3, I don't think things have to be so black and white.
I'm hoping, that if we trade up to get him, we got 2 picks to 1.
And I'm stuck wondering what I value more, our 2nd and 3rd verses our 1B pick.
If the FO is sold on RG3 as a likely franchise QB and that much more talented than Colt, I'm good to trade up, but 3-5 picks is a lot.
I doubt that's what we'd have to give up for him.
St. Louis isn't the only team looking to trade down, so is the Vikings. I wonder if that'll come into play. Assuming it's us and Wash giving trade up offers, we'll both probably be discussing with Minnesota as well (if we can make it happen cheaper)
Quote:
The point is that he will make the Cleveland Browns a buzz worthy team entering the 2012 NFL season.
The Cleveland Browns were a buzz worthy team entering the 2008 season.
Quote:
In a nutshell teams won't try to outbid us because they can't. We will always have the better offer, so if there is no bidding, Griffin falls to 4 because the same rules apply to the Vikings pick as they did for the Rams pick.
Naturally this assumes those teams don't take Griffin, which doesn't make any sense since they both just drafted a QB high in round 1.
It makes sense. If the Skins want Griffin, offer us a pick and switch when it is our turn to pick.
I have been trying to explain that we hold the ammo to trump any 'reasonably' offer for a trade for the 2nd or 3rd selection for weeks now.
We have the option to still trump any overvalued trade offer as well, however I think in that case we 'would' concede the trade to that suitor.
I like our position to either get Griffen at 4 or trade down with the Redskins receiving their 2nd round selection this year to start or deal with Miami at #8 or #9 and their 2nd round selection this year.
In either of those scenarios we could have a choice of Tannehill, Richardson or Reiff and possibly Blackmon (I don't anticipate him to fall past Jacksonville at #7).
I guess it all depends on weather we want to target Griffen or another, but the other might be an option to also add another high 2nd round selection in addition to having 2 first round picks.
We could end up with 4 selections in the top 40 picks and still come away with Tannehill at QB to develop and if and when he is ready to compete for the job and possible un-seating McCoy moving McCoy to either the trading block or our backup QB ... Right back full circle to where most hoped for or projected with that 3rd round selection.
Quote:
Quote:
1 pick vs 3 to 5 high picks... That's the reason to take him if he falls to you but not to jump up and grab him.
If you're talking about RG3, I don't think things have to be so black and white.
I'm hoping, that if we trade up to get him, we got 2 picks to 1.
And I'm stuck wondering what I value more, our 2nd and 3rd verses our 1B pick.
If the FO is sold on RG3 as a likely franchise QB and that much more talented than Colt, I'm good to trade up, but 3-5 picks is a lot.
I doubt that's what we'd have to give up for him.
St. Louis isn't the only team looking to trade down, so is the Vikings. I wonder if that'll come into play. Assuming it's us and Wash giving trade up offers, we'll both probably be discussing with Minnesota as well (if we can make it happen cheaper)
I pretty much think it's black or white no matter the player. if you gotta give up all your picks in the first three rounds to move up two spots, that guy (whoever it is) had better work out or you've set your franchise back a few years.
And given our position in terms of the number of talented players currently on the team, that could end up killing us for 4 or 5 years. it literally could take that long.
we need so much right now.. WR, RB, some additional Oline, at least one stud on the Dline, LBers, another safety and another CB.
And in 4 years, how old will Joe Thomas be.. that could be another hole to fill. What about TE? by then we will probably need a new one. Mack will be fine for that period of time, but how far beyond that I don't know.
What's funny about that, even if we go up and get RG3 and he looks good, we still don't have the resources to go out and get more from the draft.
of course, that doesn't stop us from filling the holes in Free Agency.. but that doesn't sound like something HH wants to do..they may have to.
Apparently more people agree with me than the other way. the plain dealer is running a poll. Link below
Quote:
Yes: Finding an answer at the QB position is worth two first-rounders 26.92% (776 votes)
No: Browns have too many needs and should fill two of them, not one 73.08% (2,107 votes)
Total Votes: 2,883
http://www.cleveland.com/ohio-sports-blog/index.ssf/2012/02/expect_cleveland_browns_dqwell.html
Quote:
I pretty much think it's black or white no matter the player. if you gotta give up all your picks in the first three rounds to move up two spots, that guy (whoever it is) had better work out or you've set your franchise back a few years.
I absolutely agree. Only guy I'd do that for is Andrew Luck, and that's only if the FO is convinced he's as good as the talking heads say he is.
But if we like RG3 a lot, I wouldn't mind giving up a second 1st round pick for him. This would also be on the basis having low confidence in Colt McCoy improving. A lot of people on here don't think Colt can become a good QB, where as I'm really not willing to give up on him yet. I've seen guys improve their deep ball, and I've seen players improve their passing ability over the course of their careers. I like a lot of what Colt brings to the table, he's definitely someone you like to root for
Quote:
Apparently more people agree with me than the other way. the plain dealer is running a poll. Link below
The one flaw I see in these kind of polls is that everyone voting has an idea as to what they want the Browns to do. There's the crowd that wants us to get Matt Flynn, they'll be against it. There's the crowd that wants us to stick with Colt McCoy, they'll have their opinion. There's the crowd that wants Tannehill, they'll have their opinion. There's the crowd that wants Andrew Luck, the crowd that wants RG3, the crowd that wants Jason Campbell, and the crowd that wants some developmental QB. Some people want a mixture of these.
But I think that all plays a part in the poll because people see it almost as a direct question of "Do you want to get RG3?"
People are voting on what they want the Browns to do. This might even be the highest majority that you're going to get since it's an issue with more than two options.
They should make another poll "Should the Browns try to pick up Matt Flynn in FA?" and you'll see that the people in favor of it will be below those against it. Same with every option..............
Quote:
I absolutely agree. Only guy I'd do that for is Andrew Luck, and that's only if the FO is convinced he's as good as the talking heads say he is.
As good as Luck is supposed to be, the same rule applies to him as well. if we give up 4 picks to move up 2 or 3 spots in the draft, he better work out or we've sunk the ship for a few years..
As for the poll, ahh, they aren't very scientific. they don't always take enough into consideration. But as a straight up question, spend the picks to move up or not,, it's pretty clear, most that took the poll say, stand pat, don't trade up to get another "maybe"
Quote:
Thanks for doing this:
2007 - JaMarcus Russell - #1 pick Bust The Raiders were awful
2007 - Brady Quinn - Trade up to #23 Bust The Browns were awful
2008 - Matt Ryan Probably good The Falcons have talent
2008 - Joe Flacco - Trade up to #18 Good The Ravens have talent
2009 - Matthew Stafford - #1 pick I like this kid,, but injury prone The Lions have talent
2009 - Mark Sanchez - Trade up to #5 IMO,, will Bust The Jets don't have much on offense
2009 - Josh Freeman - Trade up to #17 Too soon to call The Bucs have a little talent
2010 - Sam Bradford - #1 pick Probalby good, but so far ehh The Rams have some talent but were really depleted this year with injuries
2010 - Tim Tebow - Trade up to #25 Probably good The Broncos have a great coach and a great defense
2011 - Cam Newton - #1 pick early to tell, but probably good
2011 - Jake Locker - Considered a reach at #8 Early not sure
2011 - Blaine Gabbert - Trade up to #10 not sure but too early
2011 - Christian Ponder - Considered a big reach at #12 Early but looks good
I'm not all that impressed with the results apparently...LOL
Wow look, all of the QBs that you think are decent or have a future went to teams that either had talent or have added talent since the QB was drafted.. odd how that works. Which is why I didn't rate the rookies, those teams still have a year or two to add talent before a better evaluation can be made but most of them went to teams which were thin..
Quote:
When are we ever going to learn you don't pass on a franchise QB period? Stop trying to build like the Ravens and Steelers. Build a team that will win superbowl(s). The ravens screwed around trying to build a team first and waisted 10 years of Ray Lewis and Ed Reed because they never had a franchise QB.
candy...the Browns have attempted to draft their franchise QB twice since 99...without the necessary supporting cast around those QBs to increase their chances of being successful in the NFL.
What some seem to be missing, this is a team rebuilding via the draft and if we drop down two first round picks...#4 and #22 for Griffin, it comes at a cost of stunting the rebuild program.
I posted it before, if the Browns trade #4 and #22 for Griffin, there goes any chance to land an elite WR such as Blackmon, Floyd or Jefferies or even one of the better late first round picks such as Kendall Wright or Sanu.
So we have our inexperienced rookie QB who is not likely to even start this season and if he did start, he wouldn't have a WR corp much different than than last season.
The Browns can draft a QB any time they chose..2013, 2014, etc...AFTER most of the supporting cast is in place. Using this draft and the next to complete the rebuilding of the supporting cast does more to insure a QB's success than spending two first round picks now which will stunt the progress that would have been gained this year, with #4 and #22 picks.
Is RG3 worth a Trent Richardson and a Kendall Wright?
Is RG3 worth more than a Justin Blackmon and a Mike Adams?
I hope you get an idea where I'm coming from...spending #4 and #22 on Griffin comes at a huge price to the rebuilding project.
Now if Griffin can be had at our #4, without any extra picks, that might be acceptable if Holmgren and Heckert believe RG3 "is the one".
jmho...mac
Quote:
What some seem to be missing, this is a team rebuilding via the draft and if we drop down two first round picks...#4 and #22 for Griffin, it comes at a cost of stunting the rebuild program.
I still think it's going to take more than our two 1st rounders..
I still think we would trade down if he is there at 4.
Quote:
I still think we would trade down if he is there at 4.
You don't think they'd grab RG3 if he's there at 4?
I really will never be any good at guessing what the Browns will take in the draft. the only time I got the first round pick right was on Tim Couch and that was almost a no brainer....LOL
You could say that the road to Griffen goes threw Cleveland, not St. Louis or Minnesota
Quote:
Is RG3 worth more than a Justin Blackmon and a Mike Adams?
Is Mike Vick worth more than Crabtree and Flozell Adams?
To you and the other Pro-McCoy fans:
1. This league isn't about "finding out" for 2+ seasons IF, IF, IF a player can develop to be good enough...especially NOT at the QB position....that should happen behind the scene with project QBs like McCoy....why on earth should Colt be given more time? Why not Clausen then? He was graded higher by everyone in the draft process...who knows, maybe he would thrive with more weapons around him? Was life fair to him? Did Carolina trade away their 1st overall to "imtpve the team around him" or did they elect to improve HIS position?
2. That was my biggest fear when we drafted McCoy...that we'd waste more time...and here we are...going into his 3rd season and being handed 2011 there are still homers who want to "give him more time" despite Colt handing us a top 5 pick (remember when those homers said: "if Colt sucks, we'll draft high again anyway"...well, HERE WE ARE, DOH) ....most of those fans want Lauvao, Marecic, J.Mitchell etc replaced though....hmm
3. We DO NOT trade away our "future" if we sacrifice #22 (and let's add a 4th rounder worst case)...we'd still have picks in every round and multiple picks on day 3....right now we're holding 13 (!) picks for the upcoming draft....if we sacrifice 1 or even 2 picks, we still will bring in an above AVG draft quantitatively (and, trusting Heckert, most likely qualitatively too)....you guys are getting way too pick happy
Quote:
Is RG3 worth a Trent Richardson and a Kendall Wright?
Is RG3 worth more than a Justin Blackmon and a Mike Adams?
If RGIII is a legit franchise QB then the answer to both of those questions is yes.
All of your negatives involve trading up, which I'm leery of as well.. but what if RGIII is there at #4? Is RGIII and Wright better and Richardson and Wright? By a mile.
What is wrong with RGIII this year and the a top 3 WR next year since you seem to think we aren't going to get any better if we take a QB? Do you think it would have mattered if the Lions had taken Calvin Johnson one year and Matthew Stafford the next or if they had taken Stafford and then Johnson? I don't think it would have mattered.
We have taken 3 second round WRs in the last few years and I don't know if any of them are legit #1 WRs.. should we keep drafting WRs in the first 2 rounds every year until we think we got it right before investing in a QB?
What if the Browns view Little as the next Roddy White? White had two 500 yard seasons then exploded and has been over 1200 every year since.. what changed? Matt Ryan.
Just curious here - why is it that people that feel "don't trade 3 first rounders plus" to get Griffin are labeled - in your view, as "pro McCoy"?
In your opinion - would it be possible that "those" people could be called realists?
Is it possible that "those" people have seen so many so called "can't miss first pick qb's" stink it up in the nfl?
Or did I miss the memo that said Griffin was a can't miss all pro hall of famer? If I did, it's because I've been reading all the memos and I just got behind in reading.
Or is it because EVERY year there is a "can't miss" qb prospect. EVERY single year. Do half of them pan out?
Just curious. But, I guess that makes me "pro McCoy", right?
DJ, I don't think that we will need to trade up to get Griffen if we want him.
A bird in hand is worth two in the woods, so even IF another team offers the Rams or Vikings more then the face value of that trade. Our two first round picks still trump that deal (refer to bird in hand). A team would really have to go over board on their offer for us to realistically have to offer anymore and guess what we still have more ammunition to trump most any offer if we feel we should.
We either take Griffen at 4 or entertain any trade offers for the chance to draft Griffen.
j/c
Any draft guru who doesn't say we should draft Blackmon is a monster and a monster, in that order.
I think the key to our draft is Hillis. If we don't re-sign him, I have a feeling we go with Richardson.
In which case we trade out of 4 with Washington and get him at 6.
Assuming no one trades with Jax to jump in front of us for Richardson.
I think heckert will go after Mario Williams in free agency and will make him the highest paid DE in the history of the NFL. I believe if we stay at 4 it will be Claiborne. Then guess what move Sheldon to FS pik up Trevathon in the 4th and we have an insane defense pretty much in place for the next 5 plus years, asuperbowl Caliber defense.
So now you have your great defense so how do we fix the offense. Tannehill if he is there at 22 woo hoo. If not we address the position next year with Barkley Jones or one of those young gun QBs from Georgia and Arkansas.
If Tannehill is gone, no big deal, go bpa with a more offensive theme for the remainder of the draft other than the weakside backer spot and you are adding pieces to make your O ready for the big time QB while your defense holds down the fort.
1. 3 1st rounders for Griffin? I guess you needed that exageration to make "a point"
2. So, you're essentially saying that we better stay with the 90% crap at QB we have right now because there is a risk that the guy we go get COULD be crap? Superb logic
3. Last but not least I'll cite walterfootball's need list for the Browns:
1. Quarterback: There are a handful of Cleveland fans in denial about this, but Colt McCoy is not a franchise quarterback. The Browns will never be a perennial playoff contender until they acquire one. As mentioned, Robert Griffin could be theirs this April.
http://walterfootball.com/offseason2012cle.php
I also believe we could very well see Donovan McNabb running this team until a young QB is groomed to be the starter. Heckert, Shurmur and Chilly have all worked with him and we can probably get him for slightly above league min.
Quote:
Who's Walter?
Walter Cherepinsky= Draftnik
Okay, Walter has a last name but why should we listen to or care what Walter has to say?
Any relation to where's Waldo?
Quote:
Okay, Walter has a last name but why should we listen to or care what Walter has to say?
Like I said he is a Drafnik who happens to have his own web page. I wouldn't read to much into what he has to say, not that it's wrong, but it's really no more reliable then some Draftnik poster in our DTers community.
Oh, he's just another schmuck...
He's quoted above like some kind of guru with the knowledge of the ancients and the Rosetta Stone of the draft board.
Just trying to keep it all in perspective.
Quote:
Oh, he's just another schmuck...
He's quoted above like some kind of guru with the knowledge of the ancients and the Rosetta Stone of the draft board.
Just trying to keep it all in perspective.
I've known him for 10 years or more. He's not a bad guy. Just another one with his opinion. He does get his information in part from other fans of teams in the League and he puts a lot of time in his site, but like I said it's his opinion more then anything else.
Quote:
Who's Walter?
He's not alone among analysts saying that Colt sucks...Ed Reed agrees too
Quote:
Quote:
Who's Walter?
He's not alone among analysts saying that Colt sucks...Ed Reed agrees too
Ah - so if someone were to say our whole offense was bad, that means we're Colt lovers. But if you say Colt sucks, and reed agrees, you're right? Got it.
I myself wouldn't trade 2 first rounders plus a second to move up for a might be qb.
I would use our picks to enhance the...........get this..........the TEAM. But, that makes me a Colt lover I guess. In your opinion, anyway.
Quote:
Quote:
Thanks for doing this:
2007 - JaMarcus Russell - #1 pick Bust The Raiders were awful
2007 - Brady Quinn - Trade up to #23 Bust The Browns were awful
2008 - Matt Ryan Probably good The Falcons have talent
2008 - Joe Flacco - Trade up to #18 Good The Ravens have talent
2009 - Matthew Stafford - #1 pick I like this kid,, but injury prone The Lions have talent
2009 - Mark Sanchez - Trade up to #5 IMO,, will Bust The Jets don't have much on offense
2009 - Josh Freeman - Trade up to #17 Too soon to call The Bucs have a little talent
2010 - Sam Bradford - #1 pick Probalby good, but so far ehh The Rams have some talent but were really depleted this year with injuries
2010 - Tim Tebow - Trade up to #25 Probably good The Broncos have a great coach and a great defense
2011 - Cam Newton - #1 pick early to tell, but probably good
2011 - Jake Locker - Considered a reach at #8 Early not sure
2011 - Blaine Gabbert - Trade up to #10 not sure but too early
2011 - Christian Ponder - Considered a big reach at #12 Early but looks good
I'm not all that impressed with the results apparently...LOL
Wow look, all of the QBs that you think are decent or have a future went to teams that either had talent or have added talent since the QB was drafted.. odd how that works. Which is why I didn't rate the rookies, those teams still have a year or two to add talent before a better evaluation can be made but most of them went to teams which were thin..
LOL, yeah, it is funny
Probably the only one I don't agree with you on is the jets.. I think they did have talent on Offense.
help me out here.. the year we traded our pick to them so they could take sanchez, that was manginis first year here right?
And, I think the Offense for the Jets was doing pretty well until Favre got hurt. then it went down hill quickly..
So some degree of talent was on that team the year after Sanchez was picked.
I still think that sanchez will bust out. but that's JMO..
that's another one that some fans thought we let slip away.
To be honest Sanchez looks identical to Eli Manning a few years ago.
Quote:
To be honest Sanchez looks identical to Eli Manning a few years ago.
Maybe that's the way it will end up,,but right now, he's not looking like he's worthy of the 5th overall pick,
What's really sad is, I believe, 100%, that if we'd have drafted Sanchez, with the team we could put around him last year and the year before, we'd be talking about moving up to grab RG3..
If we had drafted Sanchez, We never would have brought in Jake Delhomme...
I can almost consider that a win...
Quote:
I think heckert will go after Mario Williams in free agency and will make him the highest paid DE in the history of the NFL. I believe if we stay at 4 it will be Claiborne. Then guess what move Sheldon to FS pik up Trevathon in the 4th and we have an insane defense pretty much in place for the next 5 plus years, asuperbowl Caliber defense.
So now you have your great defense so how do we fix the offense. Tannehill if he is there at 22 woo hoo. If not we address the position next year with Barkley Jones or one of those young gun QBs from Georgia and Arkansas.
If Tannehill is gone, no big deal, go bpa with a more offensive theme for the remainder of the draft other than the weakside backer spot and you are adding pieces to make your O ready for the big time QB while your defense holds down the fort.
find a WOLB and I really, really like this.
Mourg, how much Kentucky did you get to watch this year? I only saw onegame of his done on the "SEC Express" which I DVRd to watch just him. That game he was pretty unimpressive.
Quote:
I still think we would trade down if he is there at 4.
I hope so Mourg. I still think that is the best option especially with Heckert making the picks and trades.
I watched a lot of their games. Honestly, he is a solid tackler but not a big hitter. He is however excellent in coverage. Hybrid S/OLB type. Only gonna go about 6 ft even and around 230-235. I think he has very good instincts and he is one of those kids that just seems to come up with a huge play.
at worst he is a 3rd down backer which we need anyway and at best he finishes out what could be a pretty solid linebacker corps.
Well, I sure would like it if we had an OLB who can not make a run-of-the-mill TE look like freakin Usain Bolt (see Fujita / TEN thus season.)
Quote:
To be honest Sanchez looks identical to Eli Manning a few years ago.
Sanchez is trash and I wouldn't trade a 6th round pick for him.
Quote:
Quote:
To be honest Sanchez looks identical to Eli Manning a few years ago.
Sanchez is trash and I wouldn't trade a 6th round pick for him.
I would just to make him the QB3 behind Colt and laugh at him. It'd be high comedy in my household (silly USC fans)
Quote:
Quote:
Okay, Walter has a last name but why should we listen to or care what Walter has to say?
Like I said he is a Drafnik who happens to have his own web page. I wouldn't read to much into what he has to say, not that it's wrong, but it's really no more reliable then some Draftnik poster in our DTers community.
I've found that my thoughts align themselves with his thinking more than any other site, and I'm not the only one. In fact, I actually tend to favor his site over McShay.
It is fascinating reading how far and wide the various values placed on RG3 really are. He's gifted but limited, athletic but stiff, natural but mechanical, and the most gifted thrower I've seen in years who looks so damned wonky.
General reply...I can't agree that if we're out of the race for Griffin that such a thing won't allow another team with a perceived lesser offer to get blocked. If the Rams REALLY wanna move, they will have no shortage of partners, especially when the team that could offer the most backs out. They have so many needs that even if they can't get one guy they are assured of finding another elite guy at a position of need. It may not be as great of a deal as they wanted, but it'll still be a helluva deal for a team that just doesn't want to be in that spot.
I do know this: QB or otherwise, the Browns are going to have a big talent infusion before this season even begins both through free agency as well as the draft. That in and of itself is exciting, but no more exciting to see what Griffith could do as a Brown. We haven't had an athlete like that playing the position with those tools in decades.
Just gotta keep the fugger upright...
We may have the advantage not because we have an extra first, but because our first pick comes before everyone elses...
If St Louis asks for our #22 and we say no thanks..
Then they go to Washington, Miami, or whoever, and can't get a 2013 1st...
Wouldn't you automatically, If you REALLY want to move out of the spot that is, go back to the team with the highest pick (us at #4) and see what you can get...?
Why drop to #6 for a 2nd and change, whe nyou can drop to #4 and make sure you're getting a top guy...
I'm still holding out the chance that, Flynn and Manning go to Washington and Miami, and we can just sit back and let RG3 fall to us (if we're going after him that is)
Quote:
Why drop to #6 for a 2nd and change, when you can drop to #4 and make sure you're getting a top guy...
First off...Washington's not even gonna sniff #2 for anything less than 6 and at least their 2013 First Rounder...6 to 2 for a QB is a major move...Now the difference for the Rams between 4 and 6 is HUGE if they want an ELITE talent...And that elite talent does not include Blackmon...6'0" Receivers that don't have burner speed r not considered elite...Sorry...
So...They go to 6 and most likely lose the Top 5 Elite players...
Luck
RGIII
Kalil
Claiborne
Richardson
Then comes Blackmon...
Will they be OK with Blackmon at 6???...Who knows...But after those 5 or 6 this draft DROPS in talent level...There's not alot of ELITE to go around this year...
The Rams need to be careful with this...What they SHOULD do is take our 4 and 22...OR our 4 and 37 with one of our 2 fourth rounders and guarantee that one of Kalil or Claiborne is theirs at 4...
Quote:
I'm still holding out the chance that, Flynn and Manning go to Washington and Miami, and we can just sit back and let RG3 fall to us
Obviously that's the single best thing that can happen for us...I'd even add Seattle to that mix...Let these guys all go the FA route...And we'll know for sure before the draft as to what we need or don't need to do...
Here's a twist for ya'...
What if Minny LOVES RGIII???...They would take him since he would be light years ahead of Ponder in their eyes...Ponder was way over-drafted...Everyone with half a noodle agrees with that...Yet another reason for us to go to 2 if we really like Griffin...
U guys r so fixated on this 22 pick...Probably because we've never had 2 first rounders before...lol...In my eyes that's what I call a "Gimmee Pick"...USE THE DAMN THING AS AMMO...We do that and we still have a boatload of picks in EVERY ROUND...And as Toader said...Adding FA to the mix is gonna set us up with a serious influx of talent to what we have...And WE HAVE OUR QB...A QB who has no physical or mental limitations...
And if Tannehill shows any promise at all in his Pro Day and Team specific workouts...He won't be there at 22 for us anyways...Simply because he's a QB...He'll end up in KC-Seattle-Zona or Philly...Maybe even Dallas...11-15...
Damanshot...U need to understand drafting and trades my man...It WILL NOT take 3 first rounders to get to 2 from 4...And we will LAUGH at a 2nd or 3rd rounder to drop from a premium spot at 4 to 10...The STARTING point for that is 2013's First Rounder...U also need to understand that it is not giving up 3 first round picks if we trade to 1 or 2...The cost is TWO...The other is a SWAP...
Toader...I gotta a question about Ethics when it comes to NFL GM's and trading in the draft...
If this happened I know if I were Heckert or any other GM it would pissss me off immensely to the point I will NEVER AGAIN deal with u...
If we call the Rams and they know no other team is talking to them...Would they LIE and say we need your 22 and 37 to make the deal because we have a better offer on the table than your 4 and 22 at this point...
I don't see them doing that because that would send shock waves across the league when it's found out...
We've never been in any War Room...I'm curious what u think about that...
Quote:
Quote:
What some seem to be missing, this is a team rebuilding via the draft and if we drop down two first round picks...#4 and #22 for Griffin, it comes at a cost of stunting the rebuild program.
I still think it's going to take more than our two 1st rounders..
I don't think so....really, the article posted my Mac makes a lot of sense.
Also consider this...is it possible the Skins want Griffin and we don't? If so, we still hold the cards. We just work with the Skins. Here's how it works.
We tell the Skins to hold tight, don't bid on Griffin and try to get to #2. We will trade our pick at #4 to them....a much cheaper deal for the Skins. If somebody trys to jump in front of us to #2 or #3, we will outbid whoever, and then the skins still make the deal with us, but paying whatever it was they were going to offer the Rams...
It's worth it to the Skins to go that route and possibly get Griffin at a much cheaper cost.
The only snag would be if the Rams or Vikes actually drafted Griffin...which doesn't make much sense.
Quote:
Probably because we've never had 2 first rounders before...lol
Last time we had 2 first round picks, the 2nd guy we picked was Brady Quinn.
Time before that it was Antonio Langham and Derrick Alexander.
Time before that was Clay Matthews and Ozzie Newsome.
Time before that was Steve Holden and Pete Adams. Yeah, I had to look them up too.
Time before that was Mike Phipps and Bob McKay. (Bob McKay, best known for having Mean Joe Greene kick him in the cup ........ at least I hope he wore a cup) Yeah ... I'm depressed too.
Time before that was Gary Collins and Leroy Jackson.(Jackson never played for us)
Time before that was Bobby Garrett and John Bauer. (Who??)
And that is out entire history of picking twice in the first round.
So .... once it worked out well ..... and one other time that could have maybe worked out, we lost our team. (1994 draft)
Trade the damn pick ,,, save our team! (Yes, that's sarcasm for those who are wondering)
Since I think RG3 will fall to us naturally at #4 you're saying that RG3 is Mike Phipps!
I agree, trade the damn pick!
Y...Can u and anyone else puter savy go look at what I just started in the Feedback Forum...
Thanks...
Quote:
To you and the other Pro-McCoy fans:
DJ...you forget...I'm the one who started the Matt Flynn thread to discuss the possibility signing him in free agency.
DJ...you forget...I'm the one who started the Jason Campbell thread to discuss the possibility of signing him in free agency.
DJ...didn't I just say... "Now if Griffin can be had at our #4, without any extra picks, that might be acceptable if Holmgren and Heckert believe RG3 "is the one". "
Flynn is an option
Campbell is an option
McCoy is an option
RG at #4, might be an option if the Browns brain trust feel he is worthy
Are you getting any clue where I'm coming from?
I believe I place more value on the #4 and #22 pick than 95% of those talking about giving up #4 and #22....that is where I'm coming from.
I do not believe RG is worthy of our two first round draft picks...especially considering the fact that the Browns are a team attempting to rebuild via the draft.
This franchise cannot afford to just toss away first round picks, gambling that RG is going to lead the Browns to the promised land.
I personally do not think that there will be any trades and we will probably take Griffen at 4.
If another team (in the top 10) can persuade us to trade that pick.
We will take offers, but we should let the League know that Griffen is our guy and whom ever thinks they want to try and trade above us with a 'reasonable' offer will be trumped.
So unless we see a landmark trade (see Ricky Williams) the road to Griffen will go threw us.
Every year it's the same thing with trades projected at the top of the Draft, like last year nothing became of it.
Many in the media assumed, because Carolina had the first pick and had so many needs that they would trade that pick. Didn't happen. This year is no different and hey it makes for high drama, but is it feasible? I think that there is more of a possibility that if a trade is made, that it will be with a team moving up to pick 4 to trade with us.
That 22nd selection is much more significant then some folks are giving it credit for.
A bird in hand is better then two in the woods/bush<(remember we have a pg rating on the board, so ...)
It's our Ace in the hole and should 'only' be used as a trump card. No other team in the QB market can offer that.
It also sets the bar for teams who might be looking to trade up. Knowing they have to not only clear that bar, but have to clear it by a good distance too.
We are in the drivers seat here folks and we can either take or trade the choice to select Griffen.
Some of you have a hard time seeing past all the smoke screens, but this projected trade with teams bidding for the right to draft Griffen with the 2nd or 3rd selection is nothing more then 'lose' speculation and not very well thought threw imo.
Perception can be as strong as the truth
Quote:
RG at #4, might be an option if the Browns brain trust feel he is worthy
And if we think he's worthy...We will take him...U r correct sir...
Quote:
I do not believe RG is worthy of our two first round draft picks...especially considering the fact that the Browns are a team attempting to rebuild via the draft.
I'm sure the FO doesn't care what u me or any other schmuck thinks...But I can tell u this much...And u better prepare yourself for it...Cause if we like Griffin at 4...This is very likely to happen because they WILL NOT let him go elsewhere...QB's r THAT important...Rebuilding a team or not...
We WILL trade 4 and 22 if need be to get Griffin...Get used to it...Cause if we like em'...We'll do it if we need to and never look back...And we SHOULD do it...And move right along to the 37th pick...
Look Mac...If we like RGIII and it takes the 22 pick to get him...There isn't a damn player at 22 that I would rather have with whoever we took at 4 not named Griffin...We FINALLY have secured the QB that we will hitch the wagon too going forward...And WHO gives a rats ass if he doesn't work out...U HAVE to take this chance when u r so high in any draft...U need a QB...And the QB is available...What is soooo damn hard to understand about that...
One pick...A pick we wouldn't even have cept for the trade with Atlanta...IS NOT going to hinder this football team going forward...NOT ONE DAMN BIT...
Hell...In that thread I ran awhile back I and others SHOWED u what we could do in the draft and FA even if we gave up all the picks to get Luck at #1...Going to 2 for Griffin won't cost nearly as much...And we could do even more damage with what we have left...
I might just do THAT one too...Just to SHOW u again in black and white what damage we could do in FA and the draft even giving up 22 AND a 4th rounder just for grins...And take RGIII at #2...And I'd bet 4 and 22 is enuff...Hell 4 and 37 with a 4th might even do it...
Quote:
And WHO gives a rats ass if he doesn't work out
dnd...Like I said, I value the #4 and #22 picks more than 95% of you who feel it's ok if we waste the picks on one player.
I value the top WR, Justin Blackmon at #4 and one of the top OTs, Mike Adams at #22, more than I value RGiii.
I value Trent Richardson or Morris Claiborne at #4 and Kendall Wright or Donta Hightower at #22 more than I value Rgiii.
Filling two positions of need is better than filling one position...one position (qb) that carries a higher bust factor than nearly any other position.
If RGiii is a bust, the damage done to this franchise could take years to overcome.
I do not want to see the Browns return to the past method of trying to build a winner...resorting to over paid free agents who under perform. Before Holmgren and Heckert arrived, the Browns tried to build a winner by over paying free agents to play in Cleveland...tell me how that worked out !
I look at the turn around the Browns defense did in one year and I can see that Holmgren's method of building the team via the draft works. The defense still needs to add some more pieces, hopefully one of our first rounders or the #37 can add to one of the positions of need on defense.
There are other ways to fill our QB needs if the front office feels there is a need to do so and I'm willing to consider all of them. Like I said, 95% might not care if the Browns spend #4 and #22 on one player...I do care...guess that makes me a 5%er.
Quote:
If RGiii is a bust, the damage done to this franchise could take years to overcome.
if he is a franchise QB and you have a chance to get him and pass on it that can also take awhile to over-come...
I agree with you for the most part though... I'd like to stay at #4 and if he's there take him and if not take Richardson or Caliborne... but I can totally understand if the FO trades both our firsts to go get him...
Quote:
There are other ways to fill our QB needs if the front office feels there is a need to do so and I'm willing to consider all of them.
Umm? Like? Signing a below AVG FA? Keep your own below AVG bum you have on the roster? I don't see many other options other then do what bad to inconsistent teams like DET, ATL and CAR did these past drafts..and that is to draft your own franchise QB when you have the opportunity to do so
Ask the Seahawks how they feel about winning those useless 8-9 games this past season and drafting 10+ now...they still don't have a QB and have no shot at drafting one without giving up WAY MORE than what we'd have to spend
You want to draft a RB and LB with 4 and 22? There's a reason their respective franchise tag number is significantly below the QB's....VALUE !!!
Quote:
Ask the Seahawks how they feel about winning those useless 8-9 games this past season and drafting 10+ now...they still don't have a QB and have no shot at drafting one without giving up WAY MORE than what we'd have to spend
Umm maybe we should ask the Rams and the Vikings how they feel first about drafting a 1st round QB and still drafting before us. Bradford Statistically and by the eye looked worse than McCoy this Year, Maybe they should think about drafting Griffin because 2 years after using the #1 overall pick on the "best QB in Years", they are drafting 2nd..say it out loud..The Rams with Sam Bradford are drafting Second in the 2012 NFL draft.
Let's take it a step further shall we? These are all teams in the top 10 that have draqfted their so Called franchise QB in the first round. How's that working out for them?
2)St Louis- Bradford
3)Minnesota- Ponder
4)Cleveland- Couch/Quinn
5)Tamp Bay- Freeman
6)Washington-Campbell
7)Jacksonville-Leftwich/Gabbart
9)Carolina-Newton Year before took Clausen in 2nd
Quote:
Let's take it a step further shall we? These are all teams in the top 10 that have draqfted their so Called franchise QB in the first round. How's that working out for them?
2)St Louis- Bradford
3)Minnesota- Ponder
4)Cleveland- Couch/Quinn
5)Tamp Bay- Freeman
6)Washington-Campbell
7)Jacksonville-Leftwich/Gabbart
9)Carolina-Newton Year before took Clausen in 2nd
LMAO...Whateverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...
32) Giants---Manning
30) Frisco--Smith
29) Balt--Flacco
28) GB---Rogers
24) Pitt---Burger
23) Detroit---Stafford
22) Atlanta---Ryan
19) Chi---Cutler
18) SD---Rivers
So what's the point??????
The BEST shot at a Quality QB u can keep around 10+ years and WIN consistently with is happening HIGH in Round One...
It's a shame u brain can't wrap around that...Cause it's FACT...
Quote:
32) Giants---Manning
30) Frisco--Smith
29) Balt--Flacco
28) GB---Rogers
24) Pitt---Burger
23) Detroit---Stafford
22) Atlanta---Ryan
19) Chi---Cutler
18) SD---Rivers
So what's the point??????
The BEST shot at a Quality QB u can keep around 10+ years and WIN consistently with is happening HIGH in Round One...
It's a shame u brain can't wrap around that...Cause it's FACT...
It's a shame U can't read because if you go back one more post it is a reply to DJ about not being in a position to get a Franchise QB in the top 10. You can spin it any way you like my brother..but facts is facts..How is Sam Bradford and the Rams picking 2nd again? How do his numbers look Dawg? Wrap your Brain on that.
Three of those QB's you listed have won a SuperBowl..One was considered a bust until this year after 8 years in the league. One isn't with the same team that drafted him.
Fun fact: Heckert drafted Kolb out of UH. Same Art Briles's system at Baylor for RGIII. Shurmur was the QB coach for Kolb in Philly.
Quote:
If RGiii is a bust, the damage done to this franchise could take years to overcome.
mac you really do come across as not wanting to draft a QB simply because you are scared they could bust.
If we want to become a perennial 8-9 win team we could take running backs, WRs, right tackles and we could be decent if those picks all pan out (which isn't likely)... we might even sneak into the playoffs once in a while.... if we want to be great, we need a top notch QB.. whether you think RGIII is that guy or not, we need a top notch QB at some point and getting to 8-9 wins isn't going to help us get one... it's only going to make it harder.
For years we have used high draft picks (1st and 2nd round) to "build the team".. WRs, TEs, LTs, CBs, DEs, DTs, LBs, Cs, Ss.... and we still suck. Our one first round QB sucked (I don't count Couch because on an expansion team he never had a chance)... so to say if we draft a QB and if he sucks, then we will suck for years to come is rather disengenuous.. since we have tried all sorts of OTHER options.. and we still suck.
Man that sounds pretty bad...
But you're right...
Quote:
Umm maybe we should ask the Rams and the Vikings how they feel first about drafting a 1st round QB and still drafting before us. Bradford Statistically and by the eye looked worse than McCoy this Year, Maybe they should think about drafting Griffin because 2 years after using the #1 overall pick on the "best QB in Years", they are drafting 2nd..say it out loud..The Rams with Sam Bradford are drafting Second in the 2012 NFL draft.
Maybe they should. My personal opinion is that the Vikings had a rookie first rounder so you obviously give him another year.. even Peyton went 3-13 in his first year, nobody here is asking the Browns to do anything quite as knee-jerk as taking back to back first round QBs..
Bradford looked good his first year and his team was totally depleted by injury in his second.. he obviously gets another year because of the investment... The Rams are in a fairly good position as I see it, assuming they think Bradford is the guy.. they have their QB AND they have a very high pick they can either use on help for him or trade down to pick up more quality players... we are not in that position I don't think...
Right now we have very minimal investment in the QB spot, our best option on the roster is a 3rd year 3rd round pick.. who has looked shaky at best, much worse depending on who you ask...
FYI...
RGIII has his Pro Day March 21st per HIM...
Does NFL Network cover Pro Days????????????????...I'd like to see this one...
No one will argue that QBs can bust. That doesn't change the fact that it's the one risk that's worth taking every time the other one doesn't pan out. A franchise QB is a MUST in today's NFL. Starting with the Cowboys super team of the 90's, look at the caliber of QB that have won the Super Bowl in the past 20 years.
Hall of Fame
Troy Aikman (3) - 1992, 1993, 1995
Steve Young (1) - 1994
John Elway (2) - 1997, 1998
Future Hall of Fame
Brett Favre (1) - 1996
Tom Brady (3) - 2001, 2003, 2004
Peyton Manning (1) - 2006
Drew Brees (1) - 2009
Potential Hall of Fame
Kurt Warner (1) - 1999
Ben Roethlisberger (2) - 2005, 2008
Eli Manning (2) - 2007, 2011
Aaron Rodgers (1) - 2010
Non-Hall of Fame
Trent Dilfer (1) - 2000
Brad Johnson (1) - 2002
I don't know about you, but that list is striking to me. There's a legitimate chance that 18 of the past 20 Super Bowls have been won by Hall of Fame QBs and the two that didn't have one likely would rank in the Top 10 defenses of all time... not to mention it all took place before rules changes made passing superior.
Knowing that, if I'm an NFL GM, I ask myself 2 questions:
1) Do we have a potential stud QB on the roster? Doesn't look like we do.
2) Does the guy who we want to draft have the potential to be a stud QB? Based on his physical skills and intelligence/personality, I'd say the answer concerning RGIII is yes, he has that potential.
With that being the case, if I'm Heckert, I move up to 2 and get a QB who has the ability to be a stud in RGIII because it's ridiculously difficult to win it all without one. QB is THAT important that even if RGIII is a bit of a gamble, it's a gamble worthwhile because of the potential payoff.
Would you trade the 4, and 22 picks for Aaron Rogers today, or Drew Brees today or even Matt Ryan today, sure, maybe, fine, your getting an NFL QB.
I don't think RG3 is going to be any good as any of them in the next year, or 2 years. Especially if on the Browns where he's gonna get mamed in the head by bad coaching .
All the talking heads, all of them have an investment in the Browns continuing to stink, I doubt any one of them wants to see the Browns succeed.
Theres 2 types of Qb's, pocket guys, and run around guys, the best run around guy I can remember is Steve Mcnair. Then Doug Floutie, Brady Quinn, Michael Vick, Donovan McNabb, and Troy Smith, and Vince Young.
If Barkley was in this draft, you maybe make the argument you trade 4 and 22 for Barkley, or Luck, or sure a proven commodity like a star in his prime, not Carson Palmer, Peyton Manning, or even Chicago's own .
Woud I have traded 4 and 22 for Eli manning coming out of college, (shoot) YA I would have,, I would have traded 4 and 22 to draft him his sophmore year, he was a clear non bust.
RG3 is not a clear non bust.
The 22 pick took alot, ALOT, to get value. We fans have had to wait a YEAR for that 22 pick, which was the main value for moving out of #7 last year.
That 22 pick alread cost the Browns their 3 rd rounder last year or whatever it was to trade back up to secure Phil Taylor, because if they haddn't moved clear down to 28 they wouldn't have had to spend anything to get back to 22.
You can't just throw away the 22 pick. It's not the Browns fault that 2 of the better QB's in this draft returned to school, Landry Jones and Matt Barkley.
They won't make RG3 any better by their not being in the draft. He's still RG3 with all his faults, and compare him to any other QB in the NFL in about 6 months and he's not all that.
In 6 months, ... suppose you can somehow hang on to the 4 and 22 pick in the 2012 draft, and not use them , and then you go to trade them to any team for a QB in the league, are you gonna chose RG3 to trade them for? NO WAY.
Andrew Luck is not even a sure thing but they say he's the closest thing.
I don't like Luck like I liked Eli, but I SURE don't like RG3 that much at ALL.
Let some other poor team get saddled with his bad play for the next 5 years.
The bottom line is IF you trade the 22 pick away to Move up in the draft, then ..
You went from 7 to 28, so in a year you could go from 4 to 2... It's like having a pick about 15 overall and not using it on ANYBODY, it is completely Ludicris.
It would be like giving up golf to focus on tennis, selling all your clubs, then a year later giving up tennis to play golf and looking for a bunch of golf clubs.
Personally I'm not as opposed to drafting RG3 at #4 as I am moving up to get him. We have a somewhat rare opportunity to draft two firsts this year and a lot of holes to fill besides QB.
I'd rather sign Flynn and save both picks for our other needs, but he only knows our offense and has played QB in a couple of NFL games; instead of our savior (doing the tebow) who's not played in any NFL games and doesn't fit the offense we've installed.
One guy though isn't going to instantly make this team a contender, regardless of position. We need to maximize the ammunition we have in a combination of FA moves and the draft, grouping picks for one guy isn't maximizing anything.
Quote:
I don't think RG3 is going to be any good as any of them in the next year, or 2 years. Especially if on the Browns where he's gonna get mamed in the head by bad coaching .
U a pessimist...
Quote:
All the talking heads, all of them have an investment in the Browns continuing to stink, I doubt any one of them wants to see the Browns succeed.
What the hell r u talking about?
Quote:
Quote:
Let's take it a step further shall we? These are all teams in the top 10 that have draqfted their so Called franchise QB in the first round. How's that working out for them?
2)St Louis- Bradford
3)Minnesota- Ponder
4)Cleveland- Couch/Quinn
5)Tamp Bay- Freeman
6)Washington-Campbell
7)Jacksonville-Leftwich/Gabbart
9)Carolina-Newton Year before took Clausen in 2nd
LMAO...Whateverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...
32) Giants---Manning
30) Frisco--Smith
29) Balt--Flacco
28) GB---Rogers
24) Pitt---Burger
23) Detroit---Stafford
22) Atlanta---Ryan
19) Chi---Cutler
18) SD---Rivers
So what's the point??????
The BEST shot at a Quality QB u can keep around 10+ years and WIN consistently with is happening HIGH in Round One...
It's a shame u brain can't wrap around that...Cause it's FACT...
32) Giants---Manning #1, 04
30) Frisco--Smith #1, 05
29) Balt--Flacco #18, 08
(2nd, QB)
28) GB---Rogers #24, 05
(2nd, QB)
24) Pitt---Burger #11, 04
(3rd, QB)
23) Detroit---Stafford #1, 09
22) Atlanta---Ryan #3, 08
(1st, QB)
19) Chi---Cutler #11, 06
(3rd, QB)
18) SD---Rivers #4, 04
(2nd, QB)
(Note '06' Bust);
Vince Young #3, Matt Leinart #10
(Note '04 Bust);
J. P. Losman #22
(Note)= Draft years in illustration above.
Bold= Top 10 selections.
'07' Clean sweep Bust ;
JaMarcus Russell #1
Brady Quinn #22
DND, I don't know if the above facts conclusively supports your argument here.
Your odds are naturally better the higher your selection, but as the facts clearly show ... is that in fact a .500 team still has a chance to hit on a QB in the first round (if they haven't already traded that option away).
Still others such as the Patriots (31), and the Bengals (21) got lucky after the first round.
Alex Smith took what 8 years to take the 9ers to his first playoffs.
Only 3 QB's from that list have won a SB(s) and of that list only Manning was a Top 10 selection.
This Draft won't make or break us (if) we don't find "the guy" (if we draft one or pass). It would sure be nice and long over due, but this draft is not the end all to end all.
Quote:
Knowing that, if I'm an NFL GM, I ask myself 2 questions:
1) Do we have a potential stud QB on the roster? Doesn't look like we do.
2) Does the guy who we want to draft have the potential to be a stud QB? Based on his physical skills and intelligence/personality, I'd say the answer concerning RGIII is yes, he has that potential.
I don't like the phrasing of the question Does the guy who we want to draft have the potential to be a stud QB?" Because you can argue most guys have that potential. Even if it is one in a million "so your saying there's a chance" (Dumb and Dumber quote). Is he likely to... Good possibility of... etc would be better ways to ask that question.
It might seem like a small distinction but I think most people would agree that RGIII has the potential to be a franchise QB but if you ask them if he had a better than 50/50 shot at being a franchise Qb then the answer is less clear cut. Which is why there is so much debate about RGIII whereas if we had the 1 overall then there would be little debate that Luck is the obvious choice (you know some yahoo would still the pot suggesting that we take RGIII over Luck). Then the question would be what do we think those percentages are? 70/30? 30/70? What we think those percentage are determine if you take RGIII or not.
I'd like to see this headline after day 1...
Cleveland Trades #4, #22, 2013 1st rd pick and 3rd rd pick to select QB Luck.
Colts Trade #4, #22 and 2013 4th rd pick to select RG3.
Quote:
FYI...
RGIII has his Pro Day March 21st per HIM...
Does NFL Network cover Pro Days????????????????...I'd like to see this one...
Some other QB also his Pro Day that same day. Some guy named Luck. Who cares about him?
Anyway, if NFL Network isn't there live, which they probably will be, then the schools website (in this case Baylor) usually have some sort of web cam live feed of the workout.
Here's what I don't get. Why does anyone think that RG3 won't be there at #4? Because the Redskins at #6 may be desirous of a QB in the draft and high on RG3? Who says that the Rams can be bought out of the #2 spot? I have no doubt that the Rams will be looking to get their franchise QB some OL help. Unless Kalil stinks up the joint at the combine or has some serious legal issues that give them pause to pass on him, I don't see the Rams giving up the #2 spot and losing him.
The only way that I see them trading out of the #2 spot is if Indy somehow falls in love with RG3 and Andrew Luck falls to them and they auction off the pick to the highest bidder. If Luck somehow drops to them, I could even imagine a scenario where they draft him and send Bradford packing his bags to one of the teams seeking a QB.
As for the Vikings, they have protection issues too but they won't get a chance to draft Kalil (unless the scenario where RG3 goes #1 comes to fruition) and they could very well take Claiborne at #3 if the Colts take Luck #1 and Kalil is gone to the Rams at #2.
Quote:
Rams head coach Jeff Fisher told me the team is open to the possibility of trading the No. 2 overall pick in the 2012 NFL draft. And he views the pick as a pivotal moment for the Rams franchise.
"There are going to be teams that have some interest in that pick," Fisher said. "What we do will define the future of this franchise moving forward. If we stay there who do we take, if we move down who do we take. What if we move down and come back up. That's going to define the future.
"Because I promise you this. We will not be picking second again. This is the last time we're picking second."
I like Fisher's confidence. I like how he threw it down, making it clear that he won't have a team as bad as recent Rams' teams.
Link
Quote:
What if we move down and come back up. That's going to define the future
I really like this scenario for the Rams. Skins give up 1st next year and say a 2nd or 3rd this year. Rams then trade up from 6 back to 4with the browns giving up a 2nd rounder and select Blackmon.
Quote:
Quote:
What if we move down and come back up. That's going to define the future
I really like this scenario for the Rams. Skins give up 1st next year and say a 2nd or 3rd this year. Rams then trade up from 6 back to 4with the browns giving up a 2nd rounder and select Blackmon.
Sounds like a deal to me. Now I assume you think we'll get Tannehill. But I don't really want him, we could get someone like Claiborne or Richardson (depends on Hillis), Kendall Wright, a DE (2nd round), and a RT (2nd round).
That would really upgrade this team.
I would take Claiborne over anyone not named Luck. Richardson and then Tannehill. I am higher on Martin and Kalil but we are set at LT.
Quote:
If we had drafted Sanchez, We never would have brought in Jake Delhomme...
I can almost consider that a win...
So what?
NFL Draft: High Bust Rate With Top 10 Picks
April 18, 2011 12:21 pm
Do you wish your team had a top 10 pick in the draft this year? If you said yes, think again because you could very well be in for a major disappointment. After taking a look at the top 10 overall draft picks from 10 draft classes, it doesn’t appear to be all it’s cracked up to be.
They say it takes 3 years to give a fair assessment of a draft pick. With that being the case, the 2008 draft class just completed their 3rd year so I started with them and went back 10 years (draft classes from 1999 – 2008). What I wanted to find out was the hit and miss rate for top 10 picks with a secondary analysis to see which position had the highest bust rate.
At the end of the day, I wanted to see how beneficial it really is to have a top 10 draft slot. My findings were that if this was a scholastic test it would have received a big fat “F”! 10 draft classes of top 10 picks = 100 total players evaluated. Per my highly subjective analysis, I deemed that 43 of these players could be labeled as busts. So in exam terms that would equal a 57% grade, aka FAIL.
Opinions vary from person to person on whether or not a particular player should be labeled as a bust. Some people place very high expectations on a top 10 player because not only was he thought to be one of the best college players in the country, he was also getting paid a lot of money. If you’re being paid mega-money, people expect mega-results.
While that mindset has validity, it is not entirely the case for me. In my opinion, a player ultimately just needs to be a solid player and produce at a decent level for multiple years. I am not of the opinion that a top 10 pick has to be a perennial pro-bowler. If you draft a player in the top 10 and end up with a long term solid starting player…even if he doesn’t make the pro bowl…then you made a good choice.
When looking at the 100 players in those 10 drafts, I took the following into consideration to form my opinion:
Level of production
The hype that surrounded the player
Is the player a starter
How many years has he started and produced adequately
Did he switch teams (most teams retain their good players, especially top draft picks)
To a lesser extent, the general consensus from the fan base
Of course there are players who have been universally declared a bust, such as Jamarcus Russell, but there are many that are in the murky waters between bust and stud. For example, would you rate players like Reggie Bush, A.J. Hawk, or DeAngelo Hall as a bust given where they were drafted and the hype surrounding them? To me, those types of players aren’t exactly as easy to judge but I did my best to apply an unbiased analysis, albeit a completely personal opinion. Having said that, let’s break down these 10 draft classes with some details:
Position, total selections/number of busts, and ranked by highest BR (bust rate):
1. WR – 17/12 – 70% BR
2. QB – 15/9 - 60% BR
3. DE – 11/6 - 54% BR
4. TE – 2/1 - 50% BR
5. DT – 10/4 - 40% BR
6. RB – 11/4 - 36% BR
7-T. LB – 9/3 - 33% BR
7-T. CB – 9/3 - 33% BR
8. S – 5/1 - 20% BR
9. OL – 11/1 – 9% BR
Again, that breaks down to 57 hits and 43 misses for an overall 57% success rate for draft picks in the top 10. Also, it seems that certain positions are astoundingly over a 50% bust rate. Wide receivers had the most selections with 17 followed by quarterbacks with 15 selections. Out of the 17 WR’s, 12 turned out to be busts while 9 out of the 15 QB’s stunk up their stadiums. That is a 70% and 60% bust rate on those 2 positions respectively, which is an alarming rate of failure. The defensive end position comes bustin’ in at 3rd place with a 54% fail rate (6 out of 11). This is the main reason why a rookie wage scale is assured to be in place in the next CBA.
As you can see, selecting a WR in the top 10 is extremely risky. Maybe I’ve been listening to Andy Reid too long but I’m not sure I understand why that position had the most selections in the top 10…even beating out the most important position in all of sports, quarterback. I have to wonder if the reason why teams go for the star WR is for fan excitement rather than football reasons. Fans love the big play guys and offense sells tickets, right? But as Reid always says, games are won and lost at the line of scrimmage.
The rest of the positions with the most selections are more up Andy Reid’s alley with QB, DL, and OL. Offensive line also proved to be the least risky with only 1 bust out of 11. That’s why highly regarded offensive tackles are usually always considered the “safe pick” in a draft.
In the end, it doesn’t seem like having a top 10 pick in the draft is especially beneficial although every year there is a premium value placed on them in regards to trading. Maybe that is the real benefit…the possibility of trading the pick to acquire more picks in order to draft players just as good but would come without the price tag of a top 10 pick.
If I were an owner, and unless I need a franchise QB or a left tackle, I’d prefer not to be in a position where I’m stuck paying huge money to a player who has almost a 50% chance of failing in the NFL. But as a fan I think having a top 10 pick makes the draft very exciting although the reason why you have it in the first place is usually NOT very exciting (aka, your team must stink).
Here is the run down of players in the past 10 “gradable” drafts. I listed them by position and crossed out the ones I think are/were a bust. Take a look and tell me if you disagree, or place your vote in the poll. I’d be very interested in hearing why or why not you feel one of these players is or isn’t a bust.
QB – Matt Ryan, JaMarcus Russell, Vince Young, Matt Leinart, Alex Smith, Eli Manning, Philip Rivers, Carson Palmer, Byron Leftwich, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Michael Vick, Tim Couch, Donovan McNabb, Akili Smith
WR – Calvin Johnson, Ted Ginn Jr., Braylon Edwards, Troy Williamson, Mike Williams, Larry Fitzgerald, Roy Williams, Reggie Williams, Charles Rogers, Andre Johnson, David Terrell, Koren Robinson, Peter Warrick, Plaxico Burress, Travis Taylor, Torry Holt, David Boston
DE – Chris Long, Derrick Harvey, Gaines Adams, Jamaal Anderson, Mario Williams, Kevin Williams, Julius Peppers, Justin Smith, Andre Carter, Jamal Reynolds, Courtney Brown
DT – Glenn Dorsey, Sedrick Ellis, Amobi Okoye, Dewayne Robertson, Johnathan Sullivan, Ryan Sims, John Henderson, Gerard Warren, Richard Seymour, Corey Simon
LB – Vernon Gholston, Keith Rivers, Jerod Mayo, A.J. Hawk, Ernie Sims, Terrell Suggs, LaVar Arrington, Brian Urlacher, Chris Claiborne
RB – Darren McFadden, Adrian Peterson, Reggie Bush, Ronnie Brown, Cedric Benson, Cadillac Williams, LaDainian Tomlinson, Jamal Lewis, Thomas Jones, Edgerrin James, Ricky Williams
CB – Pacman Jones, Antrel Rolle, Carlos Rogers, DeAngelo Hall, Dunta Robinson, Terence Newman, Quentin Jammer, Champ Bailey, Chris McAlister
S – LaRon Landry, Michael Huff, Donte Whitner, Sean Taylor, Roy Williams
OL – Jake Long, Joe Thomas, Levi Brown, D’Brickashaw Ferguson, Robert Gallery, Jordan Gross, Mike Williams, Bryant McKinnie, Levi Jones, Leonard Davis, Chris Samuels
TE - Vernon Davis, Kellen Winslow
web page
Quote:
Quote:
If we had drafted Sanchez, We never would have brought in Jake Delhomme...
I can almost consider that a win...
So what?
It was a sarcastic comment, I don't ALWAYS remember to use purple font... Because that's somewhat ridiculous...
Mac's post has me thinking about our 2008 draft..
Ouchie. Umm.. grading our 2008 draft? Oh man..
The Cleveland Browns didn't have a draft pick until round four this year (having traded away their early picks in last year's moves to acquire Brady Quinn and others). Below are is the 2008 draft class:
•Beau Bell- Linebacker - UNLV 4th round - Spokane Shock Arena Football League - BUST
•Martin Rucker - Tight End - Missouri 4th round - Signed by the Jacksonville Jaguars off the Dallas Cowboys practice squad - BUST
•Ahtyba Rubin - Defensive Tackle - Iowa State 6th round - Starter, Solid contributor NOT A BUST
•Paul Hubbard - Wide receiver - Wisconsin 6th round - Free agent / out of football BUST
•Alex Hall - Defensive End - St. Augustine's (division II) 7th round - Traded to Eagles for Gocong and Sheldon, waived July 2010. Claimed by Giants then waived by Giants. Signed and waived by Cardinals. Waived by Giants, worked out for squealers then re-signed by NY Giants on December 15 after linebacker Clint Sintim was placed on injured reserve. Should be considered a bust for Cleveland but did bring Gocong and Brown to Cleveland as part of trade Call it what you want I guess.
4 busts, one starter.
It makes me think of one of the most profound things I have ever heard a GM say after that Draft.
When asked about Beau Bell Oppie said that he really knew little about him.
Yet he was our first selection in that draft.
With our first pick coming in the 4th I'm not surprised that was a busted up draft year.... totally a forgetable draft that year... I didn't even watch.....
Honestly, it's not a bad draft to turn 4,4,6,6, 7 into a starter -- and a very good one at that.
Fair enough.
IF that had been 2 thru 6 I would have wanted at least 2 starters and hoped for 1 additional contributor. (special teams or something)
Hard to know what to make of those numbers. They would be more meaningful if we knew what the "bust rates" were for other picks. That 57% success rate means something different if the success of picks 11-20 is 80% vs 57% vs 20%. What about the success rates of picks 21-32? Or the second round? This article is a good start to an article but incomplete.
Additionally, top ten picks tend to go to bad teams. Later picks in the 1st round go to better teams. Better teams are more likely to have stability at coaching resulting in the same system. The players enter an environment of winning. They get better coaching, they see players who work harder and are better at preparing for games so they pick up good habits rather than bad.
This guy has a VERY loose definition of non-bust when it comes to some of these positions.
With just the OL alone, how doesn't he consider Gallery/Levi Brown/Leonard Davis busts? Gallery and Davis have both carved out decent careers for themselves but they both had to switch to guard (and Davis couldn't even play LG). Levi Brown can't play LT to save his life. If a guy goes Top 10 and isn't playing LT in the pros, that's a bust easy.
And now you see why I suggested a different font...
j/c..
if i remember correctly Alex Hall did pretty good here at one point.. I believe when Romeo was still the head chief... but when he got axed.. Hall got the boot.
He was definitely more of a 4-3 DE.. just like Wimbley should have been..
Beau Bell is actually doing pretty good in the other football league. He's still a bruiser.
Hubbard was just a track guy. Bad pick.
I'm pretty sure changing his number from 96 to 51 ruined his career... It went straight downhill afterwards...
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
If we had drafted Sanchez, We never would have brought in Jake Delhomme...
I can almost consider that a win...
So what?
It was a sarcastic comment, I don't ALWAYS remember to use purple font... Because that's somewhat ridiculous...
Yeah,, I forgot the purple also with my So What? we are even...LOL
you have to go to the link to see exactly who he crossed off. for the most part, I agree with his Busts.. there are a couple I don't agree with...
Interesting bit of work by the writer..
a 7th rounder a bust?
Any 7th rounder who saw the field for 2-3 seasons is a successful pick
and calling Rubin a "solid contributor"? Really? He is the heart of the D
I'll still defend Savage for that draft class..it was a horrible class overall and the right one to trade away high picks for Rogers (who Crennel got 1 PB season out of...Mangini, as cold have been expected, not so much) and Corey Williams, who then was considered an up and coming DL...please take a look at the DL class of that draft
We would have picked 22...here are the DL from there on picked in teh 1st/2nd:
DE L.Jackson
DE Balmer
DE Merling
DT Laws
DE C.Campbell
DE Groves
DT J.Jones
1 good starter, 1 bad...the rest are only rotational players at best
We had a HUGE DL need that offseason and Savage did the right thing to trade for 2 proven NFL vets instead of grabbing 1 or 2 of those guys listed above....and then he got Rubin in the 6th who might be the best DT out of that draft class....the way I look at it, it was a pretty good "haul" all things considered....the pick he missed and gott nooted for was whiffing on Quinn
Savage wasn't good, he was barely AVG on draft day....but I'll always give him that he at least TRIED.....and many forget that our only 10 win season was under his watch too
@ top 10 bust list
Problem with this ist is that all those bust was from the old CBA....you throw way too many millions at spoiled kids and that's what happens...now that they get less some of them will work harder to get more of what they previously got handed...WR at no1 as primadonna-laden position really isn't surprising...QB and pass rushers are really hardest to evaluate thsu the high bust factor there
yea.. I can't hate on Savage either.. in my eyes he tried to put a decent team together. He drafted some pretty good guys, and brought in some pretty good free agents while he was here.
His downfall was he didn't always listen to the head coach wants/needs (according to reports of course).
Quote:
Additionally, top ten picks tend to go to bad teams. Later picks in the 1st round go to better teams. Better teams are more likely to have stability at coaching resulting in the same system. The players enter an environment of winning. They get better coaching, they see players who work harder and are better at preparing for games so they pick up good habits rather than bad.
That is a great point. It explains my argument that there are so many variables that go into a player's success or failure that it cannot all be blamed on the player himself. I believe many good players have been ruined by the variables on bad teams.
And it also explains individual stats as an individual player on a better team would likely have better stats than his peer on a bad team.
Variables are the culprits that make definitive assessments on players, and even teams, so hard to evaluate as the result is unreliable at best.
And if you'd look at and quantify/rate each and every variable numerically: a QB lacks WR's, a RB lacks an OL, the WR's lack a QB, the defense lacks a pass rush or secondary, the coaching staff lacks consistency or quality coaching, the FO lacks a successful plan, etc, etc, you'd end up with so many numbers that even Lyuokdea couldn't sort it all out.
These are the very things an NFL General Manager has to look at in deciding what his team needs and who, from Free Agency or the Draft can fill those positions successfully given the variables of his team.
This is a daunting task as everyone knows.
So a team drafts a RB high, he never really pans out and is considered a bust. But given a closer look the offense their passing game gets no respect so teams load up the box to stop the run, and they do. A closer inspection shows the OL is lacking talent to the point that they can't pass block and that's why their passing game is deficient. So what they need is OL but what they draft is RB. It's a set up for a RB to fail. Drafted by a team with a better OL that same player could end up in the HOF.
Teams have to be honest about who they are and the talent level at each position when heading into FA and the Draft. I honestly believe many teams fools themselves just like many fans do. Fans have the excuse that they really don't intimately know the physical/talent level or the idiosyncrasies of each player on the team. But GM's have all this information. Still, they make mistakes in judgement of even their own players.
The article posted on the board by Mike Lombardi gives four common mistakes teams make in judgement/evaluation. It's hard to imagine that teams make these mistakes because it seems more like the mistakes that fans would make. But make them they do and it's often to the severe detriment of their success.
It's harder still to intimately know a draft eligible player even given the vast amount of film on a guy and bringing them in for a look. They get to ask probing questions and pick and prod the player medically as well as interview everyone who knows them. But it's not until they are on the team working with their teammates that the GM really gets a strong take on who he is and what he can do.
It's a crap shoot that works out well if the player, on his own merit, works out and if the GM has rightly decerned his team needs successfully taking everything into account.
Heckert seems to get it. He is patient in his building as he has not gone spending crazy on short-term FA fixes. He's also had a pretty good track record with us in his drafts. Hopefully this continues and the organization does not fold to fan pressure and draft any player for the "hype" or "making the big newsworthy splash".
I am not a draftnik. I know very little about college players, even the best ones. But something happened last draft that has never happened in all my years. I didn't recognize the names of any of our draft picks! That tells me that Heckert, along with the scouts are being complete and comprehensive in their evaluations. Because the picks seem to be working out even though they were not household names who are always newsworthy. That says a lot to me.
I get all my draft information on here from you guys. Considering that none of you know your ass from a hole in the ground as all you have to go on is watching some games and reading draft sites with other people's opinions, still, I have learned a great deal from all of you about the draft. The considerations of talent evaluation, of trading picks, of different philosophies to name only a few.
So the draft is exciting for me not to see whom of you are right. But to see what our GM does and how it fits into the general consensus along with all the different draft philosophies. That gives me some indication beforehand as to what our team will do and how it will effect our roster and overall success.
I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground either concerning the draft or FA. But it sure is fun to watch and fun to read all the different things you guys are saying leading up to those huge events.
For a glass half full guy, you sure keep worrying about busted picks.
Mac, no doubt busted picks hurt a team. I just don't think you can draft taking that in to account.
You rate them out. You see how they will fit in to your program. If all that checks out, you draft them. You never sit there and wonder what's going to happen if the guy doesn't pan out. If you don't think he is going to pan out, you don't take him.
So if you are saying we shouldn't take him simply because he isn't good enough, cool. We all have opinions. If you are saying we shouldn't take him because if he busts it will set us back, then I think you are off base.
I'm not sure if this happens every year....
But it is Feb 20th here and I think discussing the draft is finished.
Pros and Cons covered, scenarios covered. Even once FA starts up and we see where Manning and Flynn go...we've discussed those scenarios already.
real dull the past few days. Might be that way until March 13th or mid april.
I don't think Manning is going anywhere right away...
Quote:
I'm not sure if this happens every year....
But it is Feb 20th here and I think discussing the draft is finished.
Pros and Cons covered, scenarios covered. Even once FA starts up and we see where Manning and Flynn go...we've discussed those scenarios already.
real dull the past few days. Might be that way until March 13th or mid april.
the Combine starts on Wednesday and there is sure to be much hyperpol to follow.
Quote:
I don't know my ass from a hole in the ground either concerning the draft or FA
Yet something else we have in common. I work every Saturday and see only a few bits and pieces of college games here and there, which is why you don't see me posting on Draft threads. I prefer not to pretend I know something when I don't have a clue unlike so many others on here
Classic misconception
The Draft is like stock market...you don't need to know (nobody really does anyway), just have a good feel and know who's judgement you trust...and lots of psychology involved
Nobody can tape scout 500+ prospects equally and not be biased...just got to know tendencies, patterns of who writes what he sees..sometimes you can make better judgements without ever having watchd a snap of a prospect...I'm living proof...we'd have a killer team would I have called the shots the last 5-6 drafts
You forgot to use the sarcasm font.
Quote:
You forgot to use the sarcasm font.
Well, lets hope he forgot to use the sarcasm font.
Quote:
Quote:
You forgot to use the sarcasm font.
Well, lets hope he forgot to use the sarcasm font.
LOL I think he was serious
Quote:
You forgot to use the sarcasm font.
Hehe, we had this discussion before on here...if you think Heckert or Holmgren watch 10+ games of 300+ prospects you're deluding yourself...that's why Savage was as frank to say he didn't know much about Beau Bell...you have area scouts, they do the detail stuff and file a prospect report...H&H read those...on high picks I'm sure they cross-scout a lot and come up with multiple reports and watch a lot of film too, but if you think they watch 300+ prospects for 30+h each (and that "just" be 1 season worth of tape), you're deluding yourself...I mean do the math...it's not humanly possible
I watch CFB, but that's never enough to have strong opinions...sure you tend to fall in love with the way some prospects play, but I actually consider this a downfall when it comes to rank those guys fairly at the end of the season. I can tell you that I read at least 5-7 very, very good TAPE reviews (I know when I read a c/p review and the internet is filled with them, so a good "filter" is needed) of at least 200+ prospects and I know who to trust on what etc. I know the "style" of writing of those guys and have a good feel when they're biased or too hard or giving players a pass.
I will take part in an annual 32 armchair GM mock that will last a month leading up to the draft and will post my results of past seasons (I can c/p them in here too or PM them if someone's interested)...I can tell you already that you will wish I would have called the shots those drafts, so my "system" works ...and again, I'm pretty positive that real GMs work the same way...just that they have much better (more detailed) reports and character background checks and interviews to go along with it
And more people care what they think.
Just giving you a hard time.
DJ,
There seems to be a double standard in this community. In that those who watch the NFL game feel it's okay to state their opinions and those who also watch and follow College football (astutely) are just a bunch of blow hard(s).
Funny how that works huh?
j/c
Saw this video on ESPN and figured I'd share.
Click here for the videoThe thing that struck me the most was just a few shots of him throwing downfield. I don't think Colt could ever make a throw like that. Granted, he is in shorts, but he looked good.
I ike the fact that he is so coachable, and picks things up quickly. Granted there is a difference between learning things on the practice field and translating that to the playing field, but given the improvement he made from last year to this year, I think that he can make a similar jump again to an NFL style of play.
Man I just hope it's here in Cleveland, because I would damn near bet money that this kid will be special.
I liked the video too.
He's got a more powerful base than I thought. I don't think Colt is squatting 700lbs. I still don't like his release but it's better than I've seen. He also was getting some of his lower body into his throws. Not all the rotational power but he was translating some of it.
I may be coming around on him.
He does seem like a coachable lad.
Man I wish he could go into a situation and sit for a year no matter what.
There are things that can be fixed that may make him a top level type guy. He's got some things you can't coach going for him too.
I just don't want to see him running around like Charlie Frye, freelancing and getting himself hurt.
There is going to be a bidding war for this kid.. And I gotta tell ya, he may get some consideration from the Colts as well. At least there, he can sit behind Manning for a year. Almost anywhere else he goes, he's gonna start from day one.
One thing I have to ask.. One of the problems people talked about with Brady Quinn was how bulked up he was.. I believe the term used was musclebound. This kid is cut like Quinn was also.. why is it a problem for Quinn but not RG3?
Not for nothing, but I remember seeing predraft vids like this on Quinn and frankly, in shorts, he was just as impressive..
I honestly don't know what to think.
I too think theres gonna be more teams than one might expect trying to get that #2 slot to grab the kid.
Ive ran hot and cold on the kid and his bust potential but watching the video all I had to see (and hear) were the "Yes sirs"! I think mental state, humbleness and respect plays into this alot! I didnt see any "Im a star attitude" and I like it!
I can support us more going strong for him just by this video.
He's a likeable young man!
Quote:
One thing I have to ask.. One of the problems people talked about with Brady Quinn was how bulked up he was.. I believe the term used was musclebound. This kid is cut like Quinn was also.. why is it a problem for Quinn but not RG3?
Quinn bulked up to the point that he lost a lot of flexibility. RGIII is ripped but not bulky.
Quote:
Quote:
One thing I have to ask.. One of the problems people talked about with Brady Quinn was how bulked up he was.. I believe the term used was musclebound. This kid is cut like Quinn was also.. why is it a problem for Quinn but not RG3?
Quinn bulked up to the point that he lost a lot of flexibility. RGIII is ripped but not bulky.
Exactly. I would bet that RG3 is far stronger than Quinn was (is) too.
Someone reminded me about Pat McManamon, so I decided to look him up on FoxSports and see what he thought about our Browns ......
And here's his latest thoughts ...... and he does bring up something I hadn't thought too much about ...... which is possibly keeping this year's 22 ..... and trading next year's #1 with some other picks from the mid/lower part of this year's draft. That could be a really interesting possibility. Imagine if we could get RG3 at #2, another big impact player at 22 ...... keep our 2nd rounder ....... and maybe even our 3rd .........
Man, grab a couple of impact players in free agency, along with 3 or 4 impact players from the draft, (including a franchise QB) and we could go from rebuilding to largely rebuilt in a year. That's actually a pretty exciting possibility. I do think that it starts with getting the QB right though.
Pat McManamon: Beside the Point
http://www.foxsportsohio.com/pages/beside_the_point
The Cleveland Browns have made a habit lately of trading down in the draft.
This year, if they trade, it might be up. That’s where the quarterback waits.
No matter the order, Andrew Luck and Robert Griffin III are virtually guaranteed to go 1-2 when NFL teams pick in April. Most have Luck going to the Colts with the first pick — the smartest move for Indianapolis. The Rams pick second, which means St. Louis figures to be the recipients of a bidding war from teams that want Griffin.
That bidding war could include any team — there’s always a surprise — but Cleveland, Washington and Miami are quarterback-needy teams drafting in the top 10. The price will be enough to make a general manger double-clutch his Wheaties.
Think of such players as Eli Manning, Ryan Leaf (yes, Leaf), Mike Vick and Jeff George. All were drafted first or second, and acquired for a pickup truck full of draft picks.
Some teams use a chart that gives a point value to each draft slot, with the first overall pick traditionally worth 3,000 points and the second pick 2,600.
Cleveland’s fourth pick is worth 1,800 points, Washington’s sixth worth 1,600 and Miami’s ninth worth 1,350. Only the Browns have two first-round picks this year. They also have the 22nd selection, which they acquired from Atlanta a year ago on draft day. That pick is valued at 780 points.
Could the Browns get the second pick from St. Louis for those two picks?
Not likely. The value of their two picks is 20 points light. But more important, precedent shows it takes multiple picks or players to acquire quarterbacks on or near draft day, not two:
• 2004: San Diego sent Manning to the Giants for two first-round picks, one third and one fifth.
• 2001: San Diego sent the pick for Vick to Atlanta for first-, second- and third-round choices and wide receiver Tim Dwight. The Chargers then used the first-round pick to take running back LaDainian Tomlinson.
• 1998: San Diego traded with Arizona to move up one spot, from third to second, to take Leaf. The Chargers gave up two first-rounders, a second and two players (including Eric Metcalf).
• 1990: The Colts gave up first- and fifth-round picks, plus two Pro Bowl players (Andre Rison and tackle Chris Hinton) to move up to take Jeff George and get a fourth-round pick thrown in.
• 1985: The Browns gave up two ones, a three and a six to get the supplemental draft pick used to acquire Bernie Kosar.
Times change and demands change, but clearly the starting point for any deal would be three high picks, two of which are first-rounders.
Miami would have to start with first-round choices this year and next. The Miami Herald speculated a trade from nine to two would require three first-rounders.
Washington, too, would have to include next year’s No. 1 pick and perhaps this year’s second and next year’s third.
Cleveland might be able to avoid giving up both its first rounders this year — general manager Tom Heckert and president Mike Holmgren have gone on record saying they got extra picks to rebuild the team — but it would have to give next year’s No. 1.
That might be palatable to the Browns because they would be getting two first-round players this year. They also have an extra pick in the fourth round.
Much has to shake out. The Seahawks also need a quarterback, so they, Miami or Washington could sign a free-agent such as Peyton Manning or Matt Flynn. If Washington goes with a veteran, Cleveland’s bargaining position improves — because nobody else could guarantee the Rams a top-six player.
Trading up to take a quarterback does not always work, as the Chargers can attest.
It also costs a lot.
But it has great potential rewards. Just ask the Giants.
Quote:
Quote:
One thing I have to ask.. One of the problems people talked about with Brady Quinn was how bulked up he was.. I believe the term used was musclebound. This kid is cut like Quinn was also.. why is it a problem for Quinn but not RG3?
Quinn bulked up to the point that he lost a lot of flexibility. RGIII is ripped but not bulky.
+1
There were a couple pictures of Quinn, and he looked like a gorilla, like "there's no way that guy's not juicing" type of look. Freakishly muscular and bulky. RG3 doesn't have the same look.
Quote:
• 2004: San Diego sent Manning to the Giants for two first-round picks, one third and one fifth.
• 2001: San Diego sent the pick for Vick to Atlanta for first-, second- and third-round choices and wide receiver Tim Dwight. The Chargers then used the first-round pick to take running back LaDainian Tomlinson.
• 1998: San Diego traded with Arizona to move up one spot, from third to second, to take Leaf. The Chargers gave up two first-rounders, a second and two players (including Eric Metcalf).
• 1990: The Colts gave up first- and fifth-round picks, plus two Pro Bowl players (Andre Rison and tackle Chris Hinton) to move up to take Jeff George and get a fourth-round pick thrown in.
• 1985: The Browns gave up two ones, a three and a six to get the supplemental draft pick used to acquire Bernie Kosar.
But it has great potential rewards. Just ask the Giants.
Why don't we ask the Chargers, Colt's or Atlanta? Jeff George, Ryan Leaf, Mike Vick? Those are the realistic possibilities of what we could end up with. Not a chance I want to take at all.
Quote:
Quote:
• 2004: San Diego sent Manning to the Giants for two first-round picks, one third and one fifth.
• 2001: San Diego sent the pick for Vick to Atlanta for first-, second- and third-round choices and wide receiver Tim Dwight. The Chargers then used the first-round pick to take running back LaDainian Tomlinson.
• 1998: San Diego traded with Arizona to move up one spot, from third to second, to take Leaf. The Chargers gave up two first-rounders, a second and two players (including Eric Metcalf).
• 1990: The Colts gave up first- and fifth-round picks, plus two Pro Bowl players (Andre Rison and tackle Chris Hinton) to move up to take Jeff George and get a fourth-round pick thrown in.
• 1985: The Browns gave up two ones, a three and a six to get the supplemental draft pick used to acquire Bernie Kosar.
But it has great potential rewards. Just ask the Giants.
Why don't we ask the Chargers, Colt's or Atlanta? Jeff George, Ryan Leaf, Mike Vick? Those are the realistic possibilities of what we could end up with. Not a chance I want to take at all.
While true, we have to pull the trigger sometime, or all we're gonna continue to see is the same crap that we have been. IF they feel that RGIII is their guy, then go get him IMO.
As someone stated in here somewhere, if a sure thing is what your looking for, then the draft isn't for you.
Quote:
While true, we have to pull the trigger sometime, or all we're gonna continue to see is the same crap that we have been.
Exactly. You can't win the raffle if you don't buy a ticket.
So you can mention all the busts (and I wouldn't consider Vick bust at all), but the players that made it don't count?
I am not for drafting RGIII but this is a very flawed argument. Just because drafting QB's have busted before doesn't mean no one should draft one. So the Colts shouldn't draft Luck because of Jeff George? The Panthers obviously shouldn't have drafted Cam Newton.
Like I said, I am not on the RGIII bandwagon, but if it is determined he is the guy then you have to do everything you can to get him. If think he's worth the 4th pick then he is worth trading up for. If he played any other position then I would say no. But QB is the most important position in any sport.
Quote:
QB is the most important position in any sport.
I think the golfer is the most important position in golf. Same goes for boxing and tennis and most other individual sports. But i digress.
Interesting, yeah...why don't we ask them...I think their GMs didn't whine like you do and went back and took another chance on a QB some drafts later...and look...now they have Rivers, Manning and Ryan
Also, what's your point? high picked QBs bust? BE, Warren, M.Williams, Gholston, Gallery etc etc happens at other positions too
Real GMs pick with their roster in mind and how they best can improve their team...if the draft was all about selecting the safest player you'd see a lot of MLBs, Gs and RBs in the top 10
Is there a font color for snark?
Quote:
So you can mention all the busts (and I wouldn't consider Vick bust at all), but the players that made it don't count?
I am not for drafting RGIII but this is a very flawed argument. Just because drafting QB's have busted before doesn't mean no one should draft one. So the Colts shouldn't draft Luck because of Jeff George? The Panthers obviously shouldn't have drafted Cam Newton.
Like I said, I am not on the RGIII bandwagon, but if it is determined he is the guy then you have to do everything you can to get him. If think he's worth the 4th pick then he is worth trading up for. If he played any other position then I would say no. But QB is the most important position in any sport.
I wouldn't consider Vick a Franchise QB either. He's not even with the same team that drafted him. You don't have to do everything to get him like you said. The Giants are the only one's that did and that was by default. Did Green Bay trade up to draft Rogers? Did Pittsburgh trade up to draft Roethlesberger? Let alone give up the farm for them. When you act in dire, things very seldom go right in any facet of life. So I don't know where some of you come up with that line of thinking because it is not true and has been fabricated to fit a certain viewpoint that frankly is flawed. You can ask the Giant's if you want, I just offered the alternative to him asking them. Griffin is nowhere near the QB Manning was coming out of College..not even close and Manning was almost written off after his first three years and if it wasn't for his draft status or ended up on a team like the Brown's or was a lower round QB or the Giants didn't have patience then he might have been. Teams like Green Bay, Pittsburgh, New England, etc. all let the QB come to them. They built their teams, were established in their philosophies and had the proper personell and weren't in a building process or just learning a system with young inexperienced players all around them. The fact that I want to stay as far away from Griffin even at four has a lot to do with him and my feeling that he will bust if he comes here but also because I have a different philosophy of building the team with high end talent, and being entrenched in a system with experience and cohesion and consistency first. Once the team can carry a young QB and help him be succesful then you can see if he has it or you find the guy that does and plug him in and he has a better chance of succeeding.
Quote:
Interesting, yeah...why don't we ask them...I think their GMs didn't whine like you do and went back and took another chance on a QB some drafts later...and look...now they have Rivers, Manning and Ryan
Who is whining? You have a screw loose.. 
I didn't even read anything after that, because you clearly have a vendetta.
Quote:
Is there a font color for snark?
Django or is it Django ehh?
Look at the Panthers, who took Claussen in the 2nd, then still took Newton in the 1st. Claussen was just awful ...... and they could have said "Oh well, we have one bust on the roster, why risk another ...."
In the days before this latest CBA, it would have been difficult to take 2 QBs high within 2-3 drafts of each other. Teams were typically locked into pretty expensive contracts that made it difficult to do so.
We don't have to worry about that today.
Besides, we have seen busts at almost every position imaginable anyway.
We busted 2 QBs in Couch and Quinn.
We busted 2 DL in Brown and Warren.
We busted with Will Green.
Who can forget "Touchdown Tommy"? How about our 2nd round WR that year, Patrick Rowe ..... with 3 career catches? (and 1 fumble)
Who remembers Clifford Charlton?
Yeah .... we've busted a lot. It happens ..... and we've made it happen all over the field. We've never really found many of those superstars though. That's really what the NFL is today ...... a competent team with a few key superstars. Look at the Packers in 2010. They lost much of their team to injury ..... yet still managed to win a Super Bowl, because they didn't lose their most important key pieces.
Comparing anyone to Russel is highly ridiculous...
ESPECIALLY people that have already shown the desire to put work in and get better, which both Luck and Griffin have...
Quote:
Comparing anyone to Russel is highly ridiculous...
ESPECIALLY people that have already shown the desire to put work in and get better, which both Luck and Griffin have...
Who's comparing the players?
I just posted links what what was written about JaMarcus Russell prior to him being drafted.
You're jumping to conclusions, OSGuy.
Quote:
I wouldn't consider Vick a Franchise QB either. He's not even with the same team that drafted him.
But he was a franchise QB for the team that did draft him.
Quote:
Let alone give up the farm for them.
Two first rounders is not exactly "the farm".
Quote:
Griffin is nowhere near the QB Manning was coming out of College
I would say he is near him. From everything I've learned about RGIII over the past couple months it seems that he is a pretty good passer.
Quote:
Teams like Green Bay, Pittsburgh, New England, etc. all let the QB come to them.
Pittsburgh, yes. Green Bay had no plans on drafting a QB, but pretty much had to with the way their board was constructed. New England? They totally expected their 6th round pick to be a franchise QB.
Robert Griffin III ready to talk at NFL combine
FORT WORTH, Texas (AP) - Robert Griffin III is looking forward to sitting down and talking with NFL executives and coaches during the NFL combine.
While they know about Griffin being the first Heisman Trophy winner from Baylor, and all the records and big numbers he put up, the quarterback realizes many still have questions about him and the Bears' potent spread-formation offense.
"I'm excited to wow them in the interviews with the type of offense that we run, just so they can understand it's not as simple as some people make our spread out to be. It's a different kind of spread,'' Griffin said. "Although I don't agree with it, but people say I just burst on the scene this year, so no one knows much about me, whether NFL GMs or analysts, so I get a chance to put my best foot forward.''
Griffin was in Fort Worth on Monday night to accept the Davey O'Brien Award that recognizes the nation's top quarterback.
When the NFL draft takes place in two months, Griffin wants to be the first quarterback selected even though most projections have Stanford's Andrew Luck going first overall to the Indianapolis Colts.
"We both want to be the best, we both want to be No. 1. Whether I get drafted first or not, it's not going to change the way I play,'' Griffin said. "All I can say, it's about motivation. You never want to feel like everybody thinks you're a sure thing in life because it can rob you of your motivation to go out and get better.''
Griffin insisted he has no hints of what might happen on draft day, but said when he went to Indianapolis during Super Bowl week that fans there were telling him they wanted him to come there. RG3 added that he hopes Peyton Manning stays in Indianapolis, because "he's a legend and deserves that.''
Along with the interviews later this week at the NFL combine, Griffin plans to run the 40-yard dash and do other drills.
But Griffin said he likely won't throw in Indianapolis. He will instead save that for his pro day March 21, which has been moved up a day to avoid going at the same time as the pro day for Luck, the Heisman runner-up.
Griffin has been working extensively with quarterback consultant Terry Shea preparing for the NFL combine and his pro day. They have done a lot of work on the dual-threat quarterback's foot work.
"Just getting used to the type of routes you have to throw at the next level,'' Griffin said. "Basically just trying to find the best way to allow my skills to shine, whether that's my quick release or just my ability to drive the football down the field.
"It's like a performance when it comes to your pro day and when you're throwing. It's exactly like a performance, you've just got to memorize the script and go out and execute to the best of your ability,'' he said. "Once you get drafted, you can go to your team and learn the grand scheme of things.''
Griffin set or tied 54 school records in 41 games at Baylor, which last season tied a school record with 10 wins - the other 10-win season was in 1980 during Mike Singletary's senior year. The Bears won their last six games in 2011, and the record-setting 67-56 victory over Washington in the Alamo Bowl was their first bowl victory since 1992.
Griffin is the school's career passing leader, completing 800 of 1,192 passes (67 percent) for 10,366 yards and 78 touchdowns with 17 interceptions. His 2,254 yards and 33 TDs rushing are records for a Bears quarterback.
Sure, those numbers were made possible by Baylor's offensive scheme. But Griffin said it was based on plenty of pro-style principles.
"At first glance, they see four or five wide receivers, a lot of motion, a lot of different sets of formations,'' Griffin said. "If you take it from that aspect, it's exactly the same things that the pros do, go two-tight, four wide and two tight ends, and tight end at running back like the Patriots do.''
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/fo...l#ixzz1mye5i2Hc
Quote:
And some write-ups about JaMarcus Russell.
http://www.fantasyfootballjungle.com/nfl_draft_prospect/us/548?id=548
http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/draft07/news/story?id=2793098
http://www.fftoolbox.com/nfl_draft/profile_display.cfm?prospect_id=1147
http://www.nfldraftscout.com/ratings/dsprofile.php?pyid=17117&draftyear=2007&genpos=
http://s8.invisionfree.com/Sports_Line/ar/t299.htm
I'm not saying, just saying...
Griffin sure did make himself some money and the way he shot his draft stock up to the front of the line is nothing short of amazing. I can't recall a guy going from a 3rd round prospect with major flaws to an elite passer like him in one season. Everything about him screams buyer beware to me. If Heckert and Holmy think he can be good then I will buy it. It's not that I don't think a guy can improve because I do and obviously he has. Personally I would rather have Luck, Tannenhill and Weedon before him.
Draft Bible scouting report prior to this year.
2011 Preseason Skinny: The electrifying Griffin is an extremely quick footed and gifted athlete that is also an All American hurdler for the school’s track team. He has the quick twitch ability and excellent field vision to make him deadly as a scrambler in the open field. While Griffin is explosive, he lacks the strength on his throws to drive the football on a line to his receivers and he also has less than ideal height. His ability to scan through a defense is also lacking with some questionable decisions and even though he possesses some short range accuracy, he struggles with his placement on the deep ball. His athletic ability is very intriguing but he’ll need to improve his accuracy and timing throws before he can be considered an elite passer. However, some believe that a strong season could sway Griffin to forego his senior season and enter the NFL Draft. Source: NFL Draft Bible Big 12 Prospect Watch
Quote:
I can't recall a guy going from a 3rd round prospect with major flaws to an elite passer like him in one season.
What about Cam Newton? I had never even heard of him before the start of the 2010 college season.
His scouting report doesn't matter prior to this year. Whatever questions there were about his arm, he answered them.
yeah, but... that was like, a year ago.
Quote:
Quote:
I can't recall a guy going from a 3rd round prospect with major flaws to an elite passer like him in one season.
What about Cam Newton? I had never even heard of him before the start of the 2010 college season.
His scouting report doesn't matter prior to this year. Whatever questions there were about his arm, he answered them.
His arm? Maybe.
His ability to be successful as a QB? We shall see.
Is it just me?
Or is RG III's self-promotion becoming an issue?
Seems like I keep hearing him talking about himself...not something I like.
I think this guy is going to bust.
From everything I've heard his arm is not a problem.
Quote:
His ability to be successful as a QB?
...in the NFL. You can ask that question about any player though. Griffin has been a successful QB at the college level.
How did I end up being the one defending a guy I don't want to draft?
Quote:
From everything I've heard his arm is not a problem.
Quote:
His ability to be successful as a QB?
...in the NFL. You can ask that question about any player though. Griffin has been a successful QB at the college level.
How did I end up being the one defending a guy I don't want to draft?
Just debate...it's all good...I'm not seeing you as defending anyone.
I was talking about Newton regarding arm and ability to be successful.
Everyone is self-promoter at this point in the off-season. He's trying to overtake Luck as the #1 pick.
Quote:
Everyone is self-promoter at this point in the off-season. He's trying to overtake Luck as the #1 pick.
I agree. However...
I'm not hearing anything from Luck...or anyone else for that matter.
Quote:
From everything I've heard his arm is not a problem.
Quote:
His ability to be successful as a QB?
...in the NFL. You can ask that question about any player though. Griffin has been a successful QB at the college level.
How did I end up being the one defending a guy I don't want to draft?
I wouldn't mind getting him. (HEY, all you people that think I'm a Colt guy through and through - did you GET THAT? ) I just don't want to trade too much to get him.
I read - golly, several months ago - don't know when - but an article in Sports Illustrated about Griffin. After reading it, I thought "Now here's a very athletic guy, having success, very smart/intelligent, from a good background (meaning I thought he was well grounded).........I wonder if he'll have success in the nfl?
I still think all of that about him.
Using #4 on him would be a good pick imo.
Unless he becomes like an Owens, or ochocinco, in self promotion - that doesn't bother me.
Quote:
Using #4 on him would be a good pick imo.
As others have said. If you think he is worth the #4 pick, then he is worth trading up for because he is a QB.
If you don't have a QB you have to get one. And trading the 4 and 22 for a franchise QB is not that much to pay for a franchise QB.
Quote:
Quote:
Using #4 on him would be a good pick imo.
As others have said. If you think he is worth the #4 pick, then he is worth trading up for because he is a QB.
If you don't have a QB you have to get one. And trading the 4 and 22 for a franchise QB is not that much to pay for a franchise QB.
Does anyone believe that he is a shoe-in to be a franchise QB?
I don't think even YTown believes that (Not saying that YOU think so...just sayin')
I don't think anyone thinks he is a shoe-in to become a franchise QB. Even Luck isn't a shoe-in, he just has more of a chance than a normal QB prospect would. If RGIII was a shoe-in he would be the #1 pick and Luck would be ours.
Quote:
FORT WORTH, TEXAS: Robert Griffin III is looking forward to sitting down and talking with NFL executives and coaches during the NFL combine.
While they know about Griffin being the first Heisman Trophy winner from Baylor, and all the records and big numbers he put up, the quarterback realizes many still have questions about him and the Bears’ potent spread-formation offense.
“I’m excited to wow them in the interviews with the type of offense that we run, just so they can understand it’s not as simple as some people make our spread out to be. It’s a different kind of spread,” Griffin said. “Although I don’t agree with it, but people say I just burst on the scene this year, so no one knows much about me, whether NFL GMs or analysts, so I get a chance to put my best foot forward.”
Griffin was in Fort Worth on Monday night to accept the Davey O’Brien Award that recognizes the nation’s top quarterback.
When the NFL draft takes place in two months, Griffin wants to be the first quarterback selected even though most projections have Stanford’s Andrew Luck going first overall to the Indianapolis Colts.
“We both want to be the best, we both want to be No. 1. Whether I get drafted first or not, it’s not going to change the way I play,” Griffin said. “All I can say, it’s about motivation. You never want to feel like everybody thinks you’re a sure thing in life because it can rob you of your motivation to go out and get better.”
Griffin insisted he has no hints of what might happen on draft day, but said when he went to Indianapolis during Super Bowl week that fans there were telling him they wanted him to come there. RG3 added that he hopes Peyton Manning stays in Indianapolis, because “he’s a legend and deserves that.”
Along with the interviews later this week at the NFL combine, Griffin plans to run the 40-yard dash and do other drills.
But Griffin said he likely won’t throw in Indianapolis. He will instead save that for his pro day March 21, which has been moved up a day to avoid going at the same time as the pro day for Luck, the Heisman runner-up.
Griffin has been working extensively with quarterback consultant Terry Shea preparing for the NFL combine and his pro day. They have done a lot of work on the dual-threat quarterback’s foot work.
“Just getting used to the type of routes you have to throw at the next level,” Griffin said. “Basically just trying to find the best way to allow my skills to shine, whether that’s my quick release or just my ability to drive the football down the field.
“It’s like a performance when it comes to your pro day and when you’re throwing. It’s exactly like a performance, you’ve just got to memorize the script and go out and execute to the best of your ability,” he said. “Once you get drafted, you can go to your team and learn the grand scheme of things.”
Griffin set or tied 54 school records in 41 games at Baylor, which last season tied a school record with 10 wins — the other 10-win season was in 1980 during Mike Singletary’s senior year. The Bears won their last six games in 2011, and the record-setting 67-56 victory over Washington in the Alamo Bowl was their first bowl victory since 1992.
Griffin is the school’s career passing leader, completing 800 of 1,192 passes (67 percent) for 10,366 yards and 78 touchdowns with 17 interceptions. His 2,254 yards and 33 TDs rushing are records for a Bears quarterback.
Sure, those numbers were made possible by Baylor’s offensive scheme. But Griffin said it was based on plenty of pro-style principles.
“At first glance, they see four or five wide receivers, a lot of motion, a lot of different sets of formations,” Griffin said. “If you take it from that aspect, it’s exactly the same things that the pros do, go two-tight, four wide and two tight ends, and tight end at running back like the Patriots do.”
Akron Beacon Journal
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Using #4 on him would be a good pick imo.
As others have said. If you think he is worth the #4 pick, then he is worth trading up for because he is a QB.
If you don't have a QB you have to get one. And trading the 4 and 22 for a franchise QB is not that much to pay for a franchise QB.
Does anyone believe that he is a shoe-in to be a franchise QB?
I don't think even YTown believes that (Not saying that YOU think so...just sayin')
I don't think that any player is a shoe-in, ever.
Any player is an injury away from busting. Any player could have some issue that causes then to struggle. A player could have a family issue that causes him problems. He could be in the completely wrong scheme for what he does well. He could be immature, and simply not committed enough to succeed in the NFL. He could just plain not be smart enough to be able to run an offense, or adjust on the fly from positions that require a read/adjust like WR. There could be any number of reasons a player busts.
Even RG3, as I have repeatedly acknowledged, has some bust potential. I happen to think that it is low given his experience, ability to make every throw, and intelligence .... but it is there nonetheless. I also think that he has, quite possibly, the biggest superstar upside of anyone in this draft. I'd take a small chance of busting vs a moderate chance of being a superstar any day.
Quote:
As others have said. If you think he is worth the #4 pick, then he is worth trading up for because he is a QB.
I disagree. I think he's worth a #4. I do NOT think he's worth a #4, a #22, plus. Fairly simple concept really. Is Blackmon worth a 4? Some think so - so, you would say he's worth a #4 and a #22 as well?
I don't care if he's a qb or not. That has no bearing on my opinion.
Quote:
If you don't have a QB you have to get one. And trading the 4 and 22 for a franchise QB is not that much to pay for a franchise QB.
Stop with this "franchise" crap. Please, for the love of GOD - stop with the "franchise" crap!
You have NO idea what he'll be like in the nfl - him, or any other pick.
Quinn was a "franchise" pick. Where's he? In denver, sitting 3rd string and selling out his team.
Smith was a "franchise" pick (alex smith), took him 7 years to do anything?
Ryan Leaf was a "franchise" pick.
Etc etc etc.
We have needs all over. We have picks. If Griffin is there at 4, take him. If not, don't.
Newton was a "franchise" pick. What did he do? Lead his team to 6 wins.
Barkley was a "franchise" pick - till he decided to stay in school.
Harrington, Akili Smith.............the list goes on and on.
There is NO "franchise" pick. Ever.
If the Browns were only a qb away from being a top notch team, I would change my opinion on trading away a bunch of picks. We aren't.
If you lived in a shack and rode a bicycle to work, yet you somehow came into $100,000 - would you blow all that on a car to get to work, while you still lived in a shack?
Quote:
Is it just me?
Or is RG III's self-promotion becoming an issue?
Seems like I keep hearing him talking about himself...not something I like.
I think this guy is going to bust.
So when people ask him questions about himself, should he talk about Tannehill instead?
Quote:
Quote:
Is it just me?
Or is RG III's self-promotion becoming an issue?
Seems like I keep hearing him talking about himself...not something I like.
I think this guy is going to bust.
So when people ask him questions about himself, should he talk about Tannehill instead?
hmmm, might not be a bad option.
asks him about his touch on the deep ball. so, he brings up tape on the 2nd half in the Aggie game vs. Oklahoma and asks what they think about the touch on Tannehill's deep ball.
asks him about his pocket presense, so he brings up the Aggies game vs. the Longhorns and asks how well they think Tannehill does under pressure.
he might lose some points for disparaging his opponents though
Quote:
I don't care if he's a qb or not. That has no bearing on my opinion.
And that's why you lose the argument. No matter what you think, quarterback is more valuable than any other position. There is no, "I agree to disagree" bull crap. It is pretty cut and dry. QB > every other position.
Quote:
Stop with this "franchise" crap. Please, for the love of GOD - stop with the "franchise" crap!
You have NO idea what he'll be like in the nfl - him, or any other pick.
When you draft a player you project what he will be in the future. Some may project RGIII to be a franchise QB. Yes, that happens.
Quote:
If you lived in a shack and rode a bicycle to work, yet you somehow came into $100,000 - would you blow all that on a car to get to work, while you still lived in a shack?
So if we traded #4 and #22 for the #2 that would be blowing everything? Wouldn't we still have the rest of the draft to improve our team? If I'm not mistaken, normally we only have one first round pick so I would just be like any other draft.
Bottom line. Your priorities are messed up. You think QB's aren't more valuable than the other positions. They are. You are wrong.
Jeez man. All this for a player I don't even want to take.
I see your argument on the other issues,, but on the value of a trade up,, we are going to disagree.
If a guy falls to you at 4 and you like him, take him.
if you gotta move up to get him at 2, you will have to give up more than JUST the 4th pick.., You are talking about the 4, 22 and beyond (how far beyond I don't know but some experts are saying it will take the browns first 4 picks of this draft or the first three of this draft and the 1st from next year to move up to get the second pick)
So, what you are giving up to get the second pick is anywhere from 2 to 3 additional high drafts picks this year and potentially next.
And yeah, that will hurt the team in the short run.. and if the guy you get busts,, oh brother.
Quote:
Is it just me?
Or is RG III's self-promotion becoming an issue?
Seems like I keep hearing him talking about himself...not something I like.
I think this guy is going to bust.
If they ask him about himself, he'll talk about himself. I've heard enough of his interviews that I think it's much more self confidence/swagger than anything else and that's absolutely something I want in a QB. I love that he's taking on Luck as the #1 instead of just sitting back and letting it happen. The key is, when he's talking about his TEAM, he rarely busts into the me me me crap. It's almost always "we" with RGIII. Even when he was talking about his Heisman, he made it sound like it was Baylor's/his teammates' award as much as his own.
I think the more people hear from him, the more they're going to love. He's simply a class act.
Just a general Question for anyone. If Griffin comes in at 6' even or under 6'1 would it have any bearing on what you think? Right now he is listed as 6'3 and some places I see 6'2. He does have some hair up there.
Quote:
Just a general Question for anyone. If Griffin comes in at 6' even or under 6'1 would it have any bearing on what you think? Right now he is listed as 6'3 and some places I see 6'2. He does have some hair up there.
I've been projecting Griffin at 6'1" flat for awhile - and I think that could hurt him quite a bit for three reasons:
1.) An existing concern is his ability to move under center - lack of height is a much bigger problem there than in the shotgun.
2.) His release point is already quite low.
3.) He does historically have quite a few balls batted down at the line (2-3 per game) - this will only get worse in the NFL.
There's a huge hype machine behind Griffin right now - but I could still envision a Rodgers like fall to the tens or 20s.
Quote:
Just a general Question for anyone. If Griffin comes in at 6' even or under 6'1 would it have any bearing on what you think? Right now he is listed as 6'3 and some places I see 6'2. He does have some hair up there.
I myself am not sold on the traditional "prototypical" stereo type.
Height can help, but lack of it is not a purely defining "measurable" in my opinion.
I highly doubt he is 6'3". I question 6'2". Even at 6'1" I wouldn't rule someone out.
I don't buy into the whole "you have to be tall to see the receivers" stuff. Granted, you can't be 5'8", that would be a hindrance.
Honestly - the whole "oh, your linemen are 6'5" and you need to be able to see over them " thing - I don't buy into that. Ever seen a lineman stand up straight when he's blocking?
Quote:
Ever seen a lineman stand up straight when he's blocking?
yeah, basically every RT that has started for us not named Ryan Tucker.
I dont think he will fall to far simply because the Redskins love the kid. Shannahan likes that rolling pocket to extend plays and give the receivers time to get open.
Quote:
Quote:
Ever seen a lineman stand up straight when he's blocking?
yeah, basically every RT that has started for us not named Ryan Tucker.
Well............I should've said "ever see a good O lineman standing straight up when blocking." My bad.
Quote:
Just a general Question for anyone. If Griffin comes in at 6' even or under 6'1 would it have any bearing on what you think? Right now he is listed as 6'3 and some places I see 6'2. He does have some hair up there.
I'm expecting him to come in at 6'1 1/2 which I'd be totally cool with and I'm cautiously optimistic he'll be taller. Anything taller than that is a plus. I think anything under 6'1" would give people a bit of pause and anything at or under 6'0" would be a hit to him although Vick is 6'0" so who knows.
He was listed coming out of HS as 6'3" and in college as 6'2", I can't imagine they inflated his height 2-3 inches on two different occasions.
Quote:
Quote:
Is it just me?
Or is RG III's self-promotion becoming an issue?
Seems like I keep hearing him talking about himself...not something I like.
I think this guy is going to bust.
So when people ask him questions about himself, should he talk about Tannehill instead?
Is there anyone else in this draft besides RG III? One might think not.
Sorry...I still see too much self-promotion for my liking.
I was just reading one guy saying they are fearful he will come in at 6' or closer to it. Then I just heard Fox just ask a scout if he comes in at 6' and 200 pounds if that will hurt him. I didn't get to hear the answer. Anytime I read that questioned about him they go on to talk about his athletic ability.
Quote:
Just a general Question for anyone. If Griffin comes in at 6' even or under 6'1 would it have any bearing on what you think? Right now he is listed as 6'3 and some places I see 6'2.
No. My opinion of him is from watching him play 6 full games this year and parts of others. Not from a half inch here or there.
Quote:
He does have some hair up there.
Sorry, I don't judge QBs on how much hair they have "up there."
Quote:
Quote:
Just a general Question for anyone. If Griffin comes in at 6' even or under 6'1 would it have any bearing on what you think? Right now he is listed as 6'3 and some places I see 6'2.
No. My opinion of him is from watching him play 6 full games this year and parts of others. Not from a half inch here or there.
Quote:
He does have some hair up there.
Sorry, I don't judge QBs on how much hair they have "up there."
Yeah..maybe you judge on how much he has "down there" 
..No one asked if you judge a QB on how much hair he has Up there..not sure where your mind is?
You know I have been thinking about this and I truly think Washington will hold the keys to how the draft shakes out.
My assumption is based on the fact that (regardless of what the Browns WILL do) we can do 1 of three things.
Scenario 1. We can trade UP to try and land Griffin
Scenario 2. We can sit where we are and take him at 4 if he falls (or just go another player)
Scenario 3. We can let him fall to 4 and then trade down so another team can secure him.
IF Washington is out of the picture by signing Manning or Flynn then I say we are really in a great position to not need to move up. St. Louis would need to make a deal with Miami OR Seattle as the only real partners and by then the Elite talent is gone (could happen ... but imagine what St. Louis would want to drop into the 10 or so range instead of taking the second best player).
But, if Washington signs no-one then they are probably going to want Griffin. Do you really think Shannahan wants to go into the season with sexy-rexy as his guy?
To me we will know what we have to do simply by where Manning signs (assuming we know where he goes) and Flynn signs.
There is also the possibility that WE sign Flynn ... but that would also forecast what our plans are pertaining to Griffin.
So as much as we might like or dislike him ... depending on where the QB's sign in Free Agency we will know what will happen. My hope? Manning and Flynn sign with Washington and Miami and then we can either take Griffin at 4
OR we could even trade down to Seattle's pick (11th or 12th subject to coin toss).
Using the almighty see-all-end-all draft chart we can tell that the #4 is 1800 points. If Seattle has the 11th (1250 points) then they also have the 44th (460 points) which puts them at 1710 or about 90 points short. If it's the 12th pick (1200 points) then it's the 45th overall as well (450 points). This puts them at 1650 or about 150 points short. If you factor in the value for QB's then it wouldn't be unreasonable to trade the #4 for the #11 / 12, the #44 / 45, and then demand a first or a second in next years draft as well.
We could still wind up with a pick at 11 or 12 (maybe enough to get Richardson? He MIGHT just fall) and then have an extra pick in the top 45 still as well as adding one next year. OR maybe we use that #11 or 12 on any number of needs. Tannehill (as some on here have fallen in love with him)? How about Reiff / Coples / Mercilus / Martin / Keuchly / or any other one of those "good" players who wouldn't merit the #4 overall selection but could still be great talent while still adding another 2nd and a pick next year?
Quote:
Yeah..maybe you judge on how much he has "down there" ..No one asked if you judge a QB on how much hair he has Up there..not sure where your mind is?
I was quoting your post.
I'm sorry, next time I'll include how much hair is "down there" in my scouting report. It's a very important metric. 
Quote:
Quote:
Yeah..maybe you judge on how much he has "down there" ..No one asked if you judge a QB on how much hair he has Up there..not sure where your mind is?
I was quoting your post.
I'm sorry, next time I'll include how much hair is "down there" in my scouting report. It's a very important metric.
You quoted my post and then went on to say you don't judge a QB on how much hair he has up there. That wasn't the question. You answered the question with your first quote. Yeah, you should do that next time..
Quote:
Quote:
Ever seen a lineman stand up straight when he's blocking?
yeah, basically every RT that has started for us not named Ryan Tucker.
Yeah and there usually left sitting on their keysters
I posted a picture from the Heismans, and RG3 looked almost exactly the same height as Luck ........ maybe 1/2" shorter, if that .....
I think that Griffin tends to slouch a bit, and that makes him look shorter. I think that he'll come in within 1/2 inch of 6'2". I have also heard a couple of interviews with his former teammates, and they have all said that he is a legit 6'2". I think that Taylor might be one of them.
Also, last year we used Jordan Norwood's father (an assistant coach at Baylor) as a source of information on Taylor before we drafted him. I could see us doing the same with RG3 this year.
I don't under stand all the hub bub about his height ... The kids at least a smig taller then any QB on our current roster.
I think it's a moot point. Maybe not to every team, but there certainly isn't that bias here in Cleveland.
This was a good read and I started writing about this earlier. I see a lot of articles and analyst say they will have to adjust some things around Griffin and change things up a bit. I just don't see them changing anything to fit a player in. Anyway..I am interested in finding that Carucci article he referred to.
Brown's face tough decision at QB I was in Cleveland the day LeBron announced he would be taking his talents to South Beach. I’ve performed music in Cleveland more times than I can count. One of the things I enjoy about touring is getting to meet sports fans of all different teams, and walks of life. In that one day I gained more respect for Cleveland as a fan base than I have for any other in my life.
The sense of absolute misery that overtook everyone – from gas station attendants to elite music promoters and executives – was overwhelming. Even dogs walked around aimlessly, looking like they had been recently kicked. Cleveland is a city that lives vicariously through their professional sports franchises. Win or lose (and there’s been a lot more “lose” both recently and historically) the fans there take it personally. I love that about them.
Now, the Cleveland Browns are at a crossroads. Coming off a disappointing 4-12 season in 2011, the organization is faced with a monumental decision: What to do at quarterback, the league’s most vital position. My friends, my loyal readers, my fellow students of NFL sickness; it is here you will learn that whatever road Cleveland takes from their present situation into the wild blue yonder will come through Central Texas.
Browns QB Colt McCoy needs little introduction around these parts. While at the University of Texas, he broke nearly every Longhorn single-season and career QB record and took home 13 of 15 major QB awards his senior season as a Heisman and national championship finalist. McCoy is tough, gritty, smart, elusive, and accurate which makes up for his “so-so” arm strength. After being drafted in the third round and getting to start in spot duty in 2010, Colt came into the 2011 season as the Browns’ starting QB in a West Coast system that many close to the team thought he was beginning to get a good grasp of. The Browns’ season went on to be hampered by brutal injuries along the offensive line, a constant merry-go-round freak show at the running back position, and a complete lack of playmaking ability at WR. McCoy was lost for the season to a concussion suffered in Pittsburgh during week 13 via an illegal James Harrison hit. When the dust settled on the Browns’ 2011 season, only three numbers really mattered, though: 4, 12, and 0. Four wins, 12 Losses, and zero career wins for Colt McCoy against AFC North division opponents.
There’s a kid from up the road you might have heard of named Robert Griffin III. The Heisman-winning Baylor QB represents most everything a team looking for revitalization on offense could ask for. He has a big arm, he’s smart, he’s a great leader, and he exhibits excellent downfield vision and elite running ability. The best part: He does not rely on his feet to bail him out. Unlike most elite running QBs, he will always look to make the play with his arm first, sometimes taking brutal hits to remain in the pocket until his receiver comes open.
The Browns have two first-round picks in this year’s NFL draft. Pick No. 4 and pick No. 22. I will be attending the NFL Scouting Combine in Indianapolis next week, and was invited for inclusion in Mike Mayock’s NFL Combine media conference call, where I had a chance to address the Cleveland QB issue. His thoughts were much different from those of NFL writing legend and Senior Editor for the Browns Vic Carucci who we spoke with in Mobile, Ala., earlier this month at the Senior Bowl.
Lets start at the top: The Colts will take Andrew Luck (QB, Stanford) with pick one. Saint Louis picks second. They have too much money tied up in Sam Bradford to even consider a QB. Their reasonable options are as follows: Matt Kalil (OT, USC), Justin Blackmon (WR, Oklahoma State), Morris Claiborne (CB, LSU) or in the best case scenario, trade out of the pick to someone who wants Robert Griffin and accumulate more picks through the very valuable late first, second, and third rounds. The two teams thought to be interested in possibly trading up are the Redskins and the Browns. At pick three, the Vikings would love to have Kalil fall to them, as LT is their single biggest need. If he is not there and Griffin is still on the board, they will try to trade down to a team wanting Griffin as the Vikes reached to draft QB Christian Ponder in last year’s draft. If they cannot trade down and Kalil is gone, I expect them to take Morris Claiborne at this point. Now we come to the Browns at pick four (assuming they did not trade up.) If Griffin is there … should they take him?
I say no.
“We haven’t seen an athlete like RG3 in many drafts,” Mike Mayock, lead draft analyst for the NFL Network told me. “The chance that the Browns may be able to get him, that’s exciting. It will be a ride, that’s for sure. There are a few flaws to his game, mainly lack of anticipation and waiting on plays to develop leading to too many big hits, but the bottom line is the kid is a playmaker.”
To me, the issue is not about Griffin’s playmaking ability or even his ability to be an elite NFL QB. I see the issue as being the system. Browns GM Mike Holgren is a Bill Walsh disciple. He has been building championship variations of the West Coast offense for almost 30 years now. In coming to Cleveland, he put his managerial trust in Head Coach Pat Shurmur who runs what he likes to call a “pure” form of the West Coast offense. Vic Carrucci affirmed our suggestion that there is generally a three-year learning curve for QBs developing into this kind of system. He went on to say that many decision-makers within the organization were beginning to see vast, marked improvement in McCoy’s progression in the system that was cut off too early in 2011 (albeit by only three games).
He said that if he had to prognosticate at this early juncture, that he believes McCoy will come in as the team’s starting QB next season. Carucci told us that the Browns scouting department has done such a bang-up job on the defensive side of the ball (drafting four defensive starters in the last two drafts) that he believed 2012 would be the year that Shurmur would finally get to address some of the offensive issues that have been left largely unanswered.
So I asked Mike Mayock, "Why would an offensive-minded coach (knowing how hard it is to go through a long QB development process) want to risk the possibility of making his hot seat even hotter by throwing in a wild-card uber-athlete at QB with no surrounding weapons?"
“That’s an interesting question – but we saw it all last year. Offenses are showing more and more … Cam Newton, for example. Look at Cam. He comes to Carolina, they build around him. All these guys, Jake Locker [Titans], Christian Ponder [Vikings], if there is one thing we learned last year it is that rookie QBs can come in and contribute," Maycock replied.
"But you said he has no anticipation. I agree. Do you not think that anticipation is important in a timing-based precision West Coast offense in which you must 'throw receivers open' as opposed to 'throwing to open receivers'?" I questioned.
“Yea, and its another one of these deals,” Mayock said. “You have an exceptional player here and a chance you may be able to get him. Childress, Shurmur, you know; they would have to change how they do some things, sure.”
Mike Holmgren doesn’t just “change things”. His staff will not either. Thinking in such broad terms can be messy. Panthers Head Coach Ron Rivera had the luxury of “letting Cam be Cam” on offense because he was a first-year defensive head coach with his hands full trying to fix the heap of garbage Carolina runs on D week in and week out. I see the idea of RG3 to the Browns as one that could create a lot of excitement for a fan base in dire need of some sort of positive spark, but I just don’t like the fit. Holmgren has stated publicly he will be taking a QB in 2012. This is not an indictment on the position or its current standing, just an affirmation of his regime’s “bullpen” mantra in either drafting or signing a new QB each season for depth and seasoning.
I see so many more reasonable options later in the draft. An accurate, smart passer like Kirk Cousins (Michigan State) in the third round would be ideal to groom under McCoy in case his development does not positively continue given his new weapons and surrounding cast. At that point, you have an accurate passer and student of the game coming into the system without the handicaps that McCoy endured his first season as a starter due to lack of offensive personnel. The position needs to be upgraded, but that does not mean that McCoy could not bring about that upgrade with a better offensive line, an entire off-season/training camp, and at least one offensive playmaker. If Griffin falls to pick four, I believe the Browns could trade down to six and let the Redskins take Griffin. At pick six, hopefully the Browns could land a Justin Blackmon, a Trent Richardson (RB Alabama), or worst case, a Riley Reiff (OT Iowa). Then at pick 22, there will be an embarrassment of riches at offensive skill options, especially WR. Through the second and third rounds is where the greatest value for interior offensive line is found.
I do believe Robert Griffin III will be an outstanding NFL QB. I simply do not believe he will be an outstanding Cleveland Brown QB given the current state of the organization.
[Alex Dunlap is the host of RosterWatch on 104.9FM ESPN Radio Austin, founder of Rosterwatch.com, and a featured expert contributor to the FantasyPros.com network. He is also an NFL draft analyst for PlayTheDraft.com.]
Quote:
I don't under stand all the hub bub about his height ... The kids at least a smig taller then any QB on our current roster.
I think it's a moot point. Maybe not to every team, but there certainly isn't that bias here in Cleveland.
Well - we didn't draft Colt McCoy at #4 -- that's a big part of the difference.
That article is an excellent read, thank you for posting it.
The writer writes well, but in my opinion, he really doesn't say much. Out of all of that, I saw "RGIII doesn't show anticipation-based throws on tape, and Colt McCoy hasn't been given enough time to develop. Colt McCoy has accuracy that makes up for his lack of arm strength (oh really?) I think RGIII will be a very good QB in the NFL, but I don't think the Browns should draft him."
You have to take anything remotely UT-related with a grain of salt coming from anyone from Austin. The same guy will probably tell you Vince Young just never got a real shot.
Quote:
You have to take anything remotely UT-related with a grain of salt coming from anyone from Austin. The same guy will probably tell you Vince Young just never got a real shot.
i'm not as "down" on Colt as most. but, this and this again. Colt is actually as reverred as VY down here for the 4 seasons he put together. I'd chalk that article up to "playing to his audience"
Quote:
If Griffin falls to pick four, I believe the Browns could trade down to six and let the Redskins take Griffin. At pick six, hopefully the Browns could land a Justin Blackmon, a Trent Richardson (RB Alabama), or worst case, a Riley Reiff (OT Iowa).
Hmmm where have I heard this before ... Plagiarism 
Quote:
Quote:
I don't under stand all the hub bub about his height ... The kids at least a smig taller then any QB on our current roster.
I think it's a moot point. Maybe not to every team, but there certainly isn't that bias here in Cleveland.
Well - we didn't draft Colt McCoy at #4 -- that's a big part of the difference.
Nice try, but I can't buy that argument.
At least I don't think that we have a formula that says we only draft short QB's after round 1
Quote:
Quote:
If Griffin falls to pick four, I believe the Browns could trade down to six and let the Redskins take Griffin. At pick six, hopefully the Browns could land a Justin Blackmon, a Trent Richardson (RB Alabama), or worst case, a Riley Reiff (OT Iowa).
Hmmm where have I heard this before ... Plagiarism
Without the copyright I have no idea who the "smart one" really is.
I like that guys thinking!
Quote:
I like that guys thinking!
Thank you
Quote:
Nice try, but I can't buy that argument.
At least I don't think that we have a formula that says we only draft short QB's after round 1
?
I mean - I would hope we're not drafting RG3 with the idea that he will be "as good" as McCoy. If you're spending a top pick on a prospect, you hope for a big improvement over what you already have for free.
Quote:
Quote:
Nice try, but I can't buy that argument.
At least I don't think that we have a formula that says we only draft short QB's after round 1
?
I mean - I would hope we're not drafting RG3 with the idea that he will be "as good" as McCoy. If you're spending a top pick on a prospect, you hope for a big improvement over what you already have for free.
I just don't think they use height as a prerequisite to a successful formula or that it is an indication of Colt's (insert other name) limitations.
Height is certainly one criterion that you do (and should put on a QB) - it can be a huge consideration - it's why Russell Wilson will probably go undrafted instead of being in the first round.
Too many people here either seem to think "RG3 is the best ever, trade up and get him" or they think "He isn't good so never take him" - in real life players are allowed to move a few spots up and down draft boards - and if RG3 comes in shorter than promised, he will move down a bit on quite a few teams boards - for the reasons I outlined earlier.
Joe Montana is 6'2", I'm not to concerned about height on this one.
He brings up some good points that haven't been discussed on here as much as the obvious ones(no off season, 2 offenses in two years, rash of injuries on the line and at RB, no playmakers at receivers, etc). I have heard Holmgren state how long it takes for a QB to "get it" in this system and now with Carucci restating it. Everyone is looking for a QB to come in and take the league by storm, but it simply isn't going to happen on this team, with the personell we had, at the stage we were at. If Carucci says some of the big thinkers saw some real signs of progress and that he believes Colt will go into the season as starter, I have to believe that their handpicked guy is giving subtle insight without talking so loud.
-Many have said that Teams will have to adjust their offense to suit Griffin.(I don't think that is Holmgrens or Hecks plan) Rather draft players that fit their schemes.
-His Weaknesses are not favorable to be successful in the WCO.
-you go back to year Ground zero of a three year process for the QB to get it or not in the words of Holmgren and Carucci.
Quote:
Height is certainly one criterion that you do (and should put on a QB) - it can be a huge consideration - it's why Russell Wilson will probably go undrafted instead of being in the first round.
Too many people here either seem to think "RG3 is the best ever, trade up and get him" or they think "He isn't good so never take him" - in real life players are allowed to move a few spots up and down draft boards - and if RG3 comes in shorter than promised, he will move down a bit on quite a few teams boards - for the reasons I outlined earlier.
I do agree there are limits, but with 3 QB's under 6'2" already on our team.
I have to believe that if Griffen comes in at 6'1 1/2" I don't think that will influence our decision on him one way or the other.
I will totally agree that he might fall on some others draft boards. True.