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Quote:
McCoy vs the AFC North this year had less than a 50% comp.
the fact of the matter is,if you can't run the ball,you become one dimensional.
its all about balance in the AFC North.
I asked the question and no one answered it..who around Colt McCoy had a productive and good year?
more often than not,McCoy was playing catch up in the 4th quarter.
he lacked the weapons on offense to put the ball consistantly in the end zone.
other than Joe Thomas..his o-line was garbage.
Peyton Hillis missed more than half the year...
when your offense that is striving for balance and your best RB is on IR along with your best pulling guard..its not gonna work out.
Where do you wanna start, because that is completly wrong on all counts. Well except for the first 2 lines. Hey! McCoy is still 0 fer for wins vs his division so, at least we have that to look forward to when Sept 2012 arrives. Something to build on ?
Who around Colt Mccoy had a productive and good year. K , easy.
Sure 1st, let me put that What I SAW was Colt Peaked, or rather, his best play was Pre-season, through games 1, 2, and 3, or the year 2011. After that he kind of ... something went wrong, throw in a couple of good performances by Colt, parts of games if not whole games througout the games later than that.
Who. Phil TAylor. 1, PT is going to be a beast. and don't gimme that 1 offsides that cost the chance late in the 4th, because if you don't see his greatness your not watching.
The linebackers, Wow, best lb's in a while. The Pass Defense. The pass defense playde Playoff Calliber, best pass defense on the Browns in 20 years , with the only close ? being the 7-9 record of Butch's first year 2001, where the pass defense was actually better than the 02 playoff year. But Hey that's subjective from what I watched. BUT, no question, linebackers, Phil Taylor, and The top 8 dbs played great football.
Do I really have to say, that Atyba Rubin, Brought it like he always has, and looked even More consistent for whole games.
Ok Who around Colt Mccoy had a good and productive year. ( do you understand sarcasm, because it should be mentioned last but it just came to mind that the Browns had one of the WORST kicking performances by any kicker in a long time, and Colt couldn't count on him to help him out in the least, to at least Try to keep the team in the game score wise. ) NOT! of course he couldn't ask for a better kicker.
Who around Colt McCoy had a productive and decent year? (sarcasm again)>
If the D line, could get 1! I mean ONE goal line stand or even to stop the opponent on 4th and short, then Colt might stand a chance. ... geesh. The D-line was like 80% plus in stopping teams on their goal line stands, and 4th and shorts.
( That's what I saw, did I miss something.)
More often than not Colt was playing from behind in the 4th quarter?
Yaaa, that's the whole point, he's supposed to keep that from happening, he's the orchestrator of the offense, he's suppose to get the job done, hes supposed to answer score for score, tat for tat, it's called killer insticnt, it's a boxer who gets Knock outs and finishes off his opponent. Do I really need evidence for that? watch 30 years of nfl history, 40 years, shoot even Jonny Unitas, to Joe Theisman, to Jim Kelly, to Jon Elway, to Tim Tebow, to whatever.
More often than not McCoy was playing catchup in the 4th quarter? His Fault, not an argument in his favor.
Do I really have to mention, the early to mid years of the Manning Colts, when they had no Defense, to the Saints 3-5 years ago who had no defense.
The Quarterback can do more than anyone else, More than anyone else on the entire 53 man roster to win or lose a game, and He has to. Has to! He is responsible.
K. Who around Colt McCoy had a productive and good year. ( Up till now I only mentioned defense) because you also said
He lacked the weapons on offense to put the ball consistently in the end zone.
Back to McCoy Playing best in pre-season and up to game 3.
Ben Watson and Evan Moore, they had 1 touchdown each in the 1st game of the year. Watson was there for McCoy All year long, for 2 years actually, ... whenever McCoy could find him or stop dumping off, Watson was always there. Watson, a sure thing easilly could have had a productive and good year, but not everyone will recognize that.
Evan Moore, he wasn't on the field all the time, but he was SOME times and he wasn't out on pass routes as often, but he had, could have had a productive and good year, if they could find him.
Alex Smith. Who had a prductive and good year? Alex Smith ( For the 3rd tight end?, for the 3rd tight end, had a GREAT , Portion, Part, of the year.
Greg Little, for the rookie year, didn't have a bad year, had a productive and good year. Not his fault He can't get down field targets, right. Hey, throw to him in the flat 1 yard behind the line of scrimmage and ask him to beat 4 defenders, on a naked ( what is that its not a bootleg) its a SUICIDE mission. and he beat 4 defenders for a 4, or 5 yard gain. Sure catching passes right at the chain marker for a first down on the very last chance when nobody can go deep because if they do the qb will float it for an int... and he makes the catch and gets pummeled. ( Ya remember that, cause that goes for ... MoMass, Little, Ogbonnaya, HIllis, Cribbs, Norwood, Moore, Watson, anybody, everybody, Marecic, everybody is asked to catch the ball right at the line of 1st down chains in traffic waiting to get pummelled.
And They DO! DID! because the boneheaded offense, and Qb decisions demanded it.
Cribbs. Josh Cribbs had his most productive season as WR yet. Most available to the Qb as he has been in any of his seasons, ( so you can't say well Josh used to be there but let McCoy down in 2011. ) Not everyone wil recognize that.
Hardesty. Oh who am I kidding Hardesty didn't have an all star year, but he did have production, and what I'm saying is His 3 games oppisite Hillis' 4 games oppisite Og"s 2 and then 1 games, means the RB's had production.
Good Quarterbacks can ( obselete ) off of that production, good QB's can take advantage of even what Hardesty Provided and make the offense better, more productive, from that, and We can recognize that that did not happen.
Not everyone will be able to recognize that last point either.
MoMass? Who around Colt McCoy had a good and Productive year? Well I don't remember the NEGATIVE plays involving MoMass, so why, did his production fall from 2 years before and 1 year before 2011? He wasn't targeted? I don't remember him even getting the chances he had in the past.
Little? Did Greg Little take all of MoMass's catches ?
If that were the case it would mean McCoy is NOT ABLE to run an offense that can use 3 receivers. Hey even the HC came out in the post game interview I think of GAme 1, or game 2 and said ... to the effect of. .... there are new plays designed to get Little the ball.
So THAT! would point to the QB can't find 2 WR's on the same freaking play.
Or! If all of that is wrong, and Little didnt' take MoMass's catches away then Cribbs Did take MoMass's catches away. Which means the same thing, that McCoy can't find 2 receivers on the same play. Unless one of those is actually a dump off runningback.
" Other than Joe Thomas his O-line was Garbage. " I saw different.
The O-line plays as a whole, and sure there were some big problems, BIG, Tony Pashos had more than one bad game. He Lost a game on him, by always backing up right into Mccoys face and getting penalties when he didn't. The most effective Pashos looked from the small amount I saw was vs Balt, only because Balt stopped rushing in order to pull back and raise up to try to knock the ball down taking away passing lanes.
Artis Hicks played in for Pashos at times and the whole O-line looked more consistent at those points. The O-line as a whole was effective. There were some run blocking times when the back and the hole didn't meet up, but Good quarterbacks overcome that.
And it takes being a Good Quarterback that can overcome the Average to Effective, display of play that the Oline provided, it takes being that good of a Quarterback to be a Quarterback in the NFL.
From what I SEE, ( so MY opinion) the Shortcomings of Lavao and Pinkston are HIGHLY overstated on this board, along with the ICONIC STATUS of Eric Steinbech being overstated too. I'll admit, I don't understand all of the intricacies of an undersized (only 300) pulling guard, who can block like dynamite one play and get ran over in drop back pass pro, the next play, because he has quick feet, but small anchor, and is aging as far as NFL players go, and if he comes back from injury is going to be the 1st O lineman to overcome all that and be all pro at this stage of his career. ( So If HE had only been on the field in 2011, McCoy would have been a better QB,... really? seriously? I don't know. ) Eric Steinbech was unavailable so I'll give you that.
McCoy is 0-8 vs the Division. I only want to see him beat out Another VIABLE starting QB to keep his Starting QB spot. What's wrong with that? That is the NFL. Fans should expect as much.
I didn't even mention Sheard! 
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Jk reading through some of this stuff about how you can judge a QB in a bubble stuff Im not really sure if that is true. One reason is because of Jeff Garcia. When he was here he was in a new offense and looked like crap for the most part.
Looked it up he went 3-7 in 10 starts had a 57.1 comp % with a QB rating of 76.7
Everyone said he was washed up couldnt make the throws etc.
Went to another bad team in Detriot went 1-4 in 5 starts.
Then goes to a good Philly team and he goes 5-1 in 6 starts his rating shoots back up the 90's
Same in TB his record was more toward .500 but his ratings remained high.
So while in a WCO he flurished but once outside that style he floundered.
So I think the players and the offensive system and play calling have to be factored into any evaluation of the QB along what the QB is doing on the field and the QB cant just be evaluated in a bubble.
Also looking back at Garcia his first year he went 2-8 in 10 starts.
2nd year in the system he went 6-10
3rd year it "clicked" 12-4
Seems that almost all of us agree that the FO will go in a direction that will let us know what they think of McCoy and that is the most comforting thought for me this off season.
If you need 3 years to be a winner you got here 2 years to early. Get it done Browns.
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why are you applauding the mediorce supporting cast around McCoy?
You are mistaken on the o-line.
it was bad overall.
Shaun Lavaou was one of the most penalized OG in the NFL last year.
I seen d-lines constantly blow through the A and B gaps.
the pass protection was horrendeous.
Not to mention Browns RB's failure to properly pick up blitzes.
The bad play from the o-line I believe affected McCoy between the ears.
There were probally dozens of times McCoy threw the ball before he wanted to.
if you can't run the football....how McCoy supposed to offset that when his WR's football IQ's are like a box of rocks combined?
I seen too many times McCoy would pick up the blitz and his target failed to adjust his route.
back to running the football....Montario Hardesty had one single game where he averaged 4.0 YPC.
The Browns had one of the worst running games in the NFL.
you talk about being productive? 4 TDS from your running game is productive.
I guessing walking out to get your newspaper is productive.
don't sell me on the Browns secondary...."its playoff calibur"
teams ran the ball at on the Browns at will in 2011.
if its so playoff calibur how come it let Andy Dalton and Matt Hasselback pick them apart?
one guy was a rookie and the other at the end of his NFL starting career?
9 INTS as a unit..thats playoff calibur?
oh BTW..Evan Moore can't block..thats why he became a afterthought.
Massaqiou why has his production dropped?
cause he was never that good in the 1st place.
He doesn't run his routes at full speed.
rarely will he break off a route and come back for the ball.
for all his size..he never uses it for his advantage.
He lets the ball separate from his body too much when he gets jarred.
McCoy is throwing to a bunch of complimentry WR's that are void of football IQ and lack the ability to make defenders miss after the catch or the common football sense to find the soft spots vs zone coverage.
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An argument between Kendall Storm and THROW LONG...? I'm just going to stay over here... Out of the way... 
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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I'n curious ..... how many penalties did each of our offensive linemen have?
Do you have a site that breaks them down somewhere?
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Quote:
I'n curious ..... how many penalties did each of our offensive linemen have?
Do you have a site that breaks them down somewhere?
Wait... You're asking someone to actually back up a statement they made?
Come on now...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Shaun Lavaou was one of the most penalized OG in the NFL last year.
Yeah, I'd like some sort of proof on this one.......
I just googled it and got Flozell Adams (which doesn't surprise me)
http://www.chacha.com/question/who-is-the-most-penalized-offensive-lineman-in-the-nfl-2011
But it's some stupid Q&A site, so not sure. Although I know Adams led the league in years past
But yeah, bold statement. You gotta back that one up
Edit: I think Adams is an OT, which takes him out of the running. Still gotta back up a statement like that about Big Shawn
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 02/11/12 05:55 PM.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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An argument between Kendall Storm and THROW LONG...?
I'm just going to stay over here... Out of the way...
#GMSTRONG
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"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
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he also had(at least) two personal fouls after the whistle, so you can add 30 yards to that total.
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he also had(at least) two personal fouls after the whistle, so you can add 30 yards to that total.
Yeah, I was gonna say, I do remember personal fouls. But those stats aren't on there. So we don't know how many personal fouls the other guys received
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Lauvao was penalized 9 times last season. I know because I went through the play-by-play of every game after somebody here made the assertion that he was penalized "at least twice every game".
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Quote:
Lauvao was penalized 9 times last season. I know because I went through the play-by-play of every game after somebody here made the assertion that he was penalized "at least twice every game".
Alright, so we got 2 personal fouls, 4 false starts, and 3 holds. That's like 80 yards of penalties. And five penalties that are generally drive killers.
Definitely not what we're looking for, but definitely not two penalties a game. More like a penalty every other game.
Just looking at it compared to other guards in the NFL though, it's something he's gotta fix
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Fix it? How is he supposed to fix it?
You act like he's a young player, like he's only in his second year, or fist full year of starting in the NFL...
I say we cut him, and his 9 penalties a year, clearly our offense would flourish without him weighing us down...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Quote:
Lauvao was penalized 9 times last season. I know because I went through the play-by-play of every game after somebody here made the assertion that he was penalized "at least twice every game".
Alright, so we got 2 personal fouls, 4 false starts, and 3 holds. That's like 80 yards of penalties. And five penalties that are generally drive killers.
Definitely not what we're looking for, but definitely not two penalties a game. More like a penalty every other game.
Just looking at it compared to other guards in the NFL though, it's something he's gotta fix
Would you accept that from a rookie that you wish to groom?
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Damanshot
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Quote:
Fix it? How is he supposed to fix it?
You act like he's a young player, like he's only in his second year, or fist full year of starting in the NFL...
I say we cut him, and his 9 penalties a year, clearly our offense would flourish without him weighing us down...
Damon:Quote:
Would you accept that from a rookie that you wish to groom?
There's something I like about Lavauo, and I think he came here as a very raw player. I understand that penalties like that aren't acceptable, but athletically he's not that bad, and I do feel like we've had worse guards on this team talent wise. Purely blocking (when not getting penalties), I do think he's better than past Browns greats like Barry Stokes, Paul Zuk. He's a RG and so he's a mauler, like Kevin Garmon? and Cosey Coleman, and I think he has more talent/ability than them.
He needs to get the mental aspect of the game down, but I don't see why he can't do it. Especially with more experience.
I'm just not ready to give up on the guy. There's more players i'm interested in replacing like our stupid RT. In many ways, I've always felt like guards can be found and plugged in easily. It's the tackles that are so hard to replace. If we find someone to replace him, great. But Tony Pashos is the player on our O-Line that we really need to replace, and replace with a decent player
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Quote:
Quote:
I'n curious ..... how many penalties did each of our offensive linemen have?
Do you have a site that breaks them down somewhere?
Wait... You're asking someone to actually back up a statement they made?
Come on now...
Actually, I was really curious as to whether a site with the number of penalties by offensive linemen existed. (one that was actually reliable)
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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jc..
Here are some individual stats for Pashos, Lauvao, Mack, Pinkston and Thomas.
Pos...Year..Team..G..GS...Pen...Yds...FStr..Hld..Sacks....Yds..
RT..P..2011..Cle...12..12.....6.....35......4.....1....9.00......30.50..
RG..L..2011...Cle...16..16.....8.....60......4.....3...4.50.......32.50..
C...M..2011...Cle...16..16.....3.....30......0.....1...2.00........7.50..
LG..P..2011...Cle...16..16.....2....15......1......0...1.00........7.00..
LT..T..2011...Cle...16...16....7....40.......6.....1...3.50......25.50..
Kind of telling in that it's very obvious where the weakness in the OLine was this past season. Hopefully that issue will be addressed in the offseason. web page
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False Starts are obvious.
But when it comes to holds?
How do you know EVERY hold was that players "fault" ?
We had a revolving door at RT for a bit, What if one of Cousins or Hicks (i think that who they were) missed an assignment inside, and Lavauo just instictively grabbed on to try to save the QB?
Didn't the Bears or someone have like 11 Offensive Pentalies in one Quarter?
This seems like a somewhat non issue.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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jc...
Before someone tries to call me out on my number vs the number in the table mac just posted re: Lauvao's penalties, I counted a penalty that he was flagged for but was declined.
I also find it funny that Shawn Lauvao, a raw project lineman is getting blasted for his number of penalties, and earlier in the season I got blasted for calling Joe Thomas out for committing too many penalties, and he committed only two fewer than Lauvao.
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adam...no big deal about your numbers being one different than what I posted.
Actually, your explanation was exactly what I thought might be the problem...either with the folks that provided the stats I posted or perhaps with what you posted...if declined, the penalty is not counted against the individual who committed the penalty.
Keeping OLine stats has to be one of the toughest jobs of all stat categories...that is why it's hard to find individual Oline stats.
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Outside of penalties,oline stats are meaningless.
The only stats that matter are the coaches grade sheets.
Indecision may,or maynot,be my problem
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Quote:
Fix it? How is he supposed to fix it?
You act like he's a young player, like he's only in his second year, or fist full year of starting in the NFL...
I say we cut him, and his 9 penalties a year, clearly our offense would flourish without him weighing us down...
Ahh,, are we talking about Lauvio? Last season WAS his second year. he got better as the year went on. 9 penalties aren't the end of the world and certainly doesn't signal anything other than he's young.
by the way, while this is his second year, he didn't play much due to injury in his first year.
there is plenty of reason to allow time to let him grow.. JMO
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
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Last edited by OSGuy; 02/11/12 10:12 PM.
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Apparently I need to work on my sarcasm...
*AHEM*
Fix it? How is he supposed to fix it?
You act like he's a young player, like he's only in his second year, or fist full year of starting in the NFL... 
I say we cut him, and his 9 penalties a year, clearly our offense would flourish without him weighing us down... 
There, hows that...? 
LOL,, OK,, I get it now., sorry, man, did I misread you.. wow., Sorry man...
#GMSTRONG
“Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not to his own facts.”
Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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Outside of penalties,oline stats are meaningless.
The only stats that matter are the coaches grade sheets.
osu...to some who see no value in stats...they may seem meaningless.
More often, coaches are learning how use stats when evaluating their players or units of players. I look at the stats from Pashos and Lauvao and know the stats confirm what I saw on the field...they identify an area of weakness that needs to be addressed during the offseason.
While some may feel stats are useless, especially Oline stats...I can guarantee that the Browns opponents study our stats and use them to help identify weaknesses or areas to attack.
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why are you applauding the mediorce supporting cast around McCoy?
I must be wearing Brown and Orange Glasses. I'll admit I may be overrating the talent around McCoy if you'll admit you may be underrating the talent around McCoy.
On the point of " only 4 touchdowns from the runningbacks" well, it's the quarterbacks job.
" It's the quarterbacks job to lead the team to first downs that become touchdowns." (My quote, from 2001)
I'm not sure how I would define the runningbacks job but, I know they work with the quarterback more than they take direct snaps. So it's on the whole offense, Ya they all need to get better.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Quote:
Quote:
Apparently I need to work on my sarcasm...
*AHEM*
Fix it? How is he supposed to fix it?
You act like he's a young player, like he's only in his second year, or fist full year of starting in the NFL...
I say we cut him, and his 9 penalties a year, clearly our offense would flourish without him weighing us down...
There, hows that...?
LOL,, OK,, I get it now., sorry, man, did I misread you.. wow., Sorry man...
First time I read it as well I thought man dude's crazy - then I realized it had to be sarcasm... I do think that we need to sure up that side of the line though
<><
#gmstrong
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I think we need a sarcasm sign
Don't blame the clown for acting like a clown.
Ask yourself why you keep going to the circus.
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Legend
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i believe clevesteve has established sarcasm font
#gmstrong
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Quote:
i believe clevesteve has established sarcasm font
Are you being sarcastic?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Quote:
Quote:
i believe clevesteve has established sarcasm font
Are you being sarcastic?
why do you ask?
#gmstrong
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Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
i believe clevesteve has established sarcasm font
Are you being sarcastic?
why do you ask?
No reason...
Oops wrong button, that's not sarcasm that's something completely different...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Not to ping on you, but I would have to say that on this subject you couldn't be further from the truth. Gil Brandt was a highly successful general manager for the Landry led Cowboys.
Also if you listened to his shows on Sirius you would know that while Gil is very modest and unassuming he is also almost always dead on right about what he says. I could not probably think of anyone in the media whose opinion that I would respect more. Time after time before the draft he would come up with some off the wall prediction that none of the Kipers, Mcshay's or even Mayock would even be thinking about. And guess what, he would be right. I am not going to get into the whole "is McCoy the one" but I will say that if Brandt says he then in my opinion that is a pretty darn good recommendation.
To be honest this whole thing reminds me of 2002-2003 debate over Couch v. Holcomb when Davis looded to Ron Wolfe for advice and Wolfe told him that Quarterback was not the issue. Well Davis said thanks for your time and goodbye. The next year we hired Crennel.
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Gil Brandt on McCoy and Draft...
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