DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum Continuity...take three..just what was "the Steelers Way"?

If Browns blow tough 3-game stretch, could heads roll after season? 'This is a big juncture' says Mike Pettine



By Mary Kay Cabot, Cleveland.com
Follow on Twitter
on October 31, 2015 at 7:51 PM, updated November 01, 2015 at 7:22 AM


CLEVELAND, Ohio -- The 2-5 Browns have reached a pivotal point in their season, and if they stumble through this grueling stretch, will Browns owner Jimmy Haslam renege on his training camp promise not to blow things up?

It's hard to believe he won't consider at least some big changes if the Browns lose their next three games to land at 2-8 heading into the bye week.

"We've battled in our games,'' said coach Mike Pettine. "You don't see our guys quitting, and that's a positive sign, but still we're looking for the result to win. That's what this business – as I've said all along – it's a bottom line business.

"You're either passing or you're failing. This is a big juncture for us. We're focused on Arizona but also know what immediately sits on the other side, essentially two games in five days."

After Sunday's game against the 5-2 Cardinals, the Browns travel to Cincinnati Thursday night to face the 6-0 Bengals on NFL Network. That's two games in five days against clubs with a combined 11-2 record. After that, they head to Pittsburgh to face the 3-3 Steelers, who are getting Ben Roethlisberger back this week.

That's a 15-5 mark for their next three opponents. Considering that the Browns have gone 2-5 against foes with a combined record of 20-24, the outlook looks bleak unless the Browns find a way to right the ship.

"Internally, you can see positives, but nobody on the outside wants to see 'Hey, we lost but these are the positives that we're taking from it,''' said Pettine. "We all know what we're getting paid for and that's to win football games."

In addition to the upcoming trio of stellar foes, the Browns play four of their next five in the division: at Cincinnati and Pittsburgh and then home against the Ravens and Bengals. The 1-6 Ravens were banged up when they lost to the Browns in week five and will be a better football team when they come to town Nov. 30th.

"We're coming up on a lot of division games,'' said safety Tashaun Gipson, who returns Sunday after missing three games with a sprained ankle. "Specifically right now, every game is counting for two now in our eyes, so we know how important it is.''

Like everyone else on the team, Gipson is surprised that the Browns are 2-5 after the "easy'' part of their schedule. The final eight games feature five in the AFC North.

"In these next two weeks, we can turn this thing around, head with some momentum into Pittsburgh game and who knows what can happen from there?'' said Gipson. "We definitely have time. I don't think guys in this locker room are holding their head down low.''

Cornerback Joe Haden, who's missed three of the last four games with injuries -- a concussion, broken finger and rib contusion -- believes the Browns can salvage the season.

"It's so easy,'' said Haden. "It's just a play or two going in our favor instead of bouncing the ball the other way, and I think we still have the people in here, people on the team (to do it).

"We still have a lot of division games ahead of us. We still have everything we want in front of us, so I think our attitude with the team is still: 'We've got to go out there. We have to win the next game.'''

Haslam based his "status quo'' promise on the fact the Browns improved from 4-12 in his first full year to 7-9 last season. But if the team regresses?

"I can assure you nobody in this building is happy winning seven games, but at the same time, we are realistic that it takes time to build a good football team,'' he said in August.

He also made his declaration when the Browns were still optimistic that 2014 first round picks Johnny Manziel and Justin Gilbert would live up to their draft status. Instead, neither is starting midway through the season, and both have been involved in embarassing off-the-field incidents.

Gilbert isn't playing on defense at all and if he can't get significant playing time by the end of the year, he's well on his way to being a bust. The Browns still believe Manziel can play, but he's currently under NFL review for a possible domestic incident.

Even if Manziel escapes discipline, he admitted to drinking, which can't be good for a player who spent 10 weeks in an addiction treatment center in the offseason. ESPN analyst Cris Carter also said on Mike and Mike recently that Manziel's been drinking for awhile.

It's unlikely, then, that the Browns will be willing to turn the team over anytime soon to a player who's still obviously battling some of his demons -- meaning they'll likely have to be on the lookout for another quarterback in the draft.

When Haslam was flush with optimism, he was expecting his No. 12 overall pick Danny Shelton to make a huge impact on the run defense. Instead, the Browns are 32nd in the NFL against the run -- same as last season. Overall, the defense is 28th, and 23rd in sacks.

What's more, their No. 19 overall pick, Cam Erving, has yet to beat out John Greco or anyone else on the offensive line. Perhaps Erving will be good, but a first-rounder sitting as a rookie is usually not a good sign.

"The first year we were here, the draft was not what we wanted,'' Haslam said in August. "The second year was better, and a lot depends on how the two first rounders do, right? If they turn out to be really good players, then we had a tremendous draft two years ago. If one of them makes it, we had a good draft; if neither of them make it; it's ok or just so-so.

"This past year we had a really good draft. We added 12 players, two of them might be redshirts, and we have 11 picks this coming year. If you have that many picks and you pick good talent and can coach them, over a period of time we're going to be successful."

Problem is, the one receiver the Browns drafted this year -- fourth-rounder Vince Mayle -- failed to make the roster and was recently waived by the Cowboys. The other big acquisition at receiver, Dwayne Bowe, has been inactive the past three games and has played only 12 snaps this season despite his two-year free agent contract with $9 million guaranteed. He'll likely be active against the Cardinals, but the season is getting away from him.

Thanks to quarterback Josh McCown, the Browns have been in every game this season despite marginal talent at some positions.

If Haslam determines that the coaches have too little to work with, perhaps he'll beef up or shake up the personnel department and keep the coaching staff intact. At the very least, he'll take a long hard look at general manager Ray Farmer and his track record over the past two years, especially with the first-round picks.

In the meantime, Pettine has asked his players and coaches to dig deep and do more to turn the season around.

"In the team meeting (Monday), we talked about where we are and what adversity does for you,'' he said. "It's easy to exist in this profession when things are going well. When things aren't, you truly find out who you are – who is mentally tough, who cares about this team, who is willing to step up.

"Everybody was challenged to take a personal inventory – where they are, what are they doing well and what are they not doing well and how do we change it?''

If they don't, someone else might.

http://www.cleveland.com/browns/index.ssf/2015/10/if_browns_falter_during_tough.html

Haslam is in a huge pickle.

The Browns are likely to finish at 2-14.

He has to decide if Pettine and Farmer have showed enough to get more time. He has to decide if they have a plan that is worth keeping them around for.

We, as fans, aren't privy to the inner workings of the team, but as outside observers looking in I have two questions:

--What is the plan?
--Is that plan worth keeping these guys around?

In the offseason I said if Haslam started over I'd be done with this team. I think I'm already done so I've come around to not caring either way if they stay or go. I'm fine with keeping them, I'm fine with getting rid of them, I'm fine with something in between. I'm on the verge of finding something better to do with my Sundays so I'll only be watching from a distance anyway. Because the biggest disappointment to me is I can't answer the second question above because I don't know the answer to the first question.

rish...honestly, you do not know what the Steelers Way was and still is?

I'm doing your homework for you..below is an excerpt from a story from 2012, when Haslam was approved as owner of the Browns.


New owner Jimmy Haslam wants to model Browns after Steelers

By Albert Breer
NFL Media reporter
Published: Oct. 17, 2012 at 02:28 p.m.Updated: Oct. 17, 2012 at 05:08 p.m


Haslam acknowledged that, indeed, his model for building theBrowns, at least initially, will be based largely on what he learned over the past three years working with the Rooney family while holding a 12.5 percent stake in Cleveland's AFC North rival.


Haslam, like Dan and Art Rooney, believes in long-term stability and continuity. As he evaluates the club, anyone he chooses to keep will be kept with more than the immediate future in mind. So guys like Shurmur and Heckert, aside from just winning, will have to show the new boss how they fit into the franchise's vision for the next decade.

Haslam is quick to note, too, that he isn't just cribbing from Pittsburgh on that. His chief officers in his lucrative truck-stop business have been with the company for 27, 24 and 16 years.

"That's the way our company has always looked at it," he said. "You get the right people in place and let them do their jobs."

And that explains why he believes so deeply in what he saw in Pittsburgh, where the Steelers have had just three coaches since the late 1960s. TheBrowns have had five since 1999, to go with four different general managers.

"It was great training being there," Haslam said. "They do it with character and intelligence. They run that organization the right way. They build through the draft. They're patient. It's just the right way to do it. It was a tremendous opportunity to be with them."
link

mac, I started both of the earlier "Continuity" threads. My intent was to honor all opinions rather than shoving one particular thought down poster's throats. It would have been had you waited to post your opinion on the next "Continuity" thread.

Actions speak louder than words.

The only thing that could have saved Farmer's job would have been good play on the field with the roster he assembled. Primarily, Gilbert needed to step up and show that he was starter material, Bowe needed to play like a true #1 on the outside instead of showing up as the washed up schlub he was two years ago here simply to collect a check, Erving needed to push for a starting role, and Shelton needed to light it up on the inside. None of those things have happened. He's likely done, having shown that he is completely inept in addition to being so ridiculously egotistical that he can't even recognize his ineptitude.

Beyond that, the team is a joke, having reverted back to the days when talent was questionable, play was inept, and execution was nonexistent. Pettine may get another year, but that's doubtful too. It all depends on whether he can get this team of clownish, perennial LOSERS to win a couple games. Personally, I don't think that will happen. So he's probably gone too. Continuity? Oh, this team is built on continuity. It's the same crap-fest, ridiculous, bottom of the barrel embarrassment it has always been. That's where the consistency lies.

JMHO

LOL............his team president, GM, his HC, OC, DC, and most of the assistants were fired after one year.

Yep, that sounds like the "Steeler way."

Right. But this just nullifies the premise of your entire argument.

that does raise a few questions though - and a good post BTW...I'm just not sure how much of it applies in the world of football today.



I get the gist of what you are saying and on the surface, it looks right - but it does raise some issues.

Do you think with Free Agency, the constant coaching turnovers allowing OC / DC to move around and vie for HC spots, and salary caps, is the Steelers Model even viable in the current NFL? If not, then the plan may be flawed from the start.

I don't think quick results are necessarily what I expect - but just faith that there is a plan.

In your learning scenario, which I struggle with as a concept at the NFL level, you are making the case that they may never get up to speed -sort of like a First round draft pick. How do you know when it is not working?

every bad draft is a 2-3 year sear setback at least. Josh cannot be the answer beyond next year - and if JM is not the answer next year, we don't renew his contract after that. Therefore, we either bring in a great FA QB or we are rolling the dice on another drafted QB. So, it could be that we draft our franchise QB next year and we give him 2 years to gel - therefore we are looking at 2018 before we start our run to greatness.

In the current NFL - I say 5 years is enough time to determine if you have the right folks. that means 2018 season is where we draw the line in the ground - which also makes next year's draft a key point in the Brown's future with the group.

Now I thought with our 'D' play last year, we had one big box checked and would have agreed with you. Now, we don't seem to have a unit that is locked down, making too many holes to fill and new player adds to create a cohesive team. We can't overhaul the D, the O-Line, and skill positions all in the next 3 years - or can we?

All I'm saying is this goes against your original premise....building like the Steelers. No one is saying it is written that Haslem can't make changes. But the Steelers didn't after one year. The two don't match up is all.

You want to use Noll as an example? Noll showed improvement. He went from 1 win to 5 wins to 6 wins to 11 wins. Improvement.

The Browns have gone from 7 wins to 2 wins. How is that moving in the right direction?

The season is over?!?!?!

Do you think we'll get to 7 wins?

I don't think we'll get to 3.

NFL teams luck into victories all the time. I would say we win at least two more.

Mac, I believe Pettine could POSSIBLY have the intelligence and ability to grow into the job, but I don't think the record at the end of the season will allow Haslem to keep him.

Also, let's face it, Pettine has a long way to go. The soft, lackluster training camp, the complete lack of team discipline coupled with the extraordinary number of penalties, the bonehead decisions like not kicking the field goal against the Broncos, repetitive, poor clock management, and the inept defense, (which he is supposed to be and expert at,) all fall right at his feet. Those are big, freakin' problems. So who knows whether he can "outgrow" them, or whether they are ingrained as his coaching make-up.

I am torn there are things I like about farmer and pet and there are red flags and alarms going off.

I loved this years draft and feel it is really gonna be a strong one when we look back in another year or two. Then he brings in guys like hartline, starks and now turbin. These were 3 guys that I really believe were tremendously undervalued.

Bowe's contract was bad but I could look over that but from what i saw in Mini camps the guy looked horrible and couldnt make a cut and the fact he is still on the roster milking the money cow sets a tone for a team that I see on the field.

I do believe manziel and also Gilbert will turn things around. Gilbert isnt very smart and it takes time to learn the NFL game. He may never get it but I never thought he would be good right away. Manziel I felt would struggle year one with the spread system in his blood but we wuld see steady growth similar to what we have seen with Tannehill in Miami. West was a head case and Manziel and Gilbert have had the same brain issues as well.

I actually like the fact Farmer wants to watch film with the coaches so he gains a better understanding of what the players are doing and how they are progressing.

I wouldnt be upset if farmer was fired or was given another year or two to be honest.

AS for pet, I thought he put together a good O staff this year. I feel however that there is a serious on the field discipline problem on both sides of the ball and those things are coaching.

I like Pet, I want him to be successful. Clock management wasnt an issue last year. he appears clueless this year on time management. Replay decisions have actually cost us games by his not challenging calls that should have been challenged.

I watch his defense, and i see guys abandoning their lanes for no reason. I see guys lose contain for and crash into a pile for no reason. I honestly feel this is the worst coaching that i have seen since Romeo, who was an idiot.


Pet starting McCown this week doesnt help him either lol. I just dont know if there is a plan going forward. We just keep doing the same thing and expecting things to change. Lets try to control things, play not to lose and lose every damn week. Great plan.

Plus my man EJ Bibbs should be playing if for no other reason than his ability to find a way to score. Get the guy in there in the redzone.

I guess at the end of the day. I will understand if Haslam cleans house and wont have any issue at all with it but I will also understand if he decides to give them another year. I generally try to see both sides of the fence but this one really does have me a bit divided.

Anyway if it does happen, I will go ahead and predict that it will be Nick Saban that will have full control of the roster.

Things have not changed since 1969. . .

Marvin Lewis also went .500 for both seasons he started in Cincy, which was huge as they were like us (usually winning 2-4 games a year...straight to winning 16 games in 2 years) I don't want Pettine fired as we have noone to replace him with...Hopefully he imrpoves as the season carries, but he's coaching poorly to say the least...However I wouldn't mind Farmer being shown the door tomorrow.

What if you pick the wrong coach?

Also, one could argue Mike Brown didn't fire Marvin Lewis because he didn't want to pay two coaches.

Actually it took Lewis 3 yrs to turn it around. That 3rd year was the year Palmer had his knee destroyed.some say that was a Super Bowl team.
Point being their is no progress under the Farmer Pettine regime unlike Lewis yrs in Cincy

Its Pet's defense. Pet is humping this puppy Oneil is just holding the tail.

Is anyone else seeing the contradictions being made in mac's arguments? Sheesh.

Question: (and I have no idea about anything inside the team, so I am just asking on supposition)

What if some veterans on the team do not like Pettine, and are dogging it to make sure that he doesn't come back. I mean, the team has both a long history and a recent history of just dumping head coaches at the 1st sign of adversity. Could certain elements on the team not like the coach, and have decided that they will just "get rid of him" by the way they play?

It was shocking when the reports came out today that the Browns would consider trading certain veterans if the right offer came along, but it makes sense in a way too. Pettine has talked about changing the mentality in the building, and maybe some of the players we hold up as icons are part of the problem. It is hard to know what goes on inside that building. All I know is that we had 2 units that were expected to be great this year, the OL and secondary ... and neither has even been average on an overall basis.

I don't know what to think.

Just had this thought. Jim Mora's name is going to be thrown around this off-season as a possible head coach. If the team that hires him needs a QB, then Brett Hundley would make a ton of sense.

I hope that team is not us.

I would think in order for that to be the case that something pretty big would have had to happen, something Pet did that would REALLy piss off a lot of them. I doubt that not keeping Lenz on the roster would have been it.

But if this were the case, wouldn't they be cutting off their nose to spite their face? I mean, if Pet and the rest go, their job security isn't as secure. New FO often leads to rosters...

I don't know what it is this year.

[quote]For those who believe that Haslam should fire them all and start over again, would that move be an example of "the Steelers Way"? After all, Haslam was a minority owner in the Steelers from 2008 to 2012, so no doubt he knows about their history.

Supposedly, to turn the Browns into a winning franchise, Haslam is trying follow a formula the Steelers used to turn their franchise into a winning franchise, dating back to 1969.[quote]




Mac, I am in no way trying to hijack your thread or thoughts. My response is simply a point of view towards Jimmy and how things have panned out since his purchase.

When Jimmy started dealing with Jr. he could have brought any football guy who was available in. He chose Banner (ends up being a big mistake).

Banner's philosophy was not in the Steeler tradition. We heard "Steeler" this and that because of Jimmy's past ownership, but we ended up with something far less than low-grade, philly, sling crap against the wall.

Why Banner?

Banner promises big name coaches and hooks none.

Every Brown's fan on the planet lets the world know that Lombardi will not be acceptable to us. So, they pull a Washington D.C. tactic on us, make us wait, slip him through the back door, lie about his title, etc...

They hired Chud (who doesn't seem in the tough defensive, serious, Steeler coach mold), but they get two good, experienced coordinators. People seemed to have some hope.

Chud took his foot off the pedal too soon, became 'buddy boy' and it allowed Lombanner to make their annual "we can get Gase, Mcdaniels, and even a "mystery" candidate" play. They sold Jimmy on their ability to hook a big fish again.

Jimmy made a huge mistake and trusted them.

Blew up in our faces, it did.

The universe rallies behind Chud, his 14 million severance, and the unfairness of it all. The Brown's are on full blown nuclear meltdown.

Gase and McNuggets back out in order to stay assistants.

The mystery candidate's wife nixes the move to Cleveland.

The dolphins make a move for Farmer (which really screws us)

Meltdown intensifies, rather than subsides.

Lombanner and Jimmy have created an unimaginable disaster. The one positive is that Jimmy can get rid of Lombanner and most everybody will celebrate (except all of Lombardi's cronies at The rich eisen network).

Jimmy has bought in, and is trying to sell, the having the "hot, new" GM candidate.

Now, who's the coach?

Dan Quinn seems to be the guy, but he won't think about it or commit until after the Super Bowl. We don't know if Quinn notified the Brown's that he too, would rather remain an assistant than coach the Cleveland Browns.

This is where, in my opinion, the one resemblance to the Steelers comes into play. The defensive coordinator of the Bills sees his opportunity, he's a tough no-nonsense shaved head guy from Pennsylvaina, he comes in, tells Jimmy everything he wants to hear, and nails the interview.

The "Steeler Continuity" thing is now reality. Jimmy has the new philosophy, culture, mission statement, whatever. Something resembling the Steeler Way can now commence.

Now there's a big problem. There appears to be a difference in the performance of duties when contrasting the Steelers front office, personnel, and coaching from ours.

They develop young players, and do it well. They had legendary, experienced coaches guiding their new head coaches. When Tomlin makes stupid mistakes he doesn't seem to repeat them. They seem to nip bad PR in the bud. With the exception of their QB raping chicks, they seem to squelch most disasters in a day or two.

Their fans are very committed to the cause. They hold everybody to a high standard. (Its killing me to write this, but I've seen it. Its true.) Whereas we attack each other, and argue when there are obvious problems, they don't tolerate them. If Tomlin is screwing the pooch, they let him know. The Browns Way? The Paul Brown era was one of innovation and dominance. The Kardiac Kids era was one of exciting offense, bend but don't break defense, and heart. The Marty era was one of great running backs setting up a lethal passing attack, with some stars on defense. Since 99 none of those qualities can be attributed to our franchise.

What's the Plan? In the words of my wife "CONTINUITY?" "Continuity for what?")

Are we gonna trade Joe Thomas, Mack, Mingo so Farmer can have another multiple first round draft? In the words of Dr. Phil "how's that workin for ya?"

Is Mike Pettine doing a good job of getting the best out of his coordinators? How long does his DAWGTALKERS honeymoon period last? Is he developing young players? Has he managed the first round quarterback we drafted as well as other coaches would have handled him? Why did Josh Gordon look as lost as Johnny does, when he played last year? Was he prepared? The offensive line (a dawg last week cited the Pats, Packers, and Steelers as having the worst offensive lines in the league yet they still win, well the Pats, Packers and Steelers have a lot cleaner pockets and running holes than we do). Lets talk defense. No, lets not.

Somebody tell me what the plan is.

It shook him up so much he became Yoda.

Your funny.

Something about the Barney Fife picture adds to it.

I'm pretty much AGAINST the constant turnover, as we've pretty much proven it doesn't do anything to generate instant success, and all it really does is keep GOOD coaches from wanting to come here.

However, I would be okay with "change" under one circumstance. We actually try to keep the continuity of the offense and defense.

Too often, it seems like when we fire or lose a coordinator or a head coach, the guy we bring in to replace him has a completely different idea of what kind of system they want to run. If we have a 4-3 defense, they want to switch it to a 3-4, etc, etc. Which usually leads to them blowing out 3/4ths of the roster and bringing in "their own guys". That leads us to have a roster full of guys that don't know what's going on, a bunch of veterans that aren't playing to their strengths, and a crop of rookies that can't just sit there and actually get used to one simple system.

Just ONCE, I'd love to bring in a new head coach that says something like, "Well, this team has been running a 3/4 D and a zone-run blocking scheme. We're going to stick with that and work with what the players are used to. We're going to add to it and work with what we already have in place."

I few months ago, I posted a breakdown of every QB/HC/OC we've had in the last 15 years. We've never had the same combination of the three for more than 2 years. And then people wonder why the offense has never looked like it was on the same page.

Honest question for those who think that Pettine should keep his job, why? Have you thought that this team looks better in any single way from last year or two years ago? This team should honestly be in discussion for the WC, but we're on the outside looking in again.

I think our overall talent is near the very bottom of the league. Our talent matches our record.

You can't win w/inferior talent.