Trump’s abortion statement angers conservatives and gives the Biden campaign a new target

BY STEVE PEOPLES
Updated 4:09 PM EDT, April 8, 2024
link


NEW YORK (AP) — Donald Trump still says he’s proud that the Supreme Court justices he nominated overturned Roe v. Wade. Yet he again on Monday avoided tough questions about abortion, including whether he would support a national abortion ban should he return to the White House.

The presumptive Republican presidential nominee tried to put to rest an issue widely seen as a general election liability. Instead, his video statement exposed the tough road ahead and inflamed leaders on both sides of the issue.

Religious conservatives said they were deeply disappointed. Progressives said he was lying. And there’s every indication that abortion will define the 2024 election no matter what Trump does or says — in large part because Republicans in Congress and in statehouses across the country continue to fight for new restrictions.

Here are some takeaways exploring the complicated politics of Trump’s latest statement.


SEARCHING FOR POLITICAL SAFE GROUND
For Trump, fights over abortion, like any other major issue, have always been about winning. And so it should not be a surprise that on Monday he avoided endorsing a ban.

Trump has long tried to steer clear from supporting national restrictions that could be a political disaster for Republicans struggling to win back key groups — especially suburban women — who turned their backs on the GOP in recent years.

Trump remains eager to take credit for the reversal of Roe v. Wade. He did so again in Monday’s video posted to his social media site. But even at the state level, abortion bans enacted after Roe was overturned have been deeply unpopular.

So, Trump simply tried to punt abortion back to the states.

“The states will determine by vote or legislation or perhaps both. And whatever they decide must be the law of the land,” Trump said of abortion rights. “Now, it’s up to the states to do the right thing.”

Religious conservatives, of course, have been fighting against abortion rights for decades on the grounds that abortion should be stopped at all costs — even if they pay a price at the ballot box.


But Trump wants to win in 2024. And in his statement, he made clear that he’s trying to make the best of a bad political situation for him and his party.

“We must win,” he said. “We have to win.”

A TEST FOR TRUMP’S BASE
The outrage from Democrats was expected. The fierce infighting among Trump’s GOP was not.

“We are deeply disappointed in President Trump’s position,” said Marjorie Dannenfelser, the president of the anti-abortion Susan B. Anthony Pro-Life America.

Former Vice President Mike Pence, who has declined to endorse his former running mate this year, put it this way: “President Trump’s retreat on the Right to Life is a slap in the face to the millions of pro-life Americans.”

On social media, some conservatives latched onto Trump’s reference to the term “abortion rights,” arguing that such rights do not exist. Even Sen. Lindsey Graham, R-S.C., a vocal Trump ally, said on X that he “respectfully” disagrees with Trump’s new position.

As he often does, Trump went after his critics by name.


“Lindsey, Marjorie, and others fought for years, unsuccessfully, until I came along and got the job done. Then they were gone, never to be heard from again, until now,” Trump said on social media. He added, “The Democrats are thrilled with Lindsey, because they want this Issue to simmer for as long a period of time as possible.”

Despite the infighting, Trump’s team is making the calculation that his evangelical base, among the most loyal elements in his coalition, will have his back when it matters most. And recent history suggests he’s probably right.

Dannenfelser and others have been pushing Trump to embrace a national abortion ban for several months. Trump, of course, has not. And still, Trump cruised to an easy victory in the GOP primary.

He even won the Iowa caucuses, historically ruled by religious conservatives, by 30 points.

If his waffling on abortion didn’t hurt him with the GOP base in the primary, it’s hard to see them turning against him this fall.

BIDEN’S REELECTION MOBILIZES
Democrats would have had more ammunition this November if Trump had publicly embraced a national abortion plan on Monday. But Biden’s party still has plenty to work with.


Even in Monday’s statement, Trump said he was “proudly responsible” for the Roe reversal.

Within hours, the Biden campaign released a scathing new advertisement featuring a woman who nearly died after being denied medical care due to restrictive abortion laws enacted after Roe was overturned.

“Donald Trump did this,” the ad states as the Texas woman cries in the background.

Prominent pro-choice groups lashed out as well, with many arguing that Trump cannot be trusted after his leading role in overturning abortion rights. Biden issued a seven-paragraph statement labeling Trump singularly “responsible for creating the cruelty and the chaos that has enveloped America” since Roe was overturned.


“Trump is scrambling,” the Democrat said. “He’s worried that since he’s the one responsible for overturning Roe the voters will hold him accountable in 2024. Well, I have news for Donald. They will.”

National Democrats intend to blame Trump not just for abortion bans in conservative-led states but for the restriction of fertility treatments in Alabama after the state Supreme Court ruled that embryos should be considered children and awarded legal protections.

Biden’s campaign announced Sunday that it would hold campaign events featuring two women, one from Texas and the other from Louisiana, affected by restrictive abortion laws enacted by Republicans.

Meanwhile, Republicans simply don’t have an effective counterargument.

In his video, Trump repeated the GOP’s longstanding argument that it is Democrats, not Republicans, who are extreme on abortion because they support abortion rights with no restrictions. Such arguments, while debatable, have not been effective over the last two years. Conservatives have suffered stinging defeats in elections dominated by the abortion-rights debate from Kentucky to Ohio to Michigan.

BIG QUESTIONS REMAIN
Trump on Monday talked in more substance than we’re used to. But he hardly put the issue to rest.

Trump will almost certainly continue to engage with the religious conservatives who condemned his position. Perhaps more importantly, he’ll also be asked to clarify key questions that he avoided altogether.

Trump did not explicitly state whether, if elected again, he would or would not sign a national abortion ban should it reach his desk.

While it’s unlikely such a proposal could meet a 60-vote Senate threshold, a majority of House Republicans have endorsed a national abortion ban as part of a budget proposal unveiled this spring by the Republican Study Committee.

At the same time, Trump did not outline his position on a Florida ballot measure that would preserve abortion rights in the state constitution if approved in November. Trump, of course, is a Florida resident who will have an opportunity to cast a vote for or against the proposal.

A new Florida law signed by Republican Gov. Ron DeSantis will soon take effect banning abortions at six weeks of pregnancy, which is before many women realize they’re pregnant. Trump promised last week that he would issue the statement he gave Monday after being asked about the state law.

Also left unanswered: Whether Trump supports access to the FDA-approved abortion medication mifepristone, which is widely available through the mail.

STILL A DEFINING ISSUE
Whether Trump’s GOP likes it or not, abortion will be a defining issue for many voters when they decide the presidency this fall.

The Roe reversal is still fresh for many voters who have only just begun to grapple with Republican-backed abortion restrictions in their states. At the same time, voters in several states are expected to decide whether to enshrine abortion rights into state law this November.

For now, it’s not clear exactly how many states will vote on abortion ballot measures. In some, the question is whether amendment supporters can get enough valid signatures. In others, it’s up to the legislature. And there’s legal wrangling in the process in some states.

So far, abortion rights are definitely on the ballot in Florida, Maryland and New York. And efforts are also underway to do the same in Arizona, Arkansas, Colorado, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada and South Dakota.

Fact check: Trump makes wildly inaccurate claim that ‘all legal scholars’ on ‘both sides’ wanted Roe overturned


By Daniel Dale, CNN
4 minute read
Published 1:12 PM EDT, Mon April 8, 2024
link


Washington
CNN
—
Former President Donald Trump has accurately boasted that he played a central role in getting the Supreme Court to overturn the 1973 Roe v. Wade decision that guaranteed abortion rights across the country. But he keeps making wildly inaccurate claims that the court’s 2022 decision to rescind Roe had universal support.

In a video statement on abortion policy he posted on social media Monday, Trump said: “I was proudly the person responsible for the ending of something that all legal scholars, both sides, wanted and, in fact, demanded be ended: Roe v. Wade. They wanted it ended.” Later in his statement, Trump said that since “we have abortion where everybody wanted it from a legal standpoint,” states are free to determine their own abortion laws.

It wasn’t clear there whether Trump was using “everybody” to refer to legal scholars in particular or the American public. But in previous statements this year, he has broadly claimed that “everybody,” period, agreed the power to determine abortion law should be returned to individual states.

Facts First: Trump’s claim that “all legal scholars” wanted Roe overturned is not even close to true; many wanted Roe preserved, as several legal scholars reiterated in Monday comments to CNN. And Trump’s broader claims that “everybody” wanted states to be granted the power to determine abortion law are also false; opinion polls have consistently showed a large majority of Americans did not want Roe terminated.

Many legal scholars wanted Roe preserved

It’s not clear what percentage of “legal scholars” wanted Roe v. Wade overturned. Some of them certainly did.

But Trump, the presumptive Republican presidential nominee, claimed that “all” of them wanted Roe gone. A simple Google search shows that is untrue.

“Any claim that all legal scholars wanted Roe overturned is mind-numbingly false,” Rutgers Law School professor Kimberly Mutcherson, a legal scholar who supported the preservation of Roe, said Monday.

“Donald Trump’s claim is flatly incorrect,” said another legal scholar who did not want Roe overturned, Maya Manian, an American University law professor and faculty director of the university’s Health Law and Policy Program.

“Please make clear that the facts are the opposite of Trump’s claims,” said Yale Law School professor Reva Siegel, yet another legal scholar who wanted Roe preserved.

Trump’s claim is “obviously not” true, said Mary Ziegler, a law professor at the University of California, Davis who is an expert on the history of the US abortion debate. Ziegler, who also did not want Roe overturned, said in a Monday interview: “Most legal scholars probably track most Americans who didn’t want to overturn Roe. … It wasn’t as if legal scholars were somehow outliers.”

It is true that some legal scholars who support abortion rights wished that Roe had been written differently; the late liberal Supreme Court Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg was one of them. But Ziegler noted that although “there was a cottage industry of legal scholars kind of rewriting Roe – ‘what Roe should’ve said’ – that isn’t saying Roe should’ve been overturned. Those are very different things.”

Mutcherson said in an email: “Many of us have argued for decades that Roe was too narrow, and became even more so after Casey,” a 1992 Supreme Court decision on abortion rights, “so the call was to strengthen Roe, certainly not to overturn it and give states the power to deprive women of such a basic right of control over their bodies and futures.”

Manian said in an email: “Criticism of Roe from legal scholars supporting reproductive justice focused on expanding Roe’s protections, not overturning Roe. Reproductive justice scholars called for overturning the case upholding the Hyde Amendment (Harris v. McRae), which was an extremely narrow reading of Roe and narrow approach to constitutional protection for access to abortion. In other words, critics of Roe from the progressive side argued for expanding abortion rights beyond the floor set by the decision, not for overturning and eviscerating Roe.”

Most Americans wanted Roe preserved

Trump has gone well beyond claims about “legal scholars” supposedly being united in support for the decision to overturn Roe. He has repeatedly claimed that “everybody” agreed the matter of abortion law should be left up to each state, suggesting he was referring to the views of the American public.

In fact, poll after poll has shown that most Americans – two-thirds or nearly two-thirds of respondents in multiple polls – wish Roe would have been preserved.

For example, a CNN poll conducted by SSRS in July 2023 found 64% of adults opposed the Supreme Court’s decision to overturn Roe; that result was nearly identical to the result of a CNN poll conducted by SSRS in July 2022, the month after the decision. Similarly, a Marquette Law School poll in February 2024 found 67% of adults opposed the decision that overturned Roe.

A NBC News poll in June 2023 found 61% opposition among registered voters to the decision that overturned Roe. A Gallup poll in May 2023 found 61% of adults called the decision a bad thing.

You mean he was lying!?

In all seriousness the thing that disturbed me most was the part where he said that democrats were for abortion up to the time of birth and after the birth as well...

Yeah loony QAnon propaganda...

I would like to know where that came from... sheesh, in all seriousness, the viability (20-24 weeks) has been the standard.

Trump's ridiculous lies concerning abortion are just going to dig the hole deeper...now he's got the GOPs most radical supporters turning against him because he refused tell them what they wanted to hear...proclaiming the obvious, the GOPs most radical voters want a nationwide ban on abortion and more.

...but it's obvious, based on recent election results, a vast majority of women are going to vote to restore their power over the abortion issue by voting against the politicians who took their rights away. That's the way a democracy is supposed to work and watching the process play out is a thing of beauty, imo.

Women have had to learn the hard way...if Trumps lips are moving, HE'S LYING...Republican men don't seem to care if Trump is a known liar.

And yet it continues................

Arizona Supreme Court rules all elective abortions are now 'illegal', doctors on notice

The ruling says all elective abortions in Arizona are "illegal." Gov. Katie Hobbs demanded legislators to repeal the near-total abortion ban.

PHOENIX — The Arizona Supreme Court ruled Tuesday that all doctors in the state should be on notice that "all abortions, except those necessary to save a woman’s life, are illegal."

In the lengthy ruling released Tuesday, the court ruled that "criminal and regulatory sanctions may apply to abortions performed after fifteen weeks’ gestation." The decision essentially allows an abortion law dating back to the Civil War to remain in effect.

"To date, our legislature has never affirmatively created a right to, or independently authorized, elective abortion. We defer, as we are constitutionally obligated to do, to the legislature’s judgment, which is accountable to, and thus reflects, the mutable will of our citizens," the ruling states.

The justices argued that the old, pre-statehood law can stand because the "legislature has demonstrated its consistent design to restrict elective abortion to the degree permitted by the Supremacy Clause and an unwavering intent since 1864 to proscribe elective abortions absent a federal constitutional right."

The justices allowed for 14 days to pass before the near-total abortion ban can be enforced.

Gov. Katie Hobbs called upon the Republican-controlled Legislature to repeal the 1864 abortion law before it takes effect again in Arizona.

Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes, a Democrat, quickly condemned the court's decision in the following statement:

The decision made by the Arizona Supreme Court today is unconscionable and an affront to freedom. Make no mistake, by effectively striking down a law passed this century and replacing it with one from 160 years ago, the Court has risked the health and lives of Arizonans.

Today's decision to reimpose a law from a time when Arizona wasn't a state, the Civil War was raging, and women couldn't even vote will go down in history as a stain on our state. This is far from the end of the debate on reproductive freedom, and I look forward to the people of Arizona having their say in the matter. And let me be completely clear, as long as I am Attorney General, no woman or doctor will be prosecuted under this draconian law in this state.

On the other side of the debate, Arizona Right to Life celebrated the court's ruling.

"We are delighted that the court recognized and upheld Arizona's long history of protecting unborn babies and their mothers," the organization said.

This is a developing story. We will update this story as more information becomes available.

Battle over abortion in Arizona

The battle over whether women in Arizona have the right to get an abortion or not began back in June 2022 when the U.S. Supreme Court overturned the landmark Roe v. Wade case and made abortion rights a state issue.

In late 2022, a state appeals court ruled that abortion was legal in Arizona up to the 15th week of pregnancy, unless the abortion is needed to save the mother's life, in a case brought by Planned Parenthood of Arizona. That decision was based on a bill passed less than three months before Roe v. Wade was overturned.

In May 2023, the Arizona Supreme Court was briefed on a petition to review that ruling. In August 2023, they decided to hear the case.

The appeal was filed by the Christian law firm Alliance Defending Freedom on behalf of Dr. Eric Hazelrigg, an obstetrician and medical director of Choices Pregnancy Center in Arizona.

ADF lawyers and other abortion opponents argue that a 160-year-old near-total ban on abortion, which was enacted before Arizona was a state, should be state law.

Under that ban, which was passed in 1864, doctors would face two to five years in prison if they performed an abortion. The only exception would be to save the mother's life. This law has remained in Arizona's statutes but has been inactive due to an injunction.

Reproductive rights advocates in Arizona have said they would be satisfied with the 15-week abortion ban remaining, as it would put an end to uncertainty among patients and health care providers.

The Arizona Supreme Court heard arguments over whether the 1864 near-total abortion ban should become state law or made moot on Dec. 12, 2023.

The 15-week ban on abortion remained in effect after Arizona's Supreme Court justices heard the arguments.

Over the past five months since the arguments, reproductive rights have been a hot topic in Arizona.

Vice President Kamala Harris visited Arizona in March and spoke at a rally to support reproductive freedoms.

Later that month, Arizona state Senator Eva Burch (D-District 9) went public with her plan to get an abortion on the Senate floor. She later sat down with 12News Political Insider Brahm Resnik to discuss why she not only had the abortion but went public with it.

Arizona also received a visit from Gov. Gretchen Whitmer (D-Michigan) this past week. She spoke to reproductive rights supporters at a coffee house in downtown Phoenix.
The battle over abortion in Arizona set to continue

Even with Arizona's Supreme Court issuing its ruling on Tuesday, reproductive rights are set to continue to be a hot topic through Election Day.

Arizona is one of 11 states that could see an abortion rights initiative on the ballot this November.

The Arizona for Abortion Access Act would create an amendment to the state constitution that would guarantee the right to an abortion in the state.

The campaign to put this initiative on the ballot has already gathered more than 500,000 signatures. The threshold to make it on the ballot is about 384,000. However, Arizona for Abortion Access, the group behind the initiative, says they hope to have about 800,000 signatures by the July 3 deadline for turning them in.

This is so they have a cushion in case some of the signatures are ruled to be invalid.

An organization called It Goes Too Far is running a "Decline to Sign" campaign aimed at thwarting signature gatherers. They are also planning a fall campaign to defeat the initiative if it makes it onto the ballot.

https://www.12news.com/article/news.../75-ec6bfded-b292-4238-a62c-5901d5878a2d

I dare his supporters to fact check themselves. You'll find that he lied a bunch of times in this short video.

Since 1999 he has changed his stance on abortion more times than KFC has fried chicken.

Let the citizens of Arizona vote on the issue and while they are at it, they can cast a vote against those elected officials who are trying take their rights away.

The radical rwers might have bitten off more trouble than they ever realized. When the minority tries to take away a citizen's rights, that loss is felt across all political lines.

Another day, another lie.


Trump lied during his big abortion announcement and said Democrats want to be able to execute babies
Brent D. Griffiths Apr 8, 2024, 12:01 PM GMT-4


Former President Donald Trump lied on Monday and said that Democrats wanted babies "executed after birth," in a video that was supposed to unveil his views on the politically fraught issue of abortion.

"They support abortion up to and even beyond the ninth month," Trump said in a video posted on Truth Social. "The concept of having an abortion in the later months, and even execution after birth. That's exactly what it is — the baby is born, and the baby is executed after birth."

Trump's claim was part of an announcement that sought to finally establish his views on abortion amid a series of sometimes contradictory statements. He declined to support a nationwide abortion ban. The former president said that whatever individual states determined "must be the law of the land" but did not establish an explicit position on abortion-rights ballot initiatives pending in states throughout the country.

Related stories


A timeline of Trump's shifting stance on abortion


Trump's statement makes it clear he's more worried about Democrats than anti-abortion conservatives


Trump said abortion laws should be left to the states: 'It's all about will of the people'

As he has in the past, Trump argued that since Democrats articulate few limits they want to place on abortion, it means they want to allow abortions up until the point of birth or even after that. This "infanticide" argument has been part of the abortion debate for years.

The fact is that abortions beyond 21 weeks are rare, as multiple outlets and fact-checkers have confirmed. According to Centers for Disease Control and Prevention data from before the Supreme Court gutted Roe v. Wade, less than 1% of abortions were performed at 21 weeks or later in gestation. Doctors have said such abortions are performed for medical emergencies only.

The Biden White House has backed the Women's Health Protection Act, which, as Business Insider previously reported, did not allow for post-birth termination. The bill did allow for later abortions for "health" reasons, which anti-abortion groups have argued is too vague of a position and could allow for abortions for psychological or emotional reasons.

President Joe Biden, in a statement released by his campaign, said that Trump "more than anyone in America" was most responsible for the uncertainty around nationwide abortion rights following the Supreme Court's decision.

"Trump is scrambling," Biden said in a statement. "He's worried that since he's the one responsible for overturning Roe the voters will hold him accountable in 2024."

In his video statement, Trump expressed pride in his role of appointing three conservative Supreme Court justices who helped provide the majority that overturned Roe.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-democrats-execute-babies-abortion-views-biden-2024-4

In 2022 California had a bill that would decriminalize perinatal deaths. After some uproar, It was then amended. Yes, it is false to say that any state allows abortion after birth. But it is true they tried to allow abortions after birth. That means there are some people out there that support this sort of thing.

I will just say this. There is a huge difference between a perinatal death and an abortion… perinatal deaths are heartbreaking and something that no person should have to go through, there are so many issues and circumstances that surround the issue, no single law could possibly cover all the possibilities. That is part of the challenge that States that have banned abortion have gotten in disputes with doctors and women.

But for Trump to characterize is as democrats support abortion after birth is just another lie from the liar in chief.

Thanks for the clarification, I had no idea that was the underlying issue..

Here is an example of "The New GOP Play Book"...lie like hell about your position on abortion issues.


GOP Senate candidate Kari Lake bashes Arizona's new abortion ban. She praised it less than 2 years ago.

Story by bmetzger@insider.com (Bryan Metzger)
April 9, 2024link


A near-total abortion ban from 1864 will soon take effect in Arizona.

GOP Senate candidate Kari Lake bashed the law as "out of step with Arizonans."

But two years ago, she called the law "great" and said it could pave the way for other states.

Kari Lake, the Trump acolyte and Arizona GOP Senate candidate, says she does not support a near-total ban on abortion that's set to take effect soon in the crucial battleground state.

That law, more than 160 years old, was written when Arizona had not yet become a state and would outlaw abortion in all instances, except to save the life of the mother.

"I have traveled to every corner of this state on the campaign trail," Lake said in a statement on Tuesday. "I speak to more Arizonans than anyone and it is abundantly clear that the pre-statehood law is out of step with Arizonans."

Lake's statement came soon after the Arizona Supreme Court ruled that the 1864 law, which mandates two to five years in prison for anyone who aids in abortion, was enforceable. However, Arizona Attorney General Kris Mayes has said that she will not enforce the law, which she described as "draconian."

Arizona voters will also get to decide on the issue of abortion rights in a November referendum, and Democratic Gov. Katie Hobbs and the GOP-controlled state legislature could, in theory, seek to change the law.

Yet Lake's stated position on the territorial-era law is a significant reversal from 2022, when she was running for governor of Arizona.

In June of that year, Lake said in a local radio interview that she supported the 1864 law, according to Politifact.

"I'm incredibly thrilled that we are going to have a great law that's already on the books," Lake said in that interview, adding: "It will prohibit abortion in Arizona except to save the life of a mother. And I think we're going to be paving the way and setting course for other states to follow."

Lake's reversal comes as Republicans more broadly seek to reposition themselves on abortion, given the losses that the GOP has suffered in races and ballot measures across the country since the Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in 2022.

As she's mounted her Senate bid, Lake has sought to emphasize her status as a mother and said that she supports efforts to make motherhood easier, moving away from harsher anti-abortion rhetoric that she employed during her failed gubernatorial bid.

And on Monday, former President Donald Trump said that he believed abortion should be left to states to decide, the latest in a series of conflicting positions he's taken on abortion.

Lake is running against Democratic Rep. Ruben Gallego in a race that could determine control of the Senate. In a statement, Gallego also bashed the court's ruling while tying it to "extremist politicians like Kari Lake."

Lake isn't the only Republican who's seeking to distance themselves from the law.

Reps. Juan Ciscomani and Dave Schweikert, two Arizona Republicans who face competitive reelection races, also said that they do not support the law and called on Hobbs and the legislature to overturn it.

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Rep. David Schweikert
@RepDavid
I do not support today’s ruling from the AZ Supreme Court. This issue should be decided by Arizonans, not legislated from the bench. I encourage the state legislature to address this issue immediately.
3:18 PM · Apr 9, 2024

This is just another example of how far Republicans will go to win elections...just lie about their anti abortion position in an attempt to gain votes.

...Politicians lie to get votes? Say it ain't so. I'm shocked and appalled.

Yes, people will lie/cheat/steal for power. It's not anything new. Politics has mostly been a load of BS at the highest level for quite a while.

It's depressing that many current politicians aren't even good at deception and yet people still vote for them. Any more it seems voters are practically begging politicians to lie to them.

It's like people don't care about what actually happens as long as the "sweet, little lies" make them feel better.

bull...whether you want to admit or not, on the abortion issue, Republicans have taken their lying ways to a new level as Kari Lake just exhibited.

They just keep shooting trump in the foot.

Lol has a new meaning for trump, “Loss over loss”

j/c

What confuses me the most about this courts ruling is that the law they're using as precedent was not a law created by the state of Arizona. The law they used to decide the case was created during the civil war era well before Arizona ever became a state.

Good point, Pitt...Arizona is the 48th state and last of the contiguous states to be admitted to the Union, achieving statehood on February 14, 1912.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arizona

I'm not an attorney or even close to it. I just don't see how a court can claim that was the law of Arizona when there was no state of Arizona at the time the law was created. It's as if they were saying you have to overturn every law of a former territory which no longer exists after it becomes a state. But hey, we have a lot of crazy laws on the books already in many states.

The present Arizona Supreme Court is attempting to base their ruling on Arizona Territorial Law. I would think that the state of Arizona would challenge the present Arizona Supreme Court ruling noting that the Territorial Abortion Law was not written to apply to the "STATE" of Arizona.

In the meantime, Arizona citizens should petition the state to put the issue on the ballot so the people can vote on it.

I'm pretty sure they already have enough signatures to put it on the ballot...................

Arizona governor ‘confident’ voters will have chance to enshrine abortion rights in November

Arizona Gov. Katie Hobbs (D) said Tuesday that she’s confident voters will have the opportunity to enshrine abortion rights in November and reverse a decision from the state’s Supreme Court that makes virtually all abortions in the state illegal.

Hobbs joined CNN’s Anderson Cooper hours after the state’s highest court rejected arguments for a 15-week abortion ban and upheld a law from 1864, before Arizona was even a state.

“Arizonans are going to weigh in on this and enshrine abortion in our state’s constitution in November, and I am confident that, when given the opportunity, they will vote to protect abortion,” she said.

Hobbs said efforts to enshrine abortion access in the state have already surpassed the number of signatures to have ballot access in this year’s election and still have more months to gain support.

“This is a commonsense measure that is supported by the vast majority of Arizonans in terms of protecting access,” she said. “And you know, certainly it’s going to motivate voters in November.”

The Arizona Right to Abortion Initiative may appear on the state’s ballot this fall as a constitutional amendment. It would establish the fundamental right to abortion and says the state cannot interfere before the point of fetal viability, the point at which a fetus could survive outside the uterus.

The 4-2 decision Tuesday makes abortion almost entirely illegal in the state. It will make performing or helping a pregnant person obtain an abortion a felony punishable by two to five years in prison. The law will effectively close abortion clinics in the state, but Hobbs said it’s still unclear when that would be.

She’s called on the Republican-led legislature in the state to repeal the law immediately. She told Cooper that she’s concerned for the care of people from when the ruling is enforced until the election but will do everything in her power to help.

“Not only will Arizonans have the chance to weigh in on this ballot measure, but they’ll also have a chance to elect new legislators who will fight to protect their freedoms instead of taking them away.”

Hobbs has criticized Republican lawmakers in the state who have not taken her up on repealing the ban since she took office last year.

She has issued an executive order barring county attorneys from prosecuting women and doctors from performing abortions, which still stands. Attorney General Kris Mayes (D) said “no woman or doctor will be prosecuted” while she serves as attorney general.

https://thehill.com/homenews/state-...to-enshrine-abortion-rights-in-november/

...I'm not sure what you think I said, but it definitely feels like it is not what you thought.

I basically said, yes, they are lying, and they're doing a lousy job of it. Yet, some people are voting for them any way, and that sucks.

The other side lies, too, but at least they aren't blatant about it. Still kind of sucks.

Republicans have no one to blame but themselves. They just couldn't leave this issue alone.

...if only. The Republicans always find someone else to blame. lol

(So do the Democrats)

Yes, the Democrats keep blaming Republicans for trying to overturn our elections.

swish...obviously the radical right thought they could bully and BS women enough to get themselves re-elected. IMO, they grossly under estimated how women would react to having a 50yr right to abortion taken away by the minority.

The abortion issue affects ALL WOMEN, regardless of political party and it's going to take a few elections of voting out those responsible for overturning R v W. Only then will some of the slow learners on the radical rw realize just how powerful "the woman's vote is".

I disagree, and think "ALL WOMEN" is "ALL OF US"

Ok, I get that this has a more direct effect upon women, but any sensible person can figure out the personal consequences pretty easily.

Republicans are on the wrong side of this and it will get worse than better. This is a more significant issue than most other issues of the day, and I hope but do not expect a change from the Republicans. Trump's "live with it - it's the new law" did not help.

First, comes the medical reluctance of health care providers, the pregnancy horror stories (Texas, Ohio), then the mifepristone, then IVF, and IUD, and the birth control pill are in the eyesight of the GOP.

I suspect voting and state constitutional amendments are the path forward.

All of this could have been anticipated from the Dobbs decision, which was made in a vacuum. Elections have consequences, and so do Supreme Court decisions.

Maybe those who decided Roe vs Wade were not misguided as Alito would like you to believe. Yeah they made up rules in the absence of laws, but those rules appear to be a more thought out approach involving the consequences of making such a poor decision.

Next thing we know they’ll be bringing this law back.

1641
Laws support scalping and raping and enslaving Native women
Portrait of William Kieft
Portrait of William Kieft
The Dutch governor of Manhattan, Willem Kieft, offers the first bounty in North America for Indian scalps in 1641, just 21 years after the Puritans land at Plymouth Rock. The Massachusetts Bay Colony offers a bounty of $60 per Indian scalp and money for every Native prisoner sold into slavery. The governors of the colonies institute scalping as a method for one Indian tribe to eliminate another tribe, and to have colonists eliminate as many Indians as possible. Colonial men are allowed to rape and enslave any Native woman or child. Moreover, colonial law gives permission to “kill savage Indians on sight at will” (Oxendine, 2019). In an article for “The American Historical Review” in 2015, Benjamin Madley writes, “Policymakers offered bounties for Native American heads or scalps in at least twenty-three states of their colonial, territorial, or Mexican antecedents" ("Scalping in America," 2007).

We'll scalp you first.

Lol. Good luck cashing in a skin head.

These are the laws and policies brought from the “civilized” world, just so everyone is aware.

Yep, so civilized they brought their own labor force chained in the holds of ships. We are dancing madly backwards my friend.

These folks seem to think their opinions on the Arizona abortion issue represent the majority in Arizona...






Radical GOP lawmaker, Sen. Anthony Kern led the prayer circle, who were reported to be speaking in "tongues", over the Ariz. state seal in the Ariz. Capitol building.

Those participating did not realize that someone was recording their event.

Separation of Church and State Does Not Apply In Arizona's "State"

On the larger issue, what confuses me is there is verified proof that if you leave it to the people, they want the right to abortion. They want a Roe v Wade type of law in place. Every state that has had the opportunity to vote on it, even blood red Ohio, have passed it. Even with all the tricks and shananigans that Republicans pulled trying to stop that vote or make in unfair. It was still voted in.

It's the will of the people.. Even trump thinks ( or so he said) that it's about the will of the people yet Republicans keep trying to Stand in the way.

You'd think that if they want to win elections they'd get the message but NOPE.....

If it was left to evangelicals to govern we’d still be in the dark ages of feudal empires.

Arizona Republicans block attempt to repeal abortion ban

The Arizona Legislature devolved into shouts of "Shame! Shame!" on Wednesday as Republican lawmakers quickly shut down discussion on a proposed repeal of the state's newly revived 1864 law that criminalizes abortion throughout pregnancy unless a woman's life is at risk.

The state Supreme Court cleared the way on Tuesday for enforcement of the pre-statehood law.

Arizona abortion providers vowed Wednesday to continue service until they're forced to stop, possibly within weeks, and state Attorney General Kris Mayes said she "will not prosecute anyone under this draconian law."

State legislators convened as pressure mounted from Democrats and some Republicans, including former President Donald Trump, for them to intervene.

House Democrats and at least one Republican tried to open discussion on a repeal of the 1864 abortion ban, which holds no exceptions for rape or incest. GOP leaders, who command the majority, cut it off twice and quickly adjourned for the week. Outraged Democrats erupted in finger-waving chants of "Shame! Shame!"

Republican state Rep. Teresa Martinez, of Casa Grande, said there was no reason to rush the debate. She accused Democrats of "screaming at us and engaging in extremist and insurrectionist behavior on the House floor." The GOP-led Senate briefly convened without debate on abortion.

"We are navigating in extremely complex, emotional and important area of law and policy," said Martinez, the GOP House whip. "In my opinion, removing healthy babies from healthy mothers is not health care nor reproductive care. Pregnancy is not an illness. It should be celebrated. It is an abortion that terminates life."

Democratic legislators seized on national interest in the state's abortion ban.

"We've got the eyes of the world watching Arizona right now," said Democratic state Rep. Stephanie Stahl Hamilton, of Tucson. "We know that the Supreme Court decision yesterday is extreme. And we know that should the 1864 ban on abortion remain a law in Arizona, people will die."

Democratic Gov. Katie Hobbs called inaction on the proposed repeal unconscionable.

"Radical legislators protected a Civil War-era total abortion ban that jails doctors, strips women of our bodily autonomy and puts our lives at risk," she said.

According to AP VoteCast, 6 out of 10 Arizona voters in the 2022 midterm elections said they would favor guaranteeing legal abortion nationwide. The state recorded 11,530 abortions in 2022, the last data available, according to the Department of Health Services.

At Camelback Family Planning in Phoenix, where about one-fourth of Arizona abortions are performed, registered nurse Ashleigh Feiring said abortion services were still available and that staff hope emergency legislation will avoid interruptions or closure.

"Our plan is to stay open as long as possible," Feiring said. "Our clinic has been shut down twice in the last four years, but we've always resumed service."

At the same time, anti-abortion groups including SBA Pro-Life America urged Arizona residents to oppose a proposed ballot initiative aimed at placing abortion rights in Arizona's state constitution.

"They would wipe away all pro-life laws put in place by the Legislature, reflective of the will of the people," SBA President Marjorie Dannenfelser said in a statement.

Hobbs, however, predicted that outrage will motivate voters to enshrine abortion rights directly in state law.

"The fight is not over, for sure," she said.

Grace Harders drove around metro Phoenix on Wednesday looking for an opportunity to sign an abortion rights petition. She said she wouldn't know what to do if she had an unplanned pregnancy but knew she'd be scared.

"I'm a pro-choice person, and I want to ensure the right for all women," Harders said.

Abortion rights advocates said they've gathered more than 500,000 signatures — far above what they need to add a ballot question asking voters to approve a constitutional amendment protecting the right to abortion until viability, when a fetus could survive outside the womb.

Arriving for a campaign fundraiser in Atlanta, Trump said the Arizona court decision went too far and called on state lawmakers to change it even as he defended the U.S. Supreme Court's 2022 ruling overturning of Roe v. Wade.

"It's all about states' rights," the former president told supporters and journalists. "It'll be straightened out."

Since the U.S. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade in 2022, most Republican-controlled states have started enforcing new bans or restrictions, and most Democratic-dominated ones have sought to protect abortion access.

The Arizona ruling suggests doctors can be prosecuted for performing the procedure. The 1864 law carries a sentence of two to five years in prison for doctors or anyone else who assists in an abortion.

"Physicians are now on notice that all abortions, except those necessary to save a woman's life, are illegal," the Arizona Supreme Court said in its decision, adding that additional criminal and regulatory sanctions may apply to abortions performed after 15 weeks, the state's previous time limit for the procedure.

Beyond that, the court ruling also ignited concern that enforcement might interfere with handling miscarriages.

Enforcing the 1864 law won't begin for at least two weeks. However, plaintiffs in the case — including Planned Parenthood — said the delay could last up to two months, based on an agreement reached in a related case.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/arizona-republicans-abortion-ban-1864-block-repeal/

Just who is going to believe or trust "a word" Trump or the GOP have to say on the abortion rights issue, ever again..?

Trump says the "Arizona Supreme Court went too far" and proclaims that the abortion issue "will get worked out"... then Trump releases ads "bragging about how he ending roe v wade".

Trump has to be driving RWers absolutely nuts as he attempts to be on "all sides" of the abortion issue and blatantly lying that this is what American people wanted.

Biden is taking advantage of Trump and the RWing's efforts to be on both sides of the issue with a new ad out today.

Most people haven't been paying attention over the last decade or so. GOP politicians have been pushing policy that is widely unpopular with the majority of Americans. They have been gaming the system through gerrymandering, and have been increasingly spouting authoritarian rhetoric. I don't think winning elections is part of their long-term goals. I think they want to run this country as a minority hegemony. Projected end result: those voters who vote Team Red out of tribal loyalty will find themselves in straights just as dire as those who voted against Team Red- because once power is consolidated, it will be used on ALL citizens, regardless of voting history.

We've seen it time and again throughout history. It's easily predictable, because Human Nature never changes.


.02

Unfortunately, power is already consolidated. Red vs Blue is just a convenient facade for the entities pulling the strings to distract the masses with. A minority hegemony of the rich already exists. We've just got ridiculous red and blue puppets for people to get worked up over while those behind the curtain are forgotten about. Trump is a rather distracting puppet. Lots there to rally against.

Yup, I think you nailed it pretty well Clem.

Trump's conflicting abortion stances are coming back to haunt him — and his party

Democrats are making sure Trump pays for Roe v. Wade's dismantling, one state at a time.

April 11, 2024, 5:00 AM EDT
By Natasha Korecki and Adam Edelman
link

On Monday, Donald Trump declared that abortion decisions should be left to the states, a statement he made to tamp down a fervor about his lack of clarity over how he'd handle the issue as president.

It did the opposite.

In the past three days, the former president has energized scores of Democrats across the country, elevated the marquee issue of his opponent’s campaign, potentially put a key battleground state at risk and drawn fire from onetime allies in his own party.

Trump’s dizzying stances on abortion this week — on Monday embracing states' rights and on Wednesday distancing himself from a state-based outcome — demonstrate the messaging impossibilities that are ahead for him as he moves into the general election and tries to shed the impact of Roe v. Wade's fall.

Trump made a transparently political decision Monday, moving against a part of his party and not speaking in support of a national abortion ban. In his video statement, he noted that electoral politics influenced his thinking, lamenting GOP losses since Roe was reversed.

If Trump thought he was taking the more politically palatable route, he was stung one day later by an Arizona Supreme Court decision that triggered an 1864 law saying anyone who performs the procedure or helps a woman access an abortion could face felony charges and up to five years in prison.

Since the 2022 U.S. Supreme Court decision to overturn the landmark abortion case, Republicans have failed to find a way to neutralize the issue.

On one hand, embracing nationwide restrictions on abortion drives the potential for down-ballot Republican losses. On the other, embracing states' rights forces Trump to own the most extreme measures in those states.

States' rights — up to a point
On Wednesday, Trump told reporters he would not sign a national abortion ban as president. Then, signaling he is still muddling through messaging, Trump late Wednesday released two videos about the issue on his Truth Social media platform.

"We brought it back to the states, and now lots of things are happening, and lots of good things are happening," Trump said in one video.

In another, he accused Democrats of trying to distract from immigration and the economy.

"The only issue they think they have is on abortion, and now all I say is the states are handling it and it’s totally killed that issue," he said.

But one of the problems as Trump tries to combat a Democratic messaging juggernaut accusing him of being responsible for every state decision and of threatening a federal abortion ban is that at one time or another, he has supported both.

Trump has bobbed and weaved on abortion for the entirety of his political career. In 1999, he proclaimed that as a lifelong New Yorker, he was “pro-choice,” even saying he would support “partial-birth abortion.” That flipped by the time he ran for president as a Republican in 2015, though he initially still praised Planned Parenthood. By the time he took office in 2017, he was vowing to appoint judges to overturn Roe v. Wade.

At the same time, as president, he urged Congress to pass a 20-week abortion ban.

“I call upon the Senate to pass this important law and send it to my desk for signing,” Trump said as he addressed the anti-abortion-rights March for Life in Washington, D.C. He made the statement after the House had already advanced the measure, which he applauded in real time.

But on Monday, he said he supported states' rights. Two days later, after a frenzy erupted over Arizona's court ruling, which was a direct result of Roe's fall, he said the court had gone too far.

His campaign later told NBC News that Trump believes decisions should be made at the electoral or legislative levels in the states — not by the courts.

“President Trump could not have been more clear. These decisions should be left to the states to ‘determine by vote or legislation or perhaps both,’” Trump campaign spokeswoman Karoline Leavitt said.

But hours after Trump's remarks Wednesday, Arizona Republicans blocked a legislative attempt by Democrats to quickly repeal the law. The Republican House speaker said Democrats were trying to rush it.

Trump, meanwhile, has proudly taken credit for the Supreme Court’s knocking down Roe v. Wade, because he nominated the three conservative justices who made it possible.

It is at least the third time — the others were in Alabama, where a ruling calling embryos children caused in vitro fertilization to come to a halt, and Florida, where a court is allowing a six-week abortion ban to move forward — that Trump had spoken against local laws or rulings that have emerged since Roe v. Wade was overturned.

“From a purely political perspective, both the Alabama and Arizona Supreme Court decisions should be considered in-kind donations to Democratic super PACs,” said Matthew Bartlett, a Republican strategist. “It has thrust the issue, in stark terms, upon the Republican electorate and those running."

Bartlett said that Republicans from Trump on down are trying to “flip-flop, moderate or change into a position that is looking more like the American public” but that it could take more than one election cycle before the party finds its footing.

Democrats go on offense
With Trump’s “leave it to the states” tactic now facing blowback after the Arizona ruling, it is again clear than Republicans continue to lack an effective way to counter messaging from Democrats attacking them on abortion rights.

“This is the first presidential election where abortion will be front and center,” Republican strategist Alex Conant said. “This is just not an issue where Republicans are likely to win.”
Meanwhile, Democrats have been able to effortlessly unearth years — decades, in some cases — of comments that Republicans in key races have made that make it all too easy to paint a broad swath of GOP candidates as hypocritical or unprincipled or anti-woman.

"Voters don’t believe brand new information, but they really believe when you tell them something they already know or think is true," said a Democratic operative working on a key battleground congressional race. "And that’s exactly what’s happening in the case of abortion. Democrats are saying: ‘Republicans do not want you to have this right. They have been saying that your entire life; you should believe them.’ And voters believe that.

"Republicans are saying, ‘We changed our minds; you should have some rights. Don’t look at what I’ve said five years ago,’ and voters rightly know that that’s bulls---," the person added.

The issue has become a centerpiece of President Joe Biden’s re-election campaign and one of the few areas in which early polling finds him ahead of Trump.

Christina Amestoy, a spokeswoman for the group Think Big America — Illinois Gov. J.B. Pritzker’s nonprofit group working in battlegrounds like Arizona to help support abortion-related ballot measures for the fall — said the timing of Trump’s statement Monday only further linked him to the court decision.

“Just 24 hours after he said it, we got to see exactly what Trump is supporting by leaving it up to the states,” Amestoy said. “Arizona just rolled back the clock on women’s rights 160 years to a time when doctors didn’t even know to wash their hands.”

The challenge for Trump and the party is that, regardless of how Republicans handle their individual contests, another controversial state ruling will inevitably pop up that everyone is asked to then take sides on.

“It’s clear the anti-abortion movement wasn’t stopping at abortion — they’re coming after IVF, they’re coming after contraception, they’re coming after women,” she said, demonstrating how Democrats intend to message on the issue between now and November.

GOP backlash to Trump's position
In recent months, Trump publicly and privately flirted with coming out with a public statement supporting a national abortion ban, listening to a segment of his party that was pushing for such a measure. He suffered backlash Monday after he failed to address the topic. And by Wednesday, he said he would not sign such a ban.

Former Vice President Mike Pence called Trump’s video Monday “a slap in the face to the millions of pro-life Americans who voted for him in 2016 and 2020.”

In his 4½-minute video, Trump claimed that there was public consensus about the high court’s dismantling of Roe even though polling consistently indicates that a majority of Americans favor those federal protections.

"My view is now that we have abortion where everybody wanted it from a legal standpoint, the states will determine by vote or legislation, or perhaps both, and whatever they decide must be the law of the land,” Trump said in the video.

By Wednesday, Trump was saying the Arizona court’s ruling went too far, but he downplayed the significance, saying that “it’ll be straightened out” and that the “will of the people" will prevail.

“I’m sure that the governor and everybody else are going to bring it back into reason, and that will be taken care of, I think, very quickly,” he said.

Trump also suggested Florida is likely to vote to overturn its new abortion law in November.

“It’s the will of the people. So Florida is probably going to change. Arizona is going to definitely change. Everybody wants that to happen,” he said.

Not long after his remarks, the anti-abortion-rights group Susan B. Anthony List, with which Trump had aligned himself, slammed the same ballot efforts in those states — citing the same “will of the people” phrasing Trump used.

“The proposed ballot initiatives in Florida and Arizona have been written by the far Left and if enacted would allow for painful late-term abortions in the fifth, sixth, seventh month of pregnancy and beyond,” SBA Pro-Life America President Marjorie Dannenfelser said in a statement. “They would wipe away all pro-life laws put in place by the legislature, reflective of the will of the people. These initiatives are fueled by hundreds of millions of dollars of left-wing money designed to deceive voters about their true intent. Pro-life candidates and officials must oppose them.”

GOP's no-win scenarios on repeat
In the nearly two years since Roe fell, abortion rights have won every single race in which they have appeared directly on the ballot.

That hot streak has extended to numerous Democrats — in races for the Senate, governor, state Supreme Courts and others — who made their support of abortion rights (and their opponents’ opposition to them) central features of their campaigns.

It also gave way to a growing number of Republicans who encouraged the party’s candidates to talk more about the issue and back something specific. But even in races in which Republicans went on offense with a deliberate policy approach to the issue, they lost — a data point over which Republican strategists still worry and Democratic operatives still salivate.

In Virginia’s November elections, for example, Republican Gov. Glenn Youngkin persuaded a large slate of Republican candidates in the legislative races to coalesce behind his proposal for a ban on abortion after 15 weeks — which included exceptions for rape, incest and the health of the woman — as part of his effort to gain Republican control of both chambers of the Legislature.

Strategists and politics watchers, sensitive to the party’s broad struggles on abortion, saw the proposal as an important and hopeful test message for Republicans looking for a more nuanced reproductive rights policy and message — one they hoped could appeal to moderates and independents — in the post-Roe era.

But that failed, too. Democrats walked away with control of both chambers — an outcome that further cemented the notion that Republicans cannot win on the issue even if they run on a non-extreme and thoughtful proposal.

Land of the free. Unless you were black between 1776 and 1964, or a woman in 2024.

I have your back.

We aren’t talking about differing economic philosophies. This is baseline hypocrisy of tUSA.

It is an extension of hate that has grown since the civil war. Hate, intolerance, and oppression have become the hallmark of the Republican Party. No, I won’t sit idly by anymore.

History has shown what tUSA stands for, we are going to win again. Why? Because we have virtue on our side.

Your post appears to be a solid example of the hypocrisy you complain about.

Hate, intolerance, and oppression have become the Hallmark of America. "Everyone" thinks virtue is on their side. You're little different than the Republicans. You just hate different things. You seem just as intolerant of them as they seem of you. Both seem to try to oppress the other.

It's damned depressing to watch and rather bloody exhausting.

Virtue. Pfffft. Conform to our paltry vision of how things should be or we'll "beat"/defeat you ("we're going to win.") smh. Hypocrisy. Ha, that's a laugh. Hypocrites complaining about hypocrites complaining about hypocrites is the American way now.

History is written by the victors. Most of them were hypocrites, too.

Some might wish to declare victory and begin writing their victory speeches...but it appears that the "radical right" might have made a gross miscalculation...by targeting "a woman's right to choose"...women will decide the outcome.

We are only in the first inning...

Have you noticed how the Right always wants to stomp out voting on abortion! they know they'll lose virtually every time.

Americans are against anything that stops a woman from having a choice. The morons, well meaning as they might be, haven't yet realized this simple fact.

They will lose every time if it's an un-rigged election. By un-rigged I mean not gerry mandered.

It's kinda been proven over and over again is just the last two years.

I'd love to see term limits on SCOTUS as well. Let's put that on the ballot in November,, I bet it wins.

I don't see many people on the right declaring victory. (On the boards)

I see quite a few people on the left posting like it's a done deal. "We will win because virtue is on our side."

To me, the virtue signalling on both sides is rather odious.

Honestly, I'm kind of surprised that abortion has so much support. Not on a moral level, but due to all the potential revenue lost. Kids are expensive. I'm surprised more corporations aren't trying to stack the deck against it to grow the markets for their products. But, then, I'm a cynic with a BBA.

I believe there are two points here that need to be addressed. First, just because you feel that a woman has a right to choose doesn't mean you support abortion. In my personal life, as far as my personal choice and feelings on the topic, I'm anti abortion. But where I differ from many is I don't believe I have the right to force my beliefs on the rest of the nation. I don't have to pay to raise their children. I don't want to advocate a heroin addict to be forced into having a child. I don't want to force a child who isn't even old enough to be in high school to have a baby. I also don't see the vast majority of these people railing against abortion waiting in line to adopt a child. So allowing people to make their own choice doesn't mean you support the choice they decide to make. But as you can see, under certain circumstances I would.

I'm not sure corporations aren't helping stack the deck against it. I would have to take a look at where and which candidates they donate to.

Choices are a good thing. Teaching children the actual and full history of this nation is a good thing. Teaching them to be respectful of others who are different than themselves and that they have the same rights as they do is a good thing. Allowing them to read books that talk about the experiences of people different than themselves in order to help them better understand those people is a good thing.

I understand there are parents who object to their children knowing and learning these things. And that's fine. They should be able to have the choice to opt their children out of these things. What they shouldn't be able to do is take away the choice for all the other parents who want their children to be taught these things.

That's where and why they keep running into problems. They not only wish to have control over their life, they want to have control over everyone elses.

Unless that woman hasn't been born yet. Some woman's rights activists are fine with no choices for her.

Where the line should be is seen from varying perspectives.

Can abortion be a female expression of an attempt at "patriarchy"/to exert control?

How many men support abortion because they don't want to have to pull out, wear a rubber, abstain, or have a vasectomy? Or because they don't want to be stuck paying child support? Do (some) men really want women to have a choice or do the men themselves want the choice available knowing they can influence a woman's decision?

I'm not against the possibility of abortion. The laissez-faire/minimalization attitude some seem to have towards it is disheartening, though.

Some people seem to want all of the rights and none of the responsibilities. Max out those credit cards and hope someone forgives the debt.

Now, I'm not saying all people have these views towards abortion. More just saying that there are potential dark sides that shouldn't be completely disregarded and/or glossed over.

I agree with you for the most part here.

My trepidation is more with the presentation of the choices. Yes, more choices can be a good thing. Yet bad choices aren't good things. I'm not against abortion as the less bad option. I am against presenting it as a good option. (Much like politicians)

As for that last line, that is one of the tricky parts with the abortion discussion. When does the clump of cells become someone else? Some people are prone to anthropomorphism and have the "need" to defend those that can't defend themselves.

You do realize that in order to take that choice from some self perceived "dark side" you would be taking that right to choose from everyone else as well, correct?

I'm not for taking away the choice. I am for having people acknowledge all aspects of the choice.

And I believe the point you're making can't be discounted. As with anything there will be a faction that will abuse it. I'm certainly glad to hear you say you don't believe that's enough to take away the choice. As I stated there is abuse and people using nefarious reasons to abuse almost everything one can think of. It seems as though we agree that's not enough to take away the choice for the vast majority of women who don't.

"I don't see many people on the right declaring victory. (On the boards)"

You must win in order to declare victory

The facts simply don't support that they win much.

"I see quite a few people on the left posting like it's a done deal. "We will win because virtue is on our side.""

So far, it has been. Ohio, Kansas to name a few. The right fought like hell to get those votes off the ballot. The left won the right to have those votes, and then the won the votes.

AS for the virtue thing, I've never said any thing like that. I don't remember anyone having said that. But maybe they have and I missed it. That's possible.

For me it comes down to common sense. People don't like it when you take things away from them. Things they've counted on for 50 years. You do that and you will pay a price

Nothing to do with Virtue. It's just being right!

Meanwhile in 1864 Arizona, a girl must be 10 years old to marry. Pretty sure the clergy and evangelicals didn’t protest that.

Pretty sure a 10 year old girl in 1864 Arizona had more common sense than half the people on this board. Just saying.

mac brought up the right declaring victory. BuckDawg1946 brought up virtue.

Is it being right or believing you're right? There's a difference between the two. It's much easier to think the latter than to be the former. It also depends on how one defines "right." It can be a matter of perspective.

It does feel a bit like we're talking about different things. You're talking about specific measure (abortion) votes. I was more referring to the upcoming elections as far as offices. It can be hard to keep track of who is talking about what.

Ohio congressional GOPers would be fine with that as long as she doesn’t have abortion access. SMFH, never been ashamed of where I from until the Trump era of MAGA lunacy. Trifling Plebs who think they’re on a blues-brothers-esque crusade for god, wrecking the damn country.

I agree with you that people have different perspectives. Where it gets complicated is that often times their perspective or their belief of what the truth is gets based on what they "think and believe" the facts are. Often times the message they are receiving are not the facts. There are only one set of facts. Perspectives not based in facts create much of the predicament we see ourselves in now.

Former Marine sentenced to 9 years in prison in firebombing of California Planned Parenthood clinic

A former marine who used a Molotov cocktail to firebomb a Planned Parenthood clinic in Costa Mesa, California, was sentenced to nine years in prison Monday, according to the Justice Department.

Chance Brannon — along with his co-defendant Tibet Ergul — attacked the Planned Parenthood clinic and conspired to plot attacks with Ergul and co-defendant Xavier Batten, including a potential attack on a power grid, in “furtherance of a race war,” the Justice Department said in a news release. Brannon was an active-duty member of the Marines when the attack took place in March 2022.

“The defendant’s assault on the Costa Mesa Clinic was designed to terrorize patients seeking reproductive healthcare and the people who provide it. Such violence has no place in the national discourse on reproductive health,” Assistant Attorney General Kristen Clarke for the Justice Department’s Civil Rights Division said in the release.

Brannon, 24, pleaded guilty in November 2023 to one count of conspiracy, one count of malicious destruction of property by fire and explosives, one count of possession of an unregistered destructive device, and one count of intentionally damaging a reproductive health services facility in violation of the Freedom of Access to Clinic Entrances (FACE) Act, the release said.

In addition to the nine-year sentence, Brannon was also ordered to pay $1,000 in restitution, the release said.

CNN has reached out to Brannon’s attorney for comment.

“Brannon’s deep-rooted hatred and extremist views inspired him to target individuals or groups who did not conform to his neo-Nazi worldview and, in one case, led him to carry out a violent attack which could have killed innocent people,” Acting Assistant Director in Charge Mehtab Syed of the FBI Los Angeles Field Office said in a statement.

Ergul, 22, and Batten, 21, pleaded guilty to their charges related to the case earlier this year and will be sentenced on May 15 and May 30, respectively, the release said. CNN has reached out to their attorneys for comment.

Brannon first considered attacking other targets like the San Diego office for the Anti-Defamation League, but he decided on the Planned Parenthood clinic “to scare pregnant women, deter doctors and staff from providing abortion services, and encourage similar violent acts,” according to the release.

He and Ergul planned a second attack on a Planned Parenthood clinic in June 2022 following the overturning of Roe v. Wade that month but abandoned the plan because of law enforcement in the area, the Justice Department said.

The Planned Parenthood in Costa Mesa provides reproductive health services, including abortion-related services, and was forced to cancel dozens of appointments after the incident. No one was injured in the attack, Planned Parenthood said at the time.

The National Abortion Federation, a professional association for abortion providers, reported a “sharp increase” in violence at abortion clinics in 2022.

Prosecutors allege that Brannon was motivated by neo-Nazi ideology and discussed “cleans[ing]” the US of particular ethnic groups, according to the release. Brannon in 2022 kept plans for an attack on a Southern California Edison substation in a thumb drive “disguised as a military-style necklace bearing the motto for the Marine Corps,” according to the release.

There were 25 “actual physical attacks” in 2022 reported on power facilities across the US and one report of “sabotage,” according to statistics available from the Department of Energy, CNN reported last year. The FBI warned in a 2022 bulletin of threats by extremist groups to “create civil disorder and inspire further violence.”

During the summer of 2023, Brannon and Ergul also researched how to attack Dodger Stadium during an LGBTQ+ pride event using a remote-detonated device but were arrested two days before it was set to take place, according to court documents cited by the Justice Department. Days before being arrested, Brannon had also begun planning to rob Jewish people living in the Hollywood Hills, according to the release.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/15/politics/planned-parenthood-attack-former-marine-sentenced/index.html

Shout out to all women, we still have your back.

No you dont. You want men to compete in their sports.

And pee all over your toilet seat.

In fairness, I never do that, even on rough nights. I’m 40 and don’t play any sports. Now the rim in the dark is another story…

Bro, waay waay TMI!!

Lemme save you some time. From now on just post:

DERF!


IT WILL MEAN THE SAME AND SAVE YOU KEYSTROKES.

j/c

Arizona House votes to overturn 1864 abortion ban, paving way to leave 15-week limit in place

The Arizona House of Representatives voted Wednesday to overturn the state’s 160-year-old abortion ban, setting the stage for a repeal that would leave the state’s 15-week restriction on the procedure in place.

The vote comes after two failed attempts by lawmakers in the Republican-controlled state House to bring the bill to the floor last week, as Democrats sought to strike down the ban after the state Supreme Court revived it earlier this month.

Three Republicans voted with all 29 Democrats Wednesday to advance the legislation. The state Senate is expected to pass the repeal measure in early May. And Democratic Gov. Katie Hobbs is expected to sign the bill if lawmakers advance it to her desk.

“This has been a long time coming,” said Athena Salman, the executive director of Arizona campaigns for Reproductive Freedom for All, formerly NARAL Pro-Choice America.

In its April 9 ruling, the Arizona Supreme Court said that the state must adhere to the 1864 law that bars all abortions except in cases when “necessary” to save a pregnant woman’s life. The law also carries a prison sentence of two to five years for abortion providers.

Wednesday’s vote is a boon to reproductive rights advocates and some Republican candidates, including former President Donald Trump, who have tried to distance themselves from the court ruling.

Within the Arizona House, however, the repeal measure drew angry remarks from several Republicans.

“I am disgusted today,” state Rep. Rachel Jones said. “Life is one of the tenants of our Republican platform. To see people go back on that value is egregious to me.”

Arizona House Speaker Ben Toma, who said he opposes all abortions except to save a pregnant woman’s life, said lawmakers had rushed into repealing the ban.

State Rep. Matt Gress, one of the Republicans who voted with Democrats, said the ban – which was first introduced when Arizona was still a US territory – didn’t reflect the values of most Arizona voters. Repealing it should have been a simple proposition, he said.

“I think it was more difficult than it needed to be,” Gress told CNN.

As the session ended, state House leadership removed Gress from the chamber’s Appropriations Committee, a move that was seen as punishment for bucking the party. Gress said it was “unfortunate and potentially unprecedented,” but he didn’t regret his vote.

“I campaigned against the territorial ban and made it very clear to my voters that I don’t support it,” said Gress, who represents a Phoenix-area district.

Hobbs told CNN’s Abby Phillip Wednesday night she was “relieved” by the repeal’s passage in the state House.

“There have been untold levels of chaos and fear across the state since this Supreme Court decision. So now the Senate needs to vote to send this repeal to my desk, so we can get rid of this 1864 ban once and for all,” the Democratic governor said on “NewsNight.”

If a repeal vote fails in the state Senate, the 1864 law could take effect as early as June 8, making Arizona one of more than a dozen states that bans abortion at virtually all stages of pregnancy with few exceptions.

If it succeeds, Arizona’s 15-week restriction on abortions will continue to be state law. However, officials warned that the territorial ban could be briefly enforceable because nonemergency bills passed in Arizona don’t take effect until 90 days after the Legislature adjourns.

In neighboring California, Democratic Gov. Gavin Newsom praised a state bill that would allow Arizona medical professionals to perform abortions for Arizona patients in California through the end of the year, arguing that it could help Arizonans even if the 1864 ban is repealed.

“With its urgency clause, SB 233 would fill a critical gap for care during a meaningful period of time before an Arizona repeal could be implemented,” a news release from the governor’s office said. “Swift action helps combat the confusion and chilling effect this back-and-forth creates.”

The Civil War-era abortion ban, which dates to before statehood, was codified in 1901. It remained in effect until 1973, when it was blocked by a court injunction after Roe v. Wade created a federal constitutional right to an abortion.

In March 2022, months before the US Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade, Republican Gov. Doug Ducey signed into law the state’s 15-week ban, which has no exceptions for rape or incest. That legislation stated explicitly that it did not overrule the 1864 law.

Democrats have made clear that they still plan to emphasize abortion policy heading into the general election. Arizona Republicans hold one-seat majorities in the state House and Senate, and the state will be a US Senate and presidential battleground this fall.

Sam Paisley, a spokeswoman for the Democratic Legislative Campaign Committee, which works to elect Democrats to statehouse seats, called Wednesday’s vote a “clear victory for Arizona House Democrats” but pointed out that the 15-week restriction would still exist after a repeal.

“The only way to protect reproductive freedoms is to elect Democrats to the legislature to repeal this (15-week) ban too,” Paisley said in a statement.

Abortion rights advocates are currently working to place a constitutional amendment proposal on the state’s November ballot that would protect abortion access up to fetal viability, which doctors believe is around 22 to 24 weeks of pregnancy. Arizona for Abortion Access, the group backing the amendment, has gathered more than 500,000 signatures. Advocates must submit 384,000 valid signatures by July 3 to make the general election ballot.

Prior to the Arizona House vote, the chamber’s rules committee voted along party lines to approve the late introduction of three House resolutions, largely believed to be Republican-backed ballot measures designed to compete with the abortion rights amendment.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/24/politics/arizona-house-abortion-law/index.html

Arizona's Democratic governor signs a bill to repeal 1864 ban on most abortions

Democratic Arizona Gov. Katie Hobbs has signed a bill to repeal a ban on most abortions

https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/arizona-governor-set-sign-repeal-total-abortion-ban-109852638

It's official. Arizona supreme court took Arizona from the 21st century back to the 19th century. (MAGA?)

Now Arizona has returned to the 21ast century.

Shout out to the women of Arizona, belive it or not, we still have your back.

Doc and Mcfly?

Didn't take the Arizona GOP long to back down on their support of for the 1864 abortion ban...did it?

Just the threat of being voted out office is enough to make Republican politicians reverse coarse...

But understand this, these radical Republicans will say or do anything to save their job today... knowing if they can get re-elected and maintain control, they will reverse coarse once again and target women's rights.

It's the voters who hold the power over the politicians and their radical agendas.

Any thought that the radical right is going to back down on the issue of abortion was answered this week thanks to Trumps thirst to talk about what he has planned for women if he is reelected.

I saw not only trump but some far right politicians that seemed to endorse the same thing this week. And then their followers will claim they aren't authoritarian. This is nothing less than Nazi BS right there.