At the lowest level of football you are taught penalties and turn overs will ruin your chances of winning. It holds true at the highest level of football also.
yes, injuries hurt, no doubt. Every team needs to deal with them. It does seem the Browns are dealing with more than their fair share. Penalties and turnovers hurt the most.
but despite the cardinals having a covid outbreak and no coached, this looked just like the whooping we put on pittsburgh in the playoffs. this time we were on the receiving end.
we got outcoached and outplayed in all phases of the game. good old fashion beat down.
This was what I thought was going to happen today going in. Hate all the injuries piling up, we truly have no idea what we have. I think the last time we were healthy was Chicago.
And even though I hate to do it, I have to agree that Baker is falling way short of expectations. But so are OBJ, the OL, Ski's play calling, and Woods and the D.
J/C. I’ll tune in on Thursday, but there were a couple times during the first half tonight where it was clear that the officiating had an agenda. If this continues, I won’t watch. I tune in to watch football, not officials on the tv every other minute. AZ was the better team I admit, but the officials ruined the experience today.
This feels like we had our shot to escape the curse of Modell. Someone decided NAH. Go back to the cellar you red headed stepchild! I guess future will tell. My sig still stands true. That is all.
My brother says "we're not a playoff caliper team".
I told him to pump the brakes with that kind of talk.
Bingo. There is still plenty of time to turn it around. We also play several crappy teams.
Also, while it is an excuse for the performance, we were missing three high level starters including our best player on offense.
Regardless of what happens Thursday night we’ll have 10 days to get some folks healthy and IMO that’s the biggest issue we have right now .. last week we played with one hand tied behind our back on D .. this week we had one hand tied behind our back on O …
IF we get healthy we’ll be OK … maybe the 17th game will end up being a blessing in disguise …
Pretty much the entire starting roster is either out or hurt, and Baker has a torn labrum (his completion ratio has gone from 85% to like 55%. That's significant).
We just played one of the best teams in the NFL with no defensive line; a decimated secondary; PRETTY MUCH NO STARTING OFFENSIVE LINE; and no Chubb.
THERE IS NO WAY THEY WERE GOING TO WIN THIS GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Should they have looked better than garbage?..................................Yes!!! They should have looked at least fairly competent.
My guess is that Stefanski realized they weren't going to win. So he, HOPEFULLY, gave pretty much everybody the week off, and is just pushing for Thursday night.
After Denver (a game that they unfortunately HAVE TO WIN), they get a week and a half to recover.
I don't think there is any way to judge what they are going to do until then. Hopefully, next weeks injury report looks better than a F'ing MASH report from Vietnam.
Did not understand the gameplay at all going in to today. We’re missing both tackles, their defense is especially poor against the run, particularly in the middle. Baker hadn’t been playing very well lately, Chubb is out but we have a plethora of other running threats to get creative with and we come out empty backfield for a large majority of the beginning offensive plays? Sure Chandler Jones is out but why in the world would we think we’d have drop back, down field play development time and luck right out of the gates?
Diabolical officiating. Some of it (PI on Hopkins) worked for us - but 80% was against us. The roughing the passer call was as ludicrous as I have seen anywhere, anytime, any team.
1stQ felt like a Freddie Kitchens prepared and coached team.
The back up OT's had such a huge impact on the ability to do anything.
I still worry about Joe Woods scheme - maybe I am wrong but wasn't that close to a full strength D? We flashed for a couple of drives and then - poof - any semblance of a Play-off caliber D vanished. Probably what's most worrying (other than WR catching balls without anyone close to them ... Hopkins, one of the NFL's best) -- we continue to line up with CB's 8-10 yards off the LOS. No wonder they get separation.
OCD mentioned how Stefanski's scheme doesn't have separation unless it's off play action ... evident again today and by contrast it seemed the Cardinals regularly had guys crossing or slanting and getting off their guy.
Baker is a tough S.O.B. .... he's clearly still throwing hurt. Swish - you made a comment about throwing the ball in high winds ... Baker did it his rookie season and he still can/does ... just it's very inconsistent at the moment. Overall a bad game for Baker with the interception.
Sucks. We should crush Denver who are a bad team ... if we don't, it might be the end of playoff hopes, or leastways we might not be in control of our own future if we lost.
Edi - forgot to mention our elite playmaker dropping another 4th down catch that hit him in the numbers.
Did not understand the gameplay at all going in to today. We’re missing both tackles, their defense is especially poor against the run, particularly in the middle. Baker hadn’t been playing very well lately, Chubb is out but we have a plethora of other running threats to get creative with and we come out empty backfield for a large majority of the beginning offensive plays? Sure Chandler Jones is out but why in the world would we think we’d have drop back, down field play development time and luck right out of the gates?
The Cardinals have been playing with only three defensive backs. That's a lot of meat on the field to run on when you are missing your two starting tackles.
Our defensive backfield is putrid. Our backup lineman are horrible. Baker can't handle pressure. Hunt was playing hurt. Referees playing one sided again, that last roughing call was atrocious, and the first one was a joke. Denver will beat us, and then we will lose to Pitssburgh. No playoffs this year mark my words.
Our defensive backfield is putrid. Our backup lineman are horrible. Baker can't handle pressure. Hunt was playing hurt. Referees playing one sided again, that last roughing call was atrocious, and the first one was a joke. Denver will beat us, and then we will lose to Pitssburgh. No playoffs this year mark my words.
Baker not being able to handle pressure is the key point made here and it goes hand in hand with the tackles being out. Baker being pressured is among the worst QBs in the league.
I want to add, that watching Conner carry our Dlineman and LBs for extra yards all fourth quarter was embarrassing. And the no call when Baker got hit helmet to helmet, showed me there were not going to be calls made fairly in this game.
I'm inclined to agree I don't se us making the playoffs if this keeps up. We need to get healthy and fast. We always have trouble with Denver. I really don't see us winning Thursday.
Our defensive backfield is putrid. Our backup lineman are horrible. Baker can't handle pressure. Hunt was playing hurt. Referees playing one sided again, that last roughing call was atrocious, and the first one was a joke. Denver will beat us, and then we will lose to Pitssburgh. No playoffs this year mark my words.
Baker not being able to handle pressure is the key point made here and it goes hand in hand with the tackles being out. Baker being pressured is among the worst QBs in the league.
I didn't want to believe it, but under pressure he turns into Charlie Frye.
This game was doomed from the start. From the refs all the way to the play calling. Baker and our dbacks cost us as well. We had chances to make a comeback and they couldn't step up to the plate when it really mattered.
Even still it's not all doom and gloom. There is plenty of time to right this ship. I can't wait til we get healthy I know that much.
Our defensive backfield is putrid. Our backup lineman are horrible. Baker can't handle pressure. Hunt was playing hurt. Referees playing one sided again, that last roughing call was atrocious, and the first one was a joke. Denver will beat us, and then we will lose to Pitssburgh. No playoffs this year mark my words.
Baker not being able to handle pressure is the key point made here and it goes hand in hand with the tackles being out. Baker being pressured is among the worst QBs in the league.
I didn't want to believe it, but under pressure he turns into Charlie Frye.
It’s who he was last year we were just able to keep him clean.
Our defensive backfield is putrid. Our backup lineman are horrible. Baker can't handle pressure. Hunt was playing hurt. Referees playing one sided again, that last roughing call was atrocious, and the first one was a joke. Denver will beat us, and then we will lose to Pitssburgh. No playoffs this year mark my words.
Baker not being able to handle pressure is the key point made here and it goes hand in hand with the tackles being out. Baker being pressured is among the worst QBs in the league.
I didn't want to believe it, but under pressure he turns into Charlie Frye.
It’s who he was last year we were just able to keep him clean.
The thing that confuses me about some of his performance against pressure is he seems to be clueless when pressure is coming and having a plan to beat it.
84 points given up in the past 2 games. Offense cannot convert 4th downs and continously leave points on the board. Defense had not earning their bloated paychecks and cannot stop anyone on 3rd and especially 4th downs. Woods schemes are some of the worst in the NFL and continue to exposed by good teams.
OBJ's body language, when he is not in pain from being injured, seem to indicate he isn't interested anymore. Hudson makes me miss Cam Erving.
Our defensive backfield is putrid. Our backup lineman are horrible. Baker can't handle pressure. Hunt was playing hurt. Referees playing one sided again, that last roughing call was atrocious, and the first one was a joke. Denver will beat us, and then we will lose to Pitssburgh. No playoffs this year mark my words.
Baker not being able to handle pressure is the key point made here and it goes hand in hand with the tackles being out. Baker being pressured is among the worst QBs in the league.
I didn't want to believe it, but under pressure he turns into Charlie Frye.
It’s who he was last year we were just able to keep him clean.
The thing that confuses me about some of his performance against pressure is he seems to be clueless when pressure is coming and having a plan to beat it.
He doesn’t have the problem solving gene as of right now. He has to be put in situations to succeed. Guys like Mahomes, Lamar, Herbert, Allen, Kyler etc make plays out of structure which allows their offenses to have a higher ceiling. On top of that they don’t miss often when they do what they are supposed to do.
I'm not talking about out of structure. I'm talking about just demonstrating he knows when he's going to get pressure and makes a call to combat it or executes quickly to combat it. He just holds the ball and usually takes a sack.
At any rate he couldn't beat good teams in years 1, 2, and 3. That trend has continued in year 4. He just can't raise his level of play.
At his best he can. But defenses are playing against like ours a lot more often (the Cardinals play offenses like ours four times a year in their division). They can better disguise defenses and take away things we do well. That means the coaches have to adjust and make things easier to raise Baker’s floor.
The biggest problem is still the defense. Baker… whatever. The offense didn’t produce today and was just clumsy and off but it probably would have been a very different game if the defense could get their offense off the field. The bears and Vikings games were the aberrations. The main problem was and is and remains the defense. Im always cautious about blaming Joe Woods but it’s becoming clear to me that management of the defense is failing. The scheme and game plan are poor, the adjustments aren’t there. Continued communication issues, at the end of the day, are a management issue. If the defense is even mediocre the last two games we’re 5-1 or 4-2 with some continued debate about Baker.
We paid a heck of a lot of money for John Johnson. He was supposed to be the QB of the secondary? His name is rarely called and doesn't appear to be an impact player. Him and Hill have been very underwhelming after 6 games for the money they spent.
If I'm the opposing team's coach/play caller, I'm purposely running plays for loss on downs 1 and 2.
Why?
Because "3rd and long" v. CLE is a guaranteed first down. This is the "Groundhog Day" stuff that sucks my enthusiasm right out of me. Doesn't matter who we have on the field or who we have in a coach's headset- results have been the same since 1999.
Browns D's can never get off the field.
_________
That said, we pretty much Hoovered it up in every other phase of the game today.
One last thought: it's tough enough to win a game playing against 11 other professionals. It's impossible if one team is playing against 16-18 others on the field (and I'm historically NOT a 'refs screwed us' kind of guy-).
We paid a heck of a lot of money for John Johnson. He was supposed to be the QB of the secondary? His name is rarely called and doesn't appear to be an impact player. Him and Hill have been very underwhelming after 6 games for the money they spent.
There are too many names on the D to not believe Woods is an issue.
My main thought is that this was a weak effort. We had an emotional, high-charged game with the Chargers and must have left it all there. We did not come into this game with any energy. If you want to be considered a contender you need to be ready to play every week. The team was not prepared, and not motivated. No heart. I don't want to hear about injuries, or referees, or how close we came to beating to KC and LAC. At the end of the day, none of that is reflected in the standings. Winners overcome and persevere.
Other thoughts:
- Nothing really looked good. Maybe 2/2 on XPs? Are we hanging our hat on that? Or the Hail Mary? Whatever. - Halfway through the 2nd quarter I told my buddies that there were two positives. One is that we wouldn't embarrass ourselves trying to close out this game. Two was that the Thanksgiving edition of "At Home with Baker Mayfield" commercial was probably going to be great. - We did have some drops. Njoku towards the end of the 1st half, which we did manage to overcome by getting a first down afterwards (and also overcame a hold of his, too. Come on, Chief), Hooper on our first play. OBJ on 4th down, again. - It seemed to me that Hooper has had some drops for us. I checked - he led all NFL TEs in drops last year, and has a couple more this year. Sigh. - The pick was a bad throw. The fumbles hurt us. - Another completely blown coverage. That simply does not work in the NFL. - Right now, we are a middle team. We can beat the bad teams and cannot beat the good ones. Something needs to change if we want to make the playoffs.
Someone needs to tell Stefanski that right now, take the early 3 pts. You can be aggressive later. Second, the D coord and he entire staff wakes up early and goes over that game film because the D needs to be totally revamped. (* probably not even go to bed tonight *). Our Safeties and blowing coverage every game. 5th game of the year and they are looking at each other after blown assignments. ON the offense, Stefanski has to help those tackles. The rookie on the right side is struggling the most. I think he will have to go 2 TE for alot of sets. If they do go 4 wide with WRs, the back will have to chip going out OR keep the TE on the line to help.
Hudson is a rookie. He is a project they want to develop, perhaps into our next starting right tackle. He is overmatched at this point. I am certain they did it intend for him to see this much action.
Hudson is a rookie. He is a project they want to develop, perhaps into our next starting right tackle. He is overmatched at this point. I am certain they did it intend for him to see this much action.
Trotting our 3rd stringers at BOTH tackle spots is definitely not helping. Despite that, it hasn't been as bad as you'd expect for that scenario.... but, it's still pretty bad. I'm annoyed we haven't brought anyone else in or traded for an OT equal to Hubbard. I guess the gamble is that Conklin or Wills will be back soon, but the gamble is failing.
this loss has a much different feel for me than some of our other ones … this one felt like the “old” browns. We seemed hapless and not competitive. That sucks.
We do not get a lot of consistent pressure with our front 4. When we don't get pressure QBs pick our sieve of a secondary apart. I guess some will say we are "still gelling" after 6 weeks. If this continues, we will be out of any playoff contention when we finally "gel". 84 points in 2 games is pretty sad.
The thought of us making the playoffs is nearing “joke” territory IMO. We have so many issues with injuries, a terrible defense, and a tough division (where ALL of the teams except us are getting better). We seem to regressing big time.
No help for a RT who has proven he isn't very good and a QB that is playing from to many empty backfields and is being made into a pocket passer. This is ugly football. Did Hopper have a catch and Njoku has been underutilized for years now. We keep doing the same things and teams are ready for it, perhaps it's time to try something else. Oh and Baker isn't a pocket passer stop trying to get a square peg in a round hole. Oh and he has NO business running as much as he has been, all of these things are adding up to one of the if not they most talented teams in the league looking like they suck. Adjustments aren't being made when someone is hurt and out that is obvious what's worse is the lack of in game adjustments.
The defense is non aggressive and ugly and disappointing to watch. I would rather lose being aggressive then sit back and watch us get picked apart.
And the penalties some are really penalties and still others are made up crap from the ref. Roughing the passer was enough. Someone needs to have a long talk with the league this can't continue and it's unfair to the fans and the team. We deserve and should expect fairness and we aren't getting it by any measure. No excuses for some of these calls we have seen.
This team SB 6-0 and we sit at 3-3 and it's getting worse not better time for some changes if this doesn't get on track and NOW.
Leave it up to the best analytics team in the league to prove analytics wrong. We're horrible on 4th down and the team doesn't seem to notice. How many times now has Baker been sacked on 4th down - 3 or 4?
I know we were missing 2 tackles, but I didn't expect the dropoff in quality to be that significant.
Penalties killed us - both the real ones and the ones the ref made up.
I backed off of the getting rid of Woods for 2 weeks, but am back on that train after the last two defensive debacles. Especially this one - it what world is leaving receivers wide open over and over.
Baker was running for his life and showed a ton of grit. We'll see how he feels this Thursday. It'll be interesting if we're missing him, OBJ (hopefully the shoulder is ok), both tackles, Chubb, Hunt, Janovich, and Jarvis.
Kudos to JJ Watt - immediately saw Baker was injured and called over the Browns staff and clearly seemed concerned. Its sad that may have been the highlight outside of the hail mary.
First, unless something happens to reverse the trend I am modifying my prediction from 10-7 min/13-4 max down to 8-9 min and 10-7 max.
Second, the defense needs help. Whether is is the scheme or the wrong personnel at the wrong time I do not know. The results speak for themselves.
Third, time to sit Baker. He is injured. That it is not his throwing arm is irrelevant. Imo, he is altering his delivery due to his left side hurting. That can damage his right arm not to mention causing bad throws.
Fourth, the play calling has been bad on offense.
Fifth, the injuries dictate a response by the FO and the coaching staff. They better get a sense of urgency.
We can't wait until the end of the season to demote Joe Woods. We must do it now. If he refuses then he must be fired outright.
Winning programs always have a sense of urgency. They don't wait around and accept mediocrity. See what OSU did with their D coordinator? I get that it's college and this is the pros but the behavior and short leash needs to be there at some point.
I've seen Greg Williams get playoff caliber defense from scrubs. Certainly worse players than we supposedly have on defense right now. It's the coaching and it must be addressed sooner rather than later. What are we waiting for? Where is Joe Woods? Why is he still in Berea? Sack this guy if he won't take a demotion. Guy has ZERO clue how to actually run a defensive unit. ZERO CLUE!
The book has been written on Joe Woods, we've given him talent and time and it looks no better than any point he's been here.. Its time to move on. Stefanski isn't the same guy we hired, he's regressed and his game management is some of the worst we've seen. A HC and his decision making shouldn't cost the team and he does several times a week. Compounding that is putting more pressure on a defense that can't stop anything or anyone. Stefanski needs to relinquish playcalling and concentrate on the other parts. This game was a perfect example, AZ is 8th against the pass and 28th against the run and we open the game with 7 out of first 8 plays passes. It just makes everything that much harder. There was no short passing game, there were no outlets for Baker, even when there was Baker was erratic, recievers constantly having to adjust to poor thrown balls.(which don't show up in the stats) His slow eyes get him in trouble and his mechanics are the worst they've been. This team needs a Bye week more than any other team. We are back in the cellar with everyone else in the division looking good. Hell even Ben is slinging it tonight and that pittsburgh defense is still stout. Given the injuries and the difficulty of our schedule, its evident we aren't as good as the preseason hype, but probably not as bad as it appears the last few weeks. They haven't had a chance to regroup. Team needs bodies back and a couple easier teams to get momentum rolling. This season has been a worst case scenario from upcoming contract standpoints too. Worst thing they could do is give Baker a big contract and he never turns the corner and we basically have a Blake Bortles situation.
its becoming more clear that Stefanski was the wrong hire for Baker. Baker needs Air Raid not WCO. Hopefully they can meet in the middle before its too late. Last year it seems KS let Baker be more aggressive than this year. You would think it would be the opposite given the experience in the offense now. He's going to turn the ball over sure, but he's going to make some wow throws too and put up some points
Who is helping Woods on game day and during the week?
Nobody. Stefanski working on how to use 3 TEs, running Felton in circles for a 2 yard pass to Hooper in the flat. Zero chance of YAC because Hooper looks like he's running through a kiddie pool full of hummus.
Hudson is a rookie. He is a project they want to develop, perhaps into our next starting right tackle. He is overmatched at this point. I am certain they did it intend for him to see this much action.
The thing is - IF you KNOW he needs help then why NOT help him? This is where I think Stefanski misses the point. You have to adapt your play calling to the skill set of the players you have available to you. This is why he has to give up the play calling. He just doesn't understand this very basic principle.
You cannot win when you are negative 3 in the turnover battle, all of the penalties (though some were b.s.) and cannot get off the field as a defense on 3rd downs. Especially 3rd and long. After the Chargers game, they are still blowing coverage assignments or playing way too soft. Jmho. I’m a Baker fan, but this isn’t Oklahoma where he could scramble around and outrun people. Granted, our starting tackles were out..but when the defense is baring down on you, throw it away or tuck it and take the sack as a last resort. That is a lot better than giving the opposing team the football at your end of the field
Jordan Zirm is a nobody with a blue checkmark. His career peaked as board operator for wknr and then briefly had a part in the short lived Thomahawk Show podcast.
My issue with that, cherry picked or not, is you just know Allen, Mahomes, Jackson, Murray, etc. make the play. That's the long and short of it for me. Has Baker made one impactful play yet this year? I can't think of one.
This isn't Charlie Frye or Kizer bad, but this current version of Baker is basically Derek Anderson all over again. You knew Anderson could make some plays and some throws but in your heart you knew he wasn't going to be able to get it done. That's basically what Baker has become. Baker seems to be regressing in an alarming way.
I can't take that particular play (snap shot) seriously. And what the top QBs would do in that situation is impossible to say.
What I do know, is at this moment, Baker, in this particular offense, is fantastically average. He's been neutered. The Browns are a a dink and dunk offense that's disgustingly conservative and awkwardly throw a 20 yard pass for an incomplete pass every now and again.
This is a good point. Analytics may be different for different rosters. Us going for it on 4th down with Baker/OBJ having no chemistry (and no OTs/Chubb) probably isn’t wise in the 1st quarter
I don't know that the analytics is wrong, but it is proving wrong for this team. Other teams might be converting at a good number, but we aren't.
The sad thing is that you and I know it's going to get worse before it gets better.
I just had a dream that Stefanski and Mayfield would go into the film room by themselves and there would be tape playing Bakers rookie year and so on.
"Remember this guy?" Stefanski says. "Let's see what we can do to get him back. What kind of plays do you want to run?"
Unfortunately this will never happen, time will be wasted, egos in the way and in the end Stefanski will be fired. Either that or Baker won't be signed, which would be a mistake. As soon as he gets to another team I can guarantee he'd be ripping it up and down the field again.
I do generally wonder why you're here! Everyone is entitled to their opinion but the only opinion you have is that Baker sucks. I can't figure out your motivation because I'm pretty confident Baker's not going anywhere anytime soon! You and leadtheway wait for every negative play by Baker and can't wait to post.
Baker has shown the ability to work through whatever he needs to work through early in the season and attack the second half. I'm worried, but nowhere near as worried as the D. Good grief we are terrible. What good is talent when you can't maintain a count of opposing players? This secondary is failing on pop warner football concepts. We stop them on the first two downs, are faced with 3rd and 10 and they pick up an easy 20-30 yards. We have talented man-press corners playing 10 yards off. We have our talented and smart safeties letting receivers free behind them. How do you lose track of Hopkins?
I don't know that the analytics is wrong, but it is proving wrong for this team. Other teams might be converting at a good number, but we aren't.
OMG...who is this new guy, Ballpeen?...
Analytics is wrong for the Cleveland Browns?
Maybe I am not clear or you are taking it out of context.
It's not that the analytics are wrong, but for this O, in those situations, at this time, we aren't getting it done. I am still in favor of putting points on the board in the way of field goals.
I think overall, the odds are the odds and will even out, but no doubt you have to go with gut feeling in some situations, or more on point taking in to account other factors..
As an example, the analytics don't take in to account you being down both starting offensive tackles. I don't know if analytics gets so deep in to the actual players on the field across the league. Somehow I have to feel that missing good starting players is going to impact the odds in a negative manner.
Being in favor of analytics doesn't mean you don't add in a bit of good old common sense. That has never been my position, nor as far as I know the position of anyone else.
How many sacks do we have to take on 4th down for the analytics to have us take the points? Based on our performance so far, the vast majority of the time we go for it, we take a sack.
How many sacks do we have to take on 4th down for the analytics to have us take the points? Based on our performance so far, the vast majority of the time we go for it, we take a sack.
That comes down to the coach making a educated decision based on the players on the field. Something tells me the odds are back in statistical favor if we had our starting tackles in the game.
And remember, it is a fairly small sample at this point. The odds aren't factored on a short sample. The odds are probably accumulated over several years worth of plays. Take the odds at playing blackjack. If you play the smart hand every time the odds are you will win slightly more than not. That doesn't mean on any given hand or night that play or plays are going to end up winning plays.
How many sacks do we have to take on 4th down for the analytics to have us take the points? Based on our performance so far, the vast majority of the time we go for it, we take a sack.
That comes down to the coach making a educated decision based on the players on the field. Something tells me the odds are back in statistical favor if we had our starting tackles in the game.
And remember, it is a fairly small sample at this point. The odds aren't factored on a short sample. The odds are probably accumulated over several years worth of plays. Take the odds at playing blackjack. If you play the smart hand every time the odds are you will win slightly more than not. That doesn't mean on any given hand or night that play or plays are going to end up winning plays.
The only problem is Stefanski seemed to take in account his Oline being depleted last week and ran it on 3rd and 10.. so who knows? On a side note: I do agree with your take!! Of everyone on this board over the years I find i agree with you on most topics.
Another thing I get annoyed with: when we go empty, especially to start the game (in windy-ish/rainy-ish conditions no less). Just seemed so dumb to me.
But you see what I'm saying, though... right? We've had an overwhelmingly large portion of our 4ths end up in sacks. Does it really take a rocket-surgeon to say "maybe we should put some of this on the shelf"?
Woods' scheme is really trending in the wrong direction again. Big time. He has not risen to the occasion against elite teams. Last year, we saw dismal play from our FS. We improved the position and still see dismal play. Guys aren't in the right spots, which goes to tell me that there is something going on with the scheme design. It's bad.
Did anyone see the Ravens play the Chargers today? Their defense played like they had their hair on fire. We just seem to wait for the play to come to us. Sometimes, it just feels like we just have guys on the field. Drives me crazy.
Offense is all over the place. Injuries have surely taken their toll. However, Baker needs to get the frigging ball out. He's bad under pressure and other teams are going to keep bringing it, especially with our OL dinged up. Get the ball out.
I have resisted my inner feelings so far on the matter to try and be more objective, but we need to part from OBJ. It's not even his fault either. I don't know what it is with Baker, but he's a different QB with and without OBJ, and I just don't get it. I understand the whole correlation/causation thing, but at some point, if there's overwhelming correlation, you can't ignore it. I'd be curious to see what his cumulative stats with and without OBJ on the field are. Plus, for whatever reason, OBJ for the life of him can't catch a fourth down pass. I can think of 3 easily catchable ones off the top of my head that he's dropped. If he picked up that first down yesterday, it could change the narrative (assuming the D wouldn't crap itself, which it probably would).
The staff needs to revamp a ton of stuff. Do whatever you need this week, and then use the mini-bye to retool things across the board. Simplify the defensive calls. Work on coverage. Get the offense fixated on the shorter, quick release, misdirection plays.
Also, for the life of me, is there any friggin' thing that can be done about the Refs? Holy crap that was miserable. That roughing the passer call was one of the dumbest things I've seen. Let's also not forget that they tried to throw a flag on Hooper for holding that was nonexistent.
Good point. We have one of the most passive defenses in the NFL by my naked eye. Even “bad” teams like Jacksonville seem more formidable and aggressive.
I don't know that the analytics is wrong, but it is proving wrong for this team. Other teams might be converting at a good number, but we aren't.
There's nothing wrong with the so-called analytics (Man, I seriously hate the gross overuse of that word). The problem with what the numbers say is that they rely on the assumption of being able to execute. So, it's not necessarily wrong for this team, but it doesn't apply to the current health of this team because when it is 4th & Short, we CANNOT execute. Nothing malevolent in that statement... it's just a simple fact that with two less than average 3rd string OTs and a banged up center, all they need to do is pin their ears back and run blitz on the way to Baker while the guys behind them cover the short and intermediate. It's not a handoff, so he's going to pass... and if the first reads aren't there, he's going to stand in and try to hit a big one down the field; with these tackles, that will take longer than he has and it is going to be a sack.
I have exactly zero respect for you and your crap not in the mood so stuff a rag in your pie hole.
I respect it, I just don't always agree. I will say this, I do think there's something to Baker and being timid throwing the ball. Whether that's on Stefanski or his shoulder or what, but something is different. I do believe that it's possible or coaches have pounding it into Baker's brain so much that throwing interceptions is bad. Analytics says it's bad.
However with all due respect to the "Baker not being the guy" talk, the defense gave up 37 points. The defense is bad. So for anyone who thinks Jarvis is our #1 WR (I don't), we were without our #1 WR,, our best RB, are two starting tackles, we were without our #2 WR and our #2 RB was playing injured. Twice we went for it on 4tb down in the red zone and didn't get a first down. The offense moved the ball. The defense failed us. The game we needed them the most, they blew it.
One more thing, that's now two years in a row that we have a horrible third down defense, with the secondary revamped. Again, it just seems like we're playing bend don't break on third and 7+ and it just seems automatic for the other team. I understand pressure can get you burned sometimes, but so does giving the QB time without WRs being covered.
One more thing, that's now two years in a row that we have a horrible third down defense, with the secondary revamped. Again, it just seems like we're playing bend don't break on third and 7+ and it just seems automatic for the other team. I understand pressure can get you burned sometimes, but so does giving the QB time without WRs being covered.
Originally Posted by Bird
May one suggest drafting a tackle in the next raft as Jedrick Wills seems incapable of staying healthy?
He got his ankle rolled up on. That is hardly that is the fault of the player, nor is it something he can prevent.
I have exactly zero respect for you and your crap not in the mood so stuff a rag in your pie hole.
Pretty sure a lot of people feel the same towards you. Sorry you got triggered reading something from Rish you don't agree with. Better luck next time.
A loss thursday and I think you'll see some shakeup in the coaching staff. You know Haslam has to be fuming and you know hes itching to meddle. But I think the two biggest things that can be fixed is Woods replaced and Someone else call plays on offense. Those outside of Baker are the two most glaring issues. Baker almost gets a pass due to injury and having shown he can be alot more accurate and aggressive than he's been allowed. Just about everyone sees it except KS. Baker thrives on making those tight window aggressive throws and it usually pumps him up and he starts to get in a groove. Stefanski's playcalling thus far is just as bad as Kitchens...Its literally like watching the movie from 2018/2019. 2018 kitchens calling plays and baker was on fire, 2019 and it was a dumpster fire. Last year under KS Baker was slinging it, this year...dumpster fire. Whats the common denominator here and you'll have the answer.
One more thing, that's now two years in a row that we have a horrible third down defense, with the secondary revamped. Again, it just seems like we're playing bend don't break on third and 7+ and it just seems automatic for the other team. I understand pressure can get you burned sometimes, but so does giving the QB time without WRs being covered.
Originally Posted by Bird
May one suggest drafting a tackle in the next raft as Jedrick Wills seems incapable of staying healthy?
He got his ankle rolled up on. That is hardly that is the fault of the player, nor is it something he can prevent.
Originally Posted by YTownBrownsFan
Originally Posted by dawglover05
One more thing, that's now two years in a row that we have a horrible third down defense, with the secondary revamped. Again, it just seems like we're playing bend don't break on third and 7+ and it just seems automatic for the other team. I understand pressure can get you burned sometimes, but so does giving the QB time without WRs being covered.
Originally Posted by Bird
May one suggest drafting a tackle in the next raft as Jedrick Wills seems incapable of staying healthy?
He got his ankle rolled up on. That is hardly that is the fault of the player, nor is it something he can prevent.
I get that he got his ankle rolled. That being said how many times has he been injured?
The best way to describe yesterdays game in one word is "ugly".
The offense was ugly. Baker's play was ugly. The defense was ugly. And yes, the officiating was ugly. But to try to blame the officiating on a 37-14 loss is crazy. Injuries certainly played a big part on the O, but from my perspective at some point they just gave up. With both of our OT's out and our best utility OT, Hubbard out, the loss I expected against an undefeated team. But not like this.
It was not an optical illusion that I used to see Baker scramble when needed, roll out and make a play out of what appeared to be nothing. No HC scripts what a QB does when things break down. From the moment a play breaks down, the QB has to think on his feet. It's up to him to read the field and extend the play. I'm no longer seeing that when it was something I used to see. It concerns me to say the least. I never used to see that "deer in the headlights" look from Baker, but I'm seeing it now.
This defense is not "gelling". It was certainly realistic to believe it would take time for it all to come together. A scheme with so many new players doesn't just magically come together overnight. But as I think we are all seeing, no progress is being made to cause us to think that's the case. They did have a couple of great defensive performances but rather than build on that they regressed right back to square one.
That doesn't mean that all is lost. A lot of teams rebound. While we're certainly not the Tampa Bay Buccaneers and Baker isn't Tom Brady, their 2020 season shows a team can rebound in the second half of the season. There are many examples of that happening. It's just the most recent example of it. I'm certainly not predicting that's what is going to happen here. But as a Browns fan I have to have the hope that's what will happen.
Either the TE or more likely Hunt should have picked that man up. In-excusable that the offense was not prepared for that defensive formation. Surely the coaching staff prepared the offense for that formation???
That play may have cost the Browns their QB...costly mistake!
Also, with Chubb already out and now losing Hunt and JOK.... we're toast. The season is toast. I do NOT feel that is an overreaction; we are going to drop too many games over the next several weeks in a very tight, very competitive AFC.
Baker is broken, OBJ is broken, Landry is still broken, our top 3 OTs are broken, JOK is broken, our two Top 5 RBs are broken, and the guys remaining on D won't do their jobs.
The O is a shell of itself, and the D is self-inflicted trash. What's left isn't the team that was going to the post-season. This is a collection of individuals that will be sitting on the couch - or rehabbing - come the third week of January.
I hate to say it, but with the absolute best roster we've ever seen in Cleveland, we're - once again - done before Halloween.
Sounds like a dig on Woods schemes and not letting the players be instinctual, for better or for worse.
I think he is saying exactly the opposite of that. We have young, less experienced, or less talented DBs that may be accustomed to playing on instinct at the college level that are now getting beat regularly because they are playing in more complicated system against better Offenses, with better QBs, and better WRs and they are trying to beat them on instinct rather than doing their job based on the play call.
We gave up 2 wide open TDs last week because of blown assignments and, if you go to nfl.com and watch the highlights under the Browns/Cardinals game, at the 4:40 mark you will see it, yet again. On 2nd and goal from the 9 yard line, Murray drops back, the Cards have a guy crossing into the left flat at about the 2, the Browns have TWO defenders already in the area. Murray looks that way and Troy Hill bites up hard from his safety position like he's going to make the pick and go 99 yards for the TD... while Andre Hopkins waltzes in behind him and settles in to fair catch yet another undefended TD, right where Hill was supposed to be......
From the post in the Green Dot thread here is the full thread from Jake Burns' tweet. It seems (and JJ III commented on being asked to play a different role than what he's accustomed to) Woods is not scheming his defense to what the player does best.
Jake Burns @jake_burns18 I wish I had time to write on this but I don't. John Johnson III was brought to CLE with playing 50/50 snaps in deep coverage and in the box. He is dynamic close to the LOS.
Jake Burns @jake_burns18 He can play deep. He has proven it enough but to stick him deep all the time is something new to his time in the NFL and it is not working for him fulltime. Some guys need to play closer to the LOS on some snaps. Get into the mix of the game, etc.
Jake Burns @jake_burns18 If you signed JJIII to stick deep every snap and not let him use the versatility he is blessed with, then that was a major whiff of a signing.
Also, with Chubb already out and now losing Hunt and JOK.... we're toast. The season is toast. I do NOT feel that is an overreaction; we are going to drop too many games over the next several weeks in a very tight, very competitive AFC.
Baker is broken, OBJ is broken, Landry is still broken, our top 3 OTs are broken, JOK is broken, our two Top 5 RBs are broken, and the guys remaining on D won't do their jobs.
The O is a shell of itself, and the D is self-inflicted trash. What's left isn't the team that was going to the post-season. This is a collection of individuals that will be sitting on the couch - or rehabbing - come the third week of January.
I hate to say it, but with the absolute best roster we've ever seen in Cleveland, we're - once again - done before Halloween.
You might be right. I figured a 5 loss season, or 12 wins might win the division or get a wildcard. Lot's can happen, but 5 losses is 2 losses away. That's a tall order at this point, especially since we aren't looking all that good right now.
The bad part about this is we have a lot of guys on 1 year deals. We might be pretty bad next year.
I've been thinking more about our defense in light of JJ3's remarks. It reminds me of Dallas' defense. Last year, they were in Mike Nolan's rather complicated scheme and the players didn't learn their assignments, felt it was too complicated, and were almost just giving up. Enter Dan Quinn, and it's simplified and much-improved. If we're running a scheme that is going against players' instincts and their strengths (e.g. press-man coverage), then I think it comes down to the fact we need to change the scheme up and simplify it.
OBJ could still be running. Not sure why Hunt didn't pitch it. Baker and OBJ's body language looked like they were expecting Hunt to pitch it.
Is it personal or something the players have against OBJ? I've been trying to focus on his whole demeanor and body language since his return and he seems to just be going through the motions. Is it because he is hurt again, just doesn't really care anymore or just misses Landry. His 2 critical drops are lack of concentration. Too many things going on in his head and around him? Barring anything miraculous, I think everyone knows his days are numbered here.
I think Hunt just thought he has it. I seriously doubt he has anything against obj. I doubt that any of them do. I do not doubt that people are reading WAY too much i to things with no context and seeing what they want to see.
People are wanting to see the Giants OBJ, but this offense doesn't feature one guy like that.
Eh, it doesn't matter... by the time we see Landry & OBJ out there together again, we will be out of the race.
And if we're all being honest with ourselves, it hasn't worked since he got here. Yes, there have been flashes every now and again, but overall, its been pretty bad. Add in the injuries issues each year and what he makes, I think it will be time to move on.
Thank you (and others) that have posted about JJ3's profile in terms of the type of safety he is. This will help me watch the defense's play a little better.
That's my quarterback.