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I have liked both Woods and Lee for a long time. I hoped we might draft Woods, but he went to Buffalo last year. (and had a really nice season, especially given the QB shuffle in Buffalo last year) I think that Lee will also be a really good NFL WR.
I have no doubt that Lee has talent and could be a very good WR in the NFL but I'm not concerned with the receiving corps that we have now. It wouldn't matter if Gordon is suspended or not. Both Miles Austin and Nate Burleson have proven that they know how to catch.
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I used Seattle and San Francisco, because they are the modern teams running this philosophy in the passing era.
Pittsburgh has gotten away from that philosophy. Lats year they were 12th in passing, and 28th in rushing. That's why I left them out.
I was really surprised to see those stats on Pittsburgh. Every time I saw them last year, it looked like they were moving back toward running the hell out of the ball. I realized that they had moved to pass-first under Arians, but I thought they really started trending back the other way with Haley.
I looked up their stats, and it does appear there were games where Roethlisberger went absolutely insane, and other games where he had little yardage, with few games of "decent" yardage.
Color me surprised.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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I have no doubt that Lee has talent and could be a very good WR in the NFL but I'm not concerned with the receiving corps that we have now. It wouldn't matter if Gordon is suspended or not. Both Miles Austin and Nate Burleson have proven that they know how to catch.
I have no concern with whether they can catch, I do have a much bigger concern with whether they can get open.
Now if Gordon gets a 4 game suspension or something, we're okay. But our WRs will look weak, especially as the season wears on (and these guys get banged up).
I'm looking at Cameron as a main target, as well as Hawkins. And I'm hoping that good offense play calling and smart QB play will help these guys out a lot. Cause it's lack of separation that makes me nervous. These guys simply aren't as athletic as they used to be.
Bring in Gordon though, and everything would have been fine. Gordon demands double coverage deep and keeps safeties in check (as well as making his normal catches). He makes everyone, from the rest of the receivers to the running backs better. Now we keep bringing up Rookie WRs and IMO there wasn't a rookie WR that would bring that anyway, but I don't expect either Austin or Burleson to be anywhere near a 1000 yard guy. Cameron and Hawkins will be big time players. After that, I think we'll be spreading the ball out a lot.
But yeah, separation. Austin and Burleson can catch the ball, but who is going to be covering them, and are they going to get open?
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I didn't post it before the draft but I didn't want a receiver drafted early. That is until I heard Gordon failed a drug test. That changed my thinking quite a bit.
Last edited by Pdawg; 08/05/14 03:16 PM.
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I have no concern with whether they can catch, I do have a much bigger concern with whether they can get open.
That was the biggest problem the team had last year with Little and Bess. I'm glad to be comfy with the belief that our WRs can actually catch the ball more times than they drop them.
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Now if Gordon gets a 4 game suspension or something, we're okay. But our WRs will look weak, especially as the season wears on (and these guys get banged up).
I refuse to discuss Gordon until we know what is going to happen with him.
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I'm looking at Cameron as a main target, as well as Hawkins. And I'm hoping that good offense play calling and smart QB play will help these guys out a lot. Cause it's lack of separation that makes me nervous. These guys simply aren't as athletic as they used to be.
I like all of our primary TEs (Gray excepted - as they're using him as a FB). Cameron is obvious, but Dray and Barnidge are very good pass catching TEs too.
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But yeah, separation. Austin and Burleson can catch the ball, but who is going to be covering them, and are they going to get open?
They'll get their catches because we should be able to run the ball more effectively setting up the play-action passes to be successful.
This stuff isn't rocket science.
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I just want to say that from 40 yards away it looks like Marquis Gray has muscles on muscles on muscles. He's the biggest guy I've seen from afar since Mark Bavaro as a child.
That's just from the Family Day on Saturday. He looks like a monster. No lie.
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Did you really put all that time in to make me look bad? Seriously? With all the BS hypocritical posts on this board all the freaking time and you pick ME out? Really? I made all those posts BEFORE the news of Gordon being suspended. I am TOTALLY fine w/passing on Watkins in round 1, and that was MY main point in when making those arguments. How in the hell did you miss me posting about Jordan Matthews when you took the time to do all that research? Oh, it didn't fit into your slanderous theme, so you ignored it? How did you freaking miss me saying that it was a strong WR class several times and that we could draft one later? Let me guess, it doesn't fit w/your slanderous post? I am not BAD-MOUTHING the Bitonio pick. I do think our WRs are awful [as a group] if Gordon is out of the picture. If he can play this year, we should be okay. I did NOT have any news on Gordon when making those posts. You know, steve.............I have been very complimentary of you and it really saddens me that you took all that time w/only a singular purpose of discrediting me. Okay steve, I am a hypocrite and a liar, thus there really is no use for you and I to converse again. After all, I don't measure up to the high standards of all the other posters you have not challenged. For the rest of you.........I'll stand by what I said. I have been here since 2001 and I don't lie. I am not a hypocrite. Many of you guys don't like me, but Good God...........I think even my biggest enemies from the early days know that I am not a liar or a hypocrite, and in fact, typically take the minority opinion. 
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Yeah tab..............I am an idiot and I never, ever get things right when it comes to the Browns. That's been proven time after time after time. I just make stuff up to suit my agenda and what I predict never ever happens.
Just blow off everything I say, because I just make crap up and don't ever try to analyze the situation and point out potential problem areas. Nah.............it's all agenda and lies.
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You know what, guys...............it's as if the majority of posters wants everyone to agree. Don't dare post an alternative opinion that doesn't agree w/the majority. It doesn't matter how many freaking times that person has been proven right over the years, let's just bad mouth him like he is stupid. a liar, a hypocrite, and only posts agenda posts. I mean, he doesn't agree w/US.
And then..................when things play out and this person points out what people have said, they get all mad and lambaste him for talking about it. Wow!
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Actually, your biggest problem is how you brag, and how you discredit others.
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Actually, I have rarely bragged in the past. I remember when Leon was finally let go, tab says to me that I should be celebrating because I was finally proven right. I replied that I was actually depressed, because the entire time I was hoping the dude would prove me wrong.
I only brought it up this past year because frankly, I am sick of how many people mock me for my opinions, and then when reality plays out, they ignore all that was said and instead start in on some new crusade. You really don't remember all the grief I took last year over TRich and Weeden and our offense? Really?
I don't freaking lie, arch. I know you don't like me...........but, you have never seen me lie. I am not hypocritical about things. I state things the way I see them. I am not saying I am right all the time, and I do admit when I am wrong. It upsets me a great deal when people question my character. My character is very important to me. I am not saying anyone has to like me, but I am not a freaking liar or a hypocrite. I state what I freaking believe.
I am very angry right now. A liar and hypocrite? Freaking BS!!!
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Let's talk football. So Bitonio looks to be the favorite to start at LG. In your typical offense the LG does more pulling while the RG is more of a road grader, right? So how do those roles change in Shanny's zone blocking scheme? Do you see a lot of individuals pulling or is there more movement in unison based of off timing?
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You are right. And in ZBS you still need your LG to be the more athletic of the two. That is probably why Bionio was put there and Grecco was moved to RG. I always thought Grecco at 6'5 was too tall to play LG. Btw---how tall is Bitonio? Anyways, since Bitonio played a lot of LT, he probably has pretty decent feet. I have read that he does have pretty good feet, so that makes sense.
In ZBS, you have to be able to gap block. Some call it angle blocking. That is where your first step is at a 45 degree angle and you take the next man down. You have to get your face across the defenders body, ideally putting your facemask in his opposite arm pit and then taking your trailing arm and raising it like a chicken wing and steering your man out of the play.
There is also a lot of trap blocking in ZBS's. I loved trap blocking because you are going two men down the LOS and you can stick your helmet into their earhole, because they are already engaged by another O-linemen. I will say that tackles opposite of the play side are the ones who generally do more trap blocking.
The biggest thing about guards in a ZBS is that they typically fire off and double team a defender w/either the C or the T, and they then slide off and pick up a guy at the second level. Obviously, that is usually a LBer, but safeties are also targets when they are crowding the los. Therefore, you need your guards to be quick enough to get there, agile enough not to get caught up in traffic, smart enough to read the defense, and to be technically sound because none of the rest will matter if they play too upright. I will discuss this further if anyone wants to, but they probably won't. It's much more fun and productive to pick out individual posts that are taken out of context while ignoring others in order to paint a negative picture of someone you don't FREAKING agree with.
Oh...........I'm sorry Varmint. Thanks for trying to make this more about football than personal attacks. I appreciate it, but I am still angry right now. But, it would be wrong not to thank you for trying.
Last edited by Versatile Dog; 08/05/14 09:08 PM.
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Bitonio is listed at 6'4 305
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That was the biggest problem the team had last year with Little and Bess. I'm glad to be comfy with the belief that our WRs can actually catch the ball more times than they drop them.
Sure, but I do wonder if Little and Bess were more athletic than them.
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They'll get their catches because we should be able to run the ball more effectively setting up the play-action passes to be successful.
This stuff isn't rocket science.
Sure, and when they load up the box and it's 3rd down and 8, what are we going to do then? Play action pass again? That isn't going to be working.
Receivers need to be able to do two things, 1) Get separation and 2) Catch the ball.
You can't just create separation with play action passing all day. Now solid QB play, play action, and solid play calling definitely helps (as is shown regularly by Brady and back in the day Donavan McNabb), but your receivers still have to get open. Otherwise, every team that's decent at running the ball would have washed up older receivers.
Guys like that Oklahoma State Receiver who came the same year as Brandon Weeden would have a place in this league. And that's just not the case. The DBs in the NFL are quicker, therefore the WRs have to be quicker.
So you might not feel that way, but I do think that seeing if Burleson and Austin are able to get separation is key to their success and the success of our offense.
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I will discuss this further if anyone wants to
Great information, now that's pure football. So is a ZBS more effective against 3 or 4 man fronts? How does it stack up against a defense that runs a lot of stunts? How about the wide-9 look that some teams seem to be bringing in from time to time?
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The wide 9 a lot of teams like using is incredilbly vulnerable to the wide stretch Shannahan zone scheme. They put that DE out wide basically you are gonna have the OT seal out and force the DE to go upfield and then try to come back for the tackle and if he does, the OT is just gonna let him go and force the DE to make the superman play or now you have the Running back shooting the gap with a big 320 lb OT out in front. the wide 9 really helps the zone scheme to do what they want to do.
Remember they are wanting to stretch that front 7 out as far as they and make them chase, get cut get up and chase again. Gain 3 yards, gain 2 yards bust one for 60. System however sucks bad in short yardage lol.
Oo and Vers a lot of the Jordan Mathews stuff we talked about in private and i dont know how much we posted but I loved the guy at Vandy and then when i heard that they were looking for Carr and Mathews at the senior bowl at 5am and they were out working on their timing. You cant teach that.
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You made your bed by admitting that you are a contrarian. Don't complain when your words come back to haunt you as you may have been playing the devil's advocate.
Toasty as it may be...
There will be no playoffs. Can’t play with who we have out there and compounding it with garbage playcalling and worse execution. We don’t have good skill players on offense period. Browns 20 - Bears 17.
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VarmintKong ... that is one of the best handles I've seen on here.
How does a league celebrating its 100th season only recognize the 53 most recent championships?
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It was simple for me because of play progression, andI might be guilty of oversimplification or excess logic. We rounded up some wideouts post-draft. I saw taking Bitonio as a sensible move (but I was hoping for Watkins, so a bit disappointed).
Browns have had a turnstile on the frontline at its worst. If you can't keep the D out, you can't consistently use a WR well. First things first. OL is seldom a sexy choice, but what receiver would you have instead of Thomas? I have no regrets there. Fix some stuff (or try to do so) well. We have improved (I hope) with Bitonio.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Legend
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Killer handle! Welcome aboard!
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Sure, but I do wonder if Little and Bess were more athletic than them.
I don't know what you mean - all I'm concerned about is performance. Judging from their careers, it's an upgrade either way and.
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Sure, and when they load up the box and it's 3rd down and 8, what are we going to do then? Play action pass again? That isn't going to be working.
The trick is to stay out of 3rd & 8. If you find yourself in that position, you can pass it underneath or to a TE. There will be a mismatch somewhere. Find it.
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Receivers need to be able to do two things, 1) Get separation and 2) Catch the ball.
They only need to catch the ball. Getting separation is just a bonus.
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You can't just create separation with play action passing all day. Now solid QB play, play action, and solid play calling definitely helps (as is shown regularly by Brady and back in the day Donavan McNabb), but your receivers still have to get open. Otherwise, every team that's decent at running the ball would have washed up older receivers.
You don't have to. You mix things up by passing on running downs. You run on passing downs. You put two TE sets out there. We have guys that can catch the ball. The job is simply to get it to them.
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Guys like that Oklahoma State Receiver who came the same year as Brandon Weeden would have a place in this league. And that's just not the case. The DBs in the NFL are quicker, therefore the WRs have to be quicker.
Justin Blackmon has drug problems and is serving a ban for a year.
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So you might not feel that way, but I do think that seeing if Burleson and Austin are able to get separation is key to their success and the success of our offense.
Both Burleson and Austin have done it in their careers. Why do you seem to think that they suddenly cannot do it now?
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The wide 9 a lot of teams like using is incredilbly vulnerable to the wide stretch Shannahan zone scheme. They put that DE out wide basically you are gonna have the OT seal out and force the DE to go upfield and then try to come back for the tackle and if he does, the OT is just gonna let him go and force the DE to make the superman play or now you have the Running back shooting the gap with a big 320 lb OT out in front. the wide 9 really helps the zone scheme to do what they want to do.
Remember they are wanting to stretch that front 7 out as far as they and make them chase, get cut get up and chase again. Gain 3 yards, gain 2 yards bust one for 60. System however sucks bad in short yardage lol.
Oo and Vers a lot of the Jordan Mathews stuff we talked about in private and i dont know how much we posted but I loved the guy at Vandy and then when i heard that they were looking for Carr and Mathews at the senior bowl at 5am and they were out working on their timing. You cant teach that.
As a side note, I just have to ask, is it called the "Wide 9" because the DEs are supposedly 9 technique?
Anyhow, I like the discussion. I think it's pretty obvious at this point that Bitonio is going to be starting at LG. I've done it before, but I'm going to stick my neck out again for Gilkey. I know he struggled when he saw playing time toward the end of the year, but I think his flaws can definitely be overcome by teaching. In the more vanilla defenses and blocking scheme of last preseason, I saw him get the best of Ndamukong Suh in one on one matchups. I also think he can get to the second level quickly, which is important for this scheme.
That being said, I do think Greco will be the better player this year, but I expect Gilkey to be a solid starter eventually.
Anyhow, this isn't a Gilkey thread. I do like Bitonio and hope we can recreate the magic of our '07 - '10 left side when we had Steiny in there.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Quote:
It was simple for me because of play progression, andI might be guilty of oversimplification or excess logic. We rounded up some wideouts post-draft. I saw taking Bitonio as a sensible move (but I was hoping for Watkins, so a bit disappointed).
Browns have had a turnstile on the frontline at its worst. If you can't keep the D out, you can't consistently use a WR well. First things first. OL is seldom a sexy choice, but what receiver would you have instead of Thomas? I have no regrets there. Fix some stuff (or try to do so) well. We have improved (I hope) with Bitonio.
It is early, and only time will really tell, but early reports are very encouraging. I'll be trying to watch him at the game Saturday and at camp Monday, though typically my eyes go to the QB. 
![[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]](https://i.imgur.com/hfMNC7T.jpg) "I am undeterred and I am undaunted." --Kevin Stefanski "Big hairy American winning machines." --Baker Mayfield #gmstrong
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Technically speaking the wide 9 is a myth lol. the 9 technique is just to the outside shoulder of the OT. The wide 9 focuses on getting outside the reach of the tackle where fully extended he is lucky to get a paw on the defender. IMHO its one of the silliest concepts the NFL has ever come up with but it works cause teams are so focused on passing that they dont take advantage of the huge gaping holes in the run game.
Shannahan's zone scheme is a nightmare for the the wide 9 philosophy. It does half the work for them.
I think this competition will be tight between Greco and Gilkey. I have seen some of those blocks from Gilkey in camp and he is opening some holes in the run game. Now obviously Greco is farther along in pass blocking but it will be interesting.
I also like what I am seeing from Bitonio. I heard something yesterday about bitonio giving up 2 sacks in his college career. Considering he played the majority of his time at LT thats pretty damn impressive.
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I thought 5 was to the outside shoulder of the Tackle???
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Yeah tab..............I am an idiot and I never, ever get things right when it comes to the Browns. That's been proven time after time after time. I just make stuff up to suit my agenda and what I predict never ever happens.
Just blow off everything I say, because I just make crap up and don't ever try to analyze the situation and point out potential problem areas. Nah.............it's all agenda and lies.
That's what you got from my post...  my bad thought we were going to have a football discussion. My apologies for stating I think Farmer has been solid... silly me, your way or the highway... 
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
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Technically speaking the wide 9 is a myth lol. the 9 technique is just to the outside shoulder of the OT. The wide 9 focuses on getting outside the reach of the tackle where fully extended he is lucky to get a paw on the defender. IMHO its one of the silliest concepts the NFL has ever come up with but it works cause teams are so focused on passing that they dont take advantage of the huge gaping holes in the run game.
Shannahan's zone scheme is a nightmare for the the wide 9 philosophy. It does half the work for them.
Hopefully you're right about Shannahan's scheme. I'm wondering why more Offensive Co-ordinators don't realize that, with defenses concentrating on passing schemes, and putting players on the field who have more speed than bulk, that they don't crank up a running game to take advantage of it.
Just like in military tech / tactics, the best 'new' scheme is the one that takes advantage of current weaknesses in opponent's present defense. Then once they wise up and make adjustments, switch back to the 'old' scheme to take advantage of the 'new' adjustments.
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I agree with you, and I think it's why we are starting to see a shift.
Blue ostriches on crack float on milkshakes between the sidewalk titans of gurglefitz. --YTown
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Quote:
Quote:
Yeah tab..............I am an idiot and I never, ever get things right when it comes to the Browns. That's been proven time after time after time. I just make stuff up to suit my agenda and what I predict never ever happens.
Just blow off everything I say, because I just make crap up and don't ever try to analyze the situation and point out potential problem areas. Nah.............it's all agenda and lies.
That's what you got from my post... my bad thought we were going to have a football discussion. My apologies for stating I think Farmer has been solid... silly me, your way or the highway...
Yes, that is what I got, especially after reading that BS from steve.
You say this:
[quote I am actually surprised at you Vers...touting perimeter as the way to go rather than Interior.
and
I don't get your WR kick all of a sudden. Not you at all. don't see where you are going on us missing the boat somewhere. Farmer is doing a very solid job.]
I never said we should go all out w/WRs. In fact, I clearly argued that we should NOT draft Watkins at number 4. I did say that it was a deep WR class and that we could grab one later.
But tab, all of that was before I knew about Gordon getting popped again. I still would not have drafted a WR in round one. I may have drafted a WR in round 2, but I am okay w/the Bitonio pick since we ignored the OL in FA. I do think we should have certainly drafted a WR at some point.
NO, I am not huge on WRs, but man, do you remember some of the problems we have had in the past because our WRs couldn't get open and/or catch consistently? Sheesh, just because I don't salivate over WRs doesn't mean that they aren't part of the team. Our WRs are pathetic as a group [if Gordon misses time.]
I am NOT down on the FO. I am trying to talk football and I resent when you act like I am making stuff up because I don't like Farmer. It isn't even true. I am neutral right now. He's done some good things and there are things I would have done differently. Big deal. Why the hell can't I talk about it?
Dang, I am so sick of everyone having to agree or be ridiculed. My history speaks for myself. Sheesh tab..........we just went through this AGAIN for the umpeenth time last year w/TRich and Weeden. I am always making stuff up according to you guys. Hell, even peen said I was goofy and didn't make any sense. This coming from the guy w/a sig that suggests that different opinions are a GOOD thing. And they freaking are.
I NEVER said that I believe in building a team from the outside/in. Heck, I am the guy who coined the phrase on the boards of building it inside/out. Do you remember that conversation after we drafted Leon? Remember how full of crap you told me I was. Look, I hate bringing that stuff up, but it's time you at least respect my opinion. I am NOT asking you to agree. Not asking anyone to agree. But, if I make a freaking point about something, it isn't about an agenda or because I hate the FO.............it's because it is a real freaking concern. And btw...........I am still so freaking mad about the crap that steve pulled. Freaking chicken crap.
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Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 Likes: 906
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 55,499 Likes: 906 |
Quote:
Quote:
I will discuss this further if anyone wants to
Great information, now that's pure football. So is a ZBS more effective against 3 or 4 man fronts? How does it stack up against a defense that runs a lot of stunts? How about the wide-9 look that some teams seem to be bringing in from time to time?
I appreciate you trying to get this back to football. I apologize, but I am still really mad. I stayed off the board all day because I was so mad, thought I was cool, but reading that crap again........sorry....I am mad.
I apologize to you. I see what you are doing and it's a cool thing to do.
I don't know much about the Wide -9, but it looks like Mourg does and I will defer to him.
As far as which defense it is more effective against, I will say I truly don't know. You have to remember that while my team used a ZBS, we were a high school team and we faced a lot of heavy fronts. Hard to compare to the NFL. I have researched it as much as I could, because a few years ago I made a thread about ZBS, and it was a great thread because so many people contributed and we didn't have the typical bickering on it. But, I never really found a conclusive answer about what you are asking. I don't wanna make things up, so I will just say I don't know. Maybe someone else does.
Now, I do know that one of the reasons the ZBS was developed was to offset all the stunts, slants, twists, X's, etc that defenses began using to confuse the offensive lines. So, I would say that the ZBS would be better against teams like Pittsburgh and Baltimore, but maybe not so much New England's 3-4. I think the same would be true of 4-3 defenses.......teams that have d-coordinators that like to run a lot of stunts and such might get trapped a lot, while teams that are more conservative and really honor their gap responsibility would have more success. I am not positive on that one, but it makes sense from a schematic lens.
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 Likes: 136 |
thanks for coming back w/football. I hate when we argue! we can disagree just not take it to the throw things at each other stuff.  I'll come back with football later. Got to go for a while.
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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