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I remember what Bum Phillips said about Don Shula ... "He can take his'n and beat your'n; and he can your'n and beat his'n.".
So there's that.
But given that Don Shula's are few and far between, I'm tempted to think that talent trumps coaching. But then I remember hearing NFL pundits say things like: "Hold up your thumb and forefinger and hold them a half inch apart. That's the difference in talent between the best team in the league and the worst.". (I personally believe that statement should be amended to include the proviso "the talent of the teams, not counting QB".)
Then I read things factoids like Bill Belichick is a .500 coach when his starting QB isn't Tom Brady.
So I come to these conclusions:
1. A competent coach is good enough to win with, as long as he doesn't get cute and screw things up.
2. Most talent on NFL teams is close to equal, assuming you have someone choosing talent in the draft and FA with good football sense.
3. Its all about the QB. Can't put it any better than this.
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The argument I tried to lay out is that NFL talent and Championship teams are driven by talented, hard working, teachers. Yes they are but without talent on the field, you are not a championship team. You might be good, you might be Northwestern or Stanford or Duke... you might have a good regular season and make some noise... but without the talent of an Ohio State or Alabama, you are NOT a championship team. And the same applies in the NFL. As Coach Sam says, "You never saw a jockey carry a horse over the finish line." I've never seen a great jockey win on a donkey either. 
yebat' Putin
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The argument I tried to lay out is that NFL talent and Championship teams are driven by talented, hard working, teachers. Yes they are but without talent on the field, you are not a championship team. You might be good, you might be Northwestern or Stanford or Duke... you might have a good regular season and make some noise... but without the talent of an Ohio State or Alabama, you are NOT a championship team. And the same applies in the NFL. As Coach Sam says, "You never saw a jockey carry a horse over the finish line." I've never seen a great jockey win on a donkey either. So you're saying we don't know. Which is probably the right answer.
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The argument I tried to lay out is that NFL talent and Championship teams are driven by talented, hard working, teachers. Yes they are but without talent on the field, you are not a championship team. You might be good, you might be Northwestern or Stanford or Duke... you might have a good regular season and make some noise... but without the talent of an Ohio State or Alabama, you are NOT a championship team. And the same applies in the NFL. As Coach Sam says, "You never saw a jockey carry a horse over the finish line." I've never seen a great jockey win on a donkey either. Same thing. The jockey can't do it without a good horse, or one overachieving donkey.
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But the fact is, only the best coaches can get the most out of their players. To maximize the talent you have is impossible to do without the best coaches.
I've certainly seen teams win the SB that didn't have the most talent before.
Intoducing for The Cleveland Browns, Quarterback Deshawn "The Predator" Watson. He will also be the one to choose your next head coach.
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I've certainly seen teams win the SB that didn't have the most talent before. You've also seen very talented teams with horrible coaches win the Super Bowl.
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I've certainly seen teams win the SB that didn't have the most talent before. You've also seen very talented teams with horrible coaches win the Super Bowl. I'd like to request an example of this.
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I've certainly seen teams win the SB that didn't have the most talent before. You've also seen very talented teams with horrible coaches win the Super Bowl. I'd like to request an example of this. Mike McCarthy/Packers. I guess I wouldn't call McCarthy horrible, I just think he is not good (I submit last year's Packers/Seahawks NFC Championship game as evidence). Part of the problem is that we don't know how much a coach does to develop players during the week. We only see Sundays. Obviously the real answer is that it is a combination of both. But given the choice between a great coach or great talent, I'm taking the talent (if we are considering a QB great talent). Players like Rodgers, Manning, Brady, Brees, Roethlisberger, etc. are winning no matter who there coach is (Manning went 14-2 and 10-6 with Jim Caldwell as his head coach. Manning was removed from the team and they went 2-14). QBs are talent. Give me the QB.
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I would maintain that the Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan's, etc... that exists today would be the CRAP Alabama's, CRAP Ohio State's, and CRAP Michigan's that they were the minute before Saban, Meyer, and Harbaugh arrived on those campuses.
JMHO Saban, Meyer, and other college coaches move up the ranks to elite programs because they know they can get elite talent... and it takes elite talent to win championships.... Meyer could still be at Utah winning 11 games a year and doing real well. He needed better talent to compete for national championships and he knew that. Same reason Saban left Michigan State for the SEC, he knew he could get better talent. DC Everyone of those teams sucked. The fact is that the coach came in and they immediately won and won big. Saban, Meyer, Harbaugh, Quinn, Mcelwain, Lombardi, Landry, Walsh, Shula, Gibbs, even baseballs Joe Maddon, the list goes on and on and on. Winners are winners. (sorry that was weird) Harbaugh would have easily been worth two firsts from the Browns. (I realize the deal was reportedly for a third and sixth) If he had come here we would be 4-1 right now (maybe 5-0).
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I would maintain that the Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan's, etc... that exists today would be the CRAP Alabama's, CRAP Ohio State's, and CRAP Michigan's that they were the minute before Saban, Meyer, and Harbaugh arrived on those campuses.
JMHO Saban, Meyer, and other college coaches move up the ranks to elite programs because they know they can get elite talent... and it takes elite talent to win championships.... Meyer could still be at Utah winning 11 games a year and doing real well. He needed better talent to compete for national championships and he knew that. Same reason Saban left Michigan State for the SEC, he knew he could get better talent. College is a whole different animal.
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I would maintain that the Alabama, Ohio State, Michigan's, etc... that exists today would be the CRAP Alabama's, CRAP Ohio State's, and CRAP Michigan's that they were the minute before Saban, Meyer, and Harbaugh arrived on those campuses.
JMHO Saban, Meyer, and other college coaches move up the ranks to elite programs because they know they can get elite talent... and it takes elite talent to win championships.... Meyer could still be at Utah winning 11 games a year and doing real well. He needed better talent to compete for national championships and he knew that. Same reason Saban left Michigan State for the SEC, he knew he could get better talent. College is a whole different animal. What were the 49'rs record before Harbaugh got there? How long before they were in the NFC Championship Game? How long before the Super Bowl? He went to the NFC Championship twice and a Super Bowl with Kaepernick as his freakin quarterback. nuf said How long before Parcells had the Patriots in the Super Bowl? What was their record before he got there? Lombardi, Walsh, worst to first. 2 years. Jimmy Johnson, 2 or 3 years. 1-15 to Super Bowl Brady without Belichick is like Kao without Pectate Paul Brown left. Things have never been even remotely the same.
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Over the history of the league things have changed.
The era of Paul Brown and Lombardi has for the most part gone away. (Belechick is a throw back.) These guys had complete power. They assembled the roster. They hand picked their coaches. They developed their schemes. They provided the game plans. They called the plays. They made game adjustments. They made trades. Keep in mind the impact of free agency.
Today most "organizations" have a GM. He is responsible for the roster, scouting, and in some cases he chooses the head coach and coaches.
When you look at all 32 teams and all the coaches in the league. Meaning HC, OC, DC and the positions coaches and you factor in the technology available to them and their spending budget. The coaching is there. Every play from OTA's through the season is digested thoroughly.
An exceptional coach with poor talent will maybe reach 500. An average coach with talent will get into the playoffs.
It takes a good coach and talent to win championships.
And talent starts with the quarterback.
All those "great coaches" for the most part had great quarterbacks.
Parcells won with average quarterbacks but had great talent on defense.
If you don't have the talent you don't win championships. I remember Jimmy Johnson stating emphatically: " the most important member in today's football organizations is the talent evaluator."
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I'm not going to refute them all because I honestly do see the value in coaching but... Jimmy Johnson, 2 or 3 years. 1-15 to Super Bowl During this period they also drafted Aikman, Smith, Irvin and about 3 other people in the HoF... And after Johnson left, Barry Switzer went to the playoffs 3 years in a row winning a Super Bowl... Brady without Belichick is like Kao without Pectate this is hard to defend because we've never seen Brady without Belichick... Paul Brown left. Things have never been even remotely the same. Actually they were quite successful after Paul Brown left... it was when Ryan, Jim Brown, and Leroy Kelly finally left that things were never the same.
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What were the 49'rs record before Harbaugh got there? How long before they were in the NFC Championship Game? How long before the Super Bowl? He went to the NFC Championship twice and a Super Bowl with Kaepernick as his freakin quarterback. nuf said Peyton Manning went 14-2 with Jim Caldwell as his head coach. nuf said. I don't remember ever saying that having a good coach was a bad thing or that good coaches don't improve teams. I would just rather have a great QB (talent) over a great coach.
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I would suggest that when a team is coached by Paul Brown for decades, Blanton Collier can step in the next year, with Jim Brown, and expect to be successful. Collier's teams regressed from that point on. We disagree about the level the Browns were at from 65 on. We were still better than the teams in our division, the Cardinals, Giants, etc... but that was about it. Leroy Kelly and a good offensive line.
Jimmy Johnson coaches up rookies and 2nd year players and wins two Super Bowls. Switzer steps into by far the most dominant team in the league, bar none, and wins. What's proven? He inherited clearly the best team in the league.
Collier and Switzer didn't build those teams. They didn't teach them how to win -- how to play.
Just my opinion.
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[quote=CHSDawg][quote=cfrs15][quote=PitDAWG]
Mike McCarthy/Packers. I guess I wouldn't call McCarthy horrible, I just think he is not good (I submit last year's Packers/Seahawks NFC Championship game as evidence).
In spite of his mistakes, I think McCarthy is very good. Maybe not great, but very good. I believe he is very innovative, his teams execute at a high level, and for the most part are really disciplined.
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[quote=CHSDawg][quote=cfrs15][quote=PitDAWG]
Mike McCarthy/Packers. I guess I wouldn't call McCarthy horrible, I just think he is not good (I submit last year's Packers/Seahawks NFC Championship game as evidence).
In spite of his mistakes, I think McCarthy is very good. Maybe not great, but very good. I believe he is very innovative, his teams execute at a high level, and for the most part are really disciplined. How do we know that is McCarthy and not just Aaron Rodgers being the best QB we've ever seen?
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[quote=CHSDawg][quote=cfrs15][quote=PitDAWG]
Mike McCarthy/Packers. I guess I wouldn't call McCarthy horrible, I just think he is not good (I submit last year's Packers/Seahawks NFC Championship game as evidence).
In spite of his mistakes, I think McCarthy is very good. Maybe not great, but very good. I believe he is very innovative, his teams execute at a high level, and for the most part are really disciplined. How do we know that is McCarthy and not just Aaron Rodgers being the best QB we've ever seen? He made Matt Flynn look really good. More than once. He's a great coach.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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[quote=CHSDawg][quote=cfrs15][quote=PitDAWG]
Mike McCarthy/Packers. I guess I wouldn't call McCarthy horrible, I just think he is not good (I submit last year's Packers/Seahawks NFC Championship game as evidence).
In spite of his mistakes, I think McCarthy is very good. Maybe not great, but very good. I believe he is very innovative, his teams execute at a high level, and for the most part are really disciplined. How do we know that is McCarthy and not just Aaron Rodgers being the best QB we've ever seen? He made Matt Flynn look really good. More than once. He's a great coach. One game samples are probably not a good a reliable indicator of future success.
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[quote=CHSDawg][quote=cfrs15][quote=PitDAWG]
Mike McCarthy/Packers. I guess I wouldn't call McCarthy horrible, I just think he is not good (I submit last year's Packers/Seahawks NFC Championship game as evidence).
In spite of his mistakes, I think McCarthy is very good. Maybe not great, but very good. I believe he is very innovative, his teams execute at a high level, and for the most part are really disciplined. How do we know that is McCarthy and not just Aaron Rodgers being the best QB we've ever seen? He made Matt Flynn look really good. More than once. He's a great coach. One game samples are probably not a good a reliable indicator of future success. No, but when taken in consideration with the rest of his work, it is a significant aspect. It is like when people claim that Belichick only wins because he has Brady .... but then he won with Cassell having a really nice year. That season by Cassell was one of only 2 really good seasons he has had in his entire career. Belichick made Cassell that year, not the other way around. Same thing with Flynn.
Micah 6:8; He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God.
John 14:19 Jesus said: Because I live, you also will live.
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[quote=CHSDawg][quote=cfrs15][quote=PitDAWG]
Mike McCarthy/Packers. I guess I wouldn't call McCarthy horrible, I just think he is not good (I submit last year's Packers/Seahawks NFC Championship game as evidence).
In spite of his mistakes, I think McCarthy is very good. Maybe not great, but very good. I believe he is very innovative, his teams execute at a high level, and for the most part are really disciplined. How do we know that is McCarthy and not just Aaron Rodgers being the best QB we've ever seen? He made Matt Flynn look really good. More than once. He's a great coach. One game samples are probably not a good a reliable indicator of future success. No, but when taken in consideration with the rest of his work, it is a significant aspect. It is like when people claim that Belichick only wins because he has Brady .... but then he won with Cassell having a really nice year. That season by Cassell was one of only 2 really good seasons he has had in his entire career. Belichick made Cassell that year, not the other way around. Same thing with Flynn. I'm sure having Randy Moss helped a bit too.
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I'll take the McCarthy issue one step further.
Not so long ago, there was a stat that showed 50 of the 53 players on the Packer's roster were drafted by the Packers and had only played on that one team.
That indicates to me the ability to develop young players. The ability to not only develop a team that can win the Super Bowl and reach NFC Championship games, but also focus on and develop individual players. You get drafted by the Packers, you get coached up. You get drafted by the Brown's ... you better have Joe Thomas talent.
Every coach I've mentioned on this thread seems to have that same ability and MO. Even Jimmy Johnson, who should be the one case that "The Talent Believers" use to state their case, even Jimmy coached Irvin, Smith, Aikman, all those guys up. At least in my opinion.
A question for you guys, can Mike Pettine develop players? Can he develop young players? Is there evidence to support your position?
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A question for you guys, can Mike Pettine develop players? Can he develop young players? Is there evidence to support your position? A question back at you.... is it the head coaches job to develop young players? Isn't that more the job of the position coaches, the strength coaches, the coordinators? Is the head coach even in the film room with every unit when they watch film? Can he be watching offensive and defensive drills at the same time in camp?
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If I was the Head Coach:
Yes
All of us
I would make my rounds that's for sure
At the same time - no, but I'd film every second of it and watch most of it.
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A question for you guys, can Mike Pettine develop players? Can he develop young players? Is there evidence to support your position? Now to answer your question... was he a great LB coach at Baltimore or are Lewis, Suggs, Adalius Thomas, etc just great LBers? In his first year with the Jets he turned a defense that had been in the high teens low 20s every year in the NFL into the #1 ranked defense in the NFL in one offseason, then followed that up as the #3 defense the following year.. because he develops players, because he had great players, because he's a great scheme guy? Went to Buffalo and in one season took them from 27th to 12th in defense... Just realized I actually just asked more questions and never really did answer you... LMAO... well, I think he's a very good coach, he has been successful everywhere he's gone and made his units better than they were before he got there..
Last edited by DCDAWGFAN; 10/20/15 01:46 PM.
yebat' Putin
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There is a thread in the Gameday forum where (today) I somewhat defended Pettine and the mess he jumped into.
I'll gladly accept anywhere near the results you mention in the performance of his duties with the Browns.
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all I have to say is....
I'm sick of the Cleveland Browns playing like a Brown. Maybe they should try playing like a Packer. #PlayLikeaBrown.
Blocking those who argue to argue, eliminates the argument.
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all I have to say is....
I'm sick of the Cleveland Browns playing like a Brown. Maybe they should try playing like a Packer. #PlayLikeaBrown. New team motto....#PlaylikeaPacker
Tackles are tackles.
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Lets face it. The NFL is such a highly competitive League, why it has the following that it does.
You need BOTH TALENT and GOOD COACHING...pure and simple or else you will lose.
And as Wolf stated you need a Great QB. He said you need two Superstars to make a Championship team.
Superstar #1: the HEAD COACH
Superstar #2: the QB
Belicheck probably the most acclaimed superstar HC...where would his team be without Brady.
Btw in Atlanta...although I think Shanny is a good OC...the difference of that team is their Defense and in their revamped OL.
jmho
Defense wins championships. Watson play your butt off!
Go Browns!
CHRIST HAS RISEN!
GM Strong! & Stay safe everyone!
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I think Shanny might have a little something to do w/the OL playing better.
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I think Shanny might have a little something to do w/the OL playing better. This plus them actually being healthy... they had three starters out with injury last year.
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No doubt.
Atlanta's offensive and defensive lines have been an issue for quite some time.
I do think that the schemes that Quinn and Shanny have brought in are helping both units.
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Unfortunately, the Browns don't have a talented coach, just a dumb,undisciplined, non-enthusiastic loser that has created a country club type atmosphere.
We are terrible
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Both.
But talent is worse. The Browns only have 10 sacks after 6 games. Most of the front 7 was brought in by GM Farmer and none of his guys has more than one sack. The run D is dead last. Farmer added Shelton, Starks and Meder to fix that and it has not worked
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I still contend that 6 games in is too soon to judge the rooks.
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Superstar #1: the HEAD COACH
Superstar #2: the QB
Belicheck probably the most acclaimed superstar HC...where would his team be without Brady.
I was thinking yesterday, who currently (today) is a bigger "star" in the NFL than Belichick? EO I believe that Belichick had a very big part in developing Tom Brady into who he is today, and that things would have turned out different for Brady if he was drafted by 90% of the other teams. Same goes for Rodgers Same goes for Brees Same goes for ... JMHO
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Andrew Luck?
I thought there was tremendous improvement in his footwork and his passing in general when comparing his rookie year to his senior year in college. Significant, noticeable improvement.
Mariota has improved, just as I predicted.
I DVR'd Goff a couple weeks ago so I could sit back and watch. If he gets with the right team he could be a star. It all depends on the ability for his pro team to develop him. Its not easy. Goff's talent will only transfer to the NFL if he gets a talented teacher to build on what he has. If not, he will be dismissed as this or that, this or that.
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Belechick is in a league of his own.
Of course it helps when a great coach gets a great quarterback. Bill Walsh and Montana etc. etc.
There is no doubt that Brady will go down in NFL history as one of the greatest.
With that being said I think Belechick would have found someone else to win with if Brady had not become a Patriot. Would he have multiple Super Bowls? No one can answer that.
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It seems to me that these franchise guys (Brady, Rodgers, Brees, Wilson, Montana, Unitas, Starr, Bradshaw, ....) have certain things in common:
1. All of them have a huge chip on their shoulder. Everyone of them.
2. They all got hitched up with a gifted teacher as their NFL coach.
3. They, like all superstar athletes, got better and worked hard at improving each year. They never became complacent.
The dawg that said "coaching develops the talent" hit the nail on the head from my experience and in my opinion.
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Coaching versus Talent
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