I was thinking about this earlier.

What might have happened if the Browns had fired Hue, and promoted Arians Haley to head coach?

I wonder if Freddie would have been promoted to offensive coordinator under that scenario? I suspect that Arians Haley would have continued to call plays, and Freddie would have remained buried in the background.

I wonder if we would have seen the increased discipline we saw under Williams and Kitchens. I wonder if we would have seen the improved catch ability by the Browns receivers in the 2nd half of the season? I wonder if we would have seen any of the collaborative methods Freddie brought to the team? Would Baker have continued his 1st half, mediocre performance, or would he have improved as he did? Would he have broken the rookie record for TD passes?

I have to think not. It appears to me that the biggest improvement after Hue and Arians Haley were fired was that instead of trying to hammer square pegs into round holes, Freddie instead slid round pegs into round holes, and square pegs into square holes. He tailored his system to the players we have. I think that Arians Haley was set on running his system no matter what the team was actually capable of doing.

I think that the team was ready to move on from Hue, but I think that firing Arians Haley was every nit as important to the long term prospects of the team.

Thoughts?

Haley?

You mean Haley, right? not Arians?

Yeah, Haley.

Major brainfart.

Probably not. I mean Haley was calling the plays anyway and Baker was looking rough. So even if Haley got promoted but remained the playcaller, I dunno if we win 7 games.

Haley had most control over the offense. Haley called plays as if we had a 6'6 250 lb QB who likes to hold on to the ball for eternity, and not a 6' QB who has a nice quick release and more mobility within and out of the pocket.

Freddie did, though.

Why such bad blood against Haley...

Hue was a very bad influence, Haley was a good OC, we inherited his Offense and were very successful.

Why the need to make excuses for Hue, he was here 2 years without Haley and managed the grand feet of winning just one game.

C'mon Swish you too..

Haley had this offense scoring 21 points on average, we almost won and were competitive against NO...


This years it was Haley's offense, who after several games gave us a running game.


The big news was that we finally started playing like a team and have a balanced O. Baker was a very good surprise but we have to credit Haley for building an O that allowed him to play and didn't require the QB to pass 60% of the plays.

Haley was calling good games, only when Hue started messing around with the O things went sour, at least give the guy some slack.

We all saw Baker's reaction once Hue was fired, saying he problem was with Haley its just unfair to the guy.

Points a plenty from a short field given by the D...not once but more times than NOT. On his own Haley couldn't move his offense. And he chose to go dink and dunk...okay for TT I understood that but once Mayfield came on board and showed what he could do on the JETS game comeback...he reverted back to his Dink and Dunk stuff. WRs were dropping balls at an alarming rate not out of talent or lack of. But out of fear of being hit cause of the stupid O that Haley was running.

Also Haley had ANTI-CHARISMA. He lost me in his "CARL" bs from the TV show. Oh ok in the beginning I didn't think it was funny but it was amusing but after about the 20th time its was just poor character on his part and lacked leadership skills.

Nobody thought it was still funny.

Look at our Red Zone success under Haley.

Look at it under Kitchens.

Look at all the achievements done by Kitchens that Haley couldn't do. Opening drive success. 1st quarter success.

And then tell me how good Haley was. It had not much to do with Hue. Haley had the O and full control of it.

jmho did you watch our games. well if not just look at the facts/stats of our games under Haley then under Kitchens...just amazing transformation. Haley sucked.

It was Haley's playbook, don't play dumb please. Haley was successful in Pitt,and he had us scoring 21 points in average, this without BM and against very good D's...

Only when Hue started messing, the thing got tore apart. It was clear that Hue had no player support and the team chemistry was very bad.

All things that the Hue defenders said about him were not true, so please don't try to find justifications.

Haley deserves his credit, he did us nothing wrong, quite the contrary IMHO. Team was a mess because of Hue, we all saw what followed.

Why the need to bash Haley?

Now "almost won" is good enough for you? Hindsight has some singing a different tune. What Freddie ran was not what we saw Haley running. Revisionist history won't change that.

Unless Haley was sandbagging, the team wouldn’t have improved as much as it did with him as the interim coach and still calling plays.

Haley was undermining Hue. That much is clear. He had no integrity in his position.

I agree.

Also, discord on the team was at least partially related to Haley's apparent desire to be the head coach of this team once Hue was fired, and his doing enough stuff to undermine Hue along the way to result in his own firing.

No one can convince me that the team felt wonderful putting the team into Gregg Wiliams's hands. The storyline about his history alone made him an unlikely choice .... but he became the only choice.

A couple of funny things happened, though. Williams settled into a toned down role of head coach. Kitchens took Arians offense, and made it hum.

Total yards by game:

1st 8: 327, 327, 323, 498, 416, 317, 305, and 237. 4 of those games were OT games, which resulted in additional yards on offense.

Final 8: 388, 427, 342, 429, 348, 309, 493, and 426.

Baker, in the 1st 5.5 games 130/222, 58.5%, 1472 yards, 6.63 yards/pass play, 8 TD, 6 INT, 20 sacks.

Baker in final 8 games of the season (under Kitchen) 180/263, 68.4%, 2253 yards, 8.57 yards/pass play , 19 TD, 8 INT, 5 sacks.

That's a huge difference.

The receivers played better under Kitchens. Drops decreased to almost none. The OL played much, much better.

The defense grabbed 22 turnovers in the 1st 8 games, but only 13 in the final 8. That's still good, but man the defense gave the offense opportunity after squandered opportunity in the 1st 8 games.

We watched Chubb tear off 2 huge runs against the Raiders ... and Haley nailed him to the bench .. with only 3 runs in each of the next 2 games, until Dorsey got fed up and traded Hyde.


I think that we might have been a 3 or 4 win team if Haley had taken over after Hue was fired, and we would have a whole new coaching staff/systems this coming year.

It's odd to me that you continue to inject references to Arians into your thread. I admit it is your thread, but it just seems curious that you continue to make reference to someone whose only connection to the 2018 Browns was his inelegant politicking in the media to get hired as Browns HC.

In my opinion it just adds needless confusion to the question you are asking everyone to consider. Simply put, Haley implementation of his own offense was underwhelming. He was unable or unwilling to adjust. He did not incorporate Chubb in the offense even after he displayed exceptional production with limited touches. He continued to call plays relying on longer developing routes causing #6 to hold the ball too long. He had no strategy to get touches for one of our best offensive weapons, Duke. Our third down conversion rate and our red zone TD percentage were bottom half of the league.

If Haley were still running the offense our defense would have bee burdened with way more defensive snaps.

We would be selecting top 5, as usual.

I do think it was Haley's offense and not Hue's.
I don't think Haley was sandbagging.
I do think Kitchens just did a better job catering to what his QB was good at.

Just my thoughts...

A guy like Kitchens., working under a guy like Haley, could have been buried on the staff for many years. Just keeping to himself and doing his job. This is the kind of guy you want to keep on your staff, production without ego.

Sometimes things happen for a reason, maybe after all these years, things might actually go our way. What's sad, is nothing inside me gives me true hope that that's the case. This team has toyed with my emotions so much over the years, I won't believe anything until I see it. I want to believe, and even act as if I do, but deep down, I just know something is going to blow the whole deal.

Only thing that gives me a little hope, is that guys like Parcells talk to this guy. He seems to know many in the league, and the perception of him is the same just about everywhere.

Would it be wild, if Kitchens turns out to be the coach for 10 years or so?My mind would be blown in a million different ways.

I screwed up with the names. Major brain fart. I had corrected it though.

Thoughts?

If the Browns defense falls off, even 1 percent, then they're worse off than keeping Williams.

I think with the addition of players in FA and the draft and a new Co-ordinator this D IMO will be much much better than last years ...

I think that people get caught up in the turnovers, which are important ... but they lose sight of just how bad this defense was.

3rd worst in total defense. We allowed the 8th most pass yards, and the 5th most rushing yards. We were 21st in points allowed. We were tied for 22nd in sacks. We allowed the 2nd most rushing TD.

I think that some people like the idea of Williams while not really examining what his defense did on the field.

Thats why I think this D will be much better losing Williams didn't bother me as much as some ...

I think people conflate Gregg Williams the interim head coach with Gregg Williams the defensive coordinator. One was successful, one was not.

I don't see how it is clear. I don't see that.




I don't think they liked each other. I agree with that. Neither one of them is a likable person.

I didn't like either on of them. One was abrasive and a bully and the other was a weak person with a ego far bigger than his shadow.

Agreed

I think the answer to your question is simple. No we wouldn't have had significant improvement. We would have continued the dysfunction. Baker would have continued to struggle. And we would have hired Stefanski to be our new HC. Assuming he would be interested in it given the horrible year we would have have and the only so-so year Baker would have had.

I think a more interesting question is:

What would have happened if we had fired Hue at the end of last season?
Who would we have hired? How would our season have done?

Matt Nagy. Playoffs.

Ooh, good speculation.
Do you think Nagy picks the Browns over the Bears?

Jc

Cant figure why Throw long loves our last year defense.
As bad as our stats was when i watched them we was WAY WORSE !

Our D needed turnover on that side.
Jmo

No clue. But there were rumors at the time that that’s who Dorsey wanted. The Bears sans Mack is a worse job than what we were offering at this point last off-season.

don't play dumb please.

You didn't really say that did you...

First game first Quarter:
Total 43 yards...thems great OC STUD stuff

0-0

2nd quarter: 55 yards and we so far have made 3 INTs
Half - Losing 7-0

3rd Quarter: 114 yards and an actual TD drive on the opening drive...oh on a GREAT offensive call as TT scrambles for 20 yards and a TD.

4th quarter: opening with a negative 1 yard...great O.
Next time we get the ball with just 53 yards for the TD as our DEFENSE played great. Our offense went 24 yards and turned the ball over on downs.

Then our next possession we gain only 1 yard! But guess what our DEFENSE GAVE US THE BALL ON THE STEELER 1 TD by our great offense.

We get another Fumble on the Steelers 37 yard line...oh boy our Offense will definitely score...ummm no after NEGATIVE 2 yards. no score just a punt.

Defense Again give us the ball with great field position. Just 55 yards for a score...Boom Boom two passes and we gain those 55 yards for the game tying TD!

77 total yards in the 4th.
289 yards of Offense. Good drive, 20 Scramble not great playbook, ONE yard TD drive maybe I was correct stating how our defense got us points.

Then short field we scored quickly to tie.

Defense got us this game and the tie!

Overtime, 4 possessions and the Great Haley was able to accumulate a total of 15 yards and our D got another Fumble on the Steelers 24 3 plays, negative 1 yard and then missed FG again had a shot cause of the DEFENSE no help from the O.

I'm tired and will not do every game.

But your INSULT of me being DUMB again is TROLLING As our Defense carried us not Haley's playbook...Two long passes??? on a short field due to the D??? That was his contribution for the O.

Not so dumb just correct stop this trolling crap! Your football sucks!

I might have stopped going to the games and stopped being a season ticket holder.

Good point. I gave consideration that we were pre Baker. Forgot they were pre Mack too.
I think it would have come down to who Nagy liked better between Trubisky and the incoming Draft class. At the time likely Darnold. Darnold was considered most likely to be the #1 overall pick at that time and I doubt Dorsey would have shared the Baker plan to an interviewing coach.

For me it was clear when Josh Gordon was on the field for the first snap of the first game (he started) after Hue said he wasn't going to start... and then Hue said after the game that he was upset that happened...

I don't think there's anything that says we had a problem more than this...

Interesting....

I play the what if game from time to time...

I think we would have won more games under Haley than under Hue but not as many as Williams... Baker would have willed us into a few wins. maybe 5-10-1? And I would agree that Stefanski becomes coach... however, what if the Vikings don't fire Flip? Then who?

It's fun to think about for sure. My "what if's" start at the beginning of the rebuild and what if we don't hire Hue and hired a different coach instead. Do we finish in line for the 1st pick two years in a row? Do we not have Garrett or Baker.


I am ecstatic with how things worked out, but the with butterfly effect we could be looking at a completely different team today than what we currently have...

That game was in a deluge! The Pitt O is high powered and they were struggling mightly too.

Add to that the Refs cost us about 3 scores.Here's one:



Don't get me wrong, it's for the best overall that Haley and Hue are gone, but Haley was def not as bad as people are making him out to be. Especially with Tyrod at QB.

Are you insinuating that 21 points per game is good? We finished the season averaging 22.8 points per game and that ranked 20th.

Take out the 42 point eruption vs Oakland's NFL worst defense and we average about 18 pts/game (under Haley). That ranks in the bottom 5 of the league. We averaged almost 24 points under Kitchens which would have had us in the top half of the league.

Also I don't think Baker's reaction to Hue's firing has anything to do with Haley. I don't think we really know how Baker felt about Haley.

It sounds like the one thing Hue and Haley agreed upon was not starting Baker, which proved to be the demise of them both.

Haley was not as bad as Hue but he was still bad. Is it any coincidence that neither currently have jobs in the NFL?

I heard that Hue was interviewing with the Cards but I’ve not heard of Haley getting any interviews.

If you take out the one game vs a bad D then you need to take out the Ravens and Saints for being top Ds.

Add to that week 1 was in a deluge, and 2.5 games had Captain Checkdown at QB (and that's not a shot at Tyrod, that's why we brought him in, to be safe).

I say let's just count it all.

what if Haley would't have let Kitchens call plays in the 4th preseason game?

This is key, and ultimately cost Haley the job. He came in with the idea he would oust Hue and take over as HC. That type of subterfuge and scheming will not fly in Haslam's org. But I think it goes far beyond that. In simple terms, Haley's the kind of guy who will make fun of your name and do what's best for Haley. Kitchens always has winning, the players, and building relationships as his priorities. I think that is what got Freddie his two promotions.

I'm trying to remember; Didn't Haley come on board in Hue's 2nd year, after they didn't win a game except the missed Field goal, or block, on Christmas Day against the Chargers?

Alll the struggles of 2017, well documented... my memory of Hue, apologizing for not winning a road game all year, or was it, not a home game all year,

Can't blame Haley for that, MUCH of That, was before Haley even joined the Browns.

But blanket, it's 2019 ! Let's move on.

Where did you come up with this? I have not seen anywhere that Haley tried to oust Hue, only that he agreed to take the job here because he didn't think that Hue would keep the job long based on the fact that Hue only won 1 game the year before and the Haslams' penchant for being quick on firing head coaches.

Maybe oust is too strong a word, perhaps "intent to take over" is better phrasing.

"According to Rutigliano, Haley’s purpose in taking the job with the Browns in January was to eventually become the head coach."

Link

However you phrase it, he came in at odds with Hue by virtue of the fact he wanted Hue's job.

In my humble opinion Haley’s main issue was that he didn’t adjust his play calling to suit the talent he had. He wants to call what he wants to call and the players better execute seemed to be his strategy. Great.... well.... that means Duke never gets on the field. How an OC can ignore that talent is unforgivable. Chubb not getting meaningful playtime? Once he finally got some reps it was clear he should have been out there earlier and Hue pretty much confirmed it.

Haley was very stubborn and couldn’t adapt his offense to the players he had.. honestly I don’t think he wanted to. That is where Freddie is already light years ahead. Now being stubborn like that doesn’t automatically mean you’ll fail... just inreases the odds. Seemed ok in PIT until they had enough of it.

100 percent agree.

I read somewhere that Freddie didn't bring his own playbook or anything. He merely added a few things and called the plays in Haley's Playbook that put his guys in the best position to succeed.

Haley didn't seem good at that. Freddie tailored the gameplan and playcalling to his players. Haley seemed to want to call what he wanted to call no matter who was on the field.

I'm not sure if that's stubborness or ego or what. But it was a downfall.


As for Chubb; i wasn't a proponent of the Carlos Hyde trade when it happened. I thought that while Carlos didn't have the breakaway ability that Chubb did, Chubb was a liability in pass protection. I was totally wrong. Throughout the season he became so much better at that. He also showed more confidence in his hands.

Chubb was the better player, and he and Duke got more touches, and we netted a fifth round pick from the Jags. Wonderful for us.

One of the issues that was reported in the Hue/Haley feud was that Hue wanted Haley to run an up tempo offense with quick throws by Baker but Haley refused because at the time Higgins was out, Callaway was banged up, Perriman had just been signed, and Haley was afraid of wearing out the existing WRs and shortly after that Hue and Haley were fired. If the WRs had been healthy who knows maybe Hue and Haley would still be here. Thank God that didn't happen.

Did you come to that conclusion on the great use of Haley's playbook on that ONE YARD DRIVE...

Again my point was in the beginning of the season our DEFENSE Gave the Offense great field position and also we were leading the NFL IN TURNOVERS...that was my point when it was being statistically heralded by POINT TOTAL.

I think I more than proved my point and I was actually disappointed in Haley as coming into the season I thought we Got our guy and it was a great hire...and I admitted that I was WRONG!

I gave facts. And outside of the one Series where we went 55 yards on two plays for a TD.

What I saw from Haley was a Dink and Dunk Offense. I get it from TT as he was not that accurate and he could handle the dink and dunk. But after Baker started and showed a history of what he could do in coming from behind against the JETS...for us to go back to the DINK and DUNK game plan with BAKER was horrific.

jmho