First time I've seen the parents of a teen mass shooter charged… hmm.

Some states require that guns at home are locked up. Not sure if Michigan is one of those states.

That's new. I wonder what the exact statute subsection was that was cited in the charges, and I'd like to be able to read that section.

NO! Gun law doesn't need reformed there is enough maybe too much already. They need to follow it and apply the law fairly without bias.

I don't know any facts about the shooting you referenced.
I'm trying to remember. Probably the 15 year old kid from last week.
I can't see any of your (blank box of youtube) posted stories anyway.
1st time parents were charged?
I bet they were white. This country would never charge parents for kids crimes unless they were white, they could never let white people live free from racial interference by harassment. Not in 2021.

In other news, Notre Dame hired a new coach.
Unbelieveable

He's inexperienced therefore unqualified, but, he's not white! Pass up his white boss for an appointed job because,
well what would we allow if
If Notre Dame hired the White defensive coordinator out of Cincinnati, when the Cincinnati Head coach, who happens to be Black, was sitting right there with, As an Actual Head Coach, along with hundreds/dozens of other black Qualified head coaches across the College Football spectrum
but! we see Notre Dame hired a White inexperienced coordinator from the same team? Because of the color of his skin.
Must be.

Oh! Its ok, its ok, the colors are reversed. Reversed! The white guy got passed up, the black guy got the better job. (I suppose black people can keep telling themselves they have to work 10 times harder because of the color of their skin, when they get free rides to the top.) because it feeds their selfishness? That's been front and center. As long as the right people get held down, the racism is acceptable. As long as it's the white guy who gets passed up, people should, celebrate? <that's a terrible way of thinking, but it seems the message sent by society.

The Oprah Winfrey model. Oprah Winfrey got a talk show because she was a victim of abuse? And any other known reasons or qualifications? (But that was way back in 1987.)
Whites need not apply. Who needs to put it on a sign its loud and clear.

I happened to be in the company of three Canadians this morning when it was announced on the radio that the parents were charged. Of course, like anyone they were appalled by the actions of the shooter....

One of them made a comment about how we have a lot of school shootings in America. Which caused me to ask, don't you have them in Canada? The all said, in unison,, NO... Now keep in mind, I haven't checked or researched it.. Not even a little. ( But if Had to guess, I bet they did have shootings). I asked if they gave strict gun laws in canada and they all said that they do....

What does that mean? No idea,, but Strict Gun Laws and no school shootings sure sounds good to me...

That might be the worst post I have ever read on this board.

It means that many Americans have accepted the death count that we endure every year just to block common sense gun control. Minors walking around the street with a loaded AR-15? Legal. Up until this mass school shooting I can remember parents being charged for not responsibly taking common sense measures to keep guns and ammo out of the hands of minors unless supervised. Why? Because many places it's not illegal. They want all the rights without any of the responsibility. Somehow they think the body count is worth it.

Stay tuned.....

[video:youtube][/video]

Canada
Canada has had a total of 19 school shootings between 1884 and 2016. The deadliest of these shooting was the Ecole Polytechnique massacre in Montreal, which resulted in 15 deaths including the perpetrator. Several of the Canadian school shootings have resulted in zero or one death, including the 1884 shooting where only the perpetrator died.

ARTICLE REFERENCED

A school shooting is an attack at an educational institution, such as a primary school, secondary school, or university, involving the use of firearms. Many school shootings are categorized as mass shootings because of the number of casualties. The United States Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) defines a mass murder (can be used for mass shooting) as “four or more murdered during an event with no ‘cooling-off period’ between murders.”

Factors being school shootings include lack of family supervision, family dysfunction, mental illness, or psychological problems. The top motives of attackers were bullying/persecution/threatened and revenge. Other motives include suicide and depression and seeking attention or recognition.

The United States is no stranger to school shootings and the country has a long history of school shootings, both small and mass shootings. On April 20, 1999, two students opened fire at Columbine High School, killing 12 students and one teacher. In the two decades following the Columbine shooting, there have been 11 mass school shootings and many other smaller ones. John Cohen, a former Department of Homeland Security official, stated that Columbine has “absolutely” influenced subsequent shootings. Among the mass shootings since Columbine are Sandy Hook, Virginia Tech, and Parkland. Virginia Tech is the deadliest school shooting in U.S. history.

While school shootings are considered to be a “uniquely American crisis,” this isn’t exactly true. Countries all over the world experience school shootings.

Countries may have incorrect or inaccurate information or reporting of school shootings. Below are the recorded school shootings in different countries around the world. Information may be missing and does not include non-school mass shootings.

Australia
Since 1991, Australia has experienced six school shootings. Two of these shootings, La Trobe University and Monash University, had one and two deaths respectively. The other four shootings did not have any deaths. The most recent school shooting in Australia was at Modbury High School in Adelaide on May 7, 2012, which resulted in no deaths and no injuries.

Brazil
Brazil has had five school shootings since 2001, resulting in a total of 30 deaths. The deadliest of these shootings was the Realengo massacre when a former student killed 12 students inside the school before killing himself. One of the five shooting, the Medaneira School shooting, did not have any deaths.

Canada
Canada has had a total of 19 school shootings between 1884 and 2016. The deadliest of these shooting was the Ecole Polytechnique massacre in Montreal, which resulted in 15 deaths including the perpetrator. Several of the Canadian school shootings have resulted in zero or one death, including the 1884 shooting where only the perpetrator died.

China
Between 1999 and 2011, China had four school shootings resulting in four deaths, two of which were the perpetrators.

Europe
European countries have had their share of school shootings, although not as frequently as in the United States or Canada.

Germany: eight shootings since 1913
Lithuania: one in 1925
Sweden: one in 1961
United Kingdom: three since 1967 and none after the 1996 massacre
Finland: three since 1989
The Netherlands: two, in 1999 and 2004
Denmark: one in 1994
Greece: one in 2009
Norway: one in 2009 (no deaths)
Hungary: one in 2009
France: two, one in 2012 and one in 2017
Estonia: one in 2014
Spain: one in 2015
Russia: three since 2014
Crimea: one in 2018
Poland: one in 2019 (no deaths)
Honduras
Gun violence in Central American countries is extremely common. In Honduras, the homicide rate is 10 times the global average. Because of heavily armed gangs in Honduras, school shootings “are so common, they are subsumed quickly into the country's news cycle and barely register outside its borders.”.

Mexico
Mexico has had 17 reported school shootings since 2004. All of these incidents have resulted in zero to two deaths each. In each of the three shootings that had two deaths, one was the perpetrator.

South Africa
South Africa has experienced five school shootings since 1994, resulting in eight deaths in total.

Asian Countries
Excluding China, several Asian nations have experienced school shootings.

Taiwan: one in 1962
Israel: two, one in 1974 and one in 2008
Yemen: one in 1997
Philippines: one in 1999
Thailand: one in 2003
Lebanon: one n 2007
India: one in 2007
Azerbaijan: one in 2009
Pakistan: one in 2014 that killed 145 - the deadliest school shooting in Asia
Other Countries
Argentina: one in 2004
New Zealand: one in 1923
Nigeria: one in 2013
Kenya: one in 2015

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/school-shootings-by-country

I appreciate the stats.

I also realize, while of little help, I know - "school shootings" in the u.s. also include drug/gang shootings, at any time of the night. They are classified as "school shootings". I don't say that to minimize the actual shootings of students.

I can see that the Canadians I met were pretty close to spot on by the data you showed...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_school_shootings_in_the_United_States

Here is a list of what is supposed to be all the mass shootings in Schools (includes college) in the USA since 2000. (I haven't checked to see if it's accurate,,, if you see something that isn't, please point it out)

Can you please point out the ones that were "Drug/Gang Shootings" that took place at night and were classified as school shootings?

Data and facts are the NRA's nightmare,,, , facts and statistics don't lie.

I'm not a gun hater at all.. I'm a guy that thinks we need tougher gun laws. We need to keep some folks as far away from guns as possible. Not at all sure why the NRA seems to think that's a bad Idea.....

I can't wait to see how the case against this punks parents turns out.

Here. https://everytownresearch.org/maps/gunfire-on-school-grounds/

Or here: https://www.edweek.org/leadership/school-shootings-in-2019-how-many-and-where/2019/02

Here: https://www.fatherly.com/health-science/map-of-school-shootings-since-2000/

You'll have to click on the links, then click on the spots.https://www.fatherly.com/health-science/map-of-school-shootings-since-2000/




On a side note, punk, yes. I'm guessing your hope is the parents get found guilty, and sentenced to long terms.

j/c...

Parents on the run from Johnny Law...

Find them and crush them under the weight of the law. Set an example for the next trashy family with more weapons than combined brain cells.

jc

I strongly feel that children and teenagers should not be given access to guns. Not for hunting. Not for range time. Not for any reason. When they are legal adults they can shoot.

I realize this wont sit well with some on this forum. But young people arent mentally mature enough to handle guns. I have been at the range in the lane next to a father and young son and it made me extremely uncomfortable.

I learned to shoot from my father and it wasnt until I was older.

One would think that by now we as a people and the government could insure the safety of our schools.

How many kids need to die and families suffer?

If we can spend all this money on guns how is it we can not secure a building?

I can not understand why there are not metal detectors and more security?

It seems that we have become complacent because it has become common. How can we accept this?

I did what you said and I noticed no specific examples of shootings caused by gangs and or Drugs

The first article made a statement drawing a conclusion that some may have been caused by drugs,, Other comments were made about Bullying which I suppose could be about gang related activities.

I honestly don't see a big correlation Drugs and gangs and school shootings.. But my guess is that there is some truth to it.


Regarding this punk and his parents.. You love to put words in my mouth.. NEVER did I ever say or indicate what I want for his parents.. You just decided what I wanted for me...

I will say this however, Maybe, just maybe if these parents get convicted, it will cause parents to take a more active role in their kids lives. Not sure of that of course, but in the higher profile cases like Sandy Hook and Columbine, the shooters seemed to be disconnected from parents and family (totally a guess here)

Your "Gotcha Moment" went down in flames....

I have to disagree with you on this one. When I was 12 years old I walked from one end of our town to the other carrying a gun and ammo, on my way to the shooting range. I had a 22 rifle and a shotgun in my room along with ammo. A lot of us went hunting with our Dad's or with family members.

I grew up target shooting with my stepfather from a young age. He taught me and my siblings respect for the weapons he put in our hands. He also instilled respect, with a touch of fear, for him. We knew not to treat the weapons around the house as toys. We knew not to mess with them when he wasn’t around, or without his permission. I’ve been handling high powered rifles, muzzle loaders, and various hand guns since I was a teen. Some lower caliber weapons I got trained on prior to that. Hell my summer camp I attended as a kid had a .22 rifle range. I always earned high marks/rewards there because of my home environment and training.
I wasn’t allowed to take my weapons off our property until I was in my late teens. Even then I needed permission.
Parents need to parent.
This kid’s parents sucked. I hope they get hammered by the legal system.

agreed... I have no problem with parents who are responsibly training/teaching their kids how to handle a gun... and the kids only have access to them with adult supervision...

if what's coming out about these parents are true, I have no issue with them being charged... free access to guns after the red flags that kid gave off... and to text him telling him he needs to be better about googling about ammo? just un real...

How times have changed. As teenagers. we'd race home from school during hunting season to grab our guns and head out to the fields. Sometimes on our bikes. One kid brought his shotgun to school to demonstrate how to clean it in a hs sports lit class.

When you were 12 were there kids shot at school?

Was there an internet and social media? Was there video games glorifying violence?

I don't know your age?

When I was 12. I had a twenty-two and a bear bow. It never entered my mind that a kid could could get killed at school.

It's been a few years ago, maybe the Sandyhook time frame, I commented about some doable fixes to help schools improve their security as it relates to the threat of guns getting into our schools.

My suggestion was to improve the security of schools AT THE DOOR, to ensure that students have a safe environment while at school. Schools need trained guards at each entry point and those guards should have access to the latest technology available to check each individual that enters a school. Each individual entering...students, teachers, workers and staff...all should be required to pass through a highly secured entrance point, to ensure that our schools are safe and free of all weapons.

Paying for this level of security could be passed on to every gun manufacturer who sell their product in the USA. A additional charge could be added to price of each weapon and those funds could be used to help pay for the needed security of our schools. Manufactures want to sell and profit off the sale of their guns...no problem...but the responsibility to insure that our students are safe while at school should be an additional requirement for selling their products in our country, IMO. Helping to defray the expense of additional security at our schools would help to save lives, IMO.


HOW MUCH IS A STUDENTS LIFE WORTH...? Additional security in our schools would save lives...!

While I certainly was not allowed to walk around on my own with a firearm at the age of 12, I get what you're saying. By the time I was 14 I could come home and go hunting on my own. Of course my back yard bordered the ground that I hunted when I was by myself so there was no need for me to be walking around any other houses or populated areas. But as others have said I had been trained in handling firearms for a couple of years before that was allowed. For the entire hunting season when I was 11 my dad made me carry a BB Gun just to spend that hunting season learning the proper procedures for carrying and handling a weapon. After that year he purchased me a singly barrel 20 gauge shotgun. By the time I was 14 I was allowed to carry a 12 gauge semi auto. We mainly hunted quail and pheasant except for during deer season.

And while it certainly worked for us and nothing went wrong, I would have to say looking around my classroom growing up, I'm certainly glad not all students were afforded that same opportunity. I'm pretty sure you knew kids when you were growing up who you were glad didn't have access to firearms.

See, I think there is a great middle ground. Something usually neither extreme of an issue like to hear. That's that minors should only have access to firearms with and during adult supervision. And the way I arrived at that conclusion is this. We're talking about minors who we don't trust to have good enough judgement to vote, decide to partake in tobacco, join the military or buy alcohol. If we don't trust them with those decisions, why would it seem logical to trust them with a loaded firearm that can kill multiple people in a matter of seconds? It also begs to question can we as a society expect all parents to be as responsible as ours were in the proper training of their children when it comes to firearms?

I'm certainly not expecting everyone to agree but I think the thought process makes sense.

j/c...

Those are good points.

We have technology. There is money. I like your ideas on funding.

You could tax gun and ammo sales. Money can be raised.

I don't understand this. Why should any parent or student have fear in school? Long ago flying was safe.

There were no threats of hijacking or terrorists. When it started happening security ramped up.
Why are we hear today with nothing after all these shootings?

I don't expect much from government. Protection from attacks. Safe roads and bridges. Good schools.
Safety at school should be a given.

So, high school kids march and protest to be protected at school. And we do nothing about it.

Repulsive.

It seems like stupid doesn't ever end..

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/arti...udent-arrested-in-school-shooting-threat

And the parents say, "to him, it was just a joke"! I don't know, maybe it is time to hold parents accountable....

Well, if you're really unlucky, maybe someday this wish will be granted. I mean, if I were going to die from doing something stupid, it damn sure wouldn't be chest thumping over the 2nd Amendment right to have a gun, while I already have a closet full of guns.

What does that mean?

Kids carry guns to school?

Imagine posting this after a recent school shooting.

This photo really scares. I’m sorry but I would never step foot inside a house with a family who takes photos like this, especially after recent events.

It’s funny how after a bombing, when Muslims pose with photos and guns, it’s terrorism.

But after a school schooling, this is considered patriotism.

Strange.

That’s a sitting US congressman. And ya know what? I don’t blame him. I blame the people that voted for him.

It’s crazy too cause the weapon Massie is holding is a weapon gunners used down range in Iraq.

That’s what Americans are cool with the masses owning. Weapons of war.

I just….I’m sorry this photo plus the recent shootings everywhere in every community…I don’t know how to process this.

bone...I believe the idea is not only doable, it is politically neutral...neither democrats or republicans should oppose the idea based their political preferences. The sole purpose of this additional security is to protect all who attend school to get their education. No student, teacher or employee of the school should have to worry about their safety while attempting to further they education. That should be a common sense idea that everyone should support.

This concept is already in use and has been for years. Here in Ohio, in our county, NO ONE goes into our courthouse without emptying their pockets , removing their belt and walking through a metal detector...to ensure the safety of everyone taking care of their business at our courthouse.

All of us should be able to agree that school kids should not have to go to school worrying about their safety while trying to get an education.

Political preference is not relative. You are right.

It has to stop.

I agree with you Mac.. And I agree with this statement. But the problem is (sorry don't mean to be debbie downer here) is that neither party wants the other party to get a "WIN".

SO if this happens on a Democrat watch, they will, without a doubt, get credit. If it happens on a republican watch, they will get the credit.

I see this as more about party over citizen.

I want to be wrong, I just don't think I am.

I think when it comes to gun laws, it's the Democrats that will be getting any sort of win. And that sucks because when the Dems get their "common sense gun laws" passed, it will probably be super light on common sense.

I don't actually disagree with you. But when we look at the extreme on the other side we also see common sense totally lacking. I think it's a no win situation sadly.

You see, I'm a gun owner. A very multiple gun owner. What I understand is that the more radical what I call "gun nuts" become, the stronger the opposition becomes towards guns. It's what I consider to be the "gun nuts" that will be the eventual downfall to us responsible gun owners. I understand totally that gun ownership is a constitutional right. But I'm also one who believes with rights comes responsibility. Let me give you what I see as a prime example.......

I think responsible gun owners would like to insure that people who carry guns, whether that's open carry or concealed, have at least a minimum basic training in gun safety and accuracy when firing a gun. To me that's not some big government requirement as much as it's just common sense. Acting responsibly. 21 states do not require a CCW permit and the trend has been intensified as of late to expand the repeal of CCW permits by what they term "consitutional carry" to put some patriotic spin to abandoning commen sense.


So while I agree that Democrats would probably do a very poor job of handling the gun control issue, I will say that there's also the flip side of that coin. The bottom line here is that many Republican states are abandoning common sense and setting up very dangerous precedents. And of course there will be a backlash. And when that backlash comes, you won't see a single one of them step up to the plate and admit that they were a part of the cause for it.

We've heard the same line of BS over and over now for decades.... "Bill Clinton gonna take mah guns!" "Obama gonna take mah guns!" "Biden gonna take mah guns!" It's the modern day Republican version of The Boy Who Cried Wolf. But I guess if they can keep selling the same lie over and over again, why should they stop?

I think common sense would dictate having something like a three day waiting period to obtain the gun you purchase makes sense. That way someone who is in the heat of the moment, with extreme anger can't simply go into a gun store, buy a weapon, load it outside, tuck it in their belt and go kill someone. A cooling down period just makes sense. Having CCW permits required so a gun owner must undergo training that insures they have at least the basic skill set of how to handle and fire a gun just makes sense. But common sense to be a more and more rare commodity these days as the extremes are taking over on both sides.

It may sound insensitive but I don't think it's right to let a mentally unstable individual dictate or influence reforms for law abiding citizens, especially ones in the constitution. Making changes to natural rights of gun laws because of something like this would be a knee jerk immature reaction based strictly on emotion.

We've always had guns ever since this country was founded. The problem isn't guns it's mental health. Until the politicians and other people put on their big boy pants and look at this everything else is futile. We're currently the freest country in the world by a MILE and it's not even close.

I will under NO circumstances let the government dictate, tax, or regulate firearms that I can own. Personally I think doing anything other than this is un-American. If you want to solve the problem, do it the right way. I have several guns but I haven't shot up my local school. Why is that? I was bullied as a kid up through middle school. It never even once entered my mind to do something like this kid did.

This is a mental health issue, plain and simple. Anyone saying otherwise is ignoring the issue.

Or has a mental health issue.

One big predictor of gun violence seems to be prior domestic violence assaults from the suspect.

A lot of people - both civilians and cops- are shot during domestic violence situations. They guy (yes, typically a dude) already had prior charges to the incident.

The laws don’t do a good enough job of keeping guns out of the hands of criminals. It’s too easy for anyone to get one. We still have loop holes like private sales that allows anyone to sell a gun to someone else with no background check involved. I believe the gun show loops still exist in some states, not sure.

Obviously criminals are criminals because they don’t care about the law, but that doesn’t mean the laws shouldn’t be strictly enforced.

Yes, we have crap now like 3D printers that can make a weapon with no serial numbers, and is perfectly legal. But that doesn’t mean we should maintain the same laws or even loosen them. That would be like saying “well, murderers are gonna murder anyway so what’s the point of murder laws”.

This is why we can’t just have vague conversations about policy without exploring actual details and connecting the dots. Just by closing the loop holes and enforcing the ban on ex felons and/or people with current restraining orders on them, we can atleast eliminate the legal aspect of the purchase itself. That also makes it easier to convict the suspect, because he/she had to deliberately break the law in order to obtain the weapon.

There also needs to be federal laws that require all weapons and amino to be locked up in a safe when a person isn’t around inside the house. I don’t care how much safety and training you had. I don’t care how “responsible” your kids are. Clearly somebody’s kids in this country aren’t responsible, and clearly somebody hasn’t learned how to safely use their weapon and keep it secure.

Laws are laws because somebody screwed it up for everyone else, and now it had to be a rule. That’s how society works. Don’t want strict gun laws? Then tell our fellow Americans to act right. And since clearly a good chunk of our country doesn’t want to act right, then government has an obligation to step in and restrict access to some.

Just like the 1st amendment doesn’t allow you to scream ‘fire’ or ‘bomb’ in a movie theater, the 2nd amendment doesn’t - SHOULDNT- allow us to own whatever weapon we want and keep it unsecured.

This post makes just too much damned sense to ever be taken seriously.

Thank you for saying this.

I am not locking up all my weapons

[img]https://nationalinterest.org/sites/...ic/main_images/5090392.jpg?itok=ClTxhX8r[/img]

I agree.

The way my parents raised me, and in turn I raised my children is way different than most do today. I didn't think about going out and shooting other kids the first time someone hurt my feelings.

Today most kids stay at home playing shoot'em up games with coddling parents and don't know how to react the first time someone pushes them or calls them goofy looking.

When that happened to you, if you went home and told your dad what happened, what would he tell you?

The problem isn't guns. If I had to boil it down to two things, the problems are we have lost our sense of respect and shame.

The list of things we need to do to get those back is long.

If parent still paddled their kids instead of counting to three, or using time outs (what a joke) There would be less shootings in this country IMO.

Unlike some, I'm not against guns themselves.. I am however FOR common sense on who can possess guns... Let's look at those that would attempt to overthrow an election.. There isn't one of those that should ever have a gun... That includes those that would stand up in front of a crowd of people and incite them to violence.. That would be a start but by no means the end.

So when parenting fails, society as a whole fails? I agree by the way.

I was never one to say parents should suffer legal penalties for children that committed crimes like murder and such..

After all, parents can't watch every move a kid makes.. Then I realized, my parents sure as hell did.

Times are different. It used to be that you could raise a family with one parent working and the other at home.

Now you need two incomes to make it all work... Nothing easy....

But still, when I kid goes off the rails, sometimes, the parents need to be held responsible. At least that's becoming my opinion.

AH HA,, a possible answer!

Generally, I fall on the opposite side of that question. I think parents should feel some responsibility when a child does something monstrous like this, but I acknowledge that should be on a case-by-case basis. The example going on right now (Oxford, MI) seems to be an obvious example of the parents enabling a monster.

Maybe so in some cases. The problem is when? That is the slippery slope. I would have to say in most cases I would be against that. If parents, why not schools, relatives, even friends? I think you are a parent, but I am not totally sure. I think you know that at some point children are going to do what they are going to do. It's just a part of growing up. If a child goes to a party, gets drunked up then accidently kills someone driving home, should parents be held accountable for that? I am talking fairly normal teen-age stuff here.

I think a lot of kids don't have a good grasp of reality. I think a lot of kids in the adolescent phase of life seem to have minds still mentally stuck in the child phase. Mr. Rodgers told kids they are special. Good message, but at some point in a childs development, learning they aren't all that special is useful to learn.

I think it's a case by case basis. When it comes to owning forearms with a minor in the home, I think parents are only responsible if the firearm isn't secured. If a child has to sneak the keys to unlock your gun safe to get access to a firearm, I think you used reasonable caution. If you leave the gun laying in your night stand drawer, not so much. If you bought your 15 year old a semi automatic pistol and allowed him to keep the gun and the ammo in his room, you certainly were a contributing factor to what transpires afterwords. I don't know the details of this case. These are just examples.

This is the only weapon the government should literally give every American at birth. An Apache. I would fully support this

If we want society to follow rules... we need to enforce and severely punish those who have broken laws.

We could also do public video broadcasts of disembowelment without medication for things like:
Murder, rape, illegally possessing a firearm (convicted criminals who are not allowed to own one), being in a gang, fraud, theft, child abduction, treason, embezzlement, significant drug posession etc

I guarantee crime would decrease 99%

Then we as a society would be no less savage and monstrous than the criminals themselves.

Reasonable caution means keeping the keys/combination to the gun safe secured as well. It does no good to have a gun in the safe if the minor has access to the safe.

Confused morals?
You stand for ripping children from the womb, killing Millions of them.

Fortunately our Constitution/BoR bans cruel and unusual punishment.

cruel and unusual is subjective.

Opinions can change about society after you have had 5 out of 6 of these things happen to you...

home invasion by gang members, your car stolen from you, being held at gunpoint by a criminal, you or a loved one been raped, family members been murdered, and or had a child taken from you.

The police don't come fast enough.

I stand for women having a choice. On a personal level I oppose abortion. Get your facts straight for a change.

That's why I advocate people have firearms to protect themselves.

The punishment you suggested earlier is not subjective. It is cruel and unusual punishment by any objective train of thought.

You are the last person in the world that should be preaching political morals. Your vile brand of politics are destroying the county. Your twisting of words is just a pathetic attempt to seem normal, but you are not normal. You saw your leader incite an attack on our democracy, and you saw him divide the country again and again. You saw the racism, bigotry, white supremacy, and criminal behavior of Trump and Trump sycophants. Not only that, but you saw all of this, and you said or did nothing to stop it… NOPE, you joined in the denying, lying, and pretending it never happened in an effort to allow it all to continue… Your side would sell out every American value, INCLUDING MORALITY, just so you can continue to act like preposterous idiots.

So we are on the same page... I do agree that it is cruel and unusual and shouldn't be allowed.

I do also see that there is a reason that public executions worked so well. Criminals are less likely to commit crimes when they are executed.

I guess that still allows for firing squads on national television

A fetus is not a person according to the law, but the hoopleheads have all decided each cell is an individual life. Don't cut your fingernails! SMH.

Meanwhile, the same “PRO LIFE” rhetoric only applies to the unborn. All of you pro lifers, at least the noisy nonsensical ones, will let kids that made it to actual life starve, be sick, be mistreated, be traumatized by cops, etc. And don't get me started on how you intend to keep them poor and just want to plug them into the corporate “wage slavery” system. So, you can shove your negativism for whatever the left does, because the Trumpian right's opinions stopped mattering on January 6th, and will remain unimportant until you somehow redeem yourselves.

This is about guns - right?

I don't care if your closets are overflowing with guns.

I want them no where near a school.

This is not difficult. If blows my mind how we can nonchalant what is most important.

School shootings happen because we allow it to happen. We poison the air and water because we allow it.

Yet some wanna be dictator wants to overthrow the rule of the land. And nut jobs storm the capitol.

How about standing up and not allowing a Sandy Hook incident to ever happen again.

Guns are the symptom and not the cure to the school shootings. What has changed in our society that is causing children not to care about others? To actually want to kill other people? I went to school in the 1980's. In those days people had gun racks in their trucks. It was very common to walk thru the school parking lot and see quite a few trucks with shot guns and rifles in those gun racked trucks. No body batted an eye or thought anything about those guns. I had a class demonstration where I took my pump shot gun to school and dissembled it and then reassembled it to the class explaining what each part was and how to properly clean each part. I walked from my truck, thru the hallway, and into the classroom with the gun. No one cared. Why? Never in a million years would we have ever thought about using those guns against fellow classmates. If we had a disagreement with each other we usually settled the issue by throwing hands somewhere. Then the disagreement was over. In 1999, when I first heard what had happened in Columbine I thought what would have happened if something like that took place in my high school when we were in school. I even brought that up to other classmates. We all came to the same conclusion. There would have been classmates going to their trucks getting their guns and protecting others.

The problem with gun control is when you eliminate guns. You are only eliminating guns from the honest citizens. Criminals will still find away to get their hands on guns. Honest people use guns for protection. That is why gun control does not work. I know the government wants to control everything. They can't. Actually, they have made a mess out of everything. When you take God out of something, like it or not something else will take his spot. Something darker and more evil. That is where the problem lies. When you have respect for God you respect other people. Why, we are all created in his image, he gives people hope when society says there is no hope. Take hope and respect away from people and you get school shootings.

I don't give a damn about guns.

Frankly, I don't care about your religious beliefs.

I don't want kids shot in school.

God has nothing to do with that. It is up to us.

Kids taking a gun to school can be stopped. It happens because it has been done. Copy cat kids see it was done. And it somehows gives them the idea that in some sick way it validates who they are. Like a martyr.

Kids will always make poor decisions. They will commit crimes and suicide.

When you close all ways to allow a gun in a school. They may turn to someone for help instead.

Nobody wants these tragic murders. Yet, the government and we the people are letting it happen.

Is it? or is it about who can get a gun?

I mean the topic.

This is not about abortion or God.

It is about guns.

How about starting with stopping guns from getting into schools. People will have guns. Kids will find a way to get a gun.

People will continue to kill each other in homes and on the streets.

We can stop guns from getting into schools.

Common sense gun laws do not "eliminate guns". They just ask for common sense measures in who and how they're purchased and handled. Gun training such as states that have a requirement like CCW training for people who carry guns and maybe even a cooling off period of three to five days before getting the gun you purchase so when people get mad and wish to act out upon first purchasing a gun there is a period of time designated to allow that person to cool down and gain perspective before putting a firearm in his hand make sense. It doesn't eliminate guns, prevent anyone from purchasing a gun or even carrying a gun.

We've been hearing about "eliminating guns" for decades now as a fear tactic. Yet nobody has or is suggesting anyone take or eliminate guns. Sure you may find some of the fringe of the left wing that advocate that, but it's not something that has ever been a threat to actually happen or any serious proposal to enact. But obviously that nonsensical idea of eliminating guns is something they have gotten you to seriously consider a possibility.


So your answer is to cram God down everyone's throat and that will make everything all better?

I hate to break it to you, but a lot of very fine people are not religious, many of them don't believe in God and are simply kind people.

Many people who have become lifetime criminals, charlatans, murderers, rapists and pedophiles have claimed to be Christians and attended Church regularly.

Joel Osteen claims to be Christian and people buy it… literally sending him their hard earned money thinking it’ll get them closer to God. ROTFLMAO… P.T. Barnum was right.

And then he takes that money and stuffs in a wall behind a toilet...LOL

I'm no fan of these televangilists..

When you have the flu, fever is a symptom, yet people still take Tylenol

We (you and I and many on here) understand that common sense gun laws (in theory) won't impact the responsible gun owner much, if at all. But while Republicans might not have the balls to push common sense gun laws, Democrats similarly lack the brains. You have people like Beto who are routinely 'handed the mic' for the liberal stance on gun ownership.

I have pretty much agreed with the fact that if you let the extremist wing of either party dictate any of this nobody will win. What I will say is that the extremist wing of the Republican party is already in full swing in doing this. CCW permit laws have been overturned in several states over the past few years. Sadly, "who has been handed the mic" is the example they use to portray the mainstream democrat.

An example of how much folly that is was when Beto ran for the Democratic nomination for president in 2020 he barely registered in votes and was one of the first to drop out of the race.

It also shoots the theory about how they claim democrats vote for people who want to give them the most free stuff. Yang wanted to give every America a check for $1000 a month and he garnered almost zero support as well.

Nobody should be out there preaching to get rid of all guns, that will NEVER happen in our country. But just a few simple laws could completely change the landscape. Put a breakneck financial and criminal onus on gun owners, forcing proper storage and security on guns. Failure needs to result in more than a fine. If somebody steals your guns, that were properly stored and secured, you are safe. But if your kid takes your gun and kills somebody, you get financially slammed and some harsh criminal penalties if the gun was improperly stored, or you allowed access to another that misuses or stores the gun inappropriately. Make it hurt so bad, that people MUST obey or risk a huge hit. So, the first law would be a personal responsibility law… back in the day, people just practiced this without needing to be told; today we are too stupid.

The second law should make all unprovoked mass shootings domestic terrorism with life/death sentences and no parole. A provoked mass shooting would be a self-defense or defense of others situation where more than one assailant was shot. This law should be written to make conviction quick. If you took the gun to the scene, you're hit. If you fired, you're hit. If you killed somebody, you're done. Murder with any kind of weapon (not unarmed brawling), should carry EXTRA harsh sentences. Also included should be a well-thought-out national policy on bullying and school violence of any kind. Make kids understand that this stuff will no longer be tolerated even a bit. I don't endorse public hangings, but they do serve to prove that harsh legal sentences do deter criminal acts. Give some kid 5-10 for taking a gun to school OR the death penalty for a mass shooting… Give the parents almost the same… Make a few examples and things will change fast.

The third law I would enact is a law that requires homeowners/renters insurance to cover one hand gun and one long gun per adult under a policy. Any more guns than that would require a collector's policy for weapons. No insurance at anytime on a gun should be criminal, and insurance should have to financially compensate victims in any illegal shooting incident. (Not self-defense.) Compensation should be big and uncapped (unlike auto). This could achieve two things, victims or their families/communities would be compensated for their loss, and it would allow insurance companies to impose gun controls on storage, handling, and personal responsibility. They could even have free online video and written gun safety classes/training. Also, by making uninsured guns illegal, when illegal guns are found they could be seized and the owners or people in possession prosecuted. Finally, a third party responsible gun owner registration via insurance policies could go a long way toward solving crimes and enforcing the laws, while still offering a privacy buffer if police could only access the information needed per case with a warrant to search the data.

Not perfect, but hunting and home defense would be protected, personal responsibility and liability addressed, criminal process established, and something rather than nothing being done to protect our kids and public spaces.

No.

The right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.


INFRINGED- act so as to limit or undermine (something); encroach on.
"his legal rights were being infringed"

https://www.merriam-webster.com › dictionary › infringe

You would be able to own a gun. And again, your opinions don't matter. Trumpians like you shouldn't be allowed near guns. You've proved you can't be trusted.

Extremes of either party just don't work for the majority of American Citizens.. Getting the extremes to Shut up and Grow up is the tough part.

The only way it works is if the centrists of both parties will stand up to them... Ain't gonna happen... But it's a thought

Bull crap. The centrist establishment pushes that label on progressives, and since we are now the majority of the democratic big tent, you want to push us into a box? NOPE.

I can see it for the wing-nuts, but the center is part of the problem from my stance. When we shifted from governing to posturing and doing jack, those centrist Dems didn't say or do a thing. Joe Manchin is a centrist Dem by label… that should tell you all you need to know. This is a point in time when the right is off the rails and we either move the center left or we WILL be a fascist country with an authoritarian government. So pushing a “Centrist Government” now is a horrible idea, IMHO.

But I do understand that we need to work together again at some point, and I'm all for that ONCE the January 6th traitors have been hung. I'm all for working with conservatives that have left the current Republican Party. But until we've wiped Trumpist fascism out of our mainstream political discourse, we must control the direction of the country. Then we can talk about re-establishing a new center and pushing joint centrist governing. I don't think you guys understand where we are… If Trump were to win again, progressives and the far left will NEVER accept it as a legit election. Trump and minions are actively trying to subvert the upcoming 2022 and 2024, still muddying waters at every turn, and deliberately undermining trust in our elections, legal system, and government as a whole. The severity of the corruption we know about (which I think is just scratching the surface), is enough to make sure they never take power again.

The right is probably going to feel the same if the Dem wins (can't imagine it will be Biden or Harris), because a very large part of them still think Trumps big lie is true. So, rather than put the establishment status quo pushing centrist Dems back in to allow the right to do whatever while they do nothing but line their own pockets is just CRAZY TALK.

And all these non-Trumpian Republicans saying things like “He will never win the nomination again” are either lying to themselves or you, guilty of wishful thinking, or completely out of touch with their own party. And none of those things should sound good to the left, NONE. We just can't risk it.

Also, we don't need another 40 years of economic sellouts and middle class impoverishment.

No no bull.. WE are accomplishing NOTHING with the extremes fighting all the time.. We need to find common ground. The center is where you need to start to find that ground.

There's no talking to him. He keeps claiming progressives are the majority of Democrats but they haven't won a single nomination to represent the party in a presidential election yet.

To be fair, the only reason Bernie Sanders didn't win the nomination in 2016 is because the DNC did some really shady business to help Hillary win.

I am fully convinced that if the RNC had its way in 2016 and did the same shady business, Trump would not have won the nomination either.

Then the same thing must have happened in 2020 too. Because he couldn't win then either. I attribute your theory much like I do the stolen election theory. Everyone who loses has to have a conspiracy of why it is someone elses fault that it happened to them these days. From Bernie supporters to Trump supporters. It's as though many have forgotten how to step up to the plate and just say, "We lost".

The old establishment line… "We cheat like hell, so we're in charge". No damn different than the current iteration of Republicans. Don't be fooled by that.

Believe what you want. The rest of the world knows the truth because we have eyes and weren't blinded by the lies. You know damn well they cheated Bernie. You were one of the loudest criers when it looked like Bernie would win. I saw you call him a socialist, just like Trump did. You said a lot of the same crap, hoping somebody would stop him. And don't even try to deny it.

But you are right, the establishment won. Does that make you happy? The centrist that are killing everything good that Biden wanted to do… That's who you are or who you support. Talk about do nothing Dems and status quo…

Which one are you talking about? Trump being cheated or Bernie being cheated? It's hard to tell the difference since Trumpians and Bernieites keep telling the same story. .

You seem to have forgotten that even Bernie labels himself a socialist. You better hurry up and write him an email about that and tell him to stop it!

Ummm, you are aware that it's known the DNC was basically being funded by the Clinton campaign? Also, Clinton exercised an unusually high level of control prior to her nomination... up to and including the "fix this" email to one of the DNC leaders regarding Bernie gaining momentum in 2016.

Bernie calls himself a democratic socialist (a modern term with good connotation), but you called him a socialist (with bad connotation) and even used the republican's Venezuela comparison. Don't try to whitewash your BS with me, I was there. So, there is no argument to be had here. No rehashing or rewriting the story, just facts.

Point being, what happened in 2020? Who are people going to blame for that one? Same guy running against moderate candidates and a moderate won.... again. If he couldn't win again in 2020 why do people claim he would have won in 2016? You can say people interfered if you like and it appears they did. But if he couldn't win again in 2020, how can you attribute his loss in 2016 to that interference? I think it's easy to make that accusation if one chooses to but that will never explain the second time.

It would seem that if the things we've seen stated were true......

1. He was cheated in 2016 or he would have won the nomination.

2. The progressive movement has grown stronger and the majority of democrats are now progressives.

..... then Bernie should have been a slam dunk in 2020. That never happened.

Putting any label on yourself that uses the word socialist in it is placing a target on your back. It's stupid as hell. You know as well as I do trying to explain your way around that is political suicide. It was in 2016 and again in 2020.

On one hand you claim Trump voters are ignorant and then on the other hand you claim Republicans will listen to the nuances between socialist and democratic socialist. You can't have it both ways.

The cards were absolutely stacked against him by his own party in 2016. That has no bearing on 2020. Different opponents (1 very similar to himself in many ways) vs really just 1 opponent (an extremely unlikeable one at that).

If those two statements are true in conjunction with one another, they are totally relevant. Biden has been a life long moderate. Bernie is a far left progressive. If in fact progressives are the majority in the party, Biden would never have been their choice and Bernie would have won the primary.

The DNC and Hillary's acolytes cheated Bernie in 2016. The establishment conspired to consolidate the centrist vote in the primaries when it looked like a lay down for Bernie in 2020. First they negotiated with Pete, Amy, and others to withdraw from the race. Then marched Jim Clyburn out to appeal to the southern black vote at the 11th hour. Biden was in 5th place and all but out… the next week he was the presumptive nominee on all MSM and moderate outlets. Fifth to first without doing or saying a damn thing... but nobody cheated. GMAB. I don't care that your side of the party got its way AGAIN, but nobody cheated… right.

I'm tired of beating this dead horse with you. Just going to watch centrist kill or finish gutting the BBB bill because they are DINO republicans. Then wait for the Trumpism threat to diminish, so progressives can finally give the center what they want, a party without us.

You've got more excuses than a Trump supporter. Your wish would be to not pass the BBB bill and get nothing rather than compromise and get something. And you claim Republicans are obstructionists.

News flash. You need enough votes to pass anything. No compromise means you get nothing.

And they QUIT two days before Super Tuesday! Not wasting my time searching, but didn't Obama have a little weekend sit-down with those clowns ahead of them dropping out? What a joke, after the months and months of campaigning, they drop out ahead of the primary's biggest day. That pretty much says it all... stop Bernie at all cost for the "greater good" of the party.