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The Hill

Biden's wildly unconstitutional vaccine mandate
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In what may go down as one of the most significant attempts to expand the power of the presidency in modern history, President Biden announced on Sept. 9 a series of sweeping new vaccine mandates, which, together, could affect as many 100 million people.

Under the new rules, employees working at health care facilities receiving Medicaid and Medicare funding – the vast majority of health facilities in the United States – will be required to get vaccinated or submit a weekly test showing they have not contracted the COVID-19 virus.

Some federal employees, as well as employees working for federal contractors, will also be subject to the rule. But Biden’s rule also applies to people working at private businesses of 100 or more employees, including companies that do not receive federal funding.

Businesses that fail to impose the new rules on their workers will be fined $14,000 per violation by the federal Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA).

The decision to impose vaccines nationwide is one of the most stunning moves made by any president, a view bolstered by Biden’s speech announcing the plan, which included several explicit or implicit threats and warnings.

For example, at one point during the speech, Biden, speaking directly to the tens of millions of Americans who have chosen not to get vaccinated, said, “We’ve been patient. But our patience is wearing thin, and your refusal has cost all of us.”

Let’s put aside questions about whether people ought to choose to get vaccinated, or even whether businesses should have the authority to demand that their employees get vaccinated. Those are important questions, but not nearly as essential as whether the president has the power to demand that employees of private companies be subjected to a vaccine mandate. (Mandates imposed on employees of the federal government is a different story entirely.)

On that question, Biden has violated both the spirit and explicit language of the Constitution. If the president is permitted to run roughshod over our constitutional liberties in such a reckless manner, future presidents could further erode our freedoms and undermine the protections guaranteed to every citizen by the Constitution.

When confronted with questions about the constitutionality of the mandate, defenders of the president have insisted Biden has the authority to issue a national vaccine mandate under the vaguely written Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970, which was created to improve safety conditions in the workplace.

But a federal statute cannot be interpreted to warrant an unconstitutional law, since the Constitution is the supreme law of the federal government. So, unless a legal scholar can cite a provision in the Constitution that gives the president the authority to mandate vaccines or even to simply regulate public health generally, the Occupational Safety and Health Act of 1970 cannot be used to justify the mandate. And no such constitutional provision exists.

Others have pointed to a Supreme Court case from 1905, Jacobson v. Massachusetts, as proof that the president has the authority to issue a vaccine requirement.

It is true that the Supreme Court in Jacobson ruled that vaccine mandates can be imposed by a local government, so long as that government is not acting in violation of state law. And it’s also true the Massachusetts law cited in the case was even more intrusive than the policies now being pushed by the Biden administration. But this argument also fails spectacularly for one very important reason.

In Jacobson, the Supreme Court determined that a local vaccine mandate is permissible under the Constitution because states have maintained their police powers and authority to regulate public health under the 10th Amendment, which guarantees, “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.”

But the decision in Jacobson does not include language indicating that the national government has the same authority. The case has nothing to do with federal vaccine mandates like the one imposed by Biden.

White House chief of staff 'confident' vaccine mandate will be upheld
Surgeon general: Administration 'prepared to defend' vaccine mandate
Nothing in the Constitution suggest that the executive branch can impose blanket vaccine regulations on private businesses or their employees.

The only question that remains is whether the Supreme Court will strike down Biden’s mandate. If the court refuses to get involved, the public will suffer for generations, as one presidential administration after another erodes its hard-won liberties.

Justin Haskins is director of the Stopping Socialism Project at The Heartland Institute, where he also serves as a research fellow and editorial director.
I agree.

I think the goal is to further collapse the economy.
SCOTUS decided
Give it up tasty and Peen
Let’s move forward now
Originally Posted by RocketOptimist
SCOTUS decided
Give it up tasty and Peen
Let’s move forward now

The powers under the 10th are granted to the states, not the federal government.

And this is altogether different. The feds are trying to do a end around by using OSHA. We'll see if that flies or not.

It's strange that in the USA we are trying to prevent people from working, either through mandates or out and out bribery. We are paying people to stay home and not get a job.
That's one perspective. I guess. Although: we are not paying people money to stay at home, the covid emergency funding is ALL over to my knowledge. And no-one is prevented from working - they simply need to test regularly. So two arguments you put forward don't seem based on the reality of the situation.

Also - another perspective that might be applied - the Fed Govt. are trying to do everything in their power to protect Americans, and that maybe means (in this instance) protect them in spite of themselves.

The reality is I think we are still learning and we don't have all the answers - it will be a long time before we do. I don't know the right course of action - I simple prefer to listen to the overwhelming consensus among the scientists. It's not like the POTUS is winging it and coming up with is own whack theories and suggestions like we had before.
Can any of you imagine what would have happened had we had some of these people not wanting to take the Polio vaccine? Yikes.. I can understand a young person not understanding... They can get the facts about Polio, they are out there. But someone my age, damn folks,, Grow the hell up.
Nobody is trying to keep Americans from working. Get the damned vaccine and go to work. Vaccines have been mandated in order to go to school for decades. Stop supporting those throwing a temper tantrum and blaming the consequences for that tantrum on everyone else. Federal unemployment benefits ended over two months ago. Stop spreading that lie. They ended on September 6th.

Expiration of Federal Unemployment and Pandemic Benefits

https://dol.ny.gov/fedexp
There are medical and religious exemptions as part of the mandate. There are also alternatives (testing + masking) to the vaccine.

Artificial outrage.
They don't want to talk about that part.
Originally Posted by Ballpeen
Originally Posted by RocketOptimist
SCOTUS decided
Give it up tasty and Peen
Let’s move forward now

The powers under the 10th are granted to the states, not the federal government.

And this is altogether different. The feds are trying to do a end around by using OSHA. We'll see if that flies or not.

It's strange that in the USA we are trying to prevent people from working, either through mandates or out and out bribery. We are paying people to stay home and not get a job.

Where do I sign up for being paid without getting a job? Unless you are talking about unemployment, a program we've had forever under both parties??? Or are you upset about people forced to stay home during the pandemic getting financial help through that time? Tha seems like a stupid thing to be upset about if it is... It seems to me that GOPers are butt hurt over the vaccine mandates but trying to twist that into a program to make people not work is crazy. The mandates all have an option for the unvaccinated to get regular testing and to wear masks, instead of being fully vaccinated. It's just that GOPers don't want to take on any personal responsibility for their contagious disease carrying selves... Covid kills. Get it through your heads already.
The Democrats don't follow any constitution. They are Tyrants.
If you don't know them by now, you will never ever ever know them.
So the fact you don't have to get the vaccine and instead can wear a mask and be tested makes them tyrants now? rofl
j/c...

Likely headed to SCOTUS...

Originally Posted by oobernoober
There are medical and religious exemptions as part of the mandate. There are also alternatives (testing + masking) to the vaccine.

Artificial outrage.

Not only artificial outrage, but outrage that then segues into saying it's part of a goal to further collapse the economy, based on nothing.

You can't make this stuff up.
Yeah, I wasn't even going to touch that response. Ridiculous.
The best example of artificial outrage is that of your president, mandating us while allowing thousands of the infected to cross our open southern border.

Then its off to scatter around America.

Artificial outrage at the citizens of this land!

Actual Shame on him!
Originally Posted by 40YEARSWAITING
mandating us while allowing thousands of the infected to cross our open southern border.

New record set for arrests at the border all time. Nobody is "allowing" anything. You post lies while saying shame on others.

US recorded more than 1.6 million southern border arrests last year, highest on record

In September, the border agency made 185,515 arrests, bringing the total to 1,659,206 during fiscal year 2021, which runs from October through September, data shows.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/10/22/politics/us-border-patrol-record-arrests-2020/index.html


Republican governors lead attack on Biden vaccine mandate

Nov 5 (Reuters) - Republican governors began filing lawsuits on Friday to stop the Biden administration's requirement that nearly 2 million U.S. employers get workers tested or vaccinated for COVID-19, saying it trampled civil liberties.

After President Joe Biden, a Democrat, said on Thursday he will enforce the mandate starting Jan. 4, the states of Florida, Georgia and Alabama jointly sued in the 11th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Atlanta.

"The federal government can't just unilaterally impose medical policy under the guise of workplace regulation," Florida Governor Ron DeSantis said at a press conference on Thursday.

The lawsuit by the three states, as well as two trade groups, two private companies and two schools, said the mandate exceeded the administration's legal authority and conflicted with the First Amendment of the U.S. Constitution and with the Religious Freedom Restoration Act.

The Republican governors of more than a dozen other states also vowed to challenge the mandate in court and several cases were filed by private employers.

The regulation was implemented as a rarely used emergency rule from the Occupational Safety and Health Administration, the federal workplace regulator. read more

"Biden just announced his plan to wield OSHA to mandate vaccines on private businesses," Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton, a Republican, wrote on Twitter on Thursday. "I'm announcing my plan to sue him once this illegal, unconstitutional regulation hits the Federal Register."

Texas is among the Republican-led states that have issued executive orders or enacted laws that ban COVID-19 vaccine mandates or prevent employers from seeking an employee's vaccination status.

OSHA said the rule takes precedence over conflicting state laws. It will take effect on Friday when it is due to be published in the federal register.

Responding to opponents of the rule, a senior administration official said OSHA clearly has the authority to act to protect workers from health and safety hazards. COVID-19 has killed more than 745,000 people in the United States.

Biden said in September that patience was wearing thin with the 30% of Americans who remain unvaccinated and who made up the vast majority of those hospitalized during the most recent wave of COVID-19 infections.

Mandates have been used by private businesses and local governments to drive up COVID-19 vaccination rates and courts have generally upheld them because states typically have the power to regulate healthcare within their borders.

Previous uses of OSHA's emergency rule have a history of being blocked in court. read more

Even if the mandate is upheld by the courts, some states still might not implement the rule.

OSHA applies to private workplaces in 29 states. The remaining states, including at least five with Republican leaders who have vowed to oppose the rule, have their own state-run OSHA that is required to adopt the federal rule.

OSHA issued a similar COVID-19 rule for healthcare settings in June, and in October the federal agency threatened to take over the state-run OSHA agencies in Arizona, South Carolina and Utah for failing to adopt it. Arizona and South Carolina have since said they have started the process to adopt the rule.

Officials in Utah did not respond to a request for comment.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/republican-governors-lead-attack-biden-vaccine-mandate-2021-11-05/
They don't deal in facts bro... you know this.
Nice try.
CNN as your source? (tell us about their anonymous sources and the Steele Dossier.)

So tell us where the illegals go after they have been detained.

Many are sent back but many are released into America aren't they?

The people of NY, Florida, Texas and Arizona can point them out to you.
rofl YOU knocking a news source is just rich!
Are you referring to FOX News?

FOX told us from the beginning that CNN was lying about collusion and the Steele Dossier.

Only the ignorant fell for their crap.
But none of it was a lie. None of it. We have the pee tape ready for 2024.
Vaccinated people can spread the virus. Why don't they have to be tested? The goal is to stop the spread of the virus, right?
Originally Posted by 40YEARSWAITING
The best example of artificial outrage is that of your president, mandating us while allowing thousands of the infected to cross our open southern border.

Then its off to scatter around America.

Artificial outrage at the citizens of this land!

Actual Shame on him!

Why are we deflecting to talk about the border in this thread?
Just stop nit picking and get your jab.
Can you imagine the uproar from the left if trump had mandated this? Those lefties that support it now, under Biden, would've been lighting there hair on fire if trump had done it.
Originally Posted by archbolddawg
Can you imagine the uproar from the left if trump had mandated this? Those lefties that support it now, under Biden, would've been lighting there hair on fire if trump had done it.

You're right and wrong. Unlike you I wouldn't drink bleach or shove a UV light up my ass on Trump's word alone for sure... but I would have taken the vaccine after Fauci, and the CDC said to do it. I was way more worried about getting covid than most due to pre-existing health issues. But you could well be right about most of the left. And what would you expect after the way Trump talked to and or about the left? He was never our President, his words.
See, this is exactly where you come across as stupid. You've called me a trumpian more times that I can count. Why can't you grow up?

I don't, haven't, and never will drink bleach, or shove a uv light up my ass, on ANY one's word.

Get this, dude: I've gotten the vaccine, and I really believe I had covid 2 january's ago.

Why do you hate so much? Why do you insinuate stuff of which you know nothing about? It's a sad look on your part. And in fact, if you didn't have me on ignore, which you don't and probably never did..............you would know I got the vaccine. Open your damn head, leave the hate somewhere else.

This stupid ass stuff you post is WHY I reply to you. yet you always find a way to blame others. Hey, how many people died of gunshots at Astroworld again? Oh, that's right, you found a tweet that said what you wanted it to, and you ran with it. Only to make you look foolish, again.
Probably because you support Trump in everything all the time on here. That will make people think you are Trumpian arch, GMAB. Now I might be way off the point, but the way you come across in here is 100% Trump supporter. Ask anyone.
The "source" of those numbers was The U.S. Border Patrol. That's the figure they gave. CNN just reported the numbers. Stop pretending to be stupid. At least I hope you're pretending.
Originally Posted by Squires
Vaccinated people can spread the virus. Why don't they have to be tested? The goal is to stop the spread of the virus, right?

Because of things like numbers and facts.

CDC: Unvaccinated 5 times more likely to get COVID again vs. those who are vaccinated

https://www.newschannel5.com/news/c...-covid-again-vs-those-who-are-vaccinated

Fully vaccinated less likely to pass COVID-19 to others

https://www.osfhealthcare.org/blog/fully-vaccinated-less-likely-to-pass-covid-19-to-others/

Since 90% of those hospitalized and dying are among the unvaccinated, this question has been addressed repeatedly. The main objective is to stop people from dying, being hospitalized ansd having long haul effects from covid. I'm not sure how many more times it will need to be repeated until people get the message.
Originally Posted by archbolddawg
Can you imagine the uproar from the left if trump had mandated this? Those lefties that support it now, under Biden, would've been lighting there hair on fire if trump had done it.

Can you imagine people just making BS up when even while Trump was president the same people you speak of were listening to the health experts and not politicians? Because that's the only real difference here. One side listens to quack politicians rather than medical and viral experts. One side thinking doing what's right to keep Americans safe is attacking their "freedumb". The other side listens to those health and viral experts. Just because you think everything is about politics. My family dying or being protected does not.
Originally Posted by archbolddawg
Can you imagine the uproar from the left if trump had mandated this? Those lefties that support it now, under Biden, would've been lighting there hair on fire if trump had done it.

I doubt it would be much of an uproar.... The Left has been saying from the beginning... He'd have been congratulated.. Just like he was for pushing to get the vaccine in the first place...

By the way,, a little off topic,, but Congrats to Boy name Tom....
Originally Posted by Damanshot
Can any of you imagine what would have happened had we had some of these people not wanting to take the Polio vaccine? Yikes.. I can understand a young person not understanding... They can get the facts about Polio, they are out there. But someone my age, damn folks,, Grow the hell up.
Yes, the facts are out there. And the facts say that many millions of Americans were highly skeptical of the polio vaccine after it was introduced and before it finished it's first trial on a large number of kids. Even after that there was significant skepticism from some people. There were a lot of people who didn't want to get it.
And it was mandated in order for any person to go to school because if not, they would have allowed stupidity to win.
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
And it was mandated in order for any person to go to school because if not, they would have allowed stupidity to win.
One school district at a time... Never before in our history has a president mandated, nationally, that adults get a medical treatment as a condition of their employment. He probably has broader leverage to do this with federal employees, but then he has reached to basically anybody who does work with federal employees, and he is using OSHA as an end run to force it on everybody else. Whether you think it's a good idea or not, whether you think it separates the stupid people from the smart people like yourself or not, what you are seeing is relatively unprecedented in terms of presidential use of power... so the fact that some people are concerned about the constitutionality of it, the long term impacts of the precedents being set, etc seems fairly normal to me. In fact, any time the government or the president unilaterally decides to grant themselves more power and authority, I think it should be seriously challenged.
And I understand how it can be viewed that way. Yet at the same time this has already killed close to one million Americans and there is no sign that will be ending soon. And there's two facts I consider when looking at this situation. The first is that it most certainly is the number one job of OSHA to keep the work place safe. There's also factually no question that the work place is much less safe when there are unvaccinated people in that work place.
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
Originally Posted by archbolddawg
Can you imagine the uproar from the left if trump had mandated this? Those lefties that support it now, under Biden, would've been lighting there hair on fire if trump had done it.

Can you imagine people just making BS up when even while Trump was president the same people you speak of were listening to the health experts and not politicians? Because that's the only real difference here. One side listens to quack politicians rather than medical and viral experts. One side thinking doing what's right to keep Americans safe is attacking their "freedumb". The other side listens to those health and viral experts. Just because you think everything is about politics. My family dying or being protected does not.

And the worst part of all of that, is the quack politicians who keep championing the antivax crap, are all vaccinated. Trump is vaccinated. So they themselves listen, and then try to convince their followers to ignore it. It baffling that people still fall for it.

Trump pushed the vaccine, got the vaccine, and then still talked about the COVID hoax nonstop.
So, there is an older extended family member that tried to argue all the GOPer antivaccination points with me... Looked her square in the eyes and asked her how long she protested before getting the smallpox and polio vaccines? I just got a dirty look. But that ended the argument.
Originally Posted by DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
And it was mandated in order for any person to go to school because if not, they would have allowed stupidity to win.
One school district at a time... Never before in our history has a president mandated, nationally, that adults get a medical treatment as a condition of their employment. He probably has broader leverage to do this with federal employees, but then he has reached to basically anybody who does work with federal employees, and he is using OSHA as an end run to force it on everybody else. Whether you think it's a good idea or not, whether you think it separates the stupid people from the smart people like yourself or not, what you are seeing is relatively unprecedented in terms of presidential use of power... so the fact that some people are concerned about the constitutionality of it, the long term impacts of the precedents being set, etc seems fairly normal to me. In fact, any time the government or the president unilaterally decides to grant themselves more power and authority, I think it should be seriously challenged.


I can agree that we should always question anything the government does in regards to expanding its power. That should always be questioned 100%. The issue being, and both parties do it, is that no one questions it unless it's the "other guys" doing it. Trump used executive orders nonstop to push through anything and everything he wanted. And Republicans saw no issue. Now Biden is doing it as well, and Republicans have a problem, and Democrats did the opposite for both as well.
Quote
And the worst part of all of that, is the quack politicians who keep championing the antivax crap, are all vaccinated.
Who are these influential quack politicians who are championing the antivax?

Quote
Trump pushed the vaccine, got the vaccine, and then still talked about the COVID hoax nonstop.
Did he? I don't really recall that but I haven't listened to much of anything he's been saying at his rallies since he left office.
Originally Posted by Damanshot
By the way,, a little off topic,, but Congrats to Boy name Tom....
It's GIRL Named Tom.
Originally Posted by DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted by Damanshot
Can any of you imagine what would have happened had we had some of these people not wanting to take the Polio vaccine? Yikes.. I can understand a young person not understanding... They can get the facts about Polio, they are out there. But someone my age, damn folks,, Grow the hell up.
Yes, the facts are out there. And the facts say that many millions of Americans were highly skeptical of the polio vaccine after it was introduced and before it finished it's first trial on a large number of kids. Even after that there was significant skepticism from some people. There were a lot of people who didn't want to get it.

Yet, when was the last time you heard of someone having Polio....
Originally Posted by archbolddawg
Originally Posted by Damanshot
By the way,, a little off topic,, but Congrats to Boy name Tom....
It's GIRL Named Tom.

Ha,, yes it is,, still Congrats,., they are moving on and I think they have a shot.
Originally Posted by Damanshot
Originally Posted by DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted by Damanshot
Can any of you imagine what would have happened had we had some of these people not wanting to take the Polio vaccine? Yikes.. I can understand a young person not understanding... They can get the facts about Polio, they are out there. But someone my age, damn folks,, Grow the hell up.
Yes, the facts are out there. And the facts say that many millions of Americans were highly skeptical of the polio vaccine after it was introduced and before it finished it's first trial on a large number of kids. Even after that there was significant skepticism from some people. There were a lot of people who didn't want to get it.

Yet, when was the last time you heard of someone having Polio....

When was the last time you heard of the flu shot preventing the flu for the rest of your life?
So the fact you may need boosters along the way changes the fact that 90% pf those being hospitalized and dying are unvaccinated?
Originally Posted by Damanshot
Originally Posted by DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted by Damanshot
Can any of you imagine what would have happened had we had some of these people not wanting to take the Polio vaccine? Yikes.. I can understand a young person not understanding... They can get the facts about Polio, they are out there. But someone my age, damn folks,, Grow the hell up.
Yes, the facts are out there. And the facts say that many millions of Americans were highly skeptical of the polio vaccine after it was introduced and before it finished it's first trial on a large number of kids. Even after that there was significant skepticism from some people. There were a lot of people who didn't want to get it.

Yet, when was the last time you heard of someone having Polio....
Late 1970s... what's your point? Is it that since they got it right at some point in the past we should never question them in the future?
It seems they've gotten it right a lot of times.

State-by-State: Vaccinations Required for Public School Kindergarten

https://vaccines.procon.org/state-by-state-vaccinations-required-for-public-school-kindergarten/

With 90% of those being hospitalized and dying among the unvaccinated and over 434 million doses administered in the U.S., at what point is it no longer logical to question it?
Pit, I've been vaccinated since spring, in fact I'm due for a booster around Thanksgiving and I will almost certainly get it. I think it was logical to get vaccinated a long time ago.

I also think the republican party really screwed the pooch in their approach to this and most of what we are seeing should be blamed on the leadership of the republican party. There is a study out there, but I can't immediately find the link, that studied the impact of political influence on a persons willingness to get vaccinated and it was a very high correlation that as more republican leaders have started endorsing vaccination, more republicans are getting vaccinated.. but they dug themselves such a hole with their double talk of doing one thing but saying another, that it will take some time to recover. In fact, I would say that as of today, there are far more of these republicans who won't get vaccinated because they are pushing back against the mandate than they are the vaccination itself. To put it bluntly, they are like kids who will just flat out refuse to do what they are told to do, even if they know it's good for them.
Wasn't it the Left who coined the phrase, "My Body My Choice?"

Why does that only apply to abortion?
Oh you have a choice. As long as you are willing to pay the consequences for that choice.
I think the only place we disagree is when it comes to the mandates. There was a concerted effort for months to encourage people to get the vaccine. The number of people getting the vaccine had slowed to a crawl for the very political reasons you stated. Once every other option had been exhausted, only then did the option of mandated vaccines being imposed appear to be the only option left. Of course you are correct that it has now become a rallying point for anti vaxxers but that in no way explains that they weren't and had no intention of getting the vaccine before mandates.
I wouldn't say it slowed to a crawl, there was the initial surge once the vaccine became available in large quantities, then once the surge was over it has continued to rise fairly steadily. As I said, could have been a steeper curve had republicans not created so much confusion and anxiety among so many people. Which relates to my other position, republicans are fighting hard against mandates when, had they not acted the way they did from winter 2020 through spring of 2021, mandates might have never been necessary. They essentially created an issue that they could then blame on democrats.
As of June 2021, yes, vaccines had slowed to a crawl.

Vaccination in America Might Have Only One Tragic Path Forward

COVID-19 vaccination rates have fallen off a cliff. Will it take a deadly summer surge to change things?

https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2021/07/america-covid-19-vaccine-decline/619474/
Originally Posted by 40YEARSWAITING
Wasn't it the Left who coined the phrase, "My Body My Choice?"

Why does that only apply to abortion?


The same logic works in reverse, too.
Originally Posted by dawglover05
Originally Posted by 40YEARSWAITING
Wasn't it the Left who coined the phrase, "My Body My Choice?"

Why does that only apply to abortion?


The same logic works in reverse, too.

Yes it does, currently.
Originally Posted by dawglover05
Originally Posted by 40YEARSWAITING
Wasn't it the Left who coined the phrase, "My Body My Choice?"

Why does that only apply to abortion?


The same logic works in reverse, too.
No it doesn't.. because as of January 4, vaccines will be pretty much mandated if you want to have a job and function in society and abortion will still be legal.
jc

So many delicious antivaxxer tears... my cup runneth over.
And the consequences of no mandated vaccines seems to be over 500 Americans dying every day. And that number climbs and decreases seemingly at will. At some point people need to realize when they object to the vaccine they are supporting Americans continuing to die at a far higher rate than need be. With winter approaching, far more travel and indoor activities will be conducted. If the past is any indication, that will not play well for the daily death count.
Which country would you like to emulate Pit? Which first world country has done it right in their vaccine mandate?
At this point I wish Biden's admin would just stop pushing the vaccines altogether. Yep, I'm rooting for Darwin to prevail.
So you reply to a question and a statement with a question? I had no idea that's how a debate was supposed to work? But let's use a little context here. People say we are leaders in the world.That we set the standards in human rights, innovation and are the leading military power. Now you question why we shouldn't be the leader in setting the standard for minimizing covid deaths?

What we know is 90% of those hospitalized and dying of covid are unvaccinated. By extension we also know that the more people that are vaccinated equals less people dying. And your only reply seems to be, "Yeah, but who else has shown it works?"

We live in a nation that is supposed to be a world leader. Other nations are supposed to emulate the example we set. We're not supposed to be emulating them.
You didn't ask me a question. You made a statement, I responded with a question asking for more information.. yes, that is how informal debate is supposed to work. I just wanted to know if there was a country out there that you think we should emulate that is getting it right.

Quote
People say we are leaders in the world.That we set the standards in human rights, innovation and are the leading military power. Now you question why we shouldn't be the leader in setting the standard for minimizing covid deaths?
That's weird because when the virus was really raging, "people" also kept pointing to other countries with better results and saying, "Why don't we do it like they are?" The left routinely cherry picked whichever country was having the most success at the time to compare us to, then when that country would have a surge, they would move on to another country that was having success.. and the right just kept making excuses as to why nothing these other countries were doing would work here. Because politics>solutions

Quote
We live in a nation that is supposed to be a world leader. Other nations are supposed to emulate the example we set. We're not supposed to be emulating them.
Yes, "a" world leader... not "the" world leader.... This is the kind of arrogance about American exceptionalism that has gotten us into trouble for many decades, us thinking we are better and smarter than everybody else and the rest of the world should be listening to us and following us instead of the other way around.. and that the problems of the world would go away if only everybody acted and thought like us.... There are smart people all over the world and other countries/cultures have solved many problems that we can't seem to solve here because of our arrogance to do everything "our way" instead of adopting and adapting a plan that has proven to work elsewhere.

The number 1 rule of leadership in the business world is to keep your door and your ears open because good ideas come from everywhere, from the factory floor, from the janitor, from the junior accountant, from the sales person in the field.. doesn't matter. In fact the best ideas come from the people who deal with the day to day things you don't deal with every day. The number 1 way to fail as a leader is to think you have all the best ideas and they should be unilaterally imposed on everybody else... (aka... Donald Trump)
When you ask the guy next door to defend you in a fight and he agrees to, you owe him something from that day forward.

Otherwise, defend yourself!
So your summation is we shouldn't advance the use of covid vaccines by any means necessary which would greatly reduce American deaths because as of yet nobody else has? You do realize that other nations are employing covid mandates now and that none of them really wanted to do this, including us, until it was the only option left? Once again it seems you keep trying to throw up roadblocks and excuses why we shouldn't take any measures necessary to reduce the number of Americans dying of covid.
Question for you Pit, just interested in your opinion, a few facts first...

Covid is a highly contagious airborne virus.

Many people are not vaccinated.

Vaccination effectiveness is waning to the point of many estimates saying that they are less than 50% effective in most of the population.


If there is some great division, where many Americans are compassionate and the rest are scumbags...

Why isn't anyone wearing masks??

Are you??

Everywhere I go... sporting events, shopping, a recent concert... there is less than 1% wearing masks.

Isn't it safe to say, given the facts stated above, that the other 99% are scumbags that don't care for their fellow Americans??
Originally Posted by DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted by dawglover05
Originally Posted by 40YEARSWAITING
Wasn't it the Left who coined the phrase, "My Body My Choice?"

Why does that only apply to abortion?


The same logic works in reverse, too.
No it doesn't.. because as of January 4, vaccines will be pretty much mandated if you want to have a job and function in society and abortion will still be legal.

1. Apologies, because I keep screwing up the quote function with this new setup.

2. I think our points are ships passing. You are correct in terms of the letter of the law. Although it has nothing really to do with this thread, I am not pro choice, but I just wanted to cite the hypocrisy of either side utilizing my body my choice to their own advantage. My point is that on one hand, you have people saying “My body my choice” while being in favor of the vaccine mandate. On the other hand, you have people saying “we must protect the constitutional rights of the unborn” while railing (in some cases emphatically) against the vaccine mandates. So, as far as I’m concerned, the whole “my body, my choice” mantra is a weak-minded, hypocritical battle standard when considering so much double speak.

3. When it comes to me, personally, I am not in favor of mandating people be given vaccines no matter what, but if your company says you have to pay more for your health insurance without getting the vaccine, or places say that you have to wear a mask because you’re not vaccinated, quit whining about it. I’m done with it.

Sorry for anyone who thinks I’m being terse. It’s been a long week.
Getting vaccinated is uber American.

If we are talking about saving lives.
j/c:

Federal court UPHOLDS decision to halt Biden's federal vaccine mandate after blasting edict as 'staggeringly overbroad'

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...n-COVID-19-vaccine-mandate.html#comments
I'm wondering where this court was when they allow employers to fire somebody if they catch them smoking a cigarette?
Originally Posted by dawglover05
Originally Posted by DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted by dawglover05
Originally Posted by 40YEARSWAITING
Wasn't it the Left who coined the phrase, "My Body My Choice?"

Why does that only apply to abortion?


The same logic works in reverse, too.
No it doesn't.. because as of January 4, vaccines will be pretty much mandated if you want to have a job and function in society and abortion will still be legal.

1. Apologies, because I keep screwing up the quote function with this new setup.

2. I think our points are ships passing. You are correct in terms of the letter of the law. Although it has nothing really to do with this thread, I am not pro choice, but I just wanted to cite the hypocrisy of either side utilizing my body my choice to their own advantage. My point is that on one hand, you have people saying “My body my choice” while being in favor of the vaccine mandate. On the other hand, you have people saying “we must protect the constitutional rights of the unborn” while railing (in some cases emphatically) against the vaccine mandates. So, as far as I’m concerned, the whole “my body, my choice” mantra is a weak-minded, hypocritical battle standard when considering so much double speak.

3. When it comes to me, personally, I am not in favor of mandating people be given vaccines no matter what, but if your company says you have to pay more for your health insurance without getting the vaccine, or places say that you have to wear a mask because you’re not vaccinated, quit whining about it. I’m done with it.

Sorry for anyone who thinks I’m being terse. It’s been a long week.

The difference on the choice matter boils down to not just personal choice, but the rights of the unborn. A vaccine as an example can't be given rights where it can be argued a unborn human should have rights.

Not to take the discussion down a different road, but that is where at the least an argument can be made.
Was it a wildly unconstitutional mandate for Polio? How about Small Pox?

https://www.governing.com/now/the-long-history-of-mandated-vaccines-in-the-united-states

https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/new...how-people-reacted-then-and-now/2984174/

I guess that since it wasn't considered wildly or even mildly unconstitutional in the past, It must be because Biden did it this time...

And we all know, Trumpians don't like anything that doesn't make Trump look good...
The question is where one’s constitutional rights ends vs where another’s begins. The same question that Jacobsen directly dealt with.
Originally Posted by FATE
Question for you Pit, just interested in your opinion, a few facts first...

Covid is a highly contagious airborne virus.

Many people are not vaccinated.

Vaccination effectiveness is waning to the point of many estimates saying that they are less than 50% effective in most of the population.


If there is some great division, where many Americans are compassionate and the rest are scumbags...

Why isn't anyone wearing masks??

Are you??

Everywhere I go... sporting events, shopping, a recent concert... there is less than 1% wearing masks.

Isn't it safe to say, given the facts stated above, that the other 99% are scumbags that don't care for their fellow Americans??

First, you seem to be confusing the fact that vaccinated people getting Covid is even the issue here. That's not the issue. The issue is American deaths and hospitalizations. The vast majority of all Covid deaths are the unvaccinated. That's the point. Making sure the least number of Americans die and have long term covid symptoms is the goal here. If you would like to discuss that issue I would be happy to.

Yes, any time I go into a crowded, enclosed environment I wear a mask. When I go somewhere like Kroger I see half or more of all the customers wearing mask. Outdoor events and non crowded situations I often times don't.

While it's not something I condone, I can see how the vaccinated are just getting tired of trying to continue to protect the unvaccinated. The unvaccinated have been being told for over a year and shown how dangerous it is to be unvaccinated. Their ignorance means the rest of us have to pay for it. How much longer do you think the vaccinated should continue to pay the price for that? So I think it's gotten to the point many vaccinated Americans give a damn is busted.

I also don't think most Americans, even many vaccinated Americans understand the entire picture here. While I still wear a mask in crowded indoor circumstances, it's most certainly not to help protect the unvaccinated. When it comes to them my give a damn is busted too. My wife and I wear one to help protect the immunocompromised. There are many conditions that prevent many people, through no fault of their own, to have an immune system deficiency which makes it very hard for their systems to build up an immunity to things. And often times when they do get some build up against Covid from the vaccines, it's short lived. And for some the vaccine does not help.

Just a couple of conditions are cancer patients and as well as organ and transplant patients. There are certainly many other conditions that make you far more prone to contracting covid and greatly increase the risk of severe symptoms. Those are the people I am trying to help protect at this juncture.
Federal appeals court calls Biden vaccine mandate ‘fatally flawed’ and ‘staggeringly overbroad’

-The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit, in an opinion issued Friday evening, reaffirmed its decision to press pause on the implementation of the Biden vaccine requirements.

-The court criticized the requirements as “a one-size-fits-all sledgehammer that makes hardly any attempt to account for differences in workplaces (and workers).”

-The Biden administration had asked the court to lift the pause, warning that delaying implementation “would likely cost dozens or even hundreds of lives per day” as the virus spreads.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/13/fed...-flawed-and-staggeringly-overbroad-.html
That borders legislating from the bench.
It will just move up to a higher court as these things usually do.
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
why we shouldn't take any measures necessary


Let's give government unlimited power, I'm sure that will end well. banghead banghead banghead banghead
Yeah, mmmm, only that's not what is happening here. Not even close. Do you honestly believe that when 90% of those dying are unvaccinated, taking every possible measure you can to stop Americans from dying is some unlimited power? I do however understand that there are a certain percentage of people who take everything our government does as some kind of way to undermine their freedumbs. If there weren't numerous mandated vaccines already required for children to even go to school, which is a mandate that every child be vaccinated from several diseases. I could see why you might, no matter how desperate of an attempt it would be, see this as government overreach. But that's not the case. It's just one more vaccine added to the list like every other vaccine that's saved countless American lives.

"They're trying to stop Muricans from dying! We gotta stop um!"

That's how this sounds to thinking people.
Originally Posted by 40YEARSWAITING
Federal appeals court calls Biden vaccine mandate ‘fatally flawed’ and ‘staggeringly overbroad’

-The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit, in an opinion issued Friday evening, reaffirmed its decision to press pause on the implementation of the Biden vaccine requirements.

-The court criticized the requirements as “a one-size-fits-all sledgehammer that makes hardly any attempt to account for differences in workplaces (and workers).”

-The Biden administration had asked the court to lift the pause, warning that delaying implementation “would likely cost dozens or even hundreds of lives per day” as the virus spreads.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/11/13/fed...-flawed-and-staggeringly-overbroad-.html

No outbreaks of Small Pox or Polio,,, would this Federal Appeals Court call those Mandates "fatally flawed" or Staggeringly Overbroad"?

This is stupidity at it's finest.
All of the covid vaccines have not existed for a long enough time to not be considered experimental.
They've existed long enough to be run through enough clinical trials to gain full approval from the FDA. If you don't trust that process, then you have a serious problem on your hands. All the life-saving devices in a hospital room, band-aids, syringes, prescription and OTC medicines, and many home therapy things are now in question.
A total of over 443 million doses have been given to Americans and over 194 million Americans have been fully vaccinated. I wonder how many more millions being vaccinated it will take before they stop trotting out the "it's an experiment " BS?
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
A total of over 443 million doses have been given to Americans and over 194 million Americans have been fully vaccinated. I wonder how many more millions being vaccinated it will take before they stop trotting out the "it's an experiment " BS?


I'm waiting for the vaccination to actually work and keep people from getting sick {not subjectively}less sick or prevent covid from spreading.
What is a booster shot. What a booster shot used to be was.
Someone would get their childhood shots in the first year of life, and about puberty, as they entered jr. high school, they'd review medical records to see if they still needed any "booster" shots.
OK, not only was it 11-12 years later, but at the onset of adulthood, so, common sense, maybe there is a need for a booster.

Covid? Not only are all the vaccines only less than 2 years old, but the demand for more doses only increases.
With no data on the long term side effects.
Originally Posted by superbowldogg
Originally Posted by PitDAWG
A total of over 443 million doses have been given to Americans and over 194 million Americans have been fully vaccinated. I wonder how many more millions being vaccinated it will take before they stop trotting out the "it's an experiment " BS?


I'm waiting for the vaccination to actually work and keep people from getting sick {not subjectively}less sick or prevent covid from spreading.

So your theory is then that with the vast majority of people in the hospital and dying of Covid being the unvaccinated your conclusion is it doesn't work?
What's your opinion on the flu vaccine?
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