I've mentioned before, and it got ignored for the most part, about the economic issues that allow groups like ISIS to thrive.

So think about this: We have all these backwood Christian militia groups who train and such and have military grade weapons.

If the unemployment rate was 30-40 percent here in America, with the government being a joke, how many versions of ISIS, Taliban, and Al-Queda would we have right here in the States?

Think about it.

We are not like the Middle East. Yes, we have our own issues and threats to deal with, but the Middle East is and has been a breeding ground for hatred for as long as I can remember.

They hate us, they hate each other and pretty much everything. They're born and raised like that so groups like ISIS really are not a shock that they not only gain power but thrive too.

In addition, I'm not sure we, as a government or people, would allow such a group to form and stay at a functioning level. Especially if they hated and targeted Muslims, Obama would send the entire army to dispose of them.

The Middle East terrorists groups vs the US militias are different animals.

First and foremost are the groups they are preying on. ISIS is preying on defenseless people, US militias would have to contend with a much stronger enemy, and their agendas would not gain much strength before vigilante forces would pop-up to stop them, alongside law enforcement and the military.

imma need you guys to look at my post, and think.

if the unemployment rate was 30-40 percent, y'all honestly think we wouldn't have the same versions over here?

at that point, our government would be just a broken as theirs. just think.

and think of this: Dawg_LB, if the middle east was entirely like that, then how come countries like Kuwait, UAE, and Bahrian, who buy the way slaughter our currency value, have almost no terrorist problems?

unemployment rate during the great depression was 25% at one time, 1933 I think, and we didn't have a bunch of savages create groups to go kill innocent people.

Just saying. I don't think there is much thought for this thread, America and the Middle East just two totally different entities,pointless to try to compare the what-ifs between them. There's a reason I'll never visit that land.

Why are the Muslim people slaughtering Christians all over the world?
I just read where they throw the Christians out of those boats headed for Italy, letting them drown in the Mediterranean. These aren't radicals, its everyday Muslims.

Guess the Christian Militias should save their ammo for the day ISIS comes here since they are already spreading over the world like wild fire.

You got two responses that you were asking for...and because they didn't agree with you, you tell the posters "to think". Really? They demonstrated that they DID think...just not what you wanted to hear/read.

And you wonder why you didn't get responses to an earlier post.

So are you going to answer the question, or act like Kanye and defend Beyoncé, even though those two posters are perfectly capable of defending themselves.

The reason why I say this is because we haven't had an eventt that put people's back against the walls like in Iraq.

We don't know what Americans put in that same situation would do, in a massive context like in Iraq.

We don't have to worry about heads being cut off if you disagree with someone, because our economy and government is stable enough to actually protect rights, unlike those countries in the Middle East.

That's why I said think.

Oh I see now, The economy is the reason Muslims crucify children and behead Christians. The reason we keep arresting American Muslims who are plotting destruction is because of the economy too. I wasn't thinking.

No. If things fell apart in America and the Christian Militias rose up as a force, we regular Christians would borrow from the Muslims and call them Radical Christians, thus washing our hands of all the things they do.

I didn't say it was the sole reason.

But it's he main reason why that region is jacked up.

Look around the world. The majority of countries that are completely screwed up and have he absolute worst economies.

Swish, the problem is that you are asking about 4 different questions rolled into one.

First you say this...


Then you go on to reference if our back was against the wall like Iraq...

So what do you want to know? If our economy was a joke and unemployment was high would these militias go blow up planes and buildings in other countries while yelling "Praise Jesus"? No, I seriously doubt we would.

If we had an invading/occupying force in our country like Iraq would they use guerrilla tactics to fight back against the invaders? Yes, I think they definitely would.

If our economy, and by default the world economy, was in the crapper do I think they would start killing innocent people? Not on a large scale, though there might be some incidences.

If our economy, and by default the world economy, was in the crapper do I think they might start attacking the government? Yea, I think that is much more likely.

If our economy was in the crapper and it was "every man for himself" do I think the thugs and the gang bangers would exploit every opportunity to loot, steal and destroy? Yea, oh wait, they do that now.

If any of this happened, do I think the government would respond with incredible force against it's own people, labeling them as terrorists and using it as a reason to clamp down much farther on civil rights? I have no doubt they would.

I guess the bigger question is that if we reached epic great depression levels, with a thin layer of extremely wealthy at the top, everybody else struggling, the government unable to do anything about it except stepping in to take more and more of your rights away and an uprising against the government occurred.... which side would you be on?

I think one of the most significant reasons ISIS thrives is the difference in culture.

The middle east has a strong patriarchal social structure that is used to justify the actions taken.

it would be difficult for any fundamentalist group here in the west to seize control like ISIS. It wouldn't be accepted.

Jesus often taught to the poorest of the poor in his earthly ministry. He never taught them to commit violence against anyone, under any circumstances. He never said to steal what belongs to others if you are in need.

That is a major difference between the Bible and the Koran. In Jesus' earthly ministry, He never preached violence under any circumstances. (even when those He taught often wanted Him to do so, specifically revolt and war against Rome) Jesus taught that material possessions on this earth are nowhere near as important as the treasures of heaven.

Now the Koran does take a far more militaristic approach to earthly matters. It calls for beheading and amputation of non-believers under certain circumstances ...... and the religion itself commands Muslim to go to war against Muslim so that the strongest will rule.

So, Christians and Muslims take a completely different approach to such circumstances, if they truly follow their respective holy books.

Sorry but I don't buy the biblical difference.

Historically Christians have been everything but peaceful. That excuses isn't going to fly.

Even at its base, there's not too much of a difference. But even if we roll with that, at the end of the day, man dictates how they view the bible or Koran.

Just because you call yourself s christian doesn't mean anything. Didn't stop Yall from doing some heinous acts, in the name of Christianity, which is the same thing these Muslims are doing.

Anyways, I still believe economy plays the major roll in that.

Other countries I listed are just as Muslim, yet don't have the terrorist problem since their rich.

Some Christians have definitely been violent, as have some (_______________) (fill in the blank of almost any group) Some Christians have been hateful. Some have been racist. Some have been almost anything. I don't know that those who can be hateful or racist can said to truly be following the teachings of Jesus Christ. The same cannot be said of violent Muslims though. They do follow the teachings of their holy book, the Koran.

I am curious as to what examples you would offer as to Christians being violent.

Salem witch trials come to mind.

The inquisition is another good one.

KKK I is another, but who's counting.

The reason I lump Christians together on this board is because here on DT, Yall have a habit of lumpi Muslims together.

I don't do that on Facebook. But here, I do it because Yall are massive hypocrites sometimes.

NO no no, Those were "Radical Christians" not like the peace loving Christians.

You must get off your high horse.

Do the KKK truly follow the teachings of Christ, or do they try to adhere to the image of Christianity to try and make themselves appear to be something they are not?

In their eyes they were.

Same thing ISIS is doing.

Our country got passed that thankfully. But we have a stable economy and government to thank for that.

Iraq does not have such luxuries.

When 2 of your examples are from over 400 years ago, that says something.

I agree that the Salem Witch Trials were an abomination. This is another case where Christianity was professed, but not really followed. The actions carried out by the religious leaders in Massachusetts in that time and place were not Christ-like, and, in fact, were not what Jesus taught.

Do you know what the Spanish Inquisition was? I only ask this because many have this idea that the Church (the Catholic Church, who I have strongly disagreed with in many instances) went after non-believers in the inquisition.

This was not the case.

The inquisition was to combat heresy within the body of believers and adherents of the Catholic faith in certain areas, who professed the faith, yet used practices and followed beliefs not within the Catholic faith. They did not concern themselves with Jews or Muslims. They were internally policing their religion.

I understand fully what that was. I think it was needed, maybe. But it was still violent. Doesn't matter if it's on other people or the same religion.

You already know how I feel about both religions.

It just sucks going back to visit home and now when I got visit I gotta be asked if I'm going to join ISIS. What the hell is that.

Which is mainly why I brought this up. I think if hey did Iraq like Kuwait of UAE, we wouldn't be dealin with ISIS right now, or not at this type of level.

I noted why I lump many believers of the Muslim faith together, specifically because of what their holy book says. With a modest amount of research, I can probably pull up dozens of verses of the Koran that call on their followers to kill people. (and often in a violent manner)

There were similar themes in the Old Testament, but the world evolved, and God's plan came to fruition. He sent Jesus to be a perfect sacrifice for the sins of man, and eliminated the stringent penalties for sin contained in the Old Testament.

I challenge you to find one time that Jesus told anyone to go kill, behead, cut off the fingers of someone, or otherwise commit violence against another person in the entire New Testament. Like I said, with a rather quick internet search, I can find numerous such examples in the Koran. There is a massive difference between the teachings of Jesus and the teachings of Muhammad.

Maybe it's the crappy land. The Middle East has always bred a depraved, subhuman element.

"And I laid traps for troubadours
Who get killed before they reached Bombay"

When I think of that region of the world, economics is one of the absolute LAST reasons I would cite for it being jacked up.

Of course, with as important as materialism & prosperity are to the American culture, we tend to apply a higher value to its impact than it warrants.


Their culture as a whole, the fact that most areas are still backwater regional tribes, the devout adoption of a religion and the blind following of what the religious leaders teach, the utter inability for their own governments to stand on their own, etc....

Economics plays very little part in things, IMO.

I'd also add that the witch trials happened during a time when the average person believed in witchcraft and magic.

I'm pretty confident the average person now, would believe those accused then, where just mentally unstable and steer clear of them.

Classic...just classic.

Well, I don't know about the land, but I think crappy is relevant.

Toilet paper. That's the key. Send rolls and rolls of it over there. Can't be civilized w/o TP

I just think it's huge.

We have examples right here in the states.

The poorest area happen to be where most of the crime and racist bigots are at.

Now imagine that on a large scale. Then say hello to Iraq.

Christians are being slaughtered because they are letting themselves get slaughtered.

But the problem isn't that the country is poor, the problem is that 97% of the people are poor. We think we have unequal income distribution? PFFFFFFT... in many of these middle eastern countries it's far worse with some sliver of 1% owning almost all of the wealth. And we think our government is in the pocket of the rich? Again, I'm betting it's far worse over there because those in the government are about the only ones that ARE rich.

In general, take every problem we think we have, multiply it by about 20, and that's how they have it.

They are being slaughtered because the Muslims have decided to slaughter them. They are vastly outnumbered. One boat where they threw the Christians overboard had 100 people on it, 9 of them were Christians. I have started seeing where they are banding together now, giving them a fighting chance.
Perhaps the future will see a return of the Holy Wars of the past.

But that's what I'm hinting at.

Iraq can be a power house if they did the same things Kuwait, UAE, Bahrain do.


For instance, actual Kuwaiti citizens get monthly checks just for living there. There's a lot of things the Kings and princes would do that would put even more money in the citizens pockets.

Oil money.

Those counties don't have a terrorist problem.

If the USA, or anybody would've probabaly set up shop in Iraq, and had the citizens earning money off the oil they sold, with the only ca being they had to turn in terrorist to authorities, ISIS would be gone as fast as it started.

Think of it like this: how far would you go to make sure your family was eating, not on the streets?

Those are the decisions a lot of these guys have to make. But if I tell you "DC, you see how Kuwaitis are living? I'll give you a monthly check, all you have to do is report terrorist to the authorities if you see one"

What are you gonna do?

For yhe Middle East to not be so much of a problem, we need to think outside the box. Military action is NOT working.

You could literally substitute anything that has happened in the western world and find Christianity as a reason behind it. It's all about where you place the spin. You could easily make a claim that the holocaust happened because of Christianity and it wouldn't be far fetched at all.

Swish,

It's hard to get people to understand the Middle East who have never been there. Hell, I'm willing to bet most of the posters on here have never been out the U.S. Their world view is pretty limited. I've spent most of my life outside the country. I've seen hypocracy on both sides, regardless of religion or political view. No doubt if/when the economy collapses, it will be like MadMax out here. You have only to look at what happens after natural disasters or championship games to see the chaos that would ensue. To think other wise is insane.

I know for a fact economics is a major reason for unrest in the Middle East. This is not even a question. Or do people actually think terror groups are so devoted to their cause they'd risk their lives for free?! How many Americans would honestly serve for pure love of their nation alone? Not many. Even suicide bomber's families are paid once the deed is done.

If the Iraqi government offered its citizens money from its oil reserves (like they do in Kuwait, Saudia Arabia, etc), half of its domestic issues would end over night. How do I know this? I've lived in Iraq, Kuwait and Saudia Arabia. My job was to speak with people locally and all over the world. I would ask them this very question. 10 out of 10 would answer economics as the major problem in the country.

Another issue is most of the people in ISIS aren't even from Iraq. If you spoke/understood even a small amount of Arabic you would know this just from some of the propaganda videos alone. I laugh when I hear people who have never been to the Middle East try and speak of it as if they have any real knowledge of the region or its people. All they do is repeat what they heard on the news. It's never that black or white.

All well and good but I have never been to the moon and I can tell you everything about it. I have been to Ocean City Maryland 20 times and don't know squat about it except the nice beaches and restaurants.

Wrong. You can only repeat what you've been told about the moon. Nothing more. There is a difference between knowledge and experience.

This from the guy who interprets from his experiences that our Israeli allies and their Democracy are our enemies, Iran who supports terrorism and is looking to build nukes and is currently nose to nose with our Navy is our friend.

And your experience in any type of international relations are......

Say what you want, but atleast me and Vic have been there. At least other posters, even if eh hey disagree, understand where we are coming from, and have actual valid opinions on the topic.

You, on the other hand, know absolutely nothing.

I compare that statement to the Astronaut who tells the Astrophysicists he knows nothing because I was there!

Bad analogy. Try again.

40, when did you get your degree in middle eastern studies?

All I have left to say on the subject is that only one man ever knew the truth of what I speak and that was Dawg57 who "Mysteriously Disappeared".

http://news.yahoo.com/pope-calls-armenian-slaughter-1st-genocide-20th-century-071157057.html

Here we go

I serve my country by paying taxes.

Did you really mean to reply to Swish?




If so, pardon me - but if not - that dumb "quick reply" thing has to go.

I can't tell you how many times I read a reply..........wonder what the hell they are talking about, only to later figure out the person wasn't replying to the person they thought they were.

Was I talking to you?

It was a general comment. I appreciate people who serve in the military, but there is more than one way to serve your country.

In all fairness, you don't have to serve your country to be better than Ronald Reagan. You just need to breathe.

I guess right now I don't know who the hell you were talking to, as the reply I am replying to shows you were replying to Swish. Is that what you meant?

It's not tough to figure out. Don't use the "quick reply" unless you mean to.

So you did serve!

Also arch, on a side note when you mention Reagan and Hilary never served.

Thats fine, but that's why i vote democrat. for the most part, yes, liberals haven't served. which is why we are, in general, waaayyy more cautious about using military action than the republican counterparts.

think about it. look at the list of GOP candidates. most of them have never served, and have very little foreign policy experience. yet they are some of the biggest war mongers ever. yet liberals, with the same little experience, are exercising caution at a way higher rate, because the drums of war doesn't need to be dusted off every freaking year.

I only brought up service because, back when W was running for office - his "lack" of military service was a big issue. Even though he did serve in .........national guard? I don't remember exactly.

But yeah, when W was running, his "lack" of service was a big issue.

Odd how that's changed.

I thought it was him dodging Nam that was the problem.

for me it wasn't a big issue.

and you gotta remember, i was 13 when he got elected. i didn't much of an opinion on politics back then. more of "why is there hair right here?"

but looking at history, for me it became an issue with the drums of war being beaten. afghan was cool. but iraq was way too much. because of that, thats why military service is sort of an issue nowadays. his extremely low experience ended up raising the bar for presidency.

J/C .....

"Those with nothing to live for will find something to die for."

NOT just clicking, YTown... and I'll add my own addendum to your post:




...and those who have EVERYTHING to live for- will happily consign (or conscript) others to die for what they want/believe."

just sayin'...

________________

On the thread's subject:

It's hard to know if American citizens would ever behave like impoverished Islamic jihadists, because the situation has never (until recently) presented itself upon our shores. We DON'T have groups rising up to ravage their fellow citizens.

It's an almost given fact that the same socioeconomic conditions that compel young men who live in Islamic states to join jihadist cults are the exact same conditions that compel young American males to join gangs. Swish- if THAT was your basis for starting this thread, then you and I see things eye-to-eye on this matter.

This dovetails into Vers' "The Implications Of Racism" thread all too snugly... in that many of the pressures brought to bear upon the socioeconomically oppressed youth of America mirror the conditions that spawn the next would-be terrorist from Tehran, Bahrain, or Indonesian slum.

Since Human Beings don't change much from millennium to millennium, culture to culture, it's entirely possible that "American jihadists" could pop up at any time- even in our own society.

We need look no further than Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols to see see what isolation, hopelessness and anger can bring. The Sarneyev brothers are a more recent version... and the conditions that prompted all of them to act as they did live within every society.

Here in America, we have a few more safeguards in place... namely, a viable social construct that has been in place for 300+ years, BUT:

There is no guarantee that what we have will keep us safe from the scenario you describe.

Human Beings are Human Beings... and throughout time, they've always managed to find a way to "eff up" a good thing.


Your scenario is unlikely.... but it's not impossible.

Great civilizations have been laid low in the past... and it's a sure bet that they will be laid low again.

We are not immune.


.02

Great post Clem, as usual.

Your points are extremely valid, and the gangs are a great example of how those terrorist groups build.

One thing that seems to really differ is the enforcement of law. ISIS seems to be working in an area that puts very little effort into tracking them down and bringing them to justice. From my perspective at least, they carry out their atrocities, and the only ones who seems to care enough to try to stop them is us.


McVeigh and Nichols are good examples of home grown terrorist like, and what happens when you carry out your illegal agendas. We investigate, we track you down and we bring you to justice. The Boston bombing is another example.

Yes, groups can form and do harm, but unlike ISIS, they will not go unopposed by those seeking to right their wrong, or see justice served.

Now in the case of the collapse of America, no law enforcement or government to handle it, I don't think these groups would be out killing for "a cause". Basically in such a case the US would become very "Walking Dead" like, in that people of like interests would gather to create small communities, while fighting off marauders and invaders.

The reason for killing would be food and property, as it mostly has been in tough times throughout human history, not race or religion.

Not getting into the,"You had to have served to understand" debate, because I've gotten into with Dawg57 on the old board. What bothers me is all that it accomplishes is people having to defend statements based on deep emotions and will never be settled.

I respect that the military people have a completely different understanding after being there. That doesn't mean they can completely discount any statement others make. In this case I really think Victor was addressing that comment to one particular person. I've had these discussions with him in the past and he never discounted all of my beliefs.

On the other point about presidents who never served, I think Clinton was royally roasted for going abroad with a Rhodes Scholarship. He was the first not to have served in some capacity. It was the one point of opposition to his sending troops to Bosnia.

"He never served, he can't possibly qualify as CIC!!"
"Wag the Dog" "He's only doing this to avoid attention on how incredibly devious, awful, satanic and subhuman he is!"

I think that pretty much wraps up the sentiment back then.

Just like John McCain's age was a big issue and Hillary would be what.. a year and a half younger if she wins?

Holy War, it begins...

Islamic Terror Attacks on Christians

List:

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/christianattacks.htm

==================================================

Tens of thousands of Muslims flee Christian militias in Central African Republic

Article:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/afri...f5fb_story.html

However, there are many instances in our country's history when ordinary men stepped up to fight for those things they loved and felt most strongly about. The Revolutionary War ruined many rich men. The Civil War was all about ideals, and many in the North fought for the ideal of freedom for all, despite sometimes fighting against their own family members, and watching their property and homes be destroyed. (especially those close to the battle lines) Many men gave up their lives for the rights of others. Men volunteered for duty in WWII, even before the draft. Middle class men, (well, outside of the depression) poor men, rich men .... all volunteered for service.

Some people step up to help others in times of crisis, and others resort to the most savage of actions. When disaster befalls people in this country ... or even those in other countries .... which people rush to the fore to help out, either physically, or with monetary support ... eve in poor economic times.

I think that the people of this country would do as we always seem to do in times of crisis .... pull together, help one another, and care for one another.

Deuteronomy 17
If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die.


BOOM

Did obama have a lot of military service

Did Jesus speak in Deuteronomy?

There was a Law of God the was in place early in the history of Israel. This Law was to show Israel her sins, and to amplify sins. Why? Because they did not want to come to God for salvation on their own, and in fact, thought that they could "earn" their salvation on their own. So, God used the Law to amplify and increase their sins exponentially. Add in the laws of Moses, and then the laws of the Pharisees and Sadducees, and it became almost impossible to not sin. At the end of the Old Testament, no one heard from God for about 300-400 years. No one heard from His prophets.

Then God sent Jesus. That changed everything. God showed that man could never earn salvation on his own, and then he sent Christ to be the perfect sacrifice for our sins.

The Old Testament had a purpose, and it is spelled out if you read the entire Bible. The Old Testament was not God's final plan, but rather a vital part of His final plan.

I cant really argue, because none of this actually happened. Its like arguing over the when the Browns won the SuperBowl.

Matthew 26:52-54 - Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

Exodus 21:12-14 - He that smiteth a man, so that he die, shall be surely put to death.

That's your opinion, and you are welcome to hold it.

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Do you understand what Jesus said in that verse?

Peter, one of Jesus' disciples, grabbed a sword to try to protect Jesus from soldiers who had come to take Him for trial. Peter actually injured one of the soldiers, and Jesus told him to stop, to not embrace violence, because ultimately, violence is a self fulfilling prophesy.

Again, Old Testament.

If I may make a suggestion, read the Bible. All of it. All the way through, from start to finish. Look at the pattern, and the progression.

Once you have done this, you will no longer look at individual verses as messages on their own, but as part of the larger whole. You will see how the Bible progresses, from showing man his sin, convicting him of that sin, and offering man a perfect way out of his sins.

However, I suspect that you will choose to continue to try and cherry pick individual verses that had a time and place, but within the larger plan of God.

and this : But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

What you don't realize 1day is your sudden reading and searching of the Word is God calling you to knowledge. Go for it, argue with it, read it and see where it all leads.

Look, im not gonna debate religion as this is not what the post is about. My point is that ALL religions have one goal and that is to be in power. How do you become in power of people? By fear. How do you make people fear you, by killing them.

Religion was based on a need to CONTROL people. Thus all religions promote killing and war.

Sadly, it leads to death and false hope.

Read that New Testament, cover to cover, then report back to us on what you have found, good, bad, happy or sad. Perhaps you will convince me it is bad so I can go Par-tay!

Wellllll, if God wrote the bible, why would there be a NEW Testament? Why a different book that changed? And it changed years and years later, so I am confused.

and I know we got off topic, but one more thing. If christianity was TRUE, why would there be different religions? You are believing that your religion is true and no others are, yet if you were born Muslim you would believe in the Koran, if you were born into a jewish family, would believe Jesus was the son of god that died for your sins? If it was fact and happened, then there would be leway in the matter, yet there is nothing but contradicting religions all believing different things.

What about Zeus, Athena, and Apollo? people once thought those Gods were true and lived by them.....another civilization that was completely wrong.

Ok, you got that from the New Testament? I'm not looking to argue religion either. I'm going out to buy a Par-Tay hat right now. Keep me informed of what you find, not what you think now. I gotta know you read it and found it to be about control and death.

Wow! I can't keep up! You post like lightning!

Wellll, to the best of my memory, the coming of Jesus Christ was considered the New Covenant so the Bible actually doesn't end and start again, the coming of Jesus is a continuation and fulfillment of the Old. They tie together.

The Old Testament predicts a Messiah (see Isaiah 53), and the New Testament reveals who the Messiah is (John 4:25–26). The Old Testament records the giving of God’s Law, and the New Testament shows how Jesus the Messiah fulfilled that Law (Matthew 5:17; Hebrews 10:9). In the Old Testament, God’s dealings are mainly with His chosen people, the Jews; in the New Testament, God’s dealings are mainly with His church (Matthew 16:18). Physical blessings promised under the Old Covenant (Deuteronomy 29:9) give way to spiritual blessings under the New Covenant (Ephesians 1:3).



Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/difference-old-new-testaments.html#ixzz3Y9x52ZC8

Sounds like the Matrix trilogy to me...

So the earth has only been "created" for 6000 years, can anyone explain dinosaurs?

Noahs ark, so noah had a heating system to keep the lions warm and cooling system to keep the polar bears cold, cause he was a thinker!

and when i bring that up i get "well its about interpretation and its a story" so then how do we know whats to be interpreted and whats story? killing people for being gay is in the bible, is that interpreted or story? who is to say what you can interpret and what needs to be taken as law. . . . it seems religious people pick and choose what they want out of the bible, so to me that doesnt make sense either.

Well, I was born an Atheist and remained so into my 20's. If we went back in time to then, I would agree with you that it is a bunch of crap.

Lol! Not all Christians believe the earth is 6000 years old. There are groups who do however. My favorite thing to do was look at a star at night and say "At the speed of light, the light from that star takes 15,000 years to get here." "We are looking at that star 15,000 years ago."

Look, I am not educated enough to understand all the ins and outs of the Bible, you want to go deeper you gotta talk to Ytown or someone on here who has studied it deeper. PM them and they will be glad to talk to you. Luck Bud, keep me informed.

Which goes to point, the bible basically shows 6,000 years old, so then you cant believe in teh bible. The age of the earth can be estimated by taking the first five days of creation (from earth’s creation to Adam), then following the genealogies from Adam to Abraham in Genesis 5 and 11, then adding in the time from Abraham to today.

Adam was created on day 6, so there were five days before him. If we add up the dates from Adam to Abraham, we get about 2,000 years, using the Masoretic Hebrew text of Genesis 5 and 11.3 Whether Christian or secular, most scholars would agree that Abraham lived about 2,000 B.C. (4,000 years ago).

Sorry, I added to that previous post, read it again. I can't keep up! Ahhhhh

You cannot prove that it is true or happened, just as I cannot prove that I am the sexiest man alive. I believe I am, however my wife has told me different.

Science has proven time and time again that the bible is incorrect, yet people "choose" to believe that science is wrong. When there are FACTS that show the bible is true adn these things happened, you will have an argument. Let me know when that happens.

Yeah I am on a roll today. I start a new job monday so this is my "free" week at work. Im basically just sitting here not doing anything. lol

But you and others reject the facts and refuse to consider them.

You are like the guy 2000 years from now who finds a copy of our Washington Post and laughs at it as made up.

Congrats on the new job, you a Minister?

Nah, I was never into little boys

Oh dear.

Well you seem to know a lot of stuff so my advice is to read that New Testament and see what you think.

It sure brought this long ago atheist to a better life. I never got into all the details of the Bible, I was more into the message. Other guys on here know the details too.

I have found that God has my back and always has, even when I was that atheist, so I have decided to have His back too, and always will. His Son is pretty cool too. Saved my butt.

Hey and I appreciate that. I just think it is a MESSAGE that is not from a god. I am not saying that the bible is evil or that religion is evil, (i think the organizations of religion may be) but the premise to ME is that its suppose to be a message on how people should act, a message written by MEN.

If believing in the bible and god turn a crook into a saint, and makes my car safer on teh street parked in front of my house, GO BIBLE!

we've been in a holy war since 1947. open your eyes.

1day, to be fair to christians, a lot of them don't believe that 6000 year old nonsense. it's that new christian wave or whatever they call it. everyone on this board who is christian has never once claimed to believe in that.

However, you're point is valid on multiple religions. and i've said it before.

there's hundreds of religions, and thousands of gods that humans are worshipping right NOW. so how does someone have the audacity to tell someone their religion is the wrong one, mine is right? its utter nonsense.

christian or muslim religion is no more valid than the guy with the flying spaghetti monster shrine he worships.

All they want IS power. think about it. They always try to revert society to the days that religion was the government. the days when you could get tried for treason for speaking out against the church. We still got nut cases THIS year talking about being homosexuals should be a execution sentence. Are you freaking kidding me?

The ONLY difference is our government is stable, in the middle east, specifically iraq, they're not. so they can get away with that crap out there. But make no mistake about it, the politicians and people with money who are hardcore would love nothing more than to make a christian version of the middle east, where The bible is taught in school more than science, where women have to dress like it's freaking little house on the prairy.

but anyway, there's too many instances where economy is a major factor in the middle east.

we see it right here in the states. the poorest areas are ran by thugs and gangs. even the prison system, where the prison guards are bought by cartels, gangs, and Aryans.

then you got these backwood militias training with military grade equipment, most of them trained from the military service. Vice did an excellent report of the homegrown threat.

We so worried about people in a different continent that we are ignoring the issues right here at home. Almost every major dynasty since recorded history has been destroyed from the inside.

I hereby nominate this sentence for "quote of the day"...

look at Utah and Idaho and tell me i'm lying.

You're not lying, you are Kwady!

Don't they teach the Koran in school more than science and wouldn't their women be happier to wear lighter "little house" dresses instead of a head to toe Burka?

they push science and education hard in the middle east. Iran, for example, has a low birth rate because they give the women birth control that way they focus on education first. Same thing in turkey.

developed countries, anyway. but that's not the point.

I am curious as to what all of these times are. I mean, there must be hundreds of them by the way you present it, so please, elucidate.

Judging from your response to me, I'm going to assume that you thought I was being sarcastic (Maybe it was the smiley that did it...).

I was not being sarcastic at all.

I found it to be dead on-point, and truly funny because of the word choice. It really was: "the quote of the day."

"Little House on the Prairie"... choice material.

LMAO!

...and those who have the financial wherewithal, send their kids straight to the United States to get the best college education they can.

So much for that old cliche: "The Great Western Devil," eh?



__________________________

To the rest of My Dawgs:

Here in the the NW of Ohio, we live at the southern tip of the most densely-populated Arabic community in the entire Western Hemisphere.

The colleges around here have almost as many Middle-Eastern international students per capita as we have Asians. These are bright, focused and highly-motivated kids, and they're going toe-to-toe with those who came from Korea, Japan, China. Super serious. They are not about keggers and chasing skirt. School is what they're here for... and they are NOT going to allow themselves to be distracted. Too much of their families' futures are riding on their individual successes at this phase of their lives. Many of the 2nd-generation families here host students from their mother country, to help them defer the costs of room & board- thereby making their education costs manageable.

For all the news coverage and air time devoted to the least educated, most violent factions of the Middle East communities, we tend to forget (or ignore) the important scientific, artistic, mathematic, philosophical and intellectual advancements that came from this region of the globe. Astronomy, poetry, high literature, medicine, music, science... ALL were pushed forward by advanced thinkers from this region when the peoples of Europe were still trying to form cohesive communal collectives. That tradition exists up to today... and I see everyday evidence of it when I'm out doing 'arts outreach' collaborations with the local college communities.

These kids ask questions at seminars that put their American counterparts to shame. Some of them know more more about Beethoven, Bach, Stravinsky and Shostakovich than 1st and 2nd year MusPerf majors... and they're Economics/CompSci majors!

Think about this: One of our modern core subjects in the S.T.E.M. curriculum in 2015, is Algebra ( (from Arabic: al-jebr meaning "reunion of broken parts")...which dates back to at least 1830-1531 BC. This science predates the contributions of Plato and the Greek revolution by ~1500 years. Even the numbers 1, 2, 3... etc are called "Arabic numerals" because of their origins.

To be sure, there is a wealth of societal dysfunction in this region of the world... but at the same time, I truly want My Dawgs to understand that what we've been shown by the media is only a slice of what these people truly are. We do them an injustice (-and limit our own understanding of The Real World) if we allow ourselves to paint the entire region with a broad brush.

They ain't all terrorists (or 'terrorists-in-waiting').
They ain't all backwards, religiously-shackled drones.
They ain't all 'enemies of what America represents.'

They are as varied and individual- one from another- as you or I.

My own personal experiences with them have shown me this.

That reminds me... it's been awhile since I closed up the Beirut (on Monroe St.) with Labib. It's high time he hosted another after-concert reception at his restaurant (...the bar section is truly a 'free-flowing resource' of libation and 'good talk' for us musicians... he loves us).

.02,
Clem

Don't let some on these posters or the media comment though. According to them, the Middle East is completely filled with terrorist and people who hate our country.... Even tHough they love our schools, hip hop music, have a famous hip hop Palestinian DJ, the originators of girls with big butts. And the fact that you can look up Muslims musicians on music videos that would make MTV and BET look like children's programs.

But hey... Let's not change the "death to America" narrative.

Part of the problem here is that "Middle East" includes like 15-20 countries. Interestingly, Afghanistan is technically not in the Middle East.

We don't use facts bro. You forgot already?

Swish, not many times I am on teh same page as you, but on this I completely am.

No, I just wanted to stir up trouble.

Noahs Ark comes to mind.

Also the earth being flat:

In the New World Translation Daniel 4:10-11 relates Nebuchadnezzar's dream:

"'Now the visions of my head upon my bed I happened to be beholding, and, look! a tree in the midst of the earth, the height of which was immense. The tree grew up and became strong, and its very height finally reached the heavens, and it was visible to the extremity of the whole earth.'"

The word "midst" means "middle" or "center." Consistently, other Bible versions say "a tree in the middle (or center) of the earth." This verse says that the tree was visible to the extremity of the whole earth, and therefore paints a picture of a flat, circular earth. The tree stood in its center and had its top in the heavens so as to be visible from all over the earth. This would be impossible on a spherical earth.

The picture in Daniel is further strengthened by the account of the Devil's tempting Jesus. Matthew 4:8 says:

Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.

Again the picture is that all the kingdoms of the world could be viewed from a sufficiently high mountain, which is not possible on a spherical earth.

So ... as far as Noah's ark .... there are so many related stories all around the world, in different cultures, that if it is only a story, then it was one that was thought up by a lot of different people.

There was a flood, accompanied by climate changes, that killed off a lot of people, and animals. You find the story of God saving one family, and a specific group of animals unlikely, but I see it as entirely possible. If there is a God, then why would such a thing be beyond His power? God, by His very definition, can do anything.

Further, mankind does come from a very limited genetic wellspring. This means that most of humanity died off at some point, and a very small group set about repopulating the earth. (whether one believes that man was a direct creation of God, or whether one believes that we emerged from pond scum, to toad, to lizard, to dinosaur, to monkey, to human, or whatever evolutionary path one believes) The facts do seem to indicate a mass extinction of people, followed by a re-population of the earth. If we look at how quickly humanity spreads and grows, this bottleneck would appear to have taken place at about the time of Noah. Further, the Old Testament gives direct genealogy of all people going all the way back to Adam. The numbers add up to what the Bible says. It is absolutely consistent. I believe that God doing such things is far more likely than the universe being created out of nothing ..... by nothing ...... and humanity climbing out of nonliving pond sludge to somehow become alive.

One other thing about Genesis. "God said, let there be light, and there was light" ....... and what do we now think happened when the universe was created? There was a massive explosion of matter and energy, likely in a massive explosion of light, and expanded into the universe in a matter of less than a second. As far as the years, I don't know whether the story of Genesis was intended as an exact creation outline, or whether God knew than mankind would have no idea of what billions of years meant at that time.

As far as the dream ..... it was a dream. The tree was King Nebuchadnezzar, as the dream was interpreted by Daniel. It was not a literal mapping of the world. Did people on the other side of the world know who Nebuchadnezzar was? Of course not. Only people in a specific and limited region of the earth knew (of) him. Think of the dream as a map of the kingdom of Nebuchadnezzar. Prophetic dreams in the Bible are rarely literal.

As far as the devil ..... would him showing Jesus all of the kingdoms of the world necessarily have to mean that they could look out and see them all at the same time? I do not believe that there is a mountain in all of Israel that one could climb and see, for example, Rome. (with the naked eye) That distance is roughly 1400 miles. The devil could have laid out the kingdoms of the world before Him, as if on a canvas. Rome was part of the known world at that time, and if one could not see Rome from a mountain top, with one's bare eyes, then there could be no expectation to see any further than that.

So Noah was able to keep penquins and polar bears cold with a refrigeration/cooling system and he kept the lions and such warm with a heating system.....cause that tech was around back then.

If we accept that God exists, then what can He not do?

Could the kind of ark that Noah build survive massive swells and waves, and horrible storms? Nope, not without divine intervention. Could tigers and gazelle co-exist peacefully? Probably not without God's intervention.

If God exists, and I believe that he does, then by definition, this would not even take a figurative snap of His fingers.

God didnt create the arc according to the bible, Noah did. So Noah would have had to make a cooling system and heating system and what have you. And you said before about the similar stories of the Arc. Well, some of those stories were from thousand years before, so I tend to believe that it is a work of fiction based of past stories.

You don't see because you don't want to see.

If God protected the ark, then why would He not also have protected the animals within, and provided for their wellbeing? "Oh, God couldn't have done that, because there weren't refrigerators in those days". Really. God created everything that is, from dirt to the entire universe ..... but he can't handle modifying climates within an ark?

I get it that you don't believe in God, and that's your choice. However arguing that God could not keep the hot parts hot and the cool parts cool is really pretty ridiculous. It's like saying that we couldn't have had burgers with fresh veggies on them before the McDonald's McDLT thing.

Yet you completely ignored about the stories being thousand years before the bible even existed.......

Kinda need the event to happen before you write it down.

And I get you do believe in God, and thats your choice. However arguing that God COULD keep the hot parts hot and cold parts cold is really pretty ridiculous itself.

Also, every quality of Jesus is compromised of different Gods from the past. Seems like a group of people met in a room and picked through what to write about and how to portray someone.

Exactly.