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Great post Rish.
Point 13 is key. And I totall agree with 14.
As for why they kept Manziel, the reason is money. The cap hit would be more than 3 times his actual cap. Most of his contract is guaranteed, so might as well hang on to him and see what happens, similar to the Gordon situation. As long as he didn't just waste a roster spot, he was a keeper by default. That's why Thad Lewis was broughtin. He did beat him out, so that was the first ounce of respect he got back from the Browns.
Gilbert is in a similar situation btw...
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"Players come along at different points in time" - Ray Farmer
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Man, that was a lot of rambling. Yes it was. But at least it was some interesting rambling.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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Thank goodness, at least we have someone who can see over his linemen.
Last in, first out, the sign of a true champion!![[Linked Image from i301.photobucket.com]](http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn59/Stetson1376/c8f5fed9-fc01-4b87-bda3-b2b53f0b16cb_zpse708e05e.jpg)
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Great post Rish.
Point 13 is key. And I totall agree with 14.
As for why they kept Manziel, the reason is money. The cap hit would be more than 3 times his actual cap. Most of his contract is guaranteed, so might as well hang on to him and see what happens, similar to the Gordon situation. As long as he didn't just waste a roster spot, he was a keeper by default. That's why Thad Lewis was broughtin. He did beat him out, so that was the first ounce of respect he got back from the Browns.
Gilbert is in a similar situation btw... So what. That was last year. None of our QB's did well last year. At least we have two QB's that have shown some life this year. Man let it go dude.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Man, that was a lot of rambling. Yes it was. But at least it was some interesting rambling. Not really.
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson.
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Bench your first round QB coming off the best game by a browns QB in almost 10 years for a career backup. Brilliant!! They must have absolutely ZERO confidence in Manziel.
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Bench your first round QB coming off the best game by a browns QB in almost 10 years for a career backup. No.
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Thank goodness, at least we have someone who can see over his linemen. It'll be easier to see the defensive players he's throwing to
Tomorrow is the most important thing in life. Comes into us at midnight very clean. It's perfect when it arrives and it puts itself in our hands. It hopes we've learned something from yesterday. -John Wayne
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Bench your first round QB coming off the best game by a browns QB in almost 10 years for a career backup. Brilliant!! They must have absolutely ZERO confidence in Manziel. He beat up one of the worst defenses in football. It's not the second coming. If you listened to the player interviews you would understand that Josh has a vastly superior understanding of the offense, reading defenses, and knows where his team mates should be. For now, it makes sense to start Josh who was looking great against a vastly superior Jets defense. I do think it was good that Johnny was able to play well and have a game to build up his confidence in himself and for the coaches to trust in Manziel a bit more. Maybe now they can feel assured he is a good enough prospect to keep building up instead of drafting another QB. I think its good to build up Johnny's confidence and bring him in slowly. It's the best way to permanently change some of his bad habits. Give him time and he still might turn out to be a special player. Who knows =)
You can't fix stupid but you can destroy ignorance. When you destroy ignorance you remove the justifications for evil. If you want to destroy evil then educate our people. Hate is a tool of the stupid to deal with what they can't understand.
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Bench your first round QB coming off the best game by a browns QB in almost 10 years for a career backup. No. Manziel's passer rating was great, but there were many other performances that were clearly better. And even if we are just going by passer rating, Anderson had two better games.
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So 8 years and I said, almost 10. I knew it was DA but I didnt remember what year.
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If your statement isn't exact to the day, you couldn't be more wrong (according to this place).
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It really doesn't matter. The way McCown leaves himself open for hits, he is already history.
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J/C
To me, the worst thing Pettine could have done would have been to make a decision to name McCown the starter in the beginning, then go on through training camp and the preseason giving him all the reps and then, after he played just one series, and after only two games, do a complete 180 degree turnaround and change the starter.
That would look like, and would probably be, like he didn't trust his own plan from the beginning. The plan they worked so hard on to implement.
It would have reminded me of Chris Palmer deciding he was going to bring Couch along slowly and go with Ty Detmer as his starter. Then, after one game, throw that plan out the window and start Couch in game two and for the rest of the season.
Like Palmer before him, I'd have been wondering how much thought did you really give toward your initial plan in the first place?
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Does this mean that Pet & Flip think that JM is not ready yet? Maybe. They did prepare the entire offseason with McCown as the starter. I just hope they are right about this. We all know how ugly this can get. I hope they have Johnny on a plan/schedule and that Sunday was just an early unplanned test. We all want Johnny out there. I'm surprised at the decision. I'm just trying to see their rationale. Does Pettine feel like he's worried about job security at the end of the season, and that an extra win or two with an experienced quarterback could trump the ups and downs of a young 22 year old QB?
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So 8 years and I said, almost 10. I knew it was DA but I didnt remember what year. Either way. Just because Manziel's passer rating was good doesn't make his performance better than some of our other QBs best days. He completed eight passes. I am a huge Manziel fan. I wanted to draft him. That was not one of the best QB performances in "almost ten years."
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So 8 years and I said, almost 10. I knew it was DA but I didnt remember what year. Either way. Just because Manziel's passer rating was good doesn't make his performance better than some of our other QBs best days. He completed eight passes. I am a huge Manziel fan. I wanted to draft him. That was not one of the best QB performances in "almost ten years." I guess another way of saying this is this: Yes, Manziel performed well. He performed better than many of our previous QBs have performed. The standard of performance is not high. I realize it sounds like I don't like Manziel. That is not true. I wish he was starting in week three (although I understand why he is not).
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Btw, Teddy got a +4.0 grade from PFF. Here are a third of TB's passing yards from Sunday. http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-cant-miss-...on-for-49-yardsPFF is about on-par with Bleacher Report for me at this point. You know they just have open calls for people to review games for them? More like PFFffffff.
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Bench your first round QB coming off the best game by a browns QB in almost 10 years for a career backup. Brilliant!! They must have absolutely ZERO confidence in Manziel. There, this is CLEARLY how you really meant to type this, because you could not have been serious with that rhetoric.
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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And with the first pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, the Cleveland Browns select....
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And with the first pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, the Cleveland Browns select.... Did we trade up with the Bears?
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If your statement isn't exact to the day, you couldn't be more wrong (according to this place). Lol!
![[Linked Image from i28.photobucket.com]](http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c201/shadedog/mcenroe2.jpg) gmstrong -----------------
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And with the first pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, the Cleveland Browns select.... As long as Ray Farmer isn't drafting...I have faith. LOL
After 55 years, I'm walking away from this dumpster fire. Good luck to everyone who continues to hang on. You'll need it.
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well I figured Josh would be back at starter.... I still like a lot I saw from Johnny but has a lot more to learn... I think those two fumbles are a huge reason he's on the sidelines. There's a lot to be said about the QB that protects the ball... Johnny will see the field again this season, but he's got a lot to learn still. Don't know if he'll be our franchise, but I'm excited about his potential after this last week...
<><
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Didn't Josh fumble the ball on his only series?
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Yeah, but that's not because he was doing dumb things extending the play like Manziel... it was because he was helicoptering headfirst towards the end zone.
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Reading between all the lines, here's where I think we are:
1. Manziel was drafted last year to be the team's franchise QB.
2. Instead of getting a franchise QB, the Browns got an immature, entitled punk of a kid who really only cared about himself. On top of being a punk, he didn't work hard, earned zero respect in the locker room, and found solace in some type of substance abuse.
3. Because of that very disastrous rookie season, coaches and players alike wrote Manziel off. Justifiably so.
4. A new coach combined with a new QB always gets a grace period. Manziel burned Pettine's grace period.
5. Manziel hit rock bottom.
6. Browns stood by him. Why, I'm not sure.
7. Manziel comes into this season with no respect, trust, or like from his teammates or coaches. A likely insurmountable mountain to climb out of. Even if he appears a changed man, it is often too hard to repair lost trust and respect.
8. Browns sign McCown to be the starter. Pettine lost his grace period and needed a starter. This was the best they could do. If Manziel showed up to camp sober, then he could mentor him as well. But that was way down McCown's list of duties.
9. Manziel starts behaving the way he should have his rookie season in camp. Makes incremental improvement in his mental game, physical game, and work ethic.
10. But like most rookie QBs (which Manziel essentially still is) they are not ready to start their rookie years. Most first round guys start right away even though they are not ready because the coach has a grace period and the QB is the future and the organization is willing to take their lumps. Some first round rookies get in after their rookie season starts but mostly all get in the first year. Organizations take their lumps and their crappy records and start drafting talent the next year to put around the QB (see: Raiders).
11. Because of Manziel's actions, he did not afford the Browns or Pettine this opportunity.
12. So Pettine has to adjust. He has no grace period. He keeps talking about a plan in place for Manziel. I think the plan is to have McCown start, have a good record, and let Manziel continue to sit on the bench and learn with the hope they can turn to Manziel next year or even the year after.
13. If Manziel didn't blow his rookie season last year and allowed Pettine to have his grace period we wouldn't be in this position.
14. The positive sign is if last year's Manziel was behaving and playing like this year's Manziel, I think most would be excited about the future.
15. But Manziel altered the plan with his actions and this is where we sit. Sucks. But it is what it is. All we can do now is hope for continued improvement from him and to see enough before going into next year's draft. I feel like if we finish with a terrible record, we are drafting a QB. If we finish middle of the pack with McCown or some combination of McCown / Manziel, we'll ride these same two guys next year with no clear cut future for this franchise.
This was all created by Manziel's actions. Man, I just depressed myself.
The best we can hope for is this all takes care of itself organically. I'm not rooting for McCown to get hurt or play bad, but the best thing that can happen for the Browns is one of those two things, then Manziel comes in, plays well, and we have our guy. We finish middle of the pack and start building a team around him.
But Manziel really screwed Pettine. Big time. And he screwed us fans and now we have to pay for it. We can go ahead and carry a grudge and burn him at the stake or we can move past it, forgive, and let him prove that he is the guy.
The best possible outcome for the Browns is he becomes the franchise QB. That allows you to start drafting a team to put around him. Imagine going into the draft with the QB situation resolved.
Man, that was a lot of rambling. That is an excellent post. A couple more points. Manziel's drafting was a lightning rod. Going out of the box, 1/3rd of his own fans despise him, 1/3rd love him as the solution to the endless run of QB's. Manziel created his own demons that eventually caught up to him. I did not like the selection because of the associated drama that would occur. I did not like moving up for him with Bridgewater and Carr on the board as well. I thought it would take Manziel longer to develop because of the system and his maturity. The Browns needed a starter, not a project. Nonetheless he has a skill set and an ability to make plays that can be successful in the NFL. It's not going to be prototypical, but Brees has a ring. If he is a willing student he can become a successful QB. I nether buy into the hype or distractors, and will simply let his actions and play on the field determine my opinion. Everything to date suggests that this year he was to sit. Personally I want to see him play to see if the Browns need to spend another first rounder on resolving this terrible QB situation. Until the Browns have resolved this issue they will continue to struggle. I am happy to see more positive actions on his part and better play on the field.
Welcome back, Joe, we missed you!
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And with the first pick in the 2016 NFL Draft, the Cleveland Browns select.... We can only hope to be in that position and hopefully find a real QB. God knows we don't have one on this roster.
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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Fantastic post Rish, and pretty spot on IMO. Something that's more and more rare on here these days. Thanks for that.
Johnny, in his best game as a pro by a mile, completed 8 freaking passes and completed less than 50% of his throws. He benefited from playing one of the 3 or 4 worst teams in the league, the team being +3 in turnovers and getting a score from special teams. With all those stars aligned (something that only happens MAYBE once a season) it still took a back yard, circus style heave to Benjamin to seal the deal.
Progress, sure. At least he's not wetting himself on the field anymore. Beyond that.....not so much.
Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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I know my post had an anti-Manziel slant to it, but I want him to succeed. And I want to give him the chance to succeed. And I want to stick with Pettine and Farmer as well. I think the only thing holding Manziel back is his height, and I haven't seen anything in the last two games that lead me to believe it has been an issue.
I am happy with his development and believe he has turned the corner both professionally and personally. I'm pissed off that he wasted a year of the fans time and Pettine's time. Part of the reason for the post was to just kind of recap how we got here. Obviously, he is at fault here. But I think changing course and not developing him...and not letting Pettine and Farmer for that matter...see things through... would be a big mistake.
Again, the best thing that can happen for the Browns is this all happens kind of organically. Manziel takes over, shows he can be the guy, we win some games, and go into next offseason with the QB issue resolved.
LOL - The Rish will be upset with this news as well. KS just doesn't prioritize winning...
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rish...good post.
Johnny was not prepared to be a NFL QB when the Browns drafted him and Texas Tech did a terrible job of teaching him the basics skills needed to play in the NFL.
Johnny wasted his rookie season and had to focus on rehab in the off season, before he could start working to improve his QB basics.
Manziel has so much to learn and it has only been 5 months since he left rehab. It is a bit unrealistic to expect Manziel to catch up on what he missed out on last season and during his rehab period this year.
I see this as sort of a test for JMan..he says he is disappointed by Pettine's choice..how will Johnny react to "disappointment"/not getting something he wanted?
...will Johnny fall off the wagon the first time he is faced with "disappointment"?
This is a good test for JM
FOOTBALL IS NOT BASEBALL
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Might want to edit that, mac.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
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Does this mean that Pet & Flip think that JM is not ready yet? We all want Johnny out there. I'm surprised at the decision. I'm just trying to see their rationale. Does Pettine feel like he's worried about job security at the end of the season, and that an extra win or two with an experienced quarterback could trump the ups and downs of a young 22 year old QB? Or maybe the TEAMS development and the installation of a new Offense from a rookie OC trumps the ups and downs of a young 22yr old QB? The people who keep pimping for JM to remain the starter keep ignoring this fact. Pet's #1 job is the building of this team, his #1 job is not the development of JM. Ideally JM's development can contribute to that, but there are still 52 other players involved.
"Hey, I'm a reasonable guy. But I've just experienced some very unreasonable things."
-Jack Burton
-It looks like the Harvard Boys know what they are doing after all.
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Browns could win the next 6 games with McCown as starter and this is still the wrong move.
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Browns could win the next 6 games with McCown as starter and this is still the wrong move.
If we won the next 6 games I'd run around my town naked ... twice (and trust me, no one wants to see that ONCE) I'd be shocked if we won two consecutive games after week 4. We have a CHANCE this week to win ... after this, it's slim pickins IMO
"First down inside the 10. A score here will put us in the Super Bowl. Cooper is far to the left as Njoku settles into the slot. Moore is flanked out wide to the right. Chubb and Ford are split in the backfield as Watson takes the snap ... Here we go."
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http://espncleveland.com/common/more.php?m=49&action=blog&r=17&post_id=49651Many a true word said in jest. No doubt Grossi's article will have mixed reception here .... but I certainly think there is an element of truth to what he is gnawing at. Every 3 and out series will get over scrutinized. Every missed receiver will result in a storm of criticism. I disagree that the vast majority of fans want JMM to start or are somehow vested in Johnny. I think most of the support for JMM starting is because some fans are just anxious to see whether Johnny is the guy or if we have to start again next year. . . . Myself, I think this team has potential to challenge for a playoff spot and I want the QB that has the best chance of winning to start, end of story. If McCown plays as well as he flashed so far in a Browns uniform without the knuckleheaded plays where he puts his body in harms way. And personally I think that's what Pet is making his decision based on. I don't buy into the second guessing on ulterior motives. . . . . . . if I was looking for a QB who might have lost Pet's trust, I'd point to the way McCown threw his body on the line in PRESEASON - and how Pettine was telling him to be smart and pointed to his head from the sidelines ... and then in the first game back McCown gets hurt on the first drive of the game in such a moronic way. . . . that's the guy I have less trust in at this point. That's me. With JMM - I think part of his rehabilitation and part of his process of becoming a starting NFL QB is taking him at his word and giving him enough rope that he can hang himself if he wants/decides to. You can't trust him to be the best he can be - while all the while carrying a secret grudge and not trusting him at some level.
The more things change the more they stay the same.
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Does this mean that Pet & Flip think that JM is not ready yet? Actually Pet was very Complementary towards Manziel. Said he needed to clean a few things up, like fumbling. It may be unpopular to think this, but I believe he really likes Johnny and has a plan and is sticking to the plan.
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Reading between all the lines, here's where I think we are:
1. Manziel was drafted last year to be the team's franchise QB.
2. Instead of getting a franchise QB, the Browns got an immature, entitled punk of a kid who really only cared about himself. On top of being a punk, he didn't work hard, earned zero respect in the locker room, and found solace in some type of substance abuse.
3. Because of that very disastrous rookie season, coaches and players alike wrote Manziel off. Justifiably so.
4. A new coach combined with a new QB always gets a grace period. Manziel burned Pettine's grace period.
5. Manziel hit rock bottom.
6. Browns stood by him. Why, I'm not sure.
7. Manziel comes into this season with no respect, trust, or like from his teammates or coaches. A likely insurmountable mountain to climb out of. Even if he appears a changed man, it is often too hard to repair lost trust and respect.
8. Browns sign McCown to be the starter. Pettine lost his grace period and needed a starter. This was the best they could do. If Manziel showed up to camp sober, then he could mentor him as well. But that was way down McCown's list of duties.
9. Manziel starts behaving the way he should have his rookie season in camp. Makes incremental improvement in his mental game, physical game, and work ethic.
10. But like most rookie QBs (which Manziel essentially still is) they are not ready to start their rookie years. Most first round guys start right away even though they are not ready because the coach has a grace period and the QB is the future and the organization is willing to take their lumps. Some first round rookies get in after their rookie season starts but mostly all get in the first year. Organizations take their lumps and their crappy records and start drafting talent the next year to put around the QB (see: Raiders).
11. Because of Manziel's actions, he did not afford the Browns or Pettine this opportunity.
12. So Pettine has to adjust. He has no grace period. He keeps talking about a plan in place for Manziel. I think the plan is to have McCown start, have a good record, and let Manziel continue to sit on the bench and learn with the hope they can turn to Manziel next year or even the year after.
13. If Manziel didn't blow his rookie season last year and allowed Pettine to have his grace period we wouldn't be in this position.
14. The positive sign is if last year's Manziel was behaving and playing like this year's Manziel, I think most would be excited about the future.
15. But Manziel altered the plan with his actions and this is where we sit. Sucks. But it is what it is. All we can do now is hope for continued improvement from him and to see enough before going into next year's draft. I feel like if we finish with a terrible record, we are drafting a QB. If we finish middle of the pack with McCown or some combination of McCown / Manziel, we'll ride these same two guys next year with no clear cut future for this franchise.
This was all created by Manziel's actions. Man, I just depressed myself.
The best we can hope for is this all takes care of itself organically. I'm not rooting for McCown to get hurt or play bad, but the best thing that can happen for the Browns is one of those two things, then Manziel comes in, plays well, and we have our guy. We finish middle of the pack and start building a team around him.
But Manziel really screwed Pettine. Big time. And he screwed us fans and now we have to pay for it. We can go ahead and carry a grudge and burn him at the stake or we can move past it, forgive, and let him prove that he is the guy.
The best possible outcome for the Browns is he becomes the franchise QB. That allows you to start drafting a team to put around him. Imagine going into the draft with the QB situation resolved.
Man, that was a lot of rambling. Good rambling, Rishuz. I have to wonder though...What is really Pettine's leash or timeline here? Haslam has said that he wants stability and firing the coach/GM every other year is a recipe for disaster. Also makes me wonder...How much was Haslam REALLY involved in the JM pick last year? I know he's publicly said he wasn't but what is said publicly and what is said in private are often 2 different stories. Does Haslam give Pettine/Farmer more leeway if the JM pick was his own idea and it doesn't pan out? Is he willing to give Pettine a longer grace period to see if JM can develop? I guess time will tell.
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*In Baker we trust*
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,064
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 11,064 |
Agreed. Those pushing to start Manziel so we can know what he has and still lacks seem to be giving him starts without being sure of what we have. They saw a positive piece of that puzzle in his win. Took some fluke big plays for us to get the notch.
Hope he stays focused and hungry and healthy while he continues to learn. So I am okay for Pett's decision for now.
Just win, baby.
"Every responsibility implies opportunity, and every opportunity implies responsibility." Otis Allen Glazebrook, 1880
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Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475
Legend
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Legend
Joined: Sep 2006
Posts: 17,475 |
yeah I stated earlier in the week that if McCown was cleared by Wednesday then he would be the expected Starter. But it would now be Wednesday not Friday as the week before.
Wednesday is when they put in the Game plan at practice...prior to wednesday is drills which cause of the elbow thing Manziel is usually limited.
So actually despite all the talking heads out there this was the logical theory. You see one thing about those talking heads. They have us WRITTEN OFF for the season so its. We know McCown isn't the Franchise QB so the Browns should Play Manziel and see how he progresses. Which is best for them to see.
Our coaching staff will know how he is progressing we don't have to show it to the talking heads to get their approval. Continue the growth process meanwhile with a relative clean pocket provided by our OL and Defenses geared to stopping the run. McCown is best to execute the game plan just like he was in July & August. One week does not change that thought.
Odds are Manziel will be needed as our starter. Unfortunately for McCown due to an injury of some sort. I believe 8-10 weeks from now. That will be the OFFICIAL Start of the Manziel ERA!!!
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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DawgTalkers.net
Forums The Archives 2015 NFL Season Looking Back: Browns 20 Oakland
27 McCown Cleared; Set to Start
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