TLDR - there's some insane EV's coming out that are potentially Tesla killers, from design, performance, and price.

So, as most of you know, I'm a huge car enthusiast. And while I love my M6, I'm looking for something thats pushing the envelope, tech and innovation-wise.

One of the thing I battle with is the fact that despite my ride being a twin-turbo V8, and weighing 4400 lbs, I'm still pushing around 430 miles on a 20 gallon tank. On most stretches of long road trips, I have managed to pull 510 on a single tank (note: this was achieved twice in damn near perfect weather conditions, so this isn't common whatsoever). So because of that, I have struggled to pull the trigger on owning a Tesla.

for reference, here's real owners talking about their mileage in Tesla's:

https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/how-many-real-miles-are-u-getting-lr

basically, between 220 and 310 on average. Now, there are upsides to owning an electric car like Tesla. if you buy the Tesla model S, X, or performance 3, you get free charging on the over 400 supercharging stations across the country.

If you own anything else, you get charged, but to get to full charge, it's anywhere from a couple bucks to 10 dollars, which is still massive savings compared to gas.

the bigger issue, however, is performance and styling. While Tesla set the standard for what EV cars can really look like, the reality is that they are a one trick pony. The crazy launch times you see in the P100D's are cool, but after a couple launches, the batteries overheat and you have to wait to cool it off if you're tracking it.

Now, obviously most people are tracking their cars, but for car enthusiasts, going 0-60 in under 3 secs is all fun and games until you realize that you can't really go to race events all day with it. Also, the quality of the build and such feels like a typically cheap American vehicle. Just kind of feels slapped together. It's the EV version of the classic American muscle car; quick in a straight line, but not much else.

The thing that works for Tesla is that there really isn't much competition from other manufacturers. Most companies are still lagging way behind in their EV development, and for the companies that do have EV's, they are ugly, cheaply designed/produced, and offer no real driving dynamics.

But now? There's competition. Starting with the new Jaguar I-Pace:



Then, there's the Porsche Mission E, which is being called the Taycan. It has a wagon and a sedan model, with the wagon dropping later this year, and the sports sedan dropping 2020:





and then finally, Audi just dropped their E Tron lineup, featuring an SUV, and hopefully in 2020, their sports sedan EV called the E Tron GT:




Now, obviously the Jag and Audi SUV's are for the gearheads, but the styling and driving dynamics is way more developed than Tesla's Model X.

The Porsche Taycan and Audi E Tron GT are for the enthusiast who want more than just a car that launches fast in a straight line. Those two cars represents the very bright future ahead for EV's, as well as more competition for Tesla.

Also, Porsche has received tons of deposits for the Taycan, and the dealers have told them that the Mission E will go anywhere from 75k to low 90's.

Now obviously thats a lot, but compared to the money people drop for the Model S's? Then you're talking about the build quality reputation, as well as more plants and better-designed logistic management that Porsche, Jaguar, and Audi have.

Anyway, I just wanted to get a discussion going on EV's.

Also, there's this:



If they can figure out how to keep that payload towing up without sacrificing too much loss in battery mileage, its game over.

I was thinking about getting a Tesla Model S.

But I dont know. I dont really want to blow that cash right now.

don't. im telling you, it might be nice to not have to pay to charge cause there's definitely supercharging stations in the Atlanta area, but you'll be disappointed in the ride/interior quality when you go from the Jag to the Tesla.

just wait, better options - or at least competitive options - are just around the corner, and for the same or even cheaper price.

Well, I wasnt gonna give up the Jag either. Jag needs to not be lonely in the driveway

But I trust your judgement.

I havent test driven the Tesla, so I dont know what the interior or ride is like.

I just know, they kick my butt when I race them.

That Porsche Taycan is sexy.

I found specs:
https://autoweek.com/article/luxury/porsche-taycan-specs-confirmed-600-hp-310-mile-range

Will be kinda pricey though.

I'm the same way... would love to buy a tesla but my honda has a few thousand miles left in it...hoping to hold out a few more years...

yea they are gonna be up there. but i'm going to trade the bimmer in for this, cause i dont like owning two cars, even though they're completely different platforms.

i'm patiently waiting for 2020 for the sports sedan. i like the wagon but i dunno if if im willing to part with the m6 for a wagon.

I don't know much on electric cars outside of tesla.... are you suggestion to wait for new jags to come out?

i would, simply so you have something to truly compare it to. but thats just my opinion.

the jag, audi, have theirs, and some other companies are developing one.

i guess the best analogy i have is this: lets say we was use to cars, and then the F-150 dropped.

is the F-150 a great truck? or is it a decent truck, but its one of a kind so there's really nothing to compare it to?

i know a couple people with the Model S and they absolutely love it. there's also people who love their Model 3 and wouldn't buy anything else.

So if you're looking for the standard EV car where its good range, looks good, and a great stop n go traffic grocery getter, then a Tesla is a great buy, especially with their free supercharging networks.

but if you're looking for a real drivers car, something that you can take to the track or hit corners on the backroad after work, then wait for the jag, audi, and porsche. i was just saying that for my personal taste, i wouldn't buy a tesla.

but obviously there's even cheaper EV's out there, like the chevy Bolt or the nissan leaf, but those are hideous.

Are the charging stations not universal?

I dont know much about electric cars.

My pharmacy has a charging station. I assumed it works for all brands of cars but dont really know.

But it seems like a cool concept. Charge while you shop.

They’re universal as far as hardware goes.

But a bolt or leaf can’t charge at a Tesla supercharging station, because it isn’t authenticated when it’s plugged in. car companies have to pay licensing fees in order to access Tesla charging stations. But Tesla’s have an adapter to charge at any charging port.

My concerns would be access to charging stations and if you go on a road trip, how long does it take to charge a car to full that is near empty?

I think the hybrid concept is the most practical.

Tesla Model S
Battery charge time:
76.75 to 96.7h at 110V,
8.5 to 10.72h at 220V,
1.33h at 440V

Take my money.

Bytons Electric M Byte SUV

I have loved the Tesla since it saw a YOUTUBE of it about 11 years ago, but I have a question that I don't; think was addressed in the article.

How long does the average EV take to recharge fully from really low levels? I am only thinking if it was my primary vehicle, and I wanted to go on vacation 12-14 hours away, if it takes 1-2 hours to recharge that would add significant time to my drive.

Plus I am sure 5-10 years from charging stations will be everywhere, but how available are they now.

Just asking.

From almost dead, the supercharging stations will get your the Tesla to about 80% in 15-20 minutes.

The charging at home are the ones that take a while to charge, but it’s not a concern when you’re pretyt much charging it overnight.

About 15-20 minutes.

I don’t like hybrids.

Does anyone know how the charging stations get their electricity? (Coal-powered plant, solar farm, etc) I'm legitimately curious. Also their load on the grid would be interesting to know.

I'll definitely be waiting a while for economies of scale to bring prices down... And issues to show up and be fixed.

Love the concept.

As far as Tesla goes, many are built on solar arrays and the plan is to eventually be 100% disconnected from the gird.

Hydrogen Fuel Cell vehicles are the future

Harley-Davidson’s first all-electric motorcycle is coming August 2019, will cost $29,799



https://www.theverge.com/2019/1/7/181724...-price-ces-2019

A Harley that makes no noise?? That thing will sink like a Led Zeppelin!

It definitely targets a different market.

I know this probably seems a bit glum, but one of the biggest things helping to keep motorcycling safe (in my eyes) was the noise. I imagine accident rates will go up when you can't hear them coming or going.

I will take one of the Audi E-Tron GTs. To whom do I write the check?

You can put cards in the spokes though.

To be fair with Harley riders, they typically cruise, not ride st ridiculous speeds like the crotch rocket guys. I’ll be worried once the others start making electric crotch rockets.

Yea, it’s either the taycan or the GT for me.

What $$$$$ do you think it will start at?

Excellent point Swish.

For the Audi, most likely around 75k after delivery. That’s base, no options though. Well equipped might be low 90’s

This has the look and feel of a crotch rocket and you can only have the old adage of, Loud pipes save lives, if you have loud pipes.

word.

seriously though, in my experience, loud pipes means somebody is gonna wreck soon.

True. I'm out here in Amish country - about to pass a buggy on a busy road last summer, Harley behind me, as I'm passing - his loud pipes let me know he was going full stunt driver - passing me to the far right AND the buggy. He's lucky I quickly got around the buggy and hit the brakes or he was toast... barely ducked in before hitting a car head on.

Bro, and everyone else for that matter, what are you thoughts on the future of EV?

What will make you switch? What features do you need to see transfer from ICE cars (internal combustion engine) to full EVs!

I don't see myself switching until we're a little closer to "critical mass" with price, reliability and infrastructure.

Thanks. Not sure how long you can drive on a battery, but those fill up times turn me off.


Well honey, time for a recharge....might as well get a hotel room for the next 2 days.

Those are not the charging times at superchargers. Those are the charging times for your adapter at home.

Again, to get to 80% charge at a supercharger takes 15-20 minutes.

I saw that, just didn't have time to reply. That isn't bad. I still see a problem unless as E-car gain popularity charging stations have slots for maybe 100 cars. You pull in and have to wait for even 2-3 cars to charge.

I still think hybrid is the way.

I rented a few on my Browns tips this year. In time they will have to improve acceleration speed when you start to still keep it in electric mode and improve how long you can drive on electric power before the gas engine kicks in to charge the battery. I can see that improving.

You know, be able to drive down to the grocery store 6 miles away, not going over 40 or so and never fire up the gas engine.

In time I am sure E-cars will meet demands, but for now, I don't see it as a roadtrip car.

Personally, I'm not sure how ICE cars running on CNG (compressed natural gas) never came to fruition.

Good point, but right now, the only people regularly parking at charging stations are people who don’t have EVs looking for a closer parking spot by the stores, or the assholes in their pickup trucks parking in EV spots for no other reason than to troll.

Tesla are in the process of doubling up their supercharing network, which alresdy has a decent amount right now. And if you’re on the east coast, they’re one of the best road trip cars because ports are everywhere, and if you have a model S, X, or performance 3, charging is free.

^This. Right here.^

Thanks.
You just saved me a whole buncha keyboard-bangin'.

I think one day, filling stations will just be a battery swap.

I'm on-board with FATE.... cost, reliability, infrastructure.

If I had the money to have one for daily use without giving up my other car, I'd have one now.

What is maintenance on one? How often, how much does it cost? What is the biggest risk that could kill the motor?

And I'm all for some planning on my trips, but if I'm going out of town, I don't want to have to map out where I need to stop to recharge

To be fair, the ones Swish posted are high end.

Most people who want an EV probably dont need a 600 HP Porsche.
Those are for enthusiasts.

There are lots of way less expensive brands. That I know nothing about.

loud pipes save lives. Its a proven fact, the louder the bike, the more noticeable you are on the road, the better chance a driver will hear you coming when they cant SEE you coming.

Its the first thing you learn in a motorcycle safety course.

There are, but they are all small, and go 0-60 in about 12.8 seconds. lol

I drove my cousins prius once I thought I felt it was unsafe trying to get on a highway.

I heard the volt, etc has more power, but never drove one.

For me personally, its going to take for me to get what I can HP and Torque wise for the same money I am now, along with getting 300-400 miles a charge, with a recharge of about 5 minutes.

I drive a lot, about 15K miles a year on the LOW end close to 20K on the higher end. Sometimes we take long road trips, im not going to have to drive a couple hundred miles, then have to wait an hour to recharge my car, to drive another 300 miles. JMO.

There are drawbacks to EVs for those that travel, but 90%+ of people aren't taking long road trips or driving more than 200-300 miles in an average day.

Gas and hybrid options will still exist until the issue of long travel is solved.

I imagine if EV is the future, then at some point the freeways will be fitted with wireless charging, that charge WHILE you drive, to give additional mileage.

Electric cars are stealing from other drivers.

The fuel taxes paid on gasoline by regular drivers fund roads & repairs. Electric car owners don't contribute to this in any way.

https://buildyour.jaguar.com/jag2/r/mode...5784-6462596524

here's the build for the jaguar i-pace. some cool configurations, definitely can get up there in price with options.

That's why most jurisdictions are considering a tax by the mile driven as opposed to by the gallon of gas used. Revenues are already down because fuel efficiency has improved so much.

Everybody complains about switching to a miles-driven model for taxing... everybody also complains that roads are in crappy shape... something has to give.

Jaguar <3 (I'm biased)

They have amazing interior options.

Mine has a normal dash computer, and a computer in the steering wheel for the ..uh.. whatever its called where the speedometer is... bunches of displays with different stats and diagnostics , heads up display, etc. I dont even know half the stuff my car can do.

i guess short of teleportation and flight, its pretty much capable of all kind of crap.

so Land Rover has been doing this for a while now, but Jag finally did the same with the SUV's and offers the sports activity band.

its such a cool feature. put the band on like a watch, and you can go on runs and everything while leaving your keys in the car, and just unlock it by the door handle like you was paying with apple pay.

Yes I have an app on my phone that gps locates my jag, tells me all the current stats about, what is locked/open/whatever and I can make it remotely lock/alarm/beep etc.

Its really cool.

One time I had to leave the Jag at the dealership overnight to put a new tire on, and they gave me a LandRover as a loaner.

Very cool suv. I dont like their exterior much, but they handle exceptionally well for a Suv and have a very strong engine. The interior is similar to Jag, but they are made by the same company so....

Elon Musk: New Tesla Roadster will use thrusters to float above the ground

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/elon-m...&yptr=yahoo

when i die, make sure to bury me next to the tree i wrapped around.

Well, at least we know he inhales lol.

Wow

This is not real life.

This is Star Wars.

Yep pretty much.

And then there’s this.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes....terrifying/amp/

...weird, but who knows what the future holds.

True. I would imaging there will be a tax imposed as more hit the road. They wear down roads just like any other vehicle.

How that tax would be imposed would be the question.

Some people seem to have a need to fight change, technology and innovation. Sure EV’s need constant improvements to battery storage and charging.

Loved how willit said loud pipes saves lives, which IMO is very true. But what’s really going to save lives is driverless EV’s

EV’s in general are half the weight of most fossil fuel vehicles and taxes will most likely be imposed like any other fueling station by local state and federal sales taxes at the charging stations like the gas stations do today.

HINT: They are called conservatives.

Not true, a Prius weighs around 3k, so does a standard honda accord. A Model S Tesla is around 4.5-4.9k, my Audi A8L is around 4.2k. The batteries are very heavy.

Battery packs in EVs are up to three times the weight of many ICEs! It's crazy. Batteries are one of those things people take for granted in this day and age, mostly because they never talk back and just do their job, but we're one huge breakthrough away from them changing the world... especially in the automotive world.

so, just to let everyone know the style of chassis that the EVs are using.

its basically called a skateboard platform. what this means is that the batteries sit inbetween the front and rear axle. this is why even the EV suv's have such a low center of gravity. but its also why they are really heavy.

my M6 weights about 4400 LBS. The Tesla model S weights about the same, and thats due to the batteries. even the nissan leaf and chevy bolt's have a decent amount of weight.

its also why its difficult to make a proper sports car out of EV's, due to the platform and weight. sport and weight when it comes to cars isn't ideal, which is why high end car makers focus so much on weight reduction.

now, the upside to batteries is that they don't have to be made the same way, and you can find different places to place them around the shell of the car. the issue though is again, finding the right curb weight and design to not sacrifice performance for batter placement.

How will they tax you for charging it at home?

The only sensible thing is for you to pay a road tax on all electricity consumed in the home if you have an EV registered at that address.

Or just more toll roads, so everybody that uses the road pays for upkeep.

Then you only pay for what you actually use.

Milage based, car registration fees.

Knowing what I know of politicians, they will impose some kind of a mileage tax as EVs become more popular.. but not give back the gas tax. Most states run in the $.25-.40 per gallon range.. they will find some other reason that they "need" to keep that in place.. you watch.

pretty long review, but man this ride is sweeeeeeeeeet! the gadgets in this EV is nuts! German car reviewer showing off the Audi E Tron SUV in dubai

Before you buy one, do some research on cell IR and thermal runaway, invest in a halon fire suppression system for your garage, check your smoke detectors and emergency evacuation procedures for your home, upgrade your fire insurance, and seriously examine a detached parking location far from your home.

Then consider battery replacement cost, because they will not last the life of the vehicle.

Find out why Lithium Titanate is one of the safest and longest-lasting choices, and also why almost no one is using it. See if you can figure out the single reason for both of these things.

However, if you think the thruster thing is a practical idea that will really become a consumer product, then never mind.

The cars running on gasoline would still need to pay a gas tax. Why would, or should the gas tax go away?

If you stopped using gasoline in a car, for most people you might only use 8 gallons a year to fire up the lawn mower and blower.. sure, you still have boats, chain saws, etc. but you get the point.

The interest will be to keep the revenue stream the same.

Because it seems unnecessarily difficult to tax ICE drivers and EV drivers differently for the same thing when the purpose of the tax is to pay for roads. You either tax the fuel source or you tax the mileage.


None of which really impacts the roads, so if the tax is for roads and road maintenance, why tax the gas?


Maybe I don't think like a politician but the interest will be to increase the revenue stream... and I would think they would want to do it in the simplest way possible.

I think he meant that if they choose to tax mileage, then they need to stop taxing the gas, because then those using gas would be being double taxed.

Yes, that is what I meant. And I assume they would have to account for the vehicle? Right now larger heavier vehicles (that create more wear on the roads) pay more in taxes because they use more gas... going to a mileage based tax, I assume there would be a different rate for somebody who had 15K miles on a 7500 lb truck vs the person who had the same mileage on a 4000 lb car?

Well, around here if they taxed on how far your trailer hitch sticks out the back of your truck, or how much you stick out of the parking space (This goes for cars that don't pull all the way up as well), we could "free" national healthcare.

I didn't read it that way, but if so , I agree.



Anyway you cut it, the tax income is going to have to be the same because w



We give away a lot of freebie.

Porsche doubles production of the electric car it hasn’t even released yet in run for Tesla’s market

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/01/23/this-is-...ing-up-for.html

seriously thinking about dropping a deposit right now.

the only thing thats gonna keep me from pulling the trigger on buying the taycan is if i can see myself parting with the bimmer or not. i don't like having 2 cars. 1 car, 1 truck is fine. 1 truck, 1 suv is cool.

but not 2 cars.

You have a fam so seems your decision would be centered around that.

i know homegirl. ugh.

i was actually thinking about trading it in, cause the porsche has a wagon version that i can fit my dog Jack in. that would be dope.

Thats a hard decision.

You have snow to deal with also.

So, if it were me, I'd have some kind of suv (wife's?) and then the fun luxury car.

Whatever brand combo that is.

The Audi and Porsche are AWD so... man eve I think I gotta part with my 6 /crying

Well, nothing says you have to buy it now.

Give it a couple years for them to work the kinks out.

That's what I would do.

I want another luxury sporty car to go with the Jag, but I have some retirement financial goals I want to reach first. And the Jag is still new to me, so I'm not ready to drive something else. And I want those EV cars to work the kinks out before I jump into that.

Don't rush. 2 cents.

An electric car with tailpipes? Must be fakes

Anyway, Electric is the way we are going no matter how much exxon mobil fights it. They'd be smart to invest heavy

remember, those are test cars. companies routinely use fake parts and vinyl wraps on their car in order to not reveal what the production design will look like.

When I used to work in the automotive industry at a tier 1 supplier we'd get pre-production test cars in all of the time. One of the most bizarre was when the Prowler was under development - we got the "prangler", a mash-up of a prowler and a jeep wrangler. It was hideous.

omg that thing is ugly lololol

Come on, it looks like a modern day Munsters car.

That is the understatement of the century.

True enough