Once the old thread is closed, the discussion can continue here...with the approval of those in charge..our refs..

If it hasn't been said in a 10 page long thread, it probably doesn't need said.

You know Mac is a pitbull.Once he latches onto something he will not let go.

As long as the “M-word” isn’t used, it’s all good.

jc...

I think we can all agree, the goal of the Browns making the playoffs in 2020 is closer now that it was 3 or 4 yrs ago.

With Freddie being such a disaster, his team did win 6 games and expecting 4 more wins in 2020 "is not some unattainable dream"...it is much closer to "becoming reality".

I don't care who takes the credit for getting the Browns to the playoffs but I don't want to the franchise waste this opportunity.

If there is one lesson to be learned from the last 4 seasons...it is a helluva lot easier to build a loser than it is to build a winner.

Being as close as we are today, EVERYONE IN THE FRONT OFFICE should have the same goal...do what has to be done to finally get the Browns back in the hunt for a Super Bowl appearance.

To Device:



The article stated that hue didn't want Watson. It was widely reported that Hue liked Watson, and Watson even stated that hue text him be ready. After the fact hue said he didn't recall texting him that (which is not a surprise). But Watson was pretty clear he did.

Regardless of what actually happened there - the author is blaming that trade and pick on Hue, and not the FO at the time. Sorry, thats just made up BS and pure speculation with 0 facts to back up his claim.

The guys is saying all the "football" picks were bad, all the data picks were good.

I can play his game and make up assumptions as facts too. If we didn't go with the data guys we would have had Wentz, Myles, and Hooker on our team, but were left with Corey Coleman, Myles, Jabrill, and Njoku.

I cant twist things as well as the author too.

Right from Hue's mouthpiece, our friend, Mike Silver.

In an attempt to finally put to rest what John Dorsey did with the Chiefs while running their draft...this explains who positioned the Chiefs so they could draft Mahones.


Andy Reid: Chiefs had “a pretty good idea” how high they had to trade to draft Mahomes

Posted by Michael David Smith on January 29, 2020, 8:18 AM EST

At the time that the Chiefs traded two first-round picks and a third-round pick to move up to No. 10 overall to select Patrick Mahomes in the 2017 NFL draft, it looked like they were taking a big risk. Now that we know how great a player Mahomes is, the real risk was waiting until No. 10, rather than giving up even more and trading up even higher to get Mahomes.

But Chiefs coach Andy Reid said today that the Chiefs felt quite confident that as long as they got somewhere in the Top 10, they could get Mahomes. Reid said the Chiefs were studying every report about every other team’s plans, and 10th overall was a spot where they thought Mahomes would be there.

“Because of the media attention that gets put on the draft around that time, people talk,” Reid said. “We had a pretty good idea who was interested and who wasn’t. [John] Dorsey was in charge of the draft at that time and he maneuvered up to get him, knowing who was out there and who the threats were.”

The reality is, no team ever knows for sure what every other team thinks, and it only takes one team hiding its intentions for a player to be picked higher than anyone expects. But the Chiefs pulled off a shrewd move, and they deserve credit for landing Mahomes, making a move that a whole lot of teams now wish they had made.
link


Vers touched on this subject in another thread..that Hue was kept in the dark about the 2017 draft because he didn't agree with Sashi and Depodesta on their judgement of the QBs in the 2017 draft.

The Browns had the #1 pick and #12 pick of the 2017 draft. The word was that Hue Jackson did not want Mitch Trubiski as his QB and had been very open with Haslam that he preferred Garrett with the #1 pick and not Trubiski.

Had the Browns Analytics crew been a better judge of QB talent and recognized that Mahones was the gem of the draft, they could have made a play to move up to #10 and draft Mahones. Coming away with Myles Garrett and Patrick Mahones might have set this franchise up for a very long time.

Also, from the information in this article, the Chiefs gave up 2 first round picks and a 3rd round pick to move to #10 to draft Mahones and may have given up more to get him.

The guy in charge of the Chiefs draft was JOHN DORSEY.

Oh what could have been...

Watson on day of draft

And, this was from Silver, on the same day you posted that excerpt if you look at the time stamp.

Brett Veach is the one who was actually responsible for discovering Patrick Mahomes and selling both Reid and team owner Clark Hunt on Mahomes. Afterwards, they got Dorsey on board.

Brett Veach is the guy that replaced Dorsey as the GM in KC after Dorsey was fired.

Here's the article....

‘We got it done!’: The inside story of how Patrick Mahomes landed with the Chiefs

Guess when Silver wrote the article.....before 12/7/17. And it's not the first time Silver played revisionist history for Hue Jackson. Look up what Silver wrote about Hue's opinion on Wentz and then we he walked it back to try and save his buddy.

It's all there and this been pointed out constantly in the past.

And shorty after, Dorsey was let go. For what I can only imagine a few diff. reasons.

Hue like Malik and Watson at 12. The data guys traded down. Yes or no?

And speaking of revisionist history, as I said before:

I can play his game and make up assumptions as facts too. If we didn't go with the data guys we would have had Wentz, Myles, and Hooker on our team, but were left with Corey Coleman, Myles, Jabrill, and Njoku.

Yes, they did. That's not my point. You said there were reports Hue wanted Watson. I showed you who he wanted at 12. It was Hooker, not Watson. Texting someone "be ready, anything can happen" is nebulous at best.

The Hue mouthpiece wrote an article right after the draft saying who he preferred. The FO took neither. Then trying to help his buddy out, Silver walked it back saying who he REALLY wanted. It's all there.

Then you can take up the revisionist history piece with Mike Silver.

@MikeSilver (Twitter)

A lot of it sounds like some of the same issues Dorsey had in Cleveland. As many have said, he's a good talent evaluator and poor on the management side.

The John Dorsey Dismissal: Where It Went Wrong in K.C.

Agreed.

You guys are going to be begging for Dorsey back before the end of the 2020 season, **** i'd maybe even say before the end of 2020 NFL Draft

Just wait to see what this Mr Assistant 1-31 twit in Berry thinks is a good player LOL

We are so screwed.

The entire point of this discussion is talking about the article that stated hue DIDNT want Watson. That's not true. He preferred Hooker, but like Watson as well. The article I stating it was Hue that wanted to trade down, but that was not correct. Hue would have easily took Hooker or Watson at 12 - I believe is safe to say.

Silver, has given two reports - one that he wanted Watson, one that he wanted Hooker - agree?

I will go ahead and say you do. No where, ever - other than this report - said Hue or the football guys - wanted to trade down.



You replied:



It is the point, because this entire discussion I have been having is on the crap article that was posted saying different. So we agree, the article is baseless and nothing but crap.

You realize that a lot of times, the data and football guys both agree on players right? Lol.

Your saying the pick is going to be bad because the data guys are making it - not even knowing what the pick is yet - or who. Agenda?

No. I believe he wrote one report saying Hue wanted Hooker. A tweet saying he, all of a sudden, wanted something different roughly 6 months later trying to save his boy's face. I'm guessing that tweet also came after the McCarron debacle that was Hue Jackson as well.



And I'll go back and re-read the article but, at first, I don't recall it stating that Hue wanted to trade down. I thought the author referenced in general trading down because when it came to a QB Hue didn't want, trading down was now an option, so they did to acquire draft capital. My first reaction to that point in the article was also Wentz. Trading down because Hue didn't want him at 2, which Silver also tweeted out. Ironically enough, he went the revisionist route on that too.

As far as the Hue stuff goes, it's spot on. I've been following this saga since it's inception. Hue didn't want Wentz @2, Hue wanted Garrett @1, Hue wanted Hooker @12. Hue started Kizer against the recommendation of the front office. All true.

Silver was so good you quoted him to try and make your point. As soon as he was no longer a useful pawn in your chess match, he's a piece of crap again.



Helps me = Solid source

Doesn't help me = POS

You clearly are not following.

Depo is the guy that said Wentz was not going to be a NFL quality QB. See the Depo QUOTE below.



and from I remember, the data guys wanted Trubisky.

He did, that doesn't mean he didn't like Watson or wanted to trade down.

Who else was there to start again? Your acting like this was a bad decision, it wasn't. Kizer stunk, but at the time - sadly, he was the best QB we had on the roster talent wise.

No, no its not.

Is Myles Garrett or Mitch Trubisky on our roster? Did I miss something? The "data guys" were in charge and took Garrett. Or was Hue in charge and he took Garrett? And if Hue was in charge were the other picks his too?

I'm confused.

You aren't confused. Other people are.

From your reply, you still didn't debunk anything I said about Hue.

Hue still didn't want Wentz @2, but Depodesta said he wasn't a top 20 QB.
Hue wanted Garrett, "data guys" wanted Trubisky.
Hue wanted Hooker over Watson. Hue has also said you don't pass on a franchise quarterback. Hue didn't want to trade down from what I understand, but the point of contention was Hue wanted to draft Watson @12, which is false.
Who else was here to play QB? We had McCown, Osweiler, and Kessler all with experience as a starter. Hue chose Kizer. I will still contend that we would not have gone winless had any of those other 3 been named the starter.

Your wrong.

We had Kizer, Kessler, and Hogan going into 17. that's what hue had to chose from. McCown and Osweiler were in 16 before Kizer was drafted. All 3 started, and all 3 lost.

hahahahahahhahaa

again, this is all about the article - you just proved my point!!!! The article says that the players that busted were the football guys picks, but as you said who made the picks - hue or the FO? Sooooooo THE ARTICLE IS CRAP. The article wants to give the data gusy credit for the good picks and blames the bad picks on Hue.

this all started because I pointed out that the data guys did the draft, they get to own the bad picks.

Are we talking about the SI/Maven article? If so:

RG3, McCown, Kessler were 2016.

We still had McCown under contract when Hue asked him to be a coach. McCown still wanted to play. We released him.

We traded for Osweiler March of 2017 and we started him in the preseason. Joe Thomas even thought we were grooming him to be the starter.

Then Hue started Kizer the one preseason game and named him the starter against the front office's recommendations.

Hue had a say on the quarterbacks. That was the point and the point made in the article.

Hue isn't a 'data' guy, and I'm pretty sure at this point that he definitely isn't a 'football' guy, so why is everyone still talking about him?

Dude couldn't lead his way out of a wet paper bag. Period.

But he sure can jump in a lake in June with the best of them!

Yes, but how is his swimming technique?

no no no, all just told me the data guys were in charge. You cant have it both ways lol. I know you want to pic and chose, either they were in charge drafting or they were not.
And what I have been trying to POINT OUT is that even AFTER you stated the FO of the data guys were in charge, the ARTICLE yet still blames the football guys for scooby wright shon coleman drango.

The entire article basically trieds to paint any bad player as a "football guy pick" and the good/decent players as "data guy" picks.

Sheesh - its literally in the other thread the article - from yesterday and yall are trying to change what it says and revise it already lol.

I thought that said "Hue sat on the quarterbacks" and I was like, well, things are finally making sense!

Literally no one thought osweiler was here to play, if you did I am sorry. He was here to simply to buy a draft pick. They played him in the PreSeason hoping to get a team interested to trade for him and get a higher value.

Hue had Cody, Kizer, and Hogan for 17. Hindsight is 20/20, but Kizer at the time was actually and sadly still the best decision to start.

They were in charge. Specifically, Sashi was in charge. He had final say on the roster and final say in the draft (picking or trading), Yet, he weighed several opinions from DePo (analytics), Berry (player evaluation), and Hue (the QB "Guru"). People keep trying to paint this picture (not you) that Sashi locked himself in a room and did his best Mr. Burns "excellent" pose in everything related to the Browns. If anything, that would closely align better with Dorsey than Sashi, IMO. And it's probably a major reason why Dorsey is gone.



One of the fails of Sashi's time here was relying on Hue's "expertise" regarding the QB position. Do people recall when Hue said "the ground shook beneath my feet" for RG3? How about Mike "The Mouthpiece" Silver sharing:

"I talked to Hue about Wentz many, many times pre-draft. Jackson never disparaged his ability. Thought 2 was too high to take him."
9/6/2016

https://twitter.com/chadp71/status/1058143265462067200

Yet, we blame Depo for his comments when I think all of the pronouns used were "we" referring to the organization, instead of "I" referring to his own personal decision or soemthing?

Do we forget the "trust me" comment about Kessler that again, Mike "the Mouthpiece" Silver saying that Hue was pumped, or maybe it was "amped" just after that selection? (Yes, analytics according to the article has a piece of this too)

How about Hue trying to give up a 2nd and a 3rd for McCarron only to have Sashi intentionally nix the trade at the last minute?

It was said from the moment Hue was hired (by both Jimmy and Sashi) that he would have a huge influence on the QB selection and maturation. It was said again in 2017, after people were questioning the plan/process, that Hue would still continue to have a voice about the QB. It was the wrong decision.

The article referenced so many times from Pete Smith has a clear negative tone towards Hue Jackson. If anyone follow him on Twitter, he bashes Hue. He also bashes Dorsey. The tone is certainly skewed in a negative way towards Hue and the disdain for him shines through. I have the same disdain. He was terrible. He might go down as the worst HC in the history of sports and the only thing to match is sucktitude was the constant throwing under the bus and trying to change the narrative to save face...and using media buddies to do so.

Sashi's reliance/acceptance to listen to Hue about the QB was, in the end, a bad decision by him. Along with other choices. However, if Jimmy would have just listened to everyone at the time Hue would have never worn orange and brown. McDermott would have.

Someone else pointed this out about one of the the article's points showing Hue's impact on the QB. I agree with that.

I'd rephrase this to exhibit my own opinion to say that the main reason for the trade was NOT Brock Osweiler or addressing the QB position.

It was for the 2nd rounder.
Period.
Part of asset accumulation mode.

Whether Osweiler was on the roster or not, the Browns were paying his salary for one year.

There was no long-term plan for BO, IMO. Whether or not the plan was to cut him regardless at the end of training camp, I don't know. Frankly, I don't think the FO cared at the time of the trade. They got what they wanted first and foremost....the pick.

If BO would warrant a spot on the roster or not, I'm guessing they were to let the chips fall where they may because they were going to have to pay him anyways for 2017.

In the end, not surprised he was cut.

This is precisely how I feel on the subject.

It's not having it both ways. It's just how it was.

Also true.

Osweiler may have been our best chance to win in 2017. Hue opted for Kizer.

Personally, I thought Kizer was the one who gave us the least chance to win. I hated the pick, but when we made it I was on board. He was a Brown. And he should have never played.

It seems like that was the case to start at QB. Certainly.

But Sashi cut BO. That was his call, which is fine....unless someone threw a temper tantrum if he stayed on the roster, but I'm not sure that was the case.

that what I said, he was here for the draft pick. . . .

But that still doesn't change the fact that AT THE TIME - Kizer was the best option to start.

Now that Depodesta has wiped out the front office of all things associated with football...next for Depo is to fire all the football scouts and replace them with Moneyballers.

Write it down...the Moneyballers are going to strip this team down again and have no intention of trying to win with the talent the football guys assembled over the last two years.

Bro, you're officially going off the deep end.

I don't know about all that. lol

can you explain "strip down?"

Specific example of what you think is going to happen?

fixed it for you

In Depos first year, the football scouts disagreed with the Moneyballers assessment of QB Carson Wentz.

Three weeks before the draft and those football scouts were fired. That was the first time some began to question, what the hell are they doing in Cleveland, firing scouts right before the draft?

Depodesta didn't have them fired to win more football games, did he...

Correct. Depo didn't have them fired.

He means tear it down and start all over. He thinks Moneyballers have some strange depravity with sweeping everything away and starting over to build something cheaper. He refers to "DePodesta's Moneyball Scheme" as if it's some endless, cycling attempt to convince Jimmy that Moneyball will work if we just trade out some of the people in Berea and start Moneyballing all over again.

In other words, DePo has no interest in building a winning organization, just endless "Moneyballing".

[quote]Depodesta didn't have them fired to win more football games, did he? [/color]

DID HE?

You remember that slump during Depos first two seasons in charge of the franchise...that 1 win AND 32 LOSSES.

What I find interesting...Depodesta is not know for bringing any individual player to the Browns based on his analytics...

...tell me what Depo has done to help the Browns franchise win during the time he running the front office...ANYONE?

Depo is best known as the Moneyball guy from the Browns who declared Wentz wouldn't be a top tier QB. Depo is best known for his poor assessment of football talent.

One of the Moneyballers used the phrase "strip the team down to the studs"

...means the same thing though.

Ill ask you again, since you decided not to answer.

Depodesta is going back to playing Moneyball...passing over needed talent to gain draft picks for the future.

Depodesta doesn't give a damn if this team ends up winning just 2 or 3 games year.

Depodesta doesn't know how to build a football team to win now...all he knows is Moneyball.

Depo has never had a season where he was in charge of the franchise, so which two years are you imagining?

He tried to prevent us from hiring Hue. He wasn't listened to; instead, the owner got his choice.

He tried to prevent us from hiring Freddie. He wasn't listened to; instead, the football guy got his choice.

He tried to get us to hire the guy we finally hired this year; a football guy made sure that didn't happen the first time he recommended it.

He developed the plan that gave the coveted football guys more Draft capital and Cap Space to re-launch a franchise than we'd seen since the Expansion Draft.




Tell me... who has ever done more QUALITY work to help this team than him??

can you explain "strip down?"

Specific example of what you think is going to happen?


Who are they going to trade/cut?
Who do you think they are going to draft or trade down with?
Who do you think they will not sign?

Specifics please. I cant have a conversation with you if I don't know where you actually stand and think.

Its one thing to raise you fist and yell at the clouds, its another to present your case with actual information and scenarios we can discuss.

Depodesta is as much responsible for the 1 win in 2 seasons as anyone...and you do know that!

Depodesta judged the QB talent in the draft in 2016 and 2017 and got it so wrong both times. Analytics told Depo that Kizer and Kessler were best for the Browns.

Like I challenged everyone...tell what talent Depo has added to the team in 2016 and 2017, to help the team win.What players did Depo add?

For sure... but if your HC isn't going to use the 17 million dollar man, why not cut him and recoup some of the cost? I'm sure if Hue said Osweiler is my guy this year we would not have cut him. Joe Thomas was convinced this was the case, or maybe he was just hoping that was the case.

1. Yes, but much of that is side-effect of DESIGN for that phase. It isn't the global "every year" plan. Only an utter fool would believe that it is the blueprint for every single year under them, ever.

2. No, pretty much only Hue wanted Kizer. The other talents were judged to be good talents, but we were not a team ready to add a high-level QB, yet.

3. I gave you a list of what he's TRIED to do; but you keep asking an irrational question because the answer is DEPO DOESN'T ADD PLAYERS AT ALL. HE DEVELOPS STRATEGIES AND MAKES RECOMMENDATIONS. HE DOES NOT TURN IN DRAFT CARDS.

He's been off the deep end for awhile now.

Wasn't that McDaniels?

Robert Stalnaker (I have no idea who he is) accepts your challenge...

This is just trolling.

Strip down = not signing Kareem Hunt long term

Something much bigger going on here in Cleveland than the fans realize.

I agree. Kind of cool, right?

This looks more like CrystalBall than Moneyball. What is this based on, Mac. Just trying to connect the dots here. What outcomes do you expect overall? Not saying you are wrong anymore than I am able to declare you right. Just puzzling this out in the spirit of fairness here.

I haven’t been paying close attention to what has been happening. Can you tell me if I got the basics right?

McDaniels was interviewed and wanted to start from scratch. A report came out that Browns management didn’t think we needed a complete rebuild. Depo’s role hasn’t changed since the day he started. Our new coach does not have to report to the analytics team.

We have a coach and GM who are both football and analytics guys that are both liked by Depo.

Nailed it.

Yup. It's a complete disaster.

None. That isn't and wasn't his job. Depo lives in you head. He is the one causing your convulsions and drooling.

Some fans. The ones that do think it is pretty exciting.


Go to bed before you have a stroke.

There seems to be some players missing,OBJ,Landry,Hunt.A coupla of those guys were draft picks not FA.
Mr.Stalnaker is dishonest.

None of those guys were free agents. It says free agents and extensions.

I don't know or accept the person's methodology but the names they presented are accurate.

jc...

As Eliot Wolf leaves the Browns, Ron Wolf blasts “out of control” analytics

Posted by Michael David Smith on January 29, 2020, 5:39 PM EST
link

The Browns and assistant general manager Eliot Wolf parted ways today, and in related news, Wolf’s father had some harsh criticism for the Browns’ analytics-heavy approach to building their team.

Ron Wolf, the Hall of Fame former General Manager of the Packers, told Chris Mortensen of ESPN that he disdains the way analytics have affected both football and baseball. Wolf said the Browns and other teams that embrace analytics are “out of control.”

“When something goes wrong, who takes responsibility?” Wolf said. “Their answer: ‘Well, that’s what the data told us.’ What a crock. That’s what got ’em 1-31.”

Ron Wolf certainly has an old-school approach to the game, and it served him well during his tenure in the NFL, which spanned most of the second half of the 20th Century. But in the 21st Century, analytics are an increasingly important part of the NFL. The Browns’ failures don’t negate that.

Old school. Cool, so am I.

Old school doesn't work anymore.

Tell that to SF and KC. Meanwhile. the new school brought us 1 and 31.

It never ceases to amaze me how many folks are completely clueless.

1. Do we know how much of the 49ers' and Chiefs' processes are data driven?

2. There is more than one way to skin a cat.

3. Welcome back!

Good to see you posting again, even if you "aren't a fan" anymore.


No need to get back in to 1-31 talk. It's like politics. Either you are for or against the "Harvard Boys" or you are for or against "Hubert".

The conversation leads nowhere and I am not going to get in to old worn out debates.

Thanks...with respect.

We do know that you made fun of SF for hiring Lynch. We know that he is a football guy and that Shanny came from a football family.

Some of us football guys know that analytics are a great tool. We value them and want to use them to make our product better. On the other hand, we also know that experience and an eye for talent also matters. We understand that working together is important.

We further understand that developing a winning culture is a very hard thing to do and that purposely losing games in multiple seasons is especially hard to overcome in a sport that plays so very few games like football. We understand that baseball consists of 162 games and you play most days of the week. We understand that there are 82 games in the NBA season for each team and you have multiple games per week. We understand the amount of devastation that losing so many games can cause in the NFL due to the limited number of games they play and time lapses between games.

Some of us understand that is it ignorant to ignore analytics and their powers. However, we also understand that there is a place for both sound scouting, experience in the game of football, and analytics. We scoff at those who are so narrow-minded that they can't see the good in both sides.

Tools are designed to help complete a job. A hammer is a marvelous tool. However, a hammer in the hands of an idiot is a weapon of destruction rather than a tool of construction.

Let's hope Jimmy Haslam stays out of the way.



We do?

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...-gm#Post1227644

Yet a tool in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it is useless. You can't unscrew a screw with a hammer. You might be able to pry it out, but you know things are going to be all torn to bits.

I will bow out. I promised myself not to engage w/other posters on here again. Folks have chosen to debate unfairly and it isn't about searching for the truth.

My apologies. Carry on.

I wasn't unfair. I was just commenting on your tool analogy. You made a point, I made a counterpoint. I wasn't disagreeing with your point.

See you tomorrow!

Random thought I had:

In this ongoing debate about football guys vs analytics, I think there is something to be said for how good you are at your job. Not necessarily if you're an old-school football guy or an analytics guy.

You can find successes and failures on both sides of the coin. Another complication is knowing what teams use data for and when. A lot of this stuff is kept secret, due to the issue of competitive advantage.

So for example Belichick recently said analytics factored in "less than zero" with the Patriots, but history with Ernie Adams and Kraft's public comments suggest that is not really the case (hard to say whether that's an issue of semantics, dishonesty, the context of the question and answer, etc.)

Browns split with player personnel executives Eliot Wolf, Alonzo Highsmith, Steve Malin

By Nate Ulrich
Beacon Journal
Posted Jan 29, 2020 at 10:28 AM
Updated Jan 29, 2020 at 6:21 PM
link

When the Browns and John Dorsey mutually agreed to part ways Dec. 31 after his two-year run as their general manager, the futures of his top lieutenants were in doubt.

So there is nothing shocking about the Browns parting Wednesday with assistant GM Eliot Wolf, vice president of player personnel Alonzo Highsmith and director of college scouting Steve Malin. People familiar with the moves confirmed them for the Beacon Journal.

ESPN’s Chris Mortensen reported the Browns tried to persuade Wolf to stay.

A source added Wolf probably wouldn’t have been retained in the same role, so he and the Browns decided it was best to split.

New GM Andrew Berry signed a five-year contract with the Browns on Tuesday and is expected to reshape the player personnel department in his vision.

That view of how an NFL team should be run — which includes a strong commitment to analytics — doesn’t mesh with Dorsey’s entire crew.

“I wanted to go in a different direction because my philosophy on football is different from theirs,” Highsmith told ESPN’s Josina Anderson. “I may go to Aruba or go to the Masters. I’m going to take some time to do some fun stuff.

“I may also clean my garage. Who knows? As far as football goes, I’ll just have to wait to see what happens. I love all parts of the game. I’ve never been a title guy. Working and contributing has always been my goal. So I do hope to return to the NFL.”

Wolf is the son of a Dorsey mentor, Hall of Fame GM Ron Wolf. The elder Wolf sounded off Wednesday about the Browns’ use of analytics, calling it “out of control,” in a conversation with Mortensen.


“When something goes wrong, who takes responsibility?” Ron Wolf said. “Their answer: ‘Well, that’s what the data told us.’ What a crock. That’s what got ’em 1-31 [from 2016-17].”

Dorsey hired Eliot Wolf and Highsmith two years ago, and they were officially named to their positions with the Browns on Jan. 10, 2018. Dorsey formally had Malin in place by May 31, 2018.

Wolf, Highsmith and Malin led the Browns’ scouting contingent last week at the Senior Bowl.

Before becoming the GM of the Kansas City Chiefs and later the Browns, Dorsey spent 21 seasons in the front office of the Green Bay Packers. He spent 13 of those seasons with Highsmith and nine with Wolf.

Wolf’s pre-draft evaluation of Baker Mayfield mirrored Dorsey’s and helped guide the Browns toward selecting the quarterback first overall in 2018.

A former NFL running back, Highsmith played a crucial role in the Browns drafting Pro Bowl starter Nick Chubb in the second round (No. 35 overall) in 2018.

Earlier this offseason, Highsmith spoke to the University of Miami about a high-profile job with his alma mater’s football program, but he wasn’t hired.


On agenda

On Wednesday during Super Bowl festivities in Miami, NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell told Cleveland.com he would meet with Browns defensive end Myles Garrett within 60 days to discuss reinstatement from his indefinite suspension.

The league suspended Garrett for at least the last six games of the 2019 season after he ripped the helmet off Mason Rudolph and used it to hit the Pittsburgh Steelers quarterback over the head on Nov. 14 in Cleveland.

Meeting with the commissioner’s office is one of the conditions of Garrett being reinstated.

On Nov. 24, a Browns source told the Beacon Journal the team expected the NFL to reinstate Garrett in time for the start of the 2020 season.

Nate Ulrich can be reached at nulrich@thebeaconjournal.com. Read his Browns coverage at www.beaconjournal.com/browns.

"Well, that's what the data told us"

I can't believe anyone would say something like the above quote and use it as an excuse for screwing up. Just a guess, but I can think of only one person that might say something like that.

NFL fans have to laughing like hell at what the Browns have once again become and the lame, canned excuses Haslam and his numbers boys plan to use when their analytics fail them.

One serious concern I have..will the Browns locker room buy into another attempt at Moneyball?

Many of our players have already lived through Depodesta's first attempt at Moneyball...a 2 season trial run that produced 1 win. I seriously doubt there is one player in the Browns locker room that expects Moneyball 2.0 to work.

How many of our players that know what farce Moneyball is ARE GOING WANT OUT OF CLEVELAND, ASAP.

Excellent news!

Anyone believe that Myles Garrett is going to buy into the Moneyball 2.0 scheme?

After experiencing Moneyball 1.0 at it's worst, 0-16 in 2017...I have my doubts that Myles is planning on buying a new house in the Cleveland area.

The Browns can franchise him or do anything they want to try to keep Myles in Cleveland...but Haslam and Depodesta cannot make Myles put out for a loser.

Bitonio is already on record about playing for a loser...he expects Haslam to backup his talk with wins on the field.

Odell Beckham is going want out now, not wanting to play his career for a loser like Haslam and Depodesta.

No doubt, THE PRESSURE IS ON...LIKE NEVER BEFORE...Depodesta and Haslam must produce wins on the field that lead to the Browns into the playoffs in 2020.

Failure to win this year will set the franchise back 10 yrs or until someone forces the Haslams to return to Tenn.

Isn't it obvious Berry wants his own people in he is running the show regarding Personnel department for the Browns.

Moneyball guys...lol that actually is hilarious. We have shared income in the NFL there is a large factor regarding MLB compared with the NFL the only way a small market team in baseball can survive is play MONEY BALL!!! That simply doesn't apply to the NFL.

From my understanding DePodesta in the first draft was hired not too long prior so he took the stance of standing back and observing the process.

Even after the draft he stayed away from Berea for the most part not to create any conflict with the football people.

I'm sure he provided whatever analytics were desired by the football people.

Its also obvious Depo simply didn't get the final decision in a lot of big decisions.

I think this final REBOOT was not created by Depo but he is ready to take over as the top guy his observation era is over and he is ACTIMG on our behalf. I see him looking to Hire FOOTBALL People who will put their mark on the team - I see Depo hiring and stepping back to let Ski and Berry do their thing.

Is Depo making analytics on asst. coaches? Yes, but he is leaving the hiring up to Ski. Same thing with the draft we do have the work by Wolf and Zo that was pretty much completed for the draft and this is the property of the Browns made available to Berry.

Berry is familiar with the current Draft possibilities and FA out there as he is leaving a Personnel role from the Eagles.

Moneyball
Analytics...I'm sure Kyle Shanahan uses them we know the Chiefs do. As it was noted its time to "ADAPT" to the future of this game and that has analytics in there. BTW used by coaches for years...so why not get the best Analytic guy in Sports...We did and this is the first year he was put in control of our Future.

jmho

Spin away...

How about Depodesta and Haslam backing up their mouths with some wins?

I'm sorry, but Depodesta and Haslam have a record they cannot run away from...they are both losers!

You tell 'em, mac!

Breath Mac ... i get it ... really, i do ... but lets give them a chance before we doom ourselves to hell ... it don’t look promising but there’s plenty of talent on this roster ... get yourself out of purgatory and take a few deep breaths ... odds aren’t in our favor but you never know and i highly doubt its as bas as your making it out to be ...

For now we gots the talent ...

They had this to say...

Link










I know. It's a gas, isn't it?

Myles is intelligent, so he'll probably get along great with the Ivy Leaguers. Plus, Berry helped draft him.

Berry also helped draft Bitonio and helped bring in Zeitler who Bitonio loved playing with, and he was a bit peeved when Dorsey got rid of him.

Who knows what Odell will think, but I doubt he was a big fan of the mess last year. He's got his buddy, Jarvis around. If we win, he'll probably like things just fine. If we lose, nobody will like it.

Njoku and Higgins are probably ecstatic about the moves.

It's the NFL. The pressure is always on. Hopefully this group can channel it instead of springing leaks and spraying all over.

Some people ask for help under pressure, others push everyone else away. The latter didn't work so well.

It's not just a team sport on the field. It takes the whole organization working together all the time.

Simply amazing!

I’ll say one thing bro ...

Ignorance sure is bliss ...

I don't have to like it and I'm not going to pretend that 1-31, didn't happen, thanks to the same guys who are once again in charge of the Browns front office.

Haslam and Depodesta, they are exactly what their record says they are!...losers.

How is Stefanski going to sell his locker room on another Moneyball plan when the first Moneyball plan produced a 1-31 record?

It's really gonna be tough to convince the veterans of Moneyball 1.0 that suddenly Depodesta knows what he is doing, implementing Moneyball 2.0...

The next move I expect from Depodesta...fire some or all of the football scouts...

Don't forget to blame Depo for Cancer, MS, Heart disease, climate change, and serial killers while your at it

Breath bro ... like i said i get it ... i really do ....

The 1 - 31 was totally different Mac for a few reasons ....

1. Depo was just coming from baseball .... he now has 4 years of experience and has a much better feel for things .... he’s still a babe in the woods but he still has 4 years under his belt ...

2. Same with Andy .... he was literally a pup when he first came here from Indi ... he now has 4 more years of experience also witch is REALLY HUGE for him .... IMO he still needs more experience but that don’t mean he shouldn’t be much better than his first time around ...

As usual things are extremes on here ... your IGNORING many FACTS just like the menZas your arguing with that think Wolf leaving is not a direct indictment on our org and what he thinks of the direction its headed ... there not crapping all over a HOF GM .... ...

Breath Mac breath ...

Analytics has a place in the game, though I don't believe it is the end all-be all of success in the NFL.

Analytics can, for example, paint a picture of the physical traits most likely to succeed at every position on the field. It cannot provide for the dynamic exceptions, though. It is a data pile, used to predict outcomes, and thus is a tool, but not the solution.

Analytics can be used to help predict opponents plays/possibilities on the field based on their tendencies, but there also has to be room for the human intuition aspect of the game. For example, the data says that on 3rd and 2, they load the box to stop the run. Does that mean that we give up on the run in those situations? Of course not. Analytics can offer a perspective on what will happen, but if it was a perfect tool, teams would load up on data and have computers calling plays. (and picking players)

It does not hurt to have additional information ..... as long as it doesn't overrule the talent and experience of those calling plays and picking players.

Preferably the guys that helped convince Dorsey that Corbett was the LT for us.

Unless it was the same dude that told him to take Chubb with our next pick ... I’ll make that trade at those draft spots all day long ...

I don't think it will over rule anything. It will simply help the people making the picks or calling the plays be more informed.

It's a tool just as video tape is a tool.

I'm much more concerned with a scout's ability to evaluate OL right now. We already have Chubb. I'm worried about missing on a lineman in the first half of the draft a lot more than missing on a backup RB in the latter half of the draft.

Plus, Corbett played at Nevada and Chubb played at Georgia, so I am fairly confident they had different area scouts as their primaries.

Edit- hope that doesn't come across to harsh towards you, Diam. It's just been a little while since we hit on Bitonio and there have been many misses on the OL in the draft. I'm a little stressed regardless of who we have doing the picking.

I also do not know who Robert Stalnaker is, but there's one person who popped in my mind both times I read his feed: Sashi Brown

If not Sashi then somebody aligned with Sashi. DePo? somebody they hired and then was fired and now has too much free time?

Seriously.. read through the account. It's dedicated almost entirely to trashing everybody before, during, and after Sashi's tenure here.. everybody except Sashi himself, Andrew Berry, and the analytics crew (I don't think Andrew Berry has the time for this.)

That is almost the singular focus of that account, and the way the stats are compiled is more advanced than what you'd expect from a typical fan. It's heavy on analytics and stuff from inside the Browns front office is passed off as fact.

That account just absolutely rips Dorsey, Farmer, Kitchens, and gives overly effusive praise to moves made or recommended by Sashi and crew.

Me thinking it is a (former?) insider is just an inkling, but that account does not come off as a typical fan. At least not any that I've seen.

Then there's this gem...

Dumb Tweet

While I would NEVER suggest that an NFL team, especially ours, take this approach..... the guy ain't really wrong.


Aside from that, accounts like the one in question are likely absolutely nobody with no actual affiliation and was probably created as a troll account to generate clicks/re-tweets/whatevs.

Lol yeah, I saw that.

For anyone who can't see the tweet:


For anyone who thinks you can't rely too much on numbers, read the above and then tell us you feel the same way.

The problem is, those ESPN talking heads aren't all that great at what they do. PFF's stuff is a lot better, but they are only grading what happens on the field and not the influence of coaching, scheme, projecting future talent, etc. So it's useful, but limited. And none of this takes into account combine interviews, medical stuff, character concerns or any of that.

And it could be a troll account (maybe someone from here??) but my hunch is it is someone with a little more familiarity than that.

Just saying, it wouldn't be that hard for someone 'in the know' to create a burner email and get on a VPN. Players and team executives have already gotten busted for this before (Durant comes to mind).. I'm sure many more are doing a similar thing and taking at least basic steps to conceal their identity.

My point was simply that there are guys here on this site doing mock drafts year in and year out that do as well or better than many of the so-called professionals, and they do it with nothing but whatever junk information they find on the internet from the exact people that tweet mentioned.


Regardless of who it is, it smacks of being a troll account... be it affiliated or unaffiliated with anyone connected to Sashi, it seems to be an account with the sole purpose of triggering people that are easily triggered on that topic

To an extent, yes. Though there's always the issue of draftniks picking players in their mock drafts that go to other teams, and then retroactively thinking those players' success with other teams would have necessarily happened with the Browns. I think that is a mistaken assumption in the first place, due to the effect of coaching, scheme, culture, etc etc etc. on a player's development.

Also the Browns have been so bad at this, collectively over the last twenty years, it wouldn't surprise me if draftniks could do better than this team even if you could somehow adjust for the above. However, being better than the worst in the league doesn't mean they'd do better than the good teams, which is really what counts.


Lol, yes, I can go with that.

Whoever it is, that person is *very* dedicated to that topic and, in my opinion, has an obvious agenda.

Mac's evil twin!

J/c:

A quick Google search shows that the guy is an 80 year old, award winning Ivy League professor and philosopher. Graduated from Princeton and works at MIT and Columbia University.

so, Sashi's grandpa?

But the fact is it has.

The fact we have fired guys for not listening to the data says it WILL over rule things.

If your Stefanski, and you disagree with the data on something - guess what, you better go with the data or youll be shown the door. That's the precedent that has now been set.

No, we'll fire guys if they ignore data. I.e, throwing Depo's binders in the trash without even opening them.

Data should influence decisions. It doesn't make them.

Dorsey's insistence on effectively working with one hand tied behind his back was idiotic. Just because you don't know how to use a program, doesn't mean it can't help you if you figure it out. Dorsey was the old dog that refused to learn new tricks.

Data doesn't tell you what to do. You decide what to do with the data. Pretending the data doesn't exist is a road to being Blockbuster video.

Too harsh on me .on here ... *L* ...

I appreciate the concern .... but u don’t have to worry about me being offended ... I’ve been called everything on here ... in one ear and out the other ...

In spirit it would seem.

It might not even be the same Robert Stalnaker, but it seemed like a fairly unusual name and the pieces seemed to fit.

Yeah the Titans suck!

They lost. It didn't work.

I think you were twisting everything he said.

Yet John Lynch and Shanahan are in the SB. Old school Andy Reid is in the SB.

I suppose that didn't work either.

I saw that. Side note: MIT is in Cambridge, MA. Cambridge is a suburb of Boston, which is where Sashi was born. The plot thickens! *play sinister music here*

Seriously though, I don't think the above matters at all. It's probably a different Robert Stalnaker or an alias (my money is on 'alias'). Though maybe it is that 80 year old professor/philosopher from MIT. Why he'd be so dedicated to posting about the Browns and how horrible everybody except Sashi/DePo/Berry has been in the Browns organization is up for debate.

I'll just chalk it up to the account belonging to a very, very dedicated Sashi fan while acknowledging the possibility that it could potentially be someone close to him or one of the analytics crew.

Some reading for you Pit.

https://www.ninersnation.com/2018/3/23/17157552/john-lynch-49ers-analytics-paraag-marathe

Now you're trying to twist his thoughts. No fair, 'Peen.

That's the difference between us. I think analytics is a great tool. I'm just not as thrilled with a staff that has never had experience in their previous positions who rely too heavily on it. I'd say every team uses them.

Yet it appears that some people actually in the loop feel we will rely too heavily on analytics. There's a difference.

What is too heavily on analytics? Letting an algorithm determine signings and draft picks? I don't know the answer. I do know that we have examples in other sports of data being used a ton and it works.

I would say to the extent that a great HC candidate pulls his name and a very highly respected football mind can't be convinced into staying here may be a clue.

I wouldn't want to work for the Haslams either!

(Are you talking about Matt Rhule? Also, we know nothing of the Paton situation other than what reporters have said and both sides have been presented.)

It was publicly stated that the Browns wanted to keep Wolf. It was also publicly stated that Paton withdrew his name from the HC job.

There was certainly something that appeared wrong here and even Wolf's dad talked about it being analytics being too heavily used.

I know, ten division titles and three SB rings means the Wolf family knows nothing.

Carry on......

Whoa. Things are even worse than we know.



If we are pissing of the 81 year old ex-front office people then we are doing something right in my book.

Yeah he just made that up without talking to his son about what's going on here. Andy Reid is 61. How old does a person have to be before we would need to do something to piss them off?

See you're ignoring the fact that his son has told him what's going on here. But that's okay. i know you have an opinion to bolster.

Two drinks!!

Two drinks!!

I'm glad I got sober.... this site would be KILLING me lately.

"Well, that's what the data told us"

I understand that you are having fun at Mac's expense here,but he raise's a valid point.
Just how much respect are these data guys going to get from the players?
They are all raw,green and one of them doesn't even reside in Cleveland.
Oh well,the 2020 Browns will look good on paper.The field will be a whole other story.

"well, that's what my eye told me"

"well, I know what my eyes tell me"

<Scouts taking accountability for every failed player they're responsible for>

I'm having a hard time seeing Andy Reid as Old School.

One thing that surprised me when researching Saleh was how tech savvy he apparently is.

Adapt or die.

Those that have sustained success do it. Those that don't... were with the Browns.

It'll be interesting to see what the Vegas over/under pings us as. I believe last year it was only at 9, despite what preseason expectations were.

The over/under isn't perfect, but then again, biased/emotional fan predictions aren't either.

I'm thinking 7 or 7.5 range. I'd take the under.

Who is in the loop? Wolf? He was in the loop in his day. It's a different day.

Talk to me properly, I'll talk to you properly. I consider you a friend. This is a start.

Exactly. There is no fool proof way. My eyes told me this, the numbers told me this....it takes both in todays football.


You best look at it from every angle possible to make a informed decision. It still doesn't mean it will work. The unknown is always going to be there.

So you don't think he talked to his son about what's going on here? The team wanted Eliot to stay. He refused to. Now how did his dad form his opinion of what's going on here?

I think one would have to admit that his dad based everything he said on what he was told by his son. That's what I meant by in the loop.

I don't doubt that. He was a Dorsey hire. New guys come in and want their guys around. I feel confident that Haslam put in a word, but he can't get any credit.

Elliott couldn't take the position being offered. Plus we don't know Elliots attitude towards Berry, who Haslam wanted to keep.

If Haslam wanted Eliot Wolf, he would be here.

How do you know any of that? What we know is the Browns wanted to keep Eliot. He refused to stay. We know his dad then spoke out about analytics running things here.

We have no clue if he would have been kept at his current position or offered a different position. And you're right, we have no clue how he felt about Berry. But why would the Browns have tried to keep him if he wouldn't get along with Berry? Isn't that the exact opposite of what they said they would be doing with the people retained and hired? Make sure they would get along?

See, this is why we have communication problems surrounding this. I state what we do know. You try to fill in the blanks with pure conjecture.

It simply doesn't make sense that they would try to keep Eliot if they didn't have faith that he and Berry would get along. That doesn't make any sense.

One of the major factors not being discussed is what position were the Browns gonna offer to Wolf to keep him?

If contract are poorly written leaving loop holes like the lack of a specific job title that nails down exactly what the individual is being hired for, the Browns likely offered Wolf a crap job if he wanted to stay...thus forcing him out.

ball boy, perhaps.

I understand that but let me ask you this?

What positive does the team gain by claiming they couldn't keep a guy they wanted to keep? They could have simply let him go or said they couldn't have come to terms with a contract rather than display their desire to keep him if they planned to force him out.

jc....

49ers head coach Kyle Shanahan once made a 32-point presentation on why the Browns should let him out of a job, and it changed his career


Tony Manfred and Scott Davis 44 minutes ago
L

Kyle Shanahan and the San Francisco 49ers might not be in Super Bowl 2020 if Shanahan hadn't went to extreme lengths to get out of a job six years ago.

In 2014, Shanahan was an offensive coordinator with the Cleveland Browns. While Shanahan didn't exactly set the league on fire in his only year in Cleveland, he still built the 21st-ranked passing game in the league with Brian Hoyer at quarterback and an anonymous group of skill-position players. The team went 7-9 — which doesn't sound great, but it was their best record since 2007.

However, Shanahan didn't like the direction of the franchise. CBS's Jason La Canfora reported at the time that Shanahan crafted a 32-point presentation about why he wanted to leave the Browns after the season, and used it to convince head coach Mike Pettine to let him out of his contract.
From Canfora:

"At season's end Shanahan, the lone bright spot on offense, perhaps, presented Pettine with a 32-point presentation on why he wanted to get out of his contract, sources said. And after much deliberation among lawyers and negotiation, in a bizarre precedent, a statement was crafted and Shanahan was a free man. ... Allowing Shanahan to walk sent shockwaves through the building, with such a talented coach allowed to go at a time when the Browns desperately needed to develop a quarterback and with a quarter of the teams in the NFL needing a new offensive coordinator."

Shanahan had two years left on his deal. The team could have fought to keep him or at least asked for compensation from whichever team he signed with, Pettine told the Cleveland Plain Dealer, but they ultimately chose not to.

"It's just very hard to win in the NFL (even) when everybody's into it and they truly want to be there," Pettine said. "And again if you have somebody that just doesn't want to be there, I know it's easy to say, 'Hey he's under contract, hold him to it,' (but now) there's a dark cloud over your coaching offices and I've been a part of that."

Shanahan ended up joining the Atlanta Falcons as an offensive coordinator, which proved crucial to his resume. After a rocky first year in Atlanta, Shanahan helped turn things around big time in 2016. The Falcons went 11-5, scored more points than any team in the league, finished first in offensive DVOA, and Matt Ryan won MVP. They went to the Super Bowl, where they eventually lost to the New England Patriots, notoriously blowing a 28-3 lead.

Even that dramatic loss — during which the Falcons' offense stalled out — had its benefits. The next day, Shanahan became head coach of the 49ers. A month later, at the NFL draft combine, he spoke to Bill Belichick at length about that game and about head-coaching. Belichick had been close with Kyle's father, legendary NFL coach Mike Shanahan.
Their relationship paid off down the line, as when the Patriots decided to trade Jimmy Garoppolo, Belichick called Shanahan and offered the young quarterback for just a second-round pick. The 49ers landed their franchise QB.

Shanahan reflected on his presentation in 2017 before the Super Bowl, saying it wasn't a PowerPoint presentation, but a list of items he gave to Pettine.

"It wasn't a Power Point presentation,'' Shanahan said (via Cleveland.com). "It was all on paper. I gave a number of points — 32 of them, which you guys were accurate on. I gave them to the head coach.

"I told him he could do whatever he wanted with those, whether he gave them to the owner or the general manager. I'm sure that he did. I just wanted to be up front about it. I had some specific reasons I didn't think it was going in the right direction, why it wasn't the best place for me and my family."

Shanahan also called it one of the hardest decisions of his life.

"It was one of the hardest decisions I had to make in my life, so it's not like it was an easy decision. There were a lot of things that my wife and I really loved about Cleveland," Shanahan said.

"But I also have a family to think about, I have a career to think about and that's really what it came down to. That's why I was open with those guys about it and the fact that they understood and let me move on is something that I really appreciate all of them for."

Haslam seems to react to public opinion, always attempting to paint himself as this good guy.

The first media reports about Wolf and Highsmith simply said they were fired. Then came the stories about the Browns trying to keep Eliot. Haslam does know who Eliots dad is and IMO, was doing his best to get ahead of the story that the Browns simply fired Eliot...that was not a good look and Haslam knew he was setting himself up for some criticism from well respected football people, which is exactly what happened.

Did his son also tell him to hate analytically driven baseball teams?

Mac, I actually agree with you here. Mutually parted ways is a corporate euphemism for fired. Offering someone a lower position knowing they won't accept it is one way to get out of situation (see also John Dorsey).

On that note, it's not surprising his dad was upset and lashed out.

Wolf's dad simply said what a majority of football fans and coaches already know...that the Browns are a mess again because they have an owner who has no business owning a NFL franchise.

Jimmy Haslam is what his record says he is...A LOSER.

I don't know, well, nobody knows, but my thinking is, (appearances are/were) They didn't so much whiff on Qb talent in mind, and say Kizer was better than the others,) but what more likely happened>> where they whiffed,
is they had numbers suggesting Qb. X, would be available at pick Y< so they waited, and when someone else took QB, X, they were stuck, and ended up taking Kizer on Day 2 as a consolation prize,
Which for various reasons resulted in known results.

Haslam is and will always be the wild card.

A mess? The Browns haven't even played a down of football yet!

Last year was certainly a mess though.

Only until he isn't. Records change.

It could take awhile. I'm stuck here for the ride. Might as well try to enjoy it.

Ok, probably so, but he didn't.

Tell me, what did Elliott Wolf do for the team?


I am not knocking the guy. I just don't know, you talk like you do. What did he do?

If investing a billion or so in something and having it grow 50% in value makes you a loser, where do I sign up?

That is the loser I like....Damn, I only improved 40-50%..LOL

I would like to know what a "football guy" is?

Are the Wolfs "football guys"?

Neither played college football from what i can tell.

Right now he has the worst winning % of any owner, in any sport, in modern history.

Yea Jimma!

That has kind of been my point all along. What defines football guy? Did you have to play the game past high school? Work in it for 25 years? Simply be employed by a team?

To determine if an individual is "qualified" to perform a specific job, how much previous EXPERIENCE the individual has doing that job or work related to the job becomes critical.

Some things cannot be learned by reading a book..some things cannot be learned without investing the time and effort needed to be good at a job.

Experience does matter...

That can be true. But no amount of experience can make something out of somebody that they just don't have natural ability and talent for. Sometimes raw, inexperienced talent is a better solution than the long in the tooth experience that is mediocre or worse.

I'm just hoping that Stefanski can lead all these pieces - because that is that start, middle and end of it. A lot like the QB - if the QB is not up to the job, it makes it almost impossible to succeed. Trent Dilfer and one or two other really below average QB's are the absolute exceptions. With the F.O & coaching staff - it is all going to take Stefanski to be able to lead and bring out the best in all of the coaching staff. Even with Berry and the way we build the roster moving forward - clearly communicating the goals of the team in a constructive way would help the process.

On the other hand, I work with a gal who has been doing what she's doing for 30 years and she let's you know it EVERY day. She is absolutely terrible at the job. I mean horrifyingly bad.

Monken was an experienced OC, but failed with the Browns. Haley was an experienced OC, and former head coach, who failed with the Browns. Hue was a former HC with an 8 - 8 record, who failed with the Browns. Williams was an experienced DC coordinator and former HC, who succeeded with the Browns, but the experienced GM did not want, in spite of his Williams' experience and winning record with the Browns.

This tweet came across my feed and it feels relevant:

She sounds like Hue.

Experience matters. It also matters how you use the experience.

If you use it to change and get better, it's a good thing.

If you point at it and say, "this is the way I've always done it," it's a bad thing.

A quick search and...

Andrew Berry has been in and around football for 14+ years. In the NFL since 2009

Kevin Stefanski has been in and around football for 19+ years. Coaching in the NFL since 2006.

They are 32 and 37 years old, respectively.

I believe the men we now have in place are quite capable of doing a good job and bring us a winner. I also believe they need to be left alone to do the job without any interference from above. It would be novel if that were allowed to happen.

How does that make any difference in the fact that we have been the franchise with the worst record in football since he bought the team? It doesn't.

That's like saying someone bought gold cheap and the price went up. They had nothing to do with that. The value of every NFL franchises goes up.

But some peoplpe equate money with success and not winning with success as we see here.

Simply being qualified with experience in a particular field doesn't mean that individual is guaranteed success...but it is where 99% of employers begin when trying to find the right people to insure success.

That's because most people in the insurance business (large scale) don't last very long. Only sociopaths lack empathy enough to stick around.

Success is never ensured at hiring. It's all about what everyone involved does after. Someone can be the greatest person ever at some particular thing, but they can't do everything. If everyone else in the organization can't work with them, things aren't going to work out.

As long as everyone involved can do their job well enough, and they do it together, it can work out.

Of course it does Mac. I do agree 100%

Forfive me, I didn't go back to read in what context you are talking, I assume DePodesta.

The thing is that he has years of experience at what he does. He's not so much a football guy. He is employed by a football team to provide analytic information. He isn't calling the shots. That is what I am trying to tell you in a calm manner. He isn't. The things he brings to the team are tools for our decision makers to use to make the best decisions possible.

It's still up to Berry and the coach to make the decisions. I don't know how else to say that to you.

LOL...it was just a comment on a comment.


Go away.

We both know that's not going to happen. I'm just more willing to see there's two sides to this coin and somehow that bothers people. Oh well.

Peen...

I'm glad to hear someone finally admit that Depodesta isn't much of a football guy...

That is the main problem I have with Depo..he has managed to con so many into thinking he has some miracle method of picking player talent. I believe he tries like hell to sell himself as something he isn't...he isn't much of a football guy.

Can anyone tell us what Depodesta does to improve player talent?

I'll have more to say later...got to go for now.

I can answer that one. He does NOTHING, because that's not his job no matter how much you try claim it is. I'm waiting for you to blame Chris Stanley because we went 1-31 over 2 seasons.

Depodesta is one of the only three people that have to report to Haslam on a weekly basis. The other two are the HC and GM. People need to stop pretending his input is somehow not as important. If it weren't he wouldn't be on that same level.

Of course his input is important, but its the amount of influence he will exert is where all the wacky claims come in.

He is a professional Sports executive, I'm sure he has meetings with Haslam about things other than roster composition.

Depodesta's job is to gather data. It is important. The GM, HC, and Haslam (and others) choose how to act on it.



link

He definitely does. His role from the beginning was to look at and improve the organization as whole and see how the different aspects of it can better compliment each other, like nutrition, sports medicine, etc.. IIRC a couple seasons ago under Hue they were talking about data informing their decisions on recuperation times for minor injuries.

j/c

It's hilarious how hard people are trying to play down that Depo is one of only three people that meet with Haslam weekly, just as the HC and GM do,then pretend like his voice doesn't carry the same weight.

Because it's absolute nonsense. The head janitor from the facility might report to him as well. Is he helping with the next draft? Does he have as much power as Berry?? He must, by your definition his voice "carries the same weight".

No one on this board has any clue as the what DePodesta does on a daily basis, or what he reports, to whom, and when.

No one.

All this [censored] about his power level and influence is just a wild fabrication in the minds of people on this board.

YOU DON’T KNOW. STOP ACTING LIKE YOU DO.

It was publicly stated that all three men would report to Haslam every week. It was reported at the same time. I didn't see the head janitor mentioned. Did you? Yeah, Haslam made it clear that all three reported directly to him. Nobody else.

Yet what are the fans reactions? "Well that doesn't mean anything and Haslam isn't going to be micromanaging anymore."

Ignoring the obvious doesn't change anything.

He also didn't say that those three were the ONLY ones reporting to him every week.

Yet he emphasized those three. It seems so many wish to simply dismiss that. Haslam put them on equal footing when he did that. I suppose he could have said that those three at the top rung of the structure would all meet with him on a weekly basis and it simply doesn't mean anything. I mean that's why they make public statements. Because they're not supposed to mean anything.

Do they all meet with Haslam about the same things ? Or does Depo meet about concessions, about maintenance issues, about contracts, about contractor issues, about the rent Baker pays for living in the stadium All these are issues that Depo has prior experience in.

Then Berry meets with scouting reports, about the Big Board and draft rankings, as well as interviews with coach staff.

Then Stephanski meets with Haslam about team roster needs, health of players, and progress on offensive and defensive setups. All 3 reporting to Haslam over their areas of expertise.

They all meet with him because they all have a set of responsibilities deemed important to the success of the organization.

You keep beating some drum that they have equal footing and equal power.

So, does everybody that meets with JH have equal power?

We get it. You want to pound it into everyone's head that DePo has too much say, Haslam is too nosy and this is some extreme deviant "structure". Since none of us here are privy to what goes on behind closed doors, it's all conjecture.

gm...Depo has been in the draft room every year since 2016.
...he fired the "football scouts"
...set the draft strategy to get more bites of the apple, but more bites of apple are useless if can't judge talent. Of the 14 picks, 3 have turned out to be decent football players.

The 2016 draft room was dominated with analytics types running the show.

I believe the bottom line on Depodesta...he has been allowed by Haslam to have too much control over the franchise and has "never" been held responsible or accountable for anything he has done.

In Haslam's eyes, Depodesta can do no wrong...matter of fact, Haslam promotes and rewards Depo for brown nosing his way to more control over the franchise.

I believe most fans just want someone who actually knows football, to take control and finish building what was started two years ago.

I don't want to see this team torn down so Depodesta can play Moneyball 2.0. Over half the work has been done for the Moneyballers, surely this group can finish the work.

...but I have zero confidence in Haslam and Depodesta.

BTW, if Depodesta did nothing, the team and front office would benefit greatly.

Actually that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying there's a reason that it was announced at the same time that all three men would meet with Haslam on a weekly basis.

What I find amazing in all of this is that people are saying that we will be more analytics based but are trying to dismiss that the top analytics guy in the organization will meet with the owner every week just like the HC and GM will.

If in fact we are going to a more analytics based way of doing things, it actually makes perfect sense to conclude that Depo will have a lot of say in the process. Those two things are not in conflict with each other.



Once again you are spouting gibberish that I have never said. It has been pointed out in that past however that Haslam has asked employees about each other which in the end has tended to pit them against each other. Let's all hope he's learned his lesson.

Some conjecture makes sense and some not so much.

Can you give some conjecture that makes sense that would indicate why we would be moving to a more analytics based structure and somehow our top analytics guy wouldn't be an extremely important cog in the wheel?

I mean before you go making more baseless accusations about things I never said.

No one has claimed he isn't important. That's another of your baseless claims.

He gathers data and tries to improve processes (often involved in gathering data.) He's not picking players. He's been in the draft room to provide and gather data. Interviewing a coach/GM is a data gathering process, of course he is involved. He doesn't have and has never had the final say in picking people. Did Haslam listen to his input this time? Yes. Has he always listened to him in the past? No. (Hue, Freddie)

Looking at the two teams in Super Bowl today...I wonder how much they rely on "analytics"

In Cleveland, Depodesta is listed as the #3 man in the franchise, behind the owners. Depodesta wants to be the GM and in many respects, he already has more power over the franchise than the guy just hired to be the GM, Berry.

Having the analytics guy with 4 yrs of NFL experience studing NFL numbers, sitting in on coaching hires and front office hires...I do believe Depo is more than an analytics guy.

Knowing everything I know about Shanahan and Saleh, I'd bet they're pretty progressive. Depo isn't just involved in analytics, and analytics are more than what you seem to think they are, though. Analytics aren't the only processes that Depo is trying to improve. Constant improvement is analytical, even if not labeled analytics.

Depo is listed between Haslam, the GM, and the HC. He provides info to and gathers data from all of them.

He doesn't want to be GM. If he wanted to be GM, he'd have told his alleged best buddy (according to some), Jimmy, to hire him for the job. He likes his current job just fine, which he explains here:

link

A lot.



Completely incorrect.

Then can you explain what the hell it is we're debating about?

All I have been saying is that Dpodesta now has a seat at the head table. One of the three that report directly to Haslam on a weekly basis. That he is one of the top voices in Haslam's ear. That analytics will be given more leverage in the decision making process. As such, Depodesta has that seat at the table.

I mean on one hand people will say that the reason these guys were hired is because they all believe in analytics has great value in a system. That they were hired because everyone can work together as a group. Then as soon as someone says their input is equal, people claim suddenly it isn't.



I know we live in a society where anyone with an opposing or different opinion begin to all be lumped together. But you may wish to consider that I'm not the one who claimed Depodesta is suddenly taking over the team. Nor have I indicated that his duties with the team have changed. What I am saying is that it's a very silly debate to be waging that will rely heavily on analytics while saying the input that Depodesta has in his role isn't magnified.

But people can't on one hand say we are now going to focus on a more analytics based system and on the other hand claim that our top analytics guy won't be given an equal voice at the table.

Or maybe they can but that doesn't make a lot of sense.

That's all you got? Why don't you quote me where I said the things you claim?

Because you can't and all you have in reply is a lazy meme.

All I will say is this:

Depodesta had a say in hiring the HC and in the GM. For anyone to think that he doesn't have a loud voice in this operation is flat out crazy.

I am sure he does, and am glad he does.

I'm waiting to see what the results are first.

I am too. I am still glad he has a voice. His is a voice of support. He isn't the guy making the picks, but I understand your point. He does have input. All three have some degree of ownership.

If they can work together and build a winning product that would be great for all of us that have waited so long. It's just that after going through this for 20 years I'm just a little gun shy at this point.

Looks like Kyle Shanahan relies on them quit a bit, even on gamedays.

https://www.ninersnation.com/2017/12/8/16752494/kyle-shanahan-49ers-analytics-2017

The Chiefs have actually hired an analytics firm to use for player analysis.

https://www.decisionlens.com/news-events...player-analysis

This is pretty much it in a nutshell.

Is that good or bad?

Whether it's good or bad Haslam is the ultimate wild card. It could be good but Haslam will make it bad.

Or it could be bad all on its own.

I cannot stress this enough...alignment without competence means nothing. And alignment was just a fancy catchphrase for Haslam to be able to meddle. He could have gotten rid of Depo and kept Dorsey, Wolf, and Highsmith and stepped aside and let them do their jobs. That would have also been alignment. But Haslam would have probably had to concede some involvement and that was a non starter. So now you have alignment and no experience and an overly involved owner.

As a fan I hope it works. I'm tired of rooting for losers.

I understand. My attitude is one failure doesn't predict the next. Everything is stand alone.

That is your version of alignment. Mine is with what we have today.

What we have today is a first time head coach, first time GM, an analytics guy with enough power to influence football decisions (as witnessed by the recent hires), and the worst (and most meddlesome) owner in all of sports. I'll also add the analytics guy has no track record of success in the NFL.

Did I miss anything? What do you think we have today?

A first time head coach with an extensive career in dealing with players, coaching, coordinating, and play calling.
A GM whose job it was, for 7 years to scout prospects! Then manage a team as president.
A data guy, who no-one on this board knows what he provides for the team.

I’m ok with this.

That's one way to look at it.

You could also say we've got a guy who has usually been right in Depo, and Jimmy finally listened to him and gave him his coach and GM at the same time.

*shrug* We'll see how it goes. I'll try to send positive, but not over confident, energy towards Berea.

Who? Stefanski has a 19 game resume as an OC/play caller. That's hardly extensive. That's not much more experience than Freddie had when he he became head coach.



Umm ... when was Berry a President?



Yep. No one knows, except for the last round.

I'm not here regularly enough, but who's claiming he won't be given an equal voice?

The way I see it, there won't be any one meeting or at least very few where all 3 heads will have "equal" say. I fully expect each of them to have more influence than the others depending on the time of year and where they are in their process.

In the off season during the player acquisition phase I can totally see Berry and DePo having more influence than Stefansky. Because that is when the player analytics are front and center.

During the season I can see Stefansky and DePo having a little more influence than Berry as Berry's role will then be more of player/coach assessment with Stefansky coming up with game plans informed by the data presented from DePo.

Again, I've always seen DePo's role as that of providing information to make informed decisions. Despite mac's insinuations, he doesn't want to be the one making the player decisions.

j/c

I found this video last night that was posted only recently (Jan 2, 2020).

It's pretty long at nearly 40 minutes but it's a really good presentation by DePo about the basic process of what he has been doing, to include challenges they faced when implementing it in Oakland. It really doesn't talk about what they are currently doing with the Browns, but when you listen to the hurdles they had to overcome, I think they are lessons learned for what they are trying to do in Berea.

A couple high lights:

-His presentation doesn't actually start until about the 8 minute mark
-He talks about humility being a key component, a serious humility that it takes to take a step back and ask questions about what they are doing, why they are doing it, and if it can be better
-He talks about the challenge of trying to introduce the concept to the experienced traditional types within the organization and how to bring them on board
-He talks about how analytics isn't going to get it right all the time.

Oh, in the beginning the presenter shows video of hundreds if not thousands of people waiting in line at this conference of MIT types hoping for 5 minutes with among a handful of people, Browns execs hoping to get a job

Yes he was.



Yea right, and I am 7 foot tall, skinny, handsome as hell, and well endowed.




Was he involved in the discussion on the draft strategy.... yes, as were many others. Did he set the strategy..... no more than you or I did.



I know your beliefs are wrong.



Wrong again bro.



Some do I can agree with that. But MOST fans don't care who we hire as long as we WIN. BTW the plan started 4 years ago. not two years ago.



No worries there since Depo is not in charge.




Now you can use the term "I believe most fans" as I agree that most fans have zero confidence in Jimmy.

Depo's job was set up from day one in 2016 so that he reported directly to Jimmy. It's been that way for 4 years, it's not something new for this year.

Funny since we have 4 owners Dee, Jimmy, Whitney, and JW.






Your right he is not just an analytics guy. He is our Chief Strategy Officer.

Found some information that answers the question...How much analytics do the Chiefs and 9ers rely on?..


KANSAS CITY CHIEFS
Coach Andy Reid’s traditional background, having worked under Mike Holmgren and Ron Wolf on his way up, might fool you. He’s progressive, which is reflected in the way the franchise has grown over the last few years. Coming from Philadelphia, perhaps the league’s most analytically inclined franchise over the last two decades, Reid brought Mike Frazier, now the team’s statistical analysis coordinator, from Philly with him. With GM John Dorsey departed, the next scouting boss will inherit three analysts. As one staffer put it, “We’re still 85 percent Atlanta Braves (touch it, smell it, feel it) and 15 percent Oakland Athletics.”


SAN FRANCISCO 49ERS
Chief strategy officer Paraag Marathe is a pioneer in analytics, and the Niners continue to invest in it. Director of football administration Brian Hamptonoversees a four-man staff headlined by football research and development analyst Kwesi Adofo-Mensah. And the team is very advanced in business analytics. Yet Marathe would tell you that, even after all these years, analytics is still largely a supplement to the football side’s traditional methods of running a team. L

j/c...

Analytics at work yesterday!...

Wait, so you're saying he *did* fire the football scouts?

Several Browns scouts high on Carson Wentz were reportedly fired before the draft

by Rob Tornoe, Posted: September 18, 2016

The successful debut of Eagles rookie quarterback Carson Wentz and the loss of starting quarterback Robert Griffin III to injury have combined to flood Browns fans in a wave of buyer's remorse.

After all, the Browns entered the off-season in desperate need of a franchise quarterback, and could have drafted Wentz with the second overall draft pick. But the team's new chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta preferred Jared Goff, and didn't think Wentz was "good enough to be a top 20 quarterback in the NFL."

So when the Rams made it clear they were selecting Goff with the first pick in the draft, the Browns traded away their pick to the Eagles in exchange a number of draft picks in a deal Pro Football Focus initially rated an A for Cleveland and a C+ for Philadelphia.

Now, it seems not everyone who worked for the Browns agreed with DePodesta's assessment of Wentz.

CBS NFL Insider Jason La Canfora reports that the Browns fired six members of their scouting team just three weeks before the draft, even though their contracts were set to expire after the draft.

La Canfora also reports that the scouts that were let go disagreed with the team's newly-empowered analytics department and DePodesta that Goff was a greater pro prospect that Wentz. L

But was it the reason they were let go?

Or was it just a cherry picked fact?

Did they ask to be let go because they didn't want to change the way they scouted to something more analytical?

Did they also pound the table for the guys that didn't meet analytical thresholds and failed miserably here?

Did the players they graded consistently end up getting drafted later than their grades?

I'm pretty sure they didn't get fired just for disagreeing on one player. The way they showed their disagreement? Perhaps.

If you call the guy you work for a nerd and say he didn't draft real football players, he probably won't keep you around.

*shrug*

If numbers guys want to do my taxes or give me financial advice that's fine. When it comes to sports however, I don't trust them to build a winning team. We shall see.

1st off Depo didn't let a single one of them go. 2nd some of them thought Wentz was was going to be a franchise QB, and others didn't . Aligo, Depaul, Hagen, Holland, Kirkland, and Ritcher all had contracts that were expiring after the draft anyway. I know a couple of them, and I gaurante you Depo didn't fire them.

From Pro Football Talk...

The easier course for the Browns would have been to keep the scouts on the payroll but give them little or nothing to do for the next three weeks, perhaps even telling them to stay home with pay.

Which, in fairness to the Browns, may be as a practical matter what they’ve done. From Cleveland’s perspective, the organization had a large staff of scouts, the team wanted to streamline the operations going forward, and the Browns wanted to be candid and honest with the departing scouts and give scouts whose contracts were expiring after the draft a chance to pursue new jobs.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...-browns-scouts/

And from La Canfora who wildly speculates the scouts were fired because they were pro-Wentz...

and, with their contracts set to expire after the draft, they were going to be let go in 2016 as part of downsizing anyway.

NOTE THE DATE OF ARTICLE...in 2016, the individual you claim made the comment above, was helping the Chiefs build a Super Bowl team.


Report: Browns fired scouts who favored Carson Wentz before draft

The Browns reportedly fired several scouts prior to April’s NFL draft because they were high on quarterback Carson Wentz.

SEP 19, 2016
SI WIRE L

The Browns fired several scouts prior to April’s NFL draft because they were high on quarterback Carson Wentz, CBS Sports’ Jason La Canfora reports.

Cleveland had the No. 2 pick in the draft, but traded it to the Eagles along with a fourth-rounder in exchange for the No. 8, No. 77 and No. 100 picks, along with future first and second-rounders. Then, they turned around and traded the eighth selection to Tennessee, and chose wideout Corey Coleman at No. 15.

Philadelphia, meanwhile, selected Wentz at No. 2.

While the team’s chief strategy officer said in July that the Browns didn’t see Wentz as one of the top 20 quarterbacks in the league, La Canfora reports that some of the more experienced scouts in the organization preferred Wentz over Goff, who eventually went No. 1. It was this schism in the organization that caused the scouts to be released before their contracts expired after the draft.

It was curious timing for a firing, and now we know why it happened.

– Kenny Ducey

I don't have any inside knowledge since I don't work for the Browns, but it seems like Depo has a lot of indirect power and influence on what the FO does. He may not do the actual hiring and firing but I'm sure he makes suggestions.

He absolutely makes suggestions. We know this because last year his recommendation was Stefanski instead of Freddie.

He makes suggestions based on the information he has, and they are not always taken by the decision makers. Of note, that directly infers that he is NOT one of the decision makers.

And at least for me, that's what I've been trying to say. The hires made favor an analytical system which Depo is the most experienced at of the entire group. The HC was actually the same guy he preferred last year.

The job he does I don't fell is any different than it was before. But the structure and the hires made certainly seem to indicate his influence and power will be far greater than before. When looking at the HC and GM hirings, it has been so far.

Also... um, that's his job. Like, his entire job... the whole point of his employment with the Browns.

They were let go because the scouting was over. The scouts are sitting in the draft room. This is the same crap that was posted a few years ago. It's all rehash.

There is nothing new here.

citizen...Depodesta is listed as the chief strategy officer and is the #2 or #3 member of the Browns staff, just behind the owners according to one source and on the Browns website he is listed behind the owners and Berry.

Depodesta, now has 4 yrs of experience in the NFL. He has the power to hire and fire personnel as well as setting the Browns draft strategy. He established the guidelines as to how the franchise operates...Depo is Haslam's favorite guy in the front office, imo.

The Cleveland Browns are Depodesta's EXPERIMENT, the first NFL team to use his Baseball Moneyball strategy based on "analytics", to build the Browns into a Super Bowl winner.

The Brown would be better off if Depo was allowed to return to San Diego.

100% FALSE..and you know it peen!

I meant to type aren't sitting in on the draft. The only scout I know we have released was the head of college scouting. The scouts are still here. We didn't need that other guy here. I am sure Berry will fill that role the remainder of the year.

Again, this is nothing more than another Harvard Boys thread. You have posted up some of the same info that you used 2 years ago.

Kyle Juszczyk is from Harvard too. But he's a FB so he doesn't count.

Sorry man, I have scrolled back to see if I could pick out the name.

I don't know what you are talking about.

He is the FB of the 49'ers who had a very good performance in the SB yesterday.

Super Bowl 2020: 49ers' Kyle Juszczyk brings NFL fullbacks back from brink of extinction

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nf...ive/4621263002/

Just messing with your view of the FB position..... kinda

Ok....I was talking about scouts. I wasn't sure what you were talking about.


Cool, he brought the position back from near dead.

I am good if you get the right guy. The position was near dead for a reason. It turned to a position where a thick neck was all that was needed. They became blockers, and not as good as guards.

Maybe to refine my position, it isn't the position I dislike, somebody is going to play it if you have 2 backs in the game. It was the type of 1 dimensional players who took over the position. Maybe that makes more sense. Heck, Jim Brown was a Fullback....but now he would be called a tailback.

I want production above simply being a guy with a meathead the size of a picnic ham, blocking.

I thought both Hunt and Chubb did a nice job of lead blocking for each other. I am good with either one of those guys being the fullback. If gaining 1-2 yards is the deal and you want blocking, Ditka had it right, put the Fridge back there. Marty with Pizzouli.

I can't say I disagree with you opinion. I would certainly want a FB who can do more than simply lead block on short yardage situations.

Not only short yardage. If the guy you have does little other than block and maybe catch a few swing passes, or carry the ball 2 times a game, he leads backers to the hole.

Sure, give me Mike Alstott. That is a fullback. Rathman was good, but more as a receiver.

My attitude is this....you have 5 lineman and 1 QB. You have 5 other attack positions. Why not have an actual 5 on the field? If one of them is there to block, and doesn't fool anybody to think otherwise......why?

You may wish to check into Kyle Juszczyk. He's exactly the type of FB I think you are describing. And the first player signed after Stefanski was named HC was a FB. Let's hope he's everything you're wanting because it certainly appears we will have a FB on the roster.

I mostly agree with you. I think a fullback should be a threat to carry and even catch the ball, even if it's a low threat. In today's NFL, he should offer a decent amount of versatility.

That said, I think all of that versatility is wasted if he can't block.

And the percentage of it the Browns will use? I’ll save you the trouble of typing, you don’t know.

It's wasted if you don't use it. I understand the blocking. That is why I have said if blocking is all they are good for, put a better blocker back there.

CLEVELAND BROWNS
While the assumption is that the Browns let the numbers drive decisions, the message coming from the building has consistently been that the team is merely investing in analytics at a high level to try and ascertain their value. With Sashi Brown as football czar, director of player personnel Ken Kovash (an analyst poached from Dallas a few years back) carrying the same title as scouting chief Andrew Berry, and the largest analytics staff in NFL, there’s no question that a commitment has been made. Now, they’re trying to figure out where analytics lines up with scouting and coaching. There have been examples of the team deviating from the models and numbers tell them to do, as recently as in this year’s draft (the analytics side liked Mitch Trubisky over Myles Garrett).

This article was written in Jun. 2017, yet it failed to mention Depodesta and how much he was involved in the draft process. Maybe SI didn't want to look as if they were piling on the Browns commitment to analytics and how much Depodesta and his analytics were driving the Bus.

An example might be the analytics surrounding the Mitch Trubusky vs Myles Garrett decision. The analytics side was very secretive about their deliberations unwilling to share information with their HC, about who they might draft.

Hue Jackson was so desperate to head off a disastrous draft pick of Trubisky by the analytics guys that Hue taped pictures of Garrett on the walls of Haslam's office before the draft.

Spin it any way you want Mac, but Myles was drafted, not Trubisky. For people wondering why Hue got fired, aside from trying to trade for his own QB ( McCaron ), having a dismal record ( 1-31 ), he also broke into and vandalized the owner's office ...

All you have done is prove that the Browns do look at needs in the draft process.

Your argument hinges on a news outlet NOT wanting to pile on the Browns?

Dude....

When are successful teams ever not secretive about their draft plans?

When is Hue ever secretive? Telling Hue something was generally the same as telling the entire media-following world something.

If someone fell in love with a QB and thought we were going to take him, they may have offered a deal we couldn't refuse. We might have still got Myles and more. Unfortunately, Hue isn't that great at planning and grand strategy.

Hue gets an idea in his head and fixates on it to the detriment of everything else.

memp, bull, oobs 32...all of you, stop being LAZY...

All of you are free to look up everything I said, but don't give your LAZY BULL CRAP, questioning what I post without you doing your own homework.

The Moneyballers were keeping Hue in the dark about whether they would pick Garrett or Trubiski. That in itself was total BS by Sashi and Depo.

Since Hue was not going to be let in on who they were drafting, Hue took it upon himself to wallpaper Haslam's office with pictures of Garrett. Something else that I read about was a final sitdown meeting Hue had with Haslam, either the day of the draft or the day before the draft.

Hue told Haslam he would NOT support Trubisky if the Moneyballers picked him over Garrett. I'm not sure if Hue's threat had any influence over the pick of Garrett instead of Trubiski, BUT IT WORKED out the way Hue wanted.

This situation can be looked at as an indicator of just how much of a split Haslam had created by allowing the Moneyball boys so much control over the franchise...without the input of the HC.

It’s almost like Hue Jackson couldn’t be trusted with sensitive information. . .

Right? I mean, telling the owner that you would refuse to support your QB in private or in public is the epitome of professionalism. With feelings that strong along with whoever Hue showed himself to be behind the doors of Berea, no kidding he couldn't be trusted lol

No. This situation can be looked at as an indicator of just how much Hue's ego and attitude got him a reputation of someone no one could respect or wanted to work with.

That famous scene between Hue, Haley, and Gregg? Those looks were all based on who Hue presented himself to be, not due to any sweet nothings whispered in their ears by Jimmy

He couldn't. They were probably jerking him around. "Hey Hue, our numbers came up with this guard at Boise State, what do you think about taking him #1?"

You laugh, but that's no further a stretch than some of the stuff mac has posted in this thread. You might give him ideas.

Yet Hue Jackson remained on as HC for a year and a half after Garrett was drafted. Doesn't anyone find it odd that Haslam kept a HC nobody liked or trusted for another season and a half after Garrett was drafted if the theory nobody trusted Hue or wanted to work with him is true?

It was heavily reported that Haslam was a big big fan of Hue. Hired him over the protests of the brain trust.

So the contention of some is that Haslam chose to keep a dysfunctional group together for a year and a half after some huge debacle in the 2017 draft?

I mean it is Haslam so anything is possible. However, it sounds far more logical to conclude this entire situation was overblown than anything else.

I mean not everything in life is a conspiracy theory.

Andrew Berry just commented in his pressure about that "time" in Cleveland - and I am paraphrasing " the one thing I would like to bring back or keep was the collaboration we had from then"

j/c...

Stefanski would be crazy not to want OBJ and Kareem. With the right scheme and the players we currently have we could have a top 5 O next year.

That certainly doesn't sound like the dysfunction some seem to describe.

It depends on what time he is referring back to, Sashi Brown's time or John Dorsey's time or both.

U think Sashi and Hue got along at some point ... ...

I don't think so. I also don't think John Dorsey was very collaborative. My guess is that Andrew Berry was just trying to be nice and answer the question without ruffling feathers.

Or he was referring to the FO collaboration when it was Sashi, DePo, Berry & scouts.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
And then there was Hue Jackson and Mike Silver's collaboration.

I doubt Berry would want to open that can of worms at his introductory press conference.

That can should be buried Deep in the depths of the ocean .... *L* ....

I don't think he is opening a can of worms by referring to his preferred collaboration the last time around. I cannot imagine him meaning what he saw between Depo/Analytics Dept. and Dorsey/Scouts & Kitchens and perhaps a reason why he moved on. That was oil and water. What else would be referring to is my question.

Hue was the problem re: collaboration. Not anyone else.

Well of course it was.......

Stop with that crap.Did you not learn anything last year?
New coaches,new schemes,new players.Be happy if the Browns are not a bottom 5 O.

We also need good QB play and play calling...

I guess it all depends on the motive behind Jimmy's contribution to the dysfunction is. I mean, if we're supposed to believe that he went running around purposefully pitting different departments against each other, and pitting subordinates against their superiors... then yeah, it's totally likely he would have kept Hue around in spite of an obvious failing working relationship.

I'm absolutely willing to side with you about the entire situation being over blown, if that reason is applied across the board.

Looking at how analytics is used by the other teams around the NFL, the Vikings may have had the best setup...


MINNESOTA VIKINGS
Ownership is said to be very into analytics, and GM Rick Spielman leans on data in making big personnel decisions. Coach Mike Zimmer, on the other hand, is known to be older school in how he approaches his job. The franchise’s analytics director, Scott Kuhn, also works as a pro scout for the team.


When Stefanski was with the Vikings, their analytics guy was also a member of the "Pro Scouting team"...

...the information from the Vikings analytics/pro scouting guy then goes to the Vikings GM, Rick Spielman.

Maybe Stefanski can setup the same structure here in Cleveland.

This is why many people question the run-heavy approach Stefanski ran in Minnesota last year....it was mandated by Zimmer when Stefanski took on the role of OC. "Run heavy" meaning 50.5% of the pass calls but that was third highest in the NFL from what I saw.

I'm curious to see what Stefanski does here in Cleveland. I hope it is not confined to simply running more or passing more. I hope each game plan is designed to target the defenses weaknesses based on what the analysis shows.

We pretty much have that structure. It doesn't look like Stefanski is as hardheaded as Zimmer at HC, though, which I see as a positive. We've got a bunch of people who combine analytics and scouting.

bull...the analytics guy in Cleveland is a member of the Browns Pro Scouting team?

NO, the Browns are not setup similar or even close to the front office structure in Minnesota.

You said Depo is over everything, so he is a member of the pro scouting team.

Check and Mate, lol!

U say all depo does is set up process ... he was in on the last two hiring interviews ... so he does in fact do more than set up process .... no? ..

Please clarify to what degree he does more, then. Be specific, because he has been specific that he creates and implements processes.

Now, if *I* have to guess, it is that he did homework on the guys being sought and because of that he is in there to see if the person in the room matches the person on the papers in front of all of them. In the end, he is a sounding board and just part of the process, but in no way a decision maker. At most, he gets to say whether or not he feels the interviewee is someone he can work with, or whom he believe will be capable of working with him.

It isn't this freaking difficult to comprehend folks, and despite it being the Browns, there isn't something nefarious around every corner.

I think he just sits in on those interviews and does nothing, says nothing and has no input. He's purely the window dressing.

Well thank god you know how it works ...

Let me guess ... he don’t have the thief’s ear either ... ..

Fact is ... NONE of us know what his role is or exactly how much influence he has on the thief ... but hey ,,, fell free to think u do ...

Interviews are a process. The guy who put the process together making sure it's run as intended makes sense, no?

"Now sit here and look pretty DePo. You distract him, and we'll get answers when he's not thinking."

Of course he has his ear... he's one of the Executives. I think we differ on just what or how much that means, however.
I mean, it clearly didn't mean much the last two coaching hires, right?

Ummm ... he wanted kev las year ... so I’m not sure how he didn’t have a hand in it ...

And IMO he’s the main reason KJ’s gone ...

U guys are kidding yourselves if u think he sat in on all those interviews just to make sure the process was done right ,,, that’s actually delusional IMO ...

The fact he didn't get his guy last year but got his guy this year plainly indicates his level in the power structure has increased.

lol, ok... you rock on with your conspiracy of.. whatever.

Gepettodesta... the puppet master is pulling all the strings

You got that backwards Diam. You kidding yourself if you think Depo ever picked our GM, Head Coach, Assistant coach, draft pick, free agent, traded for a player, signed a free agent, or told the Browns how much they could offer a player a contract for. That is all a bigger fairy tale than Cinderella.

I'm not saying he's pulling all the strings. But since he didn't get his hand picked HC last year but got him this year, how does it become a logical conclusion that his level in the power structure has not increased?

I mean if you sit in on the interview and you get your hand selected HC of choice, it seems pretty obvious you have a lot of influence in that decision making.

I don't really get the angst about DePo being in the interview room. Who else was going to be there? As it was, it was Jimmy, Dee, and Jimmy Jr. (or was it a son-in-law?) that was the interview panel. I mean, thank God at least DePo was in there as well.

It was his son -in-law

Also don't forget his daughter is one of our owners as well.

Point is, whatever your opinion of DePo may be, he's the only one in there that's even remotely qualified to interview a coach or GM. Jimmy or Dee have to be there since they're signing the checks.

I don't think it means anything in regard to influence; it merely means someone finally took time to listen to what he said. The last two coaching hires, what he suggested was not listened to, so all it says to me is that Haslam finally decided to listen to him (who also happens to be one of the only people left through all other changes).

IF things work out this time, then Yes, I think that will translate to an increase in influence, but I can't say that I believe that not being listened to in the past bestows added influence this time around... it feels more like Jimmy did a "ok, fine, let's try listening to the Harvard kid this time" thing.

Jimmy has been inserting himself and his ideas - like a Jerry Jones - every step of the way since he bought the team, and literally every single thing he has touched in that regard was a crapfest in short order. Maybe, just maybe, he ate a small slice of humble pie and decided that he needs to actually listen to the advice he is paying people for.

It seems that your answer is exactly what I'm saying. If people are now listening to you and taking your suggestions/recommendations, that certainly is an obvious increase in your influence in the power structure.

I think any differences in view are buried in the semantics of the word "influence".

So if you didn't listen to someone before and you are listening to them now, that isn't having more influence?

Not necessarily or inherently, no, it is not.

1 : the power or capacity of causing an effect in indirect or intangible ways : sway
2a : the act or power of producing an effect without apparent exertion of force or direct exercise of command

I never said that ... but nice job ...

Another fairy tale is all he does is set up process ... something U and a few others have ACTUALLY SAID ...

I’ll leave it at that and see what other BS u wanna say i said .. can’t wait to see what else I’ve said ...

Zero angst here on depo being in the room ... just not a fan of BS witch is what there selling ...

Depo’s only a process guy yet he’s in on the interviews ...

Understand now? ...

I’m simply pointing out the fact depo isn’t just a process guy ... cause his actions don’t match those words ...

I will look up your other bs when I get a little time bro.

You said that above. Along with this



and this





Who ever said Depo and Berry thought Sashi was thier BOY?







You just like mac keep saying Depo is in charge of things that he is not.

Did you ever say he was in charge of some of the things I listed..... well after looking back at your posts NO you didn't I was wrong about that and I apoligize.

Maybe to make sure the process is being followed?

Look, I am not saying he isn't a part of the interviews and can't or doesn't ask any questions. He is a sharp guy. Every question you ask a coach or players isn't always about X's and O's.

I just don't think he is the driving force behind all the decisions.

Think about it man...the guy is smart. It makes no sense to think you aren't even going to solicit his input. That is what he is hired to do. Provide information, which in a round about way is expressing an opinion.

He isn't the one making the decisions. He gives his input. We need to draft this group of players for these reasons, we probably need to avoid this group of players for these reason.

The the GM and coach can make a call.

We don't know, but if so, that is a good thing. He was giving Jimmy info on who we should draft pre-draft, then saw them to go on and have fine seasons on some other team while our Tiki Tiki wasn't doing squat.

Hopefully next time you’ll use things i actually said and not crap u make up bro ...

Your a good man GM ... i apologize also ... your one of the very very few that don’t deserve my ... lets call it honesty ... *L* ...

Your a class act bro .... always have been ....

Til the next time ... *L*

Butting heads like two male rams builds respect buddy lol I like being able to but heads and for neither of us to take it personal.

Yes he is... I have been very lucky to have gotten to know him on a personal level..


As far as you Diam... your a real........... good guy also

Me, I am a A hole.

you are such a dear friend of mine ..and I will cherish and love you forever my friend...

One thing the football guys did... was keep the Browns in Cleveland..


I have met some of the best people in my life because of them...

I can honestly say all the people I have met from this site is amazing... everyone I have met are a blessing and I will never forget them.... that's going back a long way...Whether in person or through this board you all have been a big part of my life... Thank you

When.... If.... Maybe.... Oh hell if I ever grew up, I would want to be just like you buddy &#128077;

we have had our laughs together... one thing about this board... it really shows that Browns fans are the best ever !!!!!

Friends also.... I'm Billy for you who don't know ...just a name ..

As you have been part of ours. Thank you, Billy...

jc

Listen...

I watched when it first came out and have watched it a few times.

That should give you confidence that Depo isn't pulling all the strings.

I watched the pressers with Andrew, Kevin and Paul. I came away with the same opinion on all that we have very intelligent and capable men running things now. I have more confidence in this group than I've had in the past. I really feel this time we got it right but again time will tell. They should be allowed to do their jobs and be given the time they need. We need patience now more than ever. JMO

Hard not to....Paul Brown was probably he first coach to institute analytics in to the scouting and coaching.

Paul was big in to analytics.

peen...he has his fingers all over this franchise and it sounds like Haslam has given free reign to whatever he wants...and this guy is "part time" with only 4 yrs of NFL experience.

Hopefully some of our more experienced coaches will try to school Google boy. Remember when we were told that analytics is just tool to help make decisions...Depo is going way beyond just the analytics provided as just one tool for coaches and scouts to use.

I like you, Homes.............but, I really don't get how people keep repeating that these guys are so smart and we should trust them.

This is basically the same group that assembled a 1 and 31 team. Their QBs were Kizer, Kessler, and and Hogan. None of them had won a game before they were our QBs. I don't know if they have ever won a game in the NFL. Kessler might have won a game when they scored something like 10 points. The top three receivers they chose were Kenny Britt, Corey Coleman, and Ricardo Louis. They passed on QBs like Wentz, Mahomes, and Watson. Depo said that they didn't believe Wentz was a top 20 qb. They could have had Watson at 12 and traded the pick.

They did not want to or were not able to re-sign good, young players. They cut a guy like Joe Haden days after the HC and DC were saying how invaluable he was to the defense.

That's not smart. It's freaking ignorant.

I agree. The only thing that would make me feel better about Berry is if he was loudly arguing against some of the "smart" moves made by Sashi Brown while he was in charge.

I doubt that he did though. There were certainly no reports that he was ..... no reports of "internal discord" between him and Brown. There were no reports of him fighting for one of the top QBs, when Brown was making his brilliant trade downs.

There were reports of the coaches being ...... perturbed .... when Joe Haden was released .... but not Berry.

The brain trust of Sashi and Berry left a team with 1 situational RB, (Duke) no QB, 1 WR, (Higgins) 1 TE (Njoku) and 3 OL.

On defense they left us with 2 DL, (Garrett and Ogunjobi) 2 LB, one always injured, and 1 being played out of position, (Kirksey and Schobert) and 1 S of questionable production. (Peppers)

In other words, almost every unit needed rebuilt.

RGIII and McCown were our top 2 QBs the Coleman draft. They both got hurt early. Kessler was the 3rd string QB we were supposed to trust Hue about. You're still holding it against Sashi that our 3rd string QB wasn't a world-beater?

2017 draft, Myles Garrett was the consensus top pick. Hue wanted Hooker who missed the combine with a knee injury with the next pick. He wasn't banging the table for a QB. If I recall correctly, you weren't a Mahomes fan, either. They drafted Kizer with the intention of sitting him a year, and Hue played him anyways. Was that an ideal QB room? No, but the 2018 draft was supposedly a great year to need a QB and we'd been on a multi-year rebuild plan.

Coleman spent 5 (wk 1 then 14-17) games with the QB he was drafted to play with. A mobile QB that threw nice deepballs. Due to injuries he mostly played with a noodlearmed rookie, then a completely unprepared rookie the next year. Would he have flopped with a better QB and environment? Britt didn't work out, but he was coming off a good year. They structured his contract so they could get out of it. Williams allegedly gave him a vote of confidence after their time with the Rams. Louis was the 114th pick and played special teams, he was a Height/Weight/Speed lottery ticket. They brought in Higgins then, too.

Joe Haden had had two injury plagued down years in a row and they asked him to take a pay cut. He declined. It's a business. Did Sashi go too hard with the business side? Probably, but that's where he was coming from/"specialized". We'd also just had an awful season, so Joe had plenty of reasons to be okay with finding greener pastures.

There are lots of different ways to paint the two Sashi years. You keep choosing the worst colors possible.

We were a bad team before Sashi. We had the assets to get multiple top of the draft players after him.

Hopefully Berry is a better balance of the various "worlds" (scouting, business, analytics) and can actually work with the people around him. We'll see.

This is football...you are what your record says you are!

If you want to call him a 1-31 executive and leave it at that, that'd be true. It's the explanations for how he arrived there that vary.

Agreed. I will add that the "smart" guys were considering drafting Trubiski w/the first overall pick and Hue let everyone in the building know that he would not support that particular choice and he campaigned for Myles. Thank God for that.

The crazy thing is the "smart" guys had Trubiski rated higher than both Mahomes and Watson. And when Watson fell to the 12th pick, the Browns "smartly" traded that choice away.


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Btw: Would someone let Bull know that RGIII, McCown, and Kessler were the qbs in the "smart" guys first year and they then "chose" to go w/Kizer, Kessler, and Hogan in the second year of their "smart" tenure?

And one more thing on the Haden situation. Cutting him a week or so after the DC and HC praised him is a sure sign how much importance the "smart" guys put into "working together" and "being on the same page."

Just know this ... your still wrong ... Depo’s more than just a process dude ... *LOL* ...

We saved like 2 million when we cut Haden .. i had no probs with the move til i heard that ... i was not a fan of Haden ... but to save pennies it was ANOTHER HORRIBLE MOVE ...

Your sticking up for the Coleman pick by giving reasons why he failed here ... ..

He’s been on 2 or 3 other teams since then and has never been more than a 5th ...

U guts do it all the time ... all the stench gets put on people not here meanwhile depo and now berry get credit for the good and are shielded from the bad ... that’s BS ... its as bad or worse as saying there going to stink now because of what happened 3 or 4 years ago ...

Its BS ...

Funny you sound like my wife, but you sure don't look like her. Plus I'm right.

See, that's the difference here. I never said it was a bad thing. I said he now has more influence. And he certainly does. It amazes me how hard people reach to try and deny that.

His HC of choice from last year was hired this year. I'm not sure how much more physical evidence one could possibly need than that to see that he has Haslam's ear much more now than in the past.

How that plays out moving forward in either a positive or negative way remains to be seen. I'm not saying he runs the team or makes all the calls the way mac is trying to do. What I am saying is that the HC and the way the system works out moving forward is more influenced in the direction Depo envisions.

As with every system be that football people or analytics there will be hits and misses. Hopefully it's more hits and less misses.

that was the Bengals philosophy for years, gee there is a model to follow.

Hue decided to start Kizer over Osweiler, that was Hue's choice not the FO. I think they tried to work with Hue too much. Didn't make sense to pay Osweiler his bad contract to be a backup once Hue named Kizer the guy.

Where's the evidence of the FO having Trubisky rated that highly? You keep saying it, but Hue thinking something doesn't make it true.

You keep stating facts I'm not debating, but put them like they prove something. Yes, those were the QBs we had. Yes, Hue utilized them terribly.

We passed on Watson. Fine. He'd probably have looked awful with Hue trying to make him a pocket passer and bad pieces around him. Watson and Hopkins works pretty well. Watson with Britt, Coleman, and Louis with Hue coaching? That has dumpster fire written all over it.

Saddled with a 3-36-1 coach, who they didn't want in the first place, they decided to look to the future.

The Haden cutting was a bad move. It wasn't one they wanted to make. They wanted to renegotiate his deal. Unfortunately, it didn't work out and feelings were hurt.

Honest debate is often ruined by deceit on this board. Have a nice life.

Report: Browns still considering Mitchell Trubisky first overall

There have also been reports, denied by the Browns, of a rift in the front office, with head coach Hue Jackson wanting Garrett but Chief Strategy Officer Paul DePodesta wanting Trubisky. It would be strange, to say the least, for the Browns to hire a head coach with a good track record for developing quarterbacks in Jackson, then use the first overall pick in the draft on a quarterback Jackson doesn’t think they should take.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/20...-first-overall/

Hue Jackson reportedly wanted no part of Mitch Trubisky in 2017

"Now there was debate between targeting Texas A&M defensive end Myles Garrett and North Carolina quarterback Mitch Trubisky," Wickersham wrote. "Jackson wanted Garrett and one day made his case by taping pictures of Garrett on the glass walls in [owner Jimmy] Haslam's office as a joke. But Jackson wasn't kidding when he later vowed to Haslam that he wouldn't support Trubisky, publicly or privately. The team ended up deciding in favor of Garrett but kept Jackson in the dark about it until shortly before the draft, for reasons unexplained to him."

https://247sports.com/nfl/chicago-bears/...raft-128253300/

you know, bull, I find it mind numbingly stunning that all this conversation is going on about what was done 3,4 even five years ago. news flash, I think some idiot gave up Paul warfield for who again?? that really needs a thorough rehashing so will some of you guys get to it.

I also find it amazing that some folks of presumably reasonable intelligence think that because some of our leadership was here during the tear down, that what they did then to rid us of contracts and build draft assets for the future has zero to do with what will be done now. totally different team in a totally different place.

most people can see this but we have a few folks who choose not to. we also have a couple who are in desperate need of Valium.

Crazy that an inaccurate story would come out just before the draft, right? That never happens.

Also, Myles Garrett is on the team. The person in charge made the right choice.

It's become Dawgtalkers protocol. People will do pretty much anything to promote what they believe and dismiss what they don't. Sportswriters turn from good, to trash and back to good depending on what they write. If they write things people don't want to see or read, they suddenly become trash. Once they start writing things people want to see and read, they become good again.

It's all the rage.

Just so we’re clear, Sashi was in charge. Myles Garrett is on the team. Good job Sashi.

I don't make the news. I just report it.

Quoted for ironic truth.

Hue is still the one that named Kizer the week one starter a week later. I'm not going to ignore a fact just because you don't like it.

Keep pointing to unrelated indirect quotes out of context as evidence.

Sometimes honest debate hurts when your own "deceit" gets pointed out.

There is rarely a time when the vast majority of posters on this board ever agree about anything.

One of the few times I remember it being close is when the popular opinion was that the only reason the Browns traded for Osweiler was for the second round draft pick that came with him. We had lots of cap space so we traded some cap space for the pick. Very few thought we traded for him to play QB.

But revisionist history often times comes into play here.

Okay, time for you to be nasty again.

I never said we traded for him to play. Once here, he performed better than expected. Hue chose to start Kizer. There was no point in keeping Brock around at his price tag if he wasn't starting.

The FO's plan wasn't to start Kizer. The two groups couldn't agree on seemingly anything. It was a mess. It was a good example of why having a GM and HC on the same page is a good idea. It's a disaster when the groups have different beliefs.

Again? I haven't taken the gloves off yet. I intend not to.

Keep up the straw man arguments against things only you are saying and it will continue to be good (if extremely annoying) training in patience for me.

There was no difference in Osweiler's paycheck whether or not we played him, or cut him. He had a guaranteed deal.

We saved nothing by cutting him.

I do recall it as "guaranteed," too.

Contract details are hard to come by. Spotrac just has the 1 year deal back to Denver that I saw. Was there offset language, were there escalators, would future guarantees have kicked/locked in?

It's hard to keep a $72 million QB on the roster as a backup. Guaranteed money or not. Once passed over for a rookie who was supposed to sit the whole season, he wasn't a part of the plan going forward.

If he had been started, the plan for Kizer to sit and mature could have been followed. I don't think looking back over his shoulder at a guy making that much money would have helped Kizer any.

Everyone seemed to have their own plans.