https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fOO99qcASEM

The only thing I disagree with in the video is at the end when he says it is better to be educated than opinionated.

He would never make it in DawgTalkers land!

you tube



How to inform a cop you have a pizza...and live...maybe

What do you know? That's the same advice I've given for any cop stop.

Me too but I found this video says it better.

I was shocked at Deisels vid. Man you talk about forcing the guy with the gun to make split second decisions about your life, crazy! Frightening!

jc..


If The Cops Pull You Over, These Are Your Rights


Christina Sterbenz
Nov. 22, 2013, 5:01 PM
link

When we heard about a New Mexico man's nightmarish traffic stop, we wondered what rights you actually have when you get pulled over.

We talked to Martin Kron, a New York traffic attorney and former traffic court judge, and his son, attorney Daniel Kron, about your rights on the road.

Police can't pull you over without probable cause.
Cops can't just randomly stop you and look for drugs in your car. They need a reason, or "probable cause," like speeding or a broken tail light.

Let's say you are speeding, the police do pull you over, and they do find drugs in your car. But let's say the officer wants to give you a break and forgoes a speeding ticket. Cops don't need to ticket you for speeding to provide probable cause for the stop in court; their notes from the situation would provide enough evidence.

"It's not enough to just not have a ticket as proof. The officer would have had to fail to write it in his narrative," Daniel Kron said.

You don't have to pull over until you can do so safely.
You should still pull over when you can do so safely, Martin Kron said. And if you can't, you should notify the officer with a hand signal and drive the speed limit.

"The sooner, the better though. Don't upset the officer. Sometimes you might end up with three tickets instead of one," he added, implying officers might look for extra infractions if you made them angry.

You have the right to stay in your car.
"It's perfectly legal for you to say in the vehicle, but doing so looks bad to the officer," Martin Kron said.

Officers often ask people to "step out of the car" as a safety precaution — to make sure the driver doesn't have any concealed weapons. But it's probably best to get out of the car to avoid a tense situation.

It's not a good idea, but you can refuse a breathalyzer.
Most states, including New York, have a statute called "implied consent." When you get your driver's license, you agree to a breathalyzer when pulled over. You can technically still refuse a breathalyzer, but in many states you could get your license suspended for six months if you do.

Now, if police suspect you of drug use, the protocol changes. Based on probable cause, the officer can take you back to the station for either a blood test or analysis from a drug recognition expert, according to Martin Kron.

You are required to stop at checkpoints.
Yes, drivers do have to stop at checkpoints. Police departments plan checkpoints ahead of time, but they must have a specific plan, such as stopping every third car (or every car), according to Martin Kron.

Cops can only search your car without a warrant for these 5 reasons.
1) If you consent, police naturally have a right to search your car.

2) "Plain view" also gives an officer the okay to search your car. "If an officer approaches your car and on the passenger seat he notices a baggie of marijuana ... based on regular activities — meaning he doesn't have to search too hard" then the pot is considered to be in plain view, Daniel Kron said.

3) The third reason is "search incident to arrest," according to Daniel Kron. Basically, if an officer arrests you with probable cause, he or she can then search your vehicle.

4) Your car can be searched if an "officer has probable cause to suspect a crime," Daniel Kron said. For example, it's not illegal to have blood on your front seats, to have a black eye, or to have a ripped-up purse in the car. But all those things in conjunction could be suspicious to an officer.

5) Lastly, "exigent circumstances," allow a warrantless search. Before an officer receives a warrant, he can "break every rule if he suspects the evidence is about to be destroyed," Daniel Kron said.

This happens more often in specific locations, like residences, instead of vehicles. For example, if the police want to conduct a drug search and they hear a toilet flush, they can reasonably enter your home, Daniel noted.

You have to let the cops search your car if they have a warrant.
You have to let them search your car if they have a warrant, but some limits apply to the areas they can search.

"If a police officer believes you have a gun in your vehicle, he's not allowed to search in an area too small to hold it," Daniel Kron noted. In that case, the glove box may be fair game but not the cigarette lighter.

Even if police find something incriminating the warrant didn't stipulate — like drugs in the glove box while looking for a gun — the "plain sight" exception applies. They'll still charge you.

Nice article. It's good to know what your rights are when you are stopped. Everybody should do some research on that. The only thing I would add is that sometimes it's better to just err on the side of using common sense and having courtesy.

Sometimes I see these videos of people stopped who are 'exercising their rights' to open their window a tiny crack, and only answer the questions they are legally obligated to like their identity. Then they repeat "Am I being detained or am I free to go?" like a robot. Cringe-worthy.


edit: I should add that I understand the idea behind that in regards to not incriminating yourself. I just think there's usually a better approach where you can act more normal, for lack of a better term, while also still not incriminating yourself.

Or on the campaign trail with Trump.

Your rights are good in a Court of Law.

Your rights are useless when you have led in your head.

Do not fight the Cop, your day comes in court.

Learn to live to fight another day!

We can educate all we want. There are those who will resist authority at any cost. Then there are those who will complain about the results.

So basically, in that situation, stay calm and use common sense? Is that what the Youtube guy is saying?

Nail on the head Cjrae, I am beginning to think it is all about people who resist any kind of authority.

j/c

It's a shame we have to remind each other that yes, a cop can loose their temper just like anyone else.

If anyone else loses their temper you can usually deal with it but when faced with an irate cop, your life is on the line!
Please don't eat led, even if you are right.

Why is it a shame to remind anybody that all people are human?

I always thought the best way was to jump out of your car and run back to the cop car waving it at them so they can see it...

Yes. Don't force the guy with the gun to have to make split second decisions on whether or not to kill you.

Some people, well ex-people, agree with that strategy.

Traffic stops
On the lighter side...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=4d2_1469985590

https://www.facebook.com/shaunking/videos/1089079334464317/

I bet half of y'all won't watch the video

This is the BS blacks deal with on a daily basis. Cops got a cam on and still steady lying.

No warrant for arrest, not the same dude, never asked for ID, but the cops go "he looks like Michael".

So while y'all steady high fiving each other in this dumbass threads, remember: it's easy to judge when you're not black and don't have to live through BS like this.

If Michael was white and I got pulled over looking just like him, would I possibly be detained?

Several of those cops should lose their jobs over that, period. Completely lying and even referencing that the camera will prove his innocence, what a moron. Sad and disturbing.

Well yeah, you possibly would be detained. Probably not, but I'm sure it's possible. You certainly wouldn't be detained after you identified yourself. And that's what makes all the difference.

He didn't even look close to the same as the guy they were looking for! Why didn't they ask for his ID? Get the ID and the confrontation is resolved in less than 5 seconds.

Oh, I agree but are you saying it couldn't happen to a white guy?

I've seen this one a few times now.

I'm done trying to tell people how often this happens. I've even written on these boards how it happened to one of my best friends out in Arizona. It went much worse for Byron... his face was unrecognizable in the 'after' photos.

National Merit Scholar.
Page at the Indiana State House.
Salutatorian at Ball State.
Former member of the National Symphony Orchestra.
No wants, no warrants, no arrest record.

Stopped for a 'moving violation' (burned-out license plate light- that was miraculously working AFTER the stop).

__________________________


Folks around here should know me by now. They should know that I'm not some knee-jerk radicalized reactionary, nor am I some anti-police demagogue. When I talk about these things, I'm not assuming the role of "race-baiter," rabble rouser or pot-stirrer. All my posts have been sincere alarms to an audience who may not have even realized how pervasive this really is.

If we truly do have a constitution that's worth the paper upon which it's written, if all men are truly created equal, every American citizen has a vested interest in seeing things like this stopped.

Better training?
Better oversight?
More stringent hiring standards?

I'm fresh out of ideas... and I'm tired of a society routinely excusing bad decisions by bad cops in an effort to 'protect' all cops.

I'll be interested to see what happens as this case moves forward. Hope this young man gets the opportunity to continue his life path. If he ends up deeper into The System because of this, it would truly be a miscarriage.

Perfect example of 'the trap.'

History tells us no. However, since you're posing it as a hypothetical, then yes it could happen. A gigantic meteorite could also destroy a police station, killing tens of officers, and we could then charge that meteorite with a hate crime. That is a possibility of life, however it's also extremely doubtful.

So you are telling me for it to happen to a white guy is as rare as hen's teeth and I could not possibly post link after link of the very same thing happening to white folks throughout Georgia, WV, Pa, Ohio, on and on?

So why haven't you posted a link or links? Only a liar or a cheat would rely on hypotheticals instead of on facts.

Well, society and people on this board say there are more good cops than bad.

I guess the those good cops mainly work in the suburbs.

How rare is it to have a good cop in the hood? They are so rare that when one is a good cop, he gets national attention for it. The dancing cop at the BLM cook out, for example.

Because I will not take the time to post links to prove that this hypothetical accusation of racism is just that.

Bad Police work yes, Racism is known only to the officers as it would be what was in their minds at the time of the arrest.

I find no evidence of racism until such time as the Police officer admits he acted out of racism. Until then it is only an emotional reaction to the events by Swish.

I rest my case.

Bro, I agree with you that the whole thing was BS. But, I think the things Patrick did was typical in a lot of these cases. As the video which started this thread explains, don't do anything to give them any cause to think you're trouble.

The first thing Patrick did wrong was to hesitate when asked his name. When first asked for his name he answered with the question, "Why are you askin'?" An officer ALWAYS wants to know who you are. Why didn't he just tell them his name? They had to ask that simple question twice. When he did answer with his name he gave only his first name.

That alone is cause for suspicion. When told to stand up he did. When told to turn around and put his hands on the car instead of doing that he stands defiant asking, "What happened?", "What'd I do?". He then sat back down in the car instead of simply following orders. "Y'all didn't tell me: What'd I do, man?". He goes on to say, "I just came back from my probation officer", as he grabs the steering wheel in resistance. That's when the officer says, "Taze him."

At this point Patrick has done nothing the officer asked him to do except give his name and he hesitated doing that until asked a second time. It's not like he didn't understand the question when first asked. That in itself is suspicious. Once your name has been established and that you don't have a weapon a reasonable verbal exchange can begin. But all that resistance is cause for suspicion and leads to a confrontation.

He doesn't follow any orders from the officer, verbally refuses to get up out of the car, asks for a warrant, puts his foot up in defiance to keep the officer away, says "Y'all aren't telling me what's going on, man.", then tries to close the car door to keep the officers away. How much more non-compliant and resistive does an innocent man act?

Then he gets hit with a tazer.

I'm not completely certain but I'm betting that if when he was first asked his name he immediately answered, "Patrick Mumford", and then stood up and put his hands on the car so the officer could pat him down for a weapon he would then have been asked for his I.D. Producing that the whole issue would have been settled, as it was in the end, with Patrick having said nothing more than his whole name when asked and then allowing the pat down.

To me, this is the type of resistive, suspicious behavior that causes a lot of these interactions to go bad.

I've seen many, many videos in which blacks were unfairly treated from the get but this was not one of them. The video stopping and adding the typed words are biased as hell.

When an officer makes a stop you have to allow him to be in charge from the beginning, especially if you're innocent. Answer the questions, do what you're told until the officer is sure he is safe and you are not combative. How hard is that for an adult to do? The instant negative responses to simple questions or commands is seen as resisting authority and the encounter will not play out well.

Had he immediately given his full name, complied to the pat down, he'd have never been tazed and then, producing his I.D. would have had the same effect it did have, which was totally diffusing the situation, without all the nonsense that led up to it.

If Patrick Mumford suffers any ill effects in his near future due to this incident he can only blame himself.

Like I said, I've seen many videos of unfair police treatment of blacks. This was not one of them. Patrick created this himself.

I guess black people all look alike.

Maybe that's what he is saying, but it's not what I'm trying to get across. CHS can speak (very well) for himself.

What I'm saying is this: if it could happen to this young man, if it could happen to my friend, it could happen to someone you know and love, too. That should scare last night's dinner out of you, no matter WHAT you look like.

As do whites and hispanics and asians and and and...

Bad Police work does not Racism make.

You owe an apology to all the other races now.

Bro that's some horse crap. You really just sat there and defended this?

The cop had no warrant for his arrest. He ask to see the warrant, they didn't show it. It wasn't even the guy they was looking for.

The cop NEVER asked for ID.

This is why there's so much hostility between cops, cop supporters, and the black community.

You can even swallow your pride and call this what it is: police brutality.

Yes, Bad Police Work is bad for every citizen and this is not an issue of race.

I don't owe an apologia to anybody.

All whites or Hispanics do not look alike.

Take that bigot crap somewhere else.

Bad Police work Swish. Not Racism unless the cop says he detained the guy because he hates blacks. Fact Bro.

Blah blah blah.

When white people get treated like this on a regular basis let me know.

In the past 24 hours 40 has claimed that all black people look alike and that white people gave them their freedom. But he's not racist, ya'll!

I tried staying out of this crap thread as long as I could.

But you know what? Y'all don't get it unless it's put in your face.

This is the crap that the black and Latino community goes through on a regular.

Here it is, all of video, and yet people still got the nerve to deny it. And that what's sucks about the whole situation.

Honestly at this point I know y'all couldn't care less. Y'all don't have to live through it, so what does it matter to you?

Columbus, I'm glad you spoke up about this bro.

But when you say you don't care about social issues during elections, maybe you should. Just a little bit.

Cause blacks and Latinos, aka myself, lurker, Clem, Chs. Our communities have to deal with stuff like this on a daily basis. Not weekly. Daily.

Social issues matter to us bro.

Not great police work at all. But I've been stopped plenty of times in my life. Yes, I'm white. But that has nothing to do with it. Because my point is I can't imagine myself being argumentative and resistive like that from the beginning.

If you're black and you are expecting to be treated unfairly then that is all the more reason to politely answer the questions and comply with simple orders.

What is the point of hesitation in giving your name? What is your reason for resisting a simple pat down for a weapon? Is it because you think if you give your name something bad will happen? Do you think if you comply to the weapon pat down and they find no weapon that it will go bad for you?

If you resist either of those two simple requests it gives the appearance that you do have something to hide. Patrick had nothing to hide, so why did he react that way?

Is this the way you would act if confronted by the police?

Swish said he guesses all blacks look the same.
I said we all look the same.
This is true especially when you are unfamiliar with a race of people.
Isn't this why the lineup at the police station has dropped out of favor?

You guys can make every issue a race issue if it pleases you but I will call you on it when it is not.

Dismissing everyone who has a different opinion from yours as Racist and bigoted is foolish and will only serve to strengthen the Racists when something occurs that really is racist.

Have you ever wondered why the cries of BLM falls mostly on deaf ears and is so quickly dismissed? See above.

Yes, it's exactly how I would react.

They had no warrant. They didn't ask for ID.

So guess what that means? No crime was being committed.

No crime was committed.

No crime was committed.

If a cop ask my name, I HAVE before replied "why?"

Because guess what? That's NOT A CRIME

So unless a bank robber admits he did it, no bank robbery happened?

Got it!

What?
So you are saying you know what the officer was thinking when he made the arrest and it was racist?

Yet that compares to a guy caught robbing a bank?
Do you know what the bank robber was thinking too?

Get back up there, in the wind.

Good luck with that.

The bank robber wasn't robbing a bank. He was just making a withdrawal without the sufficient funds in his account and had to ask for other people's money. It was just a standard bank procedure, unless, of course, the man admitted to robbing the bank.

To try to say that there is no racism among police officers is no different than saying there is no racism in any other profession. That's ridiculous.

There are racists among plumbers, roofers, welders, construction workers and cops. It exists in every profession. To claim you have to wait for someone to admit it for you to believe it's there is nonsensical.

I have an issue w/you--and some others.

You constantly want to talk about how you are being targeted by others yet get upset when people point out how much harm your own people do to one another.

It seems to me that you are furthering the divide rather than trying to bridge it.

Who ever said there is no racism?
What proof of racism do you have on the arresting officer in this case?

when have I ever got upset?

Last time I checked, I was one of the main ones bringing up issues within blacks.

But I get it, I have to be unbiased while everybody is allowed to constantly talk trash about us.

Kick rocks.

What I'd like to ask is this:
"Why is it NEVER a race-related incident with some people?"

Everyone agrees that bigotry exists.
Most agree that racism is a factor in society.
So I ask you: what motivates a person to immediately default to skepticism whenever these situations arise?

You yourself said (loose quote): "unsubstantiated cries of racism dilute the veracity of REAL instances of racism."

To which I counter: "what's to be done when incidents of REAL racism are treated exactly the same way as imagined ones?"


Interesting little 'social conundrum,' isn't it?

According to your claim, any cop would have to admit to it first. Do you really believe that's ever going to happen? You set a ridiculous precedent before it can be called racism.

I believe the video makes it clear that normal procedures were not followed. It seems that you would never see it unless a cop faced the camera and said, "I'm doing this because I'm a racist."

Racism exists, brother.

It exists on both sides, Clem.

Now, what can we do to fix it? Put all the blame on the other side?

You are much too intelligent to believe that.

That depends on the circumstances. At best, that is needlessly antagonizing. In many situations it actually is a crime. In Ohio, you are legally obligated to provide your name, address, and date of birth when requested. More details on when that applies here: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2921.29

Asking why isn't a crime.

Your link doesn't say it is, either.

Just like recording the cops isn't a crime.

It's funny, you respond to that, but decided not to provide your thoughts on the incident were talking about.

I've been too busy lately to get too deep into these topics, but I've followed a few of the threads here and there. I posted that because knowing the law might just save your ... one day.

Regarding the incident you're talking about: I think both the officer and Patrick could have handled that situation better. There is a lot of blame to go around.

As usual you did not comprehend.

Maybe you can read minds as to what someone is thinking but the real world can not.
The Cop did some bad police work but to say it was because he is racist is just foolish.

If he said I am pulling you over because I hate Blacks, you got him! Racism.

If he shows a history of pulling over minorities and harassing them, you got him. Racism.

But a guy does a bad job and you want to call him a Racist is only Just and Legal in your world, not ours.

The Precedent you are setting is it is Racist to pull over a Black man. Not in America, at least not yet.

This showed up on the op-ed pages of our local rag. Interesting read.



Police, race, and some practical steps

A FEW DAYS ago I spoke with a friend who is a retired cop. He was on his way to a forum on race, policing, and community relations at a local, predominantly African-American church. He is African-American.

He told me he was proud of his service as a police officer. And he told me that “90 percent of cops, no maybe more, are great cops.” But, he said, a small percentage of those who become cops should not be cops at all.

And then he told me about the time he was arrested and how he was in cuffs in about two minutes — after a routine traffic stop. He was cleared; the charges were dropped, but it shook him up.

He said that a police chief might have the highest and best of intentions, but getting enlightened attitudes to filter down to all the officers on his force would always be a tough job.

If you want to see if your police force is progressing on race, he said, or even whether a tragic incident is predictable, ask two questions: How does the force treat black cops? And: Do black and white cops, who are not partners, have dinner or lunch together?

There are not enough command officers in the Toledo Police Department, this gentleman said. But worse, black and white officers do not know each other.

I have to wonder aloud, again, would it not be useful for TPD officers, and city workers in general, along with parishioners at downtown and center city churches, to engage in the “Dialogue for Change” program, or some variation of it? We don’t know each other very well, white and black folks, and we need to talk more to fix this. It’s not a police problem; it’s an American problem.

I also spoke, a few days ago, with Oregon Police Chief Mike Navarre. As most people know, he is Toledo’s former chief, as well. He talked about how we can make cops and the innocent people they police more safe. He emphasized four things:

1.) Recruitment

You have to get the right people.

He used almost the exact phrase my cop friend did: Some people are just not cut out to be cops.

You have to screen those people out, but also be able to recruit from a wide sociological swath, Chief Navarre said. We need to widen the net, but even as we expand the pool, tighten the selection process. Not easy.

Many more types of people, Mr. Navarre added, should consider the possibility of being recruited to be cops. But they need the right motivation as well as psychological and physical profile.

Police chiefs need wide discretion, he added, so they can hire young people who had minor infractions as kids.

2.) Training

Mr. Navarre is convinced of the importance of rigorous training. It has to be more than classroom stuff, he said. He told me that the FBI does “reality-based training” and “scenario-based” training. Both are quite useful, he believes.

A huge part of training, the chief believes, as Toledo Chief George Kral also maintains, is communicating — the art of saying to the person stopped: This is what I need from you, and this is what you can expect from me. And saying both things in a respectful way.

Some cops will think this is Kumbaya stuff. Actually it is prevention of escalation and violence technique.

3.) Fitness

The chief believes in a continuing emphasis on — indeed requirement of — physical fitness.

He doesn’t like out-of-shape cops. He says a cop in good shape is less likely to use a gun.

4.) Manpower

Finally, from his work with police chiefs on the state level, the chief has concluded that too many small police departments are not properly manned. And police officers with adequate back-up make fewer mistakes.

If one man is covering the whole town from midnight to 8 a.m., the town is not big enough to have a police department, he said. Some small town departments, he believes, should be merged with other towns, or shut down and town policing turned over to the county sheriff.

Bill Bratton, who has just retired as New York City’s top cop, and who, legitimately, could be called a law enforcement genius, had three great principles — in Boston, New York City, and L.A.: Comprehensive training and re-training for police officers; enforcing social norms that uphold neighborhood integrity and street viability; and recruiting cops who look like the people they police. Mr. Bratton is high on practical steps, derived from the craft of policing, like Mike Navarre’s. He also gets pretty feisty when “activists” bash cops or get in the faces of the cops who are protecting the activists’ right to protest.

In the United States, in the election year of 2016, we are loath to admit that two ideas usually set against each other can both be true. But of course, that is the truth about truth — it is more often binary than uniform.

● Being a cop is the noblest and toughest thing in the world.

There is also a systematic racism at work in our society, often manifested in the administration of justice.

● We need more dialogue between the races and, yes, more sensitivity about race on all sides.

But even more we need honest dialogue. Not politically correct talking around each other.

● As much as we need dialogue, we also need to focus on the kind of sound and practical steps Mr. Navarre describes.

Two things can be true: Black lives matter and blue lives matter.

And so do the not-so-small investments we make in our safety forces and best policing practices.

Keith C. Burris is a columnist for The Blade.


http://www.toledoblade.com/Keith-Burris/2016/08/07/Police-race-and-some-practical-steps.html

I also wonder if out of shape cops are more likely to use their weapons?

Because, ya know, they are out of shape.

Or if people would like you know, not run or fight it wouldnt matter what shape they are in. Maybe ya know, instead of punching a cop and running, take your ticket and go home....just a thought

I know this is a waste of time, but it makes me feel better from time to time.

Your post was interesting and informative but this one right here...



Had my fingers burned on that one two many times!

Your problem, no longer mine!

Nuff said.

The wages of running is death. I never knew that?

Because people support a police state, then whine about big government.

So run = justification to shoot?

That's not what he said. Not even close, swish.

Cooperating and making it safer for yourself and the police when the police want to talk to you doesn't equate to a police state. And the few times people have appeared to cooperate and ended up getting injured or killed anyway, almost everybody wants the police held accountable.. Most people oppose asset forfeiture, most oppose no-knock warrants, most oppose privacy violations...

Your rhetoric on this is a bit over the top and generally in response to the fringe few..

Sure it does.

Y'all want 100% obedience to police force.

Can't ask why. Just accept the ticket like a good little dog

Just take whatever the cops tell you to do. No questions asked

That's not over the top. That's clear as day. Look at the posters that already defended the cops over the video I posted

Obey.

Yet I'm suppose to believe that when it comes crunch time, y'all won't fold to big government?

Your rhetoric shows I'm not over the top. Not even a bit.

Why the heck would you even want a cop who can't keep up with the physical aspects of his job? People have became too politically correct these days. We want fat cops. Ha.

Fat cops matter

We've been down this road before, if you can't tell me from whoever "Y'all" is, I'm not going to spend 20 minutes writing a post to explain it.

Just lump me in with anybody who favors a white dominated fascist police state I guess.. I'm tired of arguing about it.

Still makes me wonder though why you have said I'm one of the posters on here that you respect if that's really how you think I feel...

My typical line to a cop who had pulled me over went something like:

"Hey cop, how would you like it if I yanked that gun out of your holster and pulled of a few rounds up your..."

That's the key with cops. You gotta let 'em know who's boss.

I got out of so many traffic tickets that way.

Sorry it took me so long to respond, been slammed at work. I guess I don't think about this so much as a social issue but maybe it is.

So here is my current thought - why doesn't Obama speak out on it more, I just don't get it. I'm no fan of Obama, but I don't think he has really been all that bad - pretty much the status quo of the last 20 or so years of leadership (maybe longer). That said, he has the perfect opportunity to show some leadership with this. Here we have arguably the most powerful politician (possibly person) in the world, who happens to be black - why isn't he trying to bring everyone together for meaningful discussion about this topic? Maybe he is and I'm missing it, don't know. All that I know is that it is a powder keg out there right now and something needs to be done - a perfect time to show some leadership and possibly a great way to exit his presidency.

He had a townhall type thing about it after all the crap hit the fan. I didnt watch it so I cant tell you what he said. Although I heard it was balanced to both sides.

I heard about that as well, but that isn't enough. This is something a person in his position may actually be able to make a difference with!

I watched it. It was a decent first step, nothing ground breaking was said.. in the ratings it got crushed by Big Brother... so it's hard to say that we, as a culture, want to take this seriously when the President has a town hall on the topic and almost nobody watches it.... then only about half of registered voters will vote...

Damn!

yea its rough.

i remember a few years back, this straight A kid got killed because he refused to join a gang.

Yep Chiraq is no joke. Very toxic city.

I just spent a couple days in Chicago last month. Had a great time. I ate and hung out at Buddy Guy's new place on a Saturday night. It was phenomenal.

Clearly you wasn't hanging out with Daquan and Tyrone, though.

I wouldnt be able to convince you either way, so why mention it?

I remember in HS I used to hang out in the summer time with some of the East side guys from the team who were all 10-5 guys and we would work out at Glenville Rec and hang out at The Sahara. One time a dude asked them " Why the eff do you bring the white boy around ?" My dude Dion told him " to talk to the police, and to get us the good weed"

You are young, so you may not remember this, but back in the day when Bone Thugs first hit( went to HS with all of them) they were filming a video in Cleveland and a couple people got shot . Dion was the one who got shot in the butt cheek . LMAO

Lol bro it works though.

If you get a white boy in your crew, cops don't bother us....unless they think we kidnapped him lmao

See, we can be useful in the black community!

So you need a token white guy?

Uhhhh...friends with benefits?

lol never mind that sounds weird.

Yea, I'm not going there...... not that there is anything wrong with that.

I was the creme filling when I was younger LOL I had two good friends when I was younger who were both African American. When we all three spent the night at each others houses I had to sleep in the middle. Oreo Cookie

Didn't know where to post this and didn't want to start a new thread, but man...........this story is weird:

What the hell?

LOL...........that wasn't you, was it, bro?

I fly straight

Don't front.
You know you play for Team Rainbow.....

Thoughts on Baltimore police report?

http://www.wsj.com/articles/justice-depa...ment-1470772610

http://www.vox.com/2016/8/10/12429214/ba...xual-misconduct

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/editorials/la-ed-baltimore-20160811-snap-story.html

Some people have been fired. However, when BLM hear about Chicago, their counter argument is Baltimore. This is a textbook example of a corrupt police department and they need to clean house.

If we audited our municipal and local law enforcement agencies, I think we would be shocked to see what we find.

If we kept track of how our welfare money is spent, I would venture to say that some of you would be shocked.

No doubt. I was actually thinking of responding to my post and saying, "If we audited anything, people would be shocked with the response."... Which makes me wonder why we don't audit everything.

because then all the money that slips out to various pockets might be revealed.

No one in power wants that.

LOL............very true.

Then we would have to audit the auditors because they would be skimming too.

For two reasons....

First, nobody would trust the audit. The government would have to control the audit so nobody would trust the results.. so it would be a waste of money...

Second, the unknown keeps us guessing, fighting, and ultimately gives them more control. If we could audit all things and come up with real results then we could come up with real solutions and the politicians wouldn't be able to scare us into voting for them.... neither side wants us to actually know what the truth is.

But then wouldn't we have to audit the auditors doing the auditing?

yup, and before you know it we have a bunch of govt agencys whos job is to keep track of other agencys and before you know it only like 40% of every tax dollar goes where it is supposed to...oh wait, I think we already do that.

Your ending bashing Trump is kind of ironic...lacks character...read "Crisis of Character" by G Byrne, just the excerpts would make most puck putting your life on line for nice, sweet, rational Hillary AND her lying husband....none of us are perfect/especially me...but the Clinton's both are completely political/ meaning they will do or say anything to further THEIR agenda....perfect example of her double talk was her response to Bengazi FBI directors statements...he plainly stated she lied...then she claimed she told the full truth...WOW, the Clintons have been practicing for years....guess our country MIGHT handle it, hope it will, becuase the IDIOT the Republicans have on ballot surely can't win.....GO Browns!!!!

I have a question for you: Did you ever attend school?

I'm surprised there hasn't been any discussion on here about what has been going on in Milwaukee. There has been destruction and rioting going on there for days. There are videos of incidents that could only be described as chaos and hate crimes. I won't post them here due to the profanity and content, but they shouldn't be too hard to find.

This article came up on my Facebook feed. I do not know who this Matt Walsh is-- the only Matt Walsh I know of was an employee of the New England Patriots (I'm going to go ahead and assume that's a different Matt Walsh). This is a pretty sharp take. I don't agree with a few things, most notably labeling someone based off of one picture (even one where he's pointing a gun at the camera with his finger on the trigger... sorry, all the major gun safety rules are being violated here and it irks me). Some of the rhetoric is a little over the top. They aren't words that I would use but I don't fault the guy for being angry. He makes some good points.

Anyway: https://www.facebook.com/MattWalshBlog/

I've been following the story. I wonder when sane America is going to say "enough is enough."

Enough is enough. It has gotten completely out of control. You are right about people coming together, not taking sides, and working things out peacefully and collectively (not your exact words, but close enough to what you've written on here). Man.. I worry about where society is going.

Sane america has already said enough is enough. It's the crazy people who believe it's OK to shoot at cops, try to run cops over, stab cops, punch, hit, slap, and spit on cops, run from cops, cuss out and ignore cops and have the cops stand there and get shot, run over, stabbed, punched, hit, slapped, spit on, run from, ignored, and abused and think that's normal.

Not only that, a lot of these protesters don't even live in the area. They come in and create havoc.

Groups of blacks are randomly picking whites to beat up. WTH? They are destroying property and abusing the police.

And as of right now, the guy who got shot sure as hell looks guilty. Are we at the point that you can not be apprehended by police if you are black......no matter what you did?

Give me a break!

Insanity...

Haus, are you honestly surprised? I'm not.

This is the monster that people have created, including members here who have looked the other way when it comes to the blatantly false narratives of BLM and other similar social justice groups. Instead of holding those groups accountable to tell the truth and responsible for the lies, they chose to attack anyone who tried to point those things out as racists and Uncle Toms.

Rioting, murder, destruction of property and hurting the people you say you represent, and trying to make martyrs out of the low lifes who victimize their own neighborhoods... this is the modern Civil Rights Movement

*slow clap*

Isn't this just identical to Ferguson?

lol there's actually blogs called "what is Matt Walsh wrong about today?" Sorry, I just got a laugh because I thought a Facebook comment was merely joking.

As if your profession has no responsibility either.

Ain't it funny how blacks always have to admit fault from our worst, but you never have to?

But I get it. People on this board can trash blacks and accuse us of double standards while y'all actively engage in double standards.

I should just be a good little colored boy and let y'all talk trash about us. Cause cops are good people and we all know everything is the darky's fault.

Swish, they just need to make documentaries for all falsely accused black people. Hey, it worked for the "Making a murderer" guy, but he was white so idk.

Like I said, I didn't know who this Matt Walsh was. I wrote that because I had a suspicion, based on his writing style, that he might not be the most popular guy out there.

He made a lot of good points in that write up though. What is going on is absolutely crazy. I would encourage people to do a little digging around to find some videos for themselves. Most mainstream media gave a hint as to what was going on, but only a hint. The most damaging and hurtful stuff was omitted.

I have been following this stuff for a while now so I probably shouldn't be surprised. It still caught me off guard some-- the hatred was so blatant and what some of those protesters were doing is so against what they are supposedly for that it's hard to reconcile their views and their actions.

I think like my views are kind of in line with what the Civil Rights leaders had in mind decades ago. That is equality, everybody is held to the same standard, people are judged not by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I feel like having those views and actually upholding them makes me a right-winger by default these days.

nevermind

This is not protest. This is criminal activity that should result in arrests.

Has the time come to actually define what "protest" is and is not. These people are societal misfits who need to be arrested and fined. Take money from their welfare check, employment or other government subsidy. Should be fairly easy.

so if its ok for black folks to kill random white folks because a cop killed a black guy is it ok for white folks to kill random black folks if a black guy kills a white guy?

Im just asking because your logic doesnt make sense.

This dude pointed a gun at a cop and was killed right? Why does that surprise or outrage anyone? If I point a gun at a cop, I would fully expect to get shot. If my brother, sister cousin, mom, or dad pointed a gun at a cop, I would expect them to get shot...thats sorta how it works.

Sorry bro, but IMO it won't matter

Look at some of the posters here. They seem to take personal delight in trashing blacks.

But the moment I fire back, I'm the bad guy. And that's how it works in real life.

I didn't say a word about the problems going on right now because the black dude deserved to be shot and those people are rioting over nothing.

But as soon as Haus posted, I already knew the direction the thread was going.

And then the usual suspects followed suit. At this point, it doesn't matter what happens.

Haus talks about confirmation bias when it comes to people against trump. Well look at the confirmation bias when it comes to these posters against blacks.

At this point, I'm wondering if blacks really are just better off moving back to Africa. It's clear as hell we ain't wanted here.

Read my response to candy.

well, there goes the Olympics then

Athletics is the only time people wanna "unite" and cheer on people who are just "Americans".

Other than that, need to keep those blacks in the hood where they belong.

smh

Yeah man, it's our fault that this is happening in Milwaukee.

Swish, it's not just the rioting. It's the rioters and mobs of black people who are on video specifically hunting down whites. "They white! Beat they ***! Beat. They. ***!!!!!!" Cars smashed in the street because the driver was white. Businesses burned down. One chick got in people's faces and told them to take it to the suburbs and burn their **** down. A white kid got shot in the neck for no other reason than he was white.

A lot of this is on video. I have actually refrained from posting the most incendiary takes. I haven't posted any video of this even though I'm positive they would prove me right. Part of it is because most of these videos are loaded with swearing but mostly it's because I realize it's already an edgy enough situation out there and I'd rather not escalate that any more than I already have in the past. If people are interested, they can dig around a bit. Don't expect to find much on CNN but it's definitely out there.

Exactly how I feel.

That sucks.

It also sucks when White's finally get treated the same way blacks have, doesn't it.

Guess you finally understand what it's like to be targeted just because of your skin tone.

The fact that y'all had to learn the hard way is pathetic.

Them poor kids just want to be able to loot, riot, and stuff without being bothered.

Im sure burning down your own neighborhood will do a lot to ease police and racial tensions.

Do you honestly think that anyone is going to learn anything or change anything because of these riots or randomly attacking white people?

Grrrrrrrrrrrrr............Never mind.

Apparently not. But yet somehow on the flip side, you expect blacks to treat cops with respect after the history of the way they've treated us since slavery ended.

Do as I say, not as I do, right?

So if I am mugged by a black guy it is ok to treat every black guy I meet like the one that mugged me back in 99?

Why not? Apparently it's ok to judge all the blacks because of the few who riot.

Might as well. Have at it bro. It's a free country after all.

Much as its OK to judge all cops by the actions of few?

Much like its OK to judge all whites by the actions of few?

Much like its OK to treat all whites as if they were slave owners?

You wanna talk double standards? Hello pot...

Wow, trip down memory lane. You just took me back to many conversations I had with my grandfather about 30 years ago. Thanks for bringing those memories up.

Now, onto the substance of your point.

There are thousands of interactions between black folks and the police on a daily basis in this country. The vast majority of them are handled appropriately by both sides. In some incidences the black person becomes aggressive, displays a weapon, etc. In most of those instances the black person is taken down physically and sometimes they get shot, sometimes they manage to shoot the police.... In other instances cops have been overly aggressive and used excessive force and even killed black folks who were of no real threat. In each and every case, my only wish is that the real truth will come out and the right people will be held accountable. I do not view myself as having a double standard, I want the law applied appropriately to EVERYBODY. (and I get it that you don't think it is in most cases) The one thing I do know is that responding in the way they have so often, by burning and destroying property, getting violent with innocent people, looting, etc. (especially before the facts have even been sorted out).. does absolutely zero to make me want to fight harder for your cause. I want those people arrested like common criminals. I'm really trying to see this from your perspective and on some levels I think I do, but it will never be as personal to me as it is to you. I want you to try to see it from my perspective... the rioting, the looting, the burning buildings, the violence.. the ONLY thing that accomplishes is to reinforce the stereotypes in those who already have this fear or distrust of the black community. I don't see a single positive thing that comes from it. It does get people's attention but it does not draw people to your cause..

I don't treat White's as Slavs owners.
I certainly treat cops that way though.

I'll change when they do. Because blacks have tried the nice polite act respectable way it it still didn't work.

You know we once had a topic where some 60 year old woman said, in an op-ed, she judges all black people based on the one who mugged her a decade earlier. A lot of the people on this forum stood up for her, or at least her thought process.

Hearing that 1/8 of working aged black males in Wisconsin were locked up and the majority of them coming from the protest zones makes me understand completely why they do not trust the police... Especially since the video hasn't been released yet.

This reminds me of a thread Lurker made on here not too long ago. Here's the relevant part of his post:



Make of it what you will. He and I may have had a different upbringing but we certainly share a similar attitude.

I stood up for her thought process and still do.. and she didn't judge black people based on it.. she just had an inherent fear based on that incident.

I have a cousin that was attacked and torn up by a stray dog when she was 3, she grew up very afraid of dogs she didn't know. She's in her 40s and still gets very edgy around dogs.. that's how the human brain works. It makes associations. If the mugger was a Vietnamese midget, she would have made a different association... You can deny how the human brain works all day if you want to make people look bad... but that's how it works.

What you just told me is that it doesn't matter what we do.

People are gonna come up with any way to enforce their stereotypes on us.

So why bother

And? I don't share the same view.

So all well.

The human brain is wired for a society that predates written launges. Many thought processes that human's possess are deeply flawed. Make no mistake, I am no different.

Read Think and Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. There are some overriding themes in the book and one of them is that thoughts tend to eventually manifest themselves in reality.

A lot of it is geared toward having the mindset to accomplish some goal and make money (which I figure you may be interested in as well) but it can certainly apply here. If you have this resentment and an urge to strike out against police and the system, it is bound to happen eventually.

Lurker's post is powerful because it shows that you don't have to have my experiences or my viewpoints on police and such for the part about having a positive attitude to still be helpful.

I'm not reading anything.

How about everybody treats people the same. How about that? How about I'll treat cops with respect when I stop getting searched for drugs.

I'll call for blacks to stop defending criminals when you tell White's to stop defending bad cops.

But lemme guess, that's too much to ask for.

I'm tired of y'all trying to tell me and others to stop judging all when y'all can't even get your own people to do the same.

I ain't reading a damn thing.

I got vers telling me to stop acting like this and call out bad blacks, but he won't tell the cop on this board to call out his own profession?

Do as I say, not as I do.

I am all for treating people the same. Implicit in this is that hate crimes should carry the same gravitas, regardless of what groups the perpetrators and victims belong to.

Your comments about not reading anything are very naive. At least say that you're too busy or something and maybe you'll look into it at some point.

It's a good book. I have many more recommendations that I'm sure you would love.

So you rather me lie to your face instead of telling you the truth that I'm not gonna read it?

Boy oh boy. I thought we like the truth around here.

Why do I even bother... I should have known this would be the result

Exactly how I feel when it comes to any conversation with you.

Funny a guy that brags about his drug use complaining that cops search him for drugs...

I wasn't using when I was active.

But gotta find a way to take that shot, right Arps?

Just following your lead...you do see the irony though right?

The irony would've been valid if I was a user while active duty.

Or if I drive around the streets looking like I have a blown radiator inside my truck. Then yea.

But since I don't...well....but yes I do see your point.

LMFAO

It's funny right?

The fact that you can't even respond to me directly anymore. But you seem to have plenty to say.

Yes, some will. I've seen a bunch of stuff on Twitter ripping folks for posting articles or videos of cops interacting well with blacks.. saying things like "As if that makes it all better".. these blacks want reasons to hate cops, they don't want to see good cops doing good things. So this "why bother" notion applies to both sides. Why should cops try to do better if SOME people aren't going to acknowledge it?

As for me, I can look at one black guy doing the right thing and respect him.. I can look at another black guy looting and burning a convenience store and think he belongs in jail. So I don't get this notion that "it doesn't matter what WE do." and "the way they look at US"... I thought the whole purpose of civil rights was to get folks like me to look at and understand the difference between Swish and the dude burning down a gas station? That they aren't the same.. while they both may be black, they aren't the same person... Isn't that the point?

Apparently not the the people in power.

And the followers that they have.

Or maybe they want to see changes in a judicial system that wasn't built for them to be rectified to coexist with them.

I think some folks (of all races) look for reasons to go be hooligans.
Team wins a title...riot and loot
someone get killed by a cop...riot and loot
Hurricane ....loot

Yes, but do you also think they could have a valid reason for being upset over the judicial system?

Of course, but that is not the answer. Nor will it get the results they are after. Im not sure how burning your neighbors house down does anything productive. Heck, it doesnt even express frustration in the correct direction.

Then what's the correct expression?

Should blacks start going into white neighborhoods and burning that [censored] down? Will that finally get y'all to change the justice system?

Should we go to war?

Seems like the only way to get anything done in this country. War.

We didn't fight back when y'all sprayed us with water hoses, had your German sheppards attack us, made us drink in different water fountains, hit us in the back of the head with bricks, and lynched us if we so much as talked to a white woman.

We was peaceful, and that STILL DIDNT WORK.

So obviously, we have to go to war, because AMERICA, the GOVERNMENT, and WHITE people taught us that the ONLY way to get anything accomplished is war, violence, bloodshed.

If that's what it takes, then so freaking be it. This country cares more about fixing the Middle East than its own damn citizens. Y'all care more about a damn gorilla and lion than y'all do about minorities in this country. Y'all care more about sending black people to prison than y'all do about educating us.

So if it's war that will fix or determine what happens in this country. Then so be it.

If you don't want war, then tell these freaking white people to fix the damn justice system.

We've been dealing with this BS since 1865. We're fed the hell up.

I didnt do any of those things Swish. You keep accusing people of doing things that they have no connection to because they are white. You are being racist. For someone who wants barriers dropped and people to stop being put in groups you sure seem to do an heck of a lot of it. More than anyone else on here.

You don't speak out against it. Which makes you part of the problem.

Do I need to post the definition of a racist, again?

But see, we want the justice system fixed, and yet you deflect and cry about something else.

It lets me know you're the racist, because you see nothing wrong with anything that's going on against minorities.

j/c

This thread sickens me. It's why society has delved into the mess we see today. There are some facts we all need to face which some seem unable to do.

There most certainly is a double standard in our justice system. It's between the haves and the have nots.

Poor black neighborhoods are targeted by law enforcement.

There are bad cops. What people call good cops don't do enough to help root out the bad cops.

Most cops are good.

You can't condone the actions of bad cops any more than you can condone those who loot and resort to violence.

Blacks targeting whites isn't any less racist than whites targeting blacks.

If people would just own up to their part of the problem, maybe we could begin a starting point in solving problems rather than escalating them.

How is that? I am absolutely against police abusing their authority. I am against ANYONE being treated poorly because of their race or ethnicity.

Agreed. I just wanted to make sure.

Look man, if you don't want to hold the people you allow to represent you accountable for anything, that's on you. At this point I honestly could care less. Nearly ever incident held up as evidence of police brutality and racism, they've been proven with facts and evidence to be no such thing. Yet social justice warriors keep trying to make martyrs and Saints out the likes of Michael Brown and this idiot in Milwaukee.

I'm not asking you to take ownership of the crap the worst do. You didn't do it. But that's my point: I just don't know why you and others keep allowing social justice groups to hold people like Brown and this idiot up as examples of what black people go through. The majority of people in this country know that every black person isn't out there slingin crack, shooting up the neighborhood, robbing people, fighting with cops, etc...

You, Clem, and Lurker have taken the time to (attempt) to share your experiences with the boards. It may not always seem like it, but I think most do appreciate it (more than those who don't anyway). But when we turn our attention away form the board to the national conversation... groups like BLM aren't telling the same story you guys are.

But that's just my $0.02 from the "outside" looking in.

How did gay people do it? Gay people have slowly and methodically been overcoming obstacles for decades.. to a point now where they are kind of the "favorite" special interest group among many... they did it without war. They did it without violence. How did they do it? 50 years ago if you had a gay family member you didn't dare tell anybody because of the shame it would bring on your family, couldn't find a job if you were openly gay (anywhere but in the entertainment industry)... 25 years ago you might whisper it to close friends and family who would all immediately wonder if you secretly had AIDS..... now they hold a parade.

Their battle isn't over, they still have things to overcome... they realize that there are still people in this country who look at them disapprovingly, who are afraid of them for their gayness, and some who outright hate them and wish they were dead.. yet they continue to move forward, to make progress, to change hearts and minds of people who NEVER thought they would have their mind changed... How are they doing that... without war?

Speaking for me and me only, and I think you know me well enough to believe what I say I really feel. I trash any idiots who argue with the cops then bitch and moan when they catch hell. White, black, red, yellow, tan, purple, or green. If your STUPID enough to be an ass with the cops you deserve the beat down you get.

I agree, and I think a lot of this is why Trump and his empty message has drawn so many. People ARE tired of this crap, and unwittingly think Trump is the answer.

I agree w/that, but I need to say that I sure as hell don't think he is the answer. I think he is as racist as those I just railed against.

Two wrongs never make a right.

And I gotta add something because I can see how some of my remarks will be misinterpreted.

I have played sports w/blacks. I have coached w/them. I have coached them. I have taught them. I have had contact w/the parents. I have worked for blacks.

The vast majority of the black people I have come into contact w/are hard working, honorable, and decent folk. They are not the types to excuse the nonsense that is going on in places like Milwaukee.

It just galls me when certain blacks give others a bad reputation.

Black folks are just like white folks in that there are many damn fine ones and a few rotten pieces of crap that make life difficult for everyone else.

I had a long response to this written up. It was thorough, well written, and pretty damn harsh. I read it over and deleted it. I'm just saying this because I want to let you know that I'm making an attempt to not escalate things. I'm trying man. It made a lot of good points but it would not have helped the atmosphere at all.

This is something we all have to figure out, we're all Americans and we are all going to have to figure this out together. Just think about that, whether someone lives in downtown Cleveland or Strongsville or wherever, people are people and they want what is best for their families and communities, even if there is sometimes disagreement on how to get there.

j.c

Lot of different issues going on in this thread. Almost too many to parse.

1. If posters read Swish's thread literally, then they can't hear the frustration that is fueling his words. I hear it, because I've felt it. The frustration transcends the narrow scope of this thread's subject, because race is everywhere in our culture, whether some of us are able to see it or not. Being able to see it is a subject for another time, but trust me- it's worth a visit.

2. A short visit to America's 60's history will inform you that MLK's noble efforts were paid lip service until America's cities erupted in flame and foment. White America was content to invite MLK to 'The Adult's Table' and listen attentively, but America Herself needed the combination of MLK, Stokely Carmicheal, Bobby Seal, Huey Newton... and an entire 'Summer Of Unrest' [u]to actually do something[/u] that actually mattered. So, in this narrowly defined depiction of American History, Swish is/was right.

We only truly respond when $#!+ gets dire.

Newton's laws of physics are in play when dealing with social conventions, too. Inertia is a powerful force... and inertia had always been the defining factor in America's race relations- until the 1960's. American "Negroes" had simply had enough of systemic mistreatment... and demanded that Their Country finally take substantive steps to honor the words immortalized in her Bill Of Rights.

If MKL hadn't sat down at the table, none of our current national gains would have been possible. If cities hadn't burned, complacency would have slowed MKL's social progress... because NOTHING spurs Americans on like an Existential Crisis. Historically, it has ALWAYS been when Americans produce their best product. We're stupid in that way: we 'do it dumb,' until the $#!+ hits the fan. Then, we become Olympian. I wish we would grow out of our adolescence, as a nation.

3. I support the initial premise behind Black Lives Matter, because our nation has a long and tortured history of citizen abuse that went virtually unchecked for almost 200 years. That fact cannot be denied. The basic message has always been relevant, as far as I'm concerned, because there is a paucity of voices speaking up for those who are on the receiving end of such abuse.

4. My 85/15 Theory: in any demographic, one will find that roughly 85% of that population exists withing a "scale of convention": some will be slightly better than the baseline norm, some will be slightly over it... but that 85% make up the general populace. Then, there are the other 15% who distinguish themselves either far above the group or far below the group. The Olympics are shining examples of the +15%. Looters, rioters, organized criminals, meth dealers, Dylann Roofs, ISIS, Skinheads... they are the lowest 15%. Within each group, the 85/15 breakdown can be repeatedly applied: only 15% of Olympians take home medals. Only 15% of criminals become Charles Manson, Timothy McVeigh or Osama Bin Laden.

It's entirely possible that BLM movement arose in response to the historic actions of Law Enforcement's "bottom 15%" since the days of Jim Crow Law. In that case, they are totally justified, because those Jim Crow 15% are 'effing it up' for the other 85 of respectable cops, nationwide. Same can be said of the Milwaukee miscreants who don't represent a single thing about what I like about the BLM movement.

I've applauded DeRay McKesson for putting a face on the BLM movement, but I've also taken issue with his unwillingness to call out the differences between the peaceful demonstrators we saw in Dallas and the mob we saw in WI. His message is diluted for me, because his principles are unclear/undefined.

Now- he may not feel that it's his responsibility to clear up misconceptions- and that's totally OK with me, but I'm also old enough to know how this [censored] really works. If one aspires to be a 'MKL Lite,' one must be willing to unequivocally state what one represents. Make a stand/say what you represent. McK hasn't done that to my satisfaction. I feel compelled to hold him and other New Leaders to the same standards that MLK exemplified. You must be down for something, even if that means you must separate yourself from those who have co-opted your cause for short-term gain. I personally draw a firm line between social activism and anarchy, because I want my message to reach rank and file Americans... the only people who can initiate true, sweeping social change.


In this country, Power has always been abused by the well-connected... until they are confronted by the sheer mass of people demanding that Right makes Might. The coal miners' unions of the 50's, 60's and 70's played the same game against Power just like Black Lives Matter movement seeks to do 2016. Marie Antoinette is immortalized for all time with her classic expression of total disconnect: "Let them eat cake."


Until the most coherent and credible voices are heard drawing clear distinctions between such groups, a large number of Americans will feel no need to see ANY such distinction. It's why the original message of BLM has been so easily dismissed/unheeded by some. It doesn't help that folks like Shawn Hannity and Bill O'Reilly (paid spinmeisters) have such an easy job of selling frightened 70-year-old Euro-Americans that BLM is nothing less than a totally subversive, evil group. All they need do is plant the seed in their viewers' heads, and roll tape of 'Low Black 15%-ers' to sell their polluted message. Works every time.

5. The very nature of news coverage is to expose the unusual, the extraordinary, the sensational. It's why some have such a skewed, dystopian view of the world and current events. ISIL makes headlines, but volunteer outreach social workers, American Marines helping to build schools on sand as part of their deployment, Doctors Without Borders, and activists like Malala Yousefzai get NO front-page headlines when doing the difficult, vital and unheralded work they do.

There is Good Work being done in every major American city to address the ills outlined in this thread... but those efforts are relegated to the middle of Section B of the local newspaper, some in-depth investigative reporting on some obscure NPR program, or the last minute of some local 11:00 PM newscast, when they need a 'feel-good human interest story as filler. It's no wonder that so many (otherwise good, decent) people think the world's a $#!++y place to live.

"Dog bites Man" isn't news.

So- if a person living in Salina, Kansas has only met 5 Black people in his entire life, and gets his understanding of Clemdawg's complex, nuanced, Half-Black/Half-White/married to an Irish/German wife/member of a Civil War-era progressive social pioneer family/specialist 'niche career' life from nightly 6:30 National news broadcasts and some on-air op-eds by Fox News... what conclusions will he draw?

Unless he shared this message board with me, he might easily conclude that Clemdawg loots burned-out liquor stores, sells crack in alleys, has a dozen hoes bringing him nightly profits and fights with police...
...when he isn't putting cellos and violins in the hands of underprivileged inner-city youth, and playing playing Bach, Brahms, Beethoven and Brubeck for society's 'Top 15-Percenters.'

Do NONE of you now see what we're up against?
It's literally everywhere.

_____________________

Euro-American Immigrants created this problem for themselves, when they declared their independence... and then imported easily-identified slaves to do their heavy lifting for them. I'm certain that they never envisioned an America where those pieces of 'dark-skinned farm machinery' could actually have a voice in their country's politics... but here we are.

50 years after I marched for Martin's cause as a little kid, we still have these fights on an 2016 internet message board. We should all be better than this, by now.

__________________


I can't do these threads like I used to any more.

I've lost the will, desire, and strength to preach the Gospel According To Clemdawg.

They bring up the most bilious parts of my personality, and make me want to lash out at folks whom I would otherwise enjoy. They make me lean toward never attending tailgates, because of the baggage they attach to my Browns fandom. They make me think about the hours I've spent trying to share my life in an effort to enlighten... and they make me think that 85% of that time was wasted. Time I've spent foolishly, because nothing ever really changes.

The arguments never change.
Positions are entrenched.
Heels are dug in.
The same rhetoric gets played out time and again.

You 'entrenched' Dawgs have been effected by NOTHING that we have been trying to tell you. You are unreachable. So be it.


I have one more post after this... and then, I'm pretty sure that I'm done- perhaps for good.

Y'all can go on with your bad selves. You've shown me that my work here is done- for better... or for naught.

Vaya con Dios, the entire lot of you.


Peace/out,
A person who just can't tread water in this cesspool any more.

Not long ago, Becky Deen Tai would never have imagined herself attending a civic meeting about police officers’ treatment of African Americans.

She’d grown up a white girl in a family with roots in the Deep South, and only recently had become “more aware of how unaware I am,” she said, later recalling her astonishment at learning via social media that black mothers often lecture their sons on how to avoid being targeted by law enforcement.

Yet Tai had felt compelled to attend the recent forum in Silver Spring, Md., after watching a stream of amateur videos in the news showing fatal encounters between police and blacks across the country. There was Ferguson, Mo., South Carolina, Minnesota — that very week, in fact, a video had flashed of a North Miami policeman shooting and wounding a black male caregiver, even as he lay on the ground with his hands raised.


“Now they’re taping it and it’s harder to stay away,” said Tai, 53, a special education teacher who moved to Silver Spring from Atlanta a year ago. “I didn’t have to think about the problem because I didn’t have to see it. Now it’s in front of me.”

As the nation’s first African American president completes his second term, the country’s racial divide has grown more pronounced, bursting into full view during heated debates over issues such as income inequality, jobs, educational opportunities and, perhaps most prominently, how the criminal justice system treats blacks.


At the same time, videos documenting police officers shooting African Americans — widely shared on social media — are forcing the nation’s white population to confront head-on evidence suggesting that blacks still face an onerous set of challenges.

The videos’ influential role recalls how television news footage shaped white public opinion during the civil rights movement, when cameras captured Southern police officers using hoses and dogs to control black demonstrators. A few years later, television coverage of the Vietnam War had a similar galvanizing effect.

The change in sentiment is visible in a growing number of whites attending Black Lives Matter protests and staging rallies focused on racial justice, as well as the Black Lives Matter T-shirts worn by the mainly white Wyoming delegation at the Democratic National Convention. Yet in many cases, the evolution is far more subtle, surfacing in unspoken shifts in perspective, a change in the tenor of everyday interactions or desires to gain greater understanding.

Many whites remain intolerant in their racial views, yet recent polls have shown that a growing percentage of whites think that the country needs changes to give blacks parity with whites.

A Washington Post poll asking this question last year found 53 percent of whites saying more changes are necessary to ensure equal rights for black people, jumping from 39 percent before Michael Brown’s death in 2014. Concern about equality rose among both white men and women, those with and without college degrees, and among white conservatives and liberals.

The phrase Black Lives Matter first received national attention in summer 2014 and, since then, has become part of conversations on race in America. Here's how the phrase became a movement. (Claritza Jimenez, Julio Negron/The Washington Post)

The shift was not fleeting. An identical 53 percent of whites in a Pew Research survey this spring said more changes are needed to ensure equality. Dealings with police stood out as the area of greatest concern, with half of whites saying that blacks are treated less fairly in such encounters.

In interviews, some white Americans said that Trump’s rise and the overt racism and xenophobia voiced by some of his supporters have heightened their awareness of racial fissures.

But news reports about African Americans dying during encounters with officers have been especially jolting, providing whites a glimpse of what blacks long have insisted was commonplace.


Patricia Wudel is the executive director of Joseph’s House, which provides end-of-life care for homeless men and women in Washington. (Amanda Voisard/For The Washington Post

Patricia Wudel, 63, the white executive director of a hospice center for the homeless in the Adams Morgan neighborhood, said she realized that her sense of the African American experience was far too limited several years ago as she ate breakfast with colleagues after a Florida jury exonerated George Zimmerman in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

“I said, ‘I can’t believe they let that guy off,’ ” Wudel recalled. A black woman seated next to her, she said, “so close, our arms were touching — had tears coming down her face and she whispered, ‘I always knew he would.’ ”

“In that instant,” Wudel said, “I realized that her response surprised me, and I knew my world view was too small. And I knew I had to make room to talk to people.” As a result of her deliberations, Wudel said she felt compelled last year to attend the funeral of a stranger — Freddie Gray, the black man who suffered fatal injuries while in the custody of Baltimore police.

As she got out of her car in downtown Manassas, Va., a 68-year-old white woman said the incidents involving police and blacks were a reminder of the advantages available to her that African Americans don’t have. “I’m looking for ways to dig into white privilege, to become more cognizant of it,” said the woman, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because she said she fears retaliation from racist whites.

When an African American opens the door for her, the woman said, she finds herself making a mental note to be sure to open the door for a black person when there is the opportunity. She also told her neighbor — a black woman — to no longer refer to her as “Miss Beverly” because it made her uncomfortable.

As for the police, the woman said she is “rethinking” her long-held belief that stories of misconduct were the result of a few bad officers. “You hear about so many you have to wonder if it’s more than a few,” she said.


Alanna Mensing, 34, says she "feels sympathy for the mothers who have to worry that this is going to be their children’s future.” (Amanda Voisard/For The Washington Post)

A block away, Alanna Mensing, 34, who was walking with her 18-month-old son, said that when she takes the boy to play groups, she thinks about what black children will face when they grow up.

“A few years ago, that would never have occurred to me,” said Mensing, a music teacher. She said she becomes upset when she reads about racial incidents on social media.

“I feel insanely guilty about everything,” Mensing said. “I feel guilty that it’s not white people who are getting shot. It’s always black people.”

More to be done

In the 1950s, the driving force behind the civil rights movement was a nexus of black church and community leaders who organized protests such as the Montgomery bus boycott. All of the participants were African American.

It was not until 1960 when large numbers of whites became involved in the movement, joining sit-ins at a Woolworths in Greensboro, N.C. They joined the Freedom Riders through the South, attended the March on Washington in 1963, and traveled to Selma, Ala., in 1965 after Bloody Sunday.


Whites’ participation, said Taylor Branch, the historian who has written a widely praised history of the civil rights movement, helped disseminate the importance of the movement to the broader public.

“It meant a lot to have distinguished, highly credentialed white people submitting to the discipline of a movement run by black people,” Branch said. “There were some white people across the country who wouldn’t care about black people going to jail in the South. But they would care if some college students from Yale got beaten up or killed.”

Referring to current demonstrations against law enforcement, Branch said: “It’s vital to have white people involved in the issue of police justice because it makes it not purely a racial issue of black versus white. This is about right versus wrong.”

The echo of the civil rights movement is partly what drew Lisa Reed, 58, a paralegal, to attend the Silver Spring forum sponsored by the Montgomery County government last month. Before an audience of more than 400 people, African Americans stood and recalled what they described as unwelcome encounters with the police.

The evening’s most riveting moments included when a white woman recalled her recent outrage over seeing police officers pulling down the pants of a black man they had detained on the street.

“I kind of felt like the civil rights movement had passed me by, and I realize now that it hasn’t,” Reed said later. “There’s a lot to be done.”

While she looks for ways to become involved, Reed also revisits her own background growing up in Atlanta. Whether she likes it or not, she said, she was influenced by her father, a man she described as prejudiced who told her when she was 10 that Martin Luther King was assassinated because he was a “rabble rouser.”

“You can’t be raised with the level of isolation that I was raised with without absorbing certain prejudices,” she said. All these years later, she said, she finds herself aware of reflexive perceptions such as when she encounters a black attorney and thinks it’s unusual.

“It took a long time of me stopping my brain and telling myself that was a stereotype and to let it go,” she said. Instead, she tells herself: “This is a person who attended law school and has a family. This is not an exception. This is what black men do.”

‘I can do both’

Joel Teitelbaum, 77, a retired anthropologist, participated as a student in sit-ins for housing integration and civil liberties in Maryland in the 1950s and 60s. (Amanda Voisard/For The Washington Post)
Like Tai, Joel Teitelbaum, a white retiree who lives in the Washington suburbs, said he has become more focused on race after watching the videos of police shootings on the news.

“The nation has crossed the line of fracturing the decency of our relationships with one another with the repeated violence against minorities,” said Teitelbaum, 77, an anthropologist. “We’ve got to consider what’s happening.”

The night after the Silver Spring forum, a second meeting was held in Germantown, this one also drawing an overflow crowd that was a mixture of blacks and whites.

Barry Filderman, 57, a white mortgage loan officer who lives in Potomac, attended the meeting because he “wants to understand” black anger toward the police. “It doesn’t happen to me,” he said.

Yet Filderman also considers himself “pro-police.”

“I get angry at the police, and I get angry at the black community,” he said. “I can also sympathize with the black community and the police. I can do both.”

Seated in the same row, Sylvia Darrow, 79, said she went to the meeting primarily to support the police. She described herself as “sick and tired of hearing the term ‘white privilege,’ ” and added: “We need to squelch some of this perception that the police are brutal and they’re mistreating people of color.”

Yet, after listening to more than a dozen African Americans speak about their experiences with the police, Darrow also came up with an idea.

A raffle designed to raise funds for survivors of police who are killed could also be used for another purpose: to help sponsor meetings at which African Americans and police officers can talk to one another.

“I guess I do have the sense that maybe we do need to have more dialogue,” she said.

Scott Clement contributed to this report.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/soc...7583_story.html

Well said Clem

and I will say I understand Swish' anger because I am from the same place he is , so when he talks of war against all white people, i do not get offended, but I also see how others may.

Honestly its all so frustrating and it effects me to the point of just wanting to shut down and block it all out. The political BS, our government, our racial divide, class warfare, media being used as a pawn to control the ignorant minds of the people to advance the agenda of the ultra wealthy. I wish I had an answer for it all. I wish I could see a solution on the horizon.

I see it too, King... but at this point, I can't allow myself to worry about how Swish's words might offend the delicate sensitivities of others.

Black Americans have been beaten down like no other Americans have. They were the only Americans who did not come to this country as 'immigrants.' They are the only 'immigrant group' that came to this continent as Property. From Day One.

And that distinction has followed us since the 1600's.

It's the only American distinction that separates us from all other immigrant groups who have ever found themselves on these shores... and it's the overriding distinction that still separates us from every other immigrant class who has ever been allowed to assimilate themselves into American culture.

My People were the only Americans who arrived here as less than Human. My People arrived here as pre-destined 'Farm Machinery' in an age that pre-dated Eli Whitney's cotton gin.

So... when a 21st-century movement describes itself as "Black Lives Matter," you'd better believe that Clemdawg is totally down with what it represents.... even if some of its 'hangers-on' use the title to do stupid $#!+.

________________


I flatly refuse to allow the 'stupidest of us' to define the baseline that others use to define who I am, or what I represent.

The people who need to hear this message the most, are the very same people who hear it with the most profound degree of deafness.

The pace of 'social progress' will always be defined by the amount of social resistance it finds.

BUT: The pace of social progress is also always MEASURED by its results.

Each step that is made toward America's "More Perfect Union" is a definitive repudiation of the injustices that stood in the path of progress.

Some people simply cannot be be reached...
And I'm done wasting my time with them.

Life's too short.... and I'm too busy living out my 'American Dream' to waste time with idiots who want to argue, instead of listen.

_______________


It's now up to you, and Dawgs like Swish to tell them what they need to know. I'm checking out of this fruitless endeavor.

Young Dawgs need to pick up the program.
Old guys like me have done all we can.

I'm passing the baton to you, in this relay race.


Good luck.

May Jesus' Eternal Message be with you all. You will need the strength of His words to prevail in this fight.

All my best,
Clemdawg.

Why some whites are waking up to racism


Not long ago, Becky Deen Tai would never have imagined herself attending a civic meeting about police officers’ treatment of African Americans.

She’d grown up a white girl in a family with roots in the Deep South, and only recently had become “more aware of how unaware I am,” she said, later recalling her astonishment at learning via social media that black mothers often lecture their sons on how to avoid being targeted by law enforcement.

Yet Tai had felt compelled to attend the recent forum in Silver Spring, Md., after watching a stream of amateur videos in the news showing fatal encounters between police and blacks across the country. There was Ferguson, Mo., South Carolina, Minnesota — that very week, in fact, a video had flashed of a North Miami policeman shooting and wounding a black male caregiver, even as he lay on the ground with his hands raised.

“Now they’re taping it and it’s harder to stay away,” said Tai, 53, a special education teacher who moved to Silver Spring from Atlanta a year ago. “I didn’t have to think about the problem because I didn’t have to see it. Now it’s in front of me.”

As the nation’s first African American president completes his second term, the country’s racial divide has grown more pronounced, bursting into full view during heated debates over issues such as income inequality, jobs, educational opportunities and, perhaps most prominently, how the criminal justice system treats blacks.

At the same time, videos documenting police officers shooting African Americans — widely shared on social media — are forcing the nation’s white population to confront head-on evidence suggesting that blacks still face an onerous set of challenges.

The videos’ influential role recalls how television news footage shaped white public opinion during the civil rights movement, when cameras captured Southern police officers using hoses and dogs to control black demonstrators. A few years later, television coverage of the Vietnam War had a similar galvanizing effect.

The change in sentiment is visible in a growing number of whites attending Black Lives Matter protests and staging rallies focused on racial justice, as well as the Black Lives Matter T-shirts worn by the mainly white Wyoming delegation at the Democratic National Convention. Yet in many cases, the evolution is far more subtle, surfacing in unspoken shifts in perspective, a change in the tenor of everyday interactions or desires to gain greater understanding.

Many whites remain intolerant in their racial views, yet recent polls have shown that a growing percentage of whites think that the country needs changes to give blacks parity with whites.

A Washington Post poll asking this question last year found 53 percent of whites saying more changes are necessary to ensure equal rights for black people, jumping from 39 percent before Michael Brown’s death in 2014. Concern about equality rose among both white men and women, those with and without college degrees, and among white conservatives and liberals.

The phrase Black Lives Matter first received national attention in summer 2014 and, since then, has become part of conversations on race in America. Here's how the phrase became a movement.

The shift was not fleeting. An identical 53 percent of whites in a Pew Research survey this spring said more changes are needed to ensure equality. Dealings with police stood out as the area of greatest concern, with half of whites saying that blacks are treated less fairly in such encounters.

In interviews, some white Americans said that Trump’s rise and the overt racism and xenophobia voiced by some of his supporters have heightened their awareness of racial fissures.


But news reports about African Americans dying during encounters with officers have been especially jolting, providing whites a glimpse of what blacks long have insisted was commonplace.


Patricia Wudel is the executive director of Joseph’s House, which provides end-of-life care for homeless men and women in Washington. (Amanda Voisard/For The Washington Post)

Patricia Wudel, 63, the white executive director of a hospice center for the homeless in the Adams Morgan neighborhood, said she realized that her sense of the African American experience was far too limited several years ago as she ate breakfast with colleagues after a Florida jury exonerated George Zimmerman in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin.

“I said, ‘I can’t believe they let that guy off,’ ” Wudel recalled. A black woman seated next to her, she said, “so close, our arms were touching — had tears coming down her face and she whispered, ‘I always knew he would.’ ”

“In that instant,” Wudel said, “I realized that her response surprised me, and I knew my world view was too small. And I knew I had to make room to talk to people.” As a result of her deliberations, Wudel said she felt compelled last year to attend the funeral of a stranger — Freddie Gray, the black man who suffered fatal injuries while in the custody of Baltimore police.

As she got out of her car in downtown Manassas, Va., a 68-year-old white woman said the incidents involving police and blacks were a reminder of the advantages available to her that African Americans don’t have. “I’m looking for ways to dig into white privilege, to become more cognizant of it,” said the woman, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because she said she fears retaliation from racist whites.

When an African American opens the door for her, the woman said, she finds herself making a mental note to be sure to open the door for a black person when there is the opportunity. She also told her neighbor — a black woman — to no longer refer to her as “Miss Beverly” because it made her uncomfortable.

As for the police, the woman said she is “rethinking” her long-held belief that stories of misconduct were the result of a few bad officers. “You hear about so many you have to wonder if it’s more than a few,” she said.


Alanna Mensing, 34, says she "feels sympathy for the mothers who have to worry that this is going to be their children’s future.” (Amanda Voisard/For The Washington Post)

A block away, Alanna Mensing, 34, who was walking with her 18-month-old son, said that when she takes the boy to play groups, she thinks about what black children will face when they grow up.

“A few years ago, that would never have occurred to me,” said Mensing, a music teacher. She said she becomes upset when she reads about racial incidents on social media.

“I feel insanely guilty about everything,” Mensing said. “I feel guilty that it’s not white people who are getting shot. It’s always black people.”

More to be done
In the 1950s, the driving force behind the civil rights movement was a nexus of black church and community leaders who organized protests such as the Montgomery bus boycott. All of the participants were African American.

It was not until 1960 when large numbers of whites became involved in the movement, joining sit-ins at a Woolworths in Greensboro, N.C. They joined the Freedom Riders through the South, attended the March on Washington in 1963, and traveled to Selma, Ala., in 1965 after Bloody Sunday.


Protesters hold signs during a Black Lives Matter movement protest at Lykes Gaslight Park in downtown Tampa. (Octavio Jones/AP)

Black Lives Matter protests the police shooting death of Philando Castile with members of the American Teachers Federation in Minneapolis. (Adam Bettcher/Reuters)
Whites’ participation, said Taylor Branch, the historian who has written a widely praised history of the civil rights movement, helped disseminate the importance of the movement to the broader public.

“It meant a lot to have distinguished, highly credentialed white people submitting to the discipline of a movement run by black people,” Branch said. “There were some white people across the country who wouldn’t care about black people going to jail in the South. But they would care if some college students from Yale got beaten up or killed.”

Referring to current demonstrations against law enforcement, Branch said: “It’s vital to have white people involved in the issue of police justice because it makes it not purely a racial issue of black versus white. This is about right versus wrong.”

The echo of the civil rights movement is partly what drew Lisa Reed, 58, a paralegal, to attend the Silver Spring forum sponsored by the Montgomery County government last month. Before an audience of more than 400 people, African Americans stood and recalled what they described as unwelcome encounters with the police.

The evening’s most riveting moments included when a white woman recalled her recent outrage over seeing police officers pulling down the pants of a black man they had detained on the street.

“I kind of felt like the civil rights movement had passed me by, and I realize now that it hasn’t,” Reed said later. “There’s a lot to be done.”

While she looks for ways to become involved, Reed also revisits her own background growing up in Atlanta. Whether she likes it or not, she said, she was influenced by her father, a man she described as prejudiced who told her when she was 10 that Martin Luther King was assassinated because he was a “rabble rouser.”

“You can’t be raised with the level of isolation that I was raised with without absorbing certain prejudices,” she said. All these years later, she said, she finds herself aware of reflexive perceptions such as when she encounters a black attorney and thinks it’s unusual.

“It took a long time of me stopping my brain and telling myself that was a stereotype and to let it go,” she said. Instead, she tells herself: “This is a person who attended law school and has a family. This is not an exception. This is what black men do.”

‘I can do both’

Joel Teitelbaum, 77, a retired anthropologist, participated as a student in sit-ins for housing integration and civil liberties in Maryland in the 1950s and 60s. (Amanda Voisard/For The Washington Post)
Like Tai, Joel Teitelbaum, a white retiree who lives in the Washington suburbs, said he has become more focused on race after watching the videos of police shootings on the news.

“The nation has crossed the line of fracturing the decency of our relationships with one another with the repeated violence against minorities,” said Teitelbaum, 77, an anthropologist. “We’ve got to consider what’s happening.”

The night after the Silver Spring forum, a second meeting was held in Germantown, this one also drawing an overflow crowd that was a mixture of blacks and whites.

Barry Filderman, 57, a white mortgage loan officer who lives in Potomac, attended the meeting because he “wants to understand” black anger toward the police. “It doesn’t happen to me,” he said.

Yet Filderman also considers himself “pro-police.”

“I get angry at the police, and I get angry at the black community,” he said. “I can also sympathize with the black community and the police. I can do both.”

Seated in the same row, Sylvia Darrow, 79, said she went to the meeting primarily to support the police. She described herself as “sick and tired of hearing the term ‘white privilege,’ ” and added: “We need to squelch some of this perception that the police are brutal and they’re mistreating people of color.”

Yet, after listening to more than a dozen African Americans speak about their experiences with the police, Darrow also came up with an idea.

A raffle designed to raise funds for survivors of police who are killed could also be used for another purpose: to help sponsor meetings at which African Americans and police officers can talk to one another.

“I guess I do have the sense that maybe we do need to have more dialogue,” she said.

Scott Clement contributed to this report.


https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/soc...7583_story.html

And I don't care about how other people's delicate sensitivities will be offended if I state that burning down stores, looting stores, killing people, beating up random people, throwing rocks, bottles, glass, and other dangerous items at police are not productive acts, but rather acts of violence fueled by ignorance and hate.

clem...I sense your frustration but I'm going to ask you to do something for me...please, do not stop posting.

I can hear you now...mac, I don't know you and you have no right to ask me for anything.

Clem, you would be correct, we don't know each other but I want you to know this, your posts, I try to read each of them, regardless of the subject.

Why do I read your posts...I respect your opinions and I do appreciate the time and effort you put into your posts.

I too, have felt frustration over various issues and questioned why I waste my time to post my thoughts on this message board...at times, I felt like quitting but decided on a different approach...

...I found that taking a break from posting on the board was a good fix for the burnout I was feeling.

...Clem, just a suggestion from someone who appreciates your input...mac

j/c:

I respect and admire this man. However, I disagree with Sheriff Clarke.

It is both culture and officers responsible for the situation as it currently exists.

After much research and participation on panels within my community, it is highly evident to me that both play a crucial role along with socioeconomics. Our panels include youth from our communities who have had issues, struggles with the law and served jail time.

The single root cause as I would identify it would be the breakdown of the American family.

These youth have had no guidance and nurturing leaving them vulnerable to gangs and gang related activity to gain a sense of belonging. They "need", as we all do, to fit in. Since society has turned a blind eye to them, they relate to the angry mob mentality prevalent within gangs.

I know some will accuse me of being non sensical because I don't live in the inner city.....I can't possibly understand. That's OK. I am talking continuously with troubled youth and getting their thoughts. . Race is a non issue.

Simply put, this is my effort at becoming part of the solution to this monumental, unfortunate and destructive societal problem.

I agree with most of what you said, but you kind of contradict yourself. You say that both sides are responsible, but then later give one solo reason.

It frustrates me when I read these conversations and in other places, that people try to speak in singular terms. Its kid of like the debates in Pure Football where people say " the reason we lost is ....." no there is not one singular root cause . It is a combination of many things.

Ya know, King, after re reading my post, you are correct. Today's youth are vulnerable in many circumstances. we can all agree on that. Vulnerability makes them suceptible to some, otherwise, unacceptable behavioral thoughts.

Officers are at fault as well. I thought we all understood that there are bad apples in every bushel/profession. There is inadequate sensitivity training within the police force, there is inadequate de-escalation training within the police force and, I might suggest, now there is an unhealthy fear that permeates this profession and makes some trigger happy out of fear for their own lives.

Sheriff David Clarke is a sound thinking man, at least from what I have observed of him.

His failure to take into consideration that racism exists within both entities (youth and officers) as well is where we would part ways. This must be acknowledged if progress in a positive direction is to be made.

Thanks for reading and critiquing my post.

I guess you show your gun permit license. Just to play it safe. Is the way I would go.

If I have to take my gun somewhere I take it unloaded and in the trunk. Problem solved.

I agree with every word you just said

Not saying you are wrong, but just out of curiosity, are you a CCW holder? If so, what good does your gun, in the trunk ,unloaded do you ?

Yes I have a ccw. I do not conceal carry. Mainly i go to the range to target shoot. It was taught to me to put the gun in the trunk to avoid problems with the cops.

but why should you have to worry about trouble from cops for doing something you have the legal right to do? I am not understanding that logic

Have you never been hasseled by the cops before ? Have you never been searched for no reason? I prefer 5o not give them a reason to hassel or shoot me.

Yes I have and I understand what you mean. I guess I just find that sad that we shouuld have to be concerned about doing something that is not illegal

I get that it is a right to conceal carry in a car. But for me personally I have no reason. Im not gang banging. Im not going to the ghetto. Im not doing anything dangerous. So discretion is the better part of valor. I put it in the trunk.And live to drive another day.

Hey Swish did you read about Austin Harrouff. Dude stabbed a couple to death, ate their faces, had to be tazed and restrained by 4 cops. I bet it was Flakka.


Wasn't shot at though.

funny. i thought resisting arrest = justified getting shot.

maybe he wasn't resisting arrest THAT much. ya know, there might be a threshold or something we aren't aware of...

I believe the reason they didn't shoot him was because he was on top of the other guy and they were afraid the bullet would pass through and kill the victim.

I posted the article on the Roof thread. You can check it out there.

So why didn't they just choke him like the guy in NYC?

They used a stun gun on him several times. I think the first officer was a female. They actually had a police dog on him.

I don't know about a race angle, but man, that is one creepy story. I was just reading some more articles about the guy. Extremely weird.

Here is some more info:



He also stabbed a neighbor a few times when the guy tried to get him off the victim. I think it was that neighbor who called police.

How come the cops didn't use stun guns on other people resisting arrest?

Are you saying they don't? Ever?

Or, are you simply saying that every cop in the world is racist and out to get blacks?

All I ask is why use a stun gun on a dude who just stabbed two people and ate somebody's face, but a cop can't use a stun gun during a traffic stop.

In your zeal to make another blanket statement, you are ignoring the truth.

I imagine that many black men are apprehended by police w/out being shot. Or, do you think that every black man who is apprehended by police is shot and killed?

Each situation is unique unto itself. There are different people involved. It blows my mind that you don't like the stereotypical labels that are assigned to blacks, yet you assign similar ones to another large group of people.

There are good and bad people in all groups, Swish. Blanket statements are ignorant and dangerous.

You did everything but answer the question.

But I expect nothing less around here.

I have a headache.

It's hard feeding yourself a line of bull, isn't it.

If there is ever a time when I could understand a cop being trigger happy it would be in this situation. Dude ate a damn persons face off after stabbing them to death. Shoot the dude.

The cops and dog were all racists. That's why they didn't shoot him or bite his junk off.

Or maybe there should be a standard.

In the military, we couldn't just fire on people because we feel scared.

The cops were warranted to shoot the guy.

But that's not what they did. Which is fine. That's awesome in a way, I guess.

But the point that is being made is that cops are trigger happy over traffic stops but won't pull the trigger after a guy just killed two people and was eating faces?

We're comparing use of force to as an apples to apples comparison.

It's all good to choke a guy to death over him selling cigarettes on the street, but a guy who just MURDERED two people and went zombie on them, nah, gotta treat him as nice as possible.

You are making yourself look bad.

All cops are not the same. Get that through your thick head. There are good ones and bad ones. You know.......just like people.

Look bad to who? You? What is that suppose to mean to me in the grand scheme of things? Nothing.

Also, you aren't responding directly to what I'm saying. Again.

Did you sleep on the couch last night, Swish? Or did you run out of weed?

Goodness!

I did answer your dumb ass question. Not ALL blacks are shot when they are apprehended by the cops. What the hell is so hard to understand?

This story is not about race, no matter how hard you and Candy try to do so.

No one has said they are???????

To some people (not saying you personally Swish before your panties get a wadded up) everything is about race.

Originally Posted By: Versatile Dog

I did answer your dumb ass question. Not ALL blacks are shot when they are apprehended by the cops. What the hell is so hard to understand?


This terminology disturbs me. No question is a bad question. If someone cares enough to ask, the question is legitimate. College prep 101 taught me that.

Using terminology like "dumb ass" is immature and condescending to another. No reason for it. When you realize another is not getting your point or not willing to try, move on. Just move on. This behavior is about as productive as what is occuring in Milwaukee right now.

spot on

It is not a cops job to dole out punishment. They shoot in defense of themselves or to save others. If this guy had ran at them with the knife or whatever then there is a good chance they would have shot him.

These arguments of pointing at white people who werent killed are logical fallacys. Sure there are police situations where whites are apprehended and not killed, and sure there are police situations where they are killed or injured. And the same applies to blacks and every other race of people in this country. Every situation is unique and generalizations are silly ,

Little off topic but I was pulled over yesterday. I actually passed on a double yellow (a. I can see way ahead of me and no threats, and b. The car in front of me was doing 10mph below the limit, which is only 35 mph to begin with (still I was in the wrong here and clearly violated the traffic law)) and I was just brutally honest with the cop.

I told him I had no excuse, I was just rushing to get home. He asked if I had my seat belt on, which I didn't and I informed him that.

Expecting a nice ticket to be given to me since I drive a car that looks fast, committed two violations and etc, he hands me a warning and thanked me (yes, he thanked ME) for my honesty and sent me on my way.

I was extremely appreciative but thought, honesty, not trying to bs and obeying and answering every command and etc of the officer resulted in that.

Now, if I had a gun and was told to stop and get on the ground, I wonder the outcomes of these shootings if I followed the same principles I did during the stop. Just simply listening and obeying the orders and commands of the officer.

You mean like following the cops order to provide your CCW and getting shot as you reach for it? Or sitting there with your hands up and the cop shooting you and saying " I dont know why I shot you "?

Not possible...cops are the devil

Or some of the so called videos of abuse which before anything happens, you can someone barking out orders to "stop", "get on the ground", "hands up" and etc. It goes two ways if you want to approach it like that.

Not every instance is the same, not every human acts the same. If one kid in the classroom gets a F on their report card, does that mean all the kids in the same classroom failed too?

I agree, it is a little of both, basically it comes down to people acting like aholes, sometimes it is the cops, sometimes it is the peoples

exactly

Freaking 110% exactly.

Yeah, except I did answer his question. He just didn't want to hear it, so he resorted to some stupid insults.

You may have learned some things in College Prep, but I learned some things on the street when it comes to dealing w/a guy like Swish. We go after each other, but neither of us needs defending.