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well some.... not all but some of the o-line penalties can be laid right at mccowns foot too. some of the holding calls from him holding the ball... making sure the o-line is on the same page cause some of the false starts. the run game? well when most your passes are only 5 yards through the air doesnt help the run game. but sure do make your passing stats look good.  not saying mccown is the only reason but in 3 of our 5 loss he is the main reason. jmo. 13 Offensive holding, which isn't good, but only 7 of those are on the o-line. The o-line is killing us with false starts though. Most of the rest are brain fart penalties, illegal formation, delay of game (some of those might be on McCown) 12 men on the field, etc... McCown is in the top 10 for yards per attempt right now, ahead of Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Cam Newton, Eli Manning, and that quick slant should be opening up the run because it's the LB's that have to worry about it the most. What I'm saying is McCown is the only reason we have any wins right now. He is carrying this team.
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well some.... not all but some of the o-line penalties can be laid right at mccowns foot too. some of the holding calls from him holding the ball... making sure the o-line is on the same page cause some of the false starts. the run game? well when most your passes are only 5 yards through the air doesnt help the run game. but sure do make your passing stats look good. not saying mccown is the only reason but in 3 of our 5 loss he is the main reason. jmo. 13 Offensive holding, which isn't good, but only 7 of those are on the o-line. The o-line is killing us with false starts though. Most of the rest are brain fart penalties, illegal formation, delay of game (some of those might be on McCown) 12 men on the field, etc... McCown is in the top 10 for yards per attempt right now, ahead of Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Cam Newton, Eli Manning, and that quick slant should be opening up the run because it's the LB's that have to worry about it the most. What I'm saying is McCown is the only reason we have any wins right now. He is carrying this team. 1 win. ok. and when you complete 75% of your 5 yard through the air passes it really inflates the stats. well i am done talking about it. not worth it for me.
Last edited by pblack18707; 10/29/15 09:32 PM.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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What I'm saying is McCown is the only reason we have any wins right now. He is carrying this team. What? We only have two wins and he didn't even play in one of them.
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1 win. ok. and when you complete 75% of your 5 yard through the air passes it really inflates the stats.
well i am done talking about it. not worth it for me.
He is in the top 10 in yards per attempt. You don't get that by throwing 5 yard slants only. We don't have a Darren Sproles or Reggie Bush getting yards after the catch either. We throw those 5 yard slants because we can't run for 5 yards if our life depended on it.
Last edited by DeputyDawg; 10/29/15 09:42 PM.
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1 win. ok. and when you complete 75% of your 5 yard through the air passes it really inflates the stats.
well i am done talking about it. not worth it for me.
We throw those 5 yard slants because we can't run for 5 yards if our life depended on it. think about that and think about alot of posters saying we do that in place of the run. and think what that does to a QBs stats.
being a browns fan is like taking your dog to vet every week to be put down...
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Jc
McCown doesn't play to win. He plays safe. This is why we don't win.
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and think what that does to a QBs stats.
It LOWERS your yards per attempt.
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What I'm saying is McCown is the only reason we have any wins right now. He is carrying this team. What? We only have two wins and he didn't even play in one of them. Well, by getting injured, McKown was responsible for Manziel leading the team to a win.
And into the forest I go, to lose my mind and find my soul.
- John Muir
#GMSTRONG
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jc: What a dumb*** series of posts, excluding the reports. Pre K level. "It's my ball." "No, it's my ball." Goodness!!! I said this on another thread, but man, it sure seems like most posters would rather bicker mindlessly than have an intelligent conversation.  ...says the guy who gets suspended monthly for name calling.
At DT, context and meaning are a scarecrow kicking at moving goalposts.
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YOU HOWEVER HAVE A AGENDA AND CAN'T BACK UP ANY OF THE CRAP YOU HAVE BEEN SPOUTING ALL YEAR. So do you and neither can you. Saying, "I know people" proves nothing. As I told pblack buddy I won't argue with you on that point. Most of us that have been around a while know you are somehow connected. You've never really revealed your source much to your credit.
#GMSTRONG
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Daniel Patrick Moynahan
"Alternative facts hurt us all. Think before you blindly believe."
Damanshot
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[quote=Olskool711]Can't come up with any reason to keep Tim Couch, Ty Detmer, Spergon Wynn, Doug Pederson, Kelly Holcomb, Luke McCown, Jeff Garcia , Trent Dilfer, Charlie Frye, Ken Dorsey, Bruce Gradowski, Derek Anderson, Brady Quinn, Jake Delhomme, Seneca Wallace, Colt McCoy, Thaddeus Lewis, Brandon Weeden, Brian Hoyer, Manziel, That is one scary list. Who's the best, most talented guy on that list? Couch was probably best on that list. Back then though we had a bunch of replacement draft players around him and he got destroyed before we could build enough around him. [img] https://usatftw.files.wordpress.com/2015...=563&crop=1[/img]
yebat' Putin
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Anybody gonna argue the Couch debate?
he he....
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Debating with someone who drops the names of kickers, punters, and long-snappers when discussing the talent level of a team is probably a fruitless exercise. Pontbriand curses you. Curses!!
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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You need to bring back the "fear Pontriand" signature!
#gmstrong
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You need to bring back the "fear Pontriand" signature! We need to bring back Pontbriand 
Browns is the Browns
... there goes Joe Thomas, the best there ever was in this game.
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Copied from the McCown to start gameday thread:
I'm not gonna diss on McCown
I think Johnny gives us a better chance to win.
That's why I said earlier, "I don't understand the thinking"
I wish I could watch some practices and see what it is that's keeping him on the bench.
My thought is, you give Manziel two starts, then you have a bye week to settle him down, watch a lot of film, and work on stuff identified from the two starts. Then you let him go and ...
Hey the "Pet is trying to keep his job" doesn't really wash for me. If he wants something to hide behind it makes more sense for him to throw Manziel in and if he loses there are a ton of excuses to hide behind. If he wins, nobody is talking about Pet not getting another year. Its a win - win. That's why I don't get it. Don't get it anymore, at this particular time.
Make the switch. Give McCown a clipboard, let him rest his shoulder, and let him start doing what we are paying him 5 million to do - support the building of a quarterback.
Starting McCown to avoid losing his job...
No
"Johnny's not ready!" At this rate, he's never gonna be ready. Maybe he's going ADHD/Bipolar from not being on the field. Don't care if he's not ready, he's a gamer and not a practice player anyway.
He's not magically gonna become the next Brett Favre because he sat during the month of November 2015. If its ever gonna happen its gonna happen because of what he learns when he's out on the field, playing the game.
Throw him out there. There's nothing to lose.
Barry Bonds Check
Roger Clemens Check
Mark McGuire Check
Lance Armstrong Check
71-79 Steelers Taboo
(Lets pretend it didn't happen.)
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If Manziel comes in and plays lights out, it will be the death knell for Pettine for me.
Why? Why wouldn't the narrative be... Look at the masterful job Mike Pettine did in weathering the Johnny Football storm. He held him out, protected him, allowed him to fall, allowed him time to dust himself off, he wasn't ready, but he built him up, and presto! Why wouldn't we be celebrating Pettine as a sports psychology, mature, man managing genius?
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The way you laid it out, sounds like a good plot for the movie adaptation... 
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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When the game is on the line, winners find a way to win and losers find a way to lose and most of our loses have been at the end of the game and our QB made a really stupid decision with the football. McCown has played well but he isnt a QB you want with the ball to finish things.
Stare down the safety and then throw it right to him in Oakland. I am about to get hit, let me throw it up for grabs here in overtime against the Broncos.
I think not having a guy that will make plays to finish a team is one of the top items holding this team back. Winners inspire.
Besides, with Johnny on the pines, I dont get to read your brilliant breakdown of why those 55 yard bombs that hit receivers in the hands were really bad plays by our QB. Yeah, I'm sure Johnny delivers those throws to Benji or Gabriel differently, so that they don't fumble them and kill drives. Mourg, please. You know you're down to no arguments when the talk gets to "he's a winner", the ultimate Tim Tebow argument. And at this point, I'm with you, give Johnny the ball, so that you guys finally shut up about this bum and we can discuss the real problems of this team again. You say that playing Johnny isn't going to have an effect and cause players who aren't playing well to step up. You mention RB's and FB's. What is your response to the poster who specified that the stats show our running game seems to be dramatically improved when he's in there? Seems to make sense that if the back seven have to start a step back to guard against throws over the top that it will open space for OL to get out, and running backs to get in to.
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The way you laid it out, sounds like a good plot for the movie adaptation... Draft Day 2 Coming April to a theater near you. 
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Copied from the McCown to start gameday thread:
I'm not gonna diss on McCown
I think Johnny gives us a better chance to win.
That's why I said earlier, "I don't understand the thinking"
I wish I could watch some practices and see what it is that's keeping him on the bench.
My thought is, you give Manziel two starts, then you have a bye week to settle him down, watch a lot of film, and work on stuff identified from the two starts. Then you let him go and ...
Hey the "Pet is trying to keep his job" doesn't really wash for me. If he wants something to hide behind it makes more sense for him to throw Manziel in and if he loses there are a ton of excuses to hide behind. If he wins, nobody is talking about Pet not getting another year. Its a win - win. That's why I don't get it. Don't get it anymore, at this particular time.
Make the switch. Give McCown a clipboard, let him rest his shoulder, and let him start doing what we are paying him 5 million to do - support the building of a quarterback.
Starting McCown to avoid losing his job...
No
"Johnny's not ready!" At this rate, he's never gonna be ready. Maybe he's going ADHD/Bipolar from not being on the field. Don't care if he's not ready, he's a gamer and not a practice player anyway.
He's not magically gonna become the next Brett Favre because he sat during the month of November 2015. If its ever gonna happen its gonna happen because of what he learns when he's out on the field, playing the game.
Throw him out there. There's nothing to lose.
And he's not going to magically become a competent NFL quarterback because he gets into a game. This game is won or lost during the week, it's not like back in the day when you could go out partying all week, have a couple drinks and a cigar in the locker room before the game and then go out and kick ass on Sunday. It just doesn't work like that and he's clearly not showing anything in practice and certainly hasn't in the games he's played to warrant the opportunity. Having said that, yes Coach, please start him so you'll have the proof you need that he's a bust and we can move on.
Last in, first out, the sign of a true champion!![[Linked Image from i301.photobucket.com]](http://i301.photobucket.com/albums/nn59/Stetson1376/c8f5fed9-fc01-4b87-bda3-b2b53f0b16cb_zpse708e05e.jpg)
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I actually enjoyed the movie. Even my wife did, and she's not a football fan...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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Start Austin Davis for the win! We have to see what we have in this guy and Manziel has already had some playing time. I'm 100% behind continuing to start McCown but if he's hurt and we HAVE to go with someone else, this right here is an idea I can get behind! 
![[Linked Image]](http://www.dawgtalkers.net/uploads/GraffZ06/browns_factory_sig.jpg) Fear us, for we are the BROWNS, led by the mighty BM! Only in Cleveland.
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And he's not going to magically become a competent NFL quarterback because he gets into a game. This game is won or lost during the week, it's not like back in the day when you could go out partying all week, have a couple drinks and a cigar in the locker room before the game and then go out and kick ass on Sunday. It just doesn't work like that and he's clearly not showing anything in practice and certainly hasn't in the games he's played to warrant the opportunity.
Having said that, yes Coach, please start him so you'll have the proof you need that he's a bust and we can move on.
So you're saying that there isn't any chance that Manziel can be an impact player?
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I actually think there's a chance.
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Of Pet, Farmer, and Manziel, I think many on here would say the best odds of success rests with Manziel.
The problem is Johnny's odds keep going backward rather than forward.
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Its starting to look like a Pet vs Johnny thing could develop. Its going to have to eventually, unless Pet backs off and gets him more involved.
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I actually enjoyed the movie. Even my wife did, and she's not a football fan... Well yeah, mainly because there was a ton of that movie that was romance between Costner and that other girl so not totally shocking a female would like it too. I personally thought the movie was horrible. The problem is Johnny's odds keep going backward rather than forward. Yeah, I must agree. Each step backwards just drains more hope/faith.
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I personally thought the movie was horrible.
Of course it was hokey! But we were winners... 
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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I personally thought the movie was horrible.
Of course it was hokey! But we were winners... Hokey, inaccurate, impossible, . . . (And I am not just talking about us being "winners.")
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It's really simple, McCown has played as well as anyone could expect him to play, actually exceeding all expectations. However, he seems to come up short in the "doing whatever it takes to win" category.
Now I'm not saying Johnny will do any better, but he is a proven get it done winner at the college level, we invested heavily in him draft wise, and IF I have to watch them lose, I'd rather Johnny be getting the experience. I'm more than happy with McCown backing him up.
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I personally thought the movie was horrible.
Of course it was hokey! But we were winners... Hokey, inaccurate, impossible, . . . (And I am not just talking about us being "winners.") Someday, someday just when it seems that all hope is exhausted...
When the debate is lost, slander becomes the tool of the losers...Socrates
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The coaching staff had the perfect opportunity to play Manziel. The starting QB was hurt, the season is pretty much over, and we were coming off an ugly loss in which McCown played less than stellar.
Instead they are choosing to stick with McCown. This indicates that the coaches don't trust Manziel (which is weird because he is still QB2 on gameday with no other active QB), are trying to change the culture of the team by saying, "It doesn't matter where we are at, we are starting the player that gives us the best chance to win," or they think there is still a chance we can compete for a playoff spot this season.
I understand what is going on. I do not know if I agree with it, but I definitely understand it.
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QB's get bad habits when you put them in when they aren't ready.
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The coaching staff had the perfect opportunity to play Manziel. The starting QB was hurt, the season is pretty much over, and we were coming off an ugly loss in which McCown played less than stellar.
Instead they are choosing to stick with McCown. This indicates that the coaches don't trust Manziel (which is weird because he is still QB2 on gameday with no other active QB), are trying to change the culture of the team by saying, "It doesn't matter where we are at, we are starting the player that gives us the best chance to win," or they think there is still a chance we can compete for a playoff spot this season.
I understand what is going on. I do not know if I agree with it, but I definitely understand it. The new question is, does Pettine's issue with Manziel cause him to ruin any chance he has in the future to ever work successfully with him?
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Otto could be right. Farmer may have Haslem's ear and Pettine could be on the chopping block. The failure to get Manziel on the field would be the card he plays. If Pettine says he wasn't ready, Farmer responds, how many years is it going to take?
Many people feel Manziel was set up for failure last year. Pettine and Shanahan both. Obviously, he ended up behaving in ways that let them off the hook. Not sure if I buy it, but... its out there.
Theres a fine line between holding a young player back when they're ready and mishandling him entirely. Most coaches dred the thought of screwing up a young talented guy. Misjudging him, making a bad technical skill assessment, just being a bad fit. Good coaches have thought about this and worked through it.
Do you think that Mike Pettine has mega issues with Johnny Manziel and now its holding him back? Him being Pettine?
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Having said that, yes Coach, please start him so you'll have the proof you need that he's a bust and we can move on. Wow! That is so lame! You are actually rooting against one of our players.
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If Pettine says he wasn't ready, Farmer responds, how many years is it going to take?
Are you just making crap up or do you have a link? 
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Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Start Manziel thread
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