I know this will not sit well with a few posters.

I am considerably unexcited.

Who really cares, though? He'll be fired, along with the rest, in a year or 2.

I know nothing of the guy.

Ok, just did some reading.... he should not be allowed to evaluate talent nor have input on any trades.

He can give all the administrative input he desires.

Ryan Grigson is among the worst GMs of all time. The blame for Andrew Luck retiring early is mostly his doing. I would prefer he did not work for the team I root for. With that said, as long as he's not making any decisions this is probably meaningless. Grigson became a GM because he was good at being the director of player personnel for the Eagles, so he must've been competent at some point.

Especially when it comes to running backs!

It's also a pretty good sign that Grigson worked in this same capacity for the Seahawks the least two years and things didn't completely fall apart.

This is kinda how I feel. I was really optimistic with the last 10 coaches. Now I'm like yeah whatever. So maybe this will actually work out.

j/c:

Grigson? Seriously? This keeps getting better and better. Dude not only sucked as a GM, but was big-time trouble-maker that was despised by many in Indy.

Glad we are assembling a bunch of guys who will work well together.

This move screams of cronyism.

Haha wait is this the GM who traded a 1st round pick for Trent Richardson? Lol.

Anyways, I don’t know anything about what his role will be. If it’s reduced to his strength, then it’s okay I guess

He is here to show all these wet behind the ears guys the ropes.That way,when Haslum hangs them all to dry they will at least be familiar with the delivery mechanism.

Getting better every6 day/

Dorsey, Wolf, Highsmith, new coach...or...Depo, Stefanski, Berry, and Grigson.

My goodness this team is a complete joke.

For the first time I can ever remember I will have no excitement going into the season.

I am going to go back to what I did for threeo years. I will watch the first game then I will not watch again until they have 2 wins in a row.

I think I might just redzone it even when the Browns are on. Something I would usually never do.

Talents there bro ... if kev and woods are worth anything and bake isn’t the bum he appeared to be last year we got a shot ....

The Browns still have the talented roster that Dorsey and company assembled. They should win quite a few games this year. They should be okay the following year. But, I'm guessing that it gets real ugly again after that w/these bozos back in charge.

If everything falls into place AND Jimmuh isn't asking Scott Peters if he could take Stefanski in a brawl we might have a shot. Having Jimmuh is the ultimate biggest hurdle there is.

I think the Browns will have double digit losses this year.

The three most important people in any football organization are QB, coach, and owner.

Browns are weak in all spots.

Is it fair to say that about the coach ?

Noted for posterity. Your words may turn out to be prophetic...or come back to bite you in the butt. I am expecting the latter...

I agree on the thief but he is not the reason we lost last year .... that falls squarely on my boys shoulders ... I actually said the day he fired Chud he was the problem and the head of the snake was rotten ... other than backing into KJ due to the thief’s inability to make even a remotely decent hire he’s proven what i said to be true ..

I said it 3 years ago ... WORST OWNER IN THE HISTORY OF SPORTS so far ... and he still holds that title ...

This season will be decided by two things and none of them have to with the thief ...

1. Who is bake ... can he learn to read D’s ... he’ll be better than last year ... question is by how much ... i would guess he’s gonna have a much different off season then he did last year ... when i read he said “ i thought it would be easier than this” last year during the season ... that make some things make a lot more sense about his demise ...

Then there the reading D’s thing .... i don’t think u can “learn how to read D’s ... your brain can either process the info fast enough or u can’t ... is it bake isn’t capable of processing the info quick enough or was last year his learn by experience year ...

2. How much better can Kev be than Freddie ... he best be anyhow ...

I’m ASSuming these guys aren’t morons and won’t blow the roster up and will bring in some help ... we don’t need a ton ... good play calling on O and playing a D that fits our CB’s strengths will solve a bunch of problems right there ...

And this will be year 3 of the Isle of Optimism vs Fantasy Island ... right now its 1 - 1 and I HATE LOSING ... so theres that .... *L* ...

2018 draft :First round: Mayfield (1), Ward (4).

Second round: Corbett (33), Nick Chubb (35).

Third round: Chad Thomas (67).

Fourth round: Antonio Callaway (105).

Fifth round: Avery (150).

Sixth round: Damion Ratley (175), Simeon Thomas (188).


Dorsey headed into tradepalooza with 12 draft picks in 2018 and now has nine. He gave up a third, fourth and fifth-rounder this year and a seventh-rounder in 2019 and got back a third-rounder next year. The Browns and Packers also swapped their picks in the fourth and fifth rounds as part of the Kizer-Randall trade.

All told, the Browns traded

1. A 2018 fourth-rounder (No. 123) and a 2019 seventh-rounder for Landry.

2. The top pick in the third round, No. 65, to the Bills for Taylor.

3. Kizer to the Packers for Randall, as well as the teams swapping fourth- and fifth-round picks.

4. Danny Shelton and a 2018 fifth-round pick to the Patriots for a 2019 third-round pick.

The Browns got:

* Landry
* Taylor
* Randall
* The Patriots' 3rd round pick in 2019
* Fourth- and fifth-round picks from the Packers (which ones will be determined this week) in 2018

The Browns gave:

* A 2018 3rd round pick
* A 2018 4th round pick
* A 2018 5th round pick
* 2018 4th and 5th rounders
* A 2019 7th (for Landry)
QB DeShone Kizer
DT Danny Shelton

link


2018 free agency signings...
QB Tyrod Taylor: From Bills via trade
QB Drew Stanton: Two years
RB Carlos Hyde: Three years, $15 million
WR Jarvis Landry: From Dolphins via trade
WR Jeff Janis: Agrees to deal
TE: Darren Fells: Three years, $12 million
OT Chris Hubbard: Five years, $37.5 million
OT Donald Stephenson: One year, $2.5 million
DE Chris Smith: Three years, $12 million
ILB Tank Carder: Agrees to deal
CB E.J. Gaines: One year, $4 million
CB T.J. Carrie: Four years, $31 million
CB Terrance Mitchell: Three years, $10 million
S Damarious Randall: From Packers via trade

[url=cbssports.com/nfl/news/2018-nfl-free-agency-team-by-team-tracker-with-brandin-cooks-trade-and-every-move-so-far/]link[/url]

2019 draft picks:

Round 2 • Pick 14 (46) • CB Greedy Williams.
Round 3 • Pick 17 (80) • LB Sione Takitaki.
Round 4 • Pick 17 (119) • S Sheldrick Redwine.
Round 5 • Pick 17 (155) • LB Mack Wilson.
Round 5 • Pick 32 (170) • K Austin Seibert.
Round 6 • Pick 17 (189) • G Drew Forbes.
Round 7 • Pick 7 (221) • CB Donnie Lewis Jr.


2019 free agency signings :

Cleveland Browns' 2019 free-agent signings.
Sheldon Richardson, defensive tackle.
Demetrius Harris, tight end.
Kendall Lamm, offensive line.
Eric Kush, offensive lineman.

Transactions 2019
DECEMBER
12/30
Signed DE Trevon Young to reserve/futures list

12/30
Signed G Willie Wright to reserve/futures list

12/30
Signed WR J'Mon Moore to reserve/futures list

12/30
Signed G Malcolm Pridgeon to reserve/futures list

12/30
Signed LB Montrel Meander to reserve/futures list

12/30
Signed CB Donnie Lewis Jr. to reserve/futures list

12/30
Signed LB Jermaine Grace to reserve/futures list

12/30
Signed DT Brandin Bryant to reserve/futures list

12/24
Placed RB Dontrell Hilliard (knee) on injured reserve

12/24
Elevated G Colby Gossett from to active roster from practice squad

12/23
Signed DT Brandin Bryant to practice squad

12/21
Waived DT Brandin Bryant

12/21
Elevated DE Robert McCray from practice squad to active roster

12/19
Released QB Eric Dungey from practice squad

12/19
Signed LB Jermaine Grace to practice squad

12/07
Placed CB Robert Jackson on injured reserve (ankle)

12/07
Activated TE David Njoku from injured reserve

12/03
Released S A.J. Howard from practice squad

12/03
Signed DE Trevon Young to practice squad

12/03
Waived DE Chris Smith

12/03
Signed DT Justin Zimmer off Atlanta Falcons' practice squad

NOVEMBER
11/27
Signed DE Robert McCray to practice squad

11/26
Waived DT Devaroe Lawrence

11/26
DT Larry Ogunjobi reactivated to 53-man roster

11/25
Signed WR J'Mon Moore to practice squad

11/22
Elevated DE Porter Gustin from practice squad to active roster

11/22
Elevated DT Brandin Bryant from practice squad to active roster

11/20
Signed S A.J. Howard to practice squad

11/20
Elevated S J.T. Hassell from practice squad to active roster

11/20
Designated TE David Njoku to return from injured reserve

11/19
Placed S Morgan Burnett on injured reserve (Achilles)

11/15
Placed DE Myles Garrett on reserve/suspended by commissioner list

11/15
Placed DT Larry Ogunjobi on reserve/suspended by commissioner list

11/14
Waived WR Antonio Callaway

11/14
Activated OL Drew Forbes from injured reserve

11/13
Waived LB Malik Jefferson

11/13
Signed DE Bryan Cox

11/08
Signed C JC Tretter to a three-year extension

11/04
Signed DE Porter Gustin to practice squad

11/04
Waived S Jermaine Whitehead

11/01
Placed DT Daniel Ekuale (calf) on injured reserve

11/01
Elevated TE Stephen Carlson from practice squad to active roster

OCTOBER
10/30
Claimed LB Tae Davis via waivers from the New York Giants

10/28
Traded DE Genard Avery to Philadelphia Eagles in exchange for an undisclosed 2021 draft pick

10/24
Designated OL Drew Forbes for return from injured reserve

10/22
Released RB Elijah McGuire from practice squad

10/22
Signed LB Montrel Meander to practice squad

10/22
Signed DT Eli Ankou off Jacksonville Jaguars' practice squad

10/18
Waived FB Joe Kerridge from injured reserve

10/15
Traded C Austin Corbett to Los Angeles Rams in exchange for 2021 undisclosed draft pick

10/11
Placed WR Derrick Willies (knee) on practice squad/injured list

10/11
Signed QB Eric Dungey to practice squad

10/07
Activated WR Antonio Callaway to 53-man roster

10/04
Placed LB Willie Harvey (shoulder) on injured reserve

SEPTEMBER
09/21
Placed LB Christian Kirksey (chest) on injured reserve

09/21
Elevated LB Willie Harvey from practice squad to active roster

09/20
Placed TE David Njoku (wrist) on injured reserve

09/20
Claimed S Juston Burris via waivers from Oakland Raiders

09/20
Signed CB Donnie Lewis Jr. to practice squad

09/20
Elevated CB Robert Jackson from practice squad to active roster

09/19
Waived RB Elijah McGuire

09/18
Signed G Malcolm Pridgeon to practice squad

09/16
Placed QB Drew Stanton (knee) on injured reserve

09/16
Elevated RB Elijah McGuire from practice squad to active roster.

09/12
Released G Kyle Kalis from injured reserve

09/12
Released CB Donnie Lewis Jr. from practice squad

09/12
Signed G Colby Gossett to practice squad

09/10
Waived TE Rico Gathers

09/07
Released CB Phillip Gaines from injured reserve

09/07
Released T Paul Adams from practice squad

09/07
Signed CB Donnie Lewis Jr.

09/01
Signed S Tigie Sankoh to practice squad

09/01
Signed G Willie Wright to practice squad

09/01
Signed WR Derrick Willies to practice squad

09/01
Signed CB Robert Jackson to practice squad

09/01
Signed S J.T. Hassell to practice squad

09/01
Signed LB Willie Harvey to practice squad

09/01
Signed WR Shelton Gibson to practice squad

09/01
Signed TE Stephen Carlson to practice squad

09/01
Signed DT Brandin Bryant to practice squad

09/01
Placed G Drew Forbes (knee) on injured reserve

09/01
Waived S Juston Burris

09/01
Waived DT Trevon Coley

09/01
Claimed LB Malik Jefferson via waivers from the Cincinnati Bengals

09/01
Claimed WR KhaDarel Hodge via waivers from the Los Angeles Rams

09/01
Claimed TE Ricky Seals-Jones via waivers from the Arizona Cardinals

AUGUST
08/31
Placed TE Rico Gathers on the reserve/suspended by commissioner list

08/31
Placed RB Kareem Hunt on the reserve/suspended by commissioner list

08/31
Placed WR Antonio Callaway on the reserve/suspended by commissioner list

08/31
Placed CB Phillip Gaines (concussion) on injured reserve

08/31
Waived FB Joe Kerridge (concussion) with an injury designation

08/31
Waived G Kyle Kalis (concussion) with an injury designation

08/31
Waived DE Anthony Zettel

08/31
Waived G Willie Wright

08/31
Waived WR Derrick Willies

08/31
Waived LB Dedrick Young II

08/31
Waived T Travis Vornkahl

08/31
Waived LB Anthony Stubbs

08/31
Waived WR Damon Sheehy-Guiseppi

08/31
Waived T Brad Seaton

08/31
Waived S Tigie Sankoh

08/31
Waived DE Wyatt Ray

08/31
Waived DT Brian Price

08/31
Waived CB Lenzy Pipkins

08/31
Waived DE Jarrell Owens

08/31
Waived RB A.J. Ouellette

08/31
Waived WR Braxton Miller

08/31
Waived S Montrel Meander

08/31
Waived CB Donnie Lewis Jr.

08/31
Waived K Greg Joseph

08/31
Waived CB Robert Jackson

08/31
Waived WR Ishmael Hyman

08/31
Waived S J.T. Hassell

08/31
Waived LB Willie Harvey

08/31
Waived RB Trayone Gray

08/31
Waived T Brian Fineanganofo

08/31
Waived TE Seth DeValve

08/31
Waived TE Stephen Carlson

08/31
Waived DT Brandin Bryant

08/31
Waived WR Dorian Baker

08/31
Terminated the contract of G Bryan Witzmann

08/31
Terminated the contract of DT Carl Davis

08/31
Terminated the contract of P Britton Colquitt

08/31
Terminated the contract of LB Ray-Ray Armstrong

08/31
Acquired G Justin McCray and 2020 undisclosed draft pick from Green Bay Packers in exchange for 2020 undisclosed draft pick

08/31
Acquired WR Taywan Taylor from Tennessee Titans in exchange for 2020 undisclosed draft pick

08/30
Traded QB David Blough and 2022 undisclosed pick to Detroit Lions in exchange for 2022 undisclosed pick

08/29
Acquired G Wyatt Teller and a 2021 7th-round pick from Buffalo Bills in exchange for a 2020 5th-round pick and a 2020 6th-round pick

08/27
Waived WR Jaelen Strong

08/26
Waived CB Jhavonte Dean

08/21
Placed WR D.J. Montgomery on the reserve/injured list (hamstring)

08/21
Claimed S Montrel Meander via waivers from New York Jets

08/21
Waived TE Mik'Quan Deane (non-football illness)

08/21
Signed WR Braxton Miller

08/11
Waived TE Orson Charles

08/11
Signed TE Rico Gathers

08/10
Signed FB Joe Kerridge

08/09
Waived C John Yarbrough

08/09
Waived DT Tracy Sprinkle

08/09
Signed T Travis Vornkahl

08/09
Signed DT Brandin Bryant

08/08
Traded RB Duke Johnson Jr. to Houston Texans for 2020 conditional draft pick

08/03
Waived CB Jermaine Ponder

08/03
Signed DT Tracy Sprinkle

08/02
Waived WR Blake Jackson with an injury designation (knee)

08/02
Signed TE Mik'Quan Deane

08/02
Signed K Phil Dawson and added him to reserve/retired list

JULY
07/28
Waived C Lo Falemaka with injury designation (shoulder)

07/28
Signed C John Yarbrough

07/27
Waived T Ka'John Armstrong

07/27
Signed RB A.J. Ouellette

07/24
Placed RB Trayone Gray on active/non-football injury list

07/24
Placed RB Kareem Hunt on active/non-football injury list

07/22
Signed C Lo Falemaka

JUNE
06/06
Signed T Ka'John Armstrong

06/05
Waived T Desmond Harrison

MAY
05/30
Waived C Trevon Tate

05/24
Signed LB Sione Takitaki

05/21
Signed CB Greedy Williams

05/16
Waived RB L.J. Scott

05/16
Signed RB D'Ernest Johnson

05/13
Waived RB Devante Mays

05/13
Signed RB L.J. Scott

05/06
Waived LB Xavier Woodson-Luster

05/06
Waived CB Ashton Lampkin

05/06
Waived RB Darrin Hall

05/06
Signed LB Willie Harvey

05/06
Signed RB Trayone Gray

05/06
Signed CB Jhavonte Dean

05/03
Signed LB Mack Wilson

05/03
Signed K Austin Seibert

05/03
Signed LB Dedrick Young II

05/03
Signed C Willie Wright

05/03
Signed C Trevon Tate

05/03
Signed LB Anthony Stubbs

05/03
Signed DE Wyatt Ray

05/03
Signed CB Jermaine Ponder

05/03
Signed DE Jarrell Owens

05/03
Signed WR D.J. Montgomery

05/03
Signed S J.T. Hassell

05/03
Signed RB Darrin Hall

05/03
Signed P Jamie Gillan

05/03
Signed T Brian Fineanganofo

05/03
Signed TE Stephen Carlson

05/03
Signed QB David Blough

05/03
Signed WR Dorian Baker

05/03
Waived LB D'Juan Hines

05/03
Waived DE Lenny Jones (injury settlement)

05/02
Signed CB Donnie Lewis Jr.

05/02
Signed T Drew Forbes

05/02
Signed S Sheldrick Redwine

05/01
Waived G David Bright

APRIL
04/29
Waived C Kyle Friend

04/27
Drafted CB Donnie Lewis Jr. 221st overall

04/27
Drafted T Drew Forbes 189th overall

04/27
Drafted K Austin Seibert 170th overall

04/27
Drafted LB Mack Wilson 155th overall

04/27
Drafted S Sheldrick Redwine 119th overall

04/26
Drafted LB Sione Takitaki 80th overall

04/26
Drafted CB Greedy Williams 46th overall

04/26
Traded 2019 second (49) and fifth round (144) picks to Indianapolis Colts for 2019 second (46) round pick.

04/25
Signed WR Ishmael Hyman

04/05
Signed WR Damon Sheehy-Guiseppi

04/05
Signed QB Garrett Gilbert

04/05
Signed DB Morgan Burnett

04/03
Signed TE/FB Orson Charles

04/01
Acquired DB Eric Murray from Kansas City Chiefs in exchange for DL Emmanuel Ogbah

04/01
Waived DB Howard Wilson

04/01
Waived WR Ricardo Louis

04/01
Waived DB Derrick Kindred

04/01
Signed DB Jermaine Whitehead

04/01
Signed WR Rashard Higgins

04/01
Signed DL Trevon Coley

04/01
Signed DB Juston Burris

MARCH
03/19
Re-signed DB Phillip Gaines

03/15
Signed OL Kendall Lamm

03/14
Signed OL Eric Kush

03/14
Signed LB Adarius Taylor

03/14
Signed TE Demetrius Harris

03/14
Signed DL Sheldon Richardson

03/13
Re-signed LB Ray-Ray Armstrong

03/13
Acquired WR Odell Beckham Jr. and DL Olivier Vernon from the New York Giants in exchange for OL Kevin Zeitler, DB Jabrill Peppers, 2019 first-round pick and a third-round pick.

03/12
Re-signed DL Carl Davis

03/11
Terminated contract of TE Darren Fells

03/06
Terminated contract of LB Jamie Collins Sr.

FEBRUARY
02/25
Waived WR Daniel Williams

02/25
Re-signed OL Greg Robinson

02/20
Signed WR Jaelen Strong

02/11
Signed RB Kareem Hunt

02/04
Waived LB Tanner Vallejo

JANUARY
01/07
Signed OL David Bright to reserve/futures list

01/07
Signed DB Ashton Lampkin to reserve/futures list

01/02
Signed WR Daniel Williams to reserve/futures list

01/02
Signed DB Tigie Sankoh to reserve/futures list

01/02
Signed OL Brad Seaton to reserve/futures list

01/02
Signed DB Lenzy Pipkins to reserve/futures list

01/02
Signed RB Devante Mays to reserve/futures list

01/02
Signed DL Devaroe Lawrence to reserve/futures list

01/02
Signed DB Robert Jackson to reserve/futures list

01/02
Signed OL Kyle Friend to reserve/futures list

01/02



Then the Hiring of FK has the writing on the wall, FK saying " John.it's not the talent you gave me to coach... It's just I can't coach the talent you gave me " " Whoopty Hell "

Hey bro.........I hope I can communicate this adequately. I am not boasting or being confrontational. I just want to remind you of something in order to make my point moving forward.

Last year, I made a thread about the 3 Biggest Concerns or something like that. My top 3 were:

1. How Baker would play now that other teams had video on him.

2. How well Freddie would do as a HC considering he had never been a HC at any level before and had limited experience even as a coordinator.

3. Team chemistry considering we had several new players, strong-willed players, a ton of players who had experienced an unprecedented amount of losing, and very few players who experienced winning on the big stage.


What's changed this year?

I have some thoughts, but would love to hear your thoughts, first.

What exactly are you trying to say by listing all of those transactions?

U want me to do it real quick now (don’t have much time ... ) ... or u want me to answer Sunday when i have some time ...

Your call ...

And its me ... get as confrontational as you’d like ...

I made that post to you in less than 2 minutes. Probably less than a minute. Give it whirl, please. You can always amend it.

Not trying to say anything...Trying to put out some information about a statement you made and was hoping it would be useful for the up coming season.


you said ........



This will be something we can monitor to what Dorsey did to what the new guys do...just info to look at ...wth

U want me to answer your 3 bullet points in regards to what’s change from last year ... or u want me to just tell u what’s different from last year?

Okay. Thanks.

I was confused by looking at that list and then your final comment. Thanks for clarifying.

Not asking you--or anyone--to agree, but outside of DawgTalkers and other Brown's info sources...............almost every outside source who talks about football [including current and former players, coaches, execs, etc.....and other media members] were almost unanimous in saying the Browns had the league's worst roster when the Analytics guys were in charge. That is NOT debatable.

Last year, most of those same folks said the Browns had as good of talent as any team in the league and lofty expectations were heaped upon them. I don't think that is debatable, either.

I think the three points I just listed in a reply to Diam that I said way back BEFORE the season were legit.

I think they are still legit moving forward.

Additionally, I think we regressed in the FO. We replaced proven talent evaluators w/proven failures.

Well, I was thinking of what's changed from last year.

However, if you don't think those 3 points were valid.....you can answer anyway you like. LOL

Baker will be on his 4th ... yes, 4th head coach entering his 3rd year in the NFL.

The Jimma Effect in full effect.

The final statement was mostly about Dorsey putting the talent there but the coaching wasn't there to compliment the talent.

That's all in the past..I also hope to see improvement.. Posting that list will kind of give all sides a look at how the newer FO is thinking on player evaluations compared to the the previous.

Maybe I'm using an analytical view or approach... comparing the past FO's decisions to the presents FO's decisions based on the facts that some people were here then not then here again could be a interesting way to watch how this all plays out.

I think your points were valid .... to respond what’s different this year ...

1. Teams having tape on Bake ... that was part of the problem no doubt ... especially seeing as how he was a one read about in 18 ... that’s make it much easier to defend ...

I think that was one factor ...

Sorry bro ... i literally gotta run and wanna give u a good response ... If i can get to it til tomorrow i will ...

Well, considering that most of the current FO was here BEFORE Dorsey.............I think it is okay to look at your Dorsey list and compare it to the Analytical List from the previous regime.

LOL man...........I'm sorry and I don't want to fight w/anyone. But, are y'all kidding me? Comparing the rosters of the Analytics dudes vs Dorsey's is not even close. We had the worst roster in the entire NFL under the direction of the Analytics crew to one of the very best in the entire league under Dorsey.

People might yell and scream and resort to name-calling and insults, but the rosters of two regimes are not even close.

No your right.. I'm not comparing anything right now.I'm just trying to give us all a look at what was then to what might be ahead...

Which would be useful information to ones that don't know...Crap am I being analytical ? Your a Teacher..did you use that approach ?

It's all good. You were providing information and it is appreciated.

I love analytics. I just think they are a tool and not the end-all. I also think you need the right guys using them. Our analytical guys have sucked ass. That doesn't mean that analytics are bad. It just means we need guys who are better at it.

I do want to add this.

Let's say you are evaluating players using analytics. You use the data to determine that a LBer has great speed, good hips, quick feet, shed-and-shield gifts, good downhill closing speed, a fast 40 time, etc, etc..........And you don't pay enough attention to the video to see that while he gets to the hole fast, that it is often the wrong hole. You don't see that he often overruns plays. You don't see that while he is fast, he takes terrible angles to ball carriers and receivers. They don't mention that he might not have heart when things go bad. They might not indicate that he takes plays off. Etc, etc.

It's a marriage.......bro. Don't let folks fool you that one approach is full-proof. Analytics are useful. However, they are a tool. Just like watching video is a tool. The best guys are the ones that can combine both.

In my opinion, nothing beats film study. I remember scouting a LBer who eventually went to Ohio State when I worked for the collegiate service and I noticed how he was running towards the hole where the ball carrier was going at the freaking snap. That dude studied film. That is HUGE! I think analytics are a tool that helps you differentiate between comparable players.

This just feels like a "I'm giving you a job because we are friends" move AKA "Good Ole Boy Club" move.

Not a fan of these types of hires. Hopefully he stays as consultant like Scot McG and then is not added to the staff post-draft.

At least Scott was good.

He loved Baker more than Dorsey and people are questioning Baker's value, so I guess "good" is in the eye of the beholder.

I don't know what Scot did outside of publicly saying he liked Baker. My thought at the time was Dorsey added him primarily for another Pro-Mayfield voice in the room. I was fine with that and fine with Baker.

I can't get over the Trent Richardson trade or ignoring the OL while in Indy. The rest wasn't too bad.

IMO, as far as drafts go, his first one was the only worth anything (2012). The rest...blah.

Definitely a "good ol boys club" hire.

Hand him his paycheck and keep his input to a minimum.

I'll maintain that the 3rd point on your list (Team Chemistry affected by strong-willed goofballs) wasn't as big a deal as people are making it out to be. I think coaching played far and away the biggest role in our crappy team chemistry. While the player culture certainly isn't a strength, I think the players bear too much of the blame when we talk about team culture. OBJ wasn't here, but when Williams was running the show, Baker wasn't nearly the snot he was this year, and even Randall kept quiet (and played).

I'll argue that point until a strong HC comes in and we still have attitude problems.

Or, he's just here as an extra pair of heads to help catch up on this offseason. With the FO still rounding into shape, they're getting further and further behind in terms of prepping for FA and the draft.

That is the NFL. Stefanski brought in a bunch of guys he worked with. Comfort zone. Guys you can trust.

I see this no different. Berry has worked with the guy and trusts his opinion on players. It's always good to have someone you can trust to bounce thoughts around.

We may be behind a little, but not much. I would say our initial big board is set. All the scouting reports have their grade and all the draftable players are ranked from the best to the last player with a draftable grade. The others are guys who could be UDFA targets

The combine will change some of those ranking. Maybe a few move up on their own, but several to many may drop or even be taken off the board. Possible a few we ranked undraftable are moved back up to the board.

We are probably a little behind on grading out our current team and setting our needs. Who we hope to keep and who we hope to replace or let go.

From my perspective regarding all the changes that have taken place with the FO and coaches:

Show me.

I have moved past speculating about new hires.

Over time when you look back on all that has gone down to the Browns I have grown numb.

The new FO and new coaches will do their best. They are fresh with the best intentions. Like the others before them.

I broke my crystal ball. Smashed it to pieces. Out of the prediction business.

I don't care who we sign as free agents. Not going to follow the draft. Not going to try and predict how the players added and the new staff will build a team.

Not interested in player personalities, or coaching philosophies. Don't care how decisions are derived. Be it analytics, old school scouting, or dumb luck.

My only interest is seeing a quality well coached team that wins games.

I don't expect to learn a thing until I see the team play when the games count.

Bingo.

Win football games.

The NFL would cease to exist if guys couldn’t hire their buddies.

I would consider that a slight problem. Seems too incestuous and narrows the window of talented, capable people.

Every team’s entire coaching staff is littered with their buddies. Same with the front offices. It’s just how it works. For example, Monte Kiffin works for the Buccaneers. Joe Woods works for the 49ers. Woods leaves for the Vikings because he knows Mike Tomlin and he is the new defensive coordinator. In Minnesota Woods runs into Kevin Stefanski. Woods goes a bunch of different places and ends up back in Cleveland with Stefanski. He hires Chris Kiffin as defensive line coach. The cycle continues. (Not to mention all the times in between Chris Kiffin got jobs because of who is dad/brother are.)

It is a slight problem because sometimes guys are hired just because they are friends with an important person. But it’s hard to argue with wanting to hire people you are familiar with. There needs to be a balance.

And that is all I am saying.

Like I said above, it is possible that Ryan Griffin is good at his job and that he’s just not meant to be a GM (he worked for the Seahawks for the last two years and they didn’t collapse). I would prefer he didn’t work for me team.

Well that's certainly a ringing endorsement.

Considering some of the hand-wringing going on because of this hire it is.

Well a turd is a turd no matter how much you polish it.

It happens every time like this,, nothing new

Except last year -- when we had what seemed like an arranged marriage... Kitchens had never worked with Monken or Wilks. Wonder how that happened...

I agree the talent is there. If they can produce some kind of discipline and present a coherent gameplan, the team has enough talent to win.

We hired Ryan Grigson before, I wanted to see what people said. We/they said basically the same thing we are saying now:

https://www.dawgtalkers.net/ubbthreads.ph...ive#Post1275344

That was never really addressed. Probably Dorsey making some recommendations. That isn't a knock. Seems I recall talk of giving Freddie some experienced coaches.

At any rate, it is probably a good example of why new coaches and GM's like to bring in their own people. People they have worked with in the past. You don't want to spend a year getting to know people, at least those in the key positions.

The CEO wants some VP's s/he can lean on knowing they will get it done.

The process engineer in the plant needs a maintenance manager who will get the job done.

The maintenance manager needs a lead man.

A restaurant manager needs a first assistance manager who gets things done.

Exactly. The Peter Principal. People reach the level of their incompetence. Just because this guy wasn't a good GM doesn't mean he wasn't a good talent guy. Look at Freddie. He isn't a head coach, but he is a darn good assistant coach.

Just because you aren't good at some job doesn't mean you aren't good at what got you there.

j/c:

A couple of posters who complained about Dorsey regime all the time are trying to sugar coat the Grigson hiring and the way the new FO is being built.

I ask that folks do a quick search on Grigson and have a look for yourselves instead of listening to their opinion or the polar opinion from folks like me.

It won't take long to find article after article on how much dysfunction was in the Colt's building while he was there. You will see many comments from players and coaches that might give you some insight. You will see his draft record and how he treated people. You will see that most folks blame him more than anyone for the sad story of Andrew Luck.

Don't take my word for it. Don't take the word of some others on this board that spin things out of control. Look for yourselves. It won't take long to form your own opinion. I promise.

There are folks trying to paint Dorsey as a bad guy and that he was the guy who couldn't work w/others. My contention is that a load of hog wash and it was the "analytic guys" and their hires that were the true sources of the dysfunction.

This is not going to end well.

It does happen all the time. However, some guys bring in guys that can really help and there are are other guys who are brought in who are absolute trash.

Once again, do a quick search for yourself on Grigson. There's all kinds of information about him. Check out his relationship w/his former HC and some of his players.

I did. I see all sorts of run ins with players etc. I earlier said he wasn't a good GM and possibly he isn't a good person.

What I can't find is info that got him promoted to GM with the Colts. I am sure the Colts didn't pick his name out of a hat.

I agree. I don't want him in a operations type position where he is dealing with players etc. He is here as a consultant.

I might be there with you if he starts gaining authority. I will just wait and see what he is going to do before I get upset about it. Berry likes the guy and has some trust in his opinions.

As I said in another post, right now Berry and Stefanski have to concentrate on our own players and upcoming free agency. They don't have all that much time to focus on the draft.

My guess he is here to help set the initial draft board...using our scouting reports. My guess is he was a pretty good scout. Most GMs came up from the scouting side of the game. A few not...Banner is one who I think didn't come up the scouting path.

Grigson could be similar to Dorsey where neither were good as GMs but better in secondary roles.

"Einhorn is Finkle?"

"Finkle is Einhorn?!"

"A couple" is a rather accurate sum.



Lolz.

I wouldn't say Dorsey wasn't good as a GM...he apparently did have issues dealing with people if they weren't under his thumb. He seemed to have the same deal in KC.

So he's a good General, just not a good Manager?

I think this idea of Dorsey not being able to work w/others is extremely exaggerated by quite a few folks who backed the analytics guys from the get-go and ran w/one freaking opinion piece.

The Brown's current FO and the one before Dorsey got here are the ones who have more incidents of not working well w/others.

I do not have proof, but I do believe that Depo and the remaining analytics guys turned on Dorsey right away. I can understand why. They believed in what they were doing. I also believe that Dorsey was not all that receptive to listening to a group of guys w/almost no experience running a football team and who orchestrated a 1 and 31 record w/the worst roster in the league. Thanks Jimmy.


I believe Depo and company were all up in Jimmy's head after this season didn't meet the expectations of the media and fan base.

There were a few of us who warned of the dangers of such lofty expectations. Of course, we were called haters and other such names. I maintain that it is so very hard to overcome a losing culture in football. This isn't the MLB or NBA where so many games are played. Even the worst teams win games in those leagues.

It was doomed to fail. Thanks Jimmy.

And it boggles my mind that people are happy w/going back to the guys who were 1 and 31 vs the guys who went 13-18-1. LOL..........that is so freaking crazy.

It reminds me of the quote by John Stuart Mill, who way back in the mid 1800's, said:

I agree.

I also find it hard to believe that we are a better team without Dorsey, Wolf, and Highsmith. (who all seemed to work well together)

Good point.

I think it would have been much wiser to keep Dorsey, Highsmith, and Wolf and send the Depo crew packing.

It would have been much easier to hire new analytics specialists than a new GM and supporting FO staff.

I think sometimes [not you] misunderstand my position. I actually believe in analytics. I just don't believe in the Brown's analytic guys. There are guys who are good in all fields. There are guys who are okay in all fields. There are guys who suck in all fields. Just because you embrace analytics doesn't make you good. Our analytic guys have sucked beyond belief.

They should all have been shown the door when Sashi was fired and replaced w/new analytic guys.

I think that analytics can be a useful tool .... just not always the 1st tool out of the toolbox. It has its uses, and can be very effective when used properly ... but it's not a universal tool that works in all instances.

It's simple. Most everyone here understands that there was a multi-year plan, the first 2 of those years (1 and 31) were the tear down years. That was no secret even if no one from the Browns ever officially confirmed it.

We also understand that last year and this year are about building it up.

So we're pretty confident that the tear down has already been done.

Another thing... you suggest we'd have been better off with Dorsey, Alonzo, and Wolf... we had that combination. Maybe DePo was able to get in Jimmy's ear after the fact but all appearances indicate that Dorsey was in full control while he was here (with maybe the exception of Hue being here when he came in). Past that? I'd really like to see at least one example of where prior to Freddie flopping that Dorsey was stymied by DePo.

A player, a coach, a trade... something that Dorsey really wanted but DePo wouldn't let him.

I think you're missing the point. Haslam created a Depo vs Dorsey culture in the building. It became less about doing the right thing and more about beating the other guy. Dorsey was trying to prove how good he was without the help of someone like Depo and Depo was just waiting for Dorsey to screw up. Dorsey won some battles, Depo won the war.

I don't think Kitchens is the coach at all if Depo had been shown the door prior to Kitchens being hired. Depo didn't want him so Dorsey did and he "flexed his muscles". And if he had hired Freddie even if Depo wasn't a part of the organization I think he would have been quick to correct his mistake. But with Depo there he wanted to stick with Freddie and give him more time. Again, nothing was done for the good of the Browns. It was done to win personal battles. And it all goes back to Haslam.

And now Haslam chose to back the guys with the least amount of experience.

I hope for all our sakes he's right.

And nowhere has there been mention of it being the first option. Show me one example of anyone saying it WHO WORKS FOR THE BROWNS. No op-Ed pieces, no rumor-mongering, no third party.

The analytics guy picked the GM and NC. All Haslam talked about was the need to unify under one flag ...and the importance of analytics.

j/c:

7 Browns contracts Andrew Berry might want off the books in 2020

CLEVELAND, Ohio – It’s officially salary dumping season in the NFL.

Teams are parting ways with contracts they don’t want on the books in 2020 as they prepare for free agency and the draft.

On Friday, news broke that the Redskins will release cornerback Josh Norman, saving then $12.5 million on the 2020 salary cap. Similarly, the Texans will release cornerback Vernon Hargreaves ($9.9 million savings) and the Ravens will move on from safety Tony Jefferson ($7 million in savings).

As Andrew Berry looks over the Browns contracts he inherited, he could decide to create more salary cap space as well.

The Browns have $49.5 million of cap space to work with in 2020. That puts them in the middle of the pack among NFL teams, which is quite a change from recent years. The Browns were in the top three — and first overall twice — in each of the last five years.

To increase the Browns’ cap space, here are seven players Berry might want to part with in 2020:

1. Olivier Vernon

Vernon’s contract counts $15.5 million against the cap in 2020, the final year of a deal he signed with the Giants in 2016. He’s coming off a disappointing season that was limited to 10 games by injuries. But this has become a trend. Vernon hasn’t played more than 12 games in a season since 2016.

Also, the Browns will question the production they got from Vernon. While he was fourth on the team in pressures (35), he had just four sacks in 10 games, the lowest total since his rookie season, and at least half of his total from the previous four seasons.

While many NFL contracts cost a team at least some salary cap space after a player is released (dead cap space), Vernon’s does not. That could make it even more enticing for the Browns to look elsewhere for Myles Garrett’s running mate on the edge.

2. Christian Kirksey

Kirksey has played nine games over the last two seasons, with a chest injury ending his 2019 season after two games.

He signed a four-year, $38-million contract extension in 2017 that runs through 2021, and the deal has more than $20 million left over the next two seasons. That’s a lot of money for a player that has struggled to stay healthy.

Kirksey is scheduled to count $9.9 million against the cap in 2020, but the Browns would be hit with just $2.4 million in dead cap if they move on.

Of current Browns, only Joel Bitonio has been with the franchise as long as Kirksey, a third-round pick in 2014. But it’s understandable if spending nearly $10 million to see if Kirksey can get back to his form of three years ago is too much for Berry.

3. T.J. Carrie

Carrie played 63 percent of the defensive snaps in 2019, eighth-most on the team. His ability to play in the slot and out wide was important as the defense dealt with injuries in the secondary.

Carrie also finished the season with the worst coverage grade of his career, according to Pro Football Focus, which put him at replacement level (47.7).

Carrie is due to make $8.1 million in 2020, with a dead cap hit of $1.8 million. Moving on from Carrie could make sense, especially if the Browns decide to keep Eric Murray from reaching free agency. Murray, while considered a safety, played 75 percent of his snaps in the slot. And he cost the Browns only $741,000 in 2019.

4. Chris Hubbard

The Browns are expected to seek upgrades at both offensive tackle positions this offseason. While Greg Robinson is headed toward free agency, Hubbard is under contract for three more seasons.

It has been a rough couple seasons for Hubbard on the edge. He led the team in quarterback pressures allowed each season (80 total), and gave up 12 sacks with 11 penalties.

His $7.2 million cap hit in 2020 is too much for a backup. Releasing him would save the Browns almost $5 million in cap space.

5. Adarius Taylor

Taylor is currently the second-highest paid Browns linebacker, behind Kirksey. And yet, he played only 60 defensive snaps in 2019. Instead, he was a workhorse on special teams, with more than 300 snaps.

But his $2.9 million cap hit in 2020 is a lot to pay for a special teams player who doesn’t touch the ball. The Browns could release him and save more than $2 million.

6. Terrance Mitchell

Mitchell went from 2018 starting cornerback to 2019 backup with the arrival of Greedy Williams. He started four games when injuries hit the secondary, but played more than 10 snaps just once in the other 12 games. That included seven games with no defensive snaps.

He’s due to make $3.6 million in 2020, third among Browns cornerbacks (behind Carrie, Denzel Ward). If the Browns want a cheaper alternative at backup corner, releasing Mitchell would only cost them $666,000 in dead cap space.

7. Eric Kush

Kush was signed last offseason by John Dorsey and expected to compete for the right guard spot. He got the job and started the first seven games of the season before being replaced by Wyatt Teller.

Kush’s contract pays him $2.4 million in 2020, but the Browns could save nearly $2 million by releasing him.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2020/02...ks-in-2020.html

All NFL front offices have "analytics guys" but usually they are mid-level staffers, not decision-makers.

and... we have 50 million in cap space available. Based on analytics, I don't see us signing anyone back from FA group.

I'd like to see us sign Randall, Schobert, Burris and possibly Murray.

LT Greg Robinson
QB Drew Stanton
WR Rashard Higgins
FS Damarious Randall
ILB Joe Schobert
FS Eric Murray
CB Justin Burris

RFA
RB Kareem Hunt (RFA) 1st rounder if we want to keep him/2nd if we want the pick
G Justin McCray (RFA) 2nd rounder if we want to keep him
TE Ricky Seals-Jones (RFA) first right
DE Bryan Cox Jr. (RFA) first right
WR Khadarel Hodge (ERFA) minimum
RB Dontrell Hilliard (ERFA) minimum
TE Pharaoh Brown (ERFA) minimum

if we let everyone walk we will have some huge holes to fill. Likely, too many in one year. (hopefully not the case)

Our window of opportunity is closing fast and we need to get our act together. We have about 2-3 more years of top premium talent left against being in a somewhat favorable cap situation. After that, we will have to play the saints and patriots and steelers game.

If we lose everyone
MLB 2 Free Safeties LT RT backup guards. 1 SS Burnett needs to go if he doesn't retire. Achilles injuries take 2 years to heal and he's 31.

2 OT's both need to be replaced
3 Safeties 2 FS and one SS Burnett is toast
1-2 OL Interior offensive line
1 DE (unless we keep Vernon)
2 Linebackers 1 in and 1 out (if we lose Scho)
1-2 Wide receiver 1 for the slot and 1 for the #4
1-2 TE 1 receiving and maybe 1 blocking
1 FB

All in all, we need to replace 10-11 starters if we let everyone walk. that's a lot and far too much to accomplish in one off-season.


side note... 2021 is a complete nightmare.
tons of FA and tons of cap space. (probably why Dorsey got the boot) and not waiting until next year.

Any connection between Kitchens and Wilks probably came through Arizona, But otherwise, Yeah, I think you are right

Dorsey created the hostile environment. He effectively gave a bunch of people still in the building the finger his first day on the job with the "real football players" claim. Let's make things up and blame the analytics guys, though.

Dorsey ignored the analytics guys and blasted them at every opportunity. The analytics guys did their job and provided information. They weren't out to get Dorsey. Dorsey's actions did him in.

If he'd done his job, things like making sure everyone was working together well instead of actively not working with people himself, he might still be here.

But he brought in talent!?!? That's not hard when you've got extra high draft picks and lots of cap space.

It's not guaranteed, as we've seen, but it's not really that unique.

Dorsey waged a one man war, Depo just did his job and reported on it. When you just do your job, the boss often lets you stick around. When you're the primary contributor to a hostile work environment and ignore some of your assigned responsibilities, your boss often has to let you go.

That's surface level anaylsis.

Dorsey and Depo should have never been made to work together.

That's on Haslam.

I don't believe the issue is football guys vs analytics guys. It was not Depodesta vs Dorsey. The problem was I don't think the football guys embraced analytics.

Dorsey made fun of analytics the second he arrived when he said "those guys, that system didn't bring good players," which he later had to backtrack.

Dorsey also hired a coach who didn't use analytics as well. How many times was it said Mayfield's greatest success was from 12 personnel and it didn't seem as though Freddie was listening.

It was as if those guys said "watch how great I am, we don't need to use the numbers." It was never Depo vs Dorsey.

Okie-dokie.

At least it had a basis in actual verifiable events. It wasn't rampant speculation on what Depo did behind closed doors.

Maybe Haslam shouldn't have hired "King John". That is on Haslam. Maybe he should have hired Wolf or someone else not quite so egocentric.

Dorsey seems best suited for a consultant job like his buddy, Scot McCloughan. Something where he doesn't have to work with other people all the time.

At least you used a qualifier. "seems" suited.

The only actual verifiable event is that Haslam is the common denominator. He has created a rotten stinking culture from the top down where nothing survives.

He's the root cause of it all.

And now he's going back to a 1-31 rerun.

#alignment

Is Morgan Burnett not listed because he will want to part with him? If not he should be number one the list.

Tearing down a team is not hard. You let good players walk. You cut other players who are well-paid. You trade away desired draft spots for future draft spots. That's not hard. That is the easy part. The hard part is choosing good players.

And the Analytics guys did a horrible job w/the choices they did make. Myles was a good pick, but there is information out there that the analytics guys preferred Mitchel "Freaking" Trubisky over Myles. They then traded the 12th overall pick when D. Watson was staring them right in the face. Their other high picks were disappointing. They decided to go w/a QB room of Kizer, Kessler, and Hogan. Those three guys did not own one single victory heading into the season. Their top 3 WRs were Kenny Britt [brilliant FA acquisition,] Corey Coleman, and Ricardo Louis.

The roster was universally regarded as the worst in the league by anyone who did not have strong emotional ties to the Browns. Dorsey comes in and the same folks who trashed the Brown's roster were now saying they had one of--if not the most--talented roster in the league.

So what does Haslam do? He almost certainly listens to Depo and fires Dorsey and his crew and replaces them w/the same guys who already proved they sucked.

It's mind-boggling.

Edit: A few posts after yours, someone posted an article about all the guys who might get cut by the "smart guys." LOL..............this is where the analytics group excels.

Don't worry, I doubt we let everyone go.

People keep saying that, but it isn't true. Haslam has said many times that we have a solid core group and are looking to build. We aren't looking to take it to the studs as Depodesta warned was going to be a hard process.

I don't mind you and others not liking the FO, but don't just make things up.

Please explain how other than Stefanski and the coaching staff how the FO is different than it was before Dorsey came to Cleveland?

It's fairly close, but that isn't the point. You keep saying on our way back to 1-31.

Part of that record is on the coach, but a big part was on the FO because that was the plan at the time. Get that through you thick head....I say that with love...

We aren't looking to rip it apart and stay in a constant state of rebuilding.

That doesn't mean we won't let players go. We will. That doesn't mean we might not trade down. We might.

But we aren't in a mode to accumulate picks above winning games.

Seriously Roy, just stop.

The GM is different.

There is all kind of evidence with direct quotes from Dorsey. example link

Haslam enabled the culture, he wasn't the cause of it. He didn't make people run their mouths. He did let guys pull the wool over his eyes. Brash can be inspiring during a hiring interview. It's much less so when you never turn it off and blame other people when you fail to back up the talk.

These are not mutually exclusive.

I would agree with you that enabling a culture and causing it are not mutually exclusive.

I don't understand how anyone can look at the evidence and come to this conclusion.

I agree w/you that Dorsey's group and Depo's group were put in a very uncomfortable situation. Depo's group was probably upset that they didn't get the opportunity to see their plan through and resented Dorsey and his crew. Dorsey was probably looking at the roster and the team's record and thinking you want me to listen to these guys?

That is on Haslam and no one else.

I side w/Dorsey's group. Others may side w/the Analytic group. That's understandable. Folks view things w/different perspectives. Trying to paint one side as all-good or all-bad is not very smart. Excusing what Haslam did is hard for me to understand. He created an adversarial environment and if you look back at the history of his ownership in Cleveland, that scenario has played out time after time after time. Texting plays from upstairs. Trades being called off due to many voices or outright insubordination. A coach pleading to be let out of his contract. Reports of Haslam stopping guys in the hallway and asking about other members of the organization.

I am trying to say that I really don't blame the analytics guys for not liking Dorsey or vice versa. It was a forced marriage that was sure to lead to dissension and even dysfunction. My contention is why even pair both groups? Haslam should have either stuck w/the Analytics guys or kicked them all out of the building. New analytics guys would not be all that hard to find. And it's obvious when there are only 32 teams in the league, that there are a multitude of prospective FO and coaching candidates.

I'm not a fan of Grigson either. I don't know how much influence he has, but it's safe to assume it's far less than when he was in Indy. That's what I choose to focus on regarding him. He's a cog, not 'the guy'.

While I'm not thrilled about canning Dorsey, I get it. You say that the reports about him not working well with others is exaggerated, but I'm not sure. I haven't seen anything that refutes the claim, and the little we do know seems to support it. Story is that he also wanted to keep Freddie. Was then approached with a diminished role (which is warranted if he really did want to keep Freddie) and he turned up his nose. I disagree with the move, and I hate the outcome, but I get it.

Now with the new FO. I'm not really happy with the return of the 1-31 group, but this bunch isn't being headed up by Sashi. I think that's critical. With him not in the picture, and not holding the main decision-making role, this is now a group of really smart football guys. They've been in and around the game and wear both hats ("football guys" and analytics dorks). I think the dynamic of this group is different in that they won't lean so heavily on the analytics.


I don't think they will do as good a job as Dorsey in terms of adding talent, but I also think they'll shed the '1-31' tag. They'll be ok. I'm hoping Stefanski will be enough of an improvement so we don't reboot again in 2 years.

Was it a forced marriage or did Dorsey say he'd work within a certain structure in an interview only to do something completely different once hired?

They got married too soon. Before they tried living with each other.

Did we even actually interview Dorsey? I think he was hired the same day Sashi was let go.

oober, most of the talk about Dorsey not working well w/others is on this board. There was the one article from KC that was mostly speculation. It's been repeated so many times on here and expounded upon that it seems that there are dozens of reports about Dorsey not working well w/others.

I think that depiction is false. In fact, I clearly remember him saying something about treating others decently in the PC where Hue and Haley were fired. He has a good rep in the league where others trust him.

Not asking you to believe w/me or agree w/me. However, I am going to maintain that him being such a jerk is manufactured. I do think that there was a built-in problem w/the marriage of Dorsey's group to Depo's, as I laid out in my last post.

So... without any proof you'll say Sashi Brown was difficult to get along/work with, but "without any proof" you'll say Dorsey wasn't difficult to get along/work with...

Agenda much?

There would be speculation involved with that premise, but it's possible.

This for me sums up my thoughts on Dorsey...




We were heading for disaster, I think it's important that we aborted.


Link

I respect that. I see where you're coming from. Where we disagree is that I think the depiction of Dorsey is probably more accurate than not. I'm sure it's been stretched and twisted artificially into what we "know" today. I just think the basic idea behind it is probably mostly true.
Also, most if not all the info coming out, on both sides of the argument, is mostly rumor and innuendo. Hard to make a definitive statement either way. Hell, we still can't even agree on who was actually making the draft picks from the regime before... how are we supposed to know what KJ was like behind closed doors?

I laid out the sequence of events that makes most sense to me, and KJ being how I think he is fits with that theory and lines up with certain rumors. It's not perfect, but it's the best I've got.

Giving Dorsey less time than Hue indicates something was up. Being let go in KC indicates something was up. The flexing on people, real football player, and numerous other quotes given publicly indicate Dorsey had issues.

Organizations always get rid of the guy that wasn't causing problems.

It does make me question the Grigson addition. He seems to basically be Dorsey without the scouting acumen. That and I don't see any way trading a 1st round pick for a bust RB makes sense at all, let alone with analytics. It would be silly to bring a guy in just to remind Berry what not to do. Unfortunately, that makes the most sense of the possible explanations I've come up with, which is basically saying it doesn't make any sense.

First of all, I don't want to get into it w/you and that group of yours. I will reply this one time, but I would prefer that we not speak again.

I did not say Sashi was exclusively hard to get along with. I was referring to the analytics team in general. Sashi was a part of that group.

I do think there is evidence that they weren't easy to get along with. Not telling Hue who they were going to draft is evidence. Wylie's comments in the Albright tweets is further evidence. While they may have been right, it was still insubordination w/the McCarron deal. Joe Thomas had multiple remarks about how the FO did things to undermine the coaching staff. Osweiler's comment indicates that Sashi was the one who declared that he lost his starting job. The comments from other teams about how trades were undermined because there were too many voices in the room when Sashi was working under Farmer was alarming.

Thus, I think there is plenty of evidence and I am not just making things up because of my "agenda." You can reply back w/your typical insults, but I really don't want to speak w/guys like you and Memphis again. It's better for the board that we don't speak to one another. I hope you guys can at least respect that.

I'm okay w/you not agreeing w/me. I think you are a good dude and valuable poster. It's okay to disagree. I probably am going to continue w/my opinions because I truly believe that firing Dorsey was the worst move the Browns have made since their rebirth.

Fossilized poop doesn't need to be polished and can still be worth $1000's.

Hilarious, isn't it?

Then by your own admission, all they've ever shown us they know how to do is tear a team down to the studs. All they've shown they can do is build a crappy roster. You seem to indicate that doesn't make any difference. I say it does. There's zero evidence that this FO group knows how to build and keep a winning team together. That my friend is what people need to get through their thick heads.

That doesn't mean it's impossible, but if Haslam thought they could do it in the first place, he never would have hired Dorsey. So this is nothing more than Haslam second guessing himself and so far his guesses on this group haven't shown us any reason to believe they have some secret ability they have never shown.



You mean stop questioning a FO group that has shown zero ability to build an actual winning team ever? Why would anyone do that?

Likewise.

While I wouldn't put it quite as dramatically (due to the Freddie Kitchen hire), I am also (at the end of the day) not a fan of canning Dorsey.

You can question all you want. You have to be fair.

Those guys weren't allowed to reap the benefit of the extra picks. We don't know how they would have done.

I am glad Dorsey made many of the picks.

The problem before was Sashi and the collaborative approach. Sashi was only a tie breaker. He wasn't GM. I think we have that fixed now with Berry the final word. Fixed in the sense that we will know who made the picks. When Sashi was here were they collaborative to the point they passed on guys until they all agreed on one? I agree, that isn't the way to draft players.

Someone has to say this is who we are taking, and then live with the decision.

Sure, these guys might fail. Just like Sashi in the lead and John in the lead failed.

I think Berry will do a good job.

Actually I have posted quotes directly from Sashi's moth that he was the GM here. You can slice and dice it any way you wish, but when you have control of the 53 man roster, you are the GM. When you are the tie breaker, you are the one who controls the final decisions.

And you seem to be debating a point that we both agree on. There is zero evidence to indicate whether this will be a success or not.

There is however overwhelming evidence that we have gone back to many of the powers that be that proved to be an utter failure.

And one other point here. IF Haslam felt that he could have simply dismissed Sashi, restructured the other powers that be who were here at that time and find success, why didn't he?

Who has been chewing on his ear that convinced him that going back to those same people would work now when he obviously didn't believe it would work then?

I don't know who has been chewing what, but I do have to say I am glad we don't have the idiot who hired Freddie as head coach because he wanted to flex his muscles.

It's not my fault or the new decision makers fault the the old ones failed to win.


That is the bottom line. JD was given everything.
He had a multitude of picks.. He was allowed to hand pick his coach, and he failed.


How much do you want to bet he wishes he could take a do over on the coach pick?


Sorry man, "football guy" wasn't good at picking a football coach.

He had it all, was doing fine, then he made the fatal decision.
Sad. I wish JD peace. He will chew on that one a long time. Maybe until death.

We had a monstrous schedule last year. I posted the final records of the teams on another thread, and it was brutal.

We'll see how Berry does with the foundation that Dorsey delivered. We should expect big steps forward. We have a 1st, a 2nd, and 2 3rd rounders .... so according to some board "draft experts", we should expect to add 4 starter quality, impact players. I have a bad feeling about this whole series of changes, but we'll see.

I hope we do well. I don't know of anybody who expects 4 impact players with our first 4 picks.

"Football guy" didn't deliver that, yet now you expect that?

Go cry somewhere else, and it really does pain me to say that. We have been friends around here for 20 years,.

People are complaining because Dorsey missed on Corbett and Chad Thomas in 2018, and saying that's a justification for moving on from him. Corbett was a 2nd and Thomas was a 3rd.

What's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.

Not sure how that applies?



Bottom line, Dorsey failed. The record tells the tale.


He had it all. He had control. He had the picks, he got to pick his coach. Jimmy gave it all to him, and he made a a few colossal blunders.

You can't miss on your HC choice as badly as he did on top of blowing the first pick of the 2nd round in Corbett.

That just isn't going to work for any owner.

I think Dorsey deserved a pass on choosing Freddie as HC. He might have needed to agree to more of a consensus type pick this time around. If that's what he couldn't live with, then I can't blame the Browns for the "divorce". But I have a feeling Haslam and DePodesta wanted Dorsey to accept a demotion beyond just sharing the next head coach hire. I think they also wanted a group approach on the roster; cuts, FA pickups, and draft choices. If that's the case, I don't blame Dorsey for opting out.

Bingo.

And that scenario would have never existed if it weren't for Haslam creating differing factions within the organization.

If Dorsey doesn't choos such an awful head coach he'd still be here..... Haslam gets as lot of blame... but Dorsey picked a dud at head coach... main reason he's gone...

jay, I like you and this is not an insult.

However, all kinds of GMs choose poor head coaches and are not fired. Also, I don't know why this board refuses to acknowledge that Baker wanted Freddie as his HC? That's not an insult towards Baker. I just think that JD was trying to do as much as possible to make his first overall draft choice successful and happy.

The board doesn't refuse to acknowledge anything bro. Most of us just choose not to blame Dorsey's quitting on Baker.

You misunderstood or are misrepresenting my point. That's okay. I'd rather not discuss things w/you anymore. The "I quit reading..." comment was the last straw.

For the rest of you............I was not "blaming" Baker. I even thought I mentioned that it was not an insult because I know how sensitive the Baker Boys can be. I was just saying that it's hard to blame Dorsey for trying to support his QB. Period.

If Dorsey went with Freddie because baker wante him he's an idiot...

I didn't want Dorsey fired.... but his two biggest decisions wer head coach (disaster) and QB (not looking great currently)

I really thought Dorsey was the right choice and would have us in the right direction... dude added a ton of talent.... but ultimately is not here and I think mainly because he bombed on head coach,,,

How are Depo, Berry, Grigson, and company who went 1 and 31 a better option than Dorsey, Highsmith, Wolf, and company?

Maybe .. just maybe .. Depo, Berry, Grigson, and SASHI went 1 - 31, because the plan was to lose and gain picks. To trade down and gain picks, to even buy contracts, to gain picks. I believe they discovered that picking in the 12 - 19 position, no one was gaining any ground. That the Browns could not get better without losing and gaining multiple top 5 draft picks first. Which is exactly what happened. We got Myles, Baker and Denzel due to 1 - 31.

There is no maybe about it. That was the plan. I have never argued otherwise.

However, maybe....just maybe..........that you might want to make good decisions w/the picks you do have? Yes? No? Are you implying that drafting crappy players was "part of the plan?"

Also, do you not think that drafting good players when they were available might have been smarter?

Look man, please don't try and talk down to me like I am ignorant w/your "Maybe....just maybe" comment. I am far from ignorant.

We can have different opinions and I am good w/that. You might think Depo saying Wentz was not a top 20 qb is accurate. You might think that wanting Trubiski over Myles was smart. You might think that not drafting Mahommes number 1 was smart. You might think that passing on Watson at 12 was brilliant. You might think C. Coleman was a brilliant choice. You might think drafting a dude who player LBer in college to play FS was brilliant. You might believe trading up for Njoku was really smart. That's all cool and I won't mock you for those choices.

But dawg...........don't try and play me for the fool.

Ehhh, no I'm not. That's your new thing -- Dorsey quitting was Baker's fault. You've repeated it numerous times. You've also said you're not even a Browns fan anymore... because - Baker.

Keep spinning.

Okay...........you think I am liar. I am not going to argue w/you. I am just not going to respond to you again. Have a nice life.

Cool story. Talk to you tomorrow.

I'm not playing you for a fool Vers, I know that not all picks were good. I do know that Myles was chosen by Sashi and the boys, and I think that that talk of drafting Trubisky was subterfuge. Both the Statisticians and Dorsey missed on picks, but when the plan was to lose to acquire high draft picks, I do not think that should be held against them. To tell the truth, I'm kinda meh on Wentz, I'm still not sure he was worth #2 draft pick.

jmho

Why would a team picking 1st overall need any kind of misdirection?

I mean, seriously.

Both the Myles and Baker picks were kept top secret. Why? What does it gain the team?

Because teams have been known to give away an outrageous wealth of picks for the coveted first overall. What is to gain by telling them what you are doing?

Again, what difference does it make?

Maybe you reveal that you are considering 2 or 3 players, or maybe you disclose the player you are going to pick and panic a team into a ridiculous trade.

I just don't see anything to be gained from such top secret spycraft. Heck, not that long ago, teams had their #1 overall 1st round pick signed before the draft.

It was a way to shape the draft. It was a way to see what you could get offered, a way to see what other teams were willing to give up. If you show an interest in 2 or three players, other teams will show their plans, and who they might want, beyond the speculation of the tv talking heads. You find out who someone wants by what they may be willing to give up for them, what they offer you for a trade to your position.

Hue had running mouth and had his own personal PR Sportswriter. They had to keep Hue in the dark because he could not keep his mouth shut. It all depends on who you want and what someone is willing to give up to get what they want.

look at the Bengals .. would you be willing to trade them this years #10, this years #2, and next years #2 for Chase Young ? This is something they may want to know .. Can they turn this year's #1 pick into 3 picks, and build their team better...

Dorsey WAS given a pass on his HC choice. He wasn't fired and was asked to stay and most likely wouldn't be the final voice on the HC hire (among other things).

I also don't blame Dorsey, but this is also EXACTLY what led to his firing in Kansas City. We are better off now than had Dorsey remained. His eye for talent will be missed but all the crap will not. And Kansas City just won the super bowl. I'd say our future is bright.

j/c

Imagine if the previous regime was given the reprieve people are asking that Dorsey get.

"...the front office was responsible for 1-31, but Dorsey's team could have won more with a different head coach..."

The double standard is alive and well.

Well, we know Haslam and Dorsey failed at picking a HC. We'll see how this group's pick turns out. Couldn't be any worse than the last two.

Okay, I'm sorry if I misinterpreted you.

I have seen the theory of the FO not telling Hue because he would have told the media, but he didn't do that in other drafts. He did not do that when Dorsey drafted Baker.

I think it is far more likely that guys in the FO and coaching staff were not working well together.

There was a lot of friction created between the analytics boys and Hue Jackson. Hue was doing all he could to insure that the Browns did not make a huge mistake and take Trubisky or trade the pick away.

It did not appear that Hue was getting alot of support from Haslam at that time, either.

Where did the info about people in the front office wanting Trubisky come from? I know it was reported, but where did it come from? Somebody on the inside had to leak that info. if in fact it is true.

Hue was suspected to be loose lipped. Possibly the team told Hue about Trubisky to see if it surfaced. Teams test people in the organization to see if rumors surface in the media or elsewhere. Any organization.

In the end, we took Garrett. I doubt it had anything to do with Hue plastering pictures of Garrett around the building.

Anyway, why are we still talking about Hue and Sashi?

Berry is smart. Has a football background, unlike Sashi. He is well respected around the league and was seen as a up and coming GM candidate.

Nothing correlates between then and now.

I thought it had more to do with the pick after. IIRC, in at least one of those drafts, we had another pick soon after the first pick. It makes sense to keep teams guessing to get what you want out of that second pick.

The info is out there in a couple of places. The most reliable is from Seth Wickersham, who had inside access w/the club. He is the guy who also quoted Dorsey's "I flexed my muscles" comment that is constantly used as an indictment of Dorsey on this board.

You can't tell the media if Dorsey doesn't tell you who he's picking, either.

link

I know it's there. That is why I said I know it has been published. I am wondering where he got the info?

And I only finger pointed Hue. It could have come from Sashi. Teams do blow smoke around draft time.

Chicago was 3nd in that draft and traded up with SF to get the 2nd pick. They paid a lot to move that 1 spot...I don't recall the specifics.

Maybe we let out interest in Tribusky to see if Chicago would jump to #1? No doubt that would have meant we would have lost Garrett to SF who took Solomon Thomas after the Bears took the QB, but possibly we felt if the offer was good enough, it was worth the swap. Sitting at 3 with even more picks isn't a bad thing.

Like they say, everything has a price.

I am glad we stood pat and took Garrett.

We had the #1 pick. Had we really wanted Trubisky and thought him a true franchise guy, we would have selected him.

You don't trade out of a QB you feel is the guy. You trade up for those guys if the team sitting there doesn't need a QB.

Come on man, you know that's true.

The writer had inside access. He wrote of how Hue even put up Myle's name on office windows and how Hue said he would not support Trubisky.

I think it is obvious that Jimmy Haslam sometimes sided w/the Analytics guys and sometimes w/the coaching staff.

It's fine if you don't want to believe the evidence. I do find it funny how some things are "true" from an article and other things are made-up from the very same article.

The only "rumors" about Trubisky came out a year after the fact. If Jimmy wanted Trubisky he would have fired Hue and drafted the QB. Hue couldn't keep his mouth shut and was kept in the dark. For all we know, he may have suspected we were looking at Trub and voiced his opinion. Someone publishing an article, that doesn't even say we wanted to draft Trubisky but merely infers that it may have been true, doesn't make it fact.

We drafted Myles Garrett. That FACT is indisputable, is it not? I guess some may suspect that "Hue flexed his muscles and got what he wanted". Seems strange to assume that because Hue didn't like Trub that it means everyone else did. Even stranger when we didn't even draft the guy.

Cool, we just disagree. No problem.

I still maintain had we really though Trubisky was our guy, we would have selected him.

Teams don't pass on drafting the QB they feel is "the guy" when they have the chance. They just don't.


Myles was our guy all along. We will never know if the Bears did make a offer to us, but if so, it evidently didn't make it worth losing Garrett on the cheap.

Lets try this angle...your team needs everything. You have the first pick in the draft. You have a DE who you feel will be a Bruce Smith type and QB you feel will be...name any franchise QB who ends up HOF caliber, just like Smith was at his position. You need both.

You take the QB. It isn't even a close decision. You know that.

Believe what you will. I stated my case and arguing further would just be regurgitating our opinions.

So I win, right? Sounds like it.


Just giving you a brotherly noogie on the top of the head. I am glad you are posting again.

Just understand, even if I get ticked, I always try to maintain some respect for those who show some respect for me. You do, and I have for a long time. For me, the past counts and is hard to erase.

Some silly stuff like this isn't going to erase that.


All that matters is we start winning. That fixes everything wrong with us Browns fans.

Does it matter... It's all yesterdays news... To heck with it.

Let's see where we go from here.

I believe just after Garrett was drafted, Sashi came out in a post-draft press conference or interview and said the team knew for a couple of weeks who they were going to take. And clearly, that answer was Garrett.

I have no doubt the team considered any and all options, including Trubisky and other players/trade options. Do you know why?....because that is literally their freaking job to do so.

I agree Da-man, it silly stuff. You are another. We have been brothers for 20 years or more. Sometimes brother beat the crap out of each other. At least that is how it worked with my brothers, but we still loved each other.

As the oldest brother, I could do that all day long to them, but if someone else did, "Houston, we have a problem".

The problem with this statement is, they are "the old ones".




So he built a roster that almost everyone across the country said had great talent, but he hired the wrong coach. Yeah, when you don't bat 1000 run the man out on a rail.




Every GM in the NFL wishes they had some do overs.




This is the kind of response you get from a person who wishes to accentuate a mistake without pointing out all of the good to try and make a point.

Once you see the results from this group you may wish Dorsey was back and had a chance to hire another HC. You may end up chewing on posts like these for a long time. Maybe until death.

This is not true.

I was speaking in response to the ongoing debate that the "analytics guys" wanted Trubinsky and the implication that it took a Herculean effort by Hue Jackson to prevent it.

I should be more careful with spelling out context in full sentences in the future, since parts of posts seem to be cherry picked a lot around here.

The rumors that that the Browns wanted to draft Trubisky and changed their mind because Huey cried like a spoiled brat and hung MG posters in Jimmy's office came out in the ESPN article on Jan 24, 2019.

I guess if you consider a spoiled brat someone who helped us dodge a bullet, I agree.

Nah... there was no bullet there in the first place, we were drafting Myles Garrett.

Dodging a bullet is making sure aforementioned spoiled brat doesn't trade a high 2nd round pick for a career b/u QB - hats off to Sashi for that one.

2nd AND a 3rd!!!

Did Hue help us dodge a bullet? Sounds more like he almost pushed us into a bullet because, according to some on here, the analytics guys would do anything just to spite the football guys. If that was the case, drafting Trubisky would have been a great way of getting rid of Hue. Fortunately, doing things to spite the other side has only actually been a "football guy" move, and the football Bros are gone now.

I guess that all depends on who you wish to believe. You are no different by asserting things you have no way of actually knowing.

I wasn't asserting anything. I was trying to illustrate how ridiculous that style of argument was. I thought about spelling it out, but figured the eye roll emoji was enough. I should have known better.

Of course, if I had spelled it out, I'm sure you'd still have seen something you didn't like or made something up completely that you could complain about.

Combine can't come soon enough. It'll be nice to have something substantive to consider.

Next, they will be telling us that someone did a voice over on Depo and he never really said that Wentz wasn't a top 20 qb. Then, we'll hear how D. Watson was really not available when the Browns traded the 12th overall pick. They'll say things like C. Coleman was good pick, but just ruined by Hue. Or maybe, that the Kizer, Kessler, Hogan QB room was actually very good and the coaching was the problem. They might tell us that Britt, Coleman, and Louis were a great WR corps.

Sometimes, this board is like reading a Fantasy novel.

Because Depodesta is still here.

Evidently some believe this is a reversion to the time when those two were here (it's not).

Yeah, old Bull Dawg has been on a roll lately. He thinks attacking the messenger makes him special. It's becomng quite a habit of his. It's quite unbecoming of one who has convinced himself how intelligent he is.

Yeah, when you point things out it tends to anger the crowd.

U were right .... what’s changed?

- HOPEFULLY Bake learned an important lesson last year and works his arse off this off season ... i was wrong about a lot last year and that started with Bake’s work ethic ... i thought he had a great one and he’d work hard ... he admitted as much that he didn’t .. u were right about that also ...

Hopefully he puts the time in and is capable of learning how to read D’s .. some folks just can’t process info fast enough ... hopefully he can ... if not, case closed and nuttin else really matters cause he will never be more than a one read qb and that is easy peazy to defend ...



Turns out u were right ... based off his pedigree and what he did with the O in 18 I thought he had a good chance ... problem is he was way worse than either of us thought ... being worse than i thought was an easy bar to clear but u had it set pretty high and he cleared it easily .. *L* ... he forgot everything he knew about running an O and calling plays from the year before ...

What’s changed .... I’m afraid to say this but I can’t see Kev being near as bad .. he doesn’t have the years of experience or the endorsements from some of the best ever but unless he goes brain dead were in better hands than we were last year ... hopefully much much better ones .. *L* ..

I also all ready like his DC more than the moron we had in here last year ... i was dead wrong about that also ... i thought maybe COMMON SENSE would prevail ... why we hired Wilkes is beyond me ... he took Ward and Greedy and made them play a ton of zone ... that’s the exact opposite of utilizing their talent ... the interview would have ended then if it were me ... it could have been done over the phone .. *L* ...



I don’t think that had a thing to do with last years debacle unless u want to throw Bake’s attitude in the mix ... his attitude last off season cost us dearly ...

As u we’ll know winning cures a lot of ills and I don’t believe the # of new players or how strong willed they were or how much the pups had experienced losing ... i thought Freddie, Bake, Wilkes, injuries, stupidity and penalties led to the crap we saw last year ...

The one thing that hasn’t changed YET is the talent is still there ... hopefully that a few good additions and coaching do the trick ... KJ certainly lest one hell of a foundation regardless of what the dolls are saying and i have no clue what there saying ... i haven’t been on or reading much ... i only posted this cause i told u i would ...

Thanks for responding, Diam. Good post.

Did you make it back to SC okay?

Let me begin by saying I wasn't asking to see who was wrong or right on Baker, Freddie, and team chemistry. I just thought they were the three most important factors on how well the Browns played. I was asking if you agreed that those were the three biggest factors in how the Browns performed last year.

I feel like I am not stating that right. I am saying that I didn't say Baker and Freddie would fail. I just thought that both would either lead us to the top or be the main source of our struggles. I'll get to the chemistry thing in a bit.

I'll start w/Baker. I think this team has as much talent as any in the league. Dorsey did a great job of assembling a talented roster. I actually considered placing a bet on Baker being the league's MVP last year. LOL...no kidding. I still think he has a chance to be very good due to his moxie and arm talent. I just think his attitude is terrible, he panics too early in the pocket, and he can't read coverages. He did a bad job w/blocking protections, too. Thus, I still think that he is biggest key to the team this upcoming year.

Coaching: I agree w/you that it can't get much worse than Freddie, but the new dude has never been a HC and his personality does not seem suited to handling large egos and big personalities. Hell, he couldn't handle Diggs, Theilan, and Cousins. The "Yes Man" part of his duties is troublesome. He might be a great HC. He might not be. Thus, I think the HC is still a huge factor in how the team does this year.

Chemistry: When I talked about chemistry, I wasn't really referring to how guys got along. I was referring to all the new pieces, some egos, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, a team who had to overcome a terrible losing culture that was the result of the Analytics guys thinking this was baseball or basketball. I told you when that group first came here that it's just so hard to overcome a losing culture in football. Additionally, we didn't have many guys on the roster who won a lot. That hurts when things get tough. Further compounding the problem was that there were such high expectations for the team. Thus, I questioned how the team would react if they struggled early on. I think that was a huge key to the season. I think it should be a big part of this season, as well.

I think all three keys are still question marks for this upcoming season. Nothing has been answered. We still have a QB who we are not certain as to how he plays. We still have a HC and staff that has a ton of question marks. And we probably still have a locker room that could melt down just as easily as unite.

There is another caveat for this upcoming season. Yes, we still have great talent....but, the guys who made one poor roster decision after another are back in charge. Who the hell knows what the hell of an influence they will make? Can you imagine if they start making stupid cuts and trades again? These guys [according to players on the team like Joe Thomas] don't understand a locker room.

Unless we go on a fire sale and get rid of guys like Chubb for beans, in my opinion I think you might be over estimating the impact of cutting players. I think if we were shown anything last year is that there was no singular person that the entire team rallied around. I'm just having a hard time picturing which of these guys on the roster is so popular that it would have such a demoralizing effect beyond the annual "it's a business" player response.

For me the most important component is going to be Stefanski. Its going to be his job to keep whomever is not let go focused and ready for the next play. Just like when a player goes gets hurt during the game.

Just what kind of and how effective of a leader will Stefanski be is something you've previously questioned and rightly so. But if he's doing his job well, DePo, Berry.. even Jimmy... it really won't matter what they are doing as the team will be insulated by Stefanski.

Unless they bring in some real d-bag type players with craptastic attitudes.

But we'll see.

You may want to continue to criticize them for 1-31 and that's your prerogative, but while those players may have lacked in talent, many of them were high character, hard working types. I don't think that was an accident.

I'll try and be more clear. I am not over or under-estimating anything. I am not speaking about things that are known, as in this guy is good or this guy is bad. The entire premise of a series of posts is about question marks moving forward. Things that will be key to success/failure of the team next season.

I don't remember if it was on this thread or another, but in a previous post I mentioned that the previous rendition of this FO was not afraid to spend in FA when the numbers told them to do so. I brought up Zeitler as an example, and cited from memory an article about the thought process that gave KZ that behemoth (at the time) contract.

I have been trying to dig up the article where I read it, but ultimately failed. The OBJ/Vernon trade kind of washed away a lot of the older stuff. Here is the best I could find.

https://lastwordonprofootball.com/2017/05/03/sashi-brown-turning-browns-around/

There's a paragraph near the bottom mentioning how OL was hard to evaluate in the draft, which is why Sashi and co. decided to lock it down in FA (Zeitler, Tretter, Bitonio extension).

Thanks for finding this! It's definitely an interesting read but I don't know if I reach the same conclusions in reading it that you do. I think Sashi Brown's front office signed Tretter and Zeitler because there were huge holes at their positions and it was a bad offensive line draft (according to the article you posted). Overall I think the article was a little too simplistic in what the "numbers" actually mean.

It wasn't the article I recalled, but it was the closest I could find. It mentioned that drafting linemen was tough (in any draft), which partially informed the decision to address the line via FA.

As for the article itself, I'm not a fan of the piece as a whole, but there are informative nuggets sprinkled throughout.

I think probably what makes drafting lineman so tough is what appears to me to be a consistent over estimating just how versatile a lot of these guys are alleged to be. It's like a death sentence to get drafted with a reputation of being "versatile" because when they get to training they get spread out instead of focusing on the position they were successful at. Yes, players must be familiar with what other positions are doing, but being familiar and pushing for proficiency are two different things.

It used to be that it was "safe" to choose offensive linemen high in the draft. That's changed a lot mostly due to the amount of Spread offenses in the college game.

It's a transition to constantly go from playing in a 2-point stance in college to having to play from a 3-pt stance in the NFL. Also, in college, offensive linemen are typically asked to be human shields w/the body positioning to create running lanes. In the NFL, they are often asked to move defenders against their will. This physicality can often separate guys.

You also have to factor in that many guys are asked to switch formations and even positions once they get to the NFL. We often read a comment like, draft [insert a LT's name] and play him at RT for a couple of years until he's ready. That sounds easy, but it can be quite an adjustment.

I just think that it's hard to get a really good look at many collegiate offensive linemen due to the differences in their game and the NFL. The same can obviously be said for QBs, but that is another discussion.

You could argue that we "ruined" Cam Erving and Austin Corbett by shuffling them all around the line in order to find them a spot. By trying to find them a spot, we ensured that they would never find a spot.

But it doesn't appear that either of them (Corbett is still TBD) will make a breakthrough with their new teams. KC's line is not good, and Erving wasn't on the field for the SB.

It could just be they're not that good. Similar situations with how many of the "can't miss" tackle prospects that have flamed out.

this.

I would hope tjis is a scenario that will happedn.

Coach: We need to upgrade our ILB

Analytics: Our numbers indicate we have three ILB's that top the list who fits that need

Scout ; After watching film, talking to players and doing the eye test this is how we rank those three.

GM: based on this Player A is the one


I know very simplistic, but you get the gist.

I'm highly skeptical of this FO, but my hope is that this particular blend/rendition of the 'nerd-FO' is a much better blend of analytics and football experience.

Before it felt like we had a collection of people that were either "all-stats" or "all-football". Hue was all-football. Sashi and DePo were all-stats. Very oil-and-water.

Now, each person seems to be familiar/comfortable with both.

This is not accurate.

What was their football experience prior to taking on their jobs in that FO?

What does that have to with relying only on stats to make decisions?

Were Berry and scouts not there for input?

The ongoing inaccuracies continue to, well, continue.

Nothing.

Just more proof of the common misconception of the previous regime.

A lot of people didn't "get it."

Cam was moved around the line because he was horrible wherever we tried him. He has his chances at each position. He was just bad.

Sashi and DePo were the key decision-makers. Sashi was the salary cap guy before being elevated to whatever the position it was that made him the final decision-maker. DePo was from baseball. Those two had no more football knowledge than Hue had stats knowledge.

They did have Berry and scouts and so forth, but those guys weren't the decision-makers, which is why I left them out in my first comment. I don't think I made that part clear, though. However, you took exception with my general characterization of Sash and DePo as being "all-stats", and I stand by it, as they didn't have the football FO experience.

Depo and Sashi both played football at Harvard. Depo always wanted to be a coach. His first job out of college was in the CFL. Then guess what, he was hired by the Indians, yes, the Cleveland Indians. Depo has been a part of the Browns organization's Front Office for 3 years now, but people are still treating him like a rookie. Plus, Berry is in charge of the 53 man roster.

Take a look at the first draft they did ,... try doing it OBJECTIVELY for a change ..

Never mind ,,, i forgot all u know about the game is numbers ...

I don't disagree with anything you said about decision-makers. I've gone on record several times that Brown was THE decision maker. He obviously was.

But they weren't only "all stats" guys and decisions were not made in a vacuum like that. I'm sorry but input came from Berry and scouts, and unfortunately, even Hue when it came to decision-making. In fact, Brown was on record saying they were going to rely on Hue for the QB spot, to quote you, the "all football" guy. Ex- RG3 "moved the ground beneath his feet" comment?

Go ahead and believe the opposite if you'd like....

I feel it's a good time to go back and point out my earlier post.

I mentioned that the first go-around of this FO was more of an oil-and-water setup. Now, we have guys in decision-making roles that are more well-rounded (Kevin, Berry, hell even DePo has now been in a football org for a few years).

I have no interest in doing a full re-hash of the Sashi era. If you're arguing that Sashi and DePo, individually, had a blend of stats and football experience, then we're probably not going to find much common ground on this little tangent we're on.

I am saying... that regime didn't rely on "all-stats" to make decisions.

That's not was I was trying to communicate either.

Then that's my bad.

Probably my bad too. I need to be more clear when I mention that regime and making comparisons. It's too easy to devolve into the old arguments.

No some people started a rumor that Depo was in charge of Football decisions. Then kept spewing that same crap over, and over, and over again till a few others around here starting taking it as a fact when it's not. That's when I started opening my big mouth.

Haha!

They just complain about things they don't understand. It isn't being stupid, it is just being ignorant. There is a difference. And being ignorant is unforgivable. Stupid people don't have the cognitive ability to learn.

Ignorant people refuse to or don't want to learn.


As I have said many times, Paul Brown was a analytics junkie. He brought it in to the game. In to sports for that matter.

If you think analytics doesn't work, you are telling me Paul Brown was a POS coach.

That's the bottom line. I think Paul was a pretty darn good coach. He figured things out before the meatheads did.

Little wonder.

Lots of that around here.

Not all that many. Just a few loudmouths., so it seems like many.

They post up a thread and keep bumping it to the top. Get a few replies, then bump up again 1 reply at a time.

Point well taken. I amend "lots" to a "handful".

j/c:

And isn't it ironic, don't you think...

If your referring to me here once again i call BS ... and u can talk til your blue in the face ... the two following points are 100% FACT based off ACTIONS not your sources ...

1. Depo is jnot just a set up the process dude .... he was in on the decision for hiring Kev big time ... your not a dolt and better at math than the 0 + 0 = 0 is complicated math crew ...

He was in on every interview and wanted kev last year ... we hire him this year ... gimme a break he wasn’t a pat of THAT DECISION .... that is not just setting up processes ...

2. He does have the thief’s ear ... it’s OBVIOUS to anyone with a brain that is objective ... him and KJ didn’t get along and KJ is not gone ... u do the math ...

IMO he will stay it of Barry’s/Kev way but that’s pure spec on my part ... he TRUSTS them cause there numbers geeks like him ... he never had that with KJ ...

And let me guess .. he had hitting to do with the decision to hire the overrated one as of now ... that would be his fellow ivy leaguer GM ..

If your referring to me ... your WRONG AGAIN brother ...

So there ...

Channeling your inner Alanis?

I was not referring to you so unbunch your panties



Was he asked his opinion... sure so were a a bunch of others you know team effort. Was he in charge, did he make the call, did he tell the Haslems to do it. No, no, and HELL NO



He was in on many interviews in all departments not just hiring a GM or a coach. I mean come on he set up the process they are using to run the organization, but he does not tell the GM, or the Coach, or the Haslams what to do in football matters.



So do a lot of people in the front office.



Once again I wasn't refering to you. I think 99 percent of the folks around here know who I was talking about.

I'm going to say what I've always said when we've had a regime change; let's give it a chance. No change has been successful yet so LOA we're due. Maybe this time will be the charm

Who ran to the boss, crying about Dorsey and the decisions made by Dorsey when the team failed to live up to expectations in 2019?

Who used the results of the 2019 season to expand his own influence with the boss, at the expense of the current (2019) GM?

Who asked the boss to punish Dorsey by reducing his authority as the team's GM? ...you get one guess!

Who ran the search committee that just managed to interview many qualified, experienced HC candidates only to "miraculously" decide on hiring the guy that Depodesta wanted to hire last year?

Who hired the GM, who just happened to be the same guy that worked for Depodesta in 2017/18?

You know the answer, even though you have trouble repeating the answer or admitting the truth!

I refuse to apologize for NOT BEING A FOLLOWER, blindly following some dude who is more interested in building "his own business", rather than building the Browns into a winner.

How many failures in the NFL does anyone get?...those who accumulate a record of "1 win and 31 losses over a 2 season period" while playing MONEYBALL?..how many GET A SECOND CHANCE with a record of 1 win and 31 losses, over a two year period?

Depodesta got A SECOND CHANCE to build upon the successes of a "real GM"! A real GM who improved upon the Browns win/loss totals from 1 win (31 losses) over the 2016 and 2017 seasons...

...IMPROVING UPON THE BROWNS WIN RECORD TO 13 wins (18 losses) over the 2018 and 2019 seasons?


I would say that a line in the sand has been established and nothing less than 9 or 10 wins should be termed "acceptable" if ownership is using the same standards to judge the Depodesta MONEYBALLERS.

Just get the Browns to the playoffs...THAT IS ALL I'M ASKING FOR from the Moneyballers...MAC

Maybe the menZas should explain it to the verZas.

I think in this case it was the macZa...

I was referring to the 1 percenters.

Can anyone explain to me where the obsession with DePodesta comes from regarding people?

He’s apparently some Rasputin-like devil.

It's more a question of how much input and control he has than anything else. Not so much that there's anything evil about it.

Let's face it, two regimes and three HC's have come and gone while Depo remains. The HC that was just hired was his preference last year when Freddie was hired.

When everyone around you gets fired or leaves..... twice... When the guy you wants hired as HC gets hired as HC, it's obvious your influence is pretty huge.

It's not really quite the debatable topic some wish to make it out to be.

It doesn't mean he runs the team or calls all the shots as has been suggested by some. It's also a much more influential role than some are willing to admit as well.

Usually when two extremely opposing views are presented you find the truth is found squarely in the middle.

I agree with the last sentence emphatically.

I guess my question is why people are so caught up in it. I only see a front office guy doing front office stuff.

Some people have been mourning the NFL death of Sashi ever since he was ran out of Cleveland. Some of us have found humor in that.

#TheHandful

j/c:

Name-calling is alive and well on this board.

Not really an answer to my question. Give it another go.

Nobody



NOBODY




nobody



Depo.... although you try to screw that up as well. Just because a guy has experience does not mean he is good, and the guy Depo wanted last year is also the same guy others in the front office wanted last year instead of Freddie.



Jimmy, Dee, and several others, including Depo.



You got it half right. I do know the answer, but your the one denying the truth.



I never ever expected you to Be a follower. I only expect you to stop spreading lies bro. Hell I have no clue if this change is going to be good or bad for the Browns. I wanted Dorsey to stay myself.



I don't know and I don't care since Depo was not, and is not in charge.



It's not possible to get a second chance when you never had a first chance



The Haslams may or may not as well. Patients is not one of their values.



That part we can agree on Mac.

Yes, there are about a hand full of you.

j/c

Since some folks are still attempting to undermine DePo's credibility claiming that he doesn't have any football experience and there for what he wants to do can't possibly work...

did it work in baseball?

Well then, what was his experience with baseball prior to?

Because according to some of you, logically then, he shouldn't have been successful there.

I'm also still amazed how much effort people put in to being purposefully ignorant. Applied Analytic is a concept. Once that concept is applied to a specific concentration, then it becomes a system. Labelling what he is doing as moneyball, or trying to tell people that he's trying to fit football in to a baseball system is just plain stupid.

Analytics in MLB vs. NBA.. similar in concept, different systems.

Articles on your Facebook Feed, suggested "next YouTube videos", even the ads that pop up on DT... all applied analytics in concept, just different in systems.

"But Devil.. DePo can't do that here! Because the Browns and the next cat video on YouTube aren't anything alike!"

SMDH

Speaking for myself, I don't like it when DePo has more say in the day-to-day stuff. I get that his role is supposed to be set back from the front lines... and that I agree with. It's him having more of a say in the earlier drafts that worry me.

Those are the same people who walk around in the dark bumping into walls without a clue why they can't see when it's pitch black. Some folks don't want to hear the truth. They just want to live in the fantasy world going on inside their head.

I don't think he has any say, but I wish he did.

As I explained a few posts back, Depo provides information. It's up to others to buy.

Think of him as an advisor. Think stocks if you will.

Depo provides a list that says buy early 70's McDonalds stock. Buy late 70's Microsoft and Apple. Buy this Netflix player.

Depo is around for a reason. Depo isn't being retained because he gave bad recommendations.

Haslam gets the info.


I am sure some didn't hit, but you only need to get it right 2-3 times a draft to be ahead of the game.

Any fool should be able to make most top round picks right. It's the third and down round guys that make a draft.


You have to hit down there too.

The Brown's drafts were awful when he and his guys were in charge. Dorsey's drafts were far superior. The trades and FA pick-ups aren't even close. The cuts aren't even close.

You are rewriting history, peen. And I am not sure why you are stooping to that level???

Netflix player

That's my take as well, peen...

Thank God that Dorsey did not "buy" and actually acquired real talent.

Not asking you guys to agree. That is just "my take."

This is just my opinion, But I agree that Dorsey brought a lot of talent to the team. He was our best GM since 1999 and I hated to see him go

I was out on a call trying to sell some of my art when I got a text from a bro on here about the news. He said something like "it just keeps getting more unreal." It was a 3-way text and the other dude says something like "I can't believe this crap." I say, "now what?" But, I knew...

First dude says: "your worst nightmare just became official."

Bro, for the first time ever.............I totally lost my faith in the Browns. Others may disagree and I am okay w/that, but I think the Browns made the worst decision that I can ever remember.

I vowed to not root for them again. But, I'm not sure how I will react when the games start again. How do you quit on something that's been your life-long love affair?

I think that is what upsets me the most......those pieces of crap count on our loyalty and what great fans the Browns have had for decades, even though they have given us very little to cheer for since our rebirth. I resent how they take advantage of our loyalty.

Bro, I'm still mad as hell. And hurt as all get out. We finally had a crew that was trending in the right direction and we forced them out and went back to the stench of the guys who have no clue about what "culture" means in football.

This is NOT baseball or basketball. You don't lose a game and play the next day or day after. You play once a freaking week and only 16 games. Losing that much is so freaking hard to overcome.

Sorry for venting, bro. And I am not asking you to agree w/me. I'm just at wit's end w/this franchise.

Dorsey had more draft capital and cap space than anybody in the history of the NFL. FACTS... please dispute it. Get off his jock.

j/c:

I think one of the things that people are overlooking is what Dorsey did outside of the draft.

He got Landry for a 4th round pick. That is one of the biggest steals in the history of the NFL.

He traded the scrub Kizer for Randall. Yep, Randall kind of lost his cookies this past year, but Kizer stinks beyond belief.

He got a draft pick for Kessler. Seriously.

He got a draft pick for Hogan. I know that sound like I made it up, but he really did.

He stole OBJ from the Giants.

He obtained Hunt who had won a league rushing title for peanuts.

He got a 3rd round pick for Duke after Baker basically made him untradable w/his big mouth.

He got a 4th round pick for Avery after spending a 5th round pick on him and having a DC who would not play him.

He did have some bad moves or at least......questionable moves. The Zeitler for Vernon trade did not work out. I understand it. An edge rusher to compliment Myles was more important than a RG. But, it didn't work out and he deserves some criticism here.

So, not only did he bring in a lot of talent in the draft.........the dude made all kinds of moves that helped the team go from what was widely regarded as the worst roster in the league to one of--if not thee--best in the league!

Haslam is so freaking dumb!

I should stay out, I quit this argument a year ago. It remains the same people making the same arguments without anyone budging from their entrenched positions.

It is my take that Sashi was NOT trying to build the team on the field. Judging him from that point of view misses the point.

His focus was building the assets and resources to attract a real GM, someone like Dorsey. Dorsey would not have taken the job in '16 (if he had been available) because the Browns were a cluster of mismatched players (schematically speaking) and limited resources. The best player on the team was an OL. There were some good players, but aside from Thomas none top tier.

Sashi built the available assets at the cost of the team on the field. He let good players walk in favor of draft picks. He traded picks for more/better picks in the future. The picks he did make, and FA pickups were primarily place holders. He avoided long term contracts. The only real effort he put into (on-field) team building was the drafting of Garrett and the FA pick ups of Zeitler and Tretter. He didn't try to draft a franchise QB so the incoming GM wouldn't be saddled with a QB that didn't match his plan.

This was by design so that the GM when hired, would have a blank canvas and a full warchest of assets to build HIS team. Sashi's goal, in my view, was not to build the team, but to attract the sort of GM who could. Enter John Dorsey.

That the Browns didn't stick with the plan was Haslam's fault. Instead of fostering a cooperative work atmosphere, he instead created an atmosphere of competition and in-fighting.

I respect that you liked Sashi's plan. I really respect that you made your point w/out insulting other posters like so many others do that think the same way you do.

I truly hope this does not offend you because I think you are a good poster and a good man. We just disagree on some things and that is no big deal in my mind.

I agree w/you about Sashi's plan of tearing it down. My contention w/your POV is that I don't think that drafting bad players and passing on good players was ever part of the plan. Yeah, you can trade out of the 2nd overall pick. Yes, you can trade down. But dawg..........passing on good players and drafting stiffs is not how you build a team.

Sashi and his team had a terrible draft record. That is not news. It's a fact.

I get that you are passionate about believing in Sashi. That's fine. I just respectfully disagree w/your take on him compared to Dorsey and I hope you can accept that, as well.

I'm not saying he compared well with Dorsey. Dorsey was the best GM I can remember for the Browns. My point is that Sashi wasn't trying to build the on-field team. He was setting the stage for someone who could. If you draft a promising prospect, and the new GM is building a scheme where he doesn't fit well, have you helped the team in the long run? How about a pocket statue style QB when the GM will want a mobile QB.

You have faulted Sashi for passing on talents like Wentz and Watson, and I agree, had he been trying to build a team he should have drafted one or the other. They say the fate of a GM is tied to the QB he picks. Sashi didn't want to make such a critical decision and saddle the eventual GM with a first round QB that didn't fit his plan. So instead he picked up place holders like Kessler, Griffin, and Hogan and let Dorsey pick HIS QB.

Okay. I am not really following you here when you say things like "Sashi didn't want to make such a critical decision and saddle the eventual GM with a first round QB that didn't fit his plan," but maybe I am just too tired to comprehend correctly?

There is an old rule.............if you don't have a franchise qb, you draft one that you think can be a franchise qb.

Depo said that they did not think Wentz was a top 20 qb. That was dumb. Dude took a team full of practice squad players on O this year to the playoffs. I know a lot of folks on here don't watch games, but what Wentz did this year was incredible!!!! Hell, I didn't want the Browns to draft him at #2, but I can admit I was wrong.

I also thought Watson was a bit inaccurate, but at number 12? That was a colossal mistake. I hate saying this, but thank God he got hurt in his rookie season or we would have ended up w/a lot worse draft pick.

I'm sorry............but, in my opinion........Sashi and the Analytic team were duds. They made so many poor decisions.

I have no problem w/you disagreeing w/that last statement. I'm good w/various opinions and I am not trying to be confrontational. I am just voicing my opinion that that particular group made one horrendous decision after another and we then got rid of the guys who transformed this roster into being very good for a repeat of 1 and 31.

It's like Science Fiction.

I respect your opinion, and appreciate that we can disagree without rancor.

Likewise. You could be right. I could be right. Perhaps the truth is somewhere in the middle. In my opinion, you are a good poster and I appreciate the honest debate. Take care, brother.

I'm not sure how anyone can claim Dorsey was a good GM and it was a mistake to move on from him while claiming he misfired on the overall #1 pick as well as saying the previous GM should be fired for missing on the #15 pick alone.

All these things can not be true.

Every year I see numerous posts about missing selecting this guy or missing on that guy. Hell, every team in the NFL has that complaint. Plus, it's very easy to second guess the teams pick. Heck, I remember this very board going crazy because we took Thomas instead of Peterson. A future first ballot hall of famer and we still have people questioning that pick.

That said, this is what I seen with Baker last year. After what could be assumed as a great rookie season where Freddie let Baker play to his strengths, in 2019 the Browns tried and failed to make Baker a more standard type of QB because of the weapons they had assembled. I believe that it is a huge mistake to draft a shotgun wide open offense QB and expect him to totally change his skill set at the NFL level and expect him to be successful.

Baltimore was successful last year building their offense to Jackson's strengths, not the NFL standard. KC's offense is built to Mahomes strengths and it's risks. Even Winston in TB finally had a breakout year because they built the offense to his strengths but the risks came with that aka the large amount of interceptions. Just think though what happens this year in Tampa if Winston cuts those INTs in half while still throwing for over 5,000 yds?

Baker is a high risk high reward QB. The job of the coaches is to tap that skill set while limiting the risks. You can't change the QB with a particular skill set and expect him to be successful - 2019 proved that without a doubt. Now, the Browns need some tackles to solidify the line. I'd love to see them get Perriman back to play the outside receiver spot. I think that would take some pressure off Landry and OBJ. The final piece on offense would be an upgrade at TE where I think the team is lacking. Henry from the LAC or Hooper from ATL would be a huge upgrade at the position.

This is the most important thing to watch from the Browns as they start practice. Is the Brown's offense comparable to Oklahoma's run & shoot or are the Brown's trying to make Baker into a shell of a Bress, Wentz, or Prescott. If you want that type of QB then you should scrape the project with Baker and draft that type of QB. If you want the Baker Mayfield that won the Heisman and was a national contender then build the offense to his skill set. If 2019 proved anything, the successful teams played to their QB's skill set and not to the QB standard. The Browns have invested into a high risk high reward type of player - build the team offense to his skill set and work on improving that skill set instead of changing the player. The Brown's success is dependent on developing his skill set - not changing it.

J/C:

Sashi never got to pick his HC. His FO and Hue rarely agreed on anything. As a result, we seemed to end up with a bunch of compromise picks or picks that one side or the other didn't love. They kicked the can down the road because they didn't agree on the top guys. Unfortunately, that happens when you're forced to work with someone you don't agree with/have philosophical differences with from the jump.

Dorsey pretty much did whatever he wanted. He flexed his muscles and got his guys. He brought in talent, but the overall product put on the field was a disjointed mess. There's more to the GM job than just scouting. If he was just writing scouting reports he'd probably be amazing. Lack of communication and organization were his downfall. Throw Hue and Haley together and watch them explode. Throw Freddie and Monken together and watch them explode. The "talent" has to actually fit together. Getting rid of his own players a year after drafting them because they no longer fit gives the appearance that he didn't really have a plan. "Get talent", on its own, isn't a plan.

Berry and Stefanski seem to have "picked each other" during past searches, and were put together this year. They both seem to be detail oriented and make plans. I don't think the "Get talent" part is as difficult as people make it out to be, or at least even those who are "good" at it aren't foolproof (See Corbett, Thomas, Callaway, etc.) To me the "analytics guys" were at least given a real chance this time. They have to actually show they can do the work now, but they're finally starting from what appears to be a workable, rational foundation and are putting together real plans that they might actually follow and stick to.

Prediction: Andrew Berry will be fired after just two years as GM.

Really going out on a limb there.

I'd set the line at -2000.

j/c:

Kevin Stefanski and Andrew Berry, shared meals and the plan for the Cleveland Browns to win quiet

INDIANAPOLIS -- What would a Kevin Stefanski-Andrew Berry argument sound and feel like? Maybe like listening to whale sounds while reading a J. Crew catalogue?

It has been smooth sailing so far for the new coach and general manager of the Browns, as one month ago their previous years-long respectful friendship morphed into a working partnership. Since Berry’s hiring on Jan. 27, Stefanski and Berry have been part of almost daily meetings, some of them planned, others blossoming after popping into each other’s offices, as they reshape this version of the win-now Browns.

“We spend a lot of time together,” Berry said at the NFL combine on Tuesday. “On a daily basis, weekends, breakfast together. We enjoy spending time together. We have a good relationship.”

Berry might swing into Stefanski’s office for a quick question and it will turn into a 30-minute session of the coach drawing plays. Stefanski might return the favor and wind up with a half-hour Berry explanation of free agent options.

But no fights.

“Nothing of substance,” Stefanski said when I asked for any potential tiffs. “I wanted to pick up the bill (at breakfast) and he wouldn’t let me? Does that count?”

“We arm-wrestled for it,” Berry said, “so I beat him pretty soundly.”

This was the 1-2 punch in action, the show that was previously unveiled in Cleveland during hiring season now hitting the road at the combine, where Berry and Stefanski followed each other to the same interview podium Tuesday afternoon like sweater models on a runway. They are a style and personality match, though Berry claims Stefanski has the better sense of humor.

Berry watched Stefanski’s interview session Tuesday and laughed several times. Stefanski watched the profile of Berry on the TODAY show Tuesday morning and was impressed, while Berry was too self-conscious to watch it himself.

I’m writing about them hanging out together because I have little idea about what they’re doing with the roster. They’re mostly in the business of soothingly keeping secrets.

That isn’t a bad thing in the name of winning. None of this is mocking the new braintrust -- I might be admiring it. But this is a warning that these guys aren’t going to help much during the NFL silly season, of which looming free agency and planning for the draft are primary components. Mary Kay Cabot is still going to get to the bottom of everything and let you know the plans for this roster, because she always does. But Berry admitted he sounded like a broken record while non-answering multiple questions about players on Tuesday.

Why? I told Berry that both he and Stefanski were circumspect with what they were willing to say about the roster, and that was the closest we may see to an angry Berry for years. He didn’t raise his voice or lose his smile or do any of the things that would indicate anger. But he said, “I’d probably push back on that.”

The idea of Berry disagreeing with my assessment made me look up the definition of “circumspect," because now he had me thinking I didn’t know words good. He does know. He previously had said, off the top of his head, that there were 160 starting offensive linemen in the league, adding, “Someone check my math, sorry, I’m not very good there." I pulled out my cell phone and opened the calculator and did five times 32 and of course it was 160, so I told Berry that he was right, but I also told him he actually already knew that.

Because of course he knew. He and Stefanski know exactly what they’re doing. Not the details, but the shared vision. Stefanski agreed that the franchise plan was already locked in.

“We’re very clear on what we want to be," Stefanski said.

That includes Berry meeting with position coaches to get an idea of the types of players to acquire that will fit the skills each position coach desires. That includes Stefanski’s plan to watch every top offensive tackle in the draft so that if Berry drafts one at No. 10, the GM will have a clear idea on who his coach prefers. They’ll tell each other everything. But they won’t tell us.

My definition check of circumspect as “wary and unwilling to take risks” with their words turned out to be correct. And this is why they do it.

“I guess from our perspective we answer any question with what we believe is the appropriate detail," Berry said. "There is some sensitivity with strategic advantage, but maybe I’d push back on the notion that we’re too circumspect.”

Berry’s point is that no teams reveal any plans at the combine. That’s true. But there’s a lot of bait thrown in the water. Some GMs and coaches nibble. John Dorsey didn’t say much in this area either, but a year ago I left the combine with a staunch belief that the Browns were ready to go for it, and Dorsey traded for Odell Beckham Jr. weeks later. Now, who knows?

The mellifluous tones of coach and GM, in concert, can hypnotize you, and I should know, because I once was hypnotized on vacation and held my shoe over my head like it was the Lion King cub. If the Browns are keeping secrets, it’s because they’re making plans. Immediately after pushing back on circumspect, Berry was asked for the position group in this draft that’s the deepest.

I’m not going to comment on specifics,” he began, before explaining that good players exist at every position.

Tuesday’s contrast from Dorsey and Freddie Kitchens a year ago, as you know, was obvious. The Browns last year tried to win loud. Now, they’ll try to win quiet. The old 1-31 Browns front office, of which Berry was a part, didn’t say much either, and losing quiet can be difficult on fans, because misery is worse when it’s vague.

But winning quiet would be different. So no fights, but plenty of plans.

“We’ve had really productive discussions, and while it may not sound like a disagreement with one side yelling at the other,” Stefanski said, “I think we push each other to think about a question from a different angle. I’m going to try to push him, and he’s going to try to push me, but it’s just going to come from a place of mutual respect.”

A soothing approach. And maybe, a winning one.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2020/02...-win-quiet.html

In other words .. Stefanski will not be taping pictures of Chase Young all over Haslam's office, then running to his favorite reporter complaining.

I think Browns fans should be happy that happened. But maybe not.

https://operations.nfl.com/updates/the-game/2019-big-data-bowl-winners-announced/

Article on Sterken:

https://www.geekwire.com/2019/nate-sterken/

When the analytics revolution started in other sports teams started hoarding guys like this so other teams didn't have access to their information. We should be hiring guys like this more in the future.

Did the team not have a sports science guy on staff previously?

I read that we did not.

That is insane and irresponsible.

As @MikeGarafolo first reported, Shaun Huls is being hired by the #Browns as director of high performance, a new position for the team. Spent last 7 years with the #Eagles.

@RuiterWrongFan

This is truly unbelievable. I just figured every NFL team has a sports science staff monitoring their players 24/7. Basically every MLB and NBA team has a sports science team that monitors their players on a daily basis through tracking and baseline testing. I figured that in a sport like the NFL, where the rigors are huge and health/availability is of the utmost importance, that every person would have a person like this on staff. I'm even more shocked because I figured Sashi Brown would have hired a sports science person when he was in charge.

Anyway, at least we now have a person like this in place. Hopefully it will keep players a bit more healthy and more able to contribute on the field.

At least we now have the wisdom in place to do so.

J/c:

I'm pretty sure we had someone doing those things as part of their job. Now we have someone who is entirely focused on it.

Edit: This guy's bio has a sports science tag:

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/team/coaches-roster/josh-christovich

Director of high performance? Is that the void created by not re-signing Greg Robinson?

I will admit that this was my first thought. Robinson was making moves for his post-football career.

According to Peen that would have been impossible because we didn't have anyone here with the wisdom to do that before.

Read this:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000001...ign=Twitter_atn

Wow. Good stuff.


INDIANAPOLIS -- This was not the type of rebuild Andrew Berry was thinking about after being hired as vice president of football operations and general manager of the struggling Cleveland Browns last month. Only two weeks into the job, the slender 32-year-old realized his body was going through a transformation. Clothes that used to fit snuggly suddenly had some give to them.

A wiseguy could speculate that the loss of 10 pounds was tied to the stress of trying to turn around a franchise that has not made the playoffs in nearly two decades. The truth was much simpler: Berry simply hadn't had time to work out.

"You're dealing with so many elements and things involved with the transition that you're in the office from sun up to sun down," he said this week during a break at the annual NFL Scouting Combine. "I wasn't eating well and I wasn't exercising. I was just trying to get organized with a new football operation and a new football staff on the front end. When things finally got settled, it was like, Man, I've got to go find a gym to work out or I'm going to go crazy."

The weight has begun to return, thanks to 5:15 a.m. CrossFit sessions. The question now is whether the rebuild of the Browns will be as quick or easy. History says it won't: The franchise has had only two winning seasons since returning to the league in 1999, is currently breaking in its eighth head coach and eighth general manager in the last 12 years and has not appeared in the playoffs since 2002.

Berry, the league's youngest general manager and one of only two African American general managers, knows the history well after witnessing it from the inside, serving as vice president of player personnel in Cleveland from 2016 through '18, when the Browns went 8-39-1. If there is scar tissue, it's not visible. Instead, there is genuine excitement on his face when he talks about trying to reward one of pro sport's best fan bases for its loyalty and support.

"I'm really not focused on the past or trying to differentiate myself from the past," Berry said. "I'm more focused on what we can control moving forward. My focus is daily, weekly, on the things in my job that we can execute at the highest level. History is history, and I don't think it's a fruitful use of my time to talk about things that are not in my control."

Berry, a former cornerback at Harvard who has a bachelor's degree in economics and a master's in computer science, is thoughtful and measured in his words and his actions. He speaks evenly and with conviction, preferring to rely on data and science over emotion and intuition.

His maturity and character caught the eyes of Tom Telesco a little over a decade ago, when Telesco, then a scout with the Indianapolis Colts, attended a Harvard-Holy Cross game and read a story about Berry in the program. Telesco was so impressed, he thought Berry would be a good fit with the Colts and wrote Berry's name as someone to track into the spring for a potential entry-level job, which came to fruition.

"The rest is history," said Telesco, now general manager of the Los Angeles Chargers. "None of us are surprised by his ascension."

Berry has used his first four weeks to create a culture that he believes will be conducive to success. The Browns seemingly have been searching for an identity on the personnel side and the football side since the Haslam family purchased the team in 2012. They've tried experienced and inexperienced, old-school and new-school. The result has been six head coaches and five general managers (or someone with that level of authority) during that time.

Berry has made it a priority to have everyone reading from the same page, and he believes this can only be achieved with open communication and synergy among what he calls the senior leadership: chief strategy officer Paul DePodesta, new coach Kevin Stefanski and himself. To that end, he starts each morning with a half-hour meeting with Stefanski, to discuss the things that might occur during the day.

"You want to work through everything from a football philosophy standpoint and an organizational philosophy standpoint so you don't go off-script and there's confusion," Berry said. "You want to remove all the gray, which sets a foundation in terms of how we want to build the team, how we want to play, and how we want our staffs across football operations to interact and function on a daily basis. If we don't set a firm direction and an aligned direction, then we're going to go off and not be on the same page. So building the relationships, the philosophies and the vision were early priorities before we started doing anything tactical. Once that foundation is set, it makes it easier to operate, because you now have a common framework and a common vision for any decision or any discussion that you will have."

He and Stefanski got to know each other after the 2018 season, when Berry was part of the search staff for a new Browns coach to replace Hue Jackson. Stefanski was interviewed by Cleveland then, though Freddie Kitchens was ultimately hired. Berry and Stefanski hit it off and remained in contact throughout the 2019 season, when Berry was an executive with the Eagles and Stefanski was the offensive coordinator with the Vikings. After a hyped Browns roster floundered to a 6-10 finish, Kitchens and GM John Dorsey were both let go. Stefanski was hired in January, and Berry followed not long after.

If Berry, Stefanski and DePodesta -- who also was bullish on Stefanski from those earlier interviews -- share a common trait, it's their willingness to listen and learn from each other.

"The best piece of advice I got after taking the job was from Paul, who said: 'Now you're in a position where almost every conversation you have is the other person's most important conversation of the day,' " Berry said. "I had not heard that before, but it's something that has proven to be true over the first four weeks, because if it gets to my desk, it's of importance to that person."

Lessons such as that have helped facilitate a smooth transition. Another factor working in Berry's favor is his patience. He did not seek to make dramatic changes, such as with scouts. Members of that department have been working for nearly a year using a specific type of system, so it would be foolish to make significant changes so close to this April's draft. That doesn't mean you compromise on your non-negotiables, such as how you build your draft board or conduct your meetings, but you want to limit uncertainty and confusion.

"It's easier for one person to adjust than for 25 people to adjust," Berry said.

If changes are to come in that area, they will be after the draft. It's part of the plan Berry laid out for himself, to take things one step at a time.

"You think through what to prioritize on the front end before taking the job," he said. "That doesn't make it any easier to execute, because you have a hundred things that are thrown at you that initial week. But you just try to prioritize things, whether it's the first 10 days or first 90 days -- what is the actual important stuff? You're not going to be able to do everything, and you're not going to be able to get everything up and running exactly as you want it in the first week, the first month and, certainly, the first 90 days. So it's building the relationship with coach and staff, focusing on the draft and free agency, and helping Kevin in rounding out the assistants for his coaching staff. And then when you get to post-draft, you can deal with some of the larger football operations initiatives."

By then, Berry is sure to have regained all his weight -- and more. Because he's carrying the hopes of an entire city on his shoulders.

Wait! So we didn't fire all of our scouting department like some claimed?

If Andrew Berry knows what he is doing than he would be after Brandon Aiyuk from Arizona State

That is your one take-away?

I have said this on two other threads. I like what I am hearing about Andrew Berry. Very intelligent. Very driven. Raised by great parents. Seems to be a nice guy and very level-headed. He is very impressive.

I don't know if he can draft. I believe he was a pro scout in Indy and not a college scout. The draft choices for the two first years when he the main talent evaluator were horrible. Maybe he was overruled by Sashi, Depo, or Haslam? I don't know. But, some of the decisions were horrific and really hurt this franchise.

I am rooting for the guy even if I think others in the organization are not very nice people.

No, it wasn't my only take away. I feel much as you do.

My comment was a comment like everybody makes around here once is a while...just a poke in the ribs to those who clamored on for days that our scouting department was gone.

I think you are correct. I think Berry was a pro, not college scout. It can make a difference. You have to be able to project on college players, but I don't think that will be a big problem. As a pro scout, you aren't looking at a teams top of the roster, you are looking more at back-up and practice guys, or guys who are free agents with pro experience. You have to project them as well.

Plus, he isn't really doing that. He, along with a few others is setting our draft boards, then making the final decision, trusting the information provided by those assigned to gather the information.

It's my understand that there are still scouts in house that were here when he was here and even some who were here before John arrived, so trusting the information shouldn't be a big issue.

Daryl Morey (changed basketball forever), Bill James (changed baseball forever), Sashi Brown, and moderator.

This is mind numbing stuff. What exactly is there to discuss in the off-season for 30 mins each day. Under every new hire, its always the same non-sense. Meaningless words that mean nothing. Haslam has all his scripts down for all the emplpyees to say the same thing over and over after every change

The Coleman pick never made much sense IMO. An oft-injured pick who didn’t highly produce at his position. We’ve had a lot of them, but this was as bad of a pick as any

There is no substitute for "football experience"...

I agree with you opinion here...but FWIW...I believe he was the highest rated WR in the draft. I know...I know...another Browns thing of being "the tallest midget".

I just did a bit of research on the Wide Receiver class of 2016.

Coleman was in the top 5 on most sites. Mayock had him 2nd. DraftWire had him 5th. Walter had him 3rd. BleacherReport had him 3rd. SBNation had him 4th.

Positives were that he was quick, tough, had big-play ability, could beat you over the top.

Negatives were that he had 17 drops in last 2 seasons, ran only 4 routes in college, injury concerns, quicker than fast, lacked explosion.

*The most surprising thing is I was looking at the various rankings and saw Higgins name pop-up further down the boards. I looked at a couple of the sites and I did not even see Ricardo Louis' name listed in the top 44 on one site and top 47 on another. Both ended on those respective spots. That is the pick I never understood and still don't. Dude was terrible!

Here is a page that contains the sites I referenced if you want to have a look-see.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=wide+reciver+rankings+in+2016+nfl+draft

He had 20 TDs in 12 games the season he came out. What more production do you want? He had 11 TDs the year before. The only game he missed his last NCAA season was a meaningless bowl game because he decided to get a sports hernia issue he'd been dealing with taken care of so he'd have time to get back to full strength for the pros.

Questioning the pick is fine. Those reasons are misguided.

Route running, attitude (it was a horrible situation, though and had been considered a positive before he got here), and fit with Kessler were the biggest issues.

Coleman ran a 4.37 at his pro day while still recovering from hernia surgery and had over a 40 inch vertical. Speed and explosion weren't ever concerns.

Drops and routes as issues, sure. His ability to gear down on things like comebacks, perhaps.

Concerns about straight up speed and explosion seem more revisionist history in an attempt to make the people that drafted him look bad.

Pro day link

Combine Profile Link

If a WR has drops issues you don't take him no matter how good he looks. We made that mistake before with Quincy Morgan and a couple of other guys I can't think of right now. We should have learned from our mistakes.

j/c:

I'm real tired of one particular poster calling me a liar. I have asked that we don't speak to one another because it always gets ugly. I'm tired of having to take the time to do further research just to prove that I am not lying. Here is the freaking quote w/a link:




I really wish the refs would step-in and put an end to this nonsense.

How can you be quicker than fast, yet be a vertical threat downfield?

You're not a liar Vers. From what I've seen you back up your statements with facts. Your one of the posters I enjoy reading and talking with even if we may not agree on everything.

I wasn't evaluating. I simply saw there was differences of opinion on what folks were saying about the 2016 draft class, so I typed in "ranking top wide receivers of the 2016 nfl draft" and reported what I saw from the various sites. I even provided a link to that page.

I was reporting. Not lying to make the FO look bad. And this is why I despise folks like Bull calling me a liar. I don't lie. Never have. And every other day he--and a few others--say I am lying. That leads me to having to take the time to prove I wasn't lying and then explaining why I posted what I did to guys like you.

Again, I wish the refs would step-in and stop these false claims!

Thanks Homes. I had to go through this same type of thing w/Bull the other day when he said I was lying about Schobert being ranked first in YAC. I had to go back and find the article and post it w/a link. It's a bunch of BS!

Some people you know are just going to land on their feet. Wolf was one of them.

[quote=PitDAWG]Some people you know are jus


No doubt. He has connections.

Build the network then let the network help you out when you need help.


Be it meeting contractors at the local bar or union hall who might need a good bricklayer or roofer, or a NFL FO executive who meets other GM's at the combine or winter meeting, you are always interviewing to some extent. At least the smart one's are. When you need a good job, a wide fishnet is a good thing.

You never know when you might be seeking a job from one of them.

You always like to hear, "heck yes, I always need a good person like you".

That's why some people seem to move around and stay level if not move up some, and other always seem to be starting over.

Good enough for the greatest dynasty of all time.

Not good enough for the Browns.

I would laugh if it didn't make me cry.

There's a difference between being a consultant and being within the FO.

Within our FO, it appears we wanted him to use specific processes. As a consultant, he can stick with his "process" and give NE his thoughts.

We want things to be repeatable so that we can constantly improve. His "process" might be less science and more art (he was allegedly the guy pounding the table for Takitaki in the 3rd round). Would've been nice to keep around, but he didn't want to do things Berry's way. C'est la vie.

Structure can be a good thing. We will see if this one is.

Other than name recognition, can someone really say what Wolf's strengths were or what he actually did? I think he'd have been nice to keep as a different perspective in the scouting meetings, but working under Dorsey and working under an inexperienced guy 5 years younger than him are different animals. It's not like we were going to be grooming him to be Berry's replacement.

Evidently he wasn't good enough for the Packers either since he came here from there.

It's just standard operating procedure. When you ride the coattails of someone in to a new job, and they lose the job, you are out as well.

Just the way it works.

There's a HUGE amount of conjecture in your post.

Didn't I present it as my thoughts?

Any piece in particular that troubles you and your friends?

Or does it make sense, but not fit your narrative, so you come up with a backhanded way to attack me instead of the way I've tried to arrange the pieces of information that we do have?

I'd argue there's no more conjecture in my post than the majority of posts on DawgTalkers.

At least I tried to stick to the topic instead of pointless jabs that don't really add anything.

Which parts do you disagree with or see as improbable?

It doesn't make any more sense than other pure conjecture. Pointing out it was pure conjecture isn't a jab, it's a fact. But people love to twist facts into something they aren't. Like you just did. That's a jab.

Actually, you make a good point. Under John he could be viewed as being groomed to move up. Under Berry, not so much.


As I said early this morning, when the top guy goes, the underlings he brought in usually do as well.

It happens all the time. People need to quit acting like this is a strange happening.

Browns announce new additions, promotions on player personnel staff

https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/bro...personnel-staff

Browns EVP of Football Operations and General Manager Andrew Berry on Friday announced numerous additions, promotions and title changes on the player personnel staff.

The following are new, full-time additions to the staff.

Kwesi Adofo-Mensah — VP Football Operations

Ryan Grigson — Senior Football Advisor

Charles Walls — National Scout

Josh Cox — Northwest Area Scout

Nate Sterken – Lead Data Scientist


Andrew Jackson – Data Architect / Systems Developer

Kevin Lewis – Software Developer

The following 20 have taken on new roles after their respective promotions and title changes.

Glenn Cook — VP of Player Personnel

Ken Kovash — VP of Player Personnel Process & Development

Andrew Healy — VP of Research & Strategy

Dan Saganey — Director of Player Personnel

Dave Giuliani – Director Research & Strategy


Mike Cetta — Director of Scouting Research

Adam Al-Khayyal — Assistant Director of Pro Personnel

Tyler Hamblin — Football Operations Coordinator

Zach Wigmore — Scouting Research Coordinator

Megan Rock — Player Personnel Coordinator

Shaun Herock — National Scout

Colton Chapple — Southeast Area Scout

Dan Zegers — Midwest Area Scout


Jimmy Noel — Northeast Area Scout

Branden Francis — Pro Scout

Rod Streater – Scouting Assistant

Joe Dever – Scouting Assistant

Debra Kruszynski – Executive Assistant Player Personnel/Coaching

Bradley DeAngelis – Director Football Information Systems

Zach Zelinsky – Senior Software Developer

"I am excited about the group," Berry said. "It was a very long process because we were diligent about a number of not only the senior-level positions but even entry-level positions. We did a lot of reference work. We did a pretty rigorous interview process and then obviously the work samples is really important for everybody that we would bring on board.


"I am excited because I think we have brought a lot of smart, talented people and put them in key roles. But also, everyone is not a carbon copy of one another – they bring different perspectives, different experiences, different viewpoints and that is what is going to push us to better decision making. We really are going to consider all the different perspectives and value them. That was a specific aiming point because I think that just helps us to be a better higher quality football operation. I think that is something that we took big strides in accomplishing this month."

Adofo-Mensah comes to Cleveland after spending the past seven years with the San Francisco 49ers. He was elevated to his most recent role, Director of Football Research and Development, in May 2018, after serving as a Manager of Football Research and Development. With the Browns, Adofo-Mensah will work closely with Berry and the rest of the senior football staff to contribute to all roster and strategy decisions. He will also assist Berry with the day-to-day operations of the department.

"I think he brings a nice blend of both an insider and an outsider perspective to football," Berry said. "I think probably the best part of him is just the person. He is humble, high integrity, a continuous learner, true growth mindset and he has fantastic interpersonal and people skills — in terms of someone who can be both a strategic thought partner with all the big decisions that we make, someone who has the capacity to be an outstanding manager as he helps run the day-to-day of the team, and then just someone who is going to get along with the really strong group that we have already. I think he is really a perfect fit to add to the mix."

Before entering the NFL, Adofo-Mensah was an Associate Portfolio Manager at Taylor Woods Capital and a VP/Executive Director at Credit Suisse as a commodities trader. Adofo-Mensah played basketball at Princeton, where he graduated with a bachelor's degree in economics. He received his master's in economics from Stanford.

"I came into San Francisco and was a clean slate and I got my football foundation put in by so many; Ed Donatell, Vic Fangio, Tom Gamble, Ethan Waugh, Ran Carthon, Tom Rathman and Bobby Turner, Kyle Shanahan, Mike Shanahan, Eric Mangini, Jason Tarver, Martin Mayhew and John Lynch. My football foundation has been put in by some of the greats and all I've done is try to learn and see the intuition put into it. I'm not the guy who's going to tell a traditional scout a trait is wrong or something like that. I know enough to ask good questions and see how we can get better information and make a good decision.

"Having been at the 49ers for a long time and especially these last few years, you see the benefits of working in an aligned culture. What Cleveland has been building for the last few years to this point of a completely aligned culture, I was really excited to come join that. Winning in a place like this would be something incredible where people care. They care about football on Sundays entirely on a level that's just inspiring. To come to a place and potentially be able to win, it was an opportunity I couldn't pass up."

Grigson spent the past four months with the Browns in an advisory role. He returns to Cleveland — where he served as a Senior Personnel Executive in 2017 — after working with the Seattle Seahawks as a Senior Personnel Consultant for the past two seasons. Grigson was the Colts' General Manager from 2012-16, a stretch that saw the team advance to the playoffs and win 11 games in three consecutive seasons.

"I'm just really, really grateful," Grigson said. "From the Haslam family on down. Everyone has been so open and collaborative and everybody has their own niche but they kind of just come together. It was neat to see them come together in the process leading up to the draft.


"I've told them I'm an open book and they're welcome to bounce things off me — and I know they're very open to that — just through things I've learned, the wisdom gained and trial and error, victories, mistakes, successes. I feel like I have an experienced background and I've been fortunate the vast majority of it has been with winning programs. I figure I can help in that aspect because I kind of know what it looks like. Whatever Andrew sees fit that I need to do to help us where we want to go, that's what I'll do."

Berry and Grigson, of course, have a relationship that dates back to Grigson's tenure with the Colts. Berry was elevated from pro scout to pro scouting coordinator in Grigson's first season at the helm.

"We obviously have a long-time relationship. He was one of the first people to make a significant bet on me early in my career. That is not the reason that he is here," Berry said, "He is here because I think he is very good. He has a very established track record as a personnel evaluator from his time in St. Louis at the time, Philly and then obviously, Indianapolis. General Manager experience, rebuilt the Colts into a winner very quickly, Executive of the Year. And that is something that is valuable to me."

Cook has been with the Browns since 2016, when he was hired as the Assistant Director of Scouting — a position that provided responsibilities in pro scouting, college scouting and scouting research. In his new role, Cook will contribute to all football and strategy decisions along with the senior staff while also leading the day-to-day operations of the player personnel department.

"One thing I've been fortunate is to be around a lot of good people, a lot of good football intelligence and knowledge," Cook said. "I've been fortunate to have a diverse set of experiences. Throughout my time in the league, I've worked in pro scouting, college scouting. When I came to Cleveland, I had an opportunity to take on a leadership role, experience the administrative piece, grow in cap management, grow across football operations. It's really been a nice trajectory in terms of my growth and experience since I've been in the league."

Cook came to Cleveland after a four-year tenure as a scout with the Green Bay Packers. Cook was a linebacker at the University of Miami from 2004-08 and was a graduate assistant for the Hurricanes before taking his first NFL job with the Colts in 2011.

"He is a guy who has done pro, he has done college, has a really good understanding of research, his learning contracts. I just think he has a broad skill set," Berry said. "He is a talented evaluator and he has got really great people skills. I think he will work well, not only managing our scouts but also our scouting research function, which is really a hybrid area between traditional evaluation and research and strategy and I think that is really important for the person that is going to run day-to-day personnel within the organization."

Kovash has been with the Browns since 2013, when he joined the team as the Director of Football Research, and most recently served as Vice President of Player Personnel. In his new role, Kovash will assist Berry and the senior football staff on all roster and strategic football decisions while also focusing on roster strategy, player personnel process, football innovation and professional development across all of football operations.


Healy has been in Cleveland since 2016, when he joined the team as a Senior Player Personnel Strategist. On top of his role as a contributing member of the senior football staff, Healy, who joined the Browns after serving as a professor of economics at Loyola Marymount University, will lead the integration process of data and advanced insights into all realms of football operations.

"I feel fortunate that I had a couple of years of first-hand knowledge on the track record with a number of our employees in football operations," Berry said. "I think it can be challenging when you have transitions, turnovers, a lot has been the case here when someone new comes in, they really get a 90-day sample and they may not appreciate what is already on hand. We have a number of really talented people across football operations already. I very much believe in promoting from within. That does not mean that we are not going to have external hires, in fact we have this cycle and I think that is healthy. But I know that we have really good people on hand and am excited to give them an opportunity.

"Quite frankly, I thought they did a really nice job this spring and am looking forward to seeing what they can do moving forward."

Unless I am missing something it doesn’t seem like we fired anyone besides the main three guys at the beginning. That is not much staff turnover for a new GM hire.

Seeing Grigson’s name as a former GM, it got me thinking: where are our old GM’s currently employed?

Sashi, Farmer, Savage, Dorsey, Kokinis, etc?

Sashi is in the NBA.
I think Farmer is unemployed.
Savage is a broadcaster and runs the Senior Bowl.
Dorsey is in his basement studying film.
Kokinis, have no idea.

Boy that's a list if there ever was one.

lol not a very inspiring list

Seeing Grigson's name made me want to puke. He is one of least-liked men in the NFL.

Link?

Yeah, i remember he wasn't well liked as GM of the Colts.

But, Andrew Berry attributes a lot to him in his start in the scouting world of the NFL.

Gotta take care of his guy i guess

Savage left running the Senior Bowl after 2018.

Who could forget Savage's time as GM of the Arizona Hotshots!

Savage is now a senior advisor with the Jets.

George Kokinis is Director of Player Personnel for the Ravens.

Ray Farmer interviewed for Texans GM job in 2019. Did not get it and is currently perfecting slow brewed coffee.

Sashi - Wizards
Farmer - unemployed as far as I know
Savage - he was in the AAF and he had been apart of Alabama’s radio broadcast
Dorsey - unemployed
Kokinis - Ravens director of player personnel
Lombardi - writer for The Athletic
Banner - unemployed
Holmgren - unemployed
Heckert - died a couple years ago

I don't know that he was one of the least liked men of the NFL. He was in Indy if I recall. He's been hired by a few different franchises, so somebody likes him.

that’s a lot of old GMs, let alone old GMs who haven’t done much in the NFL since leaving.

Kokinis is the lone NFL survivor haha

I have no idea if he was liked or not, but I think most believed he did a poor job drafting outside of his first year with Indy- at least fans do.

I'm actually happy his job is "advisor" to a certain degree. To me that seems a very loose job description and doesn't really carry any legit power and responsibility. More like someone with an elevated consultant role who is officially on staff. On the flip side, it proves the good ole' boy club is alive and well, unfortunately, and helping out someone who is career personnel guy regardless of being mostly unsuccessful. I think this is Berry keeping the guy employed who first gave him a shot as a personnel guy with Indy. Maybe there is a trait or two that he has traditionally done well with, but no one knows if that is true or not.

GMs, coaches, players - since '99 not a lot of former Browns personnel go on to greatness once axed. Shows a lot about the former Browns hiring/drafting skills

i cant think of too many players, coaches, GM, FO, etc that have gone on to do much of anything after leaving here since 99

I guess Mitchell Schwartz would be the best example?

It isn't. Berry probably already knew most from his last stint.


The other he knew from other stops.

I know Sashi is with a NBA team in some executive fashion. Savage is the color guy for Crimson Tide football games. A local station broadcasts all the games. As the eagle flies, Alabama is maybe 20 miles from here. As the ridge lines fall, more like a 40 mile drive.

This is a tri-state area. Mostly Vol hats, but you see tons of Georgia and Alabama fans. I mean a high percentage.

It pretty cool to be honest. You go in to a sports bar here and you see all kinds of games on the 50 TV's. Go in to a sports bar in Ohio, they are all Ohio State.

Ok, I get loyalty, but still, with multitudes of TV's available, there is some good football being played outside of Ohio State. You don't need 40 of 40 TV's showing OSU beating Toledo by 35 in the early 3rd Qtr.

LSU and Bama are playing at 3:30. How about putting that on one or two of them?

Cool story.

When down in Fla, folks complained they couldn't get any kind of sports coverage, everything was local and almost no national coverage.

When in Ohio, sports bars always seem to have a varied sort of games on the TV.

Man, that is a lot of VP's, Directors, etc. Is the ship to the Isle getting top heavy? Perhaps lost in the list were the additions to the data/statistics/analysis positions...

I guess we go in to different bars. My experience has been totally different. I have Browns season tickets. I go up for no less than 6 games a year. I get there on Saturdays around noon and hang at some pub to watch games.

I get it if it is a small place with 3 TV's, but if it is a real sports bar with multiple TV's, all don't need to be showing the same game.

h

When I was single I went to BW3 to watch the games... went to the same one every weekend.. but I typically still needed to ask the. To turn the Browns on....they always did... but since hardly anyone watches the Browns in Houston I'd always have to ask

Heckert was with a team until he passed away.

Broncos.

Not that I care but the red butt head (Kokinos meand red in Greek) went back with the Ravens - for some reason I remember reading that. but could be WRONG.

j/c:

GM Andrew Berry’s big moves, Jadevon Clowney situation: Let’s talk Cleveland Browns

CLEVELAND, Ohio – Talking to myself about the latest changes in the Browns’ front office:

QUESTION: The Browns seemed to promote and hire a bunch of guys to work for Andrew Berry. Does it matter?

ANSWER: It’s a fair question, given how fans have seen so many front office people come and go. Now the GM, Berry is on his second tour of duty in Cleveland. He was an assistant for former Browns Vice President (basically GM) Sashi Brown in 2016-17.

Q: So what? Brown is gone.

A: Let’s stop for a moment and direct this back to football. Did you like what the Browns did in free agency and the draft?

Q: I’m supposed to ask the questions, but the answer is most fans liked it. ESPN rated the Browns as having the NFL’s second-best offseason.

A: So the answer is yes. The man engineering the drafting of Jedrick Wills Jr., Grant Delpit, Harrison Bryant and the rest was Berry. The signing of free agents Jack Conklin and Austin Hooper were driven by Berry. Understand Berry is very collaborative. Coaches, analytics, old-time scouts all had significant input. Berry hates the idea of this being a one-man show, because it’s not.

Q: The new front office seems to be off to a strong start. What does that have to do with changes?

A: In 2016, Paul DePodesta was hired by Brown to be the chief strategy officer. He still has that job, only with more influence. The hiring of Kevin Stefanski and the return of Berry in January were moves favored by DePodesta. Entering his fifth NFL season, DePodesta is no longer “the Moneyball Baseball Guy.” He now knows a lot about the league.

Q: But the analytics...

A: For analytics to work, it requires patience. One problem with the DePodesta/Brown/Berry front office in 2016-17 was they were all new to their jobs. They made rookie mistakes. And they had a coach in Hue Jackson who didn’t buy into the analytics-based building of a franchise.

Q: The dreaded “alignment” issue.

A: Exactly. It appeared the Browns were doing things backwards when they hired Stefanski first as coach, then went shopping for a GM. Ownership was tired of feuds between the GM/head coach, or a GM (John Dorsey) hiring an overwhelmed rookie head coach (Freddie Kitchens).

Q: Wasn’t it backwards?

A: During the 2019 coaching search, Berry was in Dorsey’s front office. He got to know Stefanski. Both men realized they had a lot in common and believed they could work together. This was in January of 2019. Berry went to the Eagles a month later as an assistant to GM Howie Roseman.

Q: Your point?

A: Berry learned a lot in Philadelphia. You must have a strong scouting department. Berry started his career as a scout with the Colts. He has promoted Glenn Cook to VP of Player Personnel. Cook was a pro scout before and is now in charge of pro and college scouts. They hired former Green Bay scout Charles Walls to serve as what is called a “national cross checker” in baseball. Cook is a former Miami Hurricane linebacker. Walls played at Old Dominion.

Q: I’m listening...

A: Think about the Indians. Chris Antonetti is the team president. Mike Chernoff is the GM. Neither were pro players. Neither were scouts with radar guns stalking dusty diamonds to find players. They grew up in “baseball operations" and minor-league systems in the front office. They are big-picture guys.

Q: The Browns are modeling themselves on the Indians?

A: Not exactly, although the Browns admire how the Tribe competes in a league without a salary cap. DePodesta began his career with the Indians. But Berry saw a lot of this comprehensive approach to the front office with the Eagles. This gets very complicated because the days of a GM, head coach and some scouts getting together to run things is over.

Q: What about Kwesi Adofo-Mensah?

A: He is Berry’s top assistant. He came from the 49ers, where his background was in analytics. He was director of research and development. The Browns are extremely high on Adofo-Mensah. Berry met him a few years ago at the NFL combine. They became friends. Adofo-Mensah has family in the Philadelphia area. When he visited them, he’d also have lunch for Berry (who was working for the Eagles).

Q: But he’s not a football guy! Neither is Berry!

A: Berry played at Harvard and scouted for four years. He has a football background. The Browns believe Adofo-Mensah is the kind of big picture guy who can eventually be a GM. Think about baseball or even the NBA, where GMs often don’t come from the locker room or coaching. It’s a different world. The GM gathers information from scouts to stats to medical to psychological testing. It’s like being a CEO rather than a specialist in one or two areas.

Q: They have a lot of young guys, right?

A: Berry is the NFL’s youngest GM at 33. Then there’s Adofo-Mensah (38), Stefanski (38) and Cook (35). I see pro sports evolving almost like medical school. They are getting smart people and training them. Technology plays a monster role.

Q: So you buy into all this?

A: I’m fascinated by it because I’ve seen it work in the NBA and MLB. The Browns do have veteran NFL GM Ryan Grigson as “senior football advisor" to Berry. He is old school. Berry worked for him in Indianapolis. I like what they did in the offseason. I like how Stefanski and Berry appear to have the same idea of how to do business in Cleveland.

ABOUT THE BROWNS

1. One NFL source told me “don’t believe everything you read” when it comes to the Browns and Jadeveon Clowney. ESPN reported the Browns have made Clowney the best financial offer, but the free agent defensive end doesn’t seem interested.

2. I couldn’t get any more information. Not sure if the source was casting doubt on the Browns having the highest offer, or Clowney supposedly not wanting Cleveland. I do sense this is a wait-and-see deal. Teams can’t have regular mini-camps because of COVID-19.

3. I believe the Browns are interested in Clowney. I believe Clowney’s agent (Bus Cook) hasn’t shut the door on the Browns. Cook also represents Myles Garrett, with whom the Browns are talking a contract extension. In other words, I don’t see anything happening soon.

4. Baker Mayfield said all the right things about the new offense and coaching staff. Usually, the Browns would be on the field for minicamps. The media would see some of the workouts. There would be a sense of how Mayfield is learning the new offense.

5. Video work and virtual teaching is important, but many people “learn by doing.” That’s how QBs and receivers develop a chemistry on passing plays. There are lots of other examples. The Browns have asked Mayfield to take shotgun snaps with his left foot forward, rather his right. He can practice that to an extent in his back yard, but being on the field means so much.

6. Defensive coordinator Joe Woods sounded impressed with Olivier Vernon’s attitude. Woods said he believed Vernon was past his knee problems of a year ago that cost him six games. But the Browns won’t know until they have a real training camp at some point.

https://www.cleveland.com/browns/2020/05...and-browns.html

Brian Brennan wasn't fast,but he was quick. Bernie hit him on 30-40 yards passes all the time.

That was a poorly written article. Some of the questions were actually statements. And how many times are we going to dip into the Q and A well?

So was Dave Logan. Much like Brian.

Brennan was good but not elite as someone on this board said. Imagine what it would be if he played in this kind of offense.

Pluto was trying to be funny/cute. His opening statement was that he was "talking to himself". Not really Q & A...but him Q & A ing himself.

He probably thought it was great...me? Eh...it's the dead zone...still.

Isn't this kind of a reoccurring column idea he has done for a long time?

Could be...I just read another one where he is lamenting/leery-of the ESPN guy who stated we had the 2nd best off-season in the league.

Yes, it is.

who were our WRs during those 80s runs? Slaughter, Brennan, Langhorne, Ozzie ... ?

Ozzie was a TE. I remember Slaughter and Langhorne being the starters. Backups were Brennan, Clarence Weathers, and Gerald "The Ice Cube" McNeil. I think Travis Tucker was a backup TE.

Don't forget TE Harry Holt

All of those receivers mentioned from the 80's, including Dave Logan, could catch the ball. I don't remember many drops from those guys!!

that’s what I’ve noticed just watching old games as well

Note Bernie didn't have much velocity on those balls as many were touch passes so its what we call a very catchable ball.

j/c:

Sign Myles through 2025 and end it! Good to front load and get ahead of it IMO

It sure makes more sense to work on getting Myles contract done than pursuing Clowney..front office needs to keep priorities in line...jmo..mac

IOW...gett're done!

With 2 years left on the the rookie contract, I would hope it goes beyond 2025. How about 2027?

A extension doesn't eliminate the years on the current contract. It adds years to it and pays more up front.

Lock him up, make it team friendly after 2024 or 2025.

yeah, Ideally we can lock him up through 2027 ... but I’m not sure his agent would let him sign for that long ... I bet they’d want to cash in another time before he reaches that much further into his career, especially considering the cap will continue to grow

j/c:

Memphis, I can’t help but wonder if clowney’s reluctance to sign with us has to do with the fact he has played second fiddle to j.j. Watt since he has been in the league and he does not want to come to a situation where he would play second fiddle to Myles garrett.

It could be, I suppose.

It could also be because he truly thinks he is worth the price tag he and his agent sent out at the beginning go FA. And even coming down a few million, teams are still offering much less than that? I don't know. I think the longer he doesn't sign, it lessens his market value and it is advantageous for the Browns but it could also mean another team is added to the mix if they think they can get him on the cheap(er). Also, length of the contract could be an factor too- does one side want a one-year deal while the other is seeking something more long-term? I guess with limited teams allegedly interested (Seattle, Tennessee, and us) and with Seattle seemingly out of the picture, bodes well for Cleveland too.

What I am pretty confident in saying is that there is too much smoke around Cleveland wanting to sign Clowney for it not to be true. The question is whether something mutually can be agreed upon or does Clowney find a better fit for his desire around money/contract length.

He had THREE sacks last season. He would be playing 5th or 6th fiddle. Hell even Chad Thomas had 4 sacks last season.

He also had 13 QB hits, 7 tackles for loss.

His numbers are somewhat similar to Vernon's in 2019:

Sacks- 3.5
QB hits- 11
TFL- 4

Like many people have said, it is not just about sacks, although obviously that is a big part of the equation.

In 2018, Clowney had 9 sacks and 21 QB hits. In 2017, 9.5 sacks and 17 QB hits. Not sure about the 2019 season and the decrease in numbers for both stats, perhaps more attention put on him in SEA as JJ Watt took most of the attention in HOU? Don't know. Missing three games also didn't help.

Injuries favor Clowney as he has missed 4 games in the past three years; Vernon 15 in the past three (and it's been increasing each year- not a good trend). Clowney also happens to be two years younger. Obviously I compare the two because, if signed to a large deal, I would assume the intent would be to replace Vernon as the starter. And I don't think you would keep Vernon at $15M as a backup in a rotation. Maybe a restructured deal?

If we sign Clowney, I'd be very curious to see what the annual amount would be. I think the Browns would prefer to sign him at a slightly lower amount than what they are currently playing Vernon. But that is just my hunch.

Clowney also played 3 more games that Vernon, and he wants more money and a longer term contract. IMO he is not worth more than 10/12 million per year for a 3 or 4 year contract. There is no way Clowney is worth anywhere near the 20+ million a year that Myles will probably get.

Well, if MKC says it. . . .

I think everyone would probably agree with you, including Clowney's agent.

Maybe. I think he still has 2 years on his deal and option year. Maybe I am adding wrong, maybe it is 2026. Maybe you lose the option year is you extend early.

Any way, we have him for at least this season and next. If we extend him 4 years, we have him at least 6 more years, maybe 7.

There are advantages for players signing early. They get money up front. No big concerns about injury.


There are advantages for teams signing guys early. Pay the bulk while you have the money, if he is hurt, you don't have dead money screwing things up.


I can't tell you how many times I have bought tickets in advance to some play in NYC or some concert months in advance and then couldn't go for one reason or anther.


I don't like it, but that money is gone. It has been paid for months ago.

I would have rathered to have gone, but if not, not all that big a deal.

Screw Clowney. He already said NO to us.

Roll with Vernon.

Andrew Berry: 'It has been a long time coming'
https://www.clevelandbrowns.com/news/andrew-berry-it-has-been-a-long-time-coming



Opening statement:

"Hi, everyone. It is good to see you. I hope you guys are all staying safe.

"Before we jump into everything, I actually want to take a little bit of time just to acknowledge (Cleveland TV/media legend) Dick Goddard's passing today. Dick was a statistician for 43 years with our radio team. I never had the pleasure of meeting him, but I wanted to extend condolences to his family on behalf of the Browns organization.

"Training camp, we are excited to get our players and our staff back into the building in what has been a very eventful spring and summer. We are very thankful for all the work that Joe Sheehan, our Senior VP of Player Health and [Development], (Chief Human Resources Officer) Mike Nikolaus, who heads HR and our facilities team – (Director of Berea Facilities) Matt Srodek and (Coordinator of Berea Facilities) Chris Cola. All of the things that they have done over the past few months to make our facility as safe as possible for the return of our players during this time, they have done a phenomenal job of really increasing the player footprint within the facilities to create an environment that is pretty significant to keeping them, their families, our coaches and our support staff healthy. We all understand that there is a shared responsibility in this thing over the next several months as we enter training camp and through the season, and we are excited to attack that challenge. Also, I want to just kind of acknowledge everything (Head Coach) Kevin (Stefanski) has done to lead our coaches and staff. The coaching staff has been phenomenal through the virtual offseason programming, into the summer and then obviously into these early days of training camp. We are just excited to have our guys back on campus, so to speak. It has been a long time coming, and we are looking forward to getting to work."

On if the Browns expect any more players to opt out of the season, following DT Andrew Billings' announcement today:

"The players have until Thursday afternoon really to make that decision. For all those guys, it is deeply personal and an individual choice. We will know at that time if there are more guys, but suffice it to say, organizationally, we support all those guys. We understand that it is a difficult decision, and again, it is very, very personal. We support the three guys who have opted out so far, and I look forward to them being back with the team next year."

On how players opting out and the salary cap relief impact the team's ability to sign other players:


"Part of it is when the player opts out, their contract tolls. Even though there may be some relief this year, that does apply into the following season. It is more a little bit of like a shift in the accounting, so to speak. Really, the two years we have been in conjunction with one another, but again, it does allow us a little bit of flexibility this year."

On the process of players being designated as Reserve/COVID-19 and the team's reaction to the number of players who have received that designation to date:

"We are very pleased with how the process has gone so far. I think it is a credit to the league, it is a credit to the [NFL]PA, it is a credit to our medical staff, and the BioReference lab that is conducting all the testing for us. I think it all has gone very, very smoothly. Obviously, this is something for all 32 teams where we learn more every day and really every week, but I think we have done a really nice job here of creating an environment that can be as safe as possible for our players and staff."

On if he believes the COVID-19 processes and protocols in place experienced thus far offer hope that training camp and the season can proceed:

"I do. I think that between the league, the [NFL]PA and then really what we have done here, we are doing everything we can to give ourselves the best chance possible to have a very successful season, and most importantly, keep players, coaches, support staff and their families safe."

On players expressing concern this offseason about playing during the pandemic and what potentially made players feel more comfortable now about playing compared to a month ago:


"I think the feedback has been largely positive. I think it is tough until you get in some of these NFL buildings and until you see how stringent and how strict and detailed the protocols are, not just within the facilities but for things that will come down the line, whether it is travel, hotels or busing, you name it. That is kind of hard to visualize in call it April, May or early June. Again, it really is a credit to the league, the [NFL]PA and the individual clubs in terms of how much work – the doctors, forgive me for forgetting to mention those guys off the top – and everything that has been put into this to give ourselves the best chance to have a successful season. There has been a ton of thought, a ton of detail, a ton of work put into it so we are all very grateful for a number of individuals who have done that."

On making roster moves when taking into consideration player opt outs, Reserve/COVID-19 designations, limitations for tryouts and in-person visits during the offseason and other measures in place:

"I don't think those mechanics have changed too much in terms of our process for evaluating players who are available externally. I think the logistics are a little bit different than we have seen them in prior years, whether it is travel or the different phases of the testing protocols if we were to bring in players who are not currently on the roster. Obviously, there are a lot more restrictions regarding tryouts if we were to bring players in for a tryout. On the whole, it is not such that it fundamentally changes the operation. It may slow down a few aspects of it, but we are still able to do our jobs within the personnel department to look to upgrade the roster."

On QB Garrett Gilbert being placed on Reserve/COVID-19 list and if there are concerns that he had been in close contact with other players in the building:

"I will again give credit to Kevin and our medical staff in terms of how thoughtful they have been and in terms of the planning, specifically during this critical first 14 days as we form our bubble, so to speak. Really, all of our meetings have been virtual up until this point. With the facility redesign, when our guys really do come back into the building for meetings and various activities, everything is really, really well spaced out and everything is really, really well done to make sure that guys are social distanced and safe and we would prevent really any issues inside the facilities."

On the New Orleans Saints' creating a 'bubble-like training camp' with staff at a designated hotel and if the Browns would consider a similar approach:

"I did not see the report or what they are doing so I can't comment on that, unfortunately."

On the process for scouting college football this season, given uncertainties at the college level:


"Right now, there is a fair amount of work in the summer that we typically do that can already be executed by our scouts largely through film work. We are still a few weeks away in terms of really having to execute anything travel related. We have talked through and planned through a number of contingencies, but the reality of it is that all of us want certainty and we are creatures of habit, and that is not something that we have at this point in time. There are still a fair amount of unknowns with different colleges within college football – some are moving to the spring and then schools are still working through restrictions as it pertains to NFL scouts. It is just something that for us, our theme has been flexibility and adaptation, and we have to be able to pivot as we get more information. We do have a number of contingencies in place. We are really focused on the things that we can control at this point in time. As we get more information, we will make more definitive decisions in that regard."

On WR Odell Beckham Jr.'s comments during the offseason about his concerns for the season and life as it relates to football during the pandemic:

"Having a player of Odell's stature on the roster, obviously, he generates a lot of attention. Odell is very mindful that he has to be conscientious with his words. That being said, we have had plenty of dialogue and conversation with Odell, not only just through the summer but certainly as he has returned to Cleveland, and that has been a positive thing. We feel really good about everything that the league and the [NFL]PA have agreed upon and everything that we have done in Cleveland. I would say in terms of Odell, he has returned and really been focused on working hard. He has been very engaged in everything that we have done in the classroom. He is really focused on having a great year."

On the impact of Billings opting out and the rotation on the DL:

"(Akron Beacon Journal beat writer) Nate (Ulrich), before I even answer your question, I actually just wanted to say I saw your Instagram post, and I wanted to say thank you for being part of our #BeTheSolution campaign. I thought your reflection was outstanding. I wanted to thank you for that first.

"In terms of Andrew, we believe in having depth along the defensive line. We think that we have a number of guys who are really talented players. We have added a number over the course of the spring. It really is going to be a next man up mentality. It is no different than if you are dealing with an injury in season. We have some younger players that will push for more playing time so we are excited about that. We are excited about the guys that we have internally. Hate to lose Andrew, but certainly understand and are 100 percent supportive of his decision."

On the response to the team's #BeTheSolution campaign and if the team has discussed next steps on engaging in social justice efforts now that players and coaches are back in the building:

"The response has really been fantastic within the Cleveland community and then certainly organizationally. The topic of social justice has been something that has been a pretty consistent theme really since the spring. That is a credit to the organization, that is a credit to Kevin and that is a credit to our guys. It is something that we have talked about multiple times since training camp has begun. We feel really good about where we are as an organization and some of things that we are talking about to continue to do with our players, with our staff and with our coaches. It is something that has really been at the forefront of our minds, even as we have entered camp."


On examples of the team's additional safety precautions once practices begin, in addition to recent virtual meetings, referencing MLB players not being able to shower at their ballparks:

"I think there may be a couple of things. No. 1, specifically the issue of physical distancing over the course of the day as guys get into the more physical portions of camp, again, it is really hats off to our facilities team in terms of the extra space they have created for some of those daily activities, whether it is the locker room, shower facilities or meal facilities, you name it. I think the second piece is honestly just scheduling. The scheduling for this training camp and what Kevin has done in that regard has really been remarkable because it is not the same. It can't be the same as your typical NFL training camp in terms of how you manage people not only in and out of the building but in certain areas of the building. To your point, lunch looks different. Usually, you get off of the practice field or you get out of meetings, you go to lunch and all of the guys go to the cafeteria. That is not something that is feasible in the current environment. Even something like that has to be scheduled to a T. I will tell you, our head coach, he is super detailed, super organized and leaves no stone unturned in that regard. I am sure there are going to be things that we are going to continue to learn as we go through this thing, but I think we have a really good plan in place once the guys hit the practice field."

On if he has been impressed with the organization's creativity, flexibility and adaptability:

"For sure. 'Necessity breeds ingenuity and creativity.' I can't quite remember the exact quote, but truer words have not been spoken. I think that is something that we have seen and have been very, very proud of organizationally over the past five or six months."

On his discussions with TE David Njoku, who stated he wants to stay in Cleveland after requesting a trade earlier this offseason:

"I will not go into necessarily the specifics of the conversation that I had with David, but what I can tell you with David, really even since the spring and definitely since he has been back, he has been very engaged with our coaching staff and our performance staff. He has shown up in terrific shape. I do think that there is an element with getting back around your teammates, your coaches and the excitement of training camp. We have been very consistent that we think David can be a big part of where we are trying to go as a team this year and that we think he has an important role to play for this roster and for this team. We are looking forward to working with David. I think he can have a fantastic year."

On if he was surprised Njoku requested a trade earlier this offseason:

"I will be honest, yes, a little bit. I guess you learn not to be surprised about anything. He communicated well through it. He worked through it professionally. We had good communication with his representation. We think we are in a pretty good place right now."


On the Browns' policies and communication with players and staff about behavior outside of the building:

"What we have talked a lot about and what Kevin has really emphasized really on a daily basis is the concept of shared responsibility. This year, more than any other, we are not only responsible for our actions and behaviors in the building but as you mentioned when we are away from the facilities. The consequences of our actions and behaviors, it is not just our players, right? It is our support staff, coaching staff, front office and everybody who is in this bubble throughout the year. What we do can impact not just people in the building but players', coaches' and staff's families, as well. Taking that seriously and understanding that it is something we are going to have to be focused on every day, I think Kevin has done a really nice job of consistently reiterating that message on a daily basis."

On evaluating rosters this year with a different training camp structure and no preseason games:

"It will be a little bit different on the pro side. I think we will have plenty of opportunity to evaluate our own roster. We will have plenty of practices. I know we are starting a little bit later than normal, but we will have plenty of practices to see all of our veterans, see all of our bubble guys and see all of our young guys. If you think about it in a normal year, it is nice to have those preseason games, but really, the majority of the evaluation process does come throughout those daily practices. Probably where the biggest challenge comes is as you evaluate other rosters externally. Now, we still do have plenty of information from whether it is veterans across the league and their pro career or younger players in terms of their college career. It is always nice to have those call it 80-100 snaps during the preseason, but I feel confident that we will be able to navigate that really well once we get closer to the cut-down date."

On if the Browns may be likely to keep more veterans than rookies compared to a typical year, due to changes to the offseason, training camp and preseason this year:

"I think it is too early to say. It will really come down to how the guys perform over the next couple weeks. I think there are plenty of rookies that can hit the ground running, and they have a great opportunity in front of them to prove that they can catch up quickly. I don't know that I would suggest that our roster is going to be more veteran heavy this year because of the circumstances."

On his impressions of QB Baker Mayfield with players returning to the building:

"Baker has really been outstanding this entire spring and summer – level of engagement with the coaching staff, getting up to speed mentally with the system and his interaction with his teammates. He came back and added four pounds of lean mass, cut body fat and came back in terrific shape. I know he is really excited about the upcoming season, and he has done a really nice job of what I would call almost creating community and really bringing guys together, as difficult as that can be as everybody has really been trying to function virtually. We are all really excited about him entering the year."


On the Browns committing to DE Myles Garrett long term now with his recent contract extension, given there may be some uncertainty to how Garrett will respond after returning from suspension:

"For Myles, I feel fortunate to come in where I had two years' worth of scouting Myles at Texas A&M, was part of drafting him and a number of years with him in the building. Obviously, I left for Philly for a year and came back. I really feel very comfortable with Myles both the player and the person, understanding that he made a mistake last year. In terms of what he does on the field, in terms of what he does while he is in our building and in terms of what he does in the community, just feel great about the player and the person. For us to have an opportunity to have him under contract for the next seven years, we thought that was really a great opportunity for our organization, and obviously, it gives him long-term security, as well. For me, I felt like we really had enough information to know how he was going to respond."

On the significance of reaching a new contract with DE Olivier Vernon and pairing him with Garrett:

"We feel good about really both of our bookends. We think that Myles and OV can be a really strong duo for us this upcoming season. Obviously, we want to make sure that OV stays healthy and stays on the field. We think that we can be tough to block up front when those two guys are really going."

On meeting Vice President of Football Operations Kwesi Adofo-Mensah at the combine, their relationship and bringing Adofo-Mensah to the Browns staff:

"I had heard about him. We had both worked with an individual at separate stops and so we kind of knew of one another. We were both actually headed up to the suites for one of the [combine] workouts in the downstairs elevator bank heading up to the suites, and he just introduced himself. From there, we just kind of struck up a conversation. Really from that point, we kept in touch. We would talk ball. We would talk personal life. We would talk organizational philosophy. When I left to go to Philly, with his family out in that area, whenever he would travel back, we would spend time together. It was really just kind of building that relationship over time and understanding that you had shared values, whether it was from a personal standpoint or a football standpoint. Having the opportunity to bring him here, it really kind of felt like a no-brainer."

Andrew Berry is an impressive person.