DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Pure Football Forum How many wins does Mike Pettine need to keep his job?

I was pondering this question today. I also had a little bit of free time on my hands, so I decided to do a little research. I looked at every every franchise since 1999 (I chose 1999 for obvious reasons). Four wins seems to be the magical number. Win four or less and you are probably fired. Win five or more and you will probably get another shot.

After looking through all these teams, names, and numbers I thought a few things:

1. The Bengals are the exception, not the rule.
2. Jeff Fisher coached the Titans starting in 1994?
3. None of these guys who got fired went on to do great things elsewhere (as head coaches).
4. The teams that have great continuity (Patriots, Steelers, Eagles, Giants, etc.) have it because they win, none of them had very low points. If they did the coach was fired.
5. A couple names popped up multiple times for different teams; Romeo Crennel and Herm Edwards.
6. Mangini must be a real douche. He was pretty successful for the Jets and was still fired.

Arizona Cardinals-

2001 - Vince Tobin fired midseason (team ended up going 3-13)
2003 - Dave McGinnis, fired

Atlanta Falcons-

2000 - Dan Reeves, not fired (7-9, 9-6-1 after that)
2013 - Mike Smith, not fired (6-10 the following year, then fired)

Baltimore Ravens - never won four games or less since 1999

Buffalo Bills-

2001 - Gregg Williams, not fired (first year as head coach, went 14-28 after that, then fired)
2010 - Chan Gailey, not fired (first year as head coach, went 12-20 after that, then fired)

Carolina Panthers-

2001 - George Seifert, fired (1-15)
2010 - John Fox, fired (2-14)

Chicago Bears-

2002 - Dick Jauron, not fired (7-9 the next season, fired)

Cincinnati Bengals-

1999 - Bruce Coslet, not fired (fired midseason the next year)
2000 - Dick LeBeau 4-12, not fired (went 8-24 after that)
2008 - Marvin Lewis, not fired
2010 - Marvin Lewis, not fired

Cleveland Browns:

1999 - Chris Palmer, not fired (first season as head coach, 3-13 the next season, fired)
2004 - Butch Davis, fired midseason (team finished 4-12)
2006 - Romeo Crennel, not fired (went 14-16 after that)
2011 - Pat Shurmur, not fired (first season as coach, 5-11 the next season, then fired)
2013 - Rob Chudzinksi, fired (only one year as coach)

Dallas Cowboys - have never won four games or less since 1999

Denver Broncos:

2010 - Josh McDaniels, fired midseason (team finished 4-12)

Detroit Lions:

2001 - Marty Mornhinweg, not fired (went 3-13 the next season, fired)
2006 - Rod Marinelli, not fired (first season as head coach)
2008 - Rod Marinelli, fired (0-16 season)
2009 - Jim Schwartz, not fired (first season as head coach),
2013 - Jim Schwartz, not fired (fired the following season after going 7-9)

Green Bay Packers:

2005 - Mike Sherman, fired (4-12)

Houston Texans:

2002 - Dom Capers, not fired (first year of the franchise)
2005 - Dom Capers, fired

Indianapolis Colts:

2011 - Jim Caldwell, fired

Jacksonville Jaguars:

2012 - Mike Mularkey, fired (only one year as head coach)
2013 - Gus Bradley, not fired
2014 - Gus Bradley, not fired (currently 2-6)

Kansas City Chiefs:

2007 - Herm Edwards, not fired
2008 - Herm Edwards, fired
2009 - Todd Haley, not fired (first year as head coach, went 15-14 from that point on, was fired midseason)
2012 - Romeo Crennel, fired (was the interim coach held over from the previous season)

Miami Dolphins:

2004 - Dave Wanstache Wannstedt, fired (fired midseason, team finished 4-12)
2007 - Cam Cameron, fired (first year as head coach)

Minnesota Vikings:

2011 - Leslie Frazier, not fired (went 15-16-1, then fired)

New England Patriots - Have not won four or less games since 1999

New Orleans Saints:

1999 - Mike Ditka, fired
2005 - Jim Haslett, fired

New York Giants:

2003 - Jim Fassel, fired

New York Jets:

2005 - Herm Edwards, fired
2007 - Eric Mangini, not fired (went 9-7 the next season and then fired)
2014 - Rex Ryan, fired

Oakland Raiders:

2003 - Bill Callahan, fired
2005 - Norv Turner, fired
2006 - Art Shell, fired
2007 - Lane Kiffin, not fired
2008 - Lane Kiffin, fired (fired midseason, team finished 4-12)
2012 - Dennis Allen, not fired
2013 - Dennis Allen, not fired
2014 - Dennis Allen, fired (fired midseason, team finished 3-13)

Philadelphia Eagles:

2012 - Andy Reid, fired

Pittsburgh Steelers - Have not won four games or less since 1999

San Diego Chargers:

2000 - Mike Riley, not fired (fired following the next season after going 5-11)
2003 - Marty Schottenheimer, not fired (was very successful following this going 35-13, then was fired)

San Francisco 49ers:

1999 - Steve Mariucci, not fired
2004 - Dennis Erickson, fired
2005 - Mike Nolan, not fired (first year as head coach)

Seattle Seahawks:

2008 - Mike Holmgren, fired

St Louis Rams:

2007 - Scott Linehan, not fired
2008 - Scott Linehan, fired (fired midseason, team finished 2-14)
2009 - Steve Spagnuolo, not fired
2011 - Steve Spagnuolo, fired

Tampa Bay Buccaneers:

2006 - Jon Gruden, not fired
2011 - Raheem Morris, fired
2013 - Greg Schiano, fired

Tennessee Titans:

2005 - Jeff Fisher, not fired (went on to coach five more seasons with mixed success)
2014 - Ken Whisenhunt, not fired (fired after week eight of 2015 season)

Washington Redskins:

2009 - Jim Zorn, fired
2013 - Mike Shanahan, fired
2014 - Jay Gruden, not fired (first season as head coach)

going into this year I thought 6-7 would allow him to keep his job because of our good start last year ... this year I just don't see the progress that we would have hoped (especially on the defensive side of the ball)

I'd say he'd have to split with Pittsburgh, beat Baltimore and SF and KC

So 6 wins would probably keep his job

How many wins does Pet need to keep his job? I don't know.

What I DO know is constantly firing head coaches has gotten us no where.

1 1/2 years after taking over the job, people are talking about firing him? Please. Haven't we washed, rinsed, and repeated enough?

The list I provided shows that if a coach has a season like Pettine is going to end up having, then he probably will just be fired soon after that anyway.

i'd say if we go 3-3, 4-2 in the division, he keeps his job.

so far we are 1-1

Neat.

And what I'm saying is if you give a coach a year and a half to turn things around (hey, last year was looking pretty good at this point in the season).........but, if a coach is given a year and a half to turn things around and if he doesn't, you fire him? Well, you get what the Browns now have.

Wash, rinse, repeat.

We could have a coach that was 1/3 Jesus Christ, 1/3 Bill Bellichek, 1/3 Paul Brown.......it wouldn't change in a year and a half. (unless Jezus went all "miracle" on us)

Build a team. To build a team, you can't be changing schemes, coaches, oc's, etc. every 2 years.

I didn't say fire him now. But if Pettine ends up with four wins or less, history shows he will most likely be fired. And it will probably be the right move.

So we can try to hire the next available coach? Yeah, If I'm an up and comer, I'll gladly sign with the Browns so that I can also be fired after 2 years, and have my name sullied after 1 1/2 years.

I bet the list of candidates is long, right?

The list of candidates will have a better chance of success than Mike Pettine.

You are suggesting that we go through the motions with a coach, that probably isn't going to be good, so that in a few years a new guy might like us.

You are suggesting that a new coach, an established coach, would be interested in the Browns job based on.............? What? Being fired in 2 years?

You seem to advocate keeping a regime who is going backwards.

Two drafts, two FA signing periods, and they're going backwards.

I'm all for continuity if you're seeing growth and progress. Nobody is seeing that.

Wonderful. Let's blow it up and start over. Again. And again. And again.

You appear to advocate "yea, let's get the new shiny coach", even though a new shiny coach won't come here with the history we have of firing coaches every 2 years.

But yeah, let's try the new coach one more time. Maybe we can add in a new oc, that changes everything.. I bet we could add in a new DC that changes our D yet again.

It should work, this time, right?

You seem to advocate change for the sake of change. That's just dumb. If I were an up and coming coach, due to people like you and the Browns history, I'd sit this job out. If you had any brains, you would too.

And you are advocating not changing for the sake of not changing (when we have evidence that the coach is not good).

yeah, okay, I know nothing.

Let's get a new coach. Hire........uh, who the hell would want to come here again? Oh, that's right, just get someone new so the fan base can get all excited again.

Wash, rinse, repeat ad nauseum.

Just keeps going and going and going.

So how long is long enough?

All I know is this:

I truly believe that Haslam will find it incredibly difficult to hire a quality head coach if he fires his 3rd head coach in 4 years.

Who, besides a guy who is a young coordinator who figures "what the heck, maybe it'll work and I'll be a legend" is going to anchor their legacy here under those circumstances?

If Pettine is fired, we'll be right back to a coordinator for head coach ..... and right back into the learning process.

I might be in the minority here, but canning him this off-season shouldn't be an option regardless. Give him another year before restarting yet again.

Maybe more than a year and a half? You suppose? I mean, really, what has firing coach after coach after 2 years done for us????????????????? Answer that, please.

What has changing scheme after 2 years done for us? Answer that, please.

Change the O, the head coach, the oc. Change the d, the scheme. Every 2 years?

Please. Look at the proof. It amounts to "start over and we'll try to get the players......but, if you don't turn it around within 1 1/2 years, we'll fire you. So, good luck."

It's just dumb.

I have no idea and this is one season where I'm really not sure how I feel about it. Every other season before this one I remember having a pretty strong opinion on whether I wanted the coach to stay or go... this one, maybe it's apathy, but I just don't know.. I won't be surprised either way.

I don't see any hope an experienced GM and HC signs with Haslam. Besides Miami and Detroit, with better rosters, will attract the better options.

It'll be another training expedition. We fans must hope Haslam, on his third attempt, will somehow discover the correct formula none of the other teams looking won't. To me, I see "blind luck" the only chance. If the new guys are not exceptionally higher, what has Haslam gained rebuilding the FO and flipping the roster?

Well, I think you're right, bugs, unless Manning comes here as President, or whatever title. That perhaps would attract some that may otherwise have passed on us....

I agree - no way should he be fired...farmer maybe... Not coach....

I could handle a year or two of going backwards if I saw the path forward being developed but in this case I don't. I see a whole bunch of wasted draft picks that should be growing into our foundation going forward... but those guys are either already cut, traded, or can't beat out the UDFAs or aging veterans in front of them...

I say you give pet and farmer have 2 more full seasons.

We have to show our organization will give coaches a chance to build up players for their systems. They are both having growing pains right now. They are learning what works and doesn't work. It takes time.

What I do want to see is Pet go back to putting his focus on the defense instead of handing it out to his buddy so much.

What is interesting people are sticking it to Farmer for his draft and giving Pettine a pardon. What if it is more like Farmer made the right choice, but Pettine and his staff failed to coach up? Looking at the all draft picks last two years has any elevated their play?

I'm not saying Pettin and/or Farmer need to go. I simply question why people think Farmer is the problem and Pettine has proven something.

I think that both have to get at least one more year. This job is a massive undertaking. It is a matter of completely changing the entire mentality of the entire organization.

I've read a lot of comments where folks are saying that Pet is learning how to be a HC...if that is in fact the case, then you have to give him 3 more years. You knew going in then that he was a Rookie coach. We just changed the OC in his next year. Keep this group together for the next 3 years and see where we are.

Do guys play hard and not quit? Do they come out ready to play? are the players being utilized correctly within the schemes? Do we lose due to lack of talent? Would another rookie coach have less wins?

If all those are Yes, then it would seem that Pet should stay. If you say no to them, then maybe he should not.

Regardless, what is the measure used to determine if the coaching staff stays? Wins or losses? Team growth - unity - collaboration?

Finally, project ahead 2...what are the realistic expeditions that we should be looking for, assuming this staff stays together..including if we draft a first round QB next year ['cause if we do not much of a chance we will have a great record]...

I do seem to flip/flop on the idea of giving the group another 2 years right after each Sunday game though...

Do you really believe that crap? Have you watched any of those guys play?

Then it's not just Pettine, its coordinators, positions coaches, etc that are all screw ups. It's a little easier to believe the GM is just picking poor players. Plus, if Farmer still believed in these guys, then he wouldn't be cutting or trading them away, like Mayle and West.. and if there is any belief that what you are saying is true, then we will find out because Farmer can fire Pettine, Pettine can't fire Farmer...

And I don't think people are giving Pettine a pass per-se.. but if you believe Farmer is giving him crap to work with, then it's hard to grade Pettine...

No. But, name the players who stepped up under Pettine.

Is it easier to say Farmer screwed up on every FA and draft pick? Is it not even worth a thought?

It is definitely worth a thought.. and is also why I usually laugh at the discussion that the whole problem is THIS guy or THAT guy.. it takes a whole bunch of people all on the same page, all doing their jobs, to win in the NFL... usually when it happens, 1 or 2 guys get the credit but, in fact, it's the result of many people...

So last year you gave all the credit to Shanny i.e., coaching.

This year you give all the blame to Farmer and none to coaching. Interesting. One might conclude its a personal vendetta against Farmer ...the same type of thing you blast others for having with Manziel.

Your way over the top with your Farmer bashing. Not only that, it's obvious Pettine is a bigger problem. 2-12 in his last 14. Even a decent coach could get better production with a less talented team than that. The Browns biggest issue is they can't get off the field on third down no matter down and distance, even when their best corner is targeted. That isn't on Farmer. Not even close.

But keep on keeping on.

I agree. I think the whole problem revolves around experience and lack of continuity. Continuity is not just on players it applies to the front office as well. This origination is building. It takes time establishing especially using rookies. As for the front office, it will take several attempts analyzing/getting proper staff in place who make best decisions. It takes time for rookie head coaches to find the correct staff who makes it work. After all it is what rookies do...make mistakes. Big question is how well they correct their mistakes. How do fans feel? Two years enough?

Not sure if you are reading the other threads, but Vers is very willing to sell out and go get Saban... make him coach and give him full roster control.

He might be hard on Farmer, but he's willing to cut Pettine lose in a heartbeat as well for a better alternative.

Why must you drill someone for making an opinion statement? Are you not giving an opinion just like Vers?

Vers makes valid points why Farmer is the issue. Pettine could easily be the problem too. In the end, who really knows. The end result is this team won 2 games out of 9...not good.

What the hell are you talking about?

I gave "all the credit to Shanny?" Prove that. You are one of the guys on here that are more interested in picking a fight than learning. I never said any such thing!

I am not giving any blame to the coaching? LMAO.........I was the first guy on here ripping on the coaching. I have complained about our defensive scheme. I was the first one to say to play JM. I have complained about not running the ball. WTF are you talking about?

At this point, I don't even care that much if you keep Farmer and fire Pet. I'll be gone you will be happy.

Again, I don't have him fired right now. But if he finishes 2-14, history is not on his side. He's toast.

Thanks bugs and DC.

This place is so freaking stupid. It's always about personalities rather than just football talk.

I'm getting real tired of it.................

It saddens me that great posters like Diam, DnD, Toad, Attack, Kash, etc rarely--if ever--post here anymore. I know that ddub can't stand the new breed, either. It's hard to even carry on a conversation on here. It's about personalities. Not football.

This is perfect.

You called me dumb yesterday because I shared a different opinion of Bridgewater than you.

I was giving a football opinion. Nothing more, nothing less.

So what exactly are you getting tired of? You want to talk football. I was talking football. And you called me dumb. I didn't really care. I thought it was kind of funny.

YTown, who is fascinated with stats beyond reasonableness but is still talking football ...and you blast him as well.

So what exactly again are you tired of?

I thought you wanted to learn. I thought you wanted to talk football.