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#1702261 - 12/03/19 03:25 PM Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera
BustkeviousMingo Offline
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https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nf...ach/2599247001/
Carolina Panthers fire coach Ron Rivera after nearly 9 years

The Carolina Panthers announced Tuesday that they have fired head coach Ron Rivera, abruptly ending his nearly nine-year tenure with the team.


Rivera, 57, led the Panthers to an overall regular-season record of 76-63-1, including a 5-7 mark so far this year. Carolina is in the midst of a four-game losing streak with four games left to play in 2019.

"I believe this is the best decision for the long-term success of our team," Panthers owner David Tepper said in a statement. "I have a great deal of respect for Ron and the contributions he has made to this franchise and to this community. I wish him the best. I will immediately begin the search for the next head coach of the Carolina Panthers."

Secondary coach Perry Fewell will serve as the interim coach for the remainder of 2019.
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#1702262 - 12/03/19 03:27 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
Milk Man Offline

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Get him on the horn!

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#1702263 - 12/03/19 03:28 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
Swish Offline

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Bring him over here.
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#1702265 - 12/03/19 03:34 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
willitevachange Offline
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I VANT ONE! I VANT ONE!

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#1702266 - 12/03/19 03:38 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
Milk Man Offline

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#1702276 - 12/03/19 04:13 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
PrplPplEater Offline

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#1702284 - 12/03/19 04:23 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
cfrs15 Offline

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I am not usually a person that wants a retread coach. Ron Rivera would be a great hire. He is respectable, has run a team successfully, and hires coordinators and let's them work. It doesn't hurt that he and Steve Wilks are long time co-workers.

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#1702290 - 12/03/19 04:36 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: cfrs15]
PitDAWG Offline

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We currently have a HC.
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Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

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#1702292 - 12/03/19 04:37 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
cfrs15 Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
We currently have a HC.


Obviously. I didn't say we should fire him.

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#1702293 - 12/03/19 04:38 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: cfrs15]
PitDAWG Offline

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I'm not a CPA, but the math would indicate that in order to hire Rivera you would have to fire Kitchens.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702300 - 12/03/19 04:51 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
tastybrownies Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
We currently have a HC.


Fire him immediately!
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#1702309 - 12/03/19 05:15 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: tastybrownies]
PitDAWG Offline

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After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702313 - 12/03/19 05:37 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
YTownBrownsFan Online   confused

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Ron Rivera, a total of 13 games over .500 (and he had a 15-1 season in that) .... with 3 winning seasons out of 9. He did take his team to a Super Bowl .... but other than that .... a few early exits from the playoffs.

I don't see him as some great option.
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John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.

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#1702319 - 12/03/19 06:00 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
SuperBrown Offline

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No thanks.

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#1702323 - 12/03/19 06:10 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
HotBYoungTurk Offline

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Originally Posted By: YTownBrownsFan
Ron Rivera, a total of 13 games over .500 (and he had a 15-1 season in that) .... with 3 winning seasons out of 9. He did take his team to a Super Bowl .... but other than that .... a few early exits from the playoffs.

I don't see him as some great option.


Please don't discredit Rivera. I can't imagine how difficult it is to be the head coach of an organization, and potentially finish a LONGGGGG career with a win record over 0.500. 0.546 to be exact.
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#1702327 - 12/03/19 06:26 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: HotBYoungTurk]
Hammer Online   content
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I'll take the Zero.

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#1702361 - 12/03/19 08:45 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
Milk Man Offline

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j/c...


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#1702363 - 12/03/19 08:46 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
superbowldogg Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Hue Jackson.
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#1702383 - 12/03/19 10:42 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: superbowldogg]
Milk Man Offline

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j/c...

Pretty cool...


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#1702386 - 12/03/19 10:46 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
SuperBrown Offline

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Dallas should hire him.

Just my 2 cents.

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#1702396 - 12/04/19 05:20 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Milk Man]
Dawgs4Life Offline

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That’s an awesome and telling photo
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"First down inside the 10. A score here likely puts us in the Super Bowl. Landry is far to the left as Hooper settles into the slot. OBJ is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Baker takes the snap ... Here we go."

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#1702543 - 12/04/19 01:50 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: superbowldogg]
PitDAWG Offline

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Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Hue Jackson.


“I ask the fans to exercise a degree of patience,” he said. “We are building this thing to last 10 years, not just have one good year.” - John Dorsey

In a microwave, have everything at your fingertips society, I have no idea why he thought anyone would listen to him.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702546 - 12/04/19 01:57 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
DaveyD Offline

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Originally Posted By: YTownBrownsFan
Ron Rivera, a total of 13 games over .500 (and he had a 15-1 season in that) .... with 3 winning seasons out of 9. He did take his team to a Super Bowl .... but other than that .... a few early exits from the playoffs.

I don't see him as some great option.


That resume seems to be exponentially better than any other Head Coaches we have hired in the past 20 years.

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#1702547 - 12/04/19 01:59 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
Haus Offline

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He's a good coach. One thing I always liked about him was he was one of the rare coaches who actually used the scheme best fit for his players, unlike many others. So he's used both 3-4 and 4-3 in his career, though that is a distinction losing its difference now, with so many teams using hybrid schemes.

I also liked the 'Riverboat Ron' from earlier years. Though that was just an earlier (and less refined) version of what coaches like John Harbaugh and Frank Reich are doing... going for it on some 4th down situations where it it obviously the correct play, but where coaches would traditionally punt or attempt a FG instead.

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#1702549 - 12/04/19 02:07 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
MemphisBrownie Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Hue Jackson.


“I ask the fans to exercise a degree of patience,” he said. “We are building this thing to last 10 years, not just have one good year.” - John Dorsey

In a microwave, have everything at your fingertips society, I have no idea why he thought anyone would listen to him.


This is coming from the guy wanting the last regime fired after 18 months.

Here is another quote..."Do as I say, not as I do."
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"We'll see how much Brat...errr..........Baker improves w/out Hue in his way."

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#1702551 - 12/04/19 02:12 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
Dawgs4Life Offline

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He just had a nice goodbye press conference ... seems like a great guy
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"First down inside the 10. A score here likely puts us in the Super Bowl. Landry is far to the left as Hooper settles into the slot. OBJ is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Hunt are split in the backfield as Baker takes the snap ... Here we go."

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#1702552 - 12/04/19 02:13 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: MemphisBrownie]
PitDAWG Offline

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That's funny, I could have sworn I wanted to keep Hue going into last season. I mean with all of those talented QB's he was given before Dorsey drafted Mayfield, how did he not win more?

wink
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702554 - 12/04/19 02:17 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
Ballpeen Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Hue Jackson.


“I ask the fans to exercise a degree of patience,” he said. “We are building this thing to last 10 years, not just have one good year.” - John Dorsey

In a microwave, have everything at your fingertips society, I have no idea why he thought anyone anyone would listen to him.


Many people are always looking for a new flavor.

Rivera was/is a decent head coach, but that is all he would be here.

It's way too soon to make decisions on Kitchens. Obviously some things will need to change, but thinking about making a change before maybe game 10 next year are foolish. Maybe the bye next year unless we draw a week 4 bye.

We hired the guy, he deserves a chance to get it done. I was no fan of Hue, but wasn't calling for him to be fired his first year. Once he was sitting at 1-31 or whatever it was, sure, it wasn't working.

I will say a thing or two about talent. You can't have too much talent on a team. You can have too much talent at a position.

You play 2-3 receivers, but in the end it is 1 position. You can play 2 backs, but it is still 1 position. You feed those positions. You don't feed defensive positions. You don't feed O-line positions.

Dorsey have done a good job of bringing in talented skill position players, but they all play the same position. I think that is a part of Bakers problem. As a QB you are trying to feed those guys. You know they are in the QBs ear about touches. The lineman aren't in his ear about calling more running plays their way so they can make more key blocks.

John needs to spend the nest year or two on bringing in foundation players....players on D and O-line.

Oh....by the way, we need to play Steve Carlson way more the rest of the way. That guy is way better than Njoku or any of the other stiffs we line up at the TE position. That guy is a TE of the future...I just hope it is for us.
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#1702556 - 12/04/19 02:20 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: MemphisBrownie]
Ballpeen Offline

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Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Hue Jackson.


“I ask the fans to exercise a degree of patience,” he said. “We are building this thing to last 10 years, not just have one good year.” - John Dorsey

In a microwave, have everything at your fingertips society, I have no idea why he thought anyone would listen to him.


This is coming from the guy wanting the last regime fired after 18 months.

Here is another quote..."Do as I say, not as I do."



I don't know if 18 months is too short, but less that 1 season is...no?
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If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

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#1702557 - 12/04/19 02:22 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
Ballpeen Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
That's funny, I could have sworn I wanted to keep Hue going into last season. I mean with all of those talented QB's he was given before Dorsey drafted Mayfield, how did he not win more?

wink



I am sticking up for you in this conversation, but no, 1 win in 2 seasons isn't worth keeping.

Let's stay current and not go back to old arguments.
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If everybody had like minds, we would never learn.

GM Strong





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#1702558 - 12/04/19 02:29 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
MemphisBrownie Offline

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Yep, that's what I was referring to. poke
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#1702561 - 12/04/19 02:34 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Ballpeen]
PitDAWG Offline

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Carlson is more of a complete TE than anyone I've seen on the roster.

And I certainly agree with the rest of your post.

It seemed most everyone, including the media, acted like a rookie HC with zero HC experience was going to come in and light the world on fire. Some of us had more realistic expectations. The same goes with Baker.

In a situation like that, common sense rather than emotion dictate it's going to be a work in progress. That such a HC is going to take developing. IMO Dorsey understood that. Which is why he said... “I ask the fans to exercise a degree of patience,” he said. “We are building this thing to last 10 years, not just have one good year.”

That doesn't mean Freddie will end up being a good HC. It means none of us know yet. The process will have to play out going into next year before we even actually have a clue.

And to touch back upon Baker. I think people have to be honest enough to agree that he certainly didn't do well the first half of the season. Not well at all. Actually I would say bad. Even now he appears very streaky with his accuracy but he is doing better on cutting down his mistakes.

But just like Freddie, Baker is not a finished product. The HC position has been a revolving door. By my count this is the third system he has had to learn in less than two seasons. That's certainly not conducive to developing an NFL QB.

I know patience is a hard word for Browns fans. I mean we've all been patient since 1999 with very little reward to show for it. But each FO we have gone through deserves their own blame. Each also deserves their own chance to succeed.

From a fan perspective it's easy to bunch everyone together from 1999 until now and not separate each into it's own entity. IMO, that's why we see such a turn on coaches and FO's in less than a single season. In this case the HC. I think it's a naive and narrow minded way top approach it.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702564 - 12/04/19 02:34 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: MemphisBrownie]
PitDAWG Offline

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Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
Yep, that's what I was referring to. poke


Maybe you should enlighten us rather than spew drivel.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702565 - 12/04/19 02:36 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
willitevachange Offline
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Registered: 09/07/17
Posts: 8945
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Hue Jackson.


“I ask the fans to exercise a degree of patience,” he said. “We are building this thing to last 10 years, not just have one good year.” - John Dorsey

In a microwave, have everything at your fingertips society, I have no idea why he thought anyone would listen to him.
Yes trading 1st round picks and and former 1st round picks for players ready to win now in their prime screams building for the future and not building for now.

John is not dumb, he said this quote to temper the storms in the event they had a setback. They hit a dang roadblock the size of Yokozuna.

Johnny boy made great moves on paper, sometimes paper doesn't mean much in terms of on the actual football field. Once again, the browns won the offseason and cared little about what it actually takes to win games. But hey, they sold a crap ton of merch and tickets this year.

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#1702566 - 12/04/19 02:39 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: willitevachange]
PitDAWG Offline

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Miss Cleo, is that you?

Your powers of mind reading leave me awe struck.

Anyone with an ounce of common sense knew that a guy who had never been a HC before would most likely struggle early. Just not you?
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702584 - 12/04/19 03:01 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
willitevachange Offline
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Registered: 09/07/17
Posts: 8945
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Miss Cleo, is that you?

Your powers of mind reading leave me awe struck.

Anyone with an ounce of common sense knew that a guy who had never been a HC before would most likely struggle early. Just not you?


Yep, Tomlin, Pederson, Mcvay, Paul Brown went 12-2, John Madden, Bill Cowher, etc etc.

Many coaches, with a lot less talent have produced better results and didn't have the struggles. You want to use Kitches as a crutch to take the blame of Dorsey, forgetting it was Dorsey whom hired kitchens in the first place.

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#1702588 - 12/04/19 03:06 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: willitevachange]
MemphisBrownie Offline

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^ He gets it!
_________________________
"We'll see how much Brat...errr..........Baker improves w/out Hue in his way."

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#1702597 - 12/04/19 03:31 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: willitevachange]
PitDAWG Offline

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Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 42620
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
You want to be a cannibal at the first sight of blood.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702598 - 12/04/19 03:32 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: willitevachange]
Milk Man Offline

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Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 8065
Originally Posted By: willitevachange
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Miss Cleo, is that you?

Your powers of mind reading leave me awe struck.

Anyone with an ounce of common sense knew that a guy who had never been a HC before would most likely struggle early. Just not you?


Yep, Tomlin, Pederson, Mcvay, Paul Brown went 12-2, John Madden, Bill Cowher, etc etc.

Many coaches, with a lot less talent have produced better results and didn't have the struggles. You want to use Kitches as a crutch to take the blame of Dorsey, forgetting it was Dorsey whom hired kitchens in the first place.


My thought is, if it was obvious Freddie was going to struggle, why would Dorsey hire him with a team that is built to win now?

Obviously, you will not be able to keep this team together for the long term with players like Garrett, Baker, Chubb, Schobert, Ward that will be coming off their cheap rookie contracts in the near future. Hunt is going to want to get paid as well.

You likely won't be able to keep both OBJ and Landry together at their salaries and expect to pay all the others.

Why make trades for guys like Vernon that are short term moves? Why sign guys like Sheldon Richardson that is another short term move unless you're in win now mode?

This actually seems like Dorsey put Freddie in position he clearly is not qualified for at this time with a team that has the talent level to win immediately.

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#1702602 - 12/04/19 03:35 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Milk Man]
PitDAWG Offline

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Registered: 09/10/06
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Because fans only see what they want to see and only believe what they want to believe. Even when the man in charge of it all tells them the truth up front.

“I ask the fans to exercise a degree of patience,” he said. “We are building this thing to last 10 years, not just have one good year.” - John Dorsey
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702606 - 12/04/19 03:39 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
willitevachange Offline
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Registered: 09/07/17
Posts: 8945
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Because fans only see what they want to see and only believe what they want to believe. Even when the man in charge of it all tells them the truth up front.

“I ask the fans to exercise a degree of patience,” he said. “We are building this thing to last 10 years, not just have one good year.” - John Dorsey
I guess the term Actions speak louder than words never came across in your town huh?

Name me something Dorsey has done that was for the future, and not to win now.

I also like how you completely disregarded the fact that there have been over a dozen 1st HC that were successful with less talent. You are very good at skirting things.

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#1702608 - 12/04/19 03:40 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
MemphisBrownie Offline

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The irony pours out again!

You should make that quote your next signature.
_________________________
"We'll see how much Brat...errr..........Baker improves w/out Hue in his way."

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#1702611 - 12/04/19 03:42 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: MemphisBrownie]
PitDAWG Offline

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Registered: 09/10/06
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I've already got a GREAT signature. But thanks for the suggestion.

wink
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702613 - 12/04/19 03:42 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: willitevachange]
MemphisBrownie Offline

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Quote:
Name me something Dorsey has done that was for the future, and not to win now.


I think this would be a great debate topic. I tend to lean on most of the moves for "win now" than building anything long-term.
_________________________
"We'll see how much Brat...errr..........Baker improves w/out Hue in his way."

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#1702614 - 12/04/19 03:43 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
MemphisBrownie Offline

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Posts: 11881
Loc: Southern Shores of Lake Erie
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I've already got a GREAT signature. But thanks for the suggestion.

wink


Replacing that one bad signature with another isn't a great thing. But you do you.
_________________________
"We'll see how much Brat...errr..........Baker improves w/out Hue in his way."

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#1702615 - 12/04/19 03:46 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: MemphisBrownie]
willitevachange Offline
Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/07/17
Posts: 8945
Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
Quote:
Name me something Dorsey has done that was for the future, and not to win now.


I think this would be a great debate topic. I tend to lean on most of the moves for "win now" than building anything long-term.
I mean, accumulating draft picks and cap space was horrible idea because we were losing now (two years ago), but trading away all that and spending big time money on FA to get in the door NOW, is building for the future. . . . .

So one GM who said they were building for the future and acquiring picks and money was lying

and the other GM who spent all the money and draft picks on players in their prime is building for the future and needs patience. . . .

I mean, honestly - Dorsey IMO is better at finding talent than Sashi, but Dorsey has made some big mistakes as well.

Im just not so blinded by having to be right to not see the hypocrisy.

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#1702616 - 12/04/19 03:48 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: willitevachange]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 42620
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Cowhers first year as HC of the Steelers he went 7-9.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of the BS because it looks like Freddie can do that well.

Good thing Cowher didn't start his coaching career here or you would have been wanting him fired after his first season.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702618 - 12/04/19 03:50 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
willitevachange Offline
Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/07/17
Posts: 8945
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Cowhers first year as HC of the Steelers he went 7-9.

I'm not going to bother with the rest of the BS because it looks like Freddie can do that well.

Good thing Cowher didn't start his coaching career here or you would have been wanting him fired after his first season.
Wrong bucco! Cowher was 11-5 his first year, bub. 1992. So please continue

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/coaches/CowhBi0.htm

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#1702625 - 12/04/19 04:11 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: willitevachange]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 42620
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
That isn't what my source said. But after checking other sources, you are right. Here's where I got my info....

Quote:
1991 Pittsburgh Steelers Head Coach 7-9-0 0-0

https://pro-football-history.com/coach/79/bill-cowher-bio


Would you like to point out first year head coaches who did badly only to turn it around and become great coaches?

Parcells started 9-7

Belichick in his first year at New England went 5-11

His first two years in Cleveland he went 6-10 and then 7-9.

Bill Walsh started out 2-14

I could go on with the list. But as you can see, trying to say you have an open and shut case is far from true.

Unless of course you're trying to say Bill Walsh or Bill Belichick wouldn't have been worth giving time to develop.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702629 - 12/04/19 04:21 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
DCDAWGFAN Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/12/06
Posts: 38631
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Let's look at the reasons that the Browns have been in the headlines this year:

1. Browns look woefully unprepared and flat in week 1, rack up 18 penalties
2. OBJ wearing a $200K watch while playing
3. OBJ and Landry told by the NFL to change their shoes or they can't go back on the field.
4. Weekly snarks about highly questionable sideline game management.
5. Browns continue to be most penalized team in the NFL.
6. Browns get through tough part of schedule, get to Broncos starting a QB who has never taken a snap, the winning streak begins here. Get beat.
7. Every pundit weighing in on why, with all this talent, the Browns offense looks so lost for much of the game.
8. Browns win a few games against pretty bad teams, do they have it figure out?
9. Melee in Cleveland, Browns player smashed other player in the head with his own helmet.
10. Coach wears derogatory t-shirt claiming the other team started it.
11. Browns cut talented wide receiver Callaway for disciplinary reasons.
12. Browns beat maybe worst team in the league Dolphins, coach gives team the week off until Wednesday on the week they play the Steelers again.
13. Browns do not allow starting safety to make the Trip to Pittsburgh for disciplinary reasons, makes already depleted secondary even worse.
14. Browns have a chance to win critical game to improve playoff chances and look totally flat, lose to rookie QB from Samford.
15. Head coach continues to tell fans the team was prepared to play takes minimal responsibility for the fact that we suck.


So my question is simple.. if Freddie is the guy that shows up in the spring for OTAs... is he the guy that is going to fix all of this? I have serious doubts my brother. I'm sure all of the players "like him", but it is almost as equally clear that they don't respect him... and that's a hard thing to change.
_________________________
#freemyles
#suspendrudolph

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#1702632 - 12/04/19 04:29 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
PitDAWG Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 42620
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
I don't have a clue if he can fix all of that. I actually would understand if they replace him.

I just think it would be a shady move from Dorsey. He knew Freddie had never been a HC at any level. He knew Freddie had actually only been a coordinator for half a season. Knowing all of that, if you make that choice you have to be aware that it's going to take some time to adjust to things.

Pulling the plug that soon would mean Dorsey never intended to give Freddie an actual chance to ever succeed as an NFL HC.

I understand the NFL stands for, "Not For Long" and that the window isn't huge. But I also feel if Dorsey didn't understand the situation he put the team into when he hired Freddie, it speaks volumes.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1702636 - 12/04/19 04:36 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: DCDAWGFAN]
Milk Man Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 8065
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Let's look at the reasons that the Browns have been in the headlines this year:

1. Browns look woefully unprepared and flat in week 1, rack up 18 penalties
2. OBJ wearing a $200K watch while playing
3. OBJ and Landry told by the NFL to change their shoes or they can't go back on the field.
4. Weekly snarks about highly questionable sideline game management.
5. Browns continue to be most penalized team in the NFL.
6. Browns get through tough part of schedule, get to Broncos starting a QB who has never taken a snap, the winning streak begins here. Get beat.
7. Every pundit weighing in on why, with all this talent, the Browns offense looks so lost for much of the game.
8. Browns win a few games against pretty bad teams, do they have it figure out?
9. Melee in Cleveland, Browns player smashed other player in the head with his own helmet.
10. Coach wears derogatory t-shirt claiming the other team started it.
11. Browns cut talented wide receiver Callaway for disciplinary reasons.
12. Browns beat maybe worst team in the league Dolphins, coach gives team the week off until Wednesday on the week they play the Steelers again.
13. Browns do not allow starting safety to make the Trip to Pittsburgh for disciplinary reasons, makes already depleted secondary even worse.
14. Browns have a chance to win critical game to improve playoff chances and look totally flat, lose to rookie QB from Samford.
15. Head coach continues to tell fans the team was prepared to play takes minimal responsibility for the fact that we suck.


So my question is simple.. if Freddie is the guy that shows up in the spring for OTAs... is he the guy that is going to fix all of this? I have serious doubts my brother. I'm sure all of the players "like him", but it is almost as equally clear that they don't respect him... and that's a hard thing to change.


16. Browns Safety threatens to kill people on Twitter, including team employee, Dustin Fox
17. Browns lead the league in player ejections
18. Baker walks out of media session because he doesn't like a question
19. Freddie boasts about how the Browns "wont's back down to anybody" after team starts multiple fights during practice session with Colts that is ultimately cancelled for the day.

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#1702637 - 12/04/19 04:37 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Milk Man]
Haus Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 6448
smh.

I've posted here so little this season that I almost forgot about some of that stuff. willynilly

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#1702639 - 12/04/19 04:48 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
Haus Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 6448
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I don't have a clue if he can fix all of that. I actually would understand if they replace him.

I just think it would be a shady move from Dorsey. He knew Freddie had never been a HC at any level. He knew Freddie had actually only been a coordinator for half a season. Knowing all of that, if you make that choice you have to be aware that it's going to take some time to adjust to things.

Pulling the plug that soon would mean Dorsey never intended to give Freddie an actual chance to ever succeed as an NFL HC.

I understand the NFL stands for, "Not For Long" and that the window isn't huge. But I also feel if Dorsey didn't understand the situation he put the team into when he hired Freddie, it speaks volumes.

Kitchens was Dorsey's first full time coaching hire. I think if you gave Dorsey truth serum, he'd say that he whiffed on that one and wishes he could have a do-over. That doesn't necessarily mean Kitchens is done after this season though.

GMs often get two cracks at a head coaching hires. I think a lot of them-- and this includes Dorsey-- come from a scouting/player acquisition background and don't fully grasp the importance of coaching. Note the wording and emphasis there because they are important. They get too hung up on talent and underestimate the effect of coaching, just like almost everybody does. It's easier finding players for Andy Reid than it is for Hue/Kitchens.

Also scouting for players is different than finding a great coach; you're looking for different skills and hopefully Dorsey has refined his thinking there.

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#1702640 - 12/04/19 04:51 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
Milk Man Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 8065
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I don't have a clue if he can fix all of that. I actually would understand if they replace him.

I just think it would be a shady move from Dorsey. He knew Freddie had never been a HC at any level. He knew Freddie had actually only been a coordinator for half a season. Knowing all of that, if you make that choice you have to be aware that it's going to take some time to adjust to things.

Pulling the plug that soon would mean Dorsey never intended to give Freddie an actual chance to ever succeed as an NFL HC.

I understand the NFL stands for, "Not For Long" and that the window isn't huge. But I also feel if Dorsey didn't understand the situation he put the team into when he hired Freddie, it speaks volumes.


Absolutely, a lot of this falls squarely back on Dorsey, that why I said early he unfairly put Freddie in a position he clearly is/was not ready for. Freddie isn't resolved from his abysmal leadership though at the same time.

It's like Paul Brown's line when the team bus driver got lost on the way to the airport and Paul Brown said to the bus driver, "I don't blame you, I blame the guy that hired you."

The Browns have some difficult choices to make at the end of the season on how they want to move forward as a franchise.

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#1702645 - 12/04/19 05:42 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
SuperBrown Offline

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Registered: 04/02/13
Posts: 3364
Loc: Birmingham, Alabama
Freddie wasn't Reddie.

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#1702661 - 12/04/19 07:33 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Milk Man]
Rishuz Offline

Legend

Registered: 10/08/06
Posts: 13318
Loc: Las Vegas
Originally Posted By: Milk Man
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Let's look at the reasons that the Browns have been in the headlines this year:

1. Browns look woefully unprepared and flat in week 1, rack up 18 penalties
2. OBJ wearing a $200K watch while playing
3. OBJ and Landry told by the NFL to change their shoes or they can't go back on the field.
4. Weekly snarks about highly questionable sideline game management.
5. Browns continue to be most penalized team in the NFL.
6. Browns get through tough part of schedule, get to Broncos starting a QB who has never taken a snap, the winning streak begins here. Get beat.
7. Every pundit weighing in on why, with all this talent, the Browns offense looks so lost for much of the game.
8. Browns win a few games against pretty bad teams, do they have it figure out?
9. Melee in Cleveland, Browns player smashed other player in the head with his own helmet.
10. Coach wears derogatory t-shirt claiming the other team started it.
11. Browns cut talented wide receiver Callaway for disciplinary reasons.
12. Browns beat maybe worst team in the league Dolphins, coach gives team the week off until Wednesday on the week they play the Steelers again.
13. Browns do not allow starting safety to make the Trip to Pittsburgh for disciplinary reasons, makes already depleted secondary even worse.
14. Browns have a chance to win critical game to improve playoff chances and look totally flat, lose to rookie QB from Samford.
15. Head coach continues to tell fans the team was prepared to play takes minimal responsibility for the fact that we suck.


So my question is simple.. if Freddie is the guy that shows up in the spring for OTAs... is he the guy that is going to fix all of this? I have serious doubts my brother. I'm sure all of the players "like him", but it is almost as equally clear that they don't respect him... and that's a hard thing to change.


16. Browns Safety threatens to kill people on Twitter, including team employee, Dustin Fox
17. Browns lead the league in player ejections
18. Baker walks out of media session because he doesn't like a question
19. Freddie boasts about how the Browns "wont's back down to anybody" after team starts multiple fights during practice session with Colts that is ultimately cancelled for the day.


20. Cut Devaroe Lawrence. Locker room glue guy. Players found out at a charity event.
21. Cut Chris Smith. Locker room glue guy. So many players have spoken about their shock at this.

Way to build the right culture and chemistry. POS franchise.

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#1702672 - 12/04/19 09:07 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Rishuz]
bonefish Online   content

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/03/07
Posts: 6811
Loc: Back in Atl. Ga.

Thought this was about Ron Rivera. Wrong.

Rivera is repected inside the game both as a man and head coach.

He has a winning record. He will be hired by some team.

Would he be a fit in Cleveland?

Not sure. He is a defensive coach. He would have to hire an OC. He brings experience. He is well liked by players. He has a good resume.

If Freddie is shown the door. Rivera has to be a consideration.

I am thinking more along the lines of an offensive guy. Someone who can get the most from Baker and the investments in place. A guy who can make our offensive players fit into a scheme that fits them and is productive.

Freddie was chosen to do that. The results have not been good.

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#1702678 - 12/04/19 10:47 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Milk Man]
PDXBrownsFan Offline
Hall of Famer

Registered: 12/17/14
Posts: 3903
Loc: Portland, OR (originally Lakew...
Originally Posted By: Milk Man
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Let's look at the reasons that the Browns have been in the headlines this year:

1. Browns look woefully unprepared and flat in week 1, rack up 18 penalties
2. OBJ wearing a $200K watch while playing
3. OBJ and Landry told by the NFL to change their shoes or they can't go back on the field.
4. Weekly snarks about highly questionable sideline game management.
5. Browns continue to be most penalized team in the NFL.
6. Browns get through tough part of schedule, get to Broncos starting a QB who has never taken a snap, the winning streak begins here. Get beat.
7. Every pundit weighing in on why, with all this talent, the Browns offense looks so lost for much of the game.
8. Browns win a few games against pretty bad teams, do they have it figure out?
9. Melee in Cleveland, Browns player smashed other player in the head with his own helmet.
10. Coach wears derogatory t-shirt claiming the other team started it.
11. Browns cut talented wide receiver Callaway for disciplinary reasons.
12. Browns beat maybe worst team in the league Dolphins, coach gives team the week off until Wednesday on the week they play the Steelers again.
13. Browns do not allow starting safety to make the Trip to Pittsburgh for disciplinary reasons, makes already depleted secondary even worse.
14. Browns have a chance to win critical game to improve playoff chances and look totally flat, lose to rookie QB from Samford.
15. Head coach continues to tell fans the team was prepared to play takes minimal responsibility for the fact that we suck.


So my question is simple.. if Freddie is the guy that shows up in the spring for OTAs... is he the guy that is going to fix all of this? I have serious doubts my brother. I'm sure all of the players "like him", but it is almost as equally clear that they don't respect him... and that's a hard thing to change.


16. Browns Safety threatens to kill people on Twitter, including team employee, Dustin Fox
17. Browns lead the league in player ejections
18. Baker walks out of media session because he doesn't like a question
19. Freddie boasts about how the Browns "wont's back down to anybody" after team starts multiple fights during practice session with Colts that is ultimately cancelled for the day.


This list of 19 things is what has made this season very frustrating and almost as difficult as our 0-16 season.

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#1702684 - 12/04/19 11:49 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PDXBrownsFan]
Milk Man Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 11/01/08
Posts: 8065
Originally Posted By: PDXBrownsFan
Originally Posted By: Milk Man
Originally Posted By: DCDAWGFAN
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
After 12 games as HC. Perfect sense. I mean that has worked so well here in the past.


Let's look at the reasons that the Browns have been in the headlines this year:

1. Browns look woefully unprepared and flat in week 1, rack up 18 penalties
2. OBJ wearing a $200K watch while playing
3. OBJ and Landry told by the NFL to change their shoes or they can't go back on the field.
4. Weekly snarks about highly questionable sideline game management.
5. Browns continue to be most penalized team in the NFL.
6. Browns get through tough part of schedule, get to Broncos starting a QB who has never taken a snap, the winning streak begins here. Get beat.
7. Every pundit weighing in on why, with all this talent, the Browns offense looks so lost for much of the game.
8. Browns win a few games against pretty bad teams, do they have it figure out?
9. Melee in Cleveland, Browns player smashed other player in the head with his own helmet.
10. Coach wears derogatory t-shirt claiming the other team started it.
11. Browns cut talented wide receiver Callaway for disciplinary reasons.
12. Browns beat maybe worst team in the league Dolphins, coach gives team the week off until Wednesday on the week they play the Steelers again.
13. Browns do not allow starting safety to make the Trip to Pittsburgh for disciplinary reasons, makes already depleted secondary even worse.
14. Browns have a chance to win critical game to improve playoff chances and look totally flat, lose to rookie QB from Samford.
15. Head coach continues to tell fans the team was prepared to play takes minimal responsibility for the fact that we suck.


So my question is simple.. if Freddie is the guy that shows up in the spring for OTAs... is he the guy that is going to fix all of this? I have serious doubts my brother. I'm sure all of the players "like him", but it is almost as equally clear that they don't respect him... and that's a hard thing to change.


16. Browns Safety threatens to kill people on Twitter, including team employee, Dustin Fox
17. Browns lead the league in player ejections
18. Baker walks out of media session because he doesn't like a question
19. Freddie boasts about how the Browns "wont's back down to anybody" after team starts multiple fights during practice session with Colts that is ultimately cancelled for the day.


This list of 19 things is what has made this season very frustrating and almost as difficult as our 0-16 season.


It's worse. Everyone knew they were tanking then and 2 wins (at most) was the likelihood.

This season has been an unmitigated disaster. 99% of the even the most cynical fans would not have predicted we'd be playing meaningless football in December, struggle to even score 20 points per game given the offensive weapons, make OBJ look like a JAG, etc..

And most alarming, the team's future is still murky.

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#1702685 - 12/05/19 12:11 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
s003apr Offline

2nd String

Registered: 12/23/09
Posts: 288
Ron Rivera would be a great fit here in Cleveland. He is exactly what this team needs. He is a good friend with Wilks and will keep him on as Defensive Coordinator.

Under his watch, the Panthers have been consistently one of the least penalized teams in the league.
2019 - Third least penalized team
2018 - Third least penalized team
2017 - Least penalized team

I wasn't looking forward to another coaching change and thought it would be best to stick with Kitchens at least another year, but Rivera is a guy that would change my mind.

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#1702692 - 12/05/19 06:54 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: s003apr]
GMdawg Offline

Legend

Registered: 09/10/06
Posts: 24401
Loc: ohio
Ron had six losing seasons out nine. Many Browns fans would want him run out of town before the end of his first season.

Browns fans wanted Bill B run out of town.

Hell Marty Schottenheimer was 44-27 as a Browns coach and fans wanted him run out of town notallthere
_________________________
I AM ALWAYS RIGHT... except when I am wrong.

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#1702697 - 12/05/19 07:30 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: GMdawg]
Haus Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 6448
In fairness to us fans, illogical as we may be, we still have a better track record than actual Browns front offices.

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#1702702 - 12/05/19 07:59 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
willitevachange Offline
Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/07/17
Posts: 8945
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
That isn't what my source said. But after checking other sources, you are right. Here's where I got my info....

Quote:
1991 Pittsburgh Steelers Head Coach 7-9-0 0-0

https://pro-football-history.com/coach/79/bill-cowher-bio


Would you like to point out first year head coaches who did badly only to turn it around and become great coaches?

Parcells started 9-7

Belichick in his first year at New England went 5-11

His first two years in Cleveland he went 6-10 and then 7-9.

Bill Walsh started out 2-14

I could go on with the list. But as you can see, trying to say you have an open and shut case is far from true.

Unless of course you're trying to say Bill Walsh or Bill Belichick wouldn't have been worth giving time to develop.



None of those coaches had the team to start with that Freddie has. That's a big key point your neglecting to mention. They built a team and some an entire organization. Freddie cant build a wet fart.

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#1702708 - 12/05/19 08:10 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
willitevachange Offline
Hall of Famer

Registered: 09/07/17
Posts: 8945
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I don't have a clue if he can fix all of that. I actually would understand if they replace him.

I just think it would be a shady move from Dorsey. He knew Freddie had never been a HC at any level. He knew Freddie had actually only been a coordinator for half a season. Knowing all of that, if you make that choice you have to be aware that it's going to take some time to adjust to things.

Pulling the plug that soon would mean Dorsey never intended to give Freddie an actual chance to ever succeed as an NFL HC.

I understand the NFL stands for, "Not For Long" and that the window isn't huge. But I also feel if Dorsey didn't understand the situation he put the team into when he hired Freddie, it speaks volumes.
Again, your failing to take into consideration one big thing. Freddie and his actions.

It would be one thing if we were losing games. It would be one thing if the team was just not on the same page.

But its not. It is CONSTANT discord. They say one thing, do another.

Heck, just yesterday "Baker will not be limited in anyway" - Freddie

Then:

Baker Mayfield limited at practice, doesn't throw a single ball and hast all week.

"We need to run the ball more in those situations, I have to call better plays"

Then:

SAME EXACT SCENARIO - Empty set on the goal line with passes galore, again.

I can work with leanring curves, bro. We all can and we all expected them. The problem is, Freddie is 1. not learning 2. Has show a blatent defiance 3. Refuses to hold himself accountable and change

Dorsey said it was going to be tough, and he was right - but the issue is here, the REASONS it is tough right now, SHOULDNT BE. The reasons it has been tough are things that easily fixed, but the stubborn HC refuses to change.

Hey, I can live with a bad timeout in at half. But when you do it for weeks in a row - that's an issue. LEARN.

Hey, I can live with a bad challenge, but when you do it over and over - that's an issue. LEARN.

Hey, I can live with some penalties in the early part of the year. But when it went on for weeks - and it took you 8 weeks to call Parcells for advice - that's an issue. LEARN FASTER

Hey, I can live with a bad roster decision. But when you start Callaway for weeks after coming off suspension and not giving effort at camp over Hollywood and others who are putting in the work - that's an issue. LEARN

The players have no foundation, the players do not respect his authority, they players are undisciplined and unorganized. This is a rudderless ship heading for land and we cant get out of the way.

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#1702715 - 12/05/19 08:30 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: willitevachange]
Haus Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 04/16/07
Posts: 6448
The thing about all this is the Browns have actually had opportunities for good, even excellent coaches.

Haslam overruled the analytics people, hiring Hue Jackson instead of Sean McDermott. Both teams were in rebuilding mode; the Browns went 1-15 while the Bills went 9-7 and made the playoffs.

The Browns proceeded to keep Hue after going 1-15 (understandable) and then 0-16 (completely inexcusable). We could have had our head coach of the future in place for Baker's rookie year, which would have made perfect sense.

That unmitigated disaster continued for another half a season where we made the long (LONG) overdue change. And you know what? The Browns got lucky as heck.

Gregg Williams is one of those guys who's a better head coach than coordinator. He fixed the team in two weeks time. He had a less-talented version of this team playing sound, disciplined football and finished with a WINNING RECORD.

If Gregg Williams wasn't the answer, we had other options. This was a highly desirable job. Bruce Arians was openly lobbying to come here and would have kept Freddie on as OC. Stefanski has that Vikings offense playing pretty well.

So what do we do? We turn the team over to a guy who had half a season's worth of coordinator experience, who was never more than a position coach for his 20 year coaching career before that. Why?? It makes no sense. It never made any sense and I suspect the only reason anyone even got on board with it was that Dorsey's cred was at an all-time high, he was the football guy, and we were going to trust his judgement. That's what got me anyway.

Ugh. It's all so frustrating, knowing all the chances we had and how we ended up where we are today.


Edited by Haus (12/05/19 08:46 AM)

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#1702725 - 12/05/19 09:06 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: GMdawg]
devicedawg Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 03/05/13
Posts: 4548
80% Browns fans at the start of the year: we aren't a playoff team and we'll finish around .500, 9-7 at best.

80% Browns fans now as we approach .500 as they predicted: Freddie didn't get it done. He needs to go.

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#1702726 - 12/05/19 09:08 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Haus]
devicedawg Offline

Hall of Famer

Registered: 03/05/13
Posts: 4548
Bruce is also 5-7 in Tampa. We dodged a bullet there.

My money is on Freddie retaining his job.

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#1702727 - 12/05/19 09:11 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
Haus Offline

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I never wanted Bruce Arians. I still think he's a good coach though, and he would have kept Kitchens on board as OC. Again, not my choice, but it would have made sense to have that continuity there with the offense, without thrusting Kitchens into the head job which he was not ready for.

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#1702728 - 12/05/19 09:16 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
leadtheway Offline

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Bruce didn't inherit much talent and winston is pure garbage, but Arians has that offense playing lights out..They are top 5. Analytics said Stefanski was the guy, but Dorsey strong-armed freddie into the position
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#1702730 - 12/05/19 09:17 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Haus]
devicedawg Offline

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I don't disagree about continuity. I didn't want to lose Kitchens last year. I thought it looked like he and Mayfield had pretty good chemistry in the second half.

Im not surprised he was hired as the HC. If he wasn't ready, that's not Freddie's fault. That fault falls on whomever hired him.

If Freddie is let go, I like Rivera from the standpoint that I believe some coaches will remain. I could be wrong. But I also think if Freddie is fired McCarthy is the lead candidate to succeed him.

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#1702732 - 12/05/19 09:20 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
Bard Dawg Offline

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So almost everybody got something right. I must have drowned in the punchbowl of Kool-aid.
I really expected this group to surprise. Then this offense with BM's falloff certainly lowered a bar that FK can'seem to improve much and actually was sorry versus teams with about equal talent. Some of this haas to be the "system symptoms" IMO. A passing team that can't reliably when it must, a running team that is predictable but won't in the second half, or can't get it done much in the RZ.

Linebackers? OL? Offensive "hybrid" and its bottom-line results? I don't think we have connected our dots well enough. I also think we have talent and we have depth. Might need a heart transplant so more of us want a win more than our opponents poke
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#1702733 - 12/05/19 09:20 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
jfanent Offline

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Originally Posted By: devicedawg
80% Browns fans at the start of the year: we aren't a playoff team and we'll finish around .500, 9-7 at best.

80% Browns fans now as we approach .500 as they predicted: Freddie didn't get it done. He needs to go.


Where'd you get those stats? If you go by our poll, 90% of the posters predicted a minimum of 9 wins, most of those 10 or more. 9% predicted 8 or fewer.
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#1702738 - 12/05/19 09:38 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Haus]
oobernoober Offline

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I thought Arians was a slam dunk. Already knows Freddie, could groom him for a few years, and only a few years because of Arians age and health.
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#1702741 - 12/05/19 10:01 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Haus]
GMdawg Offline

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Originally Posted By: Haus
In fairness to us fans, illogical as we may be, we still have a better track record than actual Browns front offices.


Really rofl Just how many coaches have us fans hired?
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#1702750 - 12/05/19 10:22 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: GMdawg]
Haus Offline

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What I mean is that public opinion/popular sentiment has generally been better than what Browns ownership has actually done. At least that's my impression.

Let me go ahead and list the coaches we've had since our return.

Chris Palmer
Butch Davis
Terry Robiskie (interim)
Romeo Crennel
Eric Mangini
Pat Shurmur
Rob Chudzinski
Mike Pettine
Hue Jackson
Gregg Williams (interim)
Freddie Kitchens

I feel us Dawgtalkers would have ended up with a better list than that over the years..

edit: Pat Shurmur was the coach when the Haslams bought the team. Then, everybody from Chudzinski and on were ultimately Haslam hires, with varying degrees of input from others.

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#1702759 - 12/05/19 11:46 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: jfanent]
Milk Man Offline

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Originally Posted By: jfanent
Originally Posted By: devicedawg
80% Browns fans at the start of the year: we aren't a playoff team and we'll finish around .500, 9-7 at best.

80% Browns fans now as we approach .500 as they predicted: Freddie didn't get it done. He needs to go.


Where'd you get those stats? If you go by our poll, 90% of the posters predicted a minimum of 9 wins, most of those 10 or more. 9% predicted 8 or fewer.


My thoughts exactly. With the talent on this team anything short of a wild card would and should be considered a major failure.

Anyone that didn't think this was a playoff ready team was certainly in the minority.

Hell, just look at the season prediction thread on here.

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#1702766 - 12/05/19 12:08 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
DCDAWGFAN Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I don't have a clue if he can fix all of that. I actually would understand if they replace him.

I just think it would be a shady move from Dorsey. He knew Freddie had never been a HC at any level. He knew Freddie had actually only been a coordinator for half a season. Knowing all of that, if you make that choice you have to be aware that it's going to take some time to adjust to things.

Pulling the plug that soon would mean Dorsey never intended to give Freddie an actual chance to ever succeed as an NFL HC.

I understand the NFL stands for, "Not For Long" and that the window isn't huge. But I also feel if Dorsey didn't understand the situation he put the team into when he hired Freddie, it speaks volumes.

Pit, I don't really disagree with any of that. I'm sure Dorsey knew there would be some kind of a learning curve, I'm just not sure he expected what he has seen.. and the big question, that only Dorsey can answer, is Freddie willing to change enough to get up that learning curve. At least in his public pressers, Freddie has been fairly defiant in that he doesn't think he's doing anything wrong and that the team has been adequately prepared to play each week. Clearly that has not been the case.

But my biggest concern, if you come in like Tom Coughlin as the ultimate hard-arse, if it proves to be too much, you can always soften up and back off a little. If you come in as the folksy guy from Alabama who wants to be everybody's friend, and then have to tighten up, it doesn't always work as well.

So the two questions Dorsey has to answer:

1. Is Freddie willing to learn and make the changes necessary to get this team to respond at a high level consistently.
2. Are the players willing to accept those changes..
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#1702767 - 12/05/19 12:13 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
FL_Dawg Offline

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j/c,
John Dorsey is on record as stating that we need to be patient with this team.

To me that implied that he knew that there would be some bumps along the way.

Just how much can be debated, but the fact of his caution on optimism is there if anyone cares to see and or hear it.
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#1702768 - 12/05/19 12:18 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: FL_Dawg]
Dawgs4Life Offline

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Yeah, I mean if our FO believes there is true progress and that continuity is the way to go ... then there’s nothing we can do but accept and hope. Firing a coach just to fire him is dumb, but keeping one to keep him is also dumb. So, we’ll see
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#1702774 - 12/05/19 12:24 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Milk Man]
devicedawg Offline

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Originally Posted By: Milk Man
Originally Posted By: jfanent
Originally Posted By: devicedawg
80% Browns fans at the start of the year: we aren't a playoff team and we'll finish around .500, 9-7 at best.

80% Browns fans now as we approach .500 as they predicted: Freddie didn't get it done. He needs to go.


Where'd you get those stats? If you go by our poll, 90% of the posters predicted a minimum of 9 wins, most of those 10 or more. 9% predicted 8 or fewer.


My thoughts exactly. With the talent on this team anything short of a wild card would and should be considered a major failure.

Anyone that didn't think this was a playoff ready team was certainly in the minority.

Hell, just look at the season prediction thread on here.



I know a lot of fans that do not post here.... cool

In all fairness, it's a hyperbole... but it's more of the point that some here and others I know who aren't "here" want Kitchens gone and those are some of the ones who said we were 2-3 years from the playoffs.

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#1702781 - 12/05/19 12:41 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Haus]
devicedawg Offline

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Originally Posted By: Haus
What I mean is that public opinion/popular sentiment has generally been better than what Browns ownership has actually done. At least that's my impression.

Let me go ahead and list the coaches we've had since our return.

Chris Palmer
Butch Davis
Terry Robiskie (interim)
Romeo Crennel
Eric Mangini
Pat Shurmur
Rob Chudzinski
Mike Pettine
Hue Jackson
Gregg Williams (interim)
Freddie Kitchens

I feel us Dawgtalkers would have ended up with a better list than that over the years..

edit: Pat Shurmur was the coach when the Haslams bought the team. Then, everybody from Chudzinski and on were ultimately Haslam hires, with varying degrees of input from others.




With your list, I think there's always an issue of not giving the HC enough time or the HC and front office were not on the same page.

I really wish Lerner would have stayed the course with Mangini and not hired Holmgren. I think our recent history would be vastly different.

On that list, I can't think of too many times we had a GM who hired the HC and gave him time. Firing Kitchens would be no different.

We've been an ever changing franchise and we're all impatient for wins. No doubt.

I'd have to think that Freddie isn't going anywhere.

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#1702785 - 12/05/19 01:15 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
oobernoober Offline

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Without the benefit of hindsight, I don't think I would be able to argue the Holmgren move. Mangini was absolutely decimating this roster in terms of talent. He was basically doing a Sashi, just unintentionally.

Then you have Holmgren, at a point when nobody realized he was completely useless, come in and attempt a traditional setup. Remembering what the mangini years were like, I would've had a hard time stomaching that for much longer and passing up a more normal fo.
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#1702798 - 12/05/19 01:39 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
willitevachange Offline
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Registered: 09/07/17
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Originally Posted By: devicedawg
Originally Posted By: Milk Man
Originally Posted By: jfanent
Originally Posted By: devicedawg
80% Browns fans at the start of the year: we aren't a playoff team and we'll finish around .500, 9-7 at best.

80% Browns fans now as we approach .500 as they predicted: Freddie didn't get it done. He needs to go.


Where'd you get those stats? If you go by our poll, 90% of the posters predicted a minimum of 9 wins, most of those 10 or more. 9% predicted 8 or fewer.


My thoughts exactly. With the talent on this team anything short of a wild card would and should be considered a major failure.

Anyone that didn't think this was a playoff ready team was certainly in the minority.

Hell, just look at the season prediction thread on here.



I know a lot of fans that do not post here.... cool

In all fairness, it's a hyperbole... but it's more of the point that some here and others I know who aren't "here" want Kitchens gone and those are some of the ones who said we were 2-3 years from the playoffs.
Simply looking at the W-L record in this case doesn't really matter.

If we were a team that was getting better, improving, and fixing mistakes I would be ok with another year after 8-8

But look at the freaking list of things that have gone on this year (what it up to 20), you have to look at the reasons WHY we are where we are. And you have to look at as "is Freddie getting better". He is not.

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#1702879 - 12/05/19 03:49 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: oobernoober]
devicedawg Offline

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As far as Mangini is concerned I would have him coach, not acquire players.

Mangini was hired prior to the GM being hired.

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#1702880 - 12/05/19 03:51 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: willitevachange]
devicedawg Offline

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We went from 2-6 to 5-7. I'd qualify that as getting better.

Baker's numbers have also improved and we've played some of the toughest defenses in recent weeks.

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#1702889 - 12/05/19 04:05 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
willitevachange Offline
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Originally Posted By: devicedawg
We went from 2-6 to 5-7. I'd qualify that as getting better.

Baker's numbers have also improved and we've played some of the toughest defenses in recent weeks.
compared to last year, with more talent, we have not gotten better. Neither has baker.

You can try to twist whatever you want. The facts are this team has regressed, our QB has regressed, and we have MASSIVELY underperformed with the level of talent we have.

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#1702905 - 12/05/19 04:26 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
oobernoober Offline

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True, but that wasn't the situation. While I don't presume to know anything about anybody associated with that FO, rumors swirled that Mangini was a know-it-all control freak. The story was he wouldn't have wanted a new GM brought in (replacement for Kokinis) to be his boss. My post was in response to using the benefit of hindsight to say that we should've never hired Holmgren. Obviously we all know that that is a true statement (we should not have hired him), but I argue the implied part of the statement that we should've known.
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#1702912 - 12/05/19 04:39 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
Haus Offline

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Quote:
With your list, I think there's always an issue of not giving the HC enough time or the HC and front office were not on the same page.

I really wish Lerner would have stayed the course with Mangini and not hired Holmgren. I think our recent history would be vastly different.

On that list, I can't think of too many times we had a GM who hired the HC and gave him time. Firing Kitchens would be no different.

We've been an ever changing franchise and we're all impatient for wins. No doubt.

I'd have to think that Freddie isn't going anywhere.

Good points.

I agree with you about Mangini actually. Good coach, very intelligent, ran highly organized/efficient practices (maybe to a fault.. is that possible?) I think there were some issues there behind the scenes that weren't made public.

Chud should have gotten at least a second year. Kitchens should too.

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#1702976 - 12/06/19 07:25 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: willitevachange]
devicedawg Offline

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I don't necessarily disagree, and I completely disagree with the notion that Dorsey hired Kitchens knowing he could struggle this year because he's a first year head coach. Expectations were high and among others, Dorsey had visions of a division title.

The problem is that it happened. Do you stay the course or find a new coach who may or may not see better results?

My biggest concern for this franchise aside from the owner isn't the head coach, but the GM at this point. I've raised my concerns on other threads.

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#1702978 - 12/06/19 07:32 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: oobernoober]
devicedawg Offline

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I backed Holmgren when he was here, but I wasn't necessarily on board for the hire.

If you think about Holmgren's past, there's no way we should have hired him for the position. He failed as GM in Seattle and actually relinquished the position.

A lot of moves we've made were to bring excitement to this franchise. Hiring Holmgren, drafting Johnny. It's a business. These acquisitions sold tickets.

I just wish we would do it right instead of trying to just sell tickets.

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#1702986 - 12/06/19 07:59 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
MemphisBrownie Offline

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Quote:
and I completely disagree with the notion that Dorsey hired Kitchens knowing he could struggle this year because he's a first year head coach.


Agreed. Dorsey didn't make the trades of current and future assets (namely a first round pick) and young players for high-priced players in 2019 just to settle for Kitchens struggling in his first year and punting 2019 essentially.

Dorsey hired Kitchens believing he would be a good head coach to win THIS year.

Whoever says otherwise is only fooling themselves.
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#1702994 - 12/06/19 08:40 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
leadtheway Offline

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yep, this team was built to start winning now. Anything short of atleast a playoff berth and you haven't moved forward on the progress made last year. We didn't have this much drama during 1-15 and 0-16. It's appalling and direct reflection of the culture Freddie and Dorsey have built. If Dorsey makes the right call and replaces freddie as a failed experiment I'd have more respect for him than him keeping him and letting his ego get in the way of what's best for the team. He deserves a do over since he's never hired a coach before..Maybe this time he'll trust his team when they recommend someone
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#1703006 - 12/06/19 09:17 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
willitevachange Offline
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Originally Posted By: devicedawg
I don't necessarily disagree, and I completely disagree with the notion that Dorsey hired Kitchens knowing he could struggle this year because he's a first year head coach. Expectations were high and among others, Dorsey had visions of a division title.

The problem is that it happened. Do you stay the course or find a new coach who may or may not see better results?

My biggest concern for this franchise aside from the owner isn't the head coach, but the GM at this point. I've raised my concerns on other threads.
I completely agree with you on this.

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#1703011 - 12/06/19 09:24 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: leadtheway]
MemphisBrownie Offline

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Quote:
If Dorsey makes the right call and replaces freddie as a failed experiment


I don't know if replacing Freddie is the right call or if he is a failed experiment though he has looked like trash. However, I do know that Dorsey has punted seemlingly important players and a coach within a very short time period in while in his position as GM. Not carryovers.

Coaches: Haley (signed on in 2018)
Players: Corbett (2018), Avery (2018), Calloway (2018).

Haley was half a season.

It's more on the players' side than the coaches, but the precedence is there.

I'd understand to a degree if Kitchens is retained.
I'd understand firing him as well.

Either way, this current dynamic doesn't look very promising at this point in time.
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#1703021 - 12/06/19 09:39 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: MemphisBrownie]
devicedawg Offline

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It sometimes surprises me how much blind faith people are putting in our GM.

I've seen people say Baker isn't the guy and Freddie isn't the guy. I've read on here that Ward is a bust and the ONLY pick we got right is Nick Chubb, yet Dorsey is still a star GM.

From some of the things I've been a witness to in recent years, the long term prognosis of this franchise concerns me. We aren't building for the future, we are building for today. I don't necessarily have an issue with this, but we are failing in all facets.

Including the owner, the one guy everyone has put their faith in, is also the guy who put us in the spot.

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#1703027 - 12/06/19 09:48 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: MemphisBrownie]
oobernoober Offline

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The only thing I might want to argue is the Haley hiring/firing. Haley was hired as a supplement to the Hue coaching staff. I really don't think he lost much sleep tossing Haley out with Hue. Not the same thing as hiring a new HC, imo.
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#1703029 - 12/06/19 09:52 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: oobernoober]
MemphisBrownie Offline

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Originally Posted By: oobernoober
The only thing I might want to argue is the Haley hiring/firing. Haley was hired as a supplement to the Hue coaching staff. I really don't think he lost much sleep tossing Haley out with Hue. Not the same thing as hiring a new HC, imo.


I understand that angle. But he was the only one let go. Now, there were clear issues between Hue and Haley, but he easily could have been retained like the others to ride out the season.

But there is more evidence on the player side than the coaching side, yes. I guess my point is, that doesn't seem like Dorsey has a problem moving on from someone.

The larger issue, to me, is the initial decision by Dorsey in the first place.
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#1703030 - 12/06/19 09:52 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
oobernoober Offline

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I put my blind faith in Dorsey.

I don't think Baker is a bust. He's working through a slump/regression and a dumb offensive scheme. If you put the bust label on every QB as soon as they hit their sophomore slump, there wouldn't be any QBs in the NFL.

Dorsey owns Calloway and Corbett as far as busts go (and Calloway was a calculated gamble). We spent a 4th for a 1st-round talent.

Calling Baker, Ward, and even Freddie a bust before they're even done with their second season is ridiculous.
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#1703031 - 12/06/19 09:54 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
Haus Offline

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I think time will tell on Dorsey. The truth is we all probably were too high on him in year one. It's always easy to be misled by the performance of a GM when a franchise shifts from 'asset accumulation' mode to 'asset spending' mode. It's more common to see this in the NBA but it does happen in the NFL too. These Browns are an example.

That said, he did a lot of good things that first year. Now some of it is falling back to earth and there have been no shortage of issues this season. Trading away a good O-lineman only to see that unit struggle, Callaway cut, Randall's issues, Baker regressing, and so on.

What to make of all of it? As said earlier, time will tell. It's not like we are going to move on from Dorsey after this season.

That said, he's going to have to put a winning team on the field sooner rather than later. He has had the tools to make things work. He had the draft picks and 9-figures of cap space to build the team how he sees fits. This is his QB, taken with the #1 overall pick, and his head coach who he threw his weight around for. The results are on him.

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#1703041 - 12/06/19 10:01 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: oobernoober]
willitevachange Offline
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Originally Posted By: oobernoober
The only thing I might want to argue is the Haley hiring/firing. Haley was hired as a supplement to the Hue coaching staff. I really don't think he lost much sleep tossing Haley out with Hue. Not the same thing as hiring a new HC, imo.
I think Haley was brought in here to be the HC. I think Haley acted a fool, and showed himself the door.

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#1703042 - 12/06/19 10:02 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Haus]
oobernoober Offline

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Originally Posted By: Haus
I think time will tell on Dorsey. The truth is we all probably were too high on him in year one. It's always easy to be misled by the performance of a GM when a franchise shifts from 'asset accumulation' mode to 'asset spending' mode. It's more common to see this in the NBA but it does happen in the NFL too. These Browns are an example.

That said, he did a lot of good things that first year. Now some of it is falling back to earth and there have been no shortage of issues this season. Trading away a good O-lineman only to see that unit struggle, Callaway cut, Randall's issues, Baker regressing, and so on.

What to make of all of it? As said earlier, time will tell. It's not like we are going to move on from Dorsey after this season.

That said, he's going to have to put a winning team on the field sooner rather than later. He has had the tools to make things work. He had the draft picks and 9-figures of cap space to build the team how he sees fits. This is his QB, taken with the #1 overall pick, and his head coach who he threw his weight around for. The results are on him.



Aside from being the one that hired our current coach, most of this stuff doesn't fall on Dorsey. JD navigated us out of NFL roster talent hell. Yes, he was given a boatload of assets from Sashi (which he accumulated by record-level losing), but he made solid choices with the majority of those assets. He's also not done. Even if you don't want Dorsey here, there's no way with Haslam's track record that you trust we can find someone that will do a better job.

Dorsey saw Corbett and Calloway weren't working out, and fixed that. While I feel differently about what we should do with Freddie every day, I think Dorsey will figure it out.
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#1703048 - 12/06/19 10:20 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: oobernoober]
Haus Offline

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I don't want to move on from Dorsey. What I said was time will tell on his performance. This may still take years.

Also, the things I listed *are* on Dorsey. A lot of things that are put on the coach are also influenced by what players they are given in the first place. If you trade for a diva, and he continues to act like a diva, that is more on the GM than it is on the coach.

There are different ways to build a team and different philosophies to evaluating players. Dorsey-- both in his time with KC and here-- clearly prioritizes physical talent over bringing in smart/disciplined players. I'm not saying that's right or wrong; it's just an observation.

When some of those physical gifted, but undisciplined players start acting up, that comes with the territory.

John Dorsey's record here is 12-15-1. We're 5-7 this season. I'm certainly willing to give him time to improve (it's much better than what we had before) but I will never be satisfied with a losing record.

It's all good. Some people believe in moral victories. I just happen to not be one of them.

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#1703054 - 12/06/19 10:36 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: oobernoober]
bonefish Online   content

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Good post.

Being a GM you have to accept and know that you will not always be right.

No GM hits 1000 on draft choices. Not trades work. Some free agent signings will not work out to well.

But when you look at how NFL rosters change each year it includes lots of personnel decisions. You start training camp with 90 guys. They get paired down to 53. Then there is the practice squad.

Most teams turn over at least a third of their roster each year.

That is a lot of decisions. In addition to handling contracts.

When you look at the decisions Dorsey has made IMO it is hard to fault the logic behind them.

As I said not all will work out.

Dorsey is by far the key guy with the Browns. For the foreseeable future he controls this team.

And I for one am good with that.

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#1703057 - 12/06/19 10:44 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: bonefish]
Haus Offline

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That I can agree with.

Dorsey could go a long way toward fixing this team by just getting some more talent on the O-line, and chilling out on players with real character concerns. Get guys in here who are professionals, will work hard, and play as a team and that'll go a long way toward fixing the discipline/culture of the franchise. Freddie needs to do a better job too.

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#1703063 - 12/06/19 11:06 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: MemphisBrownie]
PitDAWG Offline

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Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
Whoever says otherwise is only fooling themselves.


I guess Dorsey is fooling himself?

“I ask the fans to exercise a degree of patience,” he said. “We are building this thing to last 10 years, not just have one good year.” - John Dorsey.

Maybe it's you who are fooling yourself?
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1703066 - 12/06/19 11:12 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
Haus Offline

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We have one of the highest cap spends in the league this year, despite several key players being on cost-controlled rookie contracts. We've made trades to win now (OBJ) and even in the past (Tyrod Taylor). We're clearly trying to win now.

That said, the team is still in good shape cap wise due to carryover, we still have all of our future picks, plus some mid-late rounders from other teams. So I think there are elements of truth to both.


Edited by Haus (12/06/19 11:14 AM)

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#1703071 - 12/06/19 11:26 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Haus]
PitDAWG Offline

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What is probably the funniest thing to me is it's not like you sign players to one year deals. It's not like they're leaving next year. You sign them usually to three and four year deals.

Unless of course you see that player as a band aid. Like he sees Robinson. People act as though he doesn't see the issue there but the contract makes it obvious he does.

There are too many people around here with "Rome was built in a day" syndrome.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1703072 - 12/06/19 11:27 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
WSU Willie Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Originally Posted By: MemphisBrownie
Whoever says otherwise is only fooling themselves.


I guess Dorsey is fooling himself?

“I ask the fans to exercise a degree of patience,” he said. “We are building this thing to last 10 years, not just have one good year.” - John Dorsey.

Maybe it's you who are fooling yourself?


Dorsey's words say one thing...his actions say another.

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#1703073 - 12/06/19 11:29 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Haus]
Milk Man Offline

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j/c...

My oh my, has Dorsey learned to not set expectations in his short time as GM. Better to error on the side of caution when it's your fingerprints on the product! ....

"I believe we have to be competitive in the AFC North and my total objective going into the '18 season is to win the AFC North. Anything else to me is unacceptable.'' - John Dorsey

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#1703076 - 12/06/19 11:32 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Milk Man]
MemphisBrownie Offline

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Originally Posted By: Milk Man
j/c...

My oh my, has Dorsey learned to not set expectations in his short time as GM. Better to error on the side of caution when it's your fingerprints on the product! ....

"I believe we have to be competitive in the AFC North and my total objective going into the '18 season is to win the AFC North. Anything else to me is unacceptable.'' - John Dorsey


There's a better quote for you Pitdawg!

As I said...."fooling themselves".
_________________________
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#1703091 - 12/06/19 11:55 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: MemphisBrownie]
PitDAWG Offline

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I love the issue you always have with my sigs. [sarcasm]It's the one thing in life that keeps me going.[/sarcasm]

Once you accept mediocrity you will never improve.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1703096 - 12/06/19 12:02 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
MemphisBrownie Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
I love the issue you always have with my sigs. [sarcasm]It's the one thing in life that keeps me going.[/sarcasm]

Once you accept mediocrity you will never improve.


I simply like how you have to walk everything back from the quotes you use. Pointing that out is, honestly, a ton of fun. I cannot lie.
_________________________
"We'll see how much Brat...errr..........Baker improves w/out Hue in his way."

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#1703101 - 12/06/19 12:07 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: MemphisBrownie]
PitDAWG Offline

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Empty rhetoric must be your cup of tea.

Dorsey plainly said that losing is unacceptable but to be patient.

What should he say" "If we lose I accept that"?

You lack of comprehension here is remarkable. But you go on with your bad self.

rofl
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1703307 - 12/07/19 12:56 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
DevilDawg2847 Offline

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Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Empty rhetoric must be your cup of tea.

Dorsey plainly said that losing is unacceptable but to be patient.

What should he say" "If we lose I accept that"?

You lack of comprehension here is remarkable. But you go on with your bad self.

rofl


Dorsey didn’t just say losing was unacceptable. He set a specific expectation and said anything short of that is unacceptable. If there was ever a time for us as fans to be patient on the way to meeting his stated expectations it would be the beginning of the season when a young team is likely to have the hardest time gelling.

And for arguments sake, let’s say Dorsey didn’t have such lofty intentions and was prepared for a rocky of not brutal season. This team has since clearly shown it has the talent and ability to be better than it has been. When a team has that much potential it’s unacceptable for the HC to be the one holding success back.
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#1703333 - 12/07/19 08:43 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: DevilDawg2847]
Bard Dawg Offline

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Sound advice. Tired of listening to a bullet list of explanations and regret. We seem pretty sure in hindsight during interviews, know what we need moving forward. We should. It is the same list from about 6 weeks prior.

It is OK to tackle first. Pound this group. Find more than you have managed.
_________________________
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880

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#1703335 - 12/07/19 08:44 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: DevilDawg2847]
WSU Willie Offline

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Registered: 09/23/06
Posts: 5763
Originally Posted By: DevilDawg2847
Originally Posted By: PitDAWG
Empty rhetoric must be your cup of tea.

Dorsey plainly said that losing is unacceptable but to be patient.

What should he say" "If we lose I accept that"?

You lack of comprehension here is remarkable. But you go on with your bad self.

rofl


Dorsey didn’t just say losing was unacceptable. He set a specific expectation and said anything short of that is unacceptable. If there was ever a time for us as fans to be patient on the way to meeting his stated expectations it would be the beginning of the season when a young team is likely to have the hardest time gelling.

And for arguments sake, let’s say Dorsey didn’t have such lofty intentions and was prepared for a rocky of not brutal season. This team has since clearly shown it has the talent and ability to be better than it has been. When a team has that much potential it’s unacceptable for the HC to be the one holding success back.


You hit the nail on the head. When/if FK is relieved of his duties, that bolded statement above will be the summation of the reason.

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#1703358 - 12/07/19 10:44 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: DevilDawg2847]
PitDAWG Offline

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Posts: 42620
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
Everyone I know with a competitive nature sets goals. They also have realistic expectations. Dorsey stated both. One doesn't trump the other one.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1705580 - 12/11/19 12:30 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
GratefulDawg Offline

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#gmSTRONG

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#1705588 - 12/11/19 01:02 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: GratefulDawg]
oobernoober Offline

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Registered: 11/24/08
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Randall has to be intentionally working his way out of Cleveland. I refuse to believe he's just naturally this much of a clown.
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#1705714 - 12/12/19 12:11 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: oobernoober]
devicedawg Offline

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Registered: 03/05/13
Posts: 4548

Dorsey and Haslam difference of opinion on Kitchens


Quote:

By
Ryan Gosling -
December 11, 2019

The Cleveland Browns are now 6-7 on the season, and all hopes of a deep playoff run have dissipated alongside their Super Bowl aspirations. They’re not mathematically eliminated from the postseason, but chances are slim. And with that comes consequences for some in the organization, including head coach Freddie Kitchens.

However, sources have told Pro Football Network Insiders Ben Allbright and Tony Pauline that there is a difference of opinion when it comes to Kitchens. On one side is general manager John Dorsey, who is believed to be in favor of keeping Kitchens beyond this season. On the other side is owner Jimmy Haslam, who is disappointed in the team’s performance and would consider a head coaching change, especially if Kitchens does not win the remainder of the Browns’ games.

To win out, it would mean that Cleveland would have defeated the Baltimore Ravens, Arizona Cardinals, and Cincinnati Bengals. Two of those games might seem attainable, but the divisional game against Baltimore could help push Haslam to make a change.

Some might wonder – with a team stacked with talent, how did we get to this point? For those in the building who are not big fans of Kitchens, they’ll point to the man himself. Although he was a running backs coach, tight ends coach, and even quarterbacks coach throughout his NFL coaching career, he never once held the position of offensive coordinator (with the exception of the interim tag in 2018) or head coach at any collegiate or professional level.

Thus, some felt he was not equipped to handle the wide array of responsibilities that a head coach is responsible for when he was given the position in 2019. Their beliefs were further strengthened by recent reports that the team has become dysfunctional and undisciplined.

For example, the Browns have had issues with numerous players this season, including cornerbacks Damarious Randall and Jerome Whitehead, wide receiver Antonio Callaway, and defensive end Myles Garrett. They also have had issues on the field. This season, they are ranked within the top five in the league in penalties, which includes 105 infractions for nearly 960 yards.

But it also goes beyond that. On the upcoming podcast episode of PFN Draft Insiders Thursday morning with Pauline and Andy Herman, Pauline will talk about how sources told him that there are simply “too many egos in the building.”

These same sources have told Pauline that they think Dorsey will ultimately be able to convince Haslam to keep Kitchens for at least another season. However, as Allbright has heard, losing the remaining games would become a very tough sell for Dorsey.
Early warning signs that trouble was brewing

Even before the regular season began, there were indications that this team was heading in the wrong direction. During a joint practice with the Indianapolis Colts, a number of fights broke out between the teams. Kitchens said that he had encouraged his players to be physical and to set the tone. Unfortunately, that led to four separate skirmishes throughout the second day of practice. One of the said skirmishes actually led to a bench-clearing brawl. When the day was over, Kitchens was asked about how he would handle the situation. His response to the media was quite nonchalant.

“We will see what caused it and what happened, then evaluate the situation. But we’re not going to take anything from anybody either.”

In the opening game of the season, the Cleveland Browns were blown out by the Tennessee Titans 43-13. During the game, the Browns were penalized an incredible 18 times for 182 yards. At some point in the days or weeks following that game, Garrett was interviewed by Yahoo Sports regarding the subject of discipline. He admitted the team had been struggling in that department.

“Discipline needs to improve, it wasn’t there for the first week, and we kind of fooled ourselves in the things that we were doing that will prepare us to win a game like that. So we’ll just have to do better with what we’re doing each week and every day so we don’t fall into those traps where there’s no unnecessary roughness penalties, or just alignment, assignment, and technique.”
A culmination of undisciplined and dysfunctional play

The peak of the Browns undisciplined season was on full display in the first of the teams two meetings with division rival Pittsburgh Steelers. During a Thursday night football game, near the end of a Browns 21-7 victory, a melee took place between the two teams. During the brawl, Garrett ripped off Steelers quarterback Mason Rudolph’s helmet and swung it in his direction.

The incident ended with a total of 29 players being fined a total of $732,422. The game had been aggressive from the start, with a number of illegal hits from the Browns causing an additional $810,000 in fines. Three players were suspended for at least one game, with Garrett getting an indefinite suspension that could last throughout the offseason and training camp.
Is there a lack of accountability and leadership?

Kitchens has been asked about the culture of the Browns on a number of occasions. After the incident with Garrett, a reporter asked Kitchens about the fighting and if he condones it.

“I never okay fights,” Kitchens said. “Did I want them to get after their ass? Yes, I did. But that’s not fighting, that’s not after the whistle. Between the whistle, yes. I never condone fighting on the football field because that’s penalties. I don’t coach penalties. I don’t coach false starts. I don’t coach after the whistle grabbing somebody’s face mask. I don’t coach that.”

Even after he claimed to not condone fighting, Kitchens was once again in hot water the week before leading up to the rematch with Pittsburgh. A few days before the game, he was seen wearing “Pittsburgh started it” t-shirt and was criticized for making light of a serious situation. It certainly did not help with the narrative that he is fueling the fire of an undisciplined team.

It’s going to be an interesting few weeks for the Browns organization with Kitchens’ future in doubt. If the Browns lose out, it’s going to be hard for anyone to sell the fact that he should return for a second season. But if he is able to win at least two of the remaining three, Dorsey may just be able to get him another season in Cleveland. Will this turn into a power struggle behind the scenes? That remains to be seen.




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#1705715 - 12/12/19 01:08 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
YTownBrownsFan Online   confused

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Not at all surprising that Jimmy is a pro-fire guy ..... since he has been pretty much his entire time as Browns owner.
_________________________
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.

John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.

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#1705716 - 12/12/19 01:22 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: YTownBrownsFan]
cfrs15 Offline

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Originally Posted By: YTownBrownsFan
Not at all surprising that Jimmy is a pro-fire guy ..... since he has been pretty much his entire time as Browns owner.


Haslam is allergic to making a good decision.

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#1705718 - 12/12/19 01:34 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
lionchamp29 Offline

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Posts: 3036
no cam and fired is kinda wierd
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#1705719 - 12/12/19 01:41 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: cfrs15]
lionchamp29 Offline

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Registered: 07/19/07
Posts: 3036
Originally Posted By: cfrs15
Originally Posted By: YTownBrownsFan
Not at all surprising that Jimmy is a pro-fire guy ..... since he has been pretty much his entire time as Browns owner.


Haslam is allergic to making a good decision.


how bout j jones?
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#1705722 - 12/12/19 07:44 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: cfrs15]
devicedawg Offline

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Registered: 03/05/13
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Originally Posted By: cfrs15
Originally Posted By: YTownBrownsFan
Not at all surprising that Jimmy is a pro-fire guy ..... since he has been pretty much his entire time as Browns owner.


Haslam is allergic to making a good decision.



That's a bad allergy to have.

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#1705740 - 12/12/19 09:42 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
Knight_Of_Brown Offline

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Registered: 09/26/06
Posts: 3013
If only Haslam will wise up and realize that Dorsey is just as much of a problem and need to get him out of here too.

all those picks, and he picked exactly one Pro Bowler(Ward)

While Sashi Brown traded back in the draft every year and has 2 (Garret and Schobert) with Schobert getting his 2nd Pro Bowl berth. Im not Brown was a good GM, but he done more with less.

Not to mention Callaway was a blown pick with criminal and drug history everyone saw coming, Corbett is an LOL what an awful pick.

Dorsey has made some pretty bone headed decisions. He is just as responsible as Kitchens for this mess. Dorsey is also a big part of our disipline problems by brining in and drafting guys that are problems or won't shut up.

We will lose very little by sending Dorsey on his way right along with Kitchens. Will be some good GM candidates out there this year, like Kevin Colbert from the Steelers for example his deal runs out at the end of the season. We got options.
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The liberties of a people never were, nor ever will be, secure, when the transactions of their rulers may be concealed from them. - Patrick Henry

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#1705745 - 12/12/19 09:59 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: Knight_Of_Brown]
Hammer Online   content
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Registered: 01/19/17
Posts: 1430
Loc: Scituate, RI
Yes - let's start all over again for the umpteenth time.

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#1705746 - 12/12/19 10:04 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
oobernoober Offline

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First an foremost, thank you for posting that.

Ultimately, not much has changed in terms of where you fall on Kitchens. I know it hasn't for me.

It comes down to whether or not you think he can improve. I have doubts. I think he's shown he can't or won't see where he's making bad decisions. If you can't do that, improvement gets really really tough.

The stories about the players not respecting him.... I dunno. I've always looked at those stories with a wary eye. I think FK should improve his style, but ultimately it comes down to winning. Nothing cures the ills of big egos more than winning. Put another way, if FK was a hard-butt, but we were still losing, do you think these ego problems go away? I don't. We're losing because our offense sucks and our defense hasn't been anywhere near as dominant as we (or I) expected. Very little of that can be pinned on Freddie's coaching style/personality. It has much more to do with X's and O's.

I'm not excusing Freddie's coaching and the effect it has on the locker and the results on the field. I'm just saying that I don't think it rises to the level of hitting the eject button. I think the other parts that I highlighted might.
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#1705764 - 12/12/19 11:25 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: devicedawg]
PrplPplEater Offline

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Posts: 23586
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If knee-jerk Haslam is in favor, but Dorsey isn't, that tells you all you need to know.

That said, I hope Haslam wins out and we fire our coach EVERY year. Because, that's bound to work and get us a Super Bowl eventually, right?
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... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.


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#1705765 - 12/12/19 11:27 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: oobernoober]
PitDAWG Offline

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Posts: 42620
Loc: Smyrna, TN.
I agree with you about the wary eye.

At some point people have to begin to understand those writing these stories and the people they talk to have an agenda and what you are reading reflects it.
_________________________
Sashi Brown was so bad at his job in Cleveland, no other NFL team would even offer him a job. He has been relegated to being in charge of "the culture" of an NBA team. Oh how the mighty have fallen.

#gmstrong

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#1705768 - 12/12/19 11:33 AM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: PitDAWG]
oobernoober Offline

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I don't think agenda is even the biggest part (depending on the writer). It's just more of the big egos and attitudes responding to losing.
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#1705885 - 12/12/19 11:21 PM Re: Carolina Panthers fire Ron Rivera [Re: BustkeviousMingo]
jaybird Offline

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I want him to get another years... especially if we're win two it of the last three to achieve our best record in 12 years
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