Cleveland Browns get 'D' free agency grade from ESPN insiders
http://espn.go.com/blog/cleveland-browns...m-espn-insiders


ESPN Insider's free agency grades came in today,Insider and the Cleveland Browns did not meet the minimum requirements to stay eligible.

Written by Mike Sando and with analytical help from Bill Polian, Field Yates, Matt Williamson and Louis Riddick, the Insider piece graded all 32 teams on their free agency performance since the new league year opened March 10.

While Polian gave the Browns an incomplete grade, Williamson gives the Browns the "worst grade you possibly can give."

COMINGS AND GOINGS

ESPN.com is your headquarters for NFL trades and free-agency moves this offseason.


Free-Agent Tracker »
Free-Agency Wire »
Team-by-team transaction list »

The Browns have signed five potential starters -- cornerback Tramon Williams, wide receivers Dwayne Bowe and Brian Hartline, defensive tackle Randy Starks, quarterback Josh McCown -- but didn't corner the market on true game-breakers. The Browns let several key free agents walk, including corner Buster Skrine and tight end Jordan Cameron.

While Yates considers the Williams and Starks pickups as "smart signings," Riddick said the Browns made moves without a clear-cut purpose, and Williamson was even harsher: "I just do not think anyone wants to play for the Browns. They are the new Raiders."

That's cold -- and might be slightly true. To be sure, money talks in most cases, and the Browns were decidedly frugal this time around, despite entering free agency with $40-plus-million in cap space. But it's fair to wonder whether the Browns' perceived dysfunction this offseason and turnstile of starting quarterbacks makes free agents think twice about Cleveland. Want me to sign? That will cost you double. The text investigation doesn't help. Which free agent would want their name in Ray Farmer's inbox?

Cleveland's message seemed clear: We like our roster and want to build through the draft, using free agency as supplemental income. That's fine. That plan can work. But the Browns also don't have the cachet of inactive free agency teams such as the Packers, Patriots and Ravens, who all have an established quarterback. The Browns entered free agency with a few needs and did not address all of them. With all respect to Jim Dray or Gary Barnidge, there's not a starting tight end on the roster.

That said, some of these signings are solid, particularly Williams, Starks and Bowe, who isn't an elite No. 1 but is an upgrade for this team. McCown is the classic bridge guy. He's done well in the past. Can't fault the team for signing him.

I've been told the Browns had set their sights on collecting several compensatory picks in 2016 in exchange for the in-house free agents lost. That played a role in the Browns' player evaluation. Four of the Browns' five biggest signings were recently released players, meaning they don't count against the team's compensatory formula.

As for receiver, Jeremy Maclin was the only top-shelf wideout available on the open market. The rest were locked up by their respective teams. Their genuine options at receiver were limited at best.

Now, pass-rusher? They could have helped their cause with more aggressive plays.

Giving the Browns a D is particularly harsh, but it's hard to give them an A or B based on the moves made, and the cap space available.

I've been saying that getting FAs to want to come to Cleveland is a tough sell. We are a punch line in the eyes of many in the league and media. To change that, they are taking an approach that runs counter to what the talking heads think they should do, hence the unfavorable review. But I think they are doing fine. Sign solid players that answer immediate needs, then build the team through the draft. Learn from mistakes and move on. It's not flashy, and it's not a quick fix, but in the end (if it's a good plan) the team will start to win more games, which will attract better FA. Stick to the plan.

I don't necessarily think that this is a matter of getting free agents to come here. Many guys came here for visits. How many received offers? We don't know, but it seems like the front office is being very careful with their cap room, and want to fill holes with players who are not going to cost them when it comes to compensatory picks.

There is nothing wrong with that approach. Why overpay for players when you can fill holes with players that don't cost as much, in money, and in future draft picks?

I always remember the 2001 Patriots. They were ridiculed for their approach to free agency. They passed on most of the expensive players, and instead brought in a bunch of "bums", but they were bums who fit their team.

They did OK that year, and even though they had Tom Brady, he wasn't "Tom Brady" yet. He threw for 2800 yards with 18 TD and 12 INT that season. Their defense and run game made that team go.

They went 11-5 in the regular season, with their (at the time) backup QB leading the way. They wound up 6th in scoring, and 6th in scoring defense.

How?

They for 1157 yards and 12 TD out of Antowain Smith, a guy who looked like a backup at best when signed. He had a good year a couple of years earlier, but had fallen off. He wasn't exactly highly sought after.

They signed David Patten from ... well .... us. He proved to be a low priced, valuable piece for them.

They also raided the mighty 2000 Cleveland Browns for Marc Edwards.

On defense they brought in Roman Phifer, who had his best season 5 years earlier. They added Mike Vrabel, who looked like a bust in Pittsburgh. They added Anthony Pleasant (another former Brown, but one who had played under Belichick in Cleveland) as a free agent. Brian Cox came from the Jets. Terrell Buckley came to them from the Broncos as a bigger free agent deal. They also added Terrance Shaw. Je'Rod Cherry signed with them. Matt Compton was added from Detroit.

They did not go after the big names. The biggest name was probably Buckley, but IIRC, there was something that knocked his price down. Many of the players they signed were guys who looked like "depth", and nothing more. Nonetheless, many of them contributed to their Super Bowl season anyway.

How many times have we seen a free agent get a huge deal, only to bomb? We signed 2 big names in recent years, who wound up unable to help us because of injuries. Both Gary Baxter and LeCharles Bentley were cornerstones, big dollar free agent deals.

It is so hard to judge free agency at this point. Maybe we signed a guy who did not, or no longer fit a scheme elsewhere, but who fits our scheme? Maybe we signed a guy like Miles Austin, who comes in and plays well, after a down season or 2. Who knows at this point? Maybe everyone we signed absolutely bombs. Maybe 1 or 2 have Pro Bowl years. Maybe we have a draft where we add 2 or 3 starter quality players. Who knows at this point.Anyone who says they know for sure is lying. None of us know for sure.

We started this off-season needing some positions filled.

WR: We added Hartline and Bowe. Both are serviceable players, who can help this team. Decent group who we will probably add to in the draft.

QB: We added McCown and Lewis. Not an ideal situation, but there is really no ideal QB available in free agency, unless you get really, really lucky. We need help here, but is there help available?

TE: We lost Cameron, but we have yet to draft. We also have, reportedly, an interest in Rob Housler, and had an interest in Jermaine Gresham before he needed surgery. Maybe we add a player here before the draft. It is possible. We do have a pair of backup type TE who form a decent, though not overwhelming, situational pair.

OL: No adds or losses. (excellent starting 5)I would suspect that we add a player int he middle of the draft who can be a solid backup/future starter.

RB: No adds or losses. (good group)

FB: The sky is falling.

DL: We lost Rubin and added Starks. I think that Starks may be a better scheme fit. We still need help here.

LB: I like much of this group. It's funny .... last year I liked our OLB group, and was scared to death about our ILB group. We added Dansby, and drafted Kirksey, and saw huge improvement from Robertson. I like our ILB group, a lot. We will, almost certainly, add a pass rusher on the outside here. Plus, let's nit forget that Kruger will be 30 ...... after the next Super Bowl.

DB: I like our starters, and let's be honest, a lot depends on how Gilbert responds to a disappointing rookie year. We have a nice top 3 in Haden, Williams, and Williams ..... and potential in DeSir. I like our Safety positional depth as well, with Gipson, Whitner, and Bademosi. (and Poyer showed some ability)

So, I like a lot of the units on our team, and see a lot of promise in others. I think that some need addressed, and one we really need to get lucky with. (QB)

This team needs to somehow manage to get the QB position settled. I don't know how that will happen. Maybe we get lucky and McCown or Lewis really shows something. Maybe Manziel recovers completely and applies himself and becomes what we hoped he would become. Maybe we draft a guy in the middle rounds and he becomes the guy. Maybe Shaw develops and arm that can make NFL throws, to go along with what seems like an NFL brain. Who knows? Way too many questions for anyone to be comfortable here. However, maybe we can get a "2001 Tom Brady" performance out of one of these guys, and with a strong run game and a strong defense, that can get us to the playoffs. Actually, I expect us to make the playoffs in 2015. Am I crazy? Who knows?

Ouch! The truth hurts.

i think its time fans stop trying to compare us to the patriots or seahawks.

we aren't them.

No we aren't.

My point is that sometimes moves that look like questionable moves, at best, sometimes work out quite well.

We aren't the Patriots, or the Seahawks. Not yet, anyway. Why can't we be them in the future, though?

We can, but first it takes being respected and actually winning something for that to happen. When we went 10-6 that year in 2007, yea, every FA wanted to come here because we was up and coming, well supposedly anyway. same thing when we went to the playoffs in 2002-03?

THAT would've been the perfect time to build through the draft and act like a winning organization.

for instance, we seriously was a QB away from getting into the playoffs this/eh...last season. but we still didn't get there. We also fired a HC after one year. we've been turning over our roster it seems like every single year. yes, the majority of FA's want cash, but they also want that shot at a SB ring too. because thats even MORE cash and prestige that comes with it.

right now we have a nasty history since 99. it's going to take a couple years before we can "build through the draft".

we need that FA push just to get into the playoffs, IMO. Because we AREN'T a winning organization, and we need to overpay to get some respect in this league during the regular season.

Our core players (Haden, Thomas, Mack,) aren't getting any younger. Our FA's(Whitner, Dansdy, Kruger) are getting up there in age.

and we've been screwing the pooch at an epic meltdown level on 1st round picks. our team NEEDS FA to even be remotely relevant in the AFC north.

We don't necessarily need a big free agent push. Maybe we need pieces that fit. That doesn't always mean big dollar guys. That was my point with the Pats.

They signed a bunch of C-D free agents. They "lost" free agency that year. Their "backup" QB, (Brady) forced into action because of the injury to their franchise guy, (Bledsoe) threw 18 TD and 12 INT.

What did they "do" that off-season to win the Super Bowl? They found players who fit their schemes, and they drafted well. That's it. They found their QB from a little regarded backup, and their offense and defense was built up with a bunch of so-so players, players past their primes, and those who had never had a prime.

Sometimes it all just comes together for a team. It doesn't always make sense, but it happens somehow.

Maybe we get a year out of McCown like he had in Chicago. Who knows? Stranger things have happened. They just usually don't happen for us, but rather to us. I think that things are turning around for us, and that we will make the playoffs in 2015.

Bro if McCown has a year like Hoyer, without the epic metldown of the last what? 5 games? I would be happy, because that means we would be no less than a wild card team.

What a bunch of Bozos.
As for wanting to come here. That is what the Bozo said and in the same sentence stated we had decided to be Frugal.

No way I wanted an A grade from these Bozo's that would have meant we spent too much. There was some very high contracts thrown around.

Not coming here. I can see the few elite players. But for instance - Revis if we out bid the Jets he would have came. WRs I can see some not wanting as we don't have the QB thing established.

Continuity and some wins under our belt - there will be no reason for the Bozo's to print this crap about us.
jmho - We probably did more than any other in our Division.

To be clear about my earlier comment, I don't think the point is to be able to attract top FA. The point is to build a team through the draft and be able round it out with FA when needed. This is the best approach, but it takes time and patience. We just live in an instant gratification world where those who don't (or don't want) to get the plan will be critical. Screw them, stick to the plan.

I can't say I blame ESPN for giving the Browns a D in free agency, but I am glad that Ray Farmer didn't throw the kitchen sink at a bunch of big name free agents such as Jeremy Maclin or Ndomakong Suh. In my opinion, it wouldn't make any sense in bringing guys like that to Cleveland and have to pay them $11 or $12 million a year (the figure it would have taken to get big names here) when we don't even pay Joe Thomas, Alex Mack or Joe Haden that kind of yearly salary.

I liked how Farmer handled our free agents, now we're set to get up to four compensatory draft picks next season. 10 draft picks this year, 11 draft picks next year, this is a team that has to build through the draft. Getting good free agents in the door at a reasonable price just isn't something Cleveland can do right now.

I'm happy with Hartline, Bowe, Williams and Starks.

Still dislike the McCown signing, and until I see him play well consistently I won't be happy with us having him.

I'm still hoping we could maybe bring in a TE like Rob Housler (last week it was reported we talked to him) as that will free up another early draft pick to go BPA. I also wouldn't even mind adding someone such as B.J. Raji for more depth at NT. Adding him would allow us to target a RT, WR, QB and Edge Rusher with our first four picks (just my own opinion).

But yeah I certainly understand and agree with the "D" grade.

But...but... that would have gotten us an A or B grade.

I'd rather use our big money on guys that are currently on our team and need to be re-signed eventually, like Bitonio, Taylor, Robertson and Gipson who will all eventually need bigger contracts.

Besides, we did upgrade in spots while not losing much *Cameron, if he was a naturally healthy guy would have gotten a large raise and been a major loss.* For me, personally, the Browns got better in FA, so whatever. If it was just a "marginal" upgrade, so be it. The Browns don't need a total makeover like they did in 2008-2013. Get solid QB play and the Browns are a playoff team.

Based on how they grade FA-- D seems about right...

Lets hope we lose FA but win in the season for a change..

Right or Wrong , the FA is just part ( small part ) of the media story on the Browns .. The storied history since 1999 is a Transylvania Rocky Horror movie .. And our latest Pilot and C0-Pilot have nothing to brag about at this time .. I just don't see how the fan base would expect anything less from the National Media .

I think we got a "D" grade because we had tons of money to spend and didn't spend any. But then these same people would probably say that you shouldn't build a team through free agency.

Lets see we lost Skrine and added Williams, who is a better Corner. +

We lost Hoyer and added McCown, like it or hate it, McCown was a more sought after QB than hoyer due to the fact he is a better QB. +

We added Bowe, a proven vet with great hands and consistency +

We added starks, which will help on our run stuff +

We lost Sheard, who i personally liked, but is surely not a top notch guy and will be replaceable. I liked what I saw from Mingo last year, he showed improvement even with a severely injured arm. So I will give this a - but it very well could even out.

I wouldnt really grade it on a scale from A to F. I would say we improved without spending a ton of money that wasnt needed to waste. I am happy we finally had a regime that laid out a plan, and is sticking to that plan regardless of what the fans are saying.

Lets not forget, this years FA class wasnt exactly a ball of fire either. Next year if I am not mistaken is going to be loaded with talent. So I love the fact they didnt spend this year, because next year I truly believe they are going to look to add the superstars that will take us from a decent squad to playoff bound.

Opinion maybe, but not "fact". McCown's career QB Rate is 76.1; Hoyer's is 76.8, per NFL.com. I suppose you could argue that they're the same guy, but Hoyer still has some upside, IMO. I still think the only reason McCown is here is because the Browns didn't want a QB competition that JM probably couldn't win. With McCown, there will be no division in the locker room or the fan base. If Manziel can't seize the job this TC, he has no future here. All JMO, of course.

j/c

YES!!! Browns finish last in March!

Hope this is a trend we start seeing the Browns getting a "A" in December.

You cant compare numbers, especially when McCown has played on different teams with different offenses. Its not fair to either of them to compare eachother based on that fact. I am going by the fact that MULTIPOLE GMS and coaches wanted Josh and courted him very strongly. The same cannot be said about Hoyer. McCown was the consensus #1 QB in Free Agency based on every EXPERT that gets PAID to do this for a living. So I will use that as FACT.

I think McCown is a better qb than BH, not by much but better.

Only because it was well know that Hoyer was looking to compete as a starter, while McCown was more than happy to be a backup at this point in his career. Of course his options were more numerous.

The Browns have 2 1st RD draft picks and had the most cap room in the NFL outside of the Jags to spend money and to this day,have not closed the gap on the rest of the AFC North.
for the Browns its always been "wait for the plan to take course"
Judging by Ray Farmers failures from the 2014 Draft and his text gate issues
he's a short string.
He addressed free agency like he's gonna be around for years.

I like the Williams signing.He's gonna be a great mentor for the young kids. great technician.
Starks is way past his years and will give you a handful of snaps a game.
I don't expect much from him. He got a nice payday.
Hartline is a solid WR. A coaches dream. I think he peaked already. But he will catch everything thrown much like Austin did.
Bowe is really average now. He's not the same WR from 2007 and his numbers prove that.
McCown is the one who brings the grade down.
He's a journeyman but yet all these Browns GMs no matter who they were think can catch lightning in a bottle with these aging vet QBs at the end of their career.
the Browns had a ton of cap space but went bargain shopping.
They brought bodies in..but how many are difference makers?

These other teams all needed a starter, and they went a different direction, with Hoyer still available.

Do you really think that the Jets cared that Hoyer wanted to start when they have Geno Smith atop their depth chart? How about the Bills, who had the illustriously productive EJ Manuel in place at the top of their depth chart coming into free agency.

They replaced these guys with other, veteran QBs. They chose other veterans to come in, rather than choosing Hoyer. The Bills actually traded for their veteran QB, as opposed to signing Hoyer. They opted for a guy who threw for 425 in 3 games last year, with 3 TD and 4 INT.

The Jets were content to wait for Ryan Fitzpatrick. He is probably the best of all of the QB who hit the market in any manner this year. Think about that for a minute, and that should tell everyone the state of QB free agency in the NFL. They traded for him as well. In other words, they chose to give up a draft pick for Fitzpatrick, as opposed to just signing Hoyer and giving up nothing.

It is obvious what the NFL thought of Hoyer. For whatever reason, this staff did not want him back. Teams with dire need at the position met with him, and passed on making him an offer. He signed for a relatively minor free agent contract in Houston. The NFL showed what they thought of his potential as a QB, and as a veteran in their QB room. For whatever reason, teams with dire need at the position decided to go elsewhere. We'll just have to see what happens with him.

You are spot on with this analysis. I couldnt have explained it better myself.

I keep reading this on here and I can't believe they would do that. Come on.. Personally, I think that's pure nonsense.

Unless I missed something, Football is a competitive sport. Teams want the best guys to play. To stack the deck so one guy wins over another guy doesn't do the team any good at all..

nope, I ain't buying into that thinking at all.

Just my opinion

You can convince me that Fitzpatrick is a better QB than Hoyer - I think I stated as much somewhere on these boards. I wouldn't argue if it was claimed that Cassel - Hoyer - McCown are pretty much the same guy. But my original point was to take exception to the presentation of McCown being better than Hoyer as "fact". He simply is not. Hoyer was always going to end up either here or Houston, anyway.

j/c

I've said it many times, but I think FA signings are pretty much moot until you find a QB. Having an upgrade at OG, CB, ILB, WR, etc would be nice, but won't make much difference in the win/loss column.

Plus, you overpay for guys that are old.

Best way to turn it around quickly? Draft a franchise QB and draft cheap/good/young players to surround him with.

Unfortunately, we all know we've failed to do that

Yet more teams were actively after McCown than we after Hoyer.

Hoyer had one good year. McCown had one very good year. The system that McCown excelled in is the same style of offense we want to run here. We'll see what happens.

Actually YTown, he had a half of a good year.

1day...actually, your claim about McCown being more sought after than Hoyer, is not true based on the information I have found.

The Bills and Browns were interested in McCown.

Hoyer had the following interest...

Texans/Titans

Vikings/49ers

Jets

Arguably, so did Hoyer.

Fitzpatrick started 12 games last season for the Texans, throwing for 2,483 yards and 17 touchdowns along with eight interceptions. He became expendable when the Texans signed free agent Brian Hoyer and re-signed Ryan Mallett.

they traded for him because they couldnt sign hoyer. not that they did not want to. just that hoyer chose the texans. buffolo? they chose to trade for a QB BEFORE hoyer was available so they wouldnt have to take a chance of waiting.

admittedly, i dont know exactly how compensatory picks work, but perhaps that played a role in it as well?

mccown was cut, and we signed him. hoyer wasnt cut by us, but picked up by another team.


if we felt they were about equal in terms of production (as well as considering mccown more accepting of a mentor role), maybe this factored in to why they chose mccown?

or does losing a FA only matter if you were the one who drafted him?

just brainstorming here.

Yes b/c we have a new FO and staff almost every other year. If they don't give the FO time to build a franchise this will continue to happen.



Nothing to say about the text thing, it was dumb. I don't understand this reasoning.... So you are complaining about "wait for the plan to take course" then state Farmer is on a short string. Do you realize this is WHY our team has been terrible for so long? So he will be fired, and our next GM will go through the same process and we will be back to square one and waiting for a ANOTHER plan to take course.

farmer is not on a short string. when the owner thinks farmer knows more about running plays and how games should be run on the field than his head coach i would think pettine is the one on a short string.

I think it's crazy if either are on a short string at this point in time. IMO

when the owner thinks farmer knows more about running plays and how games should be run on the field than his head coach i would think pettine is the one on a short string.

I love how you post this as if it is fact..speculative BS at best.

And hopefully, not have to allocate so much money in the early part of the first round Although we moved outside the top 10 this year!

That's progress for Cleveland.

Browns owner Jimmy Haslam confirms Ray Farmer sent texts, but says he fully supports embattled GM

"Ray's smart. He works hard. I think he understands football. He's been in football all his life. He relates extremely well to players. He knows it not only from a personnel standpoint, but from the way a game should be run and managed standpoint


http://www.ohio.com/blogs/cleveland-browns/cleveland-browns-1.270107/browns-owner-jimmy-haslam-confirms-ray-farmer-sent-texts-but-says-he-fully-supports-embattled-gm-1.566114?%3F%3F=

Not trying to nitpick, but the team as a whole had only a half a good year. I can't blame everything on Hoyer.

I could list all the things I think may have contributed but that would bore ya..

you would be a hoyer apologists if you tried.

I'm okay with our free agency so far.

I like Bowe/Hartline. Wish there were better options, this is a rare FA with little options at WR. I'm fine with Starks and Williams, don't care about age or $$$ on those deals. Not going to hurt us long-term in any way. McCown, I don't really understand that type of $$$, we'll see. But I kind of see him as Hoyer without the drama.

No problems with any of the departures. Skrine, take the yellow flag with you.

j/c...sort of sad a discussion on which retread back up maybe can start QB is better - better for the Browns.

There is a reason they are Vets and basic retreads. Probably the most success is Fitz...but not one of these QBs would be good enough to get the Lombardi and I'm talking with the RAVENS 2000 D and Bucs D with Johnson.

Mac...Hoyer was in FA land for 3-4 closer to 10 times the length of McCown...heck he didn't even reach FA opening. Of course there was more teams looking at Hoyer.

We know we won't win anything with Hoyer he had his shot and proved when crunch time comes the good - great ones get better...he got worse. Not a virtue you wish to have. And yet we offered him a contract that he said he'd like to stay with Cleveland if they assured he would have a shot as the starter. I don't know how we answered to him all I know is he said he wanted to test his worth in the FA market. In the NFL you snooze you lose. You own a business and your GM says hey thanks for this raise but you know what...I'm going to test the waters out there...I might get more. You get your ASS fired and they hire a new GM. Pure and simple...once he opted to test the waters...with no tag situation...if we are smart he is dead to us.

jmho McCown is not bad - he just isn't great. Him coming in to start is not a Pederson situation...or a Detmer or a Miami U QB who was great but not in the PROS??? Dorsey...thats him

Hoyer I loved him...but I hated him for choking when we had a shot to win our division and get in the playoffs. That was the worst, don't understand anyone really pining for him. Discussion on which is better as a fact...If any of them is our STARTING QB...we aren't going anywhere with them. That is the only fact I know.

jmho oh n Pblack that just told me that Haslam respects Farmers over all knowledge of the game. Doesn't support any claim that he thinks Farmer knows more than Pettine. But that smelled like Haslam was really the one who complained...lol

I certainly won't say there weren't other contributing factors. I'm neither anti-Hoyer nor a huge Hoyer supporter. The run game went south after Mack's injury. When Gordon came back he was more of a handicap than a help. I'm certainly one who understands there were other factors.

However, I will also say there were things that solely rested on Hoyer's shoulders that also went south. Hoyer's deep balls were never usually good. He simply didn't have the arm strength needed. Some looked more like WR's waiting for punts rather than a WR making a catch. This was something that was noticeable early on though.

What I saw that noticeably stood out to me was that Hoyer's footwork got progressively worse. Something that over time you would expect to do just the opposite. You expect progression in this regard, not regression. His overall mechanics just seemed to go downhill.

Now I do understand that with a diminishing run game it put more weight on his shoulders. But I also understand this FO not wanting to make a big commitment to someone who from appearances, seems to be going backwards.

+ 1. I think Skrine got paid a lot so that's why I'm okay seeing him go. He's the highest paid nickel corner in the NFL lol, unless maybe the Jets planning to trade him for a pick or in a deal for a pick(s)? Who knows, but Jets as of now have the best trio of corners and maybe they fully intend going into regular season with that. I also don't fully get the McCown money but if the offense is going to be back to running hte ball at-will, heck maybe even JF can play starter and do decent.

...

"D" is reasonable grade, we didn't make any splash signings or spend a ton of money - but the front office made it clear that would be the case. I too am okay with FA, it provides some stop gaps at some positions.

His statements to me suggests that he knows Farmer was a former player and understands how things are run, not the way you state it as if he was telling Farmer to override Pettine.

I "THINK" he understands football??????
Hilarious.

j/c every time we get a good grade... we stink it up. every time we get made fun of... we do well. I'll take the grade.

A "D"... That's an improvement, so I"m not complaining.

All the other free agency threads are locked, so I thought I'd put this here:

Eagles sign Miles Austin

Saw that earlier today. Did we still have him signed? Will we get a compensatory pick for him? Sad to see him go. He could at least push the young guys in camp....

His contract is pretty low, so if we got any picks for him they'd be very late. Austin was gone the minute we signed Bowe.

I wish Austin the best. He was a very key piece to what offense we had last year until he thought it'd be a wise choice to try to hurdle someone. The fact that he stuck around with the team, attended meetings and traveled with the team even after being sidelined with the injury is a testament to the man's character.

Again, I wish him NOTHING but the best!

+1

If we still had him signed then the Eagles would not have been able to sign him.

Obviously there were more teams interested in Josh, just may have not been reported. However he was the consensus top free agent QB.

He was? That's news to me.

Yep, its called google. amazing thing

Free Agency thread locked so, for your viewing pleasure:

Ravens sign Matt Schaub lol!

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/03/31/ravens-sign-matt-schaub/

This would make a lot more sense if Kubiak was still around.

Just basic interview on the site, thought I'd post it.

Joe Thomas interview

Outside of an occasional University of Wisconsin basketball highlight, Joe Thomas hasn’t watched sports since the NFL playoffs concluded. He’s completely unplugged himself on his property in Wisconsin. Besides checking in briefly with new offensive coordinator John DeFilippo, Thomas has even kept his cell phone away from sight.

Thomas stopped by the Browns’ facility last week for a Play 60 event and sat down with ClevelandBrowns.com

Q: How important will Alex Mack’s return to the offensive line be?

Joe Thomas: Well he’s obviously a huge part of our offense. Being the center, right in the middle of the offensive line, he’s the one that makes all the calls on the line. He gets everybody lined up in protections and in the run game. He’s a huge part and obviously he’s the best center in the NFL. His loss (to an injury) last year really hurt us. Having him back will be a huge boost for the entire offense.

Q: There has been a lot of turnover on the Browns’ offensive coaching staff this year, but not on the offensive line. Coaches Andy Moeller and George DeLeone are both back. How important is that continuity with your position coaches returning?

Joe Thomas: I think it’s really important. The offensive line is all about cohesion and communication. That starts with the offensive line coaches and it trickles down to the players. Having the same guys teaching the same coaching methods is going to be a huge thing for us. For a guy like Joel Bitonio, I think that’s really important. As a young player it’s important to get your feet under yourself and have some consistency early in your career.

Q: What are your expectations of Mike Pettine in year two?

Joe Thomas: I’m really excited coach Pettine is back for his second season. I think he kind of surprised everybody in the NFL with the job he did in his first season. He proved that the job is not too big for him. He proved that he was definitely ready to be an NFL coach. I think he’s going to make big strides in his second season. And I think you are going to see that in our win/loss record. He does a great job with his steady approach. He’s not a roller coaster guy. He’s very blunt. He tells you how it is. I think those are great attributes to have as an NFL coach.

Q: What are your initial thoughts on what wide receivers Dwayne Bowe and Brian Hartline will bring to the Browns?

Joe Thomas: You look at those two guys and they are two different receivers. They both are really going to help us and fill a void and a need. Dwayne is a big, fast, physical receiver and he’ll be a guy that can take a top off a defense. I think Brian is going to do a great job with a lot of the underneath stuff. He’s going to be a great compliment in the slot to Andrew Hawkins.

Q: How else are you spending your off-time?

Joe Thomas: Well from February to April the most important thing, no matter what the pundits on ESPN tell you, is to get away from the game, mentally refocus and to spend time with your family. Because once April starts, it’s pretty much a grind all the way until the end of the season in January. It’s important to be refreshed and recharged.

Nice that they didn't ask him about the QB position. Don't need to put him on the spot like that. I mean really, what's he going to say... "We need one." done.

I'd rather have Schaub than McCown.

That's an...interesting opinion.

Interesting? How so?

Show me career numbers that make it so "interesting?" Thanks in advance.

Schaub has been in a heavy downward slope the last few years. Last year he threw 10 passes, and 2 of them were intercepted. It's unfair to totally judge McCown just on last year because he was doomed without an OC.

McCown is still an acceptable backup. Schaub has a dead arm.

Biased and inaccurate, but at least it was "interesting" to see how well you falsified the truth.

What did I falsify?

I asked you to provide career numbers. You completely ignored that and posted some crap about Schaub only throwing 10 passes this past year and that he has a dead arm. You then blamed McCown's poor showing on the team he played for. That is the same team that cut his ass after just one year.

You wanna keep going w/this?

You seem like an angry person. In most of your posts. Relax.

Yes I do, because I fail to see how Career numbers are indicative of anything other than Schaub USED to be a good QB. So fair enough, I ignored posting the career numbers because they don't prove anything worthwhile.

But if you wish, Schaub has been a much better career QB. His career numbers are very good. McCown's aren't.

Angry person? That is an insult.

I was suspended for calling Memphis a liar after he said I was a liar when I clearly was NOT lying.

Wonder if you will be suspended for calling me a name?

Btw-----why do you stalk me? Inferiority complex? Control issues? Lack of self esteem? Whatever it is..........it's creepy.

Okay.......at least you are honest, unlike most around here.

Let me ask you this..........what makes you think McCown is better based on his career numbers and most importantly [according to your most recent logic] on what he did last year?

I didn't call you a name. I said you seem like an angry person. Post after post, you prove it.

What is creepy is your seeming anger.

I am not angry at all, but thanks for your concern.

Weird.

Statistically, he put up numbers similar to the last year Schaub started, so statistically, I have little hope.

However, I've watched a few games he played. His arm still looks strong and the offense just looked really poorly designed. It seems like it's unfair to say that, making it a cop out, but really McCown got a raw deal in Tampa. It was a poorly designed fit from the start.

I'm mildly optimistic that with the line that he'll have in front of him, McCown will look competent.

I like that you took the time to present a logical argument. I did not like the sarcasm of you saying me preferring Schaub over McCown as "interesting," as if it was ludicrous.

I will let it go. Let's hope you are right and McCown plays well.

I hate the McCown signing more than just about anyone. He was among the last QBs I wanted. Schaub, while having a better overall career than McCown, is worse at this point in his career. Injuries have taken his physical talents away. He also seems like he has lost the mental aspect as well. The TAINT streak killed him.

"The TAINT streak killed him. "

I don't know what that means,but I hope I never get it.

Agree on all accounts. At this point Schaub is just a body. Would have been an awful signing.

I agree. Cheap shot did him in. Played hard. Best to him.

j/c...I don't look at stats of course at the end all unless it overwhelmingly goes into my opinions favor...lol hey I'm human.

But just from watching games.
Its seems McCown has had the light come on the last two years and seems to be able to get in the comfort zone and flow. A lot more than Schaub who does not look confident at all and struggles a lot. I prefer McCown this place and time than Schaub for sure. I also prefer that McCown is not our starting QB...I'd rather have it that our Manziel progressed enough to be our starting QB. We could get to 8-8 football with McCown at our helm. I just would prefer seeing a Franchise QB in the making.

jmho

Touchdown
After
I
N
T

Is there another definition for TAINT that I don't know about?

I gotta be honest, that's not what I thought it meant!!

From deep in Appalachia

Taint that uncle Ezra's moonshine?

I looked at the title of this thread and it made me wonder, so I looked up what grade ESPN gave us for the 2014 draft. It was a B- only because we failed to pick up a WR for "Johnny Manziel" to throw to. Interesting quote (not from Kiper) read "Gilbert, Manziel and 2015 first- and fourth-round picks is impossible to criticize".

I only point this out because the Browns are being made to look a fool because Gilbert & Manziel flopped their first year. It appears they have plenty of company. So take ESPN's FA opinion with a grain of salt considering their accuracy last year at draft time.

ESPN has to have a reaction to everything. It's their business model.

Are you saying that because you believe drafting Gilbert and Manziel in the first round was smart?

Or are you saying that to deflect blame away from Farmer for making two horrendous picks in the first round?

I think he's saying they were wrong then, they're wrong now and they'll be wrong tomorrow.

Talking heads.

May I ask why the national media is only wrong when they say something negative about the Browns, but why are they right when they say something that agrees w/the homers around here?

I'm saying that giving grades on both last year's draft and this year's free agency immediately after they happened is dumb. It is also what ESPN has to do. They are literally giving a letter grade to something that hasn't played out.

You are entitled to your opinion, but what about this year's FA period excites you? How are we a better team? How can you truthfully defend the drafting of Gilbert and Maziel last year?

Make fun of ESPN all you want, but man, what have the Browns done that makes you happy?

Don't put words in my mouth please. My only point was that since ESPN thought our FA period was poor, I was curious what they thought of our draft last year and posted the comparison. No, I do not think last year's first round was good by any stretch, especially after the first year which is all we have to judge it by.

I also am not expounding on an agenda in favor of current front office. Man is everything an agenda with you??

I have been a Browns fan since 1969 and all I care about is seeing a Browns super bowl before I die and some quick success so my new Grandson who lives in Dayton does not end up a Bengals or STeelers fan.

Don't put words in my mouth please. My only point was that since ESPN thought our FA period was poor, I was curious what they thought of our draft last year and posted the comparison. No, I do not think last year's first round was good by any stretch, especially after the first year which is all we have to judge it by.

I also am not expounding on an agenda in favor of current front office. Man is everything an agenda with you??

I have been a Browns fan since 1969 and all I care about is seeing a Browns super bowl before I die and some quick success so my new Grandson who lives in Dayton does not end up a Bengals or STeelers fan.

I'll respond to this portion of your post first:

I love ESPN. I am not making fun of them. I am saying what they do. Their entire business model is react immediately to things that happen in the sports world.



I don't know if I need to be excited by free agency (or the draft). What will excite me is winning games. With that said, what the team does in free agency (and the draft) directly affects whether or not the team will win games, which, in turn, determines my excitement level.

I don't know if we are a better team. I haven't seen the team play. I will address each "news story" that I can remember off the top of my head (and a quick Google search) and react to how I like it at this point (I will not use letter grades). I will not comment on things that none of us have anyway of knowing the outcome (i.e. Roper as our offensive quality control person). I will also not comment on inconsequential signings or happenings (i.e. Thad Lewis). Furthermore, I will also not comment on the Josh Gordon saga as it is a dead horse that no longer needs to be beaten. I will extend your question from not only the free agent period, but to the entire off-season.

1. DeFilippo in, Shanahan out. First off I don't like the move because I can never remember if DeFilippo has one or two "Ls" in it, so I have to Google his name each time I type it. That makes me not excited. All kidding aside, I don't know if DeFilippo is an upgrade over Shanahan. I have never seen him coordinate an NFL offense. I will say that if the situation with Shanahan became untenable (for whatever reason), it is probably for the best that he is no longer around.

My best guess is that in the very short term (first half of the season-ish) DeFilippo will be a sizable downgrade, as he will be doing something he has never done before (coordinate an NFL offense). I think we can all say that we have experience in getting better at doing things the more that we do them. In the long term I think that the positive relationship that DeFilippo has with the head coach will be a good thing. My guess is that in the long run, we will be a better team with DeFilippo instead of Shanahan. Not because DeFilippo is surely better than Shanahan, but because we will have everyone rowing in the same direction. I can only muster a guess because we have played zero games with DeFilippo as our offensive coordinator. As a human being who can see things unfolding before my eyes, I reserve the right to change my opinion once games are played.

2. O'Connell in, Loggains out. This one is easy. Loggains probably could have been fired after his ill-advised radio interview that came after the draft. He definitely should have been fired because of Hoyer's regression and Manziel's lack of everything. O'Connell has a prior relationship with both our head coach, offensive coordinator, and one of our QBs. I don't think that can be taken as a bad thing (and it is probably a good thing). He was also highly regarded around the league as a private QB coach. I think that O'Connell will do better at this job than Loggains. I have no reason for this, other than I get the impression that O'Connell is highly competent. As a human being who can see things unfolding before my eyes, I reserve the right to change my opinion once games are played.

3. Manziel, rehab. We picked Manziel. He is on our team. He was terrible in the very small amount of snaps he took in 2014. With all that said, if he was having real problems with some sort of substance, then the best thing he could have done for himself (and the team) was get help for those problems. If Manziel is going to be on our team (let alone be the QB), he needed to get things straightened out. This can only be seen as a positive.

4. McCown in, Hoyer out. Both are bad. Both have had very short stretchers where they were very good. Neither is/was going to be the future QB of this team. I hate the McCown signing. I think he was among the worst options for any team that needed a QB. I don't know if he is better than Hoyer, my guess is that their performance will be similar. I do think that McCown is a more willing "mentor" to other QBs. I don't think that actually matters in the long run. I don't know if we got better, I think we are about the same at this position.

5. Hartline, Bowe signed. I don't think there is one person who dislikes the Hartline signing. I think it is very obvious that his presence has improved the team. While I am not a huge fan of Dwayne Bowe, I don't see how having him on the team is a bad thing. I would say the at overall the wide receiver position has been solidified this off-season to the point where we don't have to force anything in the draft.

6. Williams in, Skrine out. I see this as a bet on K'Waun Williams more than a reliance on Justin Gilbert. Skrine, as many have pointed out, is best as a slot corner. K'Waun Williams does the same thing. Williams was signed as a safety net for Justin Gilbert. If doesn't get his poo together we are not left in a bind, we have a short term solution to our cornerbacking problems. I don't think we have improved, I don't think we are worse. We are about the same. (I would like to say that I like Skrine as a player and as a prospect. He was still young and had improved every year of his career. I wish there were circumstances that allowed for us to keep him. For the 2015 season I do not think he will be missed.)

7. Starks in, Rubin out. Rubin was a very bad player last year. I don't know if that was because of injury or because he regressed as a player or both. I just know he was bad. Starks was a cheap defensive linemen who also had a down year. We needed more depth on the defensive line and Starks will provide that. I think we are about the same as last year.

8. Attempt to trade for Sam Bradford. I see this as both a positive and a negative. A positive because it shows that our team is not willing to wait and see if Manziel will be good. A negative because they were willing to throw assets at a player that I don't think would be a great help to the team. In the end it doesn't really matter as he didn't end up on our team.

9. Compensatory pick strategy. I think it is obvious that we are trying to gain draft picks by signing players who were cut and letting players who are easily replaced go. What we do with the picks is a whole different discussion entirely. My opinion is that drafting players to play in the NFL is a very hard thing to do. The more shots you have at drafting players the better.

10. Textgate. Obviously our GM made a very stupid mistake. He and the team will pay (literally) for that mistake. While I think it reveals something about Ray Farmer, I don't see it as a huge detriment to our future prospects. I hope Farmer learned from his mistake and will make better decisions in the future.

11. Jordan Cameron out. I was just about Cameron's biggest fan on this message board. I am/was sad to see him go. I think he was our most talented pass catcher. We now have a gaping hole where he used to be.

12. Jabaal Sheard. I think that Sheard did many things well that went unnoticed in the traditional stat sheet. We have not replaced him. We are currently worse off without him.

Back to your original question: How are we a better team? Overall, I think we are pretty much the same team as we were last year. And the draft hasn't taken place. I think that with another year under the same head coach the team should improve.

On to your other question. . .



I don't think this is all that hard. Gilbert, by many standards, was the best corner in the draft and one of the top rated players in the draft. We needed a corner and Gilbert was available with one of our first round picks. We picked him. As far as we know there were no red flags about Gilbert's character that led us to believe that he would be a turd.

Manziel is a completely different story. He is athletically very talented. There were stories about him athletically that don't even make sense. His character and ability to play football intelligently were huge red flags. We swung for the fences and, so far, missed. If I'm not mistaken you (Versatile Dog) liked the pick of Manziel at the time, right?

Both of these picks, so far, have been bad picks. But both were justifiable at the time. With hindsight I think everyone would have done things differently.

(Sorry for any things I forgot to include and/or misspellings. I don't usually devote this much time to one post and I don't feel like going back to proofread. I am sure someone will let me know what I did wrong.)

How are we a worse team after the FA? We upgraded at Corner, Tramon is a better CB than Skrine, whos nothing more than a slot corner. We upgraded at WR, we upgraded on the DL, and regardless if you think hoyer is better than mccown or vise versa, it really doesnt matter as neither were here to be our starter this year. So actually yes, we have improved from last year. Explain to me how we havent.

Who really cares what the 4 lettered says. They are made up of bandwagon fans, block heads and Trent Dilfer.

I do not. They delight in cheap shots. Seldom right. Just flavor of the day media whoring about controversy. They seem to feel that opinions are an end unto themselves, that the "panel of experts" is the destination for viewers as opposed to the sporting event, and that ginned up controversy they create is superior to reporting.

How many talking heads and has beens does it take? The answer is apparently way too many in my opinion.

Impressive post. I don't agree w/everything you say, but that is not a big deal. I think your post is very logical. I will address your points:

I think your opinion if fair. It sure beats the "Shanny sucks and is a rat" comments that are prevalent on this board. I think the move is a huge downgrade. Shanny is one of the best play designers I have ever seen. I also think his playcalling abilities are above average. He certainly had no trouble finding another job. We lose out on this move.



I don't think it's easy, and if it is, it would be the other way around. Loggains is well respected in NFL circles. O'Connell has zero experience in the NFL. Another negative move.



I am glad he went to rehab, but by the same token......I think the chances of him making a miraculous recovery and being our franchise qb is very, very slim.




I agree that the Browns think McCown will be a better mentor to JM, but I think the reason Hoyer is gone is because the players preferred Hoyer over Manziel and it ain't close. Another bad move.




I like the Hartline signing. I'm 50/50 on Bowe. I always loved the guy's talent, but he has a bad case of alligator arms at times, he has substance abuse issues, and he has underachieved. However, I am okay w/these two moves. I do think we need to draft an impact WR.




I am tired of hearing how Skrine is JUST a slot corner. He played outside and did a very good job and there is nothing wrong w/moving him inside on passing downs, which are more common than ever in the NFL. I see this move as loss.



Rubes was not a very bad player last year. He was certainly more productive than Phil Taylor and Starks is not as good as Reubin. Not a huge loss, though.



I don't think he was worth a first round pick and it is embarrassing that he made it known that he would not sign an extension here because he thought the team was dysfunctional. I do hear you though that it is encouraging that they will make a move for a qb. I just don't trust their judgement on QBs. Thus far, it's been pathetic.




I really don't know much about this and won't comment.




Again, I am not saying the Browns deserved a huge penalty. I am simply saying that it was an ignorant and arrogant move by Farmer and that he lost a lot of credibility w/coaches and players around the league. That is not a good thing.




I would not have paid Cameron big money and I have no problem w/him not being here, but the fact that he took the same amount of money to play in Miami is an indicator of how he viewed the Browns.




He is okay. Not a big loss. However, we need to address that position in the draft.



It seems to me that the Browns should have had more information than guys like you and me in regards to the character of those two players. They actually get paid big money to find out that type of information. You and I are just two schmucks on a message board and we do NOT get paid to do those background checks.

I was okay w/us drafting Manziel........kinda. You obviously KNOW that I wanted Bridgewater in the worst way. I wanted us to trade up for him. No way I wanted JM over TB.

With that said, I did have JM as my number 2 QB. I said all along that he was either going to be boom or bust, but I did think his upside was good enough that we should draft him if Teddy was not on the board.

I have already admitted to being wrong about that. I have done so several times. Perhaps some of you guys should try admitting you were wrong once in awhile. It's actually quite refreshing.

The bottom line on those two first round picks is that at this point in time..........they seem to be very bad mistakes and it makes me wonder about Farmer's talent evaluation going forward. Now, many will say that I am a whiner for saying that, but I really don't see how anyone can have faith in this guy after that draft and some of the shenanigans he pulled thus far.

J/c



During his Thursday appearance on Cleveland Browns Daily, defensive coordinator Jim O’Neil was put on the spot by co-host Matt Wilhelm.

“What two returning players are you most excited to see next season?” Wilhelm asked.

O’Neil’s answers: outside linebacker Barkevious Mingoand cornerback Pierre Desir.

Not many know this, but Mingo’s nagging shoulder injury happened on the second play of the season against the Pittsburgh Steelers. Instead of opting for season-ending surgery, Mingo played through the pain, often times restricting himself to using just one arm on the football field.

“It was so disappointing because I really liked how he was coming on through the preseason and all of training camp,” O’Neil said. “I see him downstairs every day rehabbing his [tail] off.”

Mingo still finished with 39 tackles, two sacks and four passes defended, while playing in a more coverage-suited role where he could contribute with the shoulder.

O’Neil’s second response to the question may have been more intriguing listeners.

Pressed into the lineup last December because of injuries to Joe Haden and K’Waun Williams and Justin Gilbert’s inconsistencies, Desir looked the part of a legitimate No. 2 NFL cornerback.

For a player making his first-ever start against stud Carolina wide receiver Kelvin Benjamin, Desir was impressive, limiting the playmaker to just five catches and 47 yards. The fourth-round pick from Lindenwood University wasn’t expected to see a snap last season, let alone play at a high level.

“I’m really excited about him because he has such a pro mentality,” O’Neil said. “We called on him at the end of the season and he was kind of a guy that we were counting on redshirting the entire year.

“One of the big questions marks about Desir: Was he going to stick his face in the run game? And he showed that he would. And he did a (darn) good job at the line of scrimmage pressing some receivers.”

The Browns are not ruling out Desir challenging veteran Tramon Williams and Gilbert for playing time – and that competition will begin later this month when OTAs begin.

“Having a lot of good cornerbacks is a good problem to have,” O’Neil said. “Our best three will play.”


link

I hope he's right. I'd love for Mingo to prove we don't need another pass rushing OLB. I think we've been over thinking Mingo's role or maybe trying to find something else for him to do (like going into coverage) because of his shoulder injury. Let him attack the QB. That's supposedly what he was drafted for. He's too athletic and fast NOT to use hime for that. Let him do what he was drafted for. Desir had a few flashes of good play but he has a long way to go. That, and he's behind Haden, Williams, Williams, and Gilbert. Desir was drafted at the end of the 4th round so even if he ends up being a backup, it was worth it. If he ends up being well above his draft selection like Skrine was, even better. Still very raw.

O'Neill doesn't come off as a BS-er to me. Kinda like Pettine. I really believe he means what he says. Whether he's right or not will be determined.

I thought it was interesting that they expected to "redshirt" Desir this past year.

Why?

Without going into detail....just that we should have patience with our draft picks.

Oh, I agree. I think injuries and lack of production from the #8 pick may have expedited that, unfortunately.

Hell, now that I think of it, what injuries? Just a lack of production from Gilbert.....everyone moved up a notch.

Mingo.....

'' stop, before 15 decides to come out the woodwork again on me about mingo.

I take notice when coaches praise players. Not head coaches so much, but coordinators.

I thought Mingo was pretty good as a rookie, but was disappointed w/him this past year. I didn't realize that he hurt his shoulder. I think he has talent. We'll see.

DeSir? Not sure I see what his coach does. The guy gave up SIX first down completions in that game. That's not good. He doesn't have very good hips and I don't see him as a good tackler. Hopefully, I am wrong. I once thought Skrine sucked and he proved me wrong.

Skrine surprised almost everyone. well, at least until he left. Then suddenly people felt like he sucked again. lol

I was sad to see him go. With his improvement trajectory over his 1st contract, I was keen to see how much more he could do. I really don't think he's hit his ceiling yet... at all.

I hope Desir has the same improvement that Buster showed. If so, it takes a lot of draft pressure off the FO in the next 2 years.

Well I for one understand why he is not a Brown. I saw and explained his value since his rookie year - yeah yeah I'm a homer...but I do assess and evaluate, I saw him improve and that is the litmus test of a possible good player to continue with and observe his progress.

I was very impressed with K Williams as a rookie.

DeSir - I did see improvement in his play from the early looks to when we had to use him at the end of the season.

Gilbert - I was disappointed as all were as a high pick CB and his progress. All though in all honesty I did see improvement just not in the scale we would expect for his station of investment. Like all, I had no clue that there were personal issues that played into his retardation of development. Could be bad if it continues and is not solved. Could be good if it is resolved and he is a good prospect again.

Skrine - I liked his ability to play Outside if needed there are many nuances that are different and for him to be Inside then play Outside was tough. But he did it. He will never be a Pro-Bowl type of Outside CB...He could become the best Inside CB and a possible Safety like Adams became in the future??? He wanted to test the waters. He was blessed to get an amazing contract...I don't blame him one bit. I don't blame our guys one bit. I do think the Jets were stupid and desperate to appease the NY Media and their Owner. They will have to blow up that D-Backfield soon enough. Just too much Money for CB.

jmho

He showed some potential. Wish we could have seen a little more reps, but I think he'll have a bigger chance to increase his playing time this year with Skrine's departure. And to learn from Williams and Joe Haden.

I'm real anxious to see how the corner spot shakes out. Well more so the battle between Gilbert, Williams and Desir for the #2. IMO, no one will be capable of beating out K'Waun at nickel.

Why do you have to resort to making things up?

Heres my take on Farmer, agree with me or not. I see AS A WHOLE his draft was very well done.

Bittonio would be a top 5 pick this year and is going to be a yearly pro-bowler

Kirksey looks like a great value pick and I see good things for him

Then you look at the talent he was able to get inf UDFA with Gabriel and Crow, and I honestly cant remember a draft/post draft that someone acquired so much talent.

I would say as for JFF the jury is still out, but he seems like a longshot but I am willing to give him another go before I pass judgement.

Gilbert so far from everything I have read seems to have got his head on straight and has been working out with Haden this offseason. I believe that he will show vast improvement especially with Tramon here to give him that veteran leadership.

You cant really grade a draft for 3 years is most cases. But I believe his draft was pretty well altogether.

Crow was easy. All that took was the willingness to take a flyer on him.

Everybody knew he was talented. But his off-field issue made him a risk and kept them away.

Luckily he's been on the straight-and-narrow so far. Hope he maintains that.

terrence west is nothing to sneeze at either.

Really I'm not. When reading this board, most all posters raved about how much Skrine improved with each year he played. And I agree with that.

In the thread about which potential FA's our FO needed to re-sign, Skrine was on almost everyone's list. Now this was While Skrine was playing as an outside CB.

Now all of a sudden, we are better off with an aging veteran and Skrine is strictly an inside CB. I just find it funny how things change like the direction of the wind around here.

Possibly some will object to your reference of him being an outside CB in their opinion - Which in our case he played not out of planning but out of necessity. I think if you picked the brain of the coaches their attitude towards Skrine was always to be the Inside Corner.

As for posters being hypocritical. Especially in players here vs gone. Of course - its a very natural thing to do.

In many cases I back the player to the hilt while a Brown cause he is a Brown...once they leave I can be a little more brutally honest about them. Some I would ream some like Skrine I would be true to most my opinions of him here.

Some I guess would interpret that as a hypocrite (I know you are not saying that about me with Skrine cause I haven't bashed him) but that's just me as a fan. While they are Browns I'm looking for them to progress as young football players as long as the Coaches don't give up on them.

I am not a hypocrite when they indeed do leave our team and I let into them like I never did before. My opinion on that is hey the coaches dropped him so will I as a fan as I never fandom individual players. They are a Brown - They are Gold to me.

But I think you might be off base here. Cause there are many many dawgs who opined dissatisfaction about Skrine when he was a Brown...most of them are the ones bashing him now can. I know cause in the past I would defend Skrine in debate/discussion. Now I would state my opinion...end of story, no need to debate he's not a Brown.

jmho

I think you are spot on there Pit...but at the same time, Skrine is now most-definitely an Inside Corner. The Jets were willing to pay that $$$ for a guy like him and we weren't.

I think of myself as the first and biggest Skrine pimp on this board. I wanted us to re-sign him. However, once I saw the $$$ he got, it made sense to me to let him move on...and that was BEFORE the Williams signing.

Better off? I dunno...we shall see. But it makes sense to me.

Ninja'd- by Willie.

nothing for me to add.

well-put, Dawg.

Terrence West was not good last year.

Well, let's wait and see how well his first round picks pan out ...