DawgTalkers.net Forums DawgTalk Everything Else... Christian evangelists claim Starbucks fanned 'war on Christmas' with minimalist holiday red coffee cups

august 22? oddly specific. and a day after my birthday.

/tinfoil hat. i'm jesus.

there's nothing wrong with it. i never said that. what i said was i don't understand the outrage over something that never was their holiday in the first place.

personally, i call it christmas, saying happy holidays just sounds weird to me. just grew up saying it.

but what it all boils down to is this: who freaking cares? i'm trying to get those black friday deals, don't care what starbucks does. their hot cocoa is still on point.

i feel you. it's not my intent to piss you guys off with religion...that much.

there's no muslims on here for me to blast, either. so they've been regulated to my fam on FB.

its just annoying hearing how the majority demographic somehow feels persecuted over SOMETHING every freaking year. there's always something they feel we're at "War" over.

The Romans actually used pagan customs to further their empire.

To gain power and expand their empire, they adopted pagan customs to get the pagans to join in the Roman empire. Nothing more than a power grab that had nothing to do with Christianity.

Christians today demand to continue to observe these pagan customs such as the Christmas tree, the Yule log, Easter Sunday Sunrise worship, the Easter bunny and the egg.



The Bible makes it clear that the Christmas tree is a heathen custom. Yet Christians turn their heads away. It's why I do consider myself a Christian, yet have no use for organized religion. For the most part, it's a farce.

And someone needs to give them a math lesson. If Christ was crucified on a Friday, which clearly is the case, he could not have risen from the dead on Sunday at sunrise.

Friday afternoon until Sunday morning is not three days and three nights no matter what kind of math you use.

Hmmmm, Interesting Thread.

Does Starbucks happen to have a Flag?

Hmmmmmm.

I wouldn't say they are extremely persecuted or anything. But it is kind of a bummer to be a majority and not have society reflect that 100%.

The reality is that diversity is kind of a bummer. Everyone being on board with the same beliefs and opinions feels nice. And being in a culture that doesn't strongly reflect your beliefs is kind of a bummer for everyone involved. Homogeneity and in-group preference feels nice to most people.

I have no problems with Christians wishing society was very christian in all aspects, I can understand how that sounds pretty awesome if you're a christian and it is pretty obnoxious to be losing that sense of community. Everyone being on the same page feels pretty sweet, and losing that inch by inch is pretty unpleasant for Christians.

Hardly go to Starbucks. As really would not have a wing and a prayer in the fight.

I disagree. As a strong committed Christian, I welcome diversity in thought, belief, and lifestyle. It is indeed vast differences that make us America. My concern enters the equation when others attempt to tell me I cannot pray after a football game, set up a nativity or pray when and where I choose quietly and without infringing upon the rights of others.

More importantly, Christians are losing nothing. That is the beauty of Christianity. Nobody, EVER, anywhere can remove my God from my life. NOBODY.....EVER. The only person that can ever do that is me. Furthermore, that will never happen! I will always attend church, pray and, in doing so, feel a peace in my life that I am blessed to know. Others may feel as they do. That will never change me. That, my friend, is the beauty of how I choose to live my life as a Christian.

I have no problems with that. I think being a Christian is strongly around your personal life, family, community, and church. My contention is that it'd be nice as a Christian if everyone was Christian and society reflected that. Merry Christmases, god bless you's, and a general sense of everyone agreeing would be nice. It isn't the end of the world to not have that, but I can appreciate how not having that kind of stinks.

It's not that Starbucks not being Christian is the end of the world and intolerable. Just that'd be nice for Christians if everyone was Christian and society strongly reflected that. Just my take on things.

All good.

Just think being Christian does not give us carte blanche to judge others as many chose to do. Personally, I have no issue with Starbucks. That part of this is silly.

I rather enjoy the diversity that represents this country. The Starbucks thing is a non issue when you really live Christianity.

I've been inside a starbucks twice in my life. I personally have never spent a penny there.

I like coffee. For me, coffee is.......get this: coffee. Black. No cream, no sugar. I make my coffee at home, or, if I'm on the road, I'll get black coffee,plain - no flavor added, at a gas station.

I don't need $5-$8 latte mocha grandes.

I have some friends that, apparently, think "going to starbucks" is the beginning of a night out. OR, they think it makes them look sophisticated, and all "trend setting" and what not.

As far as what starbucks puts on their cups? I simply could not care less. I don't need a barista to get a good cup of coffee. (good cup of coffee for me, that is) If others want to spend ungodly amounts on sugar, cream, foam, whipped cream, etc - good for them.

That is not what that verse means. That verse was from way before there was any such thing as a Christmas Tree, and long before Christ was born.

That verse is talking about taking a tree and shaping it into the form of an idol, and adorning it with silver and gold.

The NIV is probably more clear:

Jeremiah 10:1-6 - God and Idols - Hear what the LORD says - Bible Gateway
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Jeremiah%2010:1-6

Hear what the Lord says to you, people of Israel. 2 This is what the Lord says:

“Do not learn the ways of the nations
or be terrified by signs in the heavens,
though the nations are terrified by them.
3 For the practices of the peoples are worthless;
they cut a tree out of the forest,
and a craftsman shapes it with his chisel.
4 They adorn it with silver and gold;
they fasten it with hammer and nails
so it will not totter.
5 Like a scarecrow in a cucumber field,
their idols cannot speak;
they must be carried
because they cannot walk.
Do not fear them;
they can do no harm
nor can they do any good.”
6 No one is like you, Lord;
you are great,
and your name is mighty in power.

This verse speaks of idols, not Christmas Trees.

I am a Christian, and as a Christian, I believe in the Bible, and the teachings of Jesus Christ.

Jesus said that there is only 1 way to heaven, and that is through Him.

If I am a Christian, and if I believe in the Bible, then I cannot accept others beliefs, because in doing so I am telling them that they should be condemned, and I should do nothing to save them. Worse, i am telling them that I should stand idly by as they are condemned in the interest of diversity.

I do not think that is what Jesus would want us to do.

Jesus said to pick up our crosses and follow Him. If we are Christians, then this is our command from our Lord, Jesus Christ. Not once did Jesus tell someone that it was fine that they continue to sin, and that God would allow such a person into heaven in the interest of diversity. Rather the opposite is true. We are all sinners, but only those who are forgiven through the blood sacrifice of Jesus Christ are forgiven. If we are Christians, then we have to believe this, because this is what the Bible teaches. This is what we celebrate when we take Communion .... the body of Christ, broken for us, and the blood of Christ, spilled for us. This sacrifice is what makes heaven possible for us, because without it, we are deserving of hell. When we say that we should "tolerate" other religions, what we are really saying is that we should let those people go to hell ...because if we are Christians, then our beliefs dictate that this is what has to happen.

and here we go.....

Oh, and back to the topic of this thread ..... I could not care less what Starbucks chooses to put on their cups. I don't drink coffee, so I will never buy anything from them anyway. Regardless, if a place chooses to not use any holiday decorations, that's fine. I really don't worry about it. I have enough to think about in my own life to worry about this kind of stuff.

What, are you gonna go off on how pot should be legal so you don't have to worry about being arrested?

Starbucks should declare themselves a sanctuary store where you can smoke pot legally.

It would probably be HUGE for business. Pot heads would love it, illegals would never leave the store..........it's win for starbucks.

We don't "let" anyone do anything. They make their choices for themselves. If Starbucks wants to put a bearded naked woman on their cups...so be it. Those who are not Christian don't understand they will go to hell. They make their own choices. That's OK with me and I am a Christian. You or no one else can take that away from me. I am way too busy in my life to worry about cups at Starbucks.

Ytown, you forgot more about the bible than I will ever know. I respect that. However, I will not judge others......not even Starbucks. Sorry!

Perhaps I misunderstood what you wrote, and if so, then I apologize.

It seemed like you were saying that anything anyone wanted to do should be accepted in the interests of "diversity". Maybe I just misread. I have been really sick today, so that is entirely possible. If so, then I am deeply sorry.

Also I think it's important for my fellow Christians to realize this fact that my new Pastor preached about this Sunday as well:

It doesn't matter what political party you support. What political beliefs you believe in. They're not going to help you judgement day. The debates going on right now have been going on for a VERY long time. Abortion has been allowed for 50 years. That's under guys like Reagan and Bush. Christianity has been out of schools for a very long time now, once again, under different administrations. Gay marriage has always been a hot debate. It's not some new Obama thing as much as a lot of Christians like to believe. That man is NOT the reason why our country is the way that it is. He's not the "anti-Christ." At the end of the day, he's just a man and no man is going to decide where you go in the after life. That's on YOU.

I feel like as Christians we've looked for a scapegoat and a excuse for us not to be open about our faith because it goes against a social trend.

Starbucks is a private company (I assume) with a very high profile public appeal.

My faith is not weak, I thought I mentioned that I don't care what Starbucks does.. doesn't impact my faith at all.

In fact, I really like this piece...

STARBUCKS, RED CUPS, AND THE GRACE OF BEING OFFENDED
POSTED BY PTSBLOG IN MINISTRY | PROTESTANT SPIRITUALITY | THEOLOGICAL REFLECTION

While the Christian right and the left are hashing it out over Twitter, arguing about the merits and demerits of Starbucks’s new inclusive red cups, I want to press pause to ask the question: Is there anything this episode can teach us about the Christian spiritual life?

The answer, I believe, is yes. We can learn the grace of being offended.

The mechanism of offense often works like this: I have an image of myself I seek to maintain. I have carefully manicured this image for so long I think it’s the real me. A circumstance presents a challenge to this image—a critique, a denial, a slight. Since it’s too painful for me to use this challenge as an opportunity for growth and self-discovery, I choose instead to take offense. I defend the image.

Some Christians cling to an image of Christianity as established, as deserving special recognition. It’s not true, and hasn’t been for a long time, but the image is out there. When places like Wal-Mart and Starbucks and the courthouse that won’t display a crèche refuse to recognize our image of preeminence and our delusions of entitlement, we have no choice but to take offense.

Q: What else can we do?

A: Pay attention.

For the last several weeks I’ve been teaching an introduction to Christian spiritual formation course to first year seminarians. They will tell you that a constant theme is paying attention to your life. Notice the ups and downs, how you habitually react in situations. Attending to these things will teach you much about yourself.

This is important because Christian thinkers through the ages have affirmed that knowledge of God and knowledge of self, go hand-in-hand.

If the Christians offended by Starbucks were in my class, I would tell them to pause before they respond, take out their journals, and question this feeling of offense: Why do you feel slighted when a corporation doesn’t recognize your faith? Where does the sense of entitlement come from?

Perhaps most importantly: What image of yourself is being challenged by this slight? And why do you feel the need to defend it?

These questions are useful, whoever has offended you. Whether it’s Starbucks or a spouse or a student—when we notice our habits of getting offended, we can also recognize God’s grace in the moment often inviting us to let go of those false notions of entitlement and prerogative and privilege, and calling us to quit defending and simply live as truthfully and compassionately as we can.

I’m not saying never be offended. I am saying whenever you are offended, learn from it. Only then can we move beyond the knee-jerk reactivity in our relationships (even in our relationship with our go-to caffeine provider) and move to the true freedom that Christ offers.

St. Ignatius of Loyola, the 16th century founder of the Jesuits, more than anyone has schooled us in how to be attentive to God’s grace working through our lives—through our hopes and fears, dreams and anxieties. The goal, for Ignatius, is liberty and availability: to be increasingly free from the bondage of reactivity so I can be available to respond to the movement of the Holy Spirit in my life.

More often than not, taking offense can show us a place in our lives where we are not free, but still captive to an image of ourselves we are tenaciously clinging to.

But as Jesus knew, and as Ignatius knew, and as those people who live with us when we feel offended know, that’s no way to live.

As followers of the One who let go of his divine prerogatives and entitlements, let us learn the grace of being offended, grace that wants to help us know the truth of who we are so that we can be free indeed.

Free enough, even, to drink coffee out of a red cup.

The Rev. Dr. L. Roger Owens is associate professor of leadership and ministry at Pittsburgh Theological Seminary and teaches courses in the MDiv, Doctor of Ministry, and Continuing Education programs. Before coming to PTS he served urban and rural churches for eight years in North Carolina as co-pastor with his wife Ginger. He has written multiple books including The Shape of Participation: A Theology of Church Practices which was called “this decades best work in ecclesiology” by The Christian Century.

[url=http://www.pts.edu/blog/][/url]

In fact, it highlights something I've said for a long time. If you find yourself offended a lot, it says more about YOU than it does anybody else.

what the hell are you talking about?

what does pot have to do with this topic? do you need to take some of my adderal? you can't stay on topic worth a damn, dude. ADD.

I went to Starbucks to find coffee.
I went to my Bible to find Jesus.
I then enjoyed my coffee with Jesus.
Everything is as it should be. God bless you all.

Wrong again bud.

And your coffee was more expensive than your Bible...

Emperor Constantine legalized Christianity in 325AD at the council of Nicea. This is also where they determined the content of the Bible, as we know the Catholic version today.

Yes, the Christians used the same holidays as the pagan religions in Europe as they pushed farther north, but just about every religion in the world have spring celebrations (Easter, Passover, Oestera, Holi, Higan and more), summer (Solstice, Dragon Boat Fest, Corpus Christi, Buddha Day), Fall (Rosh Hashana, Higan, Samhain, All Saints, Ethiopian new years), and winter (Yule, Christmas, Chanukah, Ganjitsu), so I really can't consider the Christians as taking holidays. Most people celebrate these holidays across the world. The major holidays are more determined by astronomy than religious reasons.

I've patronized Starbucks exactly twice.
Both times were on I-80/90... on my way to a Browns game.
Both times... the Browns lost.

Starbucks sux... and it has nothing to do with their product or in what vessel it's served.

Starbucks is worse than some 'Satanic assault on Christianity'...
Starbucks is an assault on 'Brownsanity.'

...and that's an affront that is unforgivable.



.02

Go back and read slowly...I realize you got your giddy progressive panties in a bunch thinking "I have a gotcha moment"....but he did say it was a horrifically bad example.

i don't understand why people think call somebody a progressive is a bad thing.

Progressivism: a broad philosophy based on the Idea of Progress, which asserts that advancement in science, technology, economic development, and social organization are vital to improve the human condition

i'll be that all day.

Haven't read any of this yet but I went to Starbucks this morning on campus because I was dragging and needed a pick me up. I am so upset by Starbucks removing Merry Christmas from their cups. Wait a second, the split second that I walked in, it looked like Christmas vomited everywhere. There was a lot of festive holiday signage, and plenty of references in said signage of Joy and Christmas. Yup, they are certainly declaring a war on Christmas....especially with that Christmas Blend of coffee they sell.

In all actuality, I can't recall in recent times there ever being Merry Christmas on the cups, they always seemed to have just some form of winter theme if I recall correctly.

Plus you know, their logo is still green and the cups are red. I wonder what those two colors could possibly represent.

Some people just like to hear their own voices complaining just for the sake of complaining.

It's such a ridiculous concept you almost have to wonder if Starbucks is ginning this up themselves for the free publicity.

would it surprise you if this boosted their sales?

Would you like an actual lengthy explanation?

If you want to understand politics, there is good science on brain differences that explain most of the issues at hand.

These are evolutionary. It helps to view the differences in all culture and all time periods and not just the current era.

Being conservative means maintaining what has worked in the past in your culture. Life is predictable and sustainable. Your children will survive and reproduce. Progress is slowed, but is predictable and consistent.

Being progressive means you'll have successes and failures. Should we interact with the tribe next door? This either benefits us or kills us. Should we try this new food / drug / plant? This either benefits us or kills us. Should we try this different model of social organization or economic policy? This either benefits us or kills us.

The flipside of progress is the failures and risks involved. A society which is open to a certain number of progressives is good. They receive the rewards of their risk taking when it succeeds and accept the consequences when their risk taking fails. The conservatives maintain stability within the society and slowly gain benefits from the progressives who took risks.

I could go all day. Both have their benefits. The issues comes when conservatives are forced to support progressive decisions (and the risks involved) or when progressives aren't permitted to take risks by a controlling conservative culture (sacrificing their potential growth and success).

thanks for the explanation.

which is why i embrace it more now. it just makes sense to me.

PT Barnum said there's a sucker born every minute.

To me that's the crowd Starbucks is appealing to. Anyone that pays $5 for a cup of coffee deserves to be taken to the cleaners.

Totally man. You are biologically a progressive. It is funny to watch debates sometimes. It's like people with two different heights debating the best height. There isn't always a middle ground to be achieved.

The trick to finding peace with conservatives and progressives is freedom.

Conservatives shouldn't be forced to pay for the risks of progressivism. And progressives shouldn't be limited in their freedom to take risks that primarily effect them. Democracy is a pain in the butt since both parties struggle to get their way. The original constitution was pretty sweet about this with a lot of freedoms to take risks without forcing everyone to take on the costs of those risks.

It wouldn't surprise me at all if businesses at least consider hiring people for very carefully planned "protests".

So I'm sitting here in lovely Charleston, SC this week and a FB post gave me an idea... on the corner of Calhoun and St. Phillips in downtown Charleston is a Chick-Fil-A.. across from it is a Starbucks...

So I went in and bought a chicken sandwich from the evil abusive Christian folks... then walked across and bought a cup of coffee from the evil Christmas-killing Starbucks folks... and I took them up to Marion Park and gave them to a homeless guy. He was not offended by either.. and do you know why? Because he has real problems.