Offensive Line Ranked #5 by ProfootballFocus.

Ooops got side tracked there. OL - still an OL NUT.

3 of our best draft picks...Joe Thomas, Kevin Mack n Schwartz...here for a long time. BTW the first pick of two regimes. Savage n Mangini/Kokinos - for a nano second I was thinking maybe Banner/Lombardi as a Safe pick that stays for years. But Warmack showed that he is no top 10 pick...not saying he doesn't deserve being in the late round. But for an OG to get taken in the top 10 he has to be a FREAK. I know 40 ain't the barometer for OL but 5.55 is not speed for a Once in a decade type of OG. He'll be dropping from the Draftniks boards I'm sure.

Lava...not a pro-bowler but he is a lot better than most dawgs give credit for. My point is please upgrade on him if the opportunity is there - but it will not be as easy a task to do as most think. He is far from being a weak link.

Now LG - Pinkston n Greco = they are the weak link of our OL...I see them both as bandaids n best served as versatile Backups. So the LG position can get upgraded pretty easily.

Its not a position to overspend in FA n I don't see any PRO BOWLER types in FA.

One kid I really like that I would "HOPE" would be there when we pick in the 3rd round.
Long of Oregon (Howie's son) - I see him as a "PERFECT" LG for us. He reminds me of Eric Steinbach except that he is a NATURAL with 300lbs on him unlike ES. not sure who else a lot of dawgs like the Fl St. kid - late round I liked Thompson from Indiana...not sure if he was at the Combine...don't remember seeing him there at all. RG Lave is not that bad n improving all the time. Yes he does go all out so when Defenders leave him finally - he will fall down to the ground a lot.

We got 3 code breakers at the Prime OL positions. Now we got to continue to develop or upgrade on the two OGs. But continuity will make LG serviceable n RG better.

JMHO

jc...

While it's nice to hear that Profootball Focus appreciates the effort of the Browns 2012 offensive line, ranking them as the 5th best Oline in the NFL is a bit "nuts".

Below are the 2012 offensive ranking in total yds & yds per game...passing yds & passing yds per game...rushing yds & rushing yds per game...points & points per game.

.....................tyds...yds/g...pyds..pyd/g...r/yd...ryd/g...pts....pt/g....
ranking..........#25.....#25.....#19.....#19....#24...#24.....#24...#24..
25 Clev.........5028....314.3...3435....214.7..1593...99.6...302...18.9..

These are not the kind of numbers a #5 ranked offensive line produces.

Granted, the Browns skilled position players were also young and inexperienced, lending to these offensive numbers, but to claim the Browns offensive line was the 5th best in the NFL last season is a stretch by any standard

The Browns 2012 offensive line was one of the youngest (in NFL experience) in the NFL averaging 2.2 yrs of experience at the beginning of last season. The OG position is still somewhat of a question mark as Pinkston struggled at LG last season before suffering a season ending blood clot, replaced by John Greco in the 7th week of the season.

The young Oline did progressively get better last season as they gained experience. While Greco does appear to be an upgrade over Pinkston at LG the Browns L & RG positions appear to be a weak link in the Oline.

Getting back to the Oline ranking...in my opinion, the Browns Oline played at a slightly better than average level, with #16 being average.

This is an example of how stats got a bad name.

The Browns have Weeden, who held the ball longer than any qb in the league, other than Ben. But Ben moves around, buying time. Weeden sat there like a statue. The Browns did not have a guy like Manning who gets rid of the ball quickly, or a guy like RGIII, who can run around. We had a qb who made the OL look far worse than it was.

TRich danced behind the LOS. His lack of decisiveness was troubling. Hardesty hit the hole quicker, but he didn't play all that much. This is not Alabama and you aren't running behind an OL that completely dominates opponents. This is the NFL and you have to be decisive.

We did not beat too many teams deep. They didn't respect our passing game and stacked the LOS, especially early in the year. That will skew stats.

Our offense was predictable because we had to dummy it down for the slow-thinking Weeden. That hurts an OL.

Our version of the WCO hadn't really evolved like other WCO offenses. The Big Show thought his system was the end-all. It wasn't.

I think our OL was easily top 5. Again, New England is the only team that I saw that did a better job in pass blocking. Our run blocking was not as good, but nearly as bad as the numbers portray, due to the points I have listed above.

Actually, Weeden started holding the ball longer for some reason as the year progressed. He actually got the ball out quite quickly much of the time, and was a huge improvement over the guy who held the job the year before. That guy held the ball forever, only to chuck it down to a covered receiver 3 yards away.

I do think that there was some "coaching" involved .... forcing both QBs into being more and more "careful" with the ball. However, Weeden still created far, far, far more big plays in the passing game last year than we had in any other year since DA's 2007 season.

Last year we had 48 pass plays of 20+ yards, and 6 pass plays of 40+ yards. The previous year, McCoy had only 26 pass plays of 20+ yards, and 5 of 40+. Weeden only threw about 50 more passes in 2012, by comparison.

Now there were some improvements in talent on the field that helped Weeden. However, he did manage to see when players were open in that short to mid range, and get them the ball in position to make a play with it. My disappointment with him was in passing the ball down the field. He was not as big an improvement in throwing the ball down the field as I had hoped. I do wonder just how much of that was coaching though.

The more time that passes, the less impressed I am with the whole Holmgren regime ...... and looking at how the team's usage of Cribbs changed, as one example, after Homgren left, makes me wonder just how much he demanded that the offense be what he wanted it to be, period. The team's refusal to use the shotgun might also be in this same vein. Holmgren/Shurmur wanted a QB who operates under Center. Period. That's not Weeden. I do expect him to be much more comfortable in an offense that allows him to work from the shotgun more often. Recently Pluto did an analysis regarding use of the shotgun in the NFL last year, and Weeden was in shotgun the 2nd fewest percentage of snaps of any starting QB, behind only Matt Schaub of the Texans. That tells me that this staff refused to alter their offense one iota to fut the talent they have. Hopefully that changes this year.

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Just take it and eat it or I'll shove it to you for an entire year, just as annoyingly as you did and then disappeared from this board instead of eating your crow.

Speaks volumes on your character n insecurities as a poster...man just let it go.

As for Everett...yep In Feb. I was excited...I remember after the combine I dropped him from my possible draft picks n went on in another direction. But you an insecure poster will now in your own words use that as a format to discredit me???

Just like this year in Feb. I was excited about Warmack for LG (not many sure things in the top 5-10) but after the combine...he doesn't come close to justifying a ONE in Ten year talent at OG to get taken top 10. Telling you this so in 3/4 years from now you can claim that is who I WANTED in the 2013 draft. Don't worry - obviously you see me as some threat to post here. I'll leave after the Browns Chat Board is made...Thanks again for the NO WELCOME Sign here.

Why let one person decide where you will post?

Cripes, we all make mistakes on players.

You had me lauging with the "threat", good one

Must have missed the part with "good to have you back"

Anyway, I remember you trying to descredit everything I posted with "the one who wanted C.Barwin in the 1st, lol" kind of posts for a long, long annoying time...and now you can't take a couple of posts shoving Barwin's success to you? Cmon man

Insecure huh? I wasn't the one who ran away from eating crow

I'm actually pretty confident in my evaluations and welcome most of the gutsy posters back...it got so boring in here that I had to tease Toad out of his fence sitting and he's been exposed as a frog since

Don't run away this time

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Cripes, we all make mistakes on players.

I really didn't see this about a football debate on players. Just somebody who is saying they will shove it down my throat that I am basically a coward as if I left cause of the subject matter. I was wavering on boards cause my time was getting less n less n it was hard to post on two boards. Then I got suspended so never came back not from some issue of making a mistake on a player.

I'm getting too old...I hate confrontation. I only wish to talk FOOTBALL especially about my beloved Browns. Thats all n I get some crapola about stuff that was discusses 3-4 years ago??? Hey I'm here n would like to post. Heck for all I know there won't be a Brown's Chat anymore. I'm not here for a Ping contest. I'd like to stay...but if it means confrontation at every turn...I'll move on so that I don't bring the board down n I get sick. Thats all Ytown...I've always had respect for you n what you have done with Dawgtalkers...anybody who asks me I tell them its a good place to post. I am getting to be an old dawg who just don't want confrontation...I more than welcome discussion...but not looking for fights. I'll try to be a good poster here. Whether I stay here or not...Depends on the next 2,4 6weeks or so??? Thats all.

So...in lieu of that...any talk about the OL? I think as usual I wrote a freaking book

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any talk about the OL?

not much to talk about there. great that 3 different regimes have hit on their high draft picks for the OL (Thomas, Mack, Schwartz) and the 4th regime now gets to benefit from needing to find 1 OG (and let the other 3 battle for the remaining opening).

Vasquez is my favorite FA target because he played with Norv, is really good, but isn't getting the type of hype to think that he'll be a top paid OG. So, a 2nd tier pay but possibly 1st tier play. That's what I like.

I haven't done a thing with DawgTalkers ...... except post a whole lot. lol

As far as our OL, I think that we have a fine OL, and that the change in scheme will really have a positive impact on the overall OL unit, and the individual players.

To get back to football :P lol I thought the 2 big negatives in the run game were Richardson dancing and horrible fullback play. Alex Smith tried but man he was lost most of the time.

The biggest hole in the offense is at the fullback position. Chud and Norv want and need a powerful fullback in their scheme.

In our pass blocking, experience together will help tremendously. Going more gun, 5 and 7 step drops shouldnt slow us down to much. Weeden couldnt make a quick read to save his life anyway.

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This is an example of how stats got a bad name.

I think our OL was easily top 5. Again, New England is the only team that I saw that did a better job in pass blocking.

vers...don't like the stats?

Stats do tell us something about a football team if they are used in a constructive way. Some fans may not appreciate the value of stats or the picture they paint if those stats do not support their agenda.

Vers...your agenda is obvious !

If you expect Browns fans to believe our Oline was top 5 in the NFL and second only to the Patriots in their pass protection, you better bring something to the table to prove it, besides just your opinion.

I know what I saw and my interpretation of the performance our young offensive line turned in last year seems to be much closer to other sources, than your interpretation. I'm unable to find one source that rates the Browns Oline as top 5, at anything.

If you have something to back up your claims, by all means, share it with us.

Just for the record...I'm not trashing our Oline ! I'm trying to be realistic about the performance they turned in last season. I expect the Browns Oline to continue to make progress, becoming the backbone for a strong running game and passing game, for years to come.

Fans do need to cut the Oline some slack next season (especially early in the season) as they "once again" learn another new offensive scheme. Hopefully this will be the last offensive system and playbook the Browns offensive unit has to learn, for a long time.

Vers has a witness to back up his opinion. Me. :P This was a top 5 offensive line. Once Schwartz and Greco settled in this line was very good. Most of the breakdowns in the pass game was either the RB/FB missing the block or miscommunication with Schwartz and Lauvao that happened from time to time and should have been expected.

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Once Schwartz and Greco settled in this line was very good.

and don't underestimate JoeT's injury that seemed to be bothering him early.

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I haven't done a thing with DawgTalkers ...... except post a whole lot. lol

I know its PurplePeopleEaters (or more effectionately known as PP Eater...sorry couldn't resist) baby but associate you from the original board n here from day one. Also saw my first Browns Home game with you

Just some notes that I remembered in discussion.

Back to the OL...If Warmack came into the combine and ran like a 5.03 n looked more in shape. I thought he gave the new guys a tough decision. Take the SURE THING OL is one of the easiest n accurate evaluation for the draft. Or the plethora of raw/risk picks available. Its a Unit that probably is our best but do we take it to another LEVEL???

Long for OT...(Howie's son not Miami's FA) He has good feet but his in experience as an OLman is very low. If somebody takes him as an OT prospect...I like the kid but the development will not be seen over night. We are in the luxury of having both OTs locked up. He can start right away n upgrade our LG situation. Learn quick like Pinkston did mostly cause he is bracketed with Joe T n Mack!

Again if there in the 3rd I hope we jump on it. I'd think about 2nd but since we don't have one all I am thinking right now is Overall #6...then our 3rd round pick. Just was impressed with the kid n he reminded me of a Bigger ES.
JMHO

I think that if we had allowed Trent to set up deeper, as he was used to, then we would have looked better as far as run blocking goes.

I think that we had problems as the year went on, but that was because Trent slowed down because of injury, and because Weeden wore down .... and got "coached" to death.

I think that our OL, overall, is a top 10 unit.

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Back to the OL...If Warmack came into the combine and ran like a 5.03 n looked more in shape.

If he does better at his pro day will your opinion change?

We need playmakers ...... not another OL.

We already have invested heavily in our OL ..... more heavily than most teams have. We need weapons, and difference makers. We need game changers. We need players who force the opposition to game plan to try and stop them.

That's what this team is missing. We have the OL.

Shurmur I like the guy but he was horrible at working the run game. All those throws on 3rd and short takes away the dominate mentality that you want in your offensive line.

Now when you have injured ribs, it is hard to get low. That is probably a big reason for much of the dancing from Richardson, he just couldnt get low and squirt through the pile.

There were a few things that hurt the run game but run blocking by the OL, I really didnt have a big problem with. TE run blocking and FB blocking hurt a lot.

OL run blocking was a tough thing to evaluate. Our passing game was all short patterns even if we ran a Go, Post, Corner Post...rarely was it our Primary WR. This played right into our opponents Game plan against us. They had 8 in the box but also the two CBs pressing so they could come into the run D easily.

Teams had discipline on all the gaps. And most runs were Tackle to Tackle. Pinkston n Greco were terrible in the Power Pull to the right our design had them mostly trap blocking the Outside containment that would crash in once the run inside had commitment - Pinkston was very slow getting there n Greco simply was over powered or plain ole Missed the block. This was our standard power run to the right.

We mostly went left with miss direction or Cut back runs. I don't Lava did pull Power to the left but although he can most definitely improve was no where as inept as our LGs...why I insist that is where to improve. But mostly we were out numbered in the gaps. The power pull btw is a way to even up the numbers at the point of attack.

But 8 with CBs close by where outside containment could crash inside quicker. And then when we have a pass called we are doing a 3 yard crossing pattern or a Triangle set up 5...10...7 yards w/5 n 10 usually stacked. Simply put we never stretched the field with our passing game to relieve the congestion that was always the Defenses primary concern...Stop the Run!

Only the Bengals ran 7 in the box...they still were attentive to the run playing tight n stuff but they were the only team we faced that played regularly 7 in the box...and I thought we had nice flow in those games especially with Trent.

Speaking of Trent n the dance...well yes we had that congestion n it was more than normal NFL stuff. But also he had those broken ribs. I saw him a little less decisive than he was before the ribs.

I think if we get a good Vertical stretch...the running game n Run Blocking will be much easier to evaluate. Who wins their battles, who can get to the 2nd tier so on n so on.

A lot of analyst will look at the stats n say Good Pass blocking but have problems run blocking. Can we improve? Heck yeah. All indicative of the OL run blocking??? I think they were doomed from the get go.

FB could of helped. I think going spread n get teams into Nickel n expect a pass all the while we run Trent would have helped more. Two TE with Smelley. Don't get me wrong...Marecic got benched for most the season for a reason!

I just thought we had NO imagination for our running game as for play book. Not enough miss direction and just not enough play action in our passing game (on running downs) . Shurmur or Holmgren??? I thought it very very odd after Holmgren left Game #29 for Shurmur we had our first plays of Wildcat with Cribbs. Made me think...is this lousy O all on Shurmur or was it forced on him???

Still Stats could Lie in that regard. I thought our pass blocking was pretty real. I thought our run blocking can definitely improve with talent n play design...but was it as bad as the stats show? Teams just attacked every GAP n had all expecting the run on downs 1 n 2.

JMHO

There it is in a nutshell.
Lining up in an I without a decent FB is nothing more than an exercise in futility.
Marecic was flat out horrible and Smith was too damned slow and upright to the hole.

Note to Ballpeen;that's why you don't line up a guard at FB,it takes them forever to get to the line.

A good FB,a healthy TR and this team can slug it out with the best D's.

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more heavily than most teams have.

We do have two first rounders. True...gee just curious how many First rounders did the Ravens have? 49ers? most teams???

Playmakers??? I think we are set assuming Gordon n Little keep on progressing - at WR
Trent at RB you think we need more?

Pass rusher extraordinaire - no complaint from me!!!

Franchise QB still uncertain that is for sure.

OL is fine....best one we have ever had. But I believe it is possible to make this UNIT Awesome. The mention of Warmack was if he came out showing himself as ELITE which he did not.

New guys...Joe T, Mack, Schwartz excellent picks from our last 3 Personnel guys. Lots of Chances on more impact positions...heck throughout our First 2 rounds since 1999. New guys want to play it safe with their First ever pick...with all the Risk n Raw picks of this up front draft??? As mentioned thought seriously it could of been their first pick. We got a lot of weapons here...No reason not to go Awesome on the OL n get the most out of the talent. Of course got to be right place, right time kind of thing. I hope we never pass up on an Upgrade in a BPA area.

Draft picks...are economical even first rounders. Its the 2nd contract that become expensive. But that is with only guys who are studding out.

Again...me its Ansah or Jones. Was thinking about what the actual pickers would do.

We have 2 first rounders, a high 2nd round pick, and a pair of 3rd round picks on our OL. Right now, with Lauvao and Greco at the Guards, the lowest pick we have playing is Lauvao who was taken 92nd overall in 2010. Greco was a 3rd round pick of the Rams. (65th overall) Thomas and Mack were each 1st round picks, and Schwartz was just outside of the 1st round at 37th overall.

That is more than most teams have invested on their OL.

Many teams have UDFA at Guard. Some have UDFA RT. Several have UDFA at C. We have 3rd rounders or better across the board. (and a 5th rounder in Pinkston) That's a substantial investment. We need difference makers. We need people who can score. We need difference makers on defense. We need players who can stop the opposition from scoring.

Our OL is fine. It's time to invest in difference makers.

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We do have two first rounders. True...gee just curious how many First rounders did the Ravens have? 49ers? most teams???

Ravens
Bryant McKinnie 1st Rd (7th) 2002
Kelechi Osemele 2nd Rd (60th) 2012
Matt Birk 6th Rd (173rd) 1998
Marshal Yanda 3rd Rd (89th) 2007
Michael Oher 1st RD (23rd) 2009

Niners
Joe Staley 1st Rd (28th) 2007
Mike Iupati 1st Rd (17th) 2010
Jonathan Goodwin 5th Rd (154th) 2002
Alex Boone UDFA 2009
Anthony Davis 1st Rd (11th) 2010

NE has 2 1st, a 2nd and 2 udfa
Falcons 1 1st, 2 2nds, 7th and udfa

If we solidify our OG position we could have the top OL in the NFL, at least top 2-3 ... JMHO

j/c

Greco reaches agreement with Browns

BEREA, Ohio -- The Browns have reached a long-term agreement with offensive lineman John Greco, the team announced Tuesday afternoon.

BEREA, Ohio -- The Cleveland Browns on Tuesday agreed to terms on a five-year contract with offensive lineman John Greco, the team announced.

“One of our goals,” said CEO Joe Banner, “is whenever possible to develop and keep our own players. We’re glad in this case that it worked out, and was mutually beneficial.”

“John is a solid, all-around teammate, on and off the field,” said Head Coach Rob Chudzinski. “He was given an opportunity to play last year and really showed well. He’s respected in the locker room for his approach, consistency and team-first attitude.”

Greco, a 6-4, 315-pound veteran in his sixth NFL season out of Toledo, is now signed through the 2017 season. He has seen action in 55 career contests with 14 starts.

In 2012, he appeared in 14 games, including a career-high 10 starts, all at left guard. Last season, the Youngstown, Ohio, native was a part of an offensive line that helped pave the way for Trent Richardson, who rushed for a 950 yards, and protected for Brandon Weeden, who threw for 3,385 yards, both franchise records among rookies.

Originally selected by St. Louis in the third round (65th overall) of the 2008 draft, Greco was traded to Cleveland prior to the start of the 2011 season.

http://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/arti...90-098d479ed38f

this was a no brainer. get our best guard signed up.

Greco played really well last year, I hope he continues.

Now, let's figure out the best guy for that other OG slot.

Interested to see the figures on this deal. I don't expect monster numbers here. At minimum, this solidifies depth and tells us Greco is key to the line.

So I'll assume Greco is the starting LG, Lava Man at RG going into camp?

Lauvao should have the edge at camps opening, but we have to hope that Pinkston is fully healthy and ready to give him a run there too.

also, I am hoping this is a sign that we are also negotiating with Alex Mack.

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Lauvao should have the edge at camps opening, but we have to hope that Pinkston is fully healthy and ready to give him a run there too.

also, I am hoping this is a sign that we are also negotiating with Alex Mack.

I give lava a 50/50 chance of being on the team game 1. just got to hope pink is good enough.

In the last camps which was more getting down to business.

Pinkston was said to be only playing LG with the 2nd team. Greco only playing LG with the 1st team...and Lava only playing RG with the 1st team.

You guys just refuse to give Lava any respect...wanting wishing for Pinkston to win the job...lol

I'm good with Greco at LG n Lava at RG...looks very decent to me...an OL to grow old with.

JMHO - curious how it will be set up at Training camp as far as the depth chart.

Gotta luv the bitching about competition, it's been a long time sine these type of discussions have actually meant something. It is usually about hoping and praying that some FA or 5th rounder pans out and doesn't kill us

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I give lava a 50/50 chance of being on the team game 1.

Wrong again (or as always)

when they both played, I thought Pinkston was better, but Lauvao has had a year to get better while Pinkston has been hurt.

I don't really care who wins, I just want them to be good.

I did a lot of film study on Pinkston early in the season and what I saw scared me. At times, Pinkston had no clue what he was doing.

...one example that stuck out in my mind...pass play with no one over Pinkston..at the snap, Pinkston chooses to step to the outside, double teaming the DE who Joe Thomas is handling by himself with no problem..thus no need for help.
...as a result, Pinkston leaves a huge unprotected hole and gets burned by a delayed blitz and our QB gets creamed...

Mental mistakes such as this can change a team's season, if the result is a season ending injury for a QB or RB.

In defense of Pinkston...the man played 4 yrs of RT and LT at Pitt...never playing OG. Pinkston did a decent job filling in for Steinbach his rookie season but he is an OT learning to play OG...and the jury is still out on Pinkston as he lost his starting job to Greco and now is forced to compete with Lauvao for a starting job.

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... leaves a huge unprotected hole and gets burned by a delayed blitz and our QB gets creamed...

I don't remember that particular play, but I do remember a very similar instance last game of the season, a gaff by Ryan Millar filling in at LG. (This was initially brought up by Vers quite a while ago). On two successive plays, Millar helps Mack with pass block, and a delayed blitz gets McCoy hammered. Was this due to mental mistakes or our pass blocking scheme? I'm asking because I don't know...

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Was this due to mental mistakes or our pass blocking scheme? I'm asking because I don't know...

IMO, mental mistakes and lack of experience playing the position.

Miller hasn't had a lot of starting experience and defenses recognize when there is someone new playing a position on the OL...good DCs will bait a new OLineman to see if he knows what he is doing.

...it sounds like the DC realized the Browns had a fresh face playing OG and took advantage of him.

In the case you site, there is no way to know what the OLine call was by our center...could be that Miller missed his assignment because he didn't catch or understand Alex Mach's OL call.

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In the last camps which was more getting down to business.

Pinkston was said to be only playing LG with the 2nd team. Greco only playing LG with the 1st team...and Lava only playing RG with the 1st team.

You guys just refuse to give Lava any respect...wanting wishing for Pinkston to win the job...lol

I don't remember it that way. I do remember that being the case in one report, but there were other reports that said something quite different. It wasn't that long ago, tab.

And some of you guys act like Lava Man is a sibling. Always rushing to his defense. Why would it bother you if Greco and Pinky are the starters? Seriously.........why?

I could care less who starts. I want the best on the field. I have no personal interest in this. Oh, he's gotta start so I don't look stupid on a message board.

I do think that Greco will be our LG and Lava our RG. Pinky will be the back-up. But, I am not going to get upset if it doesn't play out that way. Sheesh.

Oh.........and 32---that was all on Miller. The scheme wasn't an issue or that type of thing would have been happening all year.

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and the jury is still out on Pinkston as he lost his starting job to Greco

Greco took a starting job yes, but Pinkston had beat him out in preseason and Greco only got to start after a Pinkston injury. once Greco got his shot, he sure made the most of it. you make it sound like Pinkston was benched.

so, that leaves Pinkston and Lauvao fighting for the 'other' job. as long as the OL keeps getting better, I'm not complaining when this happens. it's a good thing.

You're right about that. Pinky did win the starting job over Greco. He lost it due to his illness.

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when they both played, I thought Pinkston was better, but Lauvao has had a year to get better while Pinkston has been hurt.

I don't really care who wins, I just want them to be good.

+ 1 on everything ya said.

yep. as far as moving them around, I had read the same as Eo (final slots were as I posted). easily could have been just random too though. we'll find out soon enough though (where they play in preseason).

Maybe the Browns think Pinkston could give them better depth at RT since (I believe) he played OT at Pitt. If anything happened to JT, Schwartz would have to move to LT and, possibly, they think Pinkston would be a better option than Cousins or whomever else was available for RT duty. Greco gives us depth at C, besides playing LG, and Pinkston gives us depth at OG and ROT. Bases are covered.

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but there were other reports that said something quite different. It wasn't that long ago, tab.

Actually I know exactly what I'm talking about. The reports of playing in different positions was from the very first Mini Camp we had. The last MINI CAMP is what I'm talking about n there was NO ROUND ROBIN regarding the interior. The depth chart took more form as the Coaches got a look from the first camp n now was starting to get down to business. I remember exactly what happened...you are jumbling two reports in one time zone but the other report yes surfaced in POST FROM IGNORANT POSTERS claiming Pinkston at LG n Greco at RG. But their timing was off by several weeks. I know what I'm talking about...apologies accepted.

Don't worry I won't hold my breath.

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And some of you guys act like Lava Man is a sibling. Always rushing to his defense. Why would it bother you if Greco and Pinky are the starters? Seriously.........why?

Do I like him? Sure I do, cause he is a Brown and a Snot Bubble blocker. Why Insult me like that? That if I post that he is good it must be cause he is a sibling. Ya think possibly I know my OL - I rush to his defense cause quite frankly most posters don't really have a clue about the OL let alone the INTERIOR...you cannot judge Interior OL play from follow the ball mentality n think you know what is going on. You got to watch the same play over n over to disect it correctly.

On two occasions during the season I was reading a lot of LAVA SUCKS POSTS and I was like HUH?? I don't remember that. I went back and spent a lot of time disecting every play as it turned out those posters were found to be flat out JOKES in their observations as he actually did not suck but played a great game. So I defend him.

To Answer your question on why would it bother me if the OL is Pinkston n Greco at OG...cause not of some SIBLING BS Crapola you spew out there...Gosh forbid if somebody else actually knows football. Its because I see him as the BEST RG on this team...Point blank. As in my strong opinion on a subject that I'm sure I know more about than anyone on this board. I could be wrong but I do know it. Sorry for the confidence in that.

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I want the best on the field. I have no personal interest in this. Oh, he's gotta start so I don't look stupid on a message board.

Again why insult me in such a condescending way? Like I don't wish the best on the field that must be why I pimp Lava

Oh no thats not it - IT MUST BE SO I DON'T LOOK STUPID ON A MESSAGE BOARD...mr. lets talk football. Man you can be nice sometimes and then so insulting. What gauls me the most you prop yourself up as some Football KNOW MORE GUY and a stand up guy who defends posters from Bullies...then you discuss OL to me in this manner? Oh he's a sibling. Oh its about my ego not to look stupid, Oh I don't wish the best OL on the field.

smh

I don't know how Lombardi/Banner and the coaching staff feel, but Heckert noted when we drafted Pinkston that his arms were too short for OT and we drafted him to play OG.

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And some of you guys act like Lava Man is a sibling. Always rushing to his defense. Why would it bother you if Greco and Pinky are the starters? Seriously.........why?

I don't know Vers. There is a lot of love for Vickers. Many have this thing for the fullback position. The position involved in roughly 25% of the offense. Not to start a war I do agree you need best player available. Question becomes at what cost. You can say the same for offensive guard. It would be nice to play all super stars, but when does cost out weigh return in value?

I always thought having a solid triangle (LT,C,RT) is the key component building a powerful OL. Guards are used in running a specific offensive style. I believe the question becomes who best fits maulers, pass protection, or pulling guard in Turner/Chud's offense. Drafting Gilkey and picking up Faulk makes one think Turner is leaning toward a mauler, or maybe he is looking for one of each interchanging Greco, Pink, and Lava.

I get exactly what he's saying. There's a few posters around here who make it sound like people who don't want Lauvao starting need their head examined.

Personally, I'd go with Greco and Pinkston. I think it will be Greco and Lauvao. I don't really care which way it shakes out. I don't see some chasm of difference there that will make or break the line.

I never thought 'sibling' ... I just assumed one or two of the guys talking about Luavao like it's silly to question his starting role have probably met him a few times or something.

As for you...you seem to have very, very thin skin, and are offended quite easily. If that's the case, maybe you need to ratchet down your own condescension towards others. You seem to dish it out fairly often, but as soon as someone hands it back you, it becomes 'why would anyone insult little old me?'

If you can't stand the heat, as the old saying goes...

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If you can't stand the heat, as the old saying goes...

You're saying that he should "get out of the kitchen"? This board needs and should value posters like 'tab who can intelligently analyze the game and offer us insight that perhaps we would otherwise miss....

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If you can't stand the heat, as the old saying goes...

You're saying that he should "get out of the kitchen"? This board needs and should value posters like 'tab who can intelligently analyze the game and offer us insight that perhaps we would otherwise miss....

No, I like his insight. I didn't mean get off the boards.

I meant being snarky. If he wants to say 'I disagree with Poster X's assessment, and think Lauvao is fine as a starting guard', that's great. If he wants to say that others are wanting and wishing for Pinkston to start like it's some laughable notion, that's cool, too, but expect to have someone come back with equal snark.

He likes to be snarky, and then when others are snarky to him, all of a sudden it's some mean insult, and he was just minding his own business when he was blindsided.

You can watch hours,and hours,and hours of film,but if you don't know assignments,schemes and run fits,you can't say an olinemen doesn't know what he's doing.
Even in your example,the protection called may have been slide left,and Mack messed up.
You can talk about a player's one on one battles or an obvious missed block,but,there is no one here qualified enough to post about the mental aspect of oline play.

Our OL is as good as any in the game ... JMHO

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You can watch hours,and hours,and hours of film,but if you don't know assignments,schemes and run fits,you can't say an olinemen doesn't know what he's doing.
Even in your example,the protection called may have been slide left,and Mack messed up.
You can talk about a player's one on one battles or an obvious missed block,but,there is no one here qualified enough to post about the mental aspect of oline play.

You have just ticked off a load of know it alls

Good job

You are a very, very small man.

I can evaluate OL just fine. I didn't criticize the guy for his statement, but I'll criticize your demeaning, cruel self. You stir up trouble all the time. You allow your feelings on personalities to cloud every statement you make. I think you are a fraud.

If I watch a play over and over, eventually I can see what happened and who was wrong without knowing assignments, responsibilities, etc. I suppose there's a chance that sometimes I'm wrong but I don't think so.

I've watched some plays 10-12 and more times until I could recognize what each side of the ball was doing on a particular play. I've watched sack plays a half dozen times and still couldn't see where the defender was originally coming from. After finally seeing it and then watching it multiple more times it's not that hard to see who should have done what on the OL to prevent the sack.

I'll go so far to say though that sometimes nothing could have been done in what ever blocking scheme they were in because every OL was busy handling someone or some-two.

I can't see these things real-time. It's just too fast.

What I can't do is evaluate OL as individual positions. I don't understand proper hand or feet technique. I don't know leverage or hip bend. I only know these things exist and are important. But I don't know proper technique so can't really evaluate a player. I know if they're giving up sacks or letting a defender though to stop a rushing attempt for a loss or no gain, but I don't know and can't see why he's having that problem.

like your post until you can run on 4th and1 and be confident of getting it you dont have a top 5 line.

Vers & Bugs, the solution is obvious! Get Vickers back, then start HIM at guard. Simple. He ends up there anyhow. Depth galore.

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You can watch hours,and hours,and hours of film,but if you don't know assignments,schemes and run fits,you can't say an olinemen doesn't know what he's doing.
Even in your example,the protection called may have been slide left,and Mack messed up.
You can talk about a player's one on one battles or an obvious missed block,but,there is no one here qualified enough to post about the mental aspect of oline play.

You have just ticked off a load of know it alls

Good job

That was not my intent.
It was a quick reply,not to you,that obviously didn't convey my thoughts very well.
Without a playbook it's impossible to know who should be doing what on any given play.When ghosting,influence,and false reads work,the linemen recieve our cheers.When they don't,it appears that an olinemen missed his assignment,when in reality it's just good defense.Or bad acting.

Understand what you mean about assignments and line calls. But there is nothing in the NFL set in stone cause what you see is rarely what you get. In the NFL I see the need to adjust on the fly as the key even more so than a correct line call. That is why Continuity is a big time factor.

Again...some claim I'm in love with Lava - Its Twu Its Twu.

But I'm in love with the BROWNS...not only would it be hard to unseat Lava at RG but there also would be an interruption on the continuity.

He is aggressive he does play on the balls of his feet a lot so that when a defender he is blocking leaves he will go to the ground. But he gets up right away n continues down field.

The expert analyst (not the play by play guys, the ex-NFL players) of games who do not know the Browns will watch a lot of our film to familiarize themselves with us. On more than one occasion they singled out Lava, saying things like I love this guy he impressed me.

I remember specifically one of our last games...it happened. Not some Bozo from ProFootball looking at OL STATS...lol

Pinkston is far behind Lava in effectiveness. I don't mean to be arrogant or demeaning but when guys say stuff like personally I prefer Greco n Pinkston...I just shake my head.

As noted the guy who has the nastiness to possibly win the job on this current roster is Gilkey.

Miller - needs a lot of progress to just make the team.

Pinkston is OK at best and a decent backup...hope he learns how to snap so Greco doesn't have to move out of position in case Mack gets nicked up for a game or two!

A major play of all NFL LGs. Is the Power pull on stretch runs to the right. That is the key to look at we need a force. Pinkston in the past was way to slow n behind the play. Greco was better but was knocked back instead of him punishing the defender. This is what has made me state that the LG guard position has been our weak link on the OL. I hope the reports are true that Greco spent a lot of dedication this off season to Get Stronger...his footwork was excellent.

JMHO

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That was not my intent.

For the record, I didn't think it was. You were making a football point. I don't totally agree w/what you said, but there is certainly merit to your statement. I am not upset w/your post at all. I just had one too many doses of Da Man's Hot poison.

tab: I didn't see Greco "getting knocked back" like you did. I am going to say this again. I didn't like the guy. Thought he was just another warm body that Heckert brought in, but I watched him play and the more I watched him play, the more impressed I got. He was our best guard last year. I even think he was our second best overall lineman last year. You guys might not have appreciated him, but I think the new regime certainly does and that is why they gave him a long-term contract.

I agree with you on Lava Man, I also like the tandem of Greco and Lava @ OG, but I also think Pinkston is a starting talent in this league, and to have him @ backup here in Cleveland, well I am excited about that and our entire OL ... JMHO

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You are a very, very small man.

I can evaluate OL just fine. I didn't criticize the guy for his statement, but I'll criticize your demeaning, cruel self. You stir up trouble all the time. You allow your feelings on personalities to cloud every statement you make. I think you are a fraud.

Pot calling the kettle black again I see. For the past three years you've allowed your outright hatred of Mike Holmgren to cloud every statement you make.

So far from the reports at camp, Lauavo is starting at left guard with the one's. Don't know if that's a permanent thing, but at the moment it would seem "Lava" is our starting left guard. Frankly, I just hope Pinkston can get back to 100% health. A pulmonary embolism is a very dangerous thing.... Maybe he's better off as a backup this season and next season he can make a run at a starting spot. Either way, as long as we field the best players and they gel as a UNIT, I believe our line will hold us in good stead. Keep Weeden on his feet and give Richardson the holes he needs to stud out. *Fingers crossed* they all stay healthy! We've been really lucky with the line injury wise. Hope that continues.

Lauavau is starting on the right and Greco on the left, I believe.

Yeah, I mis-wrote that.. Oops lol. He was starting at RIGHT Guard with the ones.

excellent thought.

I agree our Oline is much better but for all of their skills we benefitted from a good FB most of all for running...Smith and Vickers made our RBs look great. Harrison beat a Jim Brown record for total yards. If we could just get another Vickers then we would really see Richardson make TDs. I don't think we could be stopped.

A lot of people have forgot about Terrel Smith, but man he was a monster.

j/c

I looked for a place to put this but couldn't really find one.

Gilkey looked decent last night. He played a fair amount at LG with the reserves.

As I watched that, I thought he might be better served to move to LG and Greco to RG.

I know we don't like to mix those guys up so much, but Greco looks bigger and Gilkey looks more agile. Looks more RG and LG respectively to my eye.

Greco goes back to LG when Lava returns.

The current situation at guard is why i wanted to draft Warmack. Anyhow, I hope Lombardi is searching for a few guards. Hopefully with some starting experience!

So you foresaw us having two of our top three guards getting injured?

WITCH!

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So you foresaw us having two of our top three guards getting injured?

WITCH!

No. My guess is that this individual, along with some other posters (that doesn't include me), thought guard was a position that was worth upgrading. But to be fair, those posters who felt this way, for the most part, didn't think a Guard prospect was worth a #6 pick. There was tons of uncertainty after the season... Greco filled in nicely but could he sustain it.. people were/are up/down on Lava, and Pinkston (at the time) was thought to be possibly done with football. It was a valid concern, just not at #6 IMO. That's all.

I know. I just thought the way baller97 put it was funny:

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The current situation at guard is why i wanted to draft Warmack.

That makes it sound like he knew we would have two injured guards. If Pinkston and Lauvao were healthy no one would be saying that.

Memphis thanks for clarifying my thoughts. I didn't want to re-hash the old debates about Warmack that's why I moved on quickly from that topic. Unlike a lot of folks on this board I don't think the Browns oline is that great especially the guards! Last year Browns RB's averaged less than 4 yards per carry. I re-watched Thursday's game against the lions and on several occasions the guards were getting forklifted into Weeden's lap. I think the Browns should've drafted one of the top guards. I didn't necessarily want a guard at #6 overall but I liked many of the trade down scenarios.

olinemen......it seems to me that the opposite is true when it comes to olinemen. it seems the best teams have the worst olinemen and the worst teams try to get the best oline....steelers, greenbay, pats, have bad oline. browns have decent oline....still 5-11

we draft jt ...5-11.;...mack.....5-11

In the past we have had very poor QB play even when they have given them protection.

And I'm not nearly as sold as many are on here that our run blocking is as good as they think it is. I don't believe our G's are scrubs per say, but they are far from anything stellar.

I think OG is becoming more of a key position in the league today. Teams are focusing on applying pressure up the middle of the field as opposed to around the edges ... and the guards are becoming more exposed. It is part of the reason why Cooper/Warmack were drafted so high (along with the fact that this draft sucked)