Browns players kneel during National Anthem

http://cle.247sports.com/Bolt/Browns-players-kneel-during-National-Anthem-106375149

Several Cleveland Browns players took a knee during Monday night's National Anthem according to Mary Kay Cabot.

Linebacker Jamie Collins, running back Duke Johnson, tight end Seth DeValve, running back Isaiah Crowell and wide receiver Kenny Britt were among the group. Quarterback DeShone Kizer placed his hands on a few during the protest.

Earlier in the week, Jackson made the claim that he did not want his players to protest the National Anthem.

The protest originated in 2016 when San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick took a knee to protest police brutality and the racial divide.

Crowell is in interesting participant in the protest. Last July, he posted an insensitive picture on Instagram illustrating a policeman.

Skirmishes in Charlottesville and Boston likely incited the group's decision to protest. None of the players took a knee during the preseason opener against the New Orleans Saints. White supremacists and anti-protesters clashed in both locations.

Leave the politics to the politicians they know how to screw things up ...

They can all take a knee and be in good position to kiss my ass.

OK. SO when do you want to go tell them?? Maybe we can make it happen!

The more they stand the least news worthy it will become.

I have to apologize. The players imho were very respectful in their prayer/protest. It wasnt a look at me moment ike we have seen from others.

Disgusting, my worst moment as a Brown's fan in 51 years.

#2 isn't even close.

To hide behind the prayer thing made it all the more disrespectful, inconsiderate, and disgusting.

You guys think you are good people? Foolish, mislead, brainwashed, mind-controlled libtards. That is what you are. That is who you are.

I wish everyone of you were cut from the team tonight.

j/c

It's interesting to see which the flag-waving types think is more important: a symbolic piece of nylon, or actual free speech and protest in the name of justice and human life itself.

Anyway, this thread seems like it belongs in Tailgate.

As a praying man my self I think they should stand during the Anthem I think it's disrespectful to the flag and those that serve.u can call it what u want or u can say it means this or that that.at the end it's disappointing and shameful not to stand for the Anthem

FUlly expected to see heads exploding in here. I bet this thread will be hugely entertaining the next few days.

It seems we already have someone equating the flag with God -- at least as far as prayer is concerned.

For the record, that's objectively antithetical to both America and God.

Maybe we should not stand for them.just maybe we turn the TV and they lose rating that means they lose the big TV commercial contract.maybe I don't buy that jersery and I give the money to another cause.maybe I don't buy anything NFL . maybe I take a knee against them

Most of those guys would benefit from making a few statements ON the football field...

Even after a 1 and 15 season and 20+ years of losing. Last night was the most ashamed I ever have been to be a Browns fan. Simply shameful and disgusting. The flag is how we honor those that died for our freedom. To not honor that is nothing more than a disrespectful act.

j/c

to me, I've never understood the relevance or point in kneeling during the anthem. What does it really accomplish? Why not just form an advocacy group during the offseason/off days if you're REALLY concerned with social injustice?

I'm pretty much done with the NFL.

Just another brick in the wall.

I'm thinking about cancelling my Sunday Ticket.

Great.

This sucks.



Good post.

This is the right course.

Not display personal feelings on the field. They are supposed to act like highly paid professionals with one goal - win football games.

Hue looks like he's not in control of the team.

It sure looks like the browns are going to suck into the future. This is very bad news for the franchise.

This sucks. I am bummed.

There goes this season and probably Hue too.

jc...

Those players exercised "a right" provided to them by the American Constitution..didn't break any federal, state or local laws..didn't break any NFL rules or team rules that I know of..so I have no problem with what they did.

Those who served and sacrificed for the USA not only protected our country, but they were protecting the rights provided to all Americans under our Constitution.

Article [I] (Amendment 1 - Freedom of expression and religion) 13

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

link



That said, personally, I would not kneel during the National Anthem, but I recognize the right of others to have a different opinion and to exercise their rights under our Constitution.

Because an advocacy group in the offseason (which can and should probably still be done) isn't in-your-face. It's quiet and passive and easily ignored.

Their protest is about not being ignored; not being brushed aside.

I absolutely do not want, like, or enjoy having my entertainment spoiled by someone shoving their political views in my face, but that is how and why the protest works - and why they are doing it where and when they are. It is their most effective way of doing it.

I'm disappointed but not surprised. There's nothing much that these perpetually pubescent, self-important, entitled little attention-whores could do that would surprise me.

quote by Prpl above:



I don't feel it working.

I feel more division.

This.

I'm proud of the guys.

I think anyone with personal agendas in a Team sport, with the idea of being role models for kids are complete douchebags.. The NFL needs to treat this like a business and just make a rule against displays as such. This disgusted me..Don't like the country? GTFO

The flag is a piece of fabric that more often than not is Made in China so spare me the drama of that is how we honor our fallen brothers and sisters . We honor them by recognizing that they sacrificed their lives for an idea .

I may not be jumping up and down with joy over the fact that this group of athletes choose this method of protest but it is what it is .

j/c:

While players have a "right" not to stand during the anthem, others have a "right" to be unhappy w/their position.

I think a lot of working class Americans have a difficult time identifying w/multi-millionaires complaining about "oppression" in the United States.

Last year, research polls were conducted on the topic and the data showed that NFL ratings took a hit in large part due to players kneeling during the playing of the anthem.

Do you have a link quoting any one of those guys not liking the country?

And what personal agenda do you speak of?

Here is an example of the "oppression" black NFL players are protesting.

exactly, NFL players and pro athletes are the last people that need to cry oppression. It'd be different if they actually did anything to help the cause, but to simply protest because it seems to be the best way to scream "Look at me, I'm protesting, put me on the news" What have any of these people done to advance the narrative on the issues they are supposedly protesting

Only a matter of time before this comment showed up.

How bout this, if you don't like what the players are doing, don't watch.

Most of y'all sit on y'all asses anyway doing the national anthem. Love how people act like they stand up at home or pull over and stand while why're driving listening on the radio.

Most of y'all are already too drunk to even move.

I think it's very likely last night signaled the end of Hue Jackson's career as an effective NFL head coach.

After last night, I put the odds at much greater than 50/50 that Hue Jackson is out before the 2018 season.

That's why so many Browns fans are saddened by this.

It smacks of a lack of discipline and leadership.

That's patently ridiculous and absurd.

I'd prefer that you're right.

One way or another, I'd like to revisit my post in 6 months.

Out of curiosity. Is this a spreading phenomenon?

Are the Patriots players taking knees?

So then Pete Carroll is getting fired at seasons end too? Michael Bennett sat during the national anthem. Additionally, the Seahawks organization and Pete stand by Bennett too. Link

I don't know guys, I don't see the big deal. It's a right in this country to protest and they're doing it silently, without violence. Heck, this country was built on protesting. These athletes shouldn't care about social injustice because they have so much money, but they do and are trying to raise awareness to something bigger than themselves. It didn't bother me when Mahmoud Abdul-Rauf sat for the national anthem back in the 90's with the Denver Nuggets and it doesn't bother me today.

Plus, this isn't the first time we've seen this in the past year. I barely even flinched last night when I heard about it. I was more miffed that Djoku only had one catch for one yard and then left with an injury. Here's a message board with A LOT more members than here GAMEFAQS NFL Board, not a single thread or post talked about it last night. Players sitting or kneeling isn't moving the needle across the country anymore.

It wouldn't be how I'd protest something, but we're not talking about me.

I wish I didn't have to, but we have a bunch of children playing a game for millions of dollars whining about oppression...please, and i turned it to the indians when i saw that BS.. never expected Browns players to be such douchebags, when you 1-15, you shouldnt be drawing anymore attention to yourselves

I could not have said it better myself.

1-15 doesn't have anything to do with the issues they a bringing up. that's a failure on your part for trying to equate something that has nothing to do with each other.

praying/protesting as a group doesn't distract their football team. what they did had nothing to do with their performance on the field for 4 quarters. it only hurts your feelings for however long the anthem is playing.

and you DON'T have to. nobody is forcing you to buy tickets or watch.

so yea, you don't like it, DON'T watch.

I disagree with what they did, but I support their right to do it.

I had no idea it happened until I came here. I never watch the anthem at the beginning of games. Basically it had zero effect on my game watching experience. Meh.

I try to stay away from non-football talk but....my 2 cents

Protest is necessary when people lack the audience to address their concerns. The concerns they seek to call attention to are valid. But because the concerns they seek to address lack an audience protests usually aren't meant with popular support at the time. It takes awhile for the larger group to see and understand the point of the protest.

I support and applaud them just like I did Kaepernick. They just have to tough it out for however long it takes for them to effect change....and its already happening. I have full faith in our nation to recognize and address areas that require social reform.

it's that simple bro. at least you get it from that perspective.

Proud of what? If I owned this team it would be against company policy to make statements out side of the business.

They look like pampered fools.

If DC raised federal taxes by 5% tomorrow, I'd assume many would not like it. Can I then say the same thing to those people?

Support everything in this country or leave.

All this talk about the anthem protest. We have the right in this country to protest so why should it bother people that much that they are losing sleep over it? No different than a musician or an artist protesting. Remember Woodstock? Yea, they used the stage to protest too. The Black Power fist rise at the Olympics? Same thing. Great symbolism and powerful image. They have a stage and what better way to get a message across than to a huge audience? I honestly don't see the big deal nor why people should be so offended.

Plus, I seem to remember people being super upset and angry with Crowell last year when he sent a stupid tweet that was far worse. People wanted him off the team, out of the league and, some even went much further with their assessment and criticism. Yet, all of the above quickly evaporated into hot air once Crow busted out and started running up and down the field like a beast. Clearly, once football starts and, especially IF we begin winning all of the above moral chest beating will vanish into thin air.

To me the way they turned it into a prayer was significant. I think these things when don solo are more about getting attention, but as I watched it, since espn, found it necessary to replay it a couple times, I took it as more that they were praying for peace in the country, and not for "oppression" as Kaep did.

I don't agree with it, and I feel it does show some disrespect to the country, I find it ironic, since most people want God out of our country completely. I'm surprised some aren't "offended" by them praying on TV.

The trend has been started, and IMO the message will just be watered down the more the media feels they have to let everyone know it is happening. To them it is just some "controversy" they can promote. Something to write about and use to push whatever political agenda they want.

I just find it hard to believe that the players doing this don't realize that most see it as disrespecting the armed forces veterans, even though that is not their goal.

Kaep was different, he came out and spoke of his disrespect for the country openly while wearing a Castro shirt.

It has become old news IMO, and sooner or later nobody will care.

Not soon enough. Politics and football should never go together.

I hope nobody in the local media asks the players about it. Then it will stop.

I am really disgusted by the ignorance and stupidity I can find on this board. Just a piece of cloth? What do they teach you morons in school today?

That flag stands for everyone who served, fought, bled, and died for the idea of this country. A country where all men are created equal in the eyes of god, nature, or other men, and all can achieve what they can within the society.

I am a son of the Revolution. I am a son of the Confederacy. I am a son of the Union. My ancestors were patriots, torries, rebels, secessionist, immigrants, union soldiers, American soldiers, and just regular American citizens. In the end, they were all Americans.

My ancestors fought in the Revolution, on both sides. They fought in the Civil War, on both sides. They fought in WWII, both in the European and Pacific theaters, and on the home front. I had one grandfather earn 3 Purple Hearts in WWII, while the other housed soldiers awaiting deployment because he was unable to serve. My father was in the Navy during Viet Nam, and my son will be a Marine come next summer. IT IS FOR THEM AND ALL THE OTHERS THAT WE STAND AND SHOW OUR RESPECT.

Our country was never perfect, and it will never be perfect. It is the best thing going on this planet, though. We have corrected the stain of slavery in this country, which was started by the British. We have corrected the stain of women's rights. We have corrected the stain of segregation, which was started by the democrats. We have corrected most of the wrongs in this country to achieve what the original founders intended. We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.

If you want to change things in this country, feel free to go out and peaceably change things, but a lack of respect for those who fought to better this country only shows the ignorance, stupidity, and lack of patriotism in the current citizen that protests for the sake of protest.

J/C,

..."Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.

IE; Seperation of Church and State.

Great post, my man.

lol, another post basically saying that soldiers fought for your rights so you shouldn't use them.

as a combat vet i fully support and stand behind the players sitting and kneeling for the anthem. keep it going.

Don't know why anyone even cares what a bunch of jocks do. It's not like the flag means anything special anymore. They don't even say the pledge of allegiance at most places in the US anymore. This minor kind of protest is just laziness to me. They feel like doing something but they don't want to do anything real so they put on this meaningless show to say they did something when in fact they didn't do anything except try to pat themselves on the backs. I could care less at these stupid theatrics.

No, but I get why you wouldn't understand what I am saying. It's about respect, not protest. You should show respect when it is due, and those that came before us deserve it. One that does not respect anything will never get that.

stop. when it comes to these kinds of issues there's never a right way to do it that WON'T [censored] guys like you off.

"hey guys, don't riot, you have to protest peacefully"

*peacefully protest by kneeling for the anthem*

"not like that either".

What Herm Edwards says here I think hits closely to the mark.

http://www.espn.com/video/clip?id=20416645

There is a time and a place for everything.

On the job and on the clock is not a time afforded to the average Joe for a time to protest and then try to usurp God as if God has a fight in this game of fools.

I'm proud of my team.

why not? there is no rule, so obviously there is a time and place for it.

if you don't like it, start a petition to see if the owners can change the rules that way your feelings doesn't get hurt.

if not, you have two options: put up with it, or don't watch.

x2. I respect it.

They have not done anything to be proud of.

They can start with winning.

Must you Alt-left take away everything that gives us a break from all the madness?

How is respecting someone's actions "alt-left"?

sure, the moment the alt-right decide to fix what the players are protesting over.

don't like it, don't watch.

I think this was more of a prayer circle then a protest. but we will see what happens next game. that will tell for sure.
I do not like the protest kap and others are doing. shows disrespect.
I have come across this letter and thought i would share

Semper-fi

Powerful letter that shines a light on the other side and shows some of the hypocrisy of the NFL. Thanks for sharing that rabid.

j/c:

Posters are protesting that other posters are protesting against the player's protest.

Perfectly predictable.

You're right. The team needs to win for me to be proud of them on the football field. However, as individuals and as a group, I'm proud of them. Those were young players taking a big stand. That takes some cajones whether or not you like it. Now I'd love for them to break 500, but I am proud of the actions. Because I'm sick of hating on the Browns for the stupid off the field decisions they make. Brandon Weeden and Johnny Manziel were slow motion trainwrecks that just went on for years. It made me nauseated to see it -- I'm even nauseated thinking about it now. So yeah, again, going to be proud of these players for taking a stand about some of the racial violence in the United States. They play in a city where Tamir Rice was shot in. It's hard for them to ignore it. It's hard for the Cavs players to ignore as well. I'm glad they're sticking up for their beliefs. Now if they get cut, I won't complain. Freedom of speech does not mean freedom of venue. Completely different things, which many don't get because most successful protests in the world violate that freedom of venue idea. The least successful, do not violate that.

Just because they are multimillionaires doesnt mean that they were never racially profiled. Just think about that next time you say they should stop whining
I couldnt be prouder of these guys. Hope it doesnt fall on deaf and dumb ears.

Nothing happens in a vacuum. You dont see the right disrespectful of their national anthem, because we are patriots.

And...like I said, as soon as any of these 12 guys do something great everybody will be pro-Browns and totally forget this wasted argument. It will all have been for nothing and a vacuous, hollow rant.

That's ok...when some good solid play happens Swish, CHS and I will remind you that some of you called for Collins, Peppers, Kirksey, Duke, Crowell, DeValve, Taylor, Kizer, Coley etc. to be cut for simply exercising their rights and for "offending you".

Exactly....this is the league that needs to make this change. Until theres a deterrent, these little babies will think its ok.. Like he said, yes, you can be stupid and express your rights, but that alone doesn't absolve you from consequences. Time and a place, and at a stadium, where thousands of people with real jobs and much more going on than these "oppressed" players, are wanting to spend some time with family, enjoy themselves, and forget about their real lives for 4 hours. But instead they have to deal with all this petty horsehit from people who bite the very hand that feeds them.

I'm with you GM. I, personally wouldn't do that during the National Anthem.

Some may disagree, but I just feel like the better way to do this is with kneeling and/or prayer. I feel like it shows a little more respect than sitting on a bench like a lump of crap.

Personally, I won't. I'd just like to focus on them on the field. I'm all for them winning and getting into discussions about the on the field product. The Browns are losers. I don't care what anyone besides Joe Thomas does off the field/in the offseason. Today's overexposed world of social media makes it easier than ever to follow what players do in their life. However, I won't be caught dead caring what a Browns player does. But I'll watch snapchat and instagram videos of LBJ and JR all day. Because they are winners and they're constantly putting in work.

But what will you say if we get blown out 35-3 by the Steelers opening day and go 1-15 and it's same old browns again? That we are no longer just a joke on the field but off as well?

Hated it. If you need to explain it at length, what it means and all, it is wasted on most people. Especially those who hated it right off the bat.

I stand with Hue. I do not support this process, but there is a right that I will respect to do it.
Impossible for me to spin an un-American sentiment like this. So I stand and will for the colors and the song I love.

Wonder if these actions would all be exactly the same if there were no cameras and no national game and such. Find a better way than this for young role models.

It's perfectly okay in your world view to offend Patriots and Christians, but God forbid we offend the Muslims, LGBT, or Illegals.

You people are so predictable and so bias to your anarchist agenda.

If it offends one, then it offends us all.

I'll be bummed out that we suck, again when my expectations are to show improvement on the field. But, that's the difference...I am NOT bummed out in the slightest, nor offended by their off the field protest. It is their right to do so and it doesn't impact nor impede any performance on the field, whatsoever. If they lose 3-35 on Sept 10 and go 1-15 again that is down to lousy play and coaching and has absolute zilch to do with any protest or prayer.

I don't put this on Hue Jackson. This is a problem for The Haslams to address, not unlike Jerry Jones did in Dallas.

Their Job is to play football not to make political statements and use religion as their chrutch.

Well, one could argue they are being patriotic as they are exercising their first amendment right to peacefully protest and assemble.

One could also argue they are being Christian as according to the media and the players they were praying.

OK, I try to stay away from the left versus right debate. Mostly because I think (in here at least) I'm a moderate. In Canada, I'd be considered more right...although Canadian values as a whole have a distinctly left lean.

BUT you can't with a straight face that "the right" are patriots while "the left" is not. That's simply ridiculous.

Watch the Herm Edwards comments I posted. Perhaps drawing recognition to the problems that the US is experiencing is possibly the most patriotic thing that CAN be done.

Fair enough.

"Exactly....this is the league that needs to make this change. Until theres a deterrent, these little babies will think its ok.. Like he said, yes, you can be stupid and express your rights, but that alone doesn't absolve you from consequences. Time and a place, and at a stadium, where thousands of people with real jobs and much more going on than these "oppressed" players, are wanting to spend some time with family, enjoy themselves, and forget about their real lives for 4 hours. But instead they have to deal with all this petty horsehit from people who bite the very hand that feeds them."

See where I think you're misconstruing things is this isn't about the "oppressed players". These players are showing solidarity with their oppressed brethren that have no platform or pulpit to speak from. If Joe the plumber takes a knee no one cares. No one on the news talks about why a knee is being taken. These players aren't taking a knee for themselves. They're doing it for those that don't have a voice. Now it's on the news.

I disagree, a house divided will not stand.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

It's the mob rule mentality.

The left will eventually get their way and we will have a tyrannical one world government and economy and the end of this great nation.

There is a way that seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

1.Duke Johnson Jr.
2.Terrence Magee,
3.Jabril Peppers
4.Calvin Pryor,
5.Jamar Taylor,
6.Seth DeValve,
7.Kenny Britt
8.Ricardo Louis,
9.Christian Kirksey
10.Jamie Collins,
11.Isaiah Crowell
12.Brandon Wilds

I waited until i slept on it to write this reply, that being said.

See those 12 names right there? ALL of them are TRASHCANS. I am embarrassed to even say I am a Browns fan.

Infact, I NO LONGER AM A BROWNS FAN. Not as long as those filth are on this team.

They just disrespected the memory of my dad, of my uncle, of one of my best friends who was killed in combat. Not to mention 3 police officers I have known in my life to die in the line of duty.

I can no longer be a fan of this organization as long as people like them are allowed to be on this team.

Sorry Cleveland Browns, you broke my heart this day...the sad thing is...you broke my fathers even more...all he ever wanted was to see the Browns win, and in return you disrespect his and every other fallen vets memory and [censored] on their sacrifices...

so since you're not a fan anymore, why are you still here?

First point I agree with completely. And wasn't the point of what the Browns in question did was to show unity and encourage people to come together?

After that, you delve into some serious Alex Jones type stuff.

I guess some see what others choice to not look at, because the truth is too painful.

IMO...the NFL is becoming a three ringed circus.

Play football not politics.

Again...If you offend one, then you have offended us all.

This reads like one of those chain emails. This letter first appeared to circulate in 2016 after Kaepernik's protest and was originally or supposedly sent to Allen B. West who runs a conservative blog who in turn posted it to his site.

Additionally, the alleged author of the this letter refers to his season passes he has to Giants Stadium. Met Life stadium opened in 2010. I'm sure in 6 years he would have adjusted to the new name.

Secondly, this writing style and tone does not sound like something written by a well educated Colonel.

Anyway, it's a fun letter to appeal to it's target audience.

As for kneeling in protest, they're becoming commonplace and will lose their shock value. Soon people will be come numb to it. Personally, I would never kneel or sit during the anthem, but that's me.

Browns fans are still going to watch the team and as soon as one of these players, sacks a QB, makes an INT or scores a TD all will be forgotten.

For the players, in the end, kneeling will accomplish nothing.

I'll respect your right to your opinion....but don't make it sound like others who don't see the Bilderberg group or the Illuminati or a secret leftist global cabal around every corner don't have a valid opinion or have their head in the sand.

CLEVELAND -- A dozen Browns players took a knee in prayer during the national anthem before Monday night's preseason game against the New York Giants.

While the group knelt behind the bench, several other players placed a hand on a kneeling teammate's shoulder in support.

"There's a lot of racial and social injustices in the world that are going on right now," rookie safety Jabrill Peppers said after the Browns' second win in two preseason games. "We just decided to take a knee and pray for the people who have been affected and just pray for the world in general."

Players said linebacker Christian Kirksey led the prayer.

"We did it out of respect," Kirksey said. "No disrespect for anyone, we just felt like it was the right time and the need to do it."


Tight end Seth DeValve, who became the first known white NFL player to take a knee during the national anthem, said recent events in Charlottesville, Virginia, had a lot to do with the decision. But DeValve said it was also more involved. His wife, Erica, is African-American.

"I myself will be raising children that don't look like me, and I want to do my part as well to do everything I can to raise them in a better environment than we have right now," DeValve said. "So I wanted to take the opportunity with my teammates during the anthem to pray for our country and also to draw attention to the fact that we have work to do."

Those who took a knee were DeValve, running backs Duke Johnson Jr. and Terrence Magee, safeties Peppers and Calvin Pryor, cornerback Jamar Taylor, receivers Kenny Britt and Ricardo Louis, linebackers Kirksey and Jamie Collins, and running backs Isaiah Crowell and Brandon Wilds (who were not in uniform).

Wilds' participation was originally overlooked but was confirmed by the team after the game, bringing the count to an even dozen players.

Those who stood nearby included punter Britton Colquitt (who also had his hand on his heart), cornerback Jason McCourty, quarterback DeShone Kizer, defensive tackle Trevon Coley and offensive tackle Shon Coleman.

This past week, coach Hue Jackson stood by his players' right to make a statement, provided it was peaceful and he had advance notice.

"We respect our players; we respect the flag," Jackson said Monday night. "Those guys came to me and talked to me about it before they ever made a decision to do it."

Said Peppers, "We were not trying to disrespect the flag or be a distraction to the team, but as men we thought we had the right to stand up for what we believed in, and we demonstrated that."

Players said they had not thought past this game, so they could not say whether it was a one-time thing or if it will continue.

"It saddens me that in 2017 we have to do something like that," DeValve said. "I personally would like to say that I love this country. I love our national anthem. I'm very grateful to the men and women who have given their lives and give a lot every day to protect this courtly and serve this country. I want to honor them as much as I can.

"The United States is the greatest country in the world. It is because it provides opportunities to citizens that no other country does. The issue is that it doesn't provide equal opportunity to everybody.

"I wanted to support my African-American teammates today who wanted to take a knee."

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20409...-preseason-game

The latter wasn't Alex Jones type stuff as much as it was Biblical.

If they are praying for peace, then I support them 100%

I was more talking about " the tyrannical one world government" point.

Well I don't need Alex Jones to tell me where we are in the stream of time. I have prophecy a more sure word of understanding.

My point is if your protest vs an offender offends another, then you are no better then the ones you protest against. Thats a hypocrite.

j/c

EriK is right, the flag means more to Vets than most, but these players aren't protesting the flag, they are protesting the national anthem. They are not even protesting the anthem most know, they are protesting the versus never heard:

O say can you see, by the dawn’s early light,
What so proudly we hail’d at the twilight’s last gleaming,
Whose broad stripes and bright stars through the perilous fight
O’er the ramparts we watch’d were so gallantly streaming?
And the rocket’s red glare, the bombs bursting in air,
Gave proof through the night that our flag was still there,
O say does that star-spangled banner yet wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave?

On the shore dimly seen through the mists of the deep
Where the foe’s haughty host in dread silence reposes,
What is that which the breeze, o’er the towering steep,
As it fitfully blows, half conceals, half discloses?
Now it catches the gleam of the morning’s first beam,
In full glory reflected now shines in the stream,
’Tis the star-spangled banner—O long may it wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave!

And where is that band who so vauntingly swore,
That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion
A home and a Country should leave us no more?
Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution.
No refuge could save the hireling and slave
From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave,
And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

O thus be it ever when freemen shall stand
Between their lov’d home and the war’s desolation!
Blest with vict’ry and peace may the heav’n rescued land
Praise the power that hath made and preserv’d us a nation!
Then conquer we must, when our cause it is just,
And this be our motto – “In God is our trust,”
And the star-spangled banner in triumph shall wave
O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.

This particular bit is glorifying the killing of slaves that fled to the British to fight for freedom. It basically endorses slavery and indentured servitude. These things sound good to you?

Then one day the NFL announces that any and all players & coaches who own or use firearms will no longer be welcomed on any team.

I think people forget that prior to 2009 (when the Defense Department began paying the NFL to hold patriotic displays), NFL teams were not required to be on the field during the playing of the national anthem. If ya'll didn't complain about it prior to 2009, don't complain about it now.

This being said, I understand both sides. In addition to the articles already posted, here are a couple where some folks in the military are ok with it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/revelist/im-a-us-military-veteran_b_11782806.html

https://theundefeated.com/features/an-op...lin-kaepernick/

j/c:

Many are defending the players because they have the "right" to protest.

Yet, many of those same posters are ripping posters who are protesting the protest. Are only certain people allowed to "protest" an act, deed, or ideology that they think is wrong?

Sounds hypocritical to me.

I'm torn a little with this. What I mean by that is that many men and woman gave their lives for our country. But they did give so that someone can stand up (or kneel) in protest of a perceived injustice.

For me, this is the wrong venue for this action, but it does cause a stir.. We are talking about it. I'm sure that's what they desire.

The problem to it is there is more talk about the act of the protest and not about the reason for the protest.

Thinking to usurp God for a political agenda is just wrong. Christains should keep religion and politics as far away from each other as the east is from the west.

They are seperate kingdoms (swords).

yep that is what its about. Free speech from those who won't let others speak freely is what I've seen so far from the left...just me.

What happened in Charlotville has nothing to do with our national anthem nor who represents the conservatives who did petition for a peaceful protest. The minority of Nazi and KKK took the for front and the news didn't hide them that is for sure. Then a ban of protesters who had no permit came with Bats and clubs to cause mayhem and anarchy. Playing right into the hands of the Nazi's and KKK who are pieces of scum.

If they knelt because of that I object...cause the national anthem is about LIBERTY AND FREEDOM...how do you protest that???

Devalve...from Princeton the most liberal of colleges are in the IVY League and the father of liberalism Wilson of course is revered in Princeton.

Oh geeze how did I get started in this...lol

JMHO, happy Browns players didn't raise a fist in the air and didn't sit....praying for better world is classy in my book...a hand over your heart, standing tall is the best...
Hate and stupidity will always be with us, sad the news media has to use it to sell......2 and 0, WOW, Go Browns!!!!

This entire incident was pathetic. It had no measurable impact on racial tensions in the USA. It has created more division among those who took an opportunity to come and see the local football team play a game. The idea of praying for social unity as the reasoning for doing the act is transparent. The entire event was personal grandstanding by athletes who are employees of a football club.

The argument about exercising free speech is another straw man. You have a right to speak freely in the USA with the expectation that the government will not persecute you for your speech. It is not a blanket offer to have you say whatever you want whenever you want and not have consequences. The players who did this event are ignorant and short sighted. Do they not remember the uproar over the Crowell incident last season?

You are a 1-15 team from last season. You are trying to come together as a team and build team chemistry. I know what to do, let some of us kneel when the national anthem is being played. This will bring the team closer as a unit and build team chemistry. Who was the brilliant mind that came up with that? As the simple act as kneeling during the national anthem was meant to show unity with those who feel oppressed by American society, it has done nothing more than divide the team in a politically charged climate.

I am not the Cleveland Browns front office. I am not the owner of the team. I am not the coaching staff. However, if I had the authority to act against the players for this event, I would bench every one of them for the next game. I would not let them on the field. I would lose the game before I let one of them play. It was a political ploy in the midst of a politically charged environment while in the workplace. The protest had a direct impact on the image of the Cleveland Browns football team in the eyes of the fans. Come and do your job while you are at work players. I ask nothing more of you. What you do outside of work and while you are not representing the Cleveland Browns is your own business. What you do while working or wearing the Cleveland Browns uniform directly impacts on the image of the team. Your protest of the national anthem shows that you are not a Cleveland Brown player when you put the uniform on, it shows that the uniform is only a means for you to make a political statement. Saddened by the entire mess.

Voleur

Playing devil's advocate here...the players decided to exercise their freedoms, and yet there are many on this site critizing them for it. How is that any different?

Maybe they would make more of an impact if they held a prayer meeting in the communities that are the most effected by the problem, all the players feeling the need to get involve would all gather on a non football day.

They could pray educate and make donations to the neighborhoods.

1. I didn't even see/know about this until I read it here.
2. My disgruntle is more with the Left media and the Liberals who talk freedom of speech but don't practice it.

3. I don't really see anything real wrong as long as it doesn't divide our locker room. I just think they should find a better way of expressing their freedom and rights then to turn themselves away from the National Anthem or our Flag.

4. The insult to Veterans is tremendous I hope they realize this hurts them.

jmho and wont do politics on a sports board again.

Look I worked in a steel mill for 20 years and if I would have knelt down and protested something while on the job I would have been fired on the spot ... Just Sayin'

I share your pain, thanks for your testimony.

I should have mentioned that this wasn't a question to you specifically, it was a question to the board.

My point in playing devil's advocate is that it is the same with the right, and the same with those of us in the middle. We get so caught up in our beliefs and don't always realize we're doing the same thing.

Regarding the insult to Vets, I'm sure many are. I also know based on some articles posted previous to this posting, that some are ok with it, as the freedoms the players are exercising are exactly what they've fought for.

Since we are playing Devil's Advocate:

Are you suggesting that people don't have the right to protest a protest? Do we have to all say.........."that's great, guys?"

Do we not have the right to voice our opinion that we think it is not the proper way to make a statement? Or, are only certain people afforded the right to protest the actions of others?

And while you may not be suggesting that, there are others on this board making angry, emotional statements against those who are voicing their opinion on the matter.

Once again, I find it hypocritical. We should all have the right to free speech, rather than just those who belong to one's individual side.

By dishonoring the very object that gives them this freedom? This makes no sense.

The numerous sad and disappointed posts on this thread are proof the Browns are in trouble.

This should not have happened. It’s a breakdown of team leadership, communication, discipline and focus.

Knowledgeable posters know either Hue Jackson and/or Jimmy Haslam are ultimately to blame.

This is a major setback to our hopes of a high caliber NFL team.

Simple as that.

To those saying "It's the player's right" - that's just stupid.

https://medium.com/@VetsForKaep/an-open-...ns-cda9bffb764c

My big issue w/these turds is the word "oppression." They are multimillionaires. Many came from a very poor environment. How badly can they be oppressed if they have made such a dramatic jump on the economic ladder?

One might argue they are paid because of their athletic talent and while that is true, I have worked for School Superintendents that were black. They rose to the top of their profession. There are black mayors and other highly placed in political offices. There are black CEO's, attorneys, judges, engineers. Hell, we even had a black president for 8 years!

Oppression? Pffffttttttttttt.........

It irks me that so many blacks do not appreciate the opportunities they have in this great country.

Yes, we have problems in this country and not everyone is fair and unbiased. But, that is true everywhere.

Make a difference. Do what guys like LeBron are doing. Speaking out, starting foundations, etc.

To me..........these guys are simply saying a big F...You to the country that afforded them a lucrative and unique opportunity.

And as an American, I am thankful that I have the "right" to express my opinion on the matter!

Thing is...some people in here said Crowell should have been cut, kicked out of the league and some even went further with their criticisms. However, during the 1-15 season there was a long thread on Crowell's breakout season where many were praising him. There was also a lengthy thread about Crowell's tender and contract extension and worries if and when he would sign with us or maybe somebody else. Again, I am willing to bet some of his loudest critics last offseason were praising him and hoping he would stay a Cleveland Brown.

Point is...this freakout about players protesting will all be wasted energy and add up to nothing once we kick off against the Steelers. Especially if we win but, also once any of the 12 protesting players has a great game or season. If and when that happens I'm pretty sure the "get out of jail free" card will be handed out by some of today's critics.

I'm not suggesting that, and I agree with your statement.

TY.

How many are old enough to have been spit on?

You talk as if some have condemned these young men for life. Nay, I just think it was an ill-advised action.

I read some of those comments when they were made last season. I also do not doubt that many of the protesting players will be given a "get out of jail free" card as put it, if they have a good season. That only makes things worse in the end. The players disrespected the fans and the team itself when they chose the time and place to protest as the stadium and during the national anthem.

I noticed that most of the players who participated are considered building blocks for an up and coming team. They feel safe in their protest as they either signed extensions or where high draft picks recently added to the team. In a league full of majority minority players, making a relatively nice salary, voluntarily might I add to play a game for a living, the players feel emboldened to act stupidly and may I say condescendingly towards the teams fans.

I do not remember seeing Crowell participating in the protest. Perhaps I am wrong in this. However, Crowell should have learned a lesson as should have all players on the Browns team, that the fan base of the team does not appreciate this sort of activity from the players. It was either a calculated attack on the values of the fans of the team or it was a misguided attempt to bring unity to the team. I would like to think that it was the later and it failed miserably rather than to think that the players have contempt for the fans and believe themselves morally and dare I say spiritually more evolved than the fans who find this display offensive at worse and inappropriate at the least.

The big dumb jock stereotype was on it's deathbed. This sort of stunt has brought it back from the brink. What stupid, ignorant, condescending, arrogant, and self righteous bigots do we have playing for the Browns?

No idea, most of the 30 or 40 seem to be from post 911 based on the article. Some say gulf war, others just say Veteran. IMHO, it doesn't matter, especially if they served in a war zone.

Veterans are an extension of our society, so we are allowed to have varied opinion's as is the next guy.

Absolutely true

I don't agree w/them kneeling, but that is over the top.

For years I've had to listen to friends who are steeler fans tell me what an embarrassment the browns are...today I had to agree with them.

Well said and quite ironic.

In general I don't understand how quickly you and other have launched into canned positions, everything is polarized alt-left etc. no dialogue or an actual attempt or intent to understand why.

What would compel people who by their own comments support everything you claim they don't?

What would compel them to draw the nations focus.

I bet their answer would be very similar to the words you chose above: 'some see what others choice to not look at, because the truth is too painful'


If I have a critique for them is that their message and intent should be crystalized so there is no confusion.

I know they are calling attention to social injustice, particularly in the African-American community and they should convey that more clearly.

And once they have peoples attention....Now what? They must use the attention to effect positive change.

quote above by FL:



The reason there's so many deeply disappointed Browns fans is that this incident arose due to the team culture.

There is a big problem with the Browns team culture.

Top professionals leave their feelings at the door.

There's a job to do.

Social statements do not belong on the field.

There's plenty a player can do on their own time to advance their beliefs. But that's hard work and cuts into their personal fun time.

This was highly unprofessional and ultimately the Browns management is to blame.

My opinion of Hue Jackson as an effective NFL coach went from a 6 out of 10, to a 2 out of 10 last night.

Curious as to why you asked if they are old enough to have been spit on?

That would give them another prospective and dig up some old bones.

What would have been so hard for the players to honor their cause with a moment of prayer at the 50 at say half time? That wouldn't have affended anyone in the process. That is the epitome of a peaceful protest.

You can't honor something by dishonoring the very object that gives you the rights to protest. That is a dog chasing it's own tail.

This country has NEVER truly respected the term 'All Me Are Created Equal." Issue #1


All of those things are in progress... Ask any black man in the state of Mississippi how they feel when walking in a white neighborhood. Ask a woman if she feels as an equal to each and every man in the workforce 100% of the time. The original founders had an easy job of writing down something on a piece of paper. It always sounds good, but the reality of the situation is our country was built on genocide; built by the blood and tears of those who look different than any man on a dollar bill.



There is no proper or appropriate place to protest. Protests aren't meant to be convenient for everyone.



Have you ever held a management position? You can't control anyone. As a human being, we have the free right to do ANYTHING, whether it be right or wrong.



I must say, I am actually super proud of DeValve. It's tough enough to be in an interracial marriage, but to hear him say "i myself will be raising children that won't look like me, and I want to do my part as well to do everything I can to raise them in a better environment than what we have right now."... It's easy to marry someone and somewhat ignore the racial differences, but to go to bat for his kids, and wife too.. Says a lot in my book. White men who take up for Blacks get more hate than Blacks themselves. I got an email of a notification on my Devalve 2017 catch video I made, and it says "Devalve can be a cop hater if he wants to. Pay the price." Like wtf does that mean? Our country has a long way to go. Sad I have to say that even in 2017.

I don't know...I think that this an issue for those above his pay grade, but perhaps he has been given full liberty on the issue IDK.

I am in an interracial marriage and I don't approve of disrespecting your country.

I believe in trying to change things by positive acts rather than disrespectful acts.

I believe in trying to bridge the divide rather than alienating the other side.

I believe that multimillionaires calling the United States "oppressive" is a crock of crap!

Opportunities are there for all those who seek them and are willing to work for them. Like I said earlier, we had a black president win two elections. I voted for him both times. An "oppressive" country has a black president? Please...........

I wonder about the percentage of blacks who didn't vote for Obama in the two elections as opposed to the percentage of whites who didn't vote for the white candidate? Yet, all we hear is how whites are racists. LOL

I wonder who would be safer........a black man walking through a white community or a white man walking through a black community?

I have fought for the rights and tried to help minorities most of my life, but the pendulum has swung in the other direction.

And most whites are afraid to speak up lest they be branded as "racist" by racists.

Oh, and here is news for you. According to a recent poll, more whites are more tolerant of groups on the alt-right than they were before all the BS crap that was reported about Charlottlesville.

Your losing many of us who were actually on your side by your constant complaining, whining, violence, and finger pointing.

Good luck to you.

[/quote]

Starting a race war. What else? Now, before you---or anyone else goes balistic------I chastised 40 yesterday for talking such nonsense.

Y'all we're dangerously close to it happening. Do you know how freaking dumb and debilitating that would be to almost all of us?

Good God.............it's time to come together as a nation! Furthering the divide will hurt us all. It will have devastating effects on the innocent.

We need to bridge the divide!

Just because the majority disagree doesn't mean they are right. Again, people use to do peaceful sit-ins during segregation times, yet the majority thought it was disrespectful and inappropriate; to the point where food was thrown in their face, punches were thrown, and lots of verbally abusive language was used.



What does your background have to do with me using this as an example?



Again, majority doesn't mean much to me based on the history of our country. Social injustice is wrong, and if someone is upset because i'm taking a respectful knee in a plea for help, so be it.



I agree, wholeheartedly. I'm not aware of every single one of those players efforts in the community, but most of those guys give their time to the community outside of what the Browns make them do. Sooooo....



This comment here irks me. So we have one black president, and all of a sudden we should be happy, and settle for the nonsense that still goes on in this country? Cmon man. I know you are better than that.



Did you vote for him because he was black, or because he won your vote?



No one is blaming whites for everything. This is about social injustice. Period.



There are definitely instances in which a double standard takes place. I can admit to that no problem. However, our history of suffering in this country is the reason for it.



Do you also look at who gets profiled the most? Do you also look at who kills the most whites? As far as those who aren't working and always having their hands out. See this Link and share your thoughts.



There is no violence with what these guys are doing. How is this starting a race war? Again, I know you are better than this type of thinking. You are much smarter.

We see the same things through different eyes. Thanks for the conversation.

Ohio Supreme Court justice blasts Browns over anthem protest

http://fox8.com/2017/08/23/ohio-supreme-court-justice-blasts-browns-over-anthem-protest/

COLUMBUS, Ohio — An Ohio Supreme Court justice is criticizing some Cleveland Browns players who prayed in silent protest during the national anthem before a game.

Justice Bill O’Neill writes on Facebook he won’t attend any games at which “draft dodging millionaire athletes disrespect the veterans who earned them the right to be on that field.” He said Tuesday “shame on you all.”

Bill O'Neill
on Tuesday

Congratulations Cleveland Browns on your win. Unfortunately my season ended last night. I will NEVER attend a sporting event where the draft dodging millionaire athletes disrespect the veterans who earned them the right to be on that field. Shame on you all. William O'Neill, LTC, US Army, Retired. Vietnam veteran; son of a World II veteran; proud father of an Iraq veteran.

O’Neill notes he’s a Vietnam veteran whose family has a history of military service. He’s also the lone Democrat holding a statewide office in Ohio.

More than a dozen Browns players kneeled and formed a circle on the sideline during the anthem Monday. Tight end Seth DeValve says he wanted “to pray for our country.”

Browns linebacker Christian Kirksey talked to FOX 8 News on Tuesday, and said, “Respect to all the veterans, respect to the military — we are not protesting against them. We have our reasons for doing what we did, and last night felt like the right time to do it, and that’s why we did it.”

The protest was the largest in a social-consciousness movement started last season by San Francisco 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick currently a free agent.

Do you have kids from this marriage?

This whole respect the anthem, the flag and the army is very fascist in my eyes.

IMHO, there shouldn't be holy cows, and if you want them you have to respect the other's guys cows also

Just saying

Well the only problem with that is there hasn't been a draft since the early 70's and he probably voted for a real draft dodger to be president.

Other than that I see his point.

According to what several black folks told me after I went walking through a bad section of downtown Detriot at night by myself it would be the black man who was safer. But I didn't feel unsafe at all.

Interesting.
I think safety is proportional to the threat the respective community perceives.

These players have all kinds of avenues they could pursue that actuallly would MAKE A DIFFERENCE!

You don't see none of these trashcans at inner city schools talking to kids trying to change their futures. You don't see any of them at your local soup kitchens helping poor people. You don't see them being part of non-profit groups advocating change on the local, state, and federal government levels.

Instead they decide to be un-american and insult the people who died for this country.

This is going to cost the Browns a lot of money. People are pissed...Facebook is literally eight people mad for every one comment defending them. Haslam is going to have to get out in front of this and soon.

When you have an Ohio Supreme Court Judge speaking out against you, its pretty bad...this is about as bad as the ignorant picture Crowell posted last year

http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2016/07/...slit-black-man/

They should have cut Crowell the minute that became news, gone, see ya, don't give a damn how good you are, gone. thats simply not tolerated here.

The Browns are making some pretty big mistakes...Haslam is going to have to get out in front of this, and soon....

I don't know...

I think that the number of murders, rapes, robberies, thefts, muggings, etc that are documented by police reports is fairly concrete and trumps "perception."

...How is this guy a Supreme Court Justice?

I guess not being born until 10 years after the last one is instituted is one way to "dodge the draft".

It's also supposed to be his job to uphold the Constitution which gives the players the right to do what they did.

Is it how I would have protested? No, but I liked it a lot better than most protests anymore. Not a bunch of anger and hate or one guy saying look at me.

The flag is a symbol, and as happens with symbols they mean different things to different people and that meaning can change. At the moment, some people equate the flag with Trump and issues that are occurring in our country. Saluting that strife doesn't make much sense. I don't feel that way, but if I tied those things together, I wouldn't be standing either.

Good grief.
That has got to be the most idiotic EXCUSE I have heard to date.

Clinton?

He may have voted for him too for all I know.

My guess is he voted for Hillary.

Duke Johnson Jr. started his own charitable foundation before he had played his first NFL game. Supports youth sports.

Jabril Peppers won the Ronnie Lott IMPACT award, given to student athletes demonstrating a commitment on the field, in the classroom and to the community.

Calvin Pryor was a mainstay with NY charities in his years there, helping both women’s causes and charities to provide food to the underprivileged.

Jamar Taylor runs football camps for kids in the offseason. Has been working with the Toys for Tots campaign in Cleveland

Seth DeValve took the opportunity of his number being retired at his high school to turn it into a fundraiser for a long-time school security guard who had recently passed. Raised thousands for the man’s family.

Kenny Britt donated thousands to people and businesses affected by the Ferguson riots. And yes, he protested against that too.

Christian Kirksey held the third annual Strikes for Kids charity bowling event literally THE DAY AFTER the prayer ker-fuffle.

Isaiah Crowell admitted he made a mistake in the Instagram mess, donated his game check to Fallen Officers fund, attended the funeral of one of the policemen that were shot and spent a day meeting with various officers, apologizing for what he’d done, explaining himself and trying to learn more from the police perspective.

But yeah...none of these guys do anything worthwhile.

You don't like how they protested. Fine...that's your prerogative and you're free to your opinion. But when you start spewing things that just ain't true to make these men seem like good-for-nothings - that ain't right.

I didn't comment on your last post because I felt that their chosen mode of protest had burned you deeply because of personal losses and I can respect that. Now you're just talking nonsense and that, plus your ridiculous posting history, makes me hope that maybe you are done with this team so we can be free of your buffoonery.

j/c:

Meanwhile, our team was 1 and 15 last year, picked to finish in the cellar once again, and our guys are making headlines not for their play on the field, but for their protest.

Awesome.

Protest will be a footnote in another few days.

AND the Browns will start making headlines with an opening day victory over the Pittsburgh Steelers! (I just got a feeling...the opening day curse is ready to die)

Why does it matter? What's the minimum of games won before you can act on a cause, regardless of the way you protest?

I get your point, but if they had won 3, 5, 7 or 9 games last year, would it change anything on this board? I think the same people ticked off would still be ticked off.

I don't know about beating Pittsburgh. I don't know about their focus on coming together as a team.

Earlier in the week, Hue said something like he hoped that his players wouldn't take a knee during the anthem. He got blasted by it by S. Sharpe.

Of course, our players respond not by defending and honoring Hue's request, but staging the single largest [numbers wise] protest that we've seen yet.

LOL.........it's tragically comical how screwy this team is every year.

I think I just addressed it in a response to Canada. Let me know if you need more. I will try to expound a bit.

If your intent is simply to mock my opinion, then by all means, fire away.

k

Not mocking at all, just asking. I saw a few people blasting the Browns on Facebook the same way, "win 8 games and then you can talk" or "learn to play in the 4th quarter and then protest away". Michael Bennet sat for the Seahawks recently, was he given a pass because Seattle is a good team?

Either the protest is offensive for how they did it or not, I don't think what your record is softens or strengthens it.

Okay.

I wasn't clear. I did not mean that you have to win a certain amount of games to be able to protest. LOL I'm crazy, but not stupid.

Having played and coached, I know it is very difficult to turn a losing team around. You gotta change the culture. We've all heard that before. You need a complete "buy-in" of everyone. You need to do a lot of self-sacrificing. You have to put the team ahead of yourself. You must be completely focused on winning and making yourself and the team better. You really must unite as a team by having a single purpose.

Hue addressed the situation before the protest. He got beat up in the media for it.

How did our team respond? By coming together and having a united front that stood right there w/Hue or by planning and partaking in a pretty large protest where we had a dozen or so participating and others standing?

I am not saying you have to agree w/my line of thinking, but I don't think what they did is good for the "team."

And one thing we have learned over the years from many great coaches is that if you don't put the team first, then you really don't belong here.

Well said. Gotcha.

I have stayed out of this whole situation, but I want to add my thoughts.

The Browns players were trying to draw attention to themselves. That's OK, but I would have rather seen them be respectful during the anthem, and then have their group prayer (which I fully support) either before, or after the anthem, and not during it.

I respect their right to protest, but it does disturb me when someone chooses to do so during the national anthem. Of course, most people at home stay seated during the anthem, or get snacks, or any number of other activities.

I hope that they use their protest for good. That's really my biggest hope.

Ironically, Justice O'Neill is a former civil rights attorney.

Just saw Seth DeValve's wife make a statement ... kind of an odd, complex statement .. basically saying not to give her husband attention

Wife of Seth DeValve: Focusing on my husband distracts from cause
4:27 PM ET

Pat McManamonESPN Staff Writer

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BEREA, Ohio -- While proud of her husband for kneeling in prayer with his Cleveland Browns teammates during the national anthem, Erica Harris DeValve said the focus should be on racism and that he should not be looked on as a "white savior" Monday night.

Seth DeValve, a second-year tight end, knelt with 11 African-American players on Monday night in what they called a moment to pray for the nation in light of racial injustice.

Editor's Picks

12 Browns players take knee during anthem

A dozen Browns players knelt in a circle to pray during the national anthem before Monday night's preseason game. Several other players stood nearby and put their hands on a kneeling teammate's shoulder.

"To center the focus of Monday's demonstration solely on Seth is to distract from what our real focus should be: listening to the experiences and the voices of the black people who are using their platforms to continue to bring the issue of racism in the U.S. to the forefront," she wrote in a post for TheRoot.com.

"Seth, as a white individual, never has and never will truly have to feel the weight and burden of racial discrimination and racial oppression. No white person does or will. But all white people should care and take a stand against its prevalence in this country. What I hope to see from this is a shift in the conversation to Seth's black teammates, who realistically have to carry that burden all the time."

Erica Harris DeValve is an African-American woman who will begin working toward her master's degree in theology from Fuller Theological Seminary this fall, with a focus on the intersection of race and Christianity.

"Black players in the NFL cannot just turn their concern on and off in order to be able to focus more on football," she wrote. "White players shouldn't, either. Racism is a day-to-day reality, and I hope that, instead of holding Seth up on a pedestal, the response will be to do what he did: listen to the voices of the black people in your life, and choose to support them as they seek to make their voices heard.

"To the people who are looking at pictures of us and saying, 'Oh, well, that makes sense,' I offer a dramatic eye roll. People on Twitter have insinuated that it's simply my appearance that inspired Seth to kneel with his teammates, or that I must've threatened Seth with leaving him or refusing to have sex with him if he didn't join the demonstration. To even joke in this way is gross."

Seth DeValve said he and his teammates -- linebacker Chris Kirksey led the group in prayer -- had not discussed whether they would continue kneeling at future games. Seth DeValve avoided social media since Monday, but said the reactions he received were mixed.

"Guys support each other on and off the field," he said. "We care about each and each other's lives. I myself care about this subject. I care about the guys that wanted to take a stand on this subject. That's my role, first and foremost is to be an ally to them and play a supportive role.

"Like I've told some other people, the opinions on the topic of racism in America has been mixed for a couple hundred years. So it's to be expected."

Erica Harris DeValve wrote that her husband understands the issue and that it was the "responsible" thing to do.

"Seth understands how racism systematically oppresses people across this entire nation," she wrote. "He understands that to be complacent about it is not just unacceptable as a 'black wife's' husband; Seth supported his teammates because it was the right thing to do, it was the godly thing to do and it was the responsible thing to do. If I were white, he should have done the same, and I am confident that he would have."

http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20446...ed-white-savior

Tim Rohan
✔
@TimRohan

Here are the t-shirts that NAACP groups will be weaing at today's Colin Kaepernick rally outside NFL headquarters in NYC
4:46 PM - Aug 23, 2017

Yep, Mrs. DeValve.....blacks are the only victims of racism.

GMAFB!

Fiancée of Akron officer killed has message for Browns players who kneel during anthem

Video on webpage.

AKRON, Ohio-- It's been nearly three years since police officer Justin Winebrenner died during a shooting at an Akron bar.

Winebrenner, 32, was off-duty and tried to defuse the situation when an angry customer returned with a gun. The seven-year veteran of the Akron Police Department was shot twice while protecting others. Four more people were hurt during the shooting.

Winebrenner was a Cleveland Browns season ticket holder and a lifelong fan. That's why his fiancée, Tiffany Miller, is so upset by Browns players choosing to kneel during the national anthem.

A dozen members of the Browns knelt in prayer on Monday night before their game against the New York Giants. It was the largest group of NFL players to not stand during the anthem since former 49ers quarterback Colin Kaepernick started his protest a year ago.

Miller shared her disappointment in the team and organization in a Facebook post on Wednesday.

"After saving my life and who knows how many others, the Cleveland Browns organization sent a custom jersey with Justin's last name stitched on the day of his funeral. Each year since his passing, I've saved for months to purchase our same seats. To be there on Sundays knowing he's watching with me. I've given his seat to his father, family, friends, brothers in blue & my favorite date, his daughter Charlee Ayn. Altogether I attended 13 Browns games last season searching for the smile that they once brought him & I.

"After purchasing my tickets this year, watching the kneeling members of the team bring me anything but that. To the players & fans who don't agree with standing for our country and anthem, I am creating this to show you just who you are offending. Had I not already purchased our seats for this season I wouldn't have & if this behavior continues and is allowed I will not next year."




5 years ago this Man & I purchased our first set of season tickets for the Cleveland Browns. We clapped, cheered and even cussed on Sundays up in Cleveland. I have some of my most incredible memories on game days by the lake with my fiancé. On November 16, 2014, we missed the home game.

After saving my life and who knows how many others, the Cleveland Browns organization sent a custom jersey with Justin's last name stitched on the day of his funeral. Each year since his passing, I've saved for months to purchase our same seats. To be there on Sundays knowing he's watching with me. I've given his seat to his father, family, friends, brothers in blue & my favorite date, his daughter Charlee Ayn. Altogether I attended 13 Browns games last season searching for the smile that they once brought him & I.

After purchasing my tickets this year, watching the kneeling members of the team bring me anything but that. To the players & fans who don't agree with standing for our country and anthem, I am creating this to show you just who you are offending. Had I not already purchased our seats for this season I wouldn't have & if this behavior continues and is allowed I will not next year.

I've emailed this to the reps, management, coaches & front office of our "beloved Browns". As diehard & loyal fans I encourage all of you to help me share this and get this message across.

WE ARE FREE BECAUSE OF THE BRAVE.

FALLEN BUT NEVER FORGOTTEN 1301

Miller said she contacted the Cleveland Browns and received a response from vice president of communications. FOX 8 News reached out to the organization for comment.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/ho...070a_story.html

So, Master Tesfatsion covers the Washington Redskins for The Washington Post and then writes an article glorifying players protesting the anthem due to racism.

Now CHS.............that is hysterical.

Everyone has their own experiences in life that mold and shape the way they view things...

Also the thought of someone naming their kid "master".

Could Browns be considered racist because it mentions a color....is Whites racist.

JMHO, our national anthem mentions...land of free and home of the brave- so YOU don't want prayer during national anthem- yet our fellow citizens- laugh, sit, ignore, eat,..etc., is our country free or does everyone HAVE TO stand and put their hand over their heart....and without their hat.

As a vet, I welcome flag burning if that person FEELs they must burn our flag to make a statement. I don't agree with it, but they have that right.....thank God.

When I go to a sporting event, I'd like not to hear all the cursing/swear words- but that's another topic.....GO Browns!!!!

Besides let get to the crux of it:

the whole "Blacks are shot more by cops then whites" is simply BS.

The rest of this article is full of nonsense typical liberal spin BS of why "more white people are shot by cops then blacks every year" means black people are oppressed nonsense.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post...ice-yes-but-no/

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/police-shootings-2017/



Far more white people are shot and killed by police every year in the USA then Blacks...infact more whites are shot and killed by police then any other race.

however, like the disrespectful Browns players...continue feeling soorry for yourselves, and continue to whine and cry that more blacks are shot by cops then anyone else when the factual data says otherwise.

More whites are shot and killed by police then any other race and no ones gives a damn, lets continue to to kneel and disrespect the the flag because the liberal media lies aand twists the facts to paint a picture that only blacks are killed by the police and thats simply BS and not true.

Just like the Washington post...it relaly sucks when the facts show Whites are killed by police more then anyone else, but don't let facts get in the way of a good protest...keep getting people fired up over BS causes.

Had Micheal Brown in Ferguson been white no one would have batted an eye lash, the news wouldn't even had flipping mentioned it....

j/c...wish I had written this but I simply read it and it depicts my views probably closer than anything I've read out there.

“If you think the country can be better, stand for the ideal. If you think the answer is people showing unity, stand with them. The anthem is not the national police song. The anthem is not the national racists song. The anthem is an exercise in how this country can endure and rise, how we can agree on its future potential, even while struggling with its present. The anthem’s words depict a flag that is suffering through bombs and rockets.
You could easily view those bombs and rockets as the challenges our democracy faces today, and the flag a symbol of rising above them.”

Let’s stand united against terrorists, against racism, against white supremacists, against killing of cops, against police brutality, against sex slave trafficking.. against anything that is not the ideal for this country.

Let’s unite in the fact that God made us all unique and different and that is something we should cherish. You can disagree with me and that is totally ok.. let’s use this forum to discuss (not yell at each other) and listen to one another.



A tweet from Kelly Stafford (Matt Stafford's wife) she's beautiful and smart if you ask me.

jmho

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/08/25/jim...te-my-flag.html

Jim Brown criticizes Kaepernick-style protests: 'I don't desecrate my flag'

Jim Brown criticizes Colin Kaepernick's method of protest

Pro Football Hall of Famer and Cleveland Browns legend Jim Brown panned current football players who choose to protest during the playing of the Star Spangled Banner, saying “I don’t desecrate my flag and my national anthem.”

Brown, who fought for social causes throughout his career, told ThePostGame.com he empathizes with jobless quarterback Colin Kaepernick, who began the trend of kneeling during the anthem last season when he played for the San Francisco 49ers. But Brown said Kaepernick and other players who demonstrate – such as a dozen Cleveland players who knelt Monday – are going about their crusade the wrong way.

“I’m going to give you the real deal: I’m an American,” Brown said. “I don’t desecrate my flag and my national anthem. I’m not gonna do anything against the flag and national anthem. I’m going to work within those situations. But this is my country, and I’ll work out the problems, but I’ll do it in an intelligent manner.”

Kaepernick began to kneel in order to protest what he alleged was an increasing spate of police brutality against minorities. Brown said he wants to be in Kaepernick’s “corner” on the demonstration, but he suggested the act hadn’t been thought through.

“If you have a cause, I think you should organize it, present it in a manner where it's not only you standing or sitting on one knee, but a lot of people that is gonna get behind each other and do something about it,” Brown said. “If I ask you one question: Who is Colin calling on to follow what he's talking about?”

Brown also acknowledged players should try to honor the wishes of the team owners who are paying them millions of dollars.

“Colin has to make up his mind whether he's truly an activist or he's a football player,” Brown said. “Football is commercial. You have owners. You have fans. And you want to honor that if you're making that kind of money…”

Brown added: “You have to understand there's intelligence that's involved, OK? I can't be two things at once that contradict each other. If I sign for money, then the people I sign with, they have rules and regulations.”

quote in above article by Jim Brown



BINGO!

Thanks Diam

Sacred cows and idols...

We all have them, we just have to step back.

I don't even think the intention was to slaughter the cow or smash the idols?

Apparently we are not that far from the Charlie Hebdo episode

Brown can be a little nutty sometimes...but he makes good points here.

The whole qualm I have with the Kap thing is...did people all of a sudden forget that he didn't vote in the last election?

If you protest something, and don't actively try to change what you're protesting, you look like you're just trying to grab attention.

Not sure if I believe Jim Browns words or not. He could have been told to make those statements to hopefully connect with the players so they will possibly change their ways.

Then you don't know the man Jim Brown!

the woman beater?

Interesting posit.

Though, I'd guess at his age he wants to say or do things to help humanity.

And yeah, telling Jim Brown to do something is probably not gonna work.

I do like that you are tempting to get to what you believe is the heart of the matter.

But let's not go into you canned arguments. You introduce your own claim and then argued against it, that is the definition of a straw man.

But if you truly intend to get to the heart of the matter the only "BS" IC is making an argument Formosa tistical perspective that doesn't take into account the actual demographics there are more white people than black people so of course more white people get shot by police. That is a straw man.

So to get to the heart of the matter of what YOU were saying would require looking at the number of deaths by police by percentage. This should be obvious to anyway wishing to speak accurately on the matter (that you brought up)

If you're so inclined I would be curious to find your results by % especially in the case of unarmed black men being shot by police versus unarmed white man shot by police.

(Lol forgive the voice to text)

If you saw a man that appears to be throwing the flag into a body of water and dragging it through the water would you be upset?




If upon further inspection that man was using the flag to rescue a drowning man would you still be upset?

I'm kind of a little all over the place on this topic.

When to Kap I think he's mostly a douche bag who decided to champion a cause because he heard something somewhere, and thinks the larger his afro the more it proves his "blackness". He isn't being blackballed (ugh... I feel bad for feeling like there's a bad pun in there ) because of his views or because he kneeled. Lesean McCoy has it dead right: Kap is essentially a bad job candidate.

His skills have diminished and aren't nearly enough to be worth a team or organization's effort to have to deal with all the non-job related drama he would come with.

Trying to blame white oppression or claim white people aren't being more supportive of these actions is asinine. How many millions of dollars have white fans spent on a black player's jersey and proudly worn it because that player represents their team?

And let's face it Dawgs, it's not like any of us stand up at home or at the bar when it plays either.

Being a Vet and a cop, honestly I'm not all that offended by them kneeling. I just care that little about their opinions. I am disappointed though because I tune in to a football game to get away from all the other nonsense in the world.

Kneeling during the anthem is just stupid because that action offends way more people than will be convinced to hear what you have to say. Doubly so because it's not like they are using it to bring attention to something no one has heard before.

I won't bag on any of these guys for being hipocrits either though. I know they do an awful lot of charity work through the team and NFL as it is. My only real problem is with the NFL and their inconsistency. They have no problem letting players kneel, but last season denied the Cowboys from wearing a small sticker or patch to commemorate the Dallas officers killed last year at the march.

I am in the market for a jersey this year, I simply won't buy any of theirs. But I'll still be tuning in on Sundays, and I'll still be freezing my butt off in December at the Ravens game.

Jim Brown is an activist with a track record of real work for people. He is a legend and a class act. Good for him to speak up like this.

Thing is ed, the factoid about there being more white people than black people, so there for more whit people would be killed IS the fact that few of these players or people who believe in what they are saying/doing typically ignore.

As for unarmed, it's naïve to think that unarmed doesn't mean they didn't pose a deadly threat. If I am strangling you with my bare hands, I'm unarmed aren't I? I'm posing a deadly threat, aren't I? So the whole "unarmed black man" narrative is a purposefully vague narrative being repeated to evoke a specific emotional response, not a logical or rational one.

As for percentages...

The stats show that per population:
-offenders are disproportionately black
-victims are disproportionately black

there for one can reasonably conclude the amount of contacts with police disproportionately involve black people (offenders and victims).

So it stands to reason these deadly encounters will also be disproportionate.

What's interesting is we often here this claim in these cases that the cop shot the dude because he was black, and being black made the cop afraid.

1) there was a study done that showed cops were more hesitant to shoot a black suspect than a white suspect...

2) while the stats may say that a black man is 2x as likely to be killed by a cop than someone of another demographic, that SAME study shows that a cop is 18x more likely to be killed by a black offender than by any other demographic.

Augh! I didn't want to go down this road. I think I'm just going to go back in to exile until the Week 1 "What I Saw Thread"

If I am at any event where the Anthem is LIVE stand up hand over heart...at home I tend to just sing along(badly) and at a sports bar more just silent. But definitely any time it's live you bet show that respect!

When was he CONVICTED of that?

And to me truly believing for the flag means more the just literally standing up when it's played at football game.

This great country means so much, so much more then just that.

I wish people would listen to each other, this whole situation is reminder that at the end of the day there isn't a true sense of community and people don't really care that much about each other in a collective sense.

None of that stuff has ever happened where I live, it's a multiracial neighborhood we have minor issuers here and there but we all get along for the most part. I guess it was the way we were raised.

More of this is needed...

Quote above by DevilDawg2847:



Wrong friend. You don’t speak for me or my friends.



The Southern New England Browns Backers standing for the National Anthem at Buffalo Wild Wings.

Thank U so much ... I've always wanted to know those stats ... especially the one abouta cop being 18% more likely to be shot by a black man ... i wonder why u NEVER EVER hear that stat ...

Thanks again for those numbers .. very very informative... especially after reading through eds bs stats ... he kept talking about straw man arguments when his post was full of irrelivent stats ... it showed one of the many reasons that .... STATS ARE FOR ,,,,,

U can make any argument based off the stats u pick and choose to use regardless of their actual relevance to the premise your trying to prove ...

Thanks again ... im happy u decided to share them ...

Are military members allowed to participate in political protests? Yes, they are.

Are military members allowed to wear their uniforms when doing so? No, they are not.

Same reasoning should apply here; don't make political statements while wearing the uniform of an organization that doesn't agree with your statement. If you want to say something, do it when not representing the Cleveland Browns.

End of discussion.

Did you support Jim Browns statement one year ago when he said he supports Colin Kaepernick 100%?

Maybe you missed my point from before.

This 'factoid' that you and the other poster mention is a strawman.

strawman (noun)

1.an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.


The argument you make that more white people are killed by cops then black people is a strawman argument.

First no one in this thread made that argument. YOU and another poster made that argument.

Second that argument gets the facts wrong. Anyone with even rudimentary understanding of stats knows that looking at numbers without regard to percentage is meaningless.

Repeating this false argument doesn't support your point, rather it shows that you are ignoring the actual facts about a claim that YOU introduced.

And to be clear, right now all I am doing here is correcting your false facts. I'm not making my point....yet.
But to continue this dialogue without 1st getting on the same page factually doesn't make sense.

So from this point forward when you repeat these false facts you are either showing a lack of understanding of the stats or willfully intending to misrepresent them.



It is naïve to assume that people don't understand that every case is different, and you are remiss in that your instruction regarding 'unarmed black man' applies equally to 'unarmed white man'. The facts are this:



https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post...m=.09445417930c


Nothing wrong with going down 'this road' but if you are going down this road do so with accuracy and honesty.

If you want to continue this dialogue I will address the other points in your post later but I don't want to generate too large of a block of text that most are unlikely to read. But, some of the points and issues you bring up are true and lead to the even more tricky question of why?

Cheers all the same.