I was interested to try to dig a bit deeper into Baker's numbers and stats to see how he compares to other 3rd year QB's and also how he ranks compared to others in today's game. I was doing this for myself last night and decided to share ...
I know on the one hand stats do not in any way tell the whole story - and in some cases can be very misleading. Think of how many times a QB gets sacked - which might indicate a porous OL ... but in reality (like last year) be the result of Baker holding the ball too long, or running out of clean pockets and running himself into trouble. And obviously none of this discussion covers his ability to read a Defense Pre or Post snap ... nor does it reflect the speed at which he processes and can go through progressions. Those are really separate discussions that relate to how good Baker is or can be - not about comparisons to other QB's stats.
However with that said - I've seen people post how it took Brady, or Ben or Brees or whichever very good QB you name, a while to settle and "get it". So I was looking for a stats site that might give some context around that - and found what looks to be a really good resource, I'll post the link below. One of the stats I like on the deeper dive, is they also have a section for "Advanced Passing Stats" - broken into Air Yards, Accuracy, Pressure, Play Type. . . . I can't validate the accuracy of how they break all this down, and I haven't even looked at every aspect. . . . what I wanted to do was compare Baker's rating over the first 3 seasons, his completion % and when I saw 'Accuracy' in the advanced section, I wanted to compare his "Bad Throw" percentage to others... My thinking being that we see Baker play well and then make a horrendous throw ... or if we're talking about last year, he made several bad throws and then a good one! And how does this compare to other NFL QB's
So - comparing to others ** Note that the Bad Throw % is not available for every year, so older QB's whose first seasons (of starting significantly) I quote for completion and rating, I am forced to use their 2020, 2019 and 2018 Bad throw % numbers, I put an * by that stat. Not ideal but the only way to do it ... you would think that being older they would make less bad throws than when starting their careers, but there is no way to prove from this data.
None of these comparison stats prove anything - but I found it interesting and might generate some discussion. Certainly poking around that site is interesting.
Got to say I am pulling hard for Baker to be the long-term answer. I've been watching a lot of "talking heads" the last week, and they hate him so much that I hope he proves everyone wrong. I watched talking heads excuse Lamar's inability to play from behind and win a game with his arm as "he'll get better" and as recently as this morning dismiss Sam Darnold's struggles and "butt stumble" as Adam Gase's problem and his lack of supporting cast, continuing to claim that they don't know what Darnold is yet. However, they are all very definitive on Baker ... Cowherd, Ryan Clark, Marcus Wiley, ... it's all written in stone that Baker sucks. And it's all because they don't like the guy and want to see him fail versus the other two where they are more likeable. I hope Baker uses that type of stuff as motivation to get better and rub in in their faces. Plus, that's what's best for the Browns.
The subject of this post, this comparison, to me doesn't actually say anything about the players. It speaks more to the organizations the players are drafted into. Some players take longer to develop and need a structure they can be developed in. Big Ben was not all that good his first few years. Like Baker he had no idea what was going on post snap. But they limited what they asked him to do, he had the athleticism to extend plays mitigating the fact he had no idea what was going on post snap, had a great defense, and won games. The stability of the organization and the winning games thing bought Ben so much time to develop into the player he became.
It's time for the Browns to commit to Baker and continue to develop him. There is no magic solution at QB coming for the Browns. They are going to win too many games.
I really hope Baker wins in a shootout this week, tosses 4+ TDs, and has an amazing game. Want to see him shut these talking heads up. These guys want to see him fail so bad. Cowherd is so invested in this outcome that he dedicates a lot of air time to Baker. Come on Bake, let's shut him up.
And before the criticize police come after me, I am going to judge Baker harshly. I am going to complain about bad play. I am going to make statements like he sucks (if he does) or I wonder if he is ever going to get it. I am going to make a lot of people like FATE angry with my ridiculous statements. None of that will change the fact that I don't think he's a finished product, can get better, and that the organization needs to lock him up long-term and let him develop into the QB we all think he can be.
The subject of this post, this comparison, to me doesn't actually say anything about the players. It speaks more to the organizations the players are drafted into.
Well I think it speaks to the fact that many great QB's take more then 2 or 3 years to get to their ceiling ... I mean I posted some of the best of the best their - it wasn't Blake Bortles and Colt McCoy ....
And I nearly made a comment about how nothing can reflect or take into account the chaos and dysfunction that Baker has known since he became a Brown ... but didn't want to get the thread off topic.
Comments about how other successful QB's were limited in their first years is another good point - Wentz more so than anyone I can think of played well early in a system that didn't ask him to throw the ball over 8-10 yards very often.
Brees is or was the most accurate QB to play the game.
Darnold can't or wont get the ball downfield... Checkdown Charlie Frye in the offense that he runs. It was pretty evident last night. And mentioned by the announcers.
Why you calling me out bro? All I ever did is call you crazy for saying he should be benched! Remember? Like a week after you said we need to give him two more full seasons?
I said maybe benching him would help take a step back for him. I thought the context was evident in my original post about the topic that it wasn't a punishment or a forever thing. When you pointed out that wasn't the case I clarified it in subsequent post. I don't mind being called out for acting like an irrational fanatic because I can be at times, but I didn't think it was that kind of a take.
But ultimately I'm calling you out because I knew you would read it and respond, and I think it's fun to call people out on this board and see their reactions. I find this board to be an endless source of entertainment, and I like to do things to keep myself entertained.
People seem to forget that Brees wasn't good for the 1st 3 years of his career, and San Diego drafted Rivers to replace him because he had been bad. Rivers' rookie year was the first year Brees was really good. It takes time with a lot of guys, especially on teams with a history of losing and ones who change coaches like socks.
People seem to forget that Brees wasn't good for the 1st 3 years of his career, and San Diego drafted Rivers to replace him because he had been bad. Rivers' rookie year was the first year Brees was really good. It takes time with a lot of guys, especially on teams with a history of losing and ones who change coaches like socks.
Absurd comparison. Brees throws w/anticipation. Baker does not. Brees reads coverages quickly. Baker does not. Brees understands tendencies. Baker does not. Baker has a much better arm than Brees. Brees has a much bigger football brain than Brees.
Absurd comparison. Brees throws w/anticipation. Baker does not. Brees reads coverages quickly. Baker does not. Brees understands tendencies. Baker does not. Baker has a much better arm than Brees. Brees has a much bigger football brain than Brees.
People seem to forget that Brees wasn't good for the 1st 3 years of his career, and San Diego drafted Rivers to replace him because he had been bad. Rivers' rookie year was the first year Brees was really good. It takes time with a lot of guys, especially on teams with a history of losing and ones who change coaches like socks.
A completely different offensive line (5 new starters) changed Brees from average to very good between years 2 and 3.
People seem to forget that Brees wasn't good for the 1st 3 years of his career, and San Diego drafted Rivers to replace him because he had been bad. Rivers' rookie year was the first year Brees was really good. It takes time with a lot of guys, especially on teams with a history of losing and ones who change coaches like socks.
A completely different offensive line (5 new starters) changed Brees from average to very good between years 2 and 3.
Year 3 - 11 TDs 15 INTs. 67.5 QB Rating. San Diego goes 4-12 and earns the #1 overall pick. Draft Eli Manning and trade him for Rivers and a bunch of other picks.
Then it was the next year that they brought in the new OL and Brees lit it up.
Right. He was good, but definitely not right away. Not like Brees didn't have nay help at all seeing that Tomlinson was drafted the same year.
All I am trying to say is Brees is a 1st ballot HoF player, but he was bad enough his 1st 3 years that they were going to replace him. Someone said Baker is comparable to an extent and other said they aren't even close to the same player. HoF Brees and current Baker, obviously not. But 1st 3 years Brees and 1st 3 years Baker......I'd say they are similar, with Baker getting a slight edge. Baker has more weapons for sure, and he definitely needs to improve, but is currently at 93.7 QB rating, 7 TDs and 2 INTs. Not HoF numbers, but not bad by any means.
Then it was the next year that they brought in the new OL and Brees lit it up.
Right. He was good, but definitely not right away. Not like Brees didn't have nay help at all seeing that Tomlinson was drafted the same year.
All I am trying to say is Brees is a 1st ballot HoF player, but he was bad enough his 1st 3 years that they were going to replace him. Someone said Baker is comparable to an extent and other said they aren't even close to the same player. HoF Brees and current Baker, obviously not. But 1st 3 years Brees and 1st 3 years Baker......I'd say they are similar, with Baker getting a slight edge. Baker has more weapons for sure, and he definitely needs to improve, but is currently at 93.7 QB rating, 7 TDs and 2 INTs. Not HoF numbers, but not bad by any means.
Once Brees got settled into a system and got some protection he was lights out. We will see what we have in Baker once he is in one system for more than a season. Hopefully this is the system, because I think it suits him beautifully.
Year 3 - 11 TDs 15 INTs. 67.5 QB Rating. San Diego goes 4-12 and earns the #1 overall pick. Draft Eli Manning and trade him for Rivers and a bunch of other picks.
Good god - thank god we don't have that bum here! He'd get run out of town by week 4.
We have people seemingly unhappy with Baker's play and he's got a QBR (ESPN's funky system) that's 11th in the NFL and a tradition Rating of 97.3 and 20th in the league despite posting an appalling first game 60+ rating.
I doubt Baker ever gets close to the player Brees became in terms of decision making and speed of processing/progressions .... but then I am pretty sure San Diego never thought Brees was going to get there either and that was at the END of his 3rd year, not after 4 games of his 3rd year (and his 4th HC etc).
This time next year will be enlightening, for sure. A full season in the system, a full offseason to improve on the knowledge and comfort of being in that system... and not just for him, but for the entire roster. Everyone around him will be elevated by having another year in the system and only rookies and free agents will have the steep learning curve.
A couple of comments. A qbs success can not be counted on just because another qb started off bad. That is such flawed logic. I remember back in the day on the DawgTalkers board about how so many would compare Tim Couch's stats to Elways in the first 2-3 years. Dumb logic.
Hell, we can point to all kinds of guys who started off bad and remained bad. Either way, it's an invalid comparision.
Secondly, I think Brees is one of the greatest qbs of all-time. Me saying that Baker does not possess the same strengths as Brees does NOT mean that I want Baker benched or traded. I don't think guys like Matt Ryan, Phillip Rivers, Big Ben, Steve Young, Eli Manning, Boomer Esiason, Phil Simms, etc, etc are comparable to Drew Brees, either.
Baker is not respected all that much by those who cover the game, including a lot of dudes who actually played in the NFL. Y'all act like I am crazy for questioning how good he is. I'm not alone and those guys know more than we do.
Here's the bottom line. Baker isn't playing bad. He is not playing good. We'll see if the Browns choose to give him a huge contract or not shortly. I say he has a lot of proving to do, no matter what you guys say.
A couple of comments. A qbs success can not be counted on just because another qb started off bad. That is such flawed logic. I remember back in the day on the DawgTalkers board about how so many would compare Tim Couch's stats to Elways in the first 2-3 years. Dumb logic.
Hell, we can point to all kinds of guys who started off bad and remained bad. Either way, it's an invalid comparision.
Secondly, I think Brees is one of the greatest qbs of all-time. Me saying that Baker does not possess the same strengths as Brees does NOT mean that I want Baker benched or traded. I don't think guys like Matt Ryan, Phillip Rivers, Big Ben, Steve Young, Eli Manning, Boomer Esiason, Phil Simms, etc, etc are comparable to Drew Brees, either.
Baker is not respected all that much by those who cover the game, including a lot of dudes who actually played in the NFL. Y'all act like I am crazy for questioning how good he is. I'm not alone and those guys know more than we do.
Here's the bottom line. Baker isn't playing bad. He is not playing good. We'll see if the Browns choose to give him a huge contract or not shortly. I say he has a lot of proving to do, no matter what you guys say.
No one said because Brees started bad that Baker will be good. I was just pointing out the fallacy that they're completely different quarterbacks when Brees started out worse than Baker has. Baker has had four head coaches in less than three full seasons and need some time in one system to grow. Brees struggled when San Diego was changing coaches and took a few years to grow into himself and become the player that he is now.
Not many quarterbacks start out like Mahomes. Odds are Baker will never have the career the Brees has had, but it is also proof that players can improve and get better even as extremely as Brees did.
And again with the comment about him not being well respected. You are taking a few comments from a couple people and applying that to a very broad spectrum. There are tons of people who cover the game and played that do respect Baker as well.
Baker is not respected all that much by those who cover the game, including a lot of dudes who actually played in the NFL.
Sigh....
So Verse, start naming names....Lol at the payback.....
Mr. Contrarian, you get yourself so tied up in Baker Bashing it’s ridiculous. Is he the second coming of Brees, maybe, maybe not. No one is calling him an elite QB at this time, but functional is a whole lot better than anything the Browns have had in 21 years, and I am willing to set the knives aside and let him develop in the same system for a while.
I didn't resort to name calling. I stated my opinions, which have been proven right time and time again.
I was the one who pointed out his lack of pocket presence a couple of years ago. I was the one who said he processed too slowly. I was the one who said he struggled reading post-snap coverages. I was the one who said he held the ball too long and was responsible for many of his sacks. Folks on here degraded all those points. Now, we have video and statistical evidence to support everything I said. Instead of acknowledging those things, some of you are resorting to calling me out again. I'll continue to give my honest opinions despite what you guys say.
I didn't resort to name calling. I stated my opinions, which have been proven right time and time again.
I was the one who pointed out his lack of pocket presence a couple of years ago. I was the one who said he processed too slowly. I was the one who said he struggled reading post-snap coverages. I was the one who said he held the ball too long and was responsible for many of his sacks. Folks on here degraded all those points. Now, we have video and statistical evidence to support everything I said. Instead of acknowledging those things, some of you are resorting to calling me out again. I'll continue to give my honest opinions despite what you guys say.
He didn't say you were name calling. He asked for names of the people who don't respect Baker.
A couple of comments. A qbs success can not be counted on just because another qb started off bad.
You're reading it wrong. The logic is perfectly sound because it is pointing out that just because you start out poorly or slowly doesn't mean that is your end result. Brees is the perfect example of that.
And that was really the whole point of quoting Brees and all those other players first 3 years. Not all of them played more than 8-9 games a season in their first 3 years ... some sat, some had 3-4 starts and I ignored those seasons (although clearly a benefit to a rookie QB to sit and learn).
Past performance of other QB's doesn't guarantee success or failure of Baker... But reviewing past performance (and progress) of other QB's provides a good argument to suggest we shouldn't think Baker "today" is going to be the finished product. I have the same high regard for Brees that Vers has ... but I am 100% certain that Bree's processing speed and ability to diagnose the go to receiver based on post snap D was not as developed and fast in his 2nd and 3rd year as it is now.
I don't see the fascination with comparisons. Any comparison can be both scrutinized and verified to various degrees.
Baker is Baker. His sample size, to this point, provides both promise and confusion as he's regressed in some areas and excelled in others.
There is no question he has all the tools needed to be an NFL QB from the waistband to the neck. His athleticism is adequate to fill the position. He will never be a threat to run on NFL defenses but it is in no means necessary as a prerequisite for an NFL QB.
The jury's still out on whether he has the mental capacity to be an elite QB (the next step beyond having the physical skills required)... We've seen nearly two season of evidence that he both does and doesn't on any given Sunday. Seeing that he has in the past tells us that he can again in the future. To be blunt -- I'm not worried about it. I think he is the type of person that will work his butt off until he is a finished project.
I think (nearly) the only reason he is compared to Brees is because of his size.
My only comparison would be Brett Favre -- similar arm, similar physical attributes, similar moxie and leadership values, throws well on the move, gunslinger mentality.
Things get turned around on here and become personal. Thanks to ref for deleting a couple of those posts. I am going to go back to the comment that sparked the conversation and I'll try harder to explain what I was talking about.
Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
I tihnk Mayfield is most simiar to Brees.
I originally said that was an absurd comparison. I should not have done that. Sorry super. You're a good dude and I should not have used the word "absurd." You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree w/it and I will try to explain why.
When I compare players at any position, I don't look at stats at particular points of their careers as my main measuring tool. I might look at them, but I don't put too much weight into them. Instead, I focus on things like skill set, strengths, weaknesses, athleticism, intelligence, drive, etc.
I think Brees has some attributes that Baker has not displayed. Things like reading coverages pre and post-snap. Throwing w/anticipation. Staying calm in the pocket. Keeping his head up when pressured. Stepping up in the pocket and seeing downfield. Moving to the left or right to find throwing lines in the pocket. Identifying the blitz per-snap and exploiting it. Being more productive when under pressure.
I was not talking about stats. I was talking about their skill sets.
...Things like reading coverages pre and post-snap. Throwing w/anticipation. Staying calm in the pocket. Keeping his head up when pressured. Stepping up in the pocket and seeing downfield. Moving to the left or right to find throwing lines in the pocket. Identifying the blitz per-snap and exploiting it. Being more productive when under pressure.
There is a lot in there that has the potential to get better with experience in running an offense over time. He has had the polar opposite of that opportunity until 4 games ago. (Italicized.)
I recollect thinking that Baker's rookie-year pocket movement was very good - for a rookie. Then it all went south last year and is a point of emphasis this year.
If it's fair to say his rookie year was an anomaly, it's equally far to say that last year was also an anomaly. He/they are undoing a year of awful play/coaching...and that's not going to occur overnight. He's a long way from being a finished product.
Why does he need to be compared to anyone else? Why can't he be his own man.
Because this is a discussion board and it's what people have already done. All I did was post the actual statistics from other QB's first 3 years as starters + the 'bad throw' %.
Baker is entirely his own man - but in any competitive arena people's/player's performances are ALWAYS going to be analyzed in relation to others who play the same position.
Agree that the Brees comparison is due primarily to their size. I also like the Favre comparison but I tend to think Baker won't be the turnover machine Favre was...
Baker is unique and I still believe he will be very good to excellent at this level.
I wanted Baker for several reasons. He was the consensus #1 for several reasons. One reason I liked Baker was his ability to read a defense, to work thru his progressions and find the right receiver. His ability to look off receivers, or to pump fake to bait the receivers.... he was an absolute gem in college.
1, I do think he struggles to read a more complex defense with a lot of motion, etc. But I believe there's a learning curve with all young quarterbacks in that regard. Our franchise hasn't done much to help him in this regard.
No excuses.
2, I believe he knows where to go with the ball and where he should throw it. I also believe he doesn't throw it there all the time because he's looking for the big play, the homerun. I believe his issues with this were exacerbated last season. If you want to blame coaching, or OBJ, or whatever, fine.
3, I believe Baker feels a lot of pressure quarterbacking this team. We're the Browns. We have a ton of offensive weapons that want the ball. He wants to be a hero.
Baker lost confidence. If you want to say he regressed (I'm not), I won't stop you.
With that said... I really wanted McDaniels to be the head coach. However, I now believe Stefanski was the best fit for this team. I love what Stefanski is doing. Yes, we can run the ball. It's not that we're running the ball because we don't believe in Baker, we're running the ball to alleviate the pressure on Baker to win games with his arm. Baker can most certainly do that, but we don't need him to. Once he realizes that and he gains confidence back, he and we are going to be pretty darn good.
The "Baker can't read a defense" claims are not 100% accurate. Don't believe them. Is he great at it? No. Will he get better? Yes.
Stefanski is doing an awesome job with this team and Baker. Kudos to those who pinpointed him as a stud HC. Yes, stil too early to tell, but I love what I see so far.
Things get turned around on here and become personal. Thanks to ref for deleting a couple of those posts. I am going to go back to the comment that sparked the conversation and I'll try harder to explain what I was talking about.
Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
I tihnk Mayfield is most simiar to Brees.
I originally said that was an absurd comparison. I should not have done that. Sorry super. You're a good dude and I should not have used the word "absurd." You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree w/it and I will try to explain why.
When I compare players at any position, I don't look at stats at particular points of their careers as my main measuring tool. I might look at them, but I don't put too much weight into them. Instead, I focus on things like skill set, strengths, weaknesses, athleticism, intelligence, drive, etc.
I think Brees has some attributes that Baker has not displayed. Things like reading coverages pre and post-snap. Throwing w/anticipation. Staying calm in the pocket. Keeping his head up when pressured. Stepping up in the pocket and seeing downfield. Moving to the left or right to find throwing lines in the pocket. Identifying the blitz per-snap and exploiting it. Being more productive when under pressure.
I was not talking about stats. I was talking about their skill sets.
I agree with everything you are saying Vers. Don't get me wrong, it is not fair to compare Baker to anyone as Eve mentioned. I went with the Brees comparison because it helped me outline my thought process with Baker. Once Brees got protection, bulked up, and landed in a system that suited him, he was lights out. One of the most prolific passers in the game. All I was saying that it took him a while to get to that point.
I think Baker is is finally in a system that suits him, and he has talent all around him. I think we will see abetter version of Baker by the end of the season, and next year we will see what Baker can become. If he is still showing the things that are holding him back now, it may be time to plan for the future with someone else. I just think he needs more than 4 games in this system before we start truly evaluating him. He has looked much better this year than last IMO.
I used to think people were tearing down our players/coaches so quickly because they were sick of losing, but here we are at 3-1 and our QB has 3 straight 100+ rated games and so many still talking about how terrible he is.
We beat the Cowboys by ELEVEN, and people are acting like we lost.
"But they ALMOST caught up!", yeah, but then our guys say no, and won the game.
The Patriots have won tons of games (Super Bowls included) by 3 points or less. W is W.
After years of watching us ACTUALLY blow lead after lead, I'm not going to get mad that they ALMOST ALMOST blew it. hahaha, I'm gonna live in the moment and enjoy being "IN THE HUNT" after 4 weeks, which usually isn't a big deal for most teams but for Browns fans it's a much needed respite from losing.
Baker moved up three spots in PFF's weekly QB rankings. He went from 27th overall to 24th. His 68.2 The top 3 are:
Aaron Rodgers: 96.3 Russell Wilson: 95 Tom Brady: 90.7
Interesting, Joe Burrow is ranked 9th overall, w/a score of 79.9. That is fairly incredible given how bad Cinci's OL is.
Are these numbers influenced by amounts of pass attempts? I ask because if they are, wouldn’t that naturally skew the number higher for guys who are throwing mor often?
I am not positive, but no, I don't believe they are. That would be shallow and their rankings are based on analytics and go much deeper than those kinds of stats. For example, they identify things like who was responsible for pressures and sacks. Things like adjusted completions and interceptions. Passing efficiency, etc...
Maybe someone like cfrs, Milk, or Memphis can provide more details on exactly how they arrive at their grades.
I just did a quick search and there is info out there. Here is one link. I could post others if you like. I would like to post the article, but it has photos in it.
So, perhaps you are suggesting that the maturation to success, the gaudy statistical guys, are improved by their success or the club's culture helping them achieve the next step. The individual improves, but to a degree it is a self-fulfilling prophecy in part. Just a thought about why some make the leap and others never do.
Things get turned around on here and become personal. Thanks to ref for deleting a couple of those posts. I am going to go back to the comment that sparked the conversation and I'll try harder to explain what I was talking about.
Originally Posted By: superbowldogg
I tihnk Mayfield is most simiar to Brees.
I originally said that was an absurd comparison. I should not have done that. Sorry super. You're a good dude and I should not have used the word "absurd." You are entitled to your opinion. I disagree w/it and I will try to explain why.
When I compare players at any position, I don't look at stats at particular points of their careers as my main measuring tool. I might look at them, but I don't put too much weight into them. Instead, I focus on things like skill set, strengths, weaknesses, athleticism, intelligence, drive, etc.
I think Brees has some attributes that Baker has not displayed. Things like reading coverages pre and post-snap. Throwing w/anticipation. Staying calm in the pocket. Keeping his head up when pressured. Stepping up in the pocket and seeing downfield. Moving to the left or right to find throwing lines in the pocket. Identifying the blitz per-snap and exploiting it. Being more productive when under pressure.
I was not talking about stats. I was talking about their skill sets.
we agree on about 95% of the things when it comes to QB's. I was looking a lot at stats because I remember Brees pro bowlyear. he looked pretty good. not Breese great yet and he wasn't pumpkin chucking the ball everywhere in the USA. They both have that moxie and both had great RB's LT and TE's Gates
you can't tell me they don't look somewhat similar. even the way they act and run (Brees TD catch) as an example.
here are his stats that year 65.5% Completion 3159 Yards 27 TD's 7 INT's Y/G 210 104.8 TG
Here is what Baker is projected as 62.2% completion 2916 Yards 28 TD's 8 INTs 93.7 RTG 182. Y/G
If he has a few big games, he will definitely be on point with Brees year 4.
I just did a quick search and there is info out there. Here is one link. I could post others if you like. I would like to post the article, but it has photos in it.
I don't think they are an end-all. I have seen some crazy grades from them. The worst ones I have seen over the years are w/DBs. I think they sometimes ignore guys being in the wrong spot. I could be wrong about that, though.
J/c After watching the Brees highlights, I’ll be happy with a “Brees-esque” Mayfield.
Now, to split hairs, if BM can only develop into 80% of DBs skills, will that validate his pick to posters here? Let’s give him a break and say he makes the playoffs 6 times, and the AFC championship twice.
The 2018 Baker had better receiving options after #1 and #2, Landry Louis Callaway Higgins Coleman and Willies, not even including Perriman,
The 2020 Baker apparently has Odell Landry Hodge Higgins (who never gets used)(so does not exist) Peoples-Jones (who only has had special teams snaps and has proven very little so almost does not exist)
... Callaway was on FIRE, and Coleman and Louis were experienced, (shoot, Let's not forget Higgins actually got used, in 18 and he was probably more solid than even Callaway, Louis was the most experienced, and Willies always had a rapport with Baker,
I'm basically looking back on why 1st year Baker Mayfield had 29+ touchdowns and looked like a world beater; compared to 2019 and 2020 Baker Mayfield.
People may forget, Antonio Callaway had up to 7, between 4 and 7, I'm not sure, Touchdowns called back, because of ticky tack penalties often, like questionable holding or crack back block penalties; to go along with the touchdowns he had. Issues... but on the field? Dang, I miss Callaway and the 2018 Wrs.
I mean if we really missed them that much we could probably go get them. Other than Landry and Higgins who are still here, I don't know that Coleman, Callaway, or Willies are with any other team, are they?
Baker's issue isn't necessarily the receivers. Baker has lost his moxie. Stefanski is doing a great job of building Baker's confidence. Just sit back and watch. It's going to be fun.
...Baker has lost his moxie. Stefanski is doing a great job of building Baker's confidence. Just sit back and watch. It's going to be fun.
I think this is more the case than many realize. We've talked about the (4) head coaches in BM's career...what we haven't talked much about is that we are on the (3rd) iteration of BM himself.
Year (1) we had carefree, record-breaking, grip-and-rip BM...Year (2) we had a WTH all-around year including a WTH happened to BM... Year (3) is a new and rebuilding BM. It's so Browns (hopefully old Browns) that it's not even funny.
We change(d) coaches and FOs and QBs like underwear...then we finally/maybe/hopefully find a QB and we get (3) different versions of him in less than (3) years. I am encouraged all around (with the exception of our perpetual inability to cover the middle of the defense) but this ish is going to take a minute to completely turn around.
Jake Burns, who I respect for the way he sees the game, did another breakdown of Baker after the Washington game. He has the good, bad, and ugly. I have to post the link due to videos w/in the article.
I am posting this because he is seeing things in a similar manner as I am. The video evidence might help make the points more clear.
In a very strange way I thought that Baker was nearly always on time with his throws his 1st year here. My eyes didn't lie to me and I saw that as a real asset.
But lets step back in the 3 quarter of the Cowboy game he completed a pass to the right hash to OBJ, and if you truly noticed OBJ had great seperation but by the time Bake let it fly the DB has closed on OBJ. OBJ had the DB drapped all over him by the time the ball arrived and that is something I watch for. The play was where OBJ jumped up and ran and was tackled again at the goal line. That play didn't work as well as it would have if Baker had been on time with the throw. It's something I have been noticing quite a bit from Baker, this isn't college.
In a very strange way I thought that Baker was nearly always on time with his throws his 1st year here. My eyes didn't lie to me and I saw that as a real asset.
Without doubt in year 1 Baker made an absolute ton of throws where he was releasing the ball before the receiver was looking for the ball. Obviously depending on the depth of the route, air pass yards, the release was sometimes before/as the receiver made a cut. That's what I call throwing the receiver open - something Brown's QB's have lacked the ability to do most of the time. It's one of the reason's I was so excited. Baker's success was absolutely not based on a "chuck it up and hope" & whether or not the play calling and reads were limited or not - Baker threw with anticipation to a spot where receivers broke to and caught the ball. Baker did it more in year one than I remember any other QB's doing for the Browns since 1999.
IN the game against the Cowboys (and the week before), there were a couple of sideline throws where Baker is doing the same thing. Releasing the ball as the WR makes his cut ... making it much harder for the corner back or safety to react and make a play. I am hoping we will see more and more of this as we get more acclimatized to the offense. In my mind - throwing with anticipation and throwing receivers open is skill not that many NFL QB's have. (Or maybe my expectations have lowered thru watching so many bad QB's play for the Browns).
In a very strange way I thought that Baker was nearly always on time with his throws his 1st year here.
It's a tricky thing for a lot of people to recognize. Baker was struggling under Haley. If you remember, it was Hue who suggested that we alter the offense to incorporate some things that Baker did well at Oklahoma. That did not happen. Haley said it was "a process." When Freddie took over, Baker flourished. Freddie cut the playing field in half, went w/max protection, went w/a lot of quick plays where Baker threw to a spot. He also asked his players which plays they preferred. This led to a lot of quick throws where Baker to his first read.
However, he did struggle w/processing when that first read wasn't open. I talked about it all the time and most did not want to hear it. DC's adjusted in year two and started to try and take away those plays. Ironically it was Gregg Williams who set the blueprint. I kept saying it last year and was told "you hate Baker," as if that is a reason for Baker's issues.
I brought it up again this year and it wasn't until there were video evidence when guys broke down plays on tape that some started to admit to it.
Baker is doing some good things. He is still very accurate when that first read is open. He is doing well when on the move. He makes some very tough tight-window throws. He is still struggling w/stepping up in the pocket, keeping his eyes up when pressured, and is not quickly going through his progressions.
I posted a link to a video breakdown of all that a few posts up. Check it out. Sometimes it helps to see visual evidence instead of just reading words on a device.
I'd like to know your thoughts on FK seemingly getting away from "what the guys could effectively run (2018)" and his move (to my eyes) to make his a big-play, high octane (2019).
I have conflicting thoughts. I understood why he wanted to run a lot of 11 personnel. It probably still is, but I haven't researched it this year to know if it's true, but 11 Personnel was the most widely used package in Baker's rookie season. I posted those numbers in the Offensive Scheme thread from last year. Sean McVay from the Rams was everyone's darling and that is what he ran. I think Freddie also knew that teams would adjust to what they were doing after he took over as OC the year before.
On the other hand, it was a disaster. Our OL had some weak spots and the lack of extra protection hurt. Also, it did not fit Baker's strengths and highlighted his weaknesses. The team was also hurt by all the distractions and things never went smoothly.
I was not a fan of the Stefanski hire, but I think he is doing a very good job of getting the most from Baker. Lower risk passes, a lot of running, rolling Baker out, etc. I like what he has been doing thus far.
With that said, we played 3 bad football teams and one very good team. Got smoked by the good team and did well against the crappy teams.
The next two weeks should give us a better picture. Indy has a good defense, but they are banged up. They do have two DEs that could give our tackles some problems. After that, we play Pittsburgh and their D is no joke. I think they really get after qbs. That game in particular should tell us a lot about the Browns.
At some point, the D has to carry the O. But I don't see anyone at this point stopping them per se perhaps slowing them down a bit.
I don't think the D has to win the game for us, I don't think they have to carry the team .... but they need to put us in position where 28 points wins the game. Scoring over 30 to win the game is a tough call for an offense week in week out.
I said this before in another thread, but I can see how this defense could be effective as a complement to the offense if both continue to grow. The D could be one that, though it won't win a game on its own, can function as one that will give the ball to the O a couple times a game, and then pin its ears back when the other team starts trying to play catch-up.
It felt to me that last year FK out-smarted himself doing what he probably thought was staying a step ahead of the defense. But the devil is in those details - mostly things you mentioned there - and those details never got in-line...and I can imagine that the more "it" failed the more stubborn he got.
Inexperience, ego and stubbornness are not a good mix.
I was leery of the Stefanski hire due to BBFS and his likely (and sense proven) preference to also call plays...but he is winning me over.
These next three games will tell us a lot about this team and the coaches/coaching.
These next three games will tell us a lot about this team and the coaches/coaching.
I believe this to be true. I highly doubt we win both the Colts and Pit games - if we end up losing both games which is entirely possible.... what does the team look like, how does KS respond, what does the play calling look like, are we still disciplined and keep penalties down, does all the 'good' go out the window as we panic and make knee jerk reactions? Do we continue to put ourselves and players in the best situations to be successful?
The Colts game in particular is a big game for Joe Woods - this isn't a dynamic offense. Are we going to make them look like all stars are we going to do enough to slow them down?
These next three games will tell us a lot about this team and the coaches/coaching.
I believe this to be true. I highly doubt we win both the Colts and Pit games - if we end up losing both games which is entirely possible.... what does the team look like, how does KS respond, what does the play calling look like, are we still disciplined and keep penalties down, does all the 'good' go out the window as we panic and make knee jerk reactions? Do we continue to put ourselves and players in the best situations to be successful?
The Colts game in particular is a big game for Joe Woods - this isn't a dynamic offense. Are we going to make them look like all stars are we going to do enough to slow them down?
Sorry, I see no letup in this group. Finally after so many years we have talent and a staff that is getting the kind of production out of this group we really should have seen a year ago.
This team has swag and you can see they believe in themselves and each other, their a team. Coaches, players, front office they believe.
Will they lose again, very likely! Will they have mistakes and have to get themselves up and go back to work? Yup, but they believe.
Every single game we play will prersent a new set of challenges to overcome and I am convinced beyond a doubt its right this time. The Cleveland Browns have arrived, finally thankfully. I fully believe that it will never be perfect. That all said I fully intend on enjoying the ride.
These next three games will tell us a lot about this team and the coaches/coaching.
I believe this to be true. I highly doubt we win both the Colts and Pit games - if we end up losing both games which is entirely possible.... what does the team look like, how does KS respond, what does the play calling look like, are we still disciplined and keep penalties down, does all the 'good' go out the window as we panic and make knee jerk reactions? Do we continue to put ourselves and players in the best situations to be successful?
The Colts game in particular is a big game for Joe Woods - this isn't a dynamic offense. Are we going to make them look like all stars are we going to do enough to slow them down?
Sorry, I see no letup in this group. Finally after so many years we have talent and a staff that is getting the kind of production out of this group we really should have seen a year ago.
This team has swag and you can see they believe in themselves and each other, their a team. Coaches, players, front office they believe.
Will they lose again, very likely! Will they have mistakes and have to get themselves up and go back to work? Yup, but they believe.
Every single game we play will prersent a new set of challenges to overcome and I am convinced beyond a doubt its right this time. The Cleveland Browns have arrived, finally thankfully. I fully believe that it will never be perfect. That all said I fully intend on enjoying the ride.
I know technically this season's Super Bowl will be played in 2021, but I can't think of of a more fitting way to sum up 2020's list of "Things No One Expected to See" than for the Browns to win the Super Bowl thins year.
Getting back to Baker, I saw something just a few minutes ago that is relative to some of the things I was saying.
I was reading the Game Day forum and P-Dawg and 4-Life were talking about how fast Rivers gets rid of the ball. I was skeptical, so I did a search. NFL NextGen Stats is the place for such information and sure enough, Rivers gets rid of the ball in 2.45 seconds, which is 4th quickest in the league.
I decided to see Baker's Time to Throw. He has been holding the ball longer than any other qb on the list at 3.22 seconds.
Our OL is playing very well, but Indy has two good edge rushers in Buckner and Houston. The following week, Pittsburgh w/TJ Watt comes to town. Hopefully, Baker improves that stat quickly.
Getting back to Baker, I saw something just a few minutes ago that is relative to some of the things I was saying.
I was reading the Game Day forum and P-Dawg and 4-Life were talking about how fast Rivers gets rid of the ball. I was skeptical, so I did a search. NFL NextGen Stats is the place for such information and sure enough, Rivers gets rid of the ball in 2.45 seconds, which is 4th quickest in the league.
I decided to see Baker's Time to Throw. He has been holding the ball longer than any other qb on the list at 3.22 seconds.
Our OL is playing very well, but Indy has two good edge rushers in Buckner and Houston. The following week, Pittsburgh w/TJ Watt comes to town. Hopefully, Baker improves that stat quickly.
My question is, and I'll try to research it a bit, but how much more to we roll out compared to other teams? Rivers isn't going to roll out much. Baker does much better when we roll him out, which will take longer for him to get rid of the ball.
But odds are he holds it a little longer either way, I'm just curious how much that factors in.
That's a good question. Roll outs obviously impact the average time to release the ball - I'd guess play action would too. We know that in his rookie season Haley was calling a lot of plays that took a long time to open / develop... that's another factor. Versus timing passes like quick slants and short underneath throws.... I have not seen the Colts, it'll be interesting to compare in one game the two QB's and how long they hold the ball and whether there are open receivers Baker doesn't see or is too slow to process or go through progressions etc... or what the issue is.
Getting back to Baker, I saw something just a few minutes ago that is relative to some of the things I was saying.
I was reading the Game Day forum and P-Dawg and 4-Life were talking about how fast Rivers gets rid of the ball. I was skeptical, so I did a search. NFL NextGen Stats is the place for such information and sure enough, Rivers gets rid of the ball in 2.45 seconds, which is 4th quickest in the league.
I decided to see Baker's Time to Throw. He has been holding the ball longer than any other qb on the list at 3.22 seconds.
Our OL is playing very well, but Indy has two good edge rushers in Buckner and Houston. The following week, Pittsburgh w/TJ Watt comes to town. Hopefully, Baker improves that stat quickly.
My question is, and I'll try to research it a bit, but how much more to we roll out compared to other teams? Rivers isn't going to roll out much. Baker does much better when we roll him out, which will take longer for him to get rid of the ball.
But odds are he holds it a little longer either way, I'm just curious how much that factors in.
I've been curious about that in the past and seem to remember coming to the conclusion that the offensive play calls/scheme does have an impact just by reading the list.
And no, that doesn't change much, Baker IS holding the ball too long.
Please post a link, if you can Vers, I'm having a hard time finding current stats.
Honestly i don't think we need the stats to tell us if he holds the ball too long. Just watch games and your eyes will tell you that. There's no pat on the back moment here. This isn't about whether Baker is a good QB right now because he's not. It's about whether he can be or not in the future.
I don't know if Stefanski likes Baker or not. He borderline refuses to answer questions about Baker when asked. He always frames the answer in terms of the whole team. "Coach, what does Baker need to improve on?" "Our whole team needs to improve." The guy flat out refuses to discuss Baker unless it's talking about his soft skills...leadership, works hard, etc.
I don't know if that means anything or not. If the record is as good as I think it will be then it's unlikely we draft another QB. Free agency will be interesting at the QB position.
Baker just needs a light switch moment. I hope it comes sooner than later so the organization isn't seduced by going in another direction.
Please post a link, if you can Vers, I'm having a hard time finding current stats.
You will have to navigate just a bit. Go to the link and you will see the "Passing Leaders." It has all the QBs and there are many columns. You will have to click on "TT" which stands for "Time to Throw." You can then see the list of QBs there.
I probably won't be back on until tonight, so I won't be able to answer any further questions until then. I like to watch the games w/out distractions.
Getting back to Baker, I saw something just a few minutes ago that is relative to some of the things I was saying.
I was reading the Game Day forum and P-Dawg and 4-Life were talking about how fast Rivers gets rid of the ball. I was skeptical, so I did a search. NFL NextGen Stats is the place for such information and sure enough, Rivers gets rid of the ball in 2.45 seconds, which is 4th quickest in the league.
I decided to see Baker's Time to Throw. He has been holding the ball longer than any other qb on the list at 3.22 seconds.
Our OL is playing very well, but Indy has two good edge rushers in Buckner and Houston. The following week, Pittsburgh w/TJ Watt comes to town. Hopefully, Baker improves that stat quickly.
Good stuff man...I think that truly stems from two issues...Bakers lack of seeing the field and his read progressions...As he does look very shaky in a clean pocket once his 1st read is taken away, gets that scared stuttered look...scrambles around prematurely, then the play is usually a waste by then (he usually is either sacked or throws it away)...and like you said hopefully he fixes that over the course of the year...as that is vital to his play.
I think its just taken a couple years of Baker learning that he isnt the team stud and realizing its time to manage the game and get the ball to the Superstars instead of trying to carry the team the team himself. Its a hard learning curve when you had a collegiate career of taking the game completely over and carrying his team to victory. He excelled in college but this is the NFL players are faster, smarter, stronger and where he dominated the NCAA he is just mediocre in the NFL. Glad to see he has settled into this role and hopefully if team management keeps improving the roster as they have he may have a great career in Cleveland.
Judging by some of the posts on other threads, I feel I have to say that I am not going to get into the personality battles w/certain other posters that want to throw words around like "agenda."
Here are some of my latest observations/thoughts.
--I thought Baker did a better job w/his progressions yesterday. There was one play where he was looking over the middle and quickly through a pass out to the right flat. It was quick. Impressive. I also saw him do a better job on other occasions of being quicker w/his reads.
--I do think he held it too long on some occasions.
--I thought he made some plus throws. His arm strength was showing. When he steps into a throw, it's a laser.
--I thought he missed some throws that should have been completions. He is almost always high when he misses.
--I think he made a great read and throw on the TD to Higgins.
--I thought as the game went on, he became more careless w/the ball. He forced some throws and was bailed out by the receiver making a great catch or by the defender missing what should have been a pick.
--For the second straight week, he was bad in the 4th quarter. Dan Orlovsky was on "Get Up" earlier this morning talking about Baker's play. He shared the good and the bad. I tried to find the video for that, but it is not up yet. Orlovsky gave Baker's 4th quarter numbers for the last two weeks and said they were the lowest in terms of QBR in the entire league. As we know, Baker really struggled in the 4th quarter last year. Do a quick search and you will see all the articles about it.
--The most concerning thing is that I am beginning to wonder if the coaching staff trusts Baker in crunch time. Last week, Baker had a bad 4th quarter and when Dallas mounted a furious comeback, Stefanski chose to run an end-around w/OBJ instead of relying on Baker's arm. That's one play. But yesterday, we started off w/Hunt who ran for a first down on the first play. Two more running plays followed. I forget the exact yardage, but I think it was 3rd and 8 and Stefanski did not allow Baker to throw. Instead, we gave it to D'Ernest Johnson, who broke off a long run. I don't think we threw it one time. Like Orlovsky said today and I have been saying for a few weeks, there are going to be times when the Browns need Baker to make plays at the end of games. He hasn't been doing that and Stefanski isn't even calling his number. I think this is significant because this team is loaded w/talent and can easily be a playoff team and probably more, but they need the qb to be able to carry them at times, especially as the games become more meaningful.
I agree with just about all you're saying. The only potential argument is the 'coaches not trusting Baker' part. It's hard for me to come to that conclusion with our running game and the talent we have toting the rock (even with Chubb out). Our offense is what it is... we are geared for (and very good at) running the ball.
If anything, Stefanski put the ball in Baker's hand far more and far earlier this game than I was expecting. The talking heads mentioned this in the first half... at some point in the second quarter, they said they were surprised Hunt only had so many carries.
While I disagree with you on point of Stefanski's trust in Baker, I wholeheartedly agree with Baker's performance late in the game (which might have really been the crux of your argument anyway). Dude needs to hit those passes when they're there. There was the sailed pass to OBJ last week right before his end-around, and there were several yesterday. If Baker is going to make it even as a QB that rides his running game and takes opportunistic shots, he's gotta hit those when they're there (and they're there... nobody is making the ol' argument that receivers aren't getting open).
Fair point. I better clarify. I was talking about the final drives the last two weeks when the game was really on the line. You are right that Stefanski asked a lot of Baker in yesterday's first half. And I am not even sure I am coming to the correct conclusion because there is not enough data to confirm anything. It's just a feeling I have.
Last week, some posters talked about the end around w/OBJ was perhaps a bad call because if OBJ doesn't make that guy miss, we would have been in a terrible down and distance situation. I privately wondered why Stefanski just didn't allow Baker to throw. Then yesterday, Baker did not throw at all on the last drive. Not even when it was 3rd and very long and we desperately needed a first down. You have to admit that it was an odd call.
Oh, I hear you. If you wanted to pick a play to argue your point, that long run on 3rd at the end is definitely it. I'll also say that if we're still having this discussion at the end of the season, then I'd probably be looking at it differently.
With the way our offense is built, in general I'm happy with Baker not throwing at all to run out a win. To your point, that long 3rd-down run was a funny call. But hey, it worked... so what do we know, right? :-p
On the Browns' second-to-last possession, Baker was pummeled on the last two plays with the very-last play resulting in an interception. He was clearly hurting and went into the tent to be evaluated.
On our last possession in a 2nd-and-9, Stefanski called a pass play that went incomplete to Hooper...which stopped the clock. Stefanski sure as hell wasn't about to risk stopping the clock (again) on 3rd down. As we saw twice in the second half, even a very-reliable Landry can drop perfectly-thrown passes.
D'Earnest then sealed the deal.
I don't think the play-call(s) there (choosing to run the ball and keep the clock running) had anything to do with trusting Baker and a lot to do with a head coach who understands that if you have the lead when the clock says "00:00" then you win.
two straight games in the 4th, when we needed Bake to make THE play, he couldn't.
and the FOLLOWING drives after that, the games was sealed by keeping it on the ground.
I'm trying to get behind bake, but its hard. he leaves a lot of plays on the field, and i'm watching guys make some unbelievable catches.
and look, thats what they get paid to do, after all. but its starting to remind me a bit of DA, where braylon and Winslow were really bailing DA out of some horrible passes. obviously DA did his part and make great throws throughout that season as well, but guys were out there making circus catches.
that one throw to Landry where he caught it from behind the defenders head. that's not a good throw.
for me, i need to see baker make THE throw when we really need it.
two straight games, that hasn't happened. he's not gonna catch any heat because as long as we're winning, but man, at some point, he's gotta show us something in the 4th quarter.
Baker has his moments, but he also has his fair share of blunders. baker had an ok game yesterday.
2 TDs and 2 picks is an ok game. people saying he had a good game are really pushing it.
and before people get mad, he's not going anywhere. he's the franchise QB, we ain't drafting anybody else HOPEFULLY for the foreseeable future.
Here is a link to what Orlovsky was talking about. It wasn't for just the last two games. It's for the year.
In the 4th quarter, Baker is 7 for 18 for 82 yards and a 38.9 completion percentage. 1 TD and 2 picks. With a rating of 27.8.
I'll provide a link so you can see for yourselves. But, for comparison sake, his QBR in the first quarter is 90.8 2nd quarter is 124.3. Third quarter is 58.8.
I guess I never really noticed Baker falling off late in games quite like those ratings would suggest. What I did notice is our offense (overall) losing momentum and not being able to move the ball.
Do we know what is happening here? Is it the run game being slowed down and Baker being asked to capitalize and failing? Is the playcalling on offense following the playcalling on D and getting more conservative in an attempt to bleed clock? Are defenses seeing something and adjusting at the half?
Here is a link to what Orlovsky was talking about. It wasn't for just the last two games. It's for the year.
In the 4th quarter, Baker is 7 for 18 for 82 yards and a 38.9 completion percentage. 1 TD and 2 picks. With a rating of 27.8.
I'll provide a link so you can see for yourselves. But, for comparison sake, his QBR in the first quarter is 90.8 2nd quarter is 124.3. Third quarter is 58.8.
One thing if for sure, Baker has to be top 5 in the amount of time afforded to throw..He should be able to read the whole field in the time hes been given. The line this year is amazing
Hahaha. I should clarify. I'm more surprised his rating was as high as it was earlier in the game. His misses usually stick out more, in general (for me).
I was struggling to start figuring out what exactly is happening to our offense in the second half of these games, but those numbers definitely support the argument that the issue is largely (things like this never have just 1 root cause) with the QB position.
new system, 4th head coach, and already have playmakers and some Olinemen shuffling in and out.
bad QB play means were aren't 4-1 right now. we're 1-4.
is growth being shown? yes
is accuracy being shown? yes
has he become a better leader? yes
is the arm talent being shown? yes
the frustration is that this is his 3rd year, and he's making decisions like a rookie, but thats because when you have this much change in such a short amount of time, i can't expect too many QB's to thrive in that situation.
and all things being considered....he's thriving. hopefully with Njoku back, and makes the reads a bit easier. hopefully with his boy Higgins back in the lineup, it makes the reads a bit easier.
people brought it up in the post game thread; when Higgins is in the game, good things just happen.
next week we have pittsburgh. as long as Baker continues to show growth, especially against good teams, then at the end of the day, He's the undisputed guy.
Here is a link to what Orlovsky was talking about. It wasn't for just the last two games. It's for the year.
In the 4th quarter, Baker is 7 for 18 for 82 yards and a 38.9 completion percentage. 1 TD and 2 picks. With a rating of 27.8.
I'll provide a link so you can see for yourselves. But, for comparison sake, his QBR in the first quarter is 90.8 2nd quarter is 124.3. Third quarter is 58.8.
A player doesn't look at the clock and suddenly start playing different; they don't have some weird inner thing that says "it's the third quarter, it's time to forget how to throw for the next twelve minutes". The coaches have DEFINITELY been calling things different, however. We've been playing with leads and going almost "prevent Offense" to try to burn clock. We've been doing a ton of Run-Run-Pass-Punt; especially yesterday during the second half doldrums. When you run into a wall on 1st & 2nd downs, you're using some clock, but you're making it tough on your guys for 3rd down. The offense as a whole got WAY too conservative in the second half and I do not put that on any of the guys standing between the lines; that's on the guys calling things in.
As a note, until that last drive where Johnson finally got a little success, it felt like all the effective pull blocking we'd seen in the first half had disappeared and we were just trying to straight-up man block while running Metcalf up the Middle. Then, suddenly, the pulling guards and all that resurfaced and the offense started to click again.
Just my thoughts on those percentages by quarter; yes, those are his numbers, but those are also numbers that require the offense to be clicking in the same manner.
I tend to agree with people on both sides of the fence. I think Baker's confidence was all but shattered last season. I see a coach taking the slow lane in the restoration process. I really don't have a problem with that as long as I don't see constant egregious mistakes. "Trust your eyes" has been caught on mic a few times already, so I don't think Stefanski doesn't trust his QB.
Did he trust him on 3rd and 9 yesterday? The short answer is "no". But we have also been trained to judge our coaches while watching them play checkers. Stefanski plays chess.
Here are Baker's last three pass attempts:
3rd & 8 at IND 36 (7:41 - 4th) (Shotgun) B.Mayfield sacked at CLV 48 for -16 yards (B.Okereke).PENALTY on IND-B.Okereke, Defensive Offside, 5 yards, enforced at IND 36 - No Play. Colts dial up fierce blitz, defenders in his face, sacked and slow to get up.
3rd & 3 at IND 31 (7:16 - 4th) (Shotgun) B.Mayfield pass short middle intended for J.Landry INTERCEPTED by A.Walker [J.Houston] at IND 19. A.Walker pushed ob at IND 30 for 11 yards (O.Beckham). Baker got CRUSHED.
2nd & 9 at CLE 43 (2:30 - 4th) B.Mayfield pass incomplete short left to A.Hooper. Baker has two defenders in his face the second he turns from play-action, gets rocked and smashes his hand into defender's helmet.
Checkers: Do what everyone in the world knows you will, attempt a pass to pick up a 1st down.
Chess: -- Your OL is tired, defense has created pressure at will. -- Your QB is hurting, has made more mistakes in the second half, is "rattled" by the constant pressure. -- A conservative play call all but eliminates a disastrous outcome which may directly cost the game and directly affect the "restoration process". -- Keeping the clock moving eliminates the "free" TO at the 2:00 warning and you take 25 seconds off the clock. -- Your punter can pin them deep as he did the last possession. -- A run is the last thing they're expecting, especially when they don't see Hunt in the backfield.
Two weeks in a row, the game was iced with an unexpected play call. While I'm not going to try and gauge what percentage of that decision was based on our coach not trusting his QB, I won't ignore the fact either. He also didn't trust our OL or receivers at that point; the line was gassed and getting "outworked", trusted receivers were dropping easy passes.
Take advantage of upside / mitigate risk. THAT'S winning football. THAT'S a breath of fresh air in Cleveland.
Do you agree w/Orlovsky and me about Baker is going to have step-up and win games?
If the answer is yes, how confident are you in him given what we have seen?
My eyes have not lied to me yet, even when folks ridiculed me about him holding the ball and being slow w/his reads. We now have guys who have analyzed those things and displayed visual evidence. We have Next Gen stats confirming those things the last two years. So, please don't dismiss what my eyes are telling me in regards to being very nervous about Baker in the clutch and perhaps Stef is a bit reluctant to put the game in his hands in crunch time. Not asking you to agree w/me, but maybe just keep your eyes open?
I have to laugh like hell at those who NIT PICK..pretending that they are some kind of football guru.
This "make believe pretending" that some do..it's just some fantasy game you're making up in your head, making a 50-50 bet that you might have guessed right, so you can say..look at me, I'm so damn good at this "fantasy game".
As for the talking heads on TV...they just play "the same make believe fantasy game" with more people listening to their 50-50 predictions.
The "make believe game", inside the real game. IMO
I tend to agree with people on both sides of the fence. I think Baker's confidence was all but shattered last season. I see a coach taking the slow lane in the restoration process. I really don't have a problem with that as long as I don't see constant egregious mistakes. "Trust your eyes" has been caught on mic a few times already, so I don't think Stefanski doesn't trust his QB.
Did he trust him on 3rd and 9 yesterday? The short answer is "no". But we have also been trained to judge our coaches while watching them play checkers. Stefanski plays chess.
Here are Baker's last three pass attempts:
3rd & 8 at IND 36 (7:41 - 4th) (Shotgun) B.Mayfield sacked at CLV 48 for -16 yards (B.Okereke).PENALTY on IND-B.Okereke, Defensive Offside, 5 yards, enforced at IND 36 - No Play. Colts dial up fierce blitz, defenders in his face, sacked and slow to get up.
3rd & 3 at IND 31 (7:16 - 4th) (Shotgun) B.Mayfield pass short middle intended for J.Landry INTERCEPTED by A.Walker [J.Houston] at IND 19. A.Walker pushed ob at IND 30 for 11 yards (O.Beckham). Baker got CRUSHED.
2nd & 9 at CLE 43 (2:30 - 4th) B.Mayfield pass incomplete short left to A.Hooper. Baker has two defenders in his face the second he turns from play-action, gets rocked and smashes his hand into defender's helmet.
Checkers: Do what everyone in the world knows you will, attempt a pass to pick up a 1st down.
Chess: -- Your OL is tired, defense has created pressure at will. -- Your QB is hurting, has made more mistakes in the second half, is "rattled" by the constant pressure. -- A conservative play call all but eliminates a disastrous outcome which may directly cost the game and directly affect the "restoration process". -- Keeping the clock moving eliminates the "free" TO at the 2:00 warning and you take 25 seconds off the clock. -- Your punter can pin them deep as he did the last possession. -- A run is the last thing they're expecting, especially when they don't see Hunt in the backfield.
Two weeks in a row, the game was iced with an unexpected play call. While I'm not going to try and gauge what percentage of that decision was based on our coach not trusting his QB, I won't ignore the fact either. He also didn't trust our OL or receivers at that point; the line was gassed and getting "outworked", trusted receivers were dropping easy passes.
Take advantage of upside / mitigate risk. THAT'S winning football. THAT'S a breath of fresh air in Cleveland.
I think your post here and Swish's last post are spot on.
No-one is saying Baker is perfect. Baker is being coached, he has shown improvement. The OL play has been great but there were plays at the end of the game yesterday with subs in along the OL where Baker was getting hit quickly. The second interception he got hit brutally as he was throwing, pretty sure that was what caused the pick ...
Pittsburgh are another good D - they know Baker. Should tell us a little more about he maturation and development of Baker.
First, I'm NOT dismissing your eyes, I trust yours better than my own lol.
Do I agree Baker is going to have step-up and win games?
YES. All QBs are put in that position. It may look different on this team because we have two great RBs and our run blocking is among the best in the league thus far. "Put the team on his back" moments won't be a way of life by any stretch. Is preserving a win and "stepping up to win a game" the same thing? I don't think they are. Preserving a victory is game-manager type situation, and your coaching and play-calling is totally different in each.
How confident am I that he can, given what we have seen?
Again, by wording your questions and statements the way you have, I assume you mean the following type situation: Browns down by a TD or more late in a game, no time to run or run has been ineffective, Baker needs to win the game. The truth? Not overly confident. Do I like our chances? While I could easily pick a handful of QBs I'd rather have in the backfield right now, I not going to "pucker". I like Baker in that role and look forward to seeing him in those situations. I still think he will be that guy sooner rather than later. I'm not going to judge him in that regard by comparing how he has done, or how much the coach trusts him, in game-manager-preserve-the-lead type situations. I think those are two different things.
My eyes are wide open, waiting for the chance to present itself, it hasn't yet this season. We've been blown off the track in one game and have had healthy leads in the other three.
Here's what I watched yesterday. We built a lead during the stretch where we threw the ball at a 2-1 ratio compared to running. Baker made mistakes, had a few bad passes, a few really good passes, as far as "throwing the football", he was better the week before. But he still got it done. We moved the chains, he was good on third down, we scored. We didn't punt til 3:58 in the third -- with a non-existent running game.
When you called Baker the "weak link" in this offense, I didn't take it to be such a crazy statement. It's just as much a reflection of the great talent we've assembled on offense as it is an indictment on Baker. I've heard others in the media say as much. I want Baker to be great, I am resigned to the fact that it will be more of a progression than the overnight success we thought was the trajectory in 2018. I'm okay with that and willing to cut him some slack.
Watching the game yesterday, there were two players most responsible for the victory (imo)... Myles Garrett and Baker Mayfield. I'll take the "W" and move forward without the wouldas, couldas, what-ifs and yeah-but-what-happens-whens.
a couple of thoughts swish. I do not think you can average 30+ points per game with mediocre qb play. baker is showing improvement and after seeing the comparison of his first three years to some other guys who went on to be a pretty good Qb I feel pretty good about where we are going.
does anyone else find it ironic that orlovsky cited the end of games drives the past two weeks as failures on baker’s part. I may be wrong but didn’t we score on both those drives to put both games out of reach?? isn’t that the goal of the game. Since we were not behind I do not think the coach was putting winning of the game on baker’s shoulders. I think coach was pretty happy with how each drive turned out.
As I said on and earlier post I believe Baker is improving each week albeit slowly. Obviously he is in his 3rd year and not a rookie but he is on his 4th coach and at least his 3rd system. For a 3rd year QB he's as close to a rookie as you can get with all the coaches and systems. As he gets more comfortable with the system he's in now he should get better as the season progresses as he is doing. JMO
Baker has not yet shown he can win a game late with it all on the line.
He has played great at times. He has made great throws at times.
However, he has not been consistent. Some of that comes from all the changes and not being in the same offense.
The deal is. He is learning how to play for this team in the NFL. It does not come easy. Experience is a great teacher.
I don't know what Baker will become as a quarterback. Right now I am patient.
He is playing better and improving. That is a big step.
Winning is important and it means something.
This season will add experience. Winning breeds confidence.
I am happy to be where we are. I look forward to watching this team. I believe Baker will continue to improve and grow with this team.
I think Stefanski, Van Pelt, and Callahan will coach this team up.
It will be a source of tremendous satisfaction if we can keep growing as a team. Whatever, happens this year to open camp next year with this team playing in the same systems will only makes us better.
This is the best I have felt about the Browns and their future since the Bernie days.
The one thing I notice this season over seasons past, is I am not waiting for that blunder that loses the game or lead, and I have more confidence we can win.
In years past, up by 17 at the half was still not a confidence boost that we would win. In fact, in years past, it was almost a given that the opponent would make halftime adjustments and the Browns would roll over and die.
I have twice today typed out at length a few times today these exact thoughts in different ways, but then decided to not bother posting.
We just finished Game 5 in yet another regime change, and for the first time since The Return, we are 4-1..... with a team that is just learning how to play the way the new coaches want them to play. Absolutely NONE of this is settled or a final product and we are only getting flashes and glimpses of what this can become. We have a coach giving us the offense we expected under Freddie, and we have players learning to execute it, and we have coaches that actually appear to be coaching our players.
We are 4-1. We are not 4-1 DESPITE our QB. We are 4-1 WITH our QB. We are 4-1 WITH our Defense.
This thing is a real TEAM.... and it's getting better by the week.
I think people need to move on... Baker is the QB until he is not. I can't stand the Keenam references and postulations, and certainly do not want to see any more names added to that jersey.
There is one thing that cannot be overlooked. Baker has brought stability to the most important position in the game and that has eluded the Browns since the days that Tim Couch played.
Get with it, wish him well, and we hope that he improves as an NFL QB.
We are 4-1. We are not 4-1 DESPITE our QB. We are 4-1 WITH our QB. We are 4-1 WITH our Defense.
This thing is a real TEAM.... and it's getting better by the week.
Well said, prp.
This team is learning week to week and I expect to see improvement but realistic improvement. I do not expect this team to suddenly be the best team in the AFC North, but they cannot be taken as a joke either.
I look for "progress" week to week...not perfection. Win as a team and lose as a team but never stop learning.
We are 4-1. We are not 4-1 DESPITE our QB. We are 4-1 WITH our QB. We are 4-1 WITH our Defense.
This thing is a real TEAM.... and it's getting better by the week.
Well said, prp.
This team is learning week to week and I expect to see improvement but realistic improvement. I do not expect this team to suddenly be the best team in the AFC North, but they cannot be taken as a joke either.
I look for "progress" week to week...not perfection. Win as a team and lose as a team but never stop learning.
That's fine and dandy, but in the Game Day forum, Purp said we should upgrade our CB, S, DT, and LB [not sure about this last one.]
So, why is it okay to want better from some positions and not others?
Look, I pointed out the good things Baker did. I pointed out what I thought he didn't do well. It's like it's okay to criticize others, but not Baker.
I will continue to post my honest thoughts on what I see on the football field. I am not asking anyone to agree. And I will not even trash you guys for saying things like Baker is carrying this team on his shoulders or that he is the best player on the O. We all have our opinions. I trust what I see and attempts to stifle my thoughts will not work.
Yes, Mahommes and Watson came out the year before him...but so did Trubisy Yes, Lamar and Josh Allen came out the same year he did, but so did Darnold and Rosen Kyler Murray came out the year after but seems to not flash quite like he did as a rookie. Then of course there is Jones and Haskins
As it stands, he is middle of the pack on recent 1st round QB's. We shall see if he continues to progress. I certainly hope so but he does lack the mobility of a lot of those more successful young QB's.
If his play wasn't NFL starting caliber or was causing us losses, I'd be all in favor of upgrading him.
He is none of the above. He is not holding this offense back.
Furthermore, any assertions that we'd be better off with Keenum is blatant ignorance. Period. There is no scenario short of debilitating injury to Baker where we are better off with Keenum. None.
I think he is holding us back, certainly more than our corners and DTs are. But, that is just my opinion. I do not think Keenum should start. I am not ignorant, either.
I want to say this again. In past years, I have stated that Baker struggled reading post-snap coverages. I have said he holds the ball too long. I have said he has left clean pockets and runs into sacks. I was told I had an "agenda," that I "hated Baker," was "ignorant," was called a "liar," etc, etc.
Since that time, there is video and statistical evidence proving all the things I said. Yet now, people are still dismissing my thoughts as ignorant, having an agenda, writing false narratives, etc.
Look, I try and talk football. I express my opinions and many of them are intended to educate. I despise this personality crap.
And for you old-timers, you might remember similar "debates" that we had about guys like Weeden, BQ, and Couch. I am not asking anyone to agree w/me. But you would think that by now, people would abandon the "I'm just making it up" crap because I don't like him.
It's always been important to me to be honest. And again, if you look back to my first post in this thread today, I gave Baker a lot of compliments. People making this a personality contest does not change how Baker is playing.
What football do you have to offer? Your post is about me. And I did not say that the coaches don't trust him as a fact. I said it was a feeling that I had and it was something to watch for. That is an opinion and not stated as a fact.
What adds up is that most all stats need to be taken with a grain of salt...maybe a brick of salt...even the only one that matters in W-L. (I know you know that...just throwing it out there.)
I watched Mahommes hold the ball forever and leave the pocket early with regularity Sunday. (Starting FA LG Osemele was knocked out early in the game.) I wonder what that one day did to his "stats" in those regards. Note: I don't really "wonder" there...I don't care...the guy is still impressive.
Fun fact:
They have Matt Moore on their PS along with some unknown cat. Interesting that Dallas didn't go there.
Instead of 'grain of salt' I say stats are pieces of information that can help you understand something. TomAto/Tomaato...
What those grades tell me is that Baker's overall grade is being dragged down by something. Someone said earlier that his 4th quarter and second half grades aren't good. If PFF's grades weigh the end of the games heavier (like the ESPN grading), then that probably explains it.
In a more broader sense, I think portion(s) of Baker's game is dragging down his overall effectiveness this season, and to that end, I think the grade makes a little sense. We've seen his grade in certain situations (play-action, bootleg, etc) and it's very high.
Stats never tell the entire story. I don't think there is much doubt that PFF's grades are far more comprehensive than other raw stats. I posted a link earlier in how they grade QBs. Check it out for yourself and see. I am not saying they are full proof, but again, they are far more comprehensive than raw stats.
His performance seems to go down in the 3rd and 4th quarters, what is still not clear is that because we are running 1st and 2nd down, and then when he does have to pass, it tends to be 3rd and long?
4 of his 7 sacks have been in the 3nd half, and 3 of his 4 INTs.
How about having the lead in the second half? We've had the lead starting the 3rd quarter in the past 4 games, and not just the lead, we've been up 2 scores.
Up 21-13 vs the Bengals. (1 score) Up 17-7 vs the Football Team. Up 31-14 vs the Cowboys. Up 20-10 vs the Colts.
I read the gameday thread and saw everyone wanted to run run run. I'm screaming at the tv that we need to keep the throttle down.
In each of those games, we let the other team back in the game, coming within one score to lead or tie.
Keep scoring points!! Late in the games it's been run run run/pass to try to kill clock and its burned us. I'd imagine ToP in second half is skewed toward our opponent. But I don't know for sure, haven't looked it up.
"Baker holding us back" and Baker is the "weak link" is the most ridiculous thing on this board right now. It's always going to be something until Baker falters and someone can say, "I told ya so."
I hold a lot of store in the way PFF grades players performance. But I will agree that these numbers do not seem to reflect what we saw last year from Baker and what we are seeing this year from Baker.
I will mention something I have alluded to before - Baker is clearly being coached to change what he does. [1] We know they wanted to change his footwork. [2] I believe it is clear to most that he is being asked to be way more conservative with throwing the ball - not only by scheme and play calling, but with decisions on where/when to throw [3] I also believe most would agree his decision to stay, climb or run from the pocket is also an area that's being worked on . . . . As a result I think we have seen some progress in terms of games without turnovers and the appearance of Baker being a "game manager" - I think we've seen some plays where he has stayed in rather than run from the pocket ... but I also think we've seen that he's probably not playing loose or instinctively. These changes are going to take time to adopt so they are second nature.
In short the changes and coaching is going to make some aspects of his game worse before it all gets better. jmo. The things that everyone is concerned with - reading what the D does after the snap - speed of progression - has to be hampered by having to think about some of these other things. It doesn't mean he's going to definitely speed up or improve in these areas by quantum leaps. But it also means the book isn't written yet.
Precisely. If Baker was holding us back, we wouldn't have the electric plays we see in the first half of games. The player hasn't changed in the second half, the offense has.
The Browns have had leads in the games and are working to run out the clock and secure the win.
A touchdown means you give the ball back to the other team. Ask the Chargers about what scoring a Touchdown means when you then have to give the ball back to Brees.
The sample size decreases. There are few plays within 7. The Browns have been up by more than 7 for most of the 4th quarter.
Statistics like this are useful, but have to be understood in context. The games are being won early.
Lights out for Baker in the second quarter.
They call it garbage time stats when a lot a yards are put up at the end of the game when the outcome has been determined. We are not in garbage time except for the Baltimore fiasco.
The fact we have this thread as a "should we cut or keep Baker?" is absolutely preposterous. I know mgh didn't intend this, but some individuals just can't help themselves...
It feels like some people in here are ready to anoint him as the greatest QB ever as a 1st ballot HoFer...
Then we also have others in here circling the wagons saying he needs to be on a short leash and we should consider shopping him.
Some of you just don't know how to enjoy a surprise season, do you?
Would like to see some of you during the Kosar years. He's no HOF QB but he got the job done. I wish some of you could just enjoy that, but I guess some people like to argue for the sake of arguing.
I'm not sure where I stand on Baker. I know he's winning us games but he's also showing signs of needing improvement. Keep him and focus our scouting on LBs and CBs for the future. QB is truly the least of our worries.
They call it garbage time stats when a lot a yards are put up at the end of the game when the outcome has been determined. We are not in garbage time except for the Baltimore fiasco.
That's a good point ... can you imagine how quickly 4th Q stats would be trounced if we were losing but had good 4th Q stats?
We seem to go into a shell in the 2nd half. Perhaps it’s a result of being ahead by so much (can you imagine us saying this haha) .. or us not being able to adjust to their defensive changes. Who knows.
When we are scripted it seems to be when we’re at our best still
I'm not really sure what you guys are saying here. The Dallas game should've had a large stretch of garbage time, but wasn't because the Browns, by not being able to move the ball and not slowing down (much less stopping) the Cowboys, almost allowed a record-breaking comeback. The Cowboys pulled to within 3 at one point (iirc).
Not doing a good enough job of putting away games is an issue (one that hasn't bitten us yet, but still an issue). Baker must and should be able to hit his throws when we're up late in games. Defenses are focused on our run game.
I'm not saying he should be replaced or anything. I've seen improvement within his currently limited role in this offense. I'm just saying his 4th quarter performance has generally yielded more criticisms than complements.
I hope so too Bone. KS still has a lot to teach Baker. KS has done more for us on offense in the short time hes been here than anyone else in the last 20 years and it might be only the tip of the iceberg!! Baker can and should benefit greatly from him.
In the game day thread I have made the same comment a couple of times ... this week's game against Pit is going to be interesting / telling. Pit have seen him 3 times. I am sure if they will prep hard and well for Cleveland and Baker. Hoping to see more growth.
Looks like he's trying to get the ball out quicker this year, trying to read quicker, but he might not be taking enough time. There's some footwork stuff where it looks like he's trying to get back to Kansas from Oz, but my guess is he's trying to be quicker but this actually hurts him.
It's good to see he's moved beyond the 2 second throw one read from the first two seasons but now he's struggling to read everything quick enough. I think he'll continue to grow.
The key is like all young quarterbacks is can they learn and improve? None come into the league all knowing and fully complete.
Another thing is going to a stable team. Like Mahomes in KC. He played behind Smith. Got to learn their offense. Then he got to grow and learn in that offense.
Baker has a lot to learn. He is inconsistent. I have stated that numerous times. But you take the good and improve the bad. He has the potential.
Him staying in this offense and continuing to be coached up should do the trick.
I will mention something I have alluded to before - Baker is clearly being coached to change what he does. [1] We know they wanted to change his footwork. [2] I believe it is clear to most that he is being asked to be way more conservative with throwing the ball - not only by scheme and play calling, but with decisions on where/when to throw [3] I also believe most would agree his decision to stay, climb or run from the pocket is also an area that's being worked on . . . . As a result I think we have seen some progress in terms of games without turnovers and the appearance of Baker being a "game manager" - I think we've seen some plays where he has stayed in rather than run from the pocket ... but I also think we've seen that he's probably not playing loose or instinctively. These changes are going to take time to adopt so they are second nature.
In short the changes and coaching is going to make some aspects of his game worse before it all gets better. jmo. The things that everyone is concerned with - reading what the D does after the snap - speed of progression - has to be hampered by having to think about some of these other things. It doesn't mean he's going to definitely speed up or improve in these areas by quantum leaps. But it also means the book isn't written yet.
Absolutely this^
I emboldened and highlighted the part that I think a lot of people seem to be overlooking.
One thing we do know about Baker is that good or bad, he's willing to trust his coaches. In 2018 we heard almost every week from guys when asked about specific plays "the coaches told us they'd line up, or they told us it would be there, and it was". In 2019, yes Baker could have done more in terms of developing himself, but I don't believe there was anything his coaches told him he should be doing that he wasn't. This year its obvious he's been working on his footwork. Its obvious he's working on staying in and stepping up in the pocket.
To me it's obvious that he is working on re-programming himself. He's also still in the early stages of running this offense. Between deciphering the defense, staying true to the play called, fighting off those old tendencies...
Baker was successful because he had a confidence in and mastery of his knowledge base, a knowledge base that was admittedly very limited.
Provided he can remain in this system, I do think he's likely to get back to that level of confidence and looseness and swagger that we saw in '18. Will we see that this year? I don't know. My hope is that we'll see it by the end of the season but I wouldn't expect it prior to the Bye.
My inexpert prediction is that as we see Baker get more comfortable and play a little more loose, we'll also see these over throws decrease.
As with everyone else, I agree Baker has a ways to improve. Stefanski seems to have a pretty good read on his players and what they can contribute. I think he's got a good handle on how he wants to bring him along.
There are several videos out there that highlight the things I have been saying about Baker. They never get any run on here, but some off-the-cuff tweet by someone named DawgPoundDrunk or something like that ignores every other player on the team is the post that people like. LOL...………….that pretty much tells the story about objectivity.
Weren't you trying to chastise Bone the other day for "football" content?
Look - despite your claims that no-one else sees what you see, everyone (or the vast majority) see that Baker has issues and areas where he needs to improve. Like you everyone (or the vast majority) see he needs to get better at reading the D and going through his progressions ... you saying that people don't agree with that doesn't make it so, and it doesn't mean your a victim. Just me - but I think posters notice how virtually every single topic you try to bring back to some Baker deficiency or other. When others want to take into account 4 HC's in 2 1/2 years - and you use that to mock them by quoting it for WR struggles or whatever, it gets noticed. I think posters know you can't stand Baker and will remember #cantwaittillheisgone which you have never tried to rescind .... hard to claim you want the guy to succeed when you also can't wait till he is no longer a Brown. jmo
I think you pretty much nailed it highlighting that post coupled with this one here.
This is a very condescending post.
Even your attempts to promote opposing opinions belittles the opposing views. It's almost as if you're saying, "It's fine if you want to hold the wrong opinion, but I'm still correct." Stop telling everyone how they should think.
And this post isn't "making it personal." It's simply explaining to you how the rest of the board may be thinking because you obviously don't get it.
For the record, and in all aspects, Baker isn't as bad as you think.
There are several videos out there that highlight the things I have been saying about Baker. They never get any run on here, but some off-the-cuff tweet by someone named DawgPoundDrunk or something like that ignores every other player on the team is the post that people like. LOL...………….that pretty much tells the story about objectivity.
The tweet is simply facts. Obviously the team got better in the mean time as well. You obviously look up videos to support what you think too. It still just opinion all the way around. To be truly objective, you would be posting videos of differing opinions than yours too.
In the past, it hasn't mattered who was on the team, we sucked. Baker has improved that. He also has a long way to go to be a great QB, but he is taking steps to get there, and we are winning in the mean time. As a TEAM, not only because of any one or two players.
For me I don't have a problem with Vers's criticisms of Baker. I agree with them in most cases.
Unless it is about the person which he doesn't know.
It is his approach to the criticism that I have issue with.
It is like: He does this wrong, and that wrong, and he is the weak link etc. He is not an All Pro. He is not a franchise quarterback - yet.
Well guess what nobody comes in when they start out as a complete quarterback with nothing to work on.
He is starting his third year. The important thing is he has skills and potential. Now it is about improving on weaknesses. Being coached up in a system. And, winning with good enough as you learn.
Baker is coachable. He wants to be great. He is a good leader. He is accountable. He knows where he has failed. He knows what has to improve.
IMO we have to be patient with him. He will make mistakes. At the same time he will make big time plays. He will develop the needed chemistry and timing with his receivers.
This is only the first chapter in his career.
I want his career book to include bringing a championship to Cleveland.
Remember to consider the team part as well, maybe even first. Dissecting an individual has its place, at least it does for QB, because this sets the bar for performance. One metric that I believe demands consideration and it offers reliable proof is simply this: Does he make other players around him better? Do they play for him or quit on him?
BM has helped others IMO. May not show up on video, but I am certain we are not where we are without him.
Not sure anyone is interested, but here is another very good breakdown by Jake Burns. This time, it's breaking down the Indy game.
Before I post the link, I see others are speaking for me again. I don't want to get into it w/them, but a few things that come from me......not them speaking for me.
I did write a post about Baker the person. It was three years ago. LOL. Anyway, I have actually praised Baker for his behavior this year. He is doing a much better job in that area in my opinion.
I have never said that Baker can't improve. In fact, I have pointed out areas where he has improved.
I do not think he should be benched or cut.
I do not think he stinks.
My personal feelings have nothing to do w/the analysis of how others break down Baker's film. My opinions do not influence Baker being the worst ranked qb in the 4th quarter of the NFL. My opinions have no bearing on Baker holding the ball longer than any qb in the league. Etc, etc.
Anyway...………..here is the video if anyone wants to educate themselves. I'll gladly discuss what Burns is pointing out w/anyone who wants to talk football. Btw---------there are both good and bad plays, as well as some that were hard to nail down for sure. It is NOT just a negative video. At all.
I love breaking down tape. Diam and I got together years ago and he had me break down several game tapes that he had when DA was the QB and also a couple of BQ's college games. I love that stuff. I wish I had the tech knowledge to break down tape on here to demonstrate what I am seeing.
I agreed and disagreed w/some of what both guys were saying. I thought both missed some things. Burns is really good and I'm not knocking either guy.
Both guys highlighted Baker's first throw to Landry where he rolled left and threw against the grain for a long completion. It was an incredible throw. I mean...…...incredible! The arm talent jumped off the screen on that one. Not many guys make that throw. I was just wondering if anyone else saw what I saw on that play? Neither guy mentioned it when breaking down the play. Did anyone else something else on that play? Let me give you a clue since we all can't have an quick dialogue. Is that the throw you would have made if you were the qb? Or, would you have went somewhere else w/the ball?
OBJ has beat his man and is running across the middle. Baker would have to lead him, while also giving enough touch on the ball to miss the 3 underneath guys. From the way you framed the question it would seem you think that's an easier throw ... if thrown well it could be a bigger play, but I don't know if throwing the ball with touch while running to his left is Baker's forte.
I thought the throw was actually inaccurate but I'm a tough critic. He threw it slightly behind him. LOL
His best pass was the Higgins TD. He actually looked like a top 10 QB on that pass. You can see his head swivel slightly reading very quickly what was happening then threw a perfect ball to Higgins, who looked like his third or so read.
I point out the head swivel to demonstrate that Baker normally goes through his progressions with his body. None of the great QBs do that. That tells me he's too slow to recognize his first read isn't going to be there but he's already getting himself into position to throw that pass. By the time he realizes it's not happening he's not in position to throw to his next reads and using his body to get through his progressions. This is very common for Baker.
I think the very best QBs have a sense in their head before the snap what's going to be there and what isn't. It allows them to process quickly while they are dropping back and get their body in the right position to either make the first read throw or move on.
I think Baker will get better with all of this over time with consistent coaching.
Ehh...I thought it was a marvelous throw. Seriously, I thought it was a great throw. It's not one I would recommend, but damn, that was a very difficult throw and he pulled it off.
Not sure who the receiver was who was running across the formation to the left, but he broke open quicker than Landry did and I would have throw it to that dude. I know it was not as far downfield, but it was an easier and safer throw that would have netted positive yardage.
Baker Mayfield said he's feeling "sore" and was limited at Wednesday's practice as the Browns ramped up their preparations for Sunday's game at Pittsburgh.
The Browns quarterback took a hard shot during the fourth quarter of Sunday's win over Indianapolis. He was slow to get up and spent some time in the medical tent but didn't miss a snap in the 32-23 victory.
Mayfield hopes to do the same in what would be his fourth career start against the Browns' AFC North rival.
"Just one day at a time right now," Mayfield said. "Obviously, a little sore but that is why we have the rest of the week 'til game day."
Mayfield was listed with a chest injury and considered a limited participant at Wednesday's practice, the Browns' first since the team collected its fourth straight win over the Colts. He'll be re-evaluated after the practice and the team will determine how much more to put on his plate for Thursday's session.
"I think we will take it each day at a time here," Browns coach Kevin Stefanski said. "He is sore today. So, we will work through it today and then see where he is tomorrow."
During Wednesday's call with reporters, Mayfield was far more focused on how the Browns can continue their winning ways Sunday as they go for their fifth straight win. A victory over the Steelers in Pittsburgh would not only provide the Browns with a pivotal AFC North win, but also end the team's long winless streak at Heinz Field.
"Obviously, division games are always meaningful for us, but they are undefeated, we are 4-1," Mayfield said. "It is an extremely important game, but it is because it is the next one. We have to handle it that way. We are on the road in somebody else's house."
Mayfield is coming off a performance in which he shined in the first half and struggled in the second. Afterward, Mayfield lamented his two interceptions and called the game his worst of the season.
A review of the film confirmed Mayfield's instant analysis, though it was easier to stomach because it came in a winning effort.
"We are efficient when we need to be," Mayfield said. "I think that consistency can always improve. There are little things you can always improve on, but when we need to be efficient right now we have made the plays, we have made the conversions, and that is why you are seeing this streak of wins. So, we have to continue to do that but also improve on the consistency when it is not just crucial times and just help ourselves out, we do not have to make it close.
Yeah, I saw the underneath guy wide open but Baker went for the moneyball with that pass. It paid off. Definitely not the guy I would’ve thrown to if I was playing Madden but this is why he’s a NFL QB and I’m a school teacher.
I think the underneath guy would’ve got to the same place as Jarvis, but I get why Baker did it. Jarvis and OBJ have magnets in their hands.
I wonder if he can keep fixing his footwork at the season goes on. It seems footwork and reading are his next two hurdles. At least he’s gotten off of throwing to the first read at least. He’s soo close to where he will completely shatter the highest expectations we have of him.
I’m going to assume these numbers are correct. They show me that Baker is improving. Now if he can improve his 4th quarter numbers I’ll be thrilled.
One thing to keep in mind with these types of comparisons is that Baker got off to a HORRENDOUS start last season. He was throwing picks one after another, and then dialed his game way back to cut down on the turnovers. Not saying you're wrong or anything, just something to keep in mind... first half-season Baker was playing very differently than 2nd half-season Baker.
OBJ has beat his man and is running across the middle. Baker would have to lead him, while also giving enough touch on the ball to miss the 3 underneath guys. From the way you framed the question it would seem you think that's an easier throw ... if thrown well it could be a bigger play, but I don't know if throwing the ball with touch while running to his left is Baker's forte.
I wonder if Baker considers the "harder" throw the easier one, in this case. Baker has all the arm talent in the world, but he lacks consistency with touch and accuracy. I could see someone more fearful of a touch throw in between defenders, and would rather try to rip it to a sure-handed WR where the defender has less of a chance of getting their hands on it.
ESPN just teased a segment about Baker in the clutch. If you want to watch it, it's on "Get Up" and is on ESPN's main channel. They are at commercial break now.
P-Dawg, I do think Baker has improved this year. Let me talk about how.
--I think he is in better shape. --Footwork is better in the pocket. --Against Indy, he did the best job of going through his progressions since he's arrived. [my opinion.] --He's keeping his mouth shut and not talking about things that don't need to be addressed. --He's not bailing from the pocket as early as last year.
I think the coaching has helped Baker. I will also give Baker credit for getting in shape and for accepting the coaching this year.
I think he has quite a ways to go, but I have seen improvement.
OBJ has beat his man and is running across the middle. Baker would have to lead him, while also giving enough touch on the ball to miss the 3 underneath guys. From the way you framed the question it would seem you think that's an easier throw ... if thrown well it could be a bigger play, but I don't know if throwing the ball with touch while running to his left is Baker's forte.
I wonder if Baker considers the "harder" throw the easier one, in this case. Baker has all the arm talent in the world, but he lacks consistency with touch and accuracy. I could see someone more fearful of a touch throw in between defenders, and would rather try to rip it to a sure-handed WR where the defender has less of a chance of getting their hands on it.
Two things ... 1. I agree that he often lacks touch on shorter passes and seems more accurate when he can zip it. He has shown good touch sometimes, but to my mind those occasions have been on deeper balls (20+ yards) where he has to drop the ball over a defender playing a short zone to a receiver who found the soft spot in front of a safety or deep CB. jmo
2. I think this is an example of Baker reading the primary target, seeing that he is going to get open, and not looking anywhere else. He waits a beat for Landry to get the other side of the CB and then whips it in. The ball travels about 30 yards in the air and is a really great throw given Baker is throwing across to the right having sprinted to his left. He has time o set his feet and makes a great throw.
I think one of the more impressive plays is the throw to Hunt for the TD. Hunt is his 4th read - and I know the commentator suggests Baker make the 4th read from the pocket to the receiver on the whip route or whatever he called that, but the pocket is collapsing from the right. For once the pocket awareness was correct for Baker to move. If Baker Makes his 4th read from the pocket to the left and that guy turns out to be covered then Baker can't get rid of the ball instantly, he probably takes a sake. . . . so instead he rolls right and pretty much see Hunt, sees how the coverage is trailing and not looking back and makes an instant and accurate throw. We talk about speed of processing - Baker showed instant understanding of the coverage in that play/throw. jmo
In this thread, not much comment about the Browns OLine play...especially "pass protection".
One more game with the Browns OLine "attempting to protect" their QB like they did against Indy and the Browns front office will be looking to trade a draft pick to get a QB...maybe they can get Gilbert back..?
Did you have an issue with their pass pro? I thought they did great considering they had their rising star go down and they were facing a pretty stout front.
I don't see the video you're talking about at that link.
Diam had the same issue when I was texting w/him last night. Try this one. You will have to scroll down just a bit. I have to warn you that it is over an hour long.
Stop with this Oline is bad nonsense. It's about as productive and based in reality in the "let's get rid of Baker at the end of the season!" nonsense.
Baker's numbers in the 4th quarter speak for themselves, and they're not good overall.
Baker in the 4th Q with the game on the line? Different story...
Here's Baker in the 4th with the game within 7 pts:
5-8 Five completions resulted in four 1st downs and a one TD
3 INC = 2 blatent DROPS... and one ball fired at the feet of Hooper under extreme pressure (Play where he hit his hand on defenders helmet and stood there shaking his hand)
5-8 took place over 5 drives... Results? Two TDs / Two FGs / 1 punt (that nailed Indy deep and led to Safety)
It's hard to gauge whether Baker is "clutch" with such a small sample size. The biggest reason for the small sample size is a dominant ground game -- hard to be upset about that.
I definitely won't say he is clutch, but I think it's hard to say he's not when most of his 4th quarter snaps (this season) were in anything but clutch situations. It's also true that some of his bad play kept the other team "in the hunt", no argument there. Bottom line? The jury is out and I hope he thrives on the narrative and plays well when it matters most.
The jury is certainly still out, Fate. However, I think he has come up short in several other instances in his first two years when the game was on the line. He seems to get tight when things get tight.
But again, too early to say for sure. I know that you said you trust him when the game was on the line and I respect your opinion. I came up w/my "trust" comment because I didn't trust him and my senses were heightened. Not saying I am right. Like you said, we don't have a large enough sample size. It is something to monitor as we move forward.
One more thing.......where are all the guys who love screaming "agenda" in regards to the negative comments about the OL? LOL
I think I can answer the question that was posed. The OL comment was a one time thing. It was an isolated comment. We don't see it infecting thread after thread. It didn't delve into theories about trusting them and questioning several aspects of the OL.
As such I saw it as a goof. Something we didn't see repeated over and over and over again. Such isn't the case for the other topic that was implicated.
One more thing.......where are all the guys who love screaming "agenda" in regards to the negative comments about the OL? LOL
Not getting sucked in but instigating. .... consistent from a perspective of telling others what they have to post on. Same old same old ....
OL has played well and done well both run blocking and pass blocking. Baker has contributed to his own issues this season but less than last year regards running from clean pockets ... To Pit's point - Mac made a one time comment about a play that got Baker crushed. I think the OL gets a pass much like Landry gets a pass on his drops ... much like every throw and decision from Baker doesn't need to be perfect.
On ESPN this morning, they were talking about the Browns/Steelers game. There was a question about whether or not the analysts trusted Baker to win the game and/or not make mistakes. The analysts were former NFL players. They showed some of the graphics that I have been pointing out. Not one of those guys trusted Baker. It's not just me. It's not an agenda. It's a valid concern based on facts and while I am not saying it is a given, it certainly is something to monitor despite what the Baker Fan Boys have to say.
Maybe. Funny how forever ex-NFL types and reporters have been universally called "Talking Heads" - but now they are NFL Analysts and Ex-NFL players.
I don't know who said what - some are excellent and I'd listen to every word. Some are not. Merril Hoge springs to mind as an example who talked a lot of nonsense over the years.
Baker's 4th Q stats are bad and speak for themselves on one level. It's reasonable to wonder what will happen if the game requires a clutch performance from Baker to come from behind on the last drive or two .... Maybe we'll get to see - or maybe we will have a big 2 score+ lead and the play calling will be conservative and Baker will miss a throw or the receiver will drop a catchable pass and we'll win, but Baker's stats in the 4th Q will still be bad?
Concerns sure - 4-1 despite the QB? Absolutely not.
Here is some context to what I was talking about in regards to Baker and the OL.
After week 4, Baker is ranked 26th at qb by PFF.
I can't find the latest results for offensive lines by PFF, but after week 3, the Browns were ranked 3rd overall. They had allowed just 15 pressures during the three games. For blanks and giggles, compare that w/the NY Giants who people love to talk about in regards to how bad the OBJ trade was. They had allowed 46 pressures through three games and Kevin Zeitler has allowed 8 pressures all by himself.
Can't we all just acknowledge the following and move on -
1. We all know Baker is not playing great and needs to improve.
2. We all know Baker holds the ball too long and needs to improve in the 4th quarter.
3. However, we are still winning.
4. Why is this important? Because it buys time for Baker to improve and grow into the position. We cannot be in a better spot. We never develop players. Fans should be doing somersaults over the excitement that we finally have the opportunity to do so.
5. Beating him up every week over all of his weaknesses is pointless. Mentioning them in the post game thread is fine. It's an in the moment analysis of what is going on. But to continue to cite report after report after report and analyst after analyst after analyst bashing on Baker is annoying. They are not saying anything we don't already know and can see with our own eyes.
6. At this point, we want to see improvement and growth. We will know what the FO and coaching staff think about him after the season.
7. Let's enjoy this friggin season without bashing our own (except for Pendejo). We have the biggest game of the weekend tomorrow.
Over all I agree with you. I said it before the season and I'll say it again, what I'm looking for is improvement over the course of the season. That includes Baker. That includes everyone.
I would like to point out one thing that has seemed to be missing from the conversation. When a new system is introduced to a team, each player has to learn what they have to do at their position. WR's have to earn their individual routes and assignments. Each member of the OL has to learn what their responsibility is on each individual call.
A QB has to learn what every WR on the field is doing. Where they are supposed to be, which way they will break on each route. It's a lot more to learn and far more complicated. As such, I would expect it to be a longer process.
I know I will hear rumblings of how that's just an excuse. But that's usually the best someone has to offer when you present them with undeniable facts.
Baker certainly needs to improve. But his first half performances are a lot of the very reason we're winning those games. It's the very reason we have the luxury of running the ball late in games with a substantial lead.
I think it's important that when looking at a coin, you look at both sides of it rather than focus only on one side and pretend the other side does not exist.
I think Baker has shown improvement in terms of not leaving the pocket - and in each game there are examples of him going through progressions. He's cut his interceptions down dramatically.
Baker has made some bad throws - and when he misses he still seems to be missing high. He's still leaving the packet when he doesn't need to sometimes.
To the posts this morning - I've seen the PFF grade on Baker posted multiple, multiple times to show him in a bad light and where he ranks in their system. It's beating a dead horse to death under the guise of trying to crowbar it into the discussion ..... ESPN has him ranked 8th by their QBR system. I've posted that once before. I think from now on I am simply going to provide that ESPN information every time as a alternative perspective when I see the PFF grade spammed on the board.
I think last weeks game against a good D was the most interesting to date - I chose to completely ignore the Ravens game for multiple reasons, just my choice - I think the Pit game will tell us a whole lot more about the team, about Baker and about the coach. I feel pretty sure we are going to need to see the good Baker in the 4th Q of the game this Sunday ... can he do it? Will he tighten up? Having seen Baker 3 times before what with their D dial up? Can we run it? ... More than ever I think Hooper, Bryant and Njoku will be keys on O. The DL will be the key on D. jmo
Can't we all just acknowledge the following and move on -
1. We all know Baker is not playing great and needs to improve.
2. We all know Baker holds the ball too long and needs to improve in the 4th quarter.
3. However, we are still winning.
4. Why is this important? Because it buys time for Baker to improve and grow into the position. We cannot be in a better spot. We never develop players. Fans should be doing somersaults over the excitement that we finally have the opportunity to do so.
5. Beating him up every week over all of his weaknesses is pointless. Mentioning them in the post game thread is fine. It's an in the moment analysis of what is going on. But to continue to cite report after report after report and analyst after analyst after analyst bashing on Baker is annoying. They are not saying anything we don't already know and can see with our own eyes.
6. At this point, we want to see improvement and growth. We will know what the FO and coaching staff think about him after the season.
7. Let's enjoy this friggin season without bashing our own (except for Pendejo). We have the biggest game of the weekend tomorrow.
I'm enjoying the season. I think this team has enough talent to make a lot of noise in the playoffs. However, in order to do that, we need much better qb play and I will continue to honestly evaluate the position and post facts, even if one poster considers PFF numbers spam.
I'm enjoying the season. I think this team has enough talent to make a lot of noise in the playoffs. However, in order to do that, we need much better qb play and I will continue to honestly evaluate the position and post facts, even if one poster considers PFF numbers spam.
Wow - another blatant lie and attempted manipulation. By your own standards anyway.
What I said was your continued posting of the PFF numbers over and over and over and over is spam.
What I have said about PFF grades is that I regard them highly.
This is one I have a hard time with. We are winning, but that does not excuse everything. With this logic, we should not be complaining about trotting Sandejo out there every game.
This is one I have a hard time with. We are winning, but that does not excuse everything. With this logic, we should not be complaining about trotting Sandejo out there every game.
That's fair. But all the stable teams are able to develop players. Why? Because they are usually winning while those players are stumbling. That's my only point. Not to say guys can't improve. Sendejo is a just a one year player for us.
I don't think people remember how mediocre Pig Pen was his first few years. Talk about holding the ball for an eternity. But they won. A lot. And look how that turned out.
On ESPN this morning, they were talking about the Browns/Steelers game. There was a question about whether or not the analysts trusted Baker to win the game and/or not make mistakes. The analysts were former NFL players. They showed some of the graphics that I have been pointing out. Not one of those guys trusted Baker. It's not just me. It's not an agenda. It's a valid concern based on facts and while I am not saying it is a given, it certainly is something to monitor despite what the Baker Fan Boys have to say.
To me, I don't get a feel of confidence when he needs to make a play. I'm in the opinion that his missed passes that sail high, are when he is in the pocket and has defenders with their hands up. I noticed this a few weeks in a row. I think he has trouble putting loft on the ball. He still throws pretty hard and it always seems these balls are not arcing, they are missiles. I think he has a problem throwing over their hands, due to his height.
It also seems to me that when he does get hit, he becomes skittish. What bugs me, is I know there is separation by the WRs,yet his completions always seem to be when the defender seems to catch up. OBJ, and Landry both have a knack of getting separation, I think his throws are late.
As for if he can make the plays to seal a game, I am skeptical. I think he has the talent to do it, but I still think the game is too fast for him still.
I'm enjoying the season. I think this team has enough talent to make a lot of noise in the playoffs. However, in order to do that, we need much better qb play and I will continue to honestly evaluate the position and post facts, even if one poster considers PFF numbers spam.
I'm agreeing with you. Baker needs to take a step up. If he does, this team could beat anybody.
Look, when I dared to suggest that Baker needed to work on his footwork, the same folks who are bashing me now were the ones who said his footwork was fine.
When I said he struggled going through his progressions, they were the same guys bashing me back then.
When I said he didn't prepare hard enough last off-season, they bashed me for that. He later came out and said it himself.
When I said he wasn't producing in the clutch, they balked yet again.
When I said he held it too long, they blamed the OL.
They change their tunes when the evidence becomes overwhelming, but it's always the same guys who think their criticisms of me actually makes Baker a better football player. I am amazed that more people haven't seen through their facade.
You act like you're the only one who has ever criticised Baker and said those things. Hell, I was probably saying most of that before you were.
The difference is I don't take any joy in it. I don't pat myself on the back when I'm right. Because at the end of the day I'm a Browns fan and when Baker doesn't play well, it hurts the team. It actually brings me down.
Your posts come across the opposite. You appear to enjoy Baker's fails because you dislike him as a person. You get downright giddy when you find a talking head that supports your position. You post the same thing over and over and over again. Are there Baker fan boys? For sure. But mostly I think people are wondering why you take so much joy in it.
I know you will take this personally. Ultimately, you know I don't care if you do. But if you are truly confused why you are getting pushback (and your confusion is not an act), there's your answer.
I'll gladly discuss this w/you in a PM. On this thread, I would rather stick w/Baker and team rather than board personalities. PM me if you want to hear my thoughts on personalities and/or if you want to carry on w/your thoughts about my character.
I'm aware of all the personality stuff. Honestly it's not that important to me. I'm just posting tonight to pass the time during commercials of the Georgia Alabama game.
He came to a team who had not won a game. He has not missed a start once he earned the starting job.
He is in his third year. The team is 4-1.
The list of quarterbacks before Baker are on the back of some jerseys.
I will take what we have and be glad to see a player who wants to be here.
He knows he has to improve in some areas. He wants to be great. His teammates follow him. He is the leader of the team.
He has the skill set to become very good.
All that needs to happen is continue to do what he is doing. Stay with the program he is on with his head coach and the staff. Stay in one system and continue to improve inside that system.
We will see where that leads. I will remain patient. Because patience is needed when players are developing.
I am enjoying being above 500 for the first time in a long, long time. I am looking forward to see where we can go "this" year.
For those who want to dissect every stat and try to win arguments go for it. It is a discussion board.
I am just happy to have a chance at post season play instead of where this team has been for the last endless years.
You act like you're the only one who has ever criticised Baker and said those things. Hell, I was probably saying most of that before you were.
You noticed huh? I think the "Personality Stuff" isn't personality stuff at all. I think it's other posters objecting to the hypocrisy and manipulation of posts and commenting on it ... He invents things no-one ever said in a fashion that he calls other posters liars for when they make generalizations and exaggerate.
No-one ever claimed Baker was perfect or a finished product. No-one ever claimed all of Baker's struggles were entirely a bi-product of everyone else's faults. Yet that's been the claim and 'discussion' put forth by this poster. I think most posters acknowledged Baker had areas to grow and improve. But just look at this year, some posters are talking about Baker taking coaching to change his footwork, new offense, new OC and new HC, learning the playbook via Zoom meetings without pre-season; all as additional factors to consider when we look at Baker's command and knowledge of the offense early in the season. Some including myself have suggested Stefanski is pulling Baker back to basics and coaching him in essence like he's a rookie, because the "coaching" he got from Hue and Freddie was either non-existent or taught/encouraged bad QB traits. But instead of acknowledging any of these factors - someone instead chooses to mock the idea that they might have an impact.
Back to Baker ... I'm expecting a tough outing today against Pit, but I think we'll learn some more about his growth and development. Pit pass rush is legit and I expect to see Baker running when he shouldn't if they get to him ... but hoping he'll maintain more consistent play through 4 quarters. I don't think we'll be so far ahead that Baker can afford to lay another egg in the 4th Q.
Baker isn't the guy right now. I think everyone knows that.
What the disagreement (and real discussion) is about is if he can become that guy. I think he can, but how that pick-6 happened is... troubling, to put it kindly.
Look, when I dared to suggest that Baker needed to work on his footwork, the same folks who are bashing me now were the ones who said his footwork was fine.
When I said he struggled going through his progressions, they were the same guys bashing me back then.
Franchise QBs make plays when the going gets rough. Baker has not done that. His performance in the first quarter at Pittsburgh sealed the deal for me. He was under pressure, but he couldn't make a play for the life of him. The pick six was just a horrible decision, like he doesn't see anything but his receiver. That play sealed the game for Pittsburgh. I know it was early, but it took all the fight out of our team right from the get go.
When I said he didn't prepare hard enough last off-season, they bashed me for that. He later came out and said it himself.
When I said he wasn't producing in the clutch, they balked yet again.
When I said he held it too long, they blamed the OL.
They change their tunes when the evidence becomes overwhelming, but it's always the same guys who think their criticisms of me actually makes Baker a better football player. I am amazed that more people haven't seen through their facade.
If you needed to win one game during the 2020 season who would you want as your QB, Baker or Ryan Fitzpatrick? I know my answer. The fact that we’re even having this discussion is the part that is concerning. Baker was the #1 pick, he needs to be much better than he is.
You know it's really interesting...no one really likes Baker...he's somewhat of a national punching bag because of his personality and people's investment in being right that he wouldn't be any good.
So he's given all these gifts to prove those people wrong and he can't successfully use that as motivation.
I know he's not a Baker fan, but I'm sure he would rather see Baker succeed and win and prove him wrong. So I'm going to guess he's not happy.
Me personally, I've been very patient with Baker. But it's starting to wear thin after today. Unfortunately we just don't have any better options at this point. Might as well just stick with him and see if he can succeed as a game manager. I'm unsure if he can even do that at this point though. His decision making today was head scratching at best.
Lamar is an incredible football player. He's an average QB. And maybe 2 franchises total would have had the guts to do what the Ravens did to their offense to cater to him.
Lamar is an incredible football player. He's an average QB. And maybe 2 franchises total would have had the guts to do what the Ravens did to their offense to cater to him.
Allen will have the better career.
I disagree with that take but the point still stands. We took the third best QB when we had the #1 pick.
Not sure he’d succeed in Stefanski’s system. Lamar’s offense looks complicated but it runs well as it’s his wheel house. Not sure he could throw from the pocket while making the reads in this one.
Not sure he’d succeed in Stefanski’s system. Lamar’s offense looks complicated but it runs well as it’s his wheel house. Not sure he could throw from the pocket while making the reads in this one.
Imagine Lamar on the move with all that space on some of bootlegs we run. With our running game. Lamar Jackson would be probably be the second or third QB taken if the NFL had a fantasy type draft. Where would Mayfield go? 16th?
Just going through it here are the QBs I would 100% take over Mayfield for the 2020 season:
Ben Roethlisberger Lamar Jackson Josh Allen Patrick Mahomes Derek Carr DeShaun Watson Ryan Tannehill Aaron Rodgers Matthew Stafford Tom Brady Kyler Murray Russell Wilson
That makes Baker the 12th best QB at best. I didn’t include guys like Drew Brees, Jared Goff, Phillip Rivers, Ryan Fitzpatrick, Matt Ryan, and Carson Wentz but they are all also likely better.
The bottom line is that Baker needs to be much, much better. I think he can improve a little but his problems seem to be getting worse, not better. He has to play this year so we know what we have going into his fourth year.
In Baker's defense, he was heavily pressured today. He did not have enough time on many plays.
On the other hand, he put us in a bad situation w/his poor play.
Conclusion: I don't think he is a guy that will lead you to the promised land. It's great if everything is going perfectly, but he isn't the guy who can overcome obstacles, in my opinion.
Thanks for not taking the “I told all of you that I was right, see!!” approach.
I guess I’m trying to stay optimistic that he’ll find a way to read things in a more efficient and quick manner because we sure needed that today.
It is not impossible. It is also not likely. My views on Baker took a turn after listening to a Jake Burns podcast with Matt Waldman. They did not paint a rosy picture and the things they discussed have played out.
Thanks for not taking the “I told all of you that I was right, see!!” approach.
I've never been that guy. It's guys like 888 who say that over and over and over and over.
I have only said that it bothers me that when people act like my analysis of the game is so bad even after most of the things I have said have proven to be true. I would never ask anyone to agree w/me, but acting like my points have no validity is wrong. I will also say that no one on this board admits to being wrong more than I do.
I try and talk football. These stupid personal attacks that occur over and over and over again do irritate me at times. I try and ignore them, but it gets old.
In Baker's defense, he was heavily pressured today. He did not have enough time on many plays.
On the other hand, he put us in a bad situation w/his poor play.
Conclusion: I don't think he is a guy that will lead you to the promised land. It's great if everything is going perfectly, but he isn't the guy who can overcome obstacles, in my opinion.
Pitt was defending the run because they knew Baker can't beat them. Take away his first read, pressure him and defend the run.
This day and age either we have a playmaker mobile QB with extra arm talent, or you have a QB with a cannon that can drop back 5-7 steps and still make the play.
Baker is average, slow to read the field and slow to react.. its hard to be successfull like that, the moment you fall beind any good team then game is over. Our players know it...
Right. He got injured and the Chargers let him walk because they had Rivers waiting. Brees didn’t start his first season and then got really good his fourth season (third season starting). He’s been a MVP candidate basically every year since then until now.
Drew Brees was not traded. He struggled a bit early on and started to come on later under Marty. Brees credited Marty for turning his career around.
Then, another former Brown by the name Gerard Warren hit Brees in the last game of 2005. Brees suffered a shoulder injury. The Chargers had drafed Eli Manning and then made the exchange of draft picks and ended up w/Phillip Rivers a year or two earlier. The Chargers did offer Brees an incentive laden contract to remain w/the team.
Nick Saban was the HC in Miami at that time and desperately wanted Brees. The Dolphins' FO went w/Duante Culpepper instead and that led to Saban quitting because he said he was promised control of those types of decisions and realized the tam wasn't giving it to them.
The Saints then offered Brees a big contract. Something like $10 million guaranteed for the first year and over $60 million over 6 years. The Chargers would not improve their incentive laden offer and their 5 year $50 million offer.
None of those numbers were peanuts at the time. Quite the contrary. I think people have a false perception of actually went down w/Brees and why/how he changed teams.
This is all from memory, but we can look for links if y'all really want to argue who is closer to the truth. I'm betting on my memory over yours.
I heard a blurb of an article that said Stefanski stated Baker would continue to start, if healthy.
I think this is the right move. Baker is obviously not where he needs to be right now. Dude is providing evidence that he's not a fQB. He has, however, shown the ability to change/improve, so I'm putting my hope in that. All of those videos have pointed out that his footwork is a mess. That is something that can be improved, and once it does I wonder if other parts of his game start to drop into place.
He's shown before that he's a accurate QB, but right now he's not. He's shown before that he's a confident QB, but right now he's not. Something is broken that needs to be fixed.
Not sure why, but I am confident Stefanski will make the right decision with Baker, long-term. Not sure which way it'll go, but I just have a feeling that he knows what he's doing with this.
For those of you who like to be educated, the following video is a very good demonstration of how pre and post-snap reads are different and an example of what I am talking about when I say that Baker doesn't have good eyes when reading post-snap coverages.
You can watch the entire video, or skip to around the 2:15 mark to see Orlovsky break down two pre and post-snap reads and why Baker is failing in this area.
I'll just add that if you want to see a perfect example of what NOT to do, re-watch that pick6, and listen to what the talking heads say. How he didn't see the safety is a little egregious. One of the talking heads (don't remember which one, but they were in agreement and 1 of them was Romo) said it's probably that Baker saw the safety retreating pre-snap and assumed he wouldn't be there.
Similarly, on the 2nd INT Baker just kinda chucked it. That kinda play is not going to win games on any team, much less this one.
I don't know about anyone else but I didn't see a marked change once Keenum went in - he had one seam route that was wide open that I am sure Baker would have connected with also - though maybe others will disagree?
Think we saw the worst of Baker during a terrible team performance yesterday. Bitterly disappointing. I think we will see much better in the next 3 weeks and we could easily be 6-3 ... heck we might be 8-3 when we face a really good Titans team. We can argue if it's despite Baker all along the way if that happens. We can argue if Baker can only perform against moderate opposition and other fun stuff. But hopefully we will see progress with his areas of weakness.
When we play teams that don't have the ability to constantly get pressure - will Baker continue to improve in all areas he needs to? Will his confidence be shot? Will KS get find a way to elevate him. When we play Titans, Ravens and Steelers in the last 4 weeks of the season I think that might be when the book is written on Baker. Is he making others better like he seemed to his rookie season - or is he holding them back? .... I'm certainly discouraged after the Ravens and Pittsburgh games - not ready to give up on seeing Baker rise to the challenge and show more of his Rookie year ability coupled with improvement in reading D and going through progressions etc.
I don't know about anyone else but I didn't see a marked change once Keenum went in - he had one seam route that was wide open that I am sure Baker would have connected with also - though maybe others will disagree?
Think we saw the worst of Baker during a terrible team performance yesterday. Bitterly disappointing. I think we will see much better in the next 3 weeks and we could easily be 6-3 ... heck we might be 8-3 when we face a really good Titans team. We can argue if it's despite Baker all along the way if that happens. We can argue if Baker can only perform against moderate opposition and other fun stuff. But hopefully we will see progress with his areas of weakness.
When we play teams that don't have the ability to constantly get pressure - will Baker continue to improve in all areas he needs to? Will his confidence be shot? Will KS get find a way to elevate him. When we play Titans, Ravens and Steelers in the last 4 weeks of the season I think that might be when the book is written on Baker. Is he making others better like he seemed to his rookie season - or is he holding them back? .... I'm certainly discouraged after the Ravens and Pittsburgh games - not ready to give up on seeing Baker rise to the challenge and show more of his Rookie year ability coupled with improvement in reading D and going through progressions etc.
This is the worst thing you can say about a QB, than in order to be a starter you must have bad backup QB's.
And no, I do not think Case is has bad has Baker, he can do more than 1 read, and he can change the snap count. Baker was awful against PIT, he has almost no awareness and he is very slow to react. He's backup material at most, not a starter in this league, game is too fast for him.
That wasn't my point. But that's fine if you want to take it that way.
It looked like your point, looked like you were dissing Case to make a point for Baker...
I'm almost sure the Stefanski game plan for CK is much better than what he has to do for Mayfield, because CK is a better QB than Baker, and we are dumming down our offense because Baker is a very limited QB.
He is slow,he has no awareness, and clearly players don't believe in him, he is making everybody worst, you can see that on how our D played after the Int, its was like game over, lets try not to get injured because our QB sucks, and there is no point on playing this game to the end.
In the end its not the kid's fault we picked him number one... but its time to move on.
Baker will need to improve and play better against Pittsburgh. They've had a strong defense, with very few short drop offs, for a very long time. They're in our division. Playing poorly against a good D only works as an excuse for so long. Baltimore and Pittsburgh are simply teams we have to beat. We're in a very good division, and that's not going to change.
IMO, the "they were getting pressure" is a lame excuse (that's how I hear it anyway).
... and before anyone says it, yes... the whole team played poorly. I'd argue the Oline was a bigger disappointment than Baker, but this is the Baker thread, though.
Baker will need to improve and play better against Pittsburgh. They've had a strong defense, with very few short drop offs, for a very long time. They're in our division. Playing poorly against a good D only works as an excuse for so long. Baltimore and Pittsburgh are simply teams we have to beat. We're in a very good division, and that's not going to change.
IMO, the "they were getting pressure" is a lame excuse (that's how I hear it anyway).
... and before anyone says it, yes... the whole team played poorly. I'd argue the Oline was a bigger disappointment than Baker, but this is the Baker thread, though.
No they don't have a superstar D, Baker made it easy... just go back and look at the plays and see how many plays did Baker not do... Stefankski called a good game, but Baker can't see the field and he is too slow to react.
Pit can't do that with almost any other QB in the league. D's only have to play half the field, they can stack the box defend the run and wait for Baker to make a mistake... Yes he is that bad.
Ben looked like Super Bowl Ben yesterday. The Steelers are playing in championship form right now and we (the whole team) were exposed as still not there.
Umm, didn't Pitt come in as the #1 rated defense? I'm not making excuses for Baker, but Pitt absolutely DOES have a very strong D. They have Watt as part of a very strong front, and Fitz on the back end with 'glue' guys throughout in a well-established scheme.
Keenum is a proven starting QB in the NFL, You can argue he was average. He's not a bad QB and coming in when a team has NOT game planned for you is normally an advantage. You just implied that yourself that Keenum is better than Baker. My point was we put a different QB in there and the results looked the same. It wasn't that Keenum is bad so Baker should start.
You claiming KS called a good game and this was all or mostly on Baker simply does not stack up to what we watched yesterday. You made your mind up on Baker a long long time ago ... and maybe you'll end up being right. But you don't get to re-write what most of us witnessed to support your claim.
I have a feeling Indy's overall rank dropped after we beat them.
I just looked at ESPN's stats. Pitt is #2 defense in yards/game, pts/game, and rushing/game (with different teams beating them in those categories). Interestingly, they're further down in passing/game.
Not sure if anyone is going to comment on the video I posted earlier this morning, but I am going to comment on it. The video was a great example of how a defense can give one look pre-snap and then change it post-snap. It was very obvious that Baker was confused on those plays and did not make the right reads. This has been something that I have seen over and over.
The bad part is that I am not sure if it is correctable. We've seen other qbs who were recent high draft choices lose their jobs for pretty much the same reason.
The Browns don't have a lot of options right now because I don't think Case Keenum is the answer. But folks are wondering aloud if Baker is losing -- or going to lose-- his teammates, especially the skill guys who are dependent upon him to get them the ball.
For those of you who like to be educated, the following video is a very good demonstration of how pre and post-snap reads are different and an example of what I am talking about when I say that Baker doesn't have good eyes when reading post-snap coverages.
You can watch the entire video, or skip to around the 2:15 mark to see Orlovsky break down two pre and post-snap reads and why Baker is failing in this area.
Great video with an excellent breakdown of Baker's flaws. If he cannot read and react to a Defense at this point in his career, it is going to be hard to say that he ever will be able to.
Baker looked like a QB who had not practiced for a week. I question whether the Browns made a wise decision to start him.
Keenum showed a quick release, getting rid of the ball quickly..BUT, once the Steelers realized the short passing scheme, they adjusted and shut down. Don't know if Keenum has the arm to throw deep, but the Browns might have been better off to start a healthy Keenum.
The flaws that the talent evaluators said Baker had coming out of college are coming to fruition. Whether other posters on this board like him or not Vers has been talking about this for a long time and I now feel he is right. He doesn't see the field, he has trouble with pre and post snap reads, has trouble going through his progressions and has trouble with pressure. I don't know how much of this can be corrected. I feel we finally have a really good HC and coaching staff along with top end talent on O. Our QB at this time I feel is holding us back. Its too early at this time but we should be concerned and this may have to be addressed at the end of the season.
My only real "argument" (if you can even call it an argument), to what vers has been saying is if Baker will ever be able to improve enough.
While it's not the easiest thing to pick up on to the lay person, vers (and others) have pointed out Baker's flaws plenty of times prove that they're very real and serious. I don't think too many on here can defend his poor play and his role when our offense isn't clicking.
What I (and many others, I suspect) argue is if Baker can ever "get it". Can these issues be fixed/taught/learned? Vers has responded many many times that pre-snap reads can be learned via intense film study, but post-snap reads cannot (it's tied to the brain's processing power such that some brains can handle it, and some can't). I'm a newby to the nitty gritty details of football (which is where the screen name comes from), and saying someone can't do/learn something like this is what I can't wrap my brain around. This area of Baker's game is something that many college programs don't teach young QBs. If Baker hasn't been asked to do this at an advanced level until he got to the NFL, how can we be so sure he CAN'T? That's really the crux of my argument. Also, Baker has shown brief glimpses of going through reads. So it's not that it's impossible for him, he's just extremely inconsistent.
I'll say it this way. Tonight, I'm going to go back and try to find what they were saying about Josh Allen prior to this year. I'm not disagreeing with what they're saying about Baker when they're breaking down film, but the conclusions "who would take this guy over Josh Allen", as if that's some sort of deep argument.
They sound like 'hot-take' machines. Wow... so Josh Allen is playing better right now than Baker Mayfield. Thanks for the blowing my mind, Rex. You think they were saying the same thing back when Baker was setting the rookie TD record and Allen looked like a bust?
I take these guys seriously (Rex Ryan, maybe not so much), but sometimes they make it really hard to do so.
If by your third year you don't seem to be improving in your post snap reads, the odds are you never will. Impossible? No. Highly unlikely? Yes.
It's almost a natural reaction, response type thing. It's like speed processing a situation. It's a very rare attribute to find. Which is why finding someone with the physical ability to play NFL QB combined with the mental processing ability to react so quickly to an NFL defense post snap makes it so rare. The NFL has adapted their defenses to disguising what they plan to do post snap that often time your pre snap reads mean very little. That's why as NFL D's have adapted, it makes those post snap reads even more critical than ever.
IMO, the best QB I've ever seen at doing this was Peyton Manning in his prime. I'm sure there are others. It's just with the limited protection he was given, his career was a work of art.
Just a stray thought: might it be that Baker has a harder time against 3-4 defenses? Both Bal and Pitt run them, and they seem to eat his lunch.
We played well against the 4-3s that Wash, Dal, Cin, and Ind had.
I think it is less to do with the scheme than the amount of pressure he is under, how fast that pressure arrives, and how consistent the pressure is.
Ravens and Pit seemed to put Baker under a lot of pressure - quickly - often ... while ALSO having good coverage on the receivers for the most part.
Someone mentioned the play call (Eo in the 'What I saw' thread) that having been under pressure so much KS said before the half he needed to help Baker - then proceeded to call a long developing screen pass where Baker was under pressure before he was even looking up for a receiver.
I think most QB's would struggle with the pressure Baker was under Sunday and how badly everything the OL did they got bullied and thrown around like rag dolls - look at Rogers yesterday too. And he most definitely had moments when he could have made better plays and a better QB or a more seasoned QB would have made a play - but it would not have changed the outcome of the game. Baker didn't lose this game it was a team loss.
It's going to be a hell of a challenge to figure out *if* Baker does play well against the weaker teams and then struggles again vs Pit, Balti, Tenn. . . . but I'm hopeful that by the end of the season we might still be playing meaningful games while we see if Baker can 'get it'.
As for the pre-post read defenses .... It's not rocket science. All teams try to disguise what they are doing - when they blitz they try to hide who the extra blitzer is. With coverages it's the same thing: make it look like zone when it's man coverage and vice versa. Make it look like it's 2 deep safeties when it's cover 1 or cover 3. There's a wide range of coverages that can look like one thing pre-snap and something different post snap, often the initial movement of the safeties is the indicator. Some teams do it a lot always, some teams do it to scheme against a specific or inexperienced QB. I think it's safe to say every team from here to the end of the season will be doing it a LOT. We should have the opportunity to see how Baker progresses.
I am also sure that no small part of his difficulties is the same thing we have done to most young players who have walked through those doors in Berea: Year 1 coach and system is not like year 2 coach and system which is unlike year 3 coach and system.
I would wager that no team has ruined more players who started out with a ton of promise, with their roller coaster approach, than we have.
CLEVELAND, Ohio – It was a rough Sunday for Baker Mayfield and the Browns, who lost to the Pittsburgh Steelers 38 to 7. It may be an even rougher Monday for Mayfield as the nation’s sports pundits call for him to be benched.
It didn’t take long for ESPN’s “Get Up!” morning show to dive right into the struggles of Baker Mayfield, who threw two first-half interceptions during Sunday’s game.
“Last year, the Cleveland Browns tried to build their house on the foundation that was Baker Mayfield,” said ESPN analyst and former Steeler Ryan Clark said Monday morning. “This year they tried a new thing. They said we’re going to build a house around Baker Mayfield to protect him. And what he’s done already is lit the fire that’s going to burn the house down. You can’t win with a quarterback who plays football this way.”
Mayfield came into Sunday’s game with bruised ribs. The Browns' two star wide receivers – Odell Beckham Jr. and Jarvis Landry – were also hurting during the week. However, Clark insists Mayfield’s mistakes on Sunday are a clear indication he’s not the guy Cleveland thought he was when they drafted him.
“This team is in trouble,” Clark continued. “Not necessarily in trouble that they won’t win games or that they won’t fight for a wild card spot. When you draft a guy No. 1 overall, that says I believe this guy is our franchise guy who can take us to the promised land. Baker Mayfield cannot. He is no Moses. They are no Israelites. They will be stuck and enslaved to who he is for a long time if he remains the quarterback.”
Clark wasn’t alone in his criticism. Former NFL head coach Rex Ryan, who has been a critic of Mayfield’s for a while of now, agreed.
“Everyone thinks it’s a personal thing with me and Baker. It’s not,” Ryan insisted. “I have a personal thing with every scout that said this was Drew Brees…I knew he wasn’t Drew Brees. Baker Mayfield doesn’t have that ability. When it’s cloudy, he’s just an average guy at best.”
How much do you think he worked on improving this last season? Or even his first season?
They're working on his footwork right now.
They ALWAYS work on that. Please don't pretend that a player can "only work on one thing at a time". If that were the case, he could never work on learning anew playbook while he was trying to improve his footwork.
Every NFL HC knows for a QB to succeed he has to be able to process a defense post snap. But as I said, there's only so much you can teach a QB about that. A lot of it is the speed at which you can do it. That can't be taught.
The system you are playing in has nothing to do with being able to read what and how a defense is reacting and deploying its defense in reaction to it.
Learning what you are supposed to be doing has nothing to do with being able to see what they are doing.
This is why I hate to even get into discussing this topic.
It just seems like the way they're attacking his footwork now (combined with Baker's attitude going into last year) makes it seem like he's really only addressing this for the first time now.
I think your argument is fair and genuine. I do want to clarify something, though.
I am not saying he "can't get it" in regards to being good at seeing the field and reading post-snap coverages. I'm saying it's not looking good.
I am sure that you have heard the phrase that "the game is slowing down for him." That phrase is used for a few things, but one of them is seeing the field and reading post-snap coverages. Thus, it is NOT impossible. It's just that he shouldn't be making some of the reads he is right now. Like Orlovsky said, those were two "elementary reads." He should not be so confused. He is predetermining throws.
He has some other issues, too. His pocket presence is poor. He is telegraphing the snap count. He isn't making sight adjustments or recognizing where the blitz is coming from pre-snap, Etc. However, I think he can improve in those areas and has already improved in a couple of them. It's that damn processing information accurately and quickly that is a real b....!
One more thing.........don't worry about the hot air that Rex Ryan and some others are blowing. Just concentrate on the film breakdown like the two examples that Orlovsky provided this morning. Ignore the blowhard statements by some that are meant to be hot takes. Concentrate on the actual plays w/show the routes, coverages, options, etc. That's where you can learn a lot. You might not have experience in those things and most people don't, but you are an intelligent guy who tries to learn and give honest assessments. And if you ever watch the Burns marathon that I provided earlier this week, do it in segments. It's pretty dry even for a guy like me who loves that stuff.
Sadly, as is often your M.O., I said none of those things. I'm simply looking at something he hasn't thus far managed to do well if hardly at all. It seems you're the one with the issue here.
Renner: It's time to panic about Cleveland Browns QB Baker Mayfield By Michael Renner Oct 19, 2020
For the last year and a half, I’ve repeated one question almost instinctively when asked about Cleveland Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield: “Who at the quarterback position peaked in their first year?”
Outside of injury-addled quarterbacks like Robert Griffin III, you’d be hard-pressed to find many more examples. But after a year and a half of not only not progressing but also regressing in key aspects of the position, it’s time to add Mayfield as an answer to that question.
While Browns head coach Kevin Stefanski insisted that Mayfield’s benching Sunday was purely for health reasons after the quarterback entered the game with a chest injury, that same injury can’t be used as an excuse for his disastrous performance. That’s because — as we’ve seen all season — Mayfield’s issues extend far beyond getting the ball from Point A to Point B (and even that hasn’t been a given).
In the words of PFF’s Seth Galina, a former quarterback coach in his own right, “the confident quarterback we saw in 2018 no longer exists.”
This is evident in a number of different ways. It’s in his shaky pocket presence where he went from being charged only 15 pressures as a rookie to 32 last season and is now on pace for even more than that this year. You can also see it in him holding the ball more, with his average time to throw climbing from 2.66 seconds as a rookie to 2.74 in 2019 to 3.08 in 2020. However, nothing exemplifies his waning confidence more than his performance down the field on traditional dropback passes. If you take away play action, here are Mayfield’s stats in each year of his career on passes thrown 10 or more yards downfield.
While it’s a small fraction of his total number of dropbacks, it’s almost wholly indicative of his decline. He’s not only been erring more on those throws, but he’s also not even finding those opportunities as frequently.
The last row in the table above is far and away the most concerning. His 144 10-plus-yard pass attempts as a rookie were the fifth-most in the NFL — and he didn’t even start the whole season. That number was the same as Patrick Mahomes, and the quarterbacks ahead of him were Ben Roethlisberger, Andrew Luck and Philip Rivers. And that's one of the many reasons why he impressed as a rookie — being able to find opportunities down the field is a tenet of quality quarterback play.
As Galina so eloquently said, though, that guy is gone. His 35 such attempts this season ranks 21st in the NFL. Of quarterbacks who have played six games already this season, only Jared Goff has fewer.
Rarely do you do any significant damage when you drastically trail in games or when you are in end-of-half situations. The needle also doesn't move all that much when you run RPO, play-action and screen passes. You have to be able to attack downfield on dropback concepts, and Mayfield has been nothing short of a liability when asked to do so.
So what’s the “fix” for the former No. 1 overall pick? The answer to that would be better answered by Mayfield, Stefanski or a sports psychologist. However, it doesn’t take the latter to realize that the problem with Mayfield's play over the last year and a half is just as mental as it is physical.
While the Browns' four-game winning streak masked Mayfield’s 66.3 passing grade over that span, it’s impossible to mask where Mayfield has struggled when the Browns have to play catchup. If that doesn’t change soon, the Browns can’t be considered serious contenders in the AFC.
Baker’s play yesterday was very sobering. He still gets the season (unless he has a complete meltdown game against a bad opponent) but based on the sample size growing larger it’s becoming clearer that, while he can still improve, he is proving to be limited in key areas that will hold the team back.
I still think he’s the best Browns QB to do it over 2+ seasons since 99 but he is not improving in his defense recognition or ability to get through progressions. He displays happy feet in the pocket.
He can become a decent QB. But that’s not the standard we’re looking for.
This is for those of you who like to analyze the game. I think teams might start blitzing the hell out of Baker. There are stats out there that tell how QBs fare against the blitz. Guys like Mahomes, Rodgers, Josh Allen, Fitz, etc have put up good numbers vs the blitz this year. The key is to recognize it pre-snap and then check to a quick pass that exploits the vacated area where the blitz originated from.
I tried to find all the rankings, but could not find them. Maybe someone will post the complete league rankings vs the blitz. I have a feeling Baker's rating isn't very good vs the blitz this year. After yesterday's game, I wonder if teams will try and blitz Baker a lot and force him into mistakes and sacks?
This is for those of you who like to analyze the game. I think teams might start blitzing the hell out of Baker. There are stats out there that tell how QBs fare against the blitz. Guys like Mahomes, Rodgers, Josh Allen, Fitz, etc have put up good numbers vs the blitz this year. The key is to recognize it pre-snap and then check to a quick pass that exploits the vacated area where the blitz originated from.
I tried to find all the rankings, but could not find them. Maybe someone will post the complete league rankings vs the blitz. I have a feeling Baker's rating isn't very good vs the blitz this year. After yesterday's game, I wonder if teams will try and blitz Baker a lot and force him into mistakes and sacks?
It's probably something to watch for.
Run blitzes to start, then outside blitzes. Take the run away and jam up the middle to block his vision, get their arms up, and let the ends do their damage. That’s how I would do it.
Give the kid time. Its his fourth offense in three seasons. San Diego wrote off drew brees as a bust and we all know how big of a mistake that was. Here is a LINK comparing bakers first three seasons to both brees and farve.
Give the kid time. Its his fourth offense in three seasons. San Diego wrote off drew brees as a bust and we all know how big of a mistake that was. Here is a LINK comparing bakers first three seasons to both brees and farve.
Give the kid time. Its his fourth offense in three seasons. San Diego wrote off drew brees as a bust and we all know how big of a mistake that was. Here is a LINK comparing bakers first three seasons to both brees and farve.
Stop comparing Baker’s stats to QBs from 30 years ago. The NFL is totally different.
Lol brees is still playing, and farve retired 10 years ago both have been through the changes in the nfl. Nice try though. Im assuming after looking at how similar the stats were you had no argument so instead you say stop comparing him to qbs from 30 years ago even though brees hasnt been in the nfl 30 years and is still playing lol.
Renner: It's time to panic about Cleveland Browns QB Baker Mayfield By Michael Renner Oct 19, 2020
For the last year and a half, I’ve repeated one question almost instinctively when asked about Cleveland Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield: “Who at the quarterback position peaked in their first year?”
Outside of injury-addled quarterbacks like Robert Griffin III, you’d be hard-pressed to find many more examples. But after a year and a half of not only not progressing but also regressing in key aspects of the position, it’s time to add Mayfield as an answer to that question.
While Browns head coach Kevin Stefanski insisted that Mayfield’s benching Sunday was purely for health reasons after the quarterback entered the game with a chest injury, that same injury can’t be used as an excuse for his disastrous performance. That’s because — as we’ve seen all season — Mayfield’s issues extend far beyond getting the ball from Point A to Point B (and even that hasn’t been a given).
In the words of PFF’s Seth Galina, a former quarterback coach in his own right, “the confident quarterback we saw in 2018 no longer exists.”
This is evident in a number of different ways. It’s in his shaky pocket presence where he went from being charged only 15 pressures as a rookie to 32 last season and is now on pace for even more than that this year. You can also see it in him holding the ball more, with his average time to throw climbing from 2.66 seconds as a rookie to 2.74 in 2019 to 3.08 in 2020. However, nothing exemplifies his waning confidence more than his performance down the field on traditional dropback passes. If you take away play action, here are Mayfield’s stats in each year of his career on passes thrown 10 or more yards downfield.
While it’s a small fraction of his total number of dropbacks, it’s almost wholly indicative of his decline. He’s not only been erring more on those throws, but he’s also not even finding those opportunities as frequently.
The last row in the table above is far and away the most concerning. His 144 10-plus-yard pass attempts as a rookie were the fifth-most in the NFL — and he didn’t even start the whole season. That number was the same as Patrick Mahomes, and the quarterbacks ahead of him were Ben Roethlisberger, Andrew Luck and Philip Rivers. And that's one of the many reasons why he impressed as a rookie — being able to find opportunities down the field is a tenet of quality quarterback play.
As Galina so eloquently said, though, that guy is gone. His 35 such attempts this season ranks 21st in the NFL. Of quarterbacks who have played six games already this season, only Jared Goff has fewer.
Rarely do you do any significant damage when you drastically trail in games or when you are in end-of-half situations. The needle also doesn't move all that much when you run RPO, play-action and screen passes. You have to be able to attack downfield on dropback concepts, and Mayfield has been nothing short of a liability when asked to do so.
So what’s the “fix” for the former No. 1 overall pick? The answer to that would be better answered by Mayfield, Stefanski or a sports psychologist. However, it doesn’t take the latter to realize that the problem with Mayfield's play over the last year and a half is just as mental as it is physical.
While the Browns' four-game winning streak masked Mayfield’s 66.3 passing grade over that span, it’s impossible to mask where Mayfield has struggled when the Browns have to play catchup. If that doesn’t change soon, the Browns can’t be considered serious contenders in the AFC.
People need to realize this loss is a team loss, from the coaches on down.
You cant lay it on any one person and crucify them.
Baker isnt perfect, but he is learning and growing.
Agreed. In the pre-game thread I said I thought one of the keys to the game was Baker was going to have to make some throws early which he wasn't successful at. But I didn't expect he would have had to compensate for how much the O Line was getting beat up or Hunt not running how we know Hunt can run. Stefanski's offense travelled at one speed. I appreciate that he didn't go one dimensional so soon but I would love to have seen at 10-0 an up tempo, quick hit series or two.
Your last point is one that I thought about during the game last Sunday .. if blitzes always were effective, every DC would use them every play. But they’re a gamble ... they can backfire severely.
HOWEVER, that’s only with QBs who can exploit them and sit in the pocket decisively.
It’s like pressing in basketball ... it can be your best friend or your worst enemy.
Baker literally never beats the blitz. He panics and can’t make his reads, whether that’s due to his height or lack of awareness or whatever.
In that draft, I first fell in love with Josh Allen when he threw a ball 80 yards. Everyone said he was inaccurate and that could not be fixed. People said Rosen was the most “pro ready.” Darnold had huge upside, but was young. Lamar Jackson was an afterthought. By draft day, I was all in on Baker for his moxie and leadership. How can it be that guys like Gardner Minshew are so much better than the overall No. 1? And how is it that the Ravens always nail the draft and we always blow it?
Baker is now ranked 31st on PFF's rankings. He is ahead of only Jeff Driskel, Nick Mullens, Drew Lock, D'Wayne Haskins, and Joe Flacco.
He is ranked 17th according to ESPN's QBR.
Fitz is ranked 16th by PFF and is 7th according to ESPN's QBR.
I was surprised Miami made the switch to Tua. Fitz has been playing well and is doing very well against the blitz. The team has won 2 straight and are in a weak division. I imagine the performance of Herbert w/the Chargers might have had something to do w/it.
I am not suggesting we trade for Fitz even though I think he would give us a better chance to win this year. His teammates absolutely love the guy. Always have. I also don't think Miami would trade him. He is a team-first guy who will help Tua. I saw him cheering like crazy for Tua when the latter completed a pass last Sunday. I also think the Dolphins would want Fitz around given Tua's injury history.
I think it's perfectly rational and reasonable to say that Baker:
[1] clearly has issues reading the D pre-snap when the D tries to confuse him - that he needs to continue to show and speed up going thru progressions when his 1st option is covered - needs to continue to get better at moving the safeties with his eyes - continue the pocket awareness and stop leaving clean pockets
[2] At the same time, also say that against Pit/Ravens, he wasn't given a chance to succeed because the whole team was totally overmatched. Personally I think there are few QB's that would have had success and none would have got the win - just look at Rogers when he was also put under similar pressure. AND - Acknowledge he's not been put into a stable situation to succeed AND he's not been coached in a stable environment give him a chance to reach his full potential.
He's shown flashes of elite arm talent. He's shown consistent flaws. I'm not yet prepared to anoint him a bust and I am not going to say all his issues are coachable - there is a certain amount of innate mental ability to process the game and read what's happening. What we don't know is with a consistent environment and team around him, what is his ceiling regards the mental aspect of the game?
I mentioned elsewhere - the NFL has seen the blueprint on how to beat Baker with pressure and disguised coverages .... we should get ample opportunity to see if he can get better because every defense we face should be doing both things to the best of their ability for the remainder of the year.
Tua got named the starter for the Dolphins, maybe we can trade for Fitzpatrick to upgrade the QB position. . .
This would depend heavily on your viewpoint on Fitzpatrick and Baker - I'd argue that Fitzpatrick has a known ceiling and he is no franchise QB. Franchise QB's don't get traded for 1.
I think Baker's ceiling and ability to be a franchise QB are in question but not yet conclusive.
I'd see absolutely zero value in making that trade regardless if today you think Fitz is a better QB than Baker.
Someone mentioned Dak, and I gotta say... if we're going to play that game, Dak is a guy that is at least somewhere in the vicinity of possible in terms of getting him in the building.
Oober let me tell you Dak could do here what he is doing in Dallas. We have as much firepower on O as they do only with better coaching. With Dak here we could rival KC as the best O in football.
And how does this compare to other NFL QB's
I miss the 2018 Wr's They really had something.
.... consistent from a perspective of telling others what they have to post on. Same old same old .... 
Sad because we now have the talent on O and good coaching.