While everyone was crying that we needed to draft a receiver Farmer was improving our O-line with a much needed guard.
Joel Bitonio’s growing up quickly
Kevin Jones
Staff Writer
Joel Bitonio is smiling. Always.
Walking the hallways in his trademark Nike sandals, Bitonio slaps hands with a Browns equipment employee. In the cafeteria he lets out a hearty laugh. After an intense, sweltering day of training camp, Bitonio poses for selfies with screaming diehard Browns supporters – and he eats up every second of it.
Joel Bitonio puts in the extra mile. Always.
In the meeting room, on the practice field and even with members of the media – Bitonio is showing people who he really is. A recent interview session with Bitonio lasted more than 20 minutes. The questioning had more of a campfire feel to it than a series of pressing questions.
Labeling Bitonio as a typical rookie is reading this situation totally wrong. Sure, Bitonio might occasionally carry shoulder pads after practice or be the recipient of some playful ribbing, like all young players. But in terms of his early progression and how much the franchise might count him in 2014, his Browns teammates see a common theme: Bitonio matters.
“The coaches obviously trust him enough to throw him in there right away with the No. 1s, and he’s proven already that he deserves it because he’s a fast learner,” said Pro Bowler Joe Thomas. “You can see he’s an athlete. He’s strong. I think he’s definitely going to be a big piece of this pie when it’s all said and done.”
“He’s picking up the offense quick,” said Alex Mack. “He’s an instinctual player. He looks good.”
“Smart kid,” said fellow guard John Greco. “You can tell he’s not the typical rookie. Sometimes those guys’ heads are spinning. As far as intelligence-wise, he’s right on. He shows that he’s athletic and he’s flying around.”
“Every day you don’t get better, you’re getting worse,” said Bitonio.
The intriguing part of Bitonio’s rise up the depth chart is that he barely played guard in college at Nevada. Bitonio was the Wolf Pack’s bookend left tackle his senior season, tasked with stoning pass rushers and paving the way for the teams’ outside zone running game.
Bitonio compares his position switch inside to playing football inside of a 1980s phone booth. Instead of retreating as a tackle with more freedom to be creative with angles, Bitonio now has to be firm on the line, filling up space while remaining strong enough to hold off 330-pounders.
There’s a fine line to walk when interpreting how impactful Bitonio has been so far.
“We’ve been really pleased, and I’m happier than hell that he’s here,” said Andy Moeller, the Browns' offensive line coach. “But by no means has he arrived. He’s still got work to do.”
The proof will be in the pudding and Bitonio will get his biggest test this Saturday in Detroit against the Lions.
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While everyone was crying that we needed to draft a receiver Farmer was improving our O-line with a much needed guard.
Well, there were three ZBS guards available in free agency and we didn't go after them. Additionally, this year's WR draft class was exceptionally strong. Thus, while I am not saying that Bitonio was a bad pick or that we made a mistake, I think you gloating about it is preposterous, at best.
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While everyone was crying that we needed to draft a receiver Farmer was improving our O-line with a much needed guard.
Well, there were three ZBS guards available in free agency and we didn't go after them. Additionally, this year's WR draft class was exceptionally strong. Thus, while I am not saying that Bitonio was a bad pick or that we made a mistake, I think you gloating about it is preposterous, at best.
I completely agree. That said I'm really looking towards watching Bitonio grow even if I can't remember that we drafted him most days of the week 
I didn't really know much about the kid, but it seems like he is a good player. I am just saying this because I want to make it clear that I am not bad-mouthing Bitonio. I just didn't like the tone of the original poster, especially because there were plenty of other options to attack the OL and WR positions.
I think if Miles Austin can remain on the field, and we get a good linemen outta it - then yeah the FO looks like pimps. Otherwise, it could be extremely questionable on their behalf for neglecting WR all together.
I'm anxious to see who Kyle and company deem the starters from Joe Thomas over. The only spot for sure cemented there over is of course Alex Mack's job. Pretty sure Grecco will remain at one of the guard positions, but can Gilkey make a name for himself? Can Bitonio flash? Can't wait to see the answers to these questions!
I think Bitonio is going to start. Now, while he may be a good player, there will still be growing pains and he will make more than his share of bad plays. It really appears that Grecco and Gilkey are battling for the starting job. This surprises me a bit.
Austin was a stud for a couple of years. I was researching him earlier today when responding to some guys on another thread. It seems that most think the Cowboys were a better team when he was NOT on the field last year. They didn't want any part of him this year and not one other team brought him in for a visit. Hopefully, he will prove them all wrong and be a good player for us, but I doubt if we'll be looking like "pimps." LOL
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While everyone was crying that we needed to draft a receiver Farmer was improving our O-line with a much needed guard.
Well, there were three ZBS guards available in free agency and we didn't go after them. Additionally, this year's WR draft class was exceptionally strong. Thus, while I am not saying that Bitonio was a bad pick or that we made a mistake, I think you gloating about it is preposterous, at best.
You win games at the line of scrimmage. That's where the ball is placed to start every play.
Tell us, which of these WRs from the 2015 draft class are going to be better or worse than this year's draft class? It's the end-all-be-all list, but it's a place to start.
http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/prospectrankings/2015/WR
I'm curious to know what you think. Truth is, nobody knows what will happen for next year's draft or even what will happen with the Browns roster of WRs for this NFL season.
Come on man. I think that the consensus is that Bitonio has enough talent to play the position for the team and to do some competently. The team will certainly benefit from having him on the team.
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You win games at the line of scrimmage. That's where the ball is placed to start every play.
Exactly. A staunch O-line buys extra second(s) for the QB to find a receiver, extra second(s) for receiver to get open, provides a passing lane, and opens up running game, plus allows RB's out in the flat instead of saving a QB's life in the backfield.
It is obvious that this team is being built on the same blueprint as the Seahawks and Niners.
We want a strong run game, with a powerful OL leading the way.
We want a strong defense, especially capable of shutting down the opponent's passing game.
We want a capable, but limited usage passing game. We want a passing game that is the exact opposite of last year's offense, Last year we led the league in passing attempts. This year we want an offense that can dominate at the LOS, and win with the run. We want a passing game that can produce while the run games takes the pressure off the QB.
On defense, we want to physically dominate the opponent, and turn them into a running team by taking away their passing game, and then run the ball better than they can. With the ability to do that, we want to put the QB in position to make plays when the opponent sells out to try to stop the run.
Someone brought up the fact that we beat the Bengals, because we have Joe Haden, who can single-handedly remove AJ Green from the field. I think that's a valid point. Now imagine if Gilbert is able to do so across the field from Haden. Then play Skrine in the slot ..... and possibly Desir on the opposing 4th receiver. Where does a team easily go? Probably after Desir , or the extra safety ..... but that's with their 4th receiver. That's not a great strategy.
I am encouraged for 2 reasons. 1, the Seahawks and Niners showed that you can win in today's NFL following the old time recipe of running the ball and playing defense. You don't have to lead the league in passing to win it all. That is a revelation, considering the conventional wisdom of recent years. The old time standard of running the ball, playing defense, and breaking down and dominating your opponent late wins. This is the kind of team we are building. We invested heavily at the RB position. We have invested heavily on the OL, and continue to bring in players with potential. We invested heavily in changing the defensive mindset, by bringing in new leaders, like Whitner, who knows how the Niners defense turned the corner, and Dansby, who helped Arizona turn things around last year. We added a shutdown capable CB. Man, I like where the defense is heading ..... and I think that we could be heading into Niners/Seahawks range in a couple of years. The first step was to add talent while changing the mindset. That part is in motion. Now we have to develop, and add pieces here or there to get to where we want.
I am excited, because I love the physically dominating/defensive team concept. That is the way that I love to see football played, and I thought that it was a dinosaur in today's NFL. However, things run in cycles in the NFL, and I think that we're on the right path for today's NFL.
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While everyone was crying that we needed to draft a receiver Farmer was improving our O-line with a much needed guard.
Well, there were three ZBS guards available in free agency and we didn't go after them. Additionally, this year's WR draft class was exceptionally strong. Thus, while I am not saying that Bitonio was a bad pick or that we made a mistake, I think you gloating about it is preposterous, at best.
And as we all know.. Rookie WRs always produce right away...
I think that it's pretty obvious that teams that rely too heavily on the passing game will get burned by it.
There are four outcomes, generally speaking, on every pass play.
1. Completed pass.
2. Incomplete pass.
3. Interception.
4. Sack.
Three of those general outcomes are bad.
On run plays, there are two outcomes, generally speaking.
1. Positive yardage.
2. Negative yardage.
That's basically it.
Either play can result in fumbles, but they aren't an outcome, generally speaking.
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While everyone was crying that we needed to draft a receiver Farmer was improving our O-line with a much needed guard.
Well, there were three ZBS guards available in free agency and we didn't go after them. Additionally, this year's WR draft class was exceptionally strong. Thus, while I am not saying that Bitonio was a bad pick or that we made a mistake, I think you gloating about it is preposterous, at best.
And as we all know.. Rookie WRs always produce right away...
+1
For runs, also possession change as result of fumble. But your point is well taken. Teams with over 20 completions for one or two yards and fail to move the chains are not successful offenses. Just suggesting that "possession" is big for the two categories as an additional consideration. Our "three-and-out" club was proof of this. Good simplified thinking, Anarchy.
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You win games at the line of scrimmage. That's where the ball is placed to start every play.
Really? Who has talked about the OL than me on this board over the years?
Are you guys really that poor at reading or are you just being adversarial because you don't like my opinion?
I clearly said that there were 3 good ZBS guards available in free agency. I was bringing it up over and over again during FA, which is when YTown chose to term it "whining." But now, I don't recognize the importance of the OL. 
This so reminds me of the conversations that have been on the boards for years. We'll see what you guys will say in October about our WRs and offense.
You can only fix so much in one draft and Pettine/Farmer chose tofix the running game this year and basically forgo the passing game. In today's NFL I'm not sure that philosophy isn't misguided.
I guess we'll find out.
While not as optimistic, I agree with what you said.
Yeah, it sounds good. However, how many times have we heard how the Browns were modeling their team after the [insert current powerhouse team at the time here?]
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You can only fix so much in one draft and Pettine/Farmer chose tofix the running game this year and basically forgo the passing game. In today's NFL I'm not sure that philosophy isn't misguided.
I guess we'll find out.
They drafted a running back and a much needed athletic guard. They also drafted a QB. I don't see how that is solely fixing the running game and forgoing the passing game, unless you don't count the O-line and QB positions as being essential to the passing game.
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You can only fix so much in one draft and Pettine/Farmer chose tofix the running game this year and basically forgo the passing game. In today's NFL I'm not sure that philosophy isn't misguided.
I guess we'll find out.
They drafted a running back and a much needed athletic guard. They also drafted a QB. I don't see how that is solely fixing the running game and forgoing the passing game, unless you don't count the O-line and QB positions as being essential to the passing game.
They passed on WR's for a linebacker, a guard and a running back in a WR heavy draft class.
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While everyone was crying that we needed to draft a receiver Farmer was improving our O-line with a much needed guard.
Well, there were three ZBS guards available in free agency and we didn't go after them. Additionally, this year's WR draft class was exceptionally strong. Thus, while I am not saying that Bitonio was a bad pick or that we made a mistake, I think you gloating about it is preposterous, at best.
I have you on ignore, but every once in a while I have the misfortune of catching one of your inane, barbarous comments when they are quoted by someone else. Usually I ignore them completely, however since this was obviously directed at me with obnoxious intent, I decided to respond. As my comment had nothing to do with my success or achievement, I wasn't gloating, I was making the observation that Farmer made the right call in what must have been a tough decision. To save you time in the future: responding to me, since you are on ignore, is preposterous at best.
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While everyone was crying that we needed to draft a receiver Farmer was improving our O-line with a much needed guard.
If Bitonio makes our OL better then I won't complain about that.. but from what I understand, Marqise Lee, who was drafted just a couple spots after him looks really good in Jags camp so I'm not sure I would have been upset with that pick either... I'm not sure that the fact that Bitonio looks good early is any kind of vindication that it was the right pick over a WR...
I really, really wanted Lee in the 2nd ....... but I can see why they took Bitonio. I still would rather have taken Lee .....
I'm not necessarily as concerned with what team we are modeling ourselves after as much as I am concerned with what style of play and identity we seek to achieve. I know everyone is very high on the passing offense controlling the game right now, but I really see that pendulum beginning to swing the other way.
YTown used the examples of Seattle and San Fran, which are popular, but Pittsburgh began going back to that philosophy and had great success with it in the second half of last season. It just seemed with those teams that, even when defenses knew the next play was a run, the offense still couldn't be stopped. Hell, even New England began placing a renewed premium on its run game.
There's more I want say about this, but work keeps getting in the way.
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I really, really wanted Lee in the 2nd ....... but I can see why they took Bitonio. I still would rather have taken Lee .....
I think that sums up my feelings exactly. I don't run the team and I try not to cry like a little brat every time the FO goes in a different direction. Did I want Johnny Football - No. Is he decent value where we took him? Yes. Heck, I would have taken Samyy at #4 .... but I love the extra #1 pick and i love how the defense is working out with Gilbert opposite Hadden.... I actually think in 2 years Gilbert is going to be the better CB! Won't that be something if it comes true.
We needed to draft a guard far more than we needed to draft a WR, IMHO. Not saying that we couldn't have gotten a WR, but the choice seemed clear, and now it's looking like it will pay off. By all accounts, he's smart, tough and physical and will be a nice compliment to JT, Mack & Schwartz.
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You can only fix so much in one draft and Pettine/Farmer chose tofix the running game this year and basically forgo the passing game. In today's NFL I'm not sure that philosophy isn't misguided.
I guess we'll find out.
They drafted a running back and a much needed athletic guard. They also drafted a QB. I don't see how that is solely fixing the running game and forgoing the passing game, unless you don't count the O-line and QB positions as being essential to the passing game.
They passed on WR's for a linebacker, a guard and a running back in a WR heavy draft class.
Doesn't make my statement any less valid. They stuck to their board, and they did address the passing game. Perhaps not in the way you wanted, but they did address it. It looks like we picked up a viable #2 in FA, and it's highly likely we take a WR in the draft next year, IMO. You're also discounting the value of a solid RB in the passing game.
I used Seattle and San Francisco, because they are the modern teams running this philosophy in the passing era.
Pittsburgh has gotten away from that philosophy. Lats year they were 12th in passing, and 28th in rushing. That's why I left them out.
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I really, really wanted Lee in the 2nd ....... but I can see why they took Bitonio. I still would rather have taken Lee .....
We seem to agree on a lot. I felt the same way at the time, but seeing how well Bitonio is playing, I'm perfectly happy with him. During the draft, I even tried to use my prayer method (worked for Johnny Football, lol) to get Lee. I was a bit dumb struck when we drafted Bitonio, but the analysts were talking very highly on him, and I figured it made sense. We let Lava go, so I knew we'd need a guard or tackle (assuming if we got a tackle, Schwartz would move inside to guard).
Lee, has tons of talent but he also has injury issues. We needed both positions as well. I proceeded later on to start the prayer for Allen Robinson, that didn't work out either, lol. Come the third round, none of the receivers really impressed me. I did want us to trade up for Robinson though.
With this draft, is that while it was receiver heavy, the receivers were drafted early. No use reaching for players who aren't worth it. After Allen Robinson, I just didn't see a guy who could make much of an impact. At that point, absolutely no reason to make a reach.
The biggest thing is that if Bitonio takes our line to the next level, I will have no complaints. Word has it, he's supposed to play with a mean streak, and if he can do that (and help get these RBs going), it will all be worth it. I've felt our O-Line has been soft for awhile. In general, it's worked with pass blocking, but I don't think our line has done our RBs any favors. I'm really hoping Bitonio can help on that front.
The one move I would have really liked to see would have been trading our 4th to get Stevie Johnson. Petitine had to know that Johnson was available (and that's why I also try to have faith in the guy, maybe Johnson really is a huge pain in the butt). But that's the move I would have made, especially with Gordon being hurt.
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This so reminds me of the conversations that have been on the boards for years. We'll see what you guys will say in October about our WRs and offense.
Honestly I am just flabbergasted at your decision to harp on the WRs... as well as the assertions that you would have taken Jordan Matthews in the 2nd round. It seems like someone has possessed your body (or at least your username). All the way leading up to and even a little after the draft, you harped on how ridiculous everyone on this board was who suggested taking a receiver early, why the change in stance? I don't get it.
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1143054
Re: Wide Receiver Thread [Re: candyman92]
#1143054 - Fri Apr 11 2014 08:13 PM
Agreed. And we keeping thinking WRs and TEs are going to save us. It ain't working.
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1143051
Re: Wide Receiver Thread [Re: Brownoholic]
#1143051 - Fri Apr 11 2014 08:09 PM
This is a deep WR class.
We signed two FA WRs. We have Gordon. We have a TE who is like a WR.
It would be stupid to draft a WR high, but then again, we are always stupid and do it over and over and over.
And then we wonder why we can't even sniff .500.
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1136321
I have continually said that we have spent too many high picks on receivers. You see that word? Receivers. Do you see the too many high picks part? I have also said we have reached on qbs and then panicked when they didn't work out.
...
We drafted WR's such as:
1999:Kevin Johnson---very top of round 2
2000: Dennis Northcutt---top of of round 2-----------we also drafted Travis Prentice in round 2 of that draft and the WR Jujan Dawson in round 3.
2001: Quincy Morgan, another WR at the top of round 2.
2002: William Green, RB in the middle of round 1 and the WR Andre Davis in second round.
2004: K2, a TE, but really a WR at number 6 overall.
2005: Leon at number 3 overall.
2006: Travis Wilson early in round 3.
2009: Robo and MoMass in round 2.
2010: Hardesty in round 2.
2011: Greg Little in round 2.
2012: Gordon in the supplemental draft, which cost us a second round pick last year.
You don't think that is a huge investment in skill positions? Seriously?
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1128987
Re: Watkins vs Evans [Re: BpG]
#1128987 - Fri Mar 07 2014 04:51 PM
I will puke if we take yet another WR high in the draft. Man, the boards and the Browns have always been fascinated w/receivers.
Maybe because it has worked so well.
Re: Watkins vs Evans [Re: Swish]
#1129022 - Fri Mar 07 2014 06:08 PM
No, that isn't what I mean at all. We actually had good QB play that year.
What I do mean is that we have drafted Kevin Johnson, Quincy Morgan, Andre Davis, K2, Leon, Robo, MoMass, Little, and Gordon [in reality]. Did I miss anyone?
You get it now?
LOL............probably not.
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1124753
How can you make such a dumb statement?
We have spent high draft picks on receiver after receiver after receiver. Where has it gotten us?
Kevin Johnson
Q
Andre Davis
K2
Leon
Robo
MoMass
Little
Gordon
We have invested more high picks on receivers than any other position and we can't even win half our games. Yet, you want to ignore the most important position on the field once again and draft yet another "play maker."
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1153491/page/0/fpart/3/vc/1
Re: Browns select Joel Bitonio with the 35th overall pick [Re: candyman92]
#1156442 - Tue May 13 2014 07:43 PM
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Supposedly Bitonio was such a BPA that when our pick came around there was no body close to him. yeah we should have passed him up - let me guess you would have preferred us to take a WR...the most over rated position in the NFL!
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If he's BPA then draft him. If you truly think a punter is BPA, draft him.
On this site, we overrate the hell out of offensive linemen. We glorify them more than any unit in football. Yet teams with crap o-lines win super bowls like Seattle and Pittsburgh. If you want to talk defensive line, you'll have a favorable argument.
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Ridiculous post. This board overrates WRs more than anything else.
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php?...rue#Post1145812
Re: Teddy Bridgewater (...one more time....) [Re: ]
#1145812 - Mon Apr 21 2014 09:09 PM
Almost all of Brown's nations are in love w/WRs.
Probably because we have so successful by drafting them high over and over and over and over.
After all, why fix what isn't broken?
Ouch.
My comment was in relation to Sammy Watkins. I stand by it, taking a WR at #4 would have been a disaster. We didn't just not take one at 4, we didn't take one in the entire draft.....
And I have no issue with that. That post was about repeatedly harping on what a bad idea it would be to take a WR high in the draft, referencing all the top-of-the-second-round guys we have taken in the past as evidence, and now the (apparent) 180° that I don't understand.
Boom goes the hypocrisy dynamite!!
Which some seem to question given the circumstances and I believe rightfully so.
No, I'm not talking about the first round, but I'm one of those that believe Lee would have been a steal.
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I really, really wanted Lee in the 2nd ....... but I can see why they took Bitonio. I still would rather have taken Lee .....
If we had taken a WR, I would have rather had Jordan Matthews. He went to Philly and they have a better team than Jacksonville. I like the QB they took (Bortles) but I'm not sure he'll get many starts this year or, more precisely, how many starts they plan on giving him this year.
I don't think it was an act of nutrition...3 ok ZBS in FA check...WR in draft check.
I think it was about the individual. We thought (and surprise surprise so do I) Except I called it after the first round...was calling for this pick and a rarity happened...WE DID!!!
This kid is special. I am actually surprised at you Vers...touting perimeter as the way to go rather than Interior.
Need...We instead went FA with the WR...? I don't get your WR kick all of a sudden. Not you at all. And no you stating 3 FA OGs who this kid will surpass in no time. Is not going strong for OL... We've known for a long time the way to go OL is draft...the way not to go WR is draft.
Instead we chose FA WRs not FA OGs...and drafted the OG not the WR...I don't see where you are going on us missing the boat somewhere. Farmer is doing a very solid job.
jmho
I have liked both Woods and Lee for a long time. I hoped we might draft Woods, but he went to Buffalo last year. (and had a really nice season, especially given the QB shuffle in Buffalo last year) I think that Lee will also be a really good NFL WR.
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I really, really wanted Lee in the 2nd ....... but I can see why they took Bitonio. I still would rather have taken Lee .....
This is much better than your reaction shot to the pick, lol...
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1153491/an/0/page/0#Post1153491
I despise, loath, abhor, hate, and am repulsed by this pick.
What an idiotic pick. We don't need an OL .... so we take an OL. 
I take back a lot of the good I said about Farmer. This was a stupid, wasted pick.
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I really, really wanted Lee in the 2nd ....... but I can see why they took Bitonio. I still would rather have taken Lee .....
This is much better than your reaction shot to the pick, lol...
https://www.dawgtalkers.net/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/1153491/an/0/page/0#Post1153491
I despise, loath, abhor, hate, and am repulsed by this pick.
What an idiotic pick. We don't need an OL .... so we take an OL.
I take back a lot of the good I said about Farmer. This was a stupid, wasted pick.
Yeah .... I was really kinda ticked off about the pick.
I get over this stuff rather quickly though. I still would have taken Lee though.
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I have liked both Woods and Lee for a long time. I hoped we might draft Woods, but he went to Buffalo last year. (and had a really nice season, especially given the QB shuffle in Buffalo last year) I think that Lee will also be a really good NFL WR.
I have no doubt that Lee has talent and could be a very good WR in the NFL but I'm not concerned with the receiving corps that we have now. It wouldn't matter if Gordon is suspended or not. Both Miles Austin and Nate Burleson have proven that they know how to catch.
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I used Seattle and San Francisco, because they are the modern teams running this philosophy in the passing era.
Pittsburgh has gotten away from that philosophy. Lats year they were 12th in passing, and 28th in rushing. That's why I left them out.
I was really surprised to see those stats on Pittsburgh. Every time I saw them last year, it looked like they were moving back toward running the hell out of the ball. I realized that they had moved to pass-first under Arians, but I thought they really started trending back the other way with Haley.
I looked up their stats, and it does appear there were games where Roethlisberger went absolutely insane, and other games where he had little yardage, with few games of "decent" yardage.
Color me surprised.
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I have no doubt that Lee has talent and could be a very good WR in the NFL but I'm not concerned with the receiving corps that we have now. It wouldn't matter if Gordon is suspended or not. Both Miles Austin and Nate Burleson have proven that they know how to catch.
I have no concern with whether they can catch, I do have a much bigger concern with whether they can get open.
Now if Gordon gets a 4 game suspension or something, we're okay. But our WRs will look weak, especially as the season wears on (and these guys get banged up).
I'm looking at Cameron as a main target, as well as Hawkins. And I'm hoping that good offense play calling and smart QB play will help these guys out a lot. Cause it's lack of separation that makes me nervous. These guys simply aren't as athletic as they used to be.
Bring in Gordon though, and everything would have been fine. Gordon demands double coverage deep and keeps safeties in check (as well as making his normal catches). He makes everyone, from the rest of the receivers to the running backs better. Now we keep bringing up Rookie WRs and IMO there wasn't a rookie WR that would bring that anyway, but I don't expect either Austin or Burleson to be anywhere near a 1000 yard guy. Cameron and Hawkins will be big time players. After that, I think we'll be spreading the ball out a lot.
But yeah, separation. Austin and Burleson can catch the ball, but who is going to be covering them, and are they going to get open?
I didn't post it before the draft but I didn't want a receiver drafted early. That is until I heard Gordon failed a drug test. That changed my thinking quite a bit.
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I have no concern with whether they can catch, I do have a much bigger concern with whether they can get open.
That was the biggest problem the team had last year with Little and Bess. I'm glad to be comfy with the belief that our WRs can actually catch the ball more times than they drop them.
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Now if Gordon gets a 4 game suspension or something, we're okay. But our WRs will look weak, especially as the season wears on (and these guys get banged up).
I refuse to discuss Gordon until we know what is going to happen with him.
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I'm looking at Cameron as a main target, as well as Hawkins. And I'm hoping that good offense play calling and smart QB play will help these guys out a lot. Cause it's lack of separation that makes me nervous. These guys simply aren't as athletic as they used to be.
I like all of our primary TEs (Gray excepted - as they're using him as a FB). Cameron is obvious, but Dray and Barnidge are very good pass catching TEs too.
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But yeah, separation. Austin and Burleson can catch the ball, but who is going to be covering them, and are they going to get open?
They'll get their catches because we should be able to run the ball more effectively setting up the play-action passes to be successful.
This stuff isn't rocket science.
I just want to say that from 40 yards away it looks like Marquis Gray has muscles on muscles on muscles. He's the biggest guy I've seen from afar since Mark Bavaro as a child.
That's just from the Family Day on Saturday. He looks like a monster. No lie.
Did you really put all that time in to make me look bad? Seriously? With all the BS hypocritical posts on this board all the freaking time and you pick ME out? Really?
I made all those posts BEFORE the news of Gordon being suspended.
I am TOTALLY fine w/passing on Watkins in round 1, and that was MY main point in when making those arguments.
How in the hell did you miss me posting about Jordan Matthews when you took the time to do all that research? Oh, it didn't fit into your slanderous theme, so you ignored it?
How did you freaking miss me saying that it was a strong WR class several times and that we could draft one later? Let me guess, it doesn't fit w/your slanderous post?
I am not BAD-MOUTHING the Bitonio pick. I do think our WRs are awful [as a group] if Gordon is out of the picture. If he can play this year, we should be okay. I did NOT have any news on Gordon when making those posts.
You know, steve.............I have been very complimentary of you and it really saddens me that you took all that time w/only a singular purpose of discrediting me. Okay steve, I am a hypocrite and a liar, thus there really is no use for you and I to converse again. After all, I don't measure up to the high standards of all the other posters you have not challenged.
For the rest of you.........I'll stand by what I said. I have been here since 2001 and I don't lie. I am not a hypocrite. Many of you guys don't like me, but Good God...........I think even my biggest enemies from the early days know that I am not a liar or a hypocrite, and in fact, typically take the minority opinion.
Yeah tab..............I am an idiot and I never, ever get things right when it comes to the Browns. That's been proven time after time after time. I just make stuff up to suit my agenda and what I predict never ever happens.
Just blow off everything I say, because I just make crap up and don't ever try to analyze the situation and point out potential problem areas. Nah.............it's all agenda and lies.
You know what, guys...............it's as if the majority of posters wants everyone to agree. Don't dare post an alternative opinion that doesn't agree w/the majority. It doesn't matter how many freaking times that person has been proven right over the years, let's just bad mouth him like he is stupid. a liar, a hypocrite, and only posts agenda posts. I mean, he doesn't agree w/US.
And then..................when things play out and this person points out what people have said, they get all mad and lambaste him for talking about it. Wow!
Actually, your biggest problem is how you brag, and how you discredit others.
Actually, I have rarely bragged in the past. I remember when Leon was finally let go, tab says to me that I should be celebrating because I was finally proven right. I replied that I was actually depressed, because the entire time I was hoping the dude would prove me wrong.
I only brought it up this past year because frankly, I am sick of how many people mock me for my opinions, and then when reality plays out, they ignore all that was said and instead start in on some new crusade. You really don't remember all the grief I took last year over TRich and Weeden and our offense? Really?
I don't freaking lie, arch. I know you don't like me...........but, you have never seen me lie. I am not hypocritical about things. I state things the way I see them. I am not saying I am right all the time, and I do admit when I am wrong. It upsets me a great deal when people question my character. My character is very important to me. I am not saying anyone has to like me, but I am not a freaking liar or a hypocrite. I state what I freaking believe.
I am very angry right now. A liar and hypocrite? Freaking BS!!!
Let's talk football. So Bitonio looks to be the favorite to start at LG. In your typical offense the LG does more pulling while the RG is more of a road grader, right? So how do those roles change in Shanny's zone blocking scheme? Do you see a lot of individuals pulling or is there more movement in unison based of off timing?
You are right. And in ZBS you still need your LG to be the more athletic of the two. That is probably why Bionio was put there and Grecco was moved to RG. I always thought Grecco at 6'5 was too tall to play LG. Btw---how tall is Bitonio? Anyways, since Bitonio played a lot of LT, he probably has pretty decent feet. I have read that he does have pretty good feet, so that makes sense.
In ZBS, you have to be able to gap block. Some call it angle blocking. That is where your first step is at a 45 degree angle and you take the next man down. You have to get your face across the defenders body, ideally putting your facemask in his opposite arm pit and then taking your trailing arm and raising it like a chicken wing and steering your man out of the play.
There is also a lot of trap blocking in ZBS's. I loved trap blocking because you are going two men down the LOS and you can stick your helmet into their earhole, because they are already engaged by another O-linemen. I will say that tackles opposite of the play side are the ones who generally do more trap blocking.
The biggest thing about guards in a ZBS is that they typically fire off and double team a defender w/either the C or the T, and they then slide off and pick up a guy at the second level. Obviously, that is usually a LBer, but safeties are also targets when they are crowding the los. Therefore, you need your guards to be quick enough to get there, agile enough not to get caught up in traffic, smart enough to read the defense, and to be technically sound because none of the rest will matter if they play too upright. I will discuss this further if anyone wants to, but they probably won't. It's much more fun and productive to pick out individual posts that are taken out of context while ignoring others in order to paint a negative picture of someone you don't FREAKING agree with.
Oh...........I'm sorry Varmint. Thanks for trying to make this more about football than personal attacks. I appreciate it, but I am still angry right now. But, it would be wrong not to thank you for trying.
Bitonio is listed at 6'4 305
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That was the biggest problem the team had last year with Little and Bess. I'm glad to be comfy with the belief that our WRs can actually catch the ball more times than they drop them.
Sure, but I do wonder if Little and Bess were more athletic than them.
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They'll get their catches because we should be able to run the ball more effectively setting up the play-action passes to be successful.
This stuff isn't rocket science.
Sure, and when they load up the box and it's 3rd down and 8, what are we going to do then? Play action pass again? That isn't going to be working.
Receivers need to be able to do two things, 1) Get separation and 2) Catch the ball.
You can't just create separation with play action passing all day. Now solid QB play, play action, and solid play calling definitely helps (as is shown regularly by Brady and back in the day Donavan McNabb), but your receivers still have to get open. Otherwise, every team that's decent at running the ball would have washed up older receivers.
Guys like that Oklahoma State Receiver who came the same year as Brandon Weeden would have a place in this league. And that's just not the case. The DBs in the NFL are quicker, therefore the WRs have to be quicker.
So you might not feel that way, but I do think that seeing if Burleson and Austin are able to get separation is key to their success and the success of our offense.
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I will discuss this further if anyone wants to
Great information, now that's pure football. So is a ZBS more effective against 3 or 4 man fronts? How does it stack up against a defense that runs a lot of stunts? How about the wide-9 look that some teams seem to be bringing in from time to time?
The wide 9 a lot of teams like using is incredilbly vulnerable to the wide stretch Shannahan zone scheme. They put that DE out wide basically you are gonna have the OT seal out and force the DE to go upfield and then try to come back for the tackle and if he does, the OT is just gonna let him go and force the DE to make the superman play or now you have the Running back shooting the gap with a big 320 lb OT out in front. the wide 9 really helps the zone scheme to do what they want to do.
Remember they are wanting to stretch that front 7 out as far as they and make them chase, get cut get up and chase again. Gain 3 yards, gain 2 yards bust one for 60. System however sucks bad in short yardage lol.
Oo and Vers a lot of the Jordan Mathews stuff we talked about in private and i dont know how much we posted but I loved the guy at Vandy and then when i heard that they were looking for Carr and Mathews at the senior bowl at 5am and they were out working on their timing. You cant teach that.
You made your bed by admitting that you are a contrarian. Don't complain when your words come back to haunt you as you may have been playing the devil's advocate.
Toasty as it may be...
VarmintKong ... that is one of the best handles I've seen on here.
It was simple for me because of play progression, andI might be guilty of oversimplification or excess logic. We rounded up some wideouts post-draft. I saw taking Bitonio as a sensible move (but I was hoping for Watkins, so a bit disappointed).
Browns have had a turnstile on the frontline at its worst. If you can't keep the D out, you can't consistently use a WR well. First things first. OL is seldom a sexy choice, but what receiver would you have instead of Thomas? I have no regrets there. Fix some stuff (or try to do so) well. We have improved (I hope) with Bitonio.
Killer handle! Welcome aboard!
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Sure, but I do wonder if Little and Bess were more athletic than them.
I don't know what you mean - all I'm concerned about is performance. Judging from their careers, it's an upgrade either way and.
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Sure, and when they load up the box and it's 3rd down and 8, what are we going to do then? Play action pass again? That isn't going to be working.
The trick is to stay out of 3rd & 8. If you find yourself in that position, you can pass it underneath or to a TE. There will be a mismatch somewhere. Find it.
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Receivers need to be able to do two things, 1) Get separation and 2) Catch the ball.
They only need to catch the ball. Getting separation is just a bonus.
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You can't just create separation with play action passing all day. Now solid QB play, play action, and solid play calling definitely helps (as is shown regularly by Brady and back in the day Donavan McNabb), but your receivers still have to get open. Otherwise, every team that's decent at running the ball would have washed up older receivers.
You don't have to. You mix things up by passing on running downs. You run on passing downs. You put two TE sets out there. We have guys that can catch the ball. The job is simply to get it to them.
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Guys like that Oklahoma State Receiver who came the same year as Brandon Weeden would have a place in this league. And that's just not the case. The DBs in the NFL are quicker, therefore the WRs have to be quicker.
Justin Blackmon has drug problems and is serving a ban for a year.
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So you might not feel that way, but I do think that seeing if Burleson and Austin are able to get separation is key to their success and the success of our offense.
Both Burleson and Austin have done it in their careers. Why do you seem to think that they suddenly cannot do it now?
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The wide 9 a lot of teams like using is incredilbly vulnerable to the wide stretch Shannahan zone scheme. They put that DE out wide basically you are gonna have the OT seal out and force the DE to go upfield and then try to come back for the tackle and if he does, the OT is just gonna let him go and force the DE to make the superman play or now you have the Running back shooting the gap with a big 320 lb OT out in front. the wide 9 really helps the zone scheme to do what they want to do.
Remember they are wanting to stretch that front 7 out as far as they and make them chase, get cut get up and chase again. Gain 3 yards, gain 2 yards bust one for 60. System however sucks bad in short yardage lol.
Oo and Vers a lot of the Jordan Mathews stuff we talked about in private and i dont know how much we posted but I loved the guy at Vandy and then when i heard that they were looking for Carr and Mathews at the senior bowl at 5am and they were out working on their timing. You cant teach that.
As a side note, I just have to ask, is it called the "Wide 9" because the DEs are supposedly 9 technique?
Anyhow, I like the discussion. I think it's pretty obvious at this point that Bitonio is going to be starting at LG. I've done it before, but I'm going to stick my neck out again for Gilkey. I know he struggled when he saw playing time toward the end of the year, but I think his flaws can definitely be overcome by teaching. In the more vanilla defenses and blocking scheme of last preseason, I saw him get the best of Ndamukong Suh in one on one matchups. I also think he can get to the second level quickly, which is important for this scheme.
That being said, I do think Greco will be the better player this year, but I expect Gilkey to be a solid starter eventually.
Anyhow, this isn't a Gilkey thread. I do like Bitonio and hope we can recreate the magic of our '07 - '10 left side when we had Steiny in there.
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It was simple for me because of play progression, andI might be guilty of oversimplification or excess logic. We rounded up some wideouts post-draft. I saw taking Bitonio as a sensible move (but I was hoping for Watkins, so a bit disappointed).
Browns have had a turnstile on the frontline at its worst. If you can't keep the D out, you can't consistently use a WR well. First things first. OL is seldom a sexy choice, but what receiver would you have instead of Thomas? I have no regrets there. Fix some stuff (or try to do so) well. We have improved (I hope) with Bitonio.
It is early, and only time will really tell, but early reports are very encouraging. I'll be trying to watch him at the game Saturday and at camp Monday, though typically my eyes go to the QB.
Technically speaking the wide 9 is a myth lol. the 9 technique is just to the outside shoulder of the OT. The wide 9 focuses on getting outside the reach of the tackle where fully extended he is lucky to get a paw on the defender. IMHO its one of the silliest concepts the NFL has ever come up with but it works cause teams are so focused on passing that they dont take advantage of the huge gaping holes in the run game.
Shannahan's zone scheme is a nightmare for the the wide 9 philosophy. It does half the work for them.
I think this competition will be tight between Greco and Gilkey. I have seen some of those blocks from Gilkey in camp and he is opening some holes in the run game. Now obviously Greco is farther along in pass blocking but it will be interesting.
I also like what I am seeing from Bitonio. I heard something yesterday about bitonio giving up 2 sacks in his college career. Considering he played the majority of his time at LT thats pretty damn impressive.
I thought 5 was to the outside shoulder of the Tackle???
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Yeah tab..............I am an idiot and I never, ever get things right when it comes to the Browns. That's been proven time after time after time. I just make stuff up to suit my agenda and what I predict never ever happens.
Just blow off everything I say, because I just make crap up and don't ever try to analyze the situation and point out potential problem areas. Nah.............it's all agenda and lies.
That's what you got from my post... 
my bad thought we were going to have a football discussion. My apologies for stating I think Farmer has been solid... silly me, your way or the highway... 
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Technically speaking the wide 9 is a myth lol. the 9 technique is just to the outside shoulder of the OT. The wide 9 focuses on getting outside the reach of the tackle where fully extended he is lucky to get a paw on the defender. IMHO its one of the silliest concepts the NFL has ever come up with but it works cause teams are so focused on passing that they dont take advantage of the huge gaping holes in the run game.
Shannahan's zone scheme is a nightmare for the the wide 9 philosophy. It does half the work for them.
Hopefully you're right about Shannahan's scheme. I'm wondering why more Offensive Co-ordinators don't realize that, with defenses concentrating on passing schemes, and putting players on the field who have more speed than bulk, that they don't crank up a running game to take advantage of it.
Just like in military tech / tactics, the best 'new' scheme is the one that takes advantage of current weaknesses in opponent's present defense. Then once they wise up and make adjustments, switch back to the 'old' scheme to take advantage of the 'new' adjustments.
I agree with you, and I think it's why we are starting to see a shift.
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Yeah tab..............I am an idiot and I never, ever get things right when it comes to the Browns. That's been proven time after time after time. I just make stuff up to suit my agenda and what I predict never ever happens.
Just blow off everything I say, because I just make crap up and don't ever try to analyze the situation and point out potential problem areas. Nah.............it's all agenda and lies.
That's what you got from my post... my bad thought we were going to have a football discussion. My apologies for stating I think Farmer has been solid... silly me, your way or the highway...
Yes, that is what I got, especially after reading that BS from steve.
You say this:
[quote I am actually surprised at you Vers...touting perimeter as the way to go rather than Interior.
and
I don't get your WR kick all of a sudden. Not you at all. don't see where you are going on us missing the boat somewhere. Farmer is doing a very solid job.]
I never said we should go all out w/WRs. In fact, I clearly argued that we should NOT draft Watkins at number 4. I did say that it was a deep WR class and that we could grab one later.
But tab, all of that was before I knew about Gordon getting popped again. I still would not have drafted a WR in round one. I may have drafted a WR in round 2, but I am okay w/the Bitonio pick since we ignored the OL in FA. I do think we should have certainly drafted a WR at some point.
NO, I am not huge on WRs, but man, do you remember some of the problems we have had in the past because our WRs couldn't get open and/or catch consistently? Sheesh, just because I don't salivate over WRs doesn't mean that they aren't part of the team. Our WRs are pathetic as a group [if Gordon misses time.]
I am NOT down on the FO. I am trying to talk football and I resent when you act like I am making stuff up because I don't like Farmer. It isn't even true. I am neutral right now. He's done some good things and there are things I would have done differently. Big deal. Why the hell can't I talk about it?
Dang, I am so sick of everyone having to agree or be ridiculed. My history speaks for myself. Sheesh tab..........we just went through this AGAIN for the umpeenth time last year w/TRich and Weeden. I am always making stuff up according to you guys. Hell, even peen said I was goofy and didn't make any sense. This coming from the guy w/a sig that suggests that different opinions are a GOOD thing. And they freaking are.
I NEVER said that I believe in building a team from the outside/in. Heck, I am the guy who coined the phrase on the boards of building it inside/out. Do you remember that conversation after we drafted Leon? Remember how full of crap you told me I was. Look, I hate bringing that stuff up, but it's time you at least respect my opinion. I am NOT asking you to agree. Not asking anyone to agree. But, if I make a freaking point about something, it isn't about an agenda or because I hate the FO.............it's because it is a real freaking concern. And btw...........I am still so freaking mad about the crap that steve pulled. Freaking chicken crap.
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I will discuss this further if anyone wants to
Great information, now that's pure football. So is a ZBS more effective against 3 or 4 man fronts? How does it stack up against a defense that runs a lot of stunts? How about the wide-9 look that some teams seem to be bringing in from time to time?
I appreciate you trying to get this back to football. I apologize, but I am still really mad. I stayed off the board all day because I was so mad, thought I was cool, but reading that crap again........sorry....I am mad.
I apologize to you. I see what you are doing and it's a cool thing to do.
I don't know much about the Wide -9, but it looks like Mourg does and I will defer to him.
As far as which defense it is more effective against, I will say I truly don't know. You have to remember that while my team used a ZBS, we were a high school team and we faced a lot of heavy fronts. Hard to compare to the NFL. I have researched it as much as I could, because a few years ago I made a thread about ZBS, and it was a great thread because so many people contributed and we didn't have the typical bickering on it. But, I never really found a conclusive answer about what you are asking. I don't wanna make things up, so I will just say I don't know. Maybe someone else does.
Now, I do know that one of the reasons the ZBS was developed was to offset all the stunts, slants, twists, X's, etc that defenses began using to confuse the offensive lines. So, I would say that the ZBS would be better against teams like Pittsburgh and Baltimore, but maybe not so much New England's 3-4. I think the same would be true of 4-3 defenses.......teams that have d-coordinators that like to run a lot of stunts and such might get trapped a lot, while teams that are more conservative and really honor their gap responsibility would have more success. I am not positive on that one, but it makes sense from a schematic lens.
thanks for coming back w/football. I hate when we argue! we can disagree just not take it to the throw things at each other stuff. 
I'll come back with football later. Got to go for a while.