No words ...

We have the right staff, if we were healthy this year we'd have a shot at the title. I lost count of how many guys we have had down with one thing or another... Stay the course. Grind out the rest of the season, get healthy, hopefully, add some more talent to the roster... Try to make it happen next year. We should have been destroyed tonight. Laughed off the field. But the guys held tough. That is good coaching.

Woulda coulda shoulda. Losers lose. We are losers.

There was some good effort but not enough playmaking. We’re toast now this season.

basement Browns

Season over. No playoffs.

Valiant effort by the team tonight, but nothing else really matters.

On to next season.

Meh, it is what it is. We still have a chance to win the division, but we need a little help.

Being a Browns fan might be the most toxic relationship I have ever had.

I took a lot of crap last week for saying this isn't a play-off caliber team....


This week ... well covid made a difference !... wanted a win so bad !

Practice squad guys put in a great effort !!

Still Hope !!

That game perfectly sums up what it’s been like for me to be a Browns fan the last 35 years

Easily. We all need to go to therapy.

Not sure about the staff.. Wouldnt miss Woods a bit.. Why are our DBs ALWAYS 5 yards away from the action and wait to tackle after the catch, while our receivers always have DB's hanging on their backs..

Keep "turning the corner" right into a dead end.
How about leaving the damn maze already?
58 years is plenty frikken long enough to have figured it all out.
But here is your participation trophy.
Looks like I will never retire my signature.
That is all.

Joe Woods needs to go ASAP. They need a FG and you play them soft and give them plenty of cushion. Should never have lost that game. Not the first time Woods has cost us a game.

Playoff teams that need 3 yards to seal the game most always find a way. Ward making a business decision at the end that let the TE run another 8 yards at end of game was inexcusable as well

This.

/thread

Our "Pro Bowl" players wet the bed today. Should be a another vote

Still can win division. Need to get healthy. I would punt the game this Saturday. Play 3rd stringers - may have to anyway.

Browns: 7-7 --> 9-8
- @Packers (L)
- @Steelers (W)
- Bengals (W)

Ravens: 8-6 --> 9-8
- @Bengals (L)
- Rams (L)
- Steelers (W)

Bengals: 8-6 --> 9-8
- Ravens (W)
- Chiefs (L)
- @Browns (L)

Steelers: 7-6-1 --> 7-9-1
- @Chiefs (L)
- Browns (L)
- @Ravens (L)

Easy peasy...

After the INT they give the ball right back to Carr. Should've went for it on 4th and 3 and say the hell with it.

Again, F that kicker. Fire him. I don't ever wanna see him again.

18 players who may never play in the NFL gave it their all tonight. I appreciate the effort. sucks we fell 1 kick short. we are not out of the playoffs yet. just down to almost no margin of error.

They should have gotten more creative on 3rd and 3. It was a typical "we'll put it in our defense's hands" play.

The old adage of prevent defense prevents you from winning still holds true. Same goes for conservative offense when the game is on the line.

Use a high draft pick to get a freaking good field goal kicker.

We all knew this would happen. Playoff Hope's are dead and honestly that the fault of the coaches all year not just this one game. Main focus should now be getting through packers game healthy and beating Steelers and bengals. Especially steelers. We cant let that filth rapist even have a chance at superbowl

He missed a kick. He didn't drop balls, he didn't have any penalties, he didn't call the plays, he didn't miss tackles - all of those things are why we lost, not just a single kick.

I hate the ref blew that 2nd down run so early and spotted chubb 5 yards back from where he ended up

Bottom of the division... that hurts real bad

I cut chase tonight if it were my decision. We’re out of it anyway.

Ugh

That was the one that broke my back .

Wheres Versatile Dawg and Diam Dawg been lately.

I agree 100%. But since it came to that, go for the gusto. Don't give the ball back to them!!

This team is too painful to watch. Then again, there are no meaningful games now. No way this team sees the post season.

I know on social media there will be a lot who will put yet another loss on the defense. Gave up 16 points and had two takeaways. Yes, let's replace Woods.

We are not making the playoffs because of the offense.

Three reasons behind this loss to Las Vegas:

1. The missed FG
2. The shanked punt at the 2:00 warning in the 4th
3. This team's fascination with throwing a 2-yard pass on 3rd and 6

". The missed FG
2. The shanked punt at the 2:00 warning in the 4th
3. This team's fascination with throwing a 2-yard pass on 3rd and 6"

This

Well put.

He has one job. You make that kick and we aren't in that end game situation. Of course everyone has their hand in the loss. He had an opportunity to put points on the board and he blew it. He has missed many other times too.

I don't believe we have the right staff.

Both Kevin Stefanski and Joe Woods are too conservative in their philosophies and don't play to their players strengths. Until this mindset is overcome we're not going to win anything.

The play to Moreau where we had THREE guys not tackle him with 22 seconds left was INEXCUSABLE

I was waiting for them to show the replay, but then I figured it was probably better for myself that they didn't.

That’s the one I referred to with wards business decision

Give me 10-1 on the Browns winning the division?

Punter has one job too - blame him for the shank. He makes the kick and we're not in that end game situation. He had an opportunity to pin them deeper and blew it. He did the same earlier in the game and last week too.

See how easy that is?

This is where I am right now, and I hate it. As depleted as we were, we had a real chance. But, as usual, the conservative, wimpy ass play calling, does us in. I’m tired of losing like this, go all in and at least go out with some respect. Very disappointed in this game, we had every opportunity to win.

Fate ! seriously ! Remember our talk after the Steelers game ? This isn't a betting site... The Browns are losing and to bet they win the division is asinine ! not going to happen my friend , just not !

Whatever. There's plenty of blame to go around. Our season is over it's not even worth arguing.

Given the situation I thought it was a Herculean effort. I don't quite understand the vitriol. I hated the drops, the missed FG, the other drops, the injury to MG, the no calls on MG... I wanted a pass on our last 3rd down - because while the run with Chubb was safe and put the ball in our best players hands, it was also predictable and "safe" and I would have liked to take the opportunity away from them. Mullins played plenty well enough to trust him with a roll out or play action pass in the 3-5 yard range. 2 minutes is an eternity for a team to get a FG.

Season isn't over. Detroit just beat Arizona ... you got to play the games. A win on Christmas Day keeps our hopes alive, and you just gotta hope the other games fall our way and AFC North teams lose. Stranger things happen.

I would have rather been blown out by 30+ points than a last second FG with a team full of 3rd and 4th stringers. I'm so bitter right now I hope the marquee teams get wracked with COVID during the playoffs, see how they handle it

Hmmmmm, Jerrod Cherry on the post game show just confirmed that we still haven't learned our lesson in the fact that we played conservative, not to lose football against the Ravens and it ALMOST cost us the game. There was an opportunity to learn from that and not do it this game but we failed and it DID cause a loss.

That's the most disturbing part for me. It's more disturbing than getting blown out or losing because you don't have the right talent. You know why? Because it's something that's actually within in our control to fix relatively easy and we're not doing it. It's been that way since last year, see the KC game, Dallas game, Baltimore win, I could go on and on and on.

Playing not to lose is never correct. You've got to have the fire. Take the chance when the game is on the line, that's what separates winners from losers.

Coaching has easily cost us 3 very winnable games this year....Where would that put us in the standings?

One thing I forgot. If stefanski was calling the plays it would not have even been a close game. His arrogant BUTT needs to be the head coach and that's it. Needs to put his ego in check

I am as upset about this loss as I've been about any loss all year. A tremendous effort for naught. Squeaking out this one would have made for at least one, if not two, of the games we coulda, woulda, shoulda won earlier in the year given the circumstances.

Watching the whiney ass Raiders racing around celebrating after needing last second heroics to beat our 2nd and 3rd team made me want to puke.

I'm not terribly upset about this loss because I didn't think we had a chance in hell after the first 3 punts. It was amazing to me that we might have won.

We need our guys and coach back and on to Saturday.

Play calling on both sides of the ball was the absolute worst when it HAD to be at it's best. Shameful and hurtful. You had a chance to put the game away so you put your foot on their throat and do it. QB rollout, another screen, something to show you want to win instead of hoping to win.

The contrast between the Ravens and Steelers cultures, their aggressiveness, their expectations that they will win no matter the situation or adversity, the way their big time players step up when it matters most compared to the Browns is stark. It's why the Browns will go yet another year without winning the division. What's that 30+ years now?

It's almost comical at this point. Being a Browns fan isn't fun. It's become some weird badge of honor where people look at you with sympathy while somewhat admiring your loyalty.

I was prepared to not be too upset in the first half either... even though they only had 7 points, they seemed to be gouging our defense at times and our offense was non-existent... then we came back, then we took the lead... and, as often happens to us Browns fans, I dared to allow myself to consider we might win... I swear, that's the first time I've made that mistake in 48 years.

We got the ball back after the INT.. one first down almost puts away, two first downs and we are absolutely kneeling on it...

We come up with stretch run left for 2 yards, stretch run left for 5 yards (all of which were Chubb), stretch run right for no gain, punt... really creative, who would have seen that coming? Run a screen pass, a bubble screen, a playaction quick hitter, something that the defense might not be 100% expecting... I was hoping AVP would be different, he did exactly what Stefanski would have done. Play to win the freaking game.

For a brief instant, when we took the lead and the crowd was in a frenzy yelling "de-fense", and then the interception........I thought to myself that this is what it felt like in the Sipe and Kosar years, late December games going down to the wire, fans going nuts, playoffs on the line, screaming at the TV. Sorry you younger fans never got to experience that. We might be there now. Let's see.

Almost forgot, the end of this game sucked a big one.

It felt much like those years, only difference is that if Schottenheimer had called 3 running plays, Kosar would have changed one of them at the LoS and hit Ozzie Newsome for 12 yard pass down the seam and we would have won the game.... then lost in the playoffs in heartbreaking fashion.

Having an offense that Cannot! or Will not throw the ball down field, I mean 25+ yard attempts, is NOT a characteristic of teams that win playoff games any time in the past 2 decades.

Having an offense that cannot or Will not throw the ball down field, I mean 25+ yard attempts, is NOT a characteristic of any of the AFC WEST teams in their divisional games.

Having an offense that can not or will not throw the ball down the field, is holding the Browns back.

Nick Chubb runs that were stopped for losses, once early in the first half, and once early in the 2nd half, are TOO TELEGRAPHED PRE-SNAP, it is a Tell! like in Poker, to sit the RB, 11 yards deep in a tunnel by himself waiting to receive the handoff, and the first time the Raiders brought a blitz for a 7 yard loss.
If you are going to make a run play look like a run play and not even a chance of pass, then you are hurting the Browns success.

With 2 minutes to go, coming out of the 2 minute warning and a LEAD, and the other team with no timeouts, on 4th and 3, if you Go For it, and make it, you only have to kneel down to win the game.

Just like 2018. When you PUNT THE BALL BACK, when the WIN was right in front of you, Losing the game was in not taking the chance.


Can we finaly put an end to the FALSE STATEMEN THAT DEENSE WINS CHAMPIONSHIPS, BECAUSE THIS TEAM NEEDED AN OFFENSE, AND IT DOESN'T HAVE ONE.
And I'm NOT TALKING ABOUT THE TALENT! Somewhere, These Browns, must have got it in their heads, that
BASIC AND EASY???

Basic and Easy is the way to win a championship? They look basic and easy and generic in every play they run, and I'm not talking about trick plays either, I mean,
they have been OUT COMPLEXED, in every game since the Patriots game, and were in the Cardinals game too.

And I'm tired of them not having an offense, a passing offense, or a two minute offense, or a passing game that takes chances.

Nick Mullens, out of Nowhere, came in and demonstrated the best 2 minute offense this team has run, (late in the first half)
SINCE BAKER MAYFIELDS VERY FIRST GAME AGAINST THE JETS IN 18.

And if Mulllens hadn't come out o nowhere, I suspect the Coaches would have coached any ability to move the 2 minute offense out of him.

And Finaly. The snobs at the NFL East coast, West Coast, Hollywood, and league offices, are never going to let the Browns win anything in any of our lifetimes, and that is just how it is, just more evidence.

The Field Goal Kicker is fine. McLaughlin is greater than Parkey was in leg strength.

The team needs a passing offense, a 2 minute offense, and an offense in general.

Not sure that a 100% re design of the entire OFFENSE wouldn't be an improvement, but!
Who in the Browns organizational history is going to come up with anything that is an improvement.

THE BROWNS DEFENSE on holding teams to low scores, Well!!! If the Browns Offense can't score at all, then the other team doesn't have to try and score a whole bunch to be ahead do they.

Going up by one point in the fourth was never going to be enough. You just knew they were going to give up the game defensively. I got sucked in with greedys int. After running Chubb into a wall for the 30th time again and again? I was convinced that we would lose.

This team plays like a scared little brother who never wins. Defeated over and over by the jerk older brother who lives in his head.

We will never be anything but the loser little brother in this division. And we deserve every minute of it.

I’m so sick of this BS from this BS team and am embarrassed and ashamed to have brought my poor family into this. I honestly feel guilt.

The browns will never be anything but losers.

This season was ruined because of Covid and injuries.

This season was ruined because analytics loses on gamedays.

Somehow it seems, with all of these tools, something at the top is not doing enough to push the envelope.

This season was ruined because the browns don’t win football games. Period.

I want to See what Chubb would have done on that Run Left, on 4th and 3 after the 2:00 minute warning
I ALSO want to see what the Fake Punt would have done on that 4th and 3 after the 2:00 minute warning, and the lead, and no time outs by the raiders, and the WIN, ONE PLAY AWAY!

And I want to see what would have been the run by Carlos Hyde, on 4th and inches, with an 8 point lead and no time outs by the Raiders, in 2018.

AND I think this entire league is scripted, and it's all bull crud
If you are waiting for the rest of the NFL to play down to your lower level of play, then just give it up.
THE BROWNS HAD MOMENTUM, on that 4th and 3 play, the same situation happened in Baltimore iirc. They got 8-13 yards on a draw to Johnson, and set up 4th and 3, and they punted.

j/c...

- Absolutely brutal loss.

- The stadium was as loud as I have ever heard it when Raiders had the ball on the final drive. You could have heard a pin drop after the ball sailed through the uprights.

- Did not show replay at the stadium, was McLaughlin's FG partially blocked or did he manage to just chunk one? The kick was a good 15 yards short on a 47 yard FG attempt.

- Why can the Browns not find a kicker? The curse of Phil Dawson.

- Not even mad at the players, they gave everything they had and you could see were absolutely gassed at the end of the game.

- I can't remember the last time the Browns got a first down to close out and seal the game. It feels like it never happens. Always playing with fire and getting burned.

- Not looking forward to the game on Christmas Day.

- Another quiet, depressing walk back up the W. 3rd St. bridge.

If the Chiefs and Rams play to win and do, this is pretty much how I see it playing out. Beating the Packers would help at this point too. They are going to be trying to get completely healthy for the playoffs now.

There is just NO excuse to not Go for it on 4th and 3 with 2:00 minutes to go.
lets see the facts.
Browns have the Most Talent, at OL and RB that they've had in 25 years, or equal to.
and,
The Decision NOT to Go for it on 4th and 3 with 2:00 minutes to play, AND A WIN RIGHT THERE IN FRONT OF YOU,
dropped the Browns

From the 4th seed in the AFC, to
13th place out of 16 teams in the AFC, because the Raiders, were in 13th place and now they have the same record and a head to head win over your team.

And IF THE BROWNS GO FOR IT ON 4TH AND 3 FROM WHEREVER, WITH 2:00 TO PLAY, AND A LEAD, AND THE RAIDERS WITH NO TIMEOUTS THE WORST THING THAT COULD HAPPEN IS YOU LOSE THE GAME.

Which they Lost anyway, BUT! IF YOU MAKE IT, YOU WIN THE GAME AND GET TO LEAD THE DIVISION.

But you Punted the $# D^ ball and now you are in 13th place. That's why analytics loses on gamedays.

Here's hoping for a christmas miracle against green bay

I agree on something with Throw! 1st? Sure can't remember another instance.

Throw, you're absolutely right, IMO. The browns should have gone for it to keep the Raiders' offense off the field. Even if we didn't make it, we still would have had to stop them from getting a TD and left time to go down and score ourselves. When I saw them punting, all I thought was, “the D Line is too banged up, to keep them out of field goal range, with woods calling conservative plays.” If we hit them with a 3 and out after turning the ball over there, they kick, and we still have about a minute to return the favor.

Stupid not to go for it, but the right thing to do at the same time.

There is a lot that I can complain about. The missed field goal, the conservative play calling, the bad punt,etc..

The thing is for me we went out there with a third of the team on the Covid list. We had guys who are marginal players like Moffat, Stewart, Togai, Hance, and Dunn playing meaningful minutes. They were playing their hearts out and were devastated by this loss. I'm not about to call them losers.

welcome to cleveland mullens

Heartbreaker for sure. I was working this evening and only say the 4th quarter (ignored social media and texts so when I got home I wouldn’t know the score beforehand).

I I was annoyed on our last drive when the ref blew the platMy dead early and cost us three or four yards. On third down, I would have thrown it, and even before the play I was hoping we’d go PA and get an easy one.

Our guys played with guts and were valiant in spite of all the things going against us. Some of you are emotional girls. I tip my cap to our team for the fight they showed. And we’re not dead yet, we still have a pulse.

We essentially have the same pulse we had before we lost, we just made the Packers a must win game. Almost nobody thought we would go 4-0 down the stretch and they wrote off the Packers game.... at the end of the day, losing to the Raiders doesn't hurt any more than losing to the Packers, we just needed to go 1-1 in those 2 games to have a chance.... the obvious difference is the Packers are better than the Raiders...

It starts at the top.

Andrew Berry has all the intelligence and the diplomatic skills in the world but does he have the bravery and the positive craziness to change a losing culture?
Kevin Stefanski mirrors his bosses. Great talker, highly diplomatic and a very good human recourse manager but is he a good football coach?

Baker arrived a couple years ago full of positivity and with a winning attitude. What’s left of that after a couple of years where our game approach is about not to lose instead of winning at all costs?

We have a squad full of talent and great players but we have a coaching staff without confidence of their ability.

We’re were we are because of not having the bravery to take our chances, to go all in. Changing that culture starts at the top.

Awful way to lose a game.

Special teams could have won the game.

The offense could have won the game with a first down.

The defense could have won by making a stop.

I will not fault the team or coaches. We played with a third string quarterback and 18 players on The List.

In the end when you have no wind, rain, or snow and you have a forty yard field goal to make. You have to make that kick.

Take Justin Tucker off the Ravens and count the loses.

It was an easy kick that he made. They call time out and he misses.

All the effort from everyone else goes wide right.
=================================================================================

After all that has happened this year it is amazing that we are not mathmatically eliminated.

There have been so many years when you start to look at the draft after Halloween. For sure looking at Thanksgiving.

So we will play Christmas day and still be hanging on.

The only reason we’re not eliminated is because our division hasn’t been dominated by any team other than the clowns this year. Usually, the rats or the stoolers have it locked up by now.

This team is nowhere near the level of those teams. Stoolers would have never lost that game. Rats are way better than we are. Those teams fight til the end and usually win.

I don’t blame the guys last night. That team of 3rd stringers showed way more heart than our first teamers. Those clowns are the reason we are in last place. Mullens showed way more “moxie” than baker. Honestly, I’m tired of his empty “chip on his shoulder.” He hasn’t backed that up in months. He’s battled through injuries and team injuries have hurt but real teams win when beaten up. Battling isn’t enough. You have to win battles. We don’t. Even our wins feel dumb.

It’s the price of expectations. The joke is that this team should have never had the expectations we had going into this season (or any season).

Talk about math all you want. These morons won’t win another game. And we’ll end the season where we belong. In last place.

Of course if I’m wrong, that would be swell.

I will say it again, THE SEASON WAS RUNINED BECAUSE OF COVID AND INJURIES! We have 14 starters on the covid list. Baker was playing hurt all year and is going to need off season surgery.

I went to bed after the game to read a while so I haven't read any of the posts.

All considered it was a good effort and we could have won. I don't really place blame, but the missed 3pts would have been handy at the end. The fact I can't recall the kickers name at the moment tells me he isn't a guy we have to keep. While he was looking pretty good early in the season, we probably need to keep looking for a more reliable kicker. He made the first kick before the TO call, so pressure was the problem with the second kick. A 47 yard kick might not be a chip shot, but it is one NFL kickers need to make.

Mullins looked good enough and gives us reason to move on from Keenum as the primary back-up. His arm isn't great but he is good enough to step in and win games. With some work with the primary players, he will be good enough to put up more points.

Well, it isn't over yet, but we will need help. The only shot now is to win the division. Tie breakers will kill us for any wildcard and we need the others to somehow lose. I haven't looked at the teams remaining schedules, but it seems to me, just thinking out loud, we need Cincy to beat all the teams in the division they have yet to play, we start winning and maybe, somehow, the home game against Ciny at the end gives us the division win.

Maybe as I go back and read the comments someone has laid that all out.

Oh well.

Barry put together a team that made it to the playoffs last year and beat the Steelers. Now all of a sudden, he can't change the losing culture.
Stefanski was NFL coach of the year last season, now all of a sudden, he can't coach.

I know fans are frustrated and expected a lot more. Heck, I thought the Browns were going to win the SB this year. But like I said, covid and injuries ruined it!

Here’s one thing that I never really saw a replay of:

After Greedy’s INT, it seemed like he kinda just stopped and/or didn’t try to run very hard. I felt like he should have tried to gain some return yards, even 15-20. That drastically woulda changed the next possession and subsequent possession by the Raiders. Perhaps even the game.

Maybe. My thinking is to sign a vet. There are a lot of guys out there who have hung around for a reason, but I admit they have hung around and moved around for a reason as well.

I wouldn't be against spending maybe a 3rd rounder on a guy, but we have to be ready for failure because failure rate for kickers is pretty high. We drafted Zane Gonzalez pretty high when he was the best kicker in the draft, and he has bounced around some. I mentioned Evan McPhearson out of Florida. He has been money for the Bengals. I also liked Carleson out of Auburn a few years ago, and he beat us last night. I haven't started to look in to draft eligible kickers for this year.

I always know when a loss bothers me more than usual when I'm still obsessing about a couple plays the next morning. In this case its the 3rd and 3 run by Chubb on our final possession. I kept thinking how well a couple roll-outs to the left by Mullens worked, because they forced a defender to come up into no man's land and leave a receiver open behind him. The second of these resulted in the TD to a wide open Harrison Bryant.

The other play was on either 2nd or 3rd down early in LV's final drive, when I thought Carr was looking rattled and ripe for a balls-out blitz. We had sent a CB blitz from the left on the prior play but it got swallowed up in the LOS scrum. I wanted a Koramoah blitz right up the gut, where I thought there were gaps in Carr's protection, but it didn't happen. We left the short middle soft and defended deep and at the sidelines (to keep them inbounds after a catch). Turned out to be a bad strategy, IMO. I wanted an aggressive attacking approach that tried to cover receivers rather than concede short pass completions.

For the most part, the Browns defense played NOT TO LOSE, rather than blitz a whole lot.

There are QBs who will kill you if you blitz them, but I don't think Carr is one of them. I was watching and I just had this really strong feeling we were going to see a strip-sack or another Interception if we only pressured Carr more.

Since two of those games were PIT and BAL, that would have us looking really good right now.

Jc

Man I’m really sad about this loss. I get that we are Covid stricken, and we played as well as we could.

But the big picture is something that really bothers me: this entire team plays so conservative.

Guys, this is the kind of game where you’re just supposed to say “f it” and just let it rip. And yet both sides of the ball played so scared. It really makes it obvious that this entire coaching staff coaches and schemes not to lose. Woods, Stefanski, or whoever is acting HC, this team has been coached to play soft and scared.

Our team played as well as they could given the circumstances, but they played as well as they could given the extreme conservative nature of the game plan.

I don’t put this on the players. I put this L on our coaching staff. They really coach scared. That’s not a recipe for deep playoff runs.

Good point about Carr. He wasn’t good last night and seemed hobbled. Any pressure folded him outside of a few minor plays.

We surely miss Clowney and Takk when they aren’t in the game. And we desperately need DT upgrades

Packers fan here. See you guys Saturday. I am truly sorry about that Covid crap you had to deal with. You would have won if it wasn’t for that. I don’t wish that on anyone. I hope you guys get to the playoffs without beating us. Here is to a great game Saturday with no injuries and good officiating and no Covid hitting us. Much love your way. Merry Christmas.

Thanks that is an honest sentiment.

jc...

After reviewing the video over and over...watching the video in slow motion in the 4th qtr...from 25 seconds left in the game to 22 seconds left in the game...the play of the Browns at that point was a defining moment for the team, for the season but especially for these players.

I still believe if one player lets up on one play, it can cost your team the game...and it did, imo.

Against the Raiders, with so much on the line (the entire season and playoffs) and with so much effort given in this game by all of their teammates...the period of time from 0:25 to 0:22 seconds left in the game...at that moment, the play of two of Browns "star" defensive players gave the Raiders a chance to win the game...and the Raiders took full advantage of the Browns lack of effort and WON THE GAME.

Those two players know who they are and they deserve to be called out, imo.

j/c

On the Raiders last drive we were gassed...twice they were able to get out of bounds and stop the clock...why did we not use a timeout - or 2 - there? Give those guys a minute or so to catch their breath...maybe allow the coaches themselves to re-assess their plan to get a stop? In-game decisions.

"Bart Scott, a Browns and Baker hater, was the only analyst I saw predict the Browns would not make the playoffs.

Bart gets the last laugh."

You can not help yourself can you?

Like the Browns. Always wish you well when your not playing us.

Not sure about Woods or Stefanski (as a play caller). Both guys are WAY too conservative. You can't win playing soft in this league. Still need help at LB and some depth at OL. Next year we need to see if Baker is the guy. I can easily see the Browns drafting a QB although I'm not sure who's available right now. Oh well - wait till next year. Like none of us have EVER heard that. Deflating.

j/c...

Josh Gordon chiming in with his postgame thoughts. His since deleted tweet...

This. IF Kevin cannot relinquish play calling duties he MUST be fired. You cannot constantly choke the talent you have on the offensive side of the ball. Same goes for Woods (although LB is lacking). Playing not to lose does one thing: It causes you to lose. And we are all sick and tired of losing winnable games. It's ridiculous and the front needs to understand this and make the necessary changes. The sooner, the better. Use these last 3 games to learn something.

Which is par for the course for Woods. Also the reason he needs to be relieved of his duties. I think most of us would support this move.

j/c...

Joel Bitonio with a 91.5 PFF grade playing LT. Wow.

Ask yourself why our coaching team so often prefers to play conservative in the third and fourth quarter instead of having a more pro active approach. Yesterday’s last 3 minutes was a great example why our game ended with a loss.

The bosses on the top sets the tone. That’s how a healthy organization should work. Players comes and goes but the culture should stay the same if you have a confident leadership. If our GM gives instructions to our coaches that he wants us to be more adventurous then you will see a another type of game. Using a conservative approach is often about not having the self confidence to when necessary being able to take on the challenges and put your trust to our own players.

Humans have three types of approaches when facing challenges. (read danger)
Attack. (being pro active)
Freeze. (wait and see)
Flee. (being defensive)

Compare our approach in the latter stages of the game to the Ravens or the Steelers. Huge difference.

I've said it before... there's something in the depths of "analytics" that color codes our play charts... both sides of the ball. Playing "not to lose" is somehow what the math says to do. We can change up plays all we want, but time, distance and score dictates when they are allowed to be run.

Early on, the coaching staff and FO agreed that they will live by that sword, and they're obviously willing to die by it just the same.

ONE WOULD THINK, that a game like yesterday would allow a little rule breaking, especially on the defensive side of the ball, but it really didn't happen -- and on the rare occasion it did (blitzing) it was usually defended well... apparently reconfirming the mindset of the brain-trust.

I'm so tired of hearing things like "oh, you can't blitz that QB, he'll kill you". PLEASE make me a list of QBs that don't kill us, as a little evidence that we should stick to this tired idea of "create pressure up front". It's been the curse of Myles Garrett and has been the narrative over multiple coaching staffs. What a sham.

Meanwhile, the QBs that you can't blitz... Mahomes, Jackson, have been rendered largely ineffective on many Sundays this season because teams finally had the balls to blitz them.

File under FWIW…

I did not expect a huge amount of offense during this game.

Two things occurred that allowed the Browns to lose:

Failing to get first downs after the interception.

Failure to stop the Raiders from getting close enough for a FG because too often Raider receivers were open. That happened far too often.

Coquitt’s somewhat shanked punt didn’t help either.

Gilliam was on the Covid list last night. See how easy that is?

That PI call on the raiders drive that put them up 6 was total BS. We had them stopped and that hurt us as much as anything else in the game.

1 first down was all that was needed - 1 damn first down - 10 yards.

Son of witch...that hurts and he's in for a rehab that will be months, hopefully McKinley will be able to play next season.

Not likely and he won't be under contract.

This 100

Steelers and Ravens -- WOLVES
Bengals -- Wolf pup
Browns -- Chihuahua

You are bing unkind to Chihuahua's. . . . tortoise might be more appropriate.
4 yards ... one play, 4 yards.

Much like yourself I'm not understanding what anyone was expecting. These guys played their hearts out. I know that a moral victory doesn't help get you to the playoffs. With 19 players on the Covid list and playing our third string QB, most of even our loyalist fans didn't give us a chance in hell. Yet they played their hearts out and almost pulled it off. This "almost win" by people just moved up to the active roster and our 3rd sting QB was actually a better showing than we've seen in some other games this year under far better circumstances.

Sure, people can critique it like they expect everything should have went well with 19 players not on the roster. Even the punter was just signed because Gillam is on the Covid list. All you hear is how if this or that had been done a little differently, we would ave won. Yet before kick off you heard we didn't have a chance. Expectations escalated quickly.

Silver lining....I will get better odds on Cleveland for next year

That is the defeatist attitude that not only permeates this board,but the team as well.
Despite all the challenges you mentioned,there was an opportunity to win the game.But instead of seizing that opportunity,the team did what it has done several times this year,choked.Fear of winning is just as bad as excepting losing.

j/c...

Zac Jackson
@AkronJackson
Stefanski says John Johnson is day to day and “results pending” on Garrett’s groin injury.

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
#Browns coach Kevin Stefanski said Day 10 for him in COVID-19 protocols is Saturday, so he'll be able to coach vs. #Packers on Christmas

Zac Jackson
@AkronJackson
Stefanski goes no-comment route when asked if he will consider a kicking change.

Nate Ulrich
@ByNateUlrich
#Browns coach Kevin Stefanski said he won't get into whether he would have called the same plays as Alex Van Pelt on the final possession, added AVP is a pro, he's done it before, has total faith in him doing it

Ignoring the reality of a situation by having unrealistic expectations is what we are witnessing. Your post is a prime example.

I'm worried about Myles. It appeared as though he may be suffering from a pulled groin. It didn't look good.

No, it's not... not at all. His post has nothing to do with "expectations". Neither do most others. This is another "Pit builds a narrative that doesn't exist" thread.

We were WINNING THE GAME.

That has nothing to do with expectations or a covid list. NOTHING.

When you're winning a game and your coaching and play-calling gives it away, fans have every right to call it like they see it.

The "reality of the situation" is we should have won the game, but you can slice it any way you want to.

Our coaches puckered their butt-holes, yet again, because it is a way of life for them. Whether we're up by twenty or down by twenty, Lions or Chiefs, home or away, doesn't matter.

You can not like people calling it out all you want, but it has nothing to do with unrealistic expectations.

i can only add one thing,
yea.

Yes we were winning a game that nobody thought we had a chance of winning. It's just with 19 people on the covid list and a third string QB, we came up a bit short. Who could have imagined that?

That is this year are most of Next year. It is usually a 12 month rehab

I’m not sure if you arguing for the sake of it or if this is your honest belief? Anyway.


Like everything else in life great opportunities comes and goes. Against the Raiders we had like you said 19 people on the Covid list and a third string QB but we still had a very good chance to win this game. Less then 3 minutes left with the ball in our hands and with a similar approach three times in a row then a punt. In came the defense. Once again we had a really good chance to win the game but we let it slip because of fear and us being too conservative with only seconds left on the clock.

Why is that happening again Pit? Was it the first time this season? Do you see any patterns? In your opinion do you think anyone is responsible?

Einstein famously said… The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

We've won as many games as we've lost this season. Last year with the same coaching staff we made the playoffs. Stefanski and crew have won far more games than they've lost and I'm the one who can't see a pattern?

In four of the last four games Baker started he thew for over 50% for one of the last eight halves of football he's played. Do you see a pattern?

So , how's the weather on that Island of yours ..lol

I think this is the essence of a lot of people's angst with the play calling and playing not to lose. Against all expectations we were in position to win and instead of calling plays to win, we called plays 'not to lose' ... Being in that position with all the challenges we had faced is why I don't get the vitriol in many people's posts - but having gotten the team to a winning position the coaching ethos is absolutely apparent and frustrating.

I'm not on an island. It's not my fault that some on here actually felt that winning this game was expected and that they didn't do a great job under the circumstances. In the Dawgtalker pickem's 14 people selected the Raiders to win. 9 selected the Browns to win. Even with homerism involved the majority didn't think we would win this game. That's not an island.

And had they called a pass play and it had been intercepted people would be questioning why we left our fate in the hands of a third string QB rather than our best offensive weapon on the field, Chubb.

Steelers are about to backdoor their way into the playoffs....

Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
More COVID issues in KC, which is becoming this week’s hot spot.

Chiefs’ WR Tyreek Hill, CB Rashad Fenton and TE Blake Bell are being placed on Reserve/COVID, sources tell @adamteicher
and me.

Other players likely coming but as one source said, “it’s a mess.”

Adam Schefter
@AdamSchefter
And so the status for Chiefs’ WR Tyreek Hill, TE Travis Kelce and K Harrison Butker all are in question for Sunday’s game vs. Steelers.

You are right. And somewhere in there it probably said in that situation, it was best to get the ball out of your 3rd string QB's hands as quickly as possible and in to the hands of Nick Chubb, the best skill position player on the team at that time.

You mean something like that?

I don't fault the play call other than we had been running better to the left.

I haven't checked, but left may have been the shorter side of the field, I don't know.

If at random someone bet you $100 Chubb couldn't gain 3 yards on his next carry, would you take the bet? I would and suspect most would.

It's a sad, sad day when one needs to use the pick 'em distribution to justify an argument/position. How far we have fallen.

Yeah, the majority of Browns fans that didn't think we could win this game has nothing to do with how people felt before the game. I know what sad looks like. I just read your last post.

Not when the other team schemes for that very possibility - you know like 10 guys all going in the same direction as the runner.

I would not, but then I would play to win, regardless of whether it is my 3rd string QB or not. We had them right where we wanted them. All expected run, perfect opportunity to fake handoff in direction desired and roll back. Peel the TE off the edge and dump it off. High percentage pass. If drops it, oh well - they get 1 more play. Very low possibility of interception unless QB throws it right at the 1 defender. 2nd worst case is it is dropped or he slides down and takes sack. Best case, 1st down and game just about over.

888, I do not think we called plays “not to lose” . They called plays they thought would gain ten yards and at the same time would eat clock or force them to use their timeouts. I would bet that if you reviewed every nfl game this season that strategy was used dozens of times successfully. It did not work for us. No series of playcalls guarentees a first down and if we throw one or two incomplete passes they get the ball back with timeouts in their pocket.

One other thought. I can remember more than one game when we held a small lead, took possession late in the game and ran the ball successfully right down their throats. Ate up the clock! I do not know if we were playing “not to lose “ then, but it worked.

Except this thread isn't "pregame thoughts" it's "postgame thoughts" and you're choosing to chastise posters for having opinions about late-game playcalling by pointing out how people gave us little chance of winning before the kickoff.

The two things are not associated.

That's not necessarily a "win" or "lose" thing. It's a spread thing.

They had 2 timeouts only and used both by 3rd down. Exactly what we wanted with run plays on 1st and 2nd down - and we had gained 7 yards - most important to that point because it set us to run or pass on 3rd down. Playing "not to lose" was running on 3rd down. Playing "to win", in my estimation, was to scheme a high percentage pass play on 3rd down.

Actually I think they are at least to some degree. Nothing changes the fact we had 19 players on the covid list and we started our #3 QB. The roster didn't improve over the course of the game. What happened was that against all odds our team managed to hang in there for as long as they did. But games are decided by a full four quarters, not a partial game. Sometimes a team plays over their heads. You have 2-10 teams beat 10-2 teams. As of late there have been quite a bit of upsets all across the league. Now that doesn't mean that the 2-10 team is better than the 10-2 team.

What we did was take a team that should have been defeated rather soundly and managed to hang in there and stay in the game for almost all of it. The problem became when at the very end what was expected to happen, happened. Being a fan in the heat of the moment can alter your way of thinking. And it is disappointing that we couldn't hang on until the end. But when looking at all the circumstances with our roster, wasn't that the more realistic expectation?

I suppose people can say we should have expected to win with a third string QB if they would like. I think people can say they expected us to beat the Raiders because we hung in for so long. But to me it's far more about allowing yourself to think we were actually fielding a team that wouldn't most likely come up short at the end. But i can see why.

Yes there was a 3 point spread. But then we can look at the prediction thread in this forum. There were as many or more that thought we were doomed from the beginning. That probably would have been a better example.

I mean we're stuck in a rut of "guard rails" that we established long ago, most based on analytics (imo).

That said, I'm mostly talking about defense -- and it goes back almost two full seasons now -- playing "math" instead of playing to win. Remember all those blown leads last year that nearly resulted in losses? This year a few have.

As far as the Chubb run, sure I'd take that bet, most days.

I don't even have that much of a problem with the run as I do the series. We're playing to "burn the clock" when it was impossible to get the clock under 2:00 anyway (without a 1st down). Is that extra 25 seconds what gets them in position for the FG? Probably not as 2:00 is an eternity anyway. So... run, run, run.

What would I do? Definitely pass on first or second down, high percentage, TE screen has been working well.

If it's 3rd and 3, and you want to run Chubb... here's a thought... DON'T line up with only one WR and both TEs in tight, FB in the backfield! Is there anyone on the planet that didn't know we were running?? They had nine men in the box because they had no reason to believe it would bite them. Four LBs available to cover two TEs and a Fullback IF we decided to pass.

It seems like we always put the opposition in the best situation to succeed without them even having to do any thinking!

Fixed it.

When I took the raiders for my pick, they were +6.5. or, the Browns were -6.5. I certainly didn't feel, with all the covid cases on the Browns, and a 3rd string qb with no starts for the Browns - that we would win by 7 or more.

I don't know where you got the 3 point spread.

j/c...

I'm allowing myself to get hooked again...what a sickness.

Ari Meirov
@MySportsUpdate
The #Packers placed WR Marquez Valdes-Scantling on the reserve/COVID-19 list. Green Bay plays on Saturday vs. Cleveland.

Camryn Justice
@camijustice
Packers HC Matt LaFleur said he doesn't anticipate LT David Bakhtiari or CB Jaire Alexander to play in Saturday's #Browns game.

That was the change in the point spread on the national betting line. But you're right. Are you saying you expected the Browns to win given those circumstances?

We just need Aaron, Davante, A. Jones, Dillon, and the Smiths to be put on the list and we have a chance.

It’s hard to understand your point because you sometimes change your argumentation whenever you’re countered with reasonable questions. We’re discussing our approach late in games when we have a a good winning possibility. Some of us argue that we’re a little bit too conservative and therefore throw away good opportunities. Both the offense and the defensive has these habits in my and many others view.

With better results comes higher expectations and therefore our coaching staff also needs to adjust there game plan so we play as a winning team the whole game, not only parts of it. As underdogs it’s acceptable with a mix results but if you’re going to take the next step and challenge the big guns you need consistency and a more brave approach.

The national betting line had nothing to do with your first post about this when you said "on dawgtalkers pickem" 14 people took the raiders. That doesn't mean what you think it means.

It's really hard for me to get on the defense when we are 5th in the NFL in ypg, 12th in points, and over the last 8 weeks we have averaged giving up less than 20 points and we are only 4-4 in those games.... and that includes our one game of giving up 45 points... If you take that one out, we are averaging giving up 15.5 points per game over 7 games and we are 4-3... Really hard to pin this on the defense.

Look at this game, the defense made the INT in the crucial situation to win the game, the offense just needed to get 1 first down... and they couldn't do it.

I said you were right or at least tried to. I said the prediction thread would have been a better example. Now what more do you want than that?

Now, back to my question. With 19 players on the covid list and starting our third string QB, under those circumstances did you think the Browns were going to win this game when you made your picks?

There would be some - somewhere for sure. Because some people aren't honest with themselves. It's the same with hindsight draft picks ... I can't speak to those people and I'm not worried about those people, I am simply telling you what I see as a problem. Before the play ran I wanted a play action pass and I would have lived or died with that play call quite happily even it it was an interception, a sack a fumble or an incompletion. Making that one play for 3 or 4 yards - virtually guarantees a win.

So the missed tackles on the play that allowed them to get into position to make the field goal is on the coaching staff?

And if they had allowed Mullens to pass and it was intercepted are you saying people wouldn't be asking why they didn't put the ball in the hands of our best play maker, Chubb?

You see, if and when the plays called work, it's not a problem. When the play selection fails it's always a problem. I would say it may have been better to have ran left instead of right on that play but putting the game in the hands of your best player on the field isn't something i'm going to question the coaching staff over. I'm also not going to blame them for a couple of missed tackles.

Play action would have been a viable alternative. I'm just not sure that means the play that was called was a bad one.

DC...my comment about playing NOT TO LOSE is directed at the coaches calling the defenses, not players. The players responsibility is to carry out their assignments and to give the effort needed to complete their assignment.

It's a shame those coaches missed those tackles that allowed the Raiders to get in FG range.

You revert to individuals when I and many others talks about our overall conservative approach.

Nothing wrong with giving our best offensive player maker the ball in a crucial situation but what’s wrong is to do it so often that your opponents often can read your 4Q game plan as a open book. I was 100% sure more then 30 seconds before our third attempt on our last drive that Chubb would run with the ball, and I think it’s fair to say that the Raiders coaching staff made a similar assessment. Our line up was so predictable that it was painful to watch the outcome. That’s 100% on our coaching staff. The best person inside our organization to change those habits is our GM. If he gives Stefanski a license to be more adventurous then our game plan would be less predictable. Just so there is no misunderstanding, I don’t say the game plan itself is bad just that sometimes it’s a little bit too easy to see what’s coming.

Regarding the defense I’m more then happy with what they produce but when the game is in it’s late stages our line up have a tendency to become static and little bit scared. I don’t like that because the best defenses often do the opposite and attack or blitz when there’s only one or two more plays to go.

When I make picks on the spread, I don't look at who I feel will WIN the game. It's fairly simple.

can someone go spread covid to the Ravens, Bengals, and Steelers? lol jk.

if they all lose, we can be back in first place with a win against Green Bay

I'm going to put this game in the rear view mirror after this, but this just occurred to me. I was aware that Myles Garrett was injured, but still playing. I have to believe that Joe Woods knew Myles was hurt too, but he still did not dial up anything more than a token CB blitz on a 2nd down in the Raiders final drive (that I saw). Putting pressure on Carr should have been paramount at that point in the game, and instead we dropped 7 into a rather crappy umbrella / zone D.

Oh well ... I'm done ... on to Green Bay.

yep

Just clicking.

Yeah let’s fire the coaches, that’s always done wonders for us.

You'd think so. But here we are!

Losing an AFC game is always a worse loss than losing an NFC game in the regular season for an AFC team under the current rules.

as it should be

Okay, then with 19 players on the Covid list and starting our third string QB, did you have any realistic expectations we would win this game?

I don't want anybody fired but if I hear "we have to own it and learn from it" one more time, after watching a winnable game slip away, I'm going to drive to Berea and kick somebody in the gonads. When does the "learn from it" actually start? What have we learned? What have we changed as a result of what we have learned?

Evidently one thing we have NOT learned is that if you are going to get real conservative in your playcalling late in games and put it all on your defense, then put your defense in soft zones to give up sizeable chunks of yardage at a time.. that you are really just setting yourself up to lose more slowly and painfully... we keep doing it, then when we lose we say we need to learn from it.

If he was truly interested in learning from the past, he'd sit down and watch film of his predecessors and start stealing their catchphrases to mix it up a little.

"Except for three or four runs, we shut them down. I have a gut feeling that we need to look at the film, but, we battled. They battled. On to the next one. Let's own our mistakes and learn from it and go 1-0 next week."

God no! I never want to hear "We battled" again!

No, not with the browns being -6.5. But that's irrelevant to your claim that "even people on dawgtalkers pickem's" didn't think the browns would win, which you used as some leverage point for your agenda.

You're talking in circles, as you always do. The answer, my friend, is you're twisting in the wind. As usual.

Even when someone apologizes when they misspoke it's not good enough for you. Since you refuse to be honest enough to answer the question even though you understand it, I'll stop asking. That's okay. We both know you didn't think they would win straight up. If you did you would have answered the question before now.

I followed this extremely repetitive conversation back about 5 or 6 posts and I'm still not sure what the answer to your question has to do with anything.

Dude, you straight up tried to use dawgtalker pickems as a leverage point for what people in that felt about the game - deciding that even Browns fans didn't expect them to win.

I have simply pointed out that the game is not about win or lose, it's about the spread. Period. End of discussion.

When I made my pick, with the Browns being -6.5, and with some 19 players out, I picked the raiders who had basically no one out.

It's really simple. I did not expect the Browns to win by 7 or more points. neither did the others. Why you can't get that through your head I have no idea.

It's to try and show that a game most people thought we had a very little chance of winning when being calm, rational and thinking through it, suddenly changed in the heat of the moment because the team played over their heads. We had a chance to win it in the end but that would have required a full four quarters of football by an outmatched team. When all was said and done it ended the way people expected it would before the game ever started and their emotions overruled their common sense. Sort of like people carrying on about the Ravens game which we actually won. So now it seems if we win, people aren't happy because of the way we won. If we are outmatched due to covid and a third string QB starting it's that we didn't overcome unbeatable odds.

So did you expect us to win the game outright or not? Just keep spewing on and avoid the question like you've done so far.

Two of the people on the pregame show picked the Browns to win.

No it didn't. Whatever happened for the first 57.5 minutes is irrelevant, we weren't perfect, the Raiders weren't perfect, none of that matters. It would have required one first down with 2 1/2 minutes to go in the game. That's all it would have taken, that's what it came down to. We were there.

So what if it did? I honestly gave us a 50/50 chance to win going in, I'm 100% mad about the way it ended... not 50%.

Stop throwing words around that don't apply.. they weren't unbeatable odds, we had the odds beat, we had the Raiders beat... We had a 1 point lead and the ball with 2:30 to play... I don't know, maybe our coaching staff thinks like you and was just happy we got that far and didn't care any more since we weren't supposed to win anyway...

Maybe they put the ball in the hands of our best offensive weapon and some people think that's the wrong thing to do. And of course the TV announcers pick both teams between them. That's what they get paid to do. If you actually think a healthy Raiders team isn't a mismatch against 19 players out on covid which caused us to start our third string QB, I would advise you not to bet on sports.

I care as much as anyone if we win. I just had a firm grasp of the obvious going into that game.

Three times in a row, behind our equally depleted OL, when every single person within a 100 mile radius KNEW that's what you were going to do? Yea, that was the wrong thing to do.

9 defenders in the box on first down, 7 in the box and 2 LBs just outside the box on second down, 9 in the box on third down... Nick Chubb is a phenomenal running back but this isn't a Marvel movie, he's still a human being who isn't going to run through 9 other grown ass men just because we would like him to.... and because we are scared to do anything different.

Sadly I think our coaches think a lot like you do. they would rather sit in a post game presser and say "Well, we gave the ball to Chubb, we believe in Chubb...." because it really is a hard point to argue... and they would rather say that and not get called out for it than have to defend why they called a play action bootleg for Nick Mullens to throw it to one of our TEs for a first down if it didn't work. Hell even Kurt Warner said during the timeout before the 3rd down play, "You just gotta wonder if the Browns are going to go for the win here or be satisfied handing the ball off and if you gotta punt...." He knew the odds of getting 3 yards against a 9 or 10 man box was highly unlikely....

You're changing your goal posts still. Your original post was about 14 people in the pickems didn't pick the Browns to win. You thought that proved something.

When I explained that betting against the spread was different than picking a winner or loser, you changed tactics/topics. Got that, Larry?

I think you and Kurt Warner should have your own show.

Talk about moving the goalposts. The pickem' is about the spread, not winning outright as you tried to use as a point of argument.

And the question was did you think the browns would win the game outright? As I said, check the game day prediction thread and you will see a lot of posters gave us no chance.

I've answered every one of the trolls questions. He's just got to change the topic, constantly, in an effort to apparently look smart? Look at his sig.

Low class is low class. yet he call's others out, then does the same damn thing himself.

last word Larry is a legit name. Sadly, he doesn't see it. Most do, but not larry. He'll be back to change the goal posts again. I guarantee it.

That is your post, I have class. Apparently you have 'change the topic".

You see DC, if you and Kurt had your own show you could fail to mention that even though with Chubb missing time he ranks fifth in the league in yards after contact. You could fail to mention that Chub scored a TD on a four yard run earlier in the game with very much the same Raiders defensive front. You could also fail to mention that we ran the ball better in the second half of the game than the first half by Chubb recording 42 of his 91 rushing yards in the fourth quarter alone. That way everyone could see only one side of something that looks much different when you put things in perspective.

And low class is still stalking.



Still avoiding the question.

I've answered your damn question, multiple times. You changed your question.

You know how a spread bet works, or not?????

Apparently not, or you you couldn't accept my reasoned response, or...........you're last word larry. Take your pick. Quit making yourself out to be the fool. Or don't, I don't care.

Quoted for truth.

Season on the line, and the coaches did not play to win.

They played to not lose, and how exactly did that turn out?

Man , this turned into a Hoot !

For the record, I expected the Browns to win. I always expect them to win. I never expect them to lose.

Betting lines have nothing to do with expectations.

All the while claiming you're the one with class.



What is it you say? Oh yes..... Then doesn't see it in himself.

Browns is the Browns.

Sigh, yeah, I can't believe we made that moron correct.

We just find ways to lose. It's really uncanny. If we lived in opposite world we'd be unbeatable in the clutch.

Our FO has been quite good all year, therefore they're the reason we lost (not replacing McLaughlin). you'd think it would be the 3rd string QB, but NOPE he played great! We had to find another way to let the loyal dawgs down.

I spent my entire life not knowing what it was like to root for a real football team, thought we had turned the corner but we found a way to botch it. Hurts so bad.

Myka, there is no guarantee that we haven't turned the corner. Agreed, it has been a trying season, full of unforeseen's that sunk us early.

Still, we have the nucleus of a fairly solid team. What I do not want, is for this front office to blow everything up all over again just like in the last 20 years. We can still build from this, as disappointing as the season has been.

.02

None of us want that, and the FO seems to have taken steps to keep key players. Signing Bitonio and Tretter are the latest examples.

No doubt we won't be able to keep everybody. We have a lot of guys on D that are on 1 year deals or expiring deals. I think we are going to try to keep some.

Yeah, our coaching staff is great, our FO is great, but we're still the Browns and get hit with terrible injuries, covid, kickers, etc. you name it, and if those don't get the job done the Refs step in.

I think we should fire everyone and hire only people that grew up Browns fans, because only a non-Browns fan wouldn't know to go for it on 4th down at the end of that game or call run/screen 2nd and 3rd. We've seen this movie. Every Browns fan knew as soon as we missed that kick we were gonna lose by 3 or less. Actions should've been taken. A special play. Anything.

Btw I'm not serious about that, don't think we should fire anyone, this is the best coaching staff + FO combo we've had since the return, it's just the Refs and Luck that keep getting us. Honestly, feels harder to beat than the other NFL teams.

“ hire only people that grew up Browns fans”

Sure, new Head Coach Drew Carey. So at his post game interviews, he can talk about where everything is made up and the points don’t matter.

Just like the past 20 years.

I think you mean Wyatt Teller, not Tretter.

Afraid I am the contrarian here. Ski went from Coach of the year to a Head scratcher year ( at the OC spot ) . Woods has never been my guy at DC. I will be curious to see how the off season plays out in those two areas ??????

In our last eight games the defense has given up more than 20 points exactly twice. Barking up the wrong tree doesn't help.

I've been down on play calling a fair amount this year but Stefanski is in year 2 of being a head coach and only in year 3 of being a play caller... I'm still not convinced he shouldn't give up the play calling but either way, he still has some learning to do... As for Woods, the defense has been really good as this year has progressed. Points are down, turnovers are up... the offense has repeatedly let us down.

Merry Christmas . Totally hear were your coming from .. Ski has been an OC in the League for a while now . I just think there is a disconnect with his QB. I am not sure Baker will reach his true ( as I see it ) potential under Ski. I am just stubborn when it comes to Woods . Don't like the style or scheme as it were .