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I'm not saying this is the case, just been thinking about it....In 2004, we had Jeff Garcia and Kelly and we're picking 7th. We had a chance to draft a young QB in Ben Roethlisberger but either we thought we were good at QB or didn't think very highly of him....
Fast forward to 2011, we have a promising young QB but one who hasn't proved anything. Are we sure Colt is better or on par with Cam Newton, Mallard, Locker, and Gabbert?
NFL Is a QB league, so if McCoy is going to be average to above-average and Heckert/Holmgren think one of the other QBs is going to be great, then I'm drafting the great QB
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Just my personal thoughts, Holmgren has never drafted a QB early. I want to say only one time he did in the fourth, and the rest are acquired later. Kolb was taken in Philly by Heckert, so I wouldn't be surprised to see us take someone if they fell to us in the second or third (if Locker or Mallet actually fell out of the first altogether).
I doubt any of the "big names" will fall that far, and I also don't think we would go after one early just because Holmgren had said recently he doesn't want to have a QB controversy and the Shurmurnator more or less annointed Colt as the guy.
It could all be smoke screens I guess, but I just don't anticipate a QB before the 3rd day.
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Colt fits this O and as much as i like 3 of the big 4, I think you have to allow Colt a chance to run this offense. The young man was born to run Shurmur's offense.
Now if Colt doesn't live up to his hype next year. Trade next years entire draft for Luck.
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Who would you define living up the hype? W-L? Yds/TDs/INT? If Luck is that good, no one will trade the #1 overall pick no matter what you offer...
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Ben would have died with the 2004 Browns. He had a better supporting cast in P-burg than we could offer.
Thomas - The Tank Engine
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Could tell you more after seeing the offense to be and his targets. I think he is and some who know feel he is. I will wait and see. But if our offense is somewhere other than up the gut into overloaded boxes, I think he has a chance. Can't base his ability on last year reliably.
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Quote:
Ben would have died with the 2004 Browns. He had a better supporting cast in P-burg than we could offer.
100% agree. The same could be said for Daunte Culpepper and Donovan McNabb. I don't know how successful Couch would have been with a better supporting cast, but he would have been much better than with the Browns.
The Browns have too many holes to not go all in with McCoy at this point.
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Cleveland needs playmakers... forget the QB spot for a few seasons, and BUILD a CORE....
No new QB will succeed without the proper pieces being put around him..
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We won't need stats to know about Colt. Can he maintain steady control of this offense? If he can do that, he will be the man for the job.
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Quote:
Cleveland needs playmakers... forget the QB spot for a few seasons, and BUILD a CORE....
No new QB will succeed without the proper pieces being put around him..
Thank you. If by playmakers you include linemen.
No more graveyard of quarterbacks.
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lineman included!! the RT needs to be addressed.. there is no point in not doing so b/c Pashos isn't going to do the job IMO. He's decent, but we need someone who can man that spot like Joe Thomas has manned the LT spot.
I wouldn't be mad if the Browns snagged one in the 2nd round, but would prefer the 3rd.
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I see where you are going, but in light of recent comments from the Browns Brass coupled with Colt doing decent given the supporting cast, I think it's a waste of time to even think of a QB in the first round.
Colt is at least decent,, maybe he turns out to be a place holder for a few years.. maybe he'll be an All Pro,, But he does deserve that chance and we do have lots of holes to fill beyond QB..
JMO however...
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My only point is we always have a lot of holes to fill, but getting a legit HOF type QB fills even more holes. Again, not saying any of these QBs are, but if they think, I'd rather pull the trigger then HOPE for another average sized, average arm QB to work out.
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Quote:
Quote:
Ben would have died with the 2004 Browns. He had a better supporting cast in P-burg than we could offer.
100% agree. The same could be said for Daunte Culpepper and Donovan McNabb. I don't know how successful Couch would have been with a better supporting cast, but he would have been much better than with the Browns.
The Browns have too many holes to not go all in with McCoy at this point.
Couch was never quite as horrible as some made him out to be ....... however, he also never had the upside that some other people saw.
Couch was a very marginal QB. He was never a playmaker. He never became a playmaker. He was a guy who might have been good enough to have a Trent Dilfer type career, if everything broke right for him. He was never going to be a Ben Roethlisberger though.
Look at the Browns teams be played on. He never got better as time went along. He never improved on his weaknesses. He was ....... "almost OK", for the most part. His play was "almost there" .... but never quite all the way there. He never did anything really well. Couch had some talent, but he never had the physical talent or mental makeup of a Ben Roethlisberger. Ben Roethlisberger would never have been in a "competition" with Kelly Holcomb. Roethlisberger has far, far more leadership that either, and that was Holcomb's big advantage over Couch.
If we had a 5th year Roethlisberger on the Butch Davis playoff team, things might have been different that year. A 5th year Couch, or an any year Kelly Holcomb never had enough pluses to compensate for their negatives.
I say this as a guy who thought that Couch deserved more time at the time as well. However, time and experience has changed my opinions somewhat.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
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Quote:
If we had a 5th year Roethlisberger on the Butch Davis playoff team, things might have been different that year. A 5th year Couch, or an any year Kelly Holcomb never had enough pluses to compensate for their negatives.
A 5th year Roethlisberger could not have overcome the gross coaching errors of the Browns HC, Butch Davis, during the playoff game with the Steelers.
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Quote:
lineman included!! the RT needs to be addressed.. there is no point in not doing so b/c Pashos isn't going to do the job IMO. He's decent, but we need someone who can man that spot like Joe Thomas has manned the LT spot.
I wouldn't be mad if the Browns snagged one in the 2nd round, but would prefer the 3rd.
as much a I would like to draft a stud RT there is a conundrum.
We do not have enough DL.
Pashos, Womack and a player to be named later may need to hold down the fort for a season or two.
Thinking one step ahead in the discussion........
free agent signings, if they happen at all, will likely be after the draft. The draft will be used by every team to fill needs unless the CBA gets done soon.
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As far as free agent signings are concerned ... I feel that this free agent class will not only be a great one, it could put us ahead of the usual game. If teams draft for need and we go BPA, then we may still have some holes. That being said, a solid (not pro bowler or hof-er but solid starter) would rather come to a place like us and be able to start then go to a team that just drafted a guy in the same position.... or am I flawed in thinking this way?
I think that it could be an equalizer as if we have needs after the draft it will be like recruiting is in college and we can "promise" them that they will play and start as compared to the other teams where they are coming off of the bench.
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I wouldn't say flawed...maybe look at it this way. If you're a good player and care about winning, you probably think you can beat out a 2-7 round pick. Probably don't even think about it. From the signing team's perspective, it provides more depth and a tutor...
Now, if a player isn't about winning and only about the $, do you want him?
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I still believe in drafting for talent over need and using FA to fill needs with proven talent, but we do not have that luxury. Plus the draft could have an adverse effect on some potential FA who might be of the same position you picked high in the draft.
It's all uncharted territory *sigh*
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The only QB's that would make me change my mind would be Bradford, and Luck. But they are not in this years draft. So I think it is prudent to give McCoy a year to develop.
I would not mind a QB anything 4 or beyond. There are too many needs.
I would not mind seeing Colin K. Pounder or Dalton in a Browns uniform, and I have not seen Jarrett Brown, but thought that he threw the ball well at last years combine.
There will be no playoffs. Can’t play with who we have out there and compounding it with garbage playcalling and worse execution. We don’t have good skill players on offense period. Browns 20 - Bears 17.
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Quote:
Now, if a player isn't about winning and only about the $, do you want him?
It's a job. If he isn't going to cause trouble in the locker room and it's only a temporary fix (what most guys are in the 27-29 range)... bring them in as solid contributors for a year and then draft their replacement. I dont care how good of a draft we have, we will still have holes BEFORE injuries.
IF we were sold on a guy to play well for 2 maybe 3 years on the dline and another (possibly) in the secondary or safety ... depending on our draft of course ... then yes I would want one or two.
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I believe that we truthfully could draft for BPA. While we may not be set in certain areas ... I would much rather build for the long term and have to pick over the undrafted free agents and future cuts for depth than I would drafting a guy we should be able to get 10 to 15 picks later just so we can "fill a need." Quote:
Plus the draft could have an adverse effect on some potential FA who might be of the same position you picked high in the draft.
Exactly why I think we dont worry about "needs." If we have a hole afterwards, then any free agent would view us as a destination to play. If we have a huge hole at d-tackle for example but have the backers, secondary, and passrush ... dont you think some monster would love to step into a solid unit? Especially if *hypothetically* we added a pass rusher like bowers in the first and then came back and picked up someone like clayborn or heyward (should be late first rounders but you know one could fall to us) on the other side ... I bet a solid D-Tackle would like to step into that line opposite of Rubin and knowing we had our secondary with potentially having (just throwing out a name) atogwe to fill the safety role? Maybe we don't look so bad all of a sudden... and it not only gives us time to potentially develop another 5th or 6th round tackle like we did with Rubin ... we could always sign the bpa in the next draft if he was a solid d-tackle and have a SURPLUS of talen for a year or two ...
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While we may not be set in certain areas ... I would much rather build for the long term and have to pick over the undrafted free agents and future cuts for depth
Just a reminder here.........with no CBA there are no signings of undrafted Free Agents. This will potentially be a free-for-all when the agreement is reached and I would surmise that teams will have to be wary of even talking to these kids????
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No doubt.
I am still hopeful something gets done soon, but am not that concerned it happens by Thursday.
If it lingers to the draft, then things really change and the real problems begin.
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Quote:
Quote:
Ben would have died with the 2004 Browns. He had a better supporting cast in P-burg than we could offer.
100% agree. The same could be said for Daunte Culpepper and Donovan McNabb. I don't know how successful Couch would have been with a better supporting cast, but he would have been much better than with the Browns.
The Browns have too many holes to not go all in with McCoy at this point.
Couch could never read defenses and invited the blitz. With a new salary cap we take rothlisberger. Why do i say that. teams that thow many millions at prospects like Couch and play them year after year HOPING they pan out waste many seasons. I think the browns suffered Couch fatigue and did not take ben.
I do not know McCoy has the skills to be anything above pretty good. If the front office believes another prospect as great then pull the trigger. I just think all the "top" prospects" this year each have their problems and not worth the high selection...yet with a QB you got to have a feel what can make a guy special.
years ago here in Atlanta former GM and owners son (Taylor smith) was on a call radio sports show. The Falcons had just traded Brett Farve to the Packers and kept believing their Okay QB,( heck i even forget his name in 1992) was a top QB. I said you let the wrong QB get out of town. There is no quit in that Mississippi kid farve yet when the other guy Chris miller was his name gets hit I see some quit in him.
There is something in the attitude of the Arkansas QB I might take in rd2, some intangible. Yet I like McCoy and see no guy in this draft I like more than him. newton has freaky physical skills yet w how bad he whiffed at the combine hitting receivers in stride echos the off the cuff backyard football he played at Auburn.
In fact, If you remember Couch, he was at his best the first two years when him and Kevin Johnson played pitch and catch. Once Davis forced him to play in a more controlled read and react Couch plummeted as he was unable to make the precision throws and read defenses.
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Quote:
I'm not saying this is the case, just been thinking about it....In 2004, we had Jeff Garcia and Kelly and we're picking 7th. We had a chance to draft a young QB in Ben Roethlisberger but either we thought we were good at QB or didn't think very highly of him....
Fast forward to 2011, we have a promising young QB but one who hasn't proved anything. Are we sure Colt is better or on par with Cam Newton, Mallard, Locker, and Gabbert?
NFL Is a QB league, so if McCoy is going to be average to above-average and Heckert/Holmgren think one of the other QBs is going to be great, then I'm drafting the great QB
I like the concept of this thread but how do you stop at just the QB position.
If you take a look at the team as a whole the similarities are scary. Following the 2004 season they changed to a 3-4. The issue then was lack of linebackers(Kevin Bentley, Brant Boyer, Andra Davis, Mason Unck, Ben Taylor Chaun Thompson) were 4-3 LBs. Kenard Lang dropped weight to try and make the transition to OLB in a 3-4. They Signed Jason Fisk from San Diego to play Nose tackle, a under 300 pounder for NT, really. The team had no true #1 WR so they go and draft B-Easy.
They Continue to show that change only results in loss of talent. Not to say Andre Davis, Andra Davis, Kevin Bentley, Anthony Henry, Chris Crocker, Leigh Bodden, Sean Jones and Jeff Faine were anything to be happy about. But they were depth and this team just dropped them or traded them because they didn't fit the scheme. This team needs to come to the understanding that they have to find talent before replacing talent.
The 2004 Browns are very much like the 2010 browns. If you look at the 2005 Browns and the drastic holes and lack of players then you will see how far the 2011 Browns will have to go as whole. This team has no depth of players at the 4-6 year mark in their career on its roster, and until they get that age of talent it will never succeed due to change.
The 2011 year is a wash no matter what talent they add. They need to go out and draft on one side of the ball only. And it really doesn't matter which side!
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Agree, but I still QB is different as it makes or breaks your team 90% of the time. I'm all for picking BPA, the way Pittsburgh and New England usually do not for need. The only exceptions being LT and QB and we know we have the LT....TBD on Colt.
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Browns: 2011 vs 2004
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