DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Are the Browns a Mess?

I know what others had to say about the Browns last pre-season. Just because they spoke it doesn't make them correct. Do you think ANY media-type analyzes the Browns roster(s) as completely as diehard Browns fans do? As thoroughly as I have? Hell no.

Look...JD brought in OBJ in a splash. Others saw that with Landry, Chubb and a record-breaking QB coming together. That gathering got hyped up to be proclaimed as being "all that talent brought in". But...there is much more to such lofty praise...there are more than skill positions on a football team. There were many more moves made than just bringing in Landry and OBJ and drafting well in Baker and Chubb. In classic media fashion, they go for the headlines and clicks. No one took the time to look at the rest of the team and the moves that were made. Praising the guy for using the picks that the previous guy created is part of the deal...but doesn't tell the whole story.

I don't get too caught up in the Sashi arguments. Like Dorsey, he did some good things and he did some bad things. He fell on the sword to keep from losing valued picks over AJ McCarron. He was Exec VP that got Peter Principle'd into the GM duties. It was destined to fail.

I have no idea who on this board is convinced that Sashi 'just needed more time'.

The reality that you posted that in response to yourself is very funny.

You know, to a great extent I agree with your last post. And I get what you're saying about "the media types". But when it comes to former GM's and HC's, I'm certainly going to give the edge to them over the every day Browns fan. Knowing what you're seeing can mean more than just seeing it.

Can't answer this from the outside looking in without hindsight... revisit this at the halfway point of the season, or in one year from now.

Every GM that has been hired by the Browns
Has either been under qualifed or over arrogant
Every HC the Browns have hired has never been
The best candidate at that time.

Each GM pre Dorsey just dug a larger hole for the next GM to fill.

The mess this team is in predates Dorsey. Sashi still is to blame. Farmer is still to blame.

Dorseys biggest errors was hiring Kitchens
And drafting Mayfield provided Mayfield
Doesnt get this team to the playoffs
This team finishing in last place is very real this year

Last year, when everyone was going nuts about the Browns, I was a voice of caution. I knew the culture that the Analytics guys had set would be hard to overcome.

I also had doubts about Baker, Freddie, and team chemistry. I can link those if you like.

I did have higher expectations than the what was realized. I don't think the roster or the cap is "a mess." I think that this team could still be very, very good.

I am not saying they will be very good, but I think it's a possibility.

I think it comes down to the three same factors as last year.

1. Baker. He has to play at least mediocre. If he plays good, this team will kick ass. If he is okay, this team will be good.

2. Coaching. We have yet another HC who has no previous experience as a HC on any level. He was behind both Pat Shurmur and Flip. Ehhh.............

3. Chemistry: Gotta start fast. I doubt the egos on this team will respect the "yes man" in Stefanski. However, if we start fast, I can see this team getting on a huge roll and making the playoffs.

Edit: I hope the FO new FO doesn't make things worse by letting guys like Joe Sho and Vernon walk. Spend the money. This team is built to win now provided my three previous items produce favorable results.

.....

You were not alone. But some folks think winning an argument is more important than the truth.

Btw...........I have no problem w/you believing in Sashi. I want to make that clear. It's your opinion. Different opinions are cool. Lies are not .

No, they aren’t.
They have questions that need answered, bu they have some talent, and an interesting new coaching staff.
They have cap space, a high draft pick, and seven rounds to find talent.

My interest this off season has been tepid at best, but what is it about Stefanski that makes you describe him as a "yes man"?

So your saying I still got a chance to get the job

And FA which should let them help themselves with eyes wide open or screw the pooch and make things worse.

I am excited because we have some decent options. I also live in dread because of the options we have.

Coin toss.

Yeah, seriously.. we have Running backs that are pretty damn good... The best we've had since Mack and Byner.

We have some fine receivers...

We have a decent Dline.

My point is, from a player stand point, we have more talent than at almost anytime in the last 20 years.

We do have holes to fill, yes, I think if you ask any team, they will tell you they all have holes to fill.

We have an unproven head coach but not an unproven coaching staff as a whole.

Name me a time when things were better and they tell me the teams results for the year?

I was speaking of the team in general. No, the HC isn't proven as a HC. But the staff has a good record from what I can see.

I didn't ask you to agree with me, in fact, I'd probably change my mind if you did! lol

From a team roster perspective, the Browns are FAR from being a mess.

Offensively, the Browns have never been better. The obvious is we need to shore up the o-line, but what team doesn't.

Defensively, one of our strongest groups (Linebackers) is now our weakest, but I'm still not worried. We've got a talented dline and cb group, and we must continue to build on top of that.

I think this remains to be seen. As we saw last year, all this talent doesn't mean a thing if this coaching regime isn't able to instill a suitable amount of discipline. Obviously every new coaching regime by default has to present and install how they go about things. That to me is the baseline. Given the wide range of problems and the wide range of players involved last season, I view this team as being behind the curve in the discipline category.

Thats why I added from a 'team roster perspective'...

I think we all understand coaching is instrumental in our success.

Again, seriously? Just about everything you mentioned we had going into last season. This team's a mess until they prove otherwise.

Yes. When I was making my claims that Dorsey didn't leave the Browns a mess, I was referring to the roster and cap space.

We obviously don't know how the coaching, ownership, culture, the new FO, and not knowing how to win will affect the team's performance. Those things have been issues before.

Our cap space is good. About $62 million. The roster is talented. All teams have holes. New England won 12 games w/a horrid OL, terrible WR play, and no TE. Cam Erving was KC's starting LT for part of the season. Their OL has holes, and so does their back seven. No team is complete.

Let’s look at it with “glass half full“ goggles! Why not?

I think Berry is going to be aggressive in FA, but with a conservative eye if you will. I don’t see him taking any real flyers in FA, or reaches in the draft. Just my opinion.

...and there was nothing fundamentally wrong with the 'old guys'. Like is said with many regimes: they simply were not allowed enough time.

This team is the Browns until they prove their not the Browns anymore. I posted that statement just before last season began and it still rings true. We haven't proven anything other than we are the same old Browns. It's been 20 years and nothing has changed in that respect.

Were in GREAT cap space and there’s at least 25 other teams that wish they had the talent we have on this roster ... this is pure agenda for the most part (I’m shocked at how Willie feels about KJ ... he’s usually a Mensa as opposed to the menZa he’s being now .. *L* ) as far as how bad KJ was ...

Most seem to be having a problem sorting out how KJ turned the roster around vs the worst HC and staff hires possibly ever ... then theres the massive overreaction by the thief ... chopping KJ off at the nuts was totally uncalled for and way overreacting ... I expect that out of the thief and a few posters like Memphis and device but for the most part the rest of the posters on here are usually way bettor than the thief ... even there confused this time .. i actually think most are still peed and shocked how bad last season went ... that’s my story and I’m sticking to it ...

Here’s to hoping this crew’s got this .... LETS GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooooooo

No, we have excellent skilled position players (RB QB WR TE) One of if not the best DE's in the game we have 2 Shutdown CB's young yes but it isn't a weakness anymore, Ogynjobi has become an excellent inside presence on the DL, the middle of our OL is solid, our Punter and our Kicker are solidified a little tinkering at the right positions (OT LB Safety and many another TE) and this team can compete for a playoff spot ... JMHO

Only one team spent more (player salaries and dead money) than the Browns in 2019 and that team went to the Super Bowl. We won 6 games.

I don't need to go further. If that's not a mess, what is?

I never said just because of talent, or just money, or coaching, or whatever... the whole thing is a mess, everything and it needs fixed.

Are their good pieces here? Good players? Yes. Never disputed that.

Did Dorsey make good moves? Yes. He also made horrible moves.

Comparing the 2017 and 2019 rosters proves nothing. Who here has said the roster of 2017 is better than 2019? No one.

I can tell you one thing however, if I get to choose between starting my team with the 2017 roster and assets vs the 2019 roster and assets I'm choosing 2017 every time.

The way you turned this into a Dorsey vs Sashi thread is misleading and hideous. I've said numerous times that gaining talent was inevitable. The collection of talent we have here doesn't work. Whether you want to blame the coach or the talent or some mathematical formula you came up with that says winning is hard and it's going to take time to learn how to do it, fine.

With all the assets, the talent, the cap space, Dorsey flat out blew it. If you feel he didn't and wish he was still here, I'm sorry you just want to be average.

DD,

I do not think Dorsey did a bad job and I do not think he left us in a mess. My only point is that showering him with a praise of "all that talent he brought in" is way, way off base. That's all I'm saying.

He did some good things and he did some bad things. That said, he MIGHT forever be known for Freddie and RG/Zeitler/Corbett/Kush. He had to deal with the incompetent snake and then watched Freddie do a 180 in his philosophy as HCs. It could also be 'remembered' that that mess is one that no one could overcome.

He was the best GM STR. How's that?

It depends on what STR means ... I’m way more often a menZa then i am a Mensa ... *L* ..

I agree he did plenty of bad ...

- cutting McCourty cause he got butt hurt ...
- cutting Kendricks for “lying” to the team while keeping Calloway who did the same thing but worse cause he hid things ... and it turns out Kendricks wasn’t lying as he still hasn’t missed a game due to his insider trading ...

There’s plenty more mistakes ... Corbett is a huge glaring one ....

BUT he brought in way more talent than he had misses ... overall he did a GREAT JOB ... and u know it dang it ... *L* ...

Just breakin your chops for the most part bro ... unlike some slingin mud at KJ u can take it ...

I think what keeps getting lost/forgotten/or left out is the fact that there are 2 aspects to being a GM: evaluating talent... and actually managing.

Sometimes in life we can be super awesome at one thing and it's enough to cover up the areas we super suck at. But sometimes it doesn't matter how good you are in one area, its just not enough to compensate in the areas you aren't good at.

In terms of talent, we have holes and needs, but I don't think the roster should be described as a mess. I have a feeling that we'll retain more players he brought in than we get rid of.

But in terms of the attitude and "culture" of that roster.. it absolutely is a mess. Dorsey flat out failed to manage his coaches and his roster. Whether it was because he didn't care or because he tried but was just ineffective, the result was the same.


On a side note: what would it mean if the current FO actually ended up keeping most of the guys Dorsey brought in?

That is an opinion. Not a fact. It might be true. It might be false.

I do think that there is much more evidence of the previous FO being guilty of that than Dorsey was. When you have coaches like Wylie calling out the FO in public and the FO not telling the coaches of their draft choices and roster decisions, you have big-time management problems.

Folks have different opinions on which FO was better. That's fine, but let's keep it real.

Alright.......I reported a phrase used by a poster that said something like me turning this thread into a Sashi vs Dorsey thread was both misleading and hideous. The refs left it up even though it is not true.

First of all, I started the freaking thread. I didn't "turn" it into anything.

Secondly, I did not mislead anyone and I wasn't comparing Sashi and Dorsey. The word hideous.........hell, I don't even know what the dude is talking about.

I made the tread because that particular poster and a few of his allies have been saying that Dorsey left the Browns in a mess. I call BS! They are not a mess in terms of salary cap, available talent, and draft picks moving forward.

I used the 2017 and 2019 roster comparisons to demonstrate just how much of the roster needed overhauling when Dorsey took over and just how much he accomplished in just two years.

It's not even a debate. And that is why some folks have to resort to stupid insults and manufactured untruths to even stay afloat in this particular argument.

Dorsey absolutely did not leave the team in a mess. The mess was already here and he was well on his way to cleaning up the mess that was left from ownership and the previous regimes.

It absolutely is a fact. As GM Dorsey was held accountable for Freddie’s performance. It was not very good and this was not anything close to a disciplined team. That is not opinion.

How the end result came about doesn’t change the fact that the end result was what it was.

If you say so. LOL