Yeah, it's a silver lining article, which is ok. But I bolded the part that reiterates what I (and many of you) have been saying for years.

link

When Barkevious Mingo intercepts Peyton Manning — think about THAT for a minute — in overtime, no less, well, you’ve just got to win that game.

On Sunday, Mingo did and the Browns’ didn’t.

In overtime, no less.

Mingo The Invisible did his part. Future Hall of Famer Manning didn’t do his, the Browns defense did theirs, the Browns offense didn’t do theirs and Josh McCown said if you’re looking for somebody to blame, here I am.

“If I would have done better we would have won the game,” said McCown after the Browns didn’t, in a hair-pulling 26-23 loss to the loss-less Denver Broncos.

That’s right, the Browns took an undefeated team, directed by a Hall of Fame quarterback, into overtime.

So there’s that.

Think baby steps.

The game featured, mostly in a bad light, two players at either end of the NFL’s all-time quarterback spectrum.

McCown threw three touchdown passes — two to the Browns and one to the Broncos — barely completed half of his 39 pass attempts, had two interceptions, was sacked four times and had a Brandon Weedenish quarterback rating of 63.3.

Manning, the starting quarterback for a 6-0 team despite leading the league in interceptions, threw three more Sunday, and had a quarterback rating 10 points below McCown.

Somehow this game staggered into overtime, where the football gods should have asked both teams for some identification. The first possession went to the Broncos, and on their third play Manning threw maybe the worst pass of his career, and Mingo caught it, the first interception of his career.

The Browns’ first (and only) possession in overtime went like this: a run for minus 3 yards, McCown being sacked twice, and a punt.

The Browns never saw the ball again as Manning shook off the humiliation of being intercepted by you-know-who, and orchestrated a 13-play, 72-yard drive that ended with a game-winning field goal.

Each of the Browns’ last three games have been decided on the last play of the game. No offense to that Chargers’ do-over game-winning field goal loss, but Sunday’s might have been even bitter still.

“Extremely disappointing,” coach Mike Pettine said. “To be on the brink of a heck of a win … that’s a tough deal.”

The Browns’ much-maligned defense was much-improved, despite allowing 442 yards. They had three interceptions, two by Karlos Dansby, one of which he returned 35 yards for a touchdown. The Browns held Team Manning to a paltry 22 percent success rate (4-of-18) on third-down conversions.

However, the defense still has trouble with the big moments. After Dansby’s pick-six gave the Browns a 20-16 lead with eight minutes left in regulation, the defense gave up a one-play, 14-second, 75-yard touchdown drive, all of it coming on Manning’s best pass of the day, a laser thrown into the chest of Emmanuel Sanders, who streaked down the right sideline for a touchdown.

“When they hit that long one and put seven up, that was tough,” Pettine said.

The difference between the Browns and the Broncos, or, if you like, the difference between the Browns and a good team, was how Manning and the Broncos responded to losing the lead to the Browns — a one-play touchdown drive.

Compare that to how the Browns responded after that Manning missile that gave Denver the lead: the Browns’ offense went three and out.

For McCown, who was coming off a personally electrifying better-than-the-last-one three pack of games, it was a thudding example of why he’s been a career backup. Denver’s first touchdown was an ugly pick-six by Aqib Talib, who raced 63 yards for the touchdown.

“They played it differently than what we saw on tape,” sighed McCown.

There was a lot of explaining to do after losing this winnable game against a quality opponent. That’s how it works for a team trying to earn its spot on the porch with the other big dogs.

Pettine, for example, offered a long-winded explanation for why the Browns went for a 2-point conversion after the Dansby touchdown, instead of settling for one point — which might have led to the Browns winning in regulation.

“Obviously, knowing the end of the movie now, you would have liked to kick it,” Pettine said.

So the Browns fall to 2-4. But if you toss out that season-opening 31-10 debacle of a loss to the Jets, the Browns’ other three losses have been by seven, three and three points.
The talent gap between the Browns and many teams is still there. But it seems to be shrinking. So that’s something, right?

Sunday they took an undefeated team, quarterbacked by a five-time MVP and future Hall of Famer, into overtime. Oh yeah, and Gary Barnidge caught two more touchdown passes — with his hands this time.

Think baby steps.

Actually, there were a lot of things about yesterday's game that make me think and believe I'm starting to get off the "continuity" "we must remain patient and not make changes" "we must be like the steelroids" bangwagon and concede its time to blow it up again. The problem with that is I believe Jimmy will have a lot harder time bringing in a top level GM and Coach than he would have when he first took over. The days of Saban, Harbaugh, Gruden, Cower being talked about are probably in the past.

I didn't take away one silver lining from that game.

Although we competed, I left yesterday's game with one thought -- "what a mess"

The problem with the Browns is our owner is worse then Junior ever was....and i never thought that could even be possible.

When our owner bought the Browns, he brought in a guy who actually knew what he was doing, that man being Joe Banner.

Joe Banner then hired a young and up and coming Coach by the name of Rob Chudzinski, and surronded Chud with two QUALITY NFL O and Defensive Coordinators in Norv Turner and Ray Horton.

Ray Horton spent 6 seasons in Pittsburgh as Dick Leabeu's right hand man, and came into Cleveland and turned one of the worst defensive squads in the NFL into an elite unit that was ranked in the Top 7 in the NFL.

Norv Turner is a multi-time head coach, Super Bowl winning Coordinator, who has success at the NFL level for the last two decades.

Lombardi being the rat he is wanted to get rid of Chud and hire his buddy Josh McDaniels into Cleveland, Joe Banner refused and there was a huge fight between the two, and our idiot owner fired not only Banner, but he fired the coaching staff and all the people that could fix this mess.

Our Owner should have deferred the operational activities of this business to Banner a guy who knew what he was doing, if that had taken place, Lombardi would have been fired, a new GM brought in, maybe even Farmer, BUT Chud, Turner, and Horton would still be here because Banner picked these guys, and we would be in year 3 of a program and probably be in the mix right now.

Chud was our Marvin Lewis, a guy we needed to stick with, thick or thin, to pull us out of this mess...Chud had "It" and him being gone was a big reason Ward and Jackson left, Chud had what it takes to pull this organization out of the basement, and was surronded by the minds necessary to get that done...

Pettine isn't the guy to fix things here, and it will be a long time now before we find someone who can, we had our once every 20 years chance with guys like Banner, Chud, Horton, and Turner and our owner blew it...i hope Browns fans are ready fora nother 10-15 years of more losing because our owner got rid of the only guys in the NFL that could turn this mess around that were willing to come here....the chance sof Pettine turning this around is the same chance an ice cube has in Hades....he simply doesn't have it....he isn't the guy, Cud and Co were..

Rememeber it was Banner who fleeced the Colts for Trent Richardson...Banner knew EXACTLY what he was doing and had the right people hired, we really screwed the pooch big time with this, and now your seeing the results....

Oh and Joe Banner also called Jimmy a Moron on Twitter

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/09/joe_banner_deletes_moron_tweet.html

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...e-control-mode/

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/201...e-control-mode/

He tries to go into damage control of course, because it was meant to be a private messdage, but "Alec" is the President of the Browns and Banner tells us all we need to know...that our owner is a complete moron.....you not going to win or be successful at anything with such an owner...it starts at the top and the only place Jimmy is leading us is a nice comfy place in the basement.

As bad as Jr was, he atleast went out and hired Holmgren and Heckert, sure it didn't work out, but he atleast TRIED to hire knowledge and credible people and let them run things....it wasn't that Jr didn't try, he knew he didn't know football, he just got unlucky in not hiring the right guys to run things...but Jimmy wants to run things and doesn't have a clue...he may be worse then Al Davis....

LOL..........hope you have your armor on. You're going to need it.

I actually agree with some of what you are saying but, I do not remember hearing of any huge fight between Banner and Lombardi. I seem to remember that it was Banner who fired Chud after one year, the coaching staff leaving being the fall out from that. I would have like to see the whole regime get another year but I believe that the blackeye Jimmy and the Browns got over the firing of Chud after one season made it almost impossible not to let Banner and Lombardi go.

Just remember he pissed on Banner also.

He's consistent that way...lol

Nobody likes a loss...nobody. But we are not a bad team. We have lost 3 games by one score. Losing still sucks.

But not too long ago we were losing and not belonging on the same field.

I keep hearing about this progress, these improvements, especially from our d coordinator, yet I still no evidence or anything to validate what's is being said.

Now I'm not at practice or a nfl defensive guru, but I don't need to be any of the above to know our defense sucks. This article isn't even worth reading IMO. If I want bs, all I need to do is listen to Mike or Jimmy O'Neil talk about our team especially in terms of the defense.

JMO

I think there are other viable possibilities than just the McDaniel's angle.

My perspective (belief) has always been that Banner and Lombardi sold Jimmy on being able to get McDaniels, Gase, or even Harbaugh. Jimmy looked down on the field, saw Chud flat line a little, realized he had Chud as the orchestrator of a multi-billion dollar business, and bit. He bought in to what Banner and Lombardi sold him.

Banner and Lombardi end up having all their options blow up in their faces, and after not being able to get their big name the year before, that was it for Jimmy. They shot themselves in the foot, now they were out the door, and egg was on the organizations face from then on. Damage control on steroids. We looked like fools and were dragged through the mud for months (actually, I'm not sure its ever really stopped, including from us)

Jimmy was hanging on to a thread, and needed Farmer and Pet to come through. The NFL is a real tough business. Looks like they just don't have the experience to see a project as big as this through. Fixing the mess they inherited required extraordinary talent - and luck. Pettine has had to overcome so many issues in addition to just coaching the team.

The effects of the disaster that started in January 2014 are still alive and well.

Jimmy, Banner, and Lombardi are all to blame. Farmer is the guy we all saw on Hard Knocks (nothing more), and Pettine... Pettine was dealt a hand that Shula, Walsh, Parcells, etc... would have had a tough time turning around.

Its one big hot mess.

"Some progress" is not saying a whole lot.

Banner thinks EVERYBODY is a moron except for himself

You have a Win and a Loss Column , no close .. Until the excuses stop , the soap opera that is thee Browns will continue !

Actually there is also a tie column... so is switching staff and FO people every other year an excuse or a reason?

Give me a break on the tie thing will ya, You know what I meant !... An excuse in my book ( not that it matters ) .. All you do is give the Owner a way out or dare I say an Excuse .. Dawgs can banter all day long on the pros and cons of the Musical Chairs here in Cleveland ; but at the end of the day the results are the same ( in the Win/Loss/Tie ) column ..

You can go back to 98 when the NFL stuck us with their and Model's Pal Lerner instead of the Shula Group for starters .. Question ; what have you seen from Haslam that makes you think he is the answer at the top ?

Look I freely admit I am at a loss when it comes to this organization .. All I know is what I see ( I think I see ) on the field Sundays ..

It's definitely a reason. We are probably as good if not better right now than any team since we came back and we're still talking about firing everyone, let that sink in.

Ownership aside as an issue, part of my anger and frustration is what I do not see out of us. Pressure, sacks, more aggressive zone, just more of the same. Defense took the ball, and scored. Some serious offensive questions about yesterday need asked. And McCown's play was poor yesterday. Amazed we got back in, but chances for a clean win.

Yesterday was hurtful.

Their no progress in Berea.
yeah at the moment the Browns are 3rd in the AFC North.The Ravens are last.
But thats more indicative of the Ravens colossial error of giving Flacco all that money
injuries to the team.
This team is far from the Bengals and Steelers its not even close.
The Steelers are winning with out Rothlisberger. New DC Butler shut down the Cards yesterday.
winning with no contribution from Antonio Brown. RB and WR suspended for 6 games.
yet they are 4-2. going to the playoffs.
The Bengals are 6-0. beat the NFC champs 2 weeks ago. Dalton is playing at a elite level.
Mike Brown gave huge contracts to Green..Dalton..Burfict..Atkins...
whats the Browns excuse?

I'm in the 'reason' camp.

Because of our insanely high turnover rate, we now have rooks or sophs in ALL FOUR of our decision-making positions; GM, HC, OC & DC.

Common sense (at least MY common 'sense') suggests giving these guys some time to develop. And by time, I mean more than 6 games together.

I've seen rookie mistakes with all of them, but so what? It's part of how they learn... and before you know it, they're not rookies any more. At least every place not named Cleveland. Heck in Cleveland we get rid of vets like Norv Turner and Brad Childress after a couple years.

People wonder why the Browns are routinely in the cellar of the AFCN. I'll humbly suggest a look at our competition....

Baltimore: since their inaugural year in 1996: one GM and 3 HC's
Pittsburgh: 3 HC's since 1970
Cinci: 1 HC in the last 12 years.

You know, there really might be something to that whole continuity thing. It seems to work for the rest of the AFCN. And coincidentally, it's the one thing that has never really been tried here. 4 years, max. Only twice.

Truthfully, I can no longer even imagine what it would be like to have a HC for 6, 8, 10 years. A GM/HC combo like that can weather the comings and goings of OC's & DC's. But a wholesale flush/refill EVERY SINGLE FREAKKING TIME is just insanity.

By sticking with the crew in place and letting them grow into their positions a little?


I have no interest in arguing about things that can't be controlled. He has billions of dollars, he owns the team, complaining about him is like complaining about the tides..


Yea, me too. We've tried everything from rah rah coaches, to quiet cerebral coaches, offensive coaches, defensive coaches, FO guys with a lot of football experience, guys with little football experience, drafting QBs in the first round, picking up aging veteran QBs... the only thing we haven't tried, in 16 years, is giving a group more than a couple years to see if they can pull it together and build it...

You know the biggest constant in our excuses? Well it's a new group, they have to insert a new system, they need some turnover to bring their guys in, etc....

But the NEXT one will be the ONE!!!

That's the Cleveland mentality in a NUTshell...

Jets and Falcons both look pretty good with new coaches.

Continuity should lead to wins. Why is it other teams can turn things around in a year or two after reboot, but the Browns need to have a coach 5+ years before winning more than 3-4 games is considered a reasonable expectation?

I'm not considering any team "good" if they can't win games. Moral victories don't get you into the playoffs.

I live in Bronco country(and yes, today sucked!), the Broncos are 6-0 and I hear the same gripes from Bronco fans that I hear from Browns fans. People like to think only the Browns fans are this negative, but it's all football fans, regardless of team.

The Falcons have a ton of talent and were not a bad team to start with. The Jets were decent as well and spent like drunken sailors and are in the largest (or second largest) market in the country. Time will tell if they can sustain that success.

Farmer has hit on some later picks (missed on some, too). But he is oh for four in first rounders, at least so far. There can be no bigger indictment. We should have just picked any pundits mock draft and taken who they said to take and we would not have whiffed all four times. Imagine if we nailed those picks and had four plus-level starters for those picks. WRs, LBs, DLs maybe even a QB. We could easily be 4-2 or 5-1.

If Jimmy is smart(BIG if) he will find a name GM and then a name coach. All it takes is MONEY and he is filthy rich even after the scandal. You offer Cowher or Gruden enough money and they will come. Offer Ozzy a President of Operations title and 20 million a year and he might come....

Haslam needs to embrace one of the benefits of ownership. There is NO salary cap on front office and coaching staff. He can just buy the best available. If he really did want Jim Harbaugh, after the college season is finished he could have him. Offer him enough power and money he could have him tomorrow. Cowher has resited all attempts at getting him back on the sidelines. Offer him 20 million a year for 5 years. He'd be here tomorrow. All it takes is money. And in the corporate world that Haslam lives in, not MUCH money. That's a drop in a very large bucket.

I understand " stuck with Haslam " , I just don't have to like it ( lol ) ..

I see no value in keeping Farmer , way, way ,to many misses .. It gets sticky when you get into the Coaching staff .. I have no problem with Tabor / Flip is growing on me , and I am curious to see what he can manufacture with the cast he has .. O'Neil can get on down the road in my book ..

Now comes the hard one " Pettine " I am not a big fan at this point ( rookie , shoph , Means nothing to me ) I have a hard time separating him from Farmer at times ( me bad ) .. Some of it has to do with personal ( who plays / who doesn't ).. I put the defense squarely on his shoulders ; That is where he came from ! Game time adjustments , clock management all suspect .. We will see how the rest of the season lays out .. Rest assured I will have an Opine by then ..LLLLLLLLL

This happened over a month ago. It was even posted on here. Old news.

j/c...

Losing is the final stat...so is winning.

But there are things out there that tell us the team is legit.I know it doesn't help the sting of losses at all.

Many of you have told us repeatedly that we ON PAPER are a terrible team. But terrible teams don't play games close. Maybe sometimes but not all the time or the majority. Yeah I think the loss of McCown on the first series threw us aback in that opener vs Jets. After that we have won or kept the game to a one score game. We were even gypt out of a game as the Chargers missed a FG and we had a redo with a phantom offside penalty which was over turned by the NFL later in the week which did us no good.

We are close to being a 5-1 team, yeah yeah I know we lost. Well we got to find out how to win those games.

My point is I don't take satisfaction in LOSING but I do take satisfaction in knowing we are...
a. Not far off.
b. Some key players away
c. We do have good young talent.

Its not the days of being totally out manned and just get the Nut once in a while. Nobody is destroying us.

2-4 Sucks! But I still want us to win all our Divisional Games.

And yes we are losing these close games on little things which do include coaches and personnel decisions late in the game.

This does not mean its time for change.
Farmer doesn't need to be fired.
Pettine and staff do not need to be fired.

We have to turn that corner and win most of these close games. Its a sign of Character and right now too many (players) don't know what that is - they want to win but they don't BELIEVE they are winners. Coaches fault? I don't know...they just have to experience the Wins and let it grow - that much I do know.

Farmer first round duds...sorry but Shelton is not a dud...he is not in a position to garnish a lot of STATS but he is a good piece of the 3-4 puzzle to build on.

jmho

• It was Josh Cribbs who famously said, "We almost always almost win."

Cribbs is a regular Yogi Berra.

I don't think anybody believes winning 3 or 4 games 4 or 5 years into a coaches tenure is acceptable...

But this coach took over a team that hadn't won more than 5 in a while and had us at 7-4 in his first year before injuries and other things caused the wheels to fall off.. we are only 6 games into his second year if we did regress, I blame it more on Farmer than I do on Pettine... Pettine should have 6 or 7 first and second round draft picks from the last couple years on this team growing into their positions... and he has almost nothing from that group.

Good point.

I'm on both ends of the spectrum when it comes to Mike Pettine.

If I was going to defend him, I would focus on the fact that although many, many coaches come in and ignite an immediate turn around, Pettine did not come into a situation where there was an established GM with established talent on the roster.

When you look at his situation and compare it to many, he appeared to jump at possibly his only real opportunity to ever be a Head Coach in the NFL.

Compare his situation to one that offers a new coach somewhat of a chance and you have to feel for the guy: Harbaugh I, Harbaugh II, M. Lewis, Tomlin, Kelly, Quinn, .... the list goes on, and on, and on.

On the other hand, maybe the damage that existed when he stepped in has created a situation where he will never be able to overcome all the realities that exist, that he's had to endure, and as unfair as it is, he's run his course with this team and organization.

I'm trying to say that possibly he ran in to the wrong team, at the wrong time, and practically nobody would be capable of taking this situation, at this stage in the process, and turn it around.

Like Belichick, in the future, he may walk in to a completely different situation where there is stability from day one and talent on the roster. He may end up being a winner.

This situation seems to be one of overcoming one disaster and challenge after another with no end in sight.

Cleveland will be in the same spot in the next year or so.

Do you get picked on a lot at school?

It's his drive-by posting style. I always know that when I see one cheap shot one-liner from him that I will see his posts in almost every other active thread.. all one liners, all derogatory, none adding anything to the conversation.

[quote=eotab]
Farmer first round duds...sorry but Shelton is not a dud...he is not in a position to garnish a lot of STATS but he is a good piece of the 3-4 puzzle to build on.

Not to defend Farmer, but rather the players, many are already considering Farmer's 4 first round picks as busts. That includes this years 2 first round picks after only 6 games.

Not yet, but strongly trending that way. Let's settle for "no impact" players for now. The correlation between "no impact" early and "bust" later are rather strong though, so don't get your hopes up too much, dd

I get that and agree. I was just pointing out that so many are judging 2 players after only 6 games.

They started doing that after the second or third game

Just saying, both those teams were already built to win. Atlanta perfect match as a D specialist took over and that was their down side.

Jets Fitzpatrick is having a career year so far - their D had incredible talent and the CBs that were added did a lot to make them a great D.

btw...WE NEVER HAD A COACH HERE 5 YEARS...NEVER!!! So what is this always need 5??? Like its a regular thing.

I think we slowly built our talent due to the constant regime change. We lost talent more due to that "CHANGE" then cause we threw them away. As this is one of the first times we have talent leaving us as opposed to no talent really.

But its been a slow slow journey adding a player here and there that was Good that would survive a regime change.

My point and I guess some others are...LETS STOP BEING INSANE...doing the same thing over n over again expecting a different result.

Lets take a look at the Bengals dare I say...of course they stuck with their HC for maybe different reasons (cheap) but they stuck...we would have fired him maybe 4 times already!

Finally the continuity is paying off. They still will lose in the playoffs cause they are the Bengals. But they are the poster child of Continuity working.

Chuck Noll would have been fired here instead he stayed on and built a dynasty.

I get the 4 first round picks we had in 2 years...although I think the 2 we got this year will be solid players for us for years!

Manziel will become our Franchise QB. There is a good chance for that. I would be behind our guys if they made the switch.

Our OL showed how great they are as they controlled the great D7 of Denver.

Our D played their best game...our QB played his worst game! Our two best D players were/are injured.

I don't get this lets jump ship - I understand we are losing and not winning. I don't lack the fact we easily...EASILY could be 5-1 right now instead we are 2-4 and that is the reality of it all. Winning is always the cure all.
So 22 games into a regime we are trying to rationalize why it would be good to blow the team up - AGAIN, AGAIN, AGAIN....its not rocket science stuff.

Stand back and view Why the Browns have been cellar dwellers since 99. Stick to it. I don't care if its my cup of tea, D & O stick with it - they will become good. Players will get better Coaching will get better. Them who don't belong will be replaced if there is an upgrade. NEW Regime you build the entire team on guys mostly that other do not want! If you get lucky with a staff member who is good - we are their stepping stone to stay in the market!

For CRYING OUT LOUD...LETS Actually Stick it out with Continuity!!!

jmho - I'm trying not to be INSANE.

Hmmmmm.....it works the other way, too.

--Does "Gilber's break-out season" ring a bell?

--Shelton is a beast.

--Erving is the best offensive lineman in the draft.

--Bowe is the big, tall, fast WR we need.

--Duke is going to challenge for rookie of the year.

--Gabriel is going to emerge as one of the best receivers in the entire NFL.

--We are going to have a top 5 defense.

--We are going to have a great running game.

Need I continue?

I'm not really sure where you went with that, or why.

All I'm saying is that this years picks, Shelton and Erving have been here for 6 total games. It's hardly time to call them busts, lumping them in with the other disappointing first round picks.

As I said in my original post on the subject, I'm defending those two players, not the GM.

I went there because people seem to have a problem w/negative evaluations after just a 6 games but seem to have absolutely no problem w/positive evaluations after zero games.

It strikes me as odd and biased.

Although I grasp and feel your sentiment 100% and beyond, I think the phrase you're looking for is "... then reality hit" because the vibe, hope and other emotions we all get, including myself, is a bit over-sensitive and perhaps distorted in the offseason.

Get a taste of the pie though, and you realize it taste like _hit! It's why I learned to keep my comments to "on paper we are..." and "well, perhaps on paper..." and etc etc. Keep my hopes low, get disappointed a lot less.

Fair.

We are also just as close to being a 1-5 team.



I've heard that before...



How do we get these key players when our GM keeps wiffing at acquiring talent?

So you say this:


And then you say this:



22 games is not enough time to declare a coaching staff is bad, but handful of starts is enough time to crown Johnny our QB for the next decade?

Look, I'm not advocating firing anyone, but this staff makes a lot of boneheaded decisions that make me wonder if they will ever win.

Continuity of the sake of continuity isn't anymore of answer than cleaning house every year is.

Just so you know..........I don't consider you one of the blind homers who rip others for not being a homer.

We disagree on some things. We agree on other things. I never get the feeling you are biased, though. You just call it like you see it..........even if you see it wrong.


Just kidding, dawg.

Your comment would actually hold some water if you didn't yell at posters for judging Mingo poorly in his rookie campaign.

We are also just as close to being a 1-5 team.


Umm. 2-4 is close enough...I don't know what point you are trying to make except somehow unsuccessfully discredit any hope there is...lol

Not far off: Don't care where you heard it - more than likely we had a regime change and started over again.

We have had the young talent for around 3 years now. More than the 13 years before.

Trusting Farmer to get the talent: Well I said personally my decision as a concerned fan...give him his 3-5 years to build the team with Pettine. We have tried the change bit...I'm saying lets stick with it. Not have patience with 16 years of mediocre but to have patience with 3-5 for the first time.

Manziel: that is my opinion, he is the only option we have remotely to be our Franchise QB, he is the only prospect with that status.

I watched him and in my opinion think he is our Franchise QB - only thing that can stop it will be Drugs/booze addiction. I'm not suppose to have an opinion? I know what I know. He's the real deal if he stays the Straight and Narrow. I'm all for taking a QB next season as I think its one of those First round QB a plenty. Manziel will be 23 and ready to start. Of course that means another 1st round pick not starting.

Gilbert...I've seen something in him. He doesn't have an attitude he is out there hustling on Special Teams returning but also in Coverage. My only guess is he is not too smart. We have other good young players that have come here.

I mean Shelton is playing good. He's a good pickup. Erving will more than likely be starting next season. We won't be scrambling and reaching.

I apologize for being a fan. You wish to cry and whine that is you choice and rite. Its not my style. It doesn't make me less angry, frustrated or anything else you all do not have a monopoly on that - just like I don't claim to have a Monopoly of Love for the Browns, I know you guys who are negative love them. I got my style you got theirs.

You all want to keep score...it doesn't make you right. Football is football, we are not far off. Deep down, I want the kid JM to start - I think we would have had at least 2 more wins...that is my opinion again.

jmho...why I put it down cause that is what it is!

I don't think anyone actually begrudges you your opinion.

We just get frustrated with it being wrong year after year, after year, after year.

sorry eo but that was funny.

Why do guys like you always resort to the "crying and whining" labels when people disagree w/you?

Do you really believe that your opinion then becomes the correct one, because no one else has any logic behind their arguments? We're just cry babies and whiners?

Pfffttttt.........that is why I can't take you seriously.

doesnt matter if you think vers does it or not. it is the truth. not saying eo in particular but some posters on this board.

If Gilbert and Manziel played for another team like the Ravens and Steelers would be calling them "busts"
If Manziel was a "franchise" QB he wouldn't be sitting behind a journeyman with 8 teams under his belt.
how many teams could he start for now. maybe 1. ?
Justin Gilbert wasn't drafted to be a special teams body. He was drafted to start along side Joe Haden and play on a island.
Face it Farmer is a poor evalulator of talent.
I'm not impressed with Erving. Great he can play 3 spots on the o-line. I rather draft a lineman who's great at HIS position instead of serviceable at 3.
you can a find those kind of lineman after draft day.
Farmer has the worst draft record of any GM in the AFC North and maybe the AFC for that matter.
he has the Browns headed for another sub .500 finish.
thats not progress.

You are mistaking WRONG in the context of my football logic...I am not wrong to say we have the most young talent here since 1999. I am not wrong to state that we have pro bowlers in Joe T, Mack, Haden and Gipson. I am not wrong in my football and the team not being far off.

You all wish to pee on me cause you are frustrated, that is your problem to say I am wrong is just ignorant. Where did I say we would be 5-1 as a predicted some playoff team. I said and I will state it. We have a good chance of winning our division this year. Of course the Bengals have to fall apart. But I also stated we would be 3-3 or better in our division maybe for the first time to prove that we are on the way up.

You ignore all the things I say that are correct and then cause the team is losing more than winning it means all my football is wrong. Please don't debate me over ignorance.

Frustrated, I get that and even say that in my post. You think anyone positive isn't frustrated also?

Get over all your Crapola about reality and taking score on who is right and wrong. Cause your GRADING SUCKS worse than the Browns

It's simple Tab.

You predict year in and year out a strong winning record.

You say that this team is a "team of destiny". You said it before this season and we're 2-4.

And you can argue we have the best talent since 1999, but our record certainly doesn't reflect that. I remember we had seven pro bowlers one year and it still didn't help.

I don't believe anyone questions that you know the game. But even you must admit that your eternal optimism has failed the test year after year.
We're not whiners or cry babies because we have a much firmer grasp on how this team will perform year after year and point out the obvious.

You predict year in and year out a strong winning record.

Actually usually year in and year out the only ONLY PREDICTION I ever make on our win loss column is 16-0 do you think even I take me serious when I do so?

I don't predict squat and actually go out of my way to state that. that I don't do predictions....I just go over the Browns state with a positive view as well as I can knowing football. Its you guys who ASSume what I am saying and in your own minds. I had to make several corrections of MY OPINION just today. One had me stating that both Pettine and Farmer are doing GREAT when I never remotely said that. Just cause I pointed out positives and didn't state one thing saying the negatives were not there.

you guys read one sentence of mine then make up your own Beliefs of what my opinion is and it sticks in your heads. When it is not my opinion at all!

I notice you only cherry picked one of my points to address.

It was your first line...when I read stuff like that I just stop - I didnt read one word afterwards...if you are going to make up a line at least hold off till the end so I can read all your good stuff.

Btw Destiny does not have a finite parameter of achievement. We both know we got to have that QB to make it so. Until then it will be in Limbo. But when I state that I mean it note I dont' follow it up with we are going to win a championship this year. When we declare Manziel to be our Franchise QB...then that is when I expect it to flourish in the Win Loss column...until then we will have these competitive close games. Going to overtime with Undefeated teams. Coming up on the south end more than north.

jmho

Only one we can judge is Shelton. The other guy is a bench warmer. Which is exactly what you want out of a first round pick. If he never plays he's AWESOME. What we MUST have from Farmer is frist round picks that DON'T start. He's three for four in that..... Great job!