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Posted By: FATE How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/08/22 05:04 PM
Well, I'm getting very close to the breaking point. To be honest, I don't even know how to feel (as a fan) anymore. On one hand, I'm hopeful... maybe the Rog will do something that actually makes sense. Hand down a 4-6 game suspension under the premise that a threshold has already been met for detrimental conduct, and that further suspension may be handed down at the conclusion of the court cases.

What I can't do is reckon my feelings of guilt for even feeling that way, as I feel that Watson's actions are more egregious than that decision would rectify. As a fan, my heart is nearly broken. Like others, I've rooted my whole life; and finally thought we were finishing this long journey to prominence -- a chance for a championship. This team doesn't belong to a greedy billionaire, it isn't the property of a QB who just arrived in the offseason, or even the longest tenured veteran on the roster. It belongs to the fans that have spent a lifetime rooting, usually against all odds.

It's a sick feeling. A pit in my stomach.


How did we get here?

Was Baker an adult? I don't know. I think he "dictated" a bit too much last year and had the "political capital" to do so, to a certain extent, because of his (and the team's) performance the year before. Also, as I've said before, the "gods" were cruel enough to keep us in the hunt so that the only argument seemed to be "who gives us the best chance this Sunday". Still, I can easily imagine the difference between Stefanski, a coach that wants to work through consensus, that wants a players input, that wants peace and cohesion; and someone like Tomlin, who would stare into space with a stoic look and a stern jaw and utter three words as his decision. Two different worlds.

So Baker's performance (if not antics) leads to looking into the Watson situation. At who's direction though? That's not Berry and Berry alone. He's not even entertaining the idea without the consent of Haslam -- no how, no way.

Somewhere along that "five-month saga", Haslam became empowered to "win at all costs"... that mindset went into overload when Baker penned his goodbye message. Left with the window falling closed, he pushed all the chips into the center of the table.

I respected that because I believed in their "due diligence". I tried to reason within my own mind that accelerating "the plan" at this point was the right thing to do. I was shocked at the price tag though. I still have a hard time believing that Berry and DePodesta would be 100% on-board with this decision. There is no way in hell that they were tugging Haslam along though. DePodesta's mantra and definition of analytics is "having sure frameworks to make decisions under uncertainty". There was way too much uncertainty (and absolutely no surety), in selling the farm for Watson, for anyone bent on flow-chart analytics to think this was a prudent decision. Sure, they played along because they knew the boss was hell-bent on making it all happen, but you'll never convince me this was his (their) idea. This was all Jimmy Haslam.

I've defended him since he took over the team, through thick and thin. I felt validated the day he pulled the trigger on cashing in -- and traded Sashi for John Dorsey. But once again, his haste, his lack of patience, has led us to a place where upside seems like a pipe dream and downside is back into the pit of irrelevance and laughing stock. It makes me want to throw up.


Watson's choices, and how they pertain to "us", have narrowed moving forward. If he doesn't bust his butt to settle these cases I feel that we are, in a word, "screwed". There will be a whole new landscape of things that analytics never accounted for. His distance from the team and FO as the story reveals more lurid details, his dishonesty playing out while they disagree on what he should do. The magnifying glass getting bigger and bigger as tension builds among the ranks, from coaches all the way up to the top. Finger-pointing by the media and fans, finger-pointing within the org... It will all end badly...


Worst case scenario:

Berry will not be fired -- he will resign. He's better than this and won't submit to being the "fall guy". Haslam will clean house after a subpar season and reassemble a cast of "yes men" so he can continue to fuel his fire of control. Veterans won't want to come here to be the brunt of the latest jokes, draft choices will come from second-tier talent. Another big mess.


Best case scenario:

Watson humbles himself and starts writing checks, the media fire begins to smolder, the Browns "battle" in his absence as we watch him re-invent himself off the field. He offers earnest apologies and admits he has a serious problem. There's a chance that this could result in (only lol) one lost season. Many will find it in their heart to root for a second chance.

Unfortunately, I don't see this playing out. I hate to judge and I don't walk in his shoes or know his heart, but the demeanor is troubling to me. I feel like he is so deep in his lies that he won't cross that line and admit any guilt. Worst case of "DeShaun Watson -- the person" is pathological, sociopathic, sexual predator. I'm not saying that's who he is, I'm saying that's who he may be.


In the end, for me, this is all still tainted. I doubt anything will ever truly take the "brown and orange" out of my blood; but even the "best case", even this resulting in a championship, will likely not be as satisfying as it should. I've already drawn one line, I gave up my season tickets. It was hard to do but I was firmly in the the camp of not paying for something that tilts my moral compass (think what you want, I'm not trying to virtue signal, I've just adopted that "not with my dollar" attitude more and more over time).

It reminds me of the Cavs when LeBron came back, the goodbye letters from all the players that had busted their buns, for a "superteam" -- it almost felt like cheating. In the end, a banner washed all that "sin" away. Maybe the same can be true with the Browns, but anything less will be devastating... and even that will feel dirty.

The spirit of "sport" has become so polluted with outside noise, cheating, super teams, dirty deals, dirty players, billionaires playing puppet-master; nearly all of the sanctity is gone. I love sport for those special moments and sharing them with the people I love. I love being the underdog... this story was shaping up quite nicely for the long arduous journey to pay off with the ultimate reward... void of guilt and shame.

This latest road began for me, in earnest, watching Baker Mayfield light-up the Jets; and my son -- standing in a sea of downtrodden Browns fans, a voice in the roar of the crowd, screaming "folks, I think we finally have a quarterback!". It hasn't ended yet, but what keeps going through my head is the text from another son (I was driving home from Fort Wayne and knew nothing of the Watson signing), "I don't know whether to be excited or utterly terrified".

Once again, a script that couldn't be penned in Hollywood becomes our beloved Cleveland Browns.
Posted By: Hammer Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/08/22 06:01 PM
Well expressed Fate - could not agree more. My feelings exactly.
Posted By: PortlandDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/08/22 09:01 PM
I feel similar on some level but I also fully accept it’s all out if my control. Will Watson play, not play? Will Baker sit, be traded, come back?

I have no idea. So I just go about my life and see what happens. I’m not giving up my fandom. With or without Watson or Baker I’ve suffered through watching far worse rosters playing football over the years.

I have my thoughts on Watson. (Leaning towards the unfavorable.) I have my thoughts on Baker. (Leaning towards the unfavorable for different reasons.) In the grand scheme neither matter.
Maybe because I’m so far from Ohio it’s not ‘local news’ so I only hear about it here or my occasional glances at the NFL Network talkingheads while channel surfing. I only have three NFL fan friends. Two former Ohioans. One has since declared his fandom is over. He meant it. He sold all of his collectibles and such. Everything. Done. He doesn’t say anything to me about my looking forward to the season. Though we just don’t talk football anymore. It was only a piece of our friendship connection anyway. The other two have active lives that football is only a small fraction of. While fans they aren’t beholden to watch every game. I on the other hand try to catch every game. I rarely miss one. If I suffered through every Couch, Garcias 0.0 QBR, Weeden, JFF, etc snap I can certainly live with a Jacoby Brissett season if that’s what unfolds. We have a roster that can win. Maybe we catch lightning in a bottle. Foles won a SB. Is Brissett that much worse?

Summary, to me football is entertainment. Nothing more. I ‘love’ the Browns but only as much as anyone should love something so intangible and nonreciprocal. I want entertained. I’ll let the courts and the NFL decide what’s next.

Go Browns.
Posted By: FORTBROWNFAN Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/08/22 09:06 PM
To answer the thread question; I just want to watch the Browns, and hopefully watch them win. I am waiting for the Watson thing to finalize, or at least find out what the NFL plan is. I can remain a Browns fan regardless of the guilt of innocence of DW, but I will have a bit of queasiness in my gut watching if everything he is accused of turns out true. I have been a fan since 1969 so that will not change.

Watson's teammates seem to like him if that matters at all.

If fans from other teams want to chastise the Browns, go ahead as most teams have had scuzzy players. I didn't feel any less for their fans, except maybe Baltimore fans as they railed for years how horrible it was when the Colts left, then enthusiastically welcomed the old Browns.
Posted By: SuperBrown Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/08/22 09:45 PM
Nice post Fate.

I've been a fan since Brian Sipe was playing. I have never missed a game either by TV or radio. I have suffered every painful loss as we all have, especially since 1999. This Watson mess is the final coup de grâce.

Imagine if Watson was allowed to play every game this season and we become Super Bowl Champs. Talk about mixed emotions! Talk about selling your soul to the devil!

I am afraid your worst case scenario is how it plays out. You explained that well. It would break my heart to see Berry go, but look at the HUGE chance he took signing this guy.

When it was announced, it reeked desperation at the highest levels!

2023 - Berry and Stefanski gone. The team will implode and we will be back to 2017. Haslam, yes men and the downward cycle continued.
Posted By: Dave Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/08/22 10:14 PM
I can't root for Deshaun Watson. He can't be QB for the team I have loved for over 50 years. If he is, I'm out as a Browns' fan. If that happens - and I realize it probably will - I will feel something very close to grief. I know about losing loved ones, and I won't put it on the same footing as those because they were devastating. But its a kick in the gut, just like it was in 1995 when the Browns left for Baltimore. And before anyone says I am judging unfairly, I would only say that what I believe is that one or two occurrences is a rumor, three or four is a trend, five or six is alarming ..... twenty-four is a screaming siren with red & blue flashing lights. Yes, I believe the women.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/08/22 10:22 PM
For me, I don't worry about it. I am a fan.

If I worry any, I'll worry when all of this plays out. Until then worry doesn't help anything.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/08/22 10:45 PM
j/c:

I am upset because I finally had some hope for the Browns to have a legit chance to win. I knew we had no shot w/Baker due to all the talent in the AFC. I had resigned myself to that it was depressing because I really didn't see anyone in the draft or in FA that I thought would be enough to get us to the upper echelon. Russ was close, but he takes too many sacks and isn't very good passing from a normal pocket. He has to drop too deep and thus the sacks occur. Most of his throws come off script. Other than that, I didn't see anyone who could get us over the hump.

All of a sudden, we get Watson and I won't apologize for being excited about the acquisition. He gave us a shot. I also will never be ashamed of not convicting a guy in public conversations and instead allowing the legal system to decide. There are folks on here who act like that is wrong. I'm good w/my position and I think many others shared that belief but didn't want to get shouted down and abused by a few posters who do the same thing in multiple forums. Now, it looks like the NFL has no choice other than to hand down a significant suspension on Watson. Thus, my feeling is now even worse than before we acquired him because it's one thing to not have hope and it's quite another to be given hope and have it snatched away.

My other thought as a fan is that it bothers me that our fan base has so many members that care more about one player than they do the team. I think that causes problems among the fan base, makes its way into the media, and eventually the locker room and even the organization. It's toxic to the entire organization.
Posted By: AZBrown Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/08/22 11:15 PM
My dad took me to my first game when Mike Phipps was our quarterback. There were some bad teams in the 70s, the three major disappointments in the 80s and obviously what happened in the 90s. But there was always this feeling (in my family at least) that the Browns' woes would be righted at some point with a championship.

For me, that feeling was sustained even in the earliest parts of The Return with our roster problems. I probably got overly excited after 2002, 2007, the first chunk of the Hoyer season, and a couple of times in the last 3 years.
And in each of those instances, there was major disappointment.

At this point, I'm a little numb I guess. With each bad decision, piece of bad luck or inexplicable circumstance, I get less outraged. It's just the way it is. The surprise or shock is gone.

I'm a lifelong fan. That will never change, and I will watch every single game as long as I'm able. That's part of the deal at this point I guess.

I will say it's been uncomfortable talking to my 87 year old father about the particulars of what went on with Watson and why he probably won't be our QB this year.

That's the way I feel as a fan.

Go Browns.

.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/09/22 12:38 AM
I feel as though our FO was trying to do everything they could to bring a winner here by signing DW. Maybe they did do there homework and made the best decision on the facts they were given. Who knows. It could be they were lied to or weren't told everything. If that's the case and DW is facing a significant suspension then we should be allowed to void the deal. The deal should be canceled. That's the fair thing to do.
Posted By: bonefish Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/09/22 01:31 AM
Well expressed.

I don't know how to feel. Sometimes it seems important and at other times trivial. Uvalde has shaken me to my core.

I understand going after Watson the player. The money to me is meaningless. Fair market value determines worth. You get paid as much as someone is willing to pay.

I do not doubt Watson as a player. The cases against him? What I would like to happen is what is just and fair. However determining that and getting there is another story.

I read about how the Haslam people investigated. The local Texas police investigated. The grand jury heard testimony and looked at whatever evidence was presented. The NFL has run their investigation. Now newspapers are investigating. Now Buzbee is going after the Texans.

I don't buy into convicting anyone before everything is put out into the open and you can be sure before you sentence. So far Buzbee is playing to the court of public opinion. Watson has said little.

Haslam has said he is secure in what they know. Does he know all?

In the end I have to either accept what is decided or not. I don't know how to feel? All I really want is to win the games the Browns play.

So I will wait and see where this all goes because it far from my control. Somebody will play quarterback for the Browns and when they play I will watch and hope the Browns win the game.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/09/22 05:25 AM
Well if we are being honest, the NFL did a crap job on their 'due diligence' in letting Haslam buy the Browns in the first place. How long was it before we started to get drug through the mud over his seemingly nefarious flying J scandal? The hell of it is, this FO had the chance to be historically great and I can't help but feel they have ruined any chance of that now.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/09/22 11:45 AM
Homes, I don't think we should void the deal even if we were somehow able to. Even if Watson is suspended for a year, we would have a top 7 qb for 10 years or more. I don't think the Browns are going to find another qb who is even close to him.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/09/22 12:22 PM
To add to previous comments, I root for the team, not a position or player. If we just take the QB out of the mix for a moment, do we have a good team? I say yes.

That said, I don't think having Brissett as QB for the year or whatever will all of a sudden makes us a 5 win team. I think we still think we are a playoff team. I think as good of a team as we have, it will elevate the play of Brissett, who when you look at it wasn't all that bad to begin with.

QB's aren't always the person to elevate other players performance. It works the other way as well.
Posted By: FORTBROWNFAN Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/09/22 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
QB's aren't always the person to elevate other players performance. It works the other way as well.

I tend to agree. I have seen QBs in this league have great rookie seasons, or maybe 1-3 years then fall off the earth. It always irked me when people quote SB wins as if the QB was the only player on the team. I once heard a media guy question Dan Marino because he never won a Superbowl. I have heard QBs get blamed for 42-39 type losses where it is clearly the D that failed. Obviously QB is a critical position, but one just has to look at the Baltimore game that Baker led a go ahead drive late in the 4th quarter only to have our D give up a really quick score and we lose. And no, I am not advocating for Baker, just making a point that he took them on a clutch drive late only to lose.

Joe Burrow seems to get all the credit for the Bengals playoff run last year but to me their defense won the TN game. Only points in 4th quarter was a 52 yd fg with time expiring. I am not even trying to say Burrow isn't exceptional, but QBs that are consistently upper tier for a long time are rare.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/09/22 03:16 PM
I think we could name many QB's who benefited by being on the team they were on more than the team benefitted by the QB being on the team. Naturally all of that would be subjective...
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/09/22 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I also will never be ashamed of not convicting a guy in public conversations and instead allowing the legal system to decide. There are folks on here who act like that is wrong. I'm good w/my position and I think many others shared that belief but didn't want to get shouted down and abused by a few posters who do the same thing in multiple forums.

You are such a victim. Whining is not attractive.

rofl

In regards to the question at hand. 24 women and counting aren't all liars. In our society many claim we should hold people accountable for their actions. Until I guess they wear a Browns uniform. Then all bets are off. When it comes to Berry and DePodesta, I have no way of knowing if this was their idea and I won't claim to know unless facts come to the forefront that convince me otherwise. But what I do know is that Haslam did approve. He signed the deal and the signing bonus check. He claimed they did their due diligence then I find out they never talked to a single victim. I've found inconsistencies in watson's depositions.

So it comes down to a choice for me. Do I support that? Does my fandom mean more to me than condoning the abuse of women? Do I help contribute to line the pockets of people who make such decisions and by rewarding watson with that huge contract? Is doing nothing to support women when things such as this happen something I can do? The answer is no, I can't.

Quote
The team's $2.175 billion valuation is almost $1.2 billion above the $987 million the Haslams paid for the team in 2012. Since the Haslams purchased the Browns, two other NFL teams have been sold

https://www.crainscleveland.com/kev...wns-value-rises-225-million-2175-billion

Will the money I spent on the Browns make a huge impact on any of that? No. Can I bring myself to continue with financially supporting this man and help contribute to watson's salary? No. I can't just blindly turn away from what has happened here and pretend it's okay or bring myself to value the Browns more than the abuse of women.
Posted By: EveDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/10/22 02:11 AM
jc

Mostly I just want the DW drama over. If he will be our QB then so be it. If he isnt, then move on. I hate the limbo feeling.

My partner is a Chargers fan. We are going to Cle for the Browns v Chargers game. All I care about is DW better be ready to go for this game.
If he isnt, I will be mad. I want a good game. Its too pricey to travel just to see us suck.
Posted By: Bard Dawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/10/22 05:10 PM
Good insight, 'Peen. It is a team sport, neh? But about the drama that Eve mentions, and I had the thought that our "beat writers" are more like our "beating writers" piling on DW while his situation is decided. (Our newspaper always picks the most negative articles they can cut and paste for Browns coverage.
My gripe is about the NFL treatment of the team as a whole IMO. Seems like triple jeopardy if you consider our fix. We have DW waiting as he works through issues, some made more public and inflamed by the media who are sensationalizing the story about what might be the shakeout. His season has started, mandatory practices are coming, and in fairness, if he has playable status, then he should be able to do so. He is living in limbo while his investigation drags on; if he is in the wrong as this woman establishes as the appointed one by the commish, so be it, settle up, and then move on. But the last 'risk' is whenever that happens eventually, the results can be revisited, the ruling challenged or revised or reduced by Goodell according to anything from whim to reason. The Browns have a right to a timely outcome to plan camps, practice, roster to be ready for the season and make team decisions. Again, my opine.
I am not defending any wrong DW may have done. But he should not be strung out and strung along either. Goodell delegated almost unlimited say in situations like these; my take is the process should be thorough AND reasonably timely so injury isn't added against any NFL team or player who has potentially brought 'insult' in some way to the NFL game.
As I said before, I am all about my faith in the right to due process; but I have issues with "undue process" that hurt players or teams beyond the issues requiring attention. Remember that these are all additional layers beyond legal arenas: Courts AND then this. If Goodell wants to be the destination and chokepoint for discipline, which has been criticized before, then resolve it in a reasonable and timely fashion. This is, after all, the same immaculate machine that has worked so well with Josh Gordon, a testament legacy to NFL discipline.
So my closing thought is this: If any and all acts are considered and found to be wrong, then spell it out so it is clear what is being punished while also establishing some clarifying guardrails moving forward. The NFL deserves better, and the season deserves our attention.
Go, Browns!
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/10/22 05:30 PM
Question. How can you "resolve" an issue that is ongoing? Do you make a ruling without now investigating these latest two cases? And if so, do you later investigate these last two cases and anymore that seem to be coming and add more punishment to watson's suspension for those cases?

I certainly understand why fans want to get it over and done with. I understand that they are tired of hearing about it and want a conclusion and finality to it. But how do you propose anyone can do that with more and more cases and more and more information coming out all the time? Should they look at all of it which they certainly haven't had the time to do in these last two cases, or are you suggesting they simply ignore these latest cases and act like they didn't happen?
Posted By: FORTBROWNFAN Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/10/22 06:02 PM
[quote=PitDAWG]Question. How can you "resolve" an issue that is ongoing? Do you make a ruling without now investigating these latest two cases? And if so, do you later investigate these last two cases and anymore that seem to be coming and add more punishment to watson's suspension for those cases?]




To answer your question, hasn't the league already said what the plan was? Granted it was before the last couple incidents came to light, but didn't they say they would not take action until all the civil stuff is over? Did I miss the league announcing a change in that strategy? I am not saying I agree or disagree or even whether it is a good strategy or not.

I do think a lot of the confusion comes from constant media experts reporting their opinions on what DWs penalty will be. I may be wrong, but I don't recall any of these indicating they were a result of a league source. If I am correct about the stories having no basis, then it remains a possibility this may be an entire season out. If I am wrong about the sources, then I withdraw my comments.

I don't like it, but I am so sick of articles that mean nothing I just want the season to start no matter who the QB is. This was not meant to be confrontational at all, just answering the question. Also, just my 2 cents.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/10/22 06:11 PM
Quote
I don't like it, but I am so sick of articles that mean nothing

Well, they are posted over and over and over again in some desperate attempt to convince other board members to convict a man in the court of public opinion. So, I guess they are meaningful in a weird sort of way. LOL

Anyway......I really liked your post and I feel much the same way as you and Bard do.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/10/22 06:46 PM
Nobody is how has tried to "convince anyone". And I guess you missed the fact that over the past week two more suits were filed, The New York Times found many new details in their investigation that have been reported. That's news. That has a direct impact on the Browns and all of the false claims that try to act like this isn't an ever developing story are misleading at best and hold no merit.
Posted By: FORTBROWNFAN Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/10/22 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Quote
I don't like it, but I am so sick of articles that mean nothing

Well, they are posted over and over and over again in some desperate attempt to convince other board members to convict a man in the court of public opinion. So, I guess they are meaningful in a weird sort of way. LOL

Anyway......I really liked your post and I feel much the same way as you and Bard do.

Thanks for the good words. I meant to add most the articles I was speaking of were from Facebook Browns "sites". I don't always open the attached articles in DT. I notice the FB ones because they always have such a certainty in their title, so I open them like an idiot to find out what that writer feels the punishment should be and when. I generally just skim the DW stuff on here other than actual in season or draft stuff; because to me it is a lot like Common Core Math or a Presidential Election where a lot of talk happens with no minds being changed anyway. I throw my 2 cents in occasionally.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/10/22 07:10 PM
Wise words, Fort. You're a good dude.
Posted By: Bard Dawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/10/22 09:52 PM
I apparently failed to make my point from the angle I attempted to express. Your response feels like words in my mouth that I never intended.
I think to a degree, yes. Establish a time to measure the situation and 'rule' on that. Resolve and get some closure out of fairness. I never wanted DW to avoid punishment or suspension when found wrong. My point was that the women, the player, this team, and the Browns franchise need some closure to function and that shouldn't be worsened by the NFL's handling. Even crime in the real world has some statutes of limitations. It is fair to know a starter, to know your roster needs, and have some framework for whatever discipline is hands down because it affects many people. I am suggesting if you manage this and finalize that much fine. Everybody knows what going forward will look like. That closure offers a chance for rationale and for clarification. You gain by having a precedent functionally in place. If more comes up needing further attention, investigation, discipline, consequence, or clarification, do that then.
I personally find your question unfair about do I ignore what is happening as it is ongoing. If that is your suggestion pretending to be an argument that it is the direction I want, it is not. But the flip side is unfair and unworkable IMO. How long is long enough? How long does a player and franchise wait before the NFL executes the duty it has reserved entirely unto itself? Even a common criminal can get some time served while waiting. Draw some lines in the dirt as needed and take some of the media noise out of this. Or state we will wait a few years on the off chance something else might come in or someone else come forward. If they do, then act as needed in timely fashion, always in an attempt to realize closure and direction.
I will try to be clearer. Kind of tired of this process; it invites attacks, fair or not. This situation is causing damage to this team beyond DW's actions before joining the Browns.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/10/22 10:42 PM
Quote
Your response feels like words in my mouth that I never intended.

Welcome to the club. He does it to multiple posters across the forums. Btw Bard, I perfectly understood your message the first time. You're good.
Posted By: jaybird Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/10/22 11:28 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
For me, I don't worry about it. I am a fan.

If I worry any, I'll worry when all of this plays out. Until then worry doesn't help anything.


I'm pretty similar... as I've gotten older, sports have seemed less important... I still watch and cheer hard, but I don't take the losses like I use to... there are more important things in life...

and I've learned so much is out of my control... So I still pay attention and have an opinion but frankly it doesn't affect me much if the browns win the super bowl or lose every game...
Posted By: jfanent Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/10/22 11:32 PM
I'll be watching the games and pulling for the Orange and Brown to win. Screw the politics. Look at every other team in our division. The rats had two violent Ray-rays.....one involved in a murder and the other cold cocked his woman in an elevator. The bungles had the violent thugs Burfict and Pacman, and their current running back decked a woman with a roundhouse punch. The Steelers had the rapistberger. Violent criminals all. They all worked thru the crap, and so will the Browns. No, I don't condone any of that behavior. I'll let the politics work itself out and concentrate on football. Despite the popular arguments, what Watson is accused of doesn't compare to what these aforementioned players did. ....and he hasn't even been found guilty as of yet. I also think we can win some games with Brisset.
Posted By: lampdogg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 12:29 AM
I’ll back them always. I’ll never stop being a Browns fan, it’s been 34 years and that’s what I do. No choice really. The Move and the futility since the return hasn’t wavered me, the DW situation won’t, either.

I wish Baker had consolidated his second half of 2020 with a strong performance , so we wouldn’t be where we are now, but for whatever reasons if did not happen.
Posted By: DeisleDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 12:47 AM
As a fan I love them !

Since the age of 6 when I started to like football and teams.

I liked the Browns, the Chiefs, the Colts, the Vikings and the patriots .

That was back in the 60's and early 70's because I grew up 4 streets away from the NFL HOF ,

So as kids we would go there and look at the helmets and like the decal on them.

Growing up in Canton and having family in Cleveland the Browns eventually became my team of choice.

My cousin in 74 to 77 played for the Lions and that was my NFC team , still is .

Life in general is drama and road blocks..

As a fan ? still going to be one and will be until the day I die.

I have no control on what that organization does and what they do with.

I have control if I want to be a fan or not or control if I watch or not !

Always going to be a fan ! my choice, doesn't mean I'll keep going to games or going somewhere to watch them.

May not watch them for a few games, months or years.

They will always be the team I root for, which makes me a fan for life.
Posted By: Homewood Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 03:25 AM
I feel the same. I've been a Browns fan since 1967 and I'll always be a Browns fan. It's a love that won't stop. This may not be popular, but I really feel Jimmy Haslam wants to bring a Super Bowl winner here in the worst way that's why some of these decisions were made. I hope he does. JMO
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 09:52 AM
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I also will never be ashamed of not convicting a guy in public conversations and instead allowing the legal system to decide. There are folks on here who act like that is wrong. I'm good w/my position and I think many others shared that belief but didn't want to get shouted down and abused by a few posters who do the same thing in multiple forums.

You are such a victim. Whining is not attractive.

rofl

In regards to the question at hand. 24 women and counting aren't all liars. In our society many claim we should hold people accountable for their actions. Until I guess they wear a Browns uniform. Then all bets are off. When it comes to Berry and DePodesta, I have no way of knowing if this was their idea and I won't claim to know unless facts come to the forefront that convince me otherwise. But what I do know is that Haslam did approve. He signed the deal and the signing bonus check. He claimed they did their due diligence then I find out they never talked to a single victim. I've found inconsistencies in watson's depositions.

So it comes down to a choice for me. Do I support that? Does my fandom mean more to me than condoning the abuse of women? Do I help contribute to line the pockets of people who make such decisions and by rewarding watson with that huge contract? Is doing nothing to support women when things such as this happen something I can do? The answer is no, I can't.

Quote
The team's $2.175 billion valuation is almost $1.2 billion above the $987 million the Haslams paid for the team in 2012. Since the Haslams purchased the Browns, two other NFL teams have been sold

https://www.crainscleveland.com/kev...wns-value-rises-225-million-2175-billion

Will the money I spent on the Browns make a huge impact on any of that? No. Can I bring myself to continue with financially supporting this man and help contribute to watson's salary? No. I can't just blindly turn away from what has happened here and pretend it's okay or bring myself to value the Browns more than the abuse of women.


I understand the thinking, but I don't think you spent a whole lot of money supporting the team anyway...and that isn't a knock. I met you at maybe 2 tailgates over the last 20 years of knowing you. I suppose you have bought a hat or three in that time.

Again, I am not knocking you to any extent, I am just saying your decision of non-support rings a bit hollow in that regard.
Posted By: bonefish Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 12:22 PM
Interesting.

Posted By: mgh888 Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 01:06 PM
I don't like the guys style - 2:17 and he's already annoying me. I only kept going because you were the one who posted it.

Playing 5 second sound bites from talking heads - talking about Robert Kraft - doesn't make a case for what situation DW did or didn't do.

The Houston angle is a 100% deflection and shifting blame from what DW and trying to shift focus to someone else. Houston got named - we don't have any significant facts, this whole take is with the assumption Houston is 100% complicit. I think that's 100% faulty "logic" and a massive reach. If Houston are found to have been more active, with knowledge, lied/misled the NFL or the Browns - then sure they need to be investigated.

At the moment you have 24 allegations against DW - you got a minimum of 66 different therapists in 17 months, you have a payment to a Spa Owner 'just because' against DW .... You have Houston named without a lot of substance at the movement. This guy has already assumed both are equally guilty. I don't think this is a good take. And while I think Kraft got off "Scott Free" - thinking one of the most important owners in the NFL who managed to hush his indiscretion up immediately - and DW are going to be treated the same is naive or just contrived controversy for a 'Hot Take'
Posted By: jfanent Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by mgh888
At the moment you have 24 allegations against DW - you got a minimum of 66 different therapists in 17 months

As far as we know, only 9 of the 24 allegations were from actual therapists. From what we've heard about the others, few were actually licensed.
Posted By: Bard Dawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 01:16 PM
Thanks for that. For all the "participation" we have seen in this thread and on this topic, I thought mine went some new places in new ways. I am still struggling with how the bar-setting happens. Thanks again, and regards, Vers.

Go, Browns!
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 01:23 PM
Originally Posted by jfanent
Originally Posted by mgh888
At the moment you have 24 allegations against DW - you got a minimum of 66 different therapists in 17 months

As far as we know, only 9 of the 24 allegations were from actual therapists. From what we've heard about the others, few were actually licensed.

I think they can get those in Nevada.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 01:25 PM
bone, the guy has a valid point that the Texans should also be culpable if all of the allegations are true. However, the NFL is not going to punish an owner. Look at their history. Remember all the crap that went down w/Irsay in Indy? They did next to nothing. Snyder is a slime ball who had numerous allegations of sexual and social misconduct going on w/in the organization. What did the NFL do? They threw a popular white coach under the bus by releasing some of his emails in a lame attempt to deflect attention away from Snyder and Washington's organization. Does anyone really think they are going to help a black player by also going after a white, racist owner?

Once again, I think Watson's attorneys should go after the NFL hard if Watson is suspended. There are a multitude of cases where the NFL has made outrageous and unfair decisions and many involve minorities while protecting white billionaires. The NFL may write policies that say they can suspend players at their discretion, but workers have rights in this country and if Watson's attorneys can show the courts that the NFL has a lengthy history of punishing employees while excusing poor behavior from ownership, the courts might put an end to these unfair practices. Congress is already involved in part of Snyder's issues.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 01:34 PM
Originally Posted by FATE
How do YOU really feel, as a fan?
How do YOU really feel, as a fan?
Posted By: bonefish Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 01:42 PM
I saw it and it was just a point of view.

Just like Florio or anyone else.

Everyone has their way of looking at this. All takes are valid.

In the end a decision will come by the NFL. Something will eventually happen with the civil cases.

It is interesting to see how the media (all media) have their views. We as fans sit and absorb what the media puts out. I wonder if everyone picks up on the "tone" of the media.



Posted By: mgh888 Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by jfanent
Originally Posted by mgh888
At the moment you have 24 allegations against DW - you got a minimum of 66 different therapists in 17 months

As far as we know, only 9 of the 24 allegations were from actual therapists. From what we've heard about the others, few were actually licensed.

Thanks for the correction - I guess when I say 'Therapists" I don't automatically mean they are licensed - but I can see that it might seem implied. TBH - 9 licensed professional therapists is a lot. My back is shot - I've been getting massages every 3 or 4 weeks for a few years. I find one I like and stick with them till they move. Some do more stretching of the legs and elbows to the glutes etc - but never once has my junk ever come close to being seen, touched or anything close to what DW is accused of. The comments I have seen on other web sites that insinuate that because these women are massage therapists and they "must" see men's junk all the time, must get asked for happy endings all the time - and probably provide them most of the time ... that somehow because of their profession this is expected and should be dismissed out of hand does not sit well. . . . The non Licensed individuals - I guess we'd need to see what and how they advertised, try to find out from other clients what the setting and situation was like. My current therapist is licensed because she has a certificate on the well, but it's not something I had ever thought of before. When I needed a new therapist - I went to google maps in my areas, searched massage and read reviews and tried to find someone that had a substantial number of good reviews. I'm willing to bet I've seen unlicensed therapists - and the professionalism and service was just like who I see now. So even the unlicensed therapists DW met with - there's every chance they were "legit" - and no doubt some of those 66 were not, and maybe some or many of the 24 .... idk. But I won't talk or act like somehow what they do, how they advertise etc is an automatic assumption they are sex workers. (Not at all saying that's your contention - just started typing).
Posted By: mgh888 Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 01:45 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish
I saw it and it was just a point of view.

Just like Florio or anyone else.

Everyone has their way of looking at this. All takes are valid.

In the end a decision will come by the NFL. Something will eventually happen with the civil cases.

It is interesting to see how the media (all media) have their views. We as fans sit and absorb what the media puts out. I wonder if everyone picks up on the "tone" of the media.


Very true -- interesting that they were National Media takes ... not Local Media, a false insinuation recently made here on DT.
Posted By: jfanent Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 02:03 PM
Quote
I guess we'd need to see what and how they advertised, try to find out from other clients what the setting and situation was like.

That's been my contention all along.
Posted By: bonefish Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 02:45 PM
The grand jury hearings were closed. Hours spent listening to testimony and whatever evidence was presented.

They decide not to indict.

Now the lawyers are playing their case to the media and the court of public opinion.

The accusers are interviewed. They are compelling. People watch and judge.

Watson refuses to go public. That maybe based upon what his lawyer suggests.

However, the public is left with one side. Nobody has witnessed a trial. Nobody has been cross examined in front of the public. Nobody has seen whatever evidence there is.

At the same time it appears that many have an opinion on what punishment should be doled out.

Some people watched the Depp vs Heard. They were able to hear both sides state their side and then get crossed examined.

The NFL ran their own investigation. They don't care about guilt or innocence. They have their set of rules "personal code of conduct."
They get to do what they see fit to do.

The NFL does not impose the same policy when it comes to the owners obviously.

There will be no justice because there are no rules for justice only points of view. Civil court only determines liabilty and compensation. The exception of course is the grand jury and even then that does not insure that justice is served.

How do I feel? Not satisfied.
Posted By: mgh888 Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish

How do I feel? Not satisfied.

I honestly think that's a statement 99% of fans would agree with at this time.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 06/11/22 04:44 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
I understand the thinking, but I don't think you spent a whole lot of money supporting the team anyway...and that isn't a knock. I met you at maybe 2 tailgates over the last 20 years of knowing you. I suppose you have bought a hat or three in that time.

Again, I am not knocking you to any extent, I am just saying your decision of non-support rings a bit hollow in that regard.

I understand how you somehow think that $$$ means more than principal. There's a lot of that going around these days. I understand how you think $$$ quantifies what's hollow. I think that's a shame, but so it is. And I've bought a lot more than "a hat or three".
Posted By: hitt Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/01/22 01:32 PM
Born in 48 in Lakewood, been fan since about 58- seen Browns GREAT and LOUSY. Browns like life- they keep changing and don't effect my life much. DW brought in because he's a great football player- proven, both at Clemson and Texans. Like all of us he's flawed- some good and bad. Women in a body heal/fix business- JMHO- no body part should scare them or "hurt"/damage them unless they are assaulted/beaten. MONEY is the common thread- pursuit of money- 20 of 24. Those with money losing some- those without gaining some= Jerry McGuire - show me the money.

Hope Browns have great season, time will tell.
Posted By: SaintDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/01/22 01:51 PM
My feelings?

The best thing that can happen is Watson gets hit by a bus. We shop for another QB that does not have women / legal issues and is not a sex pest. We continue to let AB run the show and Jimmy steps the F back.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/01/22 03:40 PM
I don't know if that was more sad or more sickening. Take your pick.
Posted By: WooferDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/02/22 01:17 AM
Not excited. Can see Watson suspended and Baker playing the year. Worst case scenario in true Browns fashion, they win the Super Bowl.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/02/22 12:20 PM
Really no different than any other year. I am ready to go up and watch the Browns. I don't really care all that much about other stuff.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/02/22 04:55 PM
How do you really feel as a fan.

Betrayed : Cambridge English dictionary. : To not be loyal to your country or a person, often by doing something harmful such as helping their enemies.

To longsuffer waiting for a real quarterback for the time between Tim Couch, and Baker Mayfield, (With one years' hope in Derek Anderson's abilities) and see the Browns Ownership cut ties with Mayfield after less than 5 years,
and AFTER the winless season to get the #1 overall pick.
and EVEN AFTER the nonsense thinking that Garrett the DE (though a fine player), was a reason to not get, (To AGAIN) not get a Qb,
to be stuck with Jacoby Brissett after all of this,

Yeah, , I'll understand that a lot of quote "fans" don't care, ( by what's posted on this board), they may be fairweather, Not in regards to hopes for wins and losses, but in regards to the player makeup of the roster, or maybe some of those quote fans, just don't understand that the players on the team, and how they fit together, and what motivates them, and the roles they play, and how everything gels together, Matters.
Or, maybe they are all a bunch of closet (other teams fans), or maybe as being fans, they just don't care about NOT watching what we've been forced to watch for about 90% of the last 30 years, and that's the Browns being in last place.
Maybe it's the (Guardians' pc), history wearing off on the locals, because all I remember from the 1980's Indians were they were always in last place, every year, always, they were known for it. But not the Browns. The Browns were winners, and did things right as an organization, they would almost always be in the top two in the division, in the 1980's and they won playoff games.
They didn't constantly try to fix what wasn't broken, when they could recognize what wasn't broken.
Posted By: Clemdawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/05/22 05:28 AM
I'm going to respond to this without reading any posts. That's to ensure that you get the pure funk, uncut.

I actually expect to see an NFL championship in CLE as a very real possibility in the not-too distant future. The team is tooled from top to bottom to win now. I think they might have been able to do it with a healthy, consistent #6, but I'm more confident that they are truly legit contenders with #4 under center.

That said, I just can't get past how this has all looked, sounded and smelled. It's that moldy, unwell smell I've always wanted Berea to get away from.
Based upon the way I feel now, I'm pretty certain that some of this scent will still remain in my nostrils as I breathe Lombardi Air.

I loved what this team was when I was a kid. I saw Jim Brown live when Paul Brown was his coach.
I accept what this team is now, because I have no other choice. They am what they be.

If/when they win, I won't lose my mind.
And I resent that this possibility has been stolen from me.


Being a fan is harder work than it used to be... and it's measurably less rewarding, regardless of team performance or final standings.


.02
carry on, Dawgs.
Posted By: bonefish Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/05/22 02:15 PM
My father taught me the wisdom of patience.

There is no rush to "feel anything" yet.

I wlll feel what I feel when the time comes. No decision has been made. No trial has taken place. Camp has not started.

The season is still 2 months away. Lots of things will come to light.

When toe meets ball for the start of the season. I will be watching and hoping to win that game. As each game is played. That will always be where my head is at.

If we get to playoffs. I will be locked in. If we were to win it all. I will let that wash over me.

Then I will say how I really feel. I am anxious to know what that would feel like.

Posted By: FrankZ Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/05/22 10:27 PM
I understand the patience, I am just feel like I am ready to have it resolved.
Posted By: jaybird Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/06/22 02:43 AM
I'm a browns fan no matter what... I'll cheer for the team we put on the field.... if Watson is there, I'll root for him.. if he's not I'll root for whoever is out there...

I don't really care who is on the team, I cheer for the Browns... I hope they win, but if they lose every game, I'll still watch every chance I get...
Posted By: Clemdawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/06/22 03:12 AM
Bone- I know what you're saying. I hear you. And I'll be totally geeked for your experience.


But I know myself.
And I already see/feel how differently I see this organization. For the first time, ever.

I used to be a rabid fan.
These last few months have cured me of rabies- a freaking medical miracle.

I'll enjoy the story/trip for the most part- primarily, because I've been watching it being played out in real time since I was a kid. But there will always be some percentage of my fandom that I will hold back from them now. Because this most recent one smudges and smears the personal lines I draw regarding those for whom I dedicate my enthusiasm. And I resent them for that.

This trade (and the odor that will always follow it) took something from me, as a fan.
It took from me the last of my boyhood fandom.

__________


It's why I know I won't jump up and down when the clock reaches 0:00. Because I'm old enough to know myself.
I'll be this old, calm man who was lucky enough to see a story reach its denouement in his lifetime. With a broad (but slightly broken) smile on his face.



I still wanted to be that boy when they won.

Damn it. I got so close-

.02,
clem.
Posted By: bonefish Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/06/22 11:53 AM
I can understand your feelings. I was delivering the Plain Dealer when Jim Brown played for Paul Brown.

Becoming cynical as you age is a natural occurance. I guess.

The helmet and the city still means something to me. My hope is DW will become a better man. Hard to really know what was going on in his brain.

I want to believe that he is a young man who stepped outside his normal behavior. Maybe at one point he was propositioned. Got away with it and then pursued more. Who knows?

Is he really a bad guy through and through? It does not seem that way. He had a great reputation in the community and with teammates.

His future is still in front of him. He can correct himself and find a better path if he chooses. I can hope for that.

I don't know Haslam. My guess is that he is not much different than most billionairs. I can not fault him for making the trade. It was his to make. It may prove to be a good decision in the long run. If DW not only wins but sincerely wants to do the right thing. I won't condemn him for life if he properly conducts himself going forward. People make mistakes. It is what they do afterward that becomes important.

I would like to cheer the guy.

I posted this somewhere before. Miles Davis was wife beater and by many accounts could be cruel. I don't really know what he was as a person.

But when I listen to Round about Midnight and Kind of Blue. I go to a happy place. I don't care about him as a man. I just love the music.

I still cheer on Sunday but I will never be the boy I was when I was delivering the papers. It will never mean as much as 1964.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/06/22 12:25 PM
Sounds great.

But...you can never go home as the saying says. I admire you guys who have clung to that idea as long as you have. I am sorry this was the defining moment where you had that taken away.

Kind of like that moment you figured out your parents are/were just goofy people like yourself who were just trying to navigate this thing called life. Everybody has some sort of map, but no matter how complete, it still has a lot of unchartered areas. You eventually make it through those areas, but sometimes there is a toll to pay.
Posted By: WooferDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/07/22 04:40 AM
The only consistency about the Browns is the inconsistency of its ownership.

They are chasing squirrels, while other teams chase titles and championships.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/07/22 01:34 PM
I thought you said that you were not going to root for the Browns after they traded for Watson? Are you just spewing sour grapes or did you have a change of heart...yet again?
Posted By: bonefish Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/07/22 02:42 PM
All the teams in the NFL chase a title. The Browns included.

Haslam can be many things. I don't him personally.

But I don't believe it is accurate that Haslam is not trying to to win a title. He took an enormous risk to trade for DW. He paid a price to do so as well.

He took that risk for only one reason that is to win a Super Bowl.

Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/08/22 12:28 PM
Originally Posted by Clemdawg
Bone- I know what you're saying. I hear you. And I'll be totally geeked for your experience.


But I know myself.
And I already see/feel how differently I see this organization. For the first time, ever.

I used to be a rabid fan.
These last few months have cured me of rabies- a freaking medical miracle.

I'll enjoy the story/trip for the most part- primarily, because I've been watching it being played out in real time since I was a kid. But there will always be some percentage of my fandom that I will hold back from them now. Because this most recent one smudges and smears the personal lines I draw regarding those for whom I dedicate my enthusiasm. And I resent them for that.

This trade (and the odor that will always follow it) took something from me, as a fan.
It took from me the last of my boyhood fandom.

__________


It's why I know I won't jump up and down when the clock reaches 0:00. Because I'm old enough to know myself.
I'll be this old, calm man who was lucky enough to see a story reach its denouement in his lifetime. With a broad (but slightly broken) smile on his face.



I still wanted to be that boy when they won.

Damn it. I got so close-

.02,
clem.

There was always something pure about being a browns fan, that is gone now.
Posted By: bonefish Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/08/22 03:15 PM
I would never attempt to tell someone how to feel.

I can only go by things life has taught me.

People can change in many ways over time. That change can be positive or negative. Deshaun Watson is 26 years old.

A lot of me has changed since being 26.

We can not predict what will take place within DW. Before all of this he was well liked and respected as a person.

Maybe he will end up where we all would like him to be.

Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/08/22 04:06 PM
"Before all of this" is they key phrase in your post. Hoping someone will change in the future is a noble thing to hope for. Using that as an excuse to ignore the present? Not so much.
Posted By: bonefish Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/08/22 04:29 PM
Is that an accusation? Or, a statement.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/08/22 04:35 PM
It's my opinion and perspective of what you posted. It all seemed to center around him changing. How "Maybe he will end up where we all would like him to be." And how you said that "A lot of me has changed since being 26."

So I'm not quite sure what else I was supposed to take from that. Maybe that's not what you meant but it sure as hell sounded like it.
Posted By: FATE Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/08/22 04:51 PM
j/s... I think Bone has been pretty straight forward and fair-minded about all of this. And he doesn't shame others or try to win them to his train of thought, and definitely hasn't "ignored" all of this. I agree with everything he posted. People change every day, he's not saying DW will, he's saying he hopes he will.
Posted By: bonefish Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/08/22 06:39 PM
Maybe I failed to make myself clear.

Life and experience often changes people. Many have turned their lives around from addictions and all manner of behavior.

I have changed in many ways since being 26 years old.

IMO there is no predicting what DW will do going forward. My hope is for all to be better and learn from life.

Posted By: Dawgs4Life Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/11/22 01:51 AM
J/C

Here’s how I feel: I hope Watson’s suspension is minimal and that he tears it up for the Browns. He may not be a good guy (I don’t even know what to believe anymore) but I sure as hell know that all of us deserve a winning team. So that’s what I hope for.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/11/22 12:22 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish


IMO there is no predicting what DW will do going forward. My hope is for all to be better and learn from life.


Hell, we can't even really intelligently say where he's at right now given he's still in legal defense mode.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/11/22 10:25 PM
Originally Posted by Clemdawg
I'm going to respond to this without reading any posts. That's to ensure that you get the pure funk, uncut.

I actually expect to see an NFL championship in CLE as a very real possibility in the not-too distant future. The team is tooled from top to bottom to win now. I think they might have been able to do it with a healthy, consistent #6, but I'm more confident that they are truly legit contenders with #4 under center.
How could I even try and believe the Browns are going all out to win in the next 2 years,

Then tell me where is Rashard Higgins, where is Jarvis Landry?
oh!
oh!
no, they are selling the ...
same old Oatmeal is not bacon-eggs and pancakes, it's a rebuild, just like, well, par for the course. hmm.
Posted By: PerfectSpiral Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/12/22 12:46 AM
All teams are undefeated in 2022 so far. Go Browns!
Posted By: hitt Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/17/22 09:53 PM
Agree with your post 100%. We know he had consensual sex with a few women. He's stated he did nothing wrong- maybe he doesn't think sex is wrong, but normal. Many folks have condemned him so much so that he's some kind of a deviant. Our organization doesn't think so, his teammates don't think so. He is 26, he may or may not have made mistakes- PR wise he surely has- but criminally he's done nothing wrong.....don't get the demonizing of him. Hope he continues his commitment to helping people and represents the Browns well in the future.
Posted By: Dave Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/17/22 10:50 PM
You are ridiculous. Its like Watson is George Costanza saying "Was that wrong of me?" ... "Should I have not done that?" ... "Because in my culture exposing yourself, masturbating, and shooting a load on a professional massage therapist trying to do her job happens all the time.".

WTF is wrong with you?
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/17/22 11:38 PM
I think he said he's in his 70s, that's part of it. When he was coming up, date rape wasn't a phrase but it was common practice. Back then chicks were for kicks, being housewives, and making babies. But generally, they treated women better in public than today. But in private they could do about anything they wanted and get away with it. It would be her fault. Don't ever underestimate the times people grow up in affecting their world views. I was in the hospital years ago, stuck in a semi-private room with an almost 80-year-old watching a buckeyes game. Every other word out of his mouth was an N-bomb about the black players on the team, but he loved the team... In his mind, that was totally acceptable. I have no idea how the black nurse and the latina nurse tolerated his old ass.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/18/22 02:09 AM
Originally Posted by jaybird
I'm a browns fan no matter what... I'll cheer for the team we put on the field.... if Watson is there, I'll root for him.. if he's not I'll root for whoever is out there...

I don't really care who is on the team, I cheer for the Browns... I hope they win, but if they lose every game, I'll still watch every chance I get...
I begin to realize I have felt exactly as you say about teams, in sports I don't care that much about, and where my heart isn't invested very much. Being much too passionate about the Browns I have a difficult time thinking there could be Browns fans who have a more non-chalant approach to it all. I mean if I truly didn't care all that much, ... as is exactly about how I feel about a lot of teams I'm possibly marginally a fan of, or was for a short time, in the past, then I could feel that way about them.
For instance if I were a casual fan of a hockey team, or a baseball team, then I could root for them no matter who they put on the team, I'd cheer for the team no matter who they had, maybe a triple A local baseball team, I'd hope they'd win but if they lost every game I could still watch and cheer,
But see it wouldn't devastate me because I wasn't unhealthily invested in the teams success as I am with the Browns.
When the Browns do something stupid I can't let it go. Because I'm unhealthily invested in the Browns. So when they can't stick with a plan I take it personally.
If it were like some team I didn't care about, or only cared marginally about, then, I could cheer for whatever team they'd put on the field, and not give a hoot when they make stupid decisions, or don't follow through on plans they start, or don't fill needs, or ignore glaring needs, or change course way too often, or don't put a dominant product on the field, or on and on, and on.
But being obsessed to an unhealthy level, I find it hard to think every other fan isn't also just as obsessed so it's hard for me to understand that line of thinking, but I may start to realize it.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/18/22 12:03 PM
Why is it that the Baker fans always forget to include the word "allegedly" when talking about the Watson case? I'm so sick of you guys acting like you were actually there or that he has actually been convicted of those crimes. Hell, he hasn't even been charged. You are not omniscient.
Posted By: Dave Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/18/22 01:43 PM
When the number of alleged victims reaches 30, and the accused's former employers settle financially with those alleged victims for having enabled the accused's bad behavior, I believe the adjective "alleged" crosses the line past "probably" and right into "most likely". In other words, I believe the women. And get this, its nothing to do with Baker.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/18/22 01:58 PM
You stated things like "exposing yourself, masturbating, and shooting a load on a professional massage therapist" as if they were facts. Just like others use labels like rapey, predator, sexual deviant. Once again, Watson has not been convicted of/a crime. He has not even been charged w/a crime. Furthermore, the NFL has found"no evidence that Watson engaged in violence, made threats, applied coercion, or used force."

Assigning labels and guilt to those who have not been convicted of a crime is barbaric and goes against the essence of the laws of our land.
Posted By: FATE Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/18/22 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
You stated things like "exposing yourself, masturbating, and shooting a load on a professional massage therapist" as if they were facts. Just like others use labels like rapey, predator, sexual deviant. Once again, Watson has not been convicted of/a crime. He has not even been charged w/a crime. Furthermore, the NFL has found"no evidence that Watson engaged in violence, made threats, applied coercion, or used force."

Assigning labels and guilt to those who have not been convicted of a crime is barbaric and goes against the essence of the laws of our land.

You keep beating this drum of "nothing proven", even to the point of insisting posters should insert the word "alleged" whenever they speak of Watson's cases...

Just curious Vers, what would make you say that Snyder "committed atrocities"??

Do you have some first-hand proof of all the terrible things he did??
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/18/22 02:11 PM
I posted the articles. Read them for and decide for yourself. We both know you won't.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/18/22 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
You stated things like "exposing yourself, masturbating, and shooting a load on a professional massage therapist" as if they were facts. Just like others use labels like rapey, predator, sexual deviant. Once again, Watson has not been convicted of/a crime. He has not even been charged w/a crime. Furthermore, the NFL has found"no evidence that Watson engaged in violence, made threats, applied coercion, or used force."

Assigning labels and guilt to those who have not been convicted of a crime is barbaric and goes against the essence of the laws of our land.

I agree, but it is what it is. Don't get all worked up over it. You aren't going to change opinions.
Posted By: FATE Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/18/22 02:26 PM
Were all these allegations proven in a court of law?

That seems to be your litmus test for saying a cross word about Watson.


How would "committed atrocities" enter a sentence when talking about alleged conduct?

Did he (allegedly) murder someone?
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/18/22 02:48 PM
You want to argue and pick and choose words. You want to ignore video evidence, bribery, intimidation of witnesses, extortion, gaining access to employees emails and other electronic sources so they can be used for exploitation. You want to ignore that freaking Congress is involved. That's your right, but please, don't waste my time w/your BS. Stick to joining your "team" and their pursuit of trolling the board.
Posted By: FATE Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/18/22 03:03 PM
They're your words.

Just pointing out more of your adolescent double standards.

And you talking about "trolling"? rofl
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/18/22 05:09 PM
His standards only apply to others. In his mind only watson and watson's attorney are the beacon of truth. Numbers don't matter, haven't you heard? They carry no weight with some.
Posted By: Dawg Citizen Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/23/22 09:23 PM
Kind of feel the same way as when we got Kareem Hunt who was accused of physically assaulting women.

Now we have Watson. What he allegedly did was even worse. The Browns knew what Watson was being accused of and sued for. They put themselves right in the middle of this mess by trading for him.

If they didn't think they could win with Baker, then fine. There were other QBs available. Why did it have to be Watson? Why not do what Denver did and get Wilson?

I guess as a Browns fan, I have a range of feelings from guilt to frustration to disgust. Sometimes I feel guilty rooting for and supporting a team with a guy like Watson on it but I 'm still a Browns fan.
Posted By: Clemdawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/25/22 06:40 AM
Quote
I guess as a Browns fan, I have a range of feelings from guilt to frustration to disgust. Sometimes I feel guilty rooting for and supporting a team with a guy like Watson on it but I 'm still a Browns fan.

I've had to deal with this as well. And this isn't the first time, where this team is concerned.

Every time Kellen Winslow's name came up, I got this nasty taste in the back of my mouth. So much talent; such flawed character.
Johnny Manziel tried to push me away from this team.
I was totally devastated when I learned of 32's treatment of women. He was a hero like My Dad... until he wasn't.

I'm on the record: this issue raises a conflict in me unlike any player's who came before. Guilty/not guilty, doesn't matter from my perspective. It's the stain on the logo that bothers me. I can rub and rub, use bleach, borax & brighteners, and scrub that orange helmet with acid and sandpaper, and it won't come out. I'm a different Browns fan than I was before this trade. They took something from me, with the way they did it. And it's not because I'm a DeShaun hater by any means. It's not that I was ever a BakerBoi, either. It's not that the trade wasn't a sound roster decision or dubious upgrade. None of that. It's the stink that surrounds the whole thing. Browns just can't ever make it easy for their fans. Acquire a FA lead-pipe cinch top 5 QB in the offseason? Cleveland??? What's the catch? Oh, yeah... there's that.

I've said before that I expect my ongoing enthusiasm for this team to be forever tempered, even if the Cleveland Browns win it all. I know myself. I know how I react to things like this. I know that I'll probably always place an * on anything CLE does while #4 is under center.

The years are winding down for this little kid who sat in Municipal Stadium and asked His Dad "Where is he?" when Jim Brown's jersey became too muddied to see 32. I always expected myself to have a break from reality if I ever saw a CLE team hoist the Lombardi. I don't see that fantasy projection any more.

I'll be glad for them/us, in that "satisfied old man" way... but this team waited until the last minute to steal the little kid from me. I'll follow them until I'm horizontal, but it simply won't be as sweet as it could have been, had this whole thing been handled better. Browns even managed to 'brown up' the offseason FA QB grab of the decade. Only in the 216, yo.

I still love'em, bless their hearts. I just hate the ever-present 'Keystone Kops' look that seems to slap itself onto everything they try to do.


banghead
Posted By: jfanent Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/25/22 11:54 AM
Quote
I'll be glad for them/us, in that "satisfied old man" way... but this team waited until the last minute to steal the little kid from me. I'll follow them until I'm horizontal, but it simply won't be as sweet as it could have been, had this whole thing been handled better. Browns even managed to 'brown up' the offseason FA QB grab of the decade. Only in the 216, yo.

I still love'em, bless their hearts. I just hate the ever-present 'Keystone Kops' look that seems to slap itself onto everything they try to do.

Even without this trade, I don't think it would have been as sweet as with JB, Sipe and Kosar. Going to the Muni full of blue collar people with our 10-20 dollar tickets, screaming our heads off. Or watching on TV, a late Browns drive with Charlie Jones saying "fasten your seatbelts.....". I loved the games when Bob Trumpy the bungle homer would be shut up with a come from behind Browns victory. The sick feeling we felt for days after a Browns loss. We were never getting those days or feelings back with the modern Browns or NFL. It's a damn shame, because I so wanted to share those feelings with my son, but reality hit hard. We have what we have.
Posted By: bonefish Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/25/22 01:20 PM
I believe that as we age the shine on many things begins to dull.

We live in our time and as that time passes. The way we look at the world and the way we react changes.

I live with my two grandsons. One is sixteen, the other ten. They keep things fresh for me. They see the world through eyes of wonderment.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/25/22 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by Clemdawg
.... this issue raises a conflict in me unlike any player's who came before. Guilty/not guilty, doesn't matter from my perspective. It's the stain on the logo that bothers me.

....

Well put, and thank you for putting your feelings out there (a couple times now). Believe it or not, I feel exactly the same as the part I quoted. The only part I differ is what follows after what I quoted. I'm trying to stay neutral on the whole thing until the truth comes out. It's more hope than anything... I'm hopeful that my Browns fandom can stay intact. I don't see how I can root for a guy who is how his accusers describe. I remember feeling outrage when Hunt arrived in town... and there was a gap between the outrage and when he started restoring some goodwill. This still feels different, though. I don't know if my trying to give him the benefit of the doubt because of my football fandom says more about me than anything else, but approaching this whole story with a patient skepticism is what I've decided and I'm sticking to it.

This whole saga has had me in knots at times because there's a personal thing going on in parallel. How should we treat people that have done stuff like this? At what point is someone no longer redeemable?
Posted By: bonefish Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/25/22 02:58 PM
Perspective is important.

DW will be a Brown for the foreseeable future.

Over time your opinion of him may change based upon what he does going forward. People make mistakes.

Some learn from them and become better. Not all do but there is hope.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/25/22 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by bonefish
I believe that as we age the shine on many things begins to dull.

We live in our time and as that time passes. The way we look at the world and the way we react changes.

I live with my two grandsons. One is sixteen, the other ten. They keep things fresh for me. They see the world through eyes of wonderment.

I think a lot of that is experience tells us that things might not be as good as you hoped for, but almost always never end up as badly as you feared.
Posted By: FATE Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/25/22 07:54 PM
I think you nailed it, Clem... "pulled the little kid right outta me".

I've let this whole thing breathe long enough to settle in to my new "fandom". I'll always bleed brown and orange, I don't think anything will ever change that. But it just feels different now.

I think the biggest piece that was taken away was the "pride of ownership" with this shiny new toy. After taking only three-four seasons to finally scrape away all that "stank", I have a new reason to stare at all these team shirts hanging in my closet and just scroll right by... "not today dawg, not today". It felt so good to finally put those on again and poke my chest out a bit. Honestly, the immediate thought before throwing on a Browns shirt now is embarrassment -- once again -- same as it almost always was.

Above all else, I really thought the embarrassment was in the rear view. Oh well.


I've tried to look at the bright side, as of late, and have come to a definite mindset. I can read down the roster and there's name after name of players you just really want to cheer for.

I'll cheer for Deshaun to succeed as a quarterback; talent-wise he should be among the finest we've ever had. If he's not the missing link to that ever-elusive championship, in the end, it will just be more "stain". The "stains", that's been our nickname on every street in the NFL and every corner of the internet. At the end of the day, it's something we're all used to anyway. It's that ever-sinking "only in Cleveland" feeling that has made this all taste so bad. Almost as if we should just learn to always expect it.

I just really hope QB1 gives me a reason to cheer for "Deshaun the person". It's still possible that we may be hoisting a trophy with this young man well on his way to redemption. It's possible... it happens every day. It just sucks to have the emotional part of "fandom" tied to one player. Tied to whether or not he'll march beyond "scumbag" and show earnest regret for what he's done to affect the lives of others.

I can give a crap about a court of law... truth be told, I really don't think he's committed any crime. Is his conduct "unbecoming"? Yes. Of an NFL player, as a Cleveland Brown, hell -- as a human.

That's my opinion now. He'll have to do something to change that over time.

It's that "time" that cures all wounds. One of the truest cliches in life. So, if I step back, I'm wise enough to admit that I'm "over-reacting" to what's going on in the here and now. I'm acting as if I know the ending to this story with dead-zero in the retrospect department.

It just sucks that, for the immediate future, every feeling of "pride" goes so much further than Sunday's box score. But that crappy part of our future could be in the rear-view before we know it.

Holding out hope.
Posted By: bonefish Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/26/22 02:31 PM
Not sure where to put this or even if I should post it.

But I decided to mention this.

I got a message from eotab saying he will be absent from the Board for awhile. He has to go into the hospital for heart issues.

We all know tab has had a tough go with his health. He has been through a lot. I never met him and don't know him outside of the Board.

But over the years we have always been cordial and enjoyed good football discussions.

He is a passionate Browns fan. It means a lot to him. I am not a praying man but I pray he gets through this and recovers.


Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/26/22 02:45 PM
Yes, I wish eotab nothing but the best in his ongoing battle against his health issues.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/26/22 03:51 PM
Sorry to hear that about tab. He's been through hell. He will be in my prayers.
Posted By: Bard Dawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/26/22 06:15 PM
Thanks for the heads up. Fight the good fight, Eo! My prayers for strength and getting healthy. We want you back amongst us.
Posted By: YTownBrownsFan Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/26/22 06:16 PM
Prayers for good health and speedy healing, eo.
Posted By: lampdogg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/27/22 04:52 AM
Keep battling, tab! Sorry to hear this, but you’ve gone through stuff before and you’ll get through this time.
Posted By: FORTBROWNFAN Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/27/22 07:11 PM
Best of luck and strength to you Eotab as you deal with your illness.
Posted By: Dawgs4Life Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/29/22 02:10 AM
thoughts and strength with you EO
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 07/29/22 09:32 PM
I'm finding it hard to even care about training camp right now, I hope this isn't what I feel like come the regular season. I'm over Baker not being QB, not happy about the DW situation, feel like Ski will be a bust or mediocre at best, and love many of our players but just not excited for this year.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/01/22 11:50 PM
Post verdict on DW; How do you really feel as a fan now?

Me, I feel much better with confirmation that what DW did is clear and he now has guardrails. I think it's crazy that he wasn't charged with a minimum Lewd and lascivious conduct, a misdemeanor in most states. I would really like to see or hear what those grand juries saw and heard. With the current political climate in Texas, it's not surprising he wasn't charged. I wonder what made the GJ give him a pass. That would be good info to have at this point.
Posted By: archbolddawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/01/22 11:55 PM
More than likely, lack of any hard evidence. From my understanding, pretty much everything was a 'he said, she said' kind of thing. Grand juries aren't supposed to operate on info like that. Any prosecutor would tell you the same. If all you have is "she said" with no concrete evidence, it's a no go.

I have no doubt 'wrong' things happened, but they were unprovable in a court of law.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 12:23 AM
I can buy that.
Posted By: dawg66 Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 03:33 PM
That's what I was saying when people were proclaiming Watson was innocent because the Grand Juries wouldn't indict. Unless someone had a video tape of one of the incidents or an audio recording of Watson verbally coercing someone there was no way a Grand Jury was going to indict him.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 04:00 PM
And after hearing all pf the evidence, Robinson believed what she said and she said and she said and she said.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 04:22 PM
The surprise on the relatively short sentence was short-lived once the full report came out. Watson is/was a total scumbag. The judge even called his conduct predatory in the report. The only reason he got off easy was because the NFL is a joke, and Robinson put them on blast. I don't find the fact that this punishment follows precedent all that comforting either.

My hope is that he shows remorse and tries to atone once he's clear of civil cases.
The Browns finally land a elite talent at QB and some fans
Still aren't happy cause he isnt Theo Huxtable or a perfect
Citizen. Moaning and turning on the water works
Cause they feel ashamed that Watson is the QB.
How so many forget the succession of choirboy QBs
That failed in Cleveland...Couch, Frye, Weeden, Quinn...
"Oh no how can I explain to my kids we have a human
Being at QB who can get this franchise to possible
Uncharted waters ask a Super Bowl.....he showed his private
To a female"
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 04:59 PM
Theo? Wow. You really are blind aren't you? There are may great QB's that aren't scum bags and you're excuses over one that is are obviously beyond flawed.
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Theo? Wow. You really are blind aren't you? There are may great QB's that aren't scum bags and you're excuses over one that is are obviously beyond flawed.
They dont give out a trophy at the end of the season
To the team who has the most Brady Bunch like players
Its all about losses and wins
Not angels and sins
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 06:20 PM
They shouldn't be handing them out to sexual predators either. But it seems you think they should and that's fine by you.
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
They shouldn't be handing them out to sexual predators either. But it seems you think they should and that's fine by you.
A predator. Thats a laugh. What Watson did is really
No different than a NFL player hopping from bar to
Bar and trying to pick up women.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 07:45 PM
Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
They shouldn't be handing them out to sexual predators either. But it seems you think they should and that's fine by you.
A predator. Thats a laugh. What Watson did is really
No different than a NFL player hopping from bar to
Bar and trying to pick up women.

Such a beacon of virtue! We should all listen to the guy who loves his stripper about what's acceptable sexual behavior. You can't make this crap up! lmao. Watson put a whole bunch of innocent women in horrible positions by taking advantage of his stardom as an NFL QB. Now I don't know if you are a member of the he-man woman haters club or not, but damn spanky, women are people too. And I bet if some random dude rubbed his exposed erection on you without consent, you wouldn't point out how it's like bar hopping then. Or maybe you would, I don't know you well enough to say.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 07:55 PM
Quote
We should all listen to the guy who loves his stripper about what's acceptable sexual behavior.

You are resorting to belittling another man's wife?

Disgusting.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 08:15 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Quote
We should all listen to the guy who loves his stripper about what's acceptable sexual behavior.

You are resorting to belittling another man's wife?

Disgusting.

Am I? No. I'm using his handle in a rebuttal of his views. I don't know that he is married at all, AND I doubt you do either. I'm not even sure if this poster is male or female for that matter. Nope, this is just a pathetic attempt to take me down by you. You've been very fixated on that recently. It's plain for all to see just how pathetic you've become.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 08:32 PM
No, he was asked if she was a stripper and he confirmed that. While you may not think strippers are deserving of our respect, I strongly disagree.
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
They shouldn't be handing them out to sexual predators either. But it seems you think they should and that's fine by you.
A predator. Thats a laugh. What Watson did is really
No different than a NFL player hopping from bar to
Bar and trying to pick up women.

Such a beacon of virtue! We should all listen to the guy who loves his stripper about what's acceptable sexual behavior. You can't make this crap up! lmao. Watson put a whole bunch of innocent women in horrible positions by taking advantage of his stardom as an NFL QB. Now I don't know if you are a member of the he-man woman haters club or not, but damn spanky, women are people too. And I bet if some random dude rubbed his exposed erection on you without consent, you wouldn't point out how it's like bar hopping then. Or maybe you would, I don't know you well enough to say.
Ok 1st of all sir, you without realizing it referenced the 3 Stooges and Our Gang.
Spanky ....he man woman haters club. Spanky is better than Waldo.
Women are most definitely people.
I can promise you, these women you claim who were traumatized by Watson
Because of their profession , its not the 1st time a male client exposed
Their private to them. It happens alot in that industry.
When a massage therapist embarks on that career, they are exposed to almost
Practically nude bodies and alas physical interaction.
If a massage therapist is traumatized by the exposure of male gential
And she cant simply take control of the situation, she is in the wrong business.
If DeShawn Watson really did traumatize these therapists starting
With the 1st one and so on, how come the 1st , 2nd , 3rd , 4th "victims"
Go to.the authorities right then and there?
Because in this day of social media. Word would have traveled fast DeShawn Watson
Was a "predator" regarding massage therapists.
Now replying about about a dude rubbing his private on me , it did happen
To me as a 10 year old. He was dealt with accordingly but sorry bar hopping was
Not in my vocabulary at that time. But I took control of the situation
And survived it. I didnt use it as a cash grab like these women did.
I used it as experience to grow stronger and brave
Last point...if you look at my name , you have clearly failed to see
Its XSTRIPPER. as in past tense. She was done stripping 9 months
Into our relationship.
Nothing wrong in being a stripper anyways. Its only wrong when a family man
Spends his paycheck their instead of buying food, he buys her for a hour dance.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 08:33 PM
Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
They shouldn't be handing them out to sexual predators either. But it seems you think they should and that's fine by you.
A predator. Thats a laugh. What Watson did is really
No different than a NFL player hopping from bar to
Bar and trying to pick up women.

that's not what the findings are in the report by Sue Robinson in the watson hearing. But you keep convincing yourself of that. At this point that's all you have left.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 08:35 PM
But for nine months you helped her spend those paychecks. My, my.....
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 08:50 PM
Hey.........don't let those guys get to you. Your personal business is your own and your woman doesn't deserve to be shamed. They personally attack anyone who doesn't agree w/them. It's how they roll every single day on this board.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 09:07 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Hey.........don't let those guys get to you. Your personal business is your own and your woman doesn't deserve to be shamed. They personally attack anyone who doesn't agree w/them. It's how they roll every single day on this board.

I see you found a mirror at your house. You and several others have been attacking watson's female accusers for months now. Thanks for manning up.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
No, he was asked if she was a stripper and he confirmed that. While you may not think strippers are deserving of our respect, I strongly disagree.

First never seen any conversation about his wife or him. I don't have a clue about that, except for what you just posted. Second, I never said or even alluded to the white highlighted section of your accusation. I MOCKED HIS HANDLE IN THE CONTEXT OF HIS ARGUMENT. Grow up Vers, you want so badly to get me banned that you will say anything and makeup anything. Stop being so shady and pathetic. Maybe we should talk about why you take the whole DW situation so personally. You are completely off the rails about anything negative in the DW threads, attacking everyone who counters you, why?
I
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Hey.........don't let those guys get to you. Your personal business is your own and your woman doesn't deserve to be shamed. They personally attack anyone who doesn't agree w/them. It's how they roll every single day on this board.
Thank you kindly for the sincere encouragement. I find it ironic that well strippers and massage
Therapists are both frowned upon in society.
In regards to attacks on this board, I find most to be unjustified. The whole DeShawn Watson
Debacle has very possibly exposed sides to posters that were hidden in the past.
Debating has its positives. But the DeShawn Watson situation has added to fuel
To a Browns fire that has started since 1999.
2 winning seasons since the return.
I ask you.this Vers...what if Watson went to Pittsburgh , Or Miami?
Or lets say Denver.....would those fanbases be in a divided uproar like this one.?
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/02/22 10:11 PM
I don't know the answer to that question. I don't think he would have been crucified in Miami. Pittsburgh already had Big Ben. Denver, I have no idea about. I do think that of the four teams that were in the final four, the fans in New Orleans and Atlanta really seemed to want him there. Carolina might be another story.

Hell, I read a lot of articles and watch the videos, and most of the Browns fans have come along and are supporting Watson. We see the film clips of fans mobbing him at practice. There are just a handful of posters on this board that make a lot of noise and I don't feel they are representative of our fan base. Just my opinion.

Anyway, hang in there and I think that all women deserve to be respected. That includes strippers and massage therapists. I actually admire you for not stereotyping your love and seeing the beauty that resides w/in her. Stay strong, my man.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/03/22 01:08 AM
rolleyes *sniffle, sniffle, tear. YOU made up the attack on his woman. YOU DID THAT.
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I don't know the answer to that question. I don't think he would have been crucified in Miami. Pittsburgh already had Big Ben. Denver, I have no idea about. I do think that of the four teams that were in the final four, the fans in New Orleans and Atlanta really seemed to want him there. Carolina might be another story.

Hell, I read a lot of articles and watch the videos, and most of the Browns fans have come along and are supporting Watson. We see the film clips of fans mobbing him at practice. There are just a handful of posters on this board that make a lot of noise and I don't feel they are representative of our fan base. Just my opinion.

Anyway, hang in there and I think that all women deserve to be respected. That includes strippers and massage therapists. I actually admire you for not stereotyping your love and seeing the beauty that resides w/in her. Stay strong, my man.
I think this DeShawn Watson situation and division is fueled
By a fanbase that witnessed and experienced a franchise that
Has lost more than its won. Its gone through more QBs
In the last 10 years than the Steelers have in 50

Baker Mayfield plays indirectly to this latest controversy.
So many fans were convinced that Baker was the QB
To lead this franchise to a SB.
Expectations were through the roof going into 2021.
No way could Baker regress. It was unfathomable.
Baker was one of US , I constantly heard.
Baker could no wrong in this city.
Then boom, reality hit hard. The league caught up to Mayfield
DC's confused Baker with coverages. Exposing the fact , Baker
Cant process or read coverages very well. Especially when
His pocket isnt clean.
Front office decides Mayfield isnt the answer.
Now the fanbase is anticipating yet another revolving door
At QB. But some fans are still drinking the Mayfield Kool Aid
Its divided.
Then poof, DeShawn Watson has been.traded for.
A unique special talent. A QB that can elevate this franchise
But is on trial by a fanbase that said nothing about Reggie Rucker
Stealing from a program to help troubled youths.
A fanbase that forgave Kevin Mack for bad choices.
But DeShawn Watson OMG , is the devil. He has a sickness

This franchise has emotionally tortured its fanbase.
If Watson went to Denver, because its fanbase is used
To success over the years, and not beat down by losing
Would not be pulling the Salem Witch Trials on.Watson
Like some Browns fans have
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/03/22 02:53 AM
Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
The Browns finally land a elite talent at QB and some fans
Still aren't happy cause ..."
Whose job is it to make sure fans are happy, or if they aren't who has a right to blame them.
Plus, the rest of that post was all an assumption of why fans are unhappy.

First of all, there is no guarantee Watson will end up playing any better than Baker would have. 2nd, there is no guarantee Watson is the "finally an elite talent" at QB.
I mean they finally had Baker Mayfield, finally after all the years of Qb's and did it work out? Did he get a 2nd contract? The "Browns are going to Browns" and the Owners' got unhappy and all of a sudden it's Bakers' fault the organization can't support him?
( Or they supported him and stuck with him through and through--- and my imaginations of observations--- aren't reality.)

So now? Now we are supposed to believe, Deshaun Watson is going to be different????? ?????? ????? ?????

Well I think! I think this team is going to cut bait on Watson just as fast as they cut bait on every other Qb at the first signs of imperfection, and ...

..... I came here to answer, How do I feel as a Fan after the suspension is announced.

Sure, 1. I feel the season is a wash, another season that has little to no chance for them to make the playoffs,
2. I still feel betrayed that they gave up on Baker and think they won't stick it out with Watson.

Tumbling around like in that cylinder of water at the base of Niagara Falls. \0/ Woo Hoo!
Posted By: dawg66 Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/03/22 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Hey.........don't let those guys get to you. Your personal business is your own and your woman doesn't deserve to be shamed. They personally attack anyone who doesn't agree w/them. It's how they roll every single day on this board.



OMG! Pot meet Kettle! I used to enjoy reading reading your take on football then one day a few years ago I posted my thoughts on a Browns subject which wasn't even directed at you but you responded to my comments by attacking me and basically calling me dumb. YOU constantly start crap when you don't agree with people then whine about it when they do it to you. Freaking grow up!
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/03/22 03:53 PM
Okay.
Posted By: DawgMichelle Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/03/22 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
client exposed
It happens alot in that industry.
When a massage therapist embarks on that career, they are exposed to almost
Practically nude bodies and alas physical interaction.
If a massage therapist is traumatized by the exposure of male gential
And she cant simply take control of the situation, she is in the wrong business.

So how long have you been a Licensed Massage Therapist?
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/03/22 07:12 PM
Originally Posted by DawgMichelle
Originally Posted by Iluvmyxstripper
client exposed
It happens alot in that industry.
When a massage therapist embarks on that career, they are exposed to almost
Practically nude bodies and alas physical interaction.
If a massage therapist is traumatized by the exposure of male gential
And she cant simply take control of the situation, she is in the wrong business.

So how long have you been a Licensed Massage Therapist?

Sounds like a loaded question to me. wink
Posted By: hitt Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/04/22 02:30 PM
DawgMichelle is perfectly correct. Yet, she misses the point. JMHO, NFL has decided they are in the control sex business. Watson likes sex at massage parlors- a number of women offered consensual sex- he isn't ashamed of this/ his morals, he routinely wore a small towel to massage sessions- in massage parlor culture- this indicates the client wants more than just a massage- check out youtube massage parlor culture if you don't believe me.....ALL the massage parlor workers CHOSE to continue the sessions- why? Easy, MONEY- they CHOSE to offer their services, got more than they wanted, KNOWING that would probably happen- then get a lawyer and yada, yada, yada.....the NFL has opened a can of worms- now the owners get exposed....unless they get to Roger and say....fix this....time will tell. It is all about who has money, who wants money....lawyers laughing to the bank.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/04/22 03:01 PM
What planet are you living on?
Posted By: DawgMichelle Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/04/22 07:29 PM
Wait, you think you made a point?! Do you even understand what you are trying to say?
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/04/22 08:09 PM
Sadly I think he does. Just like so many others have done.
Posted By: DawgMichelle Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/04/22 08:59 PM
Lots of people sure seem to think they know all about Massage Therapy, Massage Therapists, and women. It's VERY comical to read all about it. I'm learning lots of new things about myself.
Posted By: FATE Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/04/22 09:11 PM
Amazing, right?

This takes MMQB to a whole new level.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/05/22 12:02 AM
Today I feel worse about being a fan than yesterday.
How is that possible? Yesterday I felt betrayed, by the teams bad judgement/decisions, today I feel betrayed by the Nation dumping on the city and state of Ohio, again, but it's becoming undeniably evident.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/05/22 05:00 AM
Originally Posted by hitt
DawgMichelle is perfectly correct. Yet, she misses the point. JMHO, NFL has decided they are in the control sex business. Watson likes sex at massage parlors- a number of women offered consensual sex- he isn't ashamed of this/ his morals, he routinely wore a small towel to massage sessions- in massage parlor culture- this indicates the client wants more than just a massage- check out youtube massage parlor culture if you don't believe me.....ALL the massage parlor workers CHOSE to continue the sessions- why? Easy, MONEY- they CHOSE to offer their services, got more than they wanted, KNOWING that would probably happen- then get a lawyer and yada, yada, yada.....the NFL has opened a can of worms- now the owners get exposed....unless they get to Roger and say....fix this....time will tell. It is all about who has money, who wants money....lawyers laughing to the bank.

I LIKED THIS POST BECAUSE I KNOW GOOD DRUGS IN USE WHEN I SEE THEM! wink PARTY ON HITT, PARTY ON.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/05/22 01:36 PM
Originally Posted by OldColdDawg
Originally Posted by hitt
DawgMichelle is perfectly correct. Yet, she misses the point. JMHO, NFL has decided they are in the control sex business. Watson likes sex at massage parlors- a number of women offered consensual sex- he isn't ashamed of this/ his morals, he routinely wore a small towel to massage sessions- in massage parlor culture- this indicates the client wants more than just a massage- check out youtube massage parlor culture if you don't believe me.....ALL the massage parlor workers CHOSE to continue the sessions- why? Easy, MONEY- they CHOSE to offer their services, got more than they wanted, KNOWING that would probably happen- then get a lawyer and yada, yada, yada.....the NFL has opened a can of worms- now the owners get exposed....unless they get to Roger and say....fix this....time will tell. It is all about who has money, who wants money....lawyers laughing to the bank.

I LIKED THIS POST BECAUSE I KNOW GOOD DRUGS IN USE WHEN I SEE THEM! wink PARTY ON HITT, PARTY ON.

same. :-p
Posted By: Dawgs4Life Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/05/22 02:05 PM
Lol 😂
Posted By: jfanent Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/05/22 08:45 PM
How do I feel as a fan?

I'm ready for some Brown's football! I'm anxious to see how we get thru these first 4 games. I'm also waiting to see how the DW circus unflolds and watch Goodell complete the process of making a total fool of himself.
Posted By: illegalmoe Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/05/22 11:15 PM
Me too, I guess just get on with it. I'm disgusted and disappointed. The whole thing is so slimy. First Watsons behavior was despicable no doubt.

That said I'm angry with the league. It feels like the Browns are always in the cross hairs. Why do the Texans get a free pass and come out smelling like a rose but our guy can't be punished enough? How much is enough? What was the point of the federal judge review? Everyday its like Lucy pulling back the football on Browns fans.
The Steelers got nowhere near the outrage when their QB faced similar/worse accusations. The pure souls at the NFL looked the other way when Robert Kraft disgraced himself but Josh Gordon gets suspended for a year after having a drink on the plane in the off season.
Today I see an article where a Watson accuser implores the NFL to do the right thing and she crows about not being sorry for speaking up. If she's such a hero why didn't tell Watson that's not what I do and leave? I feel slimy saying so but it make me think she was looking for a payday.

I'm angry at our luck. When we get the no.1 pick we get a huge decision and wind up with Mediocre Mayfield. The Bengals get the easy choice in Joe Burrow. I'm angry at our ownership for 20+ years of terrible decisions. At the same time I have to give ownership a thumbs up for going all in and taking this enormous risk which BTW also makes me mad.

Without a decent QB this is another throw away season. Make it stop already.
Better luck next year to the best fans in the NFL. Browns fans you don't deserve this.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/05/22 11:56 PM
In 2009 Donte Stalworth was suspended for the year, what team was he on? The Browns.

The bottom line is the NFL won't permit the Browns to have anything except a bottom 35th or worse ranked quarterback in the league, forever.
They had their franchise quarterback, and now he plays in Carolina, and what are we stuck with.
It's disgraceful.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/06/22 09:56 AM
Speaking of drug use...
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/06/22 10:07 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Speaking of drug use...

I think many times it is about not being on the meds.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/06/22 11:54 AM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Speaking of drug use...TL never uses drugs.
The point is, that if you factor in time missed for suspensions, or wishing they @uit the game, or fluke injuries, that the Browns' since I999 have been some place for the NFL to stash players into perpetual losing seasons of bleakness.
and doesn't all this just benefit western pa. thumbsdown.
Posted By: Dawgs4Life Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/06/22 02:46 PM
Lol I forgot all about Donte Stallworth
Posted By: hitt Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/06/22 03:43 PM
Remember Bentley, All Pro Center and he's out due to staff infection....our luck. I'm hopeful JB works out- he doesn't throw picks and our running game and defense will keep us in ALL games. As long as we stay relatively healthy.
Posted By: Dawgs4Life Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/06/22 03:51 PM
i remember being so pumped about signing Bentley … and then the news from the very first drill of camp (he was probably injured before that based on rumors) … that was such a bummer
Posted By: JulesDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/15/22 01:04 AM
I haven’t wanted to post about this situation on the board since this started. This is not a good place for a woman to discuss these types of situations. Many of the posts I have read by men on this board have been disturbing, to say the least.

I’ve been posting here for a couple of decades, so I do feel the need to chime in a bit. I doubt I respond much after posting this, as I said, some of the men on this board are coming from a place I just can’t imagine.

I think the biggest issue is how elite high school, or even younger, athletes are treated. They are given everything and bad behavior is excused by everyone. Even if they are violent or being inappropriate in sexual encounters. They don’t understand boundaries. They think this behavior is normal.

Honestly, I think that’s what Watson thought. It’s pathetic, and yes, predatory, but I doubt he even had a thought process to understand it. Again, sad that someone is that emotionally deprived, but it just seems that way with him.

I’m not excusing anything he did. What I am hoping is that he learns from this. I’m going to have a hard time rooting for him, but hoping he can redeem himself.
Posted By: Dawgs4Life Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/15/22 02:05 AM
Thanks for posting Jules and that is probably the case with Watson (and many other athletes). It’s gotta be tough for female fans of the Browns to sort through their feelings, whether they think DeShaun is A LOT guilty or A LITTLE guilty, etc.

I can’t empathize because I’m not a female, but I don’t know anything other than I want it to be over now
Posted By: oobernoober Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/15/22 02:50 PM
Honest question....

Would it be accurate to say you're more interested in how he acts going forward?
Posted By: JulesDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/17/22 11:01 PM
Well, that’s all we really have, right? Nothing can be changed about the past. I doubt I ever get it out of my mind, but I certainly hope he can actually learn from what has happened and can actually develop empathy for women, who he apparently does not understand, or respect.

I’ll say this, if he falls back into old habits eventually, that changes my mind completely.
Posted By: hitt Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 02:13 AM
Jules, do you give the ladies a pass? They saw the small towel, yet wanted the money, so they continued. As we judge DW, let's not forget we are all human and there are lots of evils in the world. Lots of addictions- sex addiction, porn addiction, drug addiction, alcohol addition. JMHO, in his mind he offered the masseuses a clear choice - right or wrong - and he didn't criminally force anything. I think he needs help, glad he's getting counseling. But I also see his side thinking he did nothing wrong growing up like he did. Peace.
Posted By: Dawgs4Life Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 09:34 AM
J/c

I’ve seen this thing about a “small towel” a few other places … is that a customary sign in the massage world that the customer is looking for a little more? I’m very naive here
Posted By: oobernoober Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 02:48 PM
You bring up alcoholics, but I'm guessing you've never used the line "well, the person hit by the drunk driver was out driving super late on a Friday... clearly they knew they were taking a risk"?

Give it up, man. The evidence is in, DW more than likely engaged in sex assault (as it was defined after the fact) per Robinson's report. I'll say it again, by reading Robinson's report, we know that DW crossed a line that shouldn't be crossed at least 4 times. That's on him, not the women on the receiving end.... at the VERY least he should be aware of his celebrity status and be more careful.

I'm not saying we shouldn't get annoyed at the NFL, but (the way I see it) there are 2 distinctly separate conversations at this point. What DW did and how we feel about it (which is what this thread is mostly about), and what we think about the discipline process.

I'm ashamed that my football team has a person of such questionable character at such an important position, and gave said said person the unprecedented contract that they did. I also understand that these guys don't get to this level of football solely by being choir boys, but reconciling the difference here is a struggle. I root for the team before any single player, but I also do pull a little extra for players I like... and from that perspective I did pull extra hard for Hunt when he came here and started his redemption tour. I think the big difference between Hunt and Watson, at this point, is that Hunt immediately knew he did something wrong and got started down that path. With Watson... well let's say it's going to be harder to take that first step
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 03:32 PM
Originally Posted by hitt
Jules, do you give the ladies a pass? They saw the small towel, yet wanted the money, so they continued. As we judge DW, let's not forget we are all human and there are lots of evils in the world. Lots of addictions- sex addiction, porn addiction, drug addiction, alcohol addition. JMHO, in his mind he offered the masseuses a clear choice - right or wrong - and he didn't criminally force anything. I think he needs help, glad he's getting counseling. But I also see his side thinking he did nothing wrong growing up like he did. Peace.

I am not getting on you, but a man should probably never question a woman when it comes to topics like sexual misconduct against women.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 03:38 PM
I am not going to argue w/your feelings on the subject. We all have the right to feel the way we do about the situation and I respect your opinion that you feel ashamed even if I don't feel the same way. However, I do want to address this sentence because I think people are missing an important distinction.



Quote
I think the big difference between Hunt and Watson, at this point, is that Hunt immediately knew he did something wrong and got started down that path.

There was video evidence in Hunt's case. There is no tangible evidence in Watson's. However, that is not my main point. Watson can not admit any guilt or remorse for what he did to the women because it could lead to future cases in which he publicly admitted guilt. Even worse, there is no Double Jeopardy for cases that were never tried, thus the case could be brought to the GJ again if Watson doesn't maintain his innocence and admits to any sort of guilt.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 03:51 PM
I agree with you (on your last point) with the caveat that there is a big difference between not admitting guilt while still under the specter of legal action and doubling down on your innocence during a PC about your suspension for said allegations. He would've gotten dragged a bit for just saying that he's sticking with the canned statement from him and the team, but that would've been so much better than restarting the "I'm innocent and the truth will come out" shpiel. It was dumb.

But going further, my statement that you quoted and responded to was more pointed at the difference between Hunt's action (a single occurrence that happened when him (and the female?) were drunk/agitated) and the allegations against Watson (pointing to an established pattern of behavior). Watson has (allegedly) been doing this for a period and time and (also allegedly) has been enabled by his employers. He should've known it was wrong, but obviously didn't, and he received no help until now in identifying his bad behavior. I think that could be exacerbating his apparent reluctance in taking actual accountability.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 03:54 PM
I don't want to get into the innocence/guilt again. I use the legal system as my guide. Others rely on public opinion. Whatever.

I was just making a point about Watson being unable to admit that he was sorry for doing something illegal. I have made it clear that I think he needs to stick w/a canned statement and refuse to answer questions that are not about football.
Posted By: oobernoober Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I was just making a point about Watson being unable to admit that he was sorry for doing something illegal. I have made it clear that I think he needs to stick w/a canned statement and refuse to answer questions that are not about football.

On that I think everyone can agree. Dude just needs to shut his mouth and go away for a minute. Probably should take Jimmy with him. Jimmy was trying to sound worse just to make Watson sound better, it seems. Dude is a polished CEO, apparently... good grief.
Posted By: PitDAWG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
I don't want to get into the innocence/guilt again. I use the legal system as my guide. Others rely on public opinion.

You said you would accept Robinson's ruling until it didn't come out the way you expected it to. Now you're changing your story because you didn't like the outcome.
Posted By: PortlandDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 05:18 PM
An update to my answer now that the suspension has been levied…

Bring on the season.
Go Browns.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 06:33 PM
I'd say it's more of an excuse for those defending Watson's behavior. I mean, they have to live with it somehow. And that's not an attack on people who want him here, it's an attack for trying to justify defending him when he is so obviously guilty of predatorial sexual misconduct. I have no issues with anyone who wanted him here purely for his talent, trying to somehow justify his actions is another issue entirely and there are only a few doing that here.
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 09:26 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by hitt
Jules, do you give the ladies a pass? They saw the small towel, yet wanted the money, so they continued. As we judge DW, let's not forget we are all human and there are lots of evils in the world. Lots of addictions- sex addiction, porn addiction, drug addiction, alcohol addition. JMHO, in his mind he offered the masseuses a clear choice - right or wrong - and he didn't criminally force anything. I think he needs help, glad he's getting counseling. But I also see his side thinking he did nothing wrong growing up like he did. Peace.

I am not getting on you, but a man should probably never question a woman when it comes to topics like sexual misconduct against women.

This whole debate has been centered around that. With Watson, the teams, and on the boards, so I disagree. I am not saying what Watson did was good/bad or something else. I am just staying focused on your point.

That said, I have known Jules for many years. I take her feelings on the matter seriously and she stated with heart felt sincerity.

I will also say I don't agree with the way hitt tried to make his point as it was overboard and lacked tact.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 09:38 PM
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by hitt
Jules, do you give the ladies a pass? They saw the small towel, yet wanted the money, so they continued. As we judge DW, let's not forget we are all human and there are lots of evils in the world. Lots of addictions- sex addiction, porn addiction, drug addiction, alcohol addition. JMHO, in his mind he offered the masseuses a clear choice - right or wrong - and he didn't criminally force anything. I think he needs help, glad he's getting counseling. But I also see his side thinking he did nothing wrong growing up like he did. Peace.

I am not getting on you, but a man should probably never question a woman when it comes to topics like sexual misconduct against women.

This whole debate has been centered around that. With Watson, the teams, and on the boards, so I disagree. I am not saying what Watson did was good/bad or something else. I am just staying focused on your point.

That said, I have known Jules for many years. I take her feelings on the matter seriously and she stated with heart felt sincerity.

I will also say I don't agree with the way hitt tried to make his point as it was overboard and lacked tact.

I don't understand what part of what I said you are disagreeing with???
Posted By: Ballpeen Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 10:07 PM
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by Versatile Dog
Originally Posted by hitt
Jules, do you give the ladies a pass? They saw the small towel, yet wanted the money, so they continued. As we judge DW, let's not forget we are all human and there are lots of evils in the world. Lots of addictions- sex addiction, porn addiction, drug addiction, alcohol addition. JMHO, in his mind he offered the masseuses a clear choice - right or wrong - and he didn't criminally force anything. I think he needs help, glad he's getting counseling. But I also see his side thinking he did nothing wrong growing up like he did. Peace.

I am not getting on you, but a man should probably never question a woman when it comes to topics like sexual misconduct against women.

This whole debate has been centered around that. With Watson, the teams, and on the boards, so I disagree. I am not saying what Watson did was good/bad or something else. I am just staying focused on your point.

That said, I have known Jules for many years. I take her feelings on the matter seriously and she stated with heart felt sincerity.

I will also say I don't agree with the way hitt tried to make his point as it was overboard and lacked tact.

I don't understand what part of what I said you are disagreeing with???

but a man should probably never question a woman when it comes to topics like sexual misconduct against women.
Posted By: Versatile Dog Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 10:21 PM
I just don't feel we are capable of seeing sexual misconduct through a women's eyes. I might be wrong, but I am not going to speak for how a woman feels about such things.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/19/22 11:37 PM
When you try to see it their way or empathize with their feelings or experience, you get called out for being a man trying to mansplain their feelings or experience and asked how you could possibly know that. Happened on here to me just a week or so ago.
Posted By: THROW LONG Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/23/22 11:09 PM
Today I feel mocked, they are mocking me. They are mocking Browns' fans that have a brain.
(does stabbed in the back count?)

So you're telling me, you are trying to tell me, We get to watch Baker and Higgins, but they'll be on the team the Browns open up against??

What?? Exactly What have the Browns given me to root for???

I'm more of a fan of Baker and Higgins than I am of the Browns ownership or analytics gurus and that's a certainty.

I'm not mad at the Browns because Deshaun Watson did whatever happened to things that happen all the time.
I'm not mad at Deshaun Watson.
I'm not mad at people who want to suspend Deshaun Watson for doing whatever thing happened.

I'm not Mad at Watson, nor the people who want to suspend him.

But I am Mad, about as mad as I've ever been at the Browns org. and the NFL.
I'm Mad as (ya know), that they not only Waived Baker, and Higgins, and their other top WR's from 2020,

But they are going to make the Browns open up AGAINST Baker and Higgins,
AND
they gave up 230 million dollars and 3 first round draft picks , Plus More

For Jacoby Brissett, or Whomever the (**) ELSE, who are all, in the bottom 45 @urterbacks in the League, and will always be

and then, AS LIARS would do, Demand you believe what is contractided, Directly in front of your eyes,
they want to PRETEND
that there is some

Shiny Object of hope of better play on the field in some future case.
WHICH WON'T HAPPEN.

That's right I said it. I'm saying Deshaun Watson will not be as good in a Browns uniform as Baker Mayfield would be,
and because of that,
I feel like the Browns and the NFL are mocking me, mocking Browns fans
AS IF we weren't intelligient enough to figure it out. AS IF we were a bunch of mindless..sightless, thoughtless ones that just take whatever we're told.
They are mocking me, AFTER they kicked me in the lower soloplexes as an old wrestling announcer would say.

That's how I feel today, tomorrow, Ehh, might be back to feeling like whatever I posted last time.
Posted By: OldColdDawg Re: How do YOU really feel, as a fan? - 08/23/22 11:44 PM
Well Throw, at least you turned a BS thread into a form of therapy for yourself. And I've realized that you post 100% of your REAL feelings 90% of the time. thumbsup
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