Hoyer says he'll be ready - DawgTalkers.net

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im glad to hear hoyers knee is rehabbing well, and love his motivation.

but im not sure theres a ton Hoyer can prove to them in april, whether his knee is 110% or not. Hell, even if he never injured his knee, but instead only had a chance to start the last 2 games, and played the exact same as he did.

I cannot imagine our coaching staff and front office teetering back and forth between wanting to get a franchise qb early, or not getting one. I think they recognize the severity of the situation, and how important it is not only to our success next year, but also how important it is to them if they want to keep their jobs.

They know how important the QB position is. Because of that, i dont think there is anything Hoyer can show them, in April, that will change their mind about drafting a QB, or where they draft one.

He can show he has a grasp on the new playbook. This is a completely different offense from last year. If we draft a QB at #4 then Hoyer is just stop gap if that. You don't draft a QB that high and sit him for years.... If we wait until #26 or the 2nd round then Hoyer has a chance to become the starter if he can play at a high level in our new O. How we draft will tell a lot about Hoyer's future with the Browns. If they think Hoyer can play in this offense then they probably will wait to take a QB. If they think he's strictly backup material then look for them to take a QB at #4.

He threw those three picks the first game he was thrown into which I am sure he wasn't even aware he was going to play. Keep in mind also if my memory serves me, Jason was taking all the reps that weren't given to Weeden with the number ones too, so he had limited, if any, practice time with the starter group.

JMO

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The bigger questions is, why is Daman throwing up thread and why was Dawg_LB about to?? Is it an eating disorder of some type? My advice: Daman & Dawg_LB, stop eating thread.

... but I get hungry?

he was thrown into which I am sure he wasn't even aware he was going to play. Keep in mind also if my memory serves me

Not thrown in there - He new early on in the week well we can assume he knew cause it was announced to all of us by mid-week he was starting and Campbell being by passed. He was there for the weekly game plan and preparation. Which too many just don't consider as value. Its part of Leadership and why he was 3-0.. He got the team to prepare correctly and once he got his first hit in - He was more comfortable the 2nd game as was the team.

It is this reason I think he will be the starter going in....regardless of #4 or 26 or 35 pick...Can he be beat out by the rookie? Sure but I doubt it. At least not the first several games. Maybe somewhere down the road and Hoyer is doing shaky results.

jmho

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Not thrown in there - He new early on in the week well we can assume he knew cause it was announced to all of us by mid-week he was starting and Campbell being by passed.

Actually you're 100% right. I was thinking Weeden hurt his thumb and Hoyer came into the game. Duh, memory took a big dump on me there ha ha ha... thanks bro for the correction.

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and why he was 2-0

Fixed it for you.

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and why he was 2-0

Fixed it for you.

Seriously... I like Hoyer but it really bothers me when peeps try to say Hoyer was 3-0. No he wasn't. He barely played in that 3rd game and we were losing when he got hurt! It's cheap to try to give him credit for that win. Even if it's technically accurate to say "we won all 3 games that Hoyer started"..... it's just significantly misleading to anyone that doesn't know the truth.

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It's cheap to try to give him credit for that win.

So we must give Weeden credit for that win. Sounds only fair...

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It's cheap to try to give him credit for that win.

So we must give Weeden credit for that win. Sounds only fair...

As much as folks dislike that idea, yes, we do. HE won that game, not Hoyer.

I know that will stick in a bunch of folks' craw, but it is what it is. Anyone can slam a guy, but you gotta give credit where it is due, too.
Just like Gordon's big games (the back-to-back 200+ yd games) came with Weeden at the helm - not Hoyer or Campbell.

Weeden did have a couple nice throws in the 2nd half of that game and I completely agree that he deserves credit for that win even though the official NFL statistic gives it to Hoyer.

Then, that game ended and he showed the 1st half of that game was more indicative of his normal skillset

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I dont disagree with you on a lot of that-- but again, i dont think those things you mentioned about hoyer show up in camp.

Sorry man, but this doesn't make any sense to me. If BH can't impress anyone in camp then what makes you think anyone else can? Unless I'm missing something, BH has the bigger edge on any comp. simply by being here last yr. and having pretty good tape to go by. I have to agree with Daman that you just knew we are a better Team with BH in there than anyone else. It's gonna be hard to replace that with a Rookie. Like you said, It's gonna be hard to impress anyone unless you go head to head and no one is going to get to do that until pre-season.

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and why he was 2-0

Fixed it for you.

Seriously... I like Hoyer but it really bothers me when peeps try to say Hoyer was 3-0. No he wasn't. He barely played in that 3rd game and we were losing when he got hurt! It's cheap to try to give him credit for that win. Even if it's technically accurate to say "we won all 3 games that Hoyer started"..... it's just significantly misleading to anyone that doesn't know the truth.

I'm not saying that he deserves it, but in the 'record books', he goes down as a 3-0 QB.

From Pro Football Reference

As I said earlier, technically that is correct but the reality is that he did not win that game. That's not a knock on Hoyer... it's just a fact.

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Seriously... I like Hoyer but it really bothers me when peeps try to say Hoyer was 3-0. No he wasn't. He barely played in that 3rd game and we were losing when he got hurt! It's cheap to try to give him credit for that win. Even if it's technically accurate to say "we won all 3 games that Hoyer started"..... it's just significantly misleading to anyone that doesn't know the truth.

That bothered me too until I was convinced that the reason the team played so well in that 3rd game is because Hoyer was with them all week in practice and had them ready and believing they could win.

Even the defense. Yes, even the defense. Hoyer brought the energy level of the whole team up and even the defense went into that 3rd game on a high.

The evidence for all this is to look at how they played when the practices were led by a QB other than Hoyer.

Hoyer had the team prepared, excited and believing they could win. That's the big difference. I'll give him that 3rd game due to the way he had them so prepared even Weeden couldn't screw it up.

"Even the defense. Yes, even the defense. Hoyer brought the energy level of the whole team up and even the defense went into that 3rd game on a high"

Hoyer gave our play makers a reason to believe. It even surprised me to watch the "team" play better. I see no reason why he won't bring it again this year. Seems like he even has a chip on his shoulder to prove the doubters wrong. I look forward to the quarterback position to get better, including the draft!

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I think the single biggest thing that made Hoyer look so good is Weeden.
Granted, Hoyer's quick release really helped things, but man, I can't help but feel that so much of the hype & hope attached to him is simply the result of the stark comparison between his play and Weeden's

Weeden made average look great. That's exactly what we saw.

I think you guys are right, but I believe there is more to it.

Hoyer did some things well that you really like seeing in a qb.

--He played up-tempo and it helped keep the defense off-balance.

--He was accurate w/most of his throws.

--He made very good reads for the most part. He did make two horrible reads against Minni in his first game, but you could see his disgust as soon as he threw them. He actually knew what he did wrong. The third pick was not his fault, his arm was hit while throwing after someone on the right side whiffed.

--The kid made big throws when we most needed him to do so.

--He instilled energy into the entire team and much of the fan base.

--He scored at the end of halves and at the end of games.

Hoyer was impressive. More impressive than his stats indicate. The shame of the entire thing is that his body of work is way, way too small. For this reason, we must draft a QB high. I really feel bad for the kid. I root for underdogs and he is certainly that. What a bad freaking break.

I do think he can succeed because of some of the things he displayed last year, but we simply can not count on that to come to fruition.

Oh...........and as far as the number of wins go.............who really cares?

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I dont disagree with you on a lot of that-- but again, i dont think those things you mentioned about hoyer show up in camp.

Sorry man, but this doesn't make any sense to me. If BH can't impress anyone in camp then what makes you think anyone else can? Unless I'm missing something, BH has the bigger edge on any comp. simply by being here last yr. and having pretty good tape to go by. I have to agree with Daman that you just knew we are a better Team with BH in there than anyone else. It's gonna be hard to replace that with a Rookie. Like you said, It's gonna be hard to impress anyone unless you go head to head and no one is going to get to do that until pre-season.

because i think the front office and coaching staff decides they need to draft a QB who can be our franchise QB.

just because brian hoyer inspired hope in a desperate fanbase, doesnt mean he did the same thing to guys paid millions of dollars to ensure the best players are on the field and winning games, or else they get fired. I dont see guys like that riding the low percentage hope train, i dont see them handcuffing themselves to hoyer. He played in 2 games, where, statistically, his QB rating was lower than weedens the following two games. and as we all know, weeden sucks.

Stats arent everything, i know that, but the fact is, these guys are unbiased. i mean seriously, people here are saying hoyer uplifted the entire team, even the guys who were in different rooms than him, he inspired them enough to win.

im sorry but thats just not enough for the people in charge to say "yeah he is our guy."

seriously, he had two consecutive games, 92 pass attempts, plus one scramble that resulted in an ACL TEAR.

theres no way thats the guy they put all of their eggs into the basket for.

so if we can agree on that, my next point relies on the front office drafting a QB high.

once in camp, i think again, hoyers strengths dont show up as much as during real games.
Once competing in camp against THEIR GUY, i think we see camp happen like all camps seem to happen. Its sloppy, sloppier than preseason. They allow guys more time to sit in the pocket and wait for the play to develop since there is no pass rush. One of hoyers greatest strengths is he seems to find the first man open and get it to him. thats cool, thats works, but when the guy he is competing against is spending too long in the pocket for week 1, but long enough in the pocket for july and august----- i think he hits more big impressive plays. Meanwhile, hoyer is making a lot of smart plays that will will in regular season, but get overlooked by the fact that theres a greater tolerance for patience in the pocket during camp.

its just a hunch, i dont know any better than anyone else, but its what i saw this past summer while i was at browns camp. Hoyer seemed more like the intelligent back up who was efficient but not spectacular. Meanwhile weeden and campbell looked more explosive because they took longer to make the passes, but the completions were more down field.

good post versatile^^^

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good post versatile^^^

I agree. It's a shame he ignores me, as recently I've been agreeing with him on a fair amount. But, my opinion is just that - opinion. In other words, my agreeing with him doesn't make him, or me, right......but I agree with him here.

J/C

Anybody who watched those games and couldn't see the leadership on display, has no clue.

Good players elevate those around them. I can honestly say that I can't think of another player since '99, who lifted the team like he did. There was confidence all over the field, and he was the one who inspired it. Great QBs have that ability. I don't know if Hoyer can be great, but if he can raise the play of the players around him, that makes him a leader, and that is what you want from your QB.

I really think sitting all those years and learning helped him immensely. You can tell it helped being in the room with Brady. It used to be young QBs got time to learn, IMO, that is what is missing today. Good college QBs are not being afforded the time to learn what to do at this level. I think it has ruined some that could have been good if given time to grow into the pro game.

Hoyer has gotten to do this, and it is not out of the question that he could end up being very good because of it. Last year, he never took reps with the starters until the week he was named starter, yet, he overcame that and after his missteps in the Minny game, corrected things and produced very well the following week.

I got a feeling that he is going to come back and surprise all the naysayers. I truly believe that the light has come on for him, and he is going to be a good player.

The problem we have as Browns fans, is we never see things like this happen. That causes many to poo poo away his performance. He most likely will never be a top 5 guy, but with the pitiful play of the QBs that have been here, a competent QB can be very satisfying. If we had competent play last year from the position, I truly believe things would have been different.

That being said, the defense was every bit as responsible, if not more, than the offense. When you are leading in the 4th quarter, it is the defense that has to be able to hold the lead.

I never put you on ignore. I just stopped replying to you because I was afraid I would say something to get me suspended. LOL

...and the myth of Saint Hoyer keeps being spread

He never came close to being a 60% passer at any level, College or NFL.

He barely threw more TDs than INTs, College or NFL

Sub 6.5 yds/PA the past two seasons

The D gave up 30+ points to Ponder in his first start, but yeah, his "appearance" made them play better

Aren't you the poster who reminds everyone of non factual stuff being posted again and again and again and people start believing it? Because that's exactly what you're doing when it comes to Hoyer. Pit is right, Weeden sucking has more to do with anything Hoyer "flashed". I'd add the timing of Gordon coming back from suspension too and facing banged up DBs. Gordon made Hoyer along with him being smarter and more experienced than Weeden. Hoyer is also more likeable...all lot of off field stuff went into this what now has become an overestimation of his skill level

He hit receivers in stride, made quick decisions, and didn't make too many blunders.

None of those are things we could say about Weeden after 3 NFL starts.

Jc
Quickly----- we can't pass on a qb if they feel one is their guy. Love Hoyer, but 2 game is NOT enough to hope for.

I will say I had goosebumps walking into the game Hoyer got hurt. The place had a buzz about it like we knew we were gonna win because of Hoyer. Less than hr later place goes silent while they drag Hoyer over a few feet off the field.....

But honestly we are only a qb away from being a good team. Average qb play brings hope to us. That's what Hoyer played, average. Draft one four, I don't care anymore. Hoyer might get beat by rook cause of knee. If not fine. Let's see what hoyer has. Then when he goes down (cause our qbs always do at least a few games) throw in rook. That's our best shot at a playoff team. Tired of settling when we know what we need

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He hit receivers in stride, made quick decisions, and didn't make too many blunders.

Having a 12 mnth subscribtion to NFL GamePass I have watched last seasons Browns games over and over. And imo as a passer Hoyer was not that great. I think a lot of fans are looking through rose coloured glasses. Hoyer missed a lot of receivers (59% completion if you need stats), yes he made some nice passes but slightly above average at best. What he did bring was 2 things:

1. He motivated the team (now i agree this is huge). When Weeden or Campbell played it just seemed like someone let the air out of the Browns. Its why I think people over rate Hoyer.

2. He was a huge improvement over Weeden and Campbell (glad we got rid of both).

IMO Hoyer is not the answer (although will be happy to be proven wrong.. go Browns), and boy do we need a QB. My only question is, does this years group of QB provide the answer? This is the dilemma I have this year. I am not sure any QB this year will be an improvement (lol maybe I am setting too high a standard).

Everyday I seem to change my mind whether we should take a QB in the 1st round.

I think we have to take a QB. Simply not enough material on Hoyer to put all our eggs in his basket. If both work out, trade one. But at least we have a QB at that point.

Btw my antipodean dawg where in Aus you at? ;-)

"When Weeden or Campbell played it just seemed like someone let the air out of the Browns. Its why I think people over rate Hoyer."

Nail on the head!

never mind Vers...

For those who believe Hoyer is not the answer...do you believe he will get better as he gains experience?

...and how can we say he is not the answer, based on just 3 starts?

IMO, Hoyer is an unknown...we need to see more before trying to label him, one way or the other.

I know what I saw and I liked it...now show me more.

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J/C

Anybody who watched those games and couldn't see the leadership on display, has no clue.

Good players elevate those around them. I can honestly say that I can't think of another player since '99, who lifted the team like he did. There was confidence all over the field, and he was the one who inspired it. Great QBs have that ability. I don't know if Hoyer can be great, but if he can raise the play of the players around him, that makes him a leader, and that is what you want from your QB.

I really think sitting all those years and learning helped him immensely. You can tell it helped being in the room with Brady. It used to be young QBs got time to learn, IMO, that is what is missing today. Good college QBs are not being afforded the time to learn what to do at this level. I think it has ruined some that could have been good if given time to grow into the pro game.

Hoyer has gotten to do this, and it is not out of the question that he could end up being very good because of it. Last year, he never took reps with the starters until the week he was named starter, yet, he overcame that and after his missteps in the Minny game, corrected things and produced very well the following week.

I got a feeling that he is going to come back and surprise all the naysayers. I truly believe that the light has come on for him, and he is going to be a good player.

The problem we have as Browns fans, is we never see things like this happen. That causes many to poo poo away his performance. He most likely will never be a top 5 guy, but with the pitiful play of the QBs that have been here, a competent QB can be very satisfying. If we had competent play last year from the position, I truly believe things would have been different.

That being said, the defense was every bit as responsible, if not more, than the offense. When you are leading in the 4th quarter, it is the defense that has to be able to hold the lead.

This is what I'm hoping for as well. Hoyer was very exciting to watch.

Well said!

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He hit receivers in stride, made quick decisions, and didn't make too many blunders.

Having a 12 mnth subscribtion to NFL GamePass I have watched last seasons Browns games over and over. And imo as a passer Hoyer was not that great. I think a lot of fans are looking through rose coloured glasses. Hoyer missed a lot of receivers (59% completion if you need stats), yes he made some nice passes but slightly above average at best. What he did bring was 2 things:

1. He motivated the team (now i agree this is huge). When Weeden or Campbell played it just seemed like someone let the air out of the Browns. Its why I think people over rate Hoyer.

2. He was a huge improvement over Weeden and Campbell (glad we got rid of both).

IMO Hoyer is not the answer (although will be happy to be proven wrong.. go Browns), and boy do we need a QB. My only question is, does this years group of QB provide the answer? This is the dilemma I have this year. I am not sure any QB this year will be an improvement (lol maybe I am setting too high a standard).

Everyday I seem to change my mind whether we should take a QB in the 1st round.

I think Hoyer is credited with being "accurate" because of his BALL PLACEMENT on those 59%.

I specifically remember a few of his incredibly perfect passes, in stride, to a WR who was running at full speed. Its pretty sad, but it was like it was the first time we saw a QB place a ball IN FRONT of the receiver, allowing him to make the catch without adjusting his body at all, and it allowed for better YAC than we saw with our other QBs.

Also, he threw the prettiest fade i have seen a QB throw in cleveland in a long long time.

So yeah, his accuracy wasnt overly impressive to me, but i do think that he had better ball placement on those 59% receptions than the other QBs had on their 54% completions. So not only did he jump up 5% in completions per attempt, he was putting a few of those balls in really well placed spots. So between the increase in %, the ball placement, and having his body of work compare to the other QBs on the team-- i can see why Hoyer is looked at as "accurate."

Also, i remember having a conversation mid season with my brother, trying to understand why the offense and team looked so different under hoyer.

I started thinking about gameplanning with QBs. When you have a guy like weeden, he has a big arm, can make all the throws, but he doesnt have it between the ears, and he is inconsistent at best. Conversely, Hoyer appeared to be more accurate, more cerebral, and more efficient.

Knowing that, going in to games, you have to make some very different game plans. You only have X many offensive drives, so you have to establish "how can i best score, per drive?"

With Hoyer, you may design your offense to march down the field with small chunks at a time. You know he is more efficient, more accurate, and appears to take what the defense gives him, not waiting for a huge play to develop, but quickly finding your open man and moving the chains. Thats cool, that works a lot of the time. With that kind of QB you keep at the small stuff and try to score by repeatedly making it down the field each scoring drive, stacking first downs. If you dont make it, you punt it off or maybe a FG, and keep let your defense hold them down.

With weeden, on the other hand, you have a guy who probably will not be able to play that kind of game. You dont see him making quick reads, passing it, moving the sticks, setting up, and doing it again. Instead it seemed more like you recognized that in order to score, you were going to need a few big plays. Low percentage stuff, yes, but big enough gains that while he may only hit on 10% of throws of that type, they make for gains that are 5x as many yards compared to a play that is 4x more successful as far as being completed, but doesnt end up yielding as many yards.

So between those two types of game plans, you have a very different look, as well as attitude.

With Hoyer, i felt like the game plan gave the rest of the offense the feeling that every single play counted, and every single play meant something. With Weeden i felt as if the offense knew it was in a less efficient offensive system, and that the success was reliant more upon weeden having a random stretch of good plays, surrounded by a number of offensive drives that turned out to be pointless because the good work you did at the beginning of the drive ended up meaning nothing without the low percentage big play saving any drive that was to have success.

Now this is entirely speculation. I have no idea if that was true, it just seemed to be the case to me, and made sense to me. It would be like if a basketball team was shooting only 2 pointers or only 3 pointers, yet arriving at the same score. The team shooting 2 pointers would have had a lot of passing and team work, and make more of their shots for a higher %. That team would look more like a team, more like everyone was in to it, than if you were to look at a team shooting only 3 pointers. That team would have less team work and passing and all that, and instead be relying on the bigger scoring shots. I imagine the 2 point team would look like a much better cohesive unit than the 3 point team. (this is obviously a super simplified analogy..)

so yeah, just my opinion. I think the team looked more like a team in that kind of offense, and i think thats why people feel Hoyer lifted up the team so much. I believe this is more likely the case than those who believe he was in the classroom and some how just uplifting the whole team. We dont have cheerleaders in cleveland, and i dont think hoyer did his best impression of one. i think he was just more efficient and it got the team more involved.

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Seriously... I like Hoyer but it really bothers me when peeps try to say Hoyer was 3-0. No he wasn't. He barely played in that 3rd game and we were losing when he got hurt! It's cheap to try to give him credit for that win. Even if it's technically accurate to say "we won all 3 games that Hoyer started"..... it's just significantly misleading to anyone that doesn't know the truth.

That bothered me too until I was convinced that the reason the team played so well in that 3rd game is because Hoyer was with them all week in practice and had them ready and believing they could win. ...

Saddest thing is, we get all excited about ANY QB who can win two or three games in a row for us.

We need a QB who can routinely win seven or eight games in a row for us and it not be a big deal, just business as usual ...

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...and the myth of Saint Hoyer keeps being spread

He never came close to being a 60% passer at any level, College or NFL.

He barely threw more TDs than INTs, College or NFL

Sub 6.5 yds/PA the past two seasons

The D gave up 30+ points to Ponder in his first start, but yeah, his "appearance" made them play better

Aren't you the poster who reminds everyone of non factual stuff being posted again and again and again and people start believing it? Because that's exactly what you're doing when it comes to Hoyer. Pit is right, Weeden sucking has more to do with anything Hoyer "flashed". I'd add the timing of Gordon coming back from suspension too and facing banged up DBs. Gordon made Hoyer along with him being smarter and more experienced than Weeden. Hoyer is also more likeable...all lot of off field stuff went into this what now has become an overestimation of his skill level

I can't say I disagree with your assessment. And considering the horrific play we've had at QB for so long, I'm OK with Hoyer until the next great thing comes along. We all know we'll draft a QB this year. Hoyer knows his time is now. Of course he's going to say he's ready to play now. If he isn't then he's as good as gone. We'll just see how it plays out. Either Hoyer keeps the new guy on the bench or he can't.

I'll contribute to building his statue if he wins us a Super Bowl. Until then he's just another player.

I belieive that if BH stays healthy, a decent coaching staff, a decent defense,and some help from their new aquired fa,s and a little help from the draft we will make the playoffs or come close next year. ....book it dawgs

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I belieive that if BH stays healthy, a decent coaching staff, a decent defense,and some help from their new aquired fa,s and a little help from the draft we will make the playoffs or come close next year. ....book it dawgs

I agree. We underperformed last year as well as got hit by injury.

I think we see a BIG turnaround this season.

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For those who believe Hoyer is not the answer...do you believe he will get better as he gains experience?

...and how can we say he is not the answer, based on just 3 starts?

IMO, Hoyer is an unknown...we need to see more before trying to label him, one way or the other.

I know what I saw and I liked it...now show me more.

The problem, IMO, is what we've seen from so many back-ups before. When the opposing D has no game film to break down on a QB, they have a tough time game planning against him.

That's what makes "the three starts" a two edged sword. You can say that is something to build on, or you can say this gives your opponents film with which to game plan against him. More times than not, we've seen the latter happen.

I do like what I saw from Hoyer but I do believe it has been overstated by many. I've simply seen it far too often that a back-up QB comes in and looks good until your opponents get some film on them. They use that film to look at his strong points and weaknesses and then in turn game plan to capitalize on what they've learned.

Maybe that won't be the case with Hoyer. But my experiences indicates that's more likely than not.

JMHO

I am not sure how anyone can say with any degree of certainty if Hoyer is or isn't the answer.. Right now, I don't know.. I only know one thing, the team looked better with him behind center.. That is all I know for sure.

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Hoyer was impressive. More impressive than his stats indicate. The shame of the entire thing is that his body of work is way, way too small. For this reason, we must draft a QB high. I really feel bad for the kid. I root for underdogs and he is certainly that. What a bad freaking break.

I do think he can succeed because of some of the things he displayed last year, but we simply can not count on that to come to fruition.

Oh...........and as far as the number of wins go.............who really cares?

Unless I'm misunderstanding something here, this quote seems very much like a contradiction in terms.

You state that his body of work was too small. That we can't count on some of the things he had shown last year to come to fruition, then ask who cares how many games he won.

To me they're directly connected. Had Hoyer remained healthy and done well, we wouldn't have any of these questions. His body of work wouldn't have been small and he would have won more games.

To me those are all connected.

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I am not sure how anyone can say with any degree of certainty if Hoyer is or isn't the answer.. Right now, I don't know.. I only know one thing, the team looked better with him behind center.. That is all I know for sure.

I don't know either. I'm just going from my experiences. Matt Flynn, Kelly Holcomb and the list goes on. So many back-ups have elevated the hopes of fans only to be far less than expected after their opposition gets game film on them.

That's not a prediction on my part. Just a more than likely scenario given the evidence I've seen concerning back up QB's who come in looking impressive to start out.

Hopefully that's not the outcome here. But I certainly don't feel we have the evidence to say one way or the other at this point. It's just a scenario I believe many fans either hadn't thought of or have simply dismissed.

we need a QB hat actually knows the correct way to slide.

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The problem, IMO, is what we've seen from so many back-ups before. When the opposing D has no game film to break down on a QB, they have a tough time game planning against him.

You see that with every QB. Backup or #1 overall pick. The difference is that the good Qb's make adjustments and after a slight dip in production do well again whereas the backup aren't able to adjust to the changes made by defenses.

PPE ....you fixed absolutely nothing. You just did not read...I said WHY 3-0 without your fix with out any logic. I stated he prepared the game plan throughout the week which after he went down the team was well prepared and rallied.

Why 3-0 a starter...without some 2-0 BS...can you counter my statement logically so I can at least see your point. and please don't do that sorry butt correction thing on a quote unless I made an honest mistake. All that told me was that you skimmed and read the NUMBERS 3-0 without any football took it upon yourself to say I'm wrong without saying I'm wrong. PO'd you did that as PPE

...as the owner of this board... HEY GREAT JOB

At least have the balls to refer that post to me

I can see if you have a difference of opinion. I explained why I state 3-0 - There is a part of the game called preparation. I use to refer to him as 2.25 - but I have since went back to that game and realized it wasn't WEEDEN who won that game. The team was ready to win. A big credit goes to Hoyer and his preparation and having the team going into the game with the WILL TO WIN...with the BELIEF that they will win. A little credit goes to Thursday National football to keep the life going to.

But the fact also to see how they deflated after the realization kicked in that Hoyer was out for the season. The following week told me a lot of that fight was Hoyer leadership!

It really bothers me Peeps ignore what I wrote and put me down without a discussion or a counter to their position except for the fact that you can count up to 1 quarter. Come on Man!

and before you get PO'd I'm not saying you have to agree with me. But don't put me down

and insult my intelligence when I stated why I think what I think - without some counter logic besides he played one quarter and we were behind 7-0.

???

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PPE ....you fixed absolutely nothing. You just did not read...I said WHY 3-0 without your fix with out any logic. I stated he prepared the game plan throughout the week which after he went down the team was well prepared and rallied.

So no matter who the QB was, the team being prepared was the key? To me that just makes no sense.

Holcomb was 2-0 no matter what the stat sheet said. And if the team was so much more prepared when Hoyer was starting, to me that's more a reflection on the players and coaching staff than anything.

A team prepares every week for the entire week to face their opponent. Nothing new in that revelation.

I don't see what is to argue Tab.

You have some lofty belief that the entire team was simply lofted up on high because a career back-up was starting. That's not something of substance but rather some belief based on personal feelings.

Some people simply don't buy that theory, which is exactly what it is, just like some don't buy into evolution. It sounds more like the stories dreams or movies are made of.

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I am not sure how anyone can say with any degree of certainty if Hoyer is or isn't the answer.. Right now, I don't know.. I only know one thing, the team looked better with him behind center.. That is all I know for sure.

I don't know either. I'm just going from my experiences. Matt Flynn, Kelly Holcomb and the list goes on. So many back-ups have elevated the hopes of fans only to be far less than expected after their opposition gets game film on them.

That's not a prediction on my part. Just a more than likely scenario given the evidence I've seen concerning back up QB's who come in looking impressive to start out.

Hopefully that's not the outcome here. But I certainly don't feel we have the evidence to say one way or the other at this point. It's just a scenario I believe many fans either hadn't thought of or have simply dismissed.

Comparing him to Kelly Holcomb or Matt Flynn is just like comparing Colt McCoy to Drew Brees...

I understand it as an argument when people would say Colts too short. Height hasn't affected the ability of Brees. So it's a valid argument. The problem with McCoy was he didn't have the arm or the brain of Brees.

Short guys can win a Super Bowl...

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It is this reason I think he will be the starter going in....regardless of #4 or 26 or 35 pick...Can he be beat out by the rookie? Sure but I doubt it. At least not the first several games. Maybe somewhere down the road and Hoyer is doing shaky results.

jmho

And that's exactly what we shouldn't do. Take a guy at #4 and sit him down for four years never getting anything out of that pick. We aren't good enough to afford that.
If Hoyer is the guy we need to get him some HELP. Not help sitting on the bench year after year, but an on the field player. This notion that it would be great to draft a QB and never let him play seems ludicrous. If we take a QB at #4 they need to do everything in their power to get him on the field ASAP. If Hoyer starts game one that is a big fat FAIL for the staff and every game he's under center is another fail.
Should the Colts have sat Peyton Manning? Andrew Luck? You want a QB to bring along slowly while Hoyer gets his chance, you do so later in the draft. That's for second round QB's. Not top five picks.

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For those who believe Hoyer is not the answer...do you believe he will get better as he gains experience?

...and how can we say he is not the answer, based on just 3 starts?

IMO, Hoyer is an unknown...we need to see more before trying to label him, one way or the other.

I know what I saw and I liked it...now show me more.

The problem, IMO, is what we've seen from so many back-ups before. When the opposing D has no game film to break down on a QB, they have a tough time game planning against him.

That's what makes "the three starts" a two edged sword. You can say that is something to build on, or you can say this gives your opponents film with which to game plan against him. More times than not, we've seen the latter happen.

I do like what I saw from Hoyer but I do believe it has been overstated by many. I've simply seen it far too often that a back-up QB comes in and looks good until your opponents get some film on them. They use that film to look at his strong points and weaknesses and then in turn game plan to capitalize on what they've learned.

Maybe that won't be the case with Hoyer. But my experiences indicates that's more likely than not.

JMHO

Pit...Defenses will adjust to Hoyers game...Hoyer, with the help of the coaching staff, will adjust our offense accordingly. I'm not concerned about opponents game planning for Hoyer.

I view all the negatives being brought up, for what they are...folks playing the what if game or simply relying on our (the fans) past experiences concerning the QB position, since 1999. Concerning the QB position, I believe Browns fans have experienced so many negatives, it's difficult to view any QB in a positive way.

I don't blame any of the fans for feeling the way they do about the future of the team or the QB situation...I'm just a guy who prefers to look at the present situation viewing the glass as half full... rather than half empty. Hoyer's surgery was a success and he worked his butt off rehabbing...and he is ready to go.

I know what I saw from the offense with Hoyer at QB last season...he made everyone on the offense look better when he was QBing. I believe he is capable of being the Browns QB of the future...he appears to have the necessary tools....now it is up to Hoyer to prove it.

Nothing new in that revelation.
Yeah I know -Nothing new

Lets see Same coaches in that preparation. But with Hoyer the team is 3-0 in that preparation. The team is visibly different in their confidence and belief that they WILL WIN. But it has to do with the Players the coaches - and the 1-13 record without Hoyer is just a coincidence...

I guess Ignorance is Bliss.

So PIT and any board member can PRETEND that preparation being a big key is just nothing new. THEN oh Smart one...why is it when Hoyer was there in the MOST leadership of POSITIONS in football. The team was 3-0...which would not be as noticeable if not for the fact that the team went 1-13 without him preparing for the week.

Yeah yeah yeah I know just a coincidence

Holcomb was 2-0 no matter what the stat sheet said.

I know I know you are well versed on this subject - about as accurate as your THERE IS NOTHING TO DISCUSS CAUSE ITS BEYOND MY COMPREHENSION.... Otay

you convinced me. Oh wait you don't have to. I'm just wrong and he's 2-0 end of discussion. (fill in the words here that get me tossed)

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Some people simply don't buy that theory, which is exactly what it is, just like some don't buy into evolution.

Im pretty sure you were JK and just attempting to rustle peoples jimmies, but man this is one of my biggest pet peeves in the world because so many people believe it.

People think a SCIENTIFIC THEORY is the same thing as a random supposition heard in their every day life. Like the argument creation should be taught in schools alongside evolution "I think its only fair for students to hear both sides, evolution is after all only a theory."

Its like, holy hell, this isnt the same thing as your "theory of whos been taking your newspaper."

/rant

lol. Sorry bro, Hoyer doesn't prepare the game plans. I guess I understand the love affair with Hoyer given how bad our QBs have been but I'm sorry, you're not going to tell me that Hoyer somehow played the offensive coordinator role too lol. Hoyer did NOT win that 3rd game.

Truth is it doesn't matter though. Either Hoyer will step up and become the guy... or not. While Hoyer certainly has a shot I think many of you guys are setting yourselves up for heartbreak yet again.

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A big credit goes to Hoyer and his preparation and having the team going into the game with the WILL TO WIN...with the BELIEF that they will win. A little credit goes to Thursday National football to keep the life going to.

LOL. This is the most ridiculous attempt to pump up a player I've ever read on here, man.

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and insult my intelligence when I stated why I think what I think - without some counter logic besides he played one quarter and we were behind 7-0.

You insult our intelligence with your above "logic" and yet wish to refute the fact that Hoyer was LOSING the game when he went out, and despite his efforts at such, without him on the field at all, we came back to win?

Give us all a break.

Hoyer doesn't prepare the game plans.

Is this a comedy routine...just where did I say he prepares the game plan. What he does is help prepare the team to EXECUTE the game plan.

I deleted the next few paragraphs...not cause of foul language. But I thought I would teach you something. But all I will get is another Hissy fit. Yeah thanks for the football...it must be I have a "LOVE AFFAIR" with Hoyer. So I'll stop here. Enjoy your ignorance....yep We won that Buffalo game Despite Hoyer.

I heard Hoyer also put a magic spell on the Bills to help us win.

Here's the way I see it.

Hoyer deserves a chance to start. He'll either be an above average starter or the best back up we've had since Testaverde!

You're cracking me up Tab. Why so serious?

If you want to believe that in addition to Hoyer learning the game plan and preparing himself that he also got everyone else prepared to play winning football then fine. That's your opinion. I think it's a laughable opinion but whatever... you have every right to believe that. Personally, I think the coaches did FAR more of the preparing players to win than Hoyer did. In fact, I think the coaches helped prepare Hoyer to try to win. Unfortunately, Hoyer was LOSING before he got hurt but let's not dwell on the technicalities.

Maybe Hoyer prepared Weeden to win too? Man, I think we need to get Hoyer a headset and just let him be the coach... guy is A.... MAZING!

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Here's the way I see it.

Hoyer deserves a chance to start. He'll either be an above average starter or the best back up we've had since Testaverde!

I agree that he deserves a chance to start, just like Alex Tanney deserves the same shot. I'm still confused by the lovefest (not targeted at any specific member) for Hoyer on these boards. In one game, he threw 3 TDs, 3 INTs, and took 3 sacks. In his second game, he threw 2 TDs, 0 INTs, and took 3 sacks. In his third game, he got injured so early that he had no impact on the outcome one way or another. I didn't see anything from him during his short time on the field that leads me to believe he is starter caliber. He looked like an average NFL QB who could be relied upon as a quality backup. We are all so starved for good QB play that I think a lot of board members have blown his performance up way too much and are comfortable with heading into the season with him as the anointed starter based on false memories of greatness. Let's look at Hoyer's time in the NFL and what he's done in his limited appearances.

2013--Already mentioned above
2012--30/53, 330 yards, 1 TD, 2 INT, 4 sacks in 2 games
2011--1/1 in 1 game
2010--7/13, 1 TD in 1 game
2009--8/12, 1 sack in 1 game

I desperately hope the team drafts a QB early with the intention of that player being their franchise QB for years to come while Hoyer is the backup because Hoyer hasn't done one thing to make me think he's anything more than that.

It's just what we saw, man, just what we saw. I saw a guy who point blank made me feel like Brian Sipe was back! So that's all I got for you. I for one enjoyed every down he played due to that feeling.

OH FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD

There is no love fest for Hoyer.

There are however a few of us, myself included, that think there "MAY" be more to look at in him.

Nothing more than that

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OH FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD

There is no love fest for Hoyer.

There are however a few of us, myself included, that think there "MAY" be more to look at in him.

Nothing more than that

Yeah, there is a lovefest. You may not be part of it, but I have seen it many times.

Completely agree with that. It did feel so much better having a competent QB playing for us. Really was night and day compared to what we've had in the recent past. That I think is the problem. A quality back-up QB will look like a pro bowler compared to what we've had here recently. Can Hoyer eventually be the guy? YES. Are the odds in his favor? NO. lol.

I'm hoping for the best but I try not to talk myself into believing I can somehow already know Hoyer is the guy based on his limited playing time with us. Perfect example is some peeps trying hard to get us to believe Hoyer won 3 games... that's a joke man. He didn't even play 3 games. It's just a joke.

See that's where you're being hypocritical Tab. It seems you feel if we disagree with you "we live in ignorance"? Since when was an opposing opinion living in ignorance?

You know as well as I do, that we've seen LOTS of back up QB's, both here and on other teams, come in and light it up for a couple of games and then fall apart. It's happened over and over again in the NFL.

IF Hoyer were " a complete QB" in all phases of the game, I may tend to agree with you. But that's not what I saw. It's about perception Bud. I saw a kid with average skills that played average football. Which is all we really needed to win "some games".

After witnessing horrendous play by Weeden, it did help the team win and did seem to help the attitude on the field. But to claim when that QB crumpled on the field, that "his presence was still felt" is quite a reach IMO.

While we feel differently about this, it doesn't mean either of us are "living in ignorance" and I've actually come to expect a little more from you than that.

But I've been disappointed before so I'll live.

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OH FOR CRYIN OUT LOUD

There is no love fest for Hoyer.

There are however a few of us, myself included, that think there "MAY" be more to look at in him.

Nothing more than that

Yeah, there is a lovefest. You may not be part of it, but I have seen it many times.

There are how many posters on this board, 200 or so. What do you see, 2 or 3 guys saying they love hoyer? I don't know of one poster on here that is in a love fest with Hoyer. I don't know one person..

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I don't know of one poster on here that is in a love fest with Hoyer. I don't know one person..

I think you just hurt Tab's feelings.

I find it ironic that most of us agree that the QB needs a full season of games to be judged by, but all of the sudden BH is just Avg. because he did not complete 70% of his passes and might have missed a open WR a time or two? In his THIRD game?

A game he did not get to finish. What gets me is a lot on here want to waste a #4 pick on a QB that for all intents and purposes has more holes than BH. Yeah that's the ticket. Lets go get BQ again, I heard he was the most NFL ready

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I find it ironic that most of us agree that the QB needs a full season of games to be judged by, but all of the sudden BH is just Avg. because he did not complete 70% of his passes and might have missed a open WR a time or two? In his THIRD game? A game he did not get to finish. What gets me is a lot on here want to waste a #4 pick on a QB that for all intents and purposes has more holes than BH. Yeah that's the ticket. Lets go get BQ again, I heard he was the most NFL ready

Actually, what folks are trying to point out with those things is that we don't know enough to have any real context on him... BECAUSE he's only finished two games.
Some people are super high on him, and in the process they are ignoring that while he was markedly better than what he replaced, he really wasn't all that great in his short spell.

So, I guess that means that those who are high on BH must be tempered with those that think he aint all that? Whatever happened to let him play a full season and get used to the system and players before throwing him out?

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I find it ironic that most of us agree that the QB needs a full season of games to be judged by, but all of the sudden BH is just Avg. because he did not complete 70% of his passes and might have missed a open WR a time or two? In his THIRD game? A game he did not get to finish. What gets me is a lot on here want to waste a #4 pick on a QB that for all intents and purposes has more holes than BH. Yeah that's the ticket. Lets go get BQ again, I heard he was the most NFL ready

Actually, what folks are trying to point out with those things is that we don't know enough to have any real context on him... BECAUSE he's only finished two games.
Some people are super high on him, and in the process they are ignoring that while he was markedly better than what he replaced, he really wasn't all that great in his short spell.

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So, I guess that means that those who are high on BH must be tempered with those that think he aint all that? Whatever happened to let him play a full season and get used to the system and players before throwing him out?

Which is exactly the point. nobody said to throw him out. Nobody said he won't be a success.

But stating what we've seen thus far isn't a bad thing. And no matter how you or anyone else wishes to spin it, there have been many back-up QB's who have came in and played well for a few games, then folded like cotton sheets.

That doesn't mean Hoyer will. What it does mean as there is as much or more of a chance this will happen than won't.

While nobody is advocating that Hoyer be "thrown out" as you seem to claim, some are putting a lot of stock in two complete games. One even wishes to give credit to Hoyer when he left the game with the Browns behind for the third win.

As you have pointed out, some middle ground should be used in regards to Hoyer. Since you claim you need to see a full season worth of starts before you know, surely you're not suggesting people be sold on him with two complete games under his belt are you?

Brian Hoyer isn't a rookie. This isn't some highly touted 1st round pick that just got to the NFL and we are all knee jerk judging on 3 games (2 games actually). There is history here and as hard as it is to succeed in the NFL it is even harder to bump around from multiple different teams and then turn into a franchise QB. Just so rare. Oh, and he's coming off a major injury but whatever lol.

Ok, so let's stop playing with words and put a number to our optimism/pessimism. Then we'll really know where we each stand... I'll go first.

As of today, I think Hoyer has a 20% chance of being our guy. A 1/5 chance is really not that low given Hoyer's history so I consider myself an optimist.

I like the kid but I just think it's a long shot. If Hoyer ends up being the guy I won't have been wrong (by the way). This is about probability and I think he has a real shot.

Where are you at (said to all posters)?

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So, I guess that means that those who are high on BH must be tempered with those that think he aint all that? Whatever happened to let him play a full season and get used to the system and players before throwing him out?

I haven't seen anyone saying to throw him out.
What have you been reading?

Ok...I'll bow down to your - "AIN'T SO DEBATE"

you tell me smart ass...just why did we win the 3 games he started in a 4-12 season???

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Since you claim you need to see a full season worth of starts before you know, surely you're not suggesting people be sold on him with two complete games under his belt are you?

Oddly enough yes

How else are we gonna know what we got? I do think we should draft a QB, just not in the first round. I feel like any QB we could get in this draft will need a least a yr, maybe two before they would over take BH. Now if we could get him at a good spot then yeah, your always looking to upgrade. BH is still young enough to last another 5 yrs. maybe more. Hope it all works out.

I'll ignore your name calling for the moment.. the other Refs may not.

Simple answer: We played better than (at the time) bad opponents.

Vikings: Hoyer did good, but he also threw three INT's. We got LUCKY to be able to overcome that (them having three turnovers to our four was big), and Josh Gordon coming back and going off certainly helped. Catching them off guard with Spencer Lanning throwing a TD pass helped, too.

Cinci: Hoyer had a GREAT game. Simply outstanding defense holding Cincy to 6 points

Buffalo: Weeden, Gordon, the D keeping Buffalo out of the end zone in the 4th. I can GUARANTEE that we didn't win because of some mystical preparation by Hoyer "getting the team ready".

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What have you been reading?

I guess the comments about how we need to draft the next big QB and give BH the back-up spot. Anyone we draft this yr. will not be ready to take over for at least a yr. maybe more IMO. We are better served to go with BH until we can be sure of what we have in a Rookie. The feeling among some is that Teddy B or Johnny Football is gonna come in and light it up, hey hope it happens, but I'm not holding my breath.

I agree with you. No matter who we draft, unless he shows that he is head-and-shoulders better and we HAVE to start him (and maybe not even then) he needs to sit and while we let Hoyer run the offense this year. Basically, unless whatever rookie we bring in makes it impossible for the coaches to sit him, he needs to sit.

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..and the myth of Saint Hoyer keeps being spread

What? I said that we have to draft a rookie QB high in the first round and that his body of work was too small to be able to count on him.

Am I not allowed to evaluate what I saw in the games he played? Do I have to "only" criticize like some of you are?

Am I not allowed to look at both the positives and negatives in order to not being one of the Hoyer Myth Builders?

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Hoyer was impressive. More impressive than his stats indicate. The shame of the entire thing is that his body of work is way, way too small. For this reason, we must draft a QB high. I really feel bad for the kid. I root for underdogs and he is certainly that. What a bad freaking break.

I do think he can succeed because of some of the things he displayed last year, but we simply can not count on that to come to fruition.

Oh...........and as far as the number of wins go.............who really cares?

I threw the "who cares how many games he won" comment in at the end of my post in response to all the arguing over if he should be credited w/2 or 3 wins. I didn't want to make two posts on the subject at that time.

But again, who cares? Really?

Unless I'm misunderstanding something here, this quote seems very much like a contradiction in terms.

You state that his body of work was too small. That we can't count on some of the things he had shown last year to come to fruition, then ask who cares how many games he won.

To me they're directly connected. Had Hoyer remained healthy and done well, we wouldn't have any of these questions. His body of work wouldn't have been small and he would have won more games.

To me those are all connected.

J/C ..... kinda.

When I look back at the Minnesota game, and some things really jump out at me.

Hoyer really seemed to understand the offense better, and made very quick decisions./throws.

Those throws weren't always 100% on target.

We had traded Trent, and the perception was that we were tanking. Other teams should never take an opponent for granted, but when it's all over ESPN that the Browns had given up ... that had to have an impact.

Hoyer threw 3 INT in that game. The Vikings had only 12 INT all season long.

We had a pair of trick special teams plays that directly led to a TD. Without both of those, we probably lose.

We still looked more competent with Hoyer at QB. I cannot just move past that. He really seemed to understand what was going on everywhere.

As far as the Bengals game, Hoyer did play a much better game. However, let's not forget that 3/4 of the Bengals defense was out for that game. That has to have had a major impact. The defense really stifled the Bengals offense, and that's really the predominant reason why we won that game. However, Hoyer played well, and again seemed to understand exactly what was going on all around him on the field. I think that his ball placement was better in this ball, but obviously he had fewer big plays.

I love the leadership that Hoyer showed. I think that his on field presence is so far above any other QB we put on the field last year that it's like High School vs College. He also showed amazing pre-snap ability, and understanding of the play. He was able to make sure that everyone was lined up properly, and move players when they weren't.

His ball placement on short throws was, for the most part, excellent. He threw some slants that were absolutely perfect. (one was the slant that Gordon dropped in the Bills game, that would have been a huge play) However, the further down the field a play goes, the less accurate he seemed to be with his placement and timing. Maybe that improves with time and experience, and maybe not. However, I do worry that he might be a guy who is somewhat a one trick pony, like Kelly Holcomb was. Holcomb could make the pre-snap reads, and quick throws, but that was about it. Once teams caught on to that, they finished him, I am absolutely not saying that this is the path Hoyer will take, but there is some concern that it could happen. (for me, anyway)

I think that Hoyer deserves to be in the conversation for starting QB, and I think that he will be, but we absolutely cannot, and should not, pin 100% of our hopes on him.

Yup. Good post.

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I agree with you. No matter who we draft, unless he shows that he is head-and-shoulders better and we HAVE to start him (and maybe not even then) he needs to sit and while we let Hoyer run the offense this year. Basically, unless whatever rookie we bring in makes it impossible for the coaches to sit him, he needs to sit.

That I disagree with. Should be fair competition with best QB wins. Hoyer shouldn't be handed anything. If he really is a good QB then he should win the competition so shouldn't be a problem right?

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I agree with you. No matter who we draft, unless he shows that he is head-and-shoulders better and we HAVE to start him (and maybe not even then) he needs to sit and while we let Hoyer run the offense this year. Basically, unless whatever rookie we bring in makes it impossible for the coaches to sit him, he needs to sit.

That I disagree with. Should be fair competition with best QB wins. Hoyer shouldn't be handed anything. If he really is a good QB then he should win the competition so shouldn't be a problem right?

There are NO QBs in this draft who are NFL ready...no Andrew Luck or RGIII caliber QBs in this draft. Manziel completed only two seasons in college while Bridgewater and Bortles are juniors coming out early.

I expect the Browns to sign a veteran QB (maybe Grossman) as well as draft a QB, with both competing with Hoyer for the starting job. But after the final pre season game, I would not be surprised if the QB depth chart had the rookie ranked as the #3 QB with the veteran ranked #2 and Hoyer the starter...barring injury.

jmo

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I agree with you. No matter who we draft, unless he shows that he is head-and-shoulders better and we HAVE to start him (and maybe not even then) he needs to sit and while we let Hoyer run the offense this year. Basically, unless whatever rookie we bring in makes it impossible for the coaches to sit him, he needs to sit.

That I disagree with. Should be fair competition with best QB wins. Hoyer shouldn't be handed anything. If he really is a good QB then he should win the competition so shouldn't be a problem right?

Like I said, unless the rookie is head and shoulders above Hoyer, I think Hoyer should get the nod at this point.
My reason is that I don't think that this year is about this year.. I think that no matter who we draft, they should be given a year to acclimate to the league, to the pace of the game, etc...UNLESS they play so well as to make it impossible for the coaches to do that. If it isn't THAT cut and dry, then sit him. If there is a debate on who is better, or you have to draw straws or flip coins.... sit him.

We got LUCKY to be able to overcome that

Could have sworn Hoyer led a late drive to have us win that game. Possibly my memory is bad.

Cinci - great game against a good team.

Buffalo - we came in that game with full confidence that we could win - mostly due to Hoyer and the anticipation of his play. We were ready, Coaches try to get us ready every game. But we executed the offense. Weeden didn't lose the game. Fact is we had a new QB after Hoyer went down for future games and the team ON O as well as D just didn't execute. They didn't FOLD or Quit, they simply didn't believe they were going to win. They experienced a totally different vibe out there with Hoyer preparing. I mean you can Laugh at that all you want. Was there not a different VIBE on the field with Hoyer in? Why is it hard to believe that there was a different vibe in practices all through the week.

Football is a very emotionally driven game. And I got news for you - IF YOU DO NOT BELIEVE YOU CAN WIN...not Rah Rah stuff...I MEAN deep down Believe. YOU WILL NOT WIN!

I'll give you the Vikings game in that preparation the team was probably curious - as in hey this is a bit different and hey this has a good flow. Ooops another word I should not use FLOW. So so important for an offense. The team feels the FLOW and reacts to it. Defense gets more excited and more determined to make stops to make plays! I guess the word LEADERSHIP should not be used also on the board - we should laugh at that concept too after all its hard to see. And like the earth being flat...IF WE CANNOT SEE IT THEN IT DOESN'T EXIST. So laugh all you want. INSULT me - way much more btw than anything I said. All you want. But guess what...The Earth is Oval.

I'm just shaking my head here.

I cannot believe that you typed up that much to try to give credit for a win to a guy that barely even appeared in the game, had a 50% completion rate (2 of 4) and only 25 yds passing.... when we were losing with a completely ineffective offense when he went out of the game.

You know what... suuuure. Hoyer won that one for us.

Good job, Hoyer, lol!!

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I don't know of one poster on here that is in a love fest with Hoyer. I don't know one person..

I think you just hurt Tab's feelings.

Tabber has a love fest going with Hoyer? Well, if that's the case, then I know ONE.

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They experienced a totally different vibe out there with Hoyer ...

I am taking this slightly out of context, but there was indeed a positive "vibe" with Hoyer under center. It was particularly apparent when Hoyer went down; the "vibe" dramatically changed. And yes, there was improved "FLOW" with Hoyer...

Obviously he didn't play much in the game...shake your head all you wish - not my problem if you cannot grasp what I'm saying.

What I'm saying is statistically they give him the win as he started. But you and others are saying NO HE IS ONLY 2-0 that I n others have NO RIGHT to say 3-0.

I'm saying he was a big part in us winning that game. It is no "COINCIDENCE" that our team played to win - played believing they would win the game.

Its no "Coincidence" that after that game without Hoyer - the team played flat. the team could not finish games. The team simply didn't believe in Weeden nor Campbell. When you say you are SMH - are you then saying this just didn't happen. That this was simply a COINCIDENCE. That the mind set from the preparation for the game with Hoyer as the Leader/QB. That the Defense seemed to play Better. This was not fact but just a Coincidence???

I'm not saying he gets sole credit for that win. I'm saying that if he was not the QB in the Viking game, in the Bengal game and of course not in the Buffalo game - I don't think we have a rats chance of winning that game.

I'm saying to those like yourself who wish to MAKE UP YOUR OWN STATISTIC and say - Correct your post to say what I THINK not what you think, That btw is a BS way to state your opinion. That he was only 2-0 and had nothing to do with that win. Im like hold on here. He had a lot to do with getting that team ready to not only play but to win. But I see discussion is not allowed - Ignorance once again prevails because you cannot make a valid discussion on the subject and logic given...I'm all for discussion. But when you say ITS MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY and even INSULT ME FOR KNOWING WHAT I KNOW.

just do me a big favor. Don't fix any of my opinions. If I stated an incorrect fact please advise me and go ahead and fix it. But you MADE UP YOUR OWN FACT...not me. Cause it indeed is Hoyer 3-0 as starter of the Browns. If you fix it at least give me your reasoning besides .25 played.

there is more to football than that.

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I'm saying he was a big part in us winning that game. It is no "COINCIDENCE" that our team played to win - played believing they would win the game.

You know... you're right. They did play to win in that game... once he went out. They were playing to lose while he was in there.... glad he fired them up by leaving the game!

He gets 3-0 on a technicality simply because the NFL is stupid in how they record that. Baseball at least realizes truth and gives the credit where it belongs.

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The team simply didn't believe in Weeden nor Campbell.

I know, that's why they totally folded when Weeden came in after playing SO stellar while Hoyer was in . MmmmmHmmmm. Yup.

Not to mention a QBs won loss record is pretty meaningless to me. It's not like baseball where the pitcher can shut down the other team or hockey where the goalie can play like a brick wall and shut out opponents.

Any way you cut it, unlike the others mentioned, a QB can't overcome poor play by the other members of the team.

Statistically, he was given that third win. Common sense and logical thinking say he got 2 wins.

The more you type the more you just show that you don't get it.

Weeden didn't prepare the team...that came a week later...and we saw the results then.

I'm saying that the Team practiced all week as if they were going to win and it was a short week. It was a continuation from the Bengal win.

I think Weeden even was quoted as saying that he came in and continued with the game plan set up for Hoyer. There was not much time to sulk after Hoyer left.

That came into effect from every game pretty much on. Again so your point is the NFL is stupid...not your concept. Oh n me I'm stupid to think that Hoyer had anything to do with getting that team that day ready to win. That we would have won it with Weeden there all week...as if we would have won the last two games with Weeden in there. After all it had nothing to do with Hoyer.

I have nothing to add. Enjoyed the one way discussion.

I'm sorry but if you're sticking up for Weeden, Brandon has made far more critical mistakes than any other player on this team. Yes, Greg dropped some catchable balls... yes, Davone Bess dropped some catchable balls and I won't disagree with it at all... but how many times was the ball even really catchable? How many times did Weeden throw a floater? How many times did Weeden just not even scan the field to find who was open and etc?

Fact is, when you're inconsistent on both side - then the boat sinks faster. However the biggest driver to the haul of the boat is bad qb play. Good, consistent qb play can get everyone on the same page and all cylinders firing. We've not had that... we've just simply not had that of the dozens and dozens of QBs that have came and gone...

JMO

Weeden was a bust, period, end of story. Hoyer still has a lot to prove before Pettine names him the starter.

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I'm sorry but if you're sticking up for Weeden

What? I don't know how you take that from my comment. I am saying a QBs win loss record is pretty meaningless compared to a pitcher in baseball or a goalie in hockey.

I find it foolish to be debating over a QB about if he had 2 wins or 3 wins. It's a useless number. Wins and losses in football is a team stat or a coach stat. Not a individual player stat.

I hope that doesn't sound like I am sticking up for Tim Couch.

Oh I thought you were directing your comment towards Purple's last comment about Weeden.

My bad totally read it wrong

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The more you type the more you just show that you don't get it.

Actually, this applies to you, not me.

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Weeden didn't prepare the team..

Neither did Hoyer. The coaches did.

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I'm saying that the Team practiced all week as if they were going to win and it was a short week. It was a continuation from the Bengal win.

Ahh, so they practice as if they were going to lose at other times? Dude, you are beyond the point of reaching here.

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Oh n me I'm stupid to think that Hoyer had anything to do with getting that team that day ready to win.

Glad you said it.

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There are NO QBs in this draft who are NFL ready...no Andrew Luck or RGIII caliber QBs in this draft. Manziel completed only two seasons in college while Bridgewater and Bortles are juniors coming out early.

I expect the Browns to sign a veteran QB (maybe Grossman) as well as draft a QB, with both competing with Hoyer for the starting job. But after the final pre season game, I would not be surprised if the QB depth chart had the rookie ranked as the #3 QB with the veteran ranked #2 and Hoyer the starter...barring injury.

jmo

Russell Wilson, was he "NFL ready" according to the draft pros?

Look, we DO NOT KNOW what these guys will be able to do. All we can do is project. Why should we categorically say that whoever we draft should sit for a year to "acclimate"? I say NO WAY! You only sit a QB if he isn't ready to play. Go ahead and argue that it is unlikely our drafted QB will be ready to play... fine.. but let's not advocate an approach where we just assume it and then don't even give the rookie a real shot.

IF our drafted rookie is better than Hoyer then he should start. I don't think he needs to be "head and shoulders" better either. Simply, whoever is better (regardless of by how much) should start. The best experience a QB gets is when he plays in REAL games so if he is ready then put him out there.

Some will argue that this could damage the frail emotional state of our rookie QB... if that is truly the case then HE WAS NOT READY and wouldn't have been able to beat out Hoyer in the first place.

The QB should earn his job. Period.

Yes, one of the biggest pros Wilson had going for him was that he was successful in a WCO in two different college programs.

The ONLY reason he fell as far as he did was because he was short.

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I think Weeden even was quoted as saying that he came in and continued with the game plan set up [by Norv Turner] for Hoyer. There was not much time to sulk after Hoyer left.

Ok, so far so good....

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Oh n me I'm stupid to think that Hoyer had anything to do with getting that team that day ready to win.

... and now the wheels come off.

Norv Turner set-up the game plan for Hoyer Tab. Hoyer did NOT set-up anything for himself or for the team.

I know what you are struggling trying to say but you aren't saying it very well. You're trying to say that the team simply didn't believe in Weeden and so they just "went through the motions" preparing for the game. They believed in Hoyer though so they practiced hard and really "tried" when he was the QB. While I think the team definitely "checked out" later in the year I completely disagree that they checked out during the first half of the season. Just don't buy it. The team was practicing and playing hard. Simply put... Weeden was terrible while Hoyer was average.

We beat Buffalo, by the way, because they were TERRIBLE. Their QB got hurt just like ours only their backup was worse than Weeden. Tuel was awful and actually threw a pick 6 interception! Our defense was great against the run and Tuel was a terrible QB so Buf couldn't move the ball on us. THAT'S how we won that game. I give the win to our defense more than anything else.

But it's just funny people wanting to give the win to Hoyer. I mean, really!?!? Here are our QB stats for that game:

Hoyer 2/4 for 25 yards
Weeden 13/24 for 197 yards and a TD

But ya, Hoyer won it lol. Weeden was awful as a QB overall but NOT in this game... he did "ok" but some peeps just can't give him anything. Whatever man... whatever.

So Weeden played 2 good games in his entire career, and you're upset no one giving him credit for that?

...ok...

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Yes, one of the biggest pros Wilson had going for him was that he was successful in a WCO in two different college programs.

The ONLY reason he fell as far as he did was because he was short.

... and because he was short he'd need time to try to acclimate to the NFL... learn how to find throwing lanes and such. No guarantee he'd even be able to acclimate... hence his fall in the draft. Well, he acclimated pretty fast which was my point.

No, I'm upset at people trying to give Hoyer credit for a win he didn't actually earn. I'm upset because people are trying to pump up Hoyer to be more than he actually has been for us. He did NOT win 3 games for us. This shouldn't even be debatable which I guess is why it's so upsetting to me. I mean.... COME ONE!

lol

I would think that the team would be deflated when Hoyer was hurt, more than anything else. Any lift they got from him starting would have been gone at that point. Several posters even spoke of how the team's body language changed when Hoyer was hurt.

I don't see how that win could be attributed to Hoyer, but, in the end, it's a really minor argument. Bottom line is that we only won 4 games last year, and we have a whole new front office and coaching staff this coming year.(and 2 of our QB from last year are gone as well) I se whether we "give" the win to Hoyer or Weeden to be as close to unimportant as is humanly possible.

Translation:

There is WAY too much time left before the draft.

I'm accepting of the fact that Hoyer may be the starter this year...

But I will say if we grab one of those 3 QBs at 4, they could easily beat him out...

Hoyer played acceptable being thrown in from the #3 spot, logic would tell me if you give him an entire TC with reps with the #1s, he should do better...

I am officially going on the record with a prediction:

If Hoyer gets the starting QB role, he will succeed and be our QB for the next 5 years. Why? Because I believe what I saw in Hoyer was the illusive "IT" factor. Only time and the starts will tell, but I think he has it.

Man what burr is up your saddle there???

Ahh, so they practice as if they were going to lose at other times?
See here is where you just are Angry Elf or Brownie

You know that is not what I said. Let me get this straight - and unlike you I'm not going to MAKE up a ridiculous synopsis like you did above.

Are you saying this game of Parity and built around a lot of emotions The execution of the game plan through preparation had nothing to do with the QB that it was the coaches. That if Weeden started those games or Campbell we would have won. With a straight face you didn't see a different intensity with the team during those games. Never to be seen again.

You never heard of the term COMFORT ZONE or LEVEL.

You never heard of the term the team plays how it practices.

You never hear of the use of the phrase...NOW HE HAS CONFIDENCE. or He played with confidence.

Or how bout this one I'm sure you never heard of. The team is good - "THEY JUST HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO WIN"

So again - I'm telling you the Earth is really Oval not flat.

These are all variables leading up to the game a YOUNG team like the Browns Built on and believed in Hoyer.

I do hope he Starts for us - I am curious on how good he is.

I have never said. HE IS THE GUY, draft another position by QB. I have stated that in my eyes he is a good BRIDGE QB - good enough to start while they develop and ready the Drafted Franchise QB.

Just cause I said he was 3-0 I am this LOVER OF HOYER and all these other choice insults laid upon ONE WHO DOESN'T HAVE THE SAME OPINION as you...and that is so NOT PPE...I am wondering if you have some latent beef with me or something. If so PM me.

I even explained my evolving consideration on Hoyer in that record.

I always would state. He played 2.25 games for us and we won the last with Weeden finishing up most of the game.

It was after a while and deep thought - you know what - the kid was 3-0 and there has to be more credit to the way the team play and MOST telling the way the team DID NOT PLAY after Hoyer was down for the season. Hey maybe he had more to do with that win that I originally thought.

You and others can have a different opinion...go right ahead but to DEMAND THAT I AM STUPID n the Most blatant Lover of Hoyer and some FANTASY Dreamer and blah blah blah...as your football argument btw.

I've heard the Uh-Uh argument and now the Pee Wee Herman - I know you are but what am I argument.

I've seen you make up stuff like me saying the team practice to lose. That actually might be the most football statement that you have said in your entire argument and we both know you were being sarcastic.

That is pretty much in the realm of the - They got to learn how to win. It starts in practice.

That is why Vers gets so upset when he sees a guy who drags his feet. This team has to learn how to win and it irks him so when he sees this.

Yes we all wish there was a larger data base. No I don't think Hoyer will be 16-0.

I do think he has to have something. Was it just a right place right time thing? Or is it the Homer in him and love for the Browns catches on with the rest of the young players??? They carried Weeden on their backs and played to WIN. Why did they not do that in just ONE of Weeden's starts?

Did you not see them get the life sucked out of them with every ill time INT or Fumble? Well if it can be sucked out...it can be Put in there too. Just one is more visible than the other.

I'm done. If you wish not to contemplate that I am not be just an idiot and trying to actually open a door of at least a thought process. Do what you must.

I'm done.

What I Saw, when Hoyer was at QB, was an ENTIRE TEAM that believed it could win. It reminded me of the Kardiac Kids days. Now, it is possible that this had nothing to do with Hoyer, it just happened to occur when he was in and ended after he went out.

But, when he was in, we were a better team all across the board. Maybe this can be sustained, maybe it can't. I for one am all for finding out.

It could be something as simple as self-confidence, coupled with a quick release and a few decent skills. That would make him the best QB we've had in over a decade. That may just be good enough, and then again it may not. If it's a choice between an unknown rookie and Hoyer, I take Hoyer all day every day.

As for the rookie winning the "camp battle", BeWe was clearly the best QB, in camp. Real games are a whole nother animal.

I'm a firm believer that if the team was up when Hoyer was playing, nothing would knock them down more than his injury.

I believe you have totally dismissed the opposition and the QB for Buff. The injury disaster that plagued the Bengals secondary.

There are other factors to consider when you look at things big picture. I believe our D holding our opponent to six points was huge too.

IMO, the picture you're painting is far too simplistic.

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The QB should earn his job. Period.

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I hope that doesn't sound like I am sticking up for Tim Couch.

Oh but it does and you are.

What I took from your comments is that it's a team sport so much more than those others. Like you said about baseball, a pitcher can single-handedly shut down the other teams offense. Or single-handedly allow them to knock the ball all over the house. There is no position in football like that. It takes a team. The win loss shouldn't go to one guy like it can in baseball. In football it's always a team win or loss.

What tabber is saying, and I agree, is that the team was uplifted by Hoyer's play in his two wins and they rode that into practice vs. the Bills. They were on a high and believed they could win. When Hoyer went down you could see the air let out of their tires but they quickly recovered and played well enough to win. Even with Weeden.

The next week with Weeden running practice the team was brought back down to earth. It wasn't the same as when Hoyer was in there. What was the same was the lack of believing they could win with Weeden.

IIRC even the players were publically coaching Weeden to just "trust what he sees" and to throw the ball and let the receivers make a play. They saw how Hoyer did it and wanted Weeden to play the same.

When Campbell was forced into action I think the team perked up simply because it wasn't Weeden. Then Campbell plays great vs. KC. Then he plays well again and we beat the Rats. Then Campbell came back down to his earth, lost his confidence and took the team down with him.

That's my story.

I agree with that. I like Hoyer and wouldn't mind if we just went with him if that is what the team decides to do.

I just got tired of seeing people bickering over who was credited with a win and seeing 900 word posts that for the most part aren't going to be read by most.

This isn't the place to be a blogger. Keep it short and sweet, like you did.

j/c:

I can't believe you guys are still arguing about who won the Buffalo game.

You might want to revisit it and look at what the Special teams did. You might want to look at the turnovers.

Hoyer didn't win that game. Weeden didn't win that game. The Special teams won that game and the defense got a huge pick 6.

Oh, and for those of you quotign 2-4 from Hoyer, did you happen to forget about the perfect pass to Gordon that would have went for an 80 yd. TD if Gordon didn't drop it?

I also see that YTown mentioned how banged up Cinci was against Hoyer. Well, Buffalo was the same way. Did we forget that or are we playing favorites?

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The QB should earn his job. Period.

+1

Who said otherwise...

Hoyer is now apparently the best QB, Head Coach, and Cheerleader we have ever had in cleveland.

"Hoyer prepared the team to win!"

im done with this discussion, things are getting ridiculous...

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The QB should earn his job. Period.

+1

When was the last time that honestly happened? Has it even since we got back?

Detmer was given the job.
Couch was given it.
Holcomb was given it after the 02 playoff game.
We signed Garcia and gave it to him.
Traded for Dilfer and gave it to him.
Frye took over for Dilfer and we gave it to him.
Romeo flipped a coin and picked Frye, then went to Anderson.
Anderson got the job to start the 08 season and then we moved to Brady.
Brady started the 09 season.
We signed Delhomme in 2010 and gave him the job.
Then gave the job to Colt in 2011.
Then drafted Weeden and gave him the job.

So yeah... We've always had a guy set to be the starter. And never really made him earn it...

Anderson and McCoy earned the job based on their play the previous season. Other than those two, you are right.

Although QB is the one position where if you are the clear cut starter then you usually don't have to worry about job security. Aaron Rodgers isn't going into next season thinking he has to beat out Matt Flynn.

I agree w/those two, but Holcomb beat Timid out. And I know for a fact that if Butch wouldn't have named him the starter, the players were ready to mutiny. The "gut feeling" thing was Butch protecting Timid. There was never a "gut feeling."

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Hoyer is now apparently the best QB, Head Coach, and Cheerleader we have ever had in cleveland.

"Hoyer prepared the team to win!"

im done with this discussion, things are getting ridiculous...

Who said that?

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I agree w/those two, but Holcomb beat Timid out.

Based on what, the one playoff game? Couch started 14 games that year to Kellys 3. If Holcomb doesn't throw for 400+ in Pitt does he ever start another NFL game?

Based on the regular season games that he starter the year before and the couple of years of performances in camps.

I really don't care if you believe that story or not, but at the time, I knew two players and one coach. It's not BS.

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I agree w/those two, but Holcomb beat Timid out. And I know for a fact that if Butch wouldn't have named him the starter, the players were ready to mutiny. The "gut feeling" thing was Butch protecting Timid. There was never a "gut feeling."

I agree...Holcomb beat out Timid....my coinage .

So it's ok to judge Kelly on 4 games, but not Hoyer on 3?

Not sure I am following? I said that the word "mutiny" was used if Kelly wasn't named the starter. That wasn't MY opinion. That was the opinion of the players and coaching staff and Butch had no choice. It was NOT a gut feeling. That is what I said.

Now, you can say that I am making that up. I get why you would not believe my story. No problem. I am just putting it out there for those who know me and especially for those who knew me at the time, as in regards as to how I reported things way before the media ever did.

Oh, and I haven't had any inside information for years.

I know one guy who does, though. It's GM. He doesn't divulge a lot and that is smart, but when he speaks of the Brown's plans, you should probably listen.

I'm not saying you're BSing. I've just never heard that before. And the idea that Coaches and players were all for Kelly after 4-5 games seems weird to me.

But thats just me. I never preferred either guy, as Holcomb was a career backup, and Couch was ruined by that time...

I'm all for hypotheticals, Browns fans live their lives on them. But that's one of those ones that's probably best left alone...

Again, I can understand why people will think that is BS. That's fine w/me. I get it.

I should have ignored that one post. I was just adding to it and didn't really think about he consequences.

Just remember, it was more than games. Practices were huge. One guy goofed off. The other did not.

Jc

What else would Hoyer say? Don't all injured players say they will be ready to play?

I feel kind of meh on him. He did some good things, sure. But seems he is fragile. He got injured running/falling out of bounds. Nobody even touched him.

Just clicking

Keep one thing in mind, if Tim Couch doesn't play as well as he did for the season, we don't even make the Playoffs. He's the reason we got there. Well, at least he was one of them.

I can't frickin' believe it's 2014 and people are still discussing Couch vs. Holcomb.

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[Hoyer] got injured running/falling out of bounds. Nobody even touched him.

Huh?

That is neither running/falling out of bounds nor not getting touched.

I've never understood how people can remember something completely different from the way it happened...

Kiko Alonso played great last year, he is also THE reason Hoyer got hurt.

Did he slide a bit awkwardly? Yeah, but you don't tear multiple ligaments JUST from tucking your leg under yourself wrong. Add another 200+ pound human landing on you is when stuff goes wrong..

lecharles bently tore his patella tendon on the first 11 on 11 drill of a camp, without being touched.

opening day for the angels this year, one of their coaches broke his leg by kneeling at homeplate...

of course the Holy Hoyer could not have possibly gotten injured from sliding the wrong way, though....

im not saying alonso had nothing to do with it, just pointing out more absurdities from the Hoyer wagon.

Right. You clearly don't have a biased opinion about Hoyer...

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I can't frickin' believe it's 2014 and people are still discussing Couch vs. Holcomb.

Don't shoot the messenger..

i like hoyer lol. i just dont blame a defender 100%, when it was the QB who who tucked his leg wrong, didnt slide when he should have, and when he did chooses to slide in a way that doesnt make it so the defense cant hit him.

to say it was alanso who caused the injury is silly. brb running in to a brick wall head first, then blaming the bricks for giving me a concussion......... makes sense.

Just one more second or two for him to get his leg in a better position and then it would have just been someone landing on him, instead of someone landing on him in an awkward position that caused him to tear his ACL.

The point where our season was like a #2 being flushed down the toilet and etc, right there in that pic...

You don't blame a defender... for hitting a sliding QB?

Ok.

I don't blame the defender for that injury.

While Hoyer probably gets his bell rung by the defender, the leg injury was all on Hoyer.

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Hoyer is now apparently the best QB, Head Coach, and Cheerleader we have ever had in cleveland.

"Hoyer prepared the team to win!"

im done with this discussion, things are getting ridiculous...

When you all are done with all the hyperbole, perhaps you can read/re-read ddubia's, which I happen to think is SPOT on.

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I don't blame the defender for that injury.

While Hoyer probably gets his bell rung by the defender, the leg injury was all on Hoyer.

again what was the penalty alonzo received for that hit?

ohh wait he didnt receive one, because the QB didnt simply slide how is is supposed to, and thus was eligible to get hit.

he pushed for the extra yards rather than simply getting down and protecting himself and living for another play. sorry but thats on hoyer.

I said before people can have a difference of opinion...I explained mine.

I'm still just getting the debate of:

pfft!
Uh-Uh
That's dumb, silly, can you believe he said that.

I put it all out there I stated how I to was it was 2-0 then 2.25 games then I started looking into it and how different the team was with the same coaches doing the game plan. Why did the team do so well...or so bad with the only variable as Hoyer. I stated maybe he should get more credit to the 3-0 then people are willing to get as in - Preparation and the mental aspect of the game.

I asked some simple questions I still don't see any responses except the above.

Says a lot about the self proclaimed experts of which you present yourself with knowledge about the game.

It is so ridiculous to not even discuss it?
If anyone who knows me if its not an OL man I don't "Love individual players"

Oh well - guess I got to dummy down my football.

Hey HOYER REAL GOOD no HAPPY FEET!

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Why did the team do so well...or so bad with the only variable as Hoyer. I stated maybe he should get more credit to the 3-0 then people are willing to get as in - Preparation and the mental aspect of the game.

yeah i just dont have the patience for arguing on the speculation that the back up QB "prepared" the team. To me thats ridiculous and an unsubstantiated claim.

Im not over here arguing "well we lost the rest of the games because its my believe that hoyer, after suffering an injury, decided to try his hands at being a masseur, and creeped out the rest of the team because he likely was massaging them during team meeting after that, and it just weirded out the chemistry of the team."

unless you can disprove that, it must be true.

is that an absurd way of making my point? sure, but my point remains. The hoyer camp wants to prop the guy up as if he was giving the team the game plan week 2 3 and 4. i dont buy that, theres nothign to suggest it, yet people spew it over and over, and unless i have a notarized statement from the coaching staff that he wasnt doing that-- you guys will pretend its factual.

Hoyer was the ONLY difference? Im sure the best WR in the NFL last year will have something to say about that.

Hoyer was dramatically more effective at Running the game plan, and the entire team knew it. He did not design it, but he implemented it much better.

Did he "prepare the team" in the sense of creating the offensive strategy? No. But in the sense of every player believing it could be done, YES, he DID "prepare the team to win".

IMO the entire team KNEW they had a chance to win with him in the game, but with BeWe, they were doomed unless a whole series of miracles happened.

I do not understand how anyone who watched the games could not see that.

Is he a future HOF'er? Probably not, but is there any doubt at all about the other QB's? Is BeWe or Jason Campbell a "probably not"? Or a "NWIH ! "?

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I can't frickin' believe it's 2014 and people are still discussing Couch vs. Holcomb.

Only because you can't accept that Couch was better.

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I do not understand how anyone who watched the games could not see that.

I think it was pretty clear cut. The offense before hand and thereafter Hoyer's presence was virtually a car running on four flat tires. You could read it in the eyes, body reactions and etc by the players both offensively and defensively. It's debatable what our record "could" have been if he hadn't got injured.

You said it well, if he a HOF? Probably not, but he can play good and consistently, why wouldn't anyone be happy with that? With the targets he has at his disposal, he doesn't have to be a HOF. He just has to be opposite of what Weeden is/was and etc.

and were back to discussing points that cannot be disproven because they are unsubstantiated...

sorry i just cannot subscribe to the team"believing they could win" because of brian hoyer. the dude came in as a career backup with what 3 games? We just traded away our "franchise RB," yet the team was all of a sudden uplifted by this dude and believed they could and would win.

he threw 3 INTs and 3 TDs in the first game. Without the help of some special teams long shot plays working out, we lose. yet all of a sudden the team is believing in him, and themselves, all because of his miraculous play...

why is it that the team played well because of hoyer, rather than hoyer played well because the team was playing well? Thats my problem with the wishy washy "he elevated the team" arguments. Give me some proof other than his mediocre play "uplifting everybody," and theres a discussion worth having. but if were in "even though i have nothign to support my argument, i believe this is the case."

hoyer played a mediocre at best game, against a beat up defense, and barely squeaked by with a win. The second game he played pretty well, again against a crap defense. This all happened right as gordon came back. he then proceeded to tear his acl by not sliding soon enough. 2 games, 2 crap defenses, mediocre stats but he did show poise when it counted and we pulled off 2 wins.

im not seeing how that is anything more spectacular than all of the other flash in the pan backups who flourished for a whopping 2 games while teams had no tape on them.

im not saying the guy can never be any good, im just saying its a bit delusional for people to act as if theres even a coin flip of a chance that he pans at as anything more than a backup who had a couple wins before getting knocked back out of the starter role. im not arguing he has no shot-- im arguing the notion he is solely responsible for uplifting a team and carrying them to 2 wins.

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You said it well, if he a HOF? Probably not, but he can play good and consistently, why wouldn't anyone be happy with that?

and here in lies my problem with the hoyer camp.

Two games is some how a large enough sample to say "he can play good consistently."

honestly, this is 98% of my problem here. the dude has freaking 192 pass attempts in this league. stop saying you know he can do anything consistently. if this logic were true, matt cassell would be a good QB.

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You said it well, if he a HOF? Probably not, but he can play good and consistently, why wouldn't anyone be happy with that?

and here in lies my problem with the hoyer camp.

Two games is some how a large enough sample to say "he can play good consistently."

honestly, this is 98% of my problem here. the dude has freaking 192 pass attempts in this league. stop saying you know he can do anything consistently. if this logic were true, matt cassell would be a good QB.

Well, he's played more games in the NFL than any soon-to-be-drafted rookie, right? Fact is it'll be a true unknown either way the pay is sliced. No one that I've seen is suggesting that by his two game start season, that he's the answer. Since my comment to one you quoted started with the theoretical talk about him being a HOF, I assumed the rest would have been interpreted as theoretical too. I've lobbied for Bridgewater and true competition in camp/practice before any starter is declared.

Facts are facts though, this team operated at it's peak when Brian was in there as opposed to when he wasn't.

My take on Hoyer:

Whatever the Browns brass choose to do at QB will be fine with me; they know what's best for the team waaaay more than I.

Having said that, I'm very interested in seeing Brian play again this year... precisely because of the small sample size.

Those wins we had with him under center:

maybe it was just dumb luck
maybe he did elevate the team with his presence
maybe it was the quality of opposition
maybe we won because teams didn't have much tape on him
maybe it was the coaching staff rallying the team after the TRich trade
maybe it was the team rallying to help its backup QB
maybe it was all, some, or none of the above.

My point: he's an intriguing figure because we saw so little of him last year. If he'd played out the season, there'd be much less speculation regarding his skill set.

As a fan, I want to see him play again, just to satisfy my curiosity. I remember seeing our O operate with much more crispness, pace and tempo with him in there. As a fan, I remember seeing 'bad plays' as minor setbacks, and not devastating 'game-enders.' I watched the next play with anticipation instead of a sense of dread. As a fan, I felt as though NO GAME was unwinnable. For those 3 games, the Browns looked like a legitimate NFL team. The clunky, lurching, out-of-sync O was much less visible. I 'lost that lovin' feeling' almost immediately after he went down.

These are the sentiments of a fan. I can't speak for the players on the team; I wasn't in the locker room to hear exactly how they felt about playing with any of our QB's. However- I'm pretty sure I saw a total 'personality shift' in the Browns after that Buffalo game... and it wasn't for the better. It really did appear to me that the players felt the same as this fan.*

If the FO chooses to place someone else under C, it won't kill me. I'm not married to the guy. I will, however have a hard time shaking that "what if?" feeling, simply because I was teased so well last year.

I'm looking forward to seeing if he can earn the starting spot this Summer. If so, I'll have my microscope out when the games begin in earnest.

Like I said: intriguing character/situation.

.02

*If the players really DID suffer the same sense of deflation I did, that would imply a lack of mental/professional 'toughness,' as some in here have mentioned. If so, that needs to stop immediately. A team that quits on itself deserves neither mercy from other teams nor support from fans.

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Hoyer was dramatically more effective at Running the game plan, and the entire team knew it. He did not design it, but he implemented it much better.

Nelson...what you, EO and others are trying to explain is the "it" thing. It really is hard to explain and it's obviously just as hard for some to understand what the "it" thing is.

During those two full games when Hoyer started, I saw "it" and felt "it". I'm not even going to try to explain the "it thing" to others, so don't even ask. I do understand what EO and Nelson are attempting to explain.

Again, it is the hardest damn thing to define or explain...it's a sense, a feeling, an emotion some feel when they watched Hoyer play. Last season, when Hoyer started, the offense just seemed to click.

I'm hoping that Hoyer can repeat the type of performance he briefly turned in last season.

"well we lost the rest of the games because its my believe that hoyer, after suffering an injury, decided to try his hands at being a masseur, and creeped out the rest of the team because he likely was massaging them during team meeting after that, and it just weirded out the chemistry of the team."
unless you can disprove that, it must be true.

Thank you for the insults and the total none football discussion.

You showed me. Then you all got the balls to state my discussion as absurd.

There is one FACTION here that are just POSTING and stating that it MUST BE TRUE. that would be you and the other merry men...My goodness where did I say its my way or the highway???

I'm done with the Mylans....

The problem with the "It" thing is... Colt McCoy had the "It" thing for a couple games too...

I think it comes down to the draft honestly. Depending on which QB we come away with will determine if Hoyer is the starter or not.

Hopefully not in a "give him the job" type of way either, if Russel Wislon can earn the job as a 3rd round pick over a high priced FA... Then dangit give everyone a shot...

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yeah i just dont have the patience for arguing on the speculation that the back up QB "prepared" the team. To me thats ridiculous and an unsubstantiated claim.

What do you claim the QB does, any QB, during the week when they're preparing for and practicing the game plan?

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yeah i just dont have the patience for arguing on the speculation that the back up QB "prepared" the team. To me thats ridiculous and an unsubstantiated claim.

What do you claim the QB does, any QB, during the week when they're preparing for and practicing the game plan?

I assume it has something to do with whipped cream bikinis..

Besides that.

The QB prepares to do "his job" as is laid out and schemed by the coaching staff.

The coaches do the coaching, preparing and game planning. The players, under the coaching staffs guidance, prepare to do their individual jobs.

j/c

I'll try this again because I really think unless we can quantify what our position is we will all just keep going back and forth trying to defend adjectives.

IF you have been involved in this Hoyer debate then have some balls and respond to this question:

What % chance does Hoyer have of becoming "the guy" for us? This means he's our starting QB for the foreseeable future and not just a transition QB until our rookie gets up to speed.

I'll go first (again). I put his odds at 20%.

Now you can see by the odds I'm using that I think Hoyer has a real shot to be our guy... it's just a long-shot. I hope he can pull it off. That would be awesome.

What do you think?

Uh.. 50/50? He either does... or doesn't...

I'm not really sure waht "20% chance" of being the guy even means...

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Uh.. 50/50? He either does... or doesn't...

I'm not really sure waht "20% chance" of being the guy even means...

Seriously? It's not 50/50... this isn't a coin flip lol. What chance is there that YOU will become the starting QB of the Browns? Ya, it's not 50/50... it's zero. I'm not sure why assigning probability or odds is that difficult. Vegas does it all the time.

Don't worry Ddubbia don't bother but TY...the Game preparing experts will not bend an ounce...It sort of funny on all the quotes on who does what...after all we are talking about having experience on this matter from High school.

What is funny is that I'll be accused of being condescending and Willing my opinion on people as it has been inferred all over this thread. Yet there is one faction in this cough:: Cough:: discussion that refuses to acknowledge a possible opposite side to their opinion.

Find The Winning Edge - now if you read that book by Bill Walsh and it definitely advises the opposite of what I think happened at least to some degree to give Hoyer SOME CREDIT for the win. I will bow down. But I read topped sentences saying its absurd to imply what I did. I have now idea what everyone is basing it on. ???
I'm done with this thread...for the 3rd or 4th time...lol

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Uh.. 50/50? He either does... or doesn't...

I'm not really sure waht "20% chance" of being the guy even means...

Seriously? It's not 50/50... this isn't a coin flip lol. What chance is there that YOU will become the starting QB of the Browns? Ya, it's not 50/50... it's zero. I'm not sure why assigning probability or odds is that difficult. Vegas does it all the time.

So what are Vegas' odds on Hoyer becoming "The Guy"?

There is a huge difference between "The Guy" and good staring quarterback, Hoyer has yet to achieve either.

So the QB makes the play book? He decides what the scheme is going to be?

It's not like they tell the QB, "Okay, here's the play book. You work the guys out, tell them what to do, what they're doing wrong and critique them. We're going to take the day off and play golf."

The coaches coach and the players play. Hoyer hadn't started a game for the Browns. He was busy focusing on doing his job, not coaching or doing the game planning.

If the QB is the one preparing the team, why even bother having coaches except to pick the starting QB on O and coach the D? Or is there a D player that does the coaches job too?

j/c

I totally get where Tab and others are coming from. They just aren't saying it well. And I do agree with some of it. I think Hoyer has "it" as well. I've always thought that. Love the kid and he did look the part when he got his shot. The interviews of players once Hoyer came in were telling. This is why I think there is around a 20% chance he can be our franchise QB for the next few years.

BUT

None of that directly "won" the BUF game. Just can't give Hoyer credit for a game where he went 2/4 for 25 yards... barely played. Just can't do it and can't wrap my head around anyone trying to do it. Seems like an attempt to pump up Hoyer artificially and to be honest... no one needs to do that! Let's call it what it is.

Hoyer has "it" but avg QB skills. He has a shot at being our guy and we'd ALL love that to be the case BUT it's a long-shot.

Hoping for the best but not going to be delusional about it. I've seen this story play out way too often and it has yet to end well.

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Uh.. 50/50? He either does... or doesn't...

I'm not really sure waht "20% chance" of being the guy even means...

Seriously? It's not 50/50... this isn't a coin flip lol. What chance is there that YOU will become the starting QB of the Browns? Ya, it's not 50/50... it's zero. I'm not sure why assigning probability or odds is that difficult. Vegas does it all the time.

You ask a question and when you don't get an answer you like, you laugh...LOL that's a good one.

There isn't anything wrong with calling it a Pass/Fail kinda thing..

Myself, I have no idea how to come up with Odds in any meaningful way, so here's my guess..

50% chance of being reasonably successful.

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Uh.. 50/50? He either does... or doesn't...

I'm not really sure waht "20% chance" of being the guy even means...

Seriously? It's not 50/50... this isn't a coin flip lol. What chance is there that YOU will become the starting QB of the Browns? Ya, it's not 50/50... it's zero. I'm not sure why assigning probability or odds is that difficult. Vegas does it all the time.

You ask a question and when you don't get an answer you like, you laugh...LOL that's a good one.

There isn't anything wrong with calling it a Pass/Fail kinda thing..

Myself, I have no idea how to come up with Odds in any meaningful way, so here's my guess..

50% chance of being reasonably successful.

Maybe I misread his response but I don't think he was saying there was a 50% chance. I think he was saying either he makes it or he doesn't so by definition it's a 50/50 shot. That is just wrong and leads me to believe he doesn't understand the concept of probabilities at all.

Saying there's a 50% chance of success is a perfectly reasonable response... that wasn't his response though. Not how I read it. If so, why question what my 20% chance even meant?

So the QB makes the play book? He decides what the scheme is going to be?

Why do you all almost to a man come up with the Ridiculous statements and apply that to my thought process.

Shows me you don't really have a leg to stand on.

But here I'll help. "Execution" you missing that part of what I'm saying. Where remotely do I imply he makes the play book...where? Where do I state the he decides on what the scheme is going to be?
Do you really wish for me to explain this? Again its putting the players of the team in the right place...No do it that way. No the timing of that route its better if you simulate an FADE route before you break in on your slant. Little nuances like that to prepare the team to EXECUTE THE FREAKING GAME PLAN. and I just made one reference of HOW the QB works in preparation There are 1,000 more.

But you all know more so please don't educate yourselfs and just continue to make up BS statements like the above and glom it as that is what I'm saying. I do speak english and I have spelled some of the stuff out. How you all come up with this junk is amazing.

Now I'll pull an Obama....I'm really, really done with this thread - don't make me mad...lol

Chow

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Uh.. 50/50? He either does... or doesn't...

I'm not really sure waht "20% chance" of being the guy even means...

Seriously? It's not 50/50... this isn't a coin flip lol. What chance is there that YOU will become the starting QB of the Browns? Ya, it's not 50/50... it's zero. I'm not sure why assigning probability or odds is that difficult. Vegas does it all the time.

You ask a question and when you don't get an answer you like, you laugh...LOL that's a good one.

There isn't anything wrong with calling it a Pass/Fail kinda thing..

Myself, I have no idea how to come up with Odds in any meaningful way, so here's my guess..

50% chance of being reasonably successful.

Maybe I misread his response but I don't think he was saying there was a 50% chance. I think he was saying either he makes it or he doesn't so by definition it's a 50/50 shot. That is just wrong and leads me to believe he doesn't understand the concept of probabilities at all.

Saying there's a 50% chance of success is a perfectly reasonable response... that wasn't his response though. Not how I read it. If so, why question what my 20% chance even meant?

Word games.. he's saying the same thing as me. But my comments are ok, his aren't.. OK

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IF you have been involved in this Hoyer debate then have some balls and respond to this question:

What % chance does Hoyer have of becoming "the guy" for us? This means he's our starting QB for the foreseeable future and not just a transition QB until our rookie gets up to speed.

I'll give him about the same chance that you do. Maybe 20%.

The Browns are looking for a franchise QB and it likely doesn't include an older, career backup who has less than a half-season of experience.

But that hasn't been the topic of discussion. At least not mine. My claim is that he elevated the play of the team due to his confidence, desire to win and play on the field.

Now I'll ask you a few questions, you don't have to answer:

• Are you going to say that during his first two games you didn't see a Browns team who was looking like they were coming together?

• Can you admit that you were hoping for more of the same in his second start and you got it as the Browns won again?

• Can you also admit that the team looked exciting and you felt like they may be on a roll?

• Can you further admit that you were looking forward to that Bills game because for once in so many years the games were exciting and you were anxious to see if we could keep it up?

• Can you admit that you went into the Bills game with great hopes and then felt the air go out of your balloon when Hoyer got injured because you knew in your heart that we were headed for more of the same 'ol, same 'ol from Weeden?

That's what I'm talking about. We had a short run of two games in that for once we looked like a team on the rise. It carried over to the next game but was foiled by Hoyer's injury. Sure, we won that Bills game. But what confidence did you have after the injury that we would return to that "team on the rise" with Weeden?

We got a teaser from Campbell and should have expected that. He had two really good games, won the second one, and then returned to his career average of 1 TD per game and overall lackluster play.

Weeden and Campbell both lacked an ability to see the field and play with passion. Hoyer had both of those things in spades. That's what makes him so much better than either of the other two. I don't think it's a long stretch to believe he'll still play with passion and learn even better to make better mental decisions.

But franchise QB for the Browns? No. He will make what eotab has been calling a good "Bridge QB". Someone who has enough brains and passion to hold the position until a rookie QB is ready to start.

That may be immediately. But if not, it's good to know that we aren't depending upon a guy the likes of Weeden, or Delhomme or Wallace or Campbell or Fry or Quinn or Dilfer to flounder while we're waiting for the rookie to prepare.

Hoyer at least shows promise. If we choose a franchise QB at #4 we won't need Hoyer to be the guy for long. But he's far more acceptable than any of those guys on that list.

That's what I think.

I'm not OK?

Who knew..

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The QB prepares to do "his job" as is laid out and schemed by the coaching staff.

The coaches do the coaching, preparing and game planning. The players, under the coaching staffs guidance, prepare to do their individual jobs.

• And they do this apart and separate from the rest of the team?

• They don't interact with the rest of the offense helping them understand their responsibilities in practice the way they guide them to their correct positions on the field during the games?

• The QB doesn't help gain confidence between himself and his receivers, OL, TE's and RB's?

• The QB doesn't help develop camaraderie and consistency through practice as well as through the games?

• The QB doesn't gain the confidence from his offense in the way he displays his understanding of the offense during practice? (Think Weeden ever accomplished this?)

So the QB does "his job" in a manner that doesn't influence the rest of the team during practice.

Damn Pit, what you describe doesn't even sound like a team. It sounds like a foursome of golfers.

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Don't worry Ddubbia don't bother but TY...the Game preparing experts will not bend an ounce..

It's a classic example of some folks describing something from the viewpoint of the way they think it is or the way they think it should be, not from any experience in a team situation.

They don't even realize it or they'd be more susceptible to a differing viewpoint.

The point I'm debating, which maybe I didn't make clear, was the third game where Hoyer only threw 2/4 and we were behind when he was injured.

My point is that if anything deflated the team, it was his injury. I, in no way, believe Hoyer practicing with the team the prior week had anything to do with them going on to win that game.

IF Hoyer taught them so much, that trend would have continued. I don't but into how he helped in the "nuances" of the game which helped so much one week, then the team went on to forget everything that worked the weeks prior.

I also feel people dismiss the competition we faced and the injuries in the Bengals secondary which I believe were a part of the success we saw with Hoyer.

I don't dismiss that Hoyer was much better at his decision making, getting rid of the ball quicker and played at an average NFL QB level. Something we hadn't seen for a very long time.

I just feel people are only looking at one side of things and not taking everything into account in some of their evaluations.

I do believe that after watching such poor QB play for so long, people's opinions have been overinflated.

And I have no love for Weeden, but the fact remains he is the one who gave a performance just well enough to come from behind and win that third game.

It just makes no sense to me to claim Hoyer is the one who built the team up and inspired them on one hand, then claim that after he got hurt, he somehow influenced the team to play better for that one game alone, then forget everything by the next game.

To me, that's like trying to have your cake and eat it too.

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• And they do this apart and separate from the rest of the team?

No, it's done as a team.

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• They don't interact with the rest of the offense helping them understand their responsibilities in practice the way they guide them to their correct positions on the field during the games?

Yes they do. The problem is, that a guy with little starting experience who didn't even join the team until very late in the process, wouldn't in my estimation know enough or have enough credibility within the team to do this.

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• The QB doesn't help gain confidence between himself and his receivers, OL, TE's and RB's?

Over time, yes. But to believe that happened with a QB who had been there for a very short time, was still learning the system himself and had very little credentials rings a little hollow.

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• The QB doesn't help develop camaraderie and consistency through practice as well as through the games?

The key word in your above comment I believe to be "develop". Which once again takes time. Development is not an instant thing.

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• The QB doesn't gain the confidence from his offense in the way he displays his understanding of the offense during practice? (Think Weeden ever accomplished this?)

I don't believe the newest face in the line up did this either. What I think did happen, was the players saw something a little better with Hoyer in practices and fed off of it. Not so much Hoyer himself, but the "anything is better than Weeden" mentality.

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So the QB does "his job" in a manner that doesn't influence the rest of the team during practice.

Damn Pit, what you describe doesn't even sound like a team. It sounds like a foursome of golfers.

Once again, I believe people simply dismiss the fact that Hoyer was "the new kid on the block". That he himself was in part learning the system. As a matter of fact, He was so far behind, that he was just moved up to start over Campbell, who up to that point was the 2nd string QB.

So Hoyer had just learned the system himself. I do believe that he had shown enough in practice to give the team some confidence to play better. But I don't believe he knew the system so well he could critique others and be some on the field leader in that department during practices. The calendar and timeline, IMO, simply didn't allow for that to happen.

Completely disagree but you're clearly dug into this position so moving on...

My final point would be I guess..

Besides the draft, where we will likely get a QB who may sit or be given a chance to start...

Who out there this offseason could we have gotten that was equal to or better than the chance Hoyer gives us, without giving up assets?

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I can't frickin' believe it's 2014 and people are still discussing Couch vs. Holcomb.

Only because you can't accept that Couch was better.

LOL....I am a sucker for Couch stuff.....ok,,,,I refrain, he is long gone, but he wasn't better.

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The problem is, that a guy with little starting experience who didn't even join the team until very late in the process, wouldn't in my estimation know enough or have enough credibility within the team to do this.

One could earn credibility in one day based on his play. The next day and the next could solidify it.

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a QB who had been there for a very short time, was still learning the system himself and had very little credentials rings a little hollow.

He was here all though training camp. Had learned how to study as a QB from one of the best. Good play over rides credentials every time.

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...the players saw something a little better with Hoyer in practices and fed off of it. Not so much Hoyer himself, but the "anything is better than Weeden" mentality.

I believe the first sentence. I think Campbell fit the second one.

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He was so far behind, that he was just moved up to start over Campbell, who up to that point was the 2nd string QB.

After he leapfrogged Campbell to start a game I instantly figured Campbell got the #2 spot based on his experience and credentials, not necessarily that he was better than Hoyer. The staff probably thought it would be like dissing Campbell to slot him at #3. But in their minds they thought him as #3 witnessed by the way they chose to not concern themselves with the perception of dissing him but instead played the better player.

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I do believe that he had shown enough in practice to give the team some confidence to play better.

My point all along.

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But I don't believe he knew the system so well he could critique others and be some on the field leader in that department during practices. The calendar and timeline, IMO, simply didn't allow for that to happen.

The QB had better know the system so well that he could do that. It's his job to understand the system better than the skill players and to get them into position as needed. If you don't know the system better than your skill players you bomb ... and we've seen it many times.

honestly i cant give a %.

my entire argument isnt to say hoyer sucks, or he cant improve or continue to show some success with the browns.

my argument, from the beginning, is that there hasnt been a large enough sample size in order to project something like that. Sorry if that seems like a cop out, but i just think its naive to try and judge a football player based on two games.

when campbell came in, for his 1st two games here, he looked GREAT. way better than hoyer did. But i knew, based off of him having a large enough sample size, that his success those 1st two games probably wouldnt be the norm. Because of his history, i felt i could project he wouldnt carry on with that same success. But just because a guy gets injured before putting in a large enough body of work to actually formulate an educated opinion-- doesnt mean he should get the optimistic projection that after his ACL surgery he will coem abck and play as well as he did for a slip second in history where he played 2 games.

so yeah, i think id be a hypocrite if i projected him based off of what i say is too little to judge some one on. i do hope he heals up and competes at a high level though. im rooting for the kid, and i hope he can hold the rookie to the bench for a season to let him learn-- not because the rookie is struggling, but because i want him to play well.

again, i have nothing against hoyer.

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Who out there this offseason could we have gotten that was equal to or better than the chance Hoyer gives us, without giving up assets?

No one.

We have, in Hoyer, a guy who can come in and win a game or 2, even if he never becomes anything else. He learns the offense quickly, and does things correctly. He is not the most physically talented kid, but he does have the mental side down.

I do worry that his physical limitations will hold him back ..... but what if they don't? What if the offense is tailored to his abilities, like last year's was?

He might be a capable starter, and that's pretty good for a returning starter in this town.

We should, and absolutely must, draft a QB high in this draft. Let Hoyer and the rookie fight it out, and may the best man win.

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honestly i cant give a %.

The reason I offered up a % was based on my belief that the Browns are in hot pursuit of a franchise QB in the draft not by how well I think Hoyer will or will not play.

If the Browns are hot on a franchise QB from the draft, then Hoyer has a very small chance of being the starter long term as the franchise QB.

Sure, anything can happen, but it's most likely Hoyer will start until the rookie is ready and that's about it.

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... it's most likely Hoyer will start until the rookie is ready and that's about it.

You would have to believe that is the plan, unless Hoyer plays absolutely "lights out", or in case of injury...

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Completely disagree but you're clearly dug into this position so moving on...

Then we agree to disagree as you are clearly dug into YOUR position.

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honestly i cant give a %.

The reason I offered up a % was based on my belief that the Browns are in hot pursuit of a franchise QB in the draft not by how well I think Hoyer will or will not play.

If the Browns are hot on a franchise QB from the draft, then Hoyer has a very small chance of being the starter long term as the franchise QB.

Sure, anything can happen, but it's most likely Hoyer will start until the rookie is ready and that's about it.

Ohh i'd say i believe we have a 95% chance of taking a QB in the 1st two rounds.

im not confident hoyer would beat out a rookie at camp though, but i mean im comparing an unknown, to a highly coveted unknown (in the rook).

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I'll go first (again). I put his odds at 20%.

Now you can see by the odds I'm using that I think Hoyer has a real shot to be our guy... it's just a long-shot. I hope he can pull it off. That would be awesome.

What do you think?

I find it funny that alot on here can say that BH is just a back-up or maybe he can come in and win a few games but is not a long term option and at the same time berate any of those who say he brings a much needed spark and looks to be our QB, by turning around and saying he can't be as good as we say he is, because the sample size is to small

You can't have it both ways. He will either be what we need or he won't. If we can't judge him by how good he appears to be because of the small sample size, then we can't judge him how bad he might be because of the samething. No?

Im still a Frye guy!

We'll find out soon enough

the issue that many of us (at least me, but others have noted it so I'm throwing out the big grouping) have with Brian Hoyer is simply we do not feel comfortable with him being the only option on the roster because of that small sample size.

if we end up drafting Jimmy-G in round2 and letting him sit/learn behind Hoyer for 2014 (and maybe draft Connor Shaw later too), then I'm completely okay with that approach. Or if we draft Teddy Bridgewater at #4 and let the two of them compete for the starting job, then I'm okay with that too.

the only thing that would have worried me is if they signed Rex Grossman and kept Campbell (or signed another obviously backup QB) and just handed Hoyer the starting job with no other potential long-term option. that is all.

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Completely disagree but you're clearly dug into this position so moving on...

Then we agree to disagree as you are clearly dug into YOUR position.

Please stop trolling.

Thanks

I understand, it just kinda gets to me when some keep harping on how he aint it and at the same time saying the sample size is to small to tell. Like I said you can't have it both ways. I agree, I think the more QB's we have in camp the better, may the best man win.

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I understand, it just kinda gets to me when some keep harping on how he aint it and at the same time saying the sample size is to small to tell. Like I said you can't have it both ways. I agree, I think the more QB's we have in camp the better, may the best man win.

I don't see anyone going on about "He's not it". I do see many, including myself, saying that it's not a conclusion you can jump to that he is it. The sample size is too small to really have a valid opinion either way.

And I believe if people were thinking from an objective viewpoint, not a Browns fan viewpoint, they could see that while Hoyer won those two complete games, he didn't light it up. He played well enough to win. And from what the players saw in practice, they believed he could play well enough to win.

I also believe people dismiss the level of competition and a decimated Bengal secondary. That's not saying Hoyer "Can't be it".

I could make a very long list of QB's that were back-ups, that when called upon had great success. But it was short lived. Holcomb, Matt Cassel, Matt Flynn. They are great back-ups, but when called upon to start have a limited shelf life.

Now this sounds like I'm trying to dismiss Hoyer, but I'm not. I'm simply saying there is a lot more to the situation than many seem to be willing to admit to. There are a lot more to take into consideration than what is seen on the surface.

Tom Brady was an exception to the rule, not the rule itself. And while that is a possibility, the likelihood is slim. I'm not saying Hoyer can't be the answer. I'm simply trying to be objective and look at things big picture rather than through a microscope.

JMHO

All I can say is that Hoyer wasn't signed until May 16th and was named the starter on Sept. 18th. In my estimation that's simply not enough time to learn your job and everyone elses job to critique your team mates. On this much we disagree.

Otherwise I do believe we are pretty much on the same page. I do believe when your team has had Brandon Weeden as their QB, seeing an improvement at the QB position in practice would give you more hope and cause you to elevate your game.

I do believe that's entirely two different issues but the end result is the same.

Our bad Passing game has been a 2-headed monster though...

Hoyer elevated the play of Cameron, OGB, and Gordon...

What we're used to seeing is a parade of garbage getting wounded ducks OR errant bullets floated or fired at them over and over again.

I feel like its a chicken or egg thing for most of our guys...Are the QBs bad, or are the WRs bad...obviously both. But who has ruined us worse.

Was Colt bad? or were the guys never open and with bad hands? Was Delhomme horrible or did he have no one open to throw to...Weeden was bad, cuz he had a good Gordon and was horrible still. Weeden and Campbell werent good...you can say that because they both had Cameron and Gordon to throw to and couldnt make heads or tails of anything...Hoyer had 2 starts, 2 Ws and a great gameplan got us a 3rd W that he was involved in.

Is it just that he's better than the parade of crap? Sure...but the kid elevated the play of his guys, got Ws, and had a team believing and playing confident.

There's no reason to not give him a shot...and theres no reason to not draft a QB that could potentially supplant him.

Just for the record on the other end of the spectrum I don't see many claiming he is the guy...just that he'll will or should get the shot to start. I thought it was obvious that he is coming into this as the #1...Whether or not somebody beats him out still would have to be seen.

On other stuff...I understand you guys know a lot more about football than I and it is not up for discussion so I bow out. Just to let you know - EVERYONE was knew to the offense regardless if you joined the team in MAY or January.

jmho

I don't know that Hoyer "elevated" Gordon's play. Gordon's best stretch was a 4 game set where he had 36 catches for 774 yards and 5TD. Those games were QB'd by Campbell and Weeden.

I worry that Gordon and Hoyer may not be a great match as far as strengths are concerned. While I do thin that Gordon can play a short game, and do so effectively, asking him to do so almost exclusively is almost like having a Ferrari and driving it only in a 25 MPH zone. I don't know if Hoyer is suited to give Gordon 2-3 (or even more) deep opportunities per week that really open things up across the board for all of our receivers.

I do think that Hoyer's abilities do help enhance the opportunities for a RB and TE in the passing game. He loves to throw short and quick. There are a lot of routes for TE and RB that play into that aspect of the game. Gordon, however ......? I think that he'll get his no matter what .... but that he does best when he gets a few deep opportunities per game .... and I question whether Hoyer is the guy to give him those opportunities.

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Just for the record on the other end of the spectrum I don't see many claiming he is the guy...just that he'll will or should get the shot to start. I thought it was obvious that he is coming into this as the #1...Whether or not somebody beats him out still would have to be seen.

On other stuff...I understand you guys know a lot more about football than I and it is not up for discussion so I bow out. Just to let you know - EVERYONE was knew to the offense regardless if you joined the team in MAY or January.

jmho

I for one disagree completely. You know a TON about football and I've learned quite a bit from reading your posts over the years. Seriously. Doesn't mean I won't disagree from time to time. And this issue is really not an "issue" anyways. Most of us are just killing time until the draft.

As you said, I don't think anyone is saying Hoyer for sure will succeed or fail. ALL of us are just trying to project based on what we've seen. Some are more pessimistic while others are more optimistic. The truth is that for a LONG time the pessimistic peeps have been almost always right but that can't last forever so here is to hope.

Still not giving Hoyer credit for beating BUF though lol. Again, really not a big deal to most people either way because it won't change how Hoyer will do this year AT ALL. Yes it upsets me that peeps try to say Hoyer is 3-0 but on a scale of 1-10 it's like a 2.... just killing time till the draft.

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On other stuff...I understand you guys know a lot more about football than I and it is not up for discussion so I bow out. Just to let you know - EVERYONE was knew to the offense regardless if you joined the team in MAY or January.

jmho

No need to be condescending Tab. This has nothing to do with "who knows more". Unless you or I were actually at the practice facility, neither of us knows for sure.

It's simply a differing in opinions. Not so much a right or wrong unless you have some first hand evidence about this I'm unaware of? As I stated, I do believe seeing a more competent QB at practice helped elevate others. So to some degree we do agree. No need to feel butt hurt because I don't walk lock step in line with your opinion.

And I have not questioned you in terms of having football knowledge nor indicated anywhere that I know more than you do. So I have no idea where this is coming from.

I do agree that as of this moment Hoyer is the #1 QB on the roster. And until such time as someone beats him out for the position he will remain such. I do however believe in open competition at every position every training camp and pre season. So to me, time will tell if he remains our #1 QB after all is said and done. But I do agree that at this time, it's his job to lose.

Hoyer has shown me more in just 3 games than any Browns QB has since Kosar.
The problem is he's only played the 3 games for the Browns.
I want to see more of him but the Browns have to bring in some legit competition at QB as well.
Hoyer is the wild card to the Browns having a winning season. If he can pick up where he left off we will be better off than if we have to force feed a rookie QB. We have seen how that has paid off in the past.

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Hoyer has shown me more in just 3 games than any Browns QB has since Kosar.

That's actually not saying very much.

j/c:

Man, this thread has evolved into complete stupidity.

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Hoyer has shown me more in just 3 games than any Browns QB has since Kosar.

yeah? what were some of his highlight plays in game 3 that made him show more than any QB since kosar. He had 2 completions............................................................

I like Hoyer,and hope he can come back and perform well.He didn't play much,and his skill set isn't off the charts,but he has that "it" factor that you need from winning QBs.Drafting a franchise QB and having Hoyer as well,would be a breath of fresh air for a change.

ball placement ball placement ball placement...He puts it where it needs to go to make good plays better...

That scramble that he had when he got hurt was an awesome play too...He just shows good feel for the pocket, the pass rush and the game...and he places the ball well.

It was different than what we've seen in the past in good games. Its not that he just had some good games...its that he played the position the way its supposed to be played. It wasnt great plays by the WRs or the QB...it was just solid smart football.

I agree with KingSteve and would also like to add that when BH was in those 3 games the team looked entirely different than when BW or JC was in.It's not just the physical things you saw it was the leadership qualties and how te rest of the team responded.

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Hoyer has shown me more in just 3 games than any Browns QB has since Kosar.

yeah? what were some of his highlight plays in game 3 that made him show more than any QB since kosar. He had 2 completions............................................................

If you ignore the slant he puts PERFECTLY on Gordons hands... that's dropped, which goes for 20+ yards if not a TD...

No need to be condescending Tab.

And there it is...I am the one who is saying discuss it - you and others mocked me that its not even on the table...then you got the balls to say I'm condescending. I don't get you guys sometime.

Vers I see through n read your tit for tats - you can sit through mine...lol

Agree.That team looked completely different when Hoyer came in.They had the look of winners,that we can do this and bring it on kind of attitude.He just has that quality,that stats can't measure...the "it" factor.

The team definitley looked all together different when Hoyer came in there is no question about that. He had the team playing at a higher level and anyone who is a Browns fan has to relize that. It was great the difference was like Night and Day!! So I say they better start the kid and let's at least see where hes at. Oh yeah and he was the under study to Brady for a few years sitting in all those meetings with Belichick and Brady have got to be worth something and we can reap the benefits of all he's learned. I know we will draft a qb which is great and if the rookie beats him out so be it but I for one would love to see if he can pick up where he left off. Just someone please teach him to slide.

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Hoyer has shown me more in just 3 games than any Browns QB has since Kosar.

yeah? what were some of his highlight plays in game 3 that made him show more than any QB since kosar. He had 2 completions............................................................

He made the highlight plays in his first two game,, but you knew that.

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Agree.That team looked completely different when Hoyer came in.They had the look of winners,that we can do this and bring it on kind of attitude.He just has that quality,that stats can't measure...the "it" factor.

Exactly my point.While I do need to see a lot more from him and he needs to stay healthy but he definitely energized the team.

j/c

Cleveland Browns' Brian Hoyer takes reps, moves well on surgically-repaired knee during minicamp

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Browns quarterback Brian Hoyer took part in drills on the opening day of minicamp Tuesday and looked quick and strong despite undergoing surgery to repair a torn right anterior cruciate in October.

Hoyer's footwork on three- and five-step drops looked tremendous, and no one would've ever known he had undergone major reconstructive surgery just over six months ago had it not been for the brace on his right knee.

In the 15 minutes or so of practice open to the media, Hoyer moved briskly through passing drills, threw with good velocity and jogged effortlessly back to his spot between reps.

He never favored the knee and seemed to be serving notice that he's ready to pick up where he left off last season.

He practiced quickly and spent time after reps talking to receivers such as free agent pickup Nate Burleson about routes.

Hoyer looked like a quarterback in complete control of his team, and one determined to send a message that the Browns needn't be in a rush to draft a starting quarterback.

Free agent quarterbacks Vince Young and Tyler Thigpen, who are getting tryouts during camp, also took reps, along with Alex Tanney.

Hoyer, who underwent surgery Oct. 18, might be somewhat limited during this camp, but looks like he'll be full-go by the start of the season.

General manager Ray Farmer said Monday he's excited about where Hoyer is in his rehab right now.

Hoyer, who went 3-0 last season and tore the ACL Oct. 3 against the Bills, will be available this afternoon after practice.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss..._medium=twitter

Tony Grossi ‏@TonyGrossi · 2h
QB Brian Hoyer wore brace on right knee, but was agile and assertive with everything he did. Taking ownership of the team from Day 1.

It will be very interesting to see how Hoyer pans out this coming season. Will he be able to play the same way he did last season, or will he fall back to his backup QB status? And if he does, who will replace him?

-I wish the season started sooner!

I know I can speak for a lot of us when I say when he played last year, it was electric. FUN. Just what a Browns junkie like me craves. We were good again.

I have to say, Hoyer is really becoming a leader. I've read interviews with players and heard many reports of him working extra hard and the players are noticing it.He may not end up the starter, but he sure is acting the part. He is focused and being a leader. Those are the qualities you want. I also get the feeling that he is very respected by his teammates.

http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/108583...ing-quarterback

BEREA, Ohio -- Brian Hoyer was back on the field with his Cleveland Browns teammates Tuesday for the first time since he tore a knee ligament in October.

More from ESPN.com

Browns coach Mike Pettine would prefer not to start a rookie at quarterback, regardless of how high he's been drafted, writes Pat McManamon. Story

Hoyer was limited in what he could do and did not take part in team drills, but his attitude toward the most vexing position on the Browns was clear.

"Until someone tells me otherwise," he said, "I feel like I'm the starter for this team."

Hoyer hurt his knee in his third start for the Browns, a Thursday night win over Buffalo. He had won his first two starts, and seemed to be grabbing hold of the starting job.

But he hurt his knee when he slid and was hit by Kiko Alonso. Surgery followed two weeks later.

Some six months later, Hoyer was active and assertive on the field, clearly acting like he belonged as the team's starter.

"Assertive is a good way to describe him," tight end Jordan Cameron said.

Coach Mike Pettine said Hoyer is ahead of schedule, and he expects Hoyer will be full-go for training camp, if not for the full-team minicamp in June. Hoyer is eager to do everything.

"I know we don't play a game until August, but I also know that in order to be the guy in August you put the time in in the offseason," he said.

Among the other quarterbacks on the team are veterans Vince Young and Tyler Thigpen, signed on a tryout basis through minicamp.

Pettine said the team would likely sign one of the two after the three-day camp ends.

Cleveland Browns in 'win now' business is why they hope quarterback Brian Hoyer can start -- Terry Pluto

http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2014/04/cleveland_browns_in_win_now_bu.html

By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer
on April 30, 2014 at 6:45 AM, updated April 30, 2014 at 7:18 AM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Do the Browns need a rookie quarterback?

Yes.

Does he have to start?

No.

In fact, Mike Pettine prefers to open the season with a veteran under center -- and that makes sense.

A lot of sense.

As the Browns coach said after Tuesday's minicamp: "(Starting a rookie quarterback) is something you hope to avoid because I think you can set that player back and set your team back while we are in the 'win now' business. As history has shown, I think it's (win now) very hard to do with a rookie quarterback."

The Browns are in the "win now" business.

While intentionally keeping the definition of "win now" vague, the goal obviously is to step out of that 5-11, 4-12 ditch that has trapped the franchise for the last six years.

Pettine also talked about how he was part of teams where Kyle Boller, Joe Flacco, E.J. Manuel and Mark Sanchez started as rookies.

It's very obvious he'd prefer to postpone some of the growing pains (and early losses) by putting the ball in Brian Hoyer's hands to open the season.

Everything is always subject to change. Hoyer is making an excellent recovery from ACL surgery, but he's still coming back from major knee surgery. It was uplifting for the Browns to see him moving well and not wearing a brace during some of the drills at Tuesday's practice.
Two years ago, Matt Flynn was supposed to be the starter for Seattle.

The Seahawks picked Russell Wilson in the third round -- and he won the starting job by the end of training camp.

No one with the Seahawks saw that happening on draft day, or even when camp opened in 2012.

So it's possible a rookie starts for the Browns.

But don't bet on it, even if the Browns grab a rookie quarterback with one of their two picks in the first round.

General Manager Ray Farmer and Pettine are both rookies in their current jobs. But they have been in the league for a long time. They also weren't asleep when the team president Joe Banner, general manager Mike Lombardi along with coach Rob Chudzinski were all fired after one season with the Browns.

They know what Owner Jimmy Haslam wants -- a team that is competitive.

That's why four of the nine veteran free agents signed to contract are at least 31 years old.

The two most expensive acquisitions are Karlos Dansby (32 years old) and Donte Whitner (28 but in his 10th NFL season).

Receiver Nate Burleson (32) has played 12 years. Offensive lineman Paul McQuistan (31) has played nine years.

The goal is to put a legitimate NFL team on the field right now.

And that's why Farmer has brought in veteran quarterbacks Vince Young and Tyler Thigpen for tryouts this week. It's why they may look at other experienced quarterbacks this season.

And finally, it's why they are hoping Hoyer can be a viable NFL starter.

That way, when they do draft a quarterback -- he will not be forced into action right away.

As Pettine said, "We're in the 'win now' business." Seldom does that happen with a rookie under center.

(end)

Of course they'd like him to be able to start and win.. Hell, that makes life for them much easier all the way around. They'd have the luxury of drafting a guy lower that needs time to develop for a year or so and if nothing else, if Hoyer is successful, they have freedom to do just that.

Great situation to be in

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Of course they'd like him to be able to start and win.. Hell, that makes life for them much easier all the way around. They'd have the luxury of drafting a guy lower that needs time to develop for a year or so and if nothing else, if Hoyer is successful, they have freedom to do just that.

Great situation to be in

The problem with that is, the draft comes before any of that can be determined.

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Of course they'd like him to be able to start and win.. Hell, that makes life for them much easier all the way around. They'd have the luxury of drafting a guy lower that needs time to develop for a year or so and if nothing else, if Hoyer is successful, they have freedom to do just that.

Great situation to be in

The problem with that is, the draft comes before any of that can be determined.

I don't view it as a problem. I think they still have to find the long term answer no matter what.

With Hoyer starting, they have the flexibility to groom a guy instead of throwing him into the fire..

this can be a positive.

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They'd have the luxury of drafting a guy lower that needs time to develop for a year or so and if nothing else, if Hoyer is successful, they have freedom to do just that.

My point is, they don't know if that is a luxury they are afforded.

what I'm saying is if you knew Hoyer would play well and be healthy, yes, you have the luxury of drafting lower and bringing a guy along.

With that factor being a complete unknown, if you see a QB you really want, you need to take him. Now I'm no QB guru, so I won't say there is "the guy" on their draft board. But saying if Hoyer plays well, you have "the luxury of drafting a guy lower", when we simply don't know if that "luxury" exists.

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Browns are trying to sign QB Brian Hoyer to a contract extension, per sources. Hoyer is headed into last year of his deal.

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter

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Browns are trying to sign QB Brian Hoyer to a contract extension, per sources. Hoyer is headed into last year of his deal.

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter

Love to hear it. Will be a brilliant move if he plays well.

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Browns are trying to sign QB Brian Hoyer to a contract extension, per sources. Hoyer is headed into last year of his deal.

https://twitter.com/AdamSchefter

Love to hear it. Will be a brilliant move if he plays well.

His agent is on record saying something along the lines of ..... Hoyer would like to remain with the Browns as the starter. If he is to be the backup, and he would only be a backup elsewhere, then he would rather stay here as the backup. However, if he were a backup here, but possibly a starter elsewhere, then he would rather be free to pursue a starting job.

However, maybe a long term deal with a solid salary could convince him to change his mind.

The ball is in Hoyer's court on that front.

He's the favorite to start the season under center. If he plays well, he'll stay there.

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Hoyer says he'll be ready

to hold the clip board

I hope Hoyer beats out Johnny. It means we have something good going on.
if not ...Heres Johnny

I don't see the extension being done until later in the season. Hoyer needs to know where he stands because backup money and starter money are two totally different animals. Can't blame him a bit for waiting for the money phone to ring.

j/c

wonder if they can do a deal like grecko got. paid starter money if he is starting and backup money if he lose the starting job?

Tim Couch? Derek Anderson? Brian Hoyer? Who are the top 5 Cleveland Browns quarterbacks since 1999?

Who are your top 5 Browns quarterbacks since 1999? Vote in our poll below (you can select five)

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/06/tim_couch_derek_anderson_brian.html

Brian Hoyer: Fans were teased with small sample of what Brian Hoyer could do as the starting quarterback. He only started three games last season, but went undefeated. Granted, Brandon Weeden saved a win against the Buffalo Bills.
It's hard to put Hoyer so high on the list after only two full games, but he did provide hope and stability for the Browns before tearing his ACL.
His shining moment was leading the Browns to a win over the Minnesota Vikings on the road, throwing three touchdown passes in a single game. Something Weeden never did in 19 starts.
Hoyer is still on the roster and will compete with Manziel for the starting job. If he doesn't win, the Browns will have No. 21 and another name to add to the list.

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he is third on the poll. DA is first and couch second.

it's depressing enough to have to pick 1 "best" QB since '99, let alone 5 of them.

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I don't see the extension being done until later in the season. Hoyer needs to know where he stands because backup money and starter money are two totally different animals. Can't blame him a bit for waiting for the money phone to ring.

Although even if it is in the $6 million/year range which is what I'm hearing on the radio, that would be great for the Browns even if/when he is the backup.

Hoyer was a backup to Brady for several years and knows what it takes to use that mentality for the betterment of the team (and the starting QB). With having Manziel, it's really not a matter of 'if' but 'when' Manziel gets his shot to be the starter. So many teams are plagued with having horrible backups. Even if Manziel seizes the starting job, it'd be awesome to have to security of Hoyer as the backup.

If Manziel becomes our franchise QB, Hoyer could be valuable in the trading market, kind of the same vein as the 49ers and the Alex Smith/Colin Kaepernick situation.

I don't believe you touch paying a guy 6 mil as a back up when you just drafted a guy as your future starter. You don't spend a first round draft pick on someone to be your future back up.

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it's depressing enough to have to pick 1 "best" QB since '99, let alone 5 of them.

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Hoyer says he'll be ready

to hold the clip board

I hope Hoyer beats out Johnny. It means we have something good going on.
if not ...Heres Johnny

If manziel beats out Hoyer for the job, Great, then he should have it. but to start him because he was a first round pick? I don't think so.

HELL NO!

I've been preaching it since Pettine hinted on it... let there be fair competition, and let the best man win and earn the spot. If that's Brian, awesome... if that's Johnny, then super duper. Whoever it is, I will cross my fingers it was because they earned it!

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The ball is in Hoyer's court on that front.

He's the favorite to start the season under center. If he plays well, he'll stay there.

I agree, but it will have to be a incentive laden deal. I say give him starter money if he is starting

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HELL NO!

I've been preaching it since Pettine hinted on it... let there be fair competition, and let the best man win and earn the spot. If that's Brian, awesome... if that's Johnny, then super duper. Whoever it is, I will cross my fingers it was because they earned it!

It is going to be VERY interesting who starts the season in Pittsburgh. I'm thinking Hoyer, as long as his knee is ready.... If we lose our first three games then after the bye week in goes Johnny Football. That's my best guess.

I wish NFL football started this Sunday. I AM READY!!!

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Tim Couch? Derek Anderson? Brian Hoyer? Who are the top 5 Cleveland Browns quarterbacks since 1999?

Who are your top 5 Browns quarterbacks since 1999? Vote in our poll below (you can select five)

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/06/tim_couch_derek_anderson_brian.html

Brian Hoyer: Fans were teased with small sample of what Brian Hoyer could do as the starting quarterback. He only started three games last season, but went undefeated. Granted, Brandon Weeden saved a win against the Buffalo Bills.
It's hard to put Hoyer so high on the list after only two full games, but he did provide hope and stability for the Browns before tearing his ACL.
His shining moment was leading the Browns to a win over the Minnesota Vikings on the road, throwing three touchdown passes in a single game. Something Weeden never did in 19 starts.
Hoyer is still on the roster and will compete with Manziel for the starting job. If he doesn't win, the Browns will have No. 21 and another name to add to the list.

-------------------------

he is third on the poll. DA is first and couch second.

That's like picking the top 5 diseases or the top 5 terrorist attacks of the last decade.

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The ball is in Hoyer's court on that front.

He's the favorite to start the season under center. If he plays well, he'll stay there.

You think these guys are ready for the heat they will take if Johnny sits the next four years? For completely blowing a first round pick? I can't wait to see how the stadium reacts when Hoyer throws an interception. "Johnny" chants and boos will rain down on Hoyer very quickly. Everyone's hope is now placed on Johnny Football. Hoyer has a very very short leash if he does start the season.

This is set up to play out a lot like the Quinn/Anderson debacle. IF Hoyer plays good enough to win 9 or 10 games, then next year he will have "earned" the job. But any talk of trading Johnny will be quashed. We need him sitting on the bench don't you know. He wins games for us with his ass planted on the pine. We don't need another player on the field. We're all set, as is.... then we go 6-10 or 7-9.

IF Hoyer is the man, then it was pretty stupid to trade up in the 1st round to take a backup QB. Not when they KNEW that Gordon was out for the season. One true weapon to help whatever QB is under center, and he's gonzo. So instead of getting some help for Hoyer, they took a backup? Traded up into the first to get a BACKUP for the next 4 years? Man, I don't see that. Johnny HAS to play and he has to play WELL or this pick will absolutely be considered a bust. And the media will crucify the front office.

Worst thing to happen to this franchise in quite some time was Hoyer getting hurt. Had he played out the season we would have had a much better understanding of what kind of QB he is.

A guy under contract for less than a year, and less and less time going forward, has zero trade value, and the only value you get for him is a supplemental pick if he leaves via free agency.
So attempting to sign Hoyer is a solid move for the Browns on a couple levels. Are they signing him to keep him, or signing him for when it's time for him to move on.

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I don't believe you touch paying a guy 6 mil as a back up when you just drafted a guy as your future starter. You don't spend a first round draft pick on someone to be your future back up.

I say 6 million is to much BUT you give him a nice contract for the next 2 or 3 years and tell Johnny, if he wants to be the starter he has to prove he is better.

Brian Hoyer's agent says a contract extension with the Cleveland Browns before November would be 'very difficult'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/06/brian_hoyers_agent_says_a_cont.html

By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group on June 30, 2014 at 7:16 PM, updated July 01, 2014 at 7:36 AM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Browns are trying to extend the contract of quarterback Brian Hoyer, who's base salary is only $1 million this season, but his agent acknowledges that it will be tough to pull off before November given Hoyer's uncertain role on the team.

"It will be a very difficult deal to do,'' agent Joe Linta told NFL.com. "We're always open to talking with the Browns, but we're content to wait and see what happens down the road."

ESPN's Adam Schefter first reported Monday that extension talks have taken place.

Linta also told profootballtalk.com that two dates are looming regarding a new deal: November 1 and the end of the season. The feeling is that by November, Hoyer will know if he's the Browns starting quarterback or the backup to Johnny Manziel, whom the Browns traded up from No. 26 to No. 22 to draft on May 8.

And if he starts and plays well, that will mean a bigger payday at the end of the season.

If the Browns do extend Hoyer before the end of the season, they'll likely look at a couple of contracts that were signed this year for quarterbacks who may or may not be long-term starters. Jacksonville's Chad Henne signed a two-year deal worth $8 million, including $4.5 million guaranteed. And Minnesota's Matt Cassel, who will battle rookie Teddy Bridgewater and Christian Ponder for the starting job, received a two-year deal in March worth $10 million.

But those deals are a far cry from what some of the top quarterbacks in the NFL are averaging per year: Green Bay's Aaron Rodgers, $22 million; Atlanta's Matt Ryan, $20.75 million; and Baltimore's Joe Flacco, $20.1 million.

The other reason it's tricky to do an extension right now is that Hoyer is coming off a torn anterior cruciate ligament and hasn't even been cleared for full 11-on-11s yet. He's looked healthy in spring practices and is expected to be full-go by the start of training camp July 26th, but no one really knows how the knee will respond until he experiences full contact.

Conversely, Hoyer might want to re-do the deal and earn a large chunk of guaranteed money to protect himself against another major injury.

As it stands, he'll make $1.25 million in 2014, including his $250,000 roster bonus paid in March. He's also set to make another $1.15 million this year in incentives, most likely based on playing time.

Last offseason, he signed a two-year deal worth $1.965 million -- but with only $250,000 guaranteed.

One thing is for certain: Hoyer will head into training camp as the No. 1 quarterback, and it's his job to lose.

"Brian had been here for those seven, eight weeks before the draft even started,'' coach Mike Pettine said at the conclusion of minicamp. "That was essentially a head start, and I don't think it's insurmountable. Brian is securely ahead of (Manziel) right now, but we will compete and we will decide.

"The issue for us as a staff is finding the right time to name a starter. If you wait too late, then nobody's ready for the opener. If you do it too soon, then it wasn't a true competition."

Hoyer told cleveland.com the day after the draft that he hasn't contemplated going elsewhere with Johnny Football is on board.

"No, because the grass is always greener,'' he said. "You never know how it's going to be and I'm not going to shy away from anything. ..."I'm in this thing and I never want to leave Cleveland. "This is where I was born and raised and being from here doesn't make me the best quarterback for this team. Being the best quarterback makes me the best quarterback for this team. I don't want any sympathy votes because I'm from Cleveland and I'm a local guy. That's not what this is about. This is about putting the best player on the field.''

Manziel made it clear at a Play 60 youth clinic in Berea last week that he wants to be the starter on opening day in Pittsburgh Sept. 7.

"Absolutely,'' he said. "I want to play. That's what anybody wants to do that's been a starter in the past and been playing. They want to play. Obviously I'm very competitive and I remember my redshirt year when I didn't play. It's tough to sit there but at the same time there's a lot of knowledge that I learned from Ryan Tannehill so will it be the end of the world if that's not the case? No. I think you take it in stride and you learn a lot from your situation and you make the most of what situation you're in.

"To say I don't want to be the starter would be ridiculous. I absolutely want to start. That's my goal and hopefully I can achieve that. If not, it's not the end of the world."

(end)

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I don't believe you touch paying a guy 6 mil as a back up when you just drafted a guy as your future starter. You don't spend a first round draft pick on someone to be your future back up.

I say 6 million is to much BUT you give him a nice contract for the next 2 or 3 years and tell Johnny, if he wants to be the starter he has to prove he is better.

And I believe that's where the problem lies. If Hoyer believes he will end up being the starter for the season, he may feel he is worth the 6 mil and probably is. If Johnny Manziel busts and Hoyer is the long term starter, he may be worth even more. I'm quite sure that's how the Hoyer camp feels when it comes to negotiating.

Now from the aspect of the FO, you drafted Johnny Football for the future. To move up the way they did to draft him, it's obvious they feel he will be our starting QB at some point. If they feel that point is some time this year, or even by the beginning of next season, why would you extend Hoyer at the kind of money they would want?

I can see both sides of the coin here and understand why reaching a deal could be very difficult.

good points Pit.

But lets says we give BH $6 mil a year for next three years. Not bad money for a starting QB in this league.

And what if he does not start? 6 mil for a back up is high but when countered with the rookie cointracts of JM and probably CS then the total pay out for our QB's is small, though skewed.

What if JM studs out ? BH at $6 mil to a team lookng for him to start is a good deal for that team. If no takers we bite the bullet for a few yearts then re-up him at a more friendly amount just in time to re-do JM.

If JM flames out we are back at $6 mil for a good QB.

I say give him his contract and allow him a right of first refusal on a trade, so that if we are looking to move him he can go to a team looking to him as a starter.

I'm not saying that doesn't sound good in theory, but I'd say that in the Hoyer camp, they would most likely believe if he ends up being the starter, he's worth more than that 6 mil.

It's quite a gamble for them to take. But a player should believe he is the best. If that is their belief, in their minds, Hoyer will start over Manziel which will raise his value by quite a bit. So the question becomes, settle for a lower amount now, or look for a much better deal a little later.

I believe that is why they seem to be tending to be happy with not being in a hurry to make a deal.

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I don't believe you touch paying a guy 6 mil as a back up when you just drafted a guy as your future starter. You don't spend a first round draft pick on someone to be your future back up.

I say 6 million is to much BUT you give him a nice contract for the next 2 or 3 years and tell Johnny, if he wants to be the starter he has to prove he is better.

And I believe that's where the problem lies. If Hoyer believes he will end up being the starter for the season, he may feel he is worth the 6 mil and probably is. If Johnny Manziel busts and Hoyer is the long term starter, he may be worth even more. I'm quite sure that's how the Hoyer camp feels when it comes to negotiating.

Now from the aspect of the FO, you drafted Johnny Football for the future. To move up the way they did to draft him, it's obvious they feel he will be our starting QB at some point. If they feel that point is some time this year, or even by the beginning of next season, why would you extend Hoyer at the kind of money they would want?

I can see both sides of the coin here and understand why reaching a deal could be very difficult.

I don't know why any of us would get hung up on the money thing. The Browns have the CAP room so why worry.

I am literally done talking cap. It goes up every season, we never really know what market value is etc.

The only time I am going to cry cap is when we re-sign or sign guys that I think aren't very good or worth their paycheck.

Sounds like a dumb, needless move by the agent - unless the agent is hoping to hit free agency. There's no reason that he can't write a deal with performance escalators that covers all the bases.

He's trying to play hardball, but he doesn't realize he's the only one on the field.

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Sounds like a dumb, needless move by the agent - unless the agent is hoping to hit free agency. There's no reason that he can't write a deal with performance escalators that covers all the bases.

He's trying to play hardball, but he doesn't realize he's the only one on the field.

same agent that convinced Flacco to ride out the season on the Ravens and got lucky how things fell for him.

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I'm not saying that doesn't sound good in theory, but I'd say that in the Hoyer camp, they would most likely believe if he ends up being the starter, he's worth more than that 6 mil.

And as the Browns FO, I pull out the list of starting QBs in Cleveland since '99 and say, "The label 'starter' doesn't automatically mean you're Peyton Manning or Tom Brady"

Sadly I believe if Hoyer can pull 8-8, he'd be worth 10+ mil in the FA market.

As has been mentioned, it's the Flacco thing. He waited it out and his contract paid off for waiting. If you look at what Cassel and some QB's who only won a few games pulled in on the FA market, I believe that may be a risk he and his agent are willing to take.

This could backfire if Hoyer gets beat out in pre season. If he sits for the season behind Manzeil his worth goes way down.

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Sadly I believe if Hoyer can pull 8-8, he'd be worth 10+ mil in the FA market.

As has been mentioned, it's the Flacco thing. He waited it out and his contract paid off for waiting. If you look at what Cassel and some QB's who only won a few games pulled in on the FA market, I believe that may be a risk he and his agent are willing to take.

From a P.R. standpoint, I think that unless he plays lights-out, the only thing he's going to accomplish is to feed the Manziel bandwagon. I can see the agent's hesitancy to work on things generating a LOT of negative press/publicity/pressure for Hoyer.

Let's face it... it is not "hard" or "difficult" to work a deal that will be good for everyone. It's pretty simple, actually.
This is simply nothing more than agent-speak saying that it isn't happening at all, period, right now unless we were to blow them away with an offer that would be grossly overpaying (e.g. Flacco-type money). Unless Hoyer is significantly better than Flacco, he does not deserve that kind of money, because Flacco isn't good enough to deserve that kind of money. I have little doubt that the Ravens regret that contract, lol!

It could backfire either way really. Him and his agent would need to way to the risk-vs-rewards ordeal.

The vice versa of your statement would be: he accepts a smaller/weaker contract and then comes in as starter and balls (like he did last year during his short time playing). Then he's proven quality without the money in the pocket.

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I'm not saying that doesn't sound good in theory, but I'd say that in the Hoyer camp, they would most likely believe if he ends up being the starter, he's worth more than that 6 mil.

It's quite a gamble for them to take. But a player should believe he is the best. If that is their belief, in their minds, Hoyer will start over Manziel which will raise his value by quite a bit. So the question becomes, settle for a lower amount now, or look for a much better deal a little later.

I believe that is why they seem to be tending to be happy with not being in a hurry to make a deal.

I think it's actually quite simple. Put performance target bonuses in the contract. Make some of them rather easy to reach and then with higher performance, he gets more money. Write it so that any such bonuses are paid as soon as the performance criteria are met. You could also add in an insurance policy, where if he gets injured and misses extended time that the performance bonuses get 'projected out' for the season and if the projections would have him meeting the bonuses that he would still get paid them (when he would be projected to get them).

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Sadly I believe if Hoyer can pull 8-8, he'd be worth 10+ mil in the FA market.

As has been mentioned, it's the Flacco thing. He waited it out and his contract paid off for waiting. If you look at what Cassel and some QB's who only won a few games pulled in on the FA market, I believe that may be a risk he and his agent are willing to take.

Perhaps ..... but perhaps not. It all depends on how the season plays out.

Look at Alex Smith in KC. He helped that team turn around in a huge way ..... yet he and the Chiefs are reportedly miles away on a new deal. He is not seen as "the" difference maker on the team, but rather more as a cog in the machine. It was the same view that the Niners held about him.

I see no reason, as of right now, why Hoyer would be worth more on the open market than a guy like Smith would be. Granted, Smith hasn't hit the open market yet ..... but I think that teams see him more as a stop gap "bridge" QB, rather than a franchise type.

If Hoyer plays lights out, then the Browns will try their best to re-sign him, even if it takes a huge deal. If he is just average, then i don't see some huge deal coming his way.

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Let's face it... it is not "hard" or "difficult" to work a deal that will be good for everyone. It's pretty simple, actually.

Could there be considerations should Manzel start giving Hoyer a chance to latch on with another team next season and his contract now could be a detriment to him in a trade?

Only bringing it up because I don't know how all that works.

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Sadly I believe if Hoyer can pull 8-8, he'd be worth 10+ mil in the FA market.

As has been mentioned, it's the Flacco thing. He waited it out and his contract paid off for waiting. If you look at what Cassel and some QB's who only won a few games pulled in on the FA market, I believe that may be a risk he and his agent are willing to take.

Perhaps ..... but perhaps not. It all depends on how the season plays out.

Look at Alex Smith in KC. He helped that team turn around in a huge way ..... yet he and the Chiefs are reportedly miles away on a new deal. He is not seen as "the" difference maker on the team, but rather more as a cog in the machine. It was the same view that the Niners held about him.

I see no reason, as of right now, why Hoyer would be worth more on the open market than a guy like Smith would be. Granted, Smith hasn't hit the open market yet ..... but I think that teams see him more as a stop gap "bridge" QB, rather than a franchise type.

If Hoyer plays lights out, then the Browns will try their best to re-sign him, even if it takes a huge deal. If he is just average, then i don't see some huge deal coming his way.

I think it should also be contractual that any victory over a division opponent sees a bonus paid to every active player on the roster and with contributors to the victories getting a bigger slice of the pie.

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Let's face it... it is not "hard" or "difficult" to work a deal that will be good for everyone. It's pretty simple, actually.

Could there be considerations should Manzel start giving Hoyer a chance to latch on with another team next season and his contract now could be a detriment to him in a trade?

Only bringing it up because I don't know how all that works.

I would guess that this part would be self-regulating.... if Hoyer doesn't play well enough to hold off Manziel, he wouldn't be hitting any performance escalators, so the value of his contract would be quite low and easily tradeable. If he plays well, Manziel will continue to sit, and he will have shots at hitting escalators and inflating the value of his contract.

The agent is simply trying to hit a home run when he just needs to try for a solid double.
Heck, they could build in clauses that if he hits certain escalators, it could trigger an option to opt-out and re-negotiate.... it's just a contract, they can word it any way they want. The only limiters would be the NFLPA and the CBA.... and their imaginations.

The agent simply doesn't want to get it done right now because he is gambling that his leverage will be greater in the middle of the season, potentially just before we begin a playoff push and he can be a distraction, a story every media outlet would love to run with - increasing value in the court of public opinion. #1 rule in negotiating... your value is whatever you can convince someone it is.

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Brian Hoyer's agent says a contract extension with the Cleveland Browns before November would be 'very difficult'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2014/06/brian_hoyers_agent_says_a_cont.html

By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group on June 30, 2014 at 7:16 PM, updated July 01, 2014 at 7:36 AM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The Browns are trying to extend the contract of quarterback Brian Hoyer, who's base salary is only $1 million this season, but his agent acknowledges that it will be tough to pull off before November given Hoyer's uncertain role on the team.

"It will be a very difficult deal to do,'' agent Joe Linta told NFL.com. "We're always open to talking with the Browns, but we're content to wait and see what happens down the road."

ESPN's Adam Schefter first reported Monday that extension talks have taken place.

Linta also told profootballtalk.com that two dates are looming regarding a new deal: November 1 and the end of the season. The feeling is that by November, Hoyer will know if he's the Browns starting quarterback or the backup to Johnny Manziel, whom the Browns traded up from No. 26 to No. 22 to draft on May 8.

And if he starts and plays well, that will mean a bigger payday at the end of the season.

If the Browns do extend Hoyer before the end of the season, they'll likely look at a couple of contracts that were signed this year for quarterbacks who may or may not be long-term starters. Jacksonville's Chad Henne signed a two-year deal worth $8 million, including $4.5 million guaranteed. And Minnesota's Matt Cassel, who will battle rookie Teddy Bridgewater and Christian Ponder for the starting job, received a two-year deal in March worth $10 million.

But those deals are a far cry from what some of the top quarterbacks in the NFL are averaging per year: Green Bay's Aaron Rodgers, $22 million; Atlanta's Matt Ryan, $20.75 million; and Baltimore's Joe Flacco, $20.1 million.

The other reason it's tricky to do an extension right now is that Hoyer is coming off a torn anterior cruciate ligament and hasn't even been cleared for full 11-on-11s yet. He's looked healthy in spring practices and is expected to be full-go by the start of training camp July 26th, but no one really knows how the knee will respond until he experiences full contact.

Conversely, Hoyer might want to re-do the deal and earn a large chunk of guaranteed money to protect himself against another major injury.

As it stands, he'll make $1.25 million in 2014, including his $250,000 roster bonus paid in March. He's also set to make another $1.15 million this year in incentives, most likely based on playing time.

Last offseason, he signed a two-year deal worth $1.965 million -- but with only $250,000 guaranteed.

One thing is for certain: Hoyer will head into training camp as the No. 1 quarterback, and it's his job to lose.

"Brian had been here for those seven, eight weeks before the draft even started,'' coach Mike Pettine said at the conclusion of minicamp. "That was essentially a head start, and I don't think it's insurmountable. Brian is securely ahead of (Manziel) right now, but we will compete and we will decide.

"The issue for us as a staff is finding the right time to name a starter. If you wait too late, then nobody's ready for the opener. If you do it too soon, then it wasn't a true competition."

Hoyer told cleveland.com the day after the draft that he hasn't contemplated going elsewhere with Johnny Football is on board.

"No, because the grass is always greener,'' he said. "You never know how it's going to be and I'm not going to shy away from anything. ..."I'm in this thing and I never want to leave Cleveland. "This is where I was born and raised and being from here doesn't make me the best quarterback for this team. Being the best quarterback makes me the best quarterback for this team. I don't want any sympathy votes because I'm from Cleveland and I'm a local guy. That's not what this is about. This is about putting the best player on the field.''

Manziel made it clear at a Play 60 youth clinic in Berea last week that he wants to be the starter on opening day in Pittsburgh Sept. 7.

"Absolutely,'' he said. "I want to play. That's what anybody wants to do that's been a starter in the past and been playing. They want to play. Obviously I'm very competitive and I remember my redshirt year when I didn't play. It's tough to sit there but at the same time there's a lot of knowledge that I learned from Ryan Tannehill so will it be the end of the world if that's not the case? No. I think you take it in stride and you learn a lot from your situation and you make the most of what situation you're in.

"To say I don't want to be the starter would be ridiculous. I absolutely want to start. That's my goal and hopefully I can achieve that. If not, it's not the end of the world."

(end)

As I said, it will be difficult. One side is going to want a low end deal and the other a high end deal.

I don't see it happening.

The Browns best bet is if they arrive at a number and contract length that offers Hoyer security against injury. I think that it's obvious that he is going to get a shot to win the job.

Just clicking

http://www.newsnet5.com/sports/browns/agent-for-browns-hoyer-confident-contract-coming

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Brian Hoyer's precarious grip on the Browns' starting job -- and rookie Johnny Manziel's presence -- makes it tough to negotiate a new contract for the quarterback.

His agent thinks it will happen anyway.

Hoyer, who is coming back after undergoing offseason right knee surgery, will enter training camp with the lead in his competition with Manziel. But until the Browns are convinced Hoyer is healthy, and providing he holds off Manziel, it's difficult for the team to gauge his value. Agent Joe Linta said the sides have had some preliminary discussions, but it may be some time before they get serious about negotiations.

"We just had a couple of friendly conversations," Linta said in an email to The Associated Press on Tuesday.

"They agreed that it's very difficult to assess his worth presently. I think that this will all work itself quickly as the season moves forward."

Hoyer went 3-0 as a starter last season before tearing his anterior cruciate ligament while sliding at the end of a scramble. He recovered more quickly than doctors expected and he moved well during practices in the team's mini-camp this spring. Hoyer was kept out of 11-on-11 drills to avoid contact, but he's expected to be fully cleared when training camp opens on July 26.

First-year Browns coach Mike Pettine recently said Hoyer had the lead in the quarterback competition over Manziel, who was selected in the first round of May's NFL draft. Manziel could one day supplant Hoyer as Cleveland's starter, but that's not guaranteed, so it's difficult for the team to decide whether they should pay Hoyer like a starter or a backup.

After all, Hoyer had been a career backup before the Cleveland-area native signed a signed a two-year, $1,965,000 contract with the Browns in May 2013. He received a $250,000 roster bonus in March and is scheduled to make a base salary of $1 million next season. The deal can reach $1.15 million with incentives.

The 28-year-old Hoyer has waited patiently for his chance to start. He's paid his dues. He also has impressed the Browns with his determination to return to the field.

Linta said Hoyer is committed to the Browns, and he's hoping they feel the same way about him.

"Brian wants to be in Cleveland," Linta said. "He loves how the fans rallied around him and the team during his winning streak last year. He'll never forget that. With that in mind and if the Browns want him, we will work something out eventually. (General manager) Ray Farmer and (executive VP) Sashi Brown are good guys to deal with and they, like the fans, want to win regardless of who the QB is."

Farmer did not reply to an email seeking comment.

Copyright 2014 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

j/c

The agent will want create a lever for Hoyer where the current one is relatively small, and his value undetermined now as a starter. Wait and watch is good for Hoyer and his agent, and not horrible for the FO which has shown a willingness to spend on quality. Hoyer needs to produce as a starter. He needs protection for himself going forward. I favor money up front and heavy escalators. I do not think this is huge concern, especially if it buys JM some time to learn, mature, and adapt.

That is why it will be difficult. I'd be shocked if anything happened until maybe mid season at the earliest.

That's somewhat disappointing. I think as a franchise we have the freedom and the leverage to make a good deal, and signing Hoyer to a solid contract would buy us good will with free agents.

I think that this could be an important contract for the Browns because it would show players in the locker room and in other locker rooms that we're willing to take care of our guys.

If we give Brian something in the area of 7-9 mil over 3 seasons, with about half of that guaranteed, we don't hurt our cap whatsoever, and we don't break the bank, but at the same time we show Brian that he is important to us, and it makes him 5-7 mil more this year, makes it hard to turn down. At the same time, it shows our guys that were willing to take care of the guys that are here and working hard. You know there isn't another guy in that lockerroom working as hard as Brian is.

Give him some cash, show him we want him and we care, and win positive PR all around the league. Then if he shows out, we can move him if that's the case, or we can move Johnny, or we can keep everyone and we look good all the way around.

Make a good will effort towards Hoyer and give him a good contract, its not like were stuck up against the cap. Pay him.

Personally, I don't think the FO is all that serious with giving Hoyer a contract. The guy played in two full games last year and has NEVER shown ability in other stops to sniff starting money or even to warrant a significant increase in salary.

This is JMO, but I think this was leaked out into the media so Johnny Football would catch wind of it as an attempt to reel him in a bit and focus on football just around the corner.

I have no clue why the Browns would entertain a long term contract w/ large salary increase with Hoyer based on his past productivity. It's a nice feel good story to have the local guy stick around on this team for awhile but this is a financial decision and don't think (at least at this point) he is worth the money people are suggesting around here....nevermind the guy is coming off a major injury and hasn't taken a real snap yet.

Sorry, I think this is posturing on the FO side. Nothing more.

I agree, ridiculous to sing him to a long term contract. Especially before the season begins coming off an ACL. Ridiculous.

Too much conspiracy thinking for me to handle LOL

I don't agree with you on this. They have doctors reviewing Hoyer all the time. They know the status of his leg.

As for Hoyer having only 2 games in a Browns uni, how many does Manziel have again?

LIke I said, too much conspiracy thinking for me to handle.

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As for Hoyer having only 2 games in a Browns uni, how many does Manziel have again?

Which means none of us really know if we have a QB at all. And I agree with you.

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As for Hoyer having only 2 games in a Browns uni, how many does Manziel have again?

I'm not sure what relevance this has with Hoyer deserving another contract?

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As for Hoyer having only 2 games in a Browns uni, how many does Manziel have again?

I'm not sure what relevance this has with Hoyer deserving another contract?

It means that we know nothing about Manziel as it relates to the NFL. Hoyer has a better NFL resume at this moment.

And I think if you look around, most are really hoping that Manziel works out and that if he's not ready day one, that Hoyer can fill in and keep the ship righted.

What it means is, if Hoyer is the starter for Game One, then you gotta pay the man.

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As for Hoyer having only 2 games in a Browns uni, how many does Manziel have again?

I'm not sure what relevance this has with Hoyer deserving another contract?

It means that we know nothing about Manziel as it relates to the NFL. Hoyer has a better NFL resume at this moment.

And I think if you look around, most are really hoping that Manziel works out and that if he's not ready day one, that Hoyer can fill in and keep the ship righted.

What it means is, if Hoyer is the starter for Game One, then you gotta pay the man.

Well of course Hoyer has a better resume at this point...no question. But that doesn't warrant a contract extension by any means.

If Hoyer does start game one, yes you gotta pay the man.....on his current contract. Starting game one is zero indicator in my book for a pay increase. Consistently providing wins and staying healthy will.

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If Hoyer does start game one, yes you gotta pay the man.....on his current contract

We'll see, hope those words don't come back to haunt you.

My words normally do.

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If Hoyer does start game one, yes you gotta pay the man.....on his current contract. Starting game one is zero indicator in my book for a pay increase. Consistently providing wins and staying healthy will.

I agree. Winning the starting job as the lesser of two evils is nothing to award a large contract for. He has to win and stay healthy as well.

I like Hoyer. He seems to "get it". He didn't look great like an Andrew Luck. But he has that winning mentality that won't let him give up. In both of his full game wins, although he wasn't great, he looked exciting as he pulled out wins instead of limping to a loss as we've seen with our past QBs.

I think Johnny is of the same type. For the opening game it's a matter of who has the most control of the offense along with the ability to read defenses & coverages at that time.

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My words normally do.

Ehh,, Join the club

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I agree. Winning the starting job as the lesser of two evils is nothing to award a large contract for

I don't agree,, winning as the lesser of two evils is still a win. if it comes down to losing him or not, you pay him.

I don't think it will come to that however. If Manziel wins the job, I don't see any other team out there that would guarantee Hoyer the starting spot so if he's going to be a back up, then my guess is he'd rather be here.

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What it means is, if Hoyer is the starter for Game One, then you gotta pay the man.

As I see it the ball will be in Hoyer's court. If Hoyer is willing to sign a longer term deal that isn't too disruptive if he ends up being the back-up, then great.. if Hoyer really believes in himself then he could sign a 1 or 2 year extension and prove that he really is NFL starter material and get his big pay day then.. right now, Hoyer is still a relatively unknown commodity with very little leverage to demand a big pay day.

Which is why I see what his agent is saying as the best case scenario. November at the earliest.

The team will have a better gauge of what he's worth, as well as Hoyer and his agent.

JC

If the Browns secure Hoyer an extension before end-season, I'll be pretty shocked. Hoyer's situation is unknown. Unknown if he'll be starter. Unknown if he'll even recover from injury cause him saying he's ready/healed 100%... I mean it's not that I don't believe him or want to believe he's lying - I just don't see it yet until the trainers/docs/whoever officially clears him for full practice.

Like his agent said, his value will be better known in Jan I believe he said. He'd sell himself short by agreeing to any terms this soon given all the various twist-n-turns of his ordeal. JMO

Exactly, he may feel physically ready but he hasn't been hit yet, he hasn't had DL rolling under his feet yet.. hard to know how he'll react when that starts happening..

Like I said, if Hoyer wanted to secure a nice 4 or 5 year deal for a few million a year to make him comfortable for a long time in life I'd be happy to give it to him. If he envisions himself as a long term viable NFL starter (which I assume he does) then he would be better served to wait until he takes a big step toward proving it.

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That's somewhat disappointing. I think as a franchise we have the freedom and the leverage to make a good deal, and signing Hoyer to a solid contract would buy us good will with free agents.

Here is the problem. Nobody really knows if Hoyer deserves starter money or solid back-up money. I don't know the numbers, but I assume Hoyer and his agent know the difference between starter money and solid back-up money. I assume the Browns do as well.

To save a lot of explaining, lets just say that neither side wants to get signed in to the wrong type of deal.

The Browns want to get him signed, but I doubt they are going to offer up starter type money. They want to be able to keep him as their back-up or trade him if Johnny takes over the job.. That won't happen if they are paying 10 mil a year over 4-5 years.

As I said very early on, the only way I see this happening early on is if it is a incentive laden contract with kick-in clauses if the does take off and remains our starting QB.

That said, players and agents usually aren't very interested in contracts like that.