Recently, a few posters have stated that the Browns are a mess. Some have said that Dorsey did not bring talent in. I have not responded to direct questions from those guys because threads get ruined by the constant bickering. I used to argue w/them, but have learned it's better for the board to not converse w/them

Here are my thoughts on the rosters. I will gladly debate w/folks who are interested in honest debate. I will NOT respond to certain posters and I think we all know who they are.

Rosters:

QB:
2017: Kizer
2019: Baker

I am not a huge Baker fan, but I think he has a chance. Kizer has no chance [in my opinion] of ever being a quality starter.

Side note: Dorsey traded Kizer for Randall. The FS spot was a mess under the previous regime. Randall has fizzled out in Cleveland, but this was a positive trade.

RB:

2017: Crow and Duke
2019: Chubb and Hunt.

This is not even a contest. Huge upgrades.

WR:

2017: Coleman, Brittl, and Louis.
2019: OBJ and Landry

Biggest mismatch in the history of the civilized world.

LT:

2017: Joe Thomas
2019: GRob

Mismatch. But, Joe retired after the 2017 season and that left Dorsey in a huge bind because the previous FO did not draft a replacement.

LG:

Both were the same

C:

Same

RG:

2017: Zeitler
2019: Hubbard

Landslide victory w/Zeitler.

TE:

Njoku for both.

RDE:

Same w/Myles

DT:

2017: Coley
2019: Richardson

Lopsided victory for Richardson

DT:

Same w/Ogunjobi. Shelton was the starter, but the old FO drafted Ogunjobi, so I can't credit Dorsey for that.

LDE:

2017: Ogbah
2019: Vernon

Both got hurt, but Vernon is a far superior player.

LBers:

Joe and Kirko both listed as starters.

SS:

2017:Kindred
2019: Burnett/Murray.

Kindred was perhaps the worst coverage S I have ever seen. Dumb. Terrible recognition. Advantage 2019.

FS:

2017: Peppers
2019: Randall

Peppers was dreadful at FS. He took terrible angles, could not cover, and had trouble tackling in the open field.

Corners:

2017: McCourtey and Jamar Taylor
2019: Ward and Greedy

No contest. Ward and Greedy are young and athletic. Ward has made the Pro Bowl two straight years. Our corners in 2017 were part of the reason we played our FS 20 yards downfield. That is how bad they were. The other reason was that Peppers had no business playing FS. He played LBer in college. SS is his true spot.

The roster comparisons after both regimes had 2 years each are not even close. Dorsey took the worst roster in the league and turned into one of--if not the--best.

There are all kinds of articles and videos that support my position. I will gladly post one after another. But again, I am not going to get into a name-calling, insult-laden exchange w/certain posters. I will gladly debate others who are known to debate more fairly. Debate is good.

Here is one such video that addresses the Browns talent entering this past season:



Can someone find anything even remotely comparable preceding the 2017 season?

I think not!

Btw...............yes, Dorsey was given a lot of assets. I will never argue that. In fact, Sashi was left w/good assets. But, for this conversation...........yes, Dorsey had good assets, but he made a ton of good moves in just two years. The previous regime was not.

Oh crap............I forgot this part. Part of being a "mess" is how much cap space you have.

The Browns have approximately $62 million dollars in cap space. I think they are ranked 5th in cap space, but I did not look it up. Just going off of memory. That is not a "mess."

No arguments from me...

I always liked Crow (except for Twitter). UDFA that forced his way into the active roster with good play. Always solid, if unspectacular, on some pretty bad teams.

Peppers was coming into his own when he was traded. He was looking good at SS at the end of the year and was much better and more confident on special teams. I was a fan of the trade but was a little bummed that he wasn't going to continue getting better with the Browns. It was cool to see a guy go through such a dreadful first year and work through it.

I think that is a fair post.

Peppers did improve. But, he ain't OBJ.

Not asking you to agree. And I like your post. Just debating.

I don't see how folks are saying that Dorsey left the Browns "a mess."

That is not true in my opinion.

I looked it up. The Browns are 7th in cap space. Not 5th. My apologies. I thought I typed 7th, but apparently not.

I did not include special teams.

Overall, Dorsey's special teams are better than the Analytic guys' ST.

Kicker: New dude was better than Zane as a rookie.

Punter: Both are very good.

LS: I have no idea.

Coverage: Advantage to Dorsey's group.

Dude did all that in two years and we got rid of him to bring the old guys back?

Seriously Jimmy?

Short answer: This team is a frickin' hot mess....until they prove they're not. Not sure why you're so infatuated with Dorsey, he's gone. The real issues are whether Berry can improve the roster and if Stefanski can coach these guys. I don't have a good feeling about this crew, and I'm definitely not getting my hopes up like I did last year.

The GM's job goes beyond just talent acquisition and sadly Dorsey was ultimately sunk by picking a Newbie Head Coach that needed time to grow and a lying impatient owner.

If Dorsey thought he had to win or get fired I bet he doesn't go with Kitchens.
I was pretty well primed to lose games while Freddie figured out what he was doing.

I loved Dorsey's talent evaluations and agree with all your 2017 vs 2019 decisions, but sadly we root for the Factory of Sadness so had to blow up a good thing. Hopefully this new staff can use the existing talent and not cut everyone again.

J/c

Until we find the right GM/Coach/QB mix (and then stick with it) this team will continue to be a mess. I think it goes beyond position groups and talent ... we’re a franchise with a disease, so the individual parts of the franchise don’t mean anything

Doing a side-by-side comparison of a roster in 2017 during a rebuild and asset accumulation period vs 2019 with extra asset spending is pique agenda-mode. At least you could have put in an asterisk near players like Ward, Chubb, Landry etc. where those players are not here if not for the moves of that previous regime.

Not to mention few of your positions are incorrect.

But was 10:30pm on a Friday night when you wrote this, so there is that to consider as well.

I don't think the team is a mess.

When comparing players from one year to the next it gets a bit messy because we don't know someone else wouldn't have drafted or signed some of the same players or players of near equal ability.

Again, John didn't leave a mess. He made some solid upgrades.

I didn't even want to make the thread. I only made it because a few posters keep saying that Dorsey left the team in a mess and one keeps challenging me to lay out the moves Dorsey made.

I didn't want more confrontation and get into it w/those guys so I decided to lay my thoughts on those items in a neutral setting.

I'm okay if folks don't agree w/my takes. However, I think those takes have some logic and reason behind them are not intended to deceive anyone. I do not think that Dorsey left the team "a mess." And I do think he improved the team's roster significantly.

versatile, I would agree with your evaluations of the position groups. that was a fair assessment. I would take issue with a couple of your accompanying comments. first, in regards to the left tackle position, you said the analytics guys failed to provide joe’s replacement. their drafts were in 16 and 17 I think and joe was injured during 17 season I believe. he had not indicating a plan to retire so I do not think replacing joe was on our radar at all.

second, your assessment of our safeties was right on but I do not think peppers was drafted to play free safety. wasn’ he considered almost a ss/lb hybrid? I would have liked to see a Randall/peppers safety combo play together for a while.

third, I am curious of how would your evaluation of jd change if, and please God do not let this happen, if after one or two seasons we determine baker to be a flop and that we have no franchise qb. that would mean that he would have failed at the two most important jobs he had, finding a franchise qb and finding a hc.

I think Dorsey said from the beginning this was going to take 3-4 years and I wish he would have gotten that time. The hc bird killed him.

Fair enough.

You are probably right and I should not have mentioned having Joe T's replacement on the roster.

Peppers? I agree that they probably did not draft him to play FS. But, they did not have a better one on the roster and that left a huge hole in the lineup.

Baker might not succeed. However, the Browns did not have a qb and you draft a qb if you don't have one. Everyone knows that. The Analytics guys failed miserably in obtaining a qb. They passed on way too many guys. At least Dorsey went all in on trying to fix the position. It's just really hard to evaluate collegiate qbs in these times. Many are not asked to read coverages and go through progressions.

I will agree w/you that hiring Freddie proved to be a mistake. However, I think that was an excuse to get rid of him. Many head coaches fail and the GM remains to hire a new coach. I think there was an ongoing power struggle and Haslam pulled a Haslam.

One other thing. I posted the 2017 and 2019 comparisons to illustrate just how many positions needed to be addressed. Fixing the 2017 roster was no easy task.

Given the abundance of everything in the quick glance I gave your 4+ posts so far in this thread, you are going by players and talent, and position by position,

my argument is this isn't even relevant to the big picture, ... at least it wouldn--- umm, unless you get into a situation where like the team in 99' and 00' that had obviously not enough talent, (as a group), to compete for a NFL season, in spite of the coaching, game plans, and continuity they would enter a season with.

So, back to the big picture, Are the Browns a mess?

Let me just put some points to my argument that they are, and it's not to put down, really "anybody" actually at this point, except maybe the "Haslams' learning curve" and Depodesta because he's been around for 5 years of "5, no! 6! individual reboots of a new direction from the current direction the team was headed.

1. In spite of what the fans, (including me) were calling for at the end of the season, I believe the Browns would be better off today if they'd stuck with Freddie and Dorsey than a "new coach" and "new GM".

2. My belief in point one is solidified, in solid foundations, that we can point to the past and see that the same thing has been done since Romeo and Mangini, or before, at all levels, including Holmgren as acting owner, (and before), and the observable and repeatable results have all been very clearly what would fit the definition of "a Mess."

3. Though I hardly say it, and it's hard to prove it, one constant the Browns seem to have had over these 25-ish years of poor continuity is I think (ok so it's my opinion), they do too much to "fix" things in the offseason, ... the thing I hardly ever said but say to myself, over the years is, " you can't win the division in the offseason, but you can sure as heck lose it."
Because no team wins things with a new group of (assembled together) pieces that don't know how each other work/play together... anymore than prototypes win indycar races/( any kind of car race).

But the Browns have consistently tried a new group, of new major parts, (I've said we never move on from year 1, ... maybe year 2, ) consistently tried this, over the past 25ish years and only, mostly, "a mess" of results.

But what about the players TL?

... sigh... I spent some years watching the movements of the players on this team, (Remember where I was the day Melvin Fowler was drafted, doggone it!, and the road I was on the day Mangini traded the draft for Jets' backups, )

And I don't know how I'll feel tomorrow, but at this point in time, (and I don't like to say it but)

Robiske or Odell, I don't care!
and you can quote me on that! (as long as you incude this next part)
Because until the Browns get a coach that can match the thinking of the coach on the opposite sideline, IT DOESN'T MATTER!

Do they have that coach!!! I have NO FLIPPIN IDEA!!!

But he seems to fit the mold that Chudzinski and (other, I forget), did, and they failed miserably.

So, "Not a Mess" ?? By what measure??

Forgot two quick things.
Heck ya they shoulda kept Dorsey, but you have to get Jimmy Haslam to believe it, not me, because he's the one making the decisions.

and 2.

If the grass grows, and the winds blow, then the Browns have a ton of cap space. So that is not an argument,

because except for maybe one time when, (it's been said on this board that the elder "Policy" or team owner was near death, except for that one short period of time, the Browns have always been near the most cap space in the league.

SO having it this year, or last year, or whatever is pretty much moot.

This team is in the best shape it's ever been in since the return... Some people need to complain.

Seriously? That is exactly what most people said last year.

Is Stefanski proven in your mind?

Are Stefanski and Berry proven, in their roles, in your mind?

If the answer to both of those is not "yes!" (a resounding Yes!), then there is no way I can agree with your above statement.

I still don't understand this belief that we'd be better off keeping the Dorsey and Freddie combo in place for another season.

When Freddie took over the OC spot for that last half of a year, he came off as brilliant and innovative. I don't think anyone would disagree with that. He was retained and elevated to HC because of a fear if we only promoted him to OC, he'd have a repeat year, be so awesome that another team would steal him away after this last season. A largely irrational fear at that time IMO given the level of movement of OCs and DCs in the League. I didn't care for the hire, but I did understand why they did and don't necessarily fault them for taking the gamble.

But Freddie was a gamble.

EVEN after factoring in room for rookie HC mistakes, Freddie displayed none of the reasons he was hired. There was nothing innovative at all in his play calling... it wasn't even boring because it wasn't even cohesive or well planned out. His no nonsense, tell it like it is attitude didn't translate in to a disciplined team by a long shot.

It was a wasted season. And yes it's easy to describe it that way in hindsight. But hindsight also shows us that there were no aspects of this team under Freddie that were on an upward trajectory. Nothing.

I won't debate Dorsey having brought in talent. But on the management side of being a GM, what level of accountability did he have for how the team presented itself and how the season turned out? How much should he have had?

Last year may have been the worst HCing performance the Browns have experienced since our return...

...and to compound matters , the same guy was our OC, which did not help. The guy we saw take over the play calling duties in the last half of 2018 turned out to be unqualified to hold both HC and OC duties in 2019..

Right. And who knows what disaster might come from this bunch. If history is any indication, something will.

I think your takes are very logical. I agree, John made solid, bold moves. The team made great strides. Had he picked a better head coach we may have won 9-10 games. That usually gets a team in to the playoffs.

Don't worry about what the few who pick at you have to say. It's like politics. No matter what any President says or does, or poster on this message, some are going to complain no matter the course taken.

My only contention is when we start to compare one to the other, we don't know what the other might have done to build the roster. I think it safe to say they wouldn't have stood pat.

I like what we have in place in our front office, but on the other hand, I would be very happy if John was able to stay.

No one on this board has stated that Dorsey did not bring talent in...no one. You made it to almost two whole sentences before misleading...again. Then a few posts later you laid out this gem.



You don't see it because it's NOT being stated. I don't recall ONE poster who thinks that Dorsey did zero good things here or stated he left a "mess".


Thank you for finally providing the list of "all the talent" Dorsey brought in. You left out the talent he got rid of in some cases and completely ignored the depth and the at-times- drunken-sailor spending. Not to mention the reason why he was able to "bring in" players drafted quite high. I'll help though.

Your first player example is a guy you hate...or used to hate. With the 1st overall pick in the draft, at least (3) worthy options and trying to upgrade over Kizer (an exceptionally low bar) Dorsey gets credit for being smart enough to take a viable QB at #1...aka not screwing it up.

The second position group you listed has a guy who is only on the team because of the work of Dorsey's predecessor scoring an additional 2nd rd pick. I'd give Dorsey high praise for that pick if he wouldn't have taken Corbett before Chubb. Hunt couldn't play the first 10 games, not Dorsey's fault but JD first replaced Crow and Duke with Chubb (thanks to Sashi) and Hillard.

The WR group is hugely upgraded. But you left out Higgins and the wait-and-see-game of Josh Gordon from 2017. JD stole Landry and gave up an awful lot for OBJ - both those guy are making a ton of coin.. In 2018 JD also had Perriman...who had a very good year as a #3...and then he too was gone. So much for depth.

I blew snot bubbles with your comparison of LT. Joe retired at the end of 2017 but missed a large portion of the year. This little gem is classic: Mismatch. But, Joe retired after the 2017 season and that left Dorsey in a huge bind because the previous FO did not draft a replacement.

Wait...the previous FO failed to draft Joe's replacement...while he was still one of the best LTs in the game? And JD didn't fail because he did not upgrade over G Rob? Spin spin spin Dorsey gets a big F here and D+ at RT. Not to mention the RTs contract.

Hold the fort on the TE. Dorsey got rid of Fells and brought in D Harris. That was epic-ally bad. That wasn't just Njoku for Njoku but I understand why you would want it viewed as such. RSJ might be something...so might about 50 other JAGs like him in the league.

RG...my goodness. A double/triple whammy of fail. Discarding Zeitler, counting on Corbett (not to mention using the 1st, 2nd Rd pick on the guy), landing with Kush and ending up with Teller. That's as bad a series of decisions as any GM has made here STR.

DT? It wasn't Coley for Richardson. It was Danny Shelton for Richardson. JD created a hole and then had to fill that hole. The Richardson acquisition was excellent. But...who replaced D Shelton in 2018? Richardson didn't get here until 2019.

DE? Vernon is better than Ogbah when both are at full strength - no doubt. But Nassib, Ogbah and A Zettel are much, much better than Porter Gustin, Bruyan Cox Jr and McCray.

LB? So...he did nothing to upgrade this unit? Unless two draft picks pan out. Draft picks...hmmm...more to follow on that.

S? Burnett turned out to be a good acquisition. Not great - like Minkah Fitzpatrick - but serviceable. Murray is here at the expense of Ogbah.

CBs? Hold on. The replacement for McCourty was TJ Carrie at a billion dollars. An absolute stupid move by JD to trade McCourty like he did. It turns out that that was our first glimpse of his ego creating a problem. He has Ward because of his predessor gaining an additioanl 1st Rd pick. Greedy came a full year after McCourty was traded,

K? No one really cares but Z Gonzales had a pretty great bounce-back year.

Much of your list are players who were drafted - and two of the biggest were only available because of Sashi - but he also botched several picks. Chad Thomas in the 3rd is a perfect example. Avery in the mid-rd, looks promising, gets traded away, Corbett (my goodness).

No one knows which players another GM might have taken. Any GM with the bevy of picks gifted to JD would have brought in a lot of players. He didn't make any slam-dunk surprise picks that no one saw coming - maybe Chubb given how well he's played. But I don't give any GM special credit for just not screwing up the bounty of picks at their disposal. You can't give Dorsey credit for "all that talent" brought in from the draft without also giving credit to the guy who secured "all those picks".

Time for the brass tacks. Here is who JD brought in of-note outside the draft: Landry, OBJ, Hunt, D Harris, Hubbard, Teller, Randall, Richardson, Burnett, Murray, Carrie, Mitchell. He burned up some serious draft capital to get Landry, OBJ (especially) and Teller. Randall, Carrie and Harris won't be back...who knows about Murray and Mitchell. Hubbard will be a costly backup at best.

Here's the holes JD created: ZEITLER (starter), Fells (starter) McCourty (starter), D Shelton (starter), J Collins (starter), backup DEs in Nassib, Ogbah and Zettel, Duke until game 10.

There are some good moves in there and some bad. There is one absolute disaster and an an ego-driven stupid move. What there is NOT is "all that talent". That's ridiculously high praise for what he did - and un-did.

Today we need starters at:
LT
RT
RG
TE
S
SS
LB

So...after two years and bringing in "all that talent", with a ton of picks and cap space... we have THAT many holes in the starting lineup?

JD did some good things, some bad things and had an epic failure - not counting Freddie. In the end, he simply wasn't good enough.

Heck, we are gonna have a hole at DE as well ... and QB wasn’t the homerun we thought it was either, though of course we’ll give this another year

j/c:

Culturally we're a mess. Dorsey didn't change it. As far as organization and planning, we were a mess.

People need to stop just pointing to the names and the money. If he was a cap guy and/or a scout, that would have been all he had to worry about. Unfortunately, being a GM encompasses more than that. Part of the job is keeping everyone working the plan, managing people. There was no consistency in plan, and we had people running around like chickens with their heads cut off. Communication was lacking.

We'll be a mess until we aren't. Dorsey didn't turn us into something else. We're still a mess.

The new guys have their work cut out for them.

They have some space to do things with players, but do need to keep money to play those talented players that were drafted by previous regimes. Organizationally, they've got a lot of work to do. There will be a lot of new pieces to get organized. The work never ends. Once organized, they have to keep everything that way.

I think the mess that was left was the disastrous 2019 season and the ramifications left because of it.

Dorsey's only real mistake that ultimately cost him his job was Freddie Kitchens.

The team started 2019 talented and deep. The depth has taken a huge hit since the season started.

During the 2019 season key pieces to the team were lost for what seemed like head scratching reasons.

Defensive Lineman like Treveon Coley, Deveroe Lawrence, and Chris Smith.

Linebacker Genard Avery

Safety Jermaine Whitehead

Wide Receiver Antonio Callaway

Had Kitchens installed any kind of discipline to this team these type of depth would still be on the roster.

Now after the season not under Dorsey control we have saw the follwoing players released CB TJ Carrie and LB Christian Kirksey.

Also the following players hitting free agency and will probably be lost WR Rashard Higgins, LB Joe Schobert, S DeMarious Randall, S Eric Murray.

Add to that the Greg Robinson drug issue.

That is quite a bit of talent that was on the opening day 2019 roster that will not be here in 2020. There are now glaring holes on Offense at Tackle and at wide receiver depth. On Defense at Linebacker, at safety, and depth on all levels.

That is a lot of holes to fill in one off season. There is talent on the team at the skill positions. Hopefully, the new FO do not trade that away to fill other holes.

My frustration is this kind of turnover has constantly kept this team losing. I wanted Dorsey to keep Gregg Williams as coach after 2018. I feel strongly that had he done so the Browns would have won 10 games last year, would be coming off a playoff season, and be considered a serious challenger in 2020 to the Ravens in the Division and Chiefs overall.

I believe you are right about GW. I posted a few months back that if the refs didn't cost us 2 games in the 2018 season we would have won the division, made the playoffs and JD would have had no choice than to retain GW as HC. The 2 games were the Oakland game, the bad spot and fumble recovery that would have been run back for a TD and the 2nd Baltimore game. Again the fumble that was called dead that we would have run for a TD. Things would have been very different for us now if they made the right calls i.e. didn't blow the plays dead. It's water under the bridge but it's part of what makes us, the Browns, what we are.

Here's the hilarious part in all of this. Everyone in America claimed we had tons of talent. And we did. It's pretty much indisputable except for people trying to pull things out of their collective butts. So there's no real question about the talent. I know, I know, some of our posters consider themselves more qualified to analyze our talent than every expert in America.



As you have mentioned in your post, we have the seventh highest cap space in the NFL. So we are in great shape financially.

Dorsey did make a huge mistake hiring Freddie. That's on him and him alone. There's no excuse for that one.

Are we in a mess? Not from the standpoint of talent and cap space. Actually we are in great shape in those departments.

Here's another funny thing. People claim the regime before Dorsey got here, "Didn't have the time to finish their plan". Yet those same people claim Dorsey didn't have a plan after only two seasons with much better results in the W/L column. You just can't make that crap up folks! Well I guess you can because a hand full of posters did.

Whether we're in a mess depends on if Haslam listened to the right people in terms of the new hires. (And if people are being honest, we all know who that was.) If the new FO and coaching staff are good, we're in great shape. If they're Hue/Sashi 2.0 we're right back to where we were.

But hey, some people already have their excuses built in. If this bunch stinks it up it will be Dorsey's fault because we don't have any talent.

^This. The thread title is "Are the Browns a Mess?" The unmitigated answer is, yes. They were a mess last year, the year before, the year before that, and have been a mess for almost two decades. The new regime has yet to prove anything, and the team, with the influx of "talent", has been nothing but a $#!% show. So yeah, the Browns are a stinking mess.

This deserves to be repeated and may even be sig worthy

You know what - when you boil it all down, this is exactly true.

I think the purpose of the post was to talk about talent and whether Dorsey made the team better or not - but the answer to the thread title is "Until they prove otherwise - absolutely" ... And going 6-10 last year with this "talented" roster was a mess too.

I've already said I lean on the side of Dorsey adding a lot of talent. But it hinges on a lot of things and players: Baker, Vernon, OBJ, Greedy, Ward and the OL without Zeitler.

Someone said we'd be better off with Dorsey and Kitchens still? Could not disagree with that more strongly. Freddie was the single biggest problem and hot mess for me last year. jmo - I'd take Hue back before I gave Freddie another shot - just how I see it. Yes I'd prefer Dorsey was still GM but the talent upgrade is still in the wait and see stage & his choice for HC was mind-blowingly bad.

I will say that I am (mildly) impressed with Stefanski and the staff he's put together. But until they play - I won't get excited or go overboard which is why I have 'mildly' in there.

All the opining, discussion, and hyperbole about all the talent Dorsey brought in, or the picks and cap space Sashi created, or what this coach or that coach did or didn't do, or whether this owner, the previous owner or the owner before that were bad owners means absolutely nothing. There is something very wrong with this team, and thus far, no one has been able to fix it. It's hope season once again, so cue the euphoria because we have yet another new regime who's mission is to fix the Browns. But they are no more qualified to run an NFL organization than any of the previous regimes, and in fact, on the surface, seem far less qualified than most of the previous regimes. The team is a mess. No doubt about it. And sadly, by all appearances, given its history, the Browns seem to be an unrepairable mess.

On offense? Not even close.

On defense? Big time.

I titled the thread the way I did because I don't think that Dorsey left the Browns a mess. Now, someone is saying that no one ever talked about. As if I am just making it up.

Here are some quotes from just one thread. It's the Free Agency 2 thread. It's still towards the top of the board and is active.



Folks can argue on whether or not the Browns are a mess due to other factors like organizationally, always changing regimes, ownership, culturally, etc. That's fine. I am just countering the argument that Dorsey did not leave the team "a mess." I also laid out the reasons I feel the way I do.

Everyone in America? Who GAS? Name the names...talk about the players brought in and released. It's inconvenient to do so. I get it. But there are ample questions about the talent. To say "all the talent brought in" is complete BS. Some good...some bad. Nothing worthy of such ridiculous praise.



Great shape? Are you aware how many new starters we need right now? Do you see that we have zero depth at DL & LB



Who exactly are these mysterious "people"?



Some people? Name ONE PERSON on this board who has claimed that Dorsey didn't bring ANY talent to the team.

I guess you weren't watching or reading former GM's, former HC,s. media experts or anything else before or leading up to last season. Quite a few even had us winning the division. If you're unwilling to admit that actually happened, there's no sense discussing this with you.

Yes we need more players. Here's the catch, when it was Sashi everyone said he needed four years, now those same people claim Dorsey should have been able to do it all in two.

If you read the board you know who "those people" are. No need to play stupid.

Watch what the excuse will be if this new regime fails.

You authored a post detailing out "all this talent" - which has been disputed - and titled it asking whether the Browns are a mess.

Dorsey didn't leave this team a mess. It was a mess when he got here and is a mess now. There was a lot to improve-upon and there remains a lot of areas to improve-upon. "Mess" and "all this talent" debates are not like things.

Some folks seem to be perpetually angry.

I recommend more sex. It relieves the stress that can result in living such an angry life.

I know what others had to say about the Browns last pre-season. Just because they spoke it doesn't make them correct. Do you think ANY media-type analyzes the Browns roster(s) as completely as diehard Browns fans do? As thoroughly as I have? Hell no.

Look...JD brought in OBJ in a splash. Others saw that with Landry, Chubb and a record-breaking QB coming together. That gathering got hyped up to be proclaimed as being "all that talent brought in". But...there is much more to such lofty praise...there are more than skill positions on a football team. There were many more moves made than just bringing in Landry and OBJ and drafting well in Baker and Chubb. In classic media fashion, they go for the headlines and clicks. No one took the time to look at the rest of the team and the moves that were made. Praising the guy for using the picks that the previous guy created is part of the deal...but doesn't tell the whole story.

I don't get too caught up in the Sashi arguments. Like Dorsey, he did some good things and he did some bad things. He fell on the sword to keep from losing valued picks over AJ McCarron. He was Exec VP that got Peter Principle'd into the GM duties. It was destined to fail.

I have no idea who on this board is convinced that Sashi 'just needed more time'.

The reality that you posted that in response to yourself is very funny.

You know, to a great extent I agree with your last post. And I get what you're saying about "the media types". But when it comes to former GM's and HC's, I'm certainly going to give the edge to them over the every day Browns fan. Knowing what you're seeing can mean more than just seeing it.

Can't answer this from the outside looking in without hindsight... revisit this at the halfway point of the season, or in one year from now.

Every GM that has been hired by the Browns
Has either been under qualifed or over arrogant
Every HC the Browns have hired has never been
The best candidate at that time.

Each GM pre Dorsey just dug a larger hole for the next GM to fill.

The mess this team is in predates Dorsey. Sashi still is to blame. Farmer is still to blame.

Dorseys biggest errors was hiring Kitchens
And drafting Mayfield provided Mayfield
Doesnt get this team to the playoffs
This team finishing in last place is very real this year

Last year, when everyone was going nuts about the Browns, I was a voice of caution. I knew the culture that the Analytics guys had set would be hard to overcome.

I also had doubts about Baker, Freddie, and team chemistry. I can link those if you like.

I did have higher expectations than the what was realized. I don't think the roster or the cap is "a mess." I think that this team could still be very, very good.

I am not saying they will be very good, but I think it's a possibility.

I think it comes down to the three same factors as last year.

1. Baker. He has to play at least mediocre. If he plays good, this team will kick ass. If he is okay, this team will be good.

2. Coaching. We have yet another HC who has no previous experience as a HC on any level. He was behind both Pat Shurmur and Flip. Ehhh.............

3. Chemistry: Gotta start fast. I doubt the egos on this team will respect the "yes man" in Stefanski. However, if we start fast, I can see this team getting on a huge roll and making the playoffs.

Edit: I hope the FO new FO doesn't make things worse by letting guys like Joe Sho and Vernon walk. Spend the money. This team is built to win now provided my three previous items produce favorable results.

.....

You were not alone. But some folks think winning an argument is more important than the truth.

Btw...........I have no problem w/you believing in Sashi. I want to make that clear. It's your opinion. Different opinions are cool. Lies are not .

No, they aren’t.
They have questions that need answered, bu they have some talent, and an interesting new coaching staff.
They have cap space, a high draft pick, and seven rounds to find talent.

My interest this off season has been tepid at best, but what is it about Stefanski that makes you describe him as a "yes man"?

So your saying I still got a chance to get the job

And FA which should let them help themselves with eyes wide open or screw the pooch and make things worse.

I am excited because we have some decent options. I also live in dread because of the options we have.

Coin toss.

Yeah, seriously.. we have Running backs that are pretty damn good... The best we've had since Mack and Byner.

We have some fine receivers...

We have a decent Dline.

My point is, from a player stand point, we have more talent than at almost anytime in the last 20 years.

We do have holes to fill, yes, I think if you ask any team, they will tell you they all have holes to fill.

We have an unproven head coach but not an unproven coaching staff as a whole.

Name me a time when things were better and they tell me the teams results for the year?

I was speaking of the team in general. No, the HC isn't proven as a HC. But the staff has a good record from what I can see.

I didn't ask you to agree with me, in fact, I'd probably change my mind if you did! lol

From a team roster perspective, the Browns are FAR from being a mess.

Offensively, the Browns have never been better. The obvious is we need to shore up the o-line, but what team doesn't.

Defensively, one of our strongest groups (Linebackers) is now our weakest, but I'm still not worried. We've got a talented dline and cb group, and we must continue to build on top of that.

I think this remains to be seen. As we saw last year, all this talent doesn't mean a thing if this coaching regime isn't able to instill a suitable amount of discipline. Obviously every new coaching regime by default has to present and install how they go about things. That to me is the baseline. Given the wide range of problems and the wide range of players involved last season, I view this team as being behind the curve in the discipline category.

Thats why I added from a 'team roster perspective'...

I think we all understand coaching is instrumental in our success.

Again, seriously? Just about everything you mentioned we had going into last season. This team's a mess until they prove otherwise.

Yes. When I was making my claims that Dorsey didn't leave the Browns a mess, I was referring to the roster and cap space.

We obviously don't know how the coaching, ownership, culture, the new FO, and not knowing how to win will affect the team's performance. Those things have been issues before.

Our cap space is good. About $62 million. The roster is talented. All teams have holes. New England won 12 games w/a horrid OL, terrible WR play, and no TE. Cam Erving was KC's starting LT for part of the season. Their OL has holes, and so does their back seven. No team is complete.

That is a fair statement...the talk from this franchise has been cheapened over time...

...time for the new analytics guys to prove that they are not "just like" the old analytics guys.

Face it..the new analytics guys are the old analytics guys!

Let’s look at it with “glass half full“ goggles! Why not?

I think Berry is going to be aggressive in FA, but with a conservative eye if you will. I don’t see him taking any real flyers in FA, or reaches in the draft. Just my opinion.

...and there was nothing fundamentally wrong with the 'old guys'. Like is said with many regimes: they simply were not allowed enough time.

This team is the Browns until they prove their not the Browns anymore. I posted that statement just before last season began and it still rings true. We haven't proven anything other than we are the same old Browns. It's been 20 years and nothing has changed in that respect.

Were in GREAT cap space and there’s at least 25 other teams that wish they had the talent we have on this roster ... this is pure agenda for the most part (I’m shocked at how Willie feels about KJ ... he’s usually a Mensa as opposed to the menZa he’s being now .. *L* ) as far as how bad KJ was ...

Most seem to be having a problem sorting out how KJ turned the roster around vs the worst HC and staff hires possibly ever ... then theres the massive overreaction by the thief ... chopping KJ off at the nuts was totally uncalled for and way overreacting ... I expect that out of the thief and a few posters like Memphis and device but for the most part the rest of the posters on here are usually way bettor than the thief ... even there confused this time .. i actually think most are still peed and shocked how bad last season went ... that’s my story and I’m sticking to it ...

Here’s to hoping this crew’s got this .... LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooo

No, we have excellent skilled position players (RB QB WR TE) One of if not the best DE's in the game we have 2 Shutdown CB's young yes but it isn't a weakness anymore, Ogynjobi has become an excellent inside presence on the DL, the middle of our OL is solid, our Punter and our Kicker are solidified a little tinkering at the right positions (OT LB Safety and many another TE) and this team can compete for a playoff spot ... JMHO

Only one team spent more (player salaries and dead money) than the Browns in 2019 and that team went to the Super Bowl. We won 6 games.

I don't need to go further. If that's not a mess, what is?

I never said just because of talent, or just money, or coaching, or whatever... the whole thing is a mess, everything and it needs fixed.

Are their good pieces here? Good players? Yes. Never disputed that.

Did Dorsey make good moves? Yes. He also made horrible moves.

Comparing the 2017 and 2019 rosters proves nothing. Who here has said the roster of 2017 is better than 2019? No one.

I can tell you one thing however, if I get to choose between starting my team with the 2017 roster and assets vs the 2019 roster and assets I'm choosing 2017 every time.

The way you turned this into a Dorsey vs Sashi thread is misleading and hideous. I've said numerous times that gaining talent was inevitable. The collection of talent we have here doesn't work. Whether you want to blame the coach or the talent or some mathematical formula you came up with that says winning is hard and it's going to take time to learn how to do it, fine.

With all the assets, the talent, the cap space, Dorsey flat out blew it. If you feel he didn't and wish he was still here, I'm sorry you just want to be average.

DD,

I do not think Dorsey did a bad job and I do not think he left us in a mess. My only point is that showering him with a praise of "all that talent he brought in" is way, way off base. That's all I'm saying.

He did some good things and he did some bad things. That said, he MIGHT forever be known for Freddie and RG/Zeitler/Corbett/Kush. He had to deal with the incompetent snake and then watched Freddie do a 180 in his philosophy as HCs. It could also be 'remembered' that that mess is one that no one could overcome.

He was the best GM STR. How's that?

It depends on what STR means ... I’m way more often a menZa then i am a Mensa ... *L* ..

I agree he did plenty of bad ...

- cutting McCourty cause he got butt hurt ...
- cutting Kendricks for “lying” to the team while keeping Calloway who did the same thing but worse cause he hid things ... and it turns out Kendricks wasn’t lying as he still hasn’t missed a game due to his insider trading ...

There’s plenty more mistakes ... Corbett is a huge glaring one ....

BUT he brought in way more talent than he had misses ... overall he did a GREAT JOB ... and u know it dang it ... *L* ...

Just breakin your chops for the most part bro ... unlike some slingin mud at KJ u can take it ...

I think what keeps getting lost/forgotten/or left out is the fact that there are 2 aspects to being a GM: evaluating talent... and actually managing.

Sometimes in life we can be super awesome at one thing and it's enough to cover up the areas we super suck at. But sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are in one area, its just not enough to compensate in the areas you aren't good at.

In terms of talent, we have holes and needs, but I don't think the roster should be described as a mess. I have a feeling that we'll retain more players he brought in than we get rid of.

But in terms of the attitude and "culture" of that roster.. it absolutely is a mess. Dorsey flat out failed to manage his coaches and his roster. Whether it was because he didn't care or because he tried but was just ineffective, the result was the same.


On a side note: what would it mean if the current FO actually ended up keeping most of the guys Dorsey brought in?

That is an opinion. Not a fact. It might be true. It might be false.

I do think that there is much more evidence of the previous FO being guilty of that than Dorsey was. When you have coaches like Wylie calling out the FO in public and the FO not telling the coaches of their draft choices and roster decisions, you have big-time management problems.

Folks have different opinions on which FO was better. That's fine, but let's keep it real.

Alright.......I reported a phrase used by a poster that said something like me turning this thread into a Sashi vs Dorsey thread was both misleading and hideous. The refs left it up even though it is not true.

First of all, I started the freaking thread. I didn't "turn" it into anything.

Secondly, I did not mislead anyone and I wasn't comparing Sashi and Dorsey. The word hideous.........hell, I don't even know what the dude is talking about.

I made the tread because that particular poster and a few of his allies have been saying that Dorsey left the Browns in a mess. I call BS! They are not a mess in terms of salary cap, available talent, and draft picks moving forward.

I used the 2017 and 2019 roster comparisons to demonstrate just how much of the roster needed overhauling when Dorsey took over and just how much he accomplished in just two years.

It's not even a debate. And that is why some folks have to resort to stupid insults and manufactured untruths to even stay afloat in this particular argument.

Dorsey absolutely did not leave the team in a mess. The mess was already here and he was well on his way to cleaning up the mess that was left from ownership and the previous regimes.

It absolutely is a fact. As GM Dorsey was held accountable for Freddie’s performance. It was not very good and this was not anything close to a disciplined team. That is not opinion.

How the end result came about doesn’t change the fact that the end result was what it was.

If you say so. LOL