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For what it is worth.....

Despite OK game, Johnny Manziel is Browns’ best option
Sam Monson explains why Johnny Manziel earned a negative grade versus the Titans -- and why he's still the Browns' best QB option.

Browns QB Johnny Manziel ended the game against Tennessee the victor of the latest Heisman Bowl, defeating Titans rookie QB Marcus Mariota and finishing with a spectacular looking passer rating of 133.9 thanks to two touchdown passes and no interceptions.

That box score looks fantastic, but his PFF grade was -2.9, almost all of which came as a passer (as opposed to rushing). But those negatives are hidden deeper in his play, either from the box score, or disguised as fumbles.

Manziel lost the football twice when being sacked, risking a potential turnover that was averted on both occasions by the quick reactions of his teammates. Having the ball knocked out in a strip-sack you never saw coming is one thing, but allowing it to come out when you know the pressure is there and contact is imminent is poor ball security that will punish a team over the long term.

Though he only missed on a few throws in the game, there was one big poor decision that he was fortunate to avoid being punished for, throwing an ill-advised pass down field into double coverage only to see it dropped by Titans cornerback Perrish Cox. Throwing a hopeful jump ball into double coverage is questionable at the best of times, throwing it to a 5-foot-7 wide receiver in the shape of Andrew Hawkins isn’t even giving the wide receiver a chance to bail you out of your bad decision.

Much like Mariota last week, Manziel didn’t play quite as well as the box score suggests, and had the ball bounced a different way on those plays the narrative would likely be a little different, but the key question for Cleveland fans is whether he is a better option than Josh McCown going forward.

The answer to that question undoubtedly has to be yes. But for an anomalous stretch of excellent play in Chicago, McCown’s career has been consistently negatively graded during the PFF era, assuming he was even playing. McCown is a quarterback who has been out of the NFL on a couple of occasions before being handed reprieves by a league so starved of quarterback talent it will take yet another shot on a passer proven to be below par simply because there are no better options. There were good reasons that McCown found himself without a team on more than one occasion, but his play for the Bears under Marc Trestman bought him another go-around of personnel guys trying to recapture that magic.

However, McCown is far more likely to play to his career baseline – below average, at best – than he is to reproduce that seven-game stretch of excellence from 2013. McCown can operate an offense, and even make some things happen with his legs, but he can’t make the plays that Manziel was making yesterday against the Titans. The two touchdown passes to Travis Benjamin in particular as well as a couple of other ad-libbed positive passes represent a ceiling that McCown just doesn’t have.

As the grade shows, Manziel definitely has the capacity to make bad plays, costing his team and negating much of the good, but this is about the Browns going forward, and Manziel clearly represents a far greater potential for this Cleveland offense.

It’s time for Johnny Football.

https://www.profootballfocus.com/blog/20...ns-best-option/

They had the luxury of tailoring the game for Manziel. The breaks went our way in the first half and then it was just a matter of finishing them. Manziel looked alright. I do think he'll benefit from a chance to go back to the sidelines and continue to build on the success he's had. He wasn't so great that it justifies yanking the starter because he got injured.

This season is going to be a week by week thing. And they're going to lose their fair share of games along the way. While a win over Tennessee was nice to see it's hardly a sign of things to come.

You know I said yesterday I think it would be unfortunate if Pett made the call to go back to McCown, but I am rethinking that. Manziel did what we were all hoping - show improvement. It probably wouldn't be a bad thing to take a seat again and continue to learn behind McCown. He's getting game experience and he gets a chance to reflect on the games he's played in.

I think it sometimes does someone wonders to take a step back from a situation.

I also think it does wonders to just get thrown into the fire and get the experience as well.

But I can see both sides to this.

John DeFilippo on Manziel’s final TD pass: Coaching is overrated
Posted by Josh Alper on September 21, 2015, 9:23 AM EDT

When Johnny Manziel was at Texas A&M, he regularly made the highlight reel as a result of plays that couldn’t be drawn up by any coach who was trying to convince his players that he knew what he was doing.

Manziel made another play like that in the fourth quarter of Sunday’s victory over the Titans. With the Browns up 21-14, Manziel avoided a rush from Brian Orakpo, spun, rolled to his left and then fired the ball back to his right where Travis Benjamin was open for his third touchdown of the day.

Coach Mike Pettine called it “vintage Manziel,” although we haven’t seen much of that from him at the professional level. Offensive coordinator John DeFilippo had a more self-referential take on the play.

“Certainly wasn’t the way the play was designed,” Pettine said, via Cleveland.com. “I think Flip had the best line of the day on the headset after he rolled out of it, ended up throwing backwards across the field, scored the touchdown. He just says real calmly while everybody was cheering, he said ‘coaching is overrated.’ They did a nice job, brought pressure. We didn’t pick it up. Johnny did a nice job getting out of it and finding Travis and making a play.”

Pettine said Sunday that he wasn’t getting into the question of who would start once Josh McCown gets cleared to return after a concussion, but Manziel’s outing, which featured a more traditional strike to Benjamin for another touchdown, will make the call more difficult for the Browns.

That's a backhanded compliment, isn't it? Underscores my take on the play. Coaches don't like surprises, not up by 7p late in the game. If Manziel produces a game changing TO there, he wouldn't have seen the field the rest of the season. Walking a fine line and a HC that is tightroping it himself to save his job can't like this too much.

How many times did the coaches tell Manziel to protect the ball better, live another down etc etc. Then he goes out, gets 17 pass plays and he's still the same damn player not doing what was asked. Imagine you're the coach. How much do you trust him to ever change?

J/C .....

I did hear a few people say that Manziel really didn't do that much in the game, and to an extent, they have a point.

However, he seemed to get the team into the right plays, and while he only had 15 throws and 8 completions, 5 of those completions were quality to high quality NFL decisions/throws.

I am still very worried about the strip sacks though. Man, he has to learn to take better care of the football. Someone brought up that he did not have a problem with ball security in college, so hopefully he gets this straightened out. However, teams are going to come hard after the football when he is in the pocket, because they see that they can get the ball loose.

I am coming around to the idea that he should start from this point out thought. He has shown considerable growth, in all areas. He is more aware of what is going on around him, he seems to understand the playbook, and he is able to make impact big plays. I want to see if he can continue his growth.

He did what was asked of him by throwing a couple of TDs, no INTs, winning the game, and earning the highest QBR for the Browns since DA in '07. Yes, he fumbled a couple of times, but you're really stretching the hate for him on this one. Some people just can't give due credit and are blinded by hate. He did fine and will continue to learn as he plays more. By the way, he did live to play additional downs by throwing it away a few times. Fumbles happen, he was at least able to avoid throwing any INTs (although his one throw to Benjamin in double coverage was about as bad of a decision a QB could make). Adrian Peterson fumbled it three times yesterday, he must suck and not know how to run the ball.

Both fumbles were from blindside hits.

They want him to stay in the pocket and trust his o line..

He just needs to work on his internal clock. And learn to throw it away if it expires.

Not every play needs to be a drawn in the sand scramble deep ball..

Trying to get it all at once is what gets young QBs in trouble.

But he didn't and your are 100% wrong. You say that as if all QB's that throw a pick 6 should be benched for the season. You would see a lot of great QB's riding the pine in the NFL.

Your hate for Manziel is epic.

That about sums it up for me as well.
Those two plays were great, and the win was great, but there is a LOT in his game that needs to be cleaned up and improved upon before he's ready to be annointed as anything and I think Pett clearly sees this.

Add in Manziel's ego/persona history, and it's probably a really solid idea to not be to high on the kid outwardly speaking. Let the kid feel like he still has a long way to go and a lot of work to do - because he does.

I'd personally start Manziel, because i think he has a bit more to offer than McCown.

Regardless, I think they will probably start McCown.

I just hope we win!

Hopefully whoever "a few people" are realize that the best way for success for the young QBs is exactly the way we played yesterday (and the Titans played in week 1), at least adequate running game, good defense, special teams contributions, take the game OFF their shoulders... None of these young QBs are likely to have consistent success if they are asked to throw the ball 30-35 times a game...

QB Fumbles happen, yes, but not every 8th drop back. That's his rate after two games this season. Don't shoot the messenger.

A little search in the archives on you revealed you weren't so supportive on all of our past QBs, go figure, lol

JF even said in his presser he had two hands on the ball, and still it was put on the ground. If the cumulative amount of fumbles doesn't concern you... then I don't know.

4 fumbles in 2 games should concern everybody, it's completely unsustainable. 4 fumbles should be a season, not 2 games... I just think it's something that can be improved up with better technique and better awareness.

Johnny Manziel is a pleasant surprise, Cleveland Browns should start him this week -- Terry Pluto (video)


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Johnny Manziel surprised me.

I'm probably not the only one who was pleasantly pleased by how he performed in the Browns 28-14 victory over Tennessee.

The Browns won that game with Manziel throwing only 15 passes. They won that game with him not running the ball; he had three carries for a grand total of one yard.

They won that game with Manziel following the game plan, using his mobility to create a big play on the 50-yard touchdown pass in the fourth quarter.

"Vintage Manziel," said Coach Mike Pettine.

I'd say it's the "Good Johnny," the Johnny Manziel learning how the NFL game works.

There are still problems with the second-year quarterback.

He was hit hard twice in the pocket, and fumbled both times near the Cleveland 30-yard line. Fortunately for Manziel, the Browns recovered both of those loose balls.

In the 31-10 opening game loss to the Jets, Manziel also fumbled twice. Same type of plays, him dropping back to pass and not hanging on the ball when hit hard. Only New York grabbed both of those balls, setting up two Jets touchdowns.

But in the loss to the Jets, there were some hints about Manziel maturing as a quarterback.

In Sunday's victory, Manziel made significant progress in his third pro start. That's why No. 4 should start Sunday when Oakland comes to FirstEnergy Stadium.

McCOWN CAN WAIT

Josh McCown is coming off a concussion. He was not cleared to play Sunday, but he probably will be OK for this week.
McCown is 36. He is a very good backup quarterback who understands the deal in the NFL. He can wait while Manziel plays.

McCown is 36. He is a very good backup quarterback who understands the deal in the NFL. He can wait while Manziel plays.

Let's face it, this is Cleveland.

In Cleveland, quarterbacks get hurt. Quarterbacks change. In four of the last five seasons, the Browns have started three different quarterbacks.

Odds are McCown will play again at some point this season. I hope it's not soon, because that means Manziel is playing well and staying healthy. The second part of that statement is nearly as important as the first.

Durability is an issue with Manziel.

He injured his hamstring in his third pro game last season. He missed two preseason games and several practices because of tendinitis in his right elbow.

Listed at 6-foot and 210 pounds, Manziel still looks very small compared to most NFL quarterbacks. He is wisely learning to cut down on his runs that lead to tackles, because that is not a long term strategy for success.

Part of the reason the Browns allowed Brian Hoyer to leave and brought in McCown is that the 13-year veteran is willing to accept whatever role he's assigned.

The 29-year-old Hoyer is still trying to establish himself as an NFL quarterback. He opened the season as Houston's starter, but was replaced by Ryan Mallett in the second half of the first game of the season.

Not only is McCown more suited to mentor Manziel, but Manziel is more open to being taught after his humbling rookie season.


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Browns’ Johnny Manziel on beating the Titans for his 1st NFL win Cleveland Browns quarterback Johnny Manziel talks about the final touchdown to Travis Benjamin and the teams performance in the home opening 28-14 victory over the Tennessee Titans at FirstEnergy Stadium Sunday, Sept. 20, 2015. Dave Andersen, Northeast Ohio Media Group

THERE'S PROGRESS

The Browns want Manziel to stay in the pocket longer, to not bolt at the first sign of pressure. He is doing that more often this season than a year ago.

Manziel is part of the offense. He's not Johnny Football, as he was at Texas A&M. He is not the sun, with everything else revolving around him.

For the Browns to win, they need a strong running game. They need to make sure Manziel doesn't have to carry the team with his arm and legs.

So they ran the ball 30 times against Tennessee, a key stat, as I noted in my Sunday Browns Scribbles.

Manziel had one carry for two yards, and he slid before being decked by a defender. He can use his quickness to pick up first downs, but must avoid contact.

He was willing to do that Sunday, not easy for a player who won a Heisman Trophy partly because of his running ability.

In two years at Texas A&M, he carried the ball 345 times and ran for 30 touchdowns and 2,160 yards. Those sorts of stats normally are found next to the names of star running backs.

Those days of crazy legs and wild runs are over.

This year, Manziel is doing it more the Browns way...and the NFL way.

THE FULL GAME

He also is learning how hard it is to play four full quarters and win an NFL game.

For example, he replaced McCown in the second quarter of the opener against the Jets. Manziel completed 4 of 6 passes for 93 yards, and put 10 points on the scoreboard.

In the second half, it was zero points. He was 9-of-18 passing for 89 yards. He had an interception. He lost two fumbles. It was a miserable experience after all the hope of the first half.

Defenses adjust and adapt. The longer a quarterback is in the game, the harder they make it for him.

Manziel connected on his first four passes for 100 yards on Sunday. The Browns had a 14-0 lead. He was 4-of-11 for the rest of game, throwing for 72 yards.

But in the middle of the fourth quarter, he scrambled and found Benjamin for that 50-yard game-breaking touchdown pass.

Only once did he throw the ball into double coverage. Andrew Hawkins did a good job battling two defensive backs to prevent an interception.

In general, Manziel deserved high marks for working within the offense -- and being creative when there was room to do so.

He now has played 14 NFL quarters, and he's improving.

So it's time to see more, starting on Sunday. linky dinky

Please, feel free to post links about what you're talking about because I don't know what you're referring to. I always try to be honest and fair in my assessments of players.

Sweet! We're bring back Phil Dawson?

That's Manziel's profile on the NFL website.

yea 39 pass and 4 fumbles. 1 fumble every 10 pass. thats where he got it from.

4 TDS and 1 for every 10 pass attempts is pretty good also lol

He said after searching the archives, I haven't been too supportive of all of our past QBs. I'm asking him to post those links because I don't know what he's talking about.

Merril Hoge knot so down on Johnny Manziel today: 'Without a doubt Manziel should start'

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ss...ncart_big-photo

By Mary Kay Cabot, Northeast Ohio Media Group on September 21, 2015 at 10:41 AM, updated September 21, 2015 at 1:22 PM

CLEVELAND, Ohio -- ESPN analyst Merril Hoge reversed field on Johnny Manziel Monday and now says "knot so fast."

Sporting the orange tie he promised ESPN Cleveland on Friday that he'd wear if Manziel "lit it up" against the Titans, Hoge said unequivocally on Monday morning's SportsCenter (see clip below) that Manziel should get the nod this week against the Raiders.

"Without a doubt, Manziel should start,'' Hoge told anchor Hannah Storm.

"Johnny Manziel?'' Storm asked incredulously?

"Without question,'' Hoge said.

The 180-degree turn comes a week after Hoge urged the Browns on to "get another guy in there and go in another direction -- immediately. Cut bait. Move on."

He noted that the Browns were helping out their AFC North foes with the Johnny Football experiment.

"Cincinnati, Pittsburgh and Baltimore, they love the plan that Cleveland's under,'' he said. "Keep going down that plan. Because all you do is set your organization back one more year by babysitting this guy as your starting quarterback, so keep doing that for the other team.''

Manziel shot back at Hoge on Friday, saying "I think Merril need to worry about his big neckties,'' referring to Hoge's vintage wide knots.

Then, Manziel promptly went out and won the Heisman Bowl, throwing touchdown passes of 60 and 50 yards to Travis Benjamin to beat rookie Marcus Mariota and the Titans, 28-14. It was Manziel's first career victory in his third start.

Afterward, he said he didn't derive satisfaction from proving his critics wrong.

"It's satisfaction seeing the rest of the guys in the locker room, all those guys dancing, getting the first win of the season, getting the win that we really needed,'' said Manziel. "So Merril Hoge will always be Merril Hoge. For me, it's just sweet to get the first win, sweet to see how the locker room was after the game.''

And would he be checking out Hoge in the orange tie?

"Of course.''

Was there more of that discussion with Hoge?

I'm wondering why he reversed course. I wonder if they asked him that.

Of course Hoge wants him to play more so that when Manziel does have a stinker, he can get back on his soapbox.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nfl/browns/2015/09/21/johnny-manziel-cleveland-browns/72559552/

USA TODAY Sports' Tom Pelissero looks at what we learned in Week 2 of the NFL season, and what it means moving forward. USA TODAY Sports
09-21-15-johnny-manziel

(Photo: Andrew Weber, USA TODAY)
743 CONNECT 55 TWEETLINKEDIN 5 COMMENTEMAILMORE

CLEVELAND - Johnny Manziel isn't giving the Cleveland Browns much choice.

Even when Josh McCown is cleared to return from the concussion that sidelined him Sunday, the Browns have to stick with Manziel as their starter. Cleveland is almost two decades into its search for a quarterback who can carry the franchise and, solid a citizen as McCown is, the 36-year-old journeyman isn't it.

Manziel may not be, either. But he showed enough glimpses of the athleticism and resourcefulness that made him a first-round pick in 2014 in Sunday's start against Tennessee that the Browns owe it to themselves and their fans to find out.

The sooner, the better.

"Some inconsistency, but clearly made some big plays," Browns coach Mike Pettine said after Manziel sealed Cleveland's 28-14 victory with a 50-yard scoring pass to Travis Benjamin.

Manziel didn't pose a threat to Andrew Luck or Cam Newton for the title of NFL's best young quarterback against the Titans, his third career start. His quarterback rating of 133.9 was the highest by a Browns quarterback since 2007, but he threw only 15 passes – four in the second half.

USA TODAY

The Harrisons: Sam Bradford among Week 2's dishonored in NFL

For the second week, he was strip-sacked twice, though Cleveland recovered the ball both times.

But Manziel wasn't the woefully unprepared and thoroughly overmatched train wreck of his rookie season, either. He was steadier in the pocket, particularly early in the game. He showed more of the patience and savvy that it takes to be successful in the NFL, buying time until he spotted the open Benjamin on the last touchdown rather than taking off running on the third-and-6 play.

Most importantly, he led the Browns to a victory, their first since last Nov. 23 and only their second in the last nine games.

"I think I'm getting better," Manziel said. "I still missed some things that I'm going to be hard on myself about."

Manziel is a captivating figure, has been since his Heisman Trophy-winning season as a sophomore at Texas A&M. His hair-on-fire style can cost him – and his team – big. But it's thrilling to watch when it works – "Vintage Manziel" is how Pettine described the last TD -- and that fine line between debacle and awe is why people can't take their eyes off of him.

His brashness has only added to his appeal, though he's making good on his promise to tone it down following a 10-week stint in rehab over the offseason. Rather than flashing his "money" sign after connecting with Benjamin on a 60-yard TD on his first pass of the game, Manziel raised his arm and pumped his fist.

He even passed on the opportunity to fire back at persistent critic Merril Hoge.

"The satisfaction is seeing the rest of the guys in the locker room … all those guys dancing, getting the first win of the season and getting a win that we really needed," he said. "Merril Hoge will always be Merril Hoge. For me, it's sweet to get the first win, sweet to see how the locker room was after the game."

That kind of jubilation has been all too rare in Cleveland in recent seasons. While there's no guarantee Manziel would make it a regular scene as the starter, Pettine and the Browns need to let him try.

Start Manziel. He will take some lumps this year, but we must remember that he is only 22 years old. Experience is the best teacher.

Wow. These articles are hilarious. This is what people mean when they make fun of Cleveland's media. You have a guy that goes from saying "cut him" to "start him" in about 24 hours? What a boob.

I'm just as excited about Manziel's game as anyone, but that doesn't mean you change course and go with him. Clearly, what they've been doing with Johnny has been working, so we're going to start deviating from that plan the moment it starts working? I think Manziel is showing he belongs in the league, and has the potential to become a starter, but at least a couple of things need to be fixed before he's put out there as a full time starter, and the first thing is the fumbling. QB's get hit, sure, but they shouldn't be putting it on the ground anywhere near the frequency that he is. I think he could also continue to hone his decision making, as he still makes at least one boneheaded mistake per game without a lot of passing attempts.

I hope Pettine is just being coy when he's talking about making a decision later about the starting QB. Manziel is doing great, but he still needs to improve, as well as establish a longer track record of improvement (prove his performance trend right now is the real deal, and not just a temporary thing).

Heard it on the radio this am. To the beset of my recollection the conversation went as follows. Forgive me for any discrepancies.


Hoge said that JFF had a good game but that one game does not a career make. He said he still stands by his previous assessment that he doesn't think that JFF will be a successful NFL QB.

When asked point blank who should start he said Manziel. When asked why he said that the Browns not only drafted him in the 1st round but traded up to get him. They need to play him to see exactly what they have so they go into the off-season knowing whether or not they need to get another Qb or not.

Look it's very simple. If they can't decide who to start between JF or Josh then start Austin and that solves the debate.

Wasn't that only Manziels second career start (Cincy last year...horrible...and now against the Titans..which was much better)

He also started against Carolina, when he injured.

Hog is very good at using Manziel to get his name recognition and ratings up..he's smarter than I initially gave him credit for.

When Pet said these were plays Johnny was making in practice, it isnt fool's gold, the decision has probably already been made. You just dont replace the QB after a big win especialy when he has a 133 passer rating. Its not like McCown did anything at all to be the starter either. he led one drive as a Brown and he is a 36 year old with half a decent season of play in his 15 years in the NFL.

I think everyone is happy that the kid played good enough to win. But I don't see anyone thinking he's the second coming of Payton Manning or Tom Brady.

I liked what I saw of him on Sunday. Pettine explained the reason for not throwing more when we were up by 21 points. When that changed, they opened it up a little more. Still being cautious, but Manziel went for it at the end to clinch the win. I say Manziel because of a comment Flip made about coaching being overated LOL..

But he's not proven himself yet.. But has proven he's improved. That's about it.

j/c:

GM.....Why in hell would we want to take away Johnny's two big plays? That doesn't even make sense.

Rish.....Cleveland fans are the only fans to see things greener on the other side? Come on, man!

There a lot of dumb posts on this thread. We should start Johnny and hope that our coaches can do a better job w/the playcalling and scheme. McCown isn't going to lead us anywhere. Time to find out if JM is the guy or not.

So there's "a lot of dumb posts on this thread" yet you called out caldawg recently (an embarrassing over-reaction on your part) for saying some posters should STFU, when he was just talking in general terms.

Explain to me the difference, if you don't mind, because you're always saying other posters are insulting but you're as adept at that as anyone.
I mean, really.