pretty much all that but you forgot Tyrone Holmes who I would guess would be ahead of Orchard, seeing as how he was ahead of and more productive than him in our four man fronts last year.
Who's gonna replace those guys you see being cut? Orchard is still young and would be returning to a position wherein college he had a ton of production. Cooper is still young, fairly cheap and could be better in the 4-3, was a little mis-cast as a 5 tech. The only way I see Davis going is if we move Kirksey to the middle. I cold see Bryant going. I definitely don't see all four of those guys going. That's a lot to lose.
I was lucky enough to be at the game week 2... Holmes was clearly the most talented edge rusher we had at the time. Ogbah picked it up a lot by the end of the year, but I still think Holmes is better than Orchard.
Who's gonna replace those guys you see being cut? Orchard is still young and would be returning to a position wherein college he had a ton of production. Cooper is still young, fairly cheap and could be better in the 4-3, was a little mis-cast as a 5 tech. The only way I see Davis going is if we move Kirksey to the middle. I cold see Bryant going. I definitely don't see all four of those guys going. That's a lot to lose.
We currently have ten draft picks, with more on the way when compensatory picks are awarded. We will probably sign several free agents.
Someone has to go. We can't keep everyone on the roster. Orchard and Cooper we drafted by Farmer and Pettine. Davis will be on the field for 20% of the plays (at best).
I was lucky enough to be at the game week 2... Holmes was clearly the most talented edge rusher we had at the time. Ogbah picked it up a lot by the end of the year, but I still think Holmes is better than Orchard.
He's also a physical freak of nature.
He's the kinda guy, along with Powell, that if we got good, and he was a key contributor, people would look back and say "Why did [INSERT CRAPPY TEAM HERE] cut him?"
You know, like everyone does with our former players.
I think Shelton fits exactly what Williams would want from his 1 Tech...Shelton has good explosion especially after he lost the weight. He eats blockers which is still good for 4-3!
I'd like a guy there who can penetrate and get in the backfield just a little more then Shelton does. A guy who can split the double teams. Just my personal preference. Some guys like the guy to eat up blockers.
I don't see Bryant being cut..I mean, maybe. But, imagine our DLine looking like this: Garrett, Bryant, Shelton, Ogbah OR replace Garrett with Allen?
I do, however, see Davis and Orchard being cut. Maybe Cooper too. Davis, seems the odd man out in many respects. He was brought in to be a leader but, Kirksey quickly overtook him and now with Collins signing he seems even more pushed away. That said, Imagine our LBs at Davis/Kirksey/Collins. Not a bad front 7 if you take into account the four above. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if we did cut him. What was the contract we signed him on?
He can do both and that penetrate extraordinaire would be the 3 Tech guy which if Shelton takes on the double team the 3 tech guy should have a field day. Shelton penetrates pretty well himself. Watch some film.
I could see Bryant, Davis, Cooper, and Orchard all being cut before the start of the 2017 season.
Bryant was our best DL in 2015 and came to us after playing 3T in a 43 defense.
IDKY, folks want to kick him to the curb for?
I don't think anybody want to kick him to the curb. I just expect it to happen. He is older, has one year left on his contract, is coming off a major injury, and we can cut him with little penalty. Also, playing Bryant takes valuable snaps away from our young players who need reps.
I'm probably in the minority.... but I kinda like Allen over Garrett.
Put Allen and Shelton inside with Ogbah outside with Bryant, Orchard, or Nassib I think that is quite formidable. I still think that's a winning formula to get to the quarterback.
Davis has one year remaining. I think he, Collins and Kirksey could be wonderful.
Haden and Taylor corners...
We will need a safety. I like Tony Jefferson in FA. Or we will draft one. The more I think about it the more I believe Poyer won't be re-signed. Reynolds is a nice player, I like him. But signing Powell means someone will be cut, no?
We will most likely draft a CB at some point as well.
Despite the crappy season, last year seems valuable in finding some key pieces to build upon. Our future is bright. Brighter than it's ever been.
Orchard sounds like a better fit as a 4-3 DE, then as a 3-4 OLB.
Here is his scouting report, from CBS. He sounds like he has tools that our new DC can use ..... maybe situationally .... but useful in the right scheme. If we can get a lead, he could be one of those guys who comes in later in the game, when the OL is wearing down a bit and pass blocking on every play ...and just wreaks havoc with his quickness. He's probably not a guy you want to play when the other team is running the ball on every down, trying to run clock.
A high school wide receiver, Orchard (full name is Napaa Lilo Fakahafua Orchard) committed to Utah early in the process and moved full-time to defense in 2011 as a true freshman reserve for the Utes. He became the starting left defensive end in 2012 as a sophomore and finished among the team leaders in tackles for loss (9.5), sacks (3.0) and forced fumbles (3), earning All-Pac 12 Honorable Mention honors. Orchard started 12 games at left defensive end in 2013 as a junior, recording 9.0 tackles for loss and 3.5 sacks, but had his best season in 2014 as a senior defensive end and linebacker.
He finished second in the FBS in sacks (18.5), first on the team in tackles for loss (21.0) and second in total tackles (84), earning First Team All-America and All-Pac 12 honors and winning the Ted Hendricks and Morris Awards. He went by Nate Fakahafua his first two seasons at Utah before taking his guardians' last name in 2013 (raised by guardian parents, has a relationship with his mother).
Orchard has natural flexibility to bend the edge and finds ways to slip blocks, but struggles to get much of a push, lacking a clear power element to his game to force the issue or overwhelm blockers. He might be ideally suited as a "Wide-9" defensive end at the next level, fitting best as a hand-on-the-ground 4-3 pass rusher.
STRENGTHS WEAKNESSES
STRENGTHS: Quick first step with long strides to accelerate well, routinely the first Utah lineman off the ball. Natural bend around the edge with closing burst to finish with purpose. High effort player and doesn't give up on plays, showing excellent pursuit from snap-to-snap. Subtle rush movements to set up moves, finding ways to get to the quarterback. Active and rangy for the position. Always alert with proper diagnose skills to read and react with timing and trust in what he sees. Good awareness vs. the run and tougher than he looks. Improved hand use as a senior to work off blocks, keeping himself clean with good length for the position. Works his tail off and highly competitive, giving consistent effort each snap and through the whistle. Wants to be the best and expects a lot out of himself. Defensive leader with excellent physical and mental toughness (wore the "C" proudly on his Utah jersey). Experienced at left and right defensive end and as the "STUD" linebacker for the Utes, lining up in both two and three point stances.
Mature lifestyle with a wife (Maegan) and infant daughter (Katherine Mae). Highly productive senior season, setting a school record with 18.5 sacks. Leaves Utah tied for third in school history in career sacks (25.0), second in career tackles for loss (38.5) and tied for second in career forced fumbles (8).
WEAKNESSES: Leaner-than-ideal frame and lacks muscle definition wanted at the position. Upper and lower body strength need developed to better hold his ground, often losing balance once blockers initiate contact. Struggles to generate power at the point of attack and needs to better convert his speed into strength.
Lacks the natural momentum to bull rush or put blockers on their heels. Needs to load more ammo into his hands to better punch at the contact point. Reads the run well, but lacks the consistent power to make stops. Average athletically with ordinary redirection skills and functional burst. Will struggle to collect himself and break down in space at times, even with a clear path to the quarterback.
Has some experience dropping into coverage, but doesn't look comfortable doing so with wild footwork and spatial awareness that needs refined the farther he gets from the ball.
COMPARES TO: Rob Ninkovich, New England Patriots - Although they have their struggles vs. the run, both Ninkovich and Orchard use savvy pass rush ability and a nonstop motor to be effective.
I wouldn't be surprised to see any of tge guys cut but it's going to come down to the wire. NOT bad considering were normally deciding which of the udfa will be cut.
I do watch film. It took me awhile to find it but he only had 2 tackles for loss last year, only 4 his rookie year, and only 24 in three years at Washington. That doesn't scream someone who can penetrate. For comparison BRIEAN BODDY-CALHOUN had 2 also.
I don't think we have seen what Nate can really do. First off he was injured most of last year and he had O'Neill here his first year who probably didn't know what to do with him ( for that matter no one else either). As someone said he would probably be better in a 4-3 anyway. I feel confident GW will get the most out of not only him but the rest of our D.
Then we agree, that's the position he played in college at Wisconsin. A wide 9 technique. I'll also add he racked up 21 TFL and 18.5 sacks his senior year playing RDE. It's his natural position.
Then we agree, that's the position he played in college at Wisconsin. A wide 9 technique. I'll also add he racked up 21 TFL and 18.5 sacks his senior year playing RDE. It's his natural position.
Utah? Did he really line up wide 9? Or did he just play defensive end?
On the Dline side, I figure we cut: Gabe Wright- Was a PS pick up. Skills vs competition ain’t there. Jamie Meder- All effort guy but doesn’t have the passrush skills we need as a 4-3 DT Dylan Wynn- Who? Nile Lawrence-Stample- Was an FA pickup. He’s more of a 3-4 NT Stephen Paea- He’s a FA. We likely don’t even take a run at him. Trevon Coley- Once again, who?
This leaves: 92 Bryant, Desmond DL 6-6 310 31 9 Harvard 96 Cooper, Xavier DL 6-4 300 25 3 Washington State 91 Holmes, Tyrone DL 6-2 253 23 2 Montana 94 Nassib, Carl DL 6-7 275 23 2 Penn State 55 Shelton, Danny DL 6-2 335 23 3 Washington 90 Ogbah, Emmanuel DL/LB 6-4 275 23 2 Oklahoma State
On the LB side, I figure we cut: Demario Davis- I don’t think he’s got the speed to play MLB in a 4-3 James Burgess- Who? Cam Johnson- Maybe they try him at DE but I think he’s just shown the door.
Nate Orchard is not cut, but they move him back to his natural position at DE.
This leaves: 54 Alexander, Dominique LB 6-0 235 21 2 Oklahoma 59 Carder, Tank LB 6-2 235 28 6 Texas Christian 51 Collins Sr., Jamie LB 6-3 250 27 5 Southern Mississippi 58 Kirksey, Christian LB 6-2 235 24 4 Iowa 53 Schobert, Joe LB 6-1 245 23 2 Wisconsin
So pre-draft and FA, our front seven depth goes: DE Ogbah/Holmes DT Shelton DT Bryant/Cooper DE Nassib/Orchard OLB Collins/Carder MLB Kirksey OLB Schobert/Alexander
Guys who are on the bubble for being replaced I’d say would be Holmes, Orchard and Cooper on the DL and Alexander and Schobert for LBs. Shelton isn’t the most natural fit in a 4-3 but he’s shown enough improvement to be given the chance.
IMO I'd have to think that Carder is closer to the bubble than before. For the last 2 preseasons we heard about how much improved his pass rush was, but come the regular season we didn't see much of him out there.
I did like what we saw out of Cam Johnson last season though.
If nothing else a lot of these decisions are going to be very very interesting.
I stopped right there cause in the past people would take my FACTS and OPINIONS strongly presented without insults...but taken as insults and then I get the "Oh you are Condescending, Snarky, I don't allow other opinions"
So I was bowing out of the discussion. You said what you said, I did also. End of the story. Don't want to do the dance.
I said look at the film...you said you did, if I go anything further it can only be taken as an insult. I'm not insulting anymore, at least trying not to
Tabber I find it insulting you don't want to be insulting
Btw my son hit a 370 yard drive the other week . He still attributes the success to your pointers. And I find that insulting I am now getting beat by an 19 year old
On the LB side, I figure we cut: Demario Davis- I don’t think he’s got the speed to play MLB in a 4-3 James Burgess- Who? Cam Johnson- Maybe they try him at DE but I think he’s just shown the door.
Nate Orchard is not cut, but they move him back to his natural position at DE.
This leaves: 54 Alexander, Dominique LB 6-0 235 21 2 Oklahoma 59 Carder, Tank LB 6-2 235 28 6 Texas Christian 51 Collins Sr., Jamie LB 6-3 250 27 5 Southern Mississippi 58 Kirksey, Christian LB 6-2 235 24 4 Iowa 53 Schobert, Joe LB 6-1 245 23 2 Wisconsin
So pre-draft and FA, our front seven depth goes: DE Ogbah/Holmes DT Shelton DT Bryant/Cooper DE Nassib/Orchard OLB Collins/Carder MLB Kirksey OLB Schobert/Alexander
Guys who are on the bubble for being replaced I’d say would be Holmes, Orchard and Cooper on the DL and Alexander and Schobert for LBs. Shelton isn’t the most natural fit in a 4-3 but he’s shown enough improvement to be given the chance.
I agree with pretty much all of this, I could see Davis sticking for another year. While we draft his replacement either this draft or next. I don't mind Kirksey at MLB but I think he could be the perfect weak side LB.
You can say whatever you want as your fact and opinion you're not gonna insult me. I got big boy pants. Frustrate me maybe but that's fine.
As for Shelton, I've watched quite a bit of tape and just don't see him penetrating, unless you're watching different tape or have different definition of penetrating. I see him get on the shoulders of guys and get a yard or two into the backfield but not splitting guys and exploding 3-5 yards into thebackfield.
Hopefully not as I think he'll be a far better fit in a 4-3 than in a 3-4. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say he's secure given that his production last season was more or less non-existent.
Hopefully not as I think he'll be a far better fit in a 4-3 than in a 3-4. However, I wouldn't go so far as to say he's secure given that his production last season was more or less non-existent.
And we are going to have at least thirteen draft picks (unless we trade them for more players, future picks, and/or trading up) and sign several free agents. Some guys are just going to get the axe because of the numbers game.
Tabber I find it insulting you don't want to be insulting
Btw my son hit a 370 yard drive the other week . He still attributes the success to your pointers. And I find that insulting I am now getting beat by an 19 year old
370 Get that kid a real coach and get him started with the tours!
It's weird, but it's almost as if I sometimes forget that we have Garrett.
Agreed. Maybe cause Garrett was a known thing coming in. Folks were deadset on him. After that, the rest of hte players are surprises.
Come training camp and regular season and Garrett will be the talk. I've been thinking about getting a Garrett T-Shirt, but might save it for a jersey for the wife or the dog. Garrett is gonna be here awhile, so it's a safe bet with them. And hopefully she'll know who he is (my Dog Carl doesn't care, he just likes wearing his Browns Jersey no matter who is on the back .!)
probably in no small part because they were winning and the other team had to pass
Even if that was the case, how much did it account for the percentage? 15%?
The league has changed all the way (for now).
oh yeah for sure. wasn't sure if that was saying sub-packages are the majority or that the Pats and Falcons went to the super bowl in part because they ran sub more than the rest of the league
Why do you assume that folks see something in Reynolds?
The Post right before Waterdawg had Reynolds penciled in as the Starter.
I don't see why that would mean that folks see something in him?
Who else should be penciled in at FS? It's not a value judgment on his ability or seeing something in him. He's the returning and only FS on the roster.
Ok that was just stupid of me thinking that he stated that from the post right before his having him at FS...my bad
As for myself I have Powell talent wise as our FS but Reynolds has some positives that centers around football intelligence for a position noted for football intelligence who knows how he will progress - I think this is his 3rd year in 3 different Defenses mind you.
Next time just say...Oh I didn't see that post instead of making up some total BS so that you look good
Hey if you're saying it was stupid of you who am I to disagree? Lol.
It's a simple point that you're trying your hardest to make it into something it's not.
For the reading impaired....listing the actual starting FS isn't a value judgement of him as a player. It's a statement of fact. Love him or hate him when listing the starters for this defense it makes 0 sense to pencil anyone other then Reynolds at FS.
I keep hearing you refer to Shelton's deficiency as a gap penetrator and I don't necessarily disagree. What your're ignoring is his production against the run. He was among the best in the league in that area on a very bad defense. We will need players who put offenses in 3rd and long situations. Shelton will help us do that. Also I wouldn't completely dismiss him having a role on third down or obvious passing situations. You can judge him as you see fit but when you evaluate his role in combination with our other interior defensive linemen its not a simple assessment of his value. It's a mistake to evaluate him in isolation or, on a single aspect of his game. I think Williams is known for getting the best out of guys and Danny hasn't yet played a snap in Williams' scheme. I'll reserve judgement.
Shelton's role last year was NT, to stuff the run and eat blocks. He did it well.
I expect that he will play mostly 1T, but it wouldn't surprise me to see Williams flip the script and play Shelton at 3T in certain circumstances, and against certain Guards.
How do you guys see our current personnel fitting Williams defense?
Shelton, Danny DL 6-2 335 NT but I'm not 100% he fits what Williams wants to do
I think Shelton will fit. He'll have a role even if its the same "NT" style from last year. But I expect that Shelton will be allowed/asked to penetrate more and iirc when he was at UDub he was known getting into the backfield with TFL and sacks in addition to stopping the run. ------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By: dean_fairchild
Originally Posted By: clevesteve
Definitely a possibility. I would put the likelihood of being cut at:
1) Orchard 2) Bryant 3) Davis 4) Cooper
Who's gonna replace those guys you see being cut? Orchard is still young and would be returning to a position wherein college he had a ton of production. Cooper is still young, fairly cheap and could be better in the 4-3, was a little mis-cast as a 5 tech. The only way I see Davis going is if we move Kirksey to the middle. I cold see Bryant going. I definitely don't see all four of those guys going. That's a lot to lose.
You make a good point about DD.
He's good just as long as he's going down hill and not having to give chase side to side AND being that the more range your MLB has the better AND being that Kirko can get downhill and has range/coverage ability AND being that DD is likely not going to part of nickel/dime defenses....it basically seems like DD is a limited player when he plays AND he won't be playing often since sub-package are essentially the base D (anywhere upwards of 60% of the time).
Could def see Kirko at Mike, Collins at SAM and Alexander/Schobert at WILL in base 43.
I think between Bryant/Cooper they're gonna keep 1. Can Cooper still be stashed on practice squad or does he have too many game snaps?
There's a glut of edge rushers with Myles, Ogbah, Nassib, Cam Johnson, Orchard, Holmes....
The secondary is trash. I know that sounds negative, but I really, really think we have a terrible secondary.
I agree, but there is potential - even moreso if the Front 7 plays to their potential, though I still feel we are lacking at Linebacker.
If the Front 7 can stop the run and get pressure, we just MIGHT see Haden return to his old form, and I have little doubt that we'd see the others back there look a little better as well.
All that being said.... I think we'll get torched in the air, but handle teams well on the ground.
Reality is I hated Horton and his defense and I like Williams defence since his time in buffalo n Washington. I also like what we have for this scheme.
I agree. I think CB, with Haden, Taylor BBC and now McCourty whats not to like? Peppers mans one Safety spot and we just need to find another one to go along with him. Should be plenty after cut downs and FA.
The secondary is trash. I know that sounds negative, but I really, really think we have a terrible secondary.
I don't known what kind of secondary we have.
Haden tore both groin muscles. Tramon Williams played the other corner a lot of last year. Boddy-Calhoun was aa rookie. We had injuries at both S positions. Add in that we struggled to get any kind of pressure on opposing QBs, and it crated a really bad situation at the back of our defense.
I think that we'll get a truer read of what we have in the secondary this year.
We'll see. I want to see how Tyvis looks, and I'm willing to cut Reynolds some slack since he didn't get added to the roster till after the "final" round of preseason cuts last year. Hard to be the leader on the back end when you weren't there for the install. Throw in McCourty and I think we'll have better FS play than we had last year. Add a pass rush and we might at least be competitive.
Hopefully the additions and 4-3 switch will stiffen up the run D to the point we don't have to throw the safeties in the box as much and they can focus on coverage.
Hey if you're saying it was stupid of you who am I to disagree? Lol.
It's a simple point that you're trying your hardest to make it into something it's not.
For the reading impaired....listing the actual starting FS isn't a value judgement of him as a player. It's a statement of fact. Love him or hate him when listing the starters for this defense it makes 0 sense to pencil anyone other then Reynolds at FS.
We are far worse in the secondary than on the dline. Fail by the FO.
I think they tried and missed. We offered Tony Jefferson a better contract (so did the Jets) and he went to Baltimore.
I would have liked it if we addressed corner and safety in the draft as both positions were very deep.
The front office definitely failed to address some holes in our secondary, whether that turns out to negatively affect our performance remains to be seen (maybe one of the younger guys steps up).
I would have liked it if we addressed corner and safety in the draft as both positions were very deep.
But we did...
Jabril Peppers- SS Howard Wilson- CB
Do you mean earlier in the draft? Particularly CB?
Add Powell off waivers. Not sure where he is going to play. He played FS at OSU, but Seattle had him playing CB. I think the Browns will be looking at him at FS.
I would have liked it if we addressed corner and safety in the draft as both positions were very deep.
But we did...
Jabril Peppers- SS Howard Wilson- CB
Do you mean earlier in the draft? Particularly CB?
Add Powell off waivers. Not sure where he is going to play. He played FS at OSU, but Seattle had him playing CB. I think the Browns will be looking at him at FS.
Powell was undrafted and cut by a team that develops secondary players very successfully. My hopes are not high for him.
I would have liked it if we addressed corner and safety in the draft as both positions were very deep.
But we did...
Jabril Peppers- SS Howard Wilson- CB
Do you mean earlier in the draft? Particularly CB?
Add Powell off waivers. Not sure where he is going to play. He played FS at OSU, but Seattle had him playing CB. I think the Browns will be looking at him at FS.
Powell was undrafted and cut by a team that develops secondary players very successfully. My hopes are not high for him.
Based on what I've read (I posted an article in the BBC thread) Seattle waived him reluctantly. He was an organizational favorite but got caught in a numbers crunch.
I do agree with you to an extent. I won't go as far to call it a fail though.
I don't see any position they drafted as not being a need. They all filled a void or a needed upgrade at their position. I believe a CB or FS would have been drafted had Kizer not had fell into our lap at #52.
As with you I'm disappointed they didn't address CB and FS at some early point in the draft, we had so many holes to fill that there's no way they could all be addressed.
There was a lot of value at CB and FS in this draft so we agree that opportunities were missed. I do however feel they followed their BPA. At this stage of our teams development, I can't say I blame them and that's something I've always wanted us to do.
While I feel you may have a point to a degree, it's obvious he was their 54th best player or someone else would have been let go. Any way you slice it, he was at the bottom of their roster.
I think looking back I'm good with what the FO did in the draft. I was gutted we did not grab Desmond King as he fell. There must be something there but he was a 1st round talent post college season and I felt would make a really good ball hawking FS who is actually physical and has an edge. He was a very good CB.
I thought the browns did a good job of drafting Wilson and then signing Harmon. I didn't really see either being a good corner at this level but thought both could be very good free safeties at this level. not great cover skills but fantastic ball instincts. Its why I liked Gipson so much. Just fantastic ball instincts.
While I feel you may have a point to a degree, it's obvious he was their 54th best player or someone else would have been let go. Any way you slice it, he was at the bottom of their roster.
Agreed, I think the thing here is they had to choose between someone who could help immediately in a playoff situation vs. someone they felt had good potential. Either way, the 54th best player on the Seahawks is probably somewhere in the 40s on the Browns.
Powell was undrafted and cut by a team that develops secondary players very successfully. My hopes are not high for him. My hopes are high for almost the same reasons.
UDFA doesn't matter to me. But he was on a team that was deep in Safeties which was the position he was being groomed at primarily...CB secondarily. My hope is that he learned something and is a much better prospect then he was coming out of college. The release was a little confusing...One mans trash can become another's treasure.
This link is in the Body-Calhoun thread. It illustrates why it is simplistic and superficial to decide a player's worth just by the fact that he was released.
On the criticism that the team passed over good secondary talent. There remain several areas of need on the team. All of them couldn't be addressed in one draft. There was a lot of focus on the secondary among posters pre-draft. I get that. But to me it would have been more negligent not to have added two interior DL given our change of scheme to a four man front.
To piggy-back on gaurd's point, this team has had problems in the trenches on both sides of the ball. It looks like the focus of the FO this off-season was to address these issues. The team has other issues, to be sure, but this off-season seems to be about building the trenches.
This link is in the Body-Calhoun thread. It illustrates why it is simplistic and superficial to decide a player's worth just by the fact that he was released.
If Powell was obviously a quality player, he would not have been cut. There is a chance he develops into a better player than he is, but a team that is great a developing players just like him cut him. He also went undrafted.
I am not saying Powell will good or bad. I don't know. I am saying there is a chance Powell is good and there is a greater chance that he will be bad.
Respectfully we disagree. The article outlines the complexities involved at arriving at that decision. If you prefer not to consider the intricacies of roster management in this case, one of the few cases where the many nuanced elements under consideration are available then of course your position makes perfect sense.
Respectfully we disagree. The article outlines the complexities involved at arriving at that decision. If you prefer not to consider the intricacies of roster management in this case, one of the few cases where the many nuanced elements under consideration are available then of course your position makes perfect sense.
I read the article. I just don't think a team would cut a player that they think will be pretty good just because of a numbers crunch. If you like a player, you find a way to keep him on the roster.
You took the insult well, LOL. I meant it as sarcasm more than insult so apologies for the offense.
Where we differ is I see a confluence of circumstances where this seems to have been unavoidable.
WE actually disagree on Peppers too. I cut this piece from an article on Dawgs by Nature" link
A "veteran defensive coach" chose the Browns drafting Jabrill Peppers, believe it or not, believing that Peppers being paired with Gregg Williams is a perfect fit and comparable to what Williams did with DB Lamarcus Joyner.
"Everybody kept saying, 'What is this guy?' After watching Gregg Williams' defense, I think that Peppers is the perfect fit for that Joyner role. I can just see [Williams] going there and thinking 'Peppers is a perfect guy in my defense.' ... Peppers can be a freelance playmaker. Let him make his own plays. That's who that guy is in that system. I think it will be a great team for him. Williams also plays plenty of zone defense, so Peppers won't always have to be in man-to-man."
I'm looking forward to see this Gregg Williams 43 defense on the field.
Based on how bad the defense was last year they can't help but improve.
They added a freak edge rusher in Garrett.
I believe they've upgraded the DL with Brantley and Ogunjobi.
McCourty add's to the coverage at CB.
Pepper's upgrades the safety spot.
They didn't address every need e.g. FS but the areas they did address coupled with the Gregg Williams should produce better results on the field.
Ogun and Brantley should help with the run D and with interior pressure.
IF they can improve the run def it should allow more opportunities to pass rush in favorable situations.
Pass rush should be better with Garrett bringing heat from one edge and Ogbah from the other and w/ Brantley/Cooper/Ogun bring more pressure up the middle then last year.
More pressure up front should help the secondary which should have better coverage at CB and SS from McCourty and Peppers.
We all have our opinions, just like we did last year and the year before that and the year before that. Each year, people who try to be realistic are told they are negative and don't get it.
I'm NOT trying to change your mind, but not sure why certain posters can't accept the opinions of others, especially given the history of said posters.
I'm just providing supporting rationale for why I believe what I believe. Every poster can state their position. I will make an honest effort not to slip into the easy personal attacks.I really enjoyed how the Kizer QB mechanics discussion turned out so I'm willing to try to keep it about football. At the same time I will make as complete an argument for what I think as I suspect you will.
I do agree with you that our secondary was horrible last year. I think it was YT that made a post explaining some of the contributing factors. Some of that has been addressed during the offseason. None of it will be proven until the season starts.
Well Vers, I like our potential but as of now but I see Danny, Kirksey and Collins as the only guys on our entire defense that doesn't have glaring question marks.
I know Ogbah getting a lot of love but he really never showed me enough to be that excited about. Haden just had surgery on both Groing muscles. Desmond coming off another injury.
Nassib was not the same after the wrist. Went from the best player we had at getting off the snap to maybe the slowest player in the league at anticipation and get off.
Not saying its all doom and gloom because we have probably the most physically gifted defense we have fielded in some time and the 4-3 should help tremendously.
At the end of the day however, all we really have are a plethora of unanswered questions and hope for better than last year.
The Cleveland Browns may be considering moving Nate Orchard to defensive end, but even a position switch may not be enough for him to earn a roster spot.
The Cleveland Browns have put considerable work into their defensive front seven in the past year.
The club has added defensive linemen Emmanuel Ogbah, Carl Nassib, Myles Garrett, Larry Ogunjobi and Caleb Brantley in the past two drafts, along with linebacker Jamie Collins via a trade and subsequent re-signing.
They topped it off by bringing in defensive coordinator Gregg Williams in an attempt to wash away the stench left behind by Ray Horton and develop all the young talent into a defense that other teams fear.
The infusion of talent and a change in philosophy under Williams will give the defense a new look and create new roles for certain players.
It may also spell the last chance for another one of former general manager Ray Farmer’s draft picks, as Terry Pluto points out in his column today on cleveland.com:
I hear they are looking at Nate Orchard as a defensive end in the 4-3 defense. The second-round pick was a linebacker in Ray Horton’s 3-4. He may be better suited for defensive end. He was a 4-3 defensive end at Utah when he had 18.5 sacks in 2014. He played only three games last season because of an ankle injury.
Orchard was selected in the second round of the 2015 NFL Draft after finishing second in the nation in sacks. He was to follow in the footsteps of Browns legends Kamerion Wimbley and Barkevious Mingo as the next great college defensive end turned pass rushing terror at outside linebacker.
But just like Wimbley and Mingo, things have not gone as planned for Orchard.
He appeared in 15 games his rookie season, making 11 starts, and finished with three sacks. Orchard only appeared in three games in 2016 before missing the remainder of the season with an injury, finishing the year with no sacks and just two tackles.
With the growth of the passing game in the NFL, teams spend a large amount of time during a game in a nickel defense, which under Williams means that the Browns take a linebacker off the field for the extra defensive back.
After signing Collins to a contract with more than $26 million in guaranteed money, and with linebacker Christian Kirksey becoming one of the league’s rising stars, they are not coming off the field any more than is necessary, which leaves Orchard on the outside.
Even making a more back to defensive end will not guarantee the underperforming third-year player a roster spot.
The Browns kept just seven defensive linemen on the final roster to start the 2016 season (eight if you count Ogbah, who was originally listed as a linebacker. Let’s assume they go with eight when the final roster cut downs take place in September, the first seven spots will likely go to Garrett, Ogbah, Nassib, Danny Shelton, Ogunjobi, Jamie Meder and Brantley.
That leaves Orchard fighting for a spot with 31-year-old Desmond Bryant, who missed all of 2016 with a pectoral injury, and Xavier Cooper, a fellow 2015 draft pick who has done about as much for the Browns as Orchard.
Brown has done a lot of work to clean up Farmer’s mistakes as only have of Farmer’s 18 draft picks currently remain on Cleveland’s roster.
Don’t be surprised if, come September, Orchard’s name is added to that list.
They topped it off by bringing in defensive coordinator Gregg Williams in an attempt to wash away the stench left behind by Ray Horton and develop all the young talent into a defense that other teams fear.
and
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Brown has done a lot of work to clean up Farmer’s mistakes as only have of Farmer’s 18 draft picks currently remain on Cleveland’s roster.
Don’t be surprised if, come September, Orchard’s name is added to that list.
Orchard peaked in college. But genius Farmer spent took much time looking at his Street and Smiths or Pro Football Weekly Draft guide he got at Wal Mart to actually look beyond the numbers that Orchard put Orchard isn't strong enough to push guys back into the QB Or quick enough to get a first step off the ball. He's the new verison of of David Veikune
I would agree that Orchard is one the bubble, but I also don't think that he is competing with the DT's mentioned, they and Meder will be competing for that 4th DT.
Do you list Meder as a DE because that was his position designation in the 3-4 alignment from last year? To me, that position, 3-4 DE' is an interior DL position. A 1 or 3 technique in that scheme. Didn't he also take snaps at Nose Tackle?
I haven't gone back to watch any games to confirm this but I'm skeptical that Meder lined up often on the edge.
I'm saying all of this to say that its improbable, to me, that Meder will be asked to provide pass rush from the edge. He could possibly set the edge in a run defense but that seems to be a limitation in comparison to what he would offer in a DT rotation.
I like Meder and think he's an important part of our DL depth but he's doesn't have the speed, length, change of direction or flexibility to play 4-3 DE. I do envision him in a role as a 1-gap penetrating DT and a guy you can use on line stunts.
Goal line as well, and to block kicks maybe. He seems to go hard and I hope he is here for us. Never considered him a pass rusher before. That could just be Horton though. Should be a place for him, I would think.
Do you list Meder as a DE because that was his position designation in the 3-4 alignment from last year? To me, that position, 3-4 DE' is an interior DL position. A 1 or 3 technique in that scheme. Didn't he also take snaps at Nose Tackle?
I haven't gone back to watch any games to confirm this but I'm skeptical that Meder lined up often on the edge.
I'm saying all of this to say that its improbable, to me, that Meder will be asked to provide pass rush from the edge. He could possibly set the edge in a run defense but that seems to be a limitation in comparison to what he would offer in a DT rotation.
I like Meder and think he's an important part of our DL depth but he's doesn't have the speed, length, change of direction or flexibility to play 4-3 DE. I do envision him in a role as a 1-gap penetrating DT and a guy you can use on line stunts.
My guess is Meder is penciled in as the direct backup to Shelton as the 1-Tech. I also agree that he is an important part of the d-line and whatever roster decisions need to be made about the interior lineman, it'll come down to the 3-tech options, which there are quite a bit at this point. Gabe Wright was just released (not a shocker or anything) but the list of interior linemen got smaller by one.
j/c... The thing that is hurting Orchard the most is that he only played in 3 games last season and ended up on the IR.
I thought his transition to the OLB position was pretty good. On Running downs I thought he would be a good SAM for the run game. As that part of his game progressed.
If placed at DE to compete with who OGBAH for the starting position...we are talking sitting the bench. Also I remember Jamir Miller sitting Outside our DE and having an incredible year (pro Bowl) pass rushing wide.
If he will be at DE I don't see him making the roster or buried on the bench. A 2nd round pick who is not starting in his 3rd year is not going to last long.
I'm not aware of when this decision was announced or, if it was announced but it appears to be "official" that Kirksey is moving to an outside LB position. The official-ness of it comes from Kirksey acknowledging the move in response to media questions today at The Brown's Foundation Golf Outing.
I guess I had some ideas about how the defense would line up this season. From all that I've read about William's 'D' I expected a 4-2-5 to be our base alignment. With Kirskey and Collins as the two backers and Pepper's as the hybrid-defender. If it will be a traditional 4-3 and Kirksey isn't in the middle then who is likely to be in that position? Or, will they run a 4-2-5 with Collins playing more inside with Kirksey outside? If Peppers is the SS in the 4-3 is he able to perform the coverage duties that you would expect him to be responsible for? This implies a lot of moving parts and I'm not sure how to sort it out...interesting.
Ogbah, Bryant, Shelton and Garrett up fron Kirksey and collins at backer Kindred and Peppers at safety (we wont see a traditional free safety role) Taylor in the slot Boddy and haden wide
As w/all teams, I'm sure we will run all kinds of defenses. Just like last year, we were called a 3-4 defense, but we ran 4 and 5 man fronts all the time.
When we are in a traditional 4-3, I suspect that Kirksey will be the Will and Collins the Mike. Not sure who will be the Sam.
Hmmmmm.........LOL......I really have no idea. Do you think they would play Collins at the Sam and Davis at the Mike?
But again, I wonder how often we will even be in a traditional 4-3?
The Cleveland Browns are moving Christian Kirksey from inside linebacker to outside linebacker according to ESPN.
"I played outside in college, so I'm pretty familiar with playing outside. Last year playing inside was a big year for me. I think I took some strides forward. But I'm adapted to any position they want to play me at, so I don't think I'm too frustrated at thinking about going to outside from inside," Kirksey said.
Last season, the Iowa product played next to Demario Davis at inside linebacker. However, defensive coordinator Gregg Williams' scheme is a base 4-3 scheme, which means that there is no need for two starting inside linebackers; hence Kirksey's move.
As things stand, the Browns would roll out a linebacker corp of strong-side linebacker Jamie Collins, middle linebacker David and weak-side linebacker Kirksey.
The 24-year old recorded 148 tackles and 2.5 sacks last season. Pro Football Focus ranked the Missouri native as the No. 22 linebacker.
But again, I wonder how often we will even be in a traditional 4-3?
I would say that this will be determined by how well the guys we have on the roster can handle keeping us in the base 4-3.
If the guys up front can handle stopping the run, then we probably don't need to cheat up by going 5-2; if the guys up front can also get pressure and the secondary can hold up, then we don't need to cheat guys back there or spend all day in Nickel...... it's going to come down to who we're playing, what they can do, and what we can handle because things like 4-2-5 or 5-2 are things you do hide weaknesses or give help where you're getting hammered.
All I know is we got to stop that run! Its been an achilles heal of ours for like...forever!
Kirksey- Will, Collins- Mike, Orchard Sam???
Passing downs Orchard out and put Peppers as the Mike moving Collins out wide - both Kirksey and Collins cover pretty good. All 3 would be very Impact when they blitz. Peppers would be dropping back Deep if he doesn't blitz.
jmhguess I don't wish to see Davis Start especially to a Side line to side line MIKE position!
He doesn't think Kirksey is all that good. He would take him off the field.
If getting one new MLB is enough to push Kirksey to the bench, then how good could he really be?
You get what you earn.
Also, the only reason teams would go with only two linebackers is because they are covering for deficiencies in their ability to cover when in a base set.
Right now, however, Davis is our MLB - that can absolutely be upgraded. If we do that and Kirksey can't find a way to get on the field when we go to a 2-LB set, then that's his problem to fix, not anyone elses.
He doesn't think Kirksey is all that good. He would take him off the field.
If getting one new MLB is enough to push Kirksey to the bench, then how good could he really be?
You get what you earn.
Also, the only reason teams would go with only two linebackers is because they are covering for deficiencies in their ability to cover when in a base set.
Right now, however, Davis is our MLB - that can absolutely be upgraded. If we do that and Kirksey can't find a way to get on the field when we go to a 2-LB set, then that's his problem to fix, not anyone elses.
We don't have a middle linebacker because that position has been nearly phased out of the league. We have two linebackers that will play most of the snaps, Kirksey and Collins.
I believe Kirksey is pretty good and we shouldn't be trying to replace him with a high pick. You don't think he is all that good. That is fine.
Defensive personnel is a response to the offenses personnel.
The league plays 3 wide nearly 60-70% of the snaps...hence defenses playing nickel/dime packages with 2 LBs.
Defensive personnel on the field is also just as much a response based upon the capabilities of the defensive personnel available. If your LBers can't run & cover, then you have to find a way with other personnel. If they CAN run & cover, then you have much greater flexibility and don't have to spend as much time getting forced into sub-packages because your personnel aren't up to snuff.
Additionally, if your personnel and scheme are good enough, you can take things away from the offense and begin to force them to react to what you allow them to have.
If you assume that you will always be the one reacting and don't try to improve things because of that, you've already lost.
There are less linebackers on the field because most team play the majority of snaps with three wide receivers (at least). That leaves a tight end or a running back for the linebacker to cover. You can't have three linebackers on the field if there are three or more wide receivers. The game has changed, that is why there are less linebackers on the field, not because defenses are reacting to offenses.
I would like the idea IF he'd actually played S before. My current thought is that having him as one of the top 3 CB is better then having him try to learn the FS position brand new.
If J Mac can be the #1, #2 or #3 corner that in itself would be huge plus for the defense.
I would like the idea IF he'd actually played S before. My current thought is that having him as one of the top 3 CB is better then having him try to learn the FS position brand new.
If J Mac can be the #1, #2 or #3 corner that in itself would be huge plus for the defense.
Another angle though is we have Taylor, boddy, Caldwell and stribling as developmental talent at cb. Fs has.....Powell and nacua? Potential there but zero proven commodities. At least Taylor and boddy have some production history and trending upwards.
If Mac isn't considerably better than Taylor or boddy(I don't think he is) would he be more useful for us as a fs? As an 8 year cb it'd be much easier for him to jump in at cb in an injury situation rather than jump out of position to fs.
To add another wrinkle unless Haden has a phenomenal comeback it is very unlikely he'll return next season. Mac could be a cheap 1 year stop gap in 2018 as we rebuild cb and fs post haden.
I promise I am not tooting my horn here, but I think I was the first one who posted an article about how often teams play in the nickle. It was last year when we were discussing the prospects and people were arguing about whether a particular player could be a 3-4 DE.
I posted the article to educate people that teams are often in the nickle. It had a chart that showed how the percentage of plays in the nickle had increased each year [I think that is right, but there might have been one year where it wasn't the case.]
Anyway, at that particular point in time, teams were in the nickle almost 66 percent of the time. A couple of posters did not want to hear it because it meant that Bosa would be more valuable than many were giving him credit for.
With all that said..........I think [but could be wrong] that some posters are giving the impression that the Browns will not use 3 LBers. I'm sorry, but I disagree w/that.
Even if we run nickle 65--72 percent of the time, there is still the remaining plays where we will be in a variation of our base defense. I can assure you that we will have 3 LBers on the field during points of the game.
I am not really arguing against you guys. I'm just adding more information for the guys who just read and want to learn. I promise I am NOT attacking or slamming any of your takes. Just adding on. Cool?
Now, this part is just opinion and speculative. I think they are going to play Kirksey outside in the base defense for two reasons:
1. Collins was the lowest ranked defender of TEs in the NFL last year after he arrived in Cleveland.
2. Peppers can't cover very well.
Thus, I think we are going to use Kirksey more in coverage on TEs and RBs. I do need to give this more thought because I predicted he would be the Will. However, as many of you know....that is the opposite side of the formation if the offense has only one TE.
Hmmmm.........not really sure how we're going to manage this. Maybe covering RBs out of the backfield and/or the second TE???
Either way, I don't like that he won't be used as much shooting the gaps in the running game.
Did I ever tell you guys I despised the Peppers' pick? LOL
Good post Vers. My stance on the nickel issue is complicated. Everything you said I 100% agree with. Anyone who's curious who the 3rd lb might be I've never confronted. That's a great conversation actually.
I only come out of the woodwork when someone suggest we use a high pick on a 3rd LBer. I swear it happens weekly. But people don't seem to understand that it simply isn't how team management at the pro level works. You just can't keep your job by spending top 5 and likely top 15 lb money on two starters only to turn around and draft a 1st round Mike who will either sit 70% of the time or cause a massive contract to sit. That's similar logic to us drafting a DE next year in the 1st if ogbah and Garrett had 10 sacks each.
Then you have the fact that our new DC, who I'm very aware of your opinion on, technically ran dime over 90% of the snaps last year. Yes there are roster implications within that but if he's comfortable doing that is it not more likely he'd feel more comfortable in a Nickle with peppers as up safety? I think its much much more likely we may not invest heavily in LB for 3 years(assuming Kirk is resigned) than it is that we may spend large assets on a 3rd lb.
I like him, but I envision him as a late camp cut.
Who are you talking about? I'm confused.
I was replying to Guard.....his comments abour Meder
I'm already on record as someone who sees value in Meder. However, I did see a very small video sample of his play with commentary that suggest he was sub par in last year's run defense. A single video doesn't adequately reflect his play but it does raise questions about his fit in this scheme that will need to be answered. So I'll give closer attention to his play going forward.
McCourty should be playing CB. He should be competing for the 2nd spot or nickel spot. I think he would do well at nickel.
I don't think he has the quicks to play in the slot. I would guess that he plays outside when he's on the field with Taylor moving to the slot when there are three corners.
Realistically I think McCourty is our fourth corner right now behind the two previously mentioned players and Boddy-Calhoun. He's only guaranteed $2 million, so I don't think we're expecting much out of him. If he can contribute any value whatsoever I will be excited.
Didn't we just sigh Meder to a 2 year extension? if so I doubt he will be a late cut...I see that as being Des. With Brantley and Ojunjobi (spelling) as new editions to the D-line...Cooper must likely gone before Des.
I hope Meder makes it. I rarely wish for a player to "not" make it.
To me it is just going to come down to a numbers game. How many D linemen are we going to keep. It may not even come down to competition with other linemen. It may be a corner or runningback are kept over another d lineman.
Nobody is going to out work Meder for the job, and he always has the idea that he is on the bubble. He just shows up for work every day with a great attitude, works his ass off, and does what ever is ask of him. I wish every Browns player had that attitude.
So we know that Kirksey and Collins are going to play most - if not all - the snaps on D. We know that teams - and especially GW - are in the nickel 60+% of the time.
So...who is the 3rd LB in the 4-3 base? Is it Peppers with Kindred @ SS? Or is it someone else?
I think the answer is both...and I get that...but which other player is worthy of being that occasional, third LB? I'm not sure that guy is on the roster right now.
I could be wrong...Statistics aside I think Collins came to us from the Pats with a pretty good reputation for his coverage skills. So the stats of a half a season after Collins got here I don't think reflects in his skills.
So If correct that in the past Collins has had a good rep in coverage I agree Kirksey is decent in coverage as well. I think we will be mess apt to change sides when we are in nickle or dime D One will cover the TE unless he lines up on the outside.
jmho. In running downs I expect 3 LBs out there and SAM with Will will rotate as long as it is not a 2 TE set.
I hope not...I think Davis is better suited for a 3-4 ILB more than a side line to side line Mike. Their discipline is different. jmho
Between Alexander and schobert I would hope one is able to come through to replace Davis though I think we'd only use 3 lbs on short downs so that somewhat suits Davis to play downhill between the tackles
So we know that Kirksey and Collins are going to play most - if not all - the snaps on D. We know that teams - and especially GW - are in the nickel 60+% of the time.
So...who is the 3rd LB in the 4-3 base? Is it Peppers with Kindred @ SS? Or is it someone else?
It seems like you're asking 2 different question here.
In the base 43 which Gregg doesn't use often ~30% the 3rd LB would be an actual LB not a Safety.
My thoughts for base would be: SAM-Collins MIKE-Davis WILL-Kirko
ID Davis is gone then you could shuffled the deck of LBs with Schobert or Alexander added in. Schobert could probably play any of the LBs spots and Alexander could play the WILL:
So we know that Kirksey and Collins are going to play most - if not all - the snaps on D. We know that teams - and especially GW - are in the nickel 60+% of the time.
So...who is the 3rd LB in the 4-3 base? Is it Peppers with Kindred @ SS? Or is it someone else?
I know I'm in the minority here, and if a reporter is going to report he's not going to be here then there may be something really missing, but, I see it a completely different way. I go off of 2015's production and say that Orchard is the better Lb than Kirksey, especially coverage wise.
then, Kirksey is the obvious 3rd Lb and special teamer, he's been a plus on special teams anyways.
Another angle though is we have Taylor, boddy, Caldwell and stribling as developmental talent at cb. Fs has.....Powell and nacua? Potential there but zero proven commodities.
It going to be interesting how the secondary shakes out for sure.
I think Boddy's quickness makes him the best bet currently on the roster to cover the slot so in my mind i always picture him at NB.
Depending on who Haden is this training camp will have a lot of bearing. IF its the Haden from last year i'm not sure he's one of the top 3 CBs on the roster.
When looking at FS (single high/single post/center field) they only guy returning with any experience is Reynolds. After him everyone else is an unknown at the NFL level. Kai Nacua and Powell have college experience at FS and they bring good measurables to the table. I haven't watched any of Kai's tape I have no idea what kind of player he is....i liked Powell's tape enough that i was surprised he went undrafted. But with that being said those guys have an uphill climb. I add Peppers into the FS mix as well. But because he didn't even play the safety spot in college he has the steepest climb to ascend to starting FS. BUT imho based on his skillset alone its worth the experiment to see if he can learn the position. Although its a longshot Peppers does have the measurables to develop into the S he said he admires...Earl Thomas.
There are so many questions in the secondary....
Its gonna be interesting to me where these guys take their reps during OTAs and training camp.
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If Mac isn't considerably better than Taylor or boddy(I don't think he is) would he be more useful for us as a fs? As an 8 year cb it'd be much easier for him to jump in at cb in an injury situation rather than jump out of position to fs.
I don't know much about Mac's game, i've only looked at his PFF grade. But i think he would at least be #2 on the CB depth chart behind Taylor and maybe #3 if the ghost of Joe Haden 2014 shows up to camp.
In the case where Taylor and Haden emerge as the top 2 CBs and Boddy as the slot defender by training camp then i would be all for Mac attempting the move to FS.
Ed, just for clarity I dug into the sub package stats on the 16rams further. The 3rd and 4th lber only played 11 and 8% respectively.
That hard part becomes that their Nickle stat at around 85% is a Nickle with Mark Barron playing LB so it's basically a heavy dime. Heavy dime at 85% is unheard of even today. Some of that is personnel but if Williams continues the trend I could see us using 3 traditional lbers(none named peppers) almost never.
Ed, just for clarity I dug into the sub package stats on the 16rams further. The 3rd and 4th lber only played 11 and 8% respectively.
As some that searches that stuff from time i appreciate whenever someone else does it.
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That hard part becomes that their Nickle stat at around 85% is a Nickle with Mark Barron playing LB so it's basically a heavy dime.
Hmmmmmmnnnnn.....I have a question then....when they play Nickel i'm assuming its: 4 DL, 2 LBs and 5 DBs?
But you're saying that when they play Nickel they have a Safety playing "LB" But does that mean Barron is playing "LB" by positional alignment OR does it mean that they're actually only playing 1 LB and 6 DBs?
That brings up a lot of questions about there personnel that i want to look up....e.g.
-did they have more talent at DB then at LB? -how did the Rams make out against the run? -i wonder net-net how the Browns ILBs and DBs compare to the Rams
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Heavy dime at 85% is unheard of even today. Some of that is personnel but if Williams continues the trend I could see us using 3 traditional lbers(none named peppers) almost never.
Yep, it appears that IF Gregg continues his trend then ILBs outside of Collins and Kirko are fighting for a couple of spots and will have to be studs on special teams and be able to back-up multiple spots.
I wonder if having 2 capable ILBs like Collins and Kirko will allow Gregg to play more 'regular' Nickel.
I like him, but I envision him as a late camp cut.
Who are you talking about? I'm confused.
I was replying to Guard.....his comments abour Meder
I'm already on record as someone who sees value in Meder. However, I did see a very small video sample of his play with commentary that suggest he was sub par in last year's run defense. A single video doesn't adequately reflect his play but it does raise questions about his fit in this scheme that will need to be answered. So I'll give closer attention to his play going forward.
Here's the video.
In this video, what I'm seeing is Meder getting nudged off his block just a tad, and then the linebacker that's right there to make the tackle at the line getting lit up by the fullback. I'm talking about the first 2 plays where he's critiquing Meder. The video commentator is saying how Meder is getting blown away at the line, but I don't see it.
My guess is that Barron was considered a linebacker in the Rams' scheme. Which means they went with four linemen, two linebackers, and five defensive backs.
Lamarcus Joyner was the real hybrid guy for the Rams. For 2015, on Pro Football Reference, he's listed as a corner, defensive back, linebacker, and left corner.
My guess is that Barron was considered a linebacker in the Rams' scheme. Which means they went with four linemen, two linebackers, and five defensive backs.......Kirksey and Collins will probably be in the Ogletree Barron roles. Peppers in the Joyner role.
I think you and pred are right that Barron played in an actual LB position in Gregg/Rams defense "nickel" defense last year....which means their nickel was actually a "big" dime going by personnel.
I think with the personnel here it makes sense to play more "true" nickel because of Kirksey's versatility. I don't think you gain anything by removing Kirko and putting in any one of the safeties other then Peppers. But to me that wouldn't add talent it creates a hole by taking Kirko off and fills it by taking Peppers away from playing somewhere's else.
TLDR-I don't think Gregg will use a S at LB in nickel here.
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Lamarcus Joyner was the real hybrid guy for the Rams. For 2015, on Pro Football Reference, he's listed as a corner, defensive back, linebacker, and left corner.
I remember Joyner being used in multiple spots like a Tyrann Mathiu. Somewhere between a slot+FS. I'm not sure if there is a player like that on this roster because imo the key trait is coverage ability....maybe Peppers fits there like you say...i think Peppers could develop at SS and maybe even FS but covering the slot may be a bridge too far....my pick/guess for a slot/cb/safety would Boddy or McCourty.
I heard yesterday on CBD that the starting S were Ed Reynolds at Free and Kindred at Strong....i'm eager to see where Peppers will fit in.
[/quote]Hmmmmmmnnnnn.....I have a question then....when they play Nickel i'm assuming its: 4 DL, 2 LBs and 5 DBs?
But you're saying that when they play Nickel they have a Safety playing "LB" But does that mean Barron is playing "LB" by positional alignment OR does it mean that they're actually only playing 1 LB and 6 DBs?
That brings up a lot of questions about there personnel that i want to look up....e.g.
-did they have more talent at DB then at LB? -how did the Rams make out against the run? -i wonder net-net how the Browns ILBs and DBs compare to the Rams
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Heavy dime at 85% is unheard of even today. Some of that is personnel but if Williams continues the trend I could see us using 3 traditional lbers(none named peppers) almost never.
Yep, it appears that IF Gregg continues his trend then ILBs outside of Collins and Kirko are fighting for a couple of spots and will have to be studs on special teams and be able to back-up multiple spots.
I wonder if having 2 capable ILBs like Collins and Kirko will allow Gregg to play more 'regular' Nickel.
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Yes their Nickle was a 4-2-5 with Barron being one of the two lbers. That's what I mean when I say dime heavy. I think on most other teams Barron would be a thumper ss still albeit an average one. Tj MacDonald is pretty average himself but with Barron being more stout and their lb depth being so poor I think he decided to use Barron at lb for those reasons and it relatively succeeded. I think this was easily Barron most productive year.
As far as straight lineup I would say...
DE: unless garrett implodes we are better and potentially much better. Quinn has been very inconsistent and Hayes was at ogbahs level but Emmanuel has upside tbd.
Dt: Danny's above average and all but the rams murder us here. Donald and brockers with depth is tremendous
LB: they have ogletree who id say is similar to kirksey playstyle but slightly better. We have collins who they have no comparison so lber wise we have a pretty big up on and at least similar if not better depth.
WS: while stats consider Barron a lber he's actually technically a will safety which is what I project peppers as(though he'll likely play more true strong safety thanks to us having collins). While barron came into his own this year under williams i think pepper is the better prosoect all around. Itll be interesting to see how peppers does in comparison and where barron goes wothout an exotic coordinator.
Ss: MacDonald is average at best but it would take kindred more polish to even be his level. Probably similar players down the road imo
Fs: both horrible
Cb: if not for trumaine johnson I'd say talent wise we are equal and we probably outproduced our own talent level last year.
Overall I'd say we are maybe washed now with us having superior potential.
Without looking it up I remember that they were poor in total run defense(tends to happen With a horrid offense) but per play was slightly above average in run stoppage. Nothing crazy but not as poor as many people suggest. I'm also of the opinion the greatest run defense you can have is to score on offense so I don't care for total defense as a stat.
...Yes their Nickle was a 4-2-5 with Barron being one of the two lbers. That's what I mean when I say dime heavy. I think on most other teams Barron would be a thumper ss still albeit an average one. Tj MacDonald is pretty average himself but with Barron being more stout and their lb depth being so poor I think he decided to use Barron at lb for those reasons and it relatively succeeded. I think this was easily Barron most productive year......{moved out of sequence: Without looking it up I remember that they were poor in total run defense(tends to happen With a horrid offense) but per play was slightly above average in run stoppage. Nothing crazy but not as poor as many people suggest. I'm also of the opinion the greatest run defense you can have is to score on offense so I don't care for total defense as a stat.
I hear yah, i'm not a big fan of total yards stats...figuring out what they're really showing you requires too much work and the number alone doesn't tell me too much.
In regards to the Rams run def i went to my source for quick and dirty but meaningful team stats..Football Outsiders...http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/teamdef
Rams Defense: Overall: 16th Pass Rank: 20th Run Rank: 6th
Yeah it's my phone lol it's so difficult to post from it but my computer should be back soon.
That's really interesting numbers. So for LA it shows they have the top run stuffing DL but surrender yards in the open field. Where as we have the worst DL but were average once the runner pierced our line.
I'm surprised how poor they were in open field. Their safeties are poor but with ogletree and decent corners I thought they'd be average.
That leads me to believe that having Barron playing as a true lb hurt their open field run game. That combined with a lack of talent at safety and poor scoring offense but it definitely seems like his presence hurt their run support at the 2nd level.
Even more interesting is that chart that differentiates between run lanes. We were average when ran at danny and poor when ran at outside. But my god we were terrible at setting edge. That shows our weakness as mostly 5T and partially ILB and OLB. The new alignment helps and the combo of Garrett and ogbah not playing 5T at 260lbs should really improve that. With peppers in the fold I think he could help turn our outside run stop into a strength too.
..That's really interesting numbers. So for LA it shows they have the top run stuffing DL but surrender yards in the open field. Where as we have the worst DL but were average once the runner pierced our line.
+1
Quote:
I'm surprised how poor they were in open field. Their safeties are poor but with ogletree and decent corners I thought they'd be average.....That leads me to believe that having Barron playing as a true lb hurt their open field run game. That combined with a lack of talent at safety and poor scoring offense but it definitely seems like his presence hurt their run support at the 2nd level.
I guess it depends on how you chop up the credit/blame....
I would attribute 2nd level yards more to the backers (Ogle/Barron) and Open field more the safeties/corners TJ Mac and their CB.
Quote:
Even more interesting is that chart that differentiates between run lanes. We were average when ran at danny and poor when ran at outside. But my god we were terrible at setting edge... That shows our weakness as mostly 5T and partially ILB and OLB. The new alignment helps and the combo of Garrett and ogbah not playing 5T at 260lbs should really improve that.
Amen brother. I hated, hated, hated every single snap where Ogbah (or Nassib) lined up as 5tech...didn't make a lick of sense to me (of course back then it seemed like no one agreed with me). And once an OL gets the 5 tech moving good luck to anyone else in the front 7 getting a stop. If they get movement on the 5 tech on the LOS they are taking him for a ride and getting to the next level backer either blocking him outright or just getting in his way and creating trash for them to work around/through/over.
DE: unless garrett implodes we are better and potentially much better. Quinn has been very inconsistent and Hayes was at ogbahs level but Emmanuel has upside tbd.
Agreed. Ogbah as a rookie has already putting up numbers on par with Hayes. And Garrett....well Garrett could be every bit as good as Quinn or better.
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Dt: Danny's above average and all but the rams murder us here. Donald and brockers with depth is tremendous
Yup, they got Easley too. Right now its Shelton + a bunch on unknown quantities. Will Bryant return healthy and be the player from a couple/few years ago? Will Cooper a journey 3 tech DT benefit from not having to play out of position at 5 tech?
Then you got the 2 rookie DTs that I really like they will go a long to determining the quality of the DL which in turn will go a long way to determine the quality of run defense and the defense as a whole.
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LB: they have ogletree who id say is similar to kirksey playstyle but slightly better. We have collins who they have no comparison so lber wise we have a pretty big up on and at least similar if not better depth.
Agreed and they might be good enough to play more 'true' nickel as opposed to big dime.
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WS: while stats consider Barron a lber he's actually technically a will safety which is what I project peppers as(though he'll likely play more true strong safety thanks to us having collins). While barron came into his own this year under williams i think pepper is the better prosoect all around. Itll be interesting to see how peppers does in comparison and where barron goes wothout an exotic coordinator.
If there is a big nickel package I think Peppers could be better then Barron also.
question: its nickel situation. you have 2 safety spots to fill and 1 hybrid spot where you play either a LB or S. you have these 4 players to choose from: Collins, Kirko, Peppers, Reynolds, and 1 of (Kindred/Powell/Campbell).
Where do you play them?
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Ss: MacDonald is average at best but it would take kindred more polish to even be his level. Probably similar players down the road imo
If Peppers is allowed to learn 1 position I think he could be good quickly. If Peppers was to focus only on SS then I think he could quickly surpass Mac.
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Fs: both horrible
Alexander stepped up for them last year and they play/played Joyner there some snaps. I think there FS is both better and more settled. Again...because of Pepper's skillset I wonder if he could learn to play FS if that was his sole focus. I can think of anything better for the secondary then Peppers stepping up and owning that FS spot....but its not likely....Powell is another guy that I can see making the transition and holding down the FS spot...but that could be residual belief in him based on my film study and his measurables.
For me Rams wins FS by far.
Quote:
Cb: if not for trumaine johnson I'd say talent wise we are equal and we probably outproduced our own talent level last year.
Tru and Taylor match-up closely via PFF. And with the addition of McCourty + Boddy they're only a nose hair behind Joyner and Nickell Robey....and IF Haden returns to form then it would tip the scale to Gregg's boyz.
If Gregg's ends up using a lot of 1 LB defense I would like to see Collins get some chances to rush off the edge ala Giants of ole nascar package:
Collins--Ogbah--Cooper/Brantley--Garrett
random thought....I would love to see Collins play a Khalil Mack type role...or at least that's what I would do with him....43 under he would be the rush SAM backer.
Opportunity Arises for Browns CB Channing Stribling
Despite 24 draft picks over the last two years, the Cleveland Browns still have massive holes along their secondary.
In April, the team added Michigan's Jabrill Peppers in the first round to play strong safety and selected Houston's Howard Wilson in the fourth round to provide cornerback depth. But Wilson suffered a fractured kneecap during the second day of rookie minicamp, per ESPN's Adam Schefter. According to NFL Network's Ian Rapoport, the Houston product is expected to return within 12-16 weeks.
With Wilson out of the picture, another rookie can rise to the occasion.
Joe Haden, Jamar Taylor, Briean Boddy-Calhoun and recent free-agent acquisition Jason McCourty comprise the team's cornerback crew. The Browns have yet to commit to McCourty as a corner or a safety, though, per Andrew Gribble of the team's official site.
Quality depth is still required. Undrafted free-agent Channing Stribling has the tools and mentality to succeed in the role.
"I like Cleveland, I like that underdog and bringing teams back and being a part of that and building up a program,” Stribling said, per Patrick Maks of the Browns site.
At 6'1", the Michigan product brings a different dynamic to the team's defensive backs. None of the veteran corners on the roster are taller than 6'0". Stribling excels as a press corner, and defensive coordinator Gregg Williams employed Cover 1 over 25 percent of the time last season, per Pro Football Focus' Eliot Crist. In fact, the lanky defensive back allowed the lowest completion percentage among college cornerbacks last season, per PFF.
With Wilson's timetable running through training camp and uncertainty in the secondary surrounding the team's veterans, Stribling's skill set makes him a legitimate option for a roster spot and a potential contributor.
PFF started to post about him when they were introducing 5+ rounders. I thought he'd be drafted. Doesn't have the speed to cover a few guys, probably. He plays press pretty well (although he had 5 at the bench press) and it covers up those speed deficiencies, especially if he can hold downfield. I still really like him though and thinks he makes the team.
..That's really interesting numbers. So for LA it shows they have the top run stuffing DL but surrender yards in the open field. Where as we have the worst DL but were average once the runner pierced our line.
+1
Quote:
I'm surprised how poor they were in open field. Their safeties are poor but with ogletree and decent corners I thought they'd be average.....That leads me to believe that having Barron playing as a true lb hurt their open field run game. That combined with a lack of talent at safety and poor scoring offense but it definitely seems like his presence hurt their run support at the 2nd level.
I guess it depends on how you chop up the credit/blame....
I would attribute 2nd level yards more to the backers (Ogle/Barron) and Open field more the safeties/corners TJ Mac and their CB.
Quote:
Even more interesting is that chart that differentiates between run lanes. We were average when ran at danny and poor when ran at outside. But my god we were terrible at setting edge... That shows our weakness as mostly 5T and partially ILB and OLB. The new alignment helps and the combo of Garrett and ogbah not playing 5T at 260lbs should really improve that.
Amen brother. I hated, hated, hated every single snap where Ogbah (or Nassib) lined up as 5tech...didn't make a lick of sense to me (of course back then it seemed like no one agreed with me). And once an OL gets the 5 tech moving good luck to anyone else in the front 7 getting a stop. If they get movement on the 5 tech on the LOS they are taking him for a ride and getting to the next level backer either blocking him outright or just getting in his way and creating trash for them to work around/through/over.
Wait was there a stat for 2nd level run stopping? Maybe i missed that? I thought it was just DL and open field. That's why I grouped them in. I think ogbah had a great build for a 5T(with time to add weight) but he needed a year or two.
If Gregg's ends up using a lot of 1 LB defense I would like to see Collins get some chances to rush off the edge ala Giants of ole nascar package:
Collins--Ogbah--Cooper/Brantley--Garrett
random thought....I would love to see Collins play a Khalil Mack type role...or at least that's what I would do with him....43 under he would be the rush SAM backer.
I could see that. I think collins and Kirk will play as close to 100% snap count as anyone but Kirk will be our anchor. I see peppers in a similar light as collins. Obviously very different bodies but skill set I think is close. I could see collins rush while peppers fakes a blitz from the slot and vice versa. I'd even like to see some 5 man fronts with just Kirk standing with stunts.
My perfect lineup would be collins and Kirk with 4 DL, 2 CBS, a single high fs(player not on the roster) and a balanced safety/Nickle player(like mccourtey or taylor?) And use peppers as a chess piece. I'd line him up all over. Slot blitz followed by fake blitz into zone with collins screaming behind Garrett. There's just so much you can do with his closing speed imo. I want to use him like Troy P.
How did the Rams fare in giving up big passing plays last year?
As far as deep passing according to football outsiders they were 20th especially failing towards the left deep but below average overall. Especially failed at limiting the no1 wr and slot wr. Pretty good against TE and RB though.
How did the Rams fare in giving up big passing plays last year?
As far as deep passing according to football outsiders they were 20th especially failing towards the left deep but below average overall. Especially failed at limiting the no1 wr and slot wr. Pretty good against TE and RB though.
I wonder did FO break down these stats on quarters. Interesting whether big plays came equally throughout or more later in games. I'll bet Rams defense was top five in time on the field.
Rams had Todd Gurley and couldn't mustard any offense. I think that speaks volumes why the defense faulted.
How did the Rams fare in giving up big passing plays last year?
As far as deep passing according to football outsiders they were 20th especially failing towards the left deep but below average overall. Especially failed at limiting the no1 wr and slot wr. Pretty good against TE and RB though.
Rams had Todd Gurley and couldn't mustard any offense. I think that speaks volumes why the defense faulted.
Yeah, they were always falling behind and had to play ketchup.
How did the Rams fare in giving up big passing plays last year?
As far as deep passing according to football outsiders they were 20th especially failing towards the left deep but below average overall. Especially failed at limiting the no1 wr and slot wr. Pretty good against TE and RB though.
Rams had Todd Gurley and couldn't mustard any offense. I think that speaks volumes why the defense faulted.
Yeah, they were always falling behind and had to play ketchup.
How did the Rams fare in giving up big passing plays last year?
As far as deep passing according to football outsiders they were 20th especially failing towards the left deep but below average overall. Especially failed at limiting the no1 wr and slot wr. Pretty good against TE and RB though.
Rams had Todd Gurley and couldn't mustard any offense. I think that speaks volumes why the defense faulted.
Yeah, they were always falling behind and had to play ketchup.
How did the Rams fare in giving up big passing plays last year?
As far as deep passing according to football outsiders they were 20th especially failing towards the left deep but below average overall. Especially failed at limiting the no1 wr and slot wr. Pretty good against TE and RB though.
Rams had Todd Gurley and couldn't mustard any offense. I think that speaks volumes why the defense faulted.
Yeah, they were always falling behind and had to play ketchup.
I think Shelton would surprise in the nickel - he is explosive for sucha big guy and simply having him would create gaps for the others. Just MHO - I'd rather play him over Cooper. I think Shelton and Brantley / Ogunjobi (sp) would be a formidable pairing.
How did the Rams fare in giving up big passing plays last year?
As far as deep passing according to football outsiders they were 20th especially failing towards the left deep but below average overall. Especially failed at limiting the no1 wr and slot wr. Pretty good against TE and RB though.
Rams had Todd Gurley and couldn't mustard any offense. I think that speaks volumes why the defense faulted.
Yeah, they were always falling behind and had to play ketchup.
I'm assuming u posted your thoughts for discussion....so here's what popped in my head reading your personnel ideas for nickel
o predator posted GWill's nickel/dime tendencies earlier
o why a 3 man DL on nickel? why Orchard over the other options at LB...isn't he at his best as a hand in the dirt edge rusher?
o why Haden over McCourty?
o why start 2 S w/ 0 starts? other then him going to OH why start Powell over Reynolds?
1. Pretty sure I stated this is how I would utilize our personnel...and one thing about Williams he molds a lot of what he does with the Personnel he has. So I don't think too much about previous tendency without our Personnel.
2. 3 man DL thought process is that we got excellent blitzing LB and SS (Peppers) One of them will become our 4th Rusher. 2.b. I'm sorry but you are talking about college. In the NFL he's been a 2 point guy but if that truly is the case there is no reason as a LB he can come up and put his hand in the ground. But what I envision is the greatest SACK season we had and that was in 2001 with Jamir Miller lining up outside of our DE and blitzing from there. I can see all 3 Collins, Kirksey and Orchard having success there. Better than bringing in lets say a Nassib or another.
3. Why Haden over McCourty. If healthy Haden hands down I don't see the debate on this one.
4. Why start a Safety without starts. My thought process is that he wins the job. If its Reynolds that wins it fine with me. Reynolds has one more year than Powell.
For me its a new D system so None have experience playing in it. I do think that playing with Seattle he learned a lot in his one year. He did get 8 games of experience but I think some of those were strictly special teams.
He's my choice of winning the position battle. I don't care about the ONE YEAR advantage of experience that Reynolds has over him...now if Powell cannot transition into the new D that is a different story. But I'm trying to get our 11 best football players out there. As for OH...that has nothing to do with me. That has to do with you I guess as you bring it up. I'm not from OH I have no allegience to OSU, Indians or anything other than the Browns. I like OSU to win only cause many here love them so for their sake I like them to well.
Powell to me has little to do with his college and more to do with him coming from the team I THINK has the best safeties in the NFL. They got Devin Hester and had to make room...Our Gain
LB signings prove Browns embrace nickel package as base defense
By: Jeff Risdon | 15 hours ago
Most football fans are accustomed to seeing three, or perhaps even four, linebackers as the base defense. If those fans are expecting that look from the 2017 Cleveland Browns, they’re going to be either confused or disappointed. The Cleveland Browns have gone all-in on using
The Browns have gone all-in on using two LBs as the base defense under new coordinator Gregg Williams. The lucrative contract extensions for those two primary LBs, Jamie Collins and Christian Kirksey, are a clear sign Cleveland will be in the nickel (4-2-5) formation the vast majority of the time.
Browns sign Christian Kirksey to contract extension Take a look at how Williams used his linebackers with the Rams. Alec Ogletree and Mark Barron never left the field. In Ogletree’s case, that’s literally the truth; he was on the field for all 1090 defensive snaps in 2016. Barron played all but three in his first year as a full-time linebacker.
The next LB on the Rams’ snap count list in 2016 was Cory Littleton, who was in on 122 snaps. Josh Forrest played 90 as the two essentially split the third LB role. In just two games did either play more than 36 percent of the defensive snaps, and those were against offenses that use two tight ends a lot.
That was no fluke. Williams has fully embraced playing just two LBs as his base defense. In 2015 it was James Laurinaitis, a natural middle LB, who logged all but two of the Rams’ defensive snaps. Ogletree played over 96 percent of the available snaps in the first four games before getting hurt. Once he was gone, the combination of Akeem Ayers and Barron split the second LB reps.
Collins and Kirksey are perfect fits for how Williams deploys his two LB set. Collins is physical and can rush the passer. Kirksey is supremely quick to react and smart. Both are outstanding athletes.
Demario Davis will be the third LB. Expect him to play on about 25 percent of the snaps, mostly against teams who use two TEs or a fullback in the base offense. No other LB will see the field for more than a handful of defensive snaps, barring injury. That’s the Gregg Williams way.
It might take some time for fans, and more traditional media members, to adjust. That’s understandable. Just know that the new Browns defense is a base 4-2, not a 4-3.
would it be too much to hope for? that Peppers will be used like a troy polamalu type of guy. we can line up in all kinds of places and and turn him loose?...crossed my mind and made me smile...just curious.
It seems to me that most opinions I have read have Kirksey at the WILL and Collins at the SAM in a 4-2 nickel...then I mostly read Collins moves to MIKE in the 4-3.
Anyone willing to breakdown each guy and why said guy is 'slotted' as I'm reading? Too deep for me.
I have enough trouble keeping the WILL/MIKE/SAM differences in a 4-3 straight in my head...then we still say WILL & SAM in a 4-2.
The only one I can keep somewhat straight is the MIKE and the need for that MIKE to be a little more physical. But what happens to that physical need in a 4-2?
If the WILL is more a coverage guy and the MIKE more of a thumper...what is the mantra of the SAM?
I have enough trouble keeping the WILL/MIKE/SAM differences in a 4-3 straight in my head...then we still say WILL & SAM in a 4-2.
The only one I can keep somewhat straight is the MIKE and the need for that MIKE to be a little more physical. But what happens to that physical need in a 4-2?
If the WILL is more a coverage guy and the MIKE more of a thumper...what is the mantra of the SAM?
The SAM has coverage responsibilities with the TE, both will be used heavily in coverage and either can be used to blitz.
I preferred Kirko to cover TE's, but they have him at WILL for now.
Don't count out Schobert from winning the little used Mike LB. I know he's been outside in his career but I think he could make the transition...kid works hard and has an excellent motor.
I have enough trouble keeping the WILL/MIKE/SAM differences in a 4-3 straight in my head...then we still say WILL & SAM in a 4-2.
The only one I can keep somewhat straight is the MIKE and the need for that MIKE to be a little more physical. But what happens to that physical need in a 4-2?
If the WILL is more a coverage guy and the MIKE more of a thumper...what is the mantra of the SAM?
The SAM has coverage responsibilities with the TE, both will be used heavily in coverage and either can be used to blitz.
I preferred Kirko to cover TE's, but they have him at WILL for now.
I see that too...just with more hesitation as I'm trying to really understand the differences in this regard.
I think Kirksey is a better coverage guy than is Collins (although Collins is supposed to be good there too)...then I see Kirksey as the WILL and Collins as the SAM.
Don't count out Schobert from winning the little used Mike LB. I know he's been outside in his career but I think he could make the transition...kid works hard and has an excellent motor.
I have enough trouble keeping the WILL/MIKE/SAM differences in a 4-3 straight in my head...then we still say WILL & SAM in a 4-2.
The only one I can keep somewhat straight is the MIKE and the need for that MIKE to be a little more physical. But what happens to that physical need in a 4-2?
If the WILL is more a coverage guy and the MIKE more of a thumper...what is the mantra of the SAM?
The SAM has coverage responsibilities with the TE, both will be used heavily in coverage and either can be used to blitz.
I preferred Kirko to cover TE's, but they have him at WILL for now.
I see that too...just with more hesitation as I'm trying to really understand the differences in this regard.
I think Kirksey is a better coverage guy than is Collins (although Collins is supposed to be good there too)...then I see Kirksey as the WILL and Collins as the SAM.
The SAM also has the TE trying to block him vs the run and Collins is a bigger guy, so that could be why they have him there.
My thoughts for base would be: SAM-Collins MIKE-Davis WILL-Kirko
IF Davis is gone then you could shuffled the deck of LBs with Schobert or Alexander added in. Schobert could probably play any of the LBs spots and Alexander could play the WILL:
I tend to agree with the Bronco's scouting report. That and the fact that we already have a WILL I would put my next best LB on my roster on the field and imo that guy is Alexander.
Thanks Versatile, I enjoyed the links because I think Alexander fits niceley in the scheme. Of course all needs to be played out but the potential is there.
I haven't seen many people talking about the possibility of a 5-2 set. With DL being much deeper than the other units I think this may be a possibility. Especially with the switch from 34 some of these front 5 would be familiar with dropping back. It would make for interesting disguises for blitzes. Not saying it would be a base set just another weapon.
With peppers and collins able to cheat up and hide or fake blitzes and 2 or 3 DL woth experience in small zones I think we could create some fast sacks out of this. Albeit risky it is Williams style
I don't see us adding another linemen very often. I see us adding a DB...Peppers is the key, he can float from DB to backer role....teams won't really know how we plan to attack the play.
I'm just saying that it plays to our strength to play more DL until next year. Like I said don't think it'll happen often but it could be our strongest setup
I don't see us adding another linemen very often. I see us adding a DB...Peppers is the key, he can float from DB to backer role....teams won't really know how we plan to attack the play.
I don't see us adding another linemen very often. I see us adding a DB...Peppers is the key, he can float from DB to backer role....teams won't really know how we plan to attack the play.
I think both Peppers and Pryor defend their half of the field.
Peppers can play the rover roll in college and play the field. In the pros, I think that is a mighty task.
The key falls squarely on the front four containment and pressure. They must allow those back four to roam and apply pressure reducing play execution time. They also must prevent any running play between tackles.
This should be a fun defense to watch. If these guys live up to their potential, this will be difficult group to play against. Pressure is coming but from where!
One concern is that Peppers will be the tell... what to know where the pressure is coming form follow him, he will be used as the line of defense to fil those vacated areas.
Not sure if the article above was already posted and discussed.
But if gives a picture into how/what coverages Gregg used last year which sheds some insight for expectations and roles for this defense/secondary....if it hasn't been posted maybe it deserves its own thread?
Not sure if the article above was already posted and discussed.
But if gives a picture into how/what coverages Gregg used last year which sheds some insight for expectations and roles for this defense/secondary....if it hasn't been posted maybe it deserves its own thread?
Ok...so is the article implying that we will primarily run a Cover 2?
I just looked at the draft profiles for every LB on our roster - except for Fleming because I couldn't find one, Orchard, Cam Johnson, Kirksey & Collins. The profile for NONE of those guys reads (even remotely) like the MIKE description as I read/see it. Lots of WILL/SAM type LB prospects...but none with any apparent MIKE potential. The profile for Alexander says nothing interesting about him playing inside (4-3) other than that he lacks strength and instincts to play there...maybe he's gotten stronger.
That leads me to believe that Collins will play the MIKE when we need one (due to his size) and Kirksey will be his backup there (he recently "moved" outside). (Which seems odd on the surface.)
It literally reads as if none of those other guys are candidates for the MIKE. (Note: I'm not saying Kirksey/Collins can or will play the MIKE...I just didn't bother reading their draft profiles because we already know them.)
I don't see us adding another linemen very often. I see us adding a DB...Peppers is the key, he can float from DB to backer role....teams won't really know how we plan to attack the play.
I'll just say I think this team has the bodies to play a 2-5 defense. Saw it in a playoff game by the Pats, vs the Colts, sometime when either Bruschi, or McGinnest was in his last year on the pats. Peyton Manning's, then high powered offense was about shut down for 2 and a half quarters with nary a 1st down in the middle of the game. With almost not a one Dlineman on the field a bunch of big linebackers and extra safeties went 7 across mostly standing before the snap, 2 would end up rushing, but it varied... the 5 would cover the short pass and stopped the run, and the 4 over the top shut down deep passes. The thing is, they couldn't even run against it, I kept thinking, they've got to make em pay with the run, but they couldn't even run against it.
I just said that in the DL thread. Everything I have read is Williams doesn't use a traditional Mike very often.
Yeah...it seems as if he is predisposed to not having the traditional MIKE plus the league overall is in the nickle a high % of the time. It's difficult to justify a roster spot for that traditional MIKE if he's limited to that role ala D Davis.
Ok...so is the article implying that we will primarily run a Cover 2?
That's not what I got from it.....The chart and articles covers a lot of ground but in broad stokes....
The 3 main coverages were:
Cover 3 - 29.37%
Cover 1 - 25.20%
Cover 2 - 24.24%
^^What this tells me is that Gregg used middle of the field deep safety* Cover 3 and Cover 1 over 50% of the time.
This reinforces the need to have a better play from that spot.
The other coverages were just sprinkled in all 5% or less of the time.
I think some of the numbers in the article were off though e.g....
Quote:
The corners played zone 70 percent of the time, and it was a pretty even split of Cover 2 and Cover 3. Those two represent over 76 percent of the entire defensive plays
I'm not sure how they came up with Cover 2 and Cover 3 representing 76% of the defensive plays when Cover 2 was used 24.24% and Cover 3 was used 29.37% of the time *shrugs* or maybe I'm missing something?
* it usually isn't called 'middle of the field deep safety' I just wanted describe the exact position I was talking about without getting mixed up in titles that spot is usually referred to as: single high, center field, middle of field, single post
Ok...so is the article implying that we will primarily run a Cover 2?
That's not what I got from it.....The chart and articles covers a lot of ground but in broad stokes....
The 3 main coverages were:
Cover 3 - 29.37%
Cover 1 - 25.20%
Cover 2 - 24.24%
^^What this tells me is that Gregg used middle of the field deep safety* Cover 3 and Cover 1 over 50% of the time.
This reinforces the need to have a better play from that spot.
The other coverages were just sprinkled in all 5% or less of the time.
I think some of the numbers in the article were off though e.g....
Quote:
The corners played zone 70 percent of the time, and it was a pretty even split of Cover 2 and Cover 3. Those two represent over 76 percent of the entire defensive plays
I'm not sure how they came up with Cover 2 and Cover 3 representing 76% of the defensive plays when Cover 2 was used 24.24% and Cover 3 was used 29.37% of the time *shrugs* or maybe I'm missing something?
* it usually isn't called 'middle of the field deep safety' I just wanted describe the exact position I was talking about without getting mixed up in titles that spot is usually referred to as: single high, center field, middle of field, single post
In regards to the bold above, I too got confused about the chart versus the article. The article includes this:
When the opposing team has two tight ends, or a running back and fullback in the backfield, Cover 3 will be the primary call. Against three or more wideouts, expect Cover 2.
...In regards to the bold above, I too got confused about the chart versus the article. The article includes this:
When the opposing team has two tight ends, or a running back and fullback in the backfield, Cover 3 will be the primary call. Against three or more wideouts, expect Cover 2.
Odd.
So the nickle looks will deploy mostly Cover 2?
Yep, it is odd. I think the author is speculating when it comes to his comment to ~'expect Cover 2 against 3 or more wideouts'.
The reason why I think he's speculating is because the stats from the chart don't tell you about frequency based on nickel or any other parameter. The charts just tells raw % of use.
The only way to really tell what Coverage they use based on situation is to watch film.
I just looked at the draft profiles for every LB on our roster - except for Fleming because I couldn't find one, Orchard, Cam Johnson, Kirksey & Collins. The profile for NONE of those guys reads (even remotely) like the MIKE description as I read/see it. Lots of WILL/SAM type LB prospects...but none with any apparent MIKE potential. The profile for Alexander says nothing interesting about him playing inside (4-3) other than that he lacks strength and instincts to play there...maybe he's gotten stronger.
I agree that Orchard and Cam Johnson don't profile anywhere close to ILB much less MLB. Those guys are edge rushers.
I think Alexander might eventually handle MLB duties with experience/confidence and improvement in stacking and shedding blockers.
You didn't mention Schobert, what did you think of his profile?
FWIW-Heard on CBD that Tank Carder was at MLB during the OTAs. Completely forgot about him when projecting the replacements for DD.
Shobert's profile appeared similar to the rest...nothing to indicate a MIKE skill set. However, I remember during the draft last year seeing highlights of him playing inside at Wisconsin and blitzing from the inside.
I even looked at Carder's draft profile. It's the least flattering of them all...also with no apparent MIKE talent.
Interesting article you posted. It'll take me awhile to digest that.
Things are falling into place for safety Jabrill Peppers in Cleveland.
Or should I say linebacker Jabrill Peppers?
After trading back into the first round of the 2017 draft to select the Michigan star, the Browns traded middle linebacker Demario Davis to the New York Jets for 2014 first-round pick Calvin Pryor. It’s a move that bolsters Cleveland’s depth on the back end, but weak-side linebacker is suddenly a hole.
Or is it?
The Browns reportedly may leave Chris Kirksey at WILL and insert youngster Tank Carder at MIKE. But new Cleveland defensive coordinator Gregg Williams enjoyed considerable success moving Mark Barron from safety to WILL linebacker with the Rams. Deone Bucannon of the Cardinals and Telvin Smith of the Jaguars have thrived as linebackers in the NFL despite a perceived lack of size.
There’s a difference between Barron and Peppers, though.
Peppers already has considerable experience playing the position from his time in Ann Arbor.
This isn't to say Peppers will be playing linebacker for the Browns in 2017.
Another quality article. We did not trade back into the first round for Peppers. It was the tight end. We moved down for Peppers, from the first round to another point in the first round.
Fake news. Alternate facts. Kathy Griffin is still not funny.
The Browns reportedly may leave Chris Kirksey at WILL and insert youngster Tank Carder at MIKE.
Tank is 28 and Kirksey is 24 yet Tank is the youngster? Anyways, never really been impressed with Tank outside ST.
I agree. I wouldn't read too much into the OTAs. Tank is a veteran LB and Hue is showing respect, but Tanks role (ST) probably wont be different from the past.
I'm with you on Carder and I like Shobert. Do you think Orchard can hold up in coverage?
No but he will be pulled on passing downs unless we simply use him as a Pass Rusher and not coverage.
Still if is there in 90 tech and Ogbah in 5/7 tech we could have a great overload on the outside...Collins and Kirksey on the other side. But if Orchard is SAM Collins is the Mike and probably will take coverage on the TE weather Orchard just bumps the TE or goes right for the Pass Rush??? Also Peppers is available for TE coverage. I'd like to see a whole mess of blitz packages. I don't want these QBs to breath. In years past we just had them sitting there with marginal pressure and ask our DBs to cover!
I'm with you on Carder and I like Shobert. Do you think Orchard can hold up in coverage?
No but he will be pulled on passing downs unless we simply use him as a Pass Rusher and not coverage.
Still if is there in 90 tech and Ogbah in 5/7 tech we could have a great overload on the outside...Collins and Kirksey on the other side. But if Orchard is SAM Collins is the Mike and probably will take coverage on the TE weather Orchard just bumps the TE or goes right for the Pass Rush??? Also Peppers is available for TE coverage. I'd like to see a whole mess of blitz packages. I don't want these QBs to breath. In years past we just had them sitting there with marginal pressure and ask our DBs to cover!
jmho
With Orchard at SAM, wouldn't the opposing O figure that he's going to blitz every time...assuming he's had no successful history of dropping into coverage? Do you envision him dropping down outside the DE or blitzing from the back of the box?
I'm just asking to figure out what to envision here.
I like the makeup of this defense just by getting Bryant back and adding Garrett. I am one of the few Nate Orchard fans but man, we have the makeup of a hell of a rotation up front. Competition eliminates entitlement and breeds hunger. They aren't gonna be battling the enemy each week, they are fighting each other for bragging rights and playing time.
Both inside and outside, we are gonna have guys fighting for time.
I absolutely love Kindred and pryor and watching more on Peppers, I have started to appreciate his athleticism. Corners we will see but I think this D could really be something special.
Well at first I'm thinking of Orchard being that 30% LB that would be in on Running downs. In that other 70% that we think are possible passing downs I can see him as a pass rusher.
What I envisioning was the most successful pass rusher we had and that was Jamir Miller in that season we lined him right next to McKinnley??? the DE no secret about it. And with that outside overload kicked butt. Whether its 2 point or 3 point what ever he is comfortable with but it would be outside of Ogbah...we could take a DT out? and over load the outside loop in another LB on the inside just mix it up with Collins and Kirksey one of them pressing the TE.
jmho tried finding a hilight of his 2001 season couldn't find nada!
I agree Vers that our secondary is a concern. Our FO realizes it too because they just picked up 2 guys that should help. We may be able to get more help after TC cuts. It may not be such a concern by our 1st game.
Unless I'm mistaken EO does that mean you think orchard will play 100% of the snaps?
No not at all...when we go to 2 LB he is the odd man out.
Actually I haven't heard him mentioned at all playing LB so far just another DE? This was just me thinking out loud. It could be he gets cut like somebody mentioned.
I just happen to think Orchard is better than most give credit for. Its a shame he was injured last year. And I remember that Miller 2001 season First time we have pass rushing OLB with a pass rushing 4 DL DE. So I covet to see something similar it was our first season ATTACKING...Miller was wasted playing a discipline passive D until that season with FOGE.
Thought I read where Orchard was moving to a hand in the dirt position.
He needs to be. I think we are going with 2 "backers" about 85% of the time. Peppers is going to swing in and out of that role most of the time. A good wat to not tip to the D what alignment you are going to play.
Williams asks his front to rush and rush and rush. You have to keep rotating these pass rushers and Orchard is a good rusher. Orchard, Garrett, nassib, Ogbah are the 4 headliners but we also have Tyrone Holmes and Karter Schult. I believe we keep 5 de's and I really like what I have heard about Schult. 47 tackles for loss in his last 2 seasons is incredible at any level shine game, he looked like he belonged, very surprised he went undrafted.
The Cleveland Browns acquisition of Calvin Pryor has bought up more of a discussion for the team to employ a big nickel defensive look.
When the Cleveland Browns traded linebacker Demario Davis to the New York Jets for safety Calvin Pryor, one of the discussions that immediately came up was using Pryor would be utilized like a linebacker the way Mark Barron was with the Los Angeles Rams when Gregg Williams was there. Pryor, a disappointing former first-round pick from the 2014 class has some similarities to Barron, who the Rams acquired after he was a first-round pick with the Tampa Bay Buccaneers.
Yes, Pryor could be utilized as a linebacker type role with the Browns. It would not be the same role as Barron played with the Rams because Barron played the weakside backer spot for them and the Browns just locked up Christian Kirksey for that spot. Nevertheless, Pryor could be in the mix for a slot position in what is termed a big nickel look.
A traditional nickel defense in the NFL is a 4-2-5 defense with four defensive linemen, two linebackers and five defensive backs; three corners and two safeties. In a big nickel look, the difference is that instead of having three corners, the team uses three safeties and the change is made the nickel spot.
Conceivably, Pryor could be utilized in that type of role. It has a little more size and ability to defend the run, but the tradeoff is a slight loss in speed and agility. The player that may be more attractive in that role and particularly Gregg Williams is first round pick Jabrill Peppers.
Peppers played outside linebacker for the Michigan Wolverines in his junior season, so playing that spot in the NFL wouldn’t be a huge adjustment in terms of where he lines up on the field. His role and his responsibility, however, would change pretty dramatically.
Beyond learning a new set of skills to play that position, the Browns want Peppers to play traditional strong safety. Perhaps in the longterm, the Browns will want Peppers to play a traditional strong safety in any situation where they use two safeties but if they do opt to go to a third, he can slide down to that nickel spot.
The risk with having him do all of that as a rookie is overloading him and thereby reducing his effectiveness overall. If he’s thinking about what he’s doing instead of reacting, it will make him play much slower. It may be more prudent to have Peppers focus on one role and allow him to get comfortable doing that.
That spot would likely be a traditional strong safety because that’s where he’d get the most reps and therefore potentially make the most impact. He didn’t get to showcase it much in college, but Peppers does have excellent rage, so for situations when the Browns want to divide the field in half, Peppers could develop into a nice threat to help over the top and potentially make plays on the ball down the field.
In the event that Peppers is understandably not able to master all of that as a rookie, Pryor may have a shot to land the role of that nickel safety if Williams wants to use that package on a regular basis. Peppers vs. Pryor isn’t the only dynamic that becomes interesting for the defense in this case. It also provides an interesting situation at linebacker and the safety position.
Traditionally, the linebackers align to the strength of the formation based on the players in the box. If there’s a tight end, that becomes the strong side. If not, trip receivers to one side or how backs are lined up in the backfield will determine the call.
The secondary makes their own strength call based on the strength of the receivers. The Browns might run it differently, given the potential complexity of their defense, but this would mean that the six players in the box line up independently to the five defensive backs, which can create a couple different looks.
In this example, the offense is lined up in a basic trey formation out of shotgun. Both the linebackers and safeties are calling the strength on the same side; to the defense’s right. The names aren’t terribly important (a few spots clearly up for grabs), but it just gives an idea of what it could look like, regardless of who is in there. The linebackers align to the strength, so Jamie Collins plays to the stronger side of the formation with Kirksey naturally playing weak side.
Here the nickel currently played by Peppers is also to the right to correspond to the two receivers on that side. So if that nickel safety position is viewed as a hybrid linebacker position in what people think of as the “Barron role”, Peppers becomes the strong side linebacker.
The difference between what he did at Michigan and what he will be likely asked to do for the Browns in the event he performs this role will be substantially different. At Michigan, the reason Peppers was utilized as an outside linebacker was due to an overall lack of team speed in the box. Opponents could simply run wide on the Wolverines and they would get gashed before defenders could corral and tackle the ball carrier.
The way Michigan decided to deal with this problem was to put Peppers to the strong side of the formation, play with outside leverage in an attempt to force opposing ball carriers back inside, back into his teammates in the box. This was extremely effective in defending the run. In the passing game, the concept still worked, but it made Peppers look awful in coverage.
Because Peppers was tasked with making sure nothing went outside of him, he was dropping into short zone and giving opponents a free release to the inside. Naturally, he was a step or couple behind them and was tasked with tackling the pass and trying to reduce the damage as opposed to being aggressive in coverage to make plays on the ball.
The Browns don’t have a speed problem in the box with Kirksey and Collins, not to mention their defensive linemen. So if Peppers is playing in the slot, he will be able to play on the man across from him. Peppers only played man coverage about 10 times his entire junior year for the Wolverines. He might play some zone, blitz and do some other things, but he’ll play significantly more man coverage for Williams, aggressively trying to take away the receiver he’s covering.
The other advantage this package would have with Peppers in that spot is he has safety size with corner speed. That is potentially a significant tactical advantage for the Browns as they would have a more credible run presence that can deal with a tight end if needed while having corner athleticism.
As shown in the first example, if Peppers is up in the slot, someone like Derrick Kindred might have some increased viability for this team. Kindred had a pretty decent rookie year that ended with a mysterious ankle injury during his bye week, but if the Browns like him, this is a way to get him on the field.
There are a lot of choices that have to be made when it comes to running this package. Whether they want the strong and free safety follow traditional rules or if they always want to have the free safety always following the nickel. The reason for that comes down to how they want to deal with motion.
In the NFL with NFL athletes, it may be simple enough to just have the nickel run with the motion man. If not, they could bump the backers over, though that’s not terribly likely. If the nickel doesn’t follow the motion man, the more likely option is to roll the safeties.
In this situation, the safety on the other side of the formation, likely the strong safety, comes down to pick up the slot. The free safety slides to fill the space vacated by the strong safety and the nickel slot then drops back to replace the free safety. That comes down to personnel and preference of the coaching staff.
So, having looked at how the defense might line up when the strength calls are to the same side, here’s a look at when the backers call the strength to one side and the secondary goes the opposite.
Collins is still the guy the first line of defense for runs to the strong side, which is exactly what Williams wants. If Peppers is thought of as a proxy linebacker, he’s now on the weakside. Kirksey becomes the middle linebacker.
So, if the big nickel package becomes a part of the Browns defensive attack, effectively both Collins and Kirksey are the middle backer. The fact that Kirksey is technically the Will in the defense becomes rather unimportant other than to set his starting point. Both of them are focal points of the defense and doesn’t give opponents a good place to go to get away from them.
These are just a couple basic concepts the Browns could use if they run this defensive package. There are any number of other things they could do. Staying with the second diagram, one example would be having the strong safety roll down to play more of an outside linebacker position and the free safety sliding to the middle, giving the Browns a defense that resembles a 4-4 look. They can play Cover-1 or Cover-3 with the free safety playing the deep middle, giving them any number of options in terms in blitz packages and an easy way to bracket tight ends.
In the event the Browns want to focus Peppers on strong safety and not overload him, Pryor might be a good candidate to compete for that slot position. Ibraheim Campbell might also be viable in this role (he’s a better athlete than Pryor). Neither is guaranteed to make the roster.
Regardless of how the Browns would want to play with personnel, the concept remains the same. The Browns are going to run a ton of nickel as that’s simply the state of the NFL. It’s important to note that Jamar Taylor was an effective slot corner last year and that really was his best spot last year, so it’s certainly reasonable for the Browns to have Haden and maybe McCourty on the perimeter at corner with Taylor in the slot and Peppers and another safety over the top.
The big nickel package looks like a viable option if the Browns want to use it, be it a substantial part of their gameplan or simply something they occasionally employ depending on the matchups. In the long run, it gives the Browns different ways to utilize Peppers and hopefully maximize the talents they felt was worth selecting in the first round. Gregg Williams is known for using lot of different defensive packages, so it would hardly be a surprise to see big nickel utilized, but it becomes a question of just how much and if he’s confident in the players they have to run it.
.....The big nickel package looks like a viable option if the Browns want to use it, be it a substantial part of their gameplan or simply something they occasionally employ depending on the matchups. In the long run, it gives the Browns different ways to utilize Peppers and hopefully maximize the talents they felt was worth selecting in the first round. Gregg Williams is known for using lot of different defensive packages, so it would hardly be a surprise to see big nickel utilized, but it becomes a question of just how much and if he’s confident in the players they have to run it.
Great article. Agree with a lot of the opinions in this article and pure football info in it.
A couple thoughts came to my mind....through tips from predator and cfrs and a little research......
I think media is missing the point w/ Gregg Williams defense when they discuss the offseason moves at LB and S.
The Gregg Williams Rams really weren't a 'big nickel' defense. Big nickel is 4-DL 2-LB 5-DBs: 3 Safeties 2 CBs.
BUT Ram's personnel was really 4-DL 1-LB 6-DBs which makes if a DIME not a nickel. The Rams's "3rd" Safety, Mark Barron, was playing in the alignment and assignment of a WILL LB and not a S.
The personnel on this team w/ Collins and Kirko has enough talent to field 2 LB and play a "True" nickel without putting a S at LB.
TLDR: I don't think there is a Mark Barron "role" on this defense with the Browns personnel.
They key figure in the Gregg's secondary was the Nickelback (corner/safety hybrid)---> Lamarcus Joyner not Mark Barron.
I think Calvin Pryor's role on this defense is a back-up Strong Safety that moves ahead of Kindred and Campbell on the depth chart.
I think the NB/Safety the (Joyner 'role') goes to Jamar Taylor OR Brean Boddy Calhoun.
I would start Peppers at SS and sprinkle him as NB when needed and gradually begin the transition to FS.
Nickel Base:
DE: Ogbah
NT: Shelton
3T: Cooper (been getting the reps in OTAs according to CBD) DE: Garrett
Homes.......I like you and you seem like a great guy. So, when I say this..........it is not a personal attack in any way. Okay?
I don't think it looks like a pretty good defense because the secondary absolutely sucks and it's a passing league. I am not insulting you in the slightest. I am just saying that I ain't seeing it.
Now, if I am proven wrong.............I will apologize to you and others.
No offense taken Vers. I'm just hoping all our secondary people take to GW's D and play well. I realize it's a weakness as of now. Hope and wishful thinking! That and a much improved pass rush!!
I hope you're right, Homes. And again.........I think you are a great guy and I get where you are coming from. Nothing malicious in my comments towards you. Just trying to give my thoughts on what I see. I hope I'm wrong. LOL
We had an anemic rush last year, and gave opposing QBs all day to throw. We had only 26 sacks on the season. That is almost unbelievably inept. It's no surprise that we spent 3 draft picks on DL.
Hopefully an improved pass rush will improve our pass defense. It's hard to expect any DB to cover when the opposing QB has no pressure on him.
We did have a poor pass rush, but our secondary gave up a ton of completions on plays that were w/in 2 seconds. It's hard to believe that so many posters can't remember how many wide open receivers were running all over the field last year w/our slow corners trailing in pursuit and our safeties nowhere to be found.
We did have a poor pass rush, but our secondary gave up a ton of completions on plays that were w/in 2 seconds. It's hard to believe that so many posters can't remember how many wide open receivers were running all over the field last year w/our slow corners trailing in pursuit and our safeties nowhere to be found.
Lol, I sure do. I also remember that we were consistently torched by tight ends.
But I recall reading that he was really good as an outside edge rusher. Good all around really. But I recall PFF maybe? saying his outside pass rush productivity was very good.
I know Gregg has rushed his SAM backers on the edge in nickel before....just an idle pre-season wishful thought...but i wonder and would love to see Collins used similar to Khalil Mack. LB in base downs but edge rusher in known passing situations.
Peppers? I see him as a SS, but I really am not that high on him in coverage. I like his versatility and return game, but I think he is a very overrated player in regards to how he is in coverage. I said that long before we drafted him.
We will probably have to use him more as a blitzer, both run and pass and move him around a lot so he can make plays. I think his coverage issues will hurt the secondary.
I figure the choices, right out of the gate, will be either NB or SS.
And I agree that his question mark is his coverage. BUT I don't think coverage is a question mark because he is necessarily 'bad' in coverage. I view his coverage as question mark because of how he was used in college.
I didn't watch a lot of Michigan games. I did watch a couple of his cutups and didn't see him in coverage very often in those tapes. He was usually in some sort of zone coverage where his assignments were dubious.
I read different theories that at Michigan his number one responsibility was outside contain and the his coverage responsibility dictated that he maintain outside leverage and funnel everything inside.
He wasn't in 'man' coverage often and was seldom in deep zone coverage.
BUT his from watching his workouts at the combine, his coverage skills will not be limited by physical ability. He has speed, change of direction ability and is a fluid and explosive athlete. In fact his measurable rival (if not surpass) that of Pepper's proclaimed role model of Earl Thomas.
I hope the staff doesn't overload him with too much. I hope they pick a position that would help the team and teach him in that discipline and allow him to master it. But his skillset is so tempting that they might have him going to special teams meetings, wr/rb meetings, LB meeting, CB meeting and S meetings.
I want him to know he is S and focus on that position and that room.
I believe Peppers should be allowed to focus on SS with the idea of moving him to FS.
Despite your low opinion of his coverage ability I still think day 1 he's a better coverage SS then any of the SS from last year. And IF he reaches mastery of SS I think his skillset will allow him to eventually challenge/surpass Ed Reynolds at Free....but that might take awhile....or might never happen, lol. Who knows. But his physical skillset won't be the factor holding him back like most of the S on the current roster.
Peppers? I see him as a SS, but I really am not that high on him in coverage. I like his versatility and return game, but I think he is a very overrated player in regards to how he is in coverage. I said that long before we drafted him.
We will probably have to use him more as a blitzer, both run and pass and move him around a lot so he can make plays. I think his coverage issues will hurt the secondary.
I could be totally wrong and I hope I am.
Vers, look at this pick from a different pair of glasses. I think this pick seems strange and unorthodox.
I haven't decided if this is a good pick or not. What I do know is Sashi took something of value, draft picks, moved up got Peppers. This is his first major move up. Peppers was targeted. Sashi made his first committed statement on this roster.
Case #2 Brown traded for Pryor a similar player as Peppers. To me, this seems more odd. Why does this trade make sense? You can justify saying we didn't give up much to get. Worst case he plays backup. This is another targeted move. Very few player for player trades happen in the NFL.
Case #3 Brown waived Powell today. Tell me this did not surprise you.
All three moves seem odd. I hear all this moving toward a base 4-2-5 defense. To me, I really question. A base defense is something granite. You have a foundation and can operate any given play. Well, Cleveland has two guys designated to play this position for 16 games. I'm thinking that ain't no base. I also know you don't draft first round guys to run gimmicks.
This is football at a higher level for me. I somewhat understand basics. Are we looking at something new? Doesn't it strike you odd Browns targeting strong safeties when consensus say a free safety is needed?
I don't know maybe I'm over thinking. I find these moves out of the ordinary. Strong safety is not a position you commit to.
Bottom line Sashi is obtaining strong safeties neglecting the free safety. It got me curious!
I'm not quite sure I follow....Cam Johnson is a DE in this defense.
Collins, I agree is not an edge rusher therefore its certainly not his primary role, but he was very productive in pass rush efficiency when he got the opportunity to rush, and for me personally pounded for pound he's one of the best pass rushers on the team.
Holmes is a DE in this defense.
Of the 3 you mentioned only Nassib is considered a DE/edge rusher in this defense and his productivity is that of a JAG.
Bryant and Cooper aren't edge rushers in this defense they're interior DL. ------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By: THROW LONG
Originally Posted By: edromeo
j/c Where would you guys WANT to play Peppers and why?
left or right, the opposite of Collins, at Lb, because I think it would provide better matchups overall.
I'm trying to get a picture of what you mean before I respond.
Correct me if I'm wrong but you want Peppers to play Weakside linebacker in base 43?
Maybe if I ask a more specific question....
Where would you want Peppers to play in base 43 (30% of the time) and in Sub-Package defenses Nickel/Dime (70% defenses).
Didn't know exactly what to quote, but wanted to quote something so you would know which of your posts I was responding to.
I haven't extensively studied Peppers. I'm not an expert on him. I just watched his games on TV and was always disappointed by him in coverage. Loved his return ability and athleticism, but he looked to be a slow decision maker in zone coverage and he got beat on crossing routes.
I'm not drawing a line in the sand or anything. I could be dead wrong about him and he'll be a great cover guy. We'll see.
We did have a poor pass rush, but our secondary gave up a ton of completions on plays that were w/in 2 seconds. It's hard to believe that so many posters can't remember how many wide open receivers were running all over the field last year w/our slow corners trailing in pursuit and our safeties nowhere to be found.
I agree. That reminds me of something Williams said, maybe in his opening press conference. He said something about our DBs can't let the ball get over their head in a "hurry". They are all going to get beat, but they can't allow that to happen in a hurry.
I think part of the problem our DBs had is they were a little too worried about run support.
Let the line and backers worry about stopping the run. The DBs first mission is to mirror whoever they are covering. Just stick close to your guy for the first 3 seconds of a play. Then, if your receiver starts blocking you, then worry about the run. I'd rather the DB's make tackles 30 yards down the field then allow wide open receivers 30 yards down the field. At least make the QB make a good throw and the receiver make a good catch. No harm in that. Doing a good job as a cover guy doesn't mean the other team isn't going to make plays.
Just cover your guy. Blame Myles Garrett and Collins if backs are running wild, deep in to the secondary.
Peppers? I see him as a SS, but I really am not that high on him in coverage. I like his versatility and return game, but I think he is a very overrated player in regards to how he is in coverage. I said that long before we drafted him.
We will probably have to use him more as a blitzer, both run and pass and move him around a lot so he can make plays. I think his coverage issues will hurt the secondary.
I could be totally wrong and I hope I am.
Vers, look at this pick from a different pair of glasses. I think this pick seems strange and unorthodox.
I haven't decided if this is a good pick or not. What I do know is Sashi took something of value, draft picks, moved up got Peppers. This is his first major move up. Peppers was targeted. Sashi made his first committed statement on this roster.
Case #2 Brown traded for Pryor a similar player as Peppers. To me, this seems more odd. Why does this trade make sense? You can justify saying we didn't give up much to get. Worst case he plays backup. This is another targeted move. Very few player for player trades happen in the NFL.
Case #3 Brown waived Powell today. Tell me this did not surprise you.
All three moves seem odd. I hear all this moving toward a base 4-2-5 defense. To me, I really question. A base defense is something granite. You have a foundation and can operate any given play. Well, Cleveland has two guys designated to play this position for 16 games. I'm thinking that ain't no base. I also know you don't draft first round guys to run gimmicks.
This is football at a higher level for me. I somewhat understand basics. Are we looking at something new? Doesn't it strike you odd Browns targeting strong safeties when consensus say a free safety is needed?
I don't know maybe I'm over thinking. I find these moves out of the ordinary. Strong safety is not a position you commit to.
Bottom line Sashi is obtaining strong safeties neglecting the free safety. It got me curious!
Hey bugs....I'm not understanding what your saying, for example:Correct me if I'm wrong, but we didn't trade up for Peppers, we traded down and he was there and we took him. Then we traded up to take nujokokummmm
Another thing:We needed safety help and the Jets were going to let him go anyway and Davis more than likely wasn't going to make the cut. Not sure what your saying with this one.
Logical post. I just don't think our corners are very good. They are slow. And it was really tough when we were playing Kindred and IC at the two safety spots. Both are horrid in coverage.
Vers, look at this pick from a different pair of glasses. I think this pick seems strange and unorthodox.
I haven't decided if this is a good pick or not. What I do know is Sashi took something of value, draft picks, moved up got Peppers. This is his first major move up. Peppers was targeted. Sashi made his first committed statement on this roster.
I know this was directed to Vers but here my thoughts......
Without speculating you can't say what lead to the pick other then the targeted player represented significant value to them based on their pre-draft boards.
Quote:
Case #2 Brown traded for Pryor a similar player as Peppers. To me, this seems more odd. Why does this trade make sense?
Similar in what sense? Athletically Peppers is on a whole other level then Pryor. No comparison. They played different roles in college. Pryor was a Free safety that moved to Strong. Peppers was a general DB that moved to LB. Pepper's role in the NFL is yet undecided.
Quote:
Case #3 Brown waived Powell today. Tell me this did not surprise you.
Powell is an UDFA that hasn't played a snap of NFL Safety. He was a camp fodder longshot. I actually like Powell as a prospect but this move isn't 'significant' in terms of team building.
Quote:
All three moves seem odd. I hear all this moving toward a base 4-2-5 defense. To me, I really question.[quote]Its not really a question. ALL defenses in the NFL play more 4-2-5 then any other defense. Its the way of the NFL. Roughly ~60-80% of NFL defense snaps are played in Nickel/4-2-5 or a non-43/43 base defense subpackage.
[quote] A base defense is something granite. You have a foundation and can operate any given play. Well, Cleveland has two guys designated to play this position for 16 games. I'm thinking that ain't no base. I also know you don't draft first round guys to run gimmicks.
I'm not sure what you mean here *shrugs*? Which 2 guys are designated to play the same position and what position are you referring to?
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This is football at a higher level for me. I somewhat understand basics. Are we looking at something new?
Something new defensively? Based on....? I'm not really sure what you are saying...but the personnel on this defense isn't anything new.
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Doesn't it strike you odd Browns targeting strong safeties when consensus say a free safety is needed?
It depends on what you mean by targeting SS. The draft is the draft, its teams play it as it comes...its hard to target a specific position.
In FA, yeah I think the team could/should look at some of the available FA FS.
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I find these moves out of the ordinary. Strong safety is not a position you commit to.
I'm not sure what you think is out of the ordinary and I don't see how they're "committing" to SS.
Also Bugs Said:Case #2 Brown traded for Pryor a similar player as Peppers. To me, this seems more odd. Why does this trade make sense? You can justify saying we didn't give up much to get. Worst case he plays backup. This is another targeted move. Very few player for player trades happen in the NFL.
Now I will be the first to admit I don't know jack squat about Football, but it seems to me that Peppers is a different kind of S than Pryor. I think they want to move him all around where as Pryor would pretty much play the same position. Anyway thats my take in it.
You bring up some very interesting questions bugs.
Even after the Draft we were a little thin in the secondary. We've since addressed that but as you've pointed out it seems we have a weird concentration of SS.
I don't follow FA across the league, but have there been any FS available that are worth going after to begin with?
The other wild card is Ed Reynolds. I know not many people are very high on the guy because he doesn't appear to have any superstar potential. But I think I mentioned in another post recently that he may be a Jim Leonard kind of guy for us: maybe not the most athletically gifted, but solid at his position AND extremely intelligent. IIRC Pettine had a lot of praise for him, saying that he was extremely good at getting the other defenders in position.
Is Reynolds that kind of guy? He's touted as being very smart. And while the safeties weren't a shining star for us last season, I don't think anyone can really deny that they looked better once we put him out there. Individually he seems to be technically sound.
How valuable is a guy like that in a complicated defense?
As to why the concentration of SS's? As I mentioned, they are touted as being "athletic". If they truly are then IMO they can be taught to be at least proficient in coverage. They don't have to become lock down guys, but there's no reason that they should be an easily exploited liability.
Logical post. I just don't think our corners are very good. They are slow. And it was really tough when we were playing Kindred and IC at the two safety spots. Both are horrid in coverage.
Hopefully, all the new guys will be a big help.
Maybe so. All the more reason they can't be peeking in the backfield. Also, if they are that slow, maybe we don't play as much press? I know that might be desired, but if that is where we are getting beat, then maybe give our corners a 2-4 step cushion. Receivers are generally going to get in to their route as soon as possible.
I am not saying giving 10 step where the receivers and QBs won't just curl route you to death which then opens the stop and go route later in the game.
Our DBs aren't getting beat by 20 yards because they are that slow. In a race over 40 yards, our DBs aren't going to finish 10 yards behind people. maybe a few steps.
I think we were losing them because we were looking run. I am not sure if that was a function of Rays D where he wanted them looking, or just bad habit.
I think Williams has made it clear that mission #1 is to stick close to your guy. At least I hope it is. IMO the only way to do that for most is to keep your eyes on your guy, not looking in to the backfield at some play action fake. By that time your receiver is 4 yards past you in a dead run while you are sitting flat footed. No amout of speed is going to get you back in to that play. You are just chasing and hoping the QB misses the pass or the receiver drops the ball..
Hey bugs....I'm not understanding what your saying, for example:Correct me if I'm wrong, but we didn't trade up for Peppers, we traded down and he was there and we took him. Then we traded up to take nujokokummmm
Another thing:We needed safety help and the Jets were going to let him go anyway and Davis more than likely wasn't going to make the cut. Not sure what your saying with this one.
Good post dude, I would like to hear from you.
You are right! Blush, my mistake. Thank goodness it didn't wreck my entire point! Thanks for pointing that out.
We needed safety help. I agree. I simply not understanding our seeking of strong safeties. Are we capitalizing on availability? I know safeties are a bit scarce.
I've always been partial to building a solid front seven on defense. Surrendering a LB for Safety seems, for a lack of a better word, odd. Safeties are important simply not a root or base. I've always felt having a super star safety is a luxury. Sashi is stock piling.
Ed, what I am driving at is Sashi is focusing most of his energy toward a specific DB, strong safety. This draft was noted having quality corners. Sashi drafted one and took one in UDFA. Powell looked as a possible free safety. Waving before training camp started in a position of need is puzzling.
The only thing I can think Browns could be leaning toward is Cover-3. That seems a bit of head scratch since it isolates the corners to outside. It does fit well not letting anything over your head. I thought speed was key playing cover-3.
My football knowledge is simply ok. The theory and innovated aspect is where I fall short. In the case I described, I simply found odd the attention to strong safety. In a game that has move toward quickness, it seems Sashi is leaning toward strength.
Hey bugs....I'm not understanding what your saying, for example:Correct me if I'm wrong, but we didn't trade up for Peppers, we traded down and he was there and we took him. Then we traded up to take nujokokummmm
Another thing:We needed safety help and the Jets were going to let him go anyway and Davis more than likely wasn't going to make the cut. Not sure what your saying with this one.
Good post dude, I would like to hear from you.
You are right! Blush, my mistake. Thank goodness it didn't wreck my entire point! Thanks for pointing that out.
We needed safety help. I agree. I simply not understanding our seeking of strong safeties. Are we capitalizing on availability? I know safeties are a bit scarce.
I've always been partial to building a solid front seven on defense. Surrendering a LB for Safety seems, for a lack of a better word, odd. Safeties are important simply not a root or base. I've always felt having a super star safety is a luxury. Sashi is stock piling.
Like you said... Sashi is stockpiling. Maybe he's found a new area he projects to have leverage at when dealing with other teams?
Ed, what I am driving at is Sashi is focusing most of his energy toward a specific DB, strong safety. This draft was noted having quality corners. Sashi drafted one and took one in UDFA. Powell looked as a possible free safety. Waving before training camp started in a position of need is puzzling.
I get what you're driving at...I just don't agree with your rationale or how you arrive at your thought.
I do not think Sashi is 'targeting' SS.
However; I think the way you interpret the events leads you to perceive it that way.
The draft isn't a pick and choose situation. The draft is not free agency. Teams try to avoid reaching for need i.e. FS and rather draft the best player available on their respective draft boards.
So when you sight the draft as an example of Sashi 'targeting' SS I don't agree.
I don't think the release of Powell is an example of targeting SS either. Powell was an UDFA player that has not played a single snap of NFL Free Safety. He was a longshot camp guy and not some that has any significant impact on team building plans.
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The only thing I can think Browns could be leaning toward is Cover-3. That seems a bit of head scratch since it isolates the corners to outside. It does fit well not letting anything over your head. I thought speed was key playing cover-3.
You should look back in this thread. There's some good information posted and some good conversation on some of the exact areas you are wondering/speculating about. For example you don't have to speculate about whether or not Gregg has used Cover-3 in the past because in this very thread his usage numbers for Cover-3 are posted.
Also, I can't think of any other way to say it then your view of Cover-3 isn't in keeping with traditional views of Cover-3.
Using the picture from and piggybacking on the information from that outstanding article here's my thoughts...I think the D they will use most often is true Nickel with the following personnel:
LCB- I'm assuming here that Haden is 100% healthy IF not then I wouldn't have any issue pluggin in Boddy at LCB.
3T- I heard on CBD that Cooper has been taking all the reps w/ the 1st team defense at 3-tech.
NB- Jamar. He played a lot from the slot last year and graded out well there.
SS- I have Peppers at SS because I think its a spot where he can come in and immediately upgrade from last season AND it's a realitively easy spot to learn AND it allows him a taste of deep coverage without being given all the responsibility of the FS.
FS- Ed Reynolds. It seem like everybody loves to hate him. But he's the only on the roster with any experience.
'BIG' Nickel: Replaces NB w/ a Safety
Moves Peppers to NB and puts Pryor on the field at SS. I don't like this package much for the Browns personnel. Jamar Taylor would be replaced by Peppers....what is lost in coverage is made up for in Tackling/run stopping BUT it would replace Peppers with Pryor and that is a huge drop in speed, range and coverage ability.
'BIG' Dime: Gregg did a lot of 'BIG' Dime w/ Rams with Barron at WILL. But I don't think fits the Browns well because it would remove Kirko or Collins from the field and replace them w/ Pryor.
Here's an interesting concept ed. As it stands now it's seems unlikely well deviate from 4 down lineman or 2 lbers. The group is just too strong to go with less of them and more dbs as our roster sits.
The combo we've all been speculating is the dbs, in both alignment and usage. I think we agree as enticing as a big Nickle is for peppers alignment it wouldn't be most ideal because safety is arguably our weakest. Bringing in pryor/kindred for Taylor or Calhoun doesn't really inspire wows.
So that brings me here. Greg's usage is almost entirely single high(cover1&3) and cover 2. Picture I hybrid dime cb/Nickle lb/single high s look. It fits our personnel while also aligning peppers to make impact and allowing us to play with the offense with some exotic looks.
I don't think playing peppers up makes it impossible to drop into a cover 2(heck you could even drop a cb instead of ss into deep 1/2 and keep peppers shallow for run support) and certainly doesn't effect cover 1 or 3. This would allow us to play the lbers strength call differently with peppers as the NS or defacto will while still having a man alignment on the wrs so we don't have to give away our coverage.
Heck the nb could even shadow a slot in motion and just flop with peppers. Normally that would give away zone because it's too difficult to slide lbers zones at the last second but if all you do is flop 2 men it's much easier to hide. Thoughts? I wish I could edit that graphic but it would essentially look like a dime with peppers playing off ball opposite the wr strength, 2lbers and only 1 safety back. I like the name monster dime personally.
A back to top form Bryant and Shelton on the interior would be pretty damn solid. Ogbah, Shelton, Bryant and Garret has a lot of potential if it clicks for/with GW defense.
A back to top form Bryant and Shelton on the interior would be pretty damn solid. Ogbah, Shelton, Bryant and Garret has a lot of potential if it clicks for/with GW defense.
I think that combination should click with any 4 man front scheme. The potential is just... whew. Whew...
A back to top form Bryant and Shelton on the interior would be pretty damn solid. Ogbah, Shelton, Bryant and Garret has a lot of potential if it clicks for/with GW defense.
IMO ... that is our best DL combination, with Nassib and the rookies DT sprinkled in.
Below is Cover 1/3 look w/ the personnel as I see it, although it may not be exactly what you were talking about? Agreed on the usage, someone posted the numbers thus: The 3 main coverages were:
Cover 3 - 29.37%
Cover 1 - 25.20%
Cover 2 - 24.24%
Originally Posted By: predator16
So that brings me here. Greg's usage is almost entirely single high(cover1&3) and cover 2. Picture I hybrid dime cb/Nickle lb/single high s look. It fits our personnel while also aligning peppers to make impact and allowing us to play with the offense with some exotic looks.
Damn internet makes it harder then it should be to have these convos but i love this type of discussion...
I wasn't sure if you meant the above as the main or a sub package.......dime sub package vs 4 wide? Similar to Greggs big dime w/ Barron as the nickel WILL w/ Boddy as the dimeback and Pryor as the WILL?
If you label how you want the personnel distributed i can create gif to match....
Agree completely that Peppers offers a lot of versatility. Like you and Peter Smith (from the article) mention the reaction to motion is the key to the disguise coverages and Peppers is the key to that. 3 defenders are the key to versatile defense...FS,SS and NB.
A lot of versatility could be created if the nickelback, SS and FS can all hit, play deep zone and cover in man. But right now the defense isn't there yet.... Ed can tackle and prevent the ball from going over his head in a hurry but he's didn't grade out well in coverage nor make any plays.
Peppers can certainly tackle BUT whether or not he can cover in man or zone is a question mark...his skillset suggests he should/could/might
Jamar can cover but deep zone is a question mark and he didn't grade out well in tackling......
I'm rambling now but my point is that the nickel defense does provide the ability to disguise coverages with Peppers but whether or not they can execute those coverages.....i guess we'll find out
with all the Defensive talk, the 4-3 .. the nickle.. the dime.. 3-4.. I thought this atricle might get a chuckle ...
Detmer: Favre didn’t know what a nickel defense was
The Big Lead Tully Corcoran 3 days ago
This week, it came to our attention that early in his career, Hall of Fame quarterback Brett Favre had to ask Ty Detmer was at nickel defense was. Initially I assumed Favre was joking, that he was recounting a time he pretended not to know a basic football thing as a way of playing a practical joke on a teammate, But I just couldn't tell, and I had to know. So who better to ask than Ty Detmer, now the offensive coordinator at BYU? Thursday afternoon Detmer called me back, so I told him the same thing I just told you.
"He didn't know," Detmer said. "He was sincere in asking." Detmer said this happened his second year in the NFL, which was 1993. This matches what Favre said. I asked Detmer if he could tell right away Favre was serious. (In case you don't know, a nickel defense is one in which a linebacker has been replaced by a defensive back). "I could tell," he said. "Because it was during a serious part of the meeting. This wasn't jacking around in the locker room, and throwing it out there. I did kinda question it, you know, 'Are you serious?' You could tell he was, I just figured I'd better double-check it." Detmer said he's never otherwise encountered a person who was that good at football, yet was so unaware of some of its basic mechanics. "It was the first time I'd been around anybody that just kind of winged it," Detmer said. "You could tell the first year he got to play, first year in Green Bay, Don Majkowski was the starter and (Favre) goes in, and he wasn't great at remembering the formations. Back then we didn't have the coach-and-quarterback helmet. We had to memorize all the formations, and we would signal in the play. You had to know the formation for that play that week, and they changed it every week. You knew he didn't really have a great grasp on the formations and didn't really study them as hard as they needed to be studied to be able to call them every week. He was a genuine guy that loved playing the game, but didn't really put a ton of time into it." It was in stark contrast to another Hall of Famer Detmer played with, Steve Young. "I played with Steve Young later, and he was the total opposite," Detmer said. 'He knew every play, every formation, every protection, everything. Just two opposites, but highly successful in how they played the game. It was kinda fun to see the difference." As for an explanation of how somebody could make it from Pee Wee football to the NFL without knowing something so elementary, Detmer figures it just somehow slipped through the cracks because it never made much difference. "I knew his dad was a coach and all those things, so you just kind of figure," Detmer said. "It was probably one of those things you hear all the time, but you never heard anybody explain it, you know? I tell people all the time, 'Sometimes ignorance is bliss.' Like he says in the story, 'Who cares about that?' He's right. It's the same position, it's just a smaller, faster guy, so does it really matter?"
Below is Cover 1/3 look w/ the personnel as I see it, although it may not be exactly what you were talking about?
That's exactly the personel and alignment I was trying to explain. Well done! I think we could even run a cover 2 out of this and it really allows us to mask some of our weakness like deep middle. I envision one of peppers or the nb dropping to a deep 1/2 just before the snap. I think it could help that fs spot and allow us some exotic blitzes
Below is Cover 1/3 look w/ the personnel as I see it, although it may not be exactly what you were talking about?
That's exactly the personel and alignment I was trying to explain. Well done! I think we could even run a cover 2 out of this and it really allows us to mask some of our weakness like deep middle. I envision one of peppers or the nb dropping to a deep 1/2 just before the snap. I think it could help that fs spot and allow us some exotic blitzes
It could work, but the QB's in our division are not afraid to go deep. Dalton, Ben, and Flacco would light up the deep safety with pump fakes and look offs. You need a premiere FS you can count on. We don't have that.
...That's exactly the personel and alignment I was trying to explain. Well done! I think we could even run a cover 2 out of this and it really allows us to mask some of our weakness like deep middle. I envision one of peppers or the nb dropping to a deep 1/2 just before the snap. I think it could help that fs spot and allow us some exotic blitzes
Agreed. The beauty of having versatile personnel is the ability to keep disguise and varying the looks a Def can give an offense. There's a chance that the personnel this team can show one look pre-snap and rotate. Show Cover 3 but play Off Man or like you said pre-snap show a Cover 1/3 look and rotate into Cover 2.
I am enjoying the exchange here, but I have to address one comment. I am not getting on your case, but I feel the need to make sure other posters understand something.
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There's a chance that the personnel this team can show one look pre-snap and rotate. Show Cover 3 but play Off Man or like you said pre-snap show a Cover 1/3 look and rotate into Cover 2.
Every team in the league disguises coverage and have done so for years. They show one look pre-snap and then shift into another coverage late. That is one of the huge problems that many QBs face. They can make the pre-snap read, but struggle when teams change their coverage.
Oh, and one more thing.............I believe that it is actually more common for a team to show a Cover 2 look and then switch out of that.
Athletic Jamie Collins begging Gregg Williams to let him play free safety and shows off arm in skills competition
BEREA, Ohio -- Gregg Williams wasn't surprised Thursday when his star linebacker Jamie Collins was the only player in a fun skills competition at the end of the minicamp Thursday to fire the ball into one of three small pockets in a quarterback net at the goal-line from 20 yards out.
Former high school quarterback Ricardo Louis threw a nice, tight spiral, but didn't get it in. Receiver Jordan Payton's attempt fell short. Joe Haden, another former high school quarterback, came close, but no pocket. Linebacker Chris Kirksey struck the top of the apparatus and some of the running backs couldn't hit the ocean from the beach.
But Collins? He lasered it into the pocket like he practices it at night with his eyes closed.
"No, I wasn't surprised,'' said the Browns' defensive coordinator. "You all don't get the chance to see how really good he is at a lot of things. He's going to be mad because I'm telling you this ... but he's very intelligent. He's not going to talk to you because every day is a (challenge) with trust. (But) he was a high school quarterback and really would have liked to have played quarterback in college.''
Collins led his Franklin County High School team in Mississippi to the Class 3A State Championship in his first year at quarterback. As a senior, he led his team back to the championship game again. So if Jackson needs someone to step in and take a Wildcat snap every once in a while, Collins can get in line with the rest of the wannabe quarterbacks.
"He's begging me to play free safety, and I'm not saying he couldn't be the best one out there right now,'' said Williams. "If he wants to play defensive end, he could play defensive end. There are a lot of things about his versatility that it's going to be fun and challenging to find spots to cut him loose and let him go."
In OTAs and minicamp, Collins ran around like a kid still playing for the Franklin County Bulldogs. He swatted down passes, got a pick-six off DeShone Kizer, made numerous "tackles'' on the non-contact practice and a few would-be sacks.
The player who came in last year after the trade from New England and mostly put his head down and went to work, is now often seen throwing it back and laughing.
Enjoying the family atmosphere with new friends such as Kirksey, Collins is rejuvenated and poised for a big season. He's also laughing all the way to the bank with his four-year, $50 million contract, including $26 million guaranteed.
"I can't shut him up now,'' said Williams. "He's in the meeting and he acts and he talks ... and he loves the banter of competition. Everybody in the building is shocked about that. I'm not."
• Williams said Peppers and Calvin Pryor, acquired in a June 1 trade with the New York Jets, will play similar roles and could appear on the field at the same time because he features three safeties in some packages.
• Defensive backs coach DeWayne Walker said he thinks cornerback is the best position for free-agent acquisition Jason McCourty and all of his work with the Browns has been at corner so far. Williams said McCourty can play cornerback and free safety. “Not only can he do that, he’s a sharp dude and he has good leadership in his heart,” Williams said. “So he fits in.”
• Linebackers coach Blake Williams, Gregg’s son, said Tank Carder could start at middle linebacker. Carder has started just two games in his five NFL seasons, but he has practiced with the first-team defense since the Browns traded Demario Davis for Calvin Pryor. “We are comfortable with that. It is a competition. Nothing is by any means set.” The other candidates are Joe Schobert and Dominique Alexander.
{me...Also heard on CBD that Joe Schobert has been taking some snaps at MLB)
3. Collins everywhere: On that note, Williams pointed out that everybody on his defense is required to play two positions as a means of the coaches patching up injury situations on the run. This led to a discussion about the wondrous athletic talents of 6-3, 250-pound linebacker Jamie Collins, who is the most reticent interview on the team. “He’s gonna be mad about me telling you this,” Williams said. “He is very intelligent. He was a high school quarterback and would have liked to play quarterback in college. He’s begging me to play free safety, and I’m not saying he couldn’t be the best one out there right now. He could play defensive end. There’s lots of things about his versatility that … it’s gonna be fun and challenging to find spots to cut him loose and let him go.”
^^^would love to see him get a good opportunity to rush the passer
I am enjoying the exchange here, but I have to address one comment. I am not getting on your case, but I feel the need to make sure other posters understand something.
Quote:
There's a chance that the personnel this team can show one look pre-snap and rotate. Show Cover 3 but play Off Man or like you said pre-snap show a Cover 1/3 look and rotate into Cover 2.
Every team in the league disguises coverage and have done so for years. They show one look pre-snap and then shift into another coverage late. That is one of the huge problems that many QBs face. They can make the pre-snap read, but struggle when teams change their coverage.
No worries.
Just to be clear....I'm not/wasn't saying that disguising coverages would be unique to Gregg/Browns.
…in my discussions w/ pred I was saying that IF IF Peppers can effectively play some deep middle 1/3 Safety in Cover 1/3 looks and can effectively play half field Cover 2 or quarter zone in Cover 4 then it would allow Gregg the opportunity to effectively disguise and play different coverages without having to tip his hand by substitution. Peppers’ ability to effectively (and hopefully exceptionally) play different roles/techniques can really make the disguised and switched coverages work.
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Oh, and one more thing.............I believe that it is actually more common for a team to show a Cover 2 look and then switch out of that.
I’m not sure about which rotation happens more often…it wasn’t a point really…but in relation to this defense and this convo....speculating the frequency/tendency for which a defense rotates to Cover 2 from Cover 1/3 OR from Cover 1/3 to Cover 2 probably depends on which is the primary coverage. The intent is to trick the QB and create hesitation and indecision. If Cover 1/Cover 3 is the defenses primary look (like it was with Gregg w/ Rams) then they would probably rotate out of a shown (and expected) Cover 1/Cover into a Cover 2/Cover 6 (or different look) after they rotate.
e.g watching Seattle they show Cover 1/3 the most and rotate from those looks into a Cover 2. But certainly defenses do rotate the from Cover 2 to Cover 1/3 as well…and like you say maybe even more often
Below is Cover 1/3 look w/ the personnel as I see it, although it may not be exactly what you were talking about? ...
It could work, but the QB's in our division are not afraid to go deep. Dalton, Ben, and Flacco would light up the deep safety with pump fakes and look offs. You need a premiere FS you can count on. We don't have that.
I am not exactly sure what you mean in your above post...IF you're saying that Cover 1/3 can't be used because we lack a 'premiere' FS then I would disagree....but pushing the convo forward based on your post....The way I read your post is expressing concern over whether or not the base nickel Cover 1/Cover 3 personnel can handle being attacked deep...especially with pump fakes and look offs.
You also express a desire for a 'premiere' FS....
I'm not how much more susceptible Cover 1/3 defenses are to pump fakes or look offs.
And straight out the gate I would agree that every defense would benefit from top level FS play.
But while pro-bowl level FS play would be awesome...i think you can still effectively play Cover 1/Cover 3 without top level FS play.
At a minimum from what I've read (and to steal from Pete Carrol) the Cover 1/3 FS has to be able to play the seam and the post in coverage. Remember Cover 3 as the name suggest is a 3 deep coverage...consequently its actually not as susceptible to the deep ball on the sideline because the CBs are play deep as the deepest.
The "minimum" (so to speak) is to not get beat deep (or a Gregg says don't let the ball get over your head in a hurry). And while Reynolds isn't a star at FS he certainly brought stability and was able to prevent the ball from getting over his head in hurry...which was something Kindred and Campbell couldn't.
I think it a bit soon to write off Reynolds just yet. This is just his 3rd season. I think he still has room to grow. He has the physical skills, and went to Stanford, so he is at least fairly smart.
If he is going to make a jump towards cream of the crop type player, this is the year.
Kruse referred to Peppers as one of the “best overall football players” in this year’s draft class in the context of his ability to play a variety of positions, something he did to the extreme at Michigan. His mixed use won’t be on that same level with the Browns -- he’s a strong safety first and foremost -- but his first couple of months with the team provided coaches at multiple spots with optimism about the kind of impact he can make in their respective areas.
“If it involves a ball in everything he's done growing up in his life, he's been good at it,” Kruse said. “You name it from rugby to soccer to baseball to football to basketball. The kid's excelled at everything he's ever done. He just has naturally instinctive ability to understand space and movement.”
Peppers worked at strong safety with the second- and third-team defense throughout OTAs and minicamp and has hopes of elevating to the first group when the team returns for training camp. None of the Browns’ 10 draft picks landed first-team spots from the onset of OTAs, as Browns coach Hue Jackson stressed that every member of the class would have to earn his respective spot.
Kruse said Peppers flashed plenty of what he showed on tape during his time at Michigan, where he starred on both sides of the ball and logged extensive snaps at both linebacker and safety. The next couple of months will be vital for both Peppers and defensive coordinator Gregg Williams, as Peppers shows just how much he can help Cleveland as a rookie while Williams devises schemes that gets the most out of his unique ability.
“When you talk about being a third-level and second-level and first-level defender, he has those inherent traits,” Kruse said. “The kid played seven to eight sports growing up. The spatial awareness he just naturally has from doing a lot of different things growing up attributes to those things he can do at all different levels.
“Gregg will have a great plan for him as we go into the season and as he continues to grow into the scheme. He can do a lot of things.”
GC. When looking at the Db's I've started doing something new this year. It's to not look at anything else except the number of passes defensed vs the number of Solo tackles.
I know this jumps to an assumption about solo tackles, but I'll accept that. I assume most db's making solo tackles are, 1. either watching a receiver make a catch and walking him out of bounds, or 2. tackling a receiver after they make a catch.
Therefore if a Db has 100 solo tackles for every one pass defensed, he's letting everbody catch everything. But it he only has 4-7 solo tackles for every one pass defensed, he's keeping some receivers from making catches.
That would make it real obvious who can cover and who isn't doing it yet. If it's looking at the DB's
Rejoice, Cleveland Browns fans. A day might soon come when your team is no longer the perennial punch line of the NFL—at least not defensively.
Browns head coach Hue Jackson is handing over the watering hose to recently hired defensive coordinator Gregg Williams in hopes that he can finally put out the dumpster fire on defense. It’s a fire that has been burning for well over two decades, and it’ll take every bit of Williams’ defensive genius to extinguish it.
The herculean effort to change the defensive culture in Cleveland starts with the guys up front. The new-look front seven is full of baby faces—players with under four years of NFL experience. The group lacks household names but is loaded with the potential to rewrite the narrative in Cleveland.
No one will be laughing by the end of next season.
That’s not to say the Browns will become a playoff team overnight. There is still plenty of work to be done to build a playoff contender, particularly on offense, but fans in Cleveland can rest assured that the foundation is being laid.
Myles Garrett, the No. 1 draft pick in 2017, figures to play a pivotal role in Williams’ defense. The 6-foot-4, 272-pound defensive end out of Texas A&M was the ultimate disruptor on the defensive line in college. When he wasn’t blowing up plays in the backfield, he was feasting on sack lunches and opposing college quarterbacks. He also comes with a stern confidence and an attitude that tends to rub off on teammates.
The fretful Browns of the past are dead and gone with Garrett on the roster.
“They picked me because they think they see something in me, and they know that I can help them rebuild and turn this program around,” Garrett told ESPN’s Pat McManamon. “That’s the mindset that we have to have. Starting next year, we can put the pieces together, not only the players but with a mindset that we can actually do this. I know that the players there have that same mindset. I am going to keep that feeling contagious. I’m just prepared for that.”
Change is coming to Cleveland, and Garrett won’t be alone in his pursuit of it.
Former New England Patriots linebacker Jamie Collins, who was surprisingly dealt in a trade to the Browns in the middle of the 2016 season, will be there every step of the way, setting the physical tone in the heart of the defense while providing experience and leadership. The former second-team All-Pro linebacker knows a thing or two about competing on the big stage after helping the Patriots defeat the Seattle Seahawks in Super Bowl XLIX.
Then there’s Emmanuel Ogbah, Cleveland’s best-kept secret at defensive end. His rookie season didn’t go according to plan due to the musical chairs act he was forced to play between defensive end and outside linebacker. Then Collins arrived and things suddenly got better. Ogbah’s best work came when he dropped the hybrid linebacker act and settled in at defensive end. That growth will continue in his sophomore season.
The 2015 No. 12 pick, nose tackle Danny Shelton, should also take a step forward in 2017 now that he is finally healthy. His production started to nosedive last year after he injured his wrist. The Browns should also expect to see more out of second-year defensive end Carl Nassib and fourth-year linebacker Christian Kirksey. They’ll both have to be much better than they were last season if the Browns have any hope of righting a perennially wayward ship.
The Browns were the doormat team in the NFL a season ago, giving up an average of 142.7 rushing yards a game. Only the San Francisco 49ers were worse at stopping the run. That’s not going to cut it if the Browns have any hope of competing in the AFC North.
There has been no shelter from an unending storm for Browns fans, unlike the other professional sports franchises in the Cleveland area.
LeBron James threw on the red cape, swooped in, and saved the Cavaliers from a moribund existence when he returned to the NBA team three years ago. Francisco Lindor’s breakout MLB season helped the Indians make the World Series for the first time in 19 years in 2016.
The Browns are desperately in need of saving, and maybe Williams is the man to do it. During his NFL tenure, he had a hand in developing five top-five defenses and eight in the top 10.
However, turning around a Browns team that went 1-15 last season and missed the playoffs for the 14th consecutive season would be his greatest work yet.
Seven is a lucky number? Not in northeastern Ohio. A front seven with supreme skill, led by the right coordinator, gives the Browns hope of a football renaissance in a city which has recently witnessed two profound resurrections in hoops and baseball.
DE-Jamie Meder NT-Shelton DE-Ogbah/Cooper/Nasib--(All out of position)
OLB-Ogbah-came on as an edge rusher ILB-Damario-Game but a step slow ILB-Kirko-beast OLB-Collins-beast
Current Projected Front 6 DE-Garret #1 Overall Pick 3-tech-Bryant/Cooper at the there natural positions DT-Shelton-Stud DE-Ogbah-back at natural position
I honestly think we will see Brantley in the heavy rotation. The guy is good. It won't take many plays with him splitting blocks to stop a back in the backfield or pestering the QB before he gets a lot of snaps.
...ID Davis is gone then you could shuffled the deck of LBs with Schobert or Alexander added in. Schobert could probably play any of the LBs spots and Alexander could play the WILL:
Several different combos- the ones i identified for sure:
SAM-Collins MIKE-Carder WILL-Kirko
SAM-Collins MIKE-Carder WILL-Schobert
SAM-Collins MIKE-Schobert WILL-Alexander
SAM-Carder MIKE-Schobert WILL-Alexander
They all looked good tonight. Schobert and Alexader looked very active and had a couple of run stops
Carder started iirc, didn't seem to make as many plays and had good step for step coverage but was beat with a couple of good throws where he was just a step behind to make the break-up vs Holtz
2. Defenses averaged a decade-low 4.24 pass rushers per dropback. The evolution toward more three-, four-, and five-wide looks has changed the calculus on defense. Instead of stacking the box and sending all-out blitzes at the quarterback, defensive schemes have been forced to drop more and more players into coverage to account for the increase in targets downfield. In 2010, defenses blitzed (defined as five or more defenders rushing at the quarterback) 33.2 percent of the time, per the Football Outsiders Almanac. By 2016, that number had dropped to 27.4 percent. As ESPN’s Mike Clay noted recently, “NFL quarterbacks faced [a] decade-low 4.24 pass rushers per drop back last year.”
The new normal for defensive coordinators is to try to get pressure with just four pass rushers. But that strategy hasn’t created a huge dropoff in their ability to apply pressure; per Clay, despite staring down a decade-low number of pass rushers, quarterbacks faced pressure on a decade-high 20.3 percent of their dropbacks last year.
There are a few ideas for why that’s happened: First, teams are increasingly creative in bringing pressure with linebacker/defensive back zone rushes (when a linebacker or corner rushes in while a defensive lineman drops into a passing lane), which is a great way to create pressure without sacrificing coverage downfield. Second, there’s been a big dropoff in offensive line talent over the past six or seven years. The NFL has changed, sure, but it hasn’t completely turned into the college game; offenses still run plenty of “pro-style” concepts, many of which are foreign to college players. Rookie linemen must learn how to sustain blocks, and must often learn how to start from a three-point stance from scratch. It has meant that there just aren’t many high-quality pass-protecting offensive lines left. Expect teams to keep sending four, dropping seven, and still managing to get pressure in 2017.
This is not a safety question, but how do you think he incorporates Schobert while keeping both Collins and Kirksey on the field? Rush Collins more (obviously), anything else you can see?
In base 43: SAM-Collins MIKE-Show WILL-Collins But Gregg isn't typically in base 43 very often ~30 or less.
I was wondering out loud about what Gregg would do in 3rd and long pure pass rush situations earlier in this thread. Gregg did a bunch of things this preseason. My guess would be in 'regular' Nickel: Kirksey + Collins
But, Gregg also had 3rd down snaps with Collins or Show as stand-up DEs, which is what I was thinking/hoping would happen while Kirksey+ whomever isn't at DE will line-up at the other ILB
...................ILB-Kirko+ILB-Collins/Show
DE-Collins/Show DT-Ogbah DT-Trevon DE-Garrett
Also, I don't think Gregg will use as much "big dime"/"little nickel" w/ the Browns as he did with Rams because I think our ILBs are equal to Mark Barron in terms of movement/coverage.
Everytime the Browns hire a new coordinator on either side of the ball these huge expectations come about Greg Williams...Brad Childress....Ray Horton....Norv Turner It's all.the same kool aid Greg Williams great defense last year allowed 31 points to the 49ers. Gave up 40 in 2 other games He's never been longer at one job than than 2 years I think the sack totals will be up But also i see a defense giving up alot of big plays
All teams mix things up. GW's defense got lit up last year.
I think it is more about talent than changing coaches.
I think it's about 50/50.
Hue had to have noticed something he didn't like about Horton's coaching and scheme.
From what I've seen from GW so far, he's putting his pieces in the right places to be successful. And I'm glad we're not sitting back and rushing 4 every down. Creating confusion and harassing the QB is the name of the game today. I also think the trend is moving back toward "faster" linebackers in a 4-3 in order to cover receivers.
Just so you know, last year under Williams, the Rams gave up:
--28 pts to SF w/Gabbert at qb.
--32 to Tampa Bay.
--30 to Buffalo. Really? I mean.........really?
--31 to Detroit.
-49 to New Orleans. Yeah, just one shy of freaking 50.
--26 to New England.
--42 to Atlanta
--22 to SF in yet another loss to the miserable 49ers.
--44 to the Cardinals.
Wow!!!!!! Dude's a genius!
I tried telling you guys last year when people were pimping how much better we would be w/Horton over O'Neil that talent trumps coaching. I faced the same ridicule then as I am now. In the end, I was about the only one defending Horton. LOL
I tried telling you guys last year when people were pimping how much better we would be w/Horton over O'Neil that talent trumps coaching. I faced the same ridicule then as I am now. In the end, I was about the only one defending Horton. LOL
Just so you know, last year under Williams, the Rams gave up:
--28 pts to SF w/Gabbert at qb.
--32 to Tampa Bay.
--30 to Buffalo. Really? I mean.........really?
--31 to Detroit.
-49 to New Orleans. Yeah, just one shy of freaking 50.
--26 to New England.
--42 to Atlanta
--22 to SF in yet another loss to the miserable 49ers.
--44 to the Cardinals.
Wow!!!!!! Dude's a genius!
I tried telling you guys last year when people were pimping how much better we would be w/Horton over O'Neil that talent trumps coaching. I faced the same ridicule then as I am now. In the end, I was about the only one defending Horton. LOL
Same old song and dance, my friend.
I can't say I disagree with you at all. Agreed, we are all entitled to our own opinions.
From a talent standpoint, last year the Browns defense looked like a Madden defense in rookie mode. I also know that Horton had consistently demonstrated a pattern of late game meltdowns stemming back to 2013 when he was previously with us.
This year, talent-wise, yes, it was the preseason, but run fits are easily the best I've seen from a Browns football team since '99 and I can't remember the details of the earlier years. Also, yes, preseason schemes, but there seems to be an extra "edge" to the play calling. Once again, admittedly TBD.
Not ridiculing you whatsoever, but we've seen players look better playing in a system that works better for them.
Also, I think Jim O'Neil could have the 2015 Broncos defense and still make it look like garbage. I couldn't believe just how much in 2015 we were unable to simply line up right.
Just thinking out loud. I know the truth is somewhere in between here.
Just so you know, last year under Williams, the Rams gave up:
--28 pts to SF w/Gabbert at qb.
--32 to Tampa Bay.
--30 to Buffalo. Really? I mean.........really?
--31 to Detroit.
-49 to New Orleans. Yeah, just one shy of freaking 50.
--26 to New England.
--42 to Atlanta
--22 to SF in yet another loss to the miserable 49ers.
--44 to the Cardinals.
Wow!!!!!! Dude's a genius!
I tried telling you guys last year when people were pimping how much better we would be w/Horton over O'Neil that talent trumps coaching. I faced the same ridicule then as I am now. In the end, I was about the only one defending Horton. LOL
Same old song and dance, my friend.
Just looking at the Buffalo game, the score doesn't tell the whole story. Gurley lost a fumble. Keenum threw 2 picks, one of them a pick 6. They held Taylor to 124 passing yards.
The 2nd SF game, Goff had 90 passing yards and 2 INTs.
I imagine the other games you tossed out the scores for looked similar. And they were against some pretty potent offenses.
He's not a miracle worker, and doesn't coach both sides of the ball. Will he magic bullet instantly fix the defense? Probably not, but Horton managed to make it worse.
Despite the scores, the Rams Defense was 4th best in the NFL in opponent 3rd down conversion percentage. We were predictably near the bottom in 30th.
I thought Williams did a bad job last year too, but then I watched the Amazon series All or Nothing. That Rams defense was devastated by injuries. On top of that they had to deal with a dreadful offense keeping them on the field.
I don't think Williams is some sort of savior, but I do think he will get the most out of the players.
Get that kid a real coach and get him started with the tours!
