We should have made the playoffs in 2018. We got robbed 2 wins because of bad calls in the Oakland game and the 2nd game with Baltimore. The refs blew the play dead prematurely on the 2 fumble recoveries which cost us a TD in each game. Water under the bridge but if we won those games and made the playoffs things would have been very different. How could we have fired GW if he got us in the playoffs for the 1st time since "02? We would have probably kept him and our other coaches in place. Food for thought.
This is a comment from your previous thread that just got locked.
Quote:
Crazy that an inaccurate story would come out just before the draft, right? That never happens.
This refers to information that the FO wanted Trubisky at number 1 and Hue said he would not support Trub. He wanted Myles.
Actually, Seth Wickersham posted this information not too long ago. It was in the same article that contained the infamous "I flexed my muscles" comment that many of the "smart" posters like to continually bring up. It was a story by a writer who was inside the building.
Too many folks on here are in the deception game and are not in search of the truth or honest debate.
Also, Bull is telling outright lies in that thread and many others. The one I was involved in was the Osweiler decision.
cfrs could have confirmed what I said was true and that Bull's take was incorrect, but he chose not to. I say that because cfrs posted Osweiler's comment many times{Go ask the GM] when he was asked why he was no longer starting. cfrs thought it was a really "weird" answer. I thought it spoke volumes about Sashi. Of course, cfrs conveniently didn't mention any of that when he joined the locked thread.
In my opinion, Dorsey was the best thing that has happened to the Browns since their rebirth. Before he got here, analysts consistently said that Browns had the worst roster or very close to the worst for years. Last year, those same people [I'm not talking about Brown's fans or dudes on here] said the Browns had as good of a roster as any team in the league.
Dorsey turned the roster from a disgrace into a very talented one in just two years. Yes, he had a lot of assets to work with. I would never debate that. However, he made a ton of good picks, trades, and signings.
Folks point out that it's easy to acquire talent when you have so many assets. I think it helps, but getting Landry for a 4th round choice and trading a stiff like Kizer for Randall had nothing to do w/that.
I think it is way easier to tank. Don't re-sign your good players. Trade away your high draft choices. Tear the team apart. That isn't hard. Any idiot can do that. What you have to look at is the picks they made and the free agents they signed. And the "smart" guys failed miserably at that part of the process.
It led to 1 and 31 and folks are trying to tell us that bringing back those dudes is "smart." LMAO.........it's such a crazy argument that all one can do is laugh, but folks on here actually champion such nonsense.
I am so upset that the team I have loved for over 50 years fired the best GM they have had since the rebirth and replaced him w/guys who obviously were sniping at his back the entire time.
I am not going to respond to any of you. I don't want the aggravation that always comes from such discussions. Feel free to think and say what you will of each regime. However, I wanted to voice my opinion on the Dorsey situation again. I feel as if something valuable was stolen from me and replaced w/garbage.
The only two times Trubisky is mentioned in the Wickersham article:
Quote:
Now there was debate between targeting Texas A&M defensive end Myles Garrett and North Carolina quarterback Mitch Trubisky. Jackson wanted Garrett and one day made his case by taping pictures of Garrett on the glass walls in Haslam's office as a joke. But Jackson wasn't kidding when he later vowed to Haslam that he wouldn't support Trubisky, publicly or privately. The team ended up deciding in favor of Garrett but kept Jackson in the dark about it until shortly before the draft, for reasons unexplained to him.
With the Browns offense as bad as it was, the team won 6 games.
With our defense as bad as it was, the team had 6 wins.
Identifying the weak areas on offense and defense shouldn't be difficult for the incoming staff. Focus the draft and free agency in those areas of need and with good coaching, it should not be that difficult for this team to win 3 or 4 more games.
Ten wins should get the Browns in the playoffs in 2020.
If the new management and coaching staff go back to playing Moneyball, FORGET THE PLAYOFFS this year. But, with the talent already on this team, it is not necessary to go back to losing with Moneyball. I hope I "never" see that scheme again.
So, I see the title and think “ Gee, wonder where this will go?”
Then I read the post and say “Yeah, simple, solid view. I can agree with the ten wins idea.”
Then I read your second post, and, well, you made it three sentences.
You seem to have a weird kind of Tourette’s, where you have to, just have to, scream “Moneyball!!” over and over, no matter how deranged it makes you look.
It's funny how so many folks get upset when other folks question the latest regime after they spent years complaining about the previous regime.
Dudes will be saying stuff like "go root for another team." Meanwhile, they ignore that they bashed Hue and Dorsey multiple times daily after Sashi was fired.
Then, we have dudes who constantly proclaim that can't believe we brought back Hue after 1 and 31, yet they don't say boo-peep about bringing back most of the FO who was responsible for 1 and 31.
Depodesta is running the franchise at this point, hiring the HC that HE WANTS...
...hiring the GM that HE WANTS...
Depodesta will be sitting in on the draft, making sure that players that meet his standards are drafted.
At this time, Depodesta is running this franchise and he is inheriting a team that won 13 games in the past two seasons...and 99% believe last years team grossly under performed.
Depodesta inherits a team with great potential with a coach and GM that meet his standards. I'm not sure what some of you are disputing>
It's funny how so many folks get upset when other folks question the latest regime after they spent years complaining about the previous regime.
Dudes will be saying stuff like "go root for another team." Meanwhile, they ignore that they bashed Hue and Dorsey multiple times daily after Sashi was fired.
Then, we have dudes who constantly proclaim that can't believe we brought back Hue after 1 and 31, yet they don't say boo-peep about bringing back most of the FO who was responsible for 1 and 31.
Hi jfan and y'all.
You must have missed my post about not being thrilled with bringing Berry back. What are you doing, did you just come back to crack on other posters here? Most of your posts are doing just that. Are you a Browns fan again or just trolling?
Depodesta is running the franchise at this point, hiring the HC that HE WANTS...
...hiring the GM that HE WANTS...
Depodesta will be sitting in on the draft, making sure that players that meet his standards are drafted.
At this time, Depodesta is running this franchise and he is inheriting a team that won 13 games in the past two seasons...and 99% believe last years team grossly under performed.
Depodesta inherits a team with great potential with a coach and GM that meet his standards. I'm not sure what some of you are disputing>
I wonder what the minimally acceptable record would have been if we had kept Dorsey and Freddie? (or even just Dorsey)
I bet a whole lot of people who are poo-pooing the idea that the playoffs should be the minimally acceptable outcome for the new guys would be 100% behind the idea that this would have had to be the minimum for Dorsey and Freddie. (or a coach of Dorsey's choosing)
Depo has to wish he inherited more than this underachieving group. We should stop blaming losses on zebras, even if true.
We are our record. Gear up.
Unleash The Elf!
I agree. Bad calls happen all the time. In the end it is rare they have major impact...th non interference call on the Saints receiver made a big difference.
It goes to show that even good teams sometimes can't overcome a bad call. We aren't that good. We allow every bad call to impact us.
I wonder what the minimally acceptable record would have been if we had kept Dorsey and Freddie? (or even just Dorsey)
I bet a whole lot of people who are poo-pooing the idea that the playoffs should be the minimally acceptable outcome for the new guys would be 100% behind the idea that this would have had to be the minimum for Dorsey and Freddie. (or a coach of Dorsey's choosing)
Probably so, but we made a full change, and that throws it back a bit. I said a bit. Not a lot.
In 18 we won 7 games. Last year 6, so we were trending downward. The record says so.
If we win 7, we are then trending upward, right?
Being the fair person that I am, I realize it isn't that cut and dried. I am not going to claim 10 wins and playoffs or it is a failure like some with the agenda insist, but 8-9 wins would be a good improvement.
It is what it is YTBF....we could lose the Superbowl and a few would claim that as Depo being a failure...and he isn't even the decision maker for crying-out-loud.
Nate Ulrich @ByNateUlrich #Browns QB Brock Osweiler on what needs to happen for him to still win starting job: that's a good question for the general manager.
Why would the question of what needs to happen for Brock to start be up to the general manager? Isn't Jackson the one making the lineup decisions here? Again, weird.
One potential theory on the benching is that the Browns are going to attempt to get something for Osweiler in a trade and thus don't want him to get injured, but Osweiler isn't leaning in that direction himself.
Brock Osweiler: No regrets about anything I’ve done with Browns
With Kizer officially installed as the starter for a preseason game only at this point, Osweiler said he feels like he still has a “great opportunity” with the team, although he said it was better to ask General Manager Sashi Brown what he could do to win the job.
If we get to the Super Bowl, I won't call anyone a failure.
If we win 5 or less games, (barring a disastrous string of injuries, or other uncontrollable) I will.
I know YOU wouldn't because you are smart and a good guy. I have been rapping with you for what, 20 years or more? I was talking about other people.
Sure, 5 wins would be disaster unless as you said, 5 key players go down for one reason or another.
Next man up sounds great, and you can cover to a degree if it is one player, but you start looking at multiples of 2nd stringers playing, you have a problem you won't fix.
It’s hard to say because it seems like things behind the scenes were worse than on the surface.
I would have been pleased to have kept Dorsey while firing Freddie.
But those arguing that Dorsey was the be all and end all and it was lunacy to let Dorsey go seem to give him a free pass on the dysfunction that was going on (and he was "The" guy last year without any interference from FO so he owns it) ... also the FK hire and wanting to stick by him ... and while I personally lean on the side that says Dorsey improved the talent on the roster dramatically, there is a lot of debate to be made over that as well. So it really is not at all cut and dry.
It’s hard to say because it seems like things behind the scenes were worse than on the surface.
I would have been pleased to have kept Dorsey while firing Freddie.
But those arguing that Dorsey was the be all and end all and it was lunacy to let Dorsey go seem to give him a free pass on the dysfunction that was going on (and he was "The" guy last year without any interference from FO so he owns it) ... also the FK hire and wanting to stick by him ... and while I personally lean on the side that says Dorsey improved the talent on the roster dramatically, there is a lot of debate to be made over that as well. So it really is not at all cut and dry.
He could have stayed. He chose to leave. he wasn't going to have open range on the next coach, and maybe a scaled back say on final roster, but I am not sure of that. I think id scaled back, it would have been minimal.
Yet, he wouldn't have been the Silverback storming around Berea chewing gum calling people "buddy boy".
Maybe I'll just start calling people who were 100% behind Dorsey "buddy boy".
I wonder what the minimally acceptable record would have been if we had kept Dorsey and Freddie? (or even just Dorsey)
I bet a whole lot of people who are poo-pooing the idea that the playoffs should be the minimally acceptable outcome for the new guys would be 100% behind the idea that this would have had to be the minimum for Dorsey and Freddie. (or a coach of Dorsey's choosing)
Probably so, but we made a full change, and that throws it back a bit. I said a bit. Not a lot.
In 18 we won 7 games. Last year 6, so we were trending downward. The record says so.
If we win 7, we are then trending upward, right?
Being the fair person that I am, I realize it isn't that cut and dried. I am not going to claim 10 wins and playoffs or it is a failure like some with the agenda insist, but 8-9 wins would be a good improvement.
It is what it is YTBF....we could lose the Superbowl and a few would claim that as Depo being a failure...and he isn't even the decision maker for crying-out-loud.
Yet, many folks are supporting the firing of Dorsey who took over a team that has a 1 and 31 record and the worst roster in the NFL and went 13-18-1 in the next two years and constructed one of--if not the most--talented rosters in the league.
I still can't believe the Browns got rid of Dorsey. I really think that Depo and the other guys left over from the previous regime were at odds w/Dorsey the entire time and used last season's struggles as a vehicle to convince Haslam to get rid of the best thing the Browns have had since our rebirth.
As a lifelong fan of the team, I truly feel cheated and it galls me how so many of you are acting like this is a good thing.
1 and 31 to 13-18-1 is significant improvement. It's hard to overcome a losing culture in football. You simply don't play enough games. It's very different from the NBA and MLB. I truly think that most folks on here don't understand that aspect of how dumb it was to tank.
Last year i said division crown and this year will be no different .... the TALENTS there .... i personally have the same agenda I did last year ... WIN ....
and your full of crap thinking going from 6 wins last year to 7 or 8 this year is improvement ... that’s exactly why STATS ARE FOR LOSERS! .... u wanna know why? ... how many games did my boy cost us last year? ... between him and Wilkes we were the worst coached team in the league IMO ... Wilkes stunk too .... THE TALENTS THERE ....
I am not a guy that likes coaches tossed without giving them a chance ... i saw enough of not ready Freddie to be fine with canning him ... if Kev and staff are just as bad .. i may be fine with them going also ...
IF we don’t win at least 10 and/or don’t make the playoffs I will once again be disappointed ...
But the best parts gonna be if it happens ... all were gonna hear is how great the new staff is and Depo is the new best exec in football ... ...
I wonder what the minimally acceptable record would have been if we had kept Dorsey and Freddie? (or even just Dorsey)
I bet a whole lot of people who are poo-pooing the idea that the playoffs should be the minimally acceptable outcome for the new guys would be 100% behind the idea that this would have had to be the minimum for Dorsey and Freddie. (or a coach of Dorsey's choosing)
Probably so, but we made a full change, and that throws it back a bit. I said a bit. Not a lot.
In 18 we won 7 games. Last year 6, so we were trending downward. The record says so.
If we win 7, we are then trending upward, right?
Being the fair person that I am, I realize it isn't that cut and dried. I am not going to claim 10 wins and playoffs or it is a failure like some with the agenda insist, but 8-9 wins would be a good improvement.
It is what it is YTBF....we could lose the Superbowl and a few would claim that as Depo being a failure...and he isn't even the decision maker for crying-out-loud.
Yet, many folks are supporting the firing of Dorsey who took over a team that has a 1 and 31 record and the worst roster in the NFL and went 13-18-1 in the next two years and constructed one of--if not the most--talented rosters in the league.
I still can't believe the Browns got rid of Dorsey. I really think that Depo and the other guys left over from the previous regime were at odds w/Dorsey the entire time and used last season's struggles as a vehicle to convince Haslam to get rid of the best thing the Browns have had since our rebirth.
As a lifelong fan of the team, I truly feel cheated and it galls me how so many of you are acting like this is a good thing.
1 and 31 to 13-18-1 is significant improvement. It's hard to overcome a losing culture in football. You simply don't play enough games. It's very different from the NBA and MLB. I truly think that most folks on here don't understand that aspect of how dumb it was to tank.
If Dorsey's job was only blowing through assets on players, he'd still be here. You talk about culture, but it looked worse last year than it did under Hue. Dorsey and his handpicked coach had more people in and out of the doghouse and fewer people on the same page than I've ever seen. We were so undisciplined, Myles ripped a guy's helmet off and tried to beat him with it. Baker regressed. Saying that most of the people on the team aren't "real football players" wasn't good for our culture. There's more to being a good GM than just being a good scout. He brought in some talented skill position players. The players that the media thinks of when they think of the "stars". Unfortunately, his work in the trenches was underwhelming.
Hopefully, we have a group now that won't lead to another bout of toxic culture. We have the talent to compete. Now we just need to provide the talent with a better environment. Berry's an unknown as a player picker, or at least he has no track record. He could be good. Why assume he isn't?
Can we thank Dorsey for the talent he brought while also acknowledging he was part of the problem?
Come on, bro! You are being unfair. Your expectations are too high for the new guys.
Last year, most folks on here had us winning the division. Many had us winning playoff games. Quite a few thought we could win the Super Bowl.
Now, we read things like winning 7 games would be acceptable because the team is trending downward. LMAO.........and it comes from guys who were constantly talking up the analytics guys and bad-mouthing Dorsey. But yeah, they are "fair."
I still can't believe the Browns got rid of Dorsey. I really think that Depo and the other guys left over from the previous regime were at odds w/Dorsey the entire time and used last season's struggles as a vehicle to convince Haslam to get rid of the best thing the Browns have had since our rebirth.
Depo and Dorsey were at odds. It's why Dorsey hired Freddie...to prove who had more power. So instead of Dorsey doing what was best for the Browns he was more interested in winning a pissing contest. That was ultimately his undoing.
But I don't blame Dorsey. I blame Haslam. He's the one that created a situation and culture that pitted Depo against Dorsey.
Things will never get better under Haslam. He's created a rotten to the core organizational culture where nothing can survive.
This season will be a disaster. Just like all the others.
I agree w/almost all of what you said other than one or maybe two stances.
I think Dorsey hired Freddie because that is who Baker wanted. That is not an insult to either Baker or Dorsey. I think Baker liked Freddie and Dorsey was trying to do everything he could to make things "right" for Baker.
The other thing is that I don't think this upcoming year will be a disaster. I think the talent Dorsey acquired will lead to two more decent seasons and then it will go rapidly downhill as the Depo/Berry/Etc guys will make dumb move after dumb move like they did when they led the team to 1 and 31.
I agree that is who Baker wanted. But then who was the "flexing muscles" comment directed toward then? The fact that Baker wanted Freddie just greased the wheels for Dorsey to make it happen and get one up on Depo. The fact that Freddie failed then gave Depo the ammunition to get in Haslam's ear.
It's an absolute dysfunctional mess that incentivizes employees to want to get their way instead of doing what is right for the organization.
I'm sorry. The Browns will never be good under Haslam. I've said this before and I'll keep saying it all the way through another double digit loss season upcoming...alignment was a fancy word that allows Haslam to meddle.
I mean let's be honest here...Dorsey, Wolf, and Highsmith...OR...Depo, Berry, and Stefanski? My point being is Haslam could have had alignment with the guys that were already here. You know the guys full of experience and a proven track record.
I am speculating, but I think that Dorsey might have resented the power that Depo had, especially because the guy would not even commit to being in the facility and instead resided in San Diego.
I also think that the leftovers from the previous regime battled w/Dorsey over power. I can see why Dorsey might have questioned their competence and trustworthiness. They are the same guys who would not even tell their HC who would be their first overall pick. They also cut Joe Haden after the HC and DC just said how invaluable he was. They are the same guys who balked at acquiring Jimmy G despite the coaches wanting the dude. They are same guys that Wylie wrote about leaving the facility early each night and not supporting the coaching staff.
There are folks on here who have a history of deception telling us that Dorsey couldn't work well w/others, but I think the truth points more towards the others not working well w/Dorsey, Highsmith, Wold, and company. Fat Freddie's incompetence gave Depo the ammunition to get in Jimmy's ear. Dorsey had rightfully put Jimmy outside of the football decisions, but I almost guarantee that Depo used that as a sword to get Jimmy to turn against Dorsey.
I still can't believe the Browns got rid of Dorsey. I really think that Depo and the other guys left over from the previous regime were at odds w/Dorsey the entire time and used last season's struggles as a vehicle to convince Haslam to get rid of the best thing the Browns have had since our rebirth.
Depo and Dorsey were at odds. It's why Dorsey hired Freddie...to prove who had more power. So instead of Dorsey doing what was best for the Browns he was more interested in winning a pissing contest. That was ultimately his undoing.
But I don't blame Dorsey. I blame Haslam. He's the one that created a situation and culture that pitted Depo against Dorsey.
Things will never get better under Haslam. He's created a rotten to the core organizational culture where nothing can survive.
This season will be a disaster. Just like all the others.
If Haslam "created" the situation, then he created it when he hired Dorsey. He didn't pit DePo against Dorsey, he put Dorsey against DePo. Dorsey was the guy who got what he wanted and made no secret that was what he intended when he first came on board.
Dorsey absolutely made decisions in acquiring talent that helped improve the roster. But Dorsey also made decisions based on what Dorsey wanted to do because it's what he wanted to do regardless of whether or not it fit in the big picture. Talk all you want about instilling a winning culture, but it's obvious that Dorsey was not the guy to do that. EVERY single one of the behavioral problems various players presented ranging from OBJ's uniform tiffs with the League to Myles getting suspended were all decisions made based on what theywanted to do, not with the big picture in mind.
I direct reflection on Dorsey.
So you'll have to excuse folks like me for not pining after yet another alleged "football" guy who somewhere along the line forgot about the importance of team in football.
I am speculating, but I think that Dorsey might have resented the power that Depo had, especially because the guy would not even commit to being in the facility and instead resided in San Diego.
I also think that the leftovers from the previous regime battled w/Dorsey over power. I can see why Dorsey might have questioned their competence and trustworthiness. They are the same guys who would not even tell their HC who would be their first overall pick. They also cut Joe Haden after the HC and DC just said how invaluable he was. They are the same guys who balked at acquiring Jimmy G despite the coaches wanting the dude. They are same guys that Wylie wrote about leaving the facility early each night and not supporting the coaching staff.
There are folks on here who have a history of deception telling us that Dorsey couldn't work well w/others, but I think the truth points more towards the others not working well w/Dorsey, Highsmith, Wold, and company. Fat Freddie's incompetence gave Depo the ammunition to get in Jimmy's ear. Dorsey had rightfully put Jimmy outside of the football decisions, but I almost guarantee that Depo used that as a sword to get Jimmy to turn against Dorsey.
The bad guys won and I am bitter.
From everything I've been able to find, Sashi inquired about Jimmy G and Bill said he wasn't available. On various broadcasts leading up to the Superbowl, the story went Bill would only trade Jimmy to somewhere he thought he could be successful.
Wylie's account was vastly different. Now, some might believe Wylie when referring to Freddie and Zampese and then choose to not believe him about Sashi and the FO. That does not surprise me.
However, I think it might be wise to say he is full or crap, right on, or fairly believable on both accounts.
Wylie's account was vastly different. Now, some might believe Wylie when referring to Freddie and Zampese and then choose to not believe him about Sashi and the FO. That does not surprise me.
However, I think it might be wise to say he is full or crap, right on, or fairly believable on both accounts.
The only comment I'm seeing from Wylie about a Browns' GM is him saying Gregg Williams was too strong for Dorsey.
Have a link? I've tried several different searches and I'm not seeing anything on Sashi or Jimmy G from Wylie.
alk all you want about instilling a winning culture, but it's obvious that Dorsey was not the guy to do that.
LOL...............but, Depo, Berry, and rest of that crew who went 1 and 31 were the guys to instill a winning culture?
Are y'all for real? Seriously!
What's Dorsey's failure to manage and instill a proper culture have to do with DePo, Berry, and crew?
I don't know if they can put one together. I do know however that their guiding philosophy of having a unified vision and making all decisions in the direction of achieving that unified vision paramount IS a recipe for a winning culture.
Spin and fabricate all you want, but everyone we have in place currently came to the position with a reputation of being able to work with others. You can't say that about guys like Dorsey and Hue no matter how much you plug your ears and close your eyes and yell "I can't hear you! I can't hear you!"
Look, the fact of the matter is that the Browns need DePo more than DePo needs the Browns. The field of applied analytics is in great demand across different industries, a field that DePo is highly regarded in no matter how much you and mac and others try to poop talk him.
There is no way that every single coach and GM that Haslam has hired all sucked.
But there is one common denominator.
Jimmy's problem isn't that he hired people who sucked, because for the most part they didn't. Jimmy's problem is that he's tried to shortcut the process he hired DePo (and Sashi et al) that he agreed to.
But to claim that anyone starting with Sashi's firing to Dorsey's parting of ways is a victim is absurd. Being fickle is not Jimmy's problem.
I do think we will have a winner with Jimmy. I don't think all the coaches were horrible, but I think they were put in horrible positions to succeed because of Jimmy.
I'll say it again, but I can't believe people actually think Dorsey did a good job.
Do people actually assume without Dorsey there's no way we could bring talent with the 1st, 4th, 33rd, and 35th picks in the draft? It would have been almost impossible not to... and one of those picks has already been traded away while another one is hated by some fans. How is that being a good GM?
I'll say it again, but I can't believe people actually think Dorsey did a good job.
Do people actually assume without Dorsey there's no way we could bring talent with the 1st, 4th, 33rd, and 35th picks in the draft? It would have been almost impossible not to... and one of those picks has already been traded away while another one is hated by some fans. How is that being a good GM?
I don't know, do they?
Similar to what I replied to Vers, what do the hypothetical picks of hypothetical staff have to do with the the picks actually made by Dorsey?
Look, all I'm trying to do is be consistent. Prior to the beginning of the season, regardless of how much hype any one of us individually bought in to, the bare minimum was that this team should have been competitive. As the season started to shape up and we saw what the Bengals were and what the Steelers were, AND with a win of Baltimore early... this team should have been competing for the Division Title.
That pre-season hype and the visualization of an achievable goal of competing for the Division doesn't happen unless you recognize that there was talent on this roster.
Now, I know in this all or nothing world there's little room for context or nuance. Just because I think Dorsey brought more talent than he let go of, doesn't mean I think he was 100% in this area. I think there was more good than bad.
You're right, probably anyone could have brought talent with those picks. But at a minimum, Dorsey didn't blow the Draft and while he did create some needs, he didn't trash the roster.
My final evaluation of Dorsey is that his ceiling in the NFL is probably that of a really good talent scout. He's simply not cut out to be a manager.
Well Vers, we never know exactly how those things go down, but I think Dorsey could have stayed. It's pretty evident he wasn't going to be the person selecting the coach. Were any other changes going to be made?? I think he would be selecting players and would have still been GM.
When he left it was said they came to a mutually agreed decision.
That usually means the team was changing his authority in some manner and John couldn't agree with those new terms. I don't think Dorsey went to Haslams office and was told he was fired.
Oh...I meant to add...I agree there was some strain between Dorsey, Depo, and Berry. Just days on the job Dorsey came out with his famous line, "Those guys didn't get real players".
You think that might have caused some tension in the building?
That’s your opinion on the playoffs ... I’m certainly not lowering expectations .... the talents still there ... Freddie sucked this is not an excuse but last year the injuries really hurt ... not having an OBJ with the explosion to create separation and make big plays ,,,, u combine with Bake after year 1 thinking this was going to be easy and not doing what he should have in the off season ... just getting OBJ back healthy and Bake hopefully improving immensely will improv3e the O drastically alone ...
And lucky for u, u didn’t say it was my agenda cause its the same agenda as last year ....
Don’t waste your time bro .... the menZas are still butt hurt over last year And need two people to blame instead of one .... criticize KJ all u want for the hire ... WELL DESERVED .... but to fire him over it with all the talent he’s brought us ... typical thief ...
KJ got fired cause he made one bad coaching hire and the thief is ... well the thief ... I’d *L* but that ain’t funny ...
My favorite part .... he loses a power struggle to Reid who left Phili cause he lost a power struggle there ... then wins one vs KJ .... now KJ according to them runs roughshod over Depo to hire Kev ... so KJ can’t get along with no one ... but if we hired Kev and Depo flexed his muscles it would have been fine .... its like they don’t understand SOMEONE HAS TO WIN ... its simply how it works but KJ is the devil cause he won and it didn’t turn out well ...
That usually means the team was changing his authority in some manner and John couldn't agree with those new terms. I don't think Dorsey went to Haslams office and was told he was fired.
Oh...I meant to add...I agree there was some strain between Dorsey, Depo, and Berry. Just days on the job Dorsey came out with his famous line, "Those guys didn't get real players".
You think that might have caused some tension in the building?
If analytics is just another tool provided...to be used by the coaching staff and scouting department, why would there be tension in the building?
If the Browns were simply using analytics as a tool to help address the "uncertainty", why would there be tension in the building.
Dorsey basically said we didn't have any real players on the team.
Would you cozy up to a new board moderator who said we need to get real posters in here? That is pretty much insulting to anyone who posts as well as all previous moderators. Or do you not see it that way?
There is no way that every single coach and GM that Haslam has hired all sucked.
But there is one common denominator.
Jimmy's problem isn't that he hired people who sucked, because for the most part they didn't. Jimmy's problem is that he's tried to shortcut the process he hired DePo (and Sashi et al) that he agreed to.
But to claim that anyone starting with Sashi's firing to Dorsey's parting of ways is a victim is absurd. Being fickle is not Jimmy's problem.
I'm pretty sure Jimmy's biggest problem was that he picked coaches that sucked. Rosters didn't help them, but they were awful as HCs/leaders. It seems they were good with drawing up the X's and O's, but often horrific on getting it to translate to the field.
There have been lots of problems, though. Not just the coaches.
Great point about the coaches .... the track record of the gm’s since they left here is INCREDIBLE ... all the talent we’ve let go at the GM position is mind boggling ....
You're going to post all that, throw a shot at people ignoring "facts" and ignore the questions answered with "Hue's decision."
You cherry pick and speculate on things Osweiler said to fit what you want to believe and then post it as fact.
What you're really asking me here is if I actually take the word and a quote from the actual player involved over speculation of posters on a message board. And yes, I do.
We now live in a world where actual quotes and facts don't matter. Your post is a prime example of that.
That’s your opinion on the playoffs ... I’m certainly not lowering expectations .... the talents still there ... Freddie sucked this is not an excuse but last year the injuries really hurt ... not having an OBJ with the explosion to create separation and make big plays ,,,, u combine with Bake after year 1 thinking this was going to be easy and not doing what he should have in the off season ... just getting OBJ back healthy and Bake hopefully improving immensely will improv3e the O drastically alone ...
And lucky for u, u didn’t say it was my agenda cause its the same agenda as last year ....
Would you cozy up to a new board moderator who said we need to get real posters in here? That is pretty much insulting to anyone who posts as well as all previous moderators. Or do you not see it that way?
The moderators have no control over who signs up on this board unless it's someone who was permanently banned in the past. So that point is moot.
Considering the quality of football posts from the past compared to now, I think such a moderator would be correct.
That’s your opinion on the playoffs ... I’m certainly not lowering expectations .... the talents still there ... Freddie sucked this is not an excuse but last year the injuries really hurt ... not having an OBJ with the explosion to create separation and make big plays ,,,, u combine with Bake after year 1 thinking this was going to be easy and not doing what he should have in the off season ... just getting OBJ back healthy and Bake hopefully improving immensely will improv3e the O drastically alone ...
And lucky for u, u didn’t say it was my agenda cause its the same agenda as last year ....
Last year was a wasted year with Freddie. We obviously didn't know that when the season started but we know it now. Before the season started everyone that was analyzing our Browns said two things over and over. They were that we had a 1st year HC with no HC experience and our O-line was suspect. Those were our 2 biggest flaws according to them and they were right. It came to fruition big time and ruined our season. We hopefully corrected one with KS and now we have to acquire new players to shore up our weaknesses.
All I can think about when I think about this "New Regime" is this:
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
--George Santayana
Or...
Those who get stuck in the past are left behind.
If only it were true for posters.
I think it's more like "if at first you don't succeed, Try Try again"!
Love him or hate him, Jimmy does indeed keep trying..
Unfortunately, the only thing he really tries is "something else". He has no plan, and he never sticks with what he starts. He just restarts for the sake of something new.
Based on last year's records. That is a farce. The Bengals will have Joe Burrow, the Colts will likely have a new QB (Philip Rivers?), the Raiders will be playing in a different state, the Steelers will have Roethlisberger, the Texans roster will be weakened by their lack of draft picks, the Giants will have Daniel Jones starting the whole season, the Cowboys have a new coaching staff, the Titans may or may not have a new QB and running back, etc.
After the draft, when the Vegas odds are set for the most part, the real strength of schedule projections will come out. Those will show the real story.
That usually means the team was changing his authority in some manner and John couldn't agree with those new terms. I don't think Dorsey went to Haslams office and was told he was fired.
Oh...I meant to add...I agree there was some strain between Dorsey, Depo, and Berry. Just days on the job Dorsey came out with his famous line, "Those guys didn't get real players".
You think that might have caused some tension in the building?
If analytics is just another tool provided...to be used by the coaching staff and scouting department, why would there be tension in the building?
If the Browns were simply using analytics as a tool to help address the "uncertainty", why would there be tension in the building.
Because Dorsey insulted 2 of his sr. staff in a public way..
That’s your opinion on the playoffs ... I’m certainly not lowering expectations .... the talents still there ... Freddie sucked this is not an excuse but last year the injuries really hurt ... not having an OBJ with the explosion to create separation and make big plays ,,,, u combine with Bake after year 1 thinking this was going to be easy and not doing what he should have in the off season ... just getting OBJ back healthy and Bake hopefully improving immensely will improv3e the O drastically alone ...
And lucky for u, u didn’t say it was my agenda cause its the same agenda as last year ....
I expect the playoffs. My standards for a long time. I also didn't say you had an agenda because you mostly don't. That comment was aimed at those who will use a non-playoff season as their reasoning that Depo and others failed and must go.
You know they are out there.
I looked forward to going to a game with you last year but we couldn't work it out schedule wise. Maybe next season.
The schedule comes out around April 20 something. I know by May which games I am going to, which not, and which I might have 1 open seat.
Based on last year's records. That is a farce. The Bengals will have Joe Burrow, the Colts will likely have a new QB (Philip Rivers?), the Raiders will be playing in a different state, the Steelers will have Roethlisberger, the Texans roster will be weakened by their lack of draft picks, the Giants will have Daniel Jones starting the whole season, the Cowboys have a new coaching staff, the Titans may or may not have a new QB and running back, etc.
After the draft, when the Vegas odds are set for the most part, the real strength of schedule projections will come out. Those will show the real story.
Based on last year's records. That is a farce. The Bengals will have Joe Burrow, the Colts will likely have a new QB (Philip Rivers?), the Raiders will be playing in a different state, the Steelers will have Roethlisberger, the Texans roster will be weakened by their lack of draft picks, the Giants will have Daniel Jones starting the whole season, the Cowboys have a new coaching staff, the Titans may or may not have a new QB and running back, etc.
After the draft, when the Vegas odds are set for the most part, the real strength of schedule projections will come out. Those will show the real story.
With all that said, 6-10.
6-10 guarantees starting over with a new QB.
Sounds about right. I am now even more confident in my prediction. Especially because 6-10 is bad but not bad enough to draft Trevor Lawrence.
alk all you want about instilling a winning culture, but it's obvious that Dorsey was not the guy to do that.
LOL...............but, Depo, Berry, and rest of that crew who went 1 and 31 were the guys to instill a winning culture?
Are y'all for real? Seriously!
What's Dorsey's failure to manage and instill a proper culture have to do with DePo, Berry, and crew?
I don't know if they can put one together. I do know however that their guiding philosophy of having a unified vision and making all decisions in the direction of achieving that unified vision paramount IS a recipe for a winning culture.
Spin and fabricate all you want, but everyone we have in place currently came to the position with a reputation of being able to work with others. You can't say that about guys like Dorsey and Hue no matter how much you plug your ears and close your eyes and yell "I can't hear you! I can't hear you!"
Look, the fact of the matter is that the Browns need DePo more than DePo needs the Browns. The field of applied analytics is in great demand across different industries, a field that DePo is highly regarded in no matter how much you and mac and others try to poop talk him.
I don't fabricate things.
Depo, Berry, and the rest of the analytics guys were here before and it led to 1 and 31. That's not a spin. It's a fact.
There was all kinds of in-house problems where they kept information from the coaches, got rid of players the coaches praised, and people were talking to Jimmy about other folks behind their backs. Wylie's comments in the Benjamin Allbright reports were very telling of the dysfunction in Berea.
My feeling is that there were issues between Dorsey and some of the holdovers from the Sashi regime. It's my contention that it is more likely that most of the problems came from those guys rather than Dorsey.
I am fine w/you not agreeing and won't resort to making personal comments about you to "prove" my point.
My feeling is that there were issues between Dorsey and some of the holdovers from the Sashi regime. It's my contention that it is more likely that most of the problems came from those guys rather than Dorsey.
I don't know who was at fault. I do know that Jimmy Haslam is to blame for creating these sorts of divisions. He hired John Dorsey to do a job but then kept a bunch of the people from the previous regime. That's not how things work. Haslam wanted to have his cake (Dorsey) and eat it oo (analytics). He should have been all in on Dorsey once he gave him the keys to the team. Instead he created silos.
Hopefully (my hopes are not high) this new structure will lead to a more cohesive organization with everyone working toward the same goal using the same tools and processes.
I agree w/that post. I was thinking about things after I made my latest post. It occurred to me that the forced marriage of Dorsey, Highsmith, Wolf, etc to Depo, Berry, etc was a difficult thing for both sides. It's not hard to imagine that they might naturally be at odds w/one another.
Haslam is always the core of the problems. The Seth Wickersham article was so enlightening on many levels, but I'll just use the part that addresses your point. It was amazing that there were so many people who talked to SW about how Jimmy would always be talking to them in the facility and encouraging folks to talk to him privately. It may not have been intentional, but it sounded like he created an environment that pitted folks against one another.
If you think about, each and every group that has been in there under Haslam's ownership has had embarrassing episodes of dysfunction. I don't think it is a stretch to say that Jimmy is the common denominator.
I don't know if this is true or not, but I wonder if guys like McDaniels and Paton didn't want their respective jobs after their lengthy interviews and learned what the infrastructure was like in Berea?
I don't know if this is true or not, but I wonder if guys like McDaniels and Paton didn't want their respective jobs after their lengthy interviews and learned what the infrastructure was like in Berea?
From what I can gather, McDaniels wanted to gut everything from the ground up and remove Haslam from the process altogether. That wasn't going to fly because Haslam wants to be involved (as is his right).
Paton is more complicated because of his history turning down jobs. My guess is that the combination of the lack of stability along with, possibly, not being the favorite for the job spooked him.
I don't know if this is true or not, but I wonder if guys like McDaniels and Paton didn't want their respective jobs after their lengthy interviews and learned what the infrastructure was like in Berea?
From what I can gather, McDaniels wanted to gut everything from the ground up and remove Haslam from the process altogether. That wasn't going to fly because Haslam wants to be involved (as is his right).
Paton is more complicated because of his history turning down jobs. My guess is that the combination of the lack of stability along with, possibly, not being the favorite for the job spooked him.
McDaniels wanted a structure where he controlled who was involved.
No way Jimmy was having that.
Jimmy is undoubtedly the root of everything wrong with the Browns. At this point it's not even debatable.
Could be. I was just wondering because I think they both had interviews that lasted over 7 hours and then were out of the running. Seemed strange to me. Your explanations make sense.
The Haslams buying the team is the worst thing to ever happen to the Browns and Browns fans.
I really did not like Junior and was so happy when Haslam bought the team. I remember him talking of his time w/the Steelers and the importance of giving guys time to do their jobs. LMAO!!!
The Haslams buying the team is the worst thing to ever happen to the Browns and Browns fans.
I really did not like Junior and was so happy when Haslam bought the team. I remember him talking of his time w/the Steelers and the importance of giving guys time to do their jobs. LMAO!!!
He might even be worse than Junior!
Out of all of the major sports, in modern history, Haslam's winning % is the worst .... even worse than Ted Stepien.
Right now, counting seasons 2012 to present, (and I give him full credit for 2012, even though he didn't buy the team until October, it was in process) 33-94-1. 128 games, and Jimma has managed to win just over 25% of them. (26.2% of game won .... rounded up) I have read that his is the only team in the NFL to not have a winning record during his term of ownership.
That really gives me a ton of confidence in his decisions.
By the way, prior to Dorsey, his record was 20-76, and his winning % was 20.1%. (also rounded up)
You go do you Jimma. It's your toy, and your money. Go be the worst team owner in NFL history. Oh wait ... you already are.
He was a partial Steelers owner prior to owning the Browns. Can anyone convince me he's not trying to intentionally sabotage the Browns to help the Steelers?
He was a partial Steelers owner prior to owning the Browns. Can anyone convince me he's not trying to intentionally sabotage the Browns to help the Steelers?
That’d at least bring some sense to the BS the thief does ...
Dorsey basically said we didn't have any real players on the team.
Depodesta has claimed, many times, that he does not pick the players and analytics is just one tool to be used to help judge players...
...why would Dorsey's comment create tension within the Browns front office?
Well, because at best it was an unprofessional thing to say. It establishes a level of disdain on Dorsey's part for what they have to contribute.
If someone who has already been briefed on what the Browns are working on, is brash (or arrogant) enough to make that statement right after getting hired, it's not unreasonable to think that he continued with that attitude throughout his tenure. DePo is the "Chief Strategy Officer" .. so not only is he responsible for developing the numbers, he's also in charge of the overall direction and plan for the organization.
Do you really think it wouldn't cause tension when the Chief Strategy Officer is saddled with Dorsey who immediately dismisses out of hand your contributions past and present, and makes decisions at best not in alignment and at worst in direct contradiction to the organizational strategy?
It still remains to be seen if Stefanski is the correct answer, but DePo was right back then that Freddie was the wrong answer. I'd bet that it didn't take analytics to come to that conclusion either...
He was a partial Steelers owner prior to owning the Browns. Can anyone convince me he's not trying to intentionally sabotage the Browns to help the Steelers?
I believe he wants a successful franchise, both on the field and off. I also believe he’s embarrassed by the record we’ve had since he bought the Browns, and wants to be part of an NFL team that is admired and respected.
I also believe he’s terrible at being an NFL owner and can’t organize a three-car funeral procession.
He was a partial Steelers owner prior to owning the Browns. Can anyone convince me he's not trying to intentionally sabotage the Browns to help the Steelers?
I believe he wants a successful franchise, both on the field and off. I also believe he’s embarrassed by the record we’ve had since he bought the Browns, and wants to be part of an NFL team that is admired and respected.
I also believe he’s terrible at being an NFL owner and can’t organize a three-car funeral procession.
It seems, according to some, it was Depodesta who turned the Browns around. The writer also acknowledges that Depodesta has had more power within the franchise than Jimmy Haslam wants to admit.
It sounds like Depodesta does an excellent job of hiding behind the scenes playing the analytics guy.
Good read...
How did a Moneyball analytics geek turn the Cleveland Browns into a contender? Paul DePodesta is way ahead of the schedule imagined by Theo Epstein.SHARE TWEET By Mark Dunphy, Sports Co-op
In 2017, a reporter asked Theo Epstein about potentially transitioning from being a baseball president to an NFL general manager. The question was prompted by an MLB front-office executive, Paul DePodesta, who switched sports to take over as chief strategy officer for the Cleveland Browns.Epstein demurred.
“I know how long you have to be around the game of baseball before you can develop the right kind of instincts and intuition,” the former Red Sox GM and current Chicago Cubs president replied. “I wouldn’t presume to be able to do that in another sport. I think that would take 10 years to get up to speed.”It seems DePodesta is ahead of schedule. Since his hiring in January of 2016, the Browns have seen a dive to rock-bottom — a 1-31 record over the 2016 and 2017 seasons — followed by a resurgence led by rookie quarterback Baker Mayfield.
Mayfield set the first-year mark for touchdown passes (27) in the Browns best season since 2007. Seven coaches have come and gone since former Patriots defensive coordinator Romeo Crennel led Cleveland to a winning record that year. This offseason, the Browns added serious firepower to both offense and defense for Mayfield’s sophomore campaign.
Cleveland acquired star wide receiver Odell Beckham Jr. and defensive end Olivier Vernon in trades with the New York Giants. The franchise also signed defensive tackle Sheldon Richardson and running back Kareem Hunt in free agency. Hunt, who was released by the Kansas City Chiefs after video surfaced of him kicking a woman in a Cleveland hotel, is suspended for the first eight games of the season.The foundation for the Browns’ turnaround was laid in the draft — and the atrocious seasons that gave them back-to-back top picks. Cleveland selected Myles Garrett, a Pro Bowler last season, first overall in 2017, then hit again with Mayfield.
At the NFL Combine before last year’s draft, Mayfield sounded plenty confident about the Browns’ future if they chose him.“
I think if anybody’s going to turn that franchise around it would be me,” Mayfield said. “They’re close. They’re very close. They have the right pieces. I think they just need one guy, a quarterback to make that difference.”Mayfield certainly deserves the bulk of the credit for Cleveland’s turnaround, but DePodesta was involved in assembling a roster that needed only that one last puzzle piece.
In Moneyball, a 2011 film based on Michael Lewis’s book about Billy Beane and the analytics revolution, Jonah Hill portrays DePodesta as a number-crunching assistant GM who helps shape the Oakland A’s into a contender. Two years after Hollywood’s portrayal of that fateful season, Epstein would use a similar model in Boston to lift the Red Sox to a World Series title.
DePodesta became the GM of the Los Angeles Dodgers at age 31, then served as an executive for the San Diego Padres and New York Mets before the Browns lured him to football. It would be a mistake to view his philosophy as based solely in statistics.
When he was hired by Cleveland alongside Sashi Brown, a cap-space-guru-turned-GM, DePodesta said that he views analytics as a way to use information to inform decisions and seek an advantage.
“Analytics is not about sitting behind a computer and pushing enter and having it produce an answer,” he said, per ESPN. “This game is not a simulation. It’s played by real people and because of that, there’s just a tremendous amount of uncertainty that surrounds it. For us, it’s about how we use information, how we use data to really get our arms around that uncertainty.
”The uncertainty — and an 0-12 record — were too much for Cleveland in 2017. The team fired Brown, a Boston native who had stockpiled draft picks, but retained DePodesta. The franchise had already found success in the draft, and new GM John Dorsey picked up where Brown left off in his use of draft capital and trade assets.
Even though the decision to take Mayfield was more about ignoring conventional wisdom than swapping players or picks, the past two drafts reveal Cleveland’s success in wheeling-and-dealing.In 2017, the Browns traded a fourth-round pick for Houston Texans quarterback Brock Osweiler, a 2018 second-round pick, and a 2017 sixth-round pick. That same year, Cleveland traded down in the draft. The Texans gave up two first-round picks to move up 13 slots and select quarterback DeShaun Watson.
The second-round pick from the former trade became productive running back Nick Chubb. The first-round picks from the latter turned into safety Jabrill Peppers and cornerback Denzel Ward. Ward earned a Pro Bowl nod as a rookie last season, while Peppers was part of the package that brought Odell Beckham Jr. to Cleveland.
Now, the Browns appear on the cusp of their first playoff appearance since 2002 — if not championship contention. Cleveland has the sixth-best Super Bowl odds, according to Bovada. So, how much credit does DePodesta deserve for this remarkable turnaround?
Well, Yahoo’s Charles Robinson reported in December that the chief strategy officer “has been more influential than anyone outside of the organization understands.
”Robinson believes that DePodesta has more power than most people realize, and was able to overrule the general manager in selecting Gregg Williams as interim manager last season. Of course, the fact that the report relied on conjecture emphasized how much DePodesta has been able to keep out of the spotlight, much like he did while helping build a playoff team on the diamond in Oakland.
If Mayfield — the final piece in Cleveland’s puzzle — leads the Browns to the promised land this season, DePodesta will have a hard time keeping the bright lights away.
”Robinson believes that DePodesta has more power than most people realize, and was able to overrule the general manager in selecting Gregg Williams as interim manager last season. Of course, the fact that the report relied on conjecture emphasized how much DePodesta has been able to keep out of the spotlight, much like he did while helping build a playoff team on the diamond in Oakland.
How does this guy know that? And the goof doesn't even know in football, they aren't called managers. If we weren't going to name Williams interim head coach' who was Dorsey wanting?
”Robinson believes that DePodesta has more power than most people realize, and was able to overrule the general manager in selecting Gregg Williams as interim manager last season. Of course, the fact that the report relied on conjecture emphasized how much DePodesta has been able to keep out of the spotlight, much like he did while helping build a playoff team on the diamond in Oakland.
How does this guy know that? And the goof doesn't even know in football, they aren't called managers. If we weren't going to name Williams interim head coach' who was Dorsey wanting?
Sorry, that isn't a good article at all.
Agreed. That paragraph is the only paragraph to suggest DePo had more power than anyone realizes, but admit that's based on an earlier report based on conjecture.
He has a ton of influence.. which he should considering the position he was hired for.
But power? Those aren't the same things.
Please explain then how the hiring of Hue, but I'll just take more recently, the hiring of Freddie by Dorsey was an example of DePo's power?
What because we hired the guy he recommended? It took 2 years including Dorsey falling flat on his face with Freddie before DePo was listened to That's not power, AND if anything it should call in to question just how much influence DePo really has if it takes this long for anyone to listen to him.
Number two, saying influence and power aren't the same is just semantics.
Number three, may be Depo pulls this off and it all works. Maybe the Browns finally have the right mix and are successful on the field. I don't think many people will go on record saying it's an impossibility. But to even for one second think, after all that has transpired, that Depo doesn't have a ton of sway/pull/power/influence is just burying your head in the sand.
It's like the Usual Suspects line..."The greatest trick the Browns ever pulled was convincing the world that Depo doesn't exist."
Number two, saying influence and power aren't the same is just semantics.
Number three, may be Depo pulls this off and it all works. Maybe the Browns finally have the right mix and are successful on the field. I don't think many people will go on record saying it's an impossibility. But to even for one second think, after all that has transpired, that Depo doesn't have a ton of sway/pull/power/influence is just burying your head in the sand.
It's like the Usual Suspects line..."The greatest trick the Browns ever pulled was convincing the world that Depo doesn't exist."
Who gives a [censored] what mechanism they use? I mean, really, this argument is just dumb. Who gives a flying [censored] if they read the entrails of a goat as long as they are fielding a good team?
I wish people would stop this stupid, stupid debate.
Number two, saying influence and power aren't the same is just semantics.
Number three, may be Depo pulls this off and it all works. Maybe the Browns finally have the right mix and are successful on the field. I don't think many people will go on record saying it's an impossibility. But to even for one second think, after all that has transpired, that Depo doesn't have a ton of sway/pull/power/influence is just burying your head in the sand.
It's like the Usual Suspects line..."The greatest trick the Browns ever pulled was convincing the world that Depo doesn't exist."
Who's saying he isn't in an influential position? He's the Chief Strategy Officer. It's how it should be. My only beef is with these completely fabricated narratives that DePo has been wielding this weird voodoo influence over Jimmy and that DePo has had all sorts of unchecked power since he's been here, and that that the guy has no idea what he's doing
It doesn’t matter at all what mechanism, or strategy, or scheme they use, or who does what in the building. None of it matters as long as the team on the field is winning.
People here are arguing about which bus is a better bus to get from point A to point B. It’s a mechanism, I don’t give a [censored] who makes the calls as long as they are good ones.
The whole debate about who is in charge is just stupid.
You're greatly exaggerating what people are saying.
And if you're thinking of mac, take it up with him. But he's just one poster.
But if you want to get into a debate about Depo's role in the organization, I'll say this...it's significant, has been significant, has grown more significant, and comes with a great deal of influence/power.
I don't understand how anyone who's been paying attention would walk away with any other conclusion.
You're greatly exaggerating what people are saying.
And if you're thinking of mac, take it up with him. But he's just one poster.
But if you want to get into a debate about Depo's role in the organization, I'll say this...it's significant, has been significant, has grown more significant, and comes with a great deal of influence/power.
I don't understand how anyone who's been paying attention would walk away with any other conclusion.
Now also notice I didn't say it's doomed to fail.
I will agree that DePodesta has a voice in the operation, to what extent, I have no way of discerning.
I will agree that DePodesta has a voice in the operation, to what extent, I have no way of discerning.
They just signed the HC he wanted as far back as last year. That should speak volumes to anyone listening. They brought back Berry who was someone Depo worked with in the past. One thing anyone who isn't wearing blinders has to understand, Depo has more influence now than he's ever had before. How that plays out is anyone's guess. But we've seen a big part of this movie before.
I wonder how hard people would have hit the roof last year if we had hired someone from outside the organization, who had exactly 3 games of play calling experience?
I will agree that DePodesta has a voice in the operation, to what extent, I have no way of discerning.
They just signed the HC he wanted as far back as last year. That should speak volumes to anyone listening. They brought back Berry who was someone Depo worked with in the past. One thing anyone who isn't wearing blinders has to understand, Depo has more influence now than he's ever had before. How that plays out is anyone's guess. But we've seen a big part of this movie before.
Hopefully Hue has no power/influence/voodoo/cameos this time. He was the Jar Jar Binks of that movie. He ruined what may have otherwise been a decent film.
A movie filled with a lot of stage setting and getting things ready for the sequels, so it wouldn't have been the most exciting thing ever. But, without that awful miscast character, it might not have been the travesty it was.
The roster assembled point to the fact it wasn't "all Hue". He did suck as the HC. That we certainly agree on. But nobody can actually look at that roster and claim it was not also a huge problem.
Just more info concerning who's been running the Browns...
Report: Paul DePodesta has increased influence inside Cleveland Browns organization
According to Charles Robinson of Yahoo Sports, chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta has had a louder voice inside the Cleveland Browns' organization in recent months.
Author: Ben Axelrod Published: 12:50 PM EST December 24, 2018 Updated: 2:46 PM EST December 24, 2018
CLEVELAND -- When the Cleveland Browns fired general manager Sashi Brown a year ago, many seemed to think it marked the end of the team's analytics era.
It appears, however, that thought may have been premature.
Following the Browns' 26-18 victory over the Cincinnati Bengals on Sunday, Charles Robinson of Yahoo Sports took a look at interim head coach Gregg Williams' chances of keeping his job past this season. In doing so, Robinson revealed that while general manager John Dorsey has received much of the credit for Cleveland's turnaround this season, chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta's influence inside the organization is seemingly growing.
Wrote Robinson: "After some conversations with those who know the Browns, I’m now more certain than ever that chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta has been more influential than anyone outside of the organization understands. I think everyone (including me) has been led astray about the current power structure in Cleveland. Especially where it concerns Dorsey."
To illustrate his point, Robinson pointed to the October firing of offensive coordinator Todd Haley, who many believed would succeed former head coach Hue Jackson upon whenever he was fired.
"Here’s what is clear: Haley believed he was in line to step into the interim coaching job if Hue was fired, and he got that belief from Dorsey and some of Dorsey’s subordinates on the personnel side of the organization. And when that didn’t happen and Haley was fired, he was completely blindsided by it," Robinson wrote. "Which means one of two things – either Dorsey and his subordinates stabbed Haley in the back (which they didn’t), or Dorsey was overruled in the process when it came to his chosen interim. I believe it was the latter, with DePodesta having a more significant hand in the process than anyone realized and Haslam giving the green light to fire Haley. Boiled down, I think DePodesta has more power than most people realize, while Dorsey has less."
What that means for the Browns remains unclear, but it's noteworthy nonetheless. While many assumed DePodesta's voice was diminished following the firing of Brown, the opposite appears to be true, which could be a reason the team drafted quarterback Baker Mayfield -- a darling of the analytics community.
A former baseball general manager who helped usher in the sport's "Moneyball" era, DePodesta's link to analytics has been well documented. And while Dorsey said upon his own hiring that he planned on still incorporating an analytical approach, perhaps the Browns are doing so even more than he anticipated they would.
Who gives a [censored] what mechanism they use? I mean, really, this argument is just dumb. Who gives a flying [censored] if they read the entrails of a goat as long as they are fielding a good team?
I wish people would stop this stupid, stupid debate.
Never heard you complain about this when folks complained loudly and constantly for the last few years after Sashi was fired.
I do agree that the debate is stupid, but probably for the exact opposite reason you do. In another thread you mentioned it didn't matter who was driving the bus as long as the team wins. The fact of the matter that it does matter who is driving the bus when it comes to wins and losses. Haslam, in all his tampering glory, decided to fire Dorsey who went 13-18-1 and stocking the roster w/talent and instead go back to the guys who went 1 and 31 in two years and made terrible player evaluation time after time.
So yeah, I guess it is stupid for anyone to debate that these moves are making the team better. It is laughable to even contemplate how anyone can debate that the Browns are better off for firing Dorsey and his crew and bringing back the guys who had the worst record in the league. Yet somehow, some folks are incredulous as to how anyone would doubt that Jimmy just screwed up again.
I mean, we get rid of Dorsey who helped develop the Super Bowl winning champs in KC and has made significant improvements to the Browns roster and replaced him w/a group that has done what? Seriously, what football teams did Depo help before he got here? And the dude can't even commit to Cleveland and instead resides in lovely San Diego. LOL...........it's like one of the greatest cons of all-freaking-time.
So again, I agree w/you that it is is a stupid debate.
I will agree that DePodesta has a voice in the operation, to what extent, I have no way of discerning.
They just signed the HC he wanted as far back as last year. That should speak volumes to anyone listening. They brought back Berry who was someone Depo worked with in the past. One thing anyone who isn't wearing blinders has to understand, Depo has more influence now than he's ever had before. How that plays out is anyone's guess. But we've seen a big part of this movie before.
Good, I am glad he does. Jimmy as found his voice of reason. We should all be happy.
It appears, however, that thought may have been premature.
Quote:
Paul DePodesta's influence inside the organization is seemingly growing.
Quote:
Wrote Robinson: "After some conversations with those who know the Browns, I’m now more certain than ever that chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta has been more influential than anyone outside of the organization understands. I think everyone (including me) has been led astray about the current power structure in Cleveland. Especially where it concerns Dorsey."
Quote:
"Here’s what is clear: Haley believed he was in line to step into the interim coaching job if Hue was fired, and he got that belief from Dorsey and some of Dorsey’s subordinates on the personnel side of the organization. And when that didn’t happen and Haley was fired, he was completely blindsided by it," Robinson wrote. "Which means one of two things – either Dorsey and his subordinates stabbed Haley in the back (which they didn’t), or Dorsey was overruled in the process when it came to his chosen interim. I believe it was the latter, with DePodesta having a more significant hand in the process than anyone realized and Haslam giving the green light to fire Haley. Boiled down, I think DePodesta has more power than most people realize, while Dorsey has less."
Quote:
What that means for the Browns remains unclear, but it's noteworthy nonetheless. While many assumed DePodesta's voice was diminished following the firing of Brown, the opposite appears to be true, which could be a reason the team drafted quarterback Baker Mayfield -- a darling of the analytics community.
WOW was that Charles Robinson, Ben Axelrod, or Roger Brown.
seemed to think, it appears, seemingly growing, I’m now more certain than ever, I think everyone, who many believed, I believe it, I think, perhaps.
100 percent opinion piece. From a guy who doesn't know.
As I said in another thread, cutting these players and adding BETTER players, improving the talent level of the team should be Depodesta's goal...
...if the Browns primary goal is save cap space and filling the openings with questionable talent or players with less talent...that would be a losing strategy IF THE BROWNS GOAL IS TO WIN.
The Browns/Depodesta's goal should be to improve the talent level of the team.
As has been said already... I don't think anyone will more than halfheartedly argue against releasing any of these players.
Carrie was overpaid. People were arguing he was overpaid the day we brought him in... and if forced to say yes or no, I would agree. Definitely not the worst FA contract given out, but we overpaid a bit. Mitchell had him beat out from day 1.
I would've preferred Harris get cut after he got beat out by a new person in TC. I hate making weak units weaker before we bring in replacements. Still, Harris is Just A Guy, so the braintrust should be able to find a body or two that are significant improvements.
As I said in another thread, cutting these players and adding BETTER players, improving the talent level of the team should be Depodesta's goal...
...if the Browns primary goal is save cap space and filling the openings with questionable talent or players with less talent...that would be a losing strategy IF THE BROWNS GOAL IS TO WIN.
The Browns/Depodesta's goal should be to improve the talent level of the team.
The goal/plan is probably to underpay for ascending talent rather than overpay for descending talent. Lock down the greats, but otherwise go young. That's how the NFL is setup. Mid-level vets get squeezed out or agree to team friendly deals.
If this helps us hang onto some of our talent that could walk and/or shore up weak units via FA, you won't see anything other than thumbs up or smiles from me.
As I said in another thread, cutting these players and adding BETTER players, improving the talent level of the team should be Depodesta's goal...
...if the Browns primary goal is save cap space and filling the openings with questionable talent or players with less talent...that would be a losing strategy IF THE BROWNS GOAL IS TO WIN.
The Browns/Depodesta's goal should be to improve the talent level of the team.
The goal/plan is probably to underpay for ascending talent rather than overpay for descending talent. Lock down the greats, but otherwise go young. That's how the NFL is setup. Mid-level vets get squeezed out or agree to team friendly deals.
It is the plan.
It costs more and more to sign the top 30% of the leagues players. Teams have a spending floor. They spend for those guys. They save money by squeezing the 4-5 year vet who is decent, but not a great player.
That vet is going to be better than most you draft in any given year, but if you have contracts for guys like Mayfield, Garrett, Chubb and a few others, you have to save money somewhere.
It's like that on every team. The more contracts you have worth keeping the harder the choices become.
I don't have any real problem with cutting any of the players they cut. Harris, Kush, and Taylor were real non-factors. Carrie probably was over-priced for his production. These are the kinds of moves that happen every off-season.
Some people raised Cain when we cut Collins last year as well. However, he was not worth what he was being paid based on his play here. Also, based on the fact that we were moving to a 4-2-5 alignment as our primary defense, it made perfect sense that he would be the 1st one out the door.
There is usually little real controversy in the 1st moves a team makes after the season.
Not necessarily responding to you prp..but responding to many who posted above your post.
What did I say...
Quote:
...if the Browns primary goal is save cap space and filling the openings with questionable talent or players with less talent...that would be a losing strategy IF THE BROWNS GOAL IS TO WIN.
If the Browns are simply operating off of some pre-conceived notion that "the cap dollars are more important than the quality of players" that ultimately replace those that are cut...that idea could be a crap shoot, hit or miss, or a constant loser idea.
These particular players, with the exception of Taylor, were at the least, depth at positions where durability and injuries must be considered...they started when needed. There is value in quality depth.
Finding "cheap players" to replace the players being cut...that is easy.
Finding players who are capable of stepping in to start or play when needed...that is a bit harder to find.
It might be interesting to know what value the numbers boys place on quality depth?
Hopefully the numbers boys will add better players than they are releasing.
...if the Browns primary goal is save cap space and filling the openings with questionable talent or players with less talent...that would be a losing strategy IF THE BROWNS GOAL IS TO TO WIN
Do ya think? You should invoke the 24hr rule between typing and posting.
Yeah, we went from one of the least talented rosters in the NFL to a roster everyone in the nation was talking about being in the playoffs. That sure upset me.....
I thought it was obvious that this is now DePodesta's team and the first year that it is under his rule this is the dawning of the age of DePo for the Browns. He does not Micromanage so Berry does his job and Stepanaski does his.
Gosh I'm probably doing names like Diam...lol
Anyways don't forget the 8 mil we are saving from not resigning Robinsion let alone those we just cut.
I thought it was obvious that this is now DePodesta's team and the first year that it is under his rule this is the dawning of the age of DePo for the Browns.
Depodesta has been running this team for 4 years now...especially the years 2016, 2017 and 2019.
I've been trying to explain to some of the folks on this board how much Depodesta was in control since he joined the team in 2016. Depodesta convinced Jimmy that he could do the Moneyball thing with the Browns and Jimmy bought it.
So the argument now is that we need to keep high priced players that suck on our roster? Are we calling back Kenny Britt? Andre Rison?
DD...I thought I made it clear...that there is nothing wrong with cutting players if you replace them with better players.
Kinda hard to find FAs or unsigned rookies to fill in and/or start 5 or 6 games if injuries pile up. The quality of a teams depth can make the difference between winning or losing.
I thought the Browns had a goal of improving the talent on the roster and trying to make the playoffs?
I thought it was obvious that this is now DePodesta's team and the first year that it is under his rule this is the dawning of the age of DePo for the Browns.
Depodesta has been running this team for 4 years now...especially the years 2016, 2017 and 2019.
I've been trying to explain to some of the folks on this board how much Depodesta was in control since he joined the team in 2016. Depodesta convinced Jimmy that he could do the Moneyball thing with the Browns and Jimmy bought it.
Depodesta can do no wrong...
Do you drink a lot before you post? Same [censored], day after day after day.
There is no doubt that Dorsey has been our best GM since the return. And there is also no doubt that he should not have been fired. I agree the real player comment probably did not go over too well but they were shredding payroll and cutting proven veterans as well as trading down too often to collect capital. Absolutely deserving the real player quote.
There is no doubt Dorsey sealed his future with the hiring of Freddie but I do not feel it was the correct move. Nobody is perfect and as many have posted getting any kind of positive consistency from this team might not ever happen with Haslem in charge.
What bothers me most is that Haslem has admitted to being too impatient and that he would be more patient. NOPE!!!!! Farmer and Savage were given much more rope and had half the production of Dorsey. (I know Savage was from a previous regime)
It is hard for me to lump Berry in with Sashi and Depo as I strongly believe it was Sashi's plan to tear the team down to the bones and build a foundation of cap space and draft capital. A plan Sashi implemented to a T. However, I believe that Hue should have been able to achieve at least three wins each year. But I will say that with Kizer and the QB carousel the following year I am not surprised by the record.
So I sit here cautiously optimistic moving into this season. The talent is there. I do like the staff. We will see what Berry can do throughout the FA period and draft. I hope he is better than past GM's we have had but we will have to wait and see.
75...I can't disagree with anything in your post..good post.
I think that most realize that Depodesta is the man in charge and the defacto GM, with the power to hire and fire and the final approval on major personnel moves. He interacts with the Haslams, including them, thus they feel involved, which is good for Depo's job security. It never hurts to brown nose the boss!
The question will be how well the analytics side works with the football side? Will Depodesta simply fire those who disagree with his point of view?
Another question will be how much Depodesta wants to depend on "analytics" to base their draft choices on?
I hope Andrew Berry will speak up and challenge Depo, when needed. There must be a good mix of the use of analytics and football knowledge is this is going to work.
From some information I read recently, the 2 teams that were in the Super Bowl, do not rely on analytics that much to base their draft picks on.
I just find it ..... odd ..... that the Browns supposedly have the GM/HC/Depodesta set up as a tri-pod, each reporting to Haslem ..... yet who set up the interview process(es) for HC and GM, and who had a vote in each case?
It seems odd that Depodesta would be on equal footing with Berry and Stefanski, when he helped hire both.
explain? that would require facts. The BS alarms come out when u designate 16,17 n 19...skipping 18 making it up as u go along...smh
By his own account he was in a study mode and learning it is only this year he has come out of the woodwork and took control and visual control. While all you are doing is making stuff up.
This is the dawning of the DePodesta era. This year 2020. Has put together some analytical programs in the past 4 years. I'm sure he has but he has not had "CONTROL" of the team. Full Control. This is the first time he has been recognized conducting the process. No need to make up stuff. There is a clear difference from years past and this year.
I just find it ..... odd ..... that the Browns supposedly have the GM/HC/Depodesta set up as a tri-pod, each reporting to Haslem ..... yet who set up the interview process(es) for HC and GM, and who had a vote in each case?It seems odd that Depodesta would be on equal footing with Berry and Stefanski, when he helped hire both.
Quote:
I just find it ..... odd ..... that the Browns supposedly have the GM/HC/Depodesta set up as a tri-pod, each reporting to Haslem ..... yet who set up the interview process(es) for HC and GM, and who had a vote in each case?
JCing...
YT...IMO, how that turned out, was not an accident but intended to insure that Depo had the deck stacked in his favor from the beginning of the hiring process. Hiring the coach before hiring the GM insured that Depodesta's preference, Stefanski, would have Depo's assurance that Stefanski would get the job.
It has been reported that Dee (and possibly Jimmy) preferred hiring Josh McDaniels for the HC job. As a NFL franchise, you don't bring and coaching candidate back for a second interview AND INVITE HIS WIFE to join the candidate on that visit, unless you are ready to offer the job to that candidate.
Somebody put the kibosh on the Josh McDaniels hire and it most likely was Depodesta, who very likely would have been out of a job if McDaniels had been hired as the Browns HC. Chances are that McDaniels would have used analytics in the same proportion that Belechick used analytics in New England, which would mean that Depo and his analytics program would no longer be needed by the Browns.
I can only imagine the conversations that took place between Depodesta and Haslam, from the time that McDaniels and his wife "landed in Cleveland" on Jan 10, 2020 to the time "they left Cleveland" on Jan. 10, 2020, "WITHOUT" a commitment from Jimmy and Dee Haslam.
The Haslames reputation likely hit rock bottom among the NFL eletes thanks to the obvious snub of the Haslams. Again, you don't invite a candidate's wife to join her husband on a second interview unless you are prepared to offer the job to that candidate.
Who was responsible for the change of heart?...the guy who had the most to lose...Depodesta. Jimmy listened to Depo and instead of hiring a coach who very likely grew up as a Browns fan decades before Jimma and De even thought about buying the Browns historic franchise ...Jimma and De listened to the advise of their "west coast" employee who comes and goes as he sees fit...who is virtually running the Browns franchise on a part-time basis while he builds, promotes and operates his own west coast business.
Quote:
It seems odd that Depodesta would be on equal footing with Berry and Stefanski, when he helped hire both.
Reality is, Depodesta is NOT ON EQUAL FOOTING with Berry and Stefanski. Depodesta is above "EVERYONE" within the franchise and his power includes the right to "hire and fire" everyone but the owners of the franchise.
Depodesta is a master manipulator, using his power to establish guidelines as to how the Browns should be managed and how the franchise should operate. Depodesta would not be in such a powerful position without the support of ownership.
Ownership simply follows Depo's lead, preferring to follow, rather than lead the franchise. The foundation to win is in place and hopefully "Moneyball" will not interfere with the growth of the franchise.
Depodesta needs to take a step back, allowing Stefanski and his coaches to do their job without interference from guy in charge, Depodesta.
BTW, Depodesta's west coast business features his employment with the Browns as a marketing campaign to promote his personal business, located in San Diego, CA.
I do wonder if the Haslams might be invested in Depodesta's business venture, which was launched in 2012, at the same time Depodesta was hired by Haslam...
Josh McDaniels brought his wife to the only interview this year, because she wanted to visit her parents. They are local.
McDaniels has been attributed to the quote that the Browns were delusional, thinking they had the talent to win now. Somehow, that seems to be the greater reason, other than a Depo veto of the move, as to why McDaniels was not hired.
I think that most realize that Depodesta is the man in charge and the defacto GM, with the power to hire and fire and the final approval on major personnel moves. He interacts with the Haslams, including them, thus they feel involved, which is good for Depo's job security. It never hurts to brown nose the boss!
You really need to start your posts with “Once upon a time,” “Long ago,” or “Once there was a
I just find it ..... odd ..... that the Browns supposedly have the GM/HC/Depodesta set up as a tri-pod, each reporting to Haslem ..... yet who set up the interview process(es) for HC and GM, and who had a vote in each case?It seems odd that Depodesta would be on equal footing with Berry and Stefanski, when he helped hire both.
Quote:
I just find it ..... odd ..... that the Browns supposedly have the GM/HC/Depodesta set up as a tri-pod, each reporting to Haslem ..... yet who set up the interview process(es) for HC and GM, and who had a vote in each case?
JCing...
YT...IMO, how that turned out, was not an accident but intended to insure that Depo had the deck stacked in his favor from the beginning of the hiring process. Hiring the coach before hiring the GM insured that Depodesta's preference, Stefanski, would have Depo's assurance that Stefanski would get the job.
It has been reported that Dee (and possibly Jimmy) preferred hiring Josh McDaniels for the HC job. As a NFL franchise, you don't bring and coaching candidate back for a second interview AND INVITE HIS WIFE to join the candidate on that visit, unless you are ready to offer the job to that candidate.
Somebody put the kibosh on the Josh McDaniels hire and it most likely was Depodesta, who very likely would have been out of a job if McDaniels had been hired as the Browns HC. Chances are that McDaniels would have used analytics in the same proportion that Belechick used analytics in New England, which would mean that Depo and his analytics program would no longer be needed by the Browns.
I can only imagine the conversations that took place between Depodesta and Haslam, from the time that McDaniels and his wife "landed in Cleveland" on Jan 10, 2020 to the time "they left Cleveland" on Jan. 10, 2020, "WITHOUT" a commitment from Jimmy and Dee Haslam.
The Haslames reputation likely hit rock bottom among the NFL eletes thanks to the obvious snub of the Haslams. Again, you don't invite a candidate's wife to join her husband on a second interview unless you are prepared to offer the job to that candidate.
Who was responsible for the change of heart?...the guy who had the most to lose...Depodesta. Jimmy listened to Depo and instead of hiring a coach who very likely grew up as a Browns fan decades before Jimma and De even thought about buying the Browns historic franchise ...Jimma and De listened to the advise of their "west coast" employee who comes and goes as he sees fit...who is virtually running the Browns franchise on a part-time basis while he builds, promotes and operates his own west coast business.
Quote:
It seems odd that Depodesta would be on equal footing with Berry and Stefanski, when he helped hire both.
Reality is, Depodesta is NOT ON EQUAL FOOTING with Berry and Stefanski. Depodesta is above "EVERYONE" within the franchise and his power includes the right to "hire and fire" everyone but the owners of the franchise.
Depodesta is a master manipulator, using his power to establish guidelines as to how the Browns should be managed and how the franchise should operate. Depodesta would not be in such a powerful position without the support of ownership.
Ownership simply follows Depo's lead, preferring to follow, rather than lead the franchise. The foundation to win is in place and hopefully "Moneyball" will not interfere with the growth of the franchise.
Depodesta needs to take a step back, allowing Stefanski and his coaches to do their job without interference from guy in charge, Depodesta.
BTW, Depodesta's west coast business features his employment with the Browns as a marketing campaign to promote his personal business, located in San Diego, CA.
I do wonder if the Haslams might be invested in Depodesta's business venture, which was launched in 2012, at the same time Depodesta was hired by Haslam...
...just win..that is all I want!
Either stop drinking before posting or pick another subject. You sound insane.
A lifetime fan of the Cleveland Browns since you were 10 or 11 years old?
I have no doubt that you and I are on the same page, believing the Browns are capable of making it to the playoffs in 2020.
Hope always springs eternal. I’d love to see the Browns win, and, win for many seasons to come. We are not any different as fans, you and I, however, the constant posting about the front office has worn thin. As I’ve said in many a post, it doesn’t matter in the end. Who does what how and with what tools,simply doesn’t matter. As long as the team is winning, what happens in the front office is meaningless.
A lifetime fan of the Cleveland Browns since you were 10 or 11 years old?
I have no doubt that you and I are on the same page, believing the Browns are capable of making it to the playoffs in 2020.
Hope always springs eternal. I’d love to see the Browns win, and, win for many seasons to come. We are not any different as fans, you and I, however, the constant posting about the front office has worn thin. As I’ve said in many a post, it doesn’t matter in the end. Who does what how and with what tools,simply doesn’t matter. As long as the team is winning, what happens in the front office is meaningless.
I understand your point, but there were plenty of folks who complained and complained and complained about Sashi being fired. They trashed Hue. They trashed Dorsey. They said weird things like "Sashi died so we could live." They made really odd comments like "Landry can't catch a pass over 2 yards." They pimped guys like Nassib. They were much more vocal than the guys questioning Depo's role.
Yet, I never heard you utter a word towards them. I never heard you say that the subject had worn thin.
If you are being honest, why would a couple of months of fewer daily critical posts about the guys in charge irritate you more than three straight freaking years of whining and complaining about the guys in charge and the guy who was fired?
Your characterization is an embellishment. People say things like "Sashi died so we could live" just to get under your skin because you never let anything go. You invite comments and topics to stick around by being passive aggressive. You can never just post your thoughts on a subject and move on. You always have to add "I hope I can post this without any insults"...or my personal fave of "...you're a really good poster but now you're acting like those other guys"...just post what you have to post without the melodramatics. If you're not going to do that then own the fact that you're a drama and conflict magnet and stop playing the victim.
Yet in almost every case when it comes to the NFL, when a regime leaves, they all pretty much leave. You don't have one of the top three sticking around in what now will be the third FO. It's very unusual to put it mildly.
That doesn't mean that Depo is running the team as mac seems to insist on. It doesn't mean he has the final say on everything. But if Haslam didn't trust Depo more than everyone else he's let go to this point, Depo would have been gone too.
So you have a new HC, a new GM and Depo on his third regime. You have the HC Depo wanted last year. Depo worked with Barry before as well. Now why would you hire back Berry who was just fired from here not long ago at an even higher position?
Come on GM, even you can see that Depo played a big role in putting the HC and GM in place here. The owner just didn't go back in time and decide on Depos choice of HC and rehire a former employee who he chose to fire not long ago without Depos input.
Depo was not one of the top three. As far as Haslam trusting Depo I agree with you, the reason I outlasted 9 GM's is because the owner trusted me and he knew I always told him the truth, even when I knew it was something he didn't want to hear or didn't agree with I told him anyway.
BTW Berry was not fired. Jimmy and Dee didn't want him to leave, but didn't stand in his way of taking a promotion to work for the Eagles.
Yet, as you admit, you were not one of the top management people that met with the owner every week. I think you're trying to make a comparison there that doesn't exist. Depo meets with the owner every week. The same as the GM and HC will do. The top 3.
And if only a short time ago had Haslam felt Berry was worthy of being GM, Dorsey would have never been hired. Something changed his mind in a very short amount of time. And there was only one major ingredient left in the FO since Berry departed. Depo....
I'm not sure why you are trying so hard to dismiss the obvious here,
OK number 1 just because they all three meet doesn't mean they all talk about the same things. The GM and the head coach meet about football. Depo meets about the organization. Different things are discussed. I am also not trying hard bro, just stating the truth.
I just find it ..... odd ..... that the Browns supposedly have the GM/HC/Depodesta set up as a tri-pod, each reporting to Haslem ..... yet who set up the interview process(es) for HC and GM, and who had a vote in each case?It seems odd that Depodesta would be on equal footing with Berry and Stefanski, when he helped hire both.
Quote:
I just find it ..... odd ..... that the Browns supposedly have the GM/HC/Depodesta set up as a tri-pod, each reporting to Haslem ..... yet who set up the interview process(es) for HC and GM, and who had a vote in each case?
JCing...
YT...IMO, how that turned out, was not an accident but intended to insure that Depo had the deck stacked in his favor from the beginning of the hiring process. Hiring the coach before hiring the GM insured that Depodesta's preference, Stefanski, would have Depo's assurance that Stefanski would get the job.
It has been reported that Dee (and possibly Jimmy) preferred hiring Josh McDaniels for the HC job. As a NFL franchise, you don't bring and coaching candidate back for a second interview AND INVITE HIS WIFE to join the candidate on that visit, unless you are ready to offer the job to that candidate.
Somebody put the kibosh on the Josh McDaniels hire and it most likely was Depodesta, who very likely would have been out of a job if McDaniels had been hired as the Browns HC. Chances are that McDaniels would have used analytics in the same proportion that Belechick used analytics in New England, which would mean that Depo and his analytics program would no longer be needed by the Browns.
I can only imagine the conversations that took place between Depodesta and Haslam, from the time that McDaniels and his wife "landed in Cleveland" on Jan 10, 2020 to the time "they left Cleveland" on Jan. 10, 2020, "WITHOUT" a commitment from Jimmy and Dee Haslam.
The Haslames reputation likely hit rock bottom among the NFL eletes thanks to the obvious snub of the Haslams. Again, you don't invite a candidate's wife to join her husband on a second interview unless you are prepared to offer the job to that candidate.
Who was responsible for the change of heart?...the guy who had the most to lose...Depodesta. Jimmy listened to Depo and instead of hiring a coach who very likely grew up as a Browns fan decades before Jimma and De even thought about buying the Browns historic franchise ...Jimma and De listened to the advise of their "west coast" employee who comes and goes as he sees fit...who is virtually running the Browns franchise on a part-time basis while he builds, promotes and operates his own west coast business.
Quote:
It seems odd that Depodesta would be on equal footing with Berry and Stefanski, when he helped hire both.
Reality is, Depodesta is NOT ON EQUAL FOOTING with Berry and Stefanski. Depodesta is above "EVERYONE" within the franchise and his power includes the right to "hire and fire" everyone but the owners of the franchise.
Depodesta is a master manipulator, using his power to establish guidelines as to how the Browns should be managed and how the franchise should operate. Depodesta would not be in such a powerful position without the support of ownership.
Ownership simply follows Depo's lead, preferring to follow, rather than lead the franchise. The foundation to win is in place and hopefully "Moneyball" will not interfere with the growth of the franchise.
Depodesta needs to take a step back, allowing Stefanski and his coaches to do their job without interference from guy in charge, Depodesta.
BTW, Depodesta's west coast business features his employment with the Browns as a marketing campaign to promote his personal business, located in San Diego, CA.
I do wonder if the Haslams might be invested in Depodesta's business venture, which was launched in 2012, at the same time Depodesta was hired by Haslam...
...just win..that is all I want!
Either stop drinking before posting or pick another subject. You sound insane.
I didn't think it was possible but mac made the Epstein Murder and Clinton Kill list much more credible!
Yet, as you admit, you were not one of the top management people that met with the owner every week. I think you're trying to make a comparison there that doesn't exist. Depo meets with the owner every week. The same as the GM and HC will do. The top 3.
And if only a short time ago had Haslam felt Berry was worthy of being GM, Dorsey would have never been hired. Something changed his mind in a very short amount of time. And there was only one major ingredient left in the FO since Berry departed. Depo....
I'm not sure why you are trying so hard to dismiss the obvious here,
No offense, but I guess I'm just having a hard time figuring out just what position you are arguing.
Clearly DePo had input on the HC hire... Clearly DePo has input on any and everything else Browns. It's what he was hired for. Wouldn't it make sense that DePo would be on the same level as the GM and or Team VP? As the guy tasked with creating and implementing an organizational strategy, he has to have authority. If he weren't an equal, who would he be put under? The GM? the HC? And why would it be inappropriate for him to be in on those weekly meetings? Part of his job is to constantly assess and re-assess their systems. Why waste Berry and Stefanski's time by making them have a second meeting in order to compare notes and share info?
What most of us are pushing back against is this cockamamy narrative that DePo has ochestrated this Deepstate coup in Cleveland from his office in a hidden volcano off the coast of California.
"Do you expect me talk?" "No Mr. Bond, I expect you to watch perennially sub-par football! Muhahahahahaha!!"
No offense, but I guess I'm just having a hard time figuring out just what position you are arguing.
Actually what you outlined below is pretty much what I'm saying.
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Clearly DePo had input on the HC hire... Clearly DePo has input on any and everything else Browns. It's what he was hired for. Wouldn't it make sense that DePo would be on the same level as the GM and or Team VP? As the guy tasked with creating and implementing an organizational strategy, he has to have authority. If he weren't an equal, who would he be put under? The GM? the HC? And why would it be inappropriate for him to be in on those weekly meetings? Part of his job is to constantly assess and re-assess their systems. Why waste Berry and Stefanski's time by making them have a second meeting in order to compare notes and share info?
And this makes perfect sense to me. People just keep insinuating this isn't the case. That he isn't on an equal footing with the GM and HC. I mean if this is the structure Haslam wishes to run, whether one agrees with it or not, it is what it is. But common sense dictates your breakdown is at least fairly accurate. The only place we may differentiate is that I feel Depo has "major influence" on those things more so than simply "input". But that may just be a matter of semantics.
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What most of us are pushing back against is this cockamamy narrative that DePo has ochestrated this Deepstate coup in Cleveland from his office in a hidden volcano off the coast of California.
His office is most likely in his home.
I don't think Depo has orchestrated a coup. I think mac is way off base here. I also feel those who are trying to downplay Depo's role are no less off base. You have presented pretty much exactly the way I feel about how things stand. I'm a "the jury is out" guy. I have no clue how this group will do. I certainly have my concerns having so many elevated to new roles at the same time but I'm certainly in wait and see mode.
I think Dawgs on both sides have a tendency to get too hyper focused on presumptions and assumptions on what DePo's role in the roster is and disregard or discount what his entire role is.
I agree the influence/input is probably mostly semantics. From a practical sense, yes, I'd say that hiring Stefanski this time around is an indicator that DePo has more influence. I don't believe its the result of some sort of a power move that some make it out to be. The fact that he recommended Stefanski the year before and we're just now following that recommendation suggests to me that DePo is just now getting the deference he's due.
Whether or not he's earned that level of deference is still yet to be proven.
From what I've seen though, let's say DePo strongly lobbies for a player... I just don't see him in a my way or the highway position. We have to remember the guy recognizes the need to constantly assess results. So when he presents a player to say Stefanski and Berry, I think he'd be disappointed if they didn't offer feedback. If they said they didn't agree with the data, I think he's more interested in the reasons why than getting his way because their reasons why become additional data points. The whole goal of the analytics program is to increase the probability of picking successful players. Also to recognize players who may be overlooked.
I'm just not seeing enough that puts DePo in the driver's seat so for me personally, I'm just not concerned about him having too much influence.
Funny how in a year things suddenly change Depo was a mere after thought. Freddy was being annointed as a genius hire And Dorsey could do no wrong in player acquisitions. But the guy left standing Said the least. Maybe Depo knew all along Kitchens was going to Be one and done. And simply just waited his turn. I tell ya it seems like Kitchens fooled everyone (Even the homers) but Depo.
In my opinion, Dorsey was the best thing that has happened to the Browns since their rebirth. Before he got here, analysts consistently said that Browns had the worst roster or very close to the worst for years. Last year, those same people [I'm not talking about Brown's fans or dudes on here] said the Browns had as good of a roster as any team in the league.
It led to 1 and 31 and folks are trying to tell us that bringing back those dudes is "smart." LMAO.........it's such a crazy argument that all one can do is laugh, but folks on here actually champion such nonsense.
I agree. replacing Dorsey with a guy who was a part of the 1-31 regime doesn't seem like a good idea to me. Hoping it works out.
It's more a question of how much input and control he has than anything else. Not so much that there's anything evil about it.
Let's face it, two regimes and three HC's have come and gone while Depo remains.
The HC that was just hired was his preference last year when Freddie was hired. When everyone around you gets fired or leaves..... twice... When the guy you wants hired as HC gets hired as HC, it's obvious your influence is pretty huge.
It's not really quite the debatable topic some wish to make it out to be. It doesn't mean he runs the team or calls all the shots as has been suggested by some.
It's also a much more influential role than some are willing to admit as well.
Usually when two extremely opposing views are presented you find the truth is found squarely in the middle. L
Pit...trying to walk that fine line, attempting to put a smiley face on what took place here in Cleveland is tough to do. In many respects, it was a coupe orchestrated by Depo and Haslam.
Re-hiring the analytics team that contributed to the historic record of 1 win - 31 losses...is not a confidence builder...they have a lot of work to do, proving that they are capable of building the Browns into a winner.
Hopefully, Stefanski will show leadership and "take" the power and control over the football side of the Browns.
cf...here we go again...the analytics boys are what their record says they are...no way in hell your every going to convince me that the numbers boys were shooting for 1 victory in 2 yrs..or that that was all intentional.
Time to stop using that lame excuse and accept the fact that the Browns management and front office in 2016 and 2017 were that bad.
Time to stop using that lame excuse and accept the fact that the Browns management and front office in 2016 and 2017 were that bad.
The lame excuse that invalidates your entire point?
The team was tanking, Andrew Berry admitted as much in his opening press conference, and accomplished its goal. Then Haslam went nuts and blew up the process.
I am sure they were shooting for 4 wins combined in those 2 years. Needed to have worst record to ensure getting the top pick in the draft 2 years in a row - you know like tanking ensures.
Hue ensured that they would attain no more than that modest number of wins.
Well 1 out of 32 isn't much. Mission accomplished....... I guess. If one actually believes that was the goal.
I don't see how anyone can look at the evidence and conclude that they weren't tanking.
I'm pretty sure if anyone spent the time combing through past threads, they would see several posts where many here laid out what they thought the 4 year plan was after the first season confirmed we were tearing it down.
You do realize almost anyone can run a crappy draft, trade down in the draft, cut salary and win 1 game out of 32 games, right? You don't need much talent in the building to accomplish that.
You do realize almost anyone can run a crappy draft, trade down in the draft, cut salary and win 1 game out of 32 games, right? You don't need much talent in the building to accomplish that.
Almost anyone can do that. We didn't get to see the hard part. Now we do (except without all the assets the easy part accumulated).
It's more a question of how much input and control he has than anything else. Not so much that there's anything evil about it.
Let's face it, two regimes and three HC's have come and gone while Depo remains.
The HC that was just hired was his preference last year when Freddie was hired. When everyone around you gets fired or leaves..... twice... When the guy you wants hired as HC gets hired as HC, it's obvious your influence is pretty huge.
It's not really quite the debatable topic some wish to make it out to be. It doesn't mean he runs the team or calls all the shots as has been suggested by some.
It's also a much more influential role than some are willing to admit as well.
Usually when two extremely opposing views are presented you find the truth is found squarely in the middle. L
Pit...trying to walk that fine line, attempting to put a smiley face on what took place here in Cleveland is tough to do. In many respects, it was a coupe orchestrated by Depo and Haslam.
Re-hiring the analytics team that contributed to the historic record of 1 win - 31 losses...is not a confidence builder...they have a lot of work to do, proving that they are capable of building the Browns into a winner.
Hopefully, Stefanski will show leadership and "take" the power and control over the football side of the Browns.
You may want to go and look up what a coupe actually is there fella. Dorsey was the one who refused to work within the structure he agreed to when hired. Dorsey was the one who attempted the power grab. Dorsey's coup ultimately failed and with his departure simply allowed DePo to step back in to the position Dorsey tried to move him out of.
I certainly hope Stefanski can take control of the football side too. There's no one standing in his way.
You do realize almost anyone can run a crappy draft, trade down in the draft, cut salary and win 1 game out of 32 games, right? You don't need much talent in the building to accomplish that.
No, but you do need a specific plan to accomplish that. If you look at the first 2 drafts under Sashi, there was a clear and consistent theme to those drafts in terms of the players they did get.
It's coup not coupe. Not replying to you but to the person who suggested it was a coup. Then again, maybe he did intend it to be coupe like coupe de ville.
You do understand that you sound like you believe in a conspiracy theory, right? They were tanking on purpose while at the same time trying to build the team through the draft.
They were tanking on purpose while at the same time trying to build the team through the draft.
Teams that play as many young players as we were playing don't win the in the NFL.
Also, cutting/not re-signing veterans, trading down, taking on bad contracts to accumulate assets, etc. These are all things teams do in other sports when they are tanking.
Year 1 - accumulate assets - trade down, get WR (CC sucked but he was arguably the highest rated WR in the draft that year). Year 2 - # 1 pick - Garrett, Trade back (Peppers and next year 1st - see Ward, Denzel), Njoku.
Build OL - see Tretter and Zeitler
Year 3 - #1 pick - Get franchise QB.
Seems like plan was fine - not hard to see that Tanking was the plan. Bad first year draft. Year 2 better, Year 3 - never will know.
Year 1 - accumulate assets - trade down, get WR (CC sucked but he was arguably the highest rated WR in the draft that year). Year 2 - # 1 pick - Garrett, Trade back (Peppers and next year 1st - see Ward, Denzel), Njoku.
Build OL - see Tretter and Zeitler
Year 3 - #1 pick - Get franchise QB.
Seems like plan was fine - not hard to see that Tanking was the plan. Bad first year draft. Year 2 better, Year 3 - never will know.
not hard to see, at all.
The goal wasn't to lose, but it wasn't to win, either. The goal was to accumulate assets and clear salary space in those first couple of years.... gut the structure to its foundation.. and then in year 3 and on to begin to build.
Win/Lose were were "nice to think about" after-the-facts. You WANT to win, but it wasn't the overarching goal for everything, it was an afterthought -- you stick to the plan of acquiring assets first, second, and last during that teardown phase and then do the best you can with what you have. We did exactly that and because of it Dorsey came strutting in and inherited the best possible situation any GM could hope for. He had stupid amounts of money to work with and an embarrassment of riches in draft capital.
Now, the guys that created that plan are going to get to see it through. Hopefully, they draft better than they did with the WRs - I recall their way of thinking was "If we take a lot of them, we have a better chance of finding one of them". That doesn't reassure me completely, but the rest of their plan has been very sound (albeit frustrating for much of the journey thus far).
What slays me is that people think that "tanking" in the NFL is a good idea. Seemingly, not one of you can see that football is vastly different from baseball and basketball due to the number of games played each season and the time between each games.
Entrenching a losing culture has long-range negative effects. I have played and coached this game and I'm telling you that the culture you develop on a football team is HUGE.
There are all kinds of folks who trash Dorsey on this board and said he didn't win enough games. He acquired the talent, but overcoming the losing culture takes time. The team improved under him, but it was a process. You can't just go from losing every game to knowing how to learn.
And that is something that I don't think anyone else "gets" on this board. At least that is the impression I get because folks keep beating the "they were tanking" drum, as if it were a good excuse. Tanking is DUMB in football!!!
... wouldn't tanking for more games over a longer period of time be worse on a culture, if anything? More time to develop bad habits. More time for depression to set in.
Tanking sucks. When you've been doing it without trying for a decade, you might as well do it intentionally and build up assets to get the team out of the well worn rut.
At least with putting a time on it, there was light at the end of a tunnel instead of false hope and a never ending tunnel.
Without the extra assets Dorsey wouldn't have been able to add all the talent that he did.
Stop and think about it. Please.
Both regimes did both good and bad things. Dorsey got a bunch of benefit from their suffering.
I will say that I respectfully disagree and here's why ...
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog
Seemingly, not one of you can see that football is vastly different from baseball and basketball due to the number of games played each season and the time between each games.
I'm not sure why that would make a difference. As you're still talking about tanking over the course of an entire season. If anything, I would think that losing over the course of 82 games or 162 games would actually be more demoralizing as you're dealing with the losing on a near daily basis. I get that the sports are different, but losing is losing.
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Entrenching a losing culture has long-range negative effects. I have played and coached this game and I'm telling you that the culture you develop on a football team is HUGE.
I do partially agree with this, but I think this ultimately comes down to coaching. There's a difference between losing and just being okay with it, and losing and trying to still establish goals and benchmarks to try and achieve outside of the actual win/loss column.
When people hear the word "Tanking", I feel like they think the coaches are going out there and telling them to intentionally lose games, and that should never, ever be the case. If that's going on, the coaches should be fired immediately.
Most of these "Tanking" scenarios are the front office essentially putting the team behind the 8 ball for a season or two, while they conduct a strategic rebuild. The coaches and players should still be trying 100% to win, and I feel it's up to the coaches to find smaller, more obtainable goals for players to aim for, to keep them motivated and engaged. I know people think that "moral victory" is a dirty word, but for teams that don't have the talent yet to really compete, that's just the thing they should be striving for.
I remember Ray Lewis or someone saying that when he came into the League, their team was terrible. And the coaches, knowing this, told all the players to focus on doing their individual jobs, and setting individual goals. So that's what they aimed for, rather than win/loss. It kept them motivated and engaged, even if they were ultimately losing. It wasn't telling them, "Oh we lost, who cares", it was "Did you reach your goal? Good, keep at it because the wins will come later when we bring in more people." It's about generating a winning culture, even when you can't ultimately win games yet.
I will say that I respectfully disagree and here's why ...
Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog Seemingly, not one of you can see that football is vastly different from baseball and basketball due to the number of games played each season and the time between each games.
I'm not sure why that would make a difference. As you're still talking about tanking over the course of an entire season. If anything, I would think that losing over the course of 82 games or 162 games would actually be more demoralizing as you're dealing with the losing on a near daily basis. I get that the sports are different, but losing is losing.
I think it makes a difference because winning 0, 1, or 2 games in an entire season is devastating. The Tigers had the worst record in MLB and won 47 games. The Oriels won 54. Marlins won 58. Not sure how you feel about math, but how does 47 and 114 compare to 0 and 16 or 1 and 15?
Let's look at the NBA. We both love the Cavs. I think they are something like 16 and 41. They stink. How does that compare to 1 and 31?
I am not asking you to accept this, but I coaches football, basketball, and baseball at various times during my coaching career and there is nothing like losing games in football as there is in those other two sports. I can't speak to hockey or soccer because I never coached them. It's just different.
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Quote: Entrenching a losing culture has long-range negative effects. I have played and coached this game and I'm telling you that the culture you develop on a football team is HUGE.
I do partially agree with this, but I think this ultimately comes down to coaching. There's a difference between losing and just being okay with it, and losing and trying to still establish goals and benchmarks to try and achieve outside of the actual win/loss column.
When people hear the word "Tanking", I feel like they think the coaches are going out there and telling them to intentionally lose games, and that should never, ever be the case. If that's going on, the coaches should be fired immediately.
Most of these "Tanking" scenarios are the front office essentially putting the team behind the 8 ball for a season or two, while they conduct a strategic rebuild. The coaches and players should still be trying 100% to win, and I feel it's up to the coaches to find smaller, more obtainable goals for players to aim for, to keep them motivated and engaged. I know people think that "moral victory" is a dirty word, but for teams that don't have the talent yet to really compete, that's just the thing they should be striving for.
Coaches never try to lose. Neither do players. I know y'all hate Hue and blame him for everything, but Joe Thomas and others repeatedly said what a great job he did of keeping the team focused and trying to win despite what was going on in the FO.
I don't want this to turn into a Hue argument. He's gone. I accepted it and so has every other Hue supporter. We are not crying to bring him back. He's gone and that's fine.
What I am saying is that when your HC and DC comes out and praises how important Joe Haden is to the team and the FO cuts him about a week later.....you are sending a horrible message to the team. Joe Thomas spoke about how so many young guys looked up to Haden and how the coaches lauded him and then the FO cuts him to save some money right before the season...........it's devastating to the "culture" of the team.
Additionally, Wylie's comments about the FO were very revealing. There was a distrust between the two factions of the organization.
In my opinion, the rift between the FO and the coaching staff was huge. It is also my opinion that the FO's disdain w/the Hue hire adversely affected how they dealt w/him. I do think he tried to cover for them w/comments like "Trust me," but I think ultimately that separation of philosophies did the Browns in.
And again, I don't expect you to agree w/me. But perhaps, we can keep it civil and leave out the namecalling and personal attacks.
After signing a multi year extension with the Browns, Haden played 18 games in 2 years. He was due 11+ million the following year. The Browns asked him to restructure his contract, but Haden said no, he'd rather be released. The Browns also tried to trade him, but apparently there were no takers.
His replacement that season, McCourty, was and is better than Haden.
John Dorsey arrives and calls out the lack of real players. McCourty was disgruntled with those comments.
McCourty was traded along with a 7th rd pick for a 6th rd pick.
Nary a peep about how the General Manager calling all the players "not real" being detrimental to the culture of the franchise.
Imagine if we keep McCourty, draft Bradley Chubb instead of Ward and we don't trade away Zeitler for Vernon...
Berry has made it a priority to have everyone reading from the same page, and he believes this can only be achieved with open communication and synergy among what he calls the senior leadership: chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta, new coach Kevin Stefanski and himself. To that end, he starts each morning with a half-hour meeting with Stefanski, to discuss the things that might occur during the day. L
So Depo is just the analytics guy....
Depo is running this show like he is the Head GM, not some analytics dude, doing his thing in the back ground.
I think we can flush this idea that Depo is just producing information, using analytics as a tool to help the team.
Depo is all about helping himself to take over a franchise so he can continue to make some money off of MONEYBALL.
How many GMs does it take for one NFL team to operate?
If you are the Cleveland Browns they have...
1. an owner who sees himself as a "Jerry Jones" type, the defacto GM.
2. an analytics dude who was a BASEBALL GM for 2 yrs before being fired..and never to be offered another GM job in BB.
3. a guy who is GM in name only..the youngest and least experienced GM in the NFL..thus leaving himself vulnerable to the 2 Buzzards mentioned above..two guys more interested in promoting themselves than building the Browns into a winner.
4. a head coach who is the most NFL experienced of all of those named above and may one day be qualified as a talent evaluator and HC.
#3 and #4 should be running the Browns, but the chances of them getting the opportunity to do their jobs without interference from #1 and #2...slim to none.
I can only cross my fingers and hope that Haslam and Depo stay out of the way and allow those with football experience to build the Browns into a winner.
I can't argue with you about Jimmy as I am not a fan of his, and he has proven he can't keep his nose out. I don't really even disagree with you when it comes to Berry or Ski. Where I have butting heads with you is Over Depo who will not, is not, and has not interfered or been in charge of Football moves.
I can't argue with you about Jimmy as I am not a fan of his, and he has proven he can't keep his nose out. I don't really even disagree with you when it comes to Berry or Ski. Where I have butting heads with you is Over Depo who will not, is not, and has not interfered or been in charge of Football moves.
I believe you, bro.
But, what does he do to earn such a big salary?
Are you saying he has no influence? Are you saying he was a fan of Dorsey? Are you saying he wasn't one of the guys who did not want Hue? Are you saying he wasn't on the Stefanski train last year?
Hell, if he has no ties to any of those things........why is he being paid so much to live in sunny San Diego?
I don't agree w/mac, but some things aren't adding up.
Not when it comes to Football decisions like drafting players, trading for players, signing players, etc, etc, etc, In other words not when it comes to what is going on between the goal lines.
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Are you saying he was a fan of Dorsey
He never said anything bad about Dorsey as far as I know.
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Are you saying he wasn't one of the guys who did not want Hue
I'm saying he didn't talk about Hue as that was not his decision to make, so he could have loved him, hated him, or been indifferent about him.
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Are you saying he wasn't on the Stefanski train last year?
When he was asked his opinion he did say he would have hired Ski last year.
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But, what does he do to earn such a big salary?
How big is his salary?????? I don't know do you? It may be in the 2 to 3 million per year range but I can't say for sure.
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Hell, if he has no ties to any of those things........why is he being paid so much to live in sunny San Diego
He is being paid so much because he is the CSO. Why are the Browns paying Mike Mossholder, Renee Harvey, Peter John-Baptiste, Mike Nikolaus, Katie Murphy, Will Black, and 100 more folks so much? Because their is so much more to a NFL team than just what goes on down on the field.
I can't argue with you about Jimmy as I am not a fan of his, and he has proven he can't keep his nose out. I don't really even disagree with you when it comes to Berry or Ski. Where I have butting heads with you is Over Depo who will not, is not, and has not interfered or been in charge of Football moves.
I believe you, bro.
But, what does he do to earn such a big salary?
Are you saying he has no influence? Are you saying he was a fan of Dorsey? Are you saying he wasn't one of the guys who did not want Hue? Are you saying he wasn't on the Stefanski train last year?
Hell, if he has no ties to any of those things........why is he being paid so much to live in sunny San Diego?
I don't agree w/mac, but some things aren't adding up.
I couldn’t agree less ... its simple .. really really simple ...
He has the thief’s ear ... he was a part of the reason KJ got fired ... that affects football moves an awful lot ... he was part of the reason Andy and Kev got hired .. that affects football decisions quite a bit ... is he in the war room making picks .. nope ... but he will be in the war room ... WHY? ... according to some its just to hold Andy’s hand so he doesn’t mess up the process ... ...
Depo doesn’t have near the power as our posts are perceived ... but he certainly isn’t just a process guy ... that‘S just BS and is no closer to the truth than the way our posts (at least mine) about him are perceived ...
To think he had no input on KJ being tossed in favor of his peeps Andy and Kev is complete and utter BS ... common sense tells me that ...
I won't try and tell you that your opinion is not valid...but KJ did not get fired. He simply did not. He didn't want the new role he was asked to play so he moved on. I understand why he moved on. But he wasn't fired.
Forced out? Maybe. But he'd still be here if he agreed to the new role.
Semantics bro .. they chopped his nuts off and asked him to “smile and wave boys ... smile and wave“ ... unlike my favorite penguins he chose not to ..
Hasn't also been reported that he's in Cleveland at least twice a week?
If true, that's not an easy commute even if you're in 1st class.
Maybe he's a modern man in a modern world and has embraced the ability to work from home or remotely like millions of other people?
Maybe he's more than just a silly baseball guy and is actually a person of importance in the field of applied analytics and makes spot appearances?
Maybe he has family that have needs in San Diego that they can't get in Cleveland?
There's any number of legit, reasonable reasons for him not being in Berea 24/7 before we get to this accusation that he's not all in on his job.
Plus, do you want the guy involved or don't you (I ask this to everyone)? If you're a person who doesn't want him involved so much, than being present part time should be what you want. If you think he should be here full time, then that means he would be more involved.
Semantics bro .. they chopped his nuts off and asked him to “smile and wave boys ... smile and wave“ ... unlike my favorite penguins he chose not to ..
If only KJ would have been more concerned with what was best for the team instead of what was best for KJ he wouldn't have found himself in that pickle.
Wouldn't you love to have THOSE fequeet flyer miles?
I wonder what the numbers say about that being efficient in terms of time management?
Depends..
Gotta factor in if he pays for Captains Lounge internet speeds? Or does he chance it with the open wi-fi for plebs?
How many miles is he earning? Is he using Capital One? Is he willing to fly at off peak times? I bet the SOB times his flights to take advantage of 2x and 3x miles promotions. Does he Uber, car service, taxi, or pay for extended parking? Drinking booze at the airport is a black hole... pat down or X Ray? Loafers, velcro, or slippers?
Semantics bro .. they chopped his nuts off and asked him to “smile and wave boys ... smile and wave“ ... unlike my favorite penguins he chose not to ..
I don't think that is true. Prove it.
I know he wasn't going to have final say on the new coach, so he took his ball and went home.. But after selecting Freddie as his hand picked coach could you let him pick another?
I know you wouldn't have.
Having final say does have consequences. If you are wrong, it's on you. Dorsey and Sashi are equals. Both were good at one end of the job and bad at the other.
50% failed any test I ever took except when playing baseball. I was a catcher.. I threw out 39% of runners...that was considered a ++. I hit .268...another + for the position.
Catcher is a defensive first position. If you can't block balls in the dirt and throw out some runners, you can't play the position no matter how well you hit.
So if you can't hit .300 and can't be made a 1st baseman, you best be able to keep some wild pitches in front of you and be able to throw.
You get it, you umped a few games behind the plate. I know you appreciated a catcher who kept you clean.
Thanks for answering, bro. Some of your answers seem a bit defensive. I get that you like the guy and I have no problem w/that. Some things just don't add up.
I remember when you and I went at it about Farmer and company vs Shanny. You reported what you heard. I never denied that and I am not not denying that you are telling the truth now. I believe you. However, I remember telling you that those things were not automatically true just because those guys told you things. History backs up my point. Shanny is doing fine. Farmer is not doing fine in the NFL.
Btw...........Depo's annual salary is $2 million per year according to reports. It's not hard to find. For a guy who lives in SD and apparently has no say in football decisions, I'd say that is a gig I would love to have. The words "con artist" come to mind. I'd take that $2 million and use it to sweeten the offer to keep a player like Schobert. But, that's just me.
Maybe he's more than just a silly baseball guy and is actually a person of importance in the field of applied analytics and makes spot appearances?
I think we have had some decent conversations lately. I'm trying. But, I have never said anything closely resembling what you just said.
I really despise when folks misquote me and try and act like I am being unreasonable based on the misquote. I stopped speaking to several posters because they consistently resorted to such low-level tactics.
I have no problem w/you disagreeing w/my opinions and stating your own. But please..........debate fairly.
before KJ was fired the thief came out and said depo and i agree we should hire a coach and allow him to be involved in the HC hire to make sure they get along .... that was one of the priorities on the GM hire ...
That was before KJ was tossed ...
Your good at math ... and this is real easy math ... u have to be in denial to not see how that adds up ... cant help u there my friend ...
before KJ was fired the thief came out and said depo and i agree we should hire a coach and allow him to be involved in the HC hire to make sure they get along .... that was one of the priorities on the GM hire ...
That was before KJ was tossed ...
Your good at math ... and this is real easy math ... u have to be in denial to not see how that adds up ... cant help u there my friend ...
Dorsey was fired, agreed to mutually part ways, stepped down or whatever term people want to use. He was offered a reduced role that was obvious he would not accept. It was a professional courtesy to not use the term "fired."
But to your timeline claim that Haslam and DePo announced the HC would have input on the GM hire is inaccurate.
Dorsey officially "parted ways" with the Browns on 12/31/19.
The comment you reference of the HC having input on the GM hire was made directly by Haslam during his press conference on 1/2/20 after Dorsey was no longer with the Browns. DePo was not involved in that press conference.
Not sure why you are hung up on where Depo lives? What does it matter? He provides information. He can do that from the office next door or from across the country just as quickly. A keystroke away.
Heck, the fact he is away from the complex a good amount of the time should tell you he isn't involved in day to day operations.
Here is the data on this player. The data says he is a + player. Now you guys sort it out and decide if you want him or not.
Thanks for answering, bro. Some of your answers seem a bit defensive. I get that you like the guy and I have no problem w/that. Some things just don't add up.
Nope not defensive bro. Just speaking the truth and some folks don't want to hear it. I don't like nor dislike Depo like I said just speaking/typing the truth.
As far as Farmer, I did hear a lot of praise for him when he was hired. I also admitted that he sucked as a GM. Shanny was and still is a ME, ME, ME guy just like I said he was. I never said he was a bad Coach just that he places himself above the team.
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Btw...........Depo's annual salary is $2 million per year according to reports. It's not hard to find. For a guy who lives in SD and apparently has no say in football decisions, I'd say that is a gig I would love to have. The words "con artist" come to mind. I'd take that $2 million and use it to sweeten the offer to keep a player like Schobert. But, that's just me.
How can you call him a con artist when you don't know what he does
How can you call him a con artist when you don't know what he does
I think a lot of people base their opinion on what he does on Jonah Hill's dramatization of him after watching Moneyball on DVD. Some of them probably think he is Jonah Hill. They don't realize that a movie about what he really does wouldn't have been particularly entertaining to the movie viewing public.
gm...nice try...you wish you could say depo was just hired..but he has a 4 yr record in the NFL and he has a 20yr record in baseball..and none of those records equal 0-0
gm...nice try...you wish you could say depo was just hired..but he has a 4 yr record in the NFL and he has a 20yr record in baseball..and none of those records equal 0-0
What mac is trying to say is that everything is clearly his fault. mac is a 95–224–1 fan since the return. He is what his record says he is.
I guess that means it's all of our fault. We're all 95–224–1 fans. Shame on us.
gm...nice try...you wish you could say depo was just hired..but he has a 4 yr record in the NFL and he has a 20yr record in baseball..and none of those records equal 0-0
No I don't want to say he was just hired. I want to tell the truth and say he has never been in charge and is not responsible for our record on the field. You however as I pointed out the other day should be starting your posts with "once upon a time" as you want to make believe the Browns are a fairy tail, and Depo is the wicked step mother.
He's been here for going on his third HC and third FO now. So are you trying to say that all of those people wanted Depo to be running the analytics? Sounds like at least two of these FO's were given a forced marriage with Depo. Oh that's right, his buddies and his hand picked HC are in place now.
No other team in the NFL operates under the guidance of an analytics dude..the guy who does the hiring and firing..the analytics dude..the guy who is at least "partially responsible" for the Browns worst 2 seasons in Browns history..yet everyone else pays for depo's experiment with their jobs while depo remains, coddled by Jimmy Haslam.
gm...nice try...you wish you could say depo was just hired..but he has a 4 yr record in the NFL and he has a 20yr record in baseball..and none of those records equal 0-0
No I don't want to say he was just hired. I want to tell the truth and say he has never been in charge and is not responsible for our record on the field. You however as I pointed out the other day should be starting your posts with "once upon a time" as you want to make believe the Browns are a fairy tail, and Depo is the wicked step mother.
Who introduced his "MONEYBALL SCHEME" to the Browns 4yrs ago?
gm...nice try...you wish you could say depo was just hired..but he has a 4 yr record in the NFL and he has a 20yr record in baseball..and none of those records equal 0-0
No I don't want to say he was just hired. I want to tell the truth and say he has never been in charge and is not responsible for our record on the field. You however as I pointed out the other day should be starting your posts with "once upon a time" as you want to make believe the Browns are a fairy tail, and Depo is the wicked step mother.
Who introduced his "MONEYBALL SCHEME" to the Browns 4yrs ago?
I think it's about time that Depo is held to same standard that others have been held to...in other words, Depo's job should be on the line if he can't get the Browns into the playoff hunt this season.
This will be Depo's 5 yr of playing Moneyball with the Browns...it is about time that he produce something...as the title of the thread hints.
I think it's about time that Depo is held to same standard that others have been held to...in other words, Depo's job should be on the line if he can't get the Browns into the playoff hunt this season.
This will be Depo's 5 yr of playing Moneyball with the Browns...it is about time that he produce something...as the title of the thread hints.
If this is Depo's fifth year in charge that means he gets credit for all the decisions Dorsey made instead of Dorsey, right?
I think it's about time that Depo is held to same standard that others have been held to...in other words, Depo's job should be on the line if he can't get the Browns into the playoff hunt this season.
This will be Depo's 5 yr of playing Moneyball with the Browns...it is about time that he produce something...as the title of the thread hints.
If this is Depo's fifth year in charge that means he gets credit for all the decisions Dorsey made instead of Dorsey, right?
Great job drafting Ward and Chubb Depo!
cf...who was in charge of the MONEYBALL SCHEME all 5 yrs.
If anything, Dorsey gave Depo a platform to improve upon, rather than depo trying to build off of his 1-31 platform.
I think it's about time that Depo is held to same standard that others have been held to...in other words, Depo's job should be on the line if he can't get the Browns into the playoff hunt this season.
This will be Depo's 5 yr of playing Moneyball with the Browns...it is about time that he produce something...as the title of the thread hints.
If this is Depo's fifth year in charge that means he gets credit for all the decisions Dorsey made instead of Dorsey, right?
Great job drafting Ward and Chubb Depo!
cf...who was in charge of the MONEYBALL SCHEME all 5 yrs.
If anything, Dorsey gave Depo a platform to improve upon, rather than depo trying to build off of his 1-31 platform.
Like I said, great job in the 2018 draft. Ward and Chubb were obviously Depo picks. Austin Corbett, Chad Thomas, Antonio Callaway, and Genard Avery were all obviously Dorsey picks. If Baker ends up being good he's obviously a Depo pick, if not Dorsey.
Also, great job in the 2018 off-season acquiring Jarvis Landry and Damarious Randall Depo! A stroke of genius!
No other team in the NFL operates under the guidance of an analytics dude..the guy who does the hiring and firing..the analytics dude..the guy who is at least "partially responsible" for the Browns worst 2 seasons in Browns history..yet everyone else pays for depo's experiment with their jobs while depo remains, coddled by Jimmy Haslam.
As usual you forgot to start with "once upon a time" because your living in a fairy tale world, making fairy tale posts.
gm...nice try...you wish you could say depo was just hired..but he has a 4 yr record in the NFL and he has a 20yr record in baseball..and none of those records equal 0-0
No I don't want to say he was just hired. I want to tell the truth and say he has never been in charge and is not responsible for our record on the field. You however as I pointed out the other day should be starting your posts with "once upon a time" as you want to make believe the Browns are a fairy tail, and Depo is the wicked step mother.
Who introduced his "MONEYBALL SCHEME" to the Browns 4yrs ago?
Nobody except for that second voice inside your head.
I think it's about time that Depo is held to same standard that others have been held to...in other words, Depo's job should be on the line if he can't get the Browns into the playoff hunt this season.
This will be Depo's 5 yr of playing Moneyball with the Browns...it is about time that he produce something...as the title of the thread hints.
I think it's about time that Depo is held to same standard that others have been held to...in other words, Depo's job should be on the line if he can't get the Browns into the playoff hunt this season.
This will be Depo's 5 yr of playing Moneyball with the Browns...it is about time that he produce something...as the title of the thread hints.
Ok, then he needs to be able to make picks. He doesn't do that now. He needs to hire people. He doesn't do that now. At least people outside of his department.
Depo is a shorten form of DESPERATE As In Haslam is so desperate to win he will Try just about anyone at GM
I thought it was short for dependable. As in he was right so many times Jimmy's finally decided to listen to him.
It's short for deposition. That's what he'll have to submit to the courts after Jimmah gets busted paying the "techboys" to hack the opponents intel systems. He'll blame it all on depo and get off scot-free. The depo era will end amidst much damage and a renewed shame.
Depo is a shorten form of DESPERATE As In Haslam is so desperate to win he will Try just about anyone at GM
I thought it was short for dependable. As in he was right so many times Jimmy's finally decided to listen to him.
It's short for deposition. That's what he'll have to submit to the courts after Jimmah gets busted paying the "techboys" to hack the opponents intel systems. He'll blame it all on depo and get off scot-free. The depo era will end amidst much damage and a renewed shame.
It's mac's world, I'm just living in it.
I thought it was short for Despondent, our fan base in general.
I think it's short for Depo-Provera. In this case, it's a contraceptive designed to prevent winning.
Well, pregnant football players wouldn't be much good on the field. Hopefully Jimmy uses him more and stops catching (hiring) STDs (Stupid Tough Dudes.)
Contraceptives only work if you use them. They don't do much good if you leave them in the drawer.
Every damn team in the NFL uses analytics. Sounds like you and your buddies think all NFL teams are wrong.
Only I never said or even hinted at any of that. My point is every GM and HC has "their guys". As you said, every team uses analytics. I'm pretty sure each has had an analytics team they have worked with in the past. I'm pretty sure they have people in mind to fill that role when they are hired. Just like they have other people to come in and fill coaching duties and FO duties.
An example. Berry comes in and both Highsmith and Wolf are gone. Stefanski comes in and the bulk of the coaching staff is overhauled. That's just how it works in the NFL.
So it seems that it's your contention that three HC's and three GM's all wanted to work with the same analytics guy without bringing their own people.
Now if you would actually like to discuss the points I made, please do. If not, stop accusing me of saying things I never said.
I think it's about time that Depo is held to same standard that others have been held to...in other words, Depo's job should be on the line if he can't get the Browns into the playoff hunt this season.
This will be Depo's 5 yr of playing Moneyball with the Browns...it is about time that he produce something...as the title of the thread hints.
Ok, then he needs to be able to make picks. He doesn't do that now. He needs to hire people. He doesn't do that now. At least people outside of his department.
Maybe he's more than just a silly baseball guy and is actually a person of importance in the field of applied analytics and makes spot appearances?
I think we have had some decent conversations lately. I'm trying. But, I have never said anything closely resembling what you just said.
I really despise when folks misquote me and try and act like I am being unreasonable based on the misquote. I stopped speaking to several posters because they consistently resorted to such low-level tactics.
I have no problem w/you disagreeing w/my opinions and stating your own. But please..........debate fairly.
The conversation has been decent and I'm not trying to rock that boat either. My "silly baseball guy" isn't a quote. It's a composite of the general attitude of those who have questioned DePo's qualifications AND/OR misrepresented his contributions and motives AND/OR his dedication to creating a successful organization here.
I was simply using that in juxtaposition to my position that he is qualified to do what he does AND what he does is in demand across all sorts of fields as a possibleexplanation as to why he isn't in in Berea full time.
Trust me, I HATE trying to discuss things with people who purposefully misrepresent my position and assign motives to what I say that aren't accurate. As a rule I try not to do that to others.
I think it's about time that Depo is held to same standard that others have been held to...in other words, Depo's job should be on the line if he can't get the Browns into the playoff hunt this season.
This will be Depo's 5 yr of playing Moneyball with the Browns...it is about time that he produce something...as the title of the thread hints.
Ok, then he needs to be able to make picks. He doesn't do that now. He needs to hire people. He doesn't do that now. At least people outside of his department.
It's obvious you don't get it.
Is Depo in the draft room?
I was in the draft room does that make me in charge
Try and get back in so we all know what Depo’s role is ... ...
I imagine lots of GUESTS are invited to the war room ... I’m pretty sure Depo isn’t there as a guest ... but i guess if u believe all he does is set up processes u may also believe he’s an invited guest ...
And how many HC interviews have u sat in on ... ...
Try and get back in so we all know what Depo’s role is ... ...
I imagine lots of GUESTS are invited to the war room ... I’m pretty sure Depo isn’t there as a guest ... but i guess if u believe all he does is set up processes u may also believe he’s an invited guest ...
And how many HC interviews have u sat in on ... ...
I was not invited, I know what Depo's role is, I have seen it, heard it,and witnessed it. Thats why I get so mouthy about it.
Try and get back in so we all know what Depo’s role is ... ...
I imagine lots of GUESTS are invited to the war room ... I’m pretty sure Depo isn’t there as a guest ... but i guess if u believe all he does is set up processes u may also believe he’s an invited guest ...
And how many HC interviews have u sat in on ... ...
And bro .. u can talk til your blue in the face ... u paint a picture of him solely setting up processes and being involved in nothing else .... and ACTIONS tell a different story .... guess we’ll be butting heads for awhile on this one ....
I believe GM is trying to tell you, without naming names, that he is involved, hence his screen name. In other words, he knows a lot more about things and what has happened than you and he knows the ACTIONS.
I think it's about time that Depo is held to same standard that others have been held to...in other words, Depo's job should be on the line if he can't get the Browns into the playoff hunt this season.
This will be Depo's 5 yr of playing Moneyball with the Browns...it is about time that he produce something...as the title of the thread hints.
Ok, then he needs to be able to make picks. He doesn't do that now. He needs to hire people. He doesn't do that now. At least people outside of his department.
It's obvious you don't get it.
Is Depo in the draft room?
I hope so.
When you are on the clock, people are calling about trades etc. you want the guy pulling up the info on what players of similar stature are available, the chances they will be there when you get there, what kind of trade compensation has been given for similar trades, etc.
Damn right I hope he is in there.
Like I said, I understand you don't get it so as a old time poster who I have been talking to for maybe 20 years, I answer your stupid questions.
Depo lives in your head. That sheet will kill you or make you lose your mind. You really do need to step back.
You are like a engineer in the early 60's who scoffed at computers and decided to stick to the slide rule and pocket protector.
Slide rules worked well, but you don't find many who use them any more. I suppose modern day engineering students learning to be mechanical or process engineers still learn the slide rule in case the power goes out and they have a problem to figure out asap before the dam collapses.
How much quick set concrete do we need to stop the under dam breach?
I wasn't insulting him. I said as a old time poster I answer his questions, even in this case it stupid. We all as stupid questions.
Of course the guy is in the room. He is there not to make the picks. He is there to help the people making the picks.
I know you get it so I am a bit put off by the comment, but I can take it.
I'll just ask you, do YOU think Depo makes the picks?
I know last night you chastised Mac a bit that maybe he needs to seek a different angle.
I don't mind different opinions. I welcome them, but when it is the same message over and over and it is clearly nonsense, sorry, I finally say enough is enough.
I'll just ask you, do YOU think Depo makes the picks?
I won't insult you by saying it's a "stupid" question. In fact, I will answer it.
No, I don't think he makes the picks? However, I do think he has a lot of power. I also know that he is making $2 million a year. For what? Doing nothing?
You and a couple of others are as far off as mac is.
One more thing, peen. Guys like you love jumping down mac's throat and making fun of him for his notions that are out there. Yet, you ignore all craziness that is posted on here daily by other posters. Dudes are saying things like Landry can't catch a pass over two yards and not one person challenges that statement.
Hell, one guy called Dorsey a bully and made some kind of comment comparing him to a gorilla. And you didn't.......
I don't mind different opinions. I welcome them, but when it is the same message over and over and it is clearly nonsense, sorry, I finally say enough is enough.
I'll just ask you, do YOU think Depo makes the picks?
I won't insult you by saying it's a "stupid" question. In fact, I will answer it.
No, I don't think he makes the picks? However, I do think he has a lot of power. I also know that he is making $2 million a year. For what? Doing nothing?
You and a couple of others are as far off as mac is.
One more thing, peen. Guys like you love jumping down mac's throat and making fun of him for his notions that are out there. Yet, you ignore all craziness that is posted on here daily by other posters. Dudes are saying things like Landry can't catch a pass over two yards and not one person challenges that statement.
Hell, one guy called Dorsey a bully and made some kind of comment comparing him to a gorilla. And you didn't.......
...........Wait. What?
I know I did. He was the gorilla in the room. I don't back away from that....it is a expression, kind of like bull in a china shop. That was his management style. That is how some people do it....it usually doesn't work, especially today.
I don't think I jump down Macs throat. I agree with him on many points he makes. He knows that. I do call out goofy takes.
I never said Depo didn't have power. Of course he does. He should in his position. I would be shocked if he didn't.
You don't know that he was like that. It's a bunch of BS based off of one article and then folks who were still pining for the previous regime ran w/it.
You don't know that he was like that. It's a bunch of BS based off of one article and then folks who were still pining for the previous regime ran w/it.
I'll talk to you later, peen.
Just like Seth Wickersham was one article...though I think it was a good article and probably fairly accurate.
I don't buy in to the pining thing. No more that any time a FO changes. Some are pining for John....I get it, I liked the guy but I don't think he would rate high in any employee survey.
Of course we will be talking. We are friends even if we irritate each other every now and then.
It's a message board, that happens. Got to keep talking to see it worked out to if nothing else to agree to disagree and move on to other topics.
It's like being brothers. You can keep hitting him or a poster in the same place, but when you know it is bruised and really hurts, you stop and find somewhere else if you care.
Analytics is just information. Information is only useful if the person interpreting the information knows what they are doing and can sift through the meaningful and meaningless information.
For Example, Corey Colemans SPARQ score was better than Beckham's. Anyone that knows football, which would exclude Sashi, knew Coleman was a clown. The information is only as good as the talent evaluator
Analytics is just information. Information is only useful if the person interpreting the information knows what they are doing and can sift through the meaningful and meaningless information.
For Example, Corey Colemans SPARQ score was better than Beckham's. Anyone that knows football, which would exclude Sashi, knew Coleman was a clown. The information is only as good as the talent evaluator
Well it sure turned out that way. Sometimes the numbers lie and the scouts get it wrong. As I recall Coleman was highly rated by everybody.
That's just the way it goes. If there was a surefire method, no team would have a bust.
I think there were a lot of questions about the receivers that year. A lot of folks had Treadwell as the top guy. Some had Dotson. Some Coleman. I think Coleman got attention because he was the fastest. It turned out be a terrible WR draft class, sans one.
Michael Thomas, the league's top receiver, was in that class.
I think Analytics can help decide when your decision comes down to 2 players. The best way to pick players is to watch the games, and game film. That said, the people that are viewing have to know what they are looking at. 2 people can see the same footage and draw different conclusions on what they both just watched.
When I evaluate what I see in a player, i look for speed, quickness, and if they played elite competition, how did they do. Thats why I loved Deshaun Watson in that Draft. He dominated Alabama 2 years in a row. Thats why I knew Shelton would be a joke. He was extremely slow off the ball, and showed no quickness. Cam Ervings OL coach said he didnt even like to work out, that would have immediately removed him from consideration in my book. Loved Derrick Henry from Bama over Elliot. Im not quite sure why it took the Titans so long to realize what they had in Derrick Henry. Corey coleman couldnt catch and all but 1 of his big games were against inferior competition
Loved Kenny Golladay from N. Illinois in that Draft. His speed and hands were great.
Another factor is injuries. Is a player always injured? That generally doesnt change, thats why as good as Tua was, he is too injury prone for my taste. Can it change? Sure. But it generally doesnt.
Agreed no one has a 100% rate picking players. Im not a fan in general of players from the Big 12. Mahomes is the rare exception. I honestly do not know why that conference gets hyped as much as it does.
I think there were a lot of questions about the receivers that year. A lot of folks had Treadwell as the top guy. Some had Dotson. Some Coleman. I think Coleman got attention because he was the fastest. It turned out be a terrible WR draft class, sans one.
Michael Thomas, the league's top receiver, was in that class.
Tyreek Hill and Tyler Boyd turned out alright, too.
Injuries killed Doctson and have hampered Will Fuller.
Doctson was my dude, but he hasn't been right since he messed up his Achilles. He just signed with the Jets. I hope he's finally fully healthy and can give the fans some highlights.
I just looked up the 2016 WR draft class. Here is a link. If you go the headings on top of the chart and click on Pos and then scroll all the way down, you will see all the WRs drafted.
Hill was hardly a hidden gem. What he was was undraftable for most teams due to his off-field issues.
"Hill was projected to be undrafted during the 2016 NFL Draft, mainly due to his domestic violence arrest. Although he was not invited to the NFL combine, Hill was able to showcase his abilities at West Alabama's Pro Day. Scouts were mainly impressed with his speed and he received much praise for his workout.[20] Regardless of his workout, many teams had completely removed Hill from their draft boards, but his head coach from West Alabama maintained that at least 20 teams were still interested in him".
"General Manager John Dorsey had to receive consent from Chiefs' owner Clark Hunt to make the selection and says they thoroughly vetted the prospect which included speaking to the prosecutor that charged him. After drafting him, the Chiefs' held an impromptu press conference and addressed the issue to the media during the first day of rookie minicamp.
Hill was hardly a hidden gem. What he was was undraftable for most teams due to his off-field issues.
"Hill was projected to be undrafted during the 2016 NFL Draft, mainly due to his domestic violence arrest. Although he was not invited to the NFL combine, Hill was able to showcase his abilities at West Alabama's Pro Day. Scouts were mainly impressed with his speed and he received much praise for his workout.[20] Regardless of his workout, many teams had completely removed Hill from their draft boards, but his head coach from West Alabama maintained that at least 20 teams were still interested in him".
"General Manager John Dorsey had to receive consent from Chiefs' owner Clark Hunt to make the selection and says they thoroughly vetted the prospect which included speaking to the prosecutor that charged him. After drafting him, the Chiefs' held an impromptu press conference and addressed the issue to the media during the first day of rookie minicamp.
Ham...regardless, the Chiefs took extra steps to check into Hill's background and obviously saw something in the young man that other teams did not.
Looking for "football talent" where ever it may be and taking the time to get as much information as possible to make an informed decision...can make a difference.
I know you were responding to mac, but another poster is trying to use your post to say I am deceiving people. I wasn't. I am pretty sure that we all know that Hill wasn't drafted high due to his off-the-field problems. Hell, we've had threads dedicated to him.
The bottom line is that our FO failed w/those picks. Dorsey did not.
The bottom line is that our FO failed w/those picks. Dorsey did not.
I've mentioned this before - I think it's way too soon to declare Dorsey's drafts a success. Baker, Ward, Greedy are all in 'show me' status. Taki and Redwine are very much - Meh. Other than Nich Chubb who might be the best RB in the NFL - the 2018 list is full of unprovens too.
Personally I lean on the Dorsey did great side - I think OBJ & Vernon should shine. I think Ward and Greedy will be a great tandem at CB. I think Baker is going to bounce back .... but none of that is at all certain.
I was not invited, I know what Depo's role is, I have seen it, heard it,and witnessed it. Thats why I get so mouthy about it.
I would have to say one would have to look at the time frame. Now I'm not trying to say that Depo picks the players. But roles change over time. And Depo's influence over the decision making certainly has as well.
Last year Depo wanted Stefanski. He didn't get him. Haslam didn't suddenly do a 180 and rehire people that departed only two years ago without the influence of someone. Depo it seems obvious is the major link to both Berry and Stefanski. So Depo's influence in the decision making has certainly increased from what it was previously.
So if you're talking about last year, or seasons previous to that, Depo's role has certainly increased since that time. Exactly how much is anyone's guess.
The Browns have really struggled drafting WRS Since the return Their best WRs have been either free agents For the most part I remember when Robiskie and Massaqoiu were drafted...the draft homers slobbered all over them. Then Ricardo Louis is drafted and is anointed a genius and Louis was a steal
The bottom line is that our FO failed w/those picks. Dorsey did not.
I've mentioned this before - I think it's way too soon to declare Dorsey's drafts a success. Baker, Ward, Greedy are all in 'show me' status. Taki and Redwine are very much - Meh. Other than Nich Chubb who might be the best RB in the NFL - the 2018 list is full of unprovens too.
Personally I lean on the Dorsey did great side - I think OBJ & Vernon should shine. I think Ward and Greedy will be a great tandem at CB. I think Baker is going to bounce back .... but none of that is at all certain.
You are one of the guys I don't want to converse with, but I am going to have to clarify my position again.
I was comparing the receivers taken by Sashi and company in 2016 to the receivers taken by Dorsey in KC in the same year.
The Browns invested 4 picks at the position and Dorsey invested 2.
However, Hill and Robinson is far superior to Coleman, Louis, Payton, and Higgins.
That is what I was saying and I don't see how another poster [not you] can call that deceitful. But, the refs allowed it to stand.
I would say that Dorsey's record with WR draft picks while with the Browns is not great .... would it be fair to judge him by Dorsey's best picks over his whole career or to judge him on results while with the Browns? Either way to the best of my knowledge he only picked Calloway and Ratley for us. I think Calloway is out of the NFL and Ratley probably should be. . . . With that said, I loved the Calloway pick. High risk, High potential - and with a 4th rounder I think?
I sometimes wonder if I am speaking a different language or if my writing skills have evaporated. I thought I made it clear that I was comparing the WRs taken in the 2016 draft.
I think there were a lot of questions about the receivers that year. A lot of folks had Treadwell as the top guy. Some had Dotson. Some Coleman. I think Coleman got attention because he was the fastest. It turned out be a terrible WR draft class, sans one.
Michael Thomas, the league's top receiver, was in that class.
Yep, and he was drafted in the 2nd round. Like I said earlier, there are lot's of ways to do it, but none are fool proof. If you look at Thomas, no way should he have been a 2nd round pick. He should have been top 10-20 pick.
Some might say higher....cool...I tend to discount the receiver position a bit more than some others.
Just expressing my views, not discounting others opinions. We all place different values on different positions. For me, receivers are somewhere near the bottom end of starting positions on both sides of the ball. To me, the position is about catching the ball. A simple skill we learned with Dad....maybe Mom when we were 6-7 years old.
Sure, you have to grow in to the position, or have the speed to play the position, but I don't understand why anybody would play a player at that position who can't catch.
Tossing and catching is somethings boys have been doing for a few thousand years. Girls maybe not as long, but they do it too.
Just catch the ball. It's just playing toss and catch.
My son Chris and I played a game called kill. It is a baseball drill my Dad taught me. When he was 6, we were maybe 15 yards apart. Later, maybe 30-40 yards apart. You would throw the ball, the catcher couldn't move. He had to catch the thrown ball. If he hadn't actually caught the ball and it would hit body, it was a kill.
That was more a accuracy throwing drill, but you were still catching a ball. We did that at least a hour a night 6 days a week when he was young. I miss those days in a big way.
Catching a ball is a pretty basic skill in several sports.
People who can't catch a ball can't be a receiver on a football team, at any level above maybe Jr. High.
I went through a Jr. High system of 7th, 8th, and 9th in the same school. It then went to a middle school system a few years later. You didn't play Varsity football until 10th grade except for the few pulled up off the JV team. Never allowed under 9th grade.
I agree and I always thought I had some of the best hands in the world. LOL.......that's pretty dumb, but it's a mindset. I could catch everything. I was a SS and P in baseball, but you need good hands to play SS. I was a PG w/a great handle in basketball. I was a RB in football, but caught a ton of passes.
I remember in 8th grade, we were doing a drill and pass after pass clanked off this one dude's hands. We were all wise guys because of the era, and I regretfully said something like "It hit him in a bad place. The hands." That sounds me, but we used to rib each other constantly. It was about having the longest needle and the thickest skin.
Well, a coach heard me and barked: "Let's see how you do, Vers? [not my real name...lol] We were running little dig routes and the coach purposely threw it way behind me while I was running full speed. I stopped on a dime, left my feet and lunged backwards and caught the ball w/my left hand inches from the ground.
All the backs and qbs started going nuts. I jump up, toss the ball back to the coach and said "Nice throw, coach."
I sometimes wonder if I am speaking a different language or if my writing skills have evaporated. I thought I made it clear that I was comparing the WRs taken in the 2016 draft.
Time for me to move on.
You did make it clear. I said (was trying to say) - picking one very small sample and using (probably) Dorsey's best all time draft picks at WR while he was with a different team doesn't seem very balanced. That's all. Sorry - not arguing with you. Sashi and co were terrible with their draft picks. I'd take Dorsey every day of the week and twice on Sunday - he is a far better talent evaluator and always will be regardless of how Baker and his other draft picks for the Browns turn out.
Let's hope that they do a better job this time. I was really going to quit this team and I still might. But hell, I came back here and am talking Browns again. I really don't want to watch them this year, but my dumb self will probably be sucked back in.
I agree and I always thought I had some of the best hands in the world. LOL.......that's pretty dumb, but it's a mindset. I could catch everything. I was a SS and P in baseball, but you need good hands to play SS. I was a PG w/a great handle in basketball. I was a RB in football, but caught a ton of passes.
I remember in 8th grade, we were doing a drill and pass after pass clanked off this one dude's hands. We were all wise guys because of the era, and I regretfully said something like "It hit him in a bad place. The hands." That sounds me, but we used to rib each other constantly. It was about having the longest needle and the thickest skin.
Well, a coach heard me and barked: "Let's see how you do, Vers? [not my real name...lol] We were running little dig routes and the coach purposely threw it way behind me while I was running full speed. I stopped on a dime, left my feet and lunged backwards and caught the ball w/my left hand inches from the ground.
All the backs and qbs started going nuts. I jump up, toss the ball back to the coach and said "Nice throw, coach."
I miss the days, bro.
Good stuff man.
I am a baseball guy. You have heard me say that before. I was a catcher in college and pitched in HS as well. Baseball is the ultimate catching game. Every play on D requires catching a ball before making a out of throwing for one.
I have, well, had good hands as well. But with 5.0 spend and 5'10" height, I was a half ass linebacker. I played, but in football, I loved kicking. I was the team kicker. I was going to be Lou Groza. I did win a game late on a 44 yard fieldgoal. 44 was a big number when I played, but that was about the time the Gogalacks showed up and changed the way people kicked.
But, that's OK, baseball was my sport. Really man, I was a good baseball player. Had a torn shoulder not ended it, I might be in the HOF now.
OK....maybe not, the Bourbon is kicking in, but I was better than way more than most.
I love baseball. It teaches a player that failure is a norm in life. Deal with it.
Where else can you make a 30% and be considered a top player? If you hit .300, you are a star. Come home with a 30% on a test, complete 30% of your passes, or hit 30% of your shots, you aren't looking all that good.
What's crazy to me is that my son is a pretty good varsity pitcher in HS. Unfortunately, he plays on a not so good team.
He threw a 1 hitter last year 2x as a junior. He has a 2, 4, seamer and a slider that is pretty nasty. He was throwing 79-80 last year and will probably end up throwing around 83-87 by the end of the season. I think he also had 2 or 3 games where he had 4k's in an inning because our fielding is... not so good. LOL
So, what blows my mind is that... no colleges are interested because he is 5'8.
10 years ago... kid probably would have been drafted in HS.
What's crazy to me is that my son is a pretty good varsity pitcher in HS. Unfortunately, he plays on a not so good team.
He threw a 1 hitter last year 2x as a junior. He has a 2, 4, seamer and a slider that is pretty nasty. He was throwing 79-80 last year and will probably end up throwing around 83-87 by the end of the season. I think he also had 2 or 3 games where he had 4k's in an inning because our fielding is... not so good. LOL
So, what blows my mind is that... no colleges are interested because he is 5'8.
10 years ago... kid probably would have been drafted in HS.
They put pitchers in to a mold. It's hard for many coaches to look out of the mold.
Here is the deal, if your son is right handed, most scouts, coaches are looking for 87 as a minimum. Leftys can drop to about 83-84.
Just keep pitching. My son was left handed and maybe even shorter than your son. He got a few offers from some smaller schools, but he wanted to play at a bigger school. He(we) decided to go junior college as he did get some offers there. He chose a school in Alabama that is always in the national rankings. He proved himself there and ended up at Alabama his final two seasons on a baseball scholarship.
The deal with baseball is a D1 college is allowed I believe 11.5 scholarships. That means very few get anything close to a full ride. He got a 25% his first year and a 40% his second.
Are you getting you son out there? The summers is where you are seen. Baseball camps is a good place. All the big colleges have them. And helping at these camps are a ton of smaller school coaches. I started him in the 10th grade. Two a summer in addition to the travel team he played on.
He went to TN camps twice. Fla, Aub, KY, FSU, and Clemson. A lot of coaches knew him when they saw him on the travel team.
If you are behind, you still have time. Most schools have winter Christmas camp. Usually 2-3 days. I know Tennessee does. We did that. Talk to his HS baseball coach. Get his honest opinion. I am sure he knows some college coaches. Get him to spark some interest, but again, just being honest, he won't do that if he doesn't think the player is good enough.
If you want to talk more, you can PM me any time. I love to talk baseball.
I am so fascinated by the process top HS athletes go through to get discovered and potentially get a scholarship offer. Thanks for sharing Ballpeen. I am so into this show QB1 on Netflix that follows the recruitment process for Top Rated HS QB's. Justin Fields is on Season 2, amazing.
I have a friend whose son is a 4 star S/DB in the state I live. Talking to him about the recruitment process is so crazy. Kid has offers from some of the top schools and is just biding his time before he makes a decision. They get calls from schools non stop. Nuts
As long as the moneyballers "improve" the roster, building a team to win 'now' and to insure the team makes the 2020 playoffs, it's difficult to criticize the cuts.
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Just kidding...I will say I hope you are wrong...how's that?
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