Kiper, Jeremiah, Mayock, and a bunch of draft sites have Wentz as the top quarterback. Most have the top three going in the first round.
So here is what I look at when watching tape.
"If" the offense runs plays from under center.
Does the QB make adjustments at the line and have control of the offense? Pre-snap reads, Does he audible?
Are the drops(3, 5, 7 step) from center quick and smooth?
How are the hand offs and play fakes handled? Are they done right?
Pocket movement? Does he climb the pocket under pressure? Can he move laterally in both directions smoothly and under control while keeping his eyes down field?
Eye discipline? Does he stare down receivers? Does he move DB's with his eyes and pump fakes? Under pressure does he keep his eyes downfield?
Footwork: Drops, set up, balance, shoulder position, weight shift, ability to escape, ability to move in either direction, running ability.
Arm: arm slot, delivery, release, spin, ability to throw accurately on the run in both directions.
Arm: strength to all levels on the field, velocity.
Arm: accuracy to all levels, touch, ball placement(especially on screens and plays designed for run after catch), throw guys open.
Pocket presence: ability to handle pressure, hold ball, deliver pass, take hit, sense pressure, internal clock, extend plays.
Decision making: post-snap reads, knowing where to go and when, when to throw the pass away, know favorable match ups, when to take chances and not take chances. ability to go to second and third reads, (this could go on and on.)
Leader: how does he control the huddle? how does he interact with players and coaches, how do they respond to him, (this a visual observation)(not from locker room).
Just some thoughts. I am sure other things will come to mind. Not talking about winning and losing. Not talking about competition. Just what can he do.
Timing comes with reps on offense and working with receivers over time.
So much goes into the position. That's why they get the big money.
I have tried to talk about other positions and players w/you, but you aren't interested. It's QBs 24/7 w/you.
We used to have some great draft discussions. Do you remember the year when we ended up taking TRich and Weeden and all the excellent debates we had leading up to that draft. What happened to that guy?
I hear you. This year I have not even looked at any other positions.
If there was killer pass rusher I would have. Or a Calvin Johnson receiver. Or an Adrian Peterson. Even a guy like Khalil Mack.
It's just that the quarterback position for the Browns has been so damn depressing. And now they have chance with the second pick to get a guy.
At first I was not to big on my first pass through the quarterbacks which was Cook, then Goff, and then Lynch.
I was lukewarm. I liked some things but overall was underwhelmed. Then I started scouting Wentz. The more I looked I started to think wow maybe we got something here.
The thought of having a real quarterback is enticing to me. Actually it is the only thing that is keeping me sane about the Browns. I was over the cliff with the team.
Hue Jackson and the staff along with Wentz is a ray of hope.
Maybe from here on I will get into other players and positions. God knows we need them. Pick 32 and the rest hopefully the Browns can find some answers.
Of course you never repeat how all these quarterbacks suck.
Sorry that was prolly me...I don't like any of them. I think push come to shove, I would take Lynch but not in the first round...maybe OT, or DT...at #2 overall...I am starting to fall off the Bosa wagon
Well............those were really good conversations that you and I..........and others....had that year. I remember how I was totally against TRich and wanted to trade down. Man, that was such a good draft and we blew it. I also remember how you and I were huge on Luck when he was a freshman.
I hope you get around to looking at some of these other guys. You make a lot of good points when you study guys.
Oh........and I am NOT saying any of those QBs suck. Not at all. I think there are probably 4 guys who have the talent to be good. I just think that all have question marks that kinda scare me. Again.........I do NOT think they suck!
Vers I agree all these qb's have ? marks but most have the basics to be good with time and proper coaching. I feel we now have coaches that can teach these qb's what they need to know case in point HJ. The physical tools seem to be there it's how they are taught and how much time they need to learn. With Josh McCown we have a qb who plays decent enough to give a new guy the time he will need.
Our positional rankings kick off with a look at the quarterbacks — perhaps one of the deepest positions in the draft. While the QBs at the top end of the range are not flawless, there are both starters and developmental backups to be found in this draft class. It’s an intriguing group at the bottom range as many of the QBs came into the season with previous warts or little hype, yet they developed just enough in 2015 to possibly warrant a late-round flier.
The NFL has an exclusive club of backup quarterbacks bouncing around the league, but this class may shake things up a bit as there are a number of players who appear best-suited to sit for a few years with hopes of developing into a starter down the road.
Here are the top quarterbacks in the 2016 draft class:
Round 1 Jared Goff, Cal There’s a lot to like about Goff’s game, from his pocket presence to his game-changing throws under pressure, to his ability to elevate an overmatched Cal team in the Pac-12. He posted the top grade among all quarterbacks in 2015 after ranking eighth in 2014, showing well whether pressured or facing the blitz. He can throw his receivers open with anticipation and creativity, and he’s fearless in making these throws even when getting hit. Goff’s short area accuracy could stand to improve, and his decision-making was questionable at times in 2015, but his overall body of work and three-year progression at Cal are too much to pass up for a QB-needy team at the top of the draft.
Carson Wentz, North Dakota State One of the biggest stories of the draft, Wentz ticks all of the boxes in the “looks-the-part” department. He’s much more than that though, as we’ve done an initial grading of his 2015 and there’s plenty to like on film as well. His arm strength jumps out as a positive, and he often needs it as his timing in the passing game is not always up to par. His deep comebacks are a thing of beauty, and his entire skillset screams “vertical passing offense.” If put into that type of scheme, Wentz looks like a quarterback that can win a game by pushing the ball down the field, but at this point, he can also lose it for you with questionable decision-making. He has better touch than other quarterbacks that possess his type of arm, though his accuracy wanes at times when using the change up. Wentz’s athleticism is icing on the cake, and it should be an effective tool at the next level. Wentz’s upside is immense, and he’s best-suited to sit and learn before seeing the field, and that proposition will play an important role in his development. There’s some inherent risk with banking on upside, but the combination of current on-field play and the physical skillset may be too much to pass up.
Rounds 2-3 Paxton Lynch, Memphis The first thing to note about Lynch is his development from two-star high school recruit to NFL prospect as he’s done an impressive job of improving every year since entering college. His +30.5 overall grade ranked seventh in the nation in 2015 as he did a fine job of taking care of the football while flashing the big-time throws you’d like to see from a future NFL quarterback. He’s athletic for 6-foot-7, throwing well on the move (a huge part of Memphis’ offense) and moving the chains as a runner both in the designed game and as a scrambler. The athleticism isn’t a game-changer at the next level, but it certainly won’t hurt. There are some accuracy concerns, particularly at the intermediate level outside the numbers where Lynch posted one of the worst accuracy percentages in the nation. Lynch only averaged 7.9 yards per target — one of the lowest numbers in the nation — so while he has the arm to challenge the intermediate and deep level of the field, he was only asked to do so sparingly at Memphis. He only attempted three passes beyond 40 yards on the season, two of them were well-placed post routes that showed Lynch’s potential. Quarterback stock will always be inflated on draft day, and while Lynch feels more like a second-round prospect, we wouldn’t frown upon his name being called in the first.
Bolded a couple things that stood out to me.
I think Goff is the 1st QB taken this draft, but I think Wentz is a great fit for Hue.
i think if we are going to be forced to take a qb at 2, i don't think any are clear cut top picks, but I think of the pool, Goff and Wentz are the two I'd want. The thing is you start them right away and start coaching them. Not this waiting BS and then when they play they suck and we wasted more years. I'd lean more towards Goff just based on the competition level, and it couldn't hurt to have him in efforts to resign Mack.
i think if we are going to be forced to take a qb at 2, i don't think any are clear cut top picks, but I think of the pool, Goff and Wentz are the two I'd want. The thing is you start them right away and start coaching them. Not this waiting BS and then when they play they suck and we wasted more years. I'd lean more towards Goff just based on the competition level, and it couldn't hurt to have him in efforts to resign Mack.
To me, these sections contradict each other. There is no "clear cut top pick" because none are NFL ready, but then if we pick them you insist "start them right away." I agree, in a perfect world you shouldn't be drafting any of these QB's that high because they aren't immediate impact players. But this isn't a perfect world. If they want Goff or Wentz, they will have to draft them at #2. But if they aren't NFL ready, then don't start them until they are.
With Josh we do have the luxury( if you want to call it that) of letting any QB we take sit and learn. He is good enough to get this team some wins as he proved last year. Josh was not the problem. He knows how to play QB and is willing to help teach a new guy as he has stated. Personally, I think we are lucky to have him as that "bridge" QB.
i think if we are going to be forced to take a qb at 2, i don't think any are clear cut top picks, but I think of the pool, Goff and Wentz are the two I'd want. The thing is you start them right away and start coaching them. Not this waiting BS and then when they play they suck and we wasted more years. I'd lean more towards Goff just based on the competition level, and it couldn't hurt to have him in efforts to resign Mack.
To me, these sections contradict each other. There is no "clear cut top pick" because none are NFL ready, but then if we pick them you insist "start them right away." I agree, in a perfect world you shouldn't be drafting any of these QB's that high because they aren't immediate impact players. But this isn't a perfect world. If they want Goff or Wentz, they will have to draft them at #2. But if they aren't NFL ready, then don't start them until they are.
they don't contradict in the spirit of the post, I merely am stating that we seem desperate for a QB and they aren't going to take their chances below #2, but at the same time, you should play them right away to see what you have, then you're not sitting there 2-3 years down the road with marginal QB play when you can be drafting your franchise QB. This is a passing league and the Qb's are protected more than ever, the days of having QB's sit are gone.
I love what you chose to bold. Freaking hilarious.
I included the Wentz "can lose it for you," too. The Lynch stats were new info for me. What do you want me to do? Not post anything, ever? I've definitely considered it with your delightful posts a large factor on the why bother side.
We disagree on this. I posted in another thread that most major college programs red-shirt their QBs to (among other reasons) let them adjust to the differences between HS and college FB. The differences between CFB and the NFL is even greater. People learn differently and at different paces. Some players can make the adjustment quickly, others need more time. There is no "1 size fits all" approach. Some things can only be learned by playing, but there is plenty that can be learned by sitting and watching. As others have pointed out, there are risks to starting QBs before they're ready; learning bad habits, critical loss of self confidence, and of course injury. If a guy is ready from day 1, great, play him. If he's not, and I think most aren't, it's better to let him sit and learn.
And there is nothing that says he can't be inserted as the starter if he's ready for game 2, or 6, or ...
Same way as Bard's posts and TL's posts need their own brand of decoder... you should start with the premise that there is some level of sarcasm in rs' posts.
I agree. This is a year where we should look to the "extra" we get from FA vets and our own to assist coaching up the rooks.
We need a level of play above what we had last season. We seemed clueless and indifferent, and also stoopid sometimes. I like Wentz. Why turde if you are looking for The Man?
I am saying get a skilled athlete and cut McCown and the coaches loose. Chances are he plays this season. And get him some serious weapons. Handed our QBs a quiver, no arrows last year, until Barnidge emerged; Hartline didn't get enough targets IMO.
Question?...Should the Browns be concerned about the Titans trading out of the #1 slot, allowing another team to draft a player the Browns might be targeting?..such as, maybe a QB?
It looks like the Titans could trade back a few slots and still get the OT they want?
Which team might want to move up to the #1 slot?...maybe SF, with new HC Chip Kelly.
Or do the Browns simply ignore all the possibilities and stay put?
There's not a lot out there on who the FO or HJ likes.
But I would say if the Titans called and said that so & so wants to move up for a QB, then I say fine trade away and take whoever is left. I hope we go D myself, Ramsey seems to be to most gifted out of the top 5.
On another note, that got me thinking, what would you give up to trade with the Titans? If they called and said that someone wants Wentz, well take a 2nd to switch with ya, or maybe a 3rd rd. Would you do it? or would you just take Goff or whoever was left over? I don't know who the QB is that we like, might not be any, but I was just wondering what would you give up if anything to flip flop with them?
And it wouldn't hurt if we actually drafted Tunsil.
That said, the Titans have a high pick QB who took a pounding because of a weak line. We don't need to float we are taking Tunsil. Simply float we have talked to a couple of teams who are interested in our pick if Tunsil falls, and I am sure there really will.
Either way, I don't give up squat to move up. If QB is what we indeed plan to draft at #2 and he is taken, go to plan B. It's not like any of these QBs is a whole lot differnt then the other guy. It's not like we can't get a impact player, and at that point, it would make the choice of trading down a serious option.
Mike Mayock: Browns Should Draft Jared Goff By Joe Ginley  @JoeGinley on Feb 23, 2016, 12:01p 53
Kelley L Cox-USA TODAY Sports Jared Goff is the better option for the Browns according to Mike Mayock.
Two camps have emerged among NFL Draft junkies and team executives: Team Jared and Team Wentz.
Count NFL Network analyst Mike Mayock firmly in Team Wentz.
However, the draft analyst believes Jared Goff would be the better fit for the Cleveland Browns.
Mayock talked quarterbacks during an appearance on the Rich Eisen Show on Monday. The former CBS and NBC analyst focused on the choice between Jared Goff and Carson Wentz.
Mayock began his interview by speaking about discussing the differences between Wentz and Goff, both talented, but very different quarterbacks.
"The first piece of it is some people are Wentz guys, some people are Goff guys around the league. If you're a Goff guy, it's because he's more polished and ready to go day one. He's got beautiful pocket awareness, really good feet, the ball comes out quickly with a quick release, he's accurate with good arm strength.
"If you're Cleveland at No. 2, and you're looking for a quarterback ready to go on day one, he's the more logical guy today."
Mayock then vouched for Wentz, a player he feels can be developed into a great quarterback.
"I look at Carson Wentz, 6'5 1/2 235 [pounds], and he's as good or better of an athlete than Andrew Luck. He has a big arm, he's been under center. He's only started 23 games, and people are going to kill him for being in a Division I-AA program, but I see a guy, who in 2-3 years from now, the ceiling is unlimited. I have him at No. 1 because I love his upside. I'm scared to death that we rarely develop quarterbacks in our league anymore, which makes me worry."
Outside of the top three, the consensus among draftniks is the quality of prospects drops significantly.
Mayock did not stray from this narrative, mentioning Lynch and Cook as lesser options.
"If not Goff or Wentz, depending on what you're looking for today, it's Paxton Lynch from Memphis who reminds me of Joe Flacco coming out of Delaware. [Lynch] has a big arm. I spent three hours with him last week in Orlando watching tape with him and watching him throw the ball. And then the fourth guy with potential and first-round talent is Connor Cook. But Rich, people are questioning a lot of stuff about him, and I think he's taken on some water already, and I think he made a mistake for him not playing in the Senior Bowl."
Interestingly enough, Mayock seems to have a beef with Cook. Mayock talked very negatively of the Michigan State product.
"He had accepted the Senior Bowl [invite] and declined after that. It felt like he could have dealt with a lot of this stuff in Mobile and gotten it over with. So he could have come to the Combine clean and ready to compete. And he should have, in my opinion, this is more important than the other stuff, why wouldn't he want to stand next to Carson Wentz and show this kid from North Dakota State that, 'Hey, I'm better than you.' It's competition. That's what we're looking for. The guy never had 60 percent or higher completion rate in college, there's a whole cast of things. All of this stuff, I would have loved to have seen the kid come to the Senior Bowl and say, 'Look, folks, I'm the No. 1 quarterback in this draft, and here's why. And when he didn't do that, I think he opened himself up to more conversation."
The primary takeaway from Mayock's interview with Eisen? The Browns should take Goff.
I'm inclined to agree with Mayock's analysis on this particular topic, but Wentz also has plenty of promise. What do you think? Tell us if you're Team Jared or Team Carson in the comments section below.
I don't care about the guy who is more ready day one.
This is great. We finally are in a position to grab a legit QB without talking craziness in moving up in any draft.
I'm confident in Huey and Sanders. Whoever they like I'm all in. But I gotta say I'm really liking what Wentz brings to the AFC North. In 2 or 3 years I see this being the Wentz and Dalton show. Berger will be gone and Flacco on his last leg. It's time to pull the trigger.
Peen-Mac-Noone's moving up to #1 in this draft. This isn't Luck who everyone wants. Dallas won't do it because of Romo. They might take who we don't. Jones might take a Prescott later. Frisco needs a total rebuild and won't surrender multiple 1's to do it.
On another note, that got me thinking, what would you give up to trade with the Titans? If they called and said that someone wants Wentz, well take a 2nd to switch with ya, or maybe a 3rd rd. Would you do it? or would you just take Goff or whoever was left over? I don't know who the QB is that we like, might not be any, but I was just wondering what would you give up if anything to flip flop with them?
If we are hell bent on taking a QB, and if we have Went and Goff as a plan A and plan B as you state, then I would rather have Goff and keep the 2nd or 3rd round pick than Wentz. The difference is not that big, IMO.
I stand pat, and after Tenn takes the OT I see if anyone wants to move up for their choice of QB. Ideally we do a couple of small drops and pick up decent return each time (a 2nd this year, or maybe a 1st next year depending on the size of the drop).
We've been good at draft day trades but we have absolutely screwed the pooch when we used those extra picks.
And it wouldn't hurt if we actually drafted Tunsil.
That said, the Titans have a high pick QB who took a pounding because of a weak line. We don't need to float we are taking Tunsil. Simply float we have talked to a couple of teams who are interested in our pick if Tunsil falls, and I am sure there really will.
Either way, I don't give up squat to move up. If QB is what we indeed plan to draft at #2 and he is taken, go to plan B. It's not like any of these QBs is a whole lot differnt then the other guy. It's not like we can't get a impact player, and at that point, it would make the choice of trading down a serious option.
peen...Stories like the one below might create more interest in moving up to #1 in this draft...
I don't care if someone does move up. I wouldn't. I think both Goff and Wentz can be at least plus QB's. Which one turns out to be the best? I don't know.
I am not willing to give up picks either this year or future years. We have a lot of needs on this team, and if you look at only last year, QB wasn't the problem. I understand we need to get a QB we can put in place for the next decade, but we also have to consider other positions as well.
Either way, if we have to take the leftover QB, and QB is indeed the way we want to go, the leftover will be good enough IMO.
Found a series of Qb evaluations that looks pretty good from Thedraftwire.usatoday.com for Goff, Wentz, Lynch and Prescott. Disappointed that I cannot find one for Cook. I skimmed these quickly and they look look pretty good but they are too long for me to go through them in depth before posting. If I tried, I would lose these pages and not be able to re-find them - sometimes it pays to know yourself.
2016 NFL Draft Scouting Report: California QB Jared Goff
By: Jon Ledyard | January 6, 2016 6:24 pm ET Jared Goff
California quarterback Jared Goff threw for a ridiculous 96 touchdowns in three years as a Golden Bear, but will need to answer questions about arm strength and ball placement at the next level.
QB Jared Goff College: California Year: Junior Birth Year: 1994 Height: 6-4 Weight: 210
Strengths Ideal stature in the pocket Adeptly steps into throws with sound lower body mechanics Great pocket presence, feels pressure and moves well to avoid it Keeps his feet active in the pocket while moving through progressions Quick, fundamentally sound release Carries the ball high in his stance Throws with excellent anticipation to release passes as receivers break in routes Flashes excellent touch to drop the ball in the bucket over defenders Consistently accurate enough to put ball in catchable location for target Gets the ball out quickly Arm strength to stretch the field Strong zip on the ball 15-20 yards out Good accuracy on the move, keeps upper body mechanics on point Solid athlete with the ability to scramble when necessary Uses eyes well to manipulate defenders in coverage Started every game possible at California (37) Tough in the pocket, will take shots attempting to make throws RELATED:
NFL Draft prospect highlights: Watch Jared Goff win before the throw Weaknesses Ball location can be an issue, accurate enough to hit target, but not in ideal spot Forces receivers to make tough adjustments at times, even on rhythm throws Good, not great velocity, throws to the far hash can dip significantly Will occasionally force throws off his back foot under pressure Spread offense created a lot of big windows and first read throws, inflated production Inconsistent deep ball accuracy, rushes throws a bit and sails the ball Predetermines throws pre-snap at times Took almost every snap from shotgun, will need work on drops from under center RELATED:
2016 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Memphis QB Paxton Lynch Analysis Jared Goff is a prospect who has grown on me with every viewing, culminating in one of the better quarterback performances we’ve seen this season in California’s bowl game against Air Force. Like every quarterback in this class, Goff isn’t without his issues, but he also displays plenty of skills that should translate nicely to the NFL.
Jared GoffFirst, what I enjoy/appreciate about Goff. He’s exceptionally calm in the pocket, showing the patience and footwork to let routes develop and still hit receivers with excellent timing. His eyes are always downfield, confidently perusing what the defense is giving him and making quick, sharp decisions with a clean release. Goff’s upper body mechanics typically stay very sound, and he doesn’t waste time with the ball in the pocket. We’ll get to his accuracy on a more in-depth level in a bit, but suffice to say he throws a catchable ball the vast majority of the time.
His arm strength has been much-maligned, but even the term “arm strength” is a rather vague one, so I’ll break down what I see for you. Goff doesn’t have the cannon that Paxton Lynch or even Connor Cook have, but he does throw with good zip up to 15-20 yards, largely due to his feet being set and the junior generating power from his hips. He’s especially on point with seam throws inside the hashes, able to drive the ball to a location when he doesn’t have to shift his base.
Outside the hashes things get a little more sticky. Goff doesn’t have the arm to wing a pass from the far hash to the sideline without some fluttering and dipping of the ball. That makes any out-route throw to the far sideline pretty dangerous against NFL corners, limiting Goff’s options a bit.
Throwing deep isn’t much of an issue to me, as Goff actually overshot his target more than he underthrew receivers. He can winJared Goff down the field vertically, but his accuracy is inconsistent, as he’ll flash the ability to drop one in the bucket before overshooting his receiver by several yards. His mechanics look good, but Goff may rush the throw a bit and release the ball a tad early, causing the pass to sail to it’s intended target. His arm isn’t the issue though, and the right quarterback coach will have plenty to work with to improve this area of Goff’s game.
My biggest issue with Goff actually goes back to his accuracy. While he almost always puts the ball in the vicinity of his receiver, too often Goff doesn’t place it in the most advantageous location for a routine catch to be made. Even on slants and digs Goff can be somewhat off-target, forcing the receiver into an adjustment that is not only unnecessary, but can also minimize yards after catch. With smaller windows in the NFL, a lot of these throws can be broken up or even intercepted if they become a regular habit. I’ll have a post with video coming this week to show you what I’m talking about.
Jared GoffThat said, Goff shows advanced tendencies for a quarterback that could lead to him being the first passer off the board in this year’s draft. When forced to do so he’ll work through progressions calmly, move the pocket when necessary, and show the important ability to make anticipatory throws downfield to his receivers. This is especially important for a quarterback with limited velocity, as Goff’s timing will help him win where his natural tools cannot.
When I first watched Goff, I wasn’t sure many NFL teams would be gung-ho about his lack of “upside” due to limited physical capabilities. The more I watch however, I see a quarterback who can win despite those limitations, especially within the right system and with sound coaching. Mechanically and mentally, Goff is a sharp prospect who has improved each year at Cal, and physically he’s not as inept as many would make you believe. I don’t think he’s a top 20 player like some do, and I value him around the same range as Lynch (late first, early second), but I do think Goff may be the most NFL-ready passer in the draft.
2016 NFL Draft Scouting Report: North Dakota State QB Carson Wentz
By: Jon Ledyard | December 28, 2015 11:01 am ET Carson Wentz
Blessed with a powerful arm and an ideal quarterback build, North Dakota State’s Carson Wentz could be the answer for a team looking to develop their next franchise quarterback
QB Carson Wentz College: North Dakota State Year: RS Senior Birth Year: 1992 Height: 6-6 Weight: 231
Strengths Ideal frame and build for a quarterback Good stature in pocket, will stand tall and take a hit to make a throw Calm and composed, trusts his protection and rarely leaves clean pocket Puts great velocity and spin on the ball, can drive the ball to target Arm strength to make throws to the opposite hash consistently Very accurate between the hashes, can thread needles Flashes a lightning quick release at times Can wing it deep, arm strength won’t be a question Shows very good touch to drop passes into the bucket Climbs in the pocket while keeping his eyes downfield, good feel for edge pressure Not afraid to take shots down the field, uses his physical gifts well Improving in his ability to read defenses Throws accurately on the run Adept at running the zone read Very good athlete, tough competitor, ideal mental makeup Smart, hard-working prospect with ideal leadership skills RELATED:
2016 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Memphis QB Paxton Lynch Weaknesses Needs to speed up everything, decisions come too slow Want his internal clock in the pocket to accelerate, can hold the ball too long Struggles to read defenses and more intricate coverages Will trust his arm too much, forcing passes into coverage Needs work at moving through progressions, rarely moves off of first read or flips field with his eyes When moving to second read will sometimes panic and rip it without reading coverage Holds ball too low in his stance, elevating it will expedite delivery Deep ball accuracy is inconsistent, drops some dimes but misses vertical shots too Ball placement is a big concern, makes receivers adjust to off-target throws too often Decisions come too slow to make anticipatory throws, allows coverage to recover Bad tendency to throw where receiver was or is, rather than where they are going Will stare down targets and pre-determine throws regardless of coverage At times will rock back and really load the ball up unnecessarily for driven throws Only 22 games as a starter Broken wrist suffered in Week 6 of 2015 season RELATED:
2016 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Mississippi State QB Dak Prescott Analysis Carson Wentz was dominant for FCS powerhouse North Dakota State during their 2014 title run, leading the Bison to a championship with his arm and his legs. 2015 was intended to be more of the same, but a wrist injury cut short Wentz’s collegiate career after an up-and-down start to his senior year.
Carson WentzStill, Wentz’s rocket arm and ideal measurables have garnered him a ton of attention already in the pre-draft process, and rightfully so. The 6-6 senior shows a ton of poise in the pocket, stepping into throws to zip the ball through tight windows. Velocity isn’t an issue for Wentz, who shows generally sound mechanics to all levels of the field, displaying an arm that can make every throw.
His release can be a little inconsistent. Sometimes Wentz will rock back and load the ball up in his delivery, while other times he zips it out of his hand with no wasted motion. You get the feeling that there are moments he tries to make his release too perfect and robotic, which slows down the process considerably. Again, I think Wentz’s motion is generally solid, but there are still little inconsistencies that show up from time to time.
The mental aspect of the game is still a work in progress for Wentz. He’s improving in his ability to read coverages, but NDSU’s offense offered a lot of predetermined throws that typically made life easy for Wentz. He’s flashed the ability to work through progressions and make good tosses, but the process typically happens much slower than it should. Wentz rarely flips the field or moves a defense with his eyes, often staring down his target until the receiver works open. And when forced to move to a second target, Wentz sometimes isn’t comfortable and either holds the ball or makes a questionable throw.
Anticipatory throwing is another area that gets Wentz in trouble, as he wants to see his target open rather than feel or “throw” the receiver open. This leads to the occasional late throw, something Wentz’s arm was good enough to get away with at the FCS level, but could be trouble in the NFL. Again, this is a very coachable flaw, but one that he’ll have to improve on for timing routes and things of that nature.
Wentz is generally accurate on all short-intermediate routes, especially between the hashes. Occasionally his ball placement canCarson Wentz get sloppy outside the numbers, but his arm strength to zip passes from the opposite hash to the sideline is impressive. Wentz is a bit more inconsistent down the field, but his deep ball appeared much-improved in 2015 before his injury. Wentz throws with the touch and strength to drop the ball in a bucket vertically, but too often he’ll overthrow his target. In fairness to Wentz, the Bison didn’t have much speed at receiver, and I think he’ll fare far better on deep passes when he has NFL receivers tracking the football down the field.
If a team in the draft is looking for a day one starter, Wentz isn’t your guy. He simply isn’t ready from a cerebral standpoint, and has some flaws and weaknesses that can only be worked out with experience and coaching. Wentz also has abilities you can’t teach, and the work ethic and drive to overcome the deficiencies in his game over time. For a team trying to develop a quarterback for long term success, Wentz could be the answer. The physical tools and mental makeup are there, he just needs time around an NFL offense before he’s ready to take the reins. Patience will be the key, but in a quarterback-starved league, Wentz should be a highly-coveted second day prospect come April.
2016 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Mississippi State QB Dak Prescott
By: Jon Ledyard | December 24, 2015 10:11 am ET Dak Prescott
Dak Prescott has been heralded as one of the more exciting college football quarterbacks to watch during his years at Mississippi State, but a closer examination of the tape shows a prospect with a long way to go if he wants to last in the NFL.
QB Dak Prescott College: Mississippi State Year: RS Senior Birth Year: 1993 Height: 6-2 Weight: 230
Strengths Powerful, well-built frame meant to withstand punishment Flashes ability to throw a tight spiral when his mechanics are under control Good, calm pocket presence, will step up to evade pressure and keep eyes downfield When base is sound, can drive the ball into tight windows with excellent velocity Strong frame that stands tall in the pocket despite pressure Mobility to escape the pocket and extend plays when needed, always keeping eyes downfield Works through his progressions while staying calm in the pocket Gets rid of the football quickly/efficiently without taking undue punishment in the pocket Can move a defense with his eyes and mobility, creating windows for receivers where there were none Strong runner in the open field that is tough to bring down Physical, competitive, physically and mentally tough Heralded throughout the college ranks for his maturity, character, and leadership abilities Extremely hard worker who has made strides every year RELATED:
2016 NFL Draft Scouting Report: Memphis QB Paxton Lynch Weaknesses Inconsistency mars almost every aspect of his game, especially mechanically Rocks back with a slight hitch in his delivery when putting zip on the ball Can wind up with longer release when going down the field Tendency to release the ball a tad early, resulting in a sailing or fluttering pass Needs to vary the pace of the ball to match the situation/route (no bullets on screens) Location and accuracy are generally poor, makes receivers adjust to off-target balls and minimizes yards after catch Makes very poor decisions at times, forces passes into coverage Footwork can get sloppy, will fall off his base throwing to his left, loses accuracy/velocity Doesn’t possess the heralded “power arm” that he was once rumored to have Deep ball accuracy is lacking, touch passing needs a compass Does not throw with anticipation, poor timing leads to late throws to all areas of the field Can be confused and fooled by more intricate coverage schemes (ex. Alabama’s pattern reading) Lacks accuracy and velocity when throwing on the move Not a great athlete, heavy-footed and lacking lateral quickness and explosiveness as a runner RELATED:
Draft Wire Mock Draft 1.0: Bosa, Treadwell lead the way for 2016 class Analysis You’d have to look far and wide across the college football ranks to find someone that would say a negative thing about Dak Prescott’s character or leadership ability. One of the all-time most beloved members of Mississippi State’s football program, Prescott has left an impression with fans, teammates and coaches due to his work both on and off the field. He’ll undoubtedly receive the same high marks from NFL teams that value his leadership abilities and work ethic, traits that have helped Prescott become a better pure passer during each of his seasons at Mississippi State.
Dak PrescottThat said, Prescott is still a huge project for the next level, as almost every aspect of his game suffers from tremendous inconsistency. The senior quarterback’s ball location and accuracy tend to diminish the further down the field he throws, and he doesn’t possess the pure arm strength to make up for some mechanical errors. You see flashes of what could be if his footwork and delivery always worked in such perfect unison, as Prescott can drive a tight spiral into a tight window with terrific placement.
Unfortunately those glimpses are too few and far between, as Prescott will often release the ball a touch early, causing passes to sail high, even on short-range targets. His feet are often not set in the direction of his pass, sometimes due to the fact that Prescott will occasionally fall off his base when throwing to his left. The Bulldogs quarterback will make strange decisions with his delivery at times too, choosing to zip the ball when it needs more finesse and vice-versa. I love that he keeps his eyes downfield when on the move, but Prescott’s accuracy and velocity suffer remarkably when he can’t set his feet.
Few have worked harder than Prescott has at improving his cerebral process, and while I love the fact that he’ll stay calm in the pocket to work through progressions and take what is there, the reality is that he can also make some mind-numbing decisions. Prescott will force passes into tight windows when under duress, and more intricate coverage schemes like Alabama’s pattern-reading defense fooled him consistently.
When he’s at his best, Prescott shows a great natural feel for pressure in the pocket, sliding around to re-establish his base anDak Prescott 3 hang tough in the face of contact. There is no doubt that when the mechanics are clicking, Prescott can throw a pretty ball on a rope, but these moments are simply too rare to take a chance on in the first half of the draft. I think Prescott will get snatched up late on day three due to the flashes of talent that are evident on tape and an exceptional work ethic that promises improvement, but right now there isn’t much to show he’ll be anything more than a decent backup someday.
I agree, it's time to stop being led around by the nose and stop pulling a Butch, and just let the draft come to us. Take our bpa and quit biting on all these other teams who threaten to move up on us.
By: Jon Ledyard | December 22, 2015 7:47 am ET 2016 NFL Draft Paxton Lynch pass from pocket
With no apparent top-10 prospect among the class of quarterbacks eligible for the 2016 NFL Draft, Memphis quarterback Paxton Lynch could see his stock elevate quickly this fall, thanks to a powerful arm and ideal measurables.
Strengths 3-year starter Top-notch velocity to fit the ball into tight windows and make lower percentage throws with good consistency Comfortable/accurate on the move, can square up and release quickly Arm strength to throw without proper mechanics/compromised base and still hit targets on time When feet are set, can drop it in the bucket vertically Distance throwing not an issue, rarely under throws receivers Excellent athlete who is elusive in space and tough to bring down one-on-one Love his pocket presence, very calm and collected Great feel for pressure and has the mobility to avoid it Has unique ability to extend plays from the pocket Despite many one-read throws, flashes ability to move through progressions steadily in the pocket Master of the ball fake, RPOs, very decisive Tough, competitive kid with ideal leadership ability RELATED:
Everything you need to know about the 2016 NFL Draft Weaknesses Will all-arm throws on occasion and get sloppy with his feet Ball location/accuracy to the boundary is inconsistent Throws so hard at times that ball will exit his hand a tad late and dip quickly as a result Ball doesn’t consistently spiral or spin aerodynamically to the target Needs to learn to vary ball’s pace at times to make passes more catchable for receivers Still learning to throw with anticipation, could afford to throw tad late in college due to arm strength Tendency to load the ball up and fire, causes slight delay in release Worry about long-term arm strength if current throwing style doesn’t change Lots of one-read, quick hitting throws Will need time to adjust to pro-style offense from largely shotgun, spread scheme RELATED:
2016 NFL Draft Scouting Report: TCU WR Josh Doctson Analysis I won’t go so far as to say that Lynch is a blue-chip prospect, but there are raw skills and abilities that he possesses that perhaps no other quarterback in this class can claim. In a perfect world, you’d like to see a more mechanically sound passer who can spin a prettier ball to his targets, but Lynch has found a way to be successful without top-notch form.
2016 NFL Draft Paxton Lynch shuttleThe biggest reason for Lynch’s prowess as a passer is his rocket arm, which can unhinge passes on a frozen rope to his targets, even without a sound base at times. Lynch’s ability to create gains in the passing game despite a crumbling pocket or compromised mechanics is special, and makes me excited for his ceiling when he does master the details.
The Memphis product is still learning to vary the ball’s pace, but Lynch has already shown remarkable touch and accuracy throwing deep, with the ability to drop passes into the bucket despite tight coverage. His ability to thread the needle in the smallest of windows, whether on the run or from the pocket, allows Lynch to complete lower percentage throws that most quarterbacks cannot.
His NFL system fit offers some versatility, as Lynch shows the presence and developing footwork to thrive from the pocket as a downfield passer, while also being an excellent ball handler and fully capable as a rusher. He’ll need time to master progressions and reads for a pro-style offense, but the comfortability is there to excel in a West Coast attack quickly. I don’t see Lynch as a bad fit for any system honestly, as long as the coaching staff is patient and doesn’t thrust undue responsibility on him too early.
Probably my favorite trait about Lynch is his underrated athleticism, which allows him to escape pressure with quick feet and top-notch movement skills. You’d expect more awkward lower-body mechanics from a 6-7 quarterback, but instead Lynch is a very natural and fluid mover, which allows him to escape pressure quickly while keeping his attention down field.Paxton Lynch Mempis postgame celebration
The best case scenario is for Lynch to sit behind a veteran and refine his throwing mechanics and understanding of a pro-style offense for awhile, but in today’s NFL that might not be possible. He’s currently too reliant on his arm to make plays, but against better competition that won’t always be possible. I’m excited about Lynch’s future, and the fact that his toolset should make him attractive to a variety of different offenses, but I hope whatever team he lands with doesn’t accelerate him to a starting position too quickly and ruin the potential he currently possesses.
The mental aspect of the game is still a work in progress for Wentz. He’s improving in his ability to read coverages, but NDSU’s offense offered a lot of predetermined throws that typically made life easy for Wentz. He’s flashed the ability to work through progressions and make good tosses, but the process typically happens much slower than it should. Wentz rarely flips the field or moves a defense with his eyes, often staring down his target until the receiver works open. And when forced to move to a second target, Wentz sometimes isn’t comfortable and either holds the ball or makes a questionable throw.
Anticipatory throwing is another area that gets Wentz in trouble, as he wants to see his target open rather than feel or “throw” the receiver open. This leads to the occasional late throw, something Wentz’s arm was good enough to get away with at the FCS level, but could be trouble in the NFL. Again, this is a very coachable flaw, but one that he’ll have to improve on for timing routes and things of that nature.
My biggest issue with Goff actually goes back to his accuracy. While he almost always puts the ball in the vicinity of his receiver, too often Goff doesn’t place it in the most advantageous location for a routine catch to be made. Even on slants and digs Goff can be somewhat off-target, forcing the receiver into an adjustment that is not only unnecessary, but can also minimize yards after catch. With smaller windows in the NFL, a lot of these throws can be broken up or even intercepted if they become a regular habit.
Yes. He reminds me of Brady Quinn w/the accuracy thing. I remember Tuck nicknaming BQ "Wild Thing" back in the day.
The other thing that the author did not mention was that Goff makes some really dumb throws. He forces the ball into coverage too often. That might work against Air Force, Washington St, Arizona, and USC, but it won't work in the NFL. Heck, even Goff has said he doesn't know what he was thinking after some of his throws.
I've run into Jon Ledyard before and I'm not sure how much I trust his prognostications. He has A'Shawn Robinson as a 3rd rounder. I did a little research and his twitter bio says he's a high school strength and conditioning coach born in 1990.
I'm not saying his takes are wrong, I'm just not sure of his methodology or track record. His observations seem fairly accurate, but I question how he weights different factors and stacks his board as a result.
What I read seems like a pretty good evaluation of the players as they are now. I don't think that takes a whole lot of talent. Just time to actually watch film and get your thoughts on paper.
As for what to do with those evaluation and how to project them out is where the great GM's make their living.
Did Browns' Hue Jackson hint about QB preference in draft?
INDIANAPOLIS -- Cleveland Browns head coach Hue Jackson has made no secret of his interest in selecting a quarterback with the No. 2 overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft.
He might have clued everyone in to his preference on which QB the Browns take with a comment he made Wednesday at the NFL Scouting Combine.
Jackson said hand size -- a trait that draws a lot of attention when it comes to QBs -- does indeed matter for signal-callers, citing the rainy, snowy weather that QBs will encounter when playing in the AFC North.
Why is this a potential hint into his QB preference?
The top quarterbacks at the combine this week have not yet had their hands measured here in Indianapolis, but the scuttlebutt, per USA TODAY's Tom Pelissero, is that Cal's Jared Goff, one of the top QBs available this year, has "tiny" hands.
Four of the five most recent NFL Media mock drafts have the Browns taking Goff at No. 2. However, NFL Media analyst Daniel Jeremiah has Cleveland taking the other most highly regarded QB available this year, North Dakota State's Carson Wentz.
Wentz, who was measured last month at the Reese's Senior Bowl, has 10-inch hands, more than big enough to suffice for an NFL QB. Goff, an underclassman, didn't take part in the Senior Bowl, so his hand size is a mystery that will go unsolved until, presumably, tomorrow, when he's due to be measured at the combine.
Unless he defies expectations when paw meets tape measure, it won't be a favorable development for Goff, and it could push Jackson into Wentz's corner, if he's not there already.
According to Cleveland.com’s Mary Kay Calbot, Mel Kiper suggested that the Cleveland Browns should have concerns as to whether Carson Wentz can handle playing in cold weather because he’s never played a collegiate game in conditions colder than 34 degrees:
Mel Kiper said one question about Carson Wentz for #Browns is that he hasn’t played in a game below 34 degrees
— Mary Kay Cabot (@MaryKayCabot) February 22, 2016
NDSU plays in a dome. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that... just saying that once again with Wentz, there's no data where people are assuming there's data.
Did Browns' Hue Jackson hint about QB preference in draft?
INDIANAPOLIS -- Cleveland Browns head coach Hue Jackson has made no secret of his interest in selecting a quarterback with the No. 2 overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft.
He might have clued everyone in to his preference on which QB the Browns take with a comment he made Wednesday at the NFL Scouting Combine.
Jackson said hand size -- a trait that draws a lot of attention when it comes to QBs -- does indeed matter for signal-callers, citing the rainy, snowy weather that QBs will encounter when playing in the AFC North.
Why is this a potential hint into his QB preference?
The top quarterbacks at the combine this week have not yet had their hands measured here in Indianapolis, but the scuttlebutt, per USA TODAY's Tom Pelissero, is that Cal's Jared Goff, one of the top QBs available this year, has "tiny" hands.
Four of the five most recent NFL Media mock drafts have the Browns taking Goff at No. 2. However, NFL Media analyst Daniel Jeremiah has Cleveland taking the other most highly regarded QB available this year, North Dakota State's Carson Wentz.
Wentz, who was measured last month at the Reese's Senior Bowl, has 10-inch hands, more than big enough to suffice for an NFL QB. Goff, an underclassman, didn't take part in the Senior Bowl, so his hand size is a mystery that will go unsolved until, presumably, tomorrow, when he's due to be measured at the combine.
Unless he defies expectations when paw meets tape measure, it won't be a favorable development for Goff, and it could push Jackson into Wentz's corner, if he's not there already.
Not sure what the definition of small or big hands are for an NFL quarterback, but I just measured my hand from my wrist to the tip of my middle finger and it is 7 inches.
If Wentz's hand is 10 inches I would think that indeed would be sufficient for gripping the football in multiple weather conditions as my grip on a standard football is shaky when it is wet, but just fine when the ball is dry.
If this is the way it is for most people trying to grip the football then I would say it is important to know how big your quarterback's hands are especially in our division and the playing conditions we face almost weekly.
Not sure what the definition of small or big hands are for an NFL quarterback, but I just measured my hand from my wrist to the tip of my middle finger and it is 7 inches.
Not sure what the definition of small or big hands are for an NFL quarterback, but I just measured my hand from my wrist to the tip of my middle finger and it is 7 inches.
Makes sense since the average hand size for a man is 7.4 inches.
Well measuring the way the articles says to measure my hand is almost 9 inches. I still have trouble in the wet handling a football so I guess another inch or so would be a good thing.
NDSU plays in a dome. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that... just saying that once again with Wentz, there's no data where people are assuming there's data.
wow. They call Dak Prescott "Not a great athlete, heavy-footed and lacking lateral quickness and explosiveness as a runner." Where was that criticism for Goff? Why would we highlight a quarterback's running ability as a weakness? Hmm...
And seriously, they want to kill him for his decision making against Alabama? That was a bloodbath. He was getting crushed *all day*. He ended up throwing for 300 yards and a pick when his OL was vastly overmatched by 'Bama's DL. Then 7 days later, after getting hammered play after play, he came out threw for 508 yards, 5 TDs, and ran for 46 yards and 2 TDs against Arkansas.
wow. They call Dak Prescott "Not a great athlete, heavy-footed and lacking lateral quickness and explosiveness as a runner." Where was that criticism for Goff? Why would we highlight a quarterback's running ability as a weakness? Hmm...
And seriously, they want to kill him for his decision making against Alabama? That was a bloodbath. He was getting crushed *all day*. He ended up throwing for 300 yards and a pick when his OL was vastly overmatched by 'Bama's DL. Then 7 days later, after getting hammered play after play, he came out threw for 508 yards, 5 TDs, and ran for 46 yards and 2 TDs against Arkansas.
I agree the top criticism is pretty ridiculous. He's a pretty athletic dude.
As far as the second, it's harder for me to say. The stats don't tell the whole story. I know in the Senior Bowl he was named MVP, but he threw a horrible pass in the red zone that should have been a pick. I'd have to dig in to the film.
They're in a Dome - what about their Conference...most in the North? I can see the Dome very very cold up there in the Winter.
In his college career? Or last year. Pretty sure I saw a game film with cold (maybe wind chill bringing it down) ??? do we take Kiper as the 100% fact?
Anyways...a negative for Goff did he btw play in cold weather at all?
I would think Cold without wind is not that bad. Cold with wind thats where it takes its toll.
They're in a Dome - what about their Conference...most in the North? I can see the Dome very very cold up there in the Winter.
In his college career? Or last year. Pretty sure I saw a game film with cold (maybe wind chill bringing it down) ??? do we take Kiper as the 100% fact?
Anyways...a negative for Goff did he btw play in cold weather at all?
I would think Cold without wind is not that bad. Cold with wind thats where it takes its toll.
jmho
Yeah, I checked out Goff, too... I don't think he ever played in a game below 40° in college.
JMHO, Wertz better pick than Goff.....SIZE matters, in every situation...poster who said he needs the 480 bridge if hand size matters...go jump off the bridge...Hue J stated at combine hand size matters...cold, wet, wind etc.....size matters...Little Johnny had good size hand, BUT he's small, he got hurt BOTH seasons he was out there....yes, they ALL do, but I want a BIG GUY with talent over a smaller guy with talent....GO Browns!!!! I'm on thw Wertz bandwagon!!!!
Remeber the measurement is from the tip of the Thumb to the tip of the pinky with the hand spread out with the hand on a flat surface. I guess they mark on a piece of paper and then take the hand off and measure the two dots. Not relevant...lol
My point is that 3/8" actually means a lot... was surprised to here though about the 3/8" from Brady...I thought he had big hands. Rodgers I think that was some of the reasons he dropped. His hands are smaller than Bridgewaters... lol
Oh another oddity. Brady and Rodgers both DOCTERED their balls. Confused me why the NFL didn't go after Rodgers...of course he over inflated his balls over the maximum. Both with the same hand size.
INDIANAPOLIS -- Cleveland Browns head coach Hue Jackson has made no secret of his interest in selecting a quarterback with the No. 2 overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft.
Has he really?
He said we are going to get a QB. At no point has anyone said, besides those speculating, that we are GOING to select a QB at #2..
EVEN IF WE WERE.. Why the heck would we outright just say that?
INDIANAPOLIS -- Cleveland Browns head coach Hue Jackson has made no secret of his interest in selecting a quarterback with the No. 2 overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft.
Has he really?
He said we are going to get a QB. At no point has anyone said, besides those speculating, that we are GOING to select a QB at #2..
EVEN IF WE WERE.. Why the heck would we outright just say that?
"We will come out of this draft with a quarterback, I guarantee you that,'' he said at the NFL Combine Wednesday. "Now where it's going to be, everybody wants me to say it's the second pick. Well, it could be, it could not be. I think what we have to do is feel good about where we are in the process of evaluating the guys that are here and then going from there and making the decision what's best for us.''
INDIANAPOLIS -- Cleveland Browns head coach Hue Jackson has made no secret of his interest in selecting a quarterback with the No. 2 overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft.
Has he really?
He said we are going to get a QB. At no point has anyone said, besides those speculating, that we are GOING to select a QB at #2..
EVEN IF WE WERE.. Why the heck would we outright just say that?
Lazy reporting, as usual..
The key word is interest. If it said, "Cleveland Browns head coach Hue Jackson has made it clear that the team will be selecting a quarterback with the No. 2 overall pick in the 2016 NFL Draft," that would be different.
I do appreciate your sarcasm on some other posts. I loved the Rodgers/Goff rookie comparison.
My two favorites were the grammatical joke and when to draft a WR. I don't think too many people got them, especially the grammar joke. Too bad, because both were funny.
2016 NFL Draft: Jared Goff, Carson Wentz top quarterback class
By Bucky Brooks NFL Media analyst Published: Feb. 22, 2016
As we head into the 2016 NFL Scouting Combine, Bucky Brooks is ranking the top prospects at key positions. Today's focus: quarterbacks.
1) Jared Goff, Cal
Pro comparison: Matt Ryan.
Strengths: Polished pocket passer with strong fundamentals and a high football IQ. Goff plays the position like a cagey veteran despite entering the draft after his true junior season. While some scoff at the notion of playing like a "game manager," Goff embraced the efficient approach from the pocket to rack up gaudy numbers as the director of Cal's "Bear Raid" offense. He quickly works through his progressions to get to the second or third option, which allows him to exploit the vulnerable areas of coverage. In addition, Goff will take the swing or checkdown to the running back to prevent opponents from blanketing downfield receivers. From an arm-strength standpoint, Goff rates at a B+ level, but he makes up for this slight shortcoming with superb timing and anticipation. He has a great feel for throwing receivers open and his precise ball placement makes it tough for opponents to disrupt his rhythm as a playmaker. With Goff also showing poise and composure while executing in big moments (two-minute, third-down, red-zone and blitz situations), the Cal standout looks like a Day 1 starter at the position in the NFL.
Weaknesses: Goff's slender frame and arm talent don't scream franchise player at first glance. Skeptics wonder if the 6-foot-4, 215-pounder can withstand the punishment doled out by NFL defenders. Although he was a model of consistency and durability in college, the Cal standout must convince scouts that his sinewy frame can hold up over the course of a pro campaign. From an arm-talent standpoint, few scouts question if Goff can make all of the throws, but the jury is still out on whether his "soft" ball can cut through the wind or inclement weather. Thus, Goff must exhibit enough zip and velocity in drills at Indianapolis and his pro day to put the issue to bed. If he shines as a passer in ideal conditions at the combine, it is hard to imagine the polished player losing his grip on the top QB spot in this class.
Team fits: Cleveland Browns, Dallas Cowboys, San Francisco 49ers, Philadelphia Eagles.
2) Carson Wentz, North Dakota State
Pro comparison: Cam Newton.
Strengths: Big-bodied quarterback with exceptional arm talent and outstanding movement skills. Wentz is a new-school quarterback capable of killing opponents as a pinpoint pocket passer or as a dual-threat playmaker on the perimeter. Checking in at 6-foot-5, 232 pounds with a rocket arm and nimble feet, Wentz has the talent to blend into any offensive system with ease. He routinely delivers strikes to the boundary (outs and comebacks) from the opposite hash, exhibiting excellent arm strength and velocity on tight-rope throws. Wentz complements his fastball game by displaying a feathery touch on seam passes along the hash or boundary. He routinely drops the ball in between multiple defenders with superb touch and trajectory. As a rusher, Wentz is fearless with the ball in his hands on designed QB runs or zone-read plays. He welcomes contact on the perimeter and doesn't flinch when forced to run between the tackles on quarterback power plays. While QB coaches will cringe at his reckless nature as a runner, Wentz's athleticism and running skills could give a creative offensive coordinator an opportunity to add a dimension to the playbook. Considering Wentz won back-to-back FCS titles while growing into the position -- he didn't start at quarterback for his high school team until senior year -- the Bison star has a chance to be a special player as a pro.
Weaknesses: Scouts have been slow to consider Wentz as a franchise quarterback due to the level of competition he faced in FCS play. Although he certainly didn't appear out of place at the Senior Bowl, the speed and reactions of NFL defenders could surprise him, since he hasn't faced many pro-caliber athletes throughout his career. With Wentz still relatively raw and prone to locking onto his primary receiver, the jump in competition could result in the QB acting as a turnover machine early in his career.
Team fits: Cleveland Browns, Dallas Cowboys, San Francisco 49ers, Los Angeles Rams, Houston Texans.
3) Connor Cook, Michigan State
Pro comparison: Carson Palmer.
Strengths: Old-school quarterback with a workmanlike game and winning pedigree. Cook is a gifted game manager capable of taking his game up a notch when needed. He capably makes tight-rope throws to receivers at every level, but also shows the ability to change ball speed and trajectory on touch throws. Cook's arm talent rates at a B+ level, but there are few instances when his lack of zip shows up on tape. He occasionally rips the ball in between multiple defenders to hit an open receiver in a tight window. As a manager, Cook exhibits a strong situational football IQ. He deftly directs the show in critical moments (two-minute, third-down, red-zone and backed-up situations) and his superb ball security (only 22 career interceptions in 43 games) helped him become the winningest quarterback in Spartan history. With most coaches placing a premium on winning over any other trait or characteristic, Cook should rate highly on most boards.
Weaknesses: For all of Cook's success, there are questions about his leadership skills and prickly personality that prevent some scouts from fully buying into his potential as a franchise signal caller. The three-year starter wasn't elected as a team captain by his teammates -- and the snub leads to concerns about his connection with his team. On the field, Cook's accuracy and ball placement are his biggest flaws. He has never finished a season with a completion percentage about 60, which is kind of the Mendoza line for quarterback play. While the vertical nature of the Spartans' offense prevented Cook from padding his stats with layups (bubble screens and quicks), the number of misfires that show up on film lead to legitimate questions about his accuracy on intermediate and deep throws.
Team fits: Philadelphia Eagles, Houston Texans, Los Angeles Rams, Denver Broncos, Dallas Cowboys.
4) Paxton Lynch, Memphis
Pro comparison: Ryan Tannehill.
Strengths: Ultra-athletic big-bodied passer with rare physical tools. Lynch is an electric dual-threat playmaker capable of delivering explosive plays with his arm or legs. The 6-foot-7, 245-pounder throws the ball to every area of the field with exceptional zip and velocity. He fires fastballs to the boundary from the opposite hash, which suggests he has more than enough arm strength to play at the next level. As a runner, Lynch shows exceptional speed, quickness and power for a man of his size. He routinely runs through contact on the perimeter and flashes the requisite toughness needed to execute designed runs in the red zone. With Lynch also displaying a knack for playing well on the big stage (see: Memphis' win over Ole Miss last October), scouts are intrigued by his developmental potential as a franchise quarterback.
Weaknesses: Lynch's success as a dual-threat playmaker is undeniable, but scouts question whether he can thrive outside of the "pick and stick" system that he directed at Memphis. The Tigers star lived on bubble screens, quicks and "RPOs" (run-pass options), but the quick-rhythm throws don't require the quarterback to make complex reads in the passing game. Thus, he will need plenty of time to acclimate to the pro game and a traditional system that requires him to make full-field or progression reads from the pocket. In addition, Lynch's disappointing play against Auburn in the Birmingham Bowl raised concerns about his ability to thrive against elite competition. While he has enough wins on his résumé to counter that theory, the fact that he struggled mightily against a marginal Auburn defense is certainly troubling for evaluators pegging Lynch as a potential star at the position.
Team fits: San Francisco 49ers, Los Angeles Rams, Houston Texans, New York Jets, Denver Broncos.
5) Christian Hackenberg, Penn State
Pro comparison: Jay Cutler.
Strengths: Classic dropback passer with a strong arm and prototypical physical dimensions. Hackenberg not only looks like the traditional franchise quarterback, but he flashes the talent and potential to play the position at a high level (see: Hackenberg's freshman season, under the tuteledge of Bill O'Brien). The Penn State product capably makes every throw in the book with zip and velocity, exhibiting A+ arm strength on throws at intermediate and deep range. In addition, he is comfortable executing vertical concepts off traditional dropbacks, as well as play action from under center or in the gun. Thus, offensive coordinators with old-school backgrounds will view him as an ideal developmental prospect simply based off his impressive physical tools. With Hackenberg also showcasing strong leadership traits throughout his time at Penn State, teams could rate him higher than most envision on his scattershot production.
Weaknesses: Despite immense physical tools, Hackenberg is one of the draft's biggest enigmas due to his poor accuracy and questionable judgment. He misses the mark too often on routine throws and his errant passes frequently result in turnovers (31 interceptions in 38 games). Hackenberg's ball-placement woes are exacerbated by his questionable poise and composure under duress. He lacks pocket awareness (feel for rushers in close proximity), which has contributed to his ball-security issues (17 fumbles at PSU). Although Penn State's leaky offensive line forced Hackenberg to take a beating in the pocket, there are countless examples of the quarterback failing to get rid of the ball before the pocket begins crumbling. Given how often NFL quarterbacks are forced to play amid chaos, Hackenberg's inconsistent poise, accuracy and judgment could make him a turnover machine at the next level.
Team fits: Houston Texans, Arizona Cardinals, Philadelphia Eagles, Pittsburgh Steelers, San Diego Chargers.
JMHO, Wertz better pick than Goff.....SIZE matters, in every situation...poster who said he needs the 480 bridge if hand size matters...go jump off the bridge...Hue J stated at combine hand size matters...cold, wet, wind etc.....size matters...Little Johnny had good size hand, BUT he's small, he got hurt BOTH seasons he was out there....yes, they ALL do, but I want a BIG GUY with talent over a smaller guy with talent....GO Browns!!!! I'm on thw Wertz bandwagon!!!!
I'll go jump off the bridge, but first you gotta tell me who is this Wertz fella you're suddenly fawning over.
Any chance that Connar Cook, the guy whos only talked about negative is not being named team captain, ends up being the best of all of them?
Hell Hackenberg was a "future #1 overall pick" before PSUs Oline gave him PTSD (Probably Taking a Sack Disorder)
Everyone wants to fall in love with one of the "top 3" QBs at #2, and while some have.. tunnel vision like that can lead to ignoring other guys who may be of equal, or possibly better potential..
Okay, that got my attention. Is there anybody that has maybe read Bucky Brooks more than I have who can tell me if he tends toward hyperbole? Because if he's right, Wentz has to be the pick at 2.
Dak reminds me of a less athletic Tim Tebow with a moderately better throwing motion.
Great leader and competitor, not very good accuracy, not very good footwork. I watched some film after clevesteve mentioned some criticism of him. If the Bama tape is worse than the 3 (the 2015 cutups on draftbreakdown) I watched, I'm not sure I touch him before the 5th.
I did not see the Bama game, but I've seen others and I think this kid can be Steve McNair. His footwork is poor, but his throwing motion is fine in my opinion. He's a project, but so is everybody else.
Goff elevated a bad team. Tossed a ridiculous number of TDs against legit competition. Led a team out of the cellar and back into contention.
Wentz played in a run heavy offense on the best team in double A. He played on a great team with a load of support amongst second rate competition. He's a full on development project.
Teams that HAVE a QB can take on development projects. Not us.
Wrong? I didn't say anything about right vs wrong. I was just kinda flabbergasted because you were dissing Wentz's competition and threw in SD State. Who do they play?
You don't have to answer that. I looked it up.
Again...........I don't want either guy. They can both be good. They can both suck. To me, they are both too risky at number 2. That's all.
Wentz hung 34 on Iowa State in his first collegiate start. He's undefeated against FBS schools.
Who was the best DB Goff faced this year? Who was the best DB Wentz faced?
Deiondre' Hall of UNI is the highest projected one I can find, and it was Wentz that played against him.
Goff went 7-5 in the regular season playing with a bunch of guys who are going to get drafted. One of those wins was Grambling State. Who's play did he elevate?
Wentz won a national championship with perhaps one other guy who's going to get drafted.
Honestly, forget all that. Which one has the better traits? Better Arm-Wentz. Athleticism-Wentz. Build-Wentz. Hand size-Wentz. Accuracy- I like Wentz better watching the tape, but I'll give you it's debatable. Playing under center-Wentz. Work Ethic- Both good.
I'm not saying we have to pick him at 2, but if we're swinging for the fences I go with the potential homerun (Wentz) vs. the ground rule double (Goff). Though at this point I might be happy with consistent singles.
Deiondre Hall is not good. Overrated because of his measurables I think. I watched his cut ups on draft breakdown a couple months ago and was not impressed.
My assessment: The best QB prospect for the Browns?
Cardale Jones, Ohio State, yes Ohio State, so what...
1) No QB worthy of #2 overall 2) Could be taken ideally in round 3 allowing two players to be selected ahead of him who have an excellent chance for early impact. He could be available later but I wouldn't take that chance if its determined that he is the pick. 3) Any of the available QBs will need time to develop. None are ready from week 1. All probably could benefit from sitting for some length of time. 4) Only Goff may be technically ahead of Jones at this time. Jones' measurables exceed Goff significantly. Jones measurables and skills exceed Wentz and Lynch. 5) 2014 CFB Championship pursuit, preparation and performance surpass all the QBs currently rated above him. 6) Even in the "down" season of 2015 Jones' completion percentage was 62.5% with a average/comp. over 13 yards, QB rating of 141.5. In 8 starts and 10 appearances. 7) Jones' has the type of arm strength to play in Cleveland in December or later. 8) Jones has demonstrated the mobility and strength to extend plays with his legs. 9) Jones already possesses the pocket presence and poise to operate from the pocket. He makes completions with pressure in his face. 10) Jones allows Jackson to implement a vertical passing attack that he has used successfully elsewhere if this is the scheme he prefers. 11) Jones demonstrates eye discipline on tape. I infer from this that his ability to read defenses and go through his progressions is underrated.
I like the idea of Jones as a plan B should they decide to draft 2 QBs. IF he can overcome his shortcomings, he could be special, but that is a big if. He reminds me a lot of Logan Thomas and I think he would be a 2-3 year project.
If Cardale Jones had done the exact same thing at any other school, he would barely be talked about.
He could of been talked about in the 3rd-4th round LAST Year maybe.. as a "lightling in a bottle" type pick.. which would of blown up in our faces..
But after the season he just had, most people (OSU fans) would have written him off as a "flash in the pan" if he wasnt a Buckeye..
He is immensely gifted, size, speed, and arm talent, sure..
But the dude basically has to be built from the ground up to play in the NFL. And there's no guarantee he (or anyone obviously) ever is able to grasp being an "NFL Quarterback"
Draft Jones if you intend on him being your 3rd QB that never dresses for 2 season..
That is exactly what I have said all along, and I am a huge Buckeyes homer.
Cardale Jones has many of the physical tools you would want, but he needs completely built as a QB. (and teams generally don't have the time to do that much work on the fly, while the season if going on)
I think the worst thing about drafting Cardale Jones is that as soon as our QB has one bad game the, "We need to see what we have in Cardale" chants will start flying. I don't think I could take that!
When you say, "built from the ground up", that says to me that he doesn't already possess tools that are transferable to the pro game. If that's what you mean I disagree completely for the reasons I already stated. If it means that he needs to be developed by sitting behind another player, taking practice reps and working extensively with the coaching staff then we're talking about something else entirely. Jackson's reputation includes developing QBs. There is as much to work with bringing Jones on to the team as Wentz or Lynch.
The read option spread run by Ohio State is not the offense I expect the Browns will run. That offense operates best when you have a QB who can consistently execute the run option. That's not his game. He is a pocket passer. If Johnny Manziel can show on-field progress with his obvious limitations then I'm unconvinced that Jones with the skills he already has can't be molded into an NFL starter.
No, he didn't win the National Championship and then have a uninterrupted meteoric rise to the top of the college football. Despite that his numbers are decent and he is 11-0 as a starter. As I've said before, progress doesn't occur in a straight line. Ask Andrew Luck.
I'm fine with exchanging opinions. But if anyone wants to fall back on the lazy "homer" argument; then let's also apply that same fallacy to Bosa, Elliot, Lee, Apple, Von Bell, etc...
I think Cardale could be a better pro than college QB. I like what I'm hearing about his work with Whitfield.
Having said that, he wasn't very good on the field last season. Did he miss Tom Herman? Most likely. Was he looking over his shoulder? Probably, but that seems to happen a lot in Cleveland, too.
I definitely think he'll benefit from being able to focus solely on football if that is in fact what he does. He's saying the right things to make it appear that he is and will continue to do so, but he's been well coached in dealing with these interviews.
If we don't take a QB in the first, I might take him in the 3rd. Unfortunately, I think someone might grab him in the 2nd. I could see Arians trying to groom him behind Palmer.
But after the season he just had, most people (OSU fans) would have written him off as a "flash in the pan" if he wasnt a Buckeye..
Yeah, it's amazing how many of us Buckeye fans have been pimping him as a guy who the Browns should take.
You say really dumb things.
I was thinking the same thing, I really do not remember a lot of Cardale pimping. There has been a little, but no where near proportional to the number of OSU fans on here.
Whether we go a QB early in the draft or not, I would be OK with Cardale late in the draft. But I think someone will grab him before I would be comfortable taking him.
I'm not saying we have to pick him at 2, but if we're swinging for the fences I go with the potential homerun (Wentz) vs. the ground rule double (Goff). Though at this point I might be happy with consistent singles.
I'm saying we got to pick him at #2... lol
I can care less where we pick him...I want a great QB here FOR ONCE SINCE 1999.
Wentz will be great come on Grimm stick to your pimping...lol
Sorry but I do not believe in the baseball analogy.
Who is the best prospect for the Browns period?
I often hear this guy or that guy is more NFL ready. I get that to a degree but all quarterback prospects have a learning curve. No matter what offense they have run they still have not seen NFL defenses.
Hue made a statement in an interview with conviction: "we are not only looking for a quarterback on the field by a guy who can lead a franchise on and off the field".
We can see by studying tape what a guy looks like on the field. After that we can only go by what is said by others regarding leadership.
Lynch in my view has potential but I believe him to be the biggest risk.
Goff has proven by yards thrown and touchdowns thrown that he can play however long term I see him as Alex Smith. That is not a bad thing. Just not great.
Wentz is the guy with the best upside. He has all the physical tools. Everything stated by the people that have been around him talk up his work ethic, intelligence and leadership qualities.
The only legit negatives are lack of playing time and level of competition. Wentz can not change that. It is what it is.
Wentz will overcome that by hard work, professional coaching, and game time.
What will be the deciding factor is the marriage between head coach and the player. This decision is all about Hue Jackson and "his" guy.
You made that post because you hate Ohio State. Hardly anyone even mentions Cardale. There is no Ohio State bias. Your comments were hateful and petty, but hey, what's new?
Cardale Jones no longer plays for Ohio State, My opinion of Ohio State has nothing to do with the fact that Cardale Jones is a QB prospect that needs probably two years of sitting and learning to have a chance..
I'm ok with drafting Bosa at #2.
If we trade back to the middle of the first and Elliot is the BPA? Heck yeah.. he's extremely talented.
Michael Thomas at 32? Heck I dont even think he will last that long..
But yeah, I'm only critical of Jones because of where he went to school..
If Cardale Jones had done the exact same thing at any other school, he would barely be talked about.
You said this earlier:
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If Cardale Jones had done the exact same thing at any other school, he would barely be talked about.
...
But after the season he just had, most people (OSU fans) would have written him off as a "flash in the pan" if he wasnt a Buckeye..
Cardale hasn't been talked about that much and most OSU fans have written him off.
During the season, you said something similar about Whitner and OSU fans. You were wrong then, too. People are extremely hard on Whit. Much more so than they should be.
Now.........I'm going to say something about what your post could have said:
If Cardale Jones played at a small school like--let's say, South Dakota State, he might be getting talked about as the possible 2nd overall pick, rather than some late-round project.
Cardale Jones’ QB tutor says his mechanics are under construction
by Michael David Smith ProFootballTalk.com February 27, 2016
Former Ohio State quarterback Cardale Jones went from a third-stringer to a national championship-winning starter in 2014, but in 2015 he struggled and went back to the bench. So what kind of pro prospect is he?
According to the quarterback tutor George Whitfield, he’s a good one — but one who needs a lot of polish. Whitfield acknowledged on ESPN that Jones hasn’t quite learned all the subtleties of playing the quarterback position.
“There’s been two main areas we’re trying to work with with Cardale,” Whitfield said. “His footwork, for one, has been under construction since he landed in San Diego. Bringing him from the shotgun up under center, just the mechanics of coming out with the center exchange, the first step from under center, three steps, five steps, seven-step drops.”
Whitfield also said Jones needs to go from being a guy with a big arm to being a guy with an accurate arm.
“His throwing, it’s like taking someone with superhero powers and getting him to use them more consistently,” Whitfield said. “He has an incredible arm. We really haven’t changed anything, but it’s more of trying to get him to be more consistent with that great, big arm.”
Whitfield compared Jones to Ben Roethlisberger and Carson Palmer. But Palmer was a first overall pick, and Roethlisberger led the Steelers to the playoffs as a rookie. Jones is more of a project, perhaps one with a Roethlisberger/Palmer upside.
Connor Cook on playing for his hometown Browns: 'It would be surreal'
By Mary Kay Cabot, Cleveland.com February 26, 2016
INDIANAPOLIS -- Michigan State quarterback Connor Cook, the Hinckley, Ohio native and Walsh Jesuit grad, interviewed with his hometown Browns here at the NFL Combine Thursday night and would love a chance to play for them.
"I think it'd be great,'' he said. "Obviously, growing up a Browns fan, growing up going to the games as a little kid, watching it and visualizing myself being out there, playing in that stadium, playing in the NFL, it would just be a dream come true. It would be surreal."
Cook, who won the 2015 Johnny Unitas Golden Arm Award and Big Ten Quarterback of the Year Award, is one of the quarterbacks the Browns are considering in the draft, most likely with their No. 32 overall pick or later.
If he lands in Cleveland, he'll follow in the footsteps of Brian Hoyer, another Jesuit high school player and MSU alum who played for his hometown team.
Cook (6-4, 217) has been working out in San Diego with quarterback guru George Whitfield, the native of Massillon, Ohio. His workout partner is Ohio State quarterback Cardale Jones, who's also on the Browns radar.
"First and foremost he can throw the ball nearly the length of the football field,'' Cook said of Jones. "The first time he went out there, he was on his knees and threw the ball from the 50 through the uprights not having thrown one pass. So he has a very strong arm, obviously.
"Cardale and I are good friends. We've known each other since the Big 33 in high school. We were able to play with each other then and have very similar personalities, funny, like to goof around, obviously when it's time to work, we get after it."
Unfortunately for Cook, he spent the bulk of his combine podium interview deflecting criticism. He was questioned about not being a team captain, about his apparent snub of Archie Griffin when he was presented with the Big 10 Championship MVP trophy and his decision to skip the Senior Bowl.
He had answers for all three, and Whitfield, who's been coaching him on and off the field, complimented him afterwards for how he handled himself.
As for not being elected captain, he said he was voted a game captain four times last season.
"It's an understandable question: Why wasn't he captain?'' he said. "I'll just be completely honest with (teams). We had a lot of leaders on that team, we had 22 seniors, I believe, we had the leadership council, like I said. If you want to go back and talk to any of my teammates and ask them if I was a great leader, they would say yes."
As for not going to the Senior Bowl, he said his shoulder, which kept him out of the Ohio State game, still wasn't healthy.
"Obviously, the last few games, I had somewhat of a dinged-up shoulder, and I didn't want to risk anything else further than that. I felt like the best thing was to go to San Diego to start training, to start lifting, and getting my body ready for Indianapolis."
In regard to the trophy incident, he said it was blown out of proportion.
"I was excited. I was a little nervous. I didn't think I deserved the MVP, first and foremost. I was thinking about what I was going to say once I got the microphone, wanting to give it to my offensive line just for the way that they played throughout the entire game, especially the last drive. But it just happened real quick, I didn't think anything of it,'' he said.
When he watched it, he realized how bad it looked.
"The first thing that I did was apologize on live television, on BTN, just saying obviously I didn't mean to do it, I felt bad about it, and I was sorry. Then I called Archie Griffin that night and talked to him. I remember, he even said that he didn't even realize what happened until after, when people hit him up. He didn't think anything of it.''
Cook was eager to meet with teams and clear up the misconceptions "that I'm a cocky football player, arrogant, stuff like that. And it couldn't be further from the truth. ... I'm a nice, humble, hard-working kid."
For the record, should anybody care, here are my Qb rankings. This is based on tape review and my projections. What I am lacking is any insight into their heart, desire, work ethic and intelligence as well as medical and other intangibles. I have concerns over Connor Cooks "leadership" issues but will assume that is adequately addressed. I will am also assuming that his shoulder is healed. He said it wasn't completely healed for the Senior Bowl which is why he declined the invitation.
1 - Lynch 2 - Cook 3 - Wentz 4 - Goff
I would love any of these guys at #32. Lynch is the only one I would consider at #2 though I Would not be upset with Wentz if Hue likes him.
For some reason, people saying they are humble rubs me the wrong way.
Having said that, what does being humble have to do with playing football?
I also think the not being a captain thing is overblown. It bothered me a lot for awhile, but what does it really mean? If the knock was "he's a bad leader," that would bother me. I haven't heard that. He lost a popularity contest, big deal.
For the record, should anybody care, here are my Qb rankings. This is based on tape review and my projections. What I am lacking is any insight into their heart, desire, work ethic and intelligence as well as medical and other intangibles. (...)
1 - Lynch 2 - Cook 3 - Wentz 4 - Goff
I would love any of these guys at #32. Lynch is the only one I would consider at #2 though I Would not be upset with Wentz if Hue likes him.
I'm not that high on Lynch, and his new medical questions only strengthen that. Link
He has a pretty long wind up on a lot of his throws. When he tries to speed it up, he loses a lot of accuracy. He also didn't make a lot of NFL throws.
Cook is kind of my wild card. I wish he would have had better receivers.
For some reason, people saying they are humble rubs me the wrong way.
Roger that - when I read "I'm a nice, humble, hard-working kid" I thought that's something you'd want other people saying about you, but it shouldn't be you saying it about yourself.
He definitely has a lot to learn coming from that stupid A$$ offense (all these Qb's do) but watching him throw, he just looks like an NFL Qb to me. I love how, when he gets pressured out of the pocket, he doesn't just take off and run. He clears the pocket and looks down field hoping to throw.
Of the 4 I think he has the best accuracy.
He is by far the best at taking a hit in the pocket and not taking the sack. How frustrating is it when we hit Big Ben for a sack only to have the defender bounce off and Ben throws for a 1st down. Lynch is the only one of these Qb's that I see do that. Wentz is a good runner but when he gets hit in the pocket he goes down.
I loved Lynch in the Houston game. I like to look at Qb's late game comebacks. He led his down the field for a makable game winning FG to end the game. Unfortunately for them the K missed it.
I didn't see the Auburn game and cannot find videos of it, but this was supposedly his worst game. But give a good SEC team a couple weeks to scout that offense, who would expect him to have a good game?
Just saw this morning Billick and Charles Davis talking to Lynch. They asked him "If you could have only one game for people to watch which would it be? What was your best game?" His reply: Ole Miss ... or maybe Auburn. Followed by a laugh.
I loved Lynch in the Houston game. I like to look at Qb's late game comebacks. He led his down the field for a makable game winning FG to end the game. Unfortunately for them the K missed it.
Just curious, did you watch the full game or did you watch it on draft breakdown? Watching the full game I felt like it was a huge choke job. No excuse to give up that big of a lead. Get some first downs, don't turn the ball over, manage the clock. I didn't see that as a positive for him.
draftbreakdown is the only place i have found to watch game film. I don't get to watch a lot of live football. I realize I get all the passes but miss out on situational football.
I did notice that they had a lead and lost it. Idid wonder why they couldn't do more to hold the lead. But didn't see anything that puts the blame squarely on his shoulders other than him being the Qb.
Bone chips floating loose in his AC Joint and you're not concerned at all?
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He definitely has a lot to learn coming from that stupid A$$ offense (all these Qb's do) but watching him throw, he just looks like an NFL Qb to me. I love how, when he gets pressured out of the pocket, he doesn't just take off and run. He clears the pocket and looks down field hoping to throw.
I wish he worked the pocket more and made better throws with a defender coming. When he has time and can wind up and set his feet, he looks like an NFL QB. When he has to speed things up, he looks like Branon Weeden. Admittedly, a much more athletic Weeden.
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Of the 4 I think he has the best accuracy.
When he has time, maybe. Under pressure, no way.
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He is by far the best at taking a hit in the pocket and not taking the sack. How frustrating is it when we hit Big Ben for a sack only to have the defender bounce off and Ben throws for a 1st down. Lynch is the only one of these Qb's that I see do that. Wentz is a good runner but when he gets hit in the pocket he goes down.
Lynch is not Roethlisberger. Against NFL players, I don't see them bouncing off (Mingo maybe). Wentz doesn't have them bounce off, because he is better at avoiding them altogether. I'd rather my QB not get hit.
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I loved Lynch in the Houston game. I like to look at Qb's late game comebacks. He led his down the field for a makable game winning FG to end the game. Unfortunately for them the K missed it.
Wentz has the best numbers on 3rd down and in the redzone. Situational QB Stats Link He won the UNI game with a clutch TD throw. You love that Lynch almost won a game, okay.
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I didn't see the Auburn game and cannot find videos of it, but this was supposedly his worst game. But give a good SEC team a couple weeks to scout that offense, who would expect him to have a good game?
There is a difference between expecting someone to have a good game, and watching someone have a bad game. Auburn was a good SEC team?
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Just saw this morning Billick and Charles Davis talking to Lynch. They asked him "If you could have only one game for people to watch which would it be? What was your best game?" His reply: Ole Miss ... or maybe Auburn. Followed by a laugh.
Bone chips floating loose in his AC Joint and you're not concerned at all?
Hasn't given him trouble. If it ever does it is a very simple clean up procedure with very little recovery time.
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He definitely has a lot to learn coming from that stupid A$$ offense (all these Qb's do) but watching him throw, he just looks like an NFL Qb to me. I love how, when he gets pressured out of the pocket, he doesn't just take off and run. He clears the pocket and looks down field hoping to throw.
I wish he worked the pocket more and made better throws with a defender coming. When he has time and can wind up and set his feet, he looks like an NFL QB. When he has to speed things up, he looks like Branon Weeden. Admittedly, a much more athletic Weeden.
I wish he worked the pocket more too. But that was their offense. He makes a lot of very good throws with defenders coming at him. Nothing about him reminds me of Brandon Weeden. This sounds like a cheap use of buzz words to trash talk him.
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Of the 4 I think he has the best accuracy.
When he has time, maybe. Under pressure, no way.
None of these 4 have great accuracy.
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He is by far the best at taking a hit in the pocket and not taking the sack. How frustrating is it when we hit Big Ben for a sack only to have the defender bounce off and Ben throws for a 1st down. Lynch is the only one of these Qb's that I see do that. Wentz is a good runner but when he gets hit in the pocket he goes down.
Lynch is not Roethlisberger. Against NFL players, I don't see them bouncing off (Mingo maybe). Wentz doesn't have them bounce off, because he is better at avoiding them altogether. I'd rather my QB not get hit.
Wentz by far had the best oline vs dline talent ratio of any of these guys. The NDST talent so overmatched their opponents talent it was almost unfair. Wentz took his hits and when he did went down. Lynch took a bunch of hits and went right down too but there were many that he shrugged off. Will he be able to do this in the NFL? Who knows. I don't think anyone would have predicted Ben to shrug off as many sacks as he does.
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I loved Lynch in the Houston game. I like to look at Qb's late game comebacks. He led his down the field for a makable game winning FG to end the game. Unfortunately for them the K missed it.
Wentz has the best numbers on 3rd down and in the redzone. Situational QB Stats Link He won the UNI game with a clutch TD throw. You love that Lynch almost won a game, okay.
This is a separate discussion. I was commenting about something I saw in Lynch that I liked. Didn't say the other guys never led a comeback.
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I didn't see the Auburn game and cannot find videos of it, but this was supposedly his worst game. But give a good SEC team a couple weeks to scout that offense, who would expect him to have a good game?
There is a difference between expecting someone to have a good game, and watching someone have a bad game. Auburn was a good SEC team?
They were 7-6 but good is probably not an appropriate adjective.
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Just saw this morning Billick and Charles Davis talking to Lynch. They asked him "If you could have only one game for people to watch which would it be? What was your best game?" His reply: Ole Miss ... or maybe Auburn. Followed by a laugh.
What am I supposed to get from this?
Nothing other than I thought it was funny and showed he has a cool personality
I wasn't meaning to criticize, just something I've noticed over the years that trying to evaluate QBs on those cut ups is a losing proposition. It's that sort of thing that killed Carr in people's minds in 2014, when they didn't realize he injured his shoulder on the second drive of the USC game after his TE dropped a red zone TD pass on the first drive.
In this case, a huge play missed by watching pass and QB run plays only was after Houston made it a two score game, the Cougars best defender Trevon Stewart came up from his safety spot to the line. They had a toss called to that side and Lynch didn't check out of the play. Stewart was almost on the RB by the time the ball got there, causing the back to fumble in their own territory. They quickly scored a TD, and you saw how the game ended.
I didn't take it as criticism. There are clearly deficiencies in this method. But it is also the most efficient time wise for those of us who do this as a hobby rather than for a living.
Lots of Qb's will miss that on an occasion or two so hard to know how much to make of it. If it happens a lot then definitely a concern. I don't think any Qb coming out of college will b good at stuff like that. The question is, what is their ability to learn and how hard are they willing to work at it. This in my mind is really what separates Qb's out. This is also the hardest to gauge.
Thanks, Vers. It's my dream to grow up to be you. From the sound of it, I'm well on my way.
Or you could present me something to make me change my mind. Someone gives me something, I'm looking and responding. If you don't like my takes, ignore them.
What makes you think that was a criticism? Your mind is made up. Many options have been presented to you and you shoot them all down. Every single one of them.
So, what was so offensive about my comment? You really don't wish to "get" anything from anyone else. Your mind is made-up.
So I didn't just post about drafting Bosa and playing more 4-3 after you brought him up? No, I'm still somehow pimping Wentz.
How is my mind made up? I've said I'd trade down, and take Robinson or Myles Jack, but nope, I'm still dead set on Wentz.
I'm supposed to take being called close-minded as a compliment? When I'm actually reading everything and taking the time to look at what people are saying instead of posting the same tired argument-non-arguments, I'm supposed to feel good about that?
I think Dak and Lynch are really looking the part. Wentz impressed me with the lack of wasted movement with his feet. I love the turf when u can see the beads pop from his feel being so low. No high stepping footwork.
Wentz great feet. Lynch choppy drop. Prescott a tad high but improving quickly.
All 3 have NFL arms but Lynch has a tremendous deep ball. Again Dak was right there with him. I thought the short to mid range wentz really was comfortable and looked the part.
None of these guys hurt themselves. Its not a special QB class but its full of late mid to late first through low 2nd round talents. bottom Line, I believe either lynch or Dak will be there at 32 and I can live with that and be happy with it.
Disagree with dropping back...JMHO, Wertz looked very solid, he was way better than Lynch, only competition is Goff....has better arm and upside....we've "settled" on Qbs to many times...IF our HC wants him, I'd for sure put his card in at 2.....Go Browns!!!
Wentz (who is the best by far imo, but the competition level is concerning) Goff (doubt his arm the more of him I see) Lynch ( all the physical tools for sure) Prescott very similar to Lynch imo....both 2nd round guys) Driskel ( 3rd/4th round guy)
I wouldn't touch any of the rest of them including Cook.
Jared Goff outclassed the competition during the first throwing session of the NFL combine, dazzling while fellow high profile passers like Michigan State's Connor Cook and Penn State's Christian Hackenberg were much more inconsistent.
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But for a quarterback who rarely was asked to drop back from center in college, Goff was remarkably smooth whether asked to take three-, five- or seven-step drops Saturday.
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Perhaps most importantly, the ball came out of Goff's hand with impressive velocity, easing concerns that perhaps the spread offense he'd starred in under Sonny Dykes at California had masked a below-average arm.
I'm not sure who all threw in the first throwing session, so Goff looking the best of that group should not come as a surprise. Wentz was in the 2nd, and I think Lynch was as well. By the time they got to the throwing, I was pretty sick of watching the combine.
He does look pretty smooth throwing on air, I'll give Goff that.
From just the throwing drills at the combine, excluding game film, interviews, measurement etc , I would rank the top 4 Qb's
Goff Wentz Cook Lynch
Yes, Wentz looked good in his drops as several have pointed out but I actually thought Goff looked smoother. Goff has a lightning quick release. Again no knock on Wentz but Goff was smooth. Also looked like Goff looked off the safety on some throws during the drills.
Lynch is listed at #4 but it is a distant 4. We now have a a baseline on him. We'll see how much he improves by his pro day.
Cook was solid. Nothing too impressive but nothing detrimental, though there is significantly less footage available on him.
Damn guys, Wentz looks like a Natural. Reeks confidence.
2 horse race here. Now we need Huey, Hamilton and Saunders to put these guys through the ringer in Berea based on what we're going to run offensively.
Both these guys are silky smooth. I'm still giving the nod to Wentz. Tie breakers? His size versus Goff's slinky frame and his hands. If Goff was 9 1/2 I wouldn't care if Wentz had 15's. But 9 is cutting it dangerously short.
JMHO but I believe Wentz will be our Rothlisberger in 2 years. And in 3 years the AFC North is gonna be a 2 horse race Wentz VS Dalton.
Well for me my mind definitely is made up...Open mind sure but There are few options at #2 so its easy to make it up by now. Wentz is my guy and it only gets better
Now unfortunately we know way to often - what can go wrong will go wrong. So that possibility is there. Please no Like somebody jumping to #1 to take Wentz...there is no either or. Our guys (Hue is going to fall in love with one QB...not going to take 2nd place just because)
I came into this looking at one QB - that was Cook I think he is going to become a Good NFL QB. If we lose the opportunity on Wentz then we could drop back if we do not wish to take Tunsil and get a pretty penny cause he is far and away the best OL in this draft 2nd isn't even close.
I can see us moving up into the first mid to late 20's to get Cook if there is a chance to lose him or get him at 32. We would be in a good place with that investment also...not as much as I believe in Wentz that kid has Superstar written all over him.
Cardale throwing the ball on his knees...only one other QB I remember doing that. Overall #1 pick out of football. Jamarcus Russell.
Quote: But for a quarterback who rarely was asked to drop back from center in college, Goff was remarkably smooth whether asked to take three-, five- or seven-step drops Saturday.
i think it would be a lot easier to look smooth in a workout than it would facing the heat of an nfl defense every week. that's when you revert back to habit.
I think both Goff and Wentz are going to be pretty good NFL QBs it's just a matter of choosing which you prefer. Goff is the more ready of the two and the only issue I see with him is his slight build and smaller hands. Can he take an NFL hit and can he grip the ball well enough in Northern Ohio winters. With Wentz I think he has a slightly higher ceiling and the only issue I see with him is can he read coverages fast enough at the NFL level since he only started for a year and half at a lower college level.
I have little doubt that the Browns will pick a Qb at #2.
Why? Because the guys on this message board are in love w/them or did you hear something from the Browns?
Again, I think that getting one of these guys at 32 would be worth the risk, and yes, there still would be a risk involved. I just think they are too risky to draft w/the second overall pick.
I have little doubt that the Browns will pick a Qb at #2.
Why? Because the guys on this message board are in love w/them or did you hear something from the Browns?
Again, I think that getting one of these guys at 32 would be worth the risk, and yes, there still would be a risk involved. I just think they are too risky to draft w/the second overall pick.
Like you, I don't see a guy good enough for the second pick. but the pressure is on in Cleveland (as with a lot of teams) and I think it's very possible that both Goff and Wentz are gone in the top ten.
I know we need a QB badly. We don't have a ton of options as has been reported by every news outlet, Johnny is as good as gone (and I believe that).
We have the 2nd and 32nd pick. I'd like to see Goff or Wentz with 32 but realistically, neither will be there.
I also like that kid out of Penn State, he'll be there until the Texans pick and not beyond. My guess (and it's just that) O'brian won't let him get away.
Connor Cook will be there when we pick at 32 I think. But he's got question marks.
Hell, every QB in this draft has question marks. There is no Andrew Luck or Payton Manning. There may be a lot of Ryan Leafs and Johnny Manziels however.
I have little doubt that the Browns will pick a Qb at #2.
Why? Because the guys on this message board are in love w/them or did you hear something from the Browns?
Again, I think that getting one of these guys at 32 would be worth the risk, and yes, there still would be a risk involved. I just think they are too risky to draft w/the second overall pick.
I have no Browns insider information. Just putting the pieces together.
1, We need a Qb. McCown can get us through part of this season. Given his age and style of play, I have serious doubts that he can stat 16 games.
2, Until Qb is settled, there is always going to be a cloud hanging over this franchise. I just don't believe a team can progress without a stable Qb situation. No extrapolating this statement. I don't think a tram needs a HOF Qb at the helm. But I firmly believe that the QB needs to be a solid player and a good leader for the offense.
3, Wentz and Goff have shown enough in season to be "deemed worthy" of going in the top half of the 1st round and post season have done nothing to change that.
4, The Qb position has the greatest impact on a team. Drafting a QB that is perennially in the top 3rd of NFL Qb's has greater impact than drafting a player at another position that in top 3 in the league at his position. If you have a greatest of all-time type talent that could be different.
5- I see no players in this draft that give me confidence that they will end up a top 3 player at their position. None make me think they have GOAT potential.
6, I would love to be able to pick a top 3 in the NFL at his position type player at #2 then one of the top 4 QB at #32. No guarantees one will make it there. Just too risky. To many teams need Qb help. If we pass on QB I can see Dallas taking Wentz, SF Goff, Philly Lynch and Houston Cook.
I had more but was trying to type this while watching a movie and lost my train of thought. But this is a good start to my reasoning.
There's good reason to believe that 4 QBs will be gone after Houston picks at the dreaded #22 slot in the first. More than one mock I've seen has the Texans taking Connor Cook there. Cleveland, LA, SF, and Philly are believed to be looking QB in the 1st round, so Cook might possibly not even make it to 22. That would force O'Brien and the Texans to make an epic reach at 22, or wait til the 2nd and take either Hackenburg, Prescott, or Cardale. Even in the 2nd round, those guys would be reaches. On CBS's big board, they are ranked 71, 115, and 140, respectively.
The point is, if teams need a QB, they need to get him early. Happily for the Browns, that will not require a big reach, since Goff and Wentz are both top ten (on the big board I'm referring to - CBS Sports). Goff is at #4 and Wentz is at #10.
I think the opposite will come from the analytics approach.
I see the goal of analytics as
1, giving value to stratify each position and determine need at those positions
2, giving a method to eval players that more accurately values their ability -not just draft eval but also for evaluating current players and determining exissting team needs
3, provides a reproducible method of doing such evaluations making trading up/down on draft day less hit/miss.
4, provide a methodology for melding need/talent to rank players
Of course this all sounds great in theory. What it comes down to in the long wrong run is the execution of the analytics. Analytics won't work if the equations you use are flawed or the subjective components used are off. How do you analyze a players heart? Or their feel for backside pressure?
Sorry for the side track. This is a post for the analytics thread but a direct response to your post. I don't want to change the topic to make this an analytics thread so no more anaylytic talk from me hear.
I think what really separates Wentz from Goff for me are the things that are hardest to quantify.
To me Wentz just has the Favre-like joy in playing football. You can tell he loves it. He's always smiling. Mooch was trying to "grill" him, but he was still enjoying talking football. I like that when his career is over he wants to coach. I like that he's a physical education/health education major with a minor in psychology (with a cumulative 4.0). You can see how that translates to football/coaching. I've scanned his twitter feed and its all about faith and football. I think our football team needs all the positivity it an get. I think he does a good job of dealing with adversity. He broke his wrist, but he still made an adjusted plan to keep working out, and he increased his film work with his backup.
Goff just seems flat at times. Goff is a football player, but I'm not sure he loves it. I don't like how he said he knew midseason it was time to go to the NFL, or how he felt he proved everything he could at the college level. Link It kind of made me feel like he's okay with mediocrity as a team, and we have enough of that already. He's a sociology major, and that doesn't scream football to me. His twitter feed is talking about music and soccer. It may seem over-analyzing, but I think that stuff matters.
By Mary Kay Cabot, Cleveland.com on February 27, 2016 at 7:29 PM, updated February 27, 2016 at 8:06 PM
INDIANAPOLIS -- The Browns should draft Carson Wentz over Jared Goff at No. 2, a handful of NFL draft experts at the NFL Combine told cleveland.com Saturday.
"I would take Carson Wentz, especially since I know the coaching staff," said noted draft expert Greg Cosell of NFL Films.
Cosell said the veteran, quarterback-savvy Browns staff would know how to develop a small-school prospect like Wentz, who played at FCS school North Dakota State. What's more, he's started only 23 games, going 20-3. The Browns offensive coaches have tutored the likes of Kurt Warner, Carson Palmer, Joe Flacco, Andrew Luck and Andy Dalton.
"They have Hue Jackson, Pep Hamilton, Al Saunders and Kirby Wilson,'' said Cosell. "They have coaches who have been in the NFL for a long time and I think that's absolutely critical.''
Like Warner, an NFL Network analyst, Cosell believes that Wentz won the quarterback workouts Saturday, beating out Cal's Goff, Memphis' Paxton Lynch and Michigan State's Connor Cook, a native of Hinckley, Ohio.
Wentz finished tied for second in the 40 with a 4.77, tied for second in the broad jump and finished third in the three-cone drill. He also displayed a strong arm, good footwork, nice touch on the shorter routes and a quick release.
"Hands down, Wentz (6-5 1/4 237) was the best quarterback in these workouts,'' Cosell said. "Hands down he shone above everyone else.''
But Cosell relies on his extensive film study in grading the passers.
"Since I've watched both on tape, I'd say Wentz has high level traits, the kind of traits that make you think if he were to become what he could be that he'd be a top five kind of quarterback in the league,'' Cosell said.
Like NFL Network's Mike Mayock, Cosell believes that Goff (6-4, 215) might be more ready now, but that Wentz has more upside potential.
"Goff is a really refined player for a 21-year-old quarterback, really good pocket mechanics, really good feel for the pocket, does something that not even some pro quarterbacks do, which is he moves his feet with his eyes, which is a really refined trait for a young quarterback,'' he said. "So Goff to me is more refined, but Wentz has the higher-level traits.
He said the fact Wentz played in a pro-style offense in college while the other played in a spread doesn't push him over the top.
"I'm not a huge believer in that because I think you can teach guys,'' he said. "It's like receivers when you say they only ran three routes. I think if you coach guys well, if they have change of direction and good movement skills you can teach guys how to run the route tree. I think with a quarterback you can teach your offense.''
He added, "both guys from what I can gather have come across very well and are generally smart kids.''
One high level NFL talent evaluator who doesn't need a quarterback but studied the current class said he'd go with Wentz because "he's stronger, a good athlete, a good thrower, played in a pro offense and won national championships.''
One NFL offensive coach said, "all things being equal, go with the size.''
Still, another NFL offensive assistant said Goff has done it for longer and Wentz is coming out of nowhere. He's leery. "No one heard of him until the Senior Bowl,'' he said.
Before the workouts, NFL Network draft analyst Daniel Jeremiah said Wentz was his top QB. The session confirmed it.
"Everybody focuses on the level of competition, but to me I believe he's the top quarterback in this draft class,'' he said. "A lot of it is because of what he's asked to do. He's under center, he has a lot of control in that offense.''
Although Warner crowned Wentz winner of the day, he also likes Goff.
"Jared Goff, I don't know if you see as much of what makes him a pro ready quarterback out here in combine drills,'' he said. "It's his speed inside the pocket, it's movement, quick release, those two guys I thought looked very solid.
"That's one thing that really impressed me with Jared Goff when I watched him on film -- tremendous pocket awareness but the ability to move his hips and get the ball out quickly in that small, little box is impressive."
As for Mayock, he seems to be favoring Goff for the Browns because he's ready to step in now, and Wentz for the Cowboys at No. 4 where he can sit awhile behind Tony Romo.
"Now if (Wentz) had to go in and play this year, do I think he could take his lumps and do that? Yeah,'' he said. "But I think the healthiest situation for that kid in a franchise is to give him a year behind an established starter, even in Cleveland.
"If Cleveland took him. Go to Cleveland, spend a year learning the system and learning what you're doing and a year from now you're the guy. I think that's healthy.''
Why is Goff more ready now?
"The advantage Wentz has is he's been under center,'' he said. "He's done a lot in the protections. You could see his footwork, it was good. The difference is he's played 23 games and he's done it at a lower level. I didn't see the same pocket awareness.
"When I watch Goff I see a guy sliding, moving around in the pocket, going from one side of the field to the other making every throw. I don't think Wentz is at that point yet as far as being quickly able to do that and I think he needs a lot more reps.''
Still, another NFL offensive assistant said Goff has done it for longer and Wentz is coming out of nowhere. He's leery. "No one heard of him until the Senior Bowl,'' he said.
Wentz was on my radar as a top QB prospect before the CFB season started (or just after) and I'm just some schmuck sitting at a computer. This guy is a member of an NFL offensive coaching staff and had never heard of him until the Senior Bowl? I think that is more a knock on him then on Wentz.
I told my son after I saw him on the whiteboard with Mooch it put him over the top.
I agree with your take completely. I would only add that just because I see Wentz as the better prospect that does not mean that Goff can not be a very good player.
Last year I was totally sold on Mariota. At the same time I still felt that Winston would be very good. I just thought that Mariota was the better prospect.
Anybody catch the combine yesterday when Stave and Wentz were running their first 40s? They accidentally switched to the wrong audio when Stave finished and Charles Davis said "is it as bad as he throws it? Awful." Then someone else said "and as I texted this morning... The next former starting quarterback of the Browns" and they showed Wentz lining up to run. Then they abruptly went to commercial.
To illustrate my point about how difficult it is to project anything Wentz did in FCS to the NFL, for as fast and athletic as he looked against FCS defenders, he's got the 40 time of Joe Flacco.
To illustrate my point about how difficult it is to project anything Wentz did in FCS to the NFL, for as fast and athletic as he looked against FCS defenders, he's got the 40 time of Joe Flacco.
The problem is that those FCS defenders are sooo slooow. Zero recovery speed. So a receiver gets open Wentz can be late with the throw and still complete it whereas against an SEC it would get knocked down or picked..
Unfortunately it is really hard to make that determination watching those throws. Grabbing any of these Qb's will make me both excited and nervous at the same time. But I have to trust in Hue and hope for the best.
The comment wasn't intended to disparage Wentz. It was intended to point out how difficult he is to "scout the player" because of the competition he played against.
Wentz looks fast in his games but Ben and Flacco are slow Qb's. Yet their 40 times are similar
From everything I am reading it seems like Wentz is as good as any qb in this draft with more upside. If our FO likes him and drafts him we should give him the time he needs to learn whatever that may be. We have Josh who is capable of giving us decent play until Wentz is ready and is willing to mentor. We can't make the same mistake we always have and rush these guys. JMO
I understand what you are saying but it will take some time for the game to slow down for CW especially coming from the conference he played in. Not to mention he has to learn a new playbook. Josh's experience puts him ahead right now.
However, if they do believe one of these QB's can become the franchise QB we've longed for since the return then I'm cool with that too.
Spiritbro posted this in another thread and it raises an issue that I have been wanting to talk about. I am moving it here to try to keep thread integrity.
A lot of people use the term Franchise QB. My issue is that I don't think we are all in agreement about what a franchise Qb is. We just all know that we want one.
I think a lot of us feel that Franchise Qb = Elite Qb.
My feeling is that is not an accurate statement. I don't think a Qb needs to be elite to be a franchise Qb. I think a franchise Qb is a guy who is the face of the franchise. When you think of a team you think of him. A guy who comes into training camp as the undisputed starter this year who you expect to be the guy who walks into camp as the undisputed starter 5 years from now unless he is injured or he decides to retire after having had a career with your team. When you have one of these guys your franchise feels set at the Qb position
A couple examples to illustrate:
Tom Brady - clearly elite, clearly franchise Qb Matt Ryan - not elite but he is a franchise Qb Andy Dalton - not elite but he is a franchise Qb
David Carr - not elite but he is probably a franchise Qb might be too early to tell
Josh McCown - not elite, not a franchise Qb
Where this definition gets sketchy is when we need to be subjective about it. Sam Bradford. Currently no chance of being a franchise Qb but I would argue that he was a franchise Qb when he was with the Rams. Not a very good one but one nevertheless.
An interesting discussion might be Peyton Manning:
Peyton Manning Colts - Elite and franchise Peyton Manning 1st year with the Broncos - elite but not franchise Peyton 2015 - not elite, not franchise
That would be my assessment but I could see some having a valid argument for Peyton being a franchise Qb his 1st year with the Broncos
I think we get into difficult discussions about Qb because different people define franchise Qb differently. I think some of us equate being a franchise Qb with being an elite Qb whereas others do not. Or is that just me? Am I just an outlier? Do I need to change my definition of franchise Qb? I am cool with that. I would just like for us to come to some consensus about how we define the term franchise Qb because it gets used far to often to be left as ambiguous as it is now.
I think the term "franchise qb" is a subjective thing and you don't need to change a thing. I think it is simply a short phrase that helps sum things up while debating, but has very little significance.
I think this term gets thrown around enough that it should be defined.
Think about how many posts you have read the state something similar to: if you think one of these guys can be a franchise Qb then you need to take him.
If we are going to use this term as much as we do, I just think we should have a clear idea about what people mean. Many times I read something and if franchise Qb means Tom Brady/Big Ben Franchise Qb then I absolutely agree. But if they mean Matt Ryan franchise Qb then I am a little hesitant to agree.
We don't agree about taking a qb at number 2, but I enjoy how you explain things.
Thanks Vers.
I am not opposed to the idea of taking a non Qb at #2 under the following conditions:
1, there is a guy at #2 that we feel pretty confident about becoming a perennial all-pro - do you have this player identified?
2, we are pretty confident that we can get Cook or Lynch using the #32 pick - whether that's at #32 or as part of a trade back into the 1st round, though I am pretty sure analytics won't let us trade to #22 to do that.
I don't see a big drop off between the 4 but I worry about availability at #32. I combine that with not seeing a lot of drop-off between whatever non-Qb guy we would take at #2 and the alternative we would get at #32 either but we get more options because of position flexibility. We don't have to take a LB we could take a Cb or DE or Wr.
I see no way that we use our 1st 2 draft picks and not use one of them to draft a Qb unless we sign a free agent or trade for somebody before draft day.
Another piece of data today. People point to Wentz playing Deiondre Hall as an example of a "good corner" Wentz faced in college because some online numbnutz convinced people he's a good corner. He isn't, but that's not the point of this. Hall just ran a 4.68 40... the slowest of any corner so far by a full tenth of a second. It's an entirely different proposition comparing Wentz (or any FCS player's) tape against an FBS player.
Again, that's not saying Wentz can't be good, I'm saying you essentially cannot say he has shown he can do anything against NFL-quality players. He definitely threw some nice balls on Saturday, but we have no idea if he can do it at the speeds required at the NFL level. And it is another piece of evidence of how he seemed like a superman-level athleticism when in NFL terms he is very average for a QB.
There are just too many unanswerable questions to draft him at 2.
Who was the best tackle Bosa got a sack against? None against Indiana, MSU, or Notre Dame this year.
Bosa lined up on the left side most of the year, so he wouldn't have been facing Spriggs, Conklin, or Stanley much at all. But at least the caliber of player he built his tape on is comparable to his peers.
Wentz was better than his peers, little JF had some good footage and many stated he could be a "decent" QB if he wasn't a complete a.. off the field...don't see Wentz as a Newton right off the bat AND he won't be Big Ben either because of supporting cast...JMHO, he has an upside AND he has no red flags.....GO Browns!!!! PS in a visit can we have him throw against our DBs or someone's???
Cam Newton wasn't Cam Newton right off the bat.. his game didn't start evolving into what it is now until his 3rd year. A lot of local folks thought after years 1 and 2 that he was a bust waiting to happen who would never be good enough reading defenses and throwing from the pocket.
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AND he won't be Big Ben either because of supporting cast
So you are saying drafting Wentz doesn't guarantee us starting 13-0? I'm bummed now.
A lot of people use the term Franchise QB. My issue is that I don't think we are all in agreement about what a franchise Qb is. We just all know that we want one.
I think a lot of us feel that Franchise Qb = Elite Qb.
My feeling is that is not an accurate statement. I don't think a Qb needs to be elite to be a franchise Qb. I think a franchise Qb is a guy who is the face of the franchise.
I am in agreement that terms are best defined, especially within a heated argument.
The problem is, that even if we come to an agreement of definition for "Franchise QB" here, someone will likely use the term in 3-4 days, having not read or forgotten Jester's post (or simply no agreeing with what he said) meaning something else and the point of this discussion is lost.
Here's an idea; set up forum "Definition of Terms." Atop the forum have a sticky post listing the agreed upon term definitions and under that proposals/discussions of terms to be included. Once a consensus is reached, the sticky can be updated. Then, in the course of discussions, we all have a common understanding of what is meant, and if you want to use it with a different meaning, you specify what you mean.
You also have to remember that Grimm criticized Cousins for playing against terrible defenses, yet never mentioned the defenses that Wentz faced.
Let's just say he is not the most objective poster...
I knew you would jump on my post the second I hit submit, but my economics class was starting and I figured to he'll with it.
I have said that Wentz' level of competition is a concern, but at the same time, Bosa didn't really face NFL caliber players much either.
The Draft is a projection business, that's why so many picks bust. Football is not easily broken down into quantifiable data that you can compare "apples to apples". There are an insane amount of variables that affect every play.
Wentz looked like his skills translated when he played bigger schools (Iowa State) and he was the best QB at the Senior Bowl. I didn't see him look like it was too fast for.him there.
I think Wentz has some of the best intangibles in the Draft and I find myself putting an emphasis on them after our recent failures.
The percentage of NCAA players that play pro ball is small. Then you factor in schedules. It is not like the competition level week in and week out is what they will face at the pro-level.
Of course the power conferences get better players. No dispute there.
However, when you watch players; you scout the player.
Does the guy make football plays? The fact that Wentz is now considered a top ten pick or higher by the people that cover this means they believe he can play at the pro level.
Yesterday I was at my Mom - In Law's 1 year memorial. My boys (when we got to the Diner) was like... "DID you HEAR!?!"
"The NFL announcer who thought he was off mike after their discussion on QBs for the Browns."
he stated and my boys don't lie... " The Browns next EX-QB!"
I expected to see it discussed all over here...but not a word. What an insult I'm wondering who??? Nobody else heard about it? I wanted to start a boycott of NFL Network...I would take it off my Direct TV...of course when football comes after Labor day put it back on...lol
I mentioned it in another thread. They were talking about Wentz after the audio channel got switched up. It also caught Charles Davis saying Stave's throwing was "awful."
"The Browns next ex-QB" quip was made by Chris Rose, an admitted Browns fan, and he remarked about that when questioned after the fact. The old rule, you can say things if you're a fan that you can't if you're not a fan. Fans give fellow fans more leeway.
Yesterday I was at my Mom - In Law's 1 year memorial. My boys (when we got to the Diner) was like... "DID you HEAR!?!"
"The NFL announcer who thought he was off mike after their discussion on QBs for the Browns."
he stated and my boys don't lie... " The Browns next EX-QB!"
I expected to see it discussed all over here...but not a word. What an insult I'm wondering who??? Nobody else heard about it? I wanted to start a boycott of NFL Network...I would take it off my Direct TV...of course when football comes after Labor day put it back on...lol
I didn't hear it and haven't heard about it... but it's hard to blame them for saying those things until we prove them wrong.
The percentage of NCAA players that play pro ball is small. Then you factor in schedules. It is not like the competition level week in and week out is what they will face at the pro-level.
Of course the power conferences get better players. No dispute there.
However, when you watch players; you scout the player.
Does the guy make football plays? The fact that Wentz is now considered a top ten pick or higher by the people that cover this means they believe he can play at the pro level.
I agree with you bonefish.. there are guys who succeed in college who do not have the skill set to succeed at the next level. For example, you have WRs and CBs who succeed in college for the simple reason that they are just faster than almost everybody they play against... so when they get to the NFL and everybody is faster, will they still succeed or can they run routes, use good technique, etc? You also see guys who succeed in college because they are very smart and tenacious.. is that enough to carry them in the NFL if they are lacking the ideal speed and strength?
You have to take what you see on tape, look at the measurables from the combine, and project into the future.. it's a very inexact science.
For ten years I coached in East Cobb Baseball age bracket 13 to 19. Baseball America ranked the program number one in the USA.
During that time I saw twenty players make it to the Major Leagues. Players came from all over to play in that program.
Never mattered where they came from. They were judged by the talent they came with.
The NFL and the Hall of Fame has plenty of players that came from small schools. You get your tryout. If you can cut it; you play.
The first time I saw Wentz on tape; I kept looking because I know what I saw. This young man can play. What I find the most interesting at this point is what this guy is made of off the field, behind the scenes, on the whiteboard, from his teamates and coaches, academically, leadership. All the kinds of things that show if he can lead a team and a franchise.
That is where they failed with Manziel. There was no doubt he had some football skills. What he did not have rose to the top quickly.
Here is a little advice: There are a few of you who are actually making it very hard to like Wentz. Your bias is over the top. You are not objective, which automatically alienates people.
Try being a bit more fair. It will actually help your crusade.
Here is a little advice: There is one of you who are making it very hard to take anything he says seriously. Your bias against Wentz is over the top. You are not objective which alienates people.
Try to post something constructive. It probably won't help your crusade, but at least it might be worth reading.
It's not that you say terrible things about Wentz, it's that you refuse to admit any of the positives. Any time someone says something positive about Wentz, you have complained. Recently, you have literally been the most negative person I have ever met (and I've spent months at a time at sea, so I've been around some pretty negative people.) If you laid out the positives and negatives of both players and said you liked Bosa better, fine. But you act like Wentz has no redeeming qualities.
I'm sorry that I snapped at you a bit, but I'm kind of swamped with work right now and I'm feeling kind of grumpy.
It's not that you say terrible things about Wentz, it's that you refuse to admit any of the positives. Any time someone says something positive about Wentz, you have complained. Recently, you have literally been the most negative person I have ever met (and I've spent months at a time at sea, so I've been around some pretty negative people.) If you laid out the positives and negatives of both players and said you liked Bosa better, fine. But you act like Wentz has no redeeming qualities.
I'm sorry that I snapped at you a bit, but I'm kind of swamped with work right now and I'm feeling kind of grumpy.
I will provide context. Vers is a self described contrarian and has stated so. He is pretty faithful to the concept. Anything that is the general consensus he is against. That is his mantra, his motus operandi. So he loves anything the consensus is against and loves the opposite. Hence the love for Banner. He loves challenge. And he was right on Bridgewater, although Carr would have been the tougher but correct choice.
Feed him if you wish, and I will occasionally do so, but you have to understand the nature of the beast.
after the injury history come out on lynch I think he will slide to the 3rd round. MIght could nab him there. Not sure he is worth the risk though anymore. The guy had tomo romo fragility issues.
I'm all on board for Wentz now at #2. It's time we take a QB at a spot where the team has no choice but to get on board with the pick and finally support that QB.
The first time I saw Wentz on tape; I kept looking because I know what I saw. This young man can play. What I find the most interesting at this point is what this guy is made of off the field, behind the scenes, on the whiteboard, from his teamates and coaches, academically, leadership. All the kinds of things that show if he can lead a team and a franchise.
I agree. I'm a little sick of hearing this level of competition BS.
It's time to go way beyond all the physical stuff and arm strength because this kid has it all. As Polian says, he checks ALL the boxes.
Now it's time to grill him on NFL level things. We're in good hands with Huey, Pep and Saunders. Put him through the ringer when he comes to Berea. Goff too.
I'll tell you what was impressive over the weekend. When Marriucci laid out that play on the whiteboard, talking quickly, then sat down and did his best to distract Wentz. Wentz walks up to the board and lays it out exactly as Mooch did. Loved it when Mooch was interrupting him and he said quickly, "Wait a minute, you didn't let me finish".
Nailed it. This kid can be our Rothlisberger going forward. Take him and get him ready.
Sensible analysis. Billick wanted to knock him for school size, competition level, speed of the game, and just to gin up negatives to provoke controversy. Stinks.
Kid has played well, has the arm, and won everything he could. I think he will need to adjust to many things like every NFL rookie does. But to write him off for some of these reasons is baloney. I liked Wentz very much. Judge the individual is solid advice that I agree with.
well personally I like to stick as close to the threads as possible.
This happens to be about Quarterback Shopping in the Draft forum. I would expect a lot of talk going on about drafting a QB on here. I try to skip posts that you have a back and forth with other poster that are not football related so I don't know all the facts.
Right now Wentz is starting to be most analyst #1 QB...and after they declare that they go - BUT THE BROWNS HAVE TO PICK GOFF... Typical Bozo stuff. A is the best QB but the Browns should pick B
And B has a 9 inch hand with Fumbling history in Sunny freaking California...yeah that's the ticket.
And I'm insulting the Analyst not posters here as several like Goff. Apologies.
If we Go #32 I like Cook always liked Cook this BS about not being voted QB and yet he was Game Day Captain (I believe, not 100% sure voted on by the players) 4 times during the season. They had something like 20+ Seniors on that team and many leaders. If that is all anyone has and again I'm disappointed with the analyst cause they didn't give any technical reason as a flag. Just the Captain thing.
If we go even later in the draft and skip the position all together or look to take a #3 I like Nate Sudfield from Indiana.
By the way Hattenberg I don't know if anyone mentioned it his hands are 9 inches as well. Which in a lot of cold weather games at Penn State or other cold weather I saw the ball like pop out of that hand and float way over the target. I think one of his first throws at the Combine di one of those too. How do such tall guys have such small hands. (No Trump Jokes please...lol )
The "discussion" was about the level of competition. What I said about baseball was an analogy about competition level. You show up with what you have. If that is good enough; you play. Makes no difference where you came from.
You take a quote out of context to try and prove an argument I have never made about Bosa.
Here was what I said in another post about Bosa: ==================================================
"However, when you watch players; you scout the player.
Does the guy make football plays? The fact that Wentz is now considered a top ten pick or higher by the people that cover this means they believe he can play at the pro level.
That remains to be seen. The same goes for Bosa. =========================================================
Please show any quote that I made in reference to Bosa that he can't play.
The discussion in reference to Wentz was that whether you come from OSU and the Big Ten, or NDST and the FCS you have to prove you can play. No matter the competition level.
Have I made myself clear?
If you don't like Wentz; so be it. Don't fabricate something about Bosa that I never made.
Just because myself and others are on the bandwagon about Wentz that does not mean that you can't like the guy.
You want my opinion about Bosa just ask on another thread that is not about quarterback shopping.
Sensible analysis. Billick wanted to knock him for school size, competition level, speed of the game, and just to gin up negatives to provoke controversy. Stinks.
Kid has played well, has the arm, and won everything he could. I think he will need to adjust to many things like every NFL rookie does. But to write him off for some of these reasons is baloney. I liked Wentz very much. Judge the individual is solid advice that I agree with.
The issue I have is, even though Wentz may be the best of the bunch of QBs this draft, and I agree with that, I feel he is the best of a bunch of second tier QBs. I don't think there are any first tier QBs in this draft.
Nonetheless, the best of the bunch typically goes high in the first round even if they're not first tier talent. I think that's why the boom/bust rate for QBs drafted in the top 10 is about 50%. Too many of them are drafted above their talent level by QB needy teams.
I think the boom bust rate is so high because they go to bad teams and dysfunctional organizations. I don't think busts at the top are position specific. (See Trent Richardson, Justin Gilbert, Barkevious Mingo)
How are you defining your tiers? Are you applying similar criteria to other positions? Who are your top tier prospects?
Wentz scouting report sounds a lot like Cam Newton's (Link) to me, except he didn't have the one year of mercenary work at a big school.
Would it make the projection easier if Wentz had played at an Auburn? Maybe (Most Likely). If Bosa (insert player you like) had played at NDSU would you like him any less? He'd still be the same person.
No matter who we pick he's gotta be in a "healthy" environment. Hopefully, we've finally got that figured out.
I like Bosa, Ramsey, and Wentz (along with a few other players at the top), but Wentz's leadership and positivity push him over the top for me. We've got to find a way to dispel the negativity that all too often seems to suck the life out of this team. We need a face of the franchise.
I believe there are better players in this draft than Wentz. I believe Tunsil, Bosa, Buckner and even Jack would be better impact players right away.
However, the position of QB is always elevated in every draft. This isn't some new phenomenon or some shocking revelation. I can't think of a QB since Luck that didn't have question marks surrounding them. So this "sure fire bet" some keep promoting simply is almost never there.
I wouldn't be disappointed with any of the players I mentioned above with the #2 pick. I also won't be disappointed if they select a QB at #2. You're almost assured to NEVER be in the position to draft the top QB in the draft, and then, even when you are, there's almost never a "Luck type prospect" in the draft. Using that logic, we wouldn't draft another first round QB in 50 years.
While I'm not strictly promoting drafting a QB at #2, if they do, I believe that QB should be Carson Wentz. Yes, there are a few questions that surround him. But I do believe he has the potential to be a very good QB. Better than anyone else in this class.
Arians said that in evaluating quarterbacks, he tends to focus less on the arm strength, mechanics and several other factors that scouts and experts tend to obsess over this time of year. “To me, the quarterback position is just about one thing: that’s processing information really fast,” Arians says. “If you can process it, I don’t care how weak your arm is or how strong your arm is, you’ll get the ball to the receiver at the right spot, the right time. If you can’t process the information and you’re going to wait to see him open, you’re going to throw a lot of interceptions.”
Things at Qb have clearly delineated to Goff vs Wentz as the top 2. Lynch and Cook are clearly 3 and 4 but there is a huge separation between the 2 groups.
Pre combine, I liked Lynch but after seeing him try to do some of the things he was asked to do, I was disappointed. I thought he needed to sit a year but now I think he will need to sit 3-4 years. He is just sooo far behind the others. As a franchise we don't have that luxury. It may be an overreaction but I think I would move Cook ahead of Lynch at this point (for the Browns).
Comparing Goff and Wentz:
Goff has a quicker release
Wentz is bigger and has a stronger arm
Wentz had good footwork but Goff's was a little smoother
Goff seemed to throw with better anticipation - related to difference in arm strength?
Both seem to carry themselves well overall but neither came across as having that compelling personality. Last year, I see Mariota and think this is a dude I would like to chill out with a beer and just hang with. I look at Winston and don't like him. He seemed fake and insincere to me. I wouldn't have beers with him if he was paying for them. This year I look at both of these guys and get the same ambivalent feeling.
Both had good accuracy at the combine. Every throw I saw from Goff was perfect. I saw one bad throw from Wentz and one maybe throw (it was hard to see clearly). Obviously I didn't see every one of their throws.
Conclusion: I would be okay with either. I think the decision comes down to a couple things.
1, What all does Hue want his ideal Qb to be able to do physically and can both guys do it. I think Wentz can do pretty much anything you ask. I am not 100% certain Goff can. He might but I don't know. Hue should be able to tell rather easily.
2, How quick are they at making decisions? Goff has shown us exactly what his decision making skills are as compared to other Qb's who have come out in recent years. How quick of a decision maker is Wentz? I don't know. With his arm strength and the competition he played against he didn't need to be a quick decision maker to be successful. Vs that competition Weeden would look like a quick decision maker. This is not to say that Wentz is a slow decision maker. It raises the question of how quick/slow he is. It isn't as clear cut a comparison with him. I think this will be more difficult for Hue to figure out.
I don't know which of the 2 I would pick. I will put my trust in Hue and completely back whomever he decides is the best fit for his offense. These are my own personal observations. I think I did a pretty good job of staying unbiased because I don't have a favorite dog in this show.
I think analytics should push us towards one QB over the other..
Hoping we trade down a spot or two.. Dallas isn't drafting a QB. Not this year.
Trade down AND get our QB?
If we think one of these QBs can be our starter for the long-term, we need to take them at the 2 spot. Getting cute is just too risky.
I want to trade down and get the best player, not QB.
In my opinion, none of these guys are "franchise" QB's. So when they mess up and start losing, the scouts will immediately start looking at the next draft class for a replacement. Wentz, Goff, and Lynch will all have short strings.
Who says they'll mess up and start losing? I know that's the prevailing attitude, but it's part of the problem. We expect failure at that position/as a team.
It's a scout's job to look at the next draft class anyways.
What position wouldn't have a short string? What's the average tenure of a player on the Brown's roster?
I think the boom bust rate is so high because they go to bad teams and dysfunctional organizations.
I think that's a part of it too. But I'm not overlooking desperate, needy teams reaching for lesser talent high in the draft.
I don't think busts at the top are position specific. (See Trent Richardson, Justin Gilbert, Barkevious Mingo)
I agree, it's not just QBs.
How are you defining your tiers? Are you applying similar criteria to other positions? Who are your top tier prospects?
I have never tried to evaluate draft talent. The most I've done is read a couple of easy to find scouting reports to get an idea of some players. That and I pay close attention to a few members of this board who have their finger on the pulse and a good track record predicting draft players. This year I've read tons of reports on Wentz and Goff. There were a few that rated both QBs as proposed 2nd round picks. That's what made me think about tiers.
Wentz scouting report sounds a lot like Cam Newton's (Link) to me, except he didn't have the one year of mercenary work at a big school.
In that link you posted they graded Cam at 8.19 and Wentz at 6.23. Below is how they describe their grading system:
GRADE TITLE 9.00-10 Once-in-lifetime player 8.00-8.99 Perennial All-Pro (Cam) 7.50-7.99 Future All-Pro 7.00-7.49 Pro Bowl-caliber player 6.50-6.99 Chance to become Pro Bowl-caliber player 6.00-6.49 Should become instant starter (Wentz) 5.50-5.99 Chance to become NFL starter 5.20-5.49 NFL backup or special teams potential 5.01-5.19 Better-than-average chance to make NFL roster 5.00 50-50 Chance to make NFL roster 4.75-4.99 Should be in an NFL training camp 4.50-4.74 Chance to be in an NFL training camp NO GRADE Likely needs time in developmental league.
If their grading system is correct then Wentz barely makes the tier of "should become an instant starter". With both of them graded as rookies by the same people/system Wentz has a ways to go to go to reach a Cam Newton rookie grade of "Perennal All Pro", and a year of mercenary work ain't gonna put him there.
I think that grading system defines the tiers pretty well. By the looks of it, and remember, you posted it first, for accuracy, Wentz is well below a 1st tier player. I don't want to draft a player at that tier at #2 overall. It's reaching.
As shown, his score is closer to the tier below his, "Has a chance to become NFL starter" than he is the tier just above, "Chance to become Pro Bowl-caliber player.
Would it make the projection easier if Wentz had played at an Auburn? Maybe (Most Likely). If Bosa (insert player you like) had played at NDSU would you like him any less? He'd still be the same person.
For that you'd have to ask the people who actually grade them.
I like Bosa, Ramsey, and Wentz (along with a few other players at the top), but Wentz's leadership and positivity push him over the top for me. We've got to find a way to dispel the negativity that all too often seems to suck the life out of this team. We need a face of the franchise.
I agree somewhat with what you say there. But I caution that we don't make another mistake of reaching for a player through desperation.
I was more looking at the actual strength and weakness write ups than the number at the top left when comparing Wentz and Cam. I've never really seen the formulation of how they come up with those numbers. For comparison's sake, Bosa's only a 6.8. I think a lot of the time NFL.com tweaks those numbers after the initial posting. The highest number this year is only a 7.7 (Tunsil). Wentz' 6.2 puts him as the 20th player with the Unupdated numbers, with Jaylon Smith one of the players still above him. I expect Wentz' grade will rise now.
There were people projecting Wentz and Goff in the 2nd, but some of those same people are projecting them high now. People were saying they'd take Gabbert over Cam. I think Wentz was projected there because of concerns about his level of competition, but has alleviated them somewhat now that evaluators have seen him more in person.
I had an exam on Monday. I'll find out how it went today, hopefully. I've been carrying a 4.0 so I'm really not too concerned, but I've actually had to work for it a little bit in that class.
Wentz is my guy this draft. If we're talking about other people, I'll try to stick to them. In a QB thread, I'm pimping Wentz.
They showed a simple slant in the beginning I think the 2nd one was below the knees...not what you would call perfect for a simple slant.
On the first or second 15??? yard out. He threw behind the WR so that he had to stop and catch it on the left side of his body...probably an INT and likely pick 6.
This is going on memory and they didn't show all the throws. Far from perfect.
I know probably I would be guilty also we like a guy and then we tend to exaggerate on their success.
Take a look and see how many of these guys have actually won Super Bowls.
Then, take a look at the guys who were drafted in the top 3 of the draft and see how many have won Super Bowls. Eli is the only one.
Next, take a look at all the busts on that list.
People talk about how the Browns HAVE TO take a qb at number 2, but the data suggests otherwise. If I mention that defenses are important and that Denver won this past one w/a great defense, then someone will mention Joe Montana or Tom Brady. Have people forgotten how great the 49ers roster was?
Building off of that, Montana was drafted in the 3rd round. Brady in the 6th. R. Wilson in the 3rd. Farve was traded for. As was Steve Young. Brees was acquired in free agency. Wasn't Kurt Warner stocking shelves in a grocery store? Trent Dilfer played w/numerous teams. So did Rich Gannon.
I think that you take the qb if there is a great one there, but forcing the issue by reaching for a guy just because you need one only compounds the problem.
Look at some of those guys on the list. Locker, Ramsey, Campbell, Gabbert, Losman, Sanchez, Grossman, Young, Leinart, Quinn, Weeden, Timid, Manziel, Manuel, etc and then look at their teams SINCE that qb got there. Most are perpetual losers.
Some will use that as a defense for the QBs, but one might want to consider that investing so heavily in a qb can be albatross to franchises because of the huge commitment they must make to that qb. Passing on better players hurts. Passing on better qbs in free agency, trade opportunities, and future drafts are absolutely devastating.
You want to invest in a qb w/the second overall pick? Then, be sure your guy is the guy rather than saying "but, we need a qb."
I wonder what the analytics would say about that chart???
lol... I'm certainly not saying we need to draft a QB at 2, but the only reason the 2011 #1 overall QB pick didn't win the super bowl was because his team got beat by the 1998 #1 overall QB pick.
I really don't know what we should do Vers. The biggest difference in the QBs that succeeded and the ones that didn't that I can see is the talent they had around them. That doesn't bode well for us. At the same time, that is true for other positions, too.
If we can keep the oline together, Duke and crow progress, barnidge keeps his play up, Gordon gives us his good season numbers and we find another receiver in the second/third round, Wentz would have some things to work with.
I'd like to add a pass rusher, but you can't always fix everything in one offseason on a roster as in need of help as ours.
Bosa's position worries me. I can't stop worrying about Dockett's complaints about Horton's system.
I would love it if Spence dropped to the top of the 2nd. There he'd offer too much upside to pass despite those pesky red flags.
I just read that Knighton's a Free Agent? Think he at nose and Shelton at DE could fix our run D?
I'm not suggesting we NEED to draft a QB at #2...I am suggesting we draft Wentz at #2 for our QB.
In that list of QBs drafted. The #2 slot QBs are only McNabb 1999, RG3 2012 and last year Mariota 2015.
None of them were at #2 and the First QB taken.
The only thing I fear is that somebody moves up to ONE as Wentz becomes the ideal stud QB of this draft.
Also as bad as our teams have been we have never been picking as early as the #2 overall pick since 2000 when we were #1. We have never been in the position to take the FIRST QB taken - except if there was a year that had no top QB and the first taken, Sanchez??? is not worth it.
I don't see Sanchez in Wentz.
If the worst happens then I don't want us taking the next best (Goff) unless for some reason some team would move up to #1 to take Goff...lol
Now keep in mind - I AM SOLD ON WENTZ...which means nothing. The key is - Do the Browns, Hue and others see what I see. If they are sold on him then he is our guy!
Things at Qb have clearly delineated to Goff vs Wentz as the top 2. Lynch and Cook are clearly 3 and 4 but there is a huge separation between the 2 groups.
Pre combine, I liked Lynch but after seeing him try to do some of the things he was asked to do, I was disappointed. I thought he needed to sit a year but now I think he will need to sit 3-4 years. He is just sooo far behind the others. As a franchise we don't have that luxury. It may be an overreaction but I think I would move Cook ahead of Lynch at this point (for the Browns).
Comparing Goff and Wentz:
Goff has a quicker release
Wentz is bigger and has a stronger arm
Wentz had good footwork but Goff's was a little smoother
Goff seemed to throw with better anticipation - related to difference in arm strength?
Both seem to carry themselves well overall but neither came across as having that compelling personality. Last year, I see Mariota and think this is a dude I would like to chill out with a beer and just hang with. I look at Winston and don't like him. He seemed fake and insincere to me. I wouldn't have beers with him if he was paying for them. This year I look at both of these guys and get the same ambivalent feeling.
Both had good accuracy at the combine. Every throw I saw from Goff was perfect. I saw one bad throw from Wentz and one maybe throw (it was hard to see clearly). Obviously I didn't see every one of their throws.
Conclusion: I would be okay with either. I think the decision comes down to a couple things.
1, What all does Hue want his ideal Qb to be able to do physically and can both guys do it. I think Wentz can do pretty much anything you ask. I am not 100% certain Goff can. He might but I don't know. Hue should be able to tell rather easily.
2, How quick are they at making decisions? Goff has shown us exactly what his decision making skills are as compared to other Qb's who have come out in recent years. How quick of a decision maker is Wentz? I don't know. With his arm strength and the competition he played against he didn't need to be a quick decision maker to be successful. Vs that competition Weeden would look like a quick decision maker. This is not to say that Wentz is a slow decision maker. It raises the question of how quick/slow he is. It isn't as clear cut a comparison with him. I think this will be more difficult for Hue to figure out.
I don't know which of the 2 I would pick. I will put my trust in Hue and completely back whomever he decides is the best fit for his offense. These are my own personal observations. I think I did a pretty good job of staying unbiased because I don't have a favorite dog in this show.
Jester, I like your evaluation here; however, watching the video with Wentz and Goff on the whiteboard, I thought that Wentz was able to process and regurgitate the information better than Goff. Hell just getting the name of the play down would have stopped me. I would have been like "coach, can you tell me the name of that play again, um coach still didn't get it, thanks" Wentz not only got the name but all the nuances of the play even getting a little spunky when coach started interrupting him. Goff on the other hand seemed a little shaky. Now I understand that it was a dismally small sample, but it is all I have to go by.
well the only one I was guilty of was RG3...and I still maintain he would have been great if not for the fact he became damaged goods from the end of his rookie season. Never the same. Physically and Mentally.. jmho
I did ignore posters who were promoting Big Ben..he was small school and I PRESUMED it was just local guys promoting the local kid...I didn't even check him out.
But to this day I say that was the biggest drafting error of this 99-present Browns....smh
I wanted us to draft Big Ben big time! I like the idea of a QB with size and a big arm. That being said I thought Mettenberger was a steal as well. The jury is still out on that one I guess.
I think that it's the sort of decision that cannot be formulated in a vacuum. You have to take a look at QB's available in free agency and how you feel those QB's stack up against what you feel the guys in the draft can get you.
Then, as far as where you pick those guys, it comes down to where you need to take them to ensure that you get who you've targetted combined with factoring in the importance of the position - do we gain more by improving the QB position than say something on defense?
IF you think that a guy like Wentz is the best QB available for us, and IF you think he will be a step up from the guys we have, then you just have to look at that 1st rounder as the price for getting that player - no different than paying extra to attract a free agent.
You absolutely need to look at the whole picture, and you absolutely do not take a QB just because you need/want a QB - but if your research on the players shows that one of those QB's could be legitimate, then you really do have to take the guy at #2 because that's just the price of going for a QB.
You did like Rodgers a lot. That was a good call. I liked him, too. However, after his terrible bowl performance and some of the things that were reported AFTER the season, I switched to Smith. Man, that was dumb on my part.
I did pimp Big Ben, though. Not sure if most thought we needed a qb that year.
I think u can trade down and still get Goff or Wentz. Both guys are gonna drop unless we pull the trigger on one early.
You trade back only if you don't think any of the two is worth pursuing lets say you trade back to 7 thinking to get your franchise qb n your guy gets taken at 4 we would make one the biggest blunders.
You fall in love with a QB...and you don't take one at #2 if you don't fall in love with them...you don't take a chance on being cute and dropping back. My only fear is that as more and more study Wentz there will be teams trying to move up to #1 to get him. jmho
Take a look at the names on that list. All hyped guys. Many duds. Not sure how that isn't obvious.
I completely agree with your message. Reaching for a bad QB is the worst thing a team can do I believe (see Weeden, Ponder, and Gabbert as the posterboys)
The truth is, there are very few super bowl winning QBs. On the other hand, three of the four starting QBs in the championship games this year were number one overall picks, and the other one has won how many of the super bowls of the last 15 years?
I know probably I would be guilty also we like a guy and then we tend to exaggerate on their success.
That's not a fair criticism. I am not pimping either Qb I have no preference
I stated every throw I saw I qualified that I didn't see all the throws
Perhaps you saw some throws that I didn't Perhaps you are remembering throws from someone else and attribute them to Goff
Regardless, I offered up my observations and you are trying to belittle them by making it seem I am biased. That is not the case. If you saw some throws I didn't fine. If you saw the same throws and don't agree with my assessment then fine. But don't try to discredit my opinion by accusing me of bias. Perhaps you are seeing things different because you want Wentz???
We talk a lot about which QB to take at #2. We talk some about any available free agent Qb. We have talked very little lately about trade for a Qb options.
Now that Brady signed a 2 year contract extension, does that put Garoppolo back in play? Will the Patriots look to flip him for a draft pick then draft another developmental Qb?
Would you trade pick #32 for Jimmy G straight up? If yes, would you up that to #32 and our 4th this year if need be? If yes, would you give #32 and next year's 2nd round pick?
If we are going to give up significant compensation for a totally unproven QB, then I would rather draft a QB at pick #2 and have his rookie contract for four years.
Interesting answers guys. I truly expected more Jimmy G love out there.
I see #32 as the appropriate price for Jimmy G. I think the Pats will want more. Specifically I think they will want two 2nd rounders. I don't know what they would get for him. What was the trade value for Mallett?
I would trade #32 straight up for him. He has some NFL seasoning yet still 2? years left on his rookie contract? Plus I think he is an equivalent prospect to Wentz and Goff but with 2 Patriots training camps under his belt.
Perhaps you are remembering throws from someone else and attribute them to Goff
It was right there I think crfs provided the links one for Wentz one for Goff. I watched the Goff one and after I questioned your "PERFECT" I described from that video the throws that weren't perfect right there on this thread. And it was a small sample less then 10 throws?
Instead of going to that video and have a disagreement of what I saw, right away I'm wrong, must of been somebody else.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were a Goff guy and bias was the reason of your claim. Sorry, I think you are a good poster but heck I saw like 10 throws and 2 were bad...sort of cuts into that claim of "PERFECT"
Just the facts of what I saw, if I am wrong please show my errors - my descriptions would be obvious to what pass I was talking about.
LOL.............I see at least considering the list of first round qbs I presented isn't working. Why let facts get in the way of an agenda?
Sorry I didn't see any relevance to the list as none are in this draft. Its a tough position to evaluate, yes I agree that is a fact but it doesn't mean a Wentz is one of those failures. It does prove that there is no sure thing. Heck not even Luck...oh he has all the skills but he's been taking a beating. I thought last season he looked worse than his rookie season. The beating takes its toll.
We are at two and we should have first choice at QB...we have good QB experience in our staff. If they see what you see, they won't take a QB at #2. If they see what I see they will take Wentz at #2 and only Wentz.
I get your opinion, I'm sure you get my opinion. I don't take it personal and I hope you don't take my opinion personal. I don't think either carries more weight than the other. Its just my pick not yours we are talking about.
You see something in that...obviously not many...what are you trying to say...NEVER PICK A QB...unless we are the overall #1 pick and a stud is there.
In your mind you have a point. But for some reason you think it should be THE POINT AND FINAL POINT. Tell me which of those QBs is Wentz. I see Wentz as being better than Tannehill.
You probably will tell me Gabbert? Not Bortles? Odd several comparison I see is with LUCK..of course they put disclaimers in there lol
Most people read what you wrote. You felt insulted nobody was acclaiming it as "well thats it I guess" - I responded and didn't do so to insult or hurt your feelings.
Then you came back with a SPIRITBRO response. We should learn from the past...just what is it that we should learn? How does that apply to Wentz?
btw I made a response with numbers comparing the overall# 2 picks on that list. None of which were the First QB taken.
Hey got news for you. for me this is a best scenario for us to pick a Franchise QB....we will not be in the top 5 let alone #1 or #2 spots to take THE QB of the draft.
What I have learned from history its very hard to have a big hit from the first round when its the 2nd, 3r, or 4th QB being taken. There are exceptions. big Ben, Rodgers but not many.
This is a rare occasion that to me a real live Franchise QB prospect can be available to us. To compare him to a Ponder or other failures just is not accurate.
Just like we could have taken other players besides Joe Thomas it would have been a mistake cause LT is that important. To me QB is the most important. Learn from the past - yeah don't pass on your Big Bens! That is what Ive learned.
Again all said and done..you and I don't count in this
I think it's pretty clear that Vers' point is that just because people talk up QB prospects to be first round or top 5 players doesn't mean there is a better than 50/50 shot that they will be good.
Is there any dispute that quarterback is the most impactful position in football? If there is check the salary structure by position.
Is there risk of failure in drafting any position high in the draft? Check WR, DL, OL, LB or any position. Failures can happen at any position.
When I see "arguments" about drafting a player like JJ. Watt and Super Bowls, or top WR and Super Bowls, or any argument along those lines it proves only one thing: football is a team game. Great teams win Super Bowls.
Do the Browns have a need at quarterback? If you believe that a quarterback on the roster is an answer then you are in the minority. Hue Jackson has already said they intend to explore all avenues in search of a quarterback.
So now the question that must be asked is; is there a quarterback in this draft worth the second pick?
Most of the people in the media believe that Goff or Wentz are the two best quarterbacks in the draft. Most list Goff and Wentz in the top 15 players of all positions of the draft.
If a quarterback is actually one of the top ten players in the draft is it wrong to take him at slot #2 if he was say the tenth best player?
Well maybe that depends on how accurate the rankings really are. At the end of each draft year and then the regular season how do the rankings actually hold up?
In conclusion, what matters here is the Browns are going to get a quarterback. Will the Browns be right in their analysis? I think they will be right if they select Carson Wentz.
LOL.............I see at least considering the list of first round qbs I presented isn't working. Why let facts get in the way of an agenda?
So no team should ever draft a QB in the top two?
Are you guys deliberately twisting my words around?
Did you read my OP on this topic? If so, how in the heck could you come to that conclusion?
How many #2 overall picks who are defensive ends win the Super Bowl?
How many DE's have been drafted #2 overall in the last 30 years? 3
2008 Chris Long 2002 Julius Peppers 1988 Neil Smith
Of those 3, Peppers and Smith both went to the Super Bowl.
Smith's team won the Superbowl twice.
So based off of highly accurate infallible analytical statistics...
If you draft a DE at #2 you have at worst a 66.6% chance of going to the Super Bowl and you have a 33.3% chance of winning multiple Super Bowls.
I say at worst because Peppers and Long are still playing and it could be a 100% chance of winning multiple Super Bowls simply by drafting DE's.
The safest conclusion I can come to is that we should draft anyone named Neil Smith at #2 because then we would have a 100% chance of winning multiple Super Bowls.
If you're going to limit your draftable players because the players at that position haven't won a Super Bowl in the past, then you are not going to pick the player is best for your team.
Versatile Dog is adamantly against drafting a QB at pick #2. One of his reasons is that QBs picked at #2 haven't won many Super Bowls. That fact has no predictive value over future QBs that are selected at pick #2.
Edit: I am totally fine with someone not liking/wanting to draft Goff or Wentz. This specific reason for not wanting to draft one of them is ludicrous.
If you're going to limit your draftable players because the players at that position haven't won a Super Bowl in the past, then you are not going to pick the player is best for your team.
Versatile Dog is adamantly against drafting a QB at pick #2. One of his reasons is that QBs picked at #2 haven't won many Super Bowls. That fact has no predictive value over future QBs that are selected at pick #2.
I think it's pretty clear that Vers' point is that just because people talk up QB prospects to be first round or top 5 players doesn't mean there is a better than 50/50 shot that they will be good.
Maybe to say the same thing in a different way is that if the QB class is not very good the fact that one QB is rated as the best of that bunch doesn't automatically make him worthy of a top 5 pick.
LOL.............I see at least considering the list of first round qbs I presented isn't working. Why let facts get in the way of an agenda?
So no team should ever draft a QB in the top two?
Are you guys deliberately twisting my words around?
Did you read my OP on this topic? If so, how in the heck could you come to that conclusion?
How many #2 overall picks who are defensive ends win the Super Bowl?
I thought you were trying to bait someone into saying Von Miller, since he played significant DE for Denver when he was drafted and they were running a 4-3, but I didn't understand why.
This specific reason for not wanting to draft one of them is ludicrous.
And this is why you are a poor poster. I never made any such claim. You put words into my mouth simply to deflect attention away from the topic and use ridiculous words like "ludicrous."
My thinking on this is multi-faceted and it is far from ludicrous. I have tried to spell it out for you and the other guys who insist we have to take a qb this year, but you don't wanna hear it, so you make things up to discredit my opinions.
no doubt we need a QB but no and I mean NO QB in this draft is worthy of a top ten selection...barely first round talent as far as I can tell. but that's just my opinion..."imo" Best play available is the road i would travel this year and grab a QB when the value is there for one.
Perhaps you are remembering throws from someone else and attribute them to Goff
It was right there I think crfs provided the links one for Wentz one for Goff. I watched the Goff one and after I questioned your "PERFECT" I described from that video the throws that weren't perfect right there on this thread. And it was a small sample less then 10 throws?
Instead of going to that video and have a disagreement of what I saw, right away I'm wrong, must of been somebody else.
I was giving you the benefit of the doubt that you were a Goff guy and bias was the reason of your claim. Sorry, I think you are a good poster but heck I saw like 10 throws and 2 were bad...sort of cuts into that claim of "PERFECT"
Just the facts of what I saw, if I am wrong please show my errors - my descriptions would be obvious to what pass I was talking about.
I didn't look at those links. My review was from what I saw on NFLN's coverage of the combine. I didn't even know those links were out there and I look forward to reviewing them when I get the chance. Likely next week if I can find those link in the middle of a massive thread that far after after they were posted.
I stated "all the throws I saw" and qualified by saying that I didn't see all his throws. If you or anyoneelse says there are throws he made at the combine that weren't perfect I wouldn't argue that. I would argue that I didn't see those throws.
The "may have been someone else" comment I made was based on your comment of "this is going on memory" that you posted 3/2/16 at 9:32 - Not sure how to post that link for you.
I never really bought into this using a radar gun on football throws but found this interesting that Lynch, Goff and Wentz were so close. Subjectively, I would have thought Lynch was by fat the strongest arm and Goff by ar the slowest of those 3 with Cook above Goff but below WEntz.
Michigan State's Connor Cook registered a velocity measurement of just 50 miles per hour on the radar gun at the NFL Combine.
Paxton Lynch (59 MPH), Jared Goff (58), and Carson Wentz (57) all exhibited strong velocity at the Combine. Per Rotoviz's Jon Moore via Ourlads' Dan Shonka, Cook's miles-per-hour measurement was the weakest of all quarterbacks invited to Indianapolis. Cook also opted out of the Senior Bowl, which is where NFL scouts assess throwing strength live. A big-named passer in college, Cook is likely headed for a draft-day plunge. And there are several additional red flags on Cook not related to his underwhelming passing ability.
Just a note. Wentz and Cook are nursing their arms from recovering injuries.
Wentz - who came back too soon from a wrist injury to participate in the Championship game.
Cook - who was playing injured the last few weeks of the season. Recovering from a Shoulder injury.
Just to put that in perspective.
Oh and the videos that I believe cfrs provided on those throws are a real short video...as mentioned around 10 throws each. And looked like it was done from somebodies Phone...
On the Highlights film from the combine, didn't see it but wondering if it in anyway was edited???
When it comes to analysis of the quarterback position one guy that I place in high esteem is Ron Jaworski.
Not only did he play the position but when his playing days ended he studied the position.
Here is a quote on what he thinks about Wentz:
As far as the draft goes, Jaworski seems to be highest on Carson Wentz of North Dakota State as a top quarterback.
"He got hurt, so he only threw 216 balls this year," Jaworski said. "Not a great sampling for his last year of [college] football. But man, the kid's got talent, the kid's got talent."
LOL..............Jaws has been terrible when it comes to evaluating QBs. Who can forget this brilliant analysis and prediction?
Quote:
For the Cleveland Browns to take the next step, quarterback Brandon Weeden must improve on his uneven rookie campaign from a season ago. ESPN's Ron Jaworski believes that's about to happen.
Jaws, cycling through his annual quarterback rankings, watched every one of Weeden's throws from 2012 and came away impressed, going so far as to say the 29-year-old passer "will be a rock-solid NFL starter in Norv Turner's offense," per Evan Silva of Rotoworld.
"For a rookie, Weeden showed uncommon poise and calm in the pocket," said Jaworski, who called Weeden's mechanics "consistently solid" and touted the quarterback's ability to "sit on his back foot and drive the ball with velocity."
It's a surprising assessment. On the surface, Weeden's rookie season was a hot-and-cold affair that showed off his strong arm but exposed his poor decision-making. Jaws has been closely analyzing signal-callers for decades, so his stamp of approval is encouraging for Weeden.
Moving from Pat Shurmur's paint-by-numbers West Coast offense to Turner's aggressive downfield passing attack should help. Weeden is more of a gunslinger-type passer, and new Browns coach Rob Chudzinski has promised to make the most of his quarterback's deep-ball ability. Any one of Weeden's games from last season reveals plenty of negatives to go along with the positives, but Jaws -- along with NFL.com's Bucky Brooks -- believes Weeden will flip the switch in his second NFL season.
It was two years ago, I said Colin Kaepernick had the skillset to become one of the greatest quarterbacks ever. I watched him against Dallas in week one 2014 and I saw consecutive plays with traits I really like. Pocket movement and the ability to deliver accurately knowing he’s going to get hit. How about maintaining his balance and poise and his downfield focus moving out of the pocket? These are high-level attributes.
LOL.............I see at least considering the list of first round qbs I presented isn't working. Why let facts get in the way of an agenda?
So no team should ever draft a QB in the top two?
Are you guys deliberately twisting my words around?
Did you read my OP on this topic? If so, how in the heck could you come to that conclusion?
How many #2 overall picks who are defensive ends win the Super Bowl?
How many DE's have been drafted #2 overall in the last 30 years? 3
2008 Chris Long 2002 Julius Peppers 1988 Neil Smith
Of those 3, Peppers and Smith both went to the Super Bowl.
Smith's team won the Superbowl twice.
So based off of highly accurate infallible analytical statistics...
If you draft a DE at #2 you have at worst a 66.6% chance of going to the Super Bowl and you have a 33.3% chance of winning multiple Super Bowls.
I say at worst because Peppers and Long are still playing and it could be a 100% chance of winning multiple Super Bowls simply by drafting DE's.
The safest conclusion I can come to is that we should draft anyone named Neil Smith at #2 because then we would have a 100% chance of winning multiple Super Bowls.
And Deputy drops the mic and walks off stage with that one.
I remember Jaws assessment of Kapernick being one of the greatest QBs of all time, I laughed. How can you say such a thing with such a small sample to go from.
I remember Jaws assessment of Kapernick being one of the greatest QBs of all time, I laughed. How can you say such a thing with such a small sample to go from.
Because you are on ESPN and you have to make outrageous statements to get any real air time.
Cardale Jones' strained hamstring didn't just cost him an opportunity to throw at the NFL scouting combine.
It cost him an opportunity to make people sit up and take notice.
Not that folks hadn't seen Jones before, but watching up close and personal would have been something else. Jones' size, arm strength, speed and raw ability would combine the pieces of every quarterback designed by an NFL personnel guy.
But his performance and inexperience make him a risk.
Jones has the 2014 experience after starting three games and leading Ohio State to a national title. Then he has 2015, when he was given the job to start the season and lost it. Even with that roller coaster, he left Ohio State 11-0 as a starter.
Had he come out for the draft after '14, it's possible he could have been a second-round pick.
Now?( He's been working with quarterback guru George Whitfield in San Diego to try and improve his fundamentals. But according to ESPN's Mel Kiper, he's also looking at being selected in the fourth or fifth round, especially since he didn't throw at the combine due to the hamstring.
Jones' focus turns to his pro day at Ohio State on March 11.
But Jones doesn't even think throwing will matter that much. If teams have studied him, they know his arm.
"I’m really looking forward to the running part of it, the 40 and the vertical," he said at his combine workout before the hamstring injury. "I mean, dropping back and throwing the ball to guys in shorts and shirts, I don’t think that’s going to ‘wow’ many people when I don’t have any pressure, [and] I don’t have to avoid anything."
Jones has so many positives in terms of size and arm strength so he can't be ignored in this draft. At 6-5 and 250 pounds, he has a cannon for an arm and isn't afraid to run over people.
He also has a refreshingly honest approach to his game.
Asked at the combine if he's NFL ready, he said: "Only time will tell."
Asked about his final season at Ohio State, he said: "It was a disappointment for the personal goals and things I wanted to accomplish. But everything that happened was for the betterment of the team."
Even when he turned down the NFL after winning the national title, Jones shrugged and said there really was no reason to leave, given he had played so little up to that point.
Jones attributed his 2015 struggles -- when he threw five interceptions in five games -- to inexperience. He had just three starts and less than 200 snaps in his career going into the season. He took unnecessary chances, and in some cases, he forced some throws into coverage.
However, Jones insists that he has a greater understanding of the game than he's been given credit for.
"I don’t think I get a lot of credit for how cerebral I am when it comes to being the quarterback," he said.
He said people may think of him as a goofball given his personality, but he added that they don't see the hours he puts in to prepare for games. He even said he was eager to shock teams in his interviews.
"I don’t get a lot of credit for my knowledge of the game. I don’t think OSU gets a lot of credit for the things and the responsibilities they put on a quarterback," he said.
Jones' Twitter account (@CJ12_) is an interesting mix of inspiration and self-promotion. His statement by his handle states "Nothing Worth Having Comes Easy." On Thursday, he posted that "Everyday you get better or worse, you don't stay the same."
He has several photos with fans at a charity event, and a slow motion replay of his 36" vertical (pre-hamstring) leap at the combine. He also re-tweeted a post from NFL.com's Daniel Jeremiah, who wrote that when you watch Jones throw, "he's elite."
What, then, to do with Jones?
Does a team focus on the ability and take him in the second round?
Is he better off in spot where he can learn and grow behind an established starter (say, Dallas)?
Or does the lack of production in 2015 push him down to the third day?
Some call Jones the forgotten quarterback in the draft.
Except for this: Ability like his is hard to forget, or ignore.
"I don't want a job," Jones said. "I want a career."
Browns chances: Low in the early rounds, high in the fourth or fifth. The Browns can't afford to take a chance on a project with their first three picks. But if Jones is on the board in the fourth, fifth or sixth round, it would make sense for the Browns to take him. It doesn't matter if he's the second quarterback they draft. It would be a smart move.
Browns main question: Same as it is for every team: Is Jones a lesser version of Cam Newton, or is he the next Jamarcus Russell?
I dont know why I like him so much...maybe I am too much of a Buckeye guy. but if he is still around in the fourth or fifth round I want this kid...and why not if our #2 QB does not work out we have another option. But I am pulling for him
Man I am sure glad that we have so many experts on this board who's football resume's can match Jaworski's. In addition to matching his number of hours of film study.
When I need expertise I will just go to this Board because I know we all have never been wrong in player evaluation.
Well the fact that I know is that QBs are the hardest positions to evaluate...that is a fact. Whether you are Jaws, Bonefish or Vers...there will be a lot of evaluations that will be wrong.
What I do know is making the roster long term there are the Rare parity breakers. QB, LT, Pass Rusher elite, Cover Corner...just not enough for everyone. Anytime we get a chance to get an opportunity at a parity breaker we should take it. Doesn't all have to be this year.
Another thing I know to have a Franchise QB you should have an OL that can prevent said QB from becoming damaged goods.
Another is that Defenses DO WIN CHAMPIONSHIPS I don't care what the pundits state that it has changed...sorry not what I see.
Hue and crew will make their best evaluation at the QB they won't reach for one because of need.
Of course if we do not go QB in the first round more than possible is the chances we obtain RG3 for the short term along with McCown. Davis and Shaw are irrelevant - I have yet studied "REPORTS" I'm not a lawyer making a case and have to bring up Johnny A vs Johnny B to prove that my view is correct.
I eyeball each one. I don't look at accomplishments as much as how they made their accomplishments. Sometimes you have to study hard...if you are lucky you watch and you just know you are looking at greatness. Then you keep watching and get support of that greatness. Only reason why I'm pimping Wentz...if I didn't feel that way I wouldn't have.
Its the biggest of the Parity Breakers. But it doesn't mean you ignore the others. To me and this 2016 Draft its about QB and the DEFENSE...we will not fix it all this year. But as a fan those are my keys.
Hackenberg has arm talent. In his freshman year under O'Brian he played well.
He got worse from there though. Hard to tell if he got shell shocked from all the sacks. Even when he had time his accuracy was not good.
At the same time you wonder what will happen with good instruction and time. He has a really good arm and seems like a guy who will work.
I suspect he will go to the Texans in the 3rd. O'Brien's history with him probably helps him recover to reclaim his promise. There is a security of familiarity that no other coach can match. I think that is his best chance.
Hue and crew will make their best evaluation at the QB they won't reach for one because of need.
You made a good post, but we really don't know what they will do. This is the first go-around for these guys. One can't say w/any sense of objectivity if they will do a good job or a bad job. I worry that their inexperience will lead them to reaching for a qb that really isn't all that.
We also know that it isn't Hue and his crew. Rather, it's Sashi and his crew, which Hue is a part of.
No you posted the evaluations you wanted for your agenda. You did not post all his evaluations. Like what he stated about Manziel or the ones he was right about.
And what did you post? One about Wentz, right? What were you trying to do? Be objective? LOL.........and then you get your little panties in a wad because I questioned his evaluations and posted a couple of them.
Did you want me to post every evaluation he has ever made? On one post? Really?
Wow, he had Peyton Manning third overall and Cam was number 18. Wanna see what he had to say about Cam?
Quote:
No. 18 on my big board is Cam Newton. The Panthers ran the most college-based offense in the NFL last season. They featured multiple option elements and quarterback power. All to take advantage of Newton’s imposing size and athletic running ability. Presenting Newton as a viable runner forced defenses to account for him and created one-on-one matchups on the outside for his wide receivers. It made sense. Newton is not a precision passer and those one-on-one matchups define the reads and the throws. Newton has at times shown the ability to make outstanding throws from the pocket. Against the Seahawks in the playoffs, he made a seam throw to Greg Olsen that was as good as it gets. Newton had to beat the best free safety in the game – Earl Thomas. And he did with velocity and precise ball location. But Newton has far too many inconsistencies as a passer. What really bothers me is a lack of attention to the little details. Here, he had Jerricho Cotchery wide open down the seam with no deep safety. This is an easy touchdown in the NFL. You can’t miss these when your receiver is running free in the middle of the field. But it wasn’t a touchdown. And it was on Newton. You can see why clearly from the end zone angle. Newton never set his feet in the pocket. He threw this ball on one leg falling away, getting nothing on the throw. This play is symptomatic of Newton. He’s a big, raw, physical specimen, but not very advanced in the subtleties of NFL quarterback play.
I think some of the things he says are whacked. Bet you would too if he would have dissed Wentz. LOL
Going Shopping for quarterbacks to me is more than just shopping at the Draft. I'm going shopping at the Free Agent and team quality backup market first. Here's Why;
There are free agents, like Osweiler, who may fit as our starting quarterback and the Browns have the money to challenge the Bronco's to a duel. Then again, there's this backup down in Cincinnati, who our Head Coach has been tutoring for 2 years, in his system no less, and has a pretty respectable quarterback record with 7 games and 3 starts. AJ Mc Stats
Yes, my money is on the Browns going after AJ McCarron for our "Franchise" quarterback.
I know your saying "wait, he isn't an UFA or RFA! True, however I think this front office is more willing to conduct a trade with Cincinnati for him even though most think it is taboo to do so. This QB was expected to go no later than the back of the 1st or top of the second round in 2014 by most draft experts. Now he has 2 years in the AFC North, played against all three Divisional rivals, And will know the coaches playbook by heart day 1.
Not only is that a possibility, with all the UFA's from the Bengals offense that will be available we have a shot at loading up on some of the excess starting caliber, if not elite, players on both Offense and Defense if they want to come play with their former Offensive Coordinator.
Think about it, if we can get; Sanu and/or Jones at WR, Winston or Smith at RT, Iloka at SS, Lamur or Rey at OLB, Nelson at FS, we can stop worrying about anything but best available when it comes to the draft.
The Browns have plenty of cap space to go hard after some of these free agents (approximately 42.368 million) without over spending. Then, either before or at the Draft, work out a trade for McCarron.
Now we need to look at possible trade value; Since the Bengals managed to get a late first early second talent at the 22nd overall pick in the fifth round (164) of the 2014 draft, I would consider making my first trade option be the Browns 1st 4th round pick (100) and the Browns 1st compensatory pick in the 5th round (pick 171).
I think that can be a very fair price for a young veteran Quarterback which, will allow the Browns to go after a developmental quarterback without over paying for him, say Cardale Jones with our projected 1st compensatory pick in the late 4th, or with one of the two remaining picks in the 5th round.
Now the Browns can focus entirely on BPA throughout the draft and not be so overly concerned about "need" as they would have addressed all of the most dire needs even if some of our key free agents do walk. Areas addressed; QB, WR, RT, OLB, and Safety.
I know this is rather long and drawn out, but I wanted to give you more than just "why not McCarron".
I'm just an old lone wolf sharin' my thoughts on our favorite team.
I look forward to your comments whether they be positive or negative.
That's a very good post. I like how you supported your argument. Well done.
I wish I could agree w/you because you did such a good job of presenting your case, but AJ McCarron was one of the guys I studied a few years ago.
Here are my main concerns:
--I do not think he has the arm to throw the deep out effectively. He has to put too much air under it. That is a throw you want to drive because of the deep safety being in the area.
--He is not very mobile for a guy w/a minus arm.
--He throws some really dumb passes. Forces it the deep pass sometimes. I would just ask...."Why?"
But hey, you brought up good points and I have been wrong before. Anyway, I enjoyed reading your post.
I can not argue your points as I don't have the time to conduct the deep assessments of players that some do. If this were to pass, the person most likely to be able to make that decision, is the man who has been coaching him for the last two years. At least he will know whether or not he is worth what is paid "if" the front office shops for him. If he isn't worth the cost, I'm sure the coach will do well with his other options. I just do not have that warm and fuzzy feeling of a true #1 QB in this draft worthy of a #2 pick overall, but that is simply opinion at best. Most QB's like this need time that the fan base and organization are to "win now" oriented to allow the young QB to grow to his full potential.
Coming out of bama, i wasn't very high on AJ but watching him this year, he grew on me. And if Hue wants to bring him in, well that's all I need to know.
Here is my issue. You are only looking at this from the browns standpoint. If I am the bengals, why would I give the browns a fair deal to solve their qb problems?
If I'm the bengals and you make the offer you proposed as fair, im coming back with, you csn have aj for #32 and your 2nd round pick in 2017. In this negotiation the bengals have the power. They neither have to nor want to trade aj.
I concur on the fact that the Bengals will likely put up a strong negotiation. However, neither office really has the upper hand. The Browns hold the number 2 and 32 pick regardless. So they can take a QB (Goff, Wentz, or Lynch)even though I believe it would be overpaying at 2 for either Goff or Wentz. Lynch at 32 is likely the best "fair value" QB. The thing I see with Cincinnati is that they are not likely to be desperate to keep a 2nd "starting caliber" QB when they can trade him for a higher value and draft another high level, developmental, backup with the higher of the picks.
It is a matter of finding a good compromise. My starting value of my 1st 4th RD pick and 2nd 5th RD pick is simply my perceived starting value point as to not insult the Bengals negotiators. Lowballing an offer, will only make it harder for the Browns front office to haggle an acceptable trade.
I'm confident that when it comes to the negotiations, between Hue's knowledge of the player as well as Brown and DePodesta's, supposed, ability to achieve success in acquiring the best bang for the buck in dealings like this.
While I enjoyed the post and like the thinking, there is a flaw. This year compensatory picks can not be traded. I heard somewhere they will be next year, but not this.
Hue and crew will make their best evaluation at the QB they won't reach for one because of need.
You made a good post, but we really don't know what they will do. This is the first go-around for these guys. One can't say w/any sense of objectivity if they will do a good job or a bad job. I worry that their inexperience will lead them to reaching for a qb that really isn't all that.
We also know that it isn't Hue and his crew. Rather, it's Sashi and his crew, which Hue is a part of.
True we don't really know anything for sure. But HUE was given a lot of power in all of this - I think its safe to say QB is definitely his decision. That Sashi will agree to. Sashi was given power to make all cohesive...I truly doubt the first pick and QB he would go against HUE and start the regime off with a rift.
Again if we take QB it will be because Hue and his staff are in agreement this is OUR GUY. Educated guess not fact.
Hue isn't inexperienced...Al Saunders is not inexperienced...they will know what they are doing. I think you are envisioning Sashi with a lot more power in the process.
I think you are envisioning Sashi with a lot more power in the process.
I am envisioning it because that is what we have been told. Right after the last time we had this discussion, Sashi came right out and reiterated that he is the lead guy in all of this and Hue will be a part of it.
I don't have to speculate. It's been stated by the guys involved.
Brown's Wolf...I understand what you are saying. Short term possibly an option.
Franchise QB??? I don't know about that. Taking somebodies is what we have always done. I'm tired of the 2nd tier QBs we try to rejuvenate old veterans or trade for a DA.
I would doubt a Division Rival will trade us our Franchise QB...they will only do so knowing the ceiling is just so high. In most cases we get fleeced. DA was one of the few trades where we won.
Trust me I'm not saying you shouldn't have your opinion. I just want a chance of a Couch pick and we got pieces here. No, I'm not saying Couch was great I'm just saying he was the 1st overall pick and our choice...since then its been 22, 22 and again 22. I'm tired of the Back ups...Holcomb, Hoyer, McCown, etc. jmho
Probably so...I had 6th rounder in my head probably what they used to pick him not us to trade for him...lol thanks for the correction.
The last 3 #22 overall picks its "USUALLY" the QBs who have moved up due to the value of QB in the draft but odds of being a franchise QB as if we took them 3rd round.
Couch...had some skills the porous OL just made it impossible to develop him and see what kind of prospect he was.
I completely agree about not continuing to do the same thing the Browns front office did in the past. I would not even entertain this idea in the first place without having the following as my basis for the theory;
As you already know, in 2014 the Bengals gave Andy Dalton an extended contract which, just happened to include a clause that allowed them to cancel the contract completely at the end of the 2015 season if he did not meet team expectations. With that, Cincinnati in turn, grabs McCarron; a consensus 1st or, no later than top, 2nd round talent in the 5th round of the 2014 Draft.
I live in Chillicothe where there is a pretty fair mix of three out of the four AFC North teams fans. Luckily we are pretty good about not becoming to confrontational about each others teams and actually enjoy some good humored ribbing. More often than not though, we like to delve into the more in-depth discussions about each others team dealings.
When that Draft was concluded, every Bengals fan I spoke to raved about how the Cincinnati front office hit the jackpot on a top tier replacement for Dalton if he whiffs on the playoffs again (And of course how the Browns did whiff again on their QB). I concurred as I didn't expect Dalton to survive and that would give the Bengals a solid starting veteran in their system (And we picked the most flashy non-football QB ever before he became Johnny Rehab).
Now with, what I can only presume is, one of the key selectees of that quarterback as our head coach (not to mention a quarterbacks coach and offensive coordinator that has trained this quarterback for 2 years), I would expect Hue to have a pretty solid idea of whether or not McCarron is a true franchise QB or not. I would also expect that he would be wise enough to not even consider this scenario if knows McCarron isn't and Draft the QB he believes is the best candidate to become that Franchise QB to turn the Browns around.
As for the Bengals refusing to make the trade, that's the business side and anything is possible there. I would think that Hue has pretty good relationships with the Bengals Owners and, with DePodesta and Brown likely controlling the management of the negotiations, would be able broker a fair and equitable compensation between the two teams.
In the end, everything here is purely speculation on my part with what little insight I have from the same media outlets everyone else gets their news from. I simply thought it would be an entertaining discussion to consider beyond the tired old boring Draft this QB "NO" draft that QB argument.
Thanks for the conversation everyone. I look forward to reading your posts and will likely bring up some discussion again around draft time. Especially if I just happen to turn out to be right.
I miss read the information, the 2016 compensatory picks, which are awarded in the 2017 draft, will be tradable. Thanks for the heads up. That will definitely make it more challenging for my scenario to be realized.
Let's just sign RG3 and roll with him. It'd be some nice poetic justice if we got him for pennies on the dollar after we failed to give up the farm for him a few years ago. Maybe he's been humbled, but the guy showed his rookie year he's got the arm. He may not have the head or legs, though.
Or we lets go after Fitzpatrick. I like his beard.
Solid post. Liked the detail, and it makes sense as a coherent scenarios option. Lots to consider there. Especially like how the parts are going to influence and perhaps outweigh each other. The Sanu thing is really interesting and seems in reach. But what a remarkably different team might shake out of all of this.
This week should be informative if not encouraging as it shapes our draft needs.
Let's just sign RG3 and roll with him. It'd be some nice poetic justice if we got him for pennies on the dollar after we failed to give up the farm for him a few years ago. Maybe he's been humbled, but the guy showed his rookie year he's got the arm. He may not have the head or legs, though.
Or we lets go after Fitzpatrick. I like his beard.
His exit from Washington (letter left in locker) shows IMO that he has been anything but humbled.
lol 
Like somebody jumping to #1 to take Wentz...there is no either or. Our guys (Hue is going to fall in love with one QB...not going to take 2nd place just because)
Wentz not only got the name but all the nuances of the play even getting a little spunky when coach started interrupting him. Goff on the other hand seemed a little shaky. Now I understand that it was a dismally small sample, but it is all I have to go by. 