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and the ONLY reason Tannehill could even be considered at 4 is due to a QB shortage, not talent (he isn't a #4 talent). Perhaps if we trade back we might take him, but at 4 there is no way (we likely go Claiborne/Richardson/Blackmon). The only "signs' pointing to us taking Tannehill at #4 are people speculating that because we bid on RGIII (and lost) and because Colt isn't likely a long term answer, that we will automatically take the next QB in line. That isn't how Heckert and Holmgren operate (thankfully).
Well if you consider the situation when they drafted Haden, Ward and Asante,
or the situation where they created a lack of abiltiy to field a defensive line, and they drafted Phil Taylor and Jabal Sheard. I'd say that Might Be how they operate.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Hasselbeck was available this past year, and looked damned good against us.
I'm beginning to think that Hasselback or Kolb will be on the market soon. One of these two guys could very well be picked up to come here.
If this is Hasselback, I'll be especially pleased. And that's how I see it happening.
Titans get Peyton Manning, release Matt Hasselback and he comes to the Browns.
I have no issue with this at all either.
Last edited by PeteyDangerous; 03/16/12 07:47 AM.
UCONN HUSKIES 2014 Champions of Basketball
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Ok, I misunderstood the argument then. I was talking about getting a really good QB and you are talking about getting somebody who may have been, hypothetically, marginally better than McCoy for a year or two.. my bad. But if the Vikes are so in love with Webb, why did they make a reach for Ponder the next year? When was Matt Flynn available? Quote:
What would Kolb have done here? Or even Skelton?
Well, they played for a team with a good TE, a legit #1 WR, a decent running back and both put up numbers that are only marginally better than McCoys in a division with 1 good defense.. I'm guessing they wouldn't have done all that well here either.
yebat' Putin
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Holmgren is supposed to be the QB guru. It's his job to get a good guy. He didn't. He failed. The Browns don't have a QB because of it. They know it. They've tried to get RG3. They will try to get someone else. If they can't, they'll again have failed. The difficulty of it becomes an excuse, not a reason.
The QB guru is about identifying a quality QB, not acquiring the pick. That's the job of a QM guru. 
#gmstrong
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Ok, I misunderstood the argument then. I was talking about getting a really good QB and you are talking about getting somebody who may have been, hypothetically, marginally better than McCoy for a year or two.. my bad.
Maybe you did, maybe you didn't. I interjected into the middle of a conversation, and to be honest man, I was slightly confused by what you'd written. I didn't get the correlation between a "small" investment in McCoy and the "two year investment" comment. So I went with what I thought was the flow.
Gotta love the loss of understanding when you can't look a person in the eye, hear his voice inflections, and read facial expressions. Lost in translation.
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But if the Vikes are so in love with Webb, why did they make a reach for Ponder the next year?
They did just place a 2nd round tender on Webb, which would indicate they believe he has a chance.
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Well, they played for a team with a good TE, a legit #1 WR, a decent running back and both put up numbers that are only marginally better than McCoys in a division with 1 good defense.. I'm guessing they wouldn't have done all that well here either.
Maybe...but maybe not. Maybe things would have clicked. We just don't know, which is why I said playing the game of "what if" becomes so dicey.
What if Steve Young never got traded to the Niners? What if the Rams didn't take a flier on some grocery bagger? Predicting the what-if's can't be done with certainty. We can only judge based on what's actually happened, and to that end, we can't give Holmgren a pass because it's not an easy job. He's got like $10 million reasons why he's expected to succeed.
OldColdDawg...that must mean there's trouble on the horizon! 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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Holmgren is supposed to be the QB guru. It's his job to get a good guy. He didn't. He failed. The Browns don't have a QB because of it. They know it. They've tried to get RG3. They will try to get someone else. If they can't, they'll again have failed. The difficulty of it becomes an excuse, not a reason.
The QB guru is about identifying a quality QB, not acquiring the pick. That's the job of a QM guru.
Correct you are...right up until the point when he walks into the room and tells the GM he's playing the trump card and orders him to take a QB.
Don't you also think it's funny that it's Holmgren, and not Heckert, who is so emphatically PO'ed and talking about the offer made?
I don't believe for one moment than Heckert made the decision of how much to offer for Griffin. And you know what, 'Dub? Deep down, I don't think you do either. 
***Gordon, I really didn't think you could be this stOOpid, but you exceeded my expectations. Wussy.
Manziel, see Josh Gordon. Dumbass.***
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No doubt it was Homie making the call, but seriously man, Heck wasn't talking because he can't. If a Orangutan who can supposedly finger sign is in the room, Heck is going to defer to the better communicator.
Last edited by Ballpeen; 03/16/12 06:54 PM.
If everybody had like minds, we would never learn. GM Strong ![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/small-gator-chomp.gif)
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No doubt it was Homie making the call, but seriously man, Heck wasn't talking because he can't. If an Orangutan who can supposedly finger sign is in the room, Heck is going to defer to the better communicator.
That's so cold! Man, I missed something, where did he go so bad in an interview, maybe he was distracted, not really important anyway,
if he gets us a Qb and a Wr, things will be looking up, hopefully.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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It's not a matter of them doing well, they would.
Part of it is keeping them happy, and you can't pay LT money to your RT, and if the guy is a legit LT, he will want to be paid as one. No??
That's it....I want a Ox at RT.....but one quick enough to pass block in most cases..
Well said Ballpeen! Typically, you want a RT that can run block like a John Deere tractor; but today he has to have the athletic feet to pass protect too.
This is a time of year we talk ceilings about complete strangers showing up in mock draft consensuses everywhere. Kalil played OT at 295 pounds and there's varying reports he weighs anywhere between 295 and 308. I don't see an Orlando Pace here that could most likely excel on either side you put him on if need be. I see a kid that probably needs to play Left Tackle and face the best edge rushers an opponent has. Maybe I'm being unfair looking at the frame or maybe a draft guru will argue I don't have the first clue. Ok. I just wonder what makes Kalil the answer to all our prayers at RT up at #4 overall that other RTs can't offer us later in round 1 or even round 2?
I just bought Pro Football Weekly's 2012 Draft Guide. The good news is they seem to think Offensive Tackle is a strong position in this draft giving it a B+. They separate RT and LT and the first RT listed is Cal's Mitchell Schwartz at 6'5" and 320 pounds projected for round 2. BYU's Matt Reynolds and Auburn's Brandon Mosely are projected for rounds 3-4. They also have some LTs I think can play RT.
I can't wait to bring toughness and tenacity to a position that we've longed for.
David doesn't beat Goliath without an accurate slingshot...
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You Know if they could find any legitimate option to upgrade the Quarterback position that still allowed keeping the #4 pick, then I have got to think that one Glaring shining, Bright Flashing light, of hope would be if Blackmon was still on the board at #4.
If the Quarterback position wasn't in flux, then the obvious , the only obvious solution, so obvious its in Neon lights, Browns take Blackmon! he'd make all the other receivers on the team better.
Richardson isn't going to make anyone else better, I just believe that, he may get his yards, but he won't make players around him better.
I do have to wonder,
How often, does a draft take place where they go 4 picks in with no players from the defensive side of the ball being selected?
And How often are the Browns in position to take the 1st pass rusher in a college draft?
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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And How often are the Browns in position to take the 1st pass rusher in a college draft?
So you think we should take a player with the fourth pick who may not even be worth the 15th pick?
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Richardson isn't going to make anyone else better, I just believe that, he may get his yards, but he won't make players around him better.
While a RB may not make players around him better, a good running game that the defense has to respect and game plan for would definitely help open up the passing game which would, in turn, help the running game.
Part of the reason our offense looked better with Colt in his first year was because we actually had a running game with Hillis. Teams had to be aware of Hillis and plan for him. Then the next year when Hillis, (and our running game along with him), went down, (complicated by a new offensive scheme with no rehearsal), so did our offense.
The running game should be the easiest of the two to fix. I don't believe it takes a RB picked at #4 either. Actually, I believe that if Hardesty were were both 100% healthy and 100% convinced of it then we have a decent stable of RB's with he, Jackson and Obie. We could pick a RB in the mid rounds that just could become a diamond in the rough. Many have been mentioned on here.
I feel taking Richardson at #4 would indicate two things: 1) A safe pick and 2) A pick designed to please the fans after the uproar of letting Hillis walk.
I hope this FO never does anything roster-wise to intentionally please the fanbase. I would like the fanbase pleased, don't get me wrong. But I would like that because Heckert picked and/or signed players for the right reasons and they became successful. Not for the purpose of good PR.
#gmstrong
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All valid points, but besides Hardesty's injury history, I haven't seen anything out of him that shows he has any kind of good speed. I'm not saying he has to be a Chris Johnson burner, but he just seems plodding to me at times (in the 8 minutes of playing time that I've seen from him).
I am unfamiliar with this feeling of optimism
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I don't think it really would have anything to do with pleasing the fan base.
There are points for either.
The offense functions as a unit. It rarely can succeed and rely on only one facet (passing or running). Eventually the team you are playing will take away your strength, then its over.
Last year we couldn't pass or run consistently. You can say it was the qb, the recievers, the line, or the lack of running game.
Heck, you can even say it was no offseason, a new scheme, and inexperience across the board.
We suffered from inadequacy in all facets of our game.
We do need a true number one receiver. A guy that can get open by running good routes, and catch the ball. Between the inexperience, and injuries throughout the season, we were in bad shape.
Our running game suffered from injury, and inexperience too. Losing Hillis leaves a void. One could argue that even if he stayed there is a void, because our 1 and 2...and even our 3...have injury issues.
Our qb suffered from inexperience, and was affected by the problems with the running game and receivers. One can argue that he's limited throwing deep. Who knows.
The inexperience and injuries on the line didn't help any of the above.
I can sum up our offense from a "team" point of view. Someone...be it the qb, the line, the recievers, or the runningbacks, was either limited by inexperience or injury, and the result was failed plays.
We could use improvement across the board.
Looking at our pick, from an offensive pick perspective...
qb...luck or RGIII at 4.....neither will be there.
Blackmon...is this guy a true number 1? I've read arguments both ways on this board. If he is...then take him...if he's not, then thats a reach for a need.
Richardson....from what i've read this guy is the best rb to come out in a long time. While we need a receiver, we also need a runningback. In our offense there is alot of checking down. That means the ball in this guys hands in space. This will open up the intermediate passing game. If this guy is the bpa at 4 you pick him, because he is in essence a receiver too...especially in this offense.
With hillis walking i think its the pick. Unless claborne is graded lights out better at his position.
Any way you slice it, we have a choice between, the best receiver, runningback, or corner in the draft.
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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The Jaguars have Maurice Jones Drew, who is everyhing I'd hope to see out of Trent Richardson, and the 32nd ranked offense last year.
According to them, they want receivers and or a Quarterback to improve, alot of them want to fire their GM, Their roster looks Abysmal, I wouldn't trade it for the Browns roster for nothing. They have no talent.
The Browns have so much talent on this team, it's pathetic they aren't getting at least 7 wins each of the last 4 or 5 years.
The biggest problems are Coach, Quarterback, and becuase of the Quarterback and bad offense, the receivers. I read on here, how someone said the tv commentator said the Browns hadn't run a route downfield all day.
You can bring in Trent Richardson, or Adrian Peterson or Emmit Smith, or Barry Sanders, Whoever you want to put in this backfield. If the Browns don't improve in the verticle passing game, the Rb is going to be catching passes behind the line of scrimmage.
And Any good team in the NFL can stop that.
So what I"m saying is, Sure, RG3, might be a game changer for the Redskins, but in Cleveland he would be a Brady Quinn clone, because they'd ruin him.
Trent Richardson might go to the Bengals, or Vikings, or somewhere and be a really good back, but in Cleveland, he's not going to change the dynamics of this offense.
I hate to say it, but it seems like the opponent is out X'ing and O'ing the Browns week after week, and the Browns can't take advantage of the players they have.
Maybe adding Childress to the mix will help that.
Hillis had a good year, then a bad year, well Lawrence Vickers was around for the good year. Just saying.
They can pick Trent richardson it's just another 1st round pick not invested in the passing game again. We've seen that for years. As much as I want to believe in a good outcome for a Trent Richardson on the Browns, I have difficulty thinking he will be any more than Jamal Lewis was for the Browns in 2009. ( I think it was 09,)
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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Coaching is fine and we do have talent. #1 need is a QB, #2 RT, #3 RB, #4 FS, #5 OLB, #6 WR
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Coaching is fine and we do have talent. #1 need is a QB, #2 RT, #3 RB, #4 FS, #5 OLB, #6 WR
Mourg, I like your post and you bring good arguments to the debates here, but I can't believe that you really believe that Cribbs should be a starting WR, because at the end of the year, that's exactly what he was for us.
We haven't had a passing game since 2007 and even that was iffy at best.
We have been one of the easiest teams in the League to defend, because of our lack of a vertical threat in this a passing League. We might have other needs, such as you mentioned, but our receiving threat is almost null and void and we haven't been able to address that deficiency in FA either.
I think that with experience, that we can win games with Colt McCoy, given that we surround him with better talent and weapons then he has had to work with and yes we have no other option then to fill the RT position by either moving Pinkston over or via the Draft, but we already know that we will not go another season banking on Pashoes. Something has to happen there.
Do we need another RB? Yes I believe we should not put all of our eggs into what we currently have ... Do we need to spend a 1st round pick on one? No I don't think that any team does.
Do we need a #1WR and threat? Yes ... Can we fill that void after the 1st round? I have strong doubts that we can find more then the complimentary types that already fill our roster now.
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No talent is no talent.
What we need to do is draft the best player available. That's either going to be a receiver, running back, or corner. That's just from who the experts say will be available.
A receiver will surely help our offense. Personally i wanted a veteran receiver...someone who can step right in and not have a learning curve like a rook.
A running-back will help this offense too. We were screwed last year. Our 3rd stringer out right before the season started. A rookie at fullback. Then hillis gets hurt. Then hardesty.
When you have a guy off someones practice squad starting on a few days practice you have problems.
My only point was that if Blackmon doesn't grade out as an elite receiver, and Richardson grades out as an elite running back, then you take the bpa. You don't reach for the receiver.
We need a good running back too.
You seem to think that this offense is stifled because we can't throw deep. You might be right, but I would be more willing to bet that inexperience plays a bigger role than anything.
When this team starts to get manageable down and distance on 2nd and 3rd down consistently, then you will see the results that you want.
Long passes are low percentage throws. We couldn't even complete high percentage throws half the time. Take your pick, poor blocking, bad throws, or dropped passes.
When we are in a position to get the first down consistently with a run up the middle, or a pass into the flat, a quick slant, or an intermediate pass.....then you will see the playaction, or the double move that will get those guys open deep.
When Hillis came back towards the end of the season our offense looked better because we were in better situations.
In this offense you can throw it deep...and you succeed at doing it when the defense doesn't know what to defend....the run or the pass. Inside or outside. Short or intermediate. Helps when the line can block it too. We struggled on some 3 step drops last year...7 step drops would have been a joke.
Defending us consisted of confusing our rookie guards, or going around the RT. Play the run on the way to the qb. Linebackers flood the short to intermediate. Safeties clean up.
Take the bpa whoever it is, and for the love of God....let these kids learn the damn system. All of them....
Attitude is everything....FEAR THE ELF!!!
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QB #1 speaks for itself. Top priority until you have an elite or atleast an elite prospect.
#2 RT right now all we have is cousins so that makes it huge. Really huge.
# 3 RB right now hardesty would be our #1
#4 FS it is an empty hole back there. young and hagg ???
#5 OLB Fujita is to slow and Maiva can't tackle
#6 WR We need one but Cribbs improved down the stretch and Mo has actually had time to recover from his concussion as has Norwood. We atleast have something at the position. The other positions listed i consider bare.
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I'd rather they stick it out with Ogbonnaya for 2 more years, than stick it out with Colt McCoy for 2 more years. Why? well, they got Hillis outside of the draft in a trade. They can't get a Quarterback outside of the draft to save thier life. They got Reuben Droughns outside of the draft for a year and a half. they can't get a QB outside of the draft to save their life. Jamal lewis, same thing. The only RB they got IN the draft was, William Green, or Lee suggs and a few others of little consequence. ( Forgot, Jerome Harrisson) The only RB they took 1st round was William Green, and though I loved him as a Brown, most on here hated him anyway. I don't understand the lack of interest in ?" Matt Flynn" or " anyone else?" in this offseason of quarterback musical chairs. The only way it would make sense, is if the Browns, thought, Flynn was too tall, or too familiar with the WCO offense, and too much of a pocket passer. And those 3 things are precisely what they NEED to find, so, it doesnt make sense that the Browns weren't interested in any of these Qb's .  Is there really any excuse why the Browns can't throw the ball downfield? Do we really have to suffer through another year of dump offs? Can anyone really make an excuse for this team that does not get the ball downfield.? They have to get a real Quarterback in here, and if there is no other way to do it than to do it by REACHING in the draft, then they have to REACH, they just have to. bottom line. Well, they can continue to go 4-12 every year. It hasn't stopped them yet.
Can Deshaun Watson play better for the Browns, than Baker Mayfield would have? ... Now the Games count.
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#6 WR We need one but Cribbs improved down the stretch and Mo has actually had time to recover from his concussion as has Norwood. We atleast have something at the position. The other positions listed i consider bare.
When I say that WR is a big need I don't mean the whole group but as a group I don't think we have a #1 and that also effects the others in this group.
Moe has not showed me that he plays with fire and desire on every down and he seems to be out in left field on many plays unless he is the number one option. He is a liability in the running game too and you can't be successful in this league without your (both or all ) WR blocking down field. He has virtually no YAC ability what so ever. I just think that he is a better fit in say a Daboll offense, but not the WCO, but TJMHO.
I don't think that we can take a step forward on offense without a significant play maker from this position and quite frankly I can live with Colt McCoy for another year, without an option for an upgrade there.
RT has to be upgraded by default.
There are other options to RB, not excluding a trade.
LBers and FS can be found in the middle rounds and I would still like to bring in a veteran FA LBer (I don't believe we are finished here) Woodyard is one that I like, because I think that he can be a 3 down LBer.
If we Draft another CB (very likely), then perhaps we can move Brown to FS, killing two birds with one stone.
It comes down to options and BPA.
Justin Blackmon is rated as the #5 prospect by NFL Draftscout, Richardson the #6 and Claiborne #4, so I don't think that Blackmon is a reach at #4.
I know that others here think that, but it's just not true and if you believe in the philosophy of not drafting a RB in the top 10 picks, then it's logical to assume that Blackmon and or Claiborne should be the choice at #4. Given the current state of this Franchise. I think taking Claiborne over Blackmon would be setting this current FO up for a fall from grace and I believe it would be a gutsy (borderline arrogant) call to go defense with that selection.
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The only way it would make sense, is if the Browns, thought, Flynn was too tall, or too familiar with the WCO offense, and too much of a pocket passer.
Is this an attempt at some sort of quasi-reverse psychology...?
Maybe, like most, they weren't interested in signing a guy who hasn't really shown THAT much, and in the long run, may not be THAT much better than McCoy?
I know the thought of everyone being able to break out their recently put away #10 jerseys was nice... But isn't a viable reason...
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Flynn was a fast forward on McCoy, what McCoy is going to end up being some day if he fulfills his entire potential. I think we missed the boat on not signing him, but it's not as big as missing on...others.
you had a good run Hank.
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Flynn was a fast forward on McCoy, what McCoy is going to end up being some day if he fulfills his entire potential. I think we missed the boat on not signing him, but it's not as big as missing on...others.
So if we sit McCoy for 4 years, and then start him after we win the Super Bowl... He'll be good...?
And by YOUR argument, If Flynn is McCoy in the future... Why pay Flynn.. When we already have McCoy?
Am I the only one that pronounces hyperbole "Hyper-bowl" instead of "hy-per-bo-le"?
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Because there is no guarantee that McCoy ever fulfills his potential.
you had a good run Hank.
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The only RB they took 1st round was William Green, and though I loved him as a Brown, most on here hated him anyway.
What, exactly, was it that you loved about Green? Was it his lack of production, his incredible absence of dependability, his lack of brains, or his character issues off the field?
He was arrested for drunk driving and drug possession while driving around with only one shoe and one sock on. His fiancée stabbed him in the back. He got ejected from a game for fighting ...... before the game even started.
He also had exactly one decent year, rushing for 887 yards. He never broke 600 yards in any other year. In 568 carries he had only 9 TDs. He averaged only 3.7 yards/carry for his career. (Hillis, by comparison, has 20 TDs ruhing in only 512 carries)
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I don't understand the lack of interest in ?" Matt Flynn" or " anyone else?" in this offseason of quarterback musical chairs.
Because exchanging crap for crap just gives you a different pile of crap? Maybe McCoy improves a little in his 3rd year. Maybe not. Flynn wasn't highly though of when he came out of college, and now, after 4 years and a couple of games, people want to make him out to be some All Pro, sure fire hit at QB. He wasn't a good QB when he was drafted. he's done nothing since being drafted. Now maybe he's developed via osmosis ..... but I kinda doubt it.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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Forums The Archives 2013 NFL Season NFL Draft (2013) Pick #4
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