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#1702606 - 12/04/19 03:39 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
willitevachange Offline
Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/07/17
Posts: 8945
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Because fans only see what they want to see and only believe what they want to believe. Even when the man in charge of it all tells them the truth up front.

“I ask the fans to exercise a degree of patience,” he said. “We are building this thing to last 10 years, not just have one good year.” - John Dorsey
I guess the term Actions speak louder than words never came across in your town huh?

Name me something Dorsey has done that was for the future, and not to win now.

I also like how you completely disregarded the fact that there have been over a dozen 1st HC that were successful with less talent. You are very good at skirting things.

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#1702608 - 12/04/19 03:40 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
MemphisBrownie Offline

Legend

Registered: 03/01/13
Posts: 11881
Loc: Southern Shores of Lake Erie
The irony pours out again!

You should make that quote your next signature.
_________________________
"We'll see how much Brat...errr..........Baker improves w/out Hue in his way."

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#1702611 - 12/04/19 03:42 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: MemphisBrownie]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 42620
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
I've already got a GREAT signature. But thanks for the suggestion.

wink
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702613 - 12/04/19 03:42 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: willitevachange]
MemphisBrownie Offline

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Registered: 03/01/13
Posts: 11881
Loc: Southern Shores of Lake Erie
Quote:
Name me something Dorsey has done that was for the future, and not to win now.


I think this would be a great debate topic. I tend to lean on most of the moves for "win now" than building anything long-term.
_________________________
"We'll see how much Brat...errr..........Baker improves w/out Hue in his way."

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#1702614 - 12/04/19 03:43 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
MemphisBrownie Offline

Legend

Registered: 03/01/13
Posts: 11881
Loc: Southern Shores of Lake Erie
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I've already got a GREAT signature. But thanks for the suggestion.

wink


Replacing that one bad signature with another isn't a great thing. But you do you.
_________________________
"We'll see how much Brat...errr..........Baker improves w/out Hue in his way."

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#1702615 - 12/04/19 03:46 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: MemphisBrownie]
willitevachange Offline
Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/07/17
Posts: 8945
Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
Quote:
Name me something Dorsey has done that was for the future, and not to win now.


I think this would be a great debate topic. I tend to lean on most of the moves for "win now" than building anything long-term.
I mean, accumulating draft picks and cap space was horrible idea because we were losing now (two years ago), but trading away all that and spending big time money on FA to get in the door NOW, is building for the future. . . . .

So one GM who said they were building for the future and acquiring picks and money was lying

and the other GM who spent all the money and draft picks on players in their prime is building for the future and needs patience. . . .

I mean, honestly - Dorsey IMO is better at finding talent than Sashi, but Dorsey has made some big mistakes as well.

Im just not so blinded by having to be right to not see the hypocrisy.

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#1702616 - 12/04/19 03:48 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: willitevachange]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 42620
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Cowhers first year as HC of the Steelers he went 7-9.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of the BS because it looks like Freddie can do that well.

Good thing Cowher didn't start his coaching career here or you would have been wanting him fired after his first season.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702618 - 12/04/19 03:50 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
willitevachange Offline
Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/07/17
Posts: 8945
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Cowhers first year as HC of the Steelers he went 7-9.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of the BS because it looks like Freddie can do that well.

Good thing Cowher didn't start his coaching career here or you would have been wanting him fired after his first season.
Wrong bucco! Cowher was 11-5 his first year, bub. 1992. So please continue

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CowhBi0.htm

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#1702625 - 12/04/19 04:11 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: willitevachange]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 42620
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
That isn't what my source said. But after checking other sources, you are right. Here's where I got my info....

Quote:
1991 Pittsburgh Steelers Head Coach 7-9-0 0-0

https://pro-football-history.com/coach/79/bill-cowher-bio


Would you like to point out first year head coaches who did badly only to turn it around and become great coaches?

Parcells started 9-7

Belichick in his first year at New England went 5-11

His first two years in Cleveland he went 6-10 and then 7-9.

Bill Walsh started out 2-14

I could go on with the list. But as you can see, trying to say you have an open and shut case is far from true.

Unless of course you're trying to say Bill Walsh or Bill Belichick wouldn't have been worth giving time to develop.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702629 - 12/04/19 04:21 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
DCDAWGFAN Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 38631
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Let's look at the reasons that the Browns have been in the headlines this year:

1. Browns look woefully unprepared and flat in week 1, rack up 18 penalties
2. OBJ wearing a $200K watch while playing
3. OBJ and Landry told by the NFL to change their shoes or they can't go back on the field.
4. Weekly snarks about highly questionable sideline game management.
5. Browns continue to be most penalized team in the NFL.
6. Browns get through tough part of schedule, get to Broncos starting a QB who has never taken a snap, the winning streak begins here. Get beat.
7. Every pundit weighing in on why, with all this talent, the Browns offense looks so lost for much of the game.
8. Browns win a few games against pretty bad teams, do they have it figure out?
9. Melee in Cleveland, Browns player smashed other player in the head with his own helmet.
10. Coach wears derogatory t-shirt claiming the other team started it.
11. Browns cut talented wide receiver Callaway for disciplinary reasons.
12. Browns beat maybe worst team in the league Dolphins, coach gives team the week off until Wednesday on the week they play the Steelers again.
13. Browns do not allow starting safety to make the Trip to Pittsburgh for disciplinary reasons, makes already depleted secondary even worse.
14. Browns have a chance to win critical game to improve playoff chances and look totally flat, lose to rookie QB from Samford.
15. Head coach continues to tell fans the team was prepared to play takes minimal responsibility for the fact that we suck.


So my question is simple.. if Freddie is the guy that shows up in the spring for OTAs... is he the guy that is going to fix all of this? I have serious doubts my brother. I'm sure all of the players "like him", but it is almost as equally clear that they don't respect him... and that's a hard thing to change.
_________________________
#freemyles
#suspendrudolph

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#1702632 - 12/04/19 04:29 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 42620
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
I don't have a clue if he can fix all of that. I actually would understand if they replace him.

I just think it would be a shady move from Dorsey. He knew Freddie had never been a HC at any level. He knew Freddie had actually only been a coordinator for half a season. Knowing all of that, if you make that choice you have to be aware that it's going to take some time to adjust to things.

Pulling the plug that soon would mean Dorsey never intended to give Freddie an actual chance to ever succeed as an NFL HC.

I understand the NFL stands for, "Not For Long" and that the window isn't huge. But I also feel if Dorsey didn't understand the situation he put the team into when he hired Freddie, it speaks volumes.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702636 - 12/04/19 04:36 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
Milk Man Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 8065
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Let's look at the reasons that the Browns have been in the headlines this year:

1. Browns look woefully unprepared and flat in week 1, rack up 18 penalties
2. OBJ wearing a $200K watch while playing
3. OBJ and Landry told by the NFL to change their shoes or they can't go back on the field.
4. Weekly snarks about highly questionable sideline game management.
5. Browns continue to be most penalized team in the NFL.
6. Browns get through tough part of schedule, get to Broncos starting a QB who has never taken a snap, the winning streak begins here. Get beat.
7. Every pundit weighing in on why, with all this talent, the Browns offense looks so lost for much of the game.
8. Browns win a few games against pretty bad teams, do they have it figure out?
9. Melee in Cleveland, Browns player smashed other player in the head with his own helmet.
10. Coach wears derogatory t-shirt claiming the other team started it.
11. Browns cut talented wide receiver Callaway for disciplinary reasons.
12. Browns beat maybe worst team in the league Dolphins, coach gives team the week off until Wednesday on the week they play the Steelers again.
13. Browns do not allow starting safety to make the Trip to Pittsburgh for disciplinary reasons, makes already depleted secondary even worse.
14. Browns have a chance to win critical game to improve playoff chances and look totally flat, lose to rookie QB from Samford.
15. Head coach continues to tell fans the team was prepared to play takes minimal responsibility for the fact that we suck.


So my question is simple.. if Freddie is the guy that shows up in the spring for OTAs... is he the guy that is going to fix all of this? I have serious doubts my brother. I'm sure all of the players "like him", but it is almost as equally clear that they don't respect him... and that's a hard thing to change.


16. Browns Safety threatens to kill people on Twitter, including team employee, Dustin Fox
17. Browns lead the league in player ejections
18. Baker walks out of media session because he doesn't like a question
19. Freddie boasts about how the Browns "wont's back down to anybody" after team starts multiple fights during practice session with Colts that is ultimately cancelled for the day.

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#1702637 - 12/04/19 04:37 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Milk Man]
Haus Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 6448
smh.

I've posted here so little this season that I almost forgot about some of that stuff. willynilly

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#1702639 - 12/04/19 04:48 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
Haus Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 6448
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I don't have a clue if he can fix all of that. I actually would understand if they replace him.

I just think it would be a shady move from Dorsey. He knew Freddie had never been a HC at any level. He knew Freddie had actually only been a coordinator for half a season. Knowing all of that, if you make that choice you have to be aware that it's going to take some time to adjust to things.

Pulling the plug that soon would mean Dorsey never intended to give Freddie an actual chance to ever succeed as an NFL HC.

I understand the NFL stands for, "Not For Long" and that the window isn't huge. But I also feel if Dorsey didn't understand the situation he put the team into when he hired Freddie, it speaks volumes.

Kitchens was Dorsey's first full time coaching hire. I think if you gave Dorsey truth serum, he'd say that he whiffed on that one and wishes he could have a do-over. That doesn't necessarily mean Kitchens is done after this season though.

GMs often get two cracks at a head coaching hires. I think a lot of them-- and this includes Dorsey-- come from a scouting/player acquisition background and don't fully grasp the importance of coaching. Note the wording and emphasis there because they are important. They get too hung up on talent and underestimate the effect of coaching, just like almost everybody does. It's easier finding players for Andy Reid than it is for Hue/Kitchens.

Also scouting for players is different than finding a great coach; you're looking for different skills and hopefully Dorsey has refined his thinking there.

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#1702640 - 12/04/19 04:51 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
Milk Man Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 8065
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I don't have a clue if he can fix all of that. I actually would understand if they replace him.

I just think it would be a shady move from Dorsey. He knew Freddie had never been a HC at any level. He knew Freddie had actually only been a coordinator for half a season. Knowing all of that, if you make that choice you have to be aware that it's going to take some time to adjust to things.

Pulling the plug that soon would mean Dorsey never intended to give Freddie an actual chance to ever succeed as an NFL HC.

I understand the NFL stands for, "Not For Long" and that the window isn't huge. But I also feel if Dorsey didn't understand the situation he put the team into when he hired Freddie, it speaks volumes.


Absolutely, a lot of this falls squarely back on Dorsey, that why I said early he unfairly put Freddie in a position he clearly is/was not ready for. Freddie isn't resolved from his abysmal leadership though at the same time.

It's like Paul Brown's line when the team bus driver got lost on the way to the airport and Paul Brown said to the bus driver, "I don't blame you, I blame the guy that hired you."

The Browns have some difficult choices to make at the end of the season on how they want to move forward as a franchise.

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#1702645 - 12/04/19 05:42 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
SuperBrown Offline

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Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 3364
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
Freddie wasn't Reddie.

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#1702661 - 12/04/19 07:33 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Milk Man]
Rishuz Offline

Legend

Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 13318
Loc: Las Vegas
Originally Posted By: Milk Man
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Let's look at the reasons that the Browns have been in the headlines this year:

1. Browns look woefully unprepared and flat in week 1, rack up 18 penalties
2. OBJ wearing a $200K watch while playing
3. OBJ and Landry told by the NFL to change their shoes or they can't go back on the field.
4. Weekly snarks about highly questionable sideline game management.
5. Browns continue to be most penalized team in the NFL.
6. Browns get through tough part of schedule, get to Broncos starting a QB who has never taken a snap, the winning streak begins here. Get beat.
7. Every pundit weighing in on why, with all this talent, the Browns offense looks so lost for much of the game.
8. Browns win a few games against pretty bad teams, do they have it figure out?
9. Melee in Cleveland, Browns player smashed other player in the head with his own helmet.
10. Coach wears derogatory t-shirt claiming the other team started it.
11. Browns cut talented wide receiver Callaway for disciplinary reasons.
12. Browns beat maybe worst team in the league Dolphins, coach gives team the week off until Wednesday on the week they play the Steelers again.
13. Browns do not allow starting safety to make the Trip to Pittsburgh for disciplinary reasons, makes already depleted secondary even worse.
14. Browns have a chance to win critical game to improve playoff chances and look totally flat, lose to rookie QB from Samford.
15. Head coach continues to tell fans the team was prepared to play takes minimal responsibility for the fact that we suck.


So my question is simple.. if Freddie is the guy that shows up in the spring for OTAs... is he the guy that is going to fix all of this? I have serious doubts my brother. I'm sure all of the players "like him", but it is almost as equally clear that they don't respect him... and that's a hard thing to change.


16. Browns Safety threatens to kill people on Twitter, including team employee, Dustin Fox
17. Browns lead the league in player ejections
18. Baker walks out of media session because he doesn't like a question
19. Freddie boasts about how the Browns "wont's back down to anybody" after team starts multiple fights during practice session with Colts that is ultimately cancelled for the day.


20. Cut Devaroe Lawrence. Locker room glue guy. Players found out at a charity event.
21. Cut Chris Smith. Locker room glue guy. So many players have spoken about their shock at this.

Way to build the right culture and chemistry. POS franchise.

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#1702672 - 12/04/19 09:07 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Rishuz]
bonefish Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 6811
Loc: Back in Atl. Ga.

Thought this was about Ron Rivera. Wrong.

Rivera is repected inside the game both as a man and head coach.

He has a winning record. He will be hired by some team.

Would he be a fit in Cleveland?

Not sure. He is a defensive coach. He would have to hire an OC. He brings experience. He is well liked by players. He has a good resume.

If Freddie is shown the door. Rivera has to be a consideration.

I am thinking more along the lines of an offensive guy. Someone who can get the most from Baker and the investments in place. A guy who can make our offensive players fit into a scheme that fits them and is productive.

Freddie was chosen to do that. The results have not been good.

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#1702678 - 12/04/19 10:47 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Milk Man]
PDXBrownsFan Offline
Hall of Famer

Registered: 12/17/14
Posts: 3903
Loc: Portland, OR (originally Lakew...
Originally Posted By: Milk Man
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Let's look at the reasons that the Browns have been in the headlines this year:

1. Browns look woefully unprepared and flat in week 1, rack up 18 penalties
2. OBJ wearing a $200K watch while playing
3. OBJ and Landry told by the NFL to change their shoes or they can't go back on the field.
4. Weekly snarks about highly questionable sideline game management.
5. Browns continue to be most penalized team in the NFL.
6. Browns get through tough part of schedule, get to Broncos starting a QB who has never taken a snap, the winning streak begins here. Get beat.
7. Every pundit weighing in on why, with all this talent, the Browns offense looks so lost for much of the game.
8. Browns win a few games against pretty bad teams, do they have it figure out?
9. Melee in Cleveland, Browns player smashed other player in the head with his own helmet.
10. Coach wears derogatory t-shirt claiming the other team started it.
11. Browns cut talented wide receiver Callaway for disciplinary reasons.
12. Browns beat maybe worst team in the league Dolphins, coach gives team the week off until Wednesday on the week they play the Steelers again.
13. Browns do not allow starting safety to make the Trip to Pittsburgh for disciplinary reasons, makes already depleted secondary even worse.
14. Browns have a chance to win critical game to improve playoff chances and look totally flat, lose to rookie QB from Samford.
15. Head coach continues to tell fans the team was prepared to play takes minimal responsibility for the fact that we suck.


So my question is simple.. if Freddie is the guy that shows up in the spring for OTAs... is he the guy that is going to fix all of this? I have serious doubts my brother. I'm sure all of the players "like him", but it is almost as equally clear that they don't respect him... and that's a hard thing to change.


16. Browns Safety threatens to kill people on Twitter, including team employee, Dustin Fox
17. Browns lead the league in player ejections
18. Baker walks out of media session because he doesn't like a question
19. Freddie boasts about how the Browns "wont's back down to anybody" after team starts multiple fights during practice session with Colts that is ultimately cancelled for the day.


This list of 19 things is what has made this season very frustrating and almost as difficult as our 0-16 season.

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#1702684 - 12/04/19 11:49 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PDXBrownsFan]
Milk Man Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 8065
Originally Posted By: PDXBrownsFan
Originally Posted By: Milk Man
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Let's look at the reasons that the Browns have been in the headlines this year:

1. Browns look woefully unprepared and flat in week 1, rack up 18 penalties
2. OBJ wearing a $200K watch while playing
3. OBJ and Landry told by the NFL to change their shoes or they can't go back on the field.
4. Weekly snarks about highly questionable sideline game management.
5. Browns continue to be most penalized team in the NFL.
6. Browns get through tough part of schedule, get to Broncos starting a QB who has never taken a snap, the winning streak begins here. Get beat.
7. Every pundit weighing in on why, with all this talent, the Browns offense looks so lost for much of the game.
8. Browns win a few games against pretty bad teams, do they have it figure out?
9. Melee in Cleveland, Browns player smashed other player in the head with his own helmet.
10. Coach wears derogatory t-shirt claiming the other team started it.
11. Browns cut talented wide receiver Callaway for disciplinary reasons.
12. Browns beat maybe worst team in the league Dolphins, coach gives team the week off until Wednesday on the week they play the Steelers again.
13. Browns do not allow starting safety to make the Trip to Pittsburgh for disciplinary reasons, makes already depleted secondary even worse.
14. Browns have a chance to win critical game to improve playoff chances and look totally flat, lose to rookie QB from Samford.
15. Head coach continues to tell fans the team was prepared to play takes minimal responsibility for the fact that we suck.


So my question is simple.. if Freddie is the guy that shows up in the spring for OTAs... is he the guy that is going to fix all of this? I have serious doubts my brother. I'm sure all of the players "like him", but it is almost as equally clear that they don't respect him... and that's a hard thing to change.


16. Browns Safety threatens to kill people on Twitter, including team employee, Dustin Fox
17. Browns lead the league in player ejections
18. Baker walks out of media session because he doesn't like a question
19. Freddie boasts about how the Browns "wont's back down to anybody" after team starts multiple fights during practice session with Colts that is ultimately cancelled for the day.


This list of 19 things is what has made this season very frustrating and almost as difficult as our 0-16 season.


It's worse. Everyone knew they were tanking then and 2 wins (at most) was the likelihood.

This season has been an unmitigated disaster. 99% of the even the most cynical fans would not have predicted we'd be playing meaningless football in December, struggle to even score 20 points per game given the offensive weapons, make OBJ look like a JAG, etc..

And most alarming, the team's future is still murky.

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#1702685 - 12/05/19 12:11 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
s003apr Offline

2nd String

Registered: 12/23/09
Posts: 288
Ron Rivera would be a great fit here in Cleveland. He is exactly what this team needs. He is a good friend with Wilks and will keep him on as Defensive Coordinator.

Under his watch, the Panthers have been consistently one of the least penalized teams in the league.
2019 - Third least penalized team
2018 - Third least penalized team
2017 - Least penalized team

I wasn't looking forward to another coaching change and thought it would be best to stick with Kitchens at least another year, but Rivera is a guy that would change my mind.

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#1702692 - 12/05/19 06:54 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: s003apr]
GMdawg Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 24399
Loc: ohio
Ron had six losing seasons out nine. Many Browns fans would want him run out of town before the end of his first season.

Browns fans wanted Bill B run out of town.

Hell Marty Schottenheimer was 44-27 as a Browns coach and fans wanted him run out of town notallthere
_________________________
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.

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#1702697 - 12/05/19 07:30 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: GMdawg]
Haus Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 6448
In fairness to us fans, illogical as we may be, we still have a better track record than actual Browns front offices.

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#1702702 - 12/05/19 07:59 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
willitevachange Offline
Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/07/17
Posts: 8945
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
That isn't what my source said. But after checking other sources, you are right. Here's where I got my info....

Quote:
1991 Pittsburgh Steelers Head Coach 7-9-0 0-0

https://pro-football-history.com/coach/79/bill-cowher-bio


Would you like to point out first year head coaches who did badly only to turn it around and become great coaches?

Parcells started 9-7

Belichick in his first year at New England went 5-11

His first two years in Cleveland he went 6-10 and then 7-9.

Bill Walsh started out 2-14

I could go on with the list. But as you can see, trying to say you have an open and shut case is far from true.

Unless of course you're trying to say Bill Walsh or Bill Belichick wouldn't have been worth giving time to develop.



None of those coaches had the team to start with that Freddie has. That's a big key point your neglecting to mention. They built a team and some an entire organization. Freddie cant build a wet fart.

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#1702708 - 12/05/19 08:10 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
willitevachange Offline
Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/07/17
Posts: 8945
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I don't have a clue if he can fix all of that. I actually would understand if they replace him.

I just think it would be a shady move from Dorsey. He knew Freddie had never been a HC at any level. He knew Freddie had actually only been a coordinator for half a season. Knowing all of that, if you make that choice you have to be aware that it's going to take some time to adjust to things.

Pulling the plug that soon would mean Dorsey never intended to give Freddie an actual chance to ever succeed as an NFL HC.

I understand the NFL stands for, "Not For Long" and that the window isn't huge. But I also feel if Dorsey didn't understand the situation he put the team into when he hired Freddie, it speaks volumes.
Again, your failing to take into consideration one big thing. Freddie and his actions.

It would be one thing if we were losing games. It would be one thing if the team was just not on the same page.

But its not. It is CONSTANT discord. They say one thing, do another.

Heck, just yesterday "Baker will not be limited in anyway" - Freddie

Then:

Baker Mayfield limited at practice, doesn't throw a single ball and hast all week.

"We need to run the ball more in those situations, I have to call better plays"

Then:

SAME EXACT SCENARIO - Empty set on the goal line with passes galore, again.

I can work with leanring curves, bro. We all can and we all expected them. The problem is, Freddie is 1. not learning 2. Has show a blatent defiance 3. Refuses to hold himself accountable and change

Dorsey said it was going to be tough, and he was right - but the issue is here, the REASONS it is tough right now, SHOULDNT BE. The reasons it has been tough are things that easily fixed, but the stubborn HC refuses to change.

Hey, I can live with a bad timeout in at half. But when you do it for weeks in a row - that's an issue. LEARN.

Hey, I can live with a bad challenge, but when you do it over and over - that's an issue. LEARN.

Hey, I can live with some penalties in the early part of the year. But when it went on for weeks - and it took you 8 weeks to call Parcells for advice - that's an issue. LEARN FASTER

Hey, I can live with a bad roster decision. But when you start Callaway for weeks after coming off suspension and not giving effort at camp over Hollywood and others who are putting in the work - that's an issue. LEARN

The players have no foundation, the players do not respect his authority, they players are undisciplined and unorganized. This is a rudderless ship heading for land and we cant get out of the way.

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#1702715 - 12/05/19 08:30 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: willitevachange]
Haus Offline

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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 6448
The thing about all this is the Browns have actually had opportunities for good, even excellent coaches.

Haslam overruled the analytics people, hiring Hue Jackson instead of Sean McDermott. Both teams were in rebuilding mode; the Browns went 1-15 while the Bills went 9-7 and made the playoffs.

The Browns proceeded to keep Hue after going 1-15 (understandable) and then 0-16 (completely inexcusable). We could have had our head coach of the future in place for Baker's rookie year, which would have made perfect sense.

That unmitigated disaster continued for another half a season where we made the long (LONG) overdue change. And you know what? The Browns got lucky as heck.

Gregg Williams is one of those guys who's a better head coach than coordinator. He fixed the team in two weeks time. He had a less-talented version of this team playing sound, disciplined football and finished with a WINNING RECORD.

If Gregg Williams wasn't the answer, we had other options. This was a highly desirable job. Bruce Arians was openly lobbying to come here and would have kept Freddie on as OC. Stefanski has that Vikings offense playing pretty well.

So what do we do? We turn the team over to a guy who had half a season's worth of coordinator experience, who was never more than a position coach for his 20 year coaching career before that. Why?? It makes no sense. It never made any sense and I suspect the only reason anyone even got on board with it was that Dorsey's cred was at an all-time high, he was the football guy, and we were going to trust his judgement. That's what got me anyway.

Ugh. It's all so frustrating, knowing all the chances we had and how we ended up where we are today.


Edited by Haus (12/05/19 08:46 AM)

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#1702725 - 12/05/19 09:06 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: GMdawg]
devicedawg Offline

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80% Browns fans at the start of the year: we aren't a playoff team and we'll finish around .500, 9-7 at best.

80% Browns fans now as we approach .500 as they predicted: Freddie didn't get it done. He needs to go.

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#1702726 - 12/05/19 09:08 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Haus]
devicedawg Offline

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Bruce is also 5-7 in Tampa. We dodged a bullet there.

My money is on Freddie retaining his job.

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#1702727 - 12/05/19 09:11 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
Haus Offline

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I never wanted Bruce Arians. I still think he's a good coach though, and he would have kept Kitchens on board as OC. Again, not my choice, but it would have made sense to have that continuity there with the offense, without thrusting Kitchens into the head job which he was not ready for.

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#1702728 - 12/05/19 09:16 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
leadtheway Offline

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Bruce didn't inherit much talent and winston is pure garbage, but Arians has that offense playing lights out..They are top 5. Analytics said Stefanski was the guy, but Dorsey strong-armed freddie into the position
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#1702730 - 12/05/19 09:17 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Haus]
devicedawg Offline

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I don't disagree about continuity. I didn't want to lose Kitchens last year. I thought it looked like he and Mayfield had pretty good chemistry in the second half.

Im not surprised he was hired as the HC. If he wasn't ready, that's not Freddie's fault. That fault falls on whomever hired him.

If Freddie is let go, I like Rivera from the standpoint that I believe some coaches will remain. I could be wrong. But I also think if Freddie is fired McCarthy is the lead candidate to succeed him.

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#1702732 - 12/05/19 09:20 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
Bard Dawg Offline

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So almost everybody got something right. I must have drowned in the punchbowl of Kool-aid.
I really expected this group to surprise. Then this offense with BM's falloff certainly lowered a bar that FK can'seem to improve much and actually was sorry versus teams with about equal talent. Some of this haas to be the "system symptoms" IMO. A passing team that can't reliably when it must, a running team that is predictable but won't in the second half, or can't get it done much in the RZ.

Linebackers? OL? Offensive "hybrid" and its bottom-line results? I don't think we have connected our dots well enough. I also think we have talent and we have depth. Might need a heart transplant so more of us want a win more than our opponents poke
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#1702733 - 12/05/19 09:20 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
jfanent Offline

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Loc: Oregon, Ohio
Originally Posted By: devicedawg
80% Browns fans at the start of the year: we aren't a playoff team and we'll finish around .500, 9-7 at best.

80% Browns fans now as we approach .500 as they predicted: Freddie didn't get it done. He needs to go.


Where'd you get those stats? If you go by our poll, 90% of the posters predicted a minimum of 9 wins, most of those 10 or more. 9% predicted 8 or fewer.
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#1702738 - 12/05/19 09:38 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Haus]
oobernoober Offline

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I thought Arians was a slam dunk. Already knows Freddie, could groom him for a few years, and only a few years because of Arians age and health.
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#1702741 - 12/05/19 10:01 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Haus]
GMdawg Offline

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Loc: ohio
Originally Posted By: Haus
In fairness to us fans, illogical as we may be, we still have a better track record than actual Browns front offices.


Really rofl Just how many coaches have us fans hired?
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#1702750 - 12/05/19 10:22 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: GMdawg]
Haus Offline

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Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 6448
What I mean is that public opinion/popular sentiment has generally been better than what Browns ownership has actually done. At least that's my impression.

Let me go ahead and list the coaches we've had since our return.

Chris Palmer
Butch Davis
Terry Robiskie (interim)
Romeo Crennel
Eric Mangini
Pat Shurmur
Rob Chudzinski
Mike Pettine
Hue Jackson
Gregg Williams (interim)
Freddie Kitchens

I feel us Dawgtalkers would have ended up with a better list than that over the years..

edit: Pat Shurmur was the coach when the Haslams bought the team. Then, everybody from Chudzinski and on were ultimately Haslam hires, with varying degrees of input from others.

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#1702759 - 12/05/19 11:46 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: jfanent]
Milk Man Offline

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Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 8065
Originally Posted By: jfanent
Originally Posted By: devicedawg
80% Browns fans at the start of the year: we aren't a playoff team and we'll finish around .500, 9-7 at best.

80% Browns fans now as we approach .500 as they predicted: Freddie didn't get it done. He needs to go.


Where'd you get those stats? If you go by our poll, 90% of the posters predicted a minimum of 9 wins, most of those 10 or more. 9% predicted 8 or fewer.


My thoughts exactly. With the talent on this team anything short of a wild card would and should be considered a major failure.

Anyone that didn't think this was a playoff ready team was certainly in the minority.

Hell, just look at the season prediction thread on here.

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#1702766 - 12/05/19 12:08 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
DCDAWGFAN Offline

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Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 38631
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I don't have a clue if he can fix all of that. I actually would understand if they replace him.

I just think it would be a shady move from Dorsey. He knew Freddie had never been a HC at any level. He knew Freddie had actually only been a coordinator for half a season. Knowing all of that, if you make that choice you have to be aware that it's going to take some time to adjust to things.

Pulling the plug that soon would mean Dorsey never intended to give Freddie an actual chance to ever succeed as an NFL HC.

I understand the NFL stands for, "Not For Long" and that the window isn't huge. But I also feel if Dorsey didn't understand the situation he put the team into when he hired Freddie, it speaks volumes.

Pit, I don't really disagree with any of that. I'm sure Dorsey knew there would be some kind of a learning curve, I'm just not sure he expected what he has seen.. and the big question, that only Dorsey can answer, is Freddie willing to change enough to get up that learning curve. At least in his public pressers, Freddie has been fairly defiant in that he doesn't think he's doing anything wrong and that the team has been adequately prepared to play each week. Clearly that has not been the case.

But my biggest concern, if you come in like Tom Coughlin as the ultimate hard-arse, if it proves to be too much, you can always soften up and back off a little. If you come in as the folksy guy from Alabama who wants to be everybody's friend, and then have to tighten up, it doesn't always work as well.

So the two questions Dorsey has to answer:

1. Is Freddie willing to learn and make the changes necessary to get this team to respond at a high level consistently.
2. Are the players willing to accept those changes..
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#1702767 - 12/05/19 12:13 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
FL_Dawg Offline

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Registered: 05/04/08
Posts: 7834
Loc: Austinburg OH
j/c,
John Dorsey is on record as stating that we need to be patient with this team.

To me that implied that he knew that there would be some bumps along the way.

Just how much can be debated, but the fact of his caution on optimism is there if anyone cares to see and or hear it.
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#1702768 - 12/05/19 12:18 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: FL_Dawg]
Dawgs4Life Offline

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Registered: 09/11/06
Posts: 51654
Loc: Edinboro, PA
Yeah, I mean if our FO believes there is true progress and that continuity is the way to go ... then there’s nothing we can do but accept and hope. Firing a coach just to fire him is dumb, but keeping one to keep him is also dumb. So, we’ll see
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